[BSDcert] Re: BSDCert Digest, Vol 3, Issue 25
Sreenath G
sreegchn at gmail.com
Thu Mar 31 04:53:05 EST 2005
Hi all,
My personal openion is that, the certification
should worth some thing
for the employer(Organization) who has implemented BSD.Also there is
another important thing to remember, that is a candidate taking the
certification should
find some job in the market.Because certifications are more or less a sign of
knowledge,capability and talent.These 3 things are the impotant ones.But there
are other factors such as interest,scope of job affecting the value of a career.
So my openion is to some kind of standardiation for the certification.
I also have
the openion that the certification to be more lab oriented than theory.
thanks
Sreenath.G
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:46:52 -0500 (EST),
bsdcert-request at lists.nycbug.org <bsdcert-request at lists.nycbug.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re[2]: [BSDcert] Disclosure of test questions (Andrei Buzoianu)
> 2. Re: Disclosure of test questions (Freddie Cash)
> 3. Re: the study material question (Ian Morrison)
> 4. Re: the study material question (Ye Wei)
> 5. Re: the study material question (Jeremy C. Reed)
> 6. Re: the study material question (George R.)
> 7. Re: Disclosure of test questions (Sancho2k.net Lists)
> 8. Re: the study material question (Nikolas Britton)
> 9. Re: the study material question (Siju George)
> 10. Re: BSD books for Asian countries (Siju George)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:53:15 +0300
> From: Andrei Buzoianu <andreibuzoianu at openbsd.org.ro>
> Subject: Re[2]: [BSDcert] Disclosure of test questions
> To: "Lucas" <bsdcertmail at mindrules.net>
> Cc: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <513603873.20050331015315 at openbsd.org.ro>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> > But when logging in remotely you could still have help from someone.
> > I doubt an employer would care much about a certification that you
> > could get from home... Don't get me wrong, I don't like that, but I
> > think it's true.
>
> > Also, in order for the certification not to be the dreaded 'toiletpaper',
> > shouldn't there be a more practical part? I vagely remember reading about
> > the RHCE certification, didn't that include having to fix real problems, on
> > wich you could use any man-pages and faqs, but had to fix it in a time-limit?
> > And if that wasn't the RHCE, isn't it a good idea anyway :-)
>
> > Out of curiosity, what kind of price do you think is reasonable? I really
> > find that hard to think about, any opinions here?
>
> > Lucas
>
> You can still get help even in a time-limit enviroment. Maybe some
> form of testing centers? Like trusted people arround the world? Just
> mind surfing ...
>
> --
> Andrei
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:01:48 -0800
> From: Freddie Cash <fcash-ml at sd73.bc.ca>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Disclosure of test questions
> To: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <200503301501.50598.fcash-ml at sd73.bc.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On March 30, 2005 02:43 pm, Lucas wrote:
> > But when logging in remotely you could still have help from someone.
> > I doubt an employer would care much about a certification that you
> > could get from home... Don't get me wrong, I don't like that, but I
> > think it's true.
>
> > Also, in order for the certification not to be the dreaded
> > 'toiletpaper', shouldn't there be a more practical part? I vagely
> > remember reading about the RHCE certification, didn't that include
> > having to fix real problems, on wich you could use any man-pages and
> > faqs, but had to fix it in a time-limit? And if that wasn't the RHCE,
> > isn't it a good idea anyway :-)
>
> Yes, that's the RHCE. Our IT Analyst did that one recently (2003) in
> Vancouver. They have a lab setup with a bunch of computers. These
> computers are imaged using the RedHat kickstart setup. The computer is
> imaged with something broken somewhere, and you're given a short
> description of the symptoms. You have to fix the problem within a certain
> time. Once you are done, someone walks over, checks your solution, marks
> down the score, then runs a bunch of commands to re-image the computer
> with the next problem. And so on down the list. I believe you're given 2
> hours for the practical tests.
>
> He really liked the experience, and we now use a variation of this setup in
> our job interviews for IT positions.
>
> --
> Freddie Cash, CLCP CNCP Network Support / Helpdesk
> School District 73 (250) 377-4357
> fcash-ml at sd73.bc.ca
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:37:14 +0100
> From: Ian Morrison <ian at darq.net>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] the study material question
> To: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <20050330233714.GC23786 at elkcity.darq.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * Andrei Buzoianu <andreibuzoianu at openbsd.org.ro> [2005-03-30 22:42]:
>
> > Agree. Material-reviewing team is most needed too.
> > Seems to me this is going to be a good test on how much people are
> > willing to contribute.
>
> i think that as long as the project remains useful to individuals and
> the community at large, there'll be more than enough support. the big
> issue seems to be openness, and personally, i'm pretty cynical of
> psychometric tests - as has been pointed out its difficult to measure
> experience which is pretty much what we're trying to do). for me,
> although i'm pleased when an SA can do something, i'm a lot happier once
> they've documented it. perhaps there's some way of getting the first
> batch of students to help produce teaching materials, or having them
> create something more like a diary of what they've done and why.
> coursework is what i'm thinking of..
>
> it seems to me that learning how systems work is about iterating around
> problems, seeing them from multiple angles, and when your experience is
> documented and repeated, it very quickly becomes permanent and reusable
> in a host of other scenarios. and when that's happened enough, even
> when you've not got a clue about what's happened or what's wrong, you
> can quickly make a judgement and have a point to start fixing it from.
>
> lastly, i'm not convinced that the current forms of certification are
> that valuable in the trenches, when compared to constant exposure to
> incidents. provided that bsdcerts can show that it's approach produces
> great admins, any decent IT department will see that. there are already
> a lot of other established options for the conservative and more
> business goal orientated organisations and i think it would be a waste
> to do a "BSD RHCE" type of thing. we're potentially building a machine
> here, that sucks in mortals in one end and spits out guru's at the
> other. what do the guru's of tomorrow need to understand to save us from
> the clutches of brokenness?
>
> stay frosty,
>
> ian
> --
> [darq# ian at darq.net] thoroughly modern misfit
> [http://darq.net/#/] complete the puzzle : uid ---- day
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:10:45 +0800
> From: Ye Wei <szyewei at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] the study material question
> To: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <40a7eb9050330171063f70065 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I think we need a management team to make a plan.
> 1. Create core team.
> 2. Prepare the certificate guideline and consider which knowledge is
> necessary for different certificate level?
> 2. Choose the certificate test method.
> 3. Create material or test prepare team to prepare the material and test.
>
> And then we can start work actually. :-)
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:37:14 +0100, Ian Morrison <ian at darq.net> wrote:
> > * Andrei Buzoianu <andreibuzoianu at openbsd.org.ro> [2005-03-30 22:42]:
> >
> > > Agree. Material-reviewing team is most needed too.
> > > Seems to me this is going to be a good test on how much people are
> > > willing to contribute.
> >
> > i think that as long as the project remains useful to individuals and
> > the community at large, there'll be more than enough support. the big
> > issue seems to be openness, and personally, i'm pretty cynical of
> > psychometric tests - as has been pointed out its difficult to measure
> > experience which is pretty much what we're trying to do). for me,
> > although i'm pleased when an SA can do something, i'm a lot happier once
> > they've documented it. perhaps there's some way of getting the first
> > batch of students to help produce teaching materials, or having them
> > create something more like a diary of what they've done and why.
> > coursework is what i'm thinking of..
> >
> > it seems to me that learning how systems work is about iterating around
> > problems, seeing them from multiple angles, and when your experience is
> > documented and repeated, it very quickly becomes permanent and reusable
> > in a host of other scenarios. and when that's happened enough, even
> > when you've not got a clue about what's happened or what's wrong, you
> > can quickly make a judgement and have a point to start fixing it from.
> >
> > lastly, i'm not convinced that the current forms of certification are
> > that valuable in the trenches, when compared to constant exposure to
> > incidents. provided that bsdcerts can show that it's approach produces
> > great admins, any decent IT department will see that. there are already
> > a lot of other established options for the conservative and more
> > business goal orientated organisations and i think it would be a waste
> > to do a "BSD RHCE" type of thing. we're potentially building a machine
> > here, that sucks in mortals in one end and spits out guru's at the
> > other. what do the guru's of tomorrow need to understand to save us from
> > the clutches of brokenness?
> >
> > stay frosty,
> >
> > ian
> > --
> > [darq# ian at darq.net] thoroughly modern misfit
> > [http://darq.net/#/] complete the puzzle : uid ---- day
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BSDCert mailing list
> > BSDCert at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/bsdcert
> >
>
> --
> Regards,
> Ye Wei
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:20:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: "Jeremy C. Reed" <reed at reedmedia.net>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] the study material question
> To: Ye Wei <szyewei at gmail.com>
> Cc: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID:
> <Pine.LNX.4.43.0503301719200.15508-100000 at pilchuck.reedmedia.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Ye Wei wrote:
>
> > I think we need a management team to make a plan.
> > 1. Create core team.
>
> We agree. Please see the website and the news announcement.
>
> > 2. Prepare the certificate guideline and consider which knowledge is
> > necessary for different certificate level?
>
> Stay tuned. :)
>
> > 2. Choose the certificate test method.
> > 3. Create material or test prepare team to prepare the material and test.
> >
> > And then we can start work actually. :-)
>
> Jeremy C. Reed
>
> BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links
> http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:52:23 -0500
> From: "George R." <george at sddi.net>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] the study material question
> To: Ye Wei <szyewei at gmail.com>
> Cc: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <a164c9cbb28af4ec84feebc559be750a at sddi.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Mar 30, 2005, at 8:10 PM, Ye Wei wrote:
>
> > I think we need a management team to make a plan.
> > 1. Create core team.
>
> That we have. . . check out the www site:
>
> http://www.bsdcertification.org/about.htm
>
> > 2. Prepare the certificate guideline and consider which knowledge is
> > necessary for different certificate level?
> > 2. Choose the certificate test method.
> > 3. Create material or test prepare team to prepare the material and
> > test.
> >
> > And then we can start work actually. :-)
> >
>
> This is among a whole number of questions we've been discussing.
>
> We'd love to have feedback from you on these things. . .
>
> George
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:28:00 -0700
> From: "Sancho2k.net Lists" <lists at sancho2k.net>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] Disclosure of test questions
> To: David TAILLANDIER <david.taillandier at domainename.com>
> Cc: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <424B6030.5000102 at sancho2k.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> David TAILLANDIER wrote:
> >
> > If the BSD certification group is somewhat open, how do you plan to
> > create tests without people knowing the answers ?
> >
> > The tests then have to be prepared by trusted people, using a private
> > mailing list or website.
> >
> > Not only the answers have to remain secret. The questions have too.
> > Otherwise anyone can list the questions before taking the test, learn
> > the good answers and then go to pass the test without any real
> > knowledge. Just memory.
> >
> > In this case, the BSD certification group is not something 'open'
> > anymore.
>
> Why is that a problem in this respect? It makes perfect sense to me. A
> nonsense way to "close it up" in the manner which you are speaking is to
> make people first join a member's group for an annual fee, then charge
> an exhorbent rate for testing fees after a formal pre-test test
> screening, and then provide the only information about the tests or
> certification program through "official channels", and then require
> recertification every N years according to points earned at "certified"
> seminars, conferences, and training centers, again for an annual
> membership fee.
>
> Should the BSD certficiation group ever become this "not open", then
> I'll begin to worry. Protecting the integrity of the certification
> material from the public hardly seems a negative closing to me.
>
> DS
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:34:19 -0600
> From: Nikolas Britton <freebsd at nbritton.org>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] the study material question
> To: Mike Jackson <mjackson at barking-dog.net>
> Cc: BSDCert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <424B6FBB.8060906 at nbritton.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Mike Jackson wrote:
>
> >>> I would assume that the BSD Certification Group would have a deal
> >>> with one of the nationwide (international?) testing centers that
> >>> administer tests for other certifications, like Pearson VUE or
> >>> Prometric (they do the Microsoft certification tests).
> >>
> >>
> >> Ok a starting point, good. We could use one of those testing
> >> companies but are you willing to pony up the money, normally like
> >> $100 per test, to take the tests, I won't be and I think one of the
> >> goals of this project was to keep the costs as low as possible. I
> >> think we are going to have look at alternatives or create are own
> >> solution. I have a proposed solution that should work...... arrggg my
> >> ride is here so I have to go, I'll tell it later.
> >
> >
> > My impression of certifications is that the ones that hold weight with
> > employers are the ones that -- well, the ones that you have to shell
> > out cold, hard cash to prove that you're worthy of having it. Do
> > things like Brainbench certs carry any weight? I highly doubt it.
>
> I'm not looking to impress any employers, the main reason for me wanting
> to take them is to benchmark myself. If there anything like the MCSE
> series, 6 to 9? tests at $100+ each, I will NOT be taking them and will
> unsubscribe from the list. I don't see why we can't develop are own web
> enabled testing suite so virtually anyone can proctor a test, this would
> keep costs way down and get the tests out there today instead of
> tomorrow because it can grow exponentially. I'll finish writing up my
> idea on this concept so you guys can critique it in a day or two.
>
> Also, I don't think Pearson VUE, Prometric or whoever are global
> companys, being able to take this test anywhere in the world is one of
> the requirements set forth.
>
> long day, time for bed, later
> foobar
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:32:02 +0530
> From: Siju George <sgeorge.ml at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] the study material question
> To: Mark Stanislav <mstanisl at emich.edu>
> Cc: BSDCert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <b713df2c050330210257d46562 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:46:30 -0500, Mark Stanislav <mstanisl at emich.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > If these statements are actually true why is it not easy to just
> > > prepare a list of resources and give it along with the course outlines
> > > so that people can easilylocate them ? Again please note I am not
> > > suggesting creating new study materials although feel that it won't
> > > be a very bad Idea.
> > >
> >
> > It is that easy, and I would recommend that it is done on the web site.
> >
>
> Thats my opinion too :))
>
> --Siju
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:16:40 +0530
> From: Siju George <sgeorge.ml at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BSDcert] BSD books for Asian countries
> To: Ye Wei <szyewei at gmail.com>
> Cc: bsdcert at lists.nycbug.org
> Message-ID: <b713df2c05033022466a6ed302 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Ye,
>
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:01:53 +0800, Ye Wei <szyewei at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > I think BSDs has a bright future in China too.
> > More and more people know about the Open Source and BSDs. The
> > major reasons are the BSDs are free and BSD Licence is more free and
> > open than GPL.
> >
>
> Sure :))
>
> > We have very little books about BSDs in the bookstore.
> >
>
> I bought
>
> Squid: the Drfinitive Guide from
>
> http://www.shroffpublishers.com/
>
> Behind the book they have this writen
>
> "For sale in Indian Subcontinent ( India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri
> Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan ) and African Continent ( excluding Morocco,
> Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and the Republic of South Affrica)
> only. Illegal for sale outside of these countries"
>
> I don't know why China is left out.
>
> But chineese products come to India at a much cheaper rate. And I
> believe that chinese publishers also can have some type of tie-ups
> with publishers of BSD books just like
>
> http://www.shroffpublishers.com/
>
> did.
>
> kind regards
>
> Siju
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BSDCert mailing list
> BSDCert at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/bsdcert
>
> End of BSDCert Digest, Vol 3, Issue 25
> **************************************
>
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