<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Sent without help from A.I. | ' L ' | </div><div><br>On Jan 15, 2014, at 15:28, George Rosamond <<a href="mailto:george@ceetonetechnology.com">george@ceetonetechnology.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>Isaac (.ike) Levy:</span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>On January 15, 2014 11:21:56 AM EST, Dan Cross <<a href="mailto:crossd@gmail.com">crossd@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 2:44 AM, Brian Callahan <<a href="mailto:bcallah@devio.us">bcallah@devio.us</a>> wrote:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>For those of you not subscribed to the OpenBSD misc@ list, here's a</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>thread you should read, especially if you use OpenBSD:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723&w=2">http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=138730448307723&w=2</a></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Please read the whole thread.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I read the whole thing. I will not be donating.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Theo really comes off in poor form, throwing sarcasm and dismissal at</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>most</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>of the suggestions ("How dare you suggest we take our precious</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>developers'</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>time to do something to save our precious project! Don't we do enough?"</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span> No, clearly you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be in this boat.)</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Some good points were raised about architecture support; other</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>suggestions</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>were made. Theo's snarky responses, appeal to authority</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>justifications and</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>total unwillingness to even consider changes convinced me not to donate.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>If you're using OpenBSD, or using one of our sub-projects (which you all</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>are), please think long and hard before dismissing that thread. We</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>really</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>do need the funding.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>If you really need the funding, perhaps you could convince the project</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>leader not to be such a jerk? At least not in public? You may find</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>money</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>is more forthcoming then.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>If you work in or know someone in a company that uses OpenBSD (or any</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>subprojects) or just one that likes to toss some money the way of open</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>source projects, please send that thread their way as well.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'll be frank: a subset of the sub-projects are what is important, not</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>OpenBSD itself. OpenBSD seems to slide further and further from overall</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>relevance with each release. If OpenBSD fails, then the communities that</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>care about the sub-projects will pick them up and carry them forward. Or</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>not; but for OpenBSD itself? Well, nobody mourns the death of PR1ME.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>Everything helps.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>I wonder if they've ever stopped to wonder WHY funding seems to be</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>shrinking. Perhaps that would be step 1. Step 2 would be to try and</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>figure out how to mitigate some of the costs of the project. Step 3</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>would</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>be to solicit funds. But when one's hand is out holding one's hat,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>insulting the very people one is seeking assistance from is unlikely</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>to be</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span>profitable.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><span> - Dan C.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Your opinion and stance feels pretty rational Dan, if the project were</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>truly a community run effort.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>Regarding "insulting" users? I feel you there. But, if that is</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>unacceptable, then OpenBSD dev lists aren't for you :) I haven't been</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>on misc@ in a decade, but that post is nothing, comparied to what I</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>remember.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>OpenBSD is not run by the users.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>We all may feel invested in it, but at the end of the day, it's not our</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>decision what to do. I for one am grateful for this stance: years ago,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>some issues in OpenBSD land, (binary blobs), I used to waffle on- and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>critized the project for being so hard about. Over the years, I changed</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>my tune- and this year, thanks to S n o w d e n, it's apparent that *no*</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>project is taking issues like binary blobs far enough :)</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>So, I find Theo's hard stance here refreshing. Things like which</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>architectures to support, or other technical and organizational issues</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>are just not a "user community" decision.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I think Theo should even be lauded for his directness here- "Here's what</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>we're doing, we're looking for help from people who like what we're</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>doing, and btw the world can all have/fork/do whatever you want with our</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>work"</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>And, regarding funding drying up- this happens over the years for</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>*every* open source project, and it's certainly happened to all the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>*BSD's in this young century. I'm not sure it's a sign that they need</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>to change much in the project itself :)</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>-- </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>With that, as a primarily FreeBSD user, I'm proud to make a contribution</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>today.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>So glad this didn't turn into an online slugfest...</span><br><span></span><br><span>I'm confused by the post though, Dan. Most open source devs were not</span><br><span>trained in marketing, publicity, whatever.</span><br><span></span><br><span>But I disagree with Ike... it is very typical of community-run efforts.</span><br><span> They are not driven by share prices and "packaging."</span><br><span></span><br><span>To expect them to have a fully polished operation, which asks money for</span><br><span>the same reasons, essentially, in a different way, is a bit naive.</span><br><span></span><br><span>If you want to "give" money to operations directly or indirectly which</span><br><span>ask nicely and do, er, messed up things with it, as opposed to giving</span><br><span>money to people who ask for it in more crude ways but do things you</span><br><span>like, then I think you may be confusing form and substance.</span><br><span></span><br><span>And long live substance, IMO.</span><br><span></span><br><span>g</span><br><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>talk mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:talk@lists.nycbug.org">talk@lists.nycbug.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk">http://www.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk</a></span><br></div></blockquote><br><div>It looks like someone saved the day. </div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/01/19/romanian-billionaire-saves-openbsd/">http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/01/19/romanian-billionaire-saves-openbsd/</a> (I did not check the veracity of this page.)</div></body></html>