From bschonhorst  Tue Jun  1 09:21:20 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:21:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN?
In-Reply-To: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost>
References: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost>
Message-ID: <9274DFB0-B3CE-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>


On May 28, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> Do you know someone at MSN?
>
> My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically.
> Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop.  I
> suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged
> out of MSN Messenger.

Dan-

I have a friend who works with MSN chat services.  Its probably a long 
shot, but I'll see if he has any ideas.

-Brad
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From bschonhorst  Tue Jun  1 09:29:55 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:29:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN?
In-Reply-To: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost>
References: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost>
Message-ID: <C53BD94E-B3CF-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>


On May 28, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> Do you know someone at MSN?
>
> My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically.
> Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop.  I
> suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged
> out of MSN Messenger.
>

As I just emailed my buddy at MSN, I had another thought.  If no better 
options come up, you could try to get the ip address he is using.  I 
don't use MSN but with AIM I believe you can sniff the IP address if 
you send a file over the messenger.  If you are just chatting, you only 
get the IP of AOL's chat relay, but sending a file is supposed to go 
direct.  So, you'd need a second account, and a sniffer.  Then you 
could send your old account a picture or something and grap the ip that 
way....
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From mikel.king  Tue Jun  1 09:42:22 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:42:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt
In-Reply-To: <D51915B6-B1D8-11D8-8F77-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>	<E495C36B-B039-11D8-9F88-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<0025483F-B13D-11D8-B5BA-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
	<D51915B6-B1D8-11D8-8F77-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40BC87BE.8010609@ocsny.com>

G.Rosamond wrote:

>
> On May 29, 2004, at 2:54 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> ideas?  Non-NYC-centric, project agnostic. . .
>>>
>>> g
>>
>>
>> I think a turtle would be appropriate. Each scale of the shell could 
>> represent a diffrent BSD. It doesn't have to be a 1to 1 
>> correspondence. On second thought they might be percieved as being 
>> slow and hermit-like.
>>
>
> yes, and remember we're talking about fbsd 5.3. ..which may no longer 
> be considered "new technology."
>
>> Strictly incorporating the demon + pitchfork with a sea theme yields 
>> Neptune. But that doesn't mean anything.
>>
>
> but it's there. . .
>
>> Hammer and anvil? Tools of a blacksmith.. a toolmaker. Or we could go 
>> more high-tech to like a machinist. I just thought of the calipers 
>> and maybe it's getting too Masonic here. But I think the blacksmith 
>> line of thought could go pretty far.
>>
>
> Deep. . .
>
> I can see the blacksmith thing working. . .but again, i think that the 
> theme of fbsd 5.3 being the first stable needs to stand out. . .
>
> maybe the theme of atlas holding the globe?  no more tornadoes or 
> rain, no more earthquakes or volcanoes. . .
>
> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

How about a daemon mason, laying bricks into a wall, each brick 
representing the various technologies and BSDs that 5.3 is built upon, 
and that it symbolizes a solid foundation for future growth...et cettera 
blah blah blah....Just my $.05

cheers,
m!



From mikel.king  Tue Jun  1 10:11:58 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:11:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help
In-Reply-To: <53C2D822-B37D-11D8-96E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BAY12-F46jtopOMMdhy000349e0@hotmail.com>
	<53C2D822-B37D-11D8-96E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <40BC8EAE.2070201@ocsny.com>

Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi Harold,
>
> sorry to send again- forgot to cc to the list.
>
> On May 29, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Harold Bush wrote:
>
>> Folks
>>
>> I need some help making a decision. I'm moving my hosting clients 
>> from a rented server in Atlanta to a  location near my office where a 
>> friend and I are sharing a T1 (Wodstock NY). I have a few questions. 
>> I will be providing web host/mail service for about 30 clients and am 
>> wondering whether to use FreeBSD 4.10 or 5.2.1. The goal is to 
>> provide a stable hosting situation that will not require a lot of 
>> work once installed.
>
>
> For a web server you wish not to become painful or surprising:
>
> I'd DEFINATELY suggest going 4.10, (or 4.9 even, but 4.10 is indeed 
> the current production release at the time of this writing).
>
> With FreeBSD, it is best practice (and simply sane) to heed these 
> words: DO NOT attempt to use anything but a Production release for 
> Production systems, unless you specifically know what your doing and 
> have the time/energy/economics to deal with the blood which can spill 
> on the cutting edge.
>
> Also, the FreeBSD cvsup system enables you to elegantly compile a full 
> system upgrade in a given system, so a future of the 5.3 FreeBSD, (the 
> first *gulp* production 5.x release) will be a snap when the time comes.
>
Worth noting however that a cvsup from 4.x to 5.x may not attain the 
complete benefits of a straight 5.x install, because of the ifferences 
between UFS and UFS2. Unless you need finegrained ACL support and have 
the latest hyperthreaded cpus then stick with the 4.x release, and wait 
to upgrade to 5.x when you replace the box.

>> I intend to use Apache and Postfix and some web mail front end not 
>> yet determined (suggestions?).
>
>
> Apache, rocks.  Stick to the 1.3.x branch instead of the 2.x branch, 
> for the same general reasons I suggested above re. FreeBSD 5.x, though 
> the details are much more involved.
>
> Re. MTA's, Postfix is popular and lots of documentation out there, 
> Exim is also popular- both great MTA's (but that's not my specialty, 
> so worth asking around).
>
>>
>> On page 70 of Greg Lehey's book "The Complete FreeBSD" he states:
>> ... I now recommend:
>> Make a single root file system
>> Do not have a seaparate /usr file system
>> Do not have a separate /var file system unless you have a good idea 
>> how big it should be. A good example may be a web server, where 
>> (contrary to FreeBSD's recommendations) it is a good idea to put the 
>> web pages on the var file system
>
>
> Well, if this is your first Unix box in some time, and your going to 
> be feeling it all out, I'd highly suggest making a single root 
> filesystem (for example, what if you end up storing your website 
> somewhere in /usr/local?)
>
>>
>> This is a little confusing to me (I haven't done any Unix work since 
>> 95). Can someone recommend a file structure that will support web 
>> hosting and mail serving that is a known good configuration (in 
>> general)?
>
>
> I'll leave the rest of this to the list for lack of time here- and 
> since I just suggested not to setup a complex partition scheme until 
> you have figured out your individual usage patterns for your system.
>
>>
>> Harold Bush
>> Technologist
>> digitalBRANDS ?
>
>
> Happy hacking!
>
> Rocket,
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/tal
> k

Harold, listen most of us on this list would agree go with the stable 
versions of everything, for your production box, and play with the 
nettech in your lab, especially since you haven't done this in a while. 
The last thing you need when you are getting back into the fold is to 
get that call inthe early am that you money maker has kicked the 
bucket...;-)

So when you say client do you mean sepeate domains or mail accounts or 
what? Taaaaahere are several comercial control panels out there that 
work rath nicely for what you are planning, but they can be pricey...

cheers,
m!



From mlists  Tue Jun  1 10:22:51 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:22:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help
In-Reply-To: <BAY12-F46jtopOMMdhy000349e0@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY12-F46jtopOMMdhy000349e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040601142251.GF7939@bizintegrators.com>

On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 05:35:04PM -0400, Harold Bush wrote:
> Folks
> 
> I need some help making a decision. I'm moving my hosting clients from a 
> rented server in Atlanta to a  location near my office where a friend and I 
> are sharing a T1 (Wodstock NY). I have a few questions. I will be providing 
> web host/mail service for about 30 clients and am wondering whether to use 
> FreeBSD 4.10 or 5.2.1. The goal is to provide a stable hosting situation 

4.10.

> that will not require a lot of work once installed. I intend to use Apache 
> and Postfix and some web mail front end not yet determined (suggestions?).

Since this is a matter of religion.. :)

> 
> On page 70 of Greg Lehey's book "The Complete FreeBSD" he states:
> ... I now recommend:
> Make a single root file system
> Do not have a seaparate /usr file system
> Do not have a separate /var file system unless you have a good idea how big 
> it should be. A good example may be a web server, where (contrary to 
> FreeBSD's recommendations) it is a good idea to put the web pages on the 
> var file system
> 
> This is a little confusing to me (I haven't done any Unix work since 95). 
> Can someone recommend a file structure that will support web hosting and 
> mail serving that is a known good configuration (in general)?

That is a strange recommendation. It might be ok for a personal
workstation (haven't read the book so might be missing a context).

I suggest at least: / /usr /var /tmp /home
Then, you can also make another one for web users.

-bruno

-- 
http://www.bizintegrators.com



From lists  Tue Jun  1 11:13:33 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:13:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help
In-Reply-To: <BAY12-F46jtopOMMdhy000349e0@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY12-F46jtopOMMdhy000349e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040601111333.0697d080@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:35:04 -0400
"Harold Bush" <theotherbush at hotmail.com> wrote:

> The goal is to provide a stable hosting situation 
> that will not require a lot of work once installed. I intend to use
> Apache and Postfix and some web mail front end not yet determined
> (suggestions?).
> 

Since I agree with your choices <grin>

For web mail, I have been using SquirrelMail with success: 
http://squirrelmail.org/

<quote>
What is SquirrelMail?
SquirrelMail is a standards-based webmail package written in PHP4. It
includes built-in pure PHP support for the IMAP and SMTP protocols, and
all pages render in pure HTML 4.0 (with no JavaScript required) for
maximum compatibility across browsers. It has very few requirements and
is very easy to configure and install. SquirrelMail has all the
functionality you would want from an email client, including strong MIME
support, address books, and folder manipulation.
</quote>

It requires Apache, PHP,  and others like Perl, MySQL, Aspell optional
but helpful. It may seem like a lot but I already planned on compiling
these.

I chose Postfix as the MTA.  I also chose maildir (over mbox)  and
Courier for IMAP: http://www.courier-mta.org/
 
I don't know whether GNU GPL is a problem-
Michael

-- 
---



From hans  Tue Jun  1 12:53:44 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:53:44 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


Hey all,

Anyone have any firsthand experience with 5 in a production environment?
I know it's not christened production yet, but figured some might have
it out there anyway.  Of particular interest is the new threading lib.
Anyone pound MySQL against FreeBSD 5?

Thanks,

H



From scottro  Tue Jun  1 13:03:16 2004
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:03:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
Message-ID: <20040601170316.GA2195@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>

On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:53:44AM -0700, Hans Zaunere wrote:
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> Anyone have any firsthand experience with 5 in a production environment?
> I know it's not christened production yet, but figured some might have
> it out there anyway.  Of particular interest is the new threading lib.
> Anyone pound MySQL against FreeBSD 5?


I'm using it in a very unstressed, non-critical way, sort of a backup
samba and print server.  No problems.  However, I WOULD NOT consider
this a true test.  :)


-- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Spike:'Made with care for Randy.' (looks at Giles angrily) Randy 
Giles? Why not just call me 'Horny Giles,' or 'Desperate for a 
Shag Giles'? I knew there was a reason I hated you!
Giles: Randy's ... a family name, undoubtedly.




From pete  Tue Jun  1 13:08:26 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:08:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
Message-ID: <40BCB80A.3050108@nomadlogic.org>

Hans Zaunere wrote:

>Hey all,
>
>Anyone have any firsthand experience with 5 in a production environment?
>I know it's not christened production yet, but figured some might have
>it out there anyway.  Of particular interest is the new threading lib.
>Anyone pound MySQL against FreeBSD 5?
>  
>

I've run it in some production roles, as well as on my laptop to do 
daily sys admin type things.  it did not like my laptop at all, problems 
with the em driver (Thinkpad X31).  Running it on an SMP machine was 
pretty stable, altho GIANT has not been completely removed from the 
FreeBSD 5.x tree yet, so there are still some issues to be worked out 
performance wise.  Also, I remember this from the Bacula list, there are 
some issues with 5.x and MySQL i believe (altho that may be on 4.x).  
I'm sure Dan or someone will correct me on this one...

So yea, there are alot of fun new features to play with, altho I would 
not deem it ready for production or SMP system use yet.  Maybe around 
5.3 things will speed up.

-p

>Thanks,
>
>H
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From hans  Tue Jun  1 13:17:10 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:17:10 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFEE@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


> at all, problems with the em driver (Thinkpad X31).  Running 
> it on an SMP machine was pretty stable, altho GIANT has not 
> been completely removed from the FreeBSD 5.x tree yet, so 
> there are still some issues to be worked out performance 
> wise.  Also, I remember this from the Bacula list, there are 

I wanted to get some more details on Giant, so found this link:

http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200008/dadvocate.html

Thanks for the feedback guys...

H



From mikel.king  Tue Jun  1 13:28:56 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:28:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
Message-ID: <40BCBCD8.2050007@ocsny.com>

Hans Zaunere wrote:

>Hey all,
>
>Anyone have any firsthand experience with 5 in a production environment?
>I know it's not christened production yet, but figured some might have
>it out there anyway.  Of particular interest is the new threading lib.
>Anyone pound MySQL against FreeBSD 5?
>
>Thanks,
>
>H
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>
Been running it on my oneof my main mail, dns, web, & ftp server for 
approx 200+ domains. only complaind a little when I put up spamassassin 
and clamav but Ithink thats more box related, jut too under powered for 
the amount of spam we were getting...

In any event it works.


cheers,
m!



From scottro  Tue Jun  1 14:20:58 2004
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 14:20:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Xorg
Message-ID: <20040601182058.GB2679@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>

I was going to hijack the thread on 5.x but figured I'd better not.  :-(

I'm just curious is anyone using xorg?  There's a discussion about it on
the forums, the upgrade isn't totally seamless but is fairly
straightforward if one follows the recommended procedure.  So far, I've
just done it on a couple of test boxes and haven't run into problems,
but wondering what other folks' experiences were?  As I don't make too
much use of X I haven't tested it too deeply.

-- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Xander: So, Buffy, how'd the slaying go last night? 
Buffy: Xander! 
Xander: I mean, how'd the laying go? No, I don't mean that either.
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From george  Tue Jun  1 15:00:45 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:00:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... DNS
Message-ID: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>


I have a Mac visiting me here on a dhcp lan. It doesn't
seem to properly resolve hosts on my .local domain. 
".local.stage" is also here and that works fine. No clue
from /etc/hosts, is is the "local" domain "prohibited"?
Per logs, that domain doesn't reach my dnscache, 

Few more questions, but guess better to put on separate messages...

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From pete  Tue Jun  1 15:08:39 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 15:08:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... DNS
In-Reply-To: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
References: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
Message-ID: <40BCD437.7040108@nomadlogic.org>

George Georgalis wrote:

>I have a Mac visiting me here on a dhcp lan. It doesn't
>seem to properly resolve hosts on my .local domain. 
>".local.stage" is also here and that works fine. No clue
>from /etc/hosts, is is the "local" domain "prohibited"?
>Per logs, that domain doesn't reach my dnscache, 
>
>Few more questions, but guess better to put on separate messages...
>
>// George
>
>  
>
have you checked out Netinfo in Apps/Utilites/NetinfoManager (it's 
something like that).  this is the kludge i use to manage my hosts file 
on OSX.  Under the machines entry i add each of the boxen that i would 
normally have in my /etc/hosts file.  maybe the bigger mac heads have a 
better workaround.

you might want to also check /etc/resolv.conf and make sure "file" is 
set before netinfo...altho i *think* this get's reset after reboot.

-pete

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Tue Jun  1 15:08:32 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:08:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... DNS
In-Reply-To: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
References: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
Message-ID: <12FC960C-B3FF-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 1, 2004, at 3:00 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

>
> I have a Mac visiting me here on a dhcp lan. It doesn't
> seem to properly resolve hosts on my .local domain.
> ".local.stage" is also here and that works fine. No clue
> from /etc/hosts, is is the "local" domain "prohibited"?
> Per logs, that domain doesn't reach my dnscache,
>
> Few more questions, but guess better to put on separate messages...

The .local TLD is reserved for link-local mDNS (zeroconf).. I hate to 
say it, but you should probably choose another TLD for that LAN.  I 
personally use .lan for my regular link-local DNS.

-bob
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From chrisc  Tue Jun  1 19:09:23 2004
From: chrisc (Chris Coleman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:09:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
In-Reply-To: <40BCBCD8.2050007@ocsny.com>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870241DFA4@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
	<40BCBCD8.2050007@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <B845BA61-B420-11D8-8C43-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>

I'm running 5.2.1 release on my dual proc amd 1500+ and it regularly 
locks up under X or when I scp 4G files from it.

I think the locking up under X is video card related, because it does 
it on 4.x as well.  However the scp problem is new.

-Chris

On Jun 1, 2004, at 12:28 PM, mikel king wrote:

> Hans Zaunere wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Anyone have any firsthand experience with 5 in a production 
>> environment?
>> I know it's not christened production yet, but figured some might have
>> it out there anyway.  Of particular interest is the new threading lib.
>> Anyone pound MySQL against FreeBSD 5?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> H
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> Been running it on my oneof my main mail, dns, web, & ftp server for 
> approx 200+ domains. only complaind a little when I put up 
> spamassassin and clamav but Ithink thats more box related, jut too 
> under powered for the amount of spam we were getting...
>
> In any event it works.
>
>
> cheers,
> m!
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
Chris Coleman			Editor in Chief
Daemon News			http://www.daemonnews.org
BSD Mall				http://www.bsdmall.com
Print Magazine			http://magazine.daemonnews.org




From chrisc  Tue Jun  1 19:11:10 2004
From: chrisc (Chris Coleman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:11:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... DNS
In-Reply-To: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
References: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
Message-ID: <F81FF95D-B420-11D8-8C43-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>

 From what I have heard, Mac OS X uses the .local domain internally for 
its rendezvous protocol, so when you use .local in a real DNS it gets 
confused.

-Chris

On Jun 1, 2004, at 2:00 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

>
> I have a Mac visiting me here on a dhcp lan. It doesn't
> seem to properly resolve hosts on my .local domain.
> ".local.stage" is also here and that works fine. No clue
> from /etc/hosts, is is the "local" domain "prohibited"?
> Per logs, that domain doesn't reach my dnscache,
>
> Few more questions, but guess better to put on separate messages...
>
> // George
>
> -- 
> George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
> Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
Chris Coleman			Editor in Chief
Daemon News			http://www.daemonnews.org
BSD Mall				http://www.bsdmall.com
Print Magazine			http://magazine.daemonnews.org




From jromero  Tue Jun  1 19:14:53 2004
From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:14:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mounting ufs2 on freebsd 4.x
Message-ID: <1086131693.54693.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>



running freebsd 4.10 release on a new server. 
would like to mount disk formatted with ufs2 with previously belonged to
system running 5.2.1. Is there a way to mount it ???




From pete  Tue Jun  1 20:32:28 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:32:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mounting ufs2 on freebsd 4.x
In-Reply-To: <1086131693.54693.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>
References: <1086131693.54693.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>
Message-ID: <40BD201C.7000100@nomadlogic.org>

Jeronimo Romero wrote:

>running freebsd 4.10 release on a new server. 
>would like to mount disk formatted with ufs2 with previously belonged to
>system running 5.2.1. Is there a way to mount it ???
>  
>

here is a nice thread i found on www.google.com/bsd

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2004-January/032960.html

in short...sorry, looks like you are outta luck.

-pete

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Tue Jun  1 19:36:09 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:36:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... XDarwin
In-Reply-To: <F81FF95D-B420-11D8-8C43-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
References: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
	<F81FF95D-B420-11D8-8C43-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
Message-ID: <20040601233609.GB18853@trot.local>

For such a cool "retail" system, I've seen a heck of a lot of quirks. I
know OS X is cool cause for most people, all that unix stuff *works*
with gui, maybe it's just *me* that needs command line, I'm the last one
to prefer gui, but my issues have sensible once I figured what they are.

Thanks for the responses. I was thinking I'd take a look if there was an
nsswitch file, but I was answering questions like "what are you doing to
my mac" when the answer was "this is a command line" and got distracted.

So, I did manage to get open office running, after I discovered I had
to make a system lib keyboard directory and put a USA.keyboard file, I
downloaded, in there, whew.  But, I wasn't about to start explaining twm
to a novice.  So, is sawfish available? what XDarwin window managers do
people recommend? From where? ...I don't really have an opportunity to
experiment. It looks like there is something to interface the Mac X API
but I couldn't get that to work, was I just missing something?

// George



On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 06:11:10PM -0500, Chris Coleman wrote:
>From what I have heard, Mac OS X uses the .local domain internally for 
>its rendezvous protocol, so when you use .local in a real DNS it gets 
>confused.
>
>-Chris
>
>On Jun 1, 2004, at 2:00 PM, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>
>>I have a Mac visiting me here on a dhcp lan. It doesn't
>>seem to properly resolve hosts on my .local domain.
>>".local.stage" is also here and that works fine. No clue
>>from /etc/hosts, is is the "local" domain "prohibited"?
>>Per logs, that domain doesn't reach my dnscache,
>>
>>Few more questions, but guess better to put on separate messages...
>>
>>// George
>>
>>-- 
>>George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
>>http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
>>Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>talk mailing list
>>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>Chris Coleman			Editor in Chief
>Daemon News			http://www.daemonnews.org
>BSD Mall				http://www.bsdmall.com
>Print Magazine			http://magazine.daemonnews.org
>

-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From pete  Tue Jun  1 20:45:30 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 19:45:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... XDarwin
In-Reply-To: <20040601233609.GB18853@trot.local>
References: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>	<F81FF95D-B420-11D8-8C43-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
	<20040601233609.GB18853@trot.local>
Message-ID: <40BD232A.5040908@nomadlogic.org>

George Georgalis wrote:

>So, I did manage to get open office running, after I discovered I had
>to make a system lib keyboard directory and put a USA.keyboard file, I
>downloaded, in there, whew.  But, I wasn't about to start explaining twm
>to a novice.  So, is sawfish available? what XDarwin window managers do
>people recommend? From where? ...I don't really have an opportunity to
>experiment. It looks like there is something to interface the Mac X API
>but I couldn't get that to work, was I just missing something?
>
>  
>
when i've ran openoffice from OSX/XFree86 i usually just opened an xterm 
then ran the app, it should be a bit quicker than running a 
windowmanager ontop of Quartz or whatever it's called.   this was with 
10.2.x releases tho, i'm not sure how it's setup now with 10.3.x
    but yes, gnome/sawfish/kde/windowmaker/etc. are pretty much all 
avail.  i use fink (fink.sf.net) altho i know other people that like 
darwinports (http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/).

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Tue Jun  1 20:21:51 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:21:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client....
In-Reply-To: <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>
	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>

On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 06:00:47AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>
>but for plain ol' FTP, (eeeek!):
>
>Dedicated Client Software:
>The Mac Finder:
>all drag-n-drop n' such...
>From the finder, Controll-K, and then enter the ftp server url...
>(noteworthy, this works great across an SSH tunnel for when you 
>actually encounter some FTP resource in the wild...)
>You can also flip the passive/active switch in the system preferences, 
>Network Pane, in the 'Proxies' tab for a given interface.
>


I got a chance to try this out, first hand, today. Humm, it didn't work
though. I found the passive/active switch too (by the way, that means
an unpredictable port vs port 20 for ftp-data, right? Maybe I'm spoiled
with iptables connection tracking...).  I even tried explicitly stating
the protocol and ip, no go.

I was able to use command line 'ftp' with tar to circumvent free
webmail storage limitations ;-) ...all the more reason the above ctrl-k
procedure not working is a big mystery. Oh, maybe I need ~ftp/lib/ and
~ftp/bin/ files?  My anon ftp doesn't have any...


On the near horizon is another unrelated problem I need to work out,
give _virtual_ users ftp/scp/rsync-ssh access to _their_ and only
_their_ public html docs directories. I saved this shell from a while
back:

http://www.panix.com/~atlunde/software/restricted-shell/rsync-restricted-shell

I've not completely got my head around that one, it may do, but I would
prefer not using system accounts, even if they are restricted, and I
don't want one user to be able to cd to another's 'public' html, and
read htaccess protected files for example.

I'm thinking djb's checkpassword to chroot to the users's dir for a
ftp/scp/rsync-ssh restricted shell (yes I need to enable ftp auth,
securely) could do it, with everything in a cdb. But I'd like to get
something acceptable (ftp) in place soon. :-} Any ideas?

// George



-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From george  Tue Jun  1 20:53:01 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:53:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some OS X questions... XDarwin
In-Reply-To: <40BD232A.5040908@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040601190045.GA15936@trot.local>
	<F81FF95D-B420-11D8-8C43-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
	<20040601233609.GB18853@trot.local>
	<40BD232A.5040908@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040602005301.GD18853@trot.local>

On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 07:45:30PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
>George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>So, I did manage to get open office running, after I discovered I had
>>to make a system lib keyboard directory and put a USA.keyboard file, I
>>downloaded, in there, whew.  But, I wasn't about to start explaining twm
>>to a novice.  So, is sawfish available? what XDarwin window managers do
>>people recommend? From where? ...I don't really have an opportunity to
>>experiment. It looks like there is something to interface the Mac X API
>>but I couldn't get that to work, was I just missing something?
>>
>> 
>>
>when i've ran openoffice from OSX/XFree86 i usually just opened an xterm 
>then ran the app, it should be a bit quicker than running a 
>windowmanager ontop of Quartz or whatever it's called.   this was with 
>10.2.x releases tho, i'm not sure how it's setup now with 10.3.x

Good point, no need to run a window manager... oh, but can you multitask
with other native X apps? Or is your window up till you close it? 

I don't see these details on the website, but basically the OOo package
included several packages (like gv) in addition to the OOo binary and
XDarwin. There is an option to choose the X API OOo will use, native,
something with a snake and an X in the icon, or XDarwin. For me only the
XDarwin X server would work, (I didn't try it in the root window, only
within native display). It works very much like a MacClassic app would
run. This is what it says about ooo103darwingm.dmg

        This build is the DarwinPPC build that requires X11 to run. It
        is ideally targeted for developers and advanced Mac OS X and
        Darwin users who are comfortable using X11. As such, it does
        not yet have a standard Mac OS look and feel. Users who require
        a fully native Mac OS X solution should wait for the Quartz or
        Aqua tracks' releases before using the software when X11 will no
        longer be required.

Oh, it does something funny when running too. It always appears as a
new _disk_ on the desktop from which it runs, in addition to an icon on
the doc and file in /Applications...?? The binary needs to mount itself
locally run from that point. Weird. Even if I stop the app, copy the
content of the mnt point to disk, remove original file and run my new
copy, it mounts itself as a device to run from, again. Maybe I should
let it be. :)

>   but yes, gnome/sawfish/kde/windowmaker/etc. are pretty much all 
>avail.  i use fink (fink.sf.net) altho i know other people that like 
>darwinports (http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/).

darwinports, very nice. look forward to trying that!

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From mikel.king  Tue Jun  1 21:29:50 2004
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 21:29:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Xorg
In-Reply-To: <20040601182058.GB2679@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>
References: <20040601182058.GB2679@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>
Message-ID: <40BD2D8E.80009@ocsny.com>

Scott Robbins wrote:

>I was going to hijack the thread on 5.x but figured I'd better not.  :-(
>
>I'm just curious is anyone using xorg?  There's a discussion about it on
>the forums, the upgrade isn't totally seamless but is fairly
>straightforward if one follows the recommended procedure.  So far, I've
>just done it on a couple of test boxes and haven't run into problems,
>but wondering what other folks' experiences were?  As I don't make too
>much use of X I haven't tested it too deeply.
>
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>
Hi Scott,

    I am running x on my laptop with 5.1 and aside from some anomolies 
with portupgrade not exactly uh well upgrading things have been ok.

-- 
Cheers,
Mikel King
Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
39 West Fourteenth Street
Second Floor
New York, NY 10011
http://www.ocsny.com

+------------------------------------------+
You may like them. You will see. You may
like them in a tree.
http://www.FreeBSD.org
http://www.OpenOffice.org
http://www.Mozilla.org
http://www.MySql.org
+------------------------------------------+
How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other,
but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your
spirit, while competition only stokes your ego.
+------------------------------------------+




From bob  Tue Jun  1 21:54:19 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:54:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh (was: ftp
	client....)
In-Reply-To: <20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>
	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
Message-ID: <C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 1, 2004, at 8:21 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On the near horizon is another unrelated problem I need to work out,
> give _virtual_ users ftp/scp/rsync-ssh access to _their_ and only
> _their_ public html docs directories. I saved this shell from a while
> back:
>
> http://www.panix.com/~atlunde/software/restricted-shell/rsync- 
> restricted-shell
>
> I've not completely got my head around that one, it may do, but I would
> prefer not using system accounts, even if they are restricted, and I
> don't want one user to be able to cd to another's 'public' html, and
> read htaccess protected files for example.

That 'shell' requires system accounts, and it's not chrooted.  Seems  
like a pretty ghetto way to do it in any case...

> I'm thinking djb's checkpassword to chroot to the users's dir for a
> ftp/scp/rsync-ssh restricted shell (yes I need to enable ftp auth,
> securely) could do it, with everything in a cdb. But I'd like to get
> something acceptable (ftp) in place soon. :-} Any ideas?

The solution I would use is to use servers designed to handle the  
virtual user scenario.  I remember ProFTPd (?) being capable of doing  
this quite a few years ago.  As for scp and rsync-ssh I don't know of  
any out of the box solutions, however if you're good with Python you  
may want to take a look at conch (a component of Twisted,  
http://twistedmatrix.com/), which is a Python implementation of the SSH  
protocol.  I've personally seen it used to implement restricted virtual  
scp, but I don't think any such package has been released.  Twisted  
does of course also have a FTP component that can be used more or less  
out of the box.  I'm not really very familiar with the implementation  
of rsync, but I can't imagine it would be too hard to implement either.

If you have a budget to support this configuration, I can find you a  
developer that'll be able to whip this up rather quickly.

On the other hand, I've personally standardized on WebDAV with Apache2:
- You probably already know how to configure it
- You can authenticate and authorize however the hell you want
- Encryption is easy, just use SSL
- Anyone with a web browser can fetch files from it
- Anyone with a non-ancient operating system can mount it as a  
filesystem without any additional software
- Anyone with an ancient operating system can still get software  
that'll do it
- Many software products integrate with it specifically

Sure, it's not the most efficient transport, but it's (BY FAR) the most  
practical for my purposes.

-bob
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From pete  Tue Jun  1 22:41:48 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:41:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client....
In-Reply-To: <20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>
	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
Message-ID: <653A9716-B43E-11D8-9F34-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 1, 2004, at 8:21 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 06:00:47AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>>
>> but for plain ol' FTP, (eeeek!):
>>
>> Dedicated Client Software:
>> The Mac Finder:
>> all drag-n-drop n' such...
>> From the finder, Controll-K, and then enter the ftp server url...
>> (noteworthy, this works great across an SSH tunnel for when you
>> actually encounter some FTP resource in the wild...)
>> You can also flip the passive/active switch in the system preferences,
>> Network Pane, in the 'Proxies' tab for a given interface.
>>
>
>
> I got a chance to try this out, first hand, today. Humm, it didn't work
> though. I found the passive/active switch too (by the way, that means
> an unpredictable port vs port 20 for ftp-data, right? Maybe I'm spoiled
> with iptables connection tracking...).  I even tried explicitly stating
> the protocol and ip, no go.
>
> I was able to use command line 'ftp' with tar to circumvent free
> webmail storage limitations ;-) ...all the more reason the above ctrl-k
> procedure not working is a big mystery. Oh, maybe I need ~ftp/lib/ and
> ~ftp/bin/ files?  My anon ftp doesn't have any...
>
>
> On the near horizon is another unrelated problem I need to work out,
> give _virtual_ users ftp/scp/rsync-ssh access to _their_ and only
> _their_ public html docs directories. I saved this shell from a while
> back:
>

i've just implemented proftpd authenticating via MySQL.  the accounts  
are managed via a web gui.  works pretty well, and each ftp user is  
chroot'd.  i am not sure about ssh utils, altho i'm sure you can have  
fun with PAM etc...

-p

> http://www.panix.com/~atlunde/software/restricted-shell/rsync- 
> restricted-shell
>
> I've not completely got my head around that one, it may do, but I would
> prefer not using system accounts, even if they are restricted, and I
> don't want one user to be able to cd to another's 'public' html, and
> read htaccess protected files for example.
>
> I'm thinking djb's checkpassword to chroot to the users's dir for a
> ftp/scp/rsync-ssh restricted shell (yes I need to enable ftp auth,
> securely) could do it, with everything in a cdb. But I'd like to get
> something acceptable (ftp) in place soon. :-} Any ideas?
>
> // George
>
>
>
> -- 
> George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
> Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From jesse  Tue Jun  1 22:51:42 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:51:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mounting ufs2 on freebsd 4.x
In-Reply-To: <1086131693.54693.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>
References: <1086131693.54693.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>
Message-ID: <C6F1B358-B43F-11D8-8F3E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>


On Jun 1, 2004, at 7:14 PM, Jeronimo Romero wrote:
>
> running freebsd 4.10 release on a new server.
> would like to mount disk formatted with ufs2 with previously belonged 
> to
> system running 5.2.1. Is there a way to mount it ???
>

Use the network.




From joshmccormack  Tue Jun  1 22:57:00 2004
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 22:57:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN?
In-Reply-To: <C53BD94E-B3CF-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
References: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost>
	<C53BD94E-B3CF-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <40BD41FC.2030402@travelersdiary.com>

> On May 28, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:
> 
>> Do you know someone at MSN?
>>
>> My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically.
>> Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop.  I
>> suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged
>> out of MSN Messenger.




Here's an idea: try to chat with 'yourself' as someone who the thief 
would want to meet. Appeal to prurient or greedy desires, present an 
offer they can't refuse, and lay a trap.

Josh

























































From hans  Tue Jun  1 23:51:35 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:51:35 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702511D0D@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


> I'm running 5.2.1 release on my dual proc amd 1500+ and it 
> regularly locks up under X or when I scp 4G files from it.
> 
> I think the locking up under X is video card related, because 
> it does it on 4.x as well.  However the scp problem is new.

Yeah, the scp is a bit scary (although 4gb is a magic number...)

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  From what I've gleamed, 5 still has a
ways to go.  If anyone has a fairly loaded system under 5, I'd be
interested in hearing more.

H




From dan  Wed Jun  2 06:18:35 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 06:18:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN?
In-Reply-To: <40BD41FC.2030402@travelersdiary.com>
References: <C53BD94E-B3CF-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <40BD713B.28279.2D134369@localhost>

On 1 Jun 2004 at 22:57, Josh McCormack wrote:

> > On May 28, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:
> > 
> >> Do you know someone at MSN?
> >>
> >> My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically.
> >> Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop.  I
> >> suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged
> >> out of MSN Messenger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an idea: try to chat with 'yourself' as someone who the thief 
> would want to meet. Appeal to prurient or greedy desires, present an 
> offer they can't refuse, and lay a trap.

They only came online once.  And were gone.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From george  Wed Jun  2 09:37:02 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:37:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh (was: ftp
	client....)
In-Reply-To: <C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>
	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>

On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:54:19PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>On Jun 1, 2004, at 8:21 PM, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>I'm thinking djb's checkpassword to chroot to the users's dir for a
>>ftp/scp/rsync-ssh restricted shell (yes I need to enable ftp auth,
>>securely) could do it, with everything in a cdb. But I'd like to get
>>something acceptable (ftp) in place soon. :-} Any ideas?
>
>The solution I would use is to use servers designed to handle the  
>virtual user scenario.  I remember ProFTPd (?) being capable of doing  
>this quite a few years ago.

I never noticed virtual users as a ProFTPd feature. It looks perfect,
will have to give it a shot and worry about the other protocols later.

>  As for scp and rsync-ssh I don't know of  
>any out of the box solutions, however if you're good with Python you  
>may want to take a look at conch (a component of Twisted,  
>http://twistedmatrix.com/), which is a Python implementation of the SSH  
>protocol.  I've personally seen it used to implement restricted virtual  
>scp, but I don't think any such package has been released.  Twisted  
>does of course also have a FTP component that can be used more or less  
>out of the box.  I'm not really very familiar with the implementation  
>of rsync, but I can't imagine it would be too hard to implement either.


I think Twisted, http://twistedmatrix.com/ is a bit of a stretch. :)
Thanks for the link anyhow.


>On the other hand, I've personally standardized on WebDAV with Apache2:
>- You probably already know how to configure it
>- You can authenticate and authorize however the hell you want
>- Encryption is easy, just use SSL
>- Anyone with a web browser can fetch files from it
>- Anyone with a non-ancient operating system can mount it as a  
>filesystem without any additional software
>- Anyone with an ancient operating system can still get software  
>that'll do it
>- Many software products integrate with it specifically


It never occurred to me that I might actually _want_ Apache2 features.
This looks worth looking into. Thanks.

// George



-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From bob  Wed Jun  2 10:47:53 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:47:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh (was: ftp
	client....)
In-Reply-To: <20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>
	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>
Message-ID: <D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:37 AM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:54:19PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 2004, at 8:21 PM, George Georgalis wrote:
>>
>>> I'm thinking djb's checkpassword to chroot to the users's dir for a
>>> ftp/scp/rsync-ssh restricted shell (yes I need to enable ftp auth,
>>> securely) could do it, with everything in a cdb. But I'd like to get
>>> something acceptable (ftp) in place soon. :-} Any ideas?
>>
>> The solution I would use is to use servers designed to handle the
>> virtual user scenario.  I remember ProFTPd (?) being capable of doing
>> this quite a few years ago.
>
> I never noticed virtual users as a ProFTPd feature. It looks perfect,
> will have to give it a shot and worry about the other protocols later.

I also remember it having some exploits a few years ago.. but I'm sure 
that's probably settled down :)  I don't think I've ran ProFTPd since 
1999 or so..

>>  As for scp and rsync-ssh I don't know of
>> any out of the box solutions, however if you're good with Python you
>> may want to take a look at conch (a component of Twisted,
>> http://twistedmatrix.com/), which is a Python implementation of the 
>> SSH
>> protocol.  I've personally seen it used to implement restricted 
>> virtual
>> scp, but I don't think any such package has been released.  Twisted
>> does of course also have a FTP component that can be used more or less
>> out of the box.  I'm not really very familiar with the implementation
>> of rsync, but I can't imagine it would be too hard to implement 
>> either.
>
> I think Twisted, http://twistedmatrix.com/ is a bit of a stretch. :)
> Thanks for the link anyhow.

Why do you say it's a stretch?  It's probably the only thing out there 
that's designed to facilitate the sort of configuration you want.

>> On the other hand, I've personally standardized on WebDAV with 
>> Apache2:
>> - You probably already know how to configure it
>> - You can authenticate and authorize however the hell you want
>> - Encryption is easy, just use SSL
>> - Anyone with a web browser can fetch files from it
>> - Anyone with a non-ancient operating system can mount it as a
>> filesystem without any additional software
>> - Anyone with an ancient operating system can still get software
>> that'll do it
>> - Many software products integrate with it specifically
>
> It never occurred to me that I might actually _want_ Apache2 features.
> This looks worth looking into. Thanks.

Apache 2 is definitely underrated.  If you have to run really tightly 
integrated modules or really squeeze performance out of a box, Apache 
1.3.x really isn't an option.  Extra functionality is just icing on the 
cake.

There is at least one WebDAV implementation for Apache 1.3.x, but it 
probably hasn't been updated much since the release of Apache 2.. so I 
would just bite the bullet and go with Apache 2.

-bob
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From ike  Tue Jun  1 12:20:03 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:20:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...)
In-Reply-To: <54926.68.237.206.112.1085667097.squirrel@mail.sddi.net>
References: <p0600202fbcdadbdbe228@[10.0.1.34]>
	<54926.68.237.206.112.1085667097.squirrel@mail.sddi.net>
Message-ID: <89570812-B3E7-11D8-8282-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wah!

On May 27, 2004, at 10:11 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>>> hmm... maybe it wants coffee.
>>
>> No, that I'm sure of! Same client, a year or 2 back, I get a call
>> about a PowerBook not working: turns out it took about half a grande
>> latte in the keyboard. Nice piece of design, that keyboard: it kept
>> the liquid away from the important bits.
>
> Ike has some insight about Dos Equis and PowerBooks. . .
>
> <snip>

OOoooouch....

http://ikebook.structuredsystems.net

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Tue Jun  1 10:49:51 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:49:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise....
In-Reply-To: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie>
References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie>
Message-ID: <EFD32D18-B3DA-11D8-8282-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Nigel, All,

I know I'm a bit late responding here, but I really wanted to add some 
ikestyle history here about BSD's in 'Corporate' enviornnments.

First things first, BSD and Linux come from different places, (and btw 
I'm not interested on starting some flame war here re. BSD vs. Linux).
The BSD's, ancestrally, come directly from early UNIX systems dating 
back to the original Bell Labs UNIX of 69'.  Various UNIX'es, in the 
latter third of the 20th century, defined what was computing in 
corporate environments.  Unix has been a part of large corporate 
environments as long as computers have dominated the corporate working 
process.

It was the PC revolution which changed the corporate computing 
landscape.  The gradual switch from mainframe servers, to heavy use of 
client/workstation computers in the corporate workplace, (and now back 
to an interesting balance of the two).  UNIX systems size and relative 
complexity was more than any sane PC could handle at the time, which is 
why UNIX has a hardcore reputation living in big iron.  PC operating 
systems and software had to be re-thunk, (much like many chandheld and 
embedded devices today [think cellphones]).

Microsoft has dominated the PC Corporate desktop/workstation from the 
start, and with that, as the internet moves us back into a networked 
WORLD, the server is again taking the spotlight- (though not nearly the 
singular role it had in past decades).  With this change, MS Server 
products came to dominate the corporate server landscape based on the 
fact that they already run the PC systems that people came to touch, 
see, and rely on.

But, with that, UNIX has never gone away- and in fact, various *nix'es 
matured and grew technologically well in advance of MS, in order to 
compete with the massive marketing/market resources of MS (and others).

--
Rewind to 1990-ish, PC systems have passed a threshold where UNIX can 
sanely run on a PC chipset- the mature Berleley Software Distribution 
for UNIX is given a Kernel (all it needed to become a full OS), and 
Linux rose out of PC hackers.
This is a fundamental difference between Linux and BSD, Linux comes 
from PC (x86) hackers creating an arguably POSIX compliant UNIX OS, and 
The BSD's come from OLD Unix being re-born for the PC (x86).

At this point in time, the chipsets for most servers is the same as 
most desktop PC's out there, (I'm talking about the masses of machines 
out there), primarily driven by the internet boom.  Linux gained 
mindshare as being a new frontier, and has championed the formalization 
of Open Source for the last decade, being pushed into new environments, 
and embraced by exited entrepreneurs as much as by hackers.  BSD on the 
other hand, has simply been put into service in many mission-critical 
environments I've seen- no fuss, no mascot logos in sight, and often in 
BIG or old iron.


On May 29, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Nigel Clarke wrote:

> What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? Linux
> was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to
> endorse it. When I say successful, I'm speaking of making it into
> corporate environments.

Here's the basics of why- with all due respect to a lot of intelligent 
people, the majority of the corporate world are NOT techies- but rely 
almost completely on technology.  With this, their IT decisions are 
guided by trust and reputation, as well as clear marketing.  The BSD's 
have survived on technical merit, which says a lot.  (Even in the 70's, 
Ken Thompson was quoted noting something about all the UNIX marketing 
hype being good for all UNIXes back then).

IBM's dependancy/hate relationship with Microsoft is WAY to big to 
tackle here, but in a nutshell, they have been carrying the Linux 
battle flag as a way to escape being under Microsoft's thumb- (after 
their own failed OS).

>
> One of the other advantages that Linux offers is that it is economical.
> That and stable vendor support make it an easy decision for management.

There are noteworthy strengths and weaknesses for both the BSD and 
Linux families, but I'm really interested here in what you speak of 
when you speak of stable vendor support?  I understand that IBM is 
perceived as a stable choice, but have you seen this undermine any 
other unix system out there?


>
> How does BSD compare? How will BSD make it into corporate environments?

Short answer- it's already in there, and BSD's tight UNIX ancestors 
have arguably shaped the core of corporate computing since the 
beginning...

Rocket,
.ike




From bschonhorst  Wed Jun  2 11:33:02 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:33:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...)
In-Reply-To: <89570812-B3E7-11D8-8282-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <p0600202fbcdadbdbe228@[10.0.1.34]>
	<54926.68.237.206.112.1085667097.squirrel@mail.sddi.net>
	<89570812-B3E7-11D8-8282-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <230B71CC-B4AA-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>


On Jun 1, 2004, at 12:20 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Wah!
>
> On May 27, 2004, at 10:11 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
>>>> hmm... maybe it wants coffee.
>>>
>>> No, that I'm sure of! Same client, a year or 2 back, I get a call
>>> about a PowerBook not working: turns out it took about half a grande
>>> latte in the keyboard. Nice piece of design, that keyboard: it kept
>>> the liquid away from the important bits.
>>
>> Ike has some insight about Dos Equis and PowerBooks. . .
>>
>> <snip>
>
> OOoooouch....
>
> http://ikebook.structuredsystems.net
>

Thats great! I had to forward your link on to my wife who killed the 
keyboard on our ibook with champagne...

-brad
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From george  Wed Jun  2 10:57:33 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:57:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN?
In-Reply-To: <40BD713B.28279.2D134369@localhost>
References: <C53BD94E-B3CF-11D8-A481-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40BD713B.28279.2D134369@localhost>
Message-ID: <2D943053-B4A5-11D8-9026-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 2, 2004, at 6:18 AM, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 1 Jun 2004 at 22:57, Josh McCormack wrote:
>
>>> On May 28, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you know someone at MSN?
>>>>
>>>> My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically.
>>>> Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop.  I
>>>> suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged
>>>> out of MSN Messenger.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's an idea: try to chat with 'yourself' as someone who the thief
>> would want to meet. Appeal to prurient or greedy desires, present an
>> offer they can't refuse, and lay a trap.
>
> They only came online once.  And were gone.
> -- 
> Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/
>

Maybe i missed something in this thread somewhere along the way, but 
did you talk to level i support at msn?

did you ask for a manager?


or email security at msn.com or whatever their digital security contact 
info is?

g




From dan  Wed Jun  2 11:39:22 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:39:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN?
In-Reply-To: <2D943053-B4A5-11D8-9026-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <40BD713B.28279.2D134369@localhost>
Message-ID: <40BDBC6A.27948.2E38F6A0@localhost>

On 2 Jun 2004 at 10:57, G.Rosamond wrote:

> 
> On Jun 2, 2004, at 6:18 AM, Dan Langille wrote:
> 
> > On 1 Jun 2004 at 22:57, Josh McCormack wrote:
> >
> >>> On May 28, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Do you know someone at MSN?
> >>>>
> >>>> My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically.
> >>>> Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop.  I
> >>>> suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged
> >>>> out of MSN Messenger.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's an idea: try to chat with 'yourself' as someone who the thief
> >> would want to meet. Appeal to prurient or greedy desires, present an
> >> offer they can't refuse, and lay a trap.
> >
> > They only came online once.  And were gone.

> Maybe i missed something in this thread somewhere along the way, but 
> did you talk to level i support at msn?

Level i?  I spent about 90 minutes on the phone when it happened.  
Nobody was able to tell me anything.

> did you ask for a manager?

Not explicitly, I asked if there was anyone else to talk to.

> or email security at msn.com or whatever their digital security contact 
> info is?

What I've heard, from multiple sources, is I can't get anything 
without police involvement.  I've been trying to get them 
involved....  The police report was filed within 10 minutes of the 
theft being discovered.  This was Thursday May 27.  I called 
yesterday and left a message for the dectective.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From george  Wed Jun  2 11:57:21 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:57:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh (was: ftp
	client....)
In-Reply-To: <D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>
	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>
	<D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:47:53AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:37 AM, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>I think Twisted, http://twistedmatrix.com/ is a bit of a stretch. :)
>>Thanks for the link anyhow.
>
>Why do you say it's a stretch?  It's probably the only thing out there 
>that's designed to facilitate the sort of configuration you want.

I tend to stick with 'traditional' installations, for a variety
of reasons.  Trying twistedmatrix would cause a variety of site
technical/political issues, besides the extra time to learn it...


>>It never occurred to me that I might actually _want_ Apache2 features.
>>This looks worth looking into. Thanks.
>
>Apache 2 is definitely underrated.  If you have to run really tightly 
>integrated modules or really squeeze performance out of a box, Apache 
>1.3.x really isn't an option.  Extra functionality is just icing on the 
>cake.
>
>There is at least one WebDAV implementation for Apache 1.3.x, but it 
>probably hasn't been updated much since the release of Apache 2.. so I 
>would just bite the bullet and go with Apache 2.

Neat. I only know about apache2 because of posts where people have
installation issues, need to take a closer look.

// George



-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From pete  Wed Jun  2 12:13:46 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:13:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh
In-Reply-To: <20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>	<D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>
Message-ID: <40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>

George Georgalis wrote:

>On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:47:53AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>  
>
>I tend to stick with 'traditional' installations, for a variety
>of reasons.  Trying twistedmatrix would cause a variety of site
>technical/political issues, besides the extra time to learn it...
>
>
>  
>
just a question, why are you shying away from chroot'ing each of these 
users?  you can set up each jail with access only to rsync/scp/sftp etc. 
and the respective config files.  as i found with the proftp jail's, 
it's not as hard as it seems.  it just takes a bit of planning, but once 
you figure out what each user needs things should be ok.  new jails can 
even be automated with a scripting lang as well.  i do know that whith 
jailed ssh sessions there are issues with running programs like "w" and 
"ps", altho it doesn't seem like you need interactive logins....

-p



From pete  Wed Jun  2 12:22:07 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:22:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh
In-Reply-To: <40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local>	<40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>	<D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>
	<40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40BDFEAF.7010706@nomadlogic.org>

Pete Wright wrote:

> George Georgalis wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:47:53AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>  
>>
>> I tend to stick with 'traditional' installations, for a variety
>> of reasons.  Trying twistedmatrix would cause a variety of site
>> technical/political issues, besides the extra time to learn it...
>>
>>
>>  
>>
> just a question, why are you shying away from chroot'ing each of these 
> users?  you can set up each jail with access only to rsync/scp/sftp 
> etc. and the respective config files.  as i found with the proftp 
> jail's, it's not as hard as it seems.  it just takes a bit of 
> planning, but once you figure out what each user needs things should 
> be ok.  new jails can even be automated with a scripting lang as 
> well.  i do know that whith jailed ssh sessions there are issues with 
> running programs like "w" and "ps", altho it doesn't seem like you 
> need interactive logins....
>
> -p

sorry don't think it was quite clear here, mixed up jail's and chroot.  
anyway here is a interesting link that explains what i was trying to state:


http://docs.freebsd.org/44doc/papers/jail/jail-4.html#section4

this is the main page:
http://docs.freebsd.org/44doc/papers/jail/jail.html


-pete



> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk





From george  Wed Jun  2 13:51:25 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:51:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh
In-Reply-To: <40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>
	<D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>
	<40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040602175125.GD2990@trot.local>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 12:13:46PM -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
>George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:47:53AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> 
>>
>>I tend to stick with 'traditional' installations, for a variety
>>of reasons.  Trying twistedmatrix would cause a variety of site
>>technical/political issues, besides the extra time to learn it...
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>just a question, why are you shying away from chroot'ing each of these 
>users?  you can set up each jail with access only to rsync/scp/sftp etc. 
>and the respective config files.  as i found with the proftp jail's, 
>it's not as hard as it seems.  it just takes a bit of planning, but once 
>you figure out what each user needs things should be ok.  new jails can 
>even be automated with a scripting lang as well.  i do know that whith 
>jailed ssh sessions there are issues with running programs like "w" and 
>"ps", altho it doesn't seem like you need interactive logins....

Sounds like a nice way to go. I've only used commercial "chroot hosting
solutions" (ensim) and packages that implement them for me, like djbdns.
I've been meaning to go through a chroot apache howto but it has gotten
bumped for 6+ months. Any links for setting up a chroot like you
describe would be welcome, I need to read up on the process.

A non-login chroot for each user that allows transfer protocols
would fit the bill, if it doesn't require system accounts (they would
disrupt some portability that's in place), so I'm back to my original
question of services based on a user/auth cdb and checkpassword.

BTW - is there a way to give cvs access but no login shell and no
pserver? 

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From pete  Wed Jun  2 14:25:14 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:25:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh
In-Reply-To: <20040602175125.GD2990@trot.local>
References: <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org>	<47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>	<D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>	<40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040602175125.GD2990@trot.local>
Message-ID: <40BE1B8A.10007@nomadlogic.org>

George Georgalis wrote:

>On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 12:13:46PM -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>>>      
>>>
>>just a question, why are you shying away from chroot'ing each of these 
>>users?  you can set up each jail with access only to rsync/scp/sftp etc. 
>>and the respective config files.  as i found with the proftp jail's, 
>>it's not as hard as it seems.  it just takes a bit of planning, but once 
>>you figure out what each user needs things should be ok.  new jails can 
>>even be automated with a scripting lang as well.  i do know that whith 
>>jailed ssh sessions there are issues with running programs like "w" and 
>>"ps", altho it doesn't seem like you need interactive logins....
>>    
>>
>
>Sounds like a nice way to go. I've only used commercial "chroot hosting
>solutions" (ensim) and packages that implement them for me, like djbdns.
>I've been meaning to go through a chroot apache howto but it has gotten
>bumped for 6+ months. Any links for setting up a chroot like you
>describe would be welcome, I need to read up on the process.
>
>A non-login chroot for each user that allows transfer protocols
>would fit the bill, if it doesn't require system accounts (they would
>disrupt some portability that's in place), so I'm back to my original
>question of services based on a user/auth cdb and checkpassword.
>
>  
>
this is what i accomplished using proftpd-mysql.  all user info stored 
in the DB (username/pass/uid/gid/homedir), and each child ftp daemon is 
spawned in a jail, so even if some is able to own the ftp daemon it is 
confinded to the jail.  another nice feature of proftpd is what home 
dirs will be created dynamicly.  but i digress.  as for other services 
(rsync...) it might be worth checking out PAM, there may be auth modules 
out there that have what you are looking for.  i know of imap auth-db 
PAM modules for example, i'm not too sure about rsync/ssh tho.

    i think the second link i posted is a good starting place for 
FreeBSD.  OpenBSD also makes heavy use of jails.  I do not have any 
direct links right now, only the mans ;)  maybe someone else on the list 
knows of a good howto or something...

>BTW - is there a way to give cvs access but no login shell and no
>pserver? 
>  
>
this i don't know, altho i assume it should be pretty trvial.

-pete

>
>  
>




From george  Wed Jun  2 15:20:00 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:20:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh
In-Reply-To: <40BE1B8A.10007@nomadlogic.org>
References: <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040602002151.GC18853@trot.local>
	<C31CC4E1-B437-11D8-9B3A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602133702.GA966@trot.local>
	<D3DEFA03-B4A3-11D8-9821-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040602155721.GA2990@trot.local>
	<40BDFCBA.9040101@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040602175125.GD2990@trot.local> <40BE1B8A.10007@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040602192000.GE2990@trot.local>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 02:25:14PM -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
>George Georgalis wrote:
>
>this is what i accomplished using proftpd-mysql.

Yep, I think that's what I'll use.

>   i think the second link i posted is a good starting place for 
>FreeBSD.  OpenBSD also makes heavy use of jails.  I do not have any 
>direct links right now, only the mans ;)  maybe someone else on the list 
>knows of a good howto or something...

Was reading over that.  I normally use linux, it looks like FreeBSD
'jail' and linux 'chroot' commands provide roughly the same
functionality, with better networking support with FreeBSD jail.

Is there a separate BSD 'chroot' command that provides different
functionality than the 'jail' command?


>>BTW - is there a way to give cvs access but no login shell and no
>>pserver? 
>> 
>>
>this i don't know, altho i assume it should be pretty trvial.

generally the cvs binary operates on the local filesystem CVSROOT,
so using cvs remotely via the ssh shell is an easy way to do remote.
but with no login shell I doubt running remote cvs commands will be easy.
pserver is a cleartext server daemon for cvs access, but seems to get
compromised from time to time.

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/  cell:646-331-2027  mailto:george at galis.org
Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7  9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631




From jromero  Wed Jun  2 15:36:21 2004
From: jromero (jromero at romero3000.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:36:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] imap queries
Message-ID: <40BE2C35.8030205@romero3000.com>

does anyone know approximately how much bandwidth the average imap 
server query takes up??
how about message downloads??
I realize these are very general questions. Just looking for ballpark 
figure.



From jesse  Wed Jun  2 16:45:23 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:45:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] imap queries
In-Reply-To: <40BE2C35.8030205@romero3000.com>
References: <40BE2C35.8030205@romero3000.com>
Message-ID: <40BE3C63.6020500@theholymountain.com>

jromero at romero3000.com wrote:

> does anyone know approximately how much bandwidth the average imap 
> server query takes up??
> how about message downloads??
> I realize these are very general questions. Just looking for ballpark 
> figure.

On a 56k modem it may take up all of the bandwidth. Maybe not. Not much 
data is transferred in IMAP. So, ok nobody uses those to connect who I know.
The next thing to look at would be how many messages pile up between synchs.


so reeeal ballpark. About a webpage's worth of bandwidth. [ducking for 
cover]

If you're looking for something which conserves bandwidth then, 
ironically, POP would be the way to go.



From pete  Wed Jun  2 17:21:58 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:21:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] imap queries
In-Reply-To: <40BE3C63.6020500@theholymountain.com>
References: <40BE2C35.8030205@romero3000.com>
	<40BE3C63.6020500@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <40BE44F6.8010903@nomadlogic.org>

Jesse Callaway wrote:

> jromero at romero3000.com wrote:
>
>> does anyone know approximately how much bandwidth the average imap 
>> server query takes up??
>> how about message downloads??
>> I realize these are very general questions. Just looking for ballpark 
>> figure.
>
>

i don't have a clue, altho i'm sure one could use ethereal/tcpdump to 
sniff the packets of a IMAP query.

> On a 56k modem it may take up all of the bandwidth. Maybe not. Not 
> much data is transferred in IMAP. So, ok nobody uses those to connect 
> who I know.
> The next thing to look at would be how many messages pile up between 
> synchs.
>
>
> so reeeal ballpark. About a webpage's worth of bandwidth. [ducking for 
> cover]
>
> If you're looking for something which conserves bandwidth then, 
> ironically, POP would be the way to go.


or ssh/mutt or pine ;^)

-p

> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Wed Jun  2 18:20:36 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:20:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] imap queries
In-Reply-To: <40BE2C35.8030205@romero3000.com>
References: <40BE2C35.8030205@romero3000.com>
Message-ID: <12897D01-B4E3-11D8-8B2E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 2, 2004, at 3:36 PM, jromero at romero3000.com wrote:

> does anyone know approximately how much bandwidth the average imap 
> server query takes up??
> how about message downloads??
> I realize these are very general questions. Just looking for ballpark 
> figure.

I haven't read the RFC lately, but I'm positive that the protocol 
overhead is totally negligible compared to the size of the messages.  
Bandwidth is really the wrong measure anyway...  Any protocol is going 
to take as much bandwidth as it has available to it until it sends what 
it needs to send (given ideal TCP conditions and enough time, yadda 
yadda yadda), unless it's explicitly throttled.

In other words, you're probably asking the wrong question.  It really 
shouldn't matter.

-bob
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From pete  Wed Jun  2 21:48:26 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:48:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
Message-ID: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>

boy i wish i was at the bug and not doing a night shift :(  here is an 
interesting link regarding monolithic kernels relating to OpenBSD:

http://kerneltrap.org/comment/reply/3239

i pretty much agree with alot of the issues raised, but in my industry i 
need fully funtional 3D drivers provided by nvidia for linux.  yea it 
sucks that they are not GPL'd, but hey it's better than using NT for 
Maya....

-pete

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From paul  Wed Jun  2 21:36:29 2004
From: paul (Paul Dlug)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:36:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5
In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702511D0D@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702511D0D@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
Message-ID: <6FEC4656-B4FE-11D8-A348-000A95C8C6BA@aps.org>

> Thanks for the feedback everyone.  From what I've gleamed, 5 still has 
> a
> ways to go.  If anyone has a fairly loaded system under 5, I'd be
> interested in hearing more.

I'm currently running a heavily loaded tomcat server (java 1.4) on a 
5.2.1 SMP box, also running a primary OpenLDAP server on another 5.2.1 
box. I mostly chose 5.2.1 because I wanted the ULE scheduler, UFS2 with 
snapshots and some RAID hardware support that hasn't been backported to 
4.x. We were previously running 5.2.1 on our print server and some 
smaller servers without any problems. At least this way when 5.3 comes 
out we won't be redoing a box, it should be a smoother upgrade. Also 
alot of the newer hardware configurations seem to experience fewer 
problems under 5.x, especially when it comes to ACPI issues.

--Paul




From elric  Wed Jun  2 17:31:45 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:31:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] virtual users and ftp/scp/rsync-ssh 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:20:00 EDT."
	<20040602192000.GE2990@trot.local> 
Message-ID: <20040602213145.1EED5174BF@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086204000 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
George Georgalis wrote:
>

>Was reading over that.  I normally use linux, it looks like FreeBSD
>'jail' and linux 'chroot' commands provide roughly the same
>functionality, with better networking support with FreeBSD jail.
>
>Is there a separate BSD 'chroot' command that provides different
>functionality than the 'jail' command?

On a system call level, from the NetBSD chroot(2) man page:

STANDARDS
     The chroot() function conforms to X/Open System Interfaces and Headers
     Issue 5 (``XSH5''), with the restriction that the calling process' work-
     ing directory must be at or under the new root directory.  Otherwise, the
     working directory is silently set to the new root directory; this is an
     extension to the standard.

     chroot() was declared a legacy interface, and subsequently removed in
     IEEE Std 1003.1-2001 (``POSIX.1'').

There is also a chroot(8) which appeared in 4.4BSD (1993?).

So, short form, yes the BSDs do have chroot.  I think that pretty
much all UNIX and UNIX-like OSes have chroot unless you look for
quite odd ones.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From mlists  Thu Jun  3 02:07:35 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 02:07:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 08:48:26PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
> boy i wish i was at the bug and not doing a night shift :(  here is an 
> interesting link regarding monolithic kernels relating to OpenBSD:
> 
> http://kerneltrap.org/comment/reply/3239
> 
> i pretty much agree with alot of the issues raised, but in my industry i 
> need fully funtional 3D drivers provided by nvidia for linux.  yea it 
> sucks that they are not GPL'd, but hey it's better than using NT for 
> Maya....
> 

They seem to have missed one important post on the list.
Here it is, from Kamo Hiroyasu <wd at ics.nara-wu.ac.jp>
"
Chuck, you are misusing the term `monolithic'.  A monolithic kernel
with loadable modules is still a monolithic kernel because the loaded
codes will run on the kernel space.  It is far from a micro kernel.
That implies: you cannot gain any advantage of mocro kernels from
loadable modules.

Please consult any textbook on operating systems for detail.

                Kamo Hiroyasu
                [Kamo is the family name and Hiroyasu the given name.]

"

Therefore, Linux kernel is also monolithic.

I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like binary
only drivers will never be accepted.

-bruno



From pete  Thu Jun  3 02:13:38 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 02:13:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
Message-ID: <40BEC192.1070303@nomadlogic.org>

mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:

>On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 08:48:26PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>>boy i wish i was at the bug and not doing a night shift :(  here is an 
>>interesting link regarding monolithic kernels relating to OpenBSD:
>>
>>http://kerneltrap.org/comment/reply/3239
>>
>>i pretty much agree with alot of the issues raised, but in my industry i 
>>need fully funtional 3D drivers provided by nvidia for linux.  yea it 
>>sucks that they are not GPL'd, but hey it's better than using NT for 
>>Maya....
>>
>>    
>>
>
>They seem to have missed one important post on the list.
>Here it is, from Kamo Hiroyasu <wd at ics.nara-wu.ac.jp>
>"
>Chuck, you are misusing the term `monolithic'.  A monolithic kernel
>with loadable modules is still a monolithic kernel because the loaded
>codes will run on the kernel space.  It is far from a micro kernel.
>That implies: you cannot gain any advantage of mocro kernels from
>loadable modules.
>
>Please consult any textbook on operating systems for detail.
>
>                Kamo Hiroyasu
>                [Kamo is the family name and Hiroyasu the given name.]
>
>"
>
>Therefore, Linux kernel is also monolithic.
>  
>
good point, hence the whole tanenbaum/torvalds split....
-p


>I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like binary
>only drivers will never be accepted.
>
>-bruno
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From scottro  Thu Jun  3 03:36:15 2004
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 03:36:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] A bit more on xorg
Message-ID: <20040603073615.GA15263@scottro11.homeunix.net>

A day or so ago, I asked had anyone been playing with xorg.  Since then,
I've installed it on a few boxe--more out of boredom than any great
political reason, though one gets the general impression that further
advances in X will be through xorg rather than XFree.  

There's a 50 something message thread about it on bsdforums.  The
procedure is actually pretty straightforward.  In the few days it's been
in ports, a few errors have been corrected--for instance, the
xorg-libraries Makefile put Wraphelp in /distfiles/xorg but looked for
it in /distfiles.  

One of the posters in the thread has been having trouble doing the
upgrade in 4.x, but in 5.x, on three test boxes and my main workstation
at work, as well as main workstation at home, it went quite smoothly.  

In a nutshell, one removes XFree installed packages (not without a
certain sense of trepidation, especially on my main workstation)  :)
and wrapper (all needed pkg_delete -f since there are various deps,)
installs in recommended order, and everything has, at least for several
others and myself, been hunky dory.  The wrapper Makefile has to be
edited.  To save folks a bit of searching, the link to the forums thread
is at

www.freebsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21890&highlight=xorg

(sorry about the long url, had to set columns to 76 to get it in.)

Note that the first page of the thread is when it first came out.
Within the last few days, most of the problems have been fixed, and
after removing all XFree stuff and wrapper one simply follows the
instructions at http://bsd-unix.org/xorg.txt

The only other caveat is that one should first cvsup ports, then make
sure your version of expat is the same as that in
/usr/ports/textproc/expat2's Makefile. If not, portupgrade that first,
or you'll get a stop error (I'm sorry, I don't remember where, it only
happened once on one of the 5 boxes.)   

Anyway, hope this is of interest to someone--it's 3:30 am and a
headache is keeping me up so I feel like hearing myself type.   :)



-- 

Scott 

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Giles: It's a trick. They get inside my head, make me see
things I want.
Xander: Then why would they make you see me?
Giles: You're right. Let's go.
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From sunny-ml  Thu Jun  3 09:06:54 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:06:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
Message-ID: <200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 03 June 2004 02:07 am, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:

> They seem to have missed one important post on the list.
> Here it is, from Kamo Hiroyasu <wd at ics.nara-wu.ac.jp>
> "
> Chuck, you are misusing the term `monolithic'.  A monolithic kernel
> with loadable modules is still a monolithic kernel because the loaded
> codes will run on the kernel space.  It is far from a micro kernel.
> That implies: you cannot gain any advantage of mocro kernels from
> loadable modules.
>
> Please consult any textbook on operating systems for detail.
>
>                 Kamo Hiroyasu
>                 [Kamo is the family name and Hiroyasu the given name.]
>
> "
>
> Therefore, Linux kernel is also monolithic.
>

I think that some people are missing the fact that it is possible to get 
around the GPL requirements of the linux kernel.  Essentially what you can 
do is the following:

linux-kernel <---> GPL wrapper <---> binary only module

>From what I've seen, the above is usually the case 99% of the time.  You 
download whatever package and compile the module wrapper against the 
current kernel headers.

Additionally as someone who understands the Mandrake Linux installer 
backwards and forwards [1], I can say that modules become excessively 
helpful especially when you need to distribute generic kernels, or need a 
kernel going for the installation process.

Essentially you can break hardware support down into two categories, the 
first being "mandatory" (stuff that is needed for installation, like 
IDE/SCSI, network cards), and the second "optional" (sound cards, printers, 
etc).  It is the size of the mandatory support that matters greatly because 
at any given time you have limited amount of space to deal with, yet at the 
same time the list of "mandatory" stuff keeps growing and growing.

With the BSDs, the GENERIC kernel essentially supports the mandatory stuff 
with various optional parts left out.  However with linux distros, we like 
to ship a kernel with very basic mandatory stuff, and the rest of the 
mandatory/optional stuff built as modules.  This comes to our advantage for 
various reasons.  The first being that people aren't loading what they 
don't need to be.  (Not that there is anything wrong with loading what you 
don't need, but the less running in kernel space, the better).  Secondly 
(IMO) you are given a chance to load the module with modified arguments as 
opposed to having to manually type such at the bootloader or having GENERIC 
use whatever defaults it was compiled with.  Lastly, modules are helpful 
because in the event there is a bug, or just unsupported hardware, most 
distros will allow you to load your own modules during the installation 
period (this has saved my ass numerous times).

> I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like binary
> only drivers will never be accepted.

I don't see how this is true.

Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only patches are 
very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD license, this 
becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.

Sunny Dubey

[1] http://opencurve.org/~sunny/mandrake/init-startup



From marco  Thu Jun  3 09:25:29 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:25:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
Message-ID: <20040603132529.GD24745@metm.org>

Hello all,

Thanks for a great meeting last night.  It was nice getting to know some
of you guys.  And see more of George's incredible advocacy up close and
personal :^)

I have a problem I mentioned to some of you, and as there are others on
this list who work in mixed unix/mac environments.  I thought I would
ask.

Basically I was confused about mozilla mail's ldap client support for
the address book.  Basically it sucks.  Even though internally mozilla
uses ldap/ldif files for the address book when I set up an openldap sldapd
server to serve out that same information, I found that when getting
the information from an ldap server, you can't get a listing of the
addresses, you can only do searches (searching for empty string didn't
quite work), and most importantly _you can't update the information on
the ldap server_ making my idea pretty much unuseable.  Here is a link
pretty much confirming what I found.

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2004-February/035332.html

Before looking into what could be done to make mozilla better, I don't
have that much time these days... I was wondering if any of you had
experience in this area.  I need an ldap client through which the client
could easily maintain an contact list from mixed OS9/OSX desktops.  I am
starting to think a webapp is the only solution, but cutting and pasting
seems far less useable than a simple 'Add to AddressBook' click from the
email client.

I am physically incapable of recommending an entouage/outlook solution.
The clients have been on netscape/mozilla for years and are quite happy
with the client spam filtering.

For some reason towards the end of this email, I feel like I am asking
for the impossible.

Thanks for any ideas,

-- 
Marco



From mlists  Thu Jun  3 10:11:01 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:11:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:06:54AM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote:
> On Thursday 03 June 2004 02:07 am, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
> 
> > They seem to have missed one important post on the list.
> > Here it is, from Kamo Hiroyasu <wd at ics.nara-wu.ac.jp>
> > "
> > Chuck, you are misusing the term `monolithic'.  A monolithic kernel
> > with loadable modules is still a monolithic kernel because the loaded
> > codes will run on the kernel space.  It is far from a micro kernel.
> > That implies: you cannot gain any advantage of mocro kernels from
> > loadable modules.
> >
> > Please consult any textbook on operating systems for detail.
> >
> >                 Kamo Hiroyasu
> >                 [Kamo is the family name and Hiroyasu the given name.]
> >
> > "
> >
> > Therefore, Linux kernel is also monolithic.
> >
> 
> I think that some people are missing the fact that it is possible to get 
> around the GPL requirements of the linux kernel.  Essentially what you can 
> do is the following:
> 
> linux-kernel <---> GPL wrapper <---> binary only module
> 
> From what I've seen, the above is usually the case 99% of the time.  You 
> download whatever package and compile the module wrapper against the 
> current kernel headers.
> 
> Additionally as someone who understands the Mandrake Linux installer 
> backwards and forwards [1], I can say that modules become excessively 
> helpful especially when you need to distribute generic kernels, or need a 
> kernel going for the installation process.
> 
> Essentially you can break hardware support down into two categories, the 
> first being "mandatory" (stuff that is needed for installation, like 
> IDE/SCSI, network cards), and the second "optional" (sound cards, printers, 
> etc).  It is the size of the mandatory support that matters greatly because 
> at any given time you have limited amount of space to deal with, yet at the 
> same time the list of "mandatory" stuff keeps growing and growing.
> 
> With the BSDs, the GENERIC kernel essentially supports the mandatory stuff 
> with various optional parts left out.  However with linux distros, we like 
> to ship a kernel with very basic mandatory stuff, and the rest of the 
> mandatory/optional stuff built as modules.  This comes to our advantage for 
> various reasons.  The first being that people aren't loading what they 
> don't need to be.  (Not that there is anything wrong with loading what you 
> don't need, but the less running in kernel space, the better).  Secondly 
> (IMO) you are given a chance to load the module with modified arguments as 
> opposed to having to manually type such at the bootloader or having GENERIC 
> use whatever defaults it was compiled with.  Lastly, modules are helpful 
> because in the event there is a bug, or just unsupported hardware, most 
> distros will allow you to load your own modules during the installation 
> period (this has saved my ass numerous times).

Sounds good, someone likes modules, someone doesn't, I only wanted to
point out that even with modules, Linux as a kernel is monolithic.

> 
> > I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like binary
> > only drivers will never be accepted.
> 
> I don't see how this is true.
> 
> Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only patches are 
> very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD license, this 
> becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.

I think binary patches and binary kernel modules are very different.
Unless there is a source, or it complies with OpenBSD goals, they will
not accept anything kernel or userland related. Even with source, and a
bad license, they will not accept it. This is what I meant when I said
the above.
Binary patches patch already what is in the system. My comment only
related to things like binary-only NV drivers, for example.

-bruno




From pete  Thu Jun  3 11:14:05 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 11:14:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] A bit more on xorg
In-Reply-To: <20040603073615.GA15263@scottro11.homeunix.net>
References: <20040603073615.GA15263@scottro11.homeunix.net>
Message-ID: <40BF403D.7070501@nomadlogic.org>

Scott Robbins wrote:

>A day or so ago, I asked had anyone been playing with xorg.  Since then,
>I've installed it on a few boxe--more out of boredom than any great
>political reason, though one gets the general impression that further
>advances in X will be through xorg rather than XFree.  
>
>There's a 50 something message thread about it on bsdforums.  The
>procedure is actually pretty straightforward.  In the few days it's been
>in ports, a few errors have been corrected--for instance, the
>xorg-libraries Makefile put Wraphelp in /distfiles/xorg but looked for
>it in /distfiles.  
>
>One of the posters in the thread has been having trouble doing the
>upgrade in 4.x, but in 5.x, on three test boxes and my main workstation
>at work, as well as main workstation at home, it went quite smoothly.  
>
>In a nutshell, one removes XFree installed packages (not without a
>certain sense of trepidation, especially on my main workstation)  :)
>and wrapper (all needed pkg_delete -f since there are various deps,)
>installs in recommended order, and everything has, at least for several
>others and myself, been hunky dory.  The wrapper Makefile has to be
>edited.  To save folks a bit of searching, the link to the forums thread
>is at
>
>www.freebsdforums.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21890&highlight=xorg
>
>(sorry about the long url, had to set columns to 76 to get it in.)
>
>Note that the first page of the thread is when it first came out.
>Within the last few days, most of the problems have been fixed, and
>after removing all XFree stuff and wrapper one simply follows the
>instructions at http://bsd-unix.org/xorg.txt
>
>The only other caveat is that one should first cvsup ports, then make
>sure your version of expat is the same as that in
>/usr/ports/textproc/expat2's Makefile. If not, portupgrade that first,
>or you'll get a stop error (I'm sorry, I don't remember where, it only
>happened once on one of the 5 boxes.)   
>
>Anyway, hope this is of interest to someone--it's 3:30 am and a
>headache is keeping me up so I feel like hearing myself type.   :)
>
>
>  
>

execellent, do you happen to know the status of GL support with X.org?  
I assume GL and things of that nature are on different layer than 
XFree86.  Is that true?  Also, did your XFree86-4.conf file move over to 
X.org w/o a hassle?

cheers,
    pete



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Thu Jun  3 11:45:52 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:45:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
In-Reply-To: <20040603132529.GD24745@metm.org>
References: <20040603132529.GD24745@metm.org>
Message-ID: <184C674A-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 9:25 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> Basically I was confused about mozilla mail's ldap client support for
> the address book.  Basically it sucks.  Even though internally mozilla
> uses ldap/ldif files for the address book when I set up an openldap 
> sldapd
> server to serve out that same information, I found that when getting
> the information from an ldap server, you can't get a listing of the
> addresses, you can only do searches (searching for empty string didn't
> quite work), and most importantly _you can't update the information on
> the ldap server_ making my idea pretty much unuseable.  Here is a link
> pretty much confirming what I found.

I don't have any recent experience with Mozilla Mail, but in my 5 or 6 
years of LDAP experience both of the issues you bring up have pretty 
much always been a problem with just about all LDAP client software.

-bob
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From bob  Thu Jun  3 11:50:41 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:50:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
Message-ID: <C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:11 AM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:

>>> I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like 
>>> binary
>>> only drivers will never be accepted.
>>
>> I don't see how this is true.
>>
>> Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only patches 
>> are
>> very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD license, 
>> this
>> becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.
>
> I think binary patches and binary kernel modules are very different.
> Unless there is a source, or it complies with OpenBSD goals, they will
> not accept anything kernel or userland related. Even with source, and a
> bad license, they will not accept it. This is what I meant when I said
> the above.
> Binary patches patch already what is in the system. My comment only
> related to things like binary-only NV drivers, for example.

I don't get what you're trying to say here.  Linux won't accept kernel 
modules and patches that aren't GPL either, but it just so happens that 
there are third parties that provide a few binary only drivers.  In the 
case of OpenBSD, you just don't have any interested third parties (that 
I'm aware of).

-bob

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From scottro  Thu Jun  3 12:02:32 2004
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:02:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] A bit more on xorg
In-Reply-To: <40BF403D.7070501@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040603073615.GA15263@scottro11.homeunix.net>
	<40BF403D.7070501@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040603160232.GA1796@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:14:05AM -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
> Scott Robbins wrote:
> 
> >A day or so ago, I asked had anyone been playing with xorg.  Since then,
> >I've installed it on a few boxe--more out of boredom than any great
> >political reason, though one gets the general impression that further
> >advances in X will be through xorg rather than XFree.  
> >
> >
> >Anyway, hope this is of interest to someone--it's 3:30 am and a
> >headache is keeping me up so I feel like hearing myself type.   :)
> >
> 
> execellent, do you happen to know the status of GL support with X.org?  
> I assume GL and things of that nature are on different layer than 
> XFree86.  Is that true?  Also, did your XFree86-4.conf file move over to 
> X.org w/o a hassle?

On my boxes (don't use KDE or Gnome, so don't know if it's a factor) I
have had XF86Config, not Config-4.  Xorg simply uses that config file,
though I should copy it over to xorgconfig or whatever it's called. (I
should probably not copy it till I know.)  :)

Since posting last night, I thought to myself, ok, let's do this one
last box, and have been running into problems.  :)  Still, 5 out of 6
went without difficulty.  I'm afraid I don't know the status of GL
support.


-- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Xander: I can not stress enough how much I don't have plans. 
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From marco  Thu Jun  3 12:10:43 2004
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:10:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
In-Reply-To: <184C674A-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <20040603132529.GD24745@metm.org>
	<184C674A-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040603161043.GO24745@metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:45:52AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> I don't have any recent experience with Mozilla Mail, but in my 5 or 6 
> years of LDAP experience both of the issues you bring up have pretty 
> much always been a problem with just about all LDAP client software.

Being a ldap newbie, this was an unfortunate suprise for me.

gq seems to work nicely.  Not for OS9 though.

-- 
Marco



From pete  Thu Jun  3 12:36:22 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:36:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] A bit more on xorg
In-Reply-To: <20040603160232.GA1796@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>
References: <20040603073615.GA15263@scottro11.homeunix.net>	<40BF403D.7070501@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603160232.GA1796@nyserve1.starlofashions.com>
Message-ID: <40BF5386.2010200@nomadlogic.org>

Scott Robbins wrote:

>
>
>On my boxes (don't use KDE or Gnome, so don't know if it's a factor) I
>have had XF86Config, not Config-4.  Xorg simply uses that config file,
>though I should copy it over to xorgconfig or whatever it's called. (I
>should probably not copy it till I know.)  :)
>
>  
>
cool, can't tell you how much time i've spent tweaking my XF86Config 
files ;)

>Since posting last night, I thought to myself, ok, let's do this one
>last box, and have been running into problems.  :)  Still, 5 out of 6
>went without difficulty.  I'm afraid I don't know the status of GL
>support.
>
>
>  
>
yea 5 outta 6 ain't bad at all, i wish i had the same average with 
XFree865 ;)  thanks!

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Thu Jun  3 12:41:23 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 12:41:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40BF54B3.3020200@nomadlogic.org>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:11 AM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
>
>>>> I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like binary
>>>> only drivers will never be accepted.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see how this is true.
>>>
>>> Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only 
>>> patches are
>>> very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD license, 
>>> this
>>> becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.
>>
>>
>> I think binary patches and binary kernel modules are very different.
>> Unless there is a source, or it complies with OpenBSD goals, they will
>> not accept anything kernel or userland related. Even with source, and a
>> bad license, they will not accept it. This is what I meant when I said
>> the above.
>> Binary patches patch already what is in the system. My comment only
>> related to things like binary-only NV drivers, for example.
>
>
> I don't get what you're trying to say here.  Linux won't accept kernel 
> modules and patches that aren't GPL either, but it just so happens 
> that there are third parties that provide a few binary only drivers.


actually the kernel will accept non-GPL'd lkm's, it will just "taint" 
the kernel and tell you about that at boot time.  the nvidia drivers are 
not GPL'd for example.

> In the case of OpenBSD, you just don't have any interested third 
> parties (that I'm aware of).
>
i don't think the OpenBSD folks want anything to do with non-open source 
drivers for various reasons.  in any event it's 6 or one 1/2 a dozen of 
the other...

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From mlists  Thu Jun  3 13:06:13 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:06:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:50:41AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> 
> On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:11 AM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
> 
> >>>I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like 
> >>>binary
> >>>only drivers will never be accepted.
> >>
> >>I don't see how this is true.
> >>
> >>Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only patches 
> >>are
> >>very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD license, 
> >>this
> >>becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.
> >
> >I think binary patches and binary kernel modules are very different.
> >Unless there is a source, or it complies with OpenBSD goals, they will
> >not accept anything kernel or userland related. Even with source, and a
> >bad license, they will not accept it. This is what I meant when I said
> >the above.
> >Binary patches patch already what is in the system. My comment only
> >related to things like binary-only NV drivers, for example.
> 
> I don't get what you're trying to say here.  Linux won't accept kernel 
> modules and patches that aren't GPL either, but it just so happens that 
> there are third parties that provide a few binary only drivers.  In the 
> case of OpenBSD, you just don't have any interested third parties (that 
> I'm aware of).

As far as I know, GPL means you have to release the source, and since
there is no source for NVidia, they must not be GPL. I'm guessing, so
you might be right. They might be LGPL or whatever, to allow such
drivers to link against the kernel. I don't know how it works. I know
there is no source for NV module driver from NVidia.

I'm trying to say this. If NVidia writes a driver for OpenBSD, and
releases it in a binary-only form, they will not accept it.

-bruno



From bob  Thu Jun  3 13:40:33 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:40:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <40BF54B3.3020200@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40BF54B3.3020200@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <1D934E6C-B585-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:11 AM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like 
>>>>> binary
>>>>> only drivers will never be accepted.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how this is true.
>>>>
>>>> Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only 
>>>> patches are
>>>> very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD 
>>>> license, this
>>>> becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think binary patches and binary kernel modules are very different.
>>> Unless there is a source, or it complies with OpenBSD goals, they 
>>> will
>>> not accept anything kernel or userland related. Even with source, 
>>> and a
>>> bad license, they will not accept it. This is what I meant when I 
>>> said
>>> the above.
>>> Binary patches patch already what is in the system. My comment only
>>> related to things like binary-only NV drivers, for example.
>>
>>
>> I don't get what you're trying to say here.  Linux won't accept 
>> kernel modules and patches that aren't GPL either, but it just so 
>> happens that there are third parties that provide a few binary only 
>> drivers.
>
>
> actually the kernel will accept non-GPL'd lkm's, it will just "taint" 
> the kernel and tell you about that at boot time.  the nvidia drivers 
> are not GPL'd for example.
>
>> In the case of OpenBSD, you just don't have any interested third 
>> parties (that I'm aware of).
>>
> i don't think the OpenBSD folks want anything to do with non-open 
> source drivers for various reasons.  in any event it's 6 or one 1/2 a 
> dozen of the other...

The Linux kernel and OpenBSD kernels will link with whatever the heck 
you want them to link to because *you have the source* to the kernel.  
I still don't get what you're trying to say.  Neither Linux nor OpenBSD 
will allow inappropriately licensed code to become part of the kernel 
tree proper, but they have no control over whether or not proprietary 
code that can link to the respective kernel (runtime or otherwise, they 
could provide a .o file in the case of a static kernel) is allowed to 
exist.

OpenBSD is actually more open, legally, to proprietary code.  I could, 
tomorrow, start my own proprietary binary-only "ClosedBSD" operating 
system consisting of 99.99% OpenBSD and 0.01% modified code and I 
wouldn't be infringing on anyone's copyright because the BSD license 
allows me to do this.  I couldn't legally do the same thing with Linux, 
because then I wouldn't be complying to the terms of the GPL and would 
be infringing a lot of copyrights.

-bob
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From sunny-ml  Thu Jun  3 14:03:11 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:03:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <40BF54B3.3020200@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40BF54B3.3020200@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200406031403.11419.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 03 June 2004 12:41 pm, Pete Wright wrote:

> > I don't get what you're trying to say here.  Linux won't accept kernel
> > modules and patches that aren't GPL either, but it just so happens
> > that there are third parties that provide a few binary only drivers.
>
> actually the kernel will accept non-GPL'd lkm's, it will just "taint"
> the kernel and tell you about that at boot time.  the nvidia drivers are
> not GPL'd for example.

I think we are all talking about different things when we speak about 
"accepting" binary only code.

The linux kernel will load binary only modules (and/or its wrapper) and it 
will complain.

However binary only modules will never be accepted into the main linux 
kernel tree for obvious reasons.  (binary only firmware is a different 
story)

> > In the case of OpenBSD, you just don't have any interested third
> > parties (that I'm aware of).
>
> i don't think the OpenBSD folks want anything to do with non-open source
> drivers for various reasons.  in any event it's 6 or one 1/2 a dozen of
> the other...

The decision of OpenBSD's liking or disliking of binary only code is not 
theirs.  It is up to the other third party to choose if they want to create 
such drivers (obviously these drivers will never make it close to the main 
kernel tree).

Sunny Dubey



From bob  Thu Jun  3 13:52:16 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:52:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>
Message-ID: <C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 1:06 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:50:41AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:11 AM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> I'm very gratefull for OpenBSD's integrity, meaning things like
>>>>> binary
>>>>> only drivers will never be accepted.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how this is true.
>>>>
>>>> Sure binary only modules may not be possible, but binary only 
>>>> patches
>>>> are
>>>> very much possible.  Additionally thanks to the liberal BSD license,
>>>> this
>>>> becomes more so possible as opposed to the requirements of the GPL.
>>>
>>> I think binary patches and binary kernel modules are very different.
>>> Unless there is a source, or it complies with OpenBSD goals, they 
>>> will
>>> not accept anything kernel or userland related. Even with source, 
>>> and a
>>> bad license, they will not accept it. This is what I meant when I 
>>> said
>>> the above.
>>> Binary patches patch already what is in the system. My comment only
>>> related to things like binary-only NV drivers, for example.
>>
>> I don't get what you're trying to say here.  Linux won't accept kernel
>> modules and patches that aren't GPL either, but it just so happens 
>> that
>> there are third parties that provide a few binary only drivers.  In 
>> the
>> case of OpenBSD, you just don't have any interested third parties 
>> (that
>> I'm aware of).
>
> As far as I know, GPL means you have to release the source, and since
> there is no source for NVidia, they must not be GPL. I'm guessing, so
> you might be right. They might be LGPL or whatever, to allow such
> drivers to link against the kernel. I don't know how it works. I know
> there is no source for NV module driver from NVidia.

No, the Linux kernel is GPL, but does allow for *runtime* linking of 
closed code.  There was a big dispute over whether or not this was 
allowed by the GPL, but Linus decreed that vendors should be allowed to 
do this, so they can with certain limitations.

> I'm trying to say this. If NVidia writes a driver for OpenBSD, and
> releases it in a binary-only form, they will not accept it.

NVidia's drivers aren't "accepted" by Linux either.  They are however 
legally allowed to exist, and perhaps some distributions of Linux 
include them for the convenience of the users.

OpenBSD's license allows you to do more or less whatever you want, 
including linking in proprietary drivers.  The reason they don't exist 
is just because nobody has written them.  If I were to release some 
distribution of OpenBSD, I would be allowed to include whatever 
proprietary code I want in whatever form I so choose regardless of how 
it's linked to other code, because the BSD license is open to such 
scenarios.

-bob
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From mlists  Thu Jun  3 14:52:25 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:52:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040603185225.GP7939@bizintegrators.com>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 01:52:16PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> NVidia's drivers aren't "accepted" by Linux either.  They are however 
> legally allowed to exist, and perhaps some distributions of Linux 
> include them for the convenience of the users.
> 
> OpenBSD's license allows you to do more or less whatever you want, 
> including linking in proprietary drivers.  The reason they don't exist 
> is just because nobody has written them.  If I were to release some 
> distribution of OpenBSD, I would be allowed to include whatever 
> proprietary code I want in whatever form I so choose regardless of how 
> it's linked to other code, because the BSD license is open to such 
> scenarios.

Yes, but that would be BobBSD.




From bob  Thu Jun  3 14:56:44 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:56:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603185225.GP7939@bizintegrators.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603185225.GP7939@bizintegrators.com>
Message-ID: <C1E1E9BE-B58F-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 2:52 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 01:52:16PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> NVidia's drivers aren't "accepted" by Linux either.  They are however
>> legally allowed to exist, and perhaps some distributions of Linux
>> include them for the convenience of the users.
>>
>> OpenBSD's license allows you to do more or less whatever you want,
>> including linking in proprietary drivers.  The reason they don't exist
>> is just because nobody has written them.  If I were to release some
>> distribution of OpenBSD, I would be allowed to include whatever
>> proprietary code I want in whatever form I so choose regardless of how
>> it's linked to other code, because the BSD license is open to such
>> scenarios.
>
> Yes, but that would be BobBSD.

Exactly.  Linux is just the kernel, and the kernel team definitely does 
not "accept" anything that is not compatible with their license.  It's 
the distributions (none of which are called just Linux) that choose 
whether or not to "accept" proprietary kernel modules.

-bob


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From mlists  Thu Jun  3 15:18:43 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:18:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <C1E1E9BE-B58F-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603185225.GP7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<C1E1E9BE-B58F-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040603191843.GQ7939@bizintegrators.com>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:56:44PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> 
> On Jun 3, 2004, at 2:52 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 01:52:16PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> >>NVidia's drivers aren't "accepted" by Linux either.  They are however
> >>legally allowed to exist, and perhaps some distributions of Linux
> >>include them for the convenience of the users.
> >>
> >>OpenBSD's license allows you to do more or less whatever you want,
> >>including linking in proprietary drivers.  The reason they don't exist
> >>is just because nobody has written them.  If I were to release some
> >>distribution of OpenBSD, I would be allowed to include whatever
> >>proprietary code I want in whatever form I so choose regardless of how
> >>it's linked to other code, because the BSD license is open to such
> >>scenarios.
> >
> >Yes, but that would be BobBSD.
> 
> Exactly.  Linux is just the kernel, and the kernel team definitely does 
> not "accept" anything that is not compatible with their license.  It's 
> the distributions (none of which are called just Linux) that choose 
> whether or not to "accept" proprietary kernel modules.
> 

OK, all I said was that I was happy that this was not included in
OpenBSD, the system (on project level, not the kernel. I assumed it
would be compared to a Linux distro, not Linux-the-kernel.




From pete  Thu Jun  3 15:27:02 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:27:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603191843.GQ7939@bizintegrators.com>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>	<C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040603185225.GP7939@bizintegrators.com>	<C1E1E9BE-B58F-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603191843.GQ7939@bizintegrators.com>
Message-ID: <40BF7B86.9040604@nomadlogic.org>

mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:

>On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:56:44PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>  
>
>>On Jun 3, 2004, at 2:52 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 01:52:16PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>NVidia's drivers aren't "accepted" by Linux either.  They are however
>>>>legally allowed to exist, and perhaps some distributions of Linux
>>>>include them for the convenience of the users.
>>>>
>>>>OpenBSD's license allows you to do more or less whatever you want,
>>>>including linking in proprietary drivers.  The reason they don't exist
>>>>is just because nobody has written them.  If I were to release some
>>>>distribution of OpenBSD, I would be allowed to include whatever
>>>>proprietary code I want in whatever form I so choose regardless of how
>>>>it's linked to other code, because the BSD license is open to such
>>>>scenarios.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Yes, but that would be BobBSD.
>>>      
>>>
>>Exactly.  Linux is just the kernel, and the kernel team definitely does 
>>not "accept" anything that is not compatible with their license.  It's 
>>the distributions (none of which are called just Linux) that choose 
>>whether or not to "accept" proprietary kernel modules.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>OK, all I said was that I was happy that this was not included in
>OpenBSD, the system (on project level, not the kernel. I assumed it
>would be compared to a Linux distro, not Linux-the-kernel.
>
>  
>
yea this is crazy.  this bantering doesn't even relate to the 
article/thread either :(  i was hoping people would more interested in 
the micro v. monolithic kernel issues, esp. seeing that apple has 
adopted MACH.  sigh.

-p

>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From elric  Thu Jun  3 16:15:37 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 16:15:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:27:02 EDT."
	<40BF7B86.9040604@nomadlogic.org> 
Message-ID: <20040603201537.8781B174C6@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086290822 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Pete Wright wrote:
>

>yea this is crazy.  this bantering doesn't even relate to the 
>article/thread either :(  i was hoping people would more interested in 
>the micro v. monolithic kernel issues, esp. seeing that apple has 
>adopted MACH.  sigh.

Well, the thread pointed to wasn't talking about micro vs. monolithic
kernels, it was just talking about LKMs which are substantially
less interesting.

It did have an assertion that I think is rather suspect, in that
it claimed that a fully LKMed system would outperform a non-LKMed
implementation.  This, I think is a false statement.  Using LKMs
you can save memory, but it does not speed up execution at all.
In fact, it slows execution down.  It is done simply for convenience
(some definition thereof, sure.)

E.g. by not using LKMs, one can have #ifdef's in multiple places in
the code that all depend on a single feature being active.  As in,
if I do not want a packet filter in my kernel, then I do not define

options PFIL_HOOKS

and the if statement that checks to see if there are any registered
packet filters that need to be called is elided from the resulting
kernel.  This sort of thing makes execution faster.  It's a cheap
form of global optimisation.  If we had C compilers that performed
reasonable global optimisation then LKMs would be a bit more of a
penalty (but I do not think that we do.)

[of course that last bit doesn't apply to OpenBSD because although
 they offer the functionality I outlined they do not `support' it.
 NetBSD does support kernels with modified config files.]

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From bob  Thu Jun  3 16:43:52 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:43:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <40BF7B86.9040604@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40BE836A.7020104@nomadlogic.org>	<20040603060735.GL7939@bizintegrators.com>	<200406030906.55298.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>	<20040603141101.GN7939@bizintegrators.com>	<C40D9EFF-B575-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040603170613.GO7939@bizintegrators.com>	<C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040603185225.GP7939@bizintegrators.com>	<C1E1E9BE-B58F-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040603191843.GQ7939@bizintegrators.com>
	<40BF7B86.9040604@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <B964868F-B59E-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 3:27 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> yea this is crazy.  this bantering doesn't even relate to the 
> article/thread either :(  i was hoping people would more interested in 
> the micro v. monolithic kernel issues, esp. seeing that apple has 
> adopted MACH.  sigh.

Personally I prefer microkernel architectures because they're easier to 
work with (as a developer).  They also offer loads of practical and 
theoretical advantages.  The discussion in the article is really about 
modular versus static (an implementation detail), not micro versus 
monolithic (a major architectural decision).

The security argument is kind of silly, because if that really was a 
concern you could add a sysctl that lets you turn module loading off 
(forever) at runtime.  So you boot up, load your modules, and turn 
module loading off.  In practice, nobody really does this (as far as I 
know) because only root can load kernel modules and root can do 
whatever he wants anyway, whether or not the kernel is split into 1 or 
1000 pieces.

The supported configuration argument is also silly.  The only 
difference is that OpenBSD is only configurable at compile time, where 
others are configurable at runtime.  Since it is open source software, 
the user is still free to alter (or more likely, NOT alter) that 
configuration in both cases.

However, with the development tools we have today, static kernels can 
offer several obvious slight advantages.
- marginally better performance on average
- easier to install/upgrade (just one file)
- can be easier to debug with tools that don't know what kernel modules 
are (the addresses of symbols never change)

All three of these are minor though.  The latter two are solved with 
better tools (that pretty much already exist), while fixing the first 
could be lifted with a lot of work by using JIT techniques.. but it 
would be really hard to implement correctly and the performance 
improvement is very marginal.

-bob
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From mikel.king  Thu Jun  3 17:25:00 2004
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:25:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
Message-ID: <20040603212550.6F82DA85FE@virtu.nyphp.org>

Marco,

  I recall a project add on for Mozilla that was to access MySql...I am unfortunately not able to pull up my notes on this right now but I will get back to you later tonite. I also remember that the project might have been convrted to an ADO so the any supported db could be accessed...obviously all of this is mute if you are not upto learning xul...but (I know I'm rambling) the was yet another project to bind php as well as another for python scripting directly into M.

I have long held the position that ldap is not the best for contact management. (!flame bait, just MY opinion). 

marco at metm.org wrote:
__________
>[Body not available. Message moved or deleted on server]




From elric  Thu Jun  3 17:34:10 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:34:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 16:43:52 EDT."
	<B964868F-B59E-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> 
Message-ID: <20040603213410.A3FE0174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086295432 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Bob Ippolito wrote:
>

>The security argument is kind of silly, because if that really was a 
>concern you could add a sysctl that lets you turn module loading off 
>(forever) at runtime.  So you boot up, load your modules, and turn 
>module loading off.  In practice, nobody really does this (as far as I 
>know) because only root can load kernel modules and root can do 
>whatever he wants anyway, whether or not the kernel is split into 1 or 
>1000 pieces.

There are things that you do not want to allow even root to do
without dropping into single user mode on the console.  And you
have to disable LKM loading in order to get there.  E.g. on NetBSD
in secure level > 0, root cannot grovel the PCI bus and directly
access hardware, write to immutable files, etc.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From bob  Thu Jun  3 17:49:47 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:49:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: <20040603213410.A3FE0174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20040603213410.A3FE0174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <EE8F6759-B5A7-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 5:34 PM, Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:

> On 1086295432 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>
>> The security argument is kind of silly, because if that really was a
>> concern you could add a sysctl that lets you turn module loading off
>> (forever) at runtime.  So you boot up, load your modules, and turn
>> module loading off.  In practice, nobody really does this (as far as I
>> know) because only root can load kernel modules and root can do
>> whatever he wants anyway, whether or not the kernel is split into 1 or
>> 1000 pieces.
>
> There are things that you do not want to allow even root to do
> without dropping into single user mode on the console.  And you
> have to disable LKM loading in order to get there.  E.g. on NetBSD
> in secure level > 0, root cannot grovel the PCI bus and directly
> access hardware, write to immutable files, etc.

Sure, but that is completely orthogonal to *having* LKM.  It's very 
easy to have a kill-switch sysctl that turns it off until the next 
reboot.

-bob
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From bob  Thu Jun  3 17:52:19 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:52:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
In-Reply-To: <20040603212550.6F82DA85FE@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <20040603212550.6F82DA85FE@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <497E4F35-B5A8-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 5:25 PM, Mikel King wrote:

>   I recall a project add on for Mozilla that was to access MySql...I 
> am unfortunately not able to pull up my notes on this right now but I 
> will get back to you later tonite. I also remember that the project 
> might have been convrted to an ADO so the any supported db could be 
> accessed...obviously all of this is mute if you are not upto learning 
> xul...but (I know I'm rambling) the was yet another project to bind 
> php as well as another for python scripting directly into M.
>
> I have long held the position that ldap is not the best for contact 
> management. (!flame bait, just MY opinion).

... and why is some custom SQL stuff that only mozilla understands 
better?

-bob
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From elric  Thu Jun  3 18:01:55 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:01:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:49:47 EDT."
	<EE8F6759-B5A7-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> 
Message-ID: <20040603220155.B6768174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086299387 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Bob Ippolito wrote:
>

>On Jun 3, 2004, at 5:34 PM, Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:
>
>> On 1086295432 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
>> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> The security argument is kind of silly, because if that really was a
>>> concern you could add a sysctl that lets you turn module loading off
>>> (forever) at runtime.  So you boot up, load your modules, and turn
>>> module loading off.  In practice, nobody really does this (as far as I
>>> know) because only root can load kernel modules and root can do
>>> whatever he wants anyway, whether or not the kernel is split into 1 or
>>> 1000 pieces.
>>
>> There are things that you do not want to allow even root to do
>> without dropping into single user mode on the console.  And you
>> have to disable LKM loading in order to get there.  E.g. on NetBSD
>> in secure level > 0, root cannot grovel the PCI bus and directly
>> access hardware, write to immutable files, etc.
>
>Sure, but that is completely orthogonal to *having* LKM.  It's very 
>easy to have a kill-switch sysctl that turns it off until the next 
>reboot.

Yes, of course.  I was just pointing out that one of your assertions,
``root can do whatever he wants anyway'' is not entirely accurate.
I was not arguing that a switch to turn off LKM loading would not
solve the issue, in fact that's how NetBSD deals with it.  LKMs
are not allowed to be loaded or unloaded in securelevel > 0.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From pete  Thu Jun  3 18:06:02 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:06:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603220155.B6768174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20040603220155.B6768174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <40BFA0CA.2020607@nomadlogic.org>

Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:

>On 1086299387 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
>Bob Ippolito wrote:
>  
>
>
>  
>
>>On Jun 3, 2004, at 5:34 PM, Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On 1086295432 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
>>>Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>The security argument is kind of silly, because if that really was a
>>>>concern you could add a sysctl that lets you turn module loading off
>>>>(forever) at runtime.  So you boot up, load your modules, and turn
>>>>module loading off.  In practice, nobody really does this (as far as I
>>>>know) because only root can load kernel modules and root can do
>>>>whatever he wants anyway, whether or not the kernel is split into 1 or
>>>>1000 pieces.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>There are things that you do not want to allow even root to do
>>>without dropping into single user mode on the console.  And you
>>>have to disable LKM loading in order to get there.  E.g. on NetBSD
>>>in secure level > 0, root cannot grovel the PCI bus and directly
>>>access hardware, write to immutable files, etc.
>>>      
>>>
>>Sure, but that is completely orthogonal to *having* LKM.  It's very 
>>easy to have a kill-switch sysctl that turns it off until the next 
>>reboot.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, of course.  I was just pointing out that one of your assertions,
>``root can do whatever he wants anyway'' is not entirely accurate.
>I was not arguing that a switch to turn off LKM loading would not
>solve the issue, in fact that's how NetBSD deals with it.  LKMs
>are not allowed to be loaded or unloaded in securelevel > 0.
>  
>

how does setting the securelevel in NetBSD work?  i'm not very familiar 
with it :(  Is this a boot time option, or kernel compiletime option?  
I'd assume setting security levels ala sysctl would not be the best 
thing.  If someone get's root, then can alter sysctl parms. etc....

-p


>--
>    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From elric  Thu Jun  3 18:12:30 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:12:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:06:02 EDT."
	<40BFA0CA.2020607@nomadlogic.org> 
Message-ID: <20040603221230.B0228174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086300362 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Pete Wright wrote:
>

>how does setting the securelevel in NetBSD work?  i'm not very familiar 
>with it :(  Is this a boot time option, or kernel compiletime option?  
>I'd assume setting security levels ala sysctl would not be the best 
>thing.  If someone get's root, then can alter sysctl parms. etc....

It's a raiseonly sysctl.  So, you don't get to lower it.

The levels are roughly described in NetBSD's init(8) man page.

The concept comes from 4.4BSD, IIRC, so it should also be present
in {Free,Open}BSD.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From pete  Thu Jun  3 19:32:42 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:32:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels
In-Reply-To: <20040603221230.B0228174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20040603221230.B0228174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <40BFB51A.3060306@nomadlogic.org>

Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:

>On 1086300362 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
>Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>
>  
>
>>how does setting the securelevel in NetBSD work?  i'm not very familiar 
>>with it :(  Is this a boot time option, or kernel compiletime option?  
>>I'd assume setting security levels ala sysctl would not be the best 
>>thing.  If someone get's root, then can alter sysctl parms. etc....
>>    
>>
>
>It's a raiseonly sysctl.  So, you don't get to lower it.
>
>The levels are roughly described in NetBSD's init(8) man page.
>
>The concept comes from 4.4BSD, IIRC, so it should also be present
>in {Free,Open}BSD.
>
>--
>    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/
>  
>
thanks!

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bsd  Thu Jun  3 18:34:16 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:34:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.2/Apache/PHP/SquirrelMail
Message-ID: <000801c449ba$e86d2bf0$0600a8c0@olympus>

All,

I just finished adding Apache 1.3.29 + MOD SSL with PHP 4.3.4 and SquirrelMail v1.4.2 .  The problem is twofold:

1.  PHP pages are being displayed as normal text (code) rather than being interpreted by the browser.
2. After configuring SSL and creating the certificates, I receive the following error when I try to sign the certs by my own CA.  Here's the error:

The Subject's Distinguished Name is as follows
countryName           :PRINTABLE:'US'
stateOrProvinceName   :PRINTABLE:'New Jersey'
localityName          :PRINTABLE:'Hawthorne'
organizationName      :PRINTABLE:'Geekis-Kahn.net'
commonName            :PRINTABLE:'Kevin Reiter'
emailAddress          :IA5STRING:'kevin at geekis-kahn.net'
Certificate is to be certified until Jun  3 20:02:45 2005 GMT (365 days)
Sign the certificate? [y/n]:y
failed to update database
TXT_DB error number 2
CA verifying: server.crt <-> CA cert
unable to load certificate
17679:error:0906D06C:PEM routines:PEM_read_bio:no start line:/usr/src/crypto/openssl/crypto/pem/pem_lib.c:632:Expecting: TRUSTED CERTIFICATE
root at mail# uname -a
FreeBSD mail.geekis-kahn.net 5.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 5.2-RELEASE

I can provide the .conf files for anyone to look over to see if/where I screwed up.  Google results didn't really have anything I could find useful.  The weird thing is, I've done this on another server and everything works just fine.  I even tried copying the files over to the new server, and I get the same results.

Any ideas?

-Kev





From bob  Thu Jun  3 18:41:55 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:41:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: <20040603220155.B6768174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20040603220155.B6768174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <3741DABE-B5AF-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:

> On 1086299387 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>
>> On Jun 3, 2004, at 5:34 PM, Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:
>>
>>> On 1086295432 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
>>> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>> The security argument is kind of silly, because if that really was a
>>>> concern you could add a sysctl that lets you turn module loading off
>>>> (forever) at runtime.  So you boot up, load your modules, and turn
>>>> module loading off.  In practice, nobody really does this (as far 
>>>> as I
>>>> know) because only root can load kernel modules and root can do
>>>> whatever he wants anyway, whether or not the kernel is split into 1 
>>>> or
>>>> 1000 pieces.
>>>
>>> There are things that you do not want to allow even root to do
>>> without dropping into single user mode on the console.  And you
>>> have to disable LKM loading in order to get there.  E.g. on NetBSD
>>> in secure level > 0, root cannot grovel the PCI bus and directly
>>> access hardware, write to immutable files, etc.
>>
>> Sure, but that is completely orthogonal to *having* LKM.  It's very
>> easy to have a kill-switch sysctl that turns it off until the next
>> reboot.
>
> Yes, of course.  I was just pointing out that one of your assertions,
> ``root can do whatever he wants anyway'' is not entirely accurate.
> I was not arguing that a switch to turn off LKM loading would not
> solve the issue, in fact that's how NetBSD deals with it.  LKMs
> are not allowed to be loaded or unloaded in securelevel > 0.

Well, I know that root isn't ring 0, but you can do a whole lot of 
nasty stuff like rewrite the boot loader and reboot, or read/write 
memory in other proceses, shutdown the machine, wipe the partition 
table, etc.  I'm not familiar enough with the implementation of the 
*BSDs to know whether or not they try and disable any of these things 
given an appropriate security setting.

-bob
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From sunny-ml  Thu Jun  3 19:00:56 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:00:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.2/Apache/PHP/SquirrelMail
In-Reply-To: <000801c449ba$e86d2bf0$0600a8c0@olympus>
References: <000801c449ba$e86d2bf0$0600a8c0@olympus>
Message-ID: <200406031900.57034.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 03 June 2004 06:34 pm, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> All,
>
> I just finished adding Apache 1.3.29 + MOD SSL with PHP 4.3.4 and
> SquirrelMail v1.4.2 .  The problem is twofold:
>
> 1.  PHP pages are being displayed as normal text (code) rather than being
> interpreted by the browser.

you need to add the following to your httpd.conf file:

LoadModule php4_module	modules/libphp4.so
AddType					application/x-httpd-php .php

(the above assumes php was built as a module, if it was built statically I 
believe that u can simply omit the first line. (u will need to restart 
apache)

dunno about your second problem

Sunny Dubey



From jromero  Thu Jun  3 19:03:56 2004
From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:03:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] emacs21 port on freebsd 4.10 release??
Message-ID: <1086303836.69683.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>

anybody know what happened to the emacs21 port under 4.10 release??




From pete  Thu Jun  3 19:09:32 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:09:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] emacs21 port on freebsd 4.10 release??
In-Reply-To: <1086303836.69683.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>
References: <1086303836.69683.1.camel@mail.save-ferris.com>
Message-ID: <40BFAFAC.1060809@nomadlogic.org>

Jeronimo Romero wrote:

>anybody know what happened to the emacs21 port under 4.10 release??
>  
>

does it not compile?  i have it in my ports tree....
-p

>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From elric  Thu Jun  3 19:02:12 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:02:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:41:55 EDT."
	<3741DABE-B5AF-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> 
Message-ID: <20040603230212.7CDF8174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086302515 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Bob Ippolito wrote:
>

>Well, I know that root isn't ring 0, but you can do a whole lot of 
>nasty stuff like rewrite the boot loader and reboot, or read/write 
>memory in other proceses, shutdown the machine, wipe the partition 
>table, etc.  I'm not familiar enough with the implementation of the 
>*BSDs to know whether or not they try and disable any of these things 
>given an appropriate security setting.

They do.  In high enough secure level, you cannot write to disks
except through the file-system code, and cannot upgrade read-only
mounts to read-write mounts, etc., etc.  You can still do a reasonable
amount of damage, but if the system with some level of care it can
be difficult to compromise---that is either by careful use of
immutable flags, or by simply mounting most of the file-systems
read-only.

Of course you can shutdown the machine, but that's not much of a
problem.

Securelevel 2 is a relatively specialised setup and doesn't make
sense for end-user machines.  It's mostly useful for servers that
need to be highly secure.

One of the major problems is that the XF86 people insist that they
need to have direct access to the PCI bus and hence you cannot
increase the securelevel beyond 0 if you want to run X which is a
little unfortunate.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From bob  Thu Jun  3 19:24:19 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:24:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: <20040603230212.7CDF8174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20040603230212.7CDF8174C7@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <23C6623C-B5B5-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:02 PM, Roland C. Dowdeswell wrote:

> On 1086302515 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>
>> Well, I know that root isn't ring 0, but you can do a whole lot of
>> nasty stuff like rewrite the boot loader and reboot, or read/write
>> memory in other proceses, shutdown the machine, wipe the partition
>> table, etc.  I'm not familiar enough with the implementation of the
>> *BSDs to know whether or not they try and disable any of these things
>> given an appropriate security setting.
>
> They do.  In high enough secure level, you cannot write to disks
> except through the file-system code, and cannot upgrade read-only
> mounts to read-write mounts, etc., etc.  You can still do a reasonable
> amount of damage, but if the system with some level of care it can
> be difficult to compromise---that is either by careful use of
> immutable flags, or by simply mounting most of the file-systems
> read-only.
>
> Of course you can shutdown the machine, but that's not much of a
> problem.

Sounds like a lot of work for a little real benefit.  Let's imagine for 
a second that I'm running an email server that I would like to be 
highly secure.  By some hook or crook, an attacker gets uid 0 on my 
highly secure machine.  They decide it would be funny to wipe out all 
of my mail spools and start sending spam.  Everything I wanted that 
machine to do is now ruined, and I need to wipe the disk and restore 
from tape or start over.  What's really left to protect if userspace is 
hosed?  I'm not sure if I should care whether or not they can talk on 
the PCI bus.

If my application *was* the kernel, maybe I'd care, but a kernel really 
isn't very useful on its own :)

-bob
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From george  Thu Jun  3 19:32:52 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:32:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Woah. . .
Message-ID: <553AF06A-B5B6-11D8-885E-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Okay, so first about the meeting last night. . .

Our smallest yet, a little under 20 faces made appearances, but again, 
it seemed discussion was good and the bar conversations were good.

Of course, somewhere around 4 am, my iBook dropped out of my backpack 
and broke that all important delete key.  I'm convinced that drinking 
and driving mix better than drinking and technology.

I also received a couple of important shipments today.

First I got a copy of Dru Lavigne's BSD Hacks that I'm going to review 
for Daemon News and possibly try to get it up on Slashdot.

Then, but a few hours later, I received a box of five BSD Hacks from 
ORA, and one copy of Michael Lucas' Absolute BSD.

Mr. Genoverly, figure out how you want to distribute these books, and 
we'll do an exchange when it's possible.

Whoever takes gets the books should also be required to do reviews, for 
Amazon, B&N, and our site (status?).

Also, we collected $113 dollars at the meeting, plus $3 more from a Ron 
at Tekserve, then an additional $10 from Bob. . .for Dan Langille's 
laptop replacement.  That's a total of $126 for Dan, US Dollars.  The 
check for that amount will go out tomorrow.

Dan, I know it's not everything, but it's at least something.

g




From bsd  Thu Jun  3 19:35:04 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:35:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.2/Apache/PHP/SquirrelMail
References: <000801c449ba$e86d2bf0$0600a8c0@olympus>
	<200406031900.57034.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <002901c449c3$66080af0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>

> you need to add the following to your httpd.conf file:
> 
> LoadModule php4_module modules/libphp4.so
> AddType application/x-httpd-php .php

That did the trick.  Thanks!




From elric  Thu Jun  3 14:46:38 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:46:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 13:52:16 EDT."
	<C063843C-B586-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> 
Message-ID: <20040603184638.A38BF174C5@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086285136 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Bob Ippolito wrote:
>

>> As far as I know, GPL means you have to release the source, and since
>> there is no source for NVidia, they must not be GPL. I'm guessing, so
>> you might be right. They might be LGPL or whatever, to allow such
>> drivers to link against the kernel. I don't know how it works. I know
>> there is no source for NV module driver from NVidia.
>
>No, the Linux kernel is GPL, but does allow for *runtime* linking of 
>closed code.  There was a big dispute over whether or not this was 
>allowed by the GPL, but Linus decreed that vendors should be allowed to 
>do this, so they can with certain limitations.

Actually, unless Linus demands that all copyrights be assigned to
him of all contributed code like the FSF does, he is not in a
position to make any such statement.  Any contributor to Linux
could in principal sue NVidia for violating _his_ GPLed code and
Linus would not have anything [legally] to say about it.  He might
be called as a witness, and perhaps NVidia could make the case that
by contributing to Linux under the GPL one has tacitly accepted
Linus' interpretation of the GPL (which is not the same as RMS').
But that's not necessarily going to help.  Also, no one actually
runs linux.  People run Red Hat or SuSe or Yellow Cat or whatnot.
All of these take the kernel as distributed from Linus and apply
tens of MB worth of patches on it before shipping it.  So, there
is even more confusion about who owns what and who can sue whom
about GPL violations.  One presumes that the people whose code ends
up in these patchballs have not even tacitly agreed with Linus'
decrees about what the GPL actually means.

Effectively though, the GPL hasn't held up in court yet and so all
of this is just a risk as far as companies such as NVidia are
concerned.  The ``GPL wrappers'' are most likely their way of
convincing themselves that they are ameliorating the risk adequately.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From george  Thu Jun  3 20:09:50 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:09:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] collection for Dan Langille
Message-ID: <7EF6220C-B5BB-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Sorry I didn't mention it, but the collection of $126 dollars was for 
Dan Langille.  His laptop and some cards had been stolen.

Please contact me off list if you want to contribute. . .

g




From marco  Thu Jun  3 20:19:26 2004
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:19:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
In-Reply-To: <20040603212545.566FD80F9@mail.metm.org>
References: <20040603212545.566FD80F9@mail.metm.org>
Message-ID: <20040604001926.GB24745@metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 05:25:00PM -0400, Mikel King wrote:
> Marco,
> 
>   I recall a project add on for Mozilla that was to access MySql...I
>   am unfortunately not able to pull up my notes on this right now but
>   I will get back to you later tonite. I also remember that the
>   project might have been convrted to an ADO so the any supported db
>   could be accessed...obviously all of this is mute if you are not
>   upto learning xul...but (I know I'm rambling) the was yet another
>   project to bind php as well as another for python scripting directly
>   into M.

Thanks Mikel,

I've been thinking of attacking the xul.  As I said I think having a
button in the mailclient would be a much more attractive solution than
suggesting they cut and paste into a web-app.

I am already planning another migration of the FileMakerPro contacts
database which was out of sync with the Mozilla addressbook.  My plan
was to put the address book into ldap (which didn't work like I
expected) and then evaluate whether SQL or ldap was a better
replacement.  I already got the FilemakerPro stuff into a format similar
to the Mozilla AddressBook, but the client issues with ldap are
worrisome.

I am certainly interested in any XUL work in the contacts database area.
For lack of time, I have not yet gone on an extensive search through the
mozilla extensions.

-- 
Marco



From bob  Thu Jun  3 20:27:18 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:27:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
In-Reply-To: <20040604001926.GB24745@metm.org>
References: <20040603212545.566FD80F9@mail.metm.org>
	<20040604001926.GB24745@metm.org>
Message-ID: <EFF997B5-B5BD-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:19 PM, Marco Scoffier wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 05:25:00PM -0400, Mikel King wrote:
>>
>>   I recall a project add on for Mozilla that was to access MySql...I
>>   am unfortunately not able to pull up my notes on this right now but
>>   I will get back to you later tonite. I also remember that the
>>   project might have been convrted to an ADO so the any supported db
>>   could be accessed...obviously all of this is mute if you are not
>>   upto learning xul...but (I know I'm rambling) the was yet another
>>   project to bind php as well as another for python scripting directly
>>   into M.
>
> I've been thinking of attacking the xul.  As I said I think having a
> button in the mailclient would be a much more attractive solution than
> suggesting they cut and paste into a web-app.
>
> I am already planning another migration of the FileMakerPro contacts
> database which was out of sync with the Mozilla addressbook.  My plan
> was to put the address book into ldap (which didn't work like I
> expected) and then evaluate whether SQL or ldap was a better
> replacement.  I already got the FilemakerPro stuff into a format 
> similar
> to the Mozilla AddressBook, but the client issues with ldap are
> worrisome.
>
> I am certainly interested in any XUL work in the contacts database 
> area.
> For lack of time, I have not yet gone on an extensive search through 
> the
> mozilla extensions.

What about writing a little application (a la iSync, but the plugin API 
for that is not public yet, IIRC) that synchronizes their local Mozilla 
mail contacts with an LDAP server?  You could even do it with a little 
[insert language of choice] script, if the clients are on OS X, because 
it ships with OpenLDAP installed (at least in 10.3).

-bob
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From dan  Thu Jun  3 20:42:49 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:42:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] collection for Dan Langille
In-Reply-To: <7EF6220C-B5BB-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40BF8D49.9197.3550FE97@localhost>

On 3 Jun 2004 at 20:09, G.Rosamond wrote:

> Sorry I didn't mention it, but the collection of $126 dollars was for 
> Dan Langille.  His laptop and some cards had been stolen.

Thanks folks.  I'm very humbled by that.  
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From george  Thu Jun  3 20:43:23 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:43:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Receipt for your Payment
Message-ID: <2F0B330F-B5C0-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

This is from last night's collection for Dan Langille, the organizer of 
BSDCan, the brain behind Freshports and FreeBSDDiary, whose had his 
laptop and some assorted hardware stolen.

Original idea for a collection is courtesy of Ike Levy, who provided a 
great motivating spiel at last night's NYCBUG meeting.

boom.  future donations can just directly send to payment at bsdcan.org.


Begin forwarded message:

> From: service at paypal.com
> Date: June 3, 2004 8:40:35 PM EDT
> To: payment at sddi.net
> Subject: Receipt for your Payment
>
> Dear Secure Design,
>
> This email confirms that you sent $126.00 USD to payment at bsdcan.org.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Payment Details
> ------------------------------
>
> Amount: $126.00 USD
> Transaction ID: 5SL532434X728412E
> Subject: Towards a Laptop replacement
> Note:
> We collected $126 at the June 2nd NYCBUG meeting towards replacing your
> stolen laptop and nics.
>
> More may be coming in.
>
> g
>
>
> View the details of this transaction online at:
> https://www.paypal.com/us/vst/id=5SL532434X728412E
>
> Thank you for using PayPal!
> The PayPal Team
>
>
> Your monthly account statement is available anytime; just log in to 
> your
> account at https://www.paypal.com/us/HISTORY. To correct any errors, 
> please
> contact us through our Help Center at https://www.paypal.com/us/HELP.
>
>
> Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address cannot be
> answered. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account and choose the
> "Help" link in the header of any page.
>
>
> PayPal Email ID PP118
>
>
>




From dan  Thu Jun  3 20:45:20 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:45:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Woah. . .
In-Reply-To: <553AF06A-B5B6-11D8-885E-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40BF8DE0.29558.35534DA3@localhost>

On 3 Jun 2004 at 19:32, G.Rosamond wrote:

> Also, we collected $113 dollars at the meeting, plus $3 more from a Ron 
> at Tekserve, then an additional $10 from Bob. . .for Dan Langille's 
> laptop replacement.  That's a total of $126 for Dan, US Dollars.  The 
> check for that amount will go out tomorrow.
> 
> Dan, I know it's not everything, but it's at least something.

The fact that a collection exists impresses me more than total could.

Thank you.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From marco  Thu Jun  3 20:47:10 2004
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:47:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ldap -> mac environment
In-Reply-To: <EFF997B5-B5BD-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <20040603212545.566FD80F9@mail.metm.org>
	<20040604001926.GB24745@metm.org>
	<EFF997B5-B5BD-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040604004709.GC24745@metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 08:27:18PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> What about writing a little application (a la iSync, but the plugin API 
> for that is not public yet, IIRC) that synchronizes their local Mozilla 
> mail contacts with an LDAP server?  You could even do it with a little 
> [insert language of choice] script, if the clients are on OS X, because 
> it ships with OpenLDAP installed (at least in 10.3).
> 
I'd thought of that too.  The clients are mostly OS9, only 2 out of 20
are OSX boxes.  I hope there is a Net::LDAP for MacPerl.

Only issue I don't know about is that I have to sync both ways, and I
wonder about changing the files out from under Mozilla when the client
is open.  

This is a pretty low budget non-profit client, but I like them and
thought figuring this out could be useful for other jobs.  But if
it becomes a huge amount of work, I won't have time to do it.  Adding a
useful piece to the Mozilla project seems more worthwhile to me.

-- 
Marco



From george  Thu Jun  3 20:47:54 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:47:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Woah. . .
In-Reply-To: <40BF8DE0.29558.35534DA3@localhost>
References: <40BF8DE0.29558.35534DA3@localhost>
Message-ID: <D053BF10-B5C0-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 3 Jun 2004 at 19:32, G.Rosamond wrote:
>
>> Also, we collected $113 dollars at the meeting, plus $3 more from a 
>> Ron
>> at Tekserve, then an additional $10 from Bob. . .for Dan Langille's
>> laptop replacement.  That's a total of $126 for Dan, US Dollars.  The
>> check for that amount will go out tomorrow.
>>
>> Dan, I know it's not everything, but it's at least something.
>
> The fact that a collection exists impresses me more than total could.
>
> Thank you.
>

It was easy to see why people contributed. . .

Your organizing of BSDCan is a vital step forward for the BSD Community.

g




From bsd  Thu Jun  3 20:50:28 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 20:50:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Woah. . .
References: <40BF8DE0.29558.35534DA3@localhost>
	<D053BF10-B5C0-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <004001c449cd$edffe3b0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>

> It was easy to see why people contributed. . .

Well, that, and he's a nice guy to boot :)

erm..  no pun intended...

Cheers,
Kevin




From george  Thu Jun  3 21:08:22 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:08:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Dan Langille Collection
Message-ID: <ACCAB139-B5C3-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

We're up to $176.

payment at bsdcan.org.

g




From bob  Thu Jun  3 21:47:16 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:47:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hacking your iBook: PyObjC tutorial slides available
Message-ID: <1BB98402-B5C9-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

The PyObjC stuff I presented last night is available in slide form here:

http://undefined.org/python/passwdviewer_cocoabindings_tutorial.pdf

The 'finished project' should be distributed with the PyObjC 1.1 
sources in Examples/CocoaBindings/TableModel, and a souped up version 
with searching (even supports regex) is in the same place and is called 
TableModelWithSource.

-bob
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From dlavigne6  Thu Jun  3 22:10:11 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] making of BSD hacks
In-Reply-To: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
References: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>


For those who haven't seen it yet, chromatic has a nice article on the 
making of BSD Hacks:

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/06/03/bsdhacks.html

Besides the interesting note that the book was created using BSD/vi and
Linux/vim, Pseudopod/subversion is an ideal combo for any shared documentation 
project.

Dru



From bob  Thu Jun  3 23:36:18 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:36:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PseudoPOD (was: making of BSD hacks)
In-Reply-To: <20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>
References: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
	<20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <56E711AE-B5D8-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:10 PM, Dru wrote:

>
> For those who haven't seen it yet, chromatic has a nice article on the 
> making of BSD Hacks:
>
> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/06/03/bsdhacks.html
>
> Besides the interesting note that the book was created using BSD/vi and
> Linux/vim, Pseudopod/subversion is an ideal combo for any shared 
> documentation project.

I'll have to take a look at PseudoPOD.  Is there a canonical URL for 
it?  I'd like to just look at some documentation and samples, rather 
than going through the trouble of CPANing it in and such.

Without having seen PseudoPOD, my current favorite structural plaintext 
format that I've used to write documentation, papers and slides is 
definitely ReStructuredText, part of the docutils project: 
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/

-bob
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From dlavigne6  Fri Jun  4 14:01:35 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PseudoPOD (was: making of BSD hacks)
In-Reply-To: <56E711AE-B5D8-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
	<20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>
	<56E711AE-B5D8-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040604135701.V716@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 3, 2004, at 10:10 PM, Dru wrote:
>
>> 
>> For those who haven't seen it yet, chromatic has a nice article on the 
>> making of BSD Hacks:
>> 
>> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/06/03/bsdhacks.html
>> 
>> Besides the interesting note that the book was created using BSD/vi and
>> Linux/vim, Pseudopod/subversion is an ideal combo for any shared 
>> documentation project.
>
> I'll have to take a look at PseudoPOD.  Is there a canonical URL for it?  I'd 
> like to just look at some documentation and samples, rather than going 
> through the trouble of CPANing it in and such.


You can find it at Allison Randal's page at CPAN:

www.cpan.org/authors/id/A/AR/ARANDAL


> Without having seen PseudoPOD, my current favorite structural plaintext 
> format that I've used to write documentation, papers and slides is definitely 
> ReStructuredText, part of the docutils project: 
> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/


Hmmm. That looks pretty straight-forward and not too hard to learn... I 
enjoyed PseudoPOD because it was so easy to learn.

Dru



From dan  Fri Jun  4 14:27:32 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:27:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Dan Langille Collection
In-Reply-To: <ACCAB139-B5C3-11D8-8139-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40C086D4.6586.391FD66A@localhost>

On 3 Jun 2004 at 21:08, G.Rosamond wrote:

> We're up to $176.
> 
> payment at bsdcan.org.

There was also another US$150 donated last night directed via Paypal 
to me.  I'm sure these came as a result of the posts to this list.

Details at http://dan.langille.org/archives/000011.html

Thank you.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From pete  Fri Jun  4 17:25:01 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:25:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
Message-ID: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>

Hey all,
    I am thinking of purchasing one of these boxes for my home network:

http://www.soekris.com/

The model I am thinking of purchasing is the:
*net4801-50
*
They make an ideal firewall, small and very low power consumption.  The 
price starts at $265, for the board and case.  Altho if you purchase 
more than one there is a discount.  For those that were at BSDCan, these 
were the boxes that Ryan McBride used for the pf demo.  If others are 
interested let me know, and maybe we can get a discount.

Cheers,
    Pete

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Fri Jun  4 17:41:56 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:41:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Dan Langille Collection
In-Reply-To: <40C086D4.6586.391FD66A@localhost>
References: <40C086D4.6586.391FD66A@localhost>
Message-ID: <0021E297-B670-11D8-8F67-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 4, 2004, at 2:27 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 3 Jun 2004 at 21:08, G.Rosamond wrote:
>
>> We're up to $176.
>>
>> payment at bsdcan.org.
>
> There was also another US$150 donated last night directed via Paypal
> to me.  I'm sure these came as a result of the posts to this list.
>
> Details at http://dan.langille.org/archives/000011.html
>

That's awesome Dan. . .Glad to see it's working. . .

For the record, it was Ike Levy who mentioned it to me first several 
weeks back when it first happened.

Credit to the Big I.

g




From george  Fri Jun  4 18:24:34 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:24:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <F5246D24-B675-11D8-9AAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:25 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Hey all,
>    I am thinking of purchasing one of these boxes for my home network:
>
> http://www.soekris.com/
>
> The model I am thinking of purchasing is the:
> *net4801-50
> *
> They make an ideal firewall, small and very low power consumption.  
> The price starts at $265, for the board and case.  Altho if you 
> purchase more than one there is a discount.  For those that were at 
> BSDCan, these were the boxes that Ryan McBride used for the pf demo.  
> If others are interested let me know, and maybe we can get a discount.
>
>

I have been meaning to buy one since Michael Lucas' OnLamp article on 
it a few months back.

Haven't made move yet, but plan to in the next month or two.  Can't do 
it yet. . .

g




From bob  Fri Jun  4 18:31:25 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:31:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <F5246D24-B675-11D8-9AAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<F5246D24-B675-11D8-9AAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <EA13B93E-B676-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 4, 2004, at 6:24 PM, G.Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:25 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>    I am thinking of purchasing one of these boxes for my home network:
>>
>> http://www.soekris.com/
>>
>> The model I am thinking of purchasing is the:
>> *net4801-50
>> *
>> They make an ideal firewall, small and very low power consumption.  
>> The price starts at $265, for the board and case.  Altho if you 
>> purchase more than one there is a discount.  For those that were at 
>> BSDCan, these were the boxes that Ryan McBride used for the pf demo.  
>> If others are interested let me know, and maybe we can get a 
>> discount.
>>
>>
>
> I have been meaning to buy one since Michael Lucas' OnLamp article on 
> it a few months back.
>
> Haven't made move yet, but plan to in the next month or two.  Can't do 
> it yet. . .

I am also interested in one of these 
in-the-nearish-future-but-not-today.

-bob
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From trish  Fri Jun  4 19:39:45 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:39:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] making of BSD hacks
In-Reply-To: <20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>
References: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
	<20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20040604193902.X21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dru wrote:

>
> For those who haven't seen it yet, chromatic has a nice article on the
> making of BSD Hacks:
>
> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/06/03/bsdhacks.html
>
> Besides the interesting note that the book was created using BSD/vi and
> Linux/vim, Pseudopod/subversion is an ideal combo for any shared documentation
> project.
>
> Dru

There are some of us who will never give up our TeX and LaTeX, dammit!

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From bob  Fri Jun  4 19:51:18 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:51:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] making of BSD hacks
In-Reply-To: <20040604193902.X21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>
References: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
	<20040603220640.K672@dru.domain.org>
	<20040604193902.X21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <12C8AA8D-B682-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 7:39 PM, Trish Lynch wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dru wrote:
>
>>
>> For those who haven't seen it yet, chromatic has a nice article on the
>> making of BSD Hacks:
>>
>> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/06/03/bsdhacks.html
>>
>> Besides the interesting note that the book was created using BSD/vi 
>> and
>> Linux/vim, Pseudopod/subversion is an ideal combo for any shared 
>> documentation
>> project.
>
> There are some of us who will never give up our TeX and LaTeX, dammit!

I used to prefer LaTeX, but these days I only use it as a postprocess 
for ReST documents.. so I can get nice PDF output from pdftex.  The 
only TeX I write by hand is the "stylesheet" stuff, which doesn't 
change very often.  If I was typing up equations, I'd definitely have 
to fall back to TeX, though I should be able to do that in unprocessed 
ReST blocks as-needed.

-bob
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From pete  Fri Jun  4 21:29:45 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 21:29:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <EA13B93E-B676-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<F5246D24-B675-11D8-9AAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<EA13B93E-B676-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <D3C6B4A6-B68F-11D8-92D2-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 4, 2004, at 6:31 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 4, 2004, at 6:24 PM, G.Rosamond wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:25 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>> Hey all,
>>>    I am thinking of purchasing one of these boxes for my home 
>>> network:
>>>
>>> http://www.soekris.com/
>>>
>>> The model I am thinking of purchasing is the:
>>> *net4801-50
>>> *
>>> They make an ideal firewall, small and very low power consumption.  
>>> The price starts at $265, for the board and case.  Altho if you 
>>> purchase more than one there is a discount.  For those that were at 
>>> BSDCan, these were the boxes that Ryan McBride used for the pf demo. 
>>>  If others are interested let me know, and maybe we can get a 
>>> discount.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I have been meaning to buy one since Michael Lucas' OnLamp article on 
>> it a few months back.
>>
>> Haven't made move yet, but plan to in the next month or two.  Can't 
>> do it yet. . .
>
> I am also interested in one of these 
> in-the-nearish-future-but-not-today.
>
> -bob
>

sounds good to me!  it wouldn't hurt if i waited ;)

-p




From george  Fri Jun  4 22:55:10 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 22:55:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <D3C6B4A6-B68F-11D8-92D2-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<F5246D24-B675-11D8-9AAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<EA13B93E-B676-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<D3C6B4A6-B68F-11D8-92D2-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <C26F4ED8-B69B-11D8-8250-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 4, 2004, at 9:29 PM, pete wright wrote:

>>> I have been meaning to buy one since Michael Lucas' OnLamp article 
>>> on it a few months back.
>>>
>>> Haven't made move yet, but plan to in the next month or two.  Can't 
>>> do it yet. . .
>>
>> I am also interested in one of these 
>> in-the-nearish-future-but-not-today.
>>
>> -bob
>>
>
> sounds good to me!  it wouldn't hurt if i waited ;)
>

I'm actually waiting for my mini-itx to return from RMA. . .

I had problems with the onboard ethernet, but hopefully it will be 
resolved. . .

once i get that up, i may mount under my car seat with fbsd, wireless 
nic, etc.  or run as a pf box at home.

I think like many other people today, i'm busy with work and my 'half' 
projects which hit brickwalls, then i create new ones. . .

g




From bob  Fri Jun  4 23:03:18 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:03:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <C26F4ED8-B69B-11D8-8250-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<F5246D24-B675-11D8-9AAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<EA13B93E-B676-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<D3C6B4A6-B68F-11D8-92D2-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<C26F4ED8-B69B-11D8-8250-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <E563460D-B69C-11D8-BBA0-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 4, 2004, at 10:55 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Jun 4, 2004, at 9:29 PM, pete wright wrote:
>
>>>> I have been meaning to buy one since Michael Lucas' OnLamp article 
>>>> on it a few months back.
>>>>
>>>> Haven't made move yet, but plan to in the next month or two.  Can't 
>>>> do it yet. . .
>>>
>>> I am also interested in one of these 
>>> in-the-nearish-future-but-not-today.
>>
>> sounds good to me!  it wouldn't hurt if i waited ;)
>>
>
> I'm actually waiting for my mini-itx to return from RMA. . .
>
> I had problems with the onboard ethernet, but hopefully it will be 
> resolved. . .
>
> once i get that up, i may mount under my car seat with fbsd, wireless 
> nic, etc.  or run as a pf box at home.
>
> I think like many other people today, i'm busy with work and my 'half' 
> projects which hit brickwalls, then i create new ones. . .

Personally, I've wanted one for 2 years or so.. ever since I saw the 
ones that the PicoBSD guys were using.  I'd like to replace the linux 
firewall I have at home with OpenBSD, but I'd rather not take my 
current box down to do that because downtime sucks, and it's a dual CPU 
box so it would be a shame to install OpenBSD on it.

Also, since it has 3 nics, I can use it to balance my SDSL and Cable 
connections here.. right now I only use the cable for the consoles or 
(in theory) when the SDSL is down.

-bob
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From elric  Fri Jun  4 01:35:00 2004
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:35:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] kernels 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 19:24:19 EDT."
	<23C6623C-B5B5-11D8-B453-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> 
Message-ID: <20040604053501.0681A174CA@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1086305059 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Bob Ippolito wrote:
>

>Sounds like a lot of work for a little real benefit.  Let's imagine for 
>a second that I'm running an email server that I would like to be 
>highly secure.  By some hook or crook, an attacker gets uid 0 on my 
>highly secure machine.  They decide it would be funny to wipe out all 
>of my mail spools and start sending spam.  Everything I wanted that 
>machine to do is now ruined, and I need to wipe the disk and restore 
>from tape or start over.  What's really left to protect if userspace is 
>hosed?  I'm not sure if I should care whether or not they can talk on 
>the PCI bus.

It depends whether you need real security or not.  Wiping out your
mail spools and sending spam is not exactly the most exciting attack
that people might think of.  First off, it is immediately obvious
that it is going on.  Attacks can be substantially more insidious.

If people can access your PCI bus, then they have the complete run
of the machine.  You might not want to actually trust that machine
again for a number of purposes, e.g. they might fiddle with the
firmware on an ethernet card that can PXE-boot to ensure that no
matter what you do they continue to have access to the machine.
Or just play with the BIOS.  In a very security sensitive context,
you have just completely lost the hardware, or at least have to do
a lot of work to ensure that all of the firmware that's lying around
has not been modified.

Also, consider audit trails.  Even in a moderately security sensitive
context, you might want to make certain guarantees about being able
to discover information about what they did, what time they came
in, etc.  You can do this by making the log files append-only (as
well as sending them to another machine, but of course that one
has to be more secure than this one.) And so on.

In short, setting up a bit of a TCB is hard work.  It isn't possible
without secure levels or a logical equivalent---at least something
that limits root's access to various things, especially the hardware.
There are situations where it makes sense.  Perhaps it does not
make sense for you, but for some people it does.  If anything, it
does not go far enough rather than being an appendix.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From george  Sat Jun  5 10:51:17 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:51:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hackathon fundraising
Message-ID: <CC9B4C16-B6FF-11D8-90D8-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Theo:

Pleasure meeting you at BSDCan.

I'm from NYCBUG and if you remember, we had discussed fundraising for 
the next OpenBSD Hackathon.

When are you having the next one?  I mentioned raising money for the 
Hackathon at our last meeting, and we'd like to do something rather 
than just passing a hat for the event.

No idea on how much we could raise, but at least knowing when the next 
one is would assist us in planning something.

thanks

george




From george  Sun Jun  6 13:24:53 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:24:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
Message-ID: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Henning Brauer <henning at openbsd.org>
> Date: June 6, 2004 9:48:36 AM EDT
> To: misc at openbsd.org
> Subject: no more apache updates
>
> The apache we ship with OpenBSD will stay at version 1.3.29. We will
> fix bugs, but there won't be any updates any more. 1.3.31 has been
> released under their "new" license which is less free than the previous
> one, and this is not acceptable.
>
> You know whom to complain to.
>




From george  Sun Jun  6 13:30:51 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:30:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple security record
Message-ID: <41B1010D-B7DF-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

http://news.com.com/For+Mac+security%2C+communication+is+key/2100 
-1002_3-5225115.html?tag=nefd.lede




From george  Sun Jun  6 13:48:04 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:48:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Hackathon fundraising 
Message-ID: <A920BF1F-B7E1-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Theo de Raadt <deraadt at cvs.openbsd.org>
> Date: June 5, 2004 6:39:00 PM EDT
> To: "G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net>
> Cc: pete wright <pete at nomadlogic.org>, Hans Zaunere <hans at nyphp.com>, 
> NYC Bug List <talk at lists.nycbug.org>, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org>, 
> Wes Sonnenreich <wes at sagesecure.com>
> Subject: Re: Hackathon fundraising
>
>> Pleasure meeting you at BSDCan.
>
> Yeah.
>
>> I'm from NYCBUG and if you remember, we had discussed fundraising for
>> the next OpenBSD Hackathon.
>>
>> When are you having the next one?
>
> It is happening in 2 weeks, in Calgary.  It's about 8 days long.
> About 50 people showing up, and we've got a room all set up.. it might
> be a bit tight, but that works out better.
>
>> I mentioned raising money for the
>> Hackathon at our last meeting, and we'd like to do something rather
>> than just passing a hat for the event.
>>
>> No idea on how much we could raise, but at least knowing when the next
>> one is would assist us in planning something.
>
> here's a piece of the information developers are given:
>
> june 19 - 26, calgary, airport code YYC
> - you fly yourself to calgary, openbsd pays for the rooms
> - hacking room booked from noon on 18, to early evening on the 27
>   - setup in the afternoon of the 18th
>   - teardown afternoon/evening of 26 or morning of 27 (as need be)
> - hotel rooms are currently booked for the nights of 19-25
>   - same hotel as last year
>   - hyatt regency downtown, center st & 8th ave SW
>   - 2 people per room, it is a very nice hotel.
>   - if you want a single room, you pay half
>   - if anyone is able to pay for their own room, that would be
>     appreciated since it saves openbsd money
>   - any additional nights, you pay for yourself.
>   - if arriving early/leaving late, roomate might be less flexible
>   - some hotel rooms have dsl; it is not free: your cost if you use it.
> - bbq 4-8pm at my house, sunday the 20th.  afterwards, you can go
>   back to hacking, sleep off jetlag, or enjoy the ship (which never
>   has a lineup on sundays)
> - hikes in lake louise area sometime during the week (a day off)
>   - bring light boots/runners, light rain coat, or stores are nearby
>   - two choices: difficult (mountain climb), or steep stroll uphill
>     to a few lakes
>
>
> as i've explained many times, we really strictly make these
> 'invitation only, closed otherwise' events, so that the ideas can brew
> and people actually sit down and finish them at the hackathon.
>
>
> We'd love more funding.  As you can imagine, the hotel bill is putting
> a serious crimp on our emergency project savings.  Finacially, we
> don't yet know how we'll do a hackathon next year...
>




From joshmccormack  Sun Jun  6 23:12:59 2004
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:12:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>

Pete Wright wrote:

> Hey all,
>    I am thinking of purchasing one of these boxes for my home network:
> 
> http://www.soekris.com/
> 
> The model I am thinking of purchasing is the:
> *net4801-50
<snip>
> 
> Cheers,
>    Pete
> 

For way too long now I've been planning, researching and talking with 
lots of people to set up a network security business, focusing at least 
partially on wireless and the small business market.

I'm going to be selling Soekris 4801 boxes with some optional hardware, 
running OpenBSD, OpenVPN and Snort (as a prevention system, writing to 
pf). Possibly some other stuff. My goal is to have everything be FOSS 
and publicly available hardware, and to have the value come from service 
- I'm not locking anyone into anything propreitary, those who can't 
afford to work with me or who have the technical expertise can build it 
and manage it themselves. Target is non-technical SOHO market mainly, 
but also companies with a respect for OpenBSD etc. but don't want to 
handle  maintenance themselves.

Since the business is really about service, and the technically adept 
are not a target, I can only benefit from being open with people like 
all of you. So if anyone is interested in working together on how to get 
all this software to work together, I'd love to share and learn. If 
you're interested I can also organize bulk purchases of the equipment, 
so we can try to keep our costs down.

Josh McCormack




From bob  Sun Jun  6 23:34:52 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:34:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <A340FBE4-B833-11D8-89FB-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 6, 2004, at 11:12 PM, Josh McCormack wrote:

> Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>    I am thinking of purchasing one of these boxes for my home network:
>> http://www.soekris.com/
>> The model I am thinking of purchasing is the:
>> *net4801-50
> <snip>
>> Cheers,
>>    Pete
>
> For way too long now I've been planning, researching and talking with 
> lots of people to set up a network security business, focusing at 
> least partially on wireless and the small business market.
>
> I'm going to be selling Soekris 4801 boxes with some optional 
> hardware, running OpenBSD, OpenVPN and Snort (as a prevention system, 
> writing to pf). Possibly some other stuff. My goal is to have 
> everything be FOSS and publicly available hardware, and to have the 
> value come from service - I'm not locking anyone into anything 
> propreitary, those who can't afford to work with me or who have the 
> technical expertise can build it and manage it themselves. Target is 
> non-technical SOHO market mainly, but also companies with a respect 
> for OpenBSD etc. but don't want to handle  maintenance themselves.
>
> Since the business is really about service, and the technically adept 
> are not a target, I can only benefit from being open with people like 
> all of you. So if anyone is interested in working together on how to 
> get all this software to work together, I'd love to share and learn. 
> If you're interested I can also organize bulk purchases of the 
> equipment, so we can try to keep our costs down.

Sounds like a good idea.  I've been interested in stuff like this 
(extending FOSS to build consumer grade solutions) for a good while.  
I'd definitely be interested in the software end of things.  It'll be a 
good idea to have a few developers involved that can fix bugs and 
submit patches to the software that these devices use, as well as 
develop new software for these devices.  Surely you'll also need to 
develop some sexy management tools (unless I'm completely missing an 
existing project that is just that), and there's a lot of work that can 
be done in the FOSS world as far as autodiscovery and autoconfiguration 
goes as well.

-bob
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From mspitze1  Mon Jun  7 00:05:45 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 00:05:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <20040607000545.23af3afc@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:12:59 -0400
Josh McCormack <joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com> wrote:

> 
> For way too long now I've been planning, researching and talking with 
> lots of people to set up a network security business, focusing at
> least partially on wireless and the small business market.

That does look like fun.

[details sniped]

One thing though you might want to look at netbsd, 2.0 is coming
soon.  It really is designed for this, embedded systems space, much
more so then free or open.  And there is a lot of NYC talent for it.

marc




From pete  Mon Jun  7 09:33:39 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:33:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>

G.Rosamond wrote:

>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Henning Brauer <henning at openbsd.org>
>> Date: June 6, 2004 9:48:36 AM EDT
>> To: misc at openbsd.org
>> Subject: no more apache updates
>>
>> The apache we ship with OpenBSD will stay at version 1.3.29. We will
>> fix bugs, but there won't be any updates any more. 1.3.31 has been
>> released under their "new" license which is less free than the previous
>> one, and this is not acceptable.
>>
>> You know whom to complain to.
>>
>

woah.  no 2.x?  woah.  and i thought the debain folks were strict.

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Mon Jun  7 12:43:55 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:43:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>

Pete Wright wrote:

> G.Rosamond wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: Henning Brauer <henning at openbsd.org>
>>> Date: June 6, 2004 9:48:36 AM EDT
>>> To: misc at openbsd.org
>>> Subject: no more apache updates
>>>
>>> The apache we ship with OpenBSD will stay at version 1.3.29. We will
>>> fix bugs, but there won't be any updates any more. 1.3.31 has been
>>> released under their "new" license which is less free than the previous
>>> one, and this is not acceptable.
>>>
>>> You know whom to complain to.
>>>
>>
>
> woah.  no 2.x?  woah.  and i thought the debain folks were strict.
>
> -p
>
>
>
hey all,
    so i just read up on the thread regarding this decision.  i am not 
on the openBSD list currently.  maybe someone on the nycbug list can 
explain in better detail/clarity what the OBSD team finds wrong with the 
ASF 2.0 license?   From my perspective, as a sysadmin, there are some 
pretty interesting features in httpd 2.x that i was looking forward to.  
What I gathered from the thread was aside from the license issues, the 
httpd team was not very receptive in accepting patches from the obsd 
team.  If that's true that's kinda lame :(

here is a link to a web-based thread of the discusion:
http://www.sigmasoft.com/~openbsd/archive/openbsd-misc/200406/msg00398.html



-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Mon Jun  7 11:54:02 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:54:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org> <40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <E5E8A67A-B89A-11D8-A817-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 7, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> <snip>

> hey all,
>    so i just read up on the thread regarding this decision.  i am not  
> on the openBSD list currently.  maybe someone on the nycbug list can  
> explain in better detail/clarity what the OBSD team finds wrong with  
> the ASF 2.0 license?   From my perspective, as a sysadmin, there are  
> some pretty interesting features in httpd 2.x that i was looking  
> forward to.  What I gathered from the thread was aside from the  
> license issues, the httpd team was not very receptive in accepting  
> patches from the obsd team.  If that's true that's kinda lame :(
>
> here is a link to a web-based thread of the discusion:
> http://www.sigmasoft.com/~openbsd/archive/openbsd-misc/200406/ 
> msg00398.html
>

This started a few months back. . .I don't remember licensing detail  
changes, but there's threads and a writeup on the Free Software  
Foundation site. . .

 From what I remember, the details of the change was irrelevant.  . .it  
was the idea of change in the first place.

I remember Theo writing that once lawyers tell developers 'how to make  
their software more free', there's a problem.

Some people have reacted that OBSD and the FSF went overboard, that  
this wasn't a big deal.

Regardless, it does set a tone for everyone, which I think is right.   
It's too easy for projects to evolve their licensing due to lawyer  
input, and ultimately away from the FOSS community.

g




From pete  Mon Jun  7 13:00:33 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:00:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <E5E8A67A-B89A-11D8-A817-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org> <40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>
	<E5E8A67A-B89A-11D8-A817-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40C49F31.1060706@nomadlogic.org>

G. Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Jun 7, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>
>
>> hey all,
>>    so i just read up on the thread regarding this decision.  i am 
>> not  on the openBSD list currently.  maybe someone on the nycbug list 
>> can  explain in better detail/clarity what the OBSD team finds wrong 
>> with  the ASF 2.0 license?   From my perspective, as a sysadmin, 
>> there are  some pretty interesting features in httpd 2.x that i was 
>> looking  forward to.  What I gathered from the thread was aside from 
>> the  license issues, the httpd team was not very receptive in 
>> accepting  patches from the obsd team.  If that's true that's kinda 
>> lame :(
>>
>> here is a link to a web-based thread of the discusion:
>> http://www.sigmasoft.com/~openbsd/archive/openbsd-misc/200406/ 
>> msg00398.html
>>
>
> This started a few months back. . .I don't remember licensing detail  
> changes, but there's threads and a writeup on the Free Software  
> Foundation site. . .
>
cool thanks I'll check out the FSF site for that.

> From what I remember, the details of the change was irrelevant.  . 
> .it  was the idea of change in the first place.
>
> I remember Theo writing that once lawyers tell developers 'how to 
> make  their software more free', there's a problem.
>
> Some people have reacted that OBSD and the FSF went overboard, that  
> this wasn't a big deal.
>
> Regardless, it does set a tone for everyone, which I think is right.   
> It's too easy for projects to evolve their licensing due to lawyer  
> input, and ultimately away from the FOSS community.
>
well despite these differences at least it is all happening in the open 
so that the end user community has an idea of what's going on.  I'll 
take an open disgreement over sudden changes in roadmaps that the user 
has no idea is coming any day.


cheers,
    pete

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From mikel.king  Mon Jun  7 15:34:00 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:34:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>
References: <40C0E8AD.20708@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C3DD3B.8050007@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <40C4C328.8050401@ocsny.com>

Josh McCormack wrote:

>
>
> Since the business is really about service, and the technically adept 
> are not a target, I can only benefit from being open with people like 
> all of you. So if anyone is interested in working together on how to 
> get all this software to work together, I'd love to share and learn. 
> If you're interested I can also organize bulk purchases of the 
> equipment, so we can try to keep our costs down.
>
> Josh McCormack

Hey Josh,

    Let me know how much the cost turns out to be if you get enough to 
bulk it up. I have an interest in one of these as well.

cheers,
m!



From mikel.king  Mon Jun  7 16:31:19 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:31:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40C49F31.1060706@nomadlogic.org>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>	<E5E8A67A-B89A-11D8-A817-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C49F31.1060706@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40C4D097.2030805@ocsny.com>

Pete Wright wrote:

> G. Rosamond wrote:
>
> [SNIP][SNIP][SNIP]

Sounds like my wife when she's clipping coupons...;-)

Regardless...of the change it won't stop you from trying it out on your 
own.  Just means that neither Theo nor the rest of the oBSD crew will 
openly search for security issues et cettera in that peticular port.

I have been running apache 2.x for quite a while and well asside from 
the not so built in webdav support, which b the by it why I gave it a 
whirl in the first place. Ok that and the threading... it's been great...


Cheers,
m!


PS: with regards to webdav on 2.x it's in there you just have to 
properly enable, as per 1.3.x



From pete  Mon Jun  7 17:47:51 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:47:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40C4D097.2030805@ocsny.com>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>	<E5E8A67A-B89A-11D8-A817-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C49F31.1060706@nomadlogic.org> <40C4D097.2030805@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <40C4E287.2090809@nomadlogic.org>

mikel king wrote:

> Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> G. Rosamond wrote:
>>
>> [SNIP][SNIP][SNIP]
>
>
> Sounds like my wife when she's clipping coupons...;-)
>
> Regardless...of the change it won't stop you from trying it out on 
> your own.  Just means that neither Theo nor the rest of the oBSD crew 
> will openly search for security issues et cettera in that peticular port.
>
yea, unfortunatly i think that's a big plus for most people who deploy 
apache on oBSD.  i did some searching about a bunch of lists regarding 
the apache 2.x lic. and it seems that the oBSD camp is not the first to 
balk at adopting it in regard to the new lic. terms.  There was an 
interesting thread on debian-legal regarding this.  <sarcasm>oh well, i 
guess i'll just go back to IIS, atleast all the political infighting is 
hidden from the user base ;^) i mean a webserver is a webserver 
right?</sarcasm>

-p

> I have been running apache 2.x for quite a while and well asside from 
> the not so built in webdav support, which b the by it why I gave it a 
> whirl in the first place. Ok that and the threading... it's been great...
>
>
> Cheers,
> m!
>
>
> PS: with regards to webdav on 2.x it's in there you just have to 
> properly enable, as per 1.3.x



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Mon Jun  7 17:18:01 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:18:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40C4E287.2090809@nomadlogic.org>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>	<E5E8A67A-B89A-11D8-A817-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C49F31.1060706@nomadlogic.org> <40C4D097.2030805@ocsny.com>
	<40C4E287.2090809@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <288CBBCE-B8C8-11D8-89FB-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 7, 2004, at 5:47 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> mikel king wrote:
>
>> Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>> G. Rosamond wrote:
>>>
>>> [SNIP][SNIP][SNIP]
>>
>>
>> Sounds like my wife when she's clipping coupons...;-)
>>
>> Regardless...of the change it won't stop you from trying it out on 
>> your own.  Just means that neither Theo nor the rest of the oBSD crew 
>> will openly search for security issues et cettera in that peticular 
>> port.
>>
> yea, unfortunatly i think that's a big plus for most people who deploy 
> apache on oBSD.  i did some searching about a bunch of lists regarding 
> the apache 2.x lic. and it seems that the oBSD camp is not the first 
> to balk at adopting it in regard to the new lic. terms.  There was an 
> interesting thread on debian-legal regarding this.  <sarcasm>oh well, 
> i guess i'll just go back to IIS, atleast all the political infighting 
> is hidden from the user base ;^) i mean a webserver is a webserver 
> right?</sarcasm>

Software licenses give me a headache.  The *BSD guys have it right -- 
MIT and BSD style licenses are really the only way to go.  They're the 
only licenses straightforward enough to where a software developer can 
actually understand what they're agreeing to, and free enough such that 
you don't have to think twice before hacking the code or redistributing 
a binary.  The [L]GPL makes me want to puke, and the fringe licenses 
that are written by lawyers (APSL, MPL, etc.) are just obnoxious.

I'm not afraid to use software with a crappy license if the software 
does what I need it to do.  Except for BitKeeper's free license, which 
is downright evil.. but I won't contribute to software that isn't "free 
as in I can use it however the fuck I want to" unless it's an absolute 
necessity.
</rant>

-bob
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From sunny-ml  Mon Jun  7 22:05:15 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:05:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org> <40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200406072205.16460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Monday 07 June 2004 12:43 pm, Pete Wright wrote:

> hey all,
>     so i just read up on the thread regarding this decision.  i am not
> on the openBSD list currently.  maybe someone on the nycbug list can
> explain in better detail/clarity what the OBSD team finds wrong with the
> ASF 2.0 license?   From my perspective, as a sysadmin, there are some
> pretty interesting features in httpd 2.x that i was looking forward to.

Who actually uses the distros httpd package for real use ?

Sunny Dubey



From klimenta  Tue Jun  8 08:28:28 2004
From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 08:28:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Nearly 2.5 Million Active Sites running FreeBSD 	
Message-ID: <40C5B0EC.2080108@futurebit.com>



http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/06/07/nearly_25_million_active_sites_running_freebsd.html





From pete  Tue Jun  8 10:18:18 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:18:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <200406072205.16460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <6C883B2B-B7DE-11D8-8100-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<40C46EB3.3040106@nomadlogic.org>
	<40C49B4B.8030801@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406072205.16460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <40C5CAAA.9000500@nomadlogic.org>

Sunny Dubey wrote:

>On Monday 07 June 2004 12:43 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>  
>
>>hey all,
>>    so i just read up on the thread regarding this decision.  i am not
>>on the openBSD list currently.  maybe someone on the nycbug list can
>>explain in better detail/clarity what the OBSD team finds wrong with the
>>ASF 2.0 license?   From my perspective, as a sysadmin, there are some
>>pretty interesting features in httpd 2.x that i was looking forward to.
>>    
>>
>
>Who actually uses the distros httpd package for real use ?
>  
>

i'd trust the OpenBSD teams httpd over my own patching etc., from a 
security stand point.  granted tho, if you are running a heavily loaded 
site you probably will be running an SMP os.

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Tue Jun  8 18:41:20 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 18:41:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] GSEC
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAntUbvcsQC0i4aN9StZf7nwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

SANS finally posted my paper for the GSEC cert.

Find my name in the list and check it out. . .heavy OBSD tone. . .

http://www.giac.org/GSEC.php




From marco  Tue Jun  8 23:12:40 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:12:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
Message-ID: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>

I have no idea if anyone is up to this, but I am going to install
FreeBSD on a VALinux server which I will use to replace the rag-tag
group of linux boxen which make up my home servers.

  It's a pretty nice machine from the 2200 series
  -- Mylex DAC960 raid controller, with hotswappable ultra scsi disks
  -- SMP capable motherboard with one 800Mhz cpu.
  -- Intel everything else
  -- I even have a manual

I was thinking that this might be a good opportunity to have a bit
of an install fest, secure fest.  Where those of us who are interested
could discuss the issues which come up in a hands on way.  Some ideas I
had which may show how much of a newbie I am with the BSDs are:
  
  Test Vinium vs. the hardware raid controller 
  Kernel tuning.
  Going over pf.

Perhaps some of you have a better idea of some interesting things which
could be done.  Newest for me is the raid stuff (where I am a complete
newbie) and things which have to do directly with the kernel.

I've already made it through an install, ports, partitioning and init
scripts aren't much of a mystery but when people get together the tips
and tricks start to flow, and I am sure there are others who would be
curious to attend such an event and ask questions or what not.

I have a pretty big loft in Brooklyn which could accommodate a bunch of
installs if other people wanted to particpate.  I can offer some beers
and food depending on how many people show up.

I want to do this soon, like this week, so if any of you are up for a
night dare I suggest Friday night? or either Sat. or Sun. anytime that
would be cool.

Anyway it's just an idea, I can host a more carefully planned
install/secure fest whether or not we do this thing with the VA box,

-- 
Marco




From george  Tue Jun  8 23:36:41 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:36:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAG7rLwr1++kyE2Jj1tFYAqAEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of marco at metm.org
>Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:13 PM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
>
>I have no idea if anyone is up to this, but I am going to install
>FreeBSD on a VALinux server which I will use to replace the rag-tag
>group of linux boxen which make up my home servers.
>
>  It's a pretty nice machine from the 2200 series
>  -- Mylex DAC960 raid controller, with hotswappable ultra scsi disks
>  -- SMP capable motherboard with one 800Mhz cpu.
>  -- Intel everything else
>  -- I even have a manual
>
>I was thinking that this might be a good opportunity to have a bit
>of an install fest, secure fest.  Where those of us who are interested
>could discuss the issues which come up in a hands on way.  Some ideas I
>had which may show how much of a newbie I am with the BSDs are:
>  
>  Test Vinium vs. the hardware raid controller 
>  Kernel tuning.
>  Going over pf.
>
>Perhaps some of you have a better idea of some interesting things which
>could be done.  Newest for me is the raid stuff (where I am a complete
>newbie) and things which have to do directly with the kernel.
>
>I've already made it through an install, ports, partitioning and init
>scripts aren't much of a mystery but when people get together the tips
>and tricks start to flow, and I am sure there are others who would be
>curious to attend such an event and ask questions or what not.
>
>I have a pretty big loft in Brooklyn which could accommodate a bunch of
>installs if other people wanted to particpate.  I can offer some beers
>and food depending on how many people show up.
>
>I want to do this soon, like this week, so if any of you are up for a
>night dare I suggest Friday night? or either Sat. or Sun. anytime that
>would be cool.
>
>Anyway it's just an idea, I can host a more carefully planned
>install/secure fest whether or not we do this thing with the VA box,
>
>-- 
>Marco


Marco, i think it's a great idea. . .even if it's last minute. . .

i'll give a tentative yes on it. . .

where in the republic of bk?

g




From marco  Tue Jun  8 23:50:04 2004
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 23:50:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAG7rLwr1++kyE2Jj1tFYAqAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAG7rLwr1++kyE2Jj1tFYAqAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040609035003.GD2249@metm.org>

On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 11:36:41PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> 
> Marco, i think it's a great idea. . .even if it's last minute. . .
> 
> i'll give a tentative yes on it. . .
> 
> where in the republic of bk?
> 
Cool,

I live 1 block from the Franklin Ave stop on the 'C' train ('A' local)
Its ~6 stops from Broadway-Nassau.  

By car it is super easy.  Take either the Brooklyn Bridge or Manhattan
to Flatbush. Left on Fulton St.  12-15 lights. Left on Claver Pl.
I can send more detailed directions, if/when we close a date.  

There's a freight elevator in the building if anyone else wants to bring
a box to work on.

Do we have any other takers?

-- 
Marco



From bsd  Tue Jun  8 23:57:13 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:57:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
References: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAG7rLwr1++kyE2Jj1tFYAqAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040609035003.GD2249@metm.org>
Message-ID: <000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>

> There's a freight elevator in the building if anyone else wants to bring
> a box to work on.
>
> Do we have any other takers?

Sure, I'm game.  I consider myself pretty much a newbie on everything except
breaking things ;-)

Are there any others from the Jersey side who are going?  I can manage
enough not to get lost going into Manhattan, but everything else is still
pretty much of a mystery to me when it comes to finding my way in NYC...
I'd be more than willing to pay for gas if somebody else could drive, and
chip in for food (sorry folks, I don't drink or I'd chip in for that as
well.)

As far as BYOB, do you have spare monitors or do we need to bring our own?

-Kevin





From marco  Wed Jun  9 00:09:16 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 00:09:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>
References: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAG7rLwr1++kyE2Jj1tFYAqAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040609035003.GD2249@metm.org>
	<000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <20040609040916.GE2249@metm.org>

On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 11:57:13PM -0400, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> As far as BYOB, do you have spare monitors or do we need to bring our own?

That's a good point.  It seems that the two dust collectors I have
aren't being too responsive.  I may only have one spare.

I'll double check tommorrow.

As for the beer, I didn't mean to be prejudiced, it seemed from the
meetings that beer would be a popular offering :)

-- 
Marco



From bsd  Wed Jun  9 00:18:06 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:18:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
References: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAG7rLwr1++kyE2Jj1tFYAqAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040609035003.GD2249@metm.org>
	<000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>
	<20040609040916.GE2249@metm.org>
Message-ID: <002701c44dd8$c417b820$0800a8c0@hephaestus>

> That's a good point.  It seems that the two dust collectors I have
> aren't being too responsive.  I may only have one spare.
>
> I'll double check tommorrow.
>
> As for the beer, I didn't mean to be prejudiced, it seemed from the
> meetings that beer would be a popular offering :)

I can lug a spare 15" CRT as long as I don't have to walk from Jersey to
Bkln with it ;-)  Either that or I can bring my laptop with a handy-dandy
new drive reserved for FreeBSD (sorry Dan!)

As for the beer, I'm by no means a prude - I gave it up years ago, but that
doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching others getting shitfaced (just as long
as they don't spill it on me :)





From george  Wed Jun  9 10:14:24 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:14:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New DN EZine
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAANI38wASz0EuvGYwsPzh/MgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

Hot off the press:

http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200406/




From dlavigne6  Wed Jun  9 11:10:53 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:10:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cool script
In-Reply-To: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
References: <B24F5C4EDA48D511B6CB00508BDFC194081B9838@nyexchclstr.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20040609110824.G543@dru.domain.org>


Here's a link to a writeup regarding a cool script a user sent me:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5025

Testers and comments most welcome. He's looking into seeing it committed 
to base. I think a lot of users would benefit from not having to install 
the full ports collection on their systems.

Dru



From chrisc  Wed Jun  9 11:10:39 2004
From: chrisc (Chris Coleman)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 10:10:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New DN EZine
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAANI38wASz0EuvGYwsPzh/MgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAANI38wASz0EuvGYwsPzh/MgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <2AF1B544-BA27-11D8-A7ED-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>

Its a good issue too. Please help us advertise it.

-Chris

On Jun 9, 2004, at 9:14 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:

> Hot off the press:
>
> http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200406/
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
Chris Coleman			Editor in Chief
Daemon News			http://www.daemonnews.org
BSD Mall				http://www.bsdmall.com
Print Magazine			http://magazine.daemonnews.org




From dlavigne6  Wed Jun  9 11:18:14 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:18:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Whitepaper:  The need for Security Testing (fwd)
Message-ID: <20040609111520.M543@dru.domain.org>


Nice little intro on the OSSTMM:

http://www.infosecwriters.com/texts.php?op=display&id=178

OSSTMM is under the umbrella of www.isecom.org

Dru



From george  Wed Jun  9 12:02:34 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:02:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+QRXGBQk7kebgxPbNA4fyAEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Reiter
>Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:57 PM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
>
>> There's a freight elevator in the building if anyone else 
>wants to bring
>> a box to work on.
>>
>> Do we have any other takers?
>
>Sure, I'm game.  I consider myself pretty much a newbie on 
>everything except
>breaking things ;-)
>
>Are there any others from the Jersey side who are going?  I can manage
>enough not to get lost going into Manhattan, but everything 
>else is still
>pretty much of a mystery to me when it comes to finding my way 
>in NYC...
>I'd be more than willing to pay for gas if somebody else could 
>drive, and
>chip in for food (sorry folks, I don't drink or I'd chip in for that as
>well.)
>
>As far as BYOB, do you have spare monitors or do we need to 
>bring our own?
>
>-Kevin

Haven't yet confirmed with my better half about this, but I think I'm
set for Friday.

Time?

Let's make it an official NYCBUG event. . .

Anybody else have any funky hardware for this?

g




From george  Wed Jun  9 12:13:21 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:13:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New DN EZine
In-Reply-To: <2AF1B544-BA27-11D8-A7ED-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAXvfnMnbEYEuaTxDLjp5YrgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Coleman [mailto:chrisc at daemonnews.org] 
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:11 AM
>To: george at sddi.net
>Cc: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] New DN EZine
>
>Its a good issue too. Please help us advertise it.
>
>-Chris
>
>On Jun 9, 2004, at 9:14 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
>> Hot off the press:
>>
>> http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200406/
>>


Someone else can post to Slashdot this time. . .

g




From marco  Wed Jun  9 12:21:06 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:21:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+QRXGBQk7kebgxPbNA4fyAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+QRXGBQk7kebgxPbNA4fyAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040609162105.GA1853@metm.org>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 12:02:34PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> Haven't yet confirmed with my better half about this, but I think I'm
> set for Friday.

I was going to ask what days are better for everyone.

> Time?

6:30? 7:00 I'm a bit of a night person so I don't mind.

> 
> Let's make it an official NYCBUG event. . .
> 
> Anybody else have any funky hardware for this?
> 
I hope there is more interest.  
We can do it another weekend, but I'll
certainly have the new server running by then.

-- 
Marco




From pete  Wed Jun  9 13:19:19 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:19:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <20040609162105.GA1853@metm.org>
References: <000d01c44dd5$d935c8d0$0800a8c0@hephaestus>	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+QRXGBQk7kebgxPbNA4fyAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040609162105.GA1853@metm.org>
Message-ID: <40C74697.7050300@nomadlogic.org>

marco at metm.org wrote:

>On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 12:02:34PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
>  
>
>>Haven't yet confirmed with my better half about this, but I think I'm
>>set for Friday.
>>    
>>
>
>I was going to ask what days are better for everyone.
>
>  
>
>>Time?
>>    
>>
>
>6:30? 7:00 I'm a bit of a night person so I don't mind.
>
>  
>
>>Let's make it an official NYCBUG event. . .
>>
>>Anybody else have any funky hardware for this?
>>
>>    
>>
>I hope there is more interest.  
>We can do it another weekend, but I'll
>certainly have the new server running by then.
>
>  
>
You can count me in as i tenative yes, it really depends on timing.  has 
there been a date/time set for this yet?  i have at least one monitor i 
can bring, and i also have a laptop with no cd or floppy support.  might 
be fun to play with net-booting...


-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Wed Jun  9 14:05:50 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:05:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
Message-ID: <A3D7863A-BA3F-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

I remember a few of you mentioning that you use VoIP PSTN gateway 
services, but I don't recall which providers were mentioned.  It would 
be cool to compile a list of providers and what the costs are.  Here 
are a few off the top of my head:

Packet8 - http://www.packet8.net/ - $19.99/mo unlimited US
Vonage - http://www.vonage.com/ - $29.99/mo unlimited US
Coloco - http://www.coloco.com/telecom/index.php - (No listed prices, 
but the divmod guys are reselling this.  I could ask them.)
iConnectHere - http://iconnecthere.com/ - ~$0.01-$0.035 per minute 
depending on how much you pay per month

Any others worth mentioning?

-bob
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From george  Wed Jun  9 14:17:49 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:17:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
In-Reply-To: <A3D7863A-BA3F-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYdBmo+FM8Uq6iQCYIC41dgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Ippolito
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:06 PM
>To: NYC Bug List
>Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
>
>I remember a few of you mentioning that you use VoIP PSTN gateway 
>services, but I don't recall which providers were mentioned.  It would 
>be cool to compile a list of providers and what the costs are.  Here 
>are a few off the top of my head:
>
>Packet8 - http://www.packet8.net/ - $19.99/mo unlimited US
>Vonage - http://www.vonage.com/ - $29.99/mo unlimited US
>Coloco - http://www.coloco.com/telecom/index.php - (No listed prices, 
>but the divmod guys are reselling this.  I could ask them.)
>iConnectHere - http://iconnecthere.com/ - ~$0.01-$0.035 per minute 
>depending on how much you pay per month
>
>Any others worth mentioning?
>

BSDMall will be able to provide number provisioning in the very near
term.

Plus already sells IP phones. . .

http://bsdmall.com/hardware.html

Connectivity is priced very nice. . .

$25 unlimited local and int'l residential

$55 for a business

g




From bob  Wed Jun  9 14:23:38 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:23:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYdBmo+FM8Uq6iQCYIC41dgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYdBmo+FM8Uq6iQCYIC41dgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <2079C620-BA42-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 9, 2004, at 2:17 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
>> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Ippolito
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:06 PM
>> To: NYC Bug List
>> Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
>>
>> I remember a few of you mentioning that you use VoIP PSTN gateway
>> services, but I don't recall which providers were mentioned.  It would
>> be cool to compile a list of providers and what the costs are.  Here
>> are a few off the top of my head:
>>
>> Packet8 - http://www.packet8.net/ - $19.99/mo unlimited US
>> Vonage - http://www.vonage.com/ - $29.99/mo unlimited US
>> Coloco - http://www.coloco.com/telecom/index.php - (No listed prices,
>> but the divmod guys are reselling this.  I could ask them.)
>> iConnectHere - http://iconnecthere.com/ - ~$0.01-$0.035 per minute
>> depending on how much you pay per month
>>
>> Any others worth mentioning?
>>
>
> BSDMall will be able to provide number provisioning in the very near
> term.
>
> Plus already sells IP phones. . .
>
> http://bsdmall.com/hardware.html
>
> Connectivity is priced very nice. . .
>
> $25 unlimited local and int'l residential
>
> $55 for a business

What's the difference between business and residential services?
Is call forwarding provided?
Which area codes are provided for?
Will BSDMall also be offering pay-as-you-go plans?
Why is Packet8 cheaper? ;)

-bob
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From marco  Wed Jun  9 14:55:37 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:55:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
In-Reply-To: <2079C620-BA42-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYdBmo+FM8Uq6iQCYIC41dgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<2079C620-BA42-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040609185536.GA2777@metm.org>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 02:23:38PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> >>I remember a few of you mentioning that you use VoIP PSTN gateway
> >>services, but I don't recall which providers were mentioned.  It would
> >>be cool to compile a list of providers and what the costs are.  Here
> >>are a few off the top of my head:
> >>
> >>Packet8 - http://www.packet8.net/ - $19.99/mo unlimited US
> >>Vonage - http://www.vonage.com/ - $29.99/mo unlimited US
> >>Coloco - http://www.coloco.com/telecom/index.php - (No listed prices,
> >>but the divmod guys are reselling this.  I could ask them.)
> >>iConnectHere - http://iconnecthere.com/ - ~$0.01-$0.035 per minute
> >>depending on how much you pay per month
> >>
> >>Any others worth mentioning?
> >>
voicepulse gives you vo-ip or IAX to PSTN .  I found IAX to be more
reliable than vo-ip using different softphones and asterisk.  And am
more interested in the pbx stuff I can do with asterisk.

But you mentioned you don't care for asterisk.

-- 
Marco



From bob  Wed Jun  9 15:07:51 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:07:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VoIP service providers
In-Reply-To: <20040609185536.GA2777@metm.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYdBmo+FM8Uq6iQCYIC41dgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<2079C620-BA42-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040609185536.GA2777@metm.org>
Message-ID: <4DF5737E-BA48-11D8-A8F3-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 9, 2004, at 2:55 PM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 02:23:38PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>>> I remember a few of you mentioning that you use VoIP PSTN gateway
>>>> services, but I don't recall which providers were mentioned.  It 
>>>> would
>>>> be cool to compile a list of providers and what the costs are.  Here
>>>> are a few off the top of my head:
>>>>
>>>> Packet8 - http://www.packet8.net/ - $19.99/mo unlimited US
>>>> Vonage - http://www.vonage.com/ - $29.99/mo unlimited US
>>>> Coloco - http://www.coloco.com/telecom/index.php - (No listed 
>>>> prices,
>>>> but the divmod guys are reselling this.  I could ask them.)
>>>> iConnectHere - http://iconnecthere.com/ - ~$0.01-$0.035 per minute
>>>> depending on how much you pay per month
>>>>
>>>> Any others worth mentioning?
>>>>
> voicepulse gives you vo-ip or IAX to PSTN .  I found IAX to be more
> reliable than vo-ip using different softphones and asterisk.  And am
> more interested in the pbx stuff I can do with asterisk.
>
> But you mentioned you don't care for asterisk.

I haven't tried using it, but I know some people who are having SERIOUS 
stability problems with it on linux and one of those T1 cards... In any 
case, I'm more interested in personal use at the moment, rather than 
business use.

-bob
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From george  Wed Jun  9 15:19:35 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:19:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <40C74697.7050300@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+myyYvJkyUaFLKl6Hk0RXgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Pete Wright
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:19 PM
>To: marco at metm.org
>Cc: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
>
>marco at metm.org wrote:
>
>>On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 12:02:34PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Haven't yet confirmed with my better half about this, but I think I'm
>>>set for Friday.
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>I was going to ask what days are better for everyone.
>>
>>  
>>
>>>Time?
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>6:30? 7:00 I'm a bit of a night person so I don't mind.
>>
>>  
>>
>>>Let's make it an official NYCBUG event. . .
>>>
>>>Anybody else have any funky hardware for this?
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>I hope there is more interest.  
>>We can do it another weekend, but I'll
>>certainly have the new server running by then.
>>
>>  
>>
>You can count me in as i tenative yes, it really depends on 
>timing.  has 
>there been a date/time set for this yet?  i have at least one 
>monitor i 
>can bring, and i also have a laptop with no cd or floppy 
>support.  might 
>be fun to play with net-booting...


I'll have to bail on this one. . .my schedule is managed elsewhere. . 

oops.

another night would be great for me. . .

g




From george  Wed Jun  9 15:22:12 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:22:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FW: Perl 6 and Parrot talk TODAY Wednesday June 9th
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAk0C1Vwh9I0uBxrH4SmMEhQEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Georgalis [mailto:george at galis.org] 
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:20 PM
>To: G. Rosamond
>Subject: Perl 6 and Parrot talk TODAY Wednesday June 9th
>
>
>If you haven't already, please RSVP by 4pm today if you plan to attend.
>
>Original announcement:
>
>We are pleased to announce that NYSA will be presenting a talk on Perl
>6 and Parrot on June 9th. We intend to have this be the start of a new
>discussion series at NYSA and look forward to seeing you there. PLEASE
>remember to RSVP, details below.
>
>MEETING DETAILS from http://www.nysa.org/meetings.html
>
>DATE 
>
>Wednesday, June 9th, 2004 
>6:30 pm to 6:45 pm - Announcements 
>6:45 pm to 7:45 pm - Main Presentation 
>7:45 pm to 9:00 pm - Open Floor 
>
>SPEAKER 
>
>Josh Rabinowitz is a 13-year veteran of the software industry who
>cut his teeth at NASA Ames Research Center and at CNET.com and other
>web companies. He currently is an independent internet consultant
>and software developer in New York City, and the publisher of
>SkateboardDirectory.com, which aims to be your guide to 
>skateboard sites
>on the Internet.
>
>TOPIC 
>
>Perl 6 and Parrot 
>
>Perl 6 is more than an incremental upgrade to the Perl 5. It's "the
>community's rewrite of perl", and seeks to add deep features and
>language changes while retaining backward compatibility with the huge
>code base of current perl software. While Perl 6 as a language is still
>in the design phase, many decisions are being made, and development is
>underway on Parrot, an underlying "virtual machine designed to execute
>bytecode for interpreted languages efficiently" that is intended to act
>as a platform for Perl 6, as well versions of Scheme, BASIC, Befunge,
>and other languages.
>
>In this talk Josh will cover why the world needs Perl 6, the
>over-arching Perl 6 design philosophies, some Perl 6 language features
>that are in discussion and how they differ from Perl 5, and 
>new features
>that have no Perl 5 analog. Josh will also discuss Parrot's design,
>which is driven by three principles: speed, abstraction, and stability,
>and provide an overview of the current status of Perl 6 and Parrot.
>
>***NEW LOCATION*** 
>
>Sun Microsystems Inc 
>Forth floor, Room 4140, "Grammercy Park" 
>101 Park Ave 
>New York, NY 10178-0001 
>RSVP 
>
>Please RSVP by sending an e-mail to rsvp at nysa.org with a subject line
>of "AUTO RSVP NYSA firstname lastname". The RSVP list will be given to
>building security. If you do not RSVP, you will not be able to attend
>this event. Please RSVP now if you plan to attend.
>
>PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION 
>
>Sun Microsystems, is one block south of Grand Central, on the corner of
>Park Ave and 41st St.
>
>




From trish  Wed Jun  9 16:17:33 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:17:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
References: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
Message-ID: <20040609161658.K21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 marco at metm.org wrote:

> I have no idea if anyone is up to this, but I am going to install
> FreeBSD on a VALinux server which I will use to replace the rag-tag
> group of linux boxen which make up my home servers.
>
>   It's a pretty nice machine from the 2200 series
>   -- Mylex DAC960 raid controller, with hotswappable ultra scsi disks
>   -- SMP capable motherboard with one 800Mhz cpu.
>   -- Intel everything else
>   -- I even have a manual
>

of course you realize I've put lots of these up at OSDN with FreeBSD on
them right?

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From george  Wed Jun  9 16:24:49 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:24:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FW: Short review of Secure Architectures with OpenBSD
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAY0vQriVlFUSj9kT3E6LBUgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

good stuff. . .

disclaimer: haven't read review yet. 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-misc at openbsd.org [mailto:owner-misc at openbsd.org] 
>On Behalf Of Tim Donahue
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:59 PM
>To: misc at openbsd.org
>Subject: Short review of Secure Architectures with OpenBSD
>
>There was a short review of Brandon Palmer and Jose Nazario's book
>"Secure Architectures With OpenBSD" in this week's ComputerWorld.  For
>those interested it can be found at
>http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10
>801,93626,00.html
>
>
>Tim Donahue
>
>




From george  Wed Jun  9 16:28:45 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 16:28:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FW: Calgary Hackathon
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAzyZEYjGRP0yvMdI4htHpQgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

again. .  

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-misc at openbsd.org [mailto:owner-misc at openbsd.org] 
>On Behalf Of Theo de Raadt
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 4:02 PM
>To: misc at openbsd.org
>Subject: Calgary Hackathon
>
>As some of you know, the Calgary Hackathon will come up soonish.  It's
>an invite only event, so don't bother asking for access :)
>
>I am however asking if anyone in the area has dual-Opteron they can
>lend us for the duration.
>
>(We've got a quad-Opteron that AMD donated, but we want another one :)
>
>




From marco  Wed Jun  9 17:03:48 2004
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 17:03:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <20040609161658.K21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>
References: <20040609031240.GA2249@metm.org>
	<20040609161658.K21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <20040609210347.GB2777@metm.org>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 04:17:33PM -0400, Trish Lynch wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 marco at metm.org wrote:
> 
> > I have no idea if anyone is up to this, but I am going to install
> > FreeBSD on a VALinux server which I will use to replace the rag-tag
> > group of linux boxen which make up my home servers.
> >
> >   It's a pretty nice machine from the 2200 series
> >   -- Mylex DAC960 raid controller, with hotswappable ultra scsi disks
> >   -- SMP capable motherboard with one 800Mhz cpu.
> >   -- Intel everything else
> >   -- I even have a manual
> >
> of course you realize I've put lots of these up at OSDN with FreeBSD on
> them right?
At the last meeting when George introduced you as next month's speaker,
he did mention that you were using BSD at VA.

It so happens that this box came into my possesion last weekend, and I
thought that it might be with a bit of glee that some BSD'ers would
gather around it and work their magic.  

In the quick research I did, it seems that b/c of the Mylex controller
and the SMP board that FreeBSD is the best option.  Even if this weekend
doesn't pan out I'm sure I'll have some questions, and the invitation to
hold a BSDfest holds.

-- 
Marco



From marco  Wed Jun  9 17:25:57 2004
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 17:25:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+myyYvJkyUaFLKl6Hk0RXgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <40C74697.7050300@nomadlogic.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+myyYvJkyUaFLKl6Hk0RXgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040609212556.GA3845@metm.org>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:19:35PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> 
> another night would be great for me. . .
> 
Would a day on the weekend be better for everyone?

-- 
Marco



From bsd  Wed Jun  9 17:43:24 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:43:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
References: <40C74697.7050300@nomadlogic.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA+myyYvJkyUaFLKl6Hk0RXgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040609212556.GA3845@metm.org>
Message-ID: <001701c44e6a$cac34030$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

> Would a day on the weekend be better for everyone?

Saturday-ish would be OK fer me.  I've got a hot date with a fishin' pole
Saturday nite, but that can be postponed if needed.  Sunday is out.

-Kevin





From george  Wed Jun  9 20:40:20 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:40:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <20040609212556.GA3845@metm.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAK+aJRAHE/0yAhy23457OKQEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Marco Scoffier
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:26 PM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
>
>On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:19:35PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
>> 
>> another night would be great for me. . .
>> 
>Would a day on the weekend be better for everyone?

Another adjustment. . .I *can* make it now. . .

oops.

g




From george  Wed Jun  9 21:22:03 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:22:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] flier for Dru's BSD Hacks book . . .
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAP7TVliIa/0yjd9f7iuwY/wEAAAAA@sddi.net>

ORA sent me a flier today for Dru's book. . .

it's at http://www.nycbug.org/down/bsd_hacks_flier.pdf.

it's a great resource to get around. . .and the book is brilliant.

Finally, there's a book aimed almost completely just at sysadmins, but
it also has much useful stuff for developers and end-users.

i'm doing the review for Daemon News and Slashdot. . .just built a test
FBSD 5.2.1 box to use just for the book.

I have a few copies that Michael will distribute around. . .but i want
to encourage those who receive it to use it productively. . .do a review
for somewhere. . OSNews, whatever. . .

g





From marco  Thu Jun 10 01:01:45 2004
From: marco ('Marco Scoffier')
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:01:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAK+aJRAHE/0yAhy23457OKQEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <20040609212556.GA3845@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAK+aJRAHE/0yAhy23457OKQEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040610050145.GE3845@metm.org>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 08:40:20PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
> >[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Marco Scoffier
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:26 PM
> >To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> >Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
> >
> >On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:19:35PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> >> 
> >> another night would be great for me. . .
> >> 
> >Would a day on the weekend be better for everyone?
> 
> Another adjustment. . .I *can* make it now. . .
> 

On?   On??     On???

  Off?  ...

And we're on! :)

I'm guessing we are still talking about Friday night?

-- 
Marco



From bsd  Thu Jun 10 01:35:04 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:35:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
References: <20040609212556.GA3845@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAK+aJRAHE/0yAhy23457OKQEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040610050145.GE3845@metm.org>
Message-ID: <001301c44eac$aed65500$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

Is there anyone from Jersey going?  If not, can someone please provide some
directions from over here (keeping in mind I don't know WTF I'm going)?

FYI, I can bring a spare CRT for the evening, in case anyone needs one.

-Kevin





From george  Thu Jun 10 08:48:33 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:48:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] secure fest: BSD on a classic VALinux server
In-Reply-To: <20040610050145.GE3845@metm.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAdGxiMieIhESRfvpaidyCAgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

<snip> 

>On?   On??     On???
>
>  Off?  ...
>
>And we're on! :)
>
>I'm guessing we are still talking about Friday night?
>
>-- 
>Marco

Don't make it based on me.. .but yes, i'm on again.

That's if *it's* still on.

g




From marco  Thu Jun 10 09:50:32 2004
From: marco ('Marco Scoffier')
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:50:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Friday night Directions
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAdGxiMieIhESRfvpaidyCAgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <20040610050145.GE3845@metm.org>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAdGxiMieIhESRfvpaidyCAgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040610135032.GC8390@metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 08:48:33AM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> Don't make it based on me.. .but yes, i'm on again.
> 
> That's if *it's* still on.

George,

Didn't mean to make it or not based on you.  
But as much as I imagine you would like help delegating this...
you are the heart of nycbug ;)  

Rather than ping-pong things around, I'm going to say, I'll be home
tommorrow night with beers and some plan for getting food.  Installing
or tweaking FreeBSD on my recently acquired VALinux server.  Anyone who
wants to drop by is welcome to do so, and welcome to bring a box for an
install or just chill.

I have DSL.  
  1 4 port router. 
  1 extra monitor.
  1-2 powerstrips. 
  Some extra ethernet cables.
  Large table and large loft.
  Ample parking on the street (this is Brooklyn unless there is a large
  party at the club down the street, you should be able to park on
  my street, otherwise pretty close by)

  You should probably bring your own power-cords.  
  Bring your install disks though we can burn more if need be.
  And if you can a monitor (sorry)

My address:

  35 Claver Pl. Buzzer no. 8
  Brooklyn NY 11238
  718 638 7726 (don't hesitate to call if you are lost)

Directions:  By train.

  Take the 'C' train to Franklin Ave.  Head of train.  Only one exit
  from station. Take left out of station (along Fulton back towards
  downtown Brooklyn).  First right Claver Pl. (There is a laundry place
  with big purple taj-mahal-like spires).  3rd building on right.  no.35
  Big red door well lit.  Buzzer #8 or give me a call to come down
  718 638 7726.

By Car from Manhattan:

  Take either the Manhattan or Brooklyn Bridge to Flatbush Ave.  (if you
  are a brooklyn newbie take the manhattan it dumps you straight into
  Flatbush).  Take a left on Fulton. (about 4-5 lights you just passed
  an Applebees on your left and Juniors Diner on the right).  You turn
  in front of a Popeyes (yes you are entering the land of numerous
  fried chicken places).  Stay straight on Fulton for 10-12 lights.
  You will cross Classon Ave. and take the next left. Claver Pl. no
  light.  no stop.  small street.  Black awning 'Futa Fabrics' marks
  left corner of intersection.  3rd building on right.  no.35 ,  Big red
  door well lit.  Buzzer #8 or give me a call to come down 718 638 7726.

By car from Verrezano:

  Is more complicated.  I haven't done it in a while.  Best is that you
  aim at Prospect Park.  Come up the east side.  And you can turn off
  onto Classon.  which can lead you to Fulton. Take a right.  1st left
  is Claver.  Ask me about this if you want to do it, but I'll have to
  look at a map.  
  
By Car or bike from Williamsburg or from  BQE:

  I would take Wythe Ave or the Wythe Ave exit of the BQE (one south of
  Williamsburg Bridge).  Go south on Wythe.  Wythe turns into Franklin.
  When you reach Fulton, make a right (there is an overpass for the
  subway station).  First right is Claver Pl.  3rd building on right.
  no.35 ,  Big red door well lit.  Buzzer #8 or give me a call to come
  down 718 638 7726.

-- 
Marco



From george  Thu Jun 10 10:01:23 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:01:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Friday night Directions
In-Reply-To: <20040610135032.GC8390@metm.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAACchj0JNUdkeWtgFXwHU3CAEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 


>George,
>
>Didn't mean to make it or not based on you.  
>But as much as I imagine you would like help delegating this...
>you are the heart of nycbug ;)  

it's all you marco. . .all you. . .i'm just a bystander on this.

>Rather than ping-pong things around, I'm going to say, I'll be home
>tommorrow night with beers and some plan for getting food.  Installing
>or tweaking FreeBSD on my recently acquired VALinux server.  Anyone who
>wants to drop by is welcome to do so, and welcome to bring a box for an
>install or just chill.

Anything else needed?  Who else is on?

g




From bsd  Thu Jun 10 11:59:43 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:59:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Friday night Directions
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAACchj0JNUdkeWtgFXwHU3CAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <001101c44f03$f248ccd0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

> Anything else needed?  Who else is on?

I'm still game.  If anyone else from Jersey is going, I have room for 1.

I plan on bringing the following, in case anyone is short on equipment:

patch cables
8-port switch
power cables
power strip
1 extra monitor

-Kevin




From rwbutcher  Thu Jun 10 12:01:54 2004
From: rwbutcher (Bob Butcher)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Friday night Directions
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAACchj0JNUdkeWtgFXwHU3CAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040610160154.65883.qmail@web60608.mail.yahoo.com>

> >George,
> >
> >Didn't mean to make it or not based on you.  
> >But as much as I imagine you would like help
> delegating this...
> >you are the heart of nycbug ;)  
> 
> it's all you marco. . .all you. . .i'm just a
> bystander on this.
> 
> >Rather than ping-pong things around, I'm going to
> say, I'll be home
> >tommorrow night with beers and some plan for
> getting food.  Installing
> >or tweaking FreeBSD on my recently acquired VALinux
> server.  Anyone who
> >wants to drop by is welcome to do so, and welcome
> to bring a box for an
> >install or just chill.
> 
> Anything else needed?  Who else is on?
> 
> g
> 
> _______________________________________________
Hi Marco,
  You may remember me as one of your students from a
Unix class you taught for another organization.
  I think I'll try to come but I don't see being able
to make it much before 8 pm. I have a Dell poweredge
1300 that has bsd 5.1 installed. I could use some help
with configuring the /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file. Since
I installed the OS I have purchased a sound card which
needs to be installed.
   all the best,
Bob Butcher


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/ 



From bob  Thu Jun 10 12:05:37 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:05:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>
Message-ID: <0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the whole 
CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the "Community-Oriented 
and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, they're trying to do 
what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the services for free.  
They offer email, server, and most recently code signing certificates.

The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating systems 
don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order to be fully 
authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) you need to be 
verified by an existing member with assurer (or better) status.  
Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC area!  Since these 
are the board members, anyone certified by them is immediately granted 
assurer status.  So, for those of you going, it would be awesome if you 
signed up for CAcert and got yourself assured, and we could have a 
little "key-signing party" at the end of the next nycbug meeting.  If 
three nycbug members become assured by board members, then that is 
enough to assign >100 points to new people, who can then assure each 
other, so that nycbug'er (who wants it) should be able to end up with 
full assurer status (assuming there's about 6 people who are 
interested, possibly less if I do the math).

-bob
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From marco  Thu Jun 10 12:16:41 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:16:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Friday night Directions
In-Reply-To: <20040610160154.65883.qmail@web60608.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAACchj0JNUdkeWtgFXwHU3CAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040610160154.65883.qmail@web60608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040610161640.GH8390@metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 09:01:54AM -0700, Bob Butcher wrote:
> Hi Marco,
>   You may remember me as one of your students from a
> Unix class you taught for another organization.
>   I think I'll try to come but I don't see being able
> to make it much before 8 pm. I have a Dell poweredge
> 1300 that has bsd 5.1 installed. I could use some help
> with configuring the /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file. Since
> I installed the OS I have purchased a sound card which
> needs to be installed.

Sure Bob,

Would be glad to see you again.
I plan on going late.

-- 
Marco



From bob  Thu Jun 10 14:39:28 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:39:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>
	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <819CCA3C-BB0D-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 10, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
> signing certificates.
>
> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating systems 
> don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order to be 
> fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) you need 
> to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or better) status.  
> Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC area!  Since these 
> are the board members, anyone certified by them is immediately granted 
> assurer status.  So, for those of you going, it would be awesome if 
> you signed up for CAcert and got yourself assured, and we could have a 
> little "key-signing party" at the end of the next nycbug meeting.  If 
> three nycbug members become assured by board members, then that is 
> enough to assign >100 points to new people, who can then assure each 
> other, so that nycbug'er (who wants it) should be able to end up with 
> full assurer status (assuming there's about 6 people who are 
> interested, possibly less if I do the math).

Looks like I won't even be able to make the next meeting.. I just made 
plans to go to WWDC (on a complimentary ticket, no less), so I will be 
out of town from the 28th-2nd (give or take).  I still think that 
whoever is going should look into this, so that I can get authorized in 
August :)

-bob
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From george  Thu Jun 10 19:19:52 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:19:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAetOibSk6F0urcclcX8vdqwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

We have a confirmed speaker for August 4th NYCBUG. . .

Simon Lok spoke for NYLUG many years ago, and ripped apart the CW of
network security.  His firm has a number of creative OpenBSD solutions.
His meeting will be focused on Soekris hardware with OpenBSD and pf. .
.And maybe some CARP action.  He's also a doctoral student at Columbia.

I can't tell everyone how much of a great speaker he was. . .I kept his
info around on file since I knew sooner or later we'd have a BSD User
Group in NYC.

We're still waiting on Michael Lucas' details on his visit to NYC, but
it looks like it will be in the fall.

g




From mikel.king  Fri Jun 11 00:02:04 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:02:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <819CCA3C-BB0D-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<819CCA3C-BB0D-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40C92EBC.2030607@ocsny.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 10, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
>> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
>> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
>> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
>> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
>> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
>> signing certificates.
>>
>> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating systems 
>> don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order to be 
>> fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) you 
>> need to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or better) 
>> status.  Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC area!  
>> Since these are the board members, anyone certified by them is 
>> immediately granted assurer status.  So, for those of you going, it 
>> would be awesome if you signed up for CAcert and got yourself 
>> assured, and we could have a little "key-signing party" at the end of 
>> the next nycbug meeting.  If three nycbug members become assured by 
>> board members, then that is enough to assign >100 points to new 
>> people, who can then assure each other, so that nycbug'er (who wants 
>> it) should be able to end up with full assurer status (assuming 
>> there's about 6 people who are interested, possibly less if I do the 
>> math).
>
>
> Looks like I won't even be able to make the next meeting.. I just made 
> plans to go to WWDC (on a complimentary ticket, no less), so I will be 
> out of town from the 28th-2nd (give or take).  I still think that 
> whoever is going should look into this, so that I can get authorized 
> in August :)
>
> -bob
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>
Bob,

    Thanks for the heads up on this.  There are just too many great 
projects out there that it's har sometimes to be aware of all of them.  
Well in any event I took the liberty of  registering with cacert and 
then investigating the assurance program. I then contacted them to find 
out what we are supposed to do and this is the email theat I received;

mikel king wrote:

> I've read your documentation about becoming an assurer, and I am a bit 
> unclear about the procedure for the problem of not having any assurers 
> in my area. Truth be told that's the main reason why I would be 
> interested in doing this, as I work in the NYC Metro area and know of 
> hundreds of people who would need this. If some one would contact me 
> and explain what would need to be done I'd be very appreciative.


Would you be able to get a group of people together?

Basically we're trying to cover as many people as possible and if you 
could get enough people together, I have some time after the conference 
before I fly back to Australia and I'd be even willing to suffer a bus 
trip to accommodate a large enough group...

-- 

Best regards,
 Duane

http://www.cacert.org - Free Security Certificates
http://www.nodedb.com - Think globally, network locally
http://www.sydneywireless.com - Telecommunications Freedom
http://happysnapper.com.au - Sell your photos over the net!
http://e164.org - Using Enum.164 to interconnect asterisk servers

"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the
stream always wins; not through strength, but through persistence."

I  assured Duane that I could garantee atleast 20 people and possibly 
upwards of 70. Cause if this dude is willing to stop in to check us out 
I think it'd be worth the special meeting...So who's game?




From bob  Fri Jun 11 00:40:59 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:40:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <40C92EBC.2030607@ocsny.com>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<819CCA3C-BB0D-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40C92EBC.2030607@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <8916CF59-BB61-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 11, 2004, at 12:02 AM, mikel king wrote:

> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
>>> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
>>> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
>>> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
>>> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
>>> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
>>> signing certificates.
>
>    Thanks for the heads up on this.  There are just too many great 
> projects out there that it's har sometimes to be aware of all of them. 
>  Well in any event I took the liberty of  registering with cacert and 
> then investigating the assurance program. I then contacted them to 
> find out what we are supposed to do and this is the email theat I 
> received;
>
> mikel king wrote:
>
>> I've read your documentation about becoming an assurer, and I am a 
>> bit unclear about the procedure for the problem of not having any 
>> assurers in my area. Truth be told that's the main reason why I would 
>> be interested in doing this, as I work in the NYC Metro area and know 
>> of hundreds of people who would need this. If some one would contact 
>> me and explain what would need to be done I'd be very appreciative.
>
>
> Would you be able to get a group of people together?
>
> Basically we're trying to cover as many people as possible and if you 
> could get enough people together, I have some time after the 
> conference before I fly back to Australia and I'd be even willing to 
> suffer a bus trip to accommodate a large enough group...
>
> I  assured Duane that I could garantee atleast 20 people and possibly 
> upwards of 70. Cause if this dude is willing to stop in to check us 
> out I think it'd be worth the special meeting...So who's game?

I am most definitely game, however I will be at SF for WWDC from the 
27th-4th.  Which means I miss USENIX and the next nycbug meeting.  If 
we could schedule something afterwards (i.e. take over some drinking 
establishment) it would be awesome.  I bet if we invited the NYLUG'ers 
or NYPHP (?) or whatever, we could have one ugly assurance/key signing 
orgy on our hands.

-bob

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From john  Fri Jun 11 04:15:32 2004
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:15:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] flier for Dru's BSD Hacks book . . .
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAP7TVliIa/0yjd9f7iuwY/wEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAP7TVliIa/0yjd9f7iuwY/wEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040611081532.GD1365@dancer>

* G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> [20040609 21:22]:
> Finally, there's a book aimed almost completely just at sysadmins, but
> it also has much useful stuff for developers and end-users.
> 
> i'm doing the review for Daemon News and Slashdot. . .just built a test
> FBSD 5.2.1 box to use just for the book.

You wanker! That's my idea from two weeks or more. 8)

Seriously, I read the pdf and thought, Man, this book is so nice.
Thought about that one person ~2 months ago who asked on updating ports
from source and cvs solutions yet miniscule onboard storage requirement.

I'll take one of those books, Mike. This one beckons me.

   John



From john  Fri Jun 11 04:17:06 2004
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 04:17:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAetOibSk6F0urcclcX8vdqwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAetOibSk6F0urcclcX8vdqwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040611081706.GE1365@dancer>

* G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> [20040610 19:19]:
> Simon Lok spoke for NYLUG many years ago, and ripped apart the CW of
> network security.  His firm has a number of creative OpenBSD solutions.
> His meeting will be focused on Soekris hardware with OpenBSD and pf. .
> .And maybe some CARP action.  He's also a doctoral student at Columbia.

Ahhh sh_t, I'm there.

   John



From mikel.king  Fri Jun 11 11:04:49 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:04:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert.org
Message-ID: <40C9CA11.4030801@ocsny.com>

Greetings all,

    I have been corresponding with Duane from cacert who will be in 
Boston for USENIX. He is going to be able to arrange transport down for 
the July 4th weekend. Unfortunately h has a very limited schedule, as he 
must return to Boston to catch his flight back to AU.  I've offered for 
him to crash at my place on the 4th and then hope the rail into work 
with my Monday morning.  Do a bunch of certs then head later that 
afternoon back to Boston so he ca make his flight back home.

    So how many people from this list and the nylug and nyphp would be 
willing to stop by my office, or even a diner and have an breakfast 
cert-athon?

    The goal is to get at least 20 people all together.  Please cross 
post this out to all of the NY and Northern NJ , and even Southern CT 
mailing lists you know.  Those who complete this step will become local 
assurers for CAcert.


Cheers,
m!



From george  Fri Jun 11 11:07:40 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:07:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert.org
In-Reply-To: <40C9CA11.4030801@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAuPkf8lL3n0iwbM7/MO+eIwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of mikel king
>Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 11:05 AM
>To: NYC Bug List
>Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert.org
>
>Greetings all,
>
>    I have been corresponding with Duane from cacert who will be in 
>Boston for USENIX. He is going to be able to arrange transport 
>down for 
>the July 4th weekend. Unfortunately h has a very limited 
>schedule, as he 
>must return to Boston to catch his flight back to AU.  I've 
>offered for 
>him to crash at my place on the 4th and then hope the rail into work 
>with my Monday morning.  Do a bunch of certs then head later that 
>afternoon back to Boston so he ca make his flight back home.
>
>    So how many people from this list and the nylug and nyphp would be 
>willing to stop by my office, or even a diner and have an breakfast 
>cert-athon?
>
>    The goal is to get at least 20 people all together.  Please cross 
>post this out to all of the NY and Northern NJ , and even Southern CT 
>mailing lists you know.  Those who complete this step will 
>become local 
>assurers for CAcert.
>
>
>Cheers,
>m!


Great MK. . .

I'll be at USENIX, as you guys know, so maybe he could stop by the
BSDMall table. . .Monday through Wednesday. ..

g




From george  Fri Jun 11 11:51:53 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:51:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20040611081706.GE1365@dancer>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAvFmcBWmkg0qybH+dNQCRuwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of John Bacall
>Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 4:17 AM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
>
>* G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> [20040610 19:19]:
>> Simon Lok spoke for NYLUG many years ago, and ripped apart the CW of
>> network security.  His firm has a number of creative OpenBSD 
>solutions.
>> His meeting will be focused on Soekris hardware with OpenBSD 
>and pf. .
>> .And maybe some CARP action.  He's also a doctoral student 
>at Columbia.
>
>Ahhh sh_t, I'm there.
>
>   John

Do you remember his security meeting?

Maybe you could add to my plug. . .

g




From george  Fri Jun 11 11:51:53 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:51:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] flier for Dru's BSD Hacks book . . .
In-Reply-To: <20040611081532.GD1365@dancer>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYBpaBC8D/EK3IqyVF17GkAEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of John Bacall
>Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 4:16 AM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] flier for Dru's BSD Hacks book . . .
>
>* G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> [20040609 21:22]:
>> Finally, there's a book aimed almost completely just at 
>sysadmins, but
>> it also has much useful stuff for developers and end-users.
>> 
>> i'm doing the review for Daemon News and Slashdot. . .just 
>built a test
>> FBSD 5.2.1 box to use just for the book.
>
>You wanker! That's my idea from two weeks or more. 8)
>
>Seriously, I read the pdf and thought, Man, this book is so nice.
>Thought about that one person ~2 months ago who asked on updating ports
>from source and cvs solutions yet miniscule onboard storage 
>requirement.
>
>I'll take one of those books, Mike. This one beckons me.
>
>   John

Glad to see you're as excited as I am about this book John. . .

You're gonna do a review. . .right?

g




From chrisc  Fri Jun 11 12:07:14 2004
From: chrisc (Chris Coleman)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:07:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>
	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>

Ok, I have my cert from CAcert.  Now who is going to write me an quick 
explanation of how to install it on Mail.app in my ibook?

(An article is in order on setting this up on BSD and ibooks.)

-Chris

On Jun 10, 2004, at 11:05 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
> signing certificates.
>
> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating systems 
> don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order to be 
> fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) you need 
> to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or better) status.  
> Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC area!  Since these 
> are the board members, anyone certified by them is immediately granted 
> assurer status.  So, for those of you going, it would be awesome if 
> you signed up for CAcert and got yourself assured, and we could have a 
> little "key-signing party" at the end of the next nycbug meeting.  If 
> three nycbug members become assured by board members, then that is 
> enough to assign >100 points to new people, who can then assure each 
> other, so that nycbug'er (who wants it) should be able to end up with 
> full assurer status (assuming there's about 6 people who are 
> interested, possibly less if I do the math).
>
> -bob
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
Chris Coleman			Editor in Chief
Daemon News			http://www.daemonnews.org
BSD Mall				http://www.bsdmall.com
Print Magazine			http://magazine.daemonnews.org




From george  Fri Jun 11 12:10:46 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:10:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Future Events
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAASjZVSjiRuUSvruIF+8Yb7QEAAAAA@sddi.net>

As many of you know. . .I keep the future events section of the site as
current as possible.

It's a good idea to take a look at the page on a semi-regular basis.

Hans, Trish. . .if you have any changes on your meetings, please convey
to me.

g




From dan  Fri Jun 11 12:24:00 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:24:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
References: <0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40C9A460.21469.5CBBDE6D@localhost>

On 11 Jun 2004 at 11:07, Chris Coleman wrote:

> Ok, I have my cert from CAcert.  Now who is going to write me an quick 
> explanation of how to install it on Mail.app in my ibook?
> 
> (An article is in order on setting this up on BSD and ibooks.)

I just enrolled too.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From bob  Fri Jun 11 12:26:53 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:26:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>
	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
Message-ID: <263F69EE-BBC4-11D8-8071-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

Use http://www.joar.com/certificates/ shows you how to do it with 
Thawte certs.. it should be the same, beyond the web page stuff.

-bob

On Jun 11, 2004, at 12:07 PM, Chris Coleman wrote:

> Ok, I have my cert from CAcert.  Now who is going to write me an quick 
> explanation of how to install it on Mail.app in my ibook?
>
> (An article is in order on setting this up on BSD and ibooks.)
>
> On Jun 10, 2004, at 11:05 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
>> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
>> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
>> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
>> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
>> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
>> signing certificates.
>>
>> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating systems 
>> don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order to be 
>> fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) you 
>> need to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or better) 
>> status.  Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC area!  
>> Since these are the board members, anyone certified by them is 
>> immediately granted assurer status.  So, for those of you going, it 
>> would be awesome if you signed up for CAcert and got yourself 
>> assured, and we could have a little "key-signing party" at the end of 
>> the next nycbug meeting.  If three nycbug members become assured by 
>> board members, then that is enough to assign >100 points to new 
>> people, who can then assure each other, so that nycbug'er (who wants 
>> it) should be able to end up with full assurer status (assuming 
>> there's about 6 people who are interested, possibly less if I do the 
>> math).
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From mikel.king  Fri Jun 11 12:29:12 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:29:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
Message-ID: <40C9DDD8.6070205@ocsny.com>

Chris Coleman wrote:

> Ok, I have my cert from CAcert.  Now who is going to write me an quick 
> explanation of how to install it on Mail.app in my ibook?
>
> (An article is in order on setting this up on BSD and ibooks.)
>
> -Chris
>
> On Jun 10, 2004, at 11:05 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
>> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
>> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
>> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
>> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
>> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
>> signing certificates.
>>
>> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating systems 
>> don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order to be 
>> fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) you 
>> need to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or better) 
>> status.  Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC area!  
>> Since these are the board members, anyone certified by them is 
>> immediately granted assurer status.  So, for those of you going, it 
>> would be awesome if you signed up for CAcert and got yourself 
>> assured, and we could have a little "key-signing party" at the end of 
>> the next nycbug meeting.  If three nycbug members become assured by 
>> board members, then that is enough to assign >100 points to new 
>> people, who can then assure each other, so that nycbug'er (who wants 
>> it) should be able to end up with full assurer status (assuming 
>> there's about 6 people who are interested, possibly less if I do the 
>> math).
>>
>> -bob
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> Chris Coleman            Editor in Chief
> Daemon News            http://www.daemonnews.org
> BSD Mall                http://www.bsdmall.com
> Print Magazine            http://magazine.daemonnews.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

I don't have an iBook, so will a g3 w/ 10.2 do?



From george  Fri Jun 11 12:36:56 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:36:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACert
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnlbXfyIp+U6ZUlRHv6sJnwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

I'm in too. ..

but my ibook is in the shop, and i'm on my w2k box. . .

blah.

g




From bob  Fri Jun 11 12:39:46 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:39:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <40C9DDD8.6070205@ocsny.com>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
	<40C9DDD8.6070205@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <F2CDFBF4-BBC5-11D8-8071-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 11, 2004, at 12:29 PM, mikel king wrote:

> Chris Coleman wrote:
>
>> Ok, I have my cert from CAcert.  Now who is going to write me an 
>> quick explanation of how to install it on Mail.app in my ibook?
>>
>> (An article is in order on setting this up on BSD and ibooks.)
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2004, at 11:05 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but one 
>>> thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that the 
>>> whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
>>> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
>>> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer the 
>>> services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently code 
>>> signing certificates.
>>>
>>> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating 
>>> systems don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order 
>>> to be fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) 
>>> you need to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or 
>>> better) status.  Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the NYC 
>>> area!  Since these are the board members, anyone certified by them 
>>> is immediately granted assurer status.  So, for those of you going, 
>>> it would be awesome if you signed up for CAcert and got yourself 
>>> assured, and we could have a little "key-signing party" at the end 
>>> of the next nycbug meeting.  If three nycbug members become assured 
>>> by board members, then that is enough to assign >100 points to new 
>>> people, who can then assure each other, so that nycbug'er (who wants 
>>> it) should be able to end up with full assurer status (assuming 
>>> there's about 6 people who are interested, possibly less if I do the 
>>> math).
>
> I don't have an iBook, so will a g3 w/ 10.2 do?

I'm pretty that the Mail.app that ships with 10.2 DOES NOT support 
digital signatures.

Upgrade!  10.3 is much better.

-bob
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From mikel.king  Fri Jun 11 13:07:16 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:07:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX + CACert
In-Reply-To: <F2CDFBF4-BBC5-11D8-8071-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40C705E9.30480.5280AE09@localhost>	<0356DF82-BAF8-11D8-A61E-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<6749C612-BBC1-11D8-8C02-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
	<40C9DDD8.6070205@ocsny.com>
	<F2CDFBF4-BBC5-11D8-8071-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40C9E6C4.2090601@ocsny.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 11, 2004, at 12:29 PM, mikel king wrote:
>
>> Chris Coleman wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I have my cert from CAcert.  Now who is going to write me an 
>>> quick explanation of how to install it on Mail.app in my ibook?
>>>
>>> (An article is in order on setting this up on BSD and ibooks.)
>>>
>>> On Jun 10, 2004, at 11:05 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think I'm going to be able to make USENIX this year, but 
>>>> one thing I've heard about that particularly interests me is that 
>>>> the whole CAcert crew is going to be there.  CAcert is the 
>>>> "Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority".  Basically, 
>>>> they're trying to do what Thawte, Verisign, etc. does, but offer 
>>>> the services for free.  They offer email, server, and most recently 
>>>> code signing certificates.
>>>>
>>>> The 'problem' with CAcert (other than the fact that operating 
>>>> systems don't yet trust its root cert by default), is that in order 
>>>> to be fully authorized (get 2 year certs, name on email cert, etc.) 
>>>> you need to be verified by an existing member with assurer (or 
>>>> better) status.  Unfortunately, there aren't ANY assurers in the 
>>>> NYC area!  Since these are the board members, anyone certified by 
>>>> them is immediately granted assurer status.  So, for those of you 
>>>> going, it would be awesome if you signed up for CAcert and got 
>>>> yourself assured, and we could have a little "key-signing party" at 
>>>> the end of the next nycbug meeting.  If three nycbug members become 
>>>> assured by board members, then that is enough to assign >100 points 
>>>> to new people, who can then assure each other, so that nycbug'er 
>>>> (who wants it) should be able to end up with full assurer status 
>>>> (assuming there's about 6 people who are interested, possibly less 
>>>> if I do the math).
>>>
>>
>> I don't have an iBook, so will a g3 w/ 10.2 do?
>
>
> I'm pretty that the Mail.app that ships with 10.2 DOES NOT support 
> digital signatures.
>
> Upgrade!  10.3 is much better.
>
> -bob

I upgraded to mozilla instead...;-) This way I can divert more of my 
funds to my research on beer.



From mikel.king  Fri Jun 11 13:14:34 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:14:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACert
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnlbXfyIp+U6ZUlRHv6sJnwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnlbXfyIp+U6ZUlRHv6sJnwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40C9E87A.8070007@ocsny.com>

G. Rosamond wrote:

>I'm in too. ..
>
>but my ibook is in the shop, and i'm on my w2k box. . .
>
>blah.
>
>g
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>
Awe that's ok we wont hold it against you...;-D



From trish  Fri Jun 11 15:18:05 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:18:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Future Events
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAASjZVSjiRuUSvruIF+8Yb7QEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAASjZVSjiRuUSvruIF+8Yb7QEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040611151645.D21089@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, G. Rosamond wrote:

> As many of you know. . .I keep the future events section of the site as
> current as possible.
>
> It's a good idea to take a look at the page on a semi-regular basis.
>
> Hans, Trish. . .if you have any changes on your meetings, please convey
> to me.
>
> g
>

No, I have no chenges, just a heads up. Due to some personal stuff, that
may be out of my control, I may need to reschedule for a later time, BUT
as of now, its not effecting this, so theres no need to change this right
now.

Just figured I'd give a heads up so you might have a "backup" just in
case.

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From john  Sat Jun 12 01:08:34 2004
From: john ('John Bacall')
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:08:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] flier for Dru's BSD Hacks book . . .
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYBpaBC8D/EK3IqyVF17GkAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <20040611081532.GD1365@dancer>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAYBpaBC8D/EK3IqyVF17GkAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040612050834.GA702@dancer>

* G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> [20040611 11:51]:
> Glad to see you're as excited as I am about this book John. . .
> 
> You're gonna do a review. . .right?

That's a given, Gee.

   John



From sunny-ml  Sat Jun 12 09:18:57 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:18:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAvFmcBWmkg0qybH+dNQCRuwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAvFmcBWmkg0qybH+dNQCRuwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <200406120918.57596.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Friday 11 June 2004 11:51 am, G. Rosamond wrote:

>
> Do you remember his security meeting?

It was a great meeting.  There is a video of the entire meeting at:

http://opencurve.org/~sunny/nylug/simon_lok-nylug37.mpeg.bz2

The movie was composed by taking all the broken up clips from nylug.org and 
putting them together.



From sunny-ml  Sat Jun 12 09:26:35 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:26:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200406120918.57596.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAvFmcBWmkg0qybH+dNQCRuwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<200406120918.57596.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <200406120926.35382.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Saturday 12 June 2004 09:18 am, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> The movie was composed by taking all the broken up clips from nylug.org
> and putting them together.

the movie is also 100MB, and the quality isn't that great

Sunny Dubey



From john  Sat Jun 12 01:17:02 2004
From: john ('John Bacall')
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:17:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAvFmcBWmkg0qybH+dNQCRuwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <20040611081706.GE1365@dancer>
	<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAvFmcBWmkg0qybH+dNQCRuwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040612051702.GB702@dancer>

* G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> [20040611 11:51]:
> Do you remember his security meeting?

Didn't go that one, looking at the past meetings section a while back I
thought: wtf, Theodore T'so spoke in '99; man, I suck.

> Maybe you could add to my plug. . .

I'll do a little research; spread the meeting word as well, to the
legion; and get some insights from Jim/Eric.

At the least I'll spread the word.

   John



From jesse  Sat Jun 12 12:12:41 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:12:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAetOibSk6F0urcclcX8vdqwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAetOibSk6F0urcclcX8vdqwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <54B066B4-BC8B-11D8-9780-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>


On Jun 10, 2004, at 7:19 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

> We have a confirmed speaker for August 4th NYCBUG. . .

I'll be sure to arrive on time. Still can't get over that I was too 
late for Isaac's talk. Really missed out...




From george  Sat Jun 12 12:14:44 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:14:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <54B066B4-BC8B-11D8-9780-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse Callaway [mailto:jesse at theholymountain.com] 
>Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 12:13 PM
>To: NYC List; G.Rosamond
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
>
>
>On Jun 10, 2004, at 7:19 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
>> We have a confirmed speaker for August 4th NYCBUG. . .
>
>I'll be sure to arrive on time. Still can't get over that I was too 
>late for Isaac's talk. Really missed out...
>


Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
digitized and online. ..

g




From marco  Sat Jun 12 17:26:03 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:26:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Installfest
Message-ID: <20040612212603.GB407@metm.org>

Thanks to George and Ike for stopping by last night.

I certainly got my money's worth in tech talk and tips.

I've been doing the solitary consultant thing for a while, so it was
good bouncing ideas off those two, while we were going through the
installs.

I'd be up to hosting another such event later in the summer if there is
interest.  I like the hands-on experience of going through problems
in a small group.

Hardware report:

The Mylex Raid controller seems flaky to me.  It lost the raid
configuration, and I had to do a little unplug cable, clear config dance
to get the volume back.  When we got the install down on the raid5
volume, we couldn't boot off of it.

We ended up ripping out the controller and plugging the 3 SCSI disks
into the adaptec controller on the Mobo.  Got a default install on the
first scsi disk.  I'm playing around with getting a Vinum volume (or
plex) on the other two.  If that works I'll try to put all three disks
into a Vinum volume, by booting off a spare ide drive.  But my newness
to BSD slows me down at times ;)

(I couldn't find how to put the Mylex controller into JBOD mode to try
vinum through that controller)

-- 
Marco



From bsd  Sat Jun 12 13:26:57 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:26:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
> digitized and online. ..

I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...

-Kevin




From george  Sat Jun 12 23:11:33 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:11:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Installfest
In-Reply-To: <20040612212603.GB407@metm.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAGOtENJh2WUCEm9F4Jm1RUwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of marco at metm.org
>Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 5:26 PM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: [nycbug-talk] Installfest
>
>Thanks to George and Ike for stopping by last night.
>
>I certainly got my money's worth in tech talk and tips.
>
>I've been doing the solitary consultant thing for a while, so it was
>good bouncing ideas off those two, while we were going through the
>installs.
>
>I'd be up to hosting another such event later in the summer if there is
>interest.  I like the hands-on experience of going through problems
>in a small group.
>
>Hardware report:
>
>The Mylex Raid controller seems flaky to me.  It lost the raid
>configuration, and I had to do a little unplug cable, clear 
>config dance
>to get the volume back.  When we got the install down on the raid5
>volume, we couldn't boot off of it.
>
>We ended up ripping out the controller and plugging the 3 SCSI disks
>into the adaptec controller on the Mobo.  Got a default install on the
>first scsi disk.  I'm playing around with getting a Vinum volume (or
>plex) on the other two.  If that works I'll try to put all three disks
>into a Vinum volume, by booting off a spare ide drive.  But my newness
>to BSD slows me down at times ;)
>
>(I couldn't find how to put the Mylex controller into JBOD mode to try
>vinum through that controller)

Let's schedule an actual date, say in July on a Saturday. . .a little
more advanced planning could help attendence.

it's a great location, a block and a half from the c train, 20 minutes
from manhattan.

nice loft, sdsl in the place. . .

How about Friday night, July 9th, the Friday after the July NYCBUG
meeting?

I'd be willing to do it at my place also. . .

We could do some tutorials, and bring your hardware if you want to do an
install.

Thoughts?

Thanks again Marco, and thanks again to your better half for the dinner,
which was unexpected and very much appreciated. . .

g




From john  Sat Jun 12 12:38:12 2004
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:38:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert.org
In-Reply-To: <40C9CA11.4030801@ocsny.com>
References: <40C9CA11.4030801@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <20040612163811.GB393@dancer>

* mikel king <mikel.king at ocsny.com> [20040611 11:04]:
>    The goal is to get at least 20 people all together.  Please cross 
> post this out to all of the NY and Northern NJ , and even Southern CT 
> mailing lists you know.  Those who complete this step will become local 
> assurers for CAcert.

Posted to nylug-talk. Keep us apprised of the final details.

   John



From jonathan.michael.stewart  Sun Jun 13 11:08:18 2004
From: jonathan.michael.stewart (Jonathan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:08:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
Message-ID: <40CC6DE2.8070807@us.army.mil>

Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot on my 
computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine but any recent 
(within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I can test any 
patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now while I try to get it 
to work.  I don't have a null modem cable and really don't want to pay 
Radioshack prices for one but I will if I need to.  I'm located on FT 
Drum if anyone is willing to help in person and lives nearby or knows 
someone nearby who may help.  I'd really like to get FreeBSD -current 
running because I want to stick with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several 
known security issues.  I will probably switch to -stable when it 
becomes 5-stable.

Thanks for reading this,
Jonathan



From dan  Sun Jun 13 11:21:41 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:21:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1
	release	does work)
In-Reply-To: <40CC6DE2.8070807@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost>

On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:

> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot on my 
> computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine but any recent 
> (within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I can test any 
> patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now while I try to get it 
> to work.  I don't have a null modem cable and really don't want to pay 
> Radioshack prices for one but I will if I need to.  I'm located on FT 
> Drum if anyone is willing to help in person and lives nearby or knows 
> someone nearby who may help.  I'd really like to get FreeBSD -current 
> running because I want to stick with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several 
> known security issues.  I will probably switch to -stable when it 
> becomes 5-stable.

Have you tried patching instead of upgrading?
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From jonathan.michael.stewart  Sun Jun 13 11:44:16 2004
From: jonathan.michael.stewart (Jonathan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:44:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
In-Reply-To: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost>
References: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost>
Message-ID: <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>

Dan Langille wrote:

> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
> 
> 
>>Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot on my 
>>computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine but any recent 
>>(within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I can test any 
>>patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now while I try to get it 
>>to work.  I don't have a null modem cable and really don't want to pay 
>>Radioshack prices for one but I will if I need to.  I'm located on FT 
>>Drum if anyone is willing to help in person and lives nearby or knows 
>>someone nearby who may help.  I'd really like to get FreeBSD -current 
>>running because I want to stick with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several 
>>known security issues.  I will probably switch to -stable when it 
>>becomes 5-stable.
> 
> 
> Have you tried patching instead of upgrading?

Well, I suppose I could do that but I like doing things the hard way ;) 
  that is definitely an option though. I would like to help work out 
whatever bugs are causing the problems if feasible.  I'm not a great 
coder especially in C and C++ but I do want to contribute to the 
project.  I guess you could say I'm volunteering to be an "alpha" tester.

Jonathan



From pete  Sun Jun 13 13:56:53 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:56:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
In-Reply-To: <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>
References: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost> <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <0DAFF9D0-BD63-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan wrote:

> Dan Langille wrote:
>
>> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
>>> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot on 
>>> my computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine but any 
>>> recent (within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I 
>>> can test any patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now 
>>> while I try to get it to work.  I don't have a null modem cable and 
>>> really don't want to pay Radioshack prices for one but I will if I 
>>> need to.  I'm located on FT Drum if anyone is willing to help in 
>>> person and lives nearby or knows someone nearby who may help.  I'd 
>>> really like to get FreeBSD -current running because I want to stick 
>>> with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several known security issues.  I 
>>> will probably switch to -stable when it becomes 5-stable.

i'm game to help you out but i think the folks on the list would need a 
bit more info your setup, like hardware specs etc.  also if you could 
post the output of a "dmesg."  also, are you trying to boot off GENERIC 
or is this a custom kernel?  If custom, try booting off GENERIC.  
finally, i would post the "uname" of the release that boots fine.

-p




From pete  Sun Jun 13 14:03:51 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:03:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:

>> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
>> digitized and online. ..
>
> I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...
>

heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these 
movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes they 
say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have been a 
little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a DivX .avi 
that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most likely the user 
used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the a**.  at click3x we 
usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non mac/win32 support) or 
mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on how we should post 
video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross platform).

-p

> -Kevin
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From pete  Sun Jun 13 14:08:05 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:08:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Installfest
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAGOtENJh2WUCEm9F4Jm1RUwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAGOtENJh2WUCEm9F4Jm1RUwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <9E1E2AB4-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 12, 2004, at 11:11 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
> Let's schedule an actual date, say in July on a Saturday. . .a little
> more advanced planning could help attendence.
>
> it's a great location, a block and a half from the c train, 20 minutes
> from manhattan.
>
> nice loft, sdsl in the place. . .
>
> How about Friday night, July 9th, the Friday after the July NYCBUG
> meeting?
>
> I'd be willing to do it at my place also. . .
>
> We could do some tutorials, and bring your hardware if you want to do 
> an
> install.
>
> Thoughts?
>

sorry i missed it folks :(  i'd really be into attending another 
install fest tho...i was actually thinking about this the other day.  
on bedford ave. in williamsburg there is this pretty big internet cafe 
that never has any people in it.  maybe we could hook up with them, 
maybe it'll bring some business in for them too....if there is any 
interest i'll swing by and see what they think.

-p




From jonathan.michael.stewart  Sun Jun 13 14:21:12 2004
From: jonathan.michael.stewart (Jonathan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:21:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
In-Reply-To: <0DAFF9D0-BD63-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost> <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>
	<0DAFF9D0-BD63-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40CC9B18.5020807@us.army.mil>

pete wright wrote:

> 
> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan wrote:
> 
>> Dan Langille wrote:
>>
>>> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot on 
>>>> my computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine but any 
>>>> recent (within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I 
>>>> can test any patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now 
>>>> while I try to get it to work.  I don't have a null modem cable and 
>>>> really don't want to pay Radioshack prices for one but I will if I 
>>>> need to.  I'm located on FT Drum if anyone is willing to help in 
>>>> person and lives nearby or knows someone nearby who may help.  I'd 
>>>> really like to get FreeBSD -current running because I want to stick 
>>>> with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several known security issues.  I 
>>>> will probably switch to -stable when it becomes 5-stable.
> 
> 
> i'm game to help you out but i think the folks on the list would need a 
> bit more info your setup, like hardware specs etc.  also if you could 
> post the output of a "dmesg."  also, are you trying to boot off GENERIC 
> or is this a custom kernel?  If custom, try booting off GENERIC.  
> finally, i would post the "uname" of the release that boots fine.
> 
> -p
> 

Booting GENERIC 5.2.1 and trying GENERIC -current

The computer is a Pentium I 233MHz with 128MB RAM (My desktop has 
problems too but the 233 computer will be dedicated to FreeBSD so I want 
to get it working first).  I have a site I can post anything on to avoid 
large on-list messages as well if that would be better for this list.  I 
will post a transcription of the error messages and a boot -v later but 
I'm in the middle of a 12 hour buildworld/buildkernel (trying -current 
dated 5 May 2004 to see if that works).

Uname:
FreeBSD server.kc8onw.net 5.2.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 5.2.1-RELEASE #0: Mon 
Feb 23 20:45:55 GMT 2004 
root at wv1u.btc.adaptec.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  i386

dmesg:
Copyright (c) 1992-2004 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
         The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 5.2.1-RELEASE #0: Mon Feb 23 20:45:55 GMT 2004
     root at wv1u.btc.adaptec.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
Preloaded elf kernel "/boot/5.2.1-release/kernel" at 0xc09e3000.
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
CPU: Pentium/P55C (233.86-MHz 586-class CPU)
   Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0x543  Stepping = 3
   Features=0x8001bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8,MMX>
real memory  = 134217728 (128 MB)
avail memory = 120758272 (115 MB)
Intel Pentium detected, installing workaround for F00F bug
npx0: [FAST]
npx0: <math processor> on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
pcibios: BIOS version 2.10
pcib0: <Host to PCI bridge> at pcibus 0 on motherboard
pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0
isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 7.0 on pci0
isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0
atapci0: <Intel PIIX4 UDMA33 controller> port 0xffa0-0xffaf at device 
7.1 on pci0
ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0
ata0: [MPSAFE]
ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0
ata1: [MPSAFE]
uhci0: <Intel 82371AB/EB (PIIX4) USB controller> port 0xd000-0xd01f irq 
10 at device 7.2 on pci0
usb0: <Intel 82371AB/EB (PIIX4) USB controller> on uhci0
usb0: USB revision 1.0
uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
piix0: <PIIX Timecounter> port 0x5f00-0x5f0f at device 7.3 on pci0
Timecounter "PIIX" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 0
pci0: <display, VGA> at device 8.0 (no driver attached)
dc0: <ADMtek AN985 10/100BaseTX> port 0xd800-0xd8ff mem 
0xffeef800-0xffeefbff irq 11 at device 9.0 on pci0
dc0: Ethernet address: 00:04:5a:50:27:e0
miibus0: <MII bus> on dc0
ukphy0: <Generic IEEE 802.3u media interface> on miibus0
ukphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto
orm0: <Option ROM> at iomem 0xc0000-0xc7fff on isa0
pmtimer0 on isa0
atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x64,0x60 on isa0
atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0
kbd0 at atkbd0
fdc0: <Enhanced floppy controller (i82077, NE72065 or clone)> at port 
0x3f7,0x3f0-0x3f5 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0
fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold
ppc0: <Parallel port> at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0
ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode
ppbus0: <Parallel port bus> on ppc0
plip0: <PLIP network interface> on ppbus0
lpt0: <Printer> on ppbus0
lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
ppi0: <Parallel I/O> on ppbus0
sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0
sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300>
sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0
sio0: type 16550A
sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0
sio1: type 16550A
vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0
unknown: <PNP0303> can't assign resources (port)
unknown: <PNP0501> can't assign resources (port)
unknown: <PNP0501> can't assign resources (port)
unknown: <PNP0400> can't assign resources (port)
unknown: <PNP0700> can't assign resources (port)
unknown: <PNP0c02> can't assign resources (port)
Timecounter "TSC" frequency 233864612 Hz quality 800
Timecounters tick every 10.000 msec
GEOM: create disk ad0 dp=0xc2045160
ad0: 19569MB <WDC WD205AA> [39761/16/63] at ata0-master UDMA33
acd0: CDROM <BCD-40XH CD-ROM> at ata0-slave PIO4
ata1-slave: FAILURE - ATA_IDENTIFY no interrupt
ata1-slave: FAILURE - ATA_IDENTIFY no interrupt
ata1-master: FAILURE - ATA_IDENTIFY no interrupt
ata1-master: FAILURE - ATA_IDENTIFY no interrupt
Mounting root from ufs:/dev/ad0s2a




From george  Sun Jun 13 14:24:30 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:24:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1
	releasedoes work)
In-Reply-To: <40CC9B18.5020807@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAA23TH4fAy5kqZud9QV/Eb4QEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
>Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 2:21 PM
>To: pete wright
>Cc: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to 
>boot (5.2.1 releasedoes work)
>
>pete wright wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>> 
>>> Dan Langille wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel 
>to boot on 
>>>>> my computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots 
>fine but any 
>>>>> recent (within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I 
>>>>> can test any patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now 
>>>>> while I try to get it to work.  I don't have a null modem 
>cable and 
>>>>> really don't want to pay Radioshack prices for one but I 
>will if I 
>>>>> need to.  I'm located on FT Drum if anyone is willing to help in 
>>>>> person and lives nearby or knows someone nearby who may 
>help.  I'd 
>>>>> really like to get FreeBSD -current running because I 
>want to stick 
>>>>> with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several known security issues.  I 
>>>>> will probably switch to -stable when it becomes 5-stable.
>> 
>> 
>> i'm game to help you out but i think the folks on the list 
>would need a 
>> bit more info your setup, like hardware specs etc.  also if 
>you could 
>> post the output of a "dmesg."  also, are you trying to boot 
>off GENERIC 
>> or is this a custom kernel?  If custom, try booting off GENERIC.  
>> finally, i would post the "uname" of the release that boots fine.
>> 
>> -p
>> 
>
>Booting GENERIC 5.2.1 and trying GENERIC -current
>
>The computer is a Pentium I 233MHz with 128MB RAM (My desktop has 
>problems too but the 233 computer will be dedicated to FreeBSD 
>so I want 
>to get it working first).  I have a site I can post anything 
>on to avoid 
>large on-list messages as well if that would be better for 
>this list.  I 
>will post a transcription of the error messages and a boot -v 
>later but 
>I'm in the middle of a 12 hour buildworld/buildkernel (trying -current 
>dated 5 May 2004 to see if that works).
<snip>

I actually think this list doesn't get *enough* long dmesgs.

g




From pete  Sun Jun 13 14:27:41 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:27:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
In-Reply-To: <40CC9B18.5020807@us.army.mil>
References: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost> <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>
	<0DAFF9D0-BD63-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<40CC9B18.5020807@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5AF277E4-BD67-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan wrote:

> pete wright wrote:
>
>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>> Dan Langille wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot on 
>>>>> my computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine but any 
>>>>> recent (within a month +) -current fails to boot successfully.  I 
>>>>> can test any patches etc. the machine is just sitting right now 
>>>>> while I try to get it to work.  I don't have a null modem cable 
>>>>> and really don't want to pay Radioshack prices for one but I will 
>>>>> if I need to.  I'm located on FT Drum if anyone is willing to help 
>>>>> in person and lives nearby or knows someone nearby who may help.  
>>>>> I'd really like to get FreeBSD -current running because I want to 
>>>>> stick with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several known security 
>>>>> issues.  I will probably switch to -stable when it becomes 
>>>>> 5-stable.
>> i'm game to help you out but i think the folks on the list would need 
>> a bit more info your setup, like hardware specs etc.  also if you 
>> could post the output of a "dmesg."  also, are you trying to boot off 
>> GENERIC or is this a custom kernel?  If custom, try booting off 
>> GENERIC.  finally, i would post the "uname" of the release that boots 
>> fine.
>> -p
>
> Booting GENERIC 5.2.1 and trying GENERIC -current
>
> The computer is a Pentium I 233MHz with 128MB RAM (My desktop has 
> problems too but the 233 computer will be dedicated to FreeBSD so I 
> want to get it working first).  I have a site I can post anything on 
> to avoid large on-list messages as well if that would be better for 
> this list.  I will post a transcription of the error messages and a 
> boot -v later but I'm in the middle of a 12 hour 
> buildworld/buildkernel (trying -current dated 5 May 2004 to see if 
> that works).
>

thanks for the info, also when you boot with newer builds where does 
the boot process hang?  I noticed some error messages relating to an 
ATA disk, altho i am not sure those are just diagnostics or what yet.

-p




From jonathan.michael.stewart  Sun Jun 13 15:06:39 2004
From: jonathan.michael.stewart (Jonathan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:06:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
In-Reply-To: <5AF277E4-BD67-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost> <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>
	<0DAFF9D0-BD63-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<40CC9B18.5020807@us.army.mil>
	<5AF277E4-BD67-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40CCA5BF.1050401@us.army.mil>

pete wright wrote:

> 
> On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan wrote:
> 
>> pete wright wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dan Langille wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to 
>>>>>> boot on my computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release 
>>>>>> boots fine but any recent (within a month +) -current fails
>>>>>>  to boot successfully.  I can test any patches etc. the 
>>>>>> machine is just sitting right now while I try to get it to 
>>>>>> work.  I don't have a null modem cable and really don't 
>>>>>> want to pay Radioshack prices for one but I will if I need 
>>>>>> to.  I'm located on FT Drum if anyone is willing to help in
>>>>>>  person and lives nearby or knows someone nearby who may 
>>>>>> help. I'd really like to get FreeBSD -current running 
>>>>>> because I want to stick with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has 
>>>>>> several known security issues.  I will probably switch to 
>>>>>> -stable when it becomes 5-stable.
>>> 
>>> i'm game to help you out but i think the folks on the list would 
>>> need a bit more info your setup, like hardware specs etc.  also 
>>> if you could post the output of a "dmesg."  also, are you trying 
>>> to boot off GENERIC or is this a custom kernel?  If custom, try 
>>> booting off GENERIC.  finally, i would post the "uname" of the 
>>> release that boots fine. -p
>> 
>> Booting GENERIC 5.2.1 and trying GENERIC -current
>> 
>> The computer is a Pentium I 233MHz with 128MB RAM (My desktop has 
>> problems too but the 233 computer will be dedicated to FreeBSD so I
>>  want to get it working first).  I have a site I can post anything 
>> on to avoid large on-list messages as well if that would be better 
>> for this list.  I will post a transcription of the error messages 
>> and a boot -v later but I'm in the middle of a 12 hour 
>> buildworld/buildkernel (trying -current dated 5 May 2004 to see if 
>> that works).
>> 
> thanks for the info, also when you boot with newer builds where does 
> the boot process hang?  I noticed some error messages relating to an 
> ATA disk, altho i am not sure those are just diagnostics or what yet.
> 
The ATA messages may have something to do with the fact I have a pair of
hard drives on an IDE cable but not powered, just guessing there.  I can
actually make it into single user mode but as soon as I try ANY command, 
valid or otherwise, sh crashes.  It crashes on its own going into 
multiuser mode.  How hard would it be to do a buildworld for a Pentium 
233 on my Athlon XP desktop?  I should just need to NFS mount /usr/obj 
and /usr/src to do the installkernel and installworld correct?  Also my 
messages seem to not be properly wrapped when I send them but they look 
fine while composing are they OK (Using Thunderbird 0.6)?

Thanks,
Jonathan



From pete  Sun Jun 13 15:27:13 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:27:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help getting FreeBSD current to boot (5.2.1 release
	does work)
In-Reply-To: <40CCA5BF.1050401@us.army.mil>
References: <40CC38C5.28407.66CFB620@localhost> <40CC7650.5070403@us.army.mil>
	<0DAFF9D0-BD63-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<40CC9B18.5020807@us.army.mil>
	<5AF277E4-BD67-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<40CCA5BF.1050401@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <AC2F791A-BD6F-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan wrote:

> pete wright wrote:
>
>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:21 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>> pete wright wrote:
>>>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>> Dan Langille wrote:
>>>>>> On 13 Jun 2004 at 11:08, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>>> Wold anyone be willing to help me get a -current kernel to boot  
>>>>>>> on my computer?  As the subject says 5.2.1-release boots fine  
>>>>>>> but any recent (within a month +) -current fails
>>>>>>>  to boot successfully.  I can test any patches etc. the machine  
>>>>>>> is just sitting right now while I try to get it to work.  I  
>>>>>>> don't have a null modem cable and really don't want to pay  
>>>>>>> Radioshack prices for one but I will if I need to.  I'm located  
>>>>>>> on FT Drum if anyone is willing to help in
>>>>>>>  person and lives nearby or knows someone nearby who may help.  
>>>>>>> I'd really like to get FreeBSD -current running because I want  
>>>>>>> to stick with 5.x and 5.2.1 release has several known security  
>>>>>>> issues.  I will probably switch to -stable when it becomes  
>>>>>>> 5-stable.
>>>> i'm game to help you out but i think the folks on the list would  
>>>> need a bit more info your setup, like hardware specs etc.  also if  
>>>> you could post the output of a "dmesg."  also, are you trying to  
>>>> boot off GENERIC or is this a custom kernel?  If custom, try  
>>>> booting off GENERIC.  finally, i would post the "uname" of the  
>>>> release that boots fine. -p
>>> Booting GENERIC 5.2.1 and trying GENERIC -current
>>> The computer is a Pentium I 233MHz with 128MB RAM (My desktop has  
>>> problems too but the 233 computer will be dedicated to FreeBSD so I
>>>  want to get it working first).  I have a site I can post anything  
>>> on to avoid large on-list messages as well if that would be better  
>>> for this list.  I will post a transcription of the error messages  
>>> and a boot -v later but I'm in the middle of a 12 hour  
>>> buildworld/buildkernel (trying -current dated 5 May 2004 to see if  
>>> that works).
>> thanks for the info, also when you boot with newer builds where does  
>> the boot process hang?  I noticed some error messages relating to an  
>> ATA disk, altho i am not sure those are just diagnostics or what yet.
> The ATA messages may have something to do with the fact I have a pair  
> of
> hard drives on an IDE cable but not powered, just guessing there.  I  
> can
> actually make it into single user mode but as soon as I try ANY  
> command, valid or otherwise, sh crashes.

stupid question, does this happen when you try csh instead of sh?  also  
when sh crashes what happens, hard lockup core dump etc.?

>   It crashes on its own going into multiuser mode.  How hard would it  
> be to do a buildworld for a Pentium 233 on my Athlon XP desktop?  I  
> should just need to NFS mount /usr/obj and /usr/src to do the  
> installkernel and installworld correct?


it is possible to do that, altho i have not done it.  if you search the  
FreeBSD mailing list archives, or search on google.com/bsd there are  
walkthroughs on this topic.  sorry no links :(  generally it seems you  
are on the correct path tho...

> Also my messages seem to not be properly wrapped when I send them but  
> they look fine while composing are they OK (Using Thunderbird 0.6)?

the messages look good to me, altho i'm using "mail" on my OSX box.   
thanks for mentioning that i just checked my setting and realized that  
mail defaults to RTF message composing...lame.

you may want to check out the FreeBSD current list from the past couple  
months if you have not done so already.  there is a *ton* of  
development going on on the 5.x branch and if you do not see anyone  
else reporting these problems it may be worth a shot posting a detailed  
report to the list.  altho granted given the info so far i really don't  
know what is happening on your box.

if you do go this route i'd suggest reading this link first.
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/problem-reports/ 
article.html




From bob  Sun Jun 13 16:17:20 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:17:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <AC7E859D-BD76-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:03 PM, pete wright wrote:

>
> On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>
>>> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
>>> digitized and online. ..
>>
>> I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...
>>
>
> heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these 
> movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes they 
> say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have been a 
> little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a DivX .avi 
> that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most likely the user 
> used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the a**.  at click3x we 
> usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non mac/win32 support) or 
> mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on how we should post 
> video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross platform).

VLC should probably play QuickTime on Linux.. I haven't personally 
tried this, but they support AAC and presumably MPEG-4 which uses the 
same atom-based format that QuickTime does.

-bob

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From pete  Sun Jun 13 16:26:14 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:26:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <AC7E859D-BD76-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<AC7E859D-BD76-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <EAD3A083-BD77-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 4:17 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:03 PM, pete wright wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>>
>>>> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
>>>> digitized and online. ..
>>>
>>> I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...
>>>
>>
>> heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these 
>> movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes 
>> they say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have 
>> been a little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a DivX 
>> .avi that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most likely 
>> the user used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the a**.  at 
>> click3x we usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non mac/win32 
>> support) or mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on how we should 
>> post video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross platform).
>
> VLC should probably play QuickTime on Linux.. I haven't personally 
> tried this, but they support AAC and presumably MPEG-4 which uses the 
> same atom-based format that QuickTime does.

i'm not sure what VLC is :(  we usually use mpeg2 encoding to go 
between IRIX/Linux/NT/OSx.  works good, compression not so good tho :(

-p

>
> -bob
>




From bob  Sun Jun 13 16:28:17 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:28:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <EAD3A083-BD77-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<AC7E859D-BD76-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<EAD3A083-BD77-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <33F3BFC0-BD78-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 4:26 PM, pete wright wrote:

>
> On Jun 13, 2004, at 4:17 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:03 PM, pete wright wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
>>>>> digitized and online. ..
>>>>
>>>> I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...
>>>>
>>>
>>> heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these 
>>> movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes 
>>> they say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have 
>>> been a little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a 
>>> DivX .avi that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most 
>>> likely the user used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the 
>>> a**.  at click3x we usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non 
>>> mac/win32 support) or mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on how 
>>> we should post video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross 
>>> platform).
>>
>> VLC should probably play QuickTime on Linux.. I haven't personally 
>> tried this, but they support AAC and presumably MPEG-4 which uses the 
>> same atom-based format that QuickTime does.
>
> i'm not sure what VLC is :(  we usually use mpeg2 encoding to go 
> between IRIX/Linux/NT/OSx.  works good, compression not so good tho :(

Google is your friend.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

-bob
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From pete  Sun Jun 13 17:38:24 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:38:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <33F3BFC0-BD78-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<AC7E859D-BD76-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<EAD3A083-BD77-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<33F3BFC0-BD78-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <FFC5BF95-BD81-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 13, 2004, at 4:28 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 13, 2004, at 4:26 PM, pete wright wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 4:17 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 13, 2004, at 2:03 PM, pete wright wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
>>>>>> digitized and online. ..
>>>>>
>>>>> I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me 
>>>>> to...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these 
>>>> movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes 
>>>> they say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have 
>>>> been a little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a 
>>>> DivX .avi that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most 
>>>> likely the user used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the 
>>>> a**.  at click3x we usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non 
>>>> mac/win32 support) or mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on 
>>>> how we should post video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross 
>>>> platform).
>>>
>>> VLC should probably play QuickTime on Linux.. I haven't personally 
>>> tried this, but they support AAC and presumably MPEG-4 which uses 
>>> the same atom-based format that QuickTime does.
>>
>> i'm not sure what VLC is :(  we usually use mpeg2 encoding to go 
>> between IRIX/Linux/NT/OSx.  works good, compression not so good tho 
>> :(
>
> Google is your friend.
>
> http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

ah yes the Video Lan Client forgot about that.  didn't think about 
that.  cheers!

-p

>
> -bob




From john  Mon Jun 14 00:56:14 2004
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:56:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [john@unixen.org: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 16
	June Meeting: Mikey Sklar on Electric Clothing:
	circuit/microcontroller/hardware design, programming]
Message-ID: <20040614045613.GA380@dancer>

Since this is harware heavy and Mikey's toolchain is ported to osx, *bsd
I thought you might find it interesting.

   John

----- Forwarded message from John Bacall <john at unixen.org> -----

Sender: nylug-talk-bounces at nylug.org
From: John Bacall <john at unixen.org>
Reply-To: NYLUG discussion list <nylug-talk at nylug.org>
Subject: [nylug-talk] NY Linux Users Grp. 16 June Meeting: Mikey Sklar on
	Electric Clothing: circuit/microcontroller/hardware design,
	programming
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:30:00 -0400 (EDT)
To: NYLUG-Talk <nylug-talk at nylug.org>
Delivered-To: nylug-talk at nylug.org

June 16th, 2004
Wednesday
6:30PM-8:00PM
IBM Headquarters Building
590 Madison Avenue at 57th Street
12th Floor, home to the IBM Linux Center of Competency

** RSVP Instructions **
    Unless you have already rsvp'ed for a prior meeting, everyone
    should RSVP to attend. http://rsvp.nylug.org
    Check in with photo ID at the lobby for badge and room number.


                     Mikey Sklar (Electric Clothing)
                                  -on-
 Electric Clothing: circuit/microcontroller/hardware design, programming

   
   Mikey Sklar, an electric-clothing hobbiest, will speak about
   several wearable outfits he has developed over the last year. All
   source code, schematics, and circuit board layouts were developed
   using open source software (ported to *BSD, OS X). All software and
   hardware designs are free and can be used by anyone else. Materials
   used consist of computer fans, LEDs, El Wire (electroluminescence
   wire, flexible neon), Flat El, PIC microcontrollers, homebrew PCBs,
   velcro and conductive thread.

   In the last half decade, teaching the `physical aspect' of
   computing to students with non engineering backgrounds has been on
   the rise in American universities. MIT's Media Labs, NYU's ITP
   program, and Washington State University have classes where
   students learn about bridging the everyday analog world to the
   digital world. Sensors and inexpensive microcontrollers provide the
   roadbed we need to traverse from clumsy desktops to new discreet
   embedded devices. Devices often capable of performing the likes of
   20 million operations a second for just a few dollars.

   Not surprisingly, open source software (filling a need) hands a
   bounty of development tools to the electric clothing
   do-it-yourselfer. With which novice Unix-savvy microcontroller
   enthusiasts can easily download and install many different programs
   for their hardware development. Specifically, an open source
   operating system such as Linux can run microcontroller software
   including assemblers, compilers, simulators, and rom burners.
   Fairly sophisticated schematic design, and circuit board layout
   programs exist in which all of the source code is available, and
   well supported via mail lists. Your refrain for this meeting: You
   sew, you conquer.

  For More Information Visit:

     * Mikey Sklar's Site. Detailed information on Mikey's projects,
       tool chain, and others doing this sort of work can be found
       here.
        http://www.electric-clothing.com/
     * ``All of the development software I use is Open Source. Most of
       it was written primarily for Linux, but quickly got ported to
       other BSDs and MAC OS/X.''
        http://www.electric-clothing.com/tools/index.html
     * Design and Fabrication of Textile-Based Computing
        http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/393/part3/post.html

  About Mikey Sklar:

   Mikey has been using Linux for nearly ten years, is a professional
   Unix sysadmin for the last eight of those years. Working life
   includes, AT&T Wireless, Hughes Space & Com, and Morgan Stanley. He
   specializes in remote system management hardware and firmware
   solutions for Linux. His interest in wearable electronics is a full
   time hobby. The ultimate goal, to decrease the electric clothings'
   weight while increasing the functionality of the consumer
   electronics which hang from his belt.

Free Stuff!
    Swag of undetermined value and quantity may be distributed on a
    first-come, first-served basis. Arrive early for the best selection.

Keysignings
    GPG cryptography. Immediately after the presentation and continuing
    at Stammtisch we will be gathering for a keysigning. For those who
    already have keys, please remember to bring paper printouts of your
    40-character key fingerprint, as per the instructions in our howto
    docs. If you haven't created a key yet, and for keysigning details,
    our howto docs are a must read. http://www.nylug.org/keys

Stammtisch
    After the meeting ... Join us around 8:30pm or so at TGI Friday's,
    located at 677 Lexington Avenue and 56th Street, second floor.
    Northeast corner.

Please see our home page at http://www.nylug.org for the HTMLized
version of this announcement, our archives, and a lot of other good
stuff.

Monthly Reminder!
    Please read the NYLUG-Talk Posting Guidelines at:
    http://www.nylug.org/mlistguide/

________________________________________________________________________
June 2004 - The New York Linux Users Group, NYLUG.org
_______________________________________________
The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe: http://www.nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk

----- End forwarded message -----



From bsd  Mon Jun 14 09:16:44 2004
From: bsd (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:16:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Article
Message-ID: <002201c45211$d8642560$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

Just in case there are some people who don't read Slashdot, I just saw this
on FreeBSD:

http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3367381

Cheers,
Kevin





From sunny-ml  Mon Jun 14 09:45:32 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:45:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200406140945.33186.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Sunday 13 June 2004 02:03 pm, pete wright wrote:
> On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> >> Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
> >> digitized and online. ..
> >
> > I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...
>
> heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these
> movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes they
> say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have been a
> little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a DivX .avi
> that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most likely the user
> used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the a**.  at click3x we
> usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non mac/win32 support) or
> mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on how we should post
> video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross platform).

I suggest Xvid+Ogg/Vorbis (aka, the .ogm extension), both are great open 
source technologies, great compression schemes, and even the warez kiddies 
love the above combination, heh

Sunny Dubey



From pete  Mon Jun 14 09:47:12 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:47:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Linux kernel crashing
Message-ID: <40CDAC60.9000705@nomadlogic.org>

hi all,
    so apparently there is a nasty bug in the gnu/linux kernel that will 
crash pretty much most current kernels.  it requires a simple C program 
to do it.  here is the link:

http://linuxreviews.org/news/2004-06-11_kernel_crash/index.html

blah blah blah, this is a BSD list shut up pete.  but then i read this bit:

This code only works on x86 Linux machines. This code does not compile 
(makes no executable) on sparc64 sun4u TI UltraSparc II (BlackBird). 
This doesn't affect NetBSD Stable.

what does NetBSD stable have to do with this whole issue?  typo i hope?

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Mon Jun 14 09:49:39 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:49:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200406140945.33186.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406140945.33186.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <40CDACF3.6000900@nomadlogic.org>

Sunny Dubey wrote:

>On Sunday 13 June 2004 02:03 pm, pete wright wrote:
>  
>
>>On Jun 12, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>>Big I. . .how about the video. .?  We should get these meetings
>>>>digitized and online. ..
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I can convert the existing ones to a DivX .avi if any wants me to...
>>>      
>>>
>>heh, this raises a very interesting situation.  how to encode these
>>movies.  from my experience i've had major issues with DivX.  Yes they
>>say it's cross platform, but it seems lately the codecs have been a
>>little flakey.  for example i had a windows user encode a DivX .avi
>>that would not play on any non-windows platform.  most likely the user
>>used an odd codec, but it was still a pain in the a**.  at click3x we
>>usually post movies as quicktimes (yea lame non mac/win32 support) or
>>mpeg2's.  do other folks have any ideas on how we should post
>>video...maybe real format (lame but it is cross platform).
>>    
>>
>
>I suggest Xvid+Ogg/Vorbis (aka, the .ogm extension), both are great open 
>source technologies, great compression schemes, and even the warez kiddies 
>love the above combination, heh
>  
>

cool i'll have to add that to my bag of tricks.  is this what you all 
use at nylug?

-p

>Sunny Dubey
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From anthony  Mon Jun 14 09:56:54 2004
From: anthony (Anthony Sofia)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:56:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Linux kernel crashing
In-Reply-To: <40CDAC60.9000705@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40CDAC60.9000705@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040614135654.GA59952@dryhump.net>

On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 09:47:12AM -0400, Pete Wright said:
>This code only works on x86 Linux machines. This code does not compile 
>(makes no executable) on sparc64 sun4u TI UltraSparc II (BlackBird). 
>This doesn't affect NetBSD Stable.
>

You didn't paste the best line:

If your system is a production server with 1000 on line users then do not test
this code on that box. 

What a world..

Anthony Sofia (anthony at dryhump.net)
--
I'll take care of those murderous trolls.



From marco  Mon Jun 14 09:57:57 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:57:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200406140945.33186.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406140945.33186.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <20040614135757.GH407@metm.org>

On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 09:45:32AM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote:
> 
> I suggest Xvid+Ogg/Vorbis (aka, the .ogm extension), both are great open 
> source technologies, great compression schemes, and even the warez kiddies 
> love the above combination, heh

I agree with Sunny,

Use superior open source technology people will follow. These codecs are
available for all platforms (though may require a download) but we're
talking about people who want to see a Bsd talk.  I would prefer ogg
compression, but AAC is also possible, and would give us access to more
installations (one less codec to download).

BTW I used VLC on OSX to playback a video file for an installation that
had to run off an IBook, because Apple decided to cripple Quicktime and
remove the full screen playback function... bastards...

-- 
Marco



From pete  Mon Jun 14 10:01:48 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:01:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Linux kernel crashing
In-Reply-To: <20040614135654.GA59952@dryhump.net>
References: <40CDAC60.9000705@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040614135654.GA59952@dryhump.net>
Message-ID: <40CDAFCC.8020901@nomadlogic.org>

Anthony Sofia wrote:

>On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 09:47:12AM -0400, Pete Wright said:
>  
>
>>This code only works on x86 Linux machines. This code does not compile 
>>(makes no executable) on sparc64 sun4u TI UltraSparc II (BlackBird). 
>>This doesn't affect NetBSD Stable.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>You didn't paste the best line:
>
>If your system is a production server with 1000 on line users then do not test
>this code on that box. 
>  
>
maybe it should have read:

"If you system is a production server with 1000 on line users you are 
probably not running linux"
;^) sorry i couldn't help myself...

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From chrisc  Mon Jun 14 10:17:56 2004
From: chrisc (Chris Coleman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:17:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Article
In-Reply-To: <002201c45211$d8642560$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
References: <002201c45211$d8642560$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <A1C89BC4-BE0D-11D8-998D-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>


On Jun 14, 2004, at 8:16 AM, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> Just in case there are some people who don't read Slashdot, I just saw 
> this
> on FreeBSD:
>
> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3367381
>
Slowpokes. :-)  BSDNews.com picked it up on Friday.

Chris Coleman			Editor in Chief
Daemon News			http://www.daemonnews.org
BSD Mall				http://www.bsdmall.com
Print Magazine			http://magazine.daemonnews.org




From mikel.king  Mon Jun 14 10:37:29 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:37:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [CAcert.org] Road trip update
In-Reply-To: <20040613160714.7366.qmail@flexo.sydneywireless.com>
References: <20040613160714.7366.qmail@flexo.sydneywireless.com>
Message-ID: <40CDB829.2050205@ocsny.com>

support at cacert.org wrote:

>Hi Mikel,
>
>This is a quick update to let you know of a small change of plans.
>
>Due to a lot of requests we will be extending the number of cities
>we will be going to, but due to not being able to change flights we
>only have a limited opportunity to get everything in.
>
>We will be traveling by car to Portsmouth, NH on the 3rd of July,
>and NYC on the 5th of July. If you are in either areas let and would
>like to meet up and/or be assured let us know. We're even happy to go
>out of the way a bit to try and get to as many as possible assured!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Duane Groth, President	    <duane at cacert.org>
>Adam Butler, PR/Marketing   <adam at cacert.org>
>
>CAcert Inc. - www.CAcert.org 
>Your Community-Oriented and Driven Certificate Authority
>  
>
Thanks again Duane,

    How about first thing Monday morning on the 5th that way you'll be 
able to maximize your time in the city, and drink more bee..uh..er I 
mean take more photos...;-)

    You'll have to let me know if you need a place to crash.


cheers,
mikel



From george  Mon Jun 14 10:54:53 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:54:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Article
In-Reply-To: <A1C89BC4-BE0D-11D8-998D-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAhTy2oOLB60ClE9SbzM1X8gEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Chris Coleman
>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:18 AM
>To: NYC Bug List
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Article
>
>
>On Jun 14, 2004, at 8:16 AM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>
>> Just in case there are some people who don't read Slashdot, 
>I just saw 
>> this
>> on FreeBSD:
>>
>> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3367381
>>
>Slowpokes. :-)  BSDNews.com picked it up on Friday.

yeah, but Chris, this is worth mentioning at least twice. ;-)

I think it's very significant news.

Our experience has clearly been than their has been a massive increase
in activity around the BSDs over the past year or so. . .now we have
some numbers to back it finally.

BTW, how about OBSD SMP in the new snapshots. . .*that* hit Slashdot
before DN, and DN hasn't posted it yet ;-'

g




From mikel.king  Mon Jun 14 11:16:47 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:16:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [CAcert.org] Road trip update
In-Reply-To: <40CDBCFA.2020601@cacert.org>
References: <20040613160714.7366.qmail@flexo.sydneywireless.com>
	<40CDB829.2050205@ocsny.com> <40CDBCFA.2020601@cacert.org>
Message-ID: <40CDC15F.90603@ocsny.com>

Duane wrote:

> mikel king wrote:
>
>>    How about first thing Monday morning on the 5th that way you'll be 
>> able to maximize your time in the city, and drink more bee..uh..er I 
>> mean take more photos...;-)
>>
>>    You'll have to let me know if you need a place to crash.
>
>
> At this stage lunchtime (12pm) would be closer, as we'll be doing 3.5 
> -> 4hr drive from Boston before hand... At this stage the plan is to 
> return to Boston same day as I have to fly out the next and I don't 
> want to risk missing the flight, also the flight can't be changed, 
> pity the demand hadn't been expected prior or I would have made other 
> arrangements...
>
Ok lunchtime it is...I shall find out from the other list members how 
many are going to attend and where would be the best location for this 
event.

cheers,
m



From bob  Mon Jun 14 12:00:12 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:00:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20040614135757.GH407@metm.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<004301c450a2$7b90fcc0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>
	<06AF1F00-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406140945.33186.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<20040614135757.GH407@metm.org>
Message-ID: <EB78010B-BE1B-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 14, 2004, at 9:57 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> BTW I used VLC on OSX to playback a video file for an installation that
> had to run off an IBook, because Apple decided to cripple Quicktime and
> remove the full screen playback function... bastards...

Full screen playback is one of the benefits of the registered version, 
cheap bastard :)

-bob
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From sunny-ml  Mon Jun 14 12:23:53 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:23:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <EB78010B-BE1B-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040614135757.GH407@metm.org>
	<EB78010B-BE1B-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <200406141223.53095.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Monday 14 June 2004 12:00 pm, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> On Jun 14, 2004, at 9:57 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:
> > BTW I used VLC on OSX to playback a video file for an installation that
> > had to run off an IBook, because Apple decided to cripple Quicktime and
> > remove the full screen playback function... bastards...
>
> Full screen playback is one of the benefits of the registered version,
> cheap bastard :)
>

Full screen should be a basic feature. ?Stupid crapple.

I switched my gf to Mplayer-OSX a long long time ago. ?Quicktime was more 
like AnnoyingTime because it doesn't play dvix/mp3 movies natively. ?
Instead she would have to use the dvix.com tool [1] to modify the movie so 
she could play it.

Mplayer-OSX doesn't need no conversion, nor does it charge you for a basic 
feature. (its OSS too)

Sunny Dubey

[1] ?
http://www.macos.utah.edu/Documentation/OSX_AVI_Solutions1/OSX_AVISolutionsConv.html



From bob  Mon Jun 14 12:38:22 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:38:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200406141223.53095.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040614135757.GH407@metm.org>
	<EB78010B-BE1B-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<200406141223.53095.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <404F7A92-BE21-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 14, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Monday 14 June 2004 12:00 pm, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> On Jun 14, 2004, at 9:57 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:
>>> BTW I used VLC on OSX to playback a video file for an installation 
>>> that
>>> had to run off an IBook, because Apple decided to cripple Quicktime 
>>> and
>>> remove the full screen playback function... bastards...
>>
>> Full screen playback is one of the benefits of the registered version,
>> cheap bastard :)
>>
>
> Full screen should be a basic feature. ?Stupid crapple.
>
> I switched my gf to Mplayer-OSX a long long time ago. ?Quicktime was 
> more
> like AnnoyingTime because it doesn't play dvix/mp3 movies natively. ?
> Instead she would have to use the dvix.com tool [1] to modify the 
> movie so
> she could play it.
>
> Mplayer-OSX doesn't need no conversion, nor does it charge you for a 
> basic
> feature. (its OSS too)

The registration fee for QuickTime Pro is really because it allows you 
to easily edit+encode video.  Full screen playback probably should be 
included in the basic version, but nobody is stopping you from using 
another application.  The QuickTime API doesn't particularly care 
whether or not you are registered, a third party front-end could easily 
offer such functionality without having to re-implement the hard stuff.

-bob
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From marco  Mon Jun 14 13:06:39 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:06:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] August Meeting
In-Reply-To: <404F7A92-BE21-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAnGvVzFJXFk6O+UaY99ygLAEAAAAA@sddi.net>
	<20040614135757.GH407@metm.org>
	<EB78010B-BE1B-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<200406141223.53095.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<404F7A92-BE21-11D8-BEB2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040614170639.GL407@metm.org>

On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 12:38:22PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> The registration fee for QuickTime Pro is really because it allows you 
> to easily edit+encode video.  Full screen playback probably should be 
> included in the basic version, but nobody is stopping you from using 
> another application.  The QuickTime API doesn't particularly care 
> whether or not you are registered, a third party front-end could easily 
> offer such functionality without having to re-implement the hard stuff.
> 

Full Screen Playback worked in the older (OS9) default versions of
QuickTime.  The Pro fee used to be necessary only to unlock the editing
functionality you mention.

These kinds of random decisions from marketing at apple.com are what drive
me crazy about that platform.  There are numerous other more serious but
similar cases of losing functionality through an 'upgrade'. 

Of course, if you have infinite money you enjoy throwing at a system you
can't control, these types of manipulations won't upset you :)

-- 
Marco



From rwbutcher  Mon Jun 14 14:53:17 2004
From: rwbutcher (Bob Butcher)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Installfest
In-Reply-To: <9E1E2AB4-BD64-11D8-BDFF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040614185317.49871.qmail@web60603.mail.yahoo.com>


--- pete wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> 
> On Jun 12, 2004, at 11:11 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:
> >
> > Let's schedule an actual date, say in July on a
> Saturday. . .a little
> > more advanced planning could help attendence.
> >
> > it's a great location, a block and a half from the
> c train, 20 minutes
> > from manhattan.
> >
> > nice loft, sdsl in the place. . .
> >
> > How about Friday night, July 9th, the Friday after
> the July NYCBUG
> > meeting?
> >
> > I'd be willing to do it at my place also. . .
> >
> > We could do some tutorials, and bring your
> hardware if you want to do 
> > an
> > install.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> 
> sorry i missed it folks :(  i'd really be into
> attending another 
> install fest tho...i was actually thinking about
> this the other day.  
> on bedford ave. in williamsburg there is this pretty
> big internet cafe 
> that never has any people in it.  maybe we could
> hook up with them, 
> maybe it'll bring some business in for them
> too....if there is any 
> interest i'll swing by and see what they think.
> 
> -p
> 
> _______________________________________________
An install fest is a great idea. I wanted to make it
Friday night but just ended up too far behind schedule
to make it practical. Thanks to Marco just the same
for  his offer to host and to help.
all the best-Bob


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/ 



From george  Mon Jun 14 15:33:51 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:33:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] large printer access?
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAoRyZHaimrkWetFHzX2swrgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

does anyone have access to a large printer?

bsdmall/daemonnews is going to USENIX, and we need some kind of decent
sign. . .

the letters should be about 1' high. . .

it should say Daemon News/BSD Mall

i'd appreciate it. ..please contact me off list.

i need it for june 27, as that's the date i head up to the land of the
red sox.

g




From pete  Tue Jun 15 10:20:05 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:20:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
Message-ID: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org>

Hey all,
    So the time has some to get these soekris boxen I think.  here is 
the link again:

http://www.soekris.com/

    The net4801 looks quite appealing to me, what do you all think?  If 
we can get 5 or more people to purchase one of the boxes then they will 
only cost $246 each.  That's the board with a case and power supply.  
Here is a quick description:

net4801-50: 266 Mhz CPU, 128 Mbyte SDRAM, 3 Ethernet, 2 serial, USB 
connector, CF socket, 44 pins IDE connector, 1 Mini-PCI socket, 3.3V PCI 
connector.

For a while I was looking at an Ultra5 off e-bay to act as my new 
firewall, yet after getting the extra NIC's I think this works out to be 
a better deal, not to mention the power savings.  And you get to learn 
how to install and run BSD on a Compact Flash device!  Which reminds me, 
if we do get a group to go in on this we should have a install/hack fest 
once these things come in.  I imagine that could be a bit of fun too.

So, what do you all think?

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From lists  Tue Jun 15 10:32:31 2004
From: lists (lists)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:32:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <40CF087F.4090709@genoverly.net>

on 06/15/04 10:20 Pete Wright had written...

> http://www.soekris.com/
> 
>    The net4801 looks quite appealing to me, what do you all think?

good choice.. I'll consider one.

> Which reminds me, 
> if we do get a group to go in on this we should have a install/hack fest 
> once these things come in.  I imagine that could be a bit of fun too.
> 

I'll come to the workshop even if I don't buy one.  Are you thinking 
this summer or later in the fall?

Michael



From pete  Tue Jun 15 10:43:36 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:43:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40CF087F.4090709@genoverly.net>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF087F.4090709@genoverly.net>
Message-ID: <40CF0B18.9080309@nomadlogic.org>

lists wrote:

>
>> Which reminds me, if we do get a group to go in on this we should 
>> have a install/hack fest once these things come in.  I imagine that 
>> could be a bit of fun too.
>>
>
> I'll come to the workshop even if I don't buy one.


awesome, i think it would be a great time for everyone...

> Are you thinking this summer or later in the fall?


 I'd like to do it pretty soon.  my apartment is hot enough as it is, so 
i'd love to get a smaller, more efficient firewall up before it get's 
real hot in the city.  i am also going to send an email to soekris to 
see if we (nycbug'ers) qualify for any additional discounts, so i'll 
keep everyone posted.

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Tue Jun 15 10:49:09 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:49:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Daemon News EZine
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAUf5VVc7K+0y1EQjdg/CNEQEAAAAA@sddi.net>

For those who missed it. . .the June issue of DN EZine has been out. . .


http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200406/.

g




From mikel.king  Mon Jun 14 11:33:20 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:33:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [CAcert.org] Road trip update
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAaTv4X93+qUaREblG9x32dwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAaTv4X93+qUaREblG9x32dwEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40CDC540.2010403@ocsny.com>

G. Rosamond wrote:

> 
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Duane [mailto:support at cacert.org] 
>>Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 11:05 AM
>>To: george at sddi.net
>>Cc: 'Duane'; 'David Newman'; 'John Bacall'; 'Bob Ippolito'; 
>>'Isaac Levy'; 'Sunny Dubey'; 'Heow Eide-Goodman'; 'Hans 
>>Zaunere'; ces at cescom.com; 'mikel king'
>>Subject: Re: [CAcert.org] Road trip update
>>
>>G. Rosamond wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>If we're looking at a reasonably small meeting, ie, just a 
>>>      
>>>
>>rough group
>>    
>>
>>>of reps from the user groups plus others, this is easy.
>>>
>>>If we're looking at a larger formal meeting, we'll have to 
>>>      
>>>
>>scramble on
>>    
>>
>>>this.
>>>
>>>We can try the Apple Store, Tekserve, IBM, etc.
>>>      
>>>
>>Better to do the larger group that way everyone will get 
>>assured for the 
>>maximum points and be able to assure others for up to 35 points rather 
>>then working their way up to full points by assuring 20+ others etc...
>>
>>Although, those just looking to get names on certificates or extended 
>>server certificates only need 50 assurance points and could be covered 
>>by any two people assured with 150 points each respectively, just 
>>depends on what people are after...
>>    
>>
>
>I don't know one person on this list, but I do know that the Linux User
>group (NYLUG), the BSD User Group (NYCBUG), LISP-NYC, Lower East Side
>Mac Unix User Group are here.  So we potentially have a lot.  But at
>least if a few from each group are there, we can really snowball.
>
>The biggest space we may be able to pull off is Apple's at the Soho
>location.  I am on it. . .it fits a bit over 50 people.
>
>g
>
>  
>

I believe that we might want to get a total of all the list members that 
wish to attend. Maybe put up a sign up form on the various group 
websites? If you guys don't want to get hit with the flood of emails you 
can send the to me, and I'll  keep a tally, just have 'CAcert sign up' 
in the subject ok.

We are looking at kicking this thing off from 12-1:30 and running as 
long as Duane is willing to put up with us.  My offices @ 39 W14th are 
available for this,  we can squeeze 30 people in, maybe a few more.  We 
could even consider doing this in shifts if needed.  In either event I 
hope that we come out of this with at least a handful of assurers.

cheers,
m!



From okan  Tue Jun 15 11:55:57 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:55:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40CF0B18.9080309@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF087F.4090709@genoverly.net>
	<40CF0B18.9080309@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040615155557.GA42644@yinaska.pair.com>

On Tue 2004.06.15 at 10:43 -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
> I'd like to do it pretty soon.  my apartment is hot enough as it is, so 
> i'd love to get a smaller, more efficient firewall up before it get's 
> real hot in the city.  i am also going to send an email to soekris to 
> see if we (nycbug'ers) qualify for any additional discounts, so i'll 
> keep everyone posted.

pete - i know a few people, outside of nycbug, who are interested. they
are still showing interest as of this morning. maybe the best thing
for you to do is to set a deadline on response/interest. say it is this
friday, just post to the list every night the $count. i imagine you can
say, min 5 orders @ $246 and anything past 19 is welcomed ;)

i won't tally my interest until i get solid "yes"s from them
today/tomorrow.

thanks for heading this up.

fyi, i've got a net4801 and it has been great so far - a few issues here
and there, but reguardless.

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From george  Tue Jun 15 11:59:01 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:59:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <20040615155557.GA42644@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAKL4VUaeroE2e6lnM0rpgKgEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
>[mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Okan Demirmen
>Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:56 AM
>To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
>
>On Tue 2004.06.15 at 10:43 -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
>> I'd like to do it pretty soon.  my apartment is hot enough 
>as it is, so 
>> i'd love to get a smaller, more efficient firewall up before 
>it get's 
>> real hot in the city.  i am also going to send an email to 
>soekris to 
>> see if we (nycbug'ers) qualify for any additional discounts, so i'll 
>> keep everyone posted.
>
>pete - i know a few people, outside of nycbug, who are interested. they
>are still showing interest as of this morning. maybe the best thing
>for you to do is to set a deadline on response/interest. say it is this
>friday, just post to the list every night the $count. i imagine you can
>say, min 5 orders @ $246 and anything past 19 is welcomed ;)
>
>i won't tally my interest until i get solid "yes"s from them
>today/tomorrow.
>
>thanks for heading this up.
>
>fyi, i've got a net4801 and it has been great so far - a few 
>issues here
>and there, but reguardless.

I think maybe the way to do this is have Pete collect the money at the
next NYCBUG meeting, or use Paypal. . .

Pete?

g




From pete  Tue Jun 15 12:41:43 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:41:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40CF1CF1.3060508@hirschman.net>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF1CF1.3060508@hirschman.net>
Message-ID: <40CF26C7.1070308@nomadlogic.org>

(sorry for repost Jonathan repost, didn't get cc'd to list)

Jonathan Hirschman wrote:

> Just out of curiousity - has anyone tried the PC Engines Wrap board in 
> stead? It is significantly cheaper, and has very similar specs:
>
no i have not, altho i have read great things about the soekris folks, 
and they seem pretty supportive of opensource tech (they have designed 
these boards with *BSD and gnu/linux mind).


> http://store.ituner.com/ituner/wrapboard1c.html
>
> Seems like a bargain in comparison.


i'm not too sure about that, the soekris box has more RAM, a USB 
interface, PXE boots, three onboard NIC's by default and comes with a 
case.  the ituner box may have these features as well, but i didn't see 
them on the link supplied.

in any event, we decide that the ituner is a better product than i think 
we should do it.

cheers,
   pete



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Tue Jun 15 12:50:29 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:50:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <20040615155557.GA42644@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org>
	<40CF087F.4090709@genoverly.net>	<40CF0B18.9080309@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040615155557.GA42644@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <40CF28D5.3040405@nomadlogic.org>

Okan Demirmen wrote:

>On Tue 2004.06.15 at 10:43 -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>>I'd like to do it pretty soon.  my apartment is hot enough as it is, so 
>>i'd love to get a smaller, more efficient firewall up before it get's 
>>real hot in the city.  i am also going to send an email to soekris to 
>>see if we (nycbug'ers) qualify for any additional discounts, so i'll 
>>keep everyone posted.
>>    
>>
>
>pete - i know a few people, outside of nycbug, who are interested. they
>are still showing interest as of this morning. maybe the best thing
>for you to do is to set a deadline on response/interest. say it is this
>friday, just post to the list every night the $count. i imagine you can
>say, min 5 orders @ $246 and anything past 19 is welcomed ;)
>
>  
>

yea that's great!  you should encourage them to come by the hack fest 
too, maybe we can win them over ;)  the deadline is an execellent idea.  
i am thinking of setting it on monday so that folks have a chance to 
investigate these boxes over the weekend, i know i'm usually to busy on 
workday's to check stuff like this out.

>i won't tally my interest until i get solid "yes"s from them
>today/tomorrow.
>  
>
ok that's fine with me.

>thanks for heading this up.
>
>  
>
yea no worries, i must admit the bulk discount does play a minor role ;)

>fyi, i've got a net4801 and it has been great so far - a few issues here
>and there, but reguardless.
>
>  
>

execellent!

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Tue Jun 15 12:51:42 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:51:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAKL4VUaeroE2e6lnM0rpgKgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAKL4VUaeroE2e6lnM0rpgKgEAAAAA@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40CF291E.6040407@nomadlogic.org>

G. Rosamond wrote:

>I think maybe the way to do this is have Pete collect the money at the
>next NYCBUG meeting, or use Paypal. . .
>  
>
if we do this a soon as next week i think paypal is the best shot.  i 
have an account, but i should check to make sure that it's running OK.  
i will post that info later today or tonight.

-p




-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Tue Jun 15 14:30:09 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:30:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <40CF26C7.1070308@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF1CF1.3060508@hirschman.net>
	<40CF26C7.1070308@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <07FACB3A-BEFA-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 15, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> (sorry for repost Jonathan repost, didn't get cc'd to list)
>
> Jonathan Hirschman wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiousity - has anyone tried the PC Engines Wrap board 
>> in stead? It is significantly cheaper, and has very similar specs:
>>
> no i have not, altho i have read great things about the soekris folks, 
> and they seem pretty supportive of opensource tech (they have designed 
> these boards with *BSD and gnu/linux mind).
>
>
>> http://store.ituner.com/ituner/wrapboard1c.html
>>
>> Seems like a bargain in comparison.
>
>
> i'm not too sure about that, the soekris box has more RAM, a USB 
> interface, PXE boots, three onboard NIC's by default and comes with a 
> case.  the ituner box may have these features as well, but i didn't 
> see them on the link supplied.
>
> in any event, we decide that the ituner is a better product than i 
> think we should do it.

Although the WRAP is available in a 3 NIC configuration with one 
Mini-PCI for $147, they are out of stock.  Does the Soekris also come 
with a power supply?  If so, that plus the case probably accounts for 
the majority of the price difference.

-bob
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From pete  Tue Jun 15 15:02:29 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:02:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <07FACB3A-BEFA-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF1CF1.3060508@hirschman.net>
	<40CF26C7.1070308@nomadlogic.org>
	<07FACB3A-BEFA-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40CF47C5.5050301@nomadlogic.org>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> Although the WRAP is available in a 3 NIC configuration with one 
> Mini-PCI for $147, they are out of stock.  Does the Soekris also come 
> with a power supply?  If so, that plus the case probably accounts for 
> the majority of the price difference.

the prices i have quoted are for the board+case, it does have an 
external powersupply.  i assume this is included, altho i will check.  
from the site:
Specifications:

233 to 266 Mhz NSC SC1100 single chip processor
32-256 Mbyte SDRAM, soldered on board
4 Mbit BIOS/BOOT Flash
CompactFLASH Type I/II socket, 8 Mbyte FLASH to 4Gbyte Microdrive
UltraDMA-33 interface with 44 pins connector for 2.5" Hard Drive
1-3 10/100 Mbit Ethernet ports, RJ-45
2 Serial ports, DB9 and 10 pins header
USB 1.1 interface
Power LED, Activity LED, Error LED
Mini-PCI type III socket. (t.ex for optional hardware encryption.)
PCI Slot, right angle 3.3V signaling only, dual PCI slot option planned.
12 bit general purpose I/O, 20 pins header
Temperature and voltage monitor
Hardware watchdog
Board size 5.2" x 5.7"
Power using external power supply is 6-20V DC, max 15 Watt
Option for 5V supply using internal connector
Operating temperature 0-60 ?C



-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From truk  Tue Jun 15 15:12:35 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:12:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF1CF1.3060508@hirschman.net>
	<40CF26C7.1070308@nomadlogic.org>
	<07FACB3A-BEFA-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40CF47C5.5050301@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <00d001c4530c$b7df6380$19051fac@truk>

From: "Pete Wright" <pete at nomadlogic.org>
> the prices i have quoted are for the board+case, it does have an 
> external powersupply.  i assume this is included, altho i will check.  

No. The power supply is separate. Get the 1.25A one. I've heard 
the 0.8A one is not enough current for certain situations.

-Kurt



From pete  Tue Jun 15 15:22:06 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:22:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
In-Reply-To: <00d001c4530c$b7df6380$19051fac@truk>
References: <40CF0595.9030708@nomadlogic.org> <40CF1CF1.3060508@hirschman.net>
	<40CF26C7.1070308@nomadlogic.org>
	<07FACB3A-BEFA-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40CF47C5.5050301@nomadlogic.org>
	<00d001c4530c$b7df6380$19051fac@truk>
Message-ID: <40CF4C5E.10707@nomadlogic.org>

Kurt Miller wrote:

>From: "Pete Wright" <pete at nomadlogic.org>
>  
>
>>the prices i have quoted are for the board+case, it does have an 
>>external powersupply.  i assume this is included, altho i will check.  
>>    
>>
>
>No. The power supply is separate. Get the 1.25A one. I've heard 
>the 0.8A one is not enough current for certain situations.
>
>-Kurt
>  
>
execellent, i asked the sales people about this in the email.  hopefully 
they can arrange something for us.  i'll let you all know.

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Tue Jun 15 15:27:24 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAlmYywt6RMkKqMAM01OJF+gEAAAAA@sddi.net>

To explain the revived discussions about the Soekris boxes, our August
4th meeting is about running OpenBSD's PF firewall on them.

To add to the mix, we're going to organize a separate workshop type
meeting sometime in late summer/early fall to go into a more hands-on
environment on the Soekris boxes.

Pete Wright is organizing a bulk purchase of them, so please correspond
with him off-list if you'd like to arrange payment.  He's still working
out details. . .

g




From george  Tue Jun 15 16:10:35 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:10:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] RE: [Announce-nycbug] New section to www.NYCBUG.org
In-Reply-To: <40CF4EAF.6080006@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAgHhRsZby90irAGuVbr0HUwEAAAAA@sddi.net>

 

>>All BSD OSs are welcomed to post. . .
>>  
>>
>woo hoo this is execellent!  i can't wait to see some of the NetBSD 
>boxen that get posted ;)
>thanks guys.
>
>-p

Should be fun. . .spread the word . . .

Let's fill it up. . .

g




From george  Tue Jun 15 21:06:56 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:06:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mozilla Firefox
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAAKadG7ZoDMEieAONqKocCVQEAAAAA@sddi.net>

0.9 is out. . .WoooHoooo

g




From george  Tue Jun 15 22:39:31 2004
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:39:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cleanup time: Speaker Phone
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAPGTn3jE8jEyddWJf/oR4JcKAAAAQAAAASU0i3HgdSEq7muoT0bb7awEAAAAA@sddi.net>

So I did a bit of late-spring cleaning. . .

Threw old loads of CIO magazines, BSD Documentation from before 2002,
back to 1998 or so. . .

I have one speaker phone for anyone who may need it for their PBX.

It's a Polycom SoundStation.  It used to run on a Nortel Option 51c.  I
believe it needed an analog line.

Free for the taking.  Email me off-list if you need/want it.

g




From pete  Wed Jun 16 11:40:15 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:40:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
Message-ID: <40D069DF.8090308@nomadlogic.org>

hey all,
    i remember a while back that #nycbug was running on efnet, well i 
just logged in and am sitting on that channell right now.   i am not a 
big IRC user, but thought it might be a fun way to wate time at work :)  
in any event i'm there now so swing by!  oh yea,. and if any more 
experienced IRC folks want to move to another network or admin the 
channell that'd be cool too!

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From ike  Wed Jun 16 12:53:55 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:53:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <40D069DF.8090308@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40D069DF.8090308@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <C0CAF018-BFB5-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey Pete,

On Jun 16, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Pete Wright wrote:

> i remember a while back that #nycbug was running on efnet, well i just 
> logged in and am sitting on that channell right now.   i am not a big 
> IRC user, but thought it might be a fun way to wate time at work :)  
> in any event i'm there now so swing by!  oh yea,. and if any more 
> experienced IRC folks want to move to another network or admin the 
> channell that'd be cool too!

What's the server url again?

  server: ?.efnet.something
channel: nycbug

I'll be there as fast as I can find it.

Rocket-
.ike




From pete  Wed Jun 16 12:56:51 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:56:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <C0CAF018-BFB5-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40D069DF.8090308@nomadlogic.org>
	<C0CAF018-BFB5-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <40D07BD3.7050508@nomadlogic.org>

Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey Pete,
>
> On Jun 16, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> i remember a while back that #nycbug was running on efnet, well i 
>> just logged in and am sitting on that channell right now.   i am not 
>> a big IRC user, but thought it might be a fun way to wate time at 
>> work :)  in any event i'm there now so swing by!  oh yea,. and if any 
>> more experienced IRC folks want to move to another network or admin 
>> the channell that'd be cool too!
>
>
> What's the server url again?
>
>  server: ?.efnet.something
> channel: nycbug
>
> I'll be there as fast as I can find it.
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
on xchat i just a generic efnet login...the server i'm connected to is:
irc.avalonworks.ca
i'm an irc noob tho, so maybe someone else has better info...
-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From tux  Wed Jun 16 12:58:03 2004
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:58:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
References: <40D069DF.8090308@nomadlogic.org>
	<C0CAF018-BFB5-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D07BD3.7050508@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <000f01c453c3$16c16e00$f500a8c0@hephaestus>

Fire up whatever client you're using, and to connect to the server, type:

/server irc.blessed.net  (that's one of many)

To join the channel, type:
/join #nycbug


If anyone else needs irc help, let me know.  My IRC experience is almost as
long as my resume :P

-Kevin





From dan  Wed Jun 16 13:01:37 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:01:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <000f01c453c3$16c16e00$f500a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <40D044B1.16203.769E8E26@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2004 at 12:58, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> Fire up whatever client you're using, and to connect to the server, type:
> 
> /server irc.blessed.net  (that's one of many)

In general /server irc.NETNAME will work for any NETNAME such as 
undernet.org, efnet.net, freenode.net, etc.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From tux  Wed Jun 16 13:13:51 2004
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:13:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
References: <40D044B1.16203.769E8E26@localhost>
Message-ID: <001d01c453c5$4ba5db40$f500a8c0@hephaestus>

> In general /server irc.NETNAME will work for any NETNAME such as
> undernet.org, efnet.net, freenode.net, etc.

True, but you have to find a server that's connected to the NETNAME you want
to connect to (EFNet, IRCNet, etc.)  Just typing irc.networkname.tld
doesn't always work..

(For a list of EFNet servers, look here:
http://www.erienet.net/~circle/links.html)

-Kevin





From dan  Wed Jun 16 14:22:10 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:22:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <001d01c453c5$4ba5db40$f500a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <40D05792.18842.76E84D85@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2004 at 13:13, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> > In general /server irc.NETNAME will work for any NETNAME such as
> > undernet.org, efnet.net, freenode.net, etc.
> 
> True, but you have to find a server that's connected to the NETNAME
> you want to connect to (EFNet, IRCNet, etc.) 

irc.efnet.net will find you an efnet server.
irc.undernet.org will find you an undernet server.
irc.freenode.net will find you a freenode server.

I don't see a need for a "true, but"...

> Just typing irc.networkname.tld doesn't always work.. 

Examples?
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From dan  Wed Jun 16 14:25:27 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:25:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <40D05792.18842.76E84D85@localhost>
References: <001d01c453c5$4ba5db40$f500a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <40D05857.24011.76EB4FC5@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2004 at 14:22, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 16 Jun 2004 at 13:13, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> 
> > > In general /server irc.NETNAME will work for any NETNAME such as
> > > undernet.org, efnet.net, freenode.net, etc.
> > 
> > True, but you have to find a server that's connected to the NETNAME
> > you want to connect to (EFNet, IRCNet, etc.) 
> 
> irc.efnet.net will find you an efnet server.
> irc.undernet.org will find you an undernet server.
> irc.freenode.net will find you a freenode server.
> 
> I don't see a need for a "true, but"...

Ahh, perhaps this is what you meant:

/server irc.langille.org won't find you an IRC server.  Yes, you're 
right.  By NETNAME I did not mean just any TLD.  I meant any IRC 
networks (well, for the well-thought out networks).
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From sunny-ml  Wed Jun 16 15:10:36 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:10:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <40D05792.18842.76E84D85@localhost>
References: <40D05792.18842.76E84D85@localhost>
Message-ID: <200406161510.36094.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 16 June 2004 02:22 pm, Dan Langille wrote:
> On 16 Jun 2004 at 13:13, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> > > In general /server irc.NETNAME will work for any NETNAME such as
> > > undernet.org, efnet.net, freenode.net, etc.
> >
> > True, but you have to find a server that's connected to the NETNAME
> > you want to connect to (EFNet, IRCNet, etc.)
>
> irc.efnet.net will find you an efnet server.

not always, it depends on the server's I:lines, identd requirements, etc etc 
etc

I usually just go to the network's website, and hit up which ever server has 
the highest connection count.

Sunny Dubey

PS: ?I think trouble free networks like Freenode/OFTC are much better than 
EFnet/etc



From dan  Wed Jun 16 16:16:03 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:16:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <200406161510.36094.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40D05792.18842.76E84D85@localhost>
Message-ID: <40D07243.1292.77509374@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2004 at 15:10, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Wednesday 16 June 2004 02:22 pm, Dan Langille wrote:
> > On 16 Jun 2004 at 13:13, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> > > > In general /server irc.NETNAME will work for any NETNAME such as
> > > > undernet.org, efnet.net, freenode.net, etc.
> > >
> > > True, but you have to find a server that's connected to the NETNAME
> > > you want to connect to (EFNet, IRCNet, etc.)
> >
> > irc.efnet.net will find you an efnet server.
> 
> not always, it depends on the server's I:lines, identd requirements, etc etc 
> etc
> 
> I usually just go to the network's website, and hit up which ever server has 
> the highest connection count.

*sigh*

It always happens... one attempts to provide a helpful hint and it's 
met with exceptions and points-to-prove-the-contrary, none of which 
actually contribute to the helpful hint.

Yes, I agree, it depends... It depends upon a lot of things, 
including your internet connection.

I will now withdraw from this thread which has quickly dropped below 
our normal standard.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From louis  Wed Jun 16 16:21:53 2004
From: louis (Louis Zhang)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:21:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FW: IRC SERVER
Message-ID: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONKECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>



Hi All,

I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, I can
set it for nycbug use if,
some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have bncs, or
efnet is too risky,
or whatever the reason.

I can also provide bots(though theres no need since the channel will be
there no matter what),
just let me know.



Louis Zhang
(212) 594-1074
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From louis  Wed Jun 16 15:36:19 2004
From: louis (Louis Zhang)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:36:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
Message-ID: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>

Hi All,

I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, I can
set it for nycbug use if,
some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have bncs, or
efnet is too risky,
or whatever the reason.

I can also provide bots(though theres no need since the channel will be
there no matter what),
just let me know.



Louis Zhang
(212) 594-1074
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From bob  Wed Jun 16 16:26:50 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:26:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
References: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
Message-ID: <7F7ED43B-BFD3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 16, 2004, at 3:36 PM, Louis Zhang wrote:

> I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, I 
> can set it for nycbug use if,
> some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have 
> bncs, or efnet is too risky,
>  or whatever the reason.??

If it's going to be some private server, why not just use SILC ( 
http://www.silcnet.org/ )?  That way it'd be encrypted too :)

-bob
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From ike  Wed Jun 16 16:32:02 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:32:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <7F7ED43B-BFD3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
	<7F7ED43B-BFD3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <39374344-BFD4-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Woprd All,

On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:26 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>> I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, I 
>> can set it for nycbug use if,
>> some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have 
>> bncs, or efnet is too risky,
>>  or whatever the reason.??
>
> If it's going to be some private server, why not just use SILC ( 
> http://www.silcnet.org/ )?  That way it'd be encrypted too :)

I've heard cool things about silc, but I'm +1 for sticking to IRC- 
there's good reason it's been around so long...

my 02?

Rocket-
.ike





From dan  Wed Jun 16 16:32:24 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:32:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <7F7ED43B-BFD3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
Message-ID: <40D07618.21340.775F8B5E@localhost>

On 16 Jun 2004 at 16:26, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> 
> On Jun 16, 2004, at 3:36 PM, Louis Zhang wrote:
> 
> > I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, I 
> > can set it for nycbug use if,
> > some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have 
> > bncs, or efnet is too risky,
> >  or whatever the reason.??
> 
> If it's going to be some private server, why not just use SILC ( 
> http://www.silcnet.org/ )?  That way it'd be encrypted too :)

Please, let's not use a private server.  Some of us are already on 
enough networks as it is.  Adding more private servers is strongly 
discouraged here.   Once you're on 5 or 6 networks, adding more just 
doesn't make sense.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From louis  Wed Jun 16 16:34:59 2004
From: louis (Louis Zhang)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:34:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <7F7ED43B-BFD3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONIECNCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>


> If it's going to be some private server, why not just use SILC (
> http://www.silcnet.org/ )?  That way it'd be encrypted too :)
>
> -bob

Well its not really private, just its not connected to any big networks
thats all.

louis





From bob  Wed Jun 16 16:36:23 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:36:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <40D07618.21340.775F8B5E@localhost>
References: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
	<40D07618.21340.775F8B5E@localhost>
Message-ID: <D55A8650-BFD4-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 16 Jun 2004 at 16:26, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2004, at 3:36 PM, Louis Zhang wrote:
>>
>>> I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, I
>>> can set it for nycbug use if,
>>> some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have
>>> bncs, or efnet is too risky,
>>>  or whatever the reason.??
>>
>> If it's going to be some private server, why not just use SILC (
>> http://www.silcnet.org/ )?  That way it'd be encrypted too :)
>
> Please, let's not use a private server.  Some of us are already on
> enough networks as it is.  Adding more private servers is strongly
> discouraged here.   Once you're on 5 or 6 networks, adding more just
> doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying we should, I personally just stick to freenode because 
that's where all the developer talk is..  But if we were to go out of 
our way, it would be cool to try out a more advanced protocol (though I 
guess Jabber would be an interesting candidate as well).

-bob
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From bob  Wed Jun 16 16:38:19 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:38:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <39374344-BFD4-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
	<7F7ED43B-BFD3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<39374344-BFD4-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <1A3C3FE5-BFD5-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Woprd All,
>
> On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:26 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>>> I'm currently running a private IRC server located in midtown area, 
>>> I can set it for nycbug use if,
>>> some of you would like to keep your hostnames hidden but don't have 
>>> bncs, or efnet is too risky,
>>>  or whatever the reason.??
>>
>> If it's going to be some private server, why not just use SILC ( 
>> http://www.silcnet.org/ )?  That way it'd be encrypted too :)
>
> I've heard cool things about silc, but I'm +1 for sticking to IRC- 
> there's good reason it's been around so long...

Yeah, the same reason people use POP3 and other retarded protocols.. 
the specs are too stupid to get wrong so the client-server software 
interaction generally works as expected.  No real good reason other 
than that :)

-bob
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From ike  Wed Jun 16 16:46:37 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:46:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
In-Reply-To: <40D07618.21340.775F8B5E@localhost>
References: <NJEEJLKMDCMEKHHDGEONEECMCCAA.louis@gcserve.com>
	<40D07618.21340.775F8B5E@localhost>
Message-ID: <4303C3D2-BFD6-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> Please, let's not use a private server.  Some of us are already on
> enough networks as it is.

This is a really compelling argument for freenode/efnet, so sadly -1 
for Louis's gracious offer for his service.

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Wed Jun 16 16:56:30 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:56:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
Message-ID: <A46046AA-BFD7-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Forking the thread,
Re: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER

On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:38 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>> I've heard cool things about silc, but I'm +1 for sticking to IRC- 
>> there's good reason it's been around so long...
>
> Yeah, the same reason people use POP3 and other retarded protocols.. 
> the specs are too stupid to get wrong so the client-server software 
> interaction generally works as expected.  No real good reason other 
> than that :)

Completely understandable, but I'd rather argue that SMTP is flawed 
analogous to IRC, (rather than POP3) due to the fact that the world 
still continues to use Email due to larger than a critical mass 
adopting it, regardless of it's flaws.

I'd also argue that for sanity's sake, some contexts make 
ancient/flawed protocols a good choice to use, especially when they 
aren't one's primary focus- (i.e. wanting to just use it and not get 
bogged down training people how to use it, or managing the 
software/infrastructure to maintain it).  If that makes sense.

I'm not opposed to change, the opposite in fact, but I'd rather focus 
on changing the things I can, and accept what is out of my personal 
scope (as I begrudgingly do when using email daily).

Again, this is tempered by a whopping IMHO- and am interested in any 
opposing viewpoint...

Rocket-
.ike




From mikel.king  Wed Jun 16 17:00:00 2004
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:00:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
Message-ID: <20040616210049.F1032A86E8@virtu.nyphp.org>



Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
__________
>Forking the thread,
>Re: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
>
>On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:38 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>>> I've heard cool things about silc, but I'm +1 for sticking to IRC- 
>>> there's good reason it's been around so long...
>>
>> Yeah, the same reason people use POP3 and other retarded protocols.. 
>> the specs are too stupid to get wrong so the client-server software 
>> interaction generally works as expected.  No real good reason other 
>> than that :)
>
>Completely understandable, but I'd rather argue that SMTP is flawed 
>analogous to IRC, (rather than POP3) due to the fact that the world 
>still continues to use Email due to larger than a critical mass 
>adopting it, regardless of it's flaws.
>
>I'd also argue that for sanity's sake, some contexts make 
>ancient/flawed protocols a good choice to use, especially when they 
>aren't one's primary focus- (i.e. wanting to just use it and not get 
>bogged down training people how to use it, or managing the 
>software/infrastructure to maintain it).  If that makes sense.
>
>I'm not opposed to change, the opposite in fact, but I'd rather focus 
>on changing the things I can, and accept what is out of my personal 
>scope (as I begrudgingly do when using email daily).
>
>Again, this is tempered by a whopping IMHO- and am interested in any 
>opposing viewpoint...
>
>Rocket-
>.ike
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

smoke signals, Teletype, or tin cans with string?




From bob  Wed Jun 16 17:03:34 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:03:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <E1BahN1-00085C-8Z@redivi.com>
References: <E1BahN1-00085C-8Z@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <A15E5800-BFD8-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Mikel King wrote:

>
>
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> __________
>> Forking the thread,
>> Re: [nycbug-talk] IRC SERVER
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:38 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>>> I've heard cool things about silc, but I'm +1 for sticking to IRC-
>>>> there's good reason it's been around so long...
>>>
>>> Yeah, the same reason people use POP3 and other retarded protocols..
>>> the specs are too stupid to get wrong so the client-server software
>>> interaction generally works as expected.  No real good reason other
>>> than that :)
>>
>> Completely understandable, but I'd rather argue that SMTP is flawed
>> analogous to IRC, (rather than POP3) due to the fact that the world
>> still continues to use Email due to larger than a critical mass
>> adopting it, regardless of it's flaws.
>>
>> I'd also argue that for sanity's sake, some contexts make
>> ancient/flawed protocols a good choice to use, especially when they
>> aren't one's primary focus- (i.e. wanting to just use it and not get
>> bogged down training people how to use it, or managing the
>> software/infrastructure to maintain it).  If that makes sense.
>>
>> I'm not opposed to change, the opposite in fact, but I'd rather focus
>> on changing the things I can, and accept what is out of my personal
>> scope (as I begrudgingly do when using email daily).
>>
>> Again, this is tempered by a whopping IMHO- and am interested in any
>> opposing viewpoint...
>
> smoke signals, Teletype, or tin cans with string?

BZZZZZZT! Those are physical transport layers, not protocols (though 
teletype could be considered a bit of both) :)

-bob
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From ike  Wed Jun 16 17:05:44 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:05:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
Message-ID: <EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Mikel King wrote:

> smoke signals, Teletype, or tin cans with string?

Interesting.  Might be worth exploring for a given network for 
meta-services,

According to OSI Network layer hierarchy,
Smoke Signals and Teletype Machines, and Tin Cans; all fall under,
   Physical Layer (1)

String, (for Tin Cans):
   Data Link Layer(2)

hrm...

Rocket-
.ike




From pete  Wed Jun 16 17:35:59 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:35:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>

Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Mikel King wrote:
>
>> smoke signals, Teletype, or tin cans with string?
>
>
> Interesting.  Might be worth exploring for a given network for 
> meta-services,
>
> According to OSI Network layer hierarchy,
> Smoke Signals and Teletype Machines, and Tin Cans; all fall under,
>   Physical Layer (1)
>
> String, (for Tin Cans):
>   Data Link Layer(2)
>
> hrm...


how about homing pigeons carrying tcp/ip packets printed on paper ;)
-p

>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From ike  Wed Jun 16 17:48:24 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:48:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <E4C66FEB-BFDE-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
> how about homing pigeons carrying tcp/ip packets printed on paper ;)

hrm, I don't see this in any online OSI docs- but I'd assume the 
following,


Physical Layer (1)
Homing Pigeons (and carrying apparatus)

Data Link Layer (2)
Paper

Network Layer (3)
IP, (or physical location coordinate mapping from birdbrain, 
[literally])

Transport Layer (4)
TCP (or PTP, 'piegons trusting people' who they know)

Session Layer (6)
Usually ports, but I guess Piegon cage # would suffice.

Application Layer (7)
Human manual read of the packet

--
Hrm... perhaps some sort of emergency network could be put in place for 
nycbug folks?  PGP key-signing for this emerging Piegonnet at next 
meeting? (though we have to figure out some things, as the pgp 
handshake itself could take weeks to complete...)

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Wed Jun 16 17:49:31 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:49:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] fyi- article about FreeBSD growth
Message-ID: <0C989120-BFDF-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

 From /. or daemon news or somesuch, I thought this was pretty 
interesting...

"FreeBSD, Stealth-Growth Open Source Project"
http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3367381

Rocket-
.ike




From okan  Wed Jun 16 17:58:22 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:58:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>

On Wed 2004.06.16 at 17:35 -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
> Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> >On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Mikel King wrote:
> >
> >>smoke signals, Teletype, or tin cans with string?
> >
> >
> >Interesting.  Might be worth exploring for a given network for 
> >meta-services,
> >
> >According to OSI Network layer hierarchy,
> >Smoke Signals and Teletype Machines, and Tin Cans; all fall under,
> >  Physical Layer (1)
> >
> >String, (for Tin Cans):
> >  Data Link Layer(2)
> >
> >hrm...
> 
> 
> how about homing pigeons carrying tcp/ip packets printed on paper ;)
> -p

not quite, but close: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-257064.html

okan

> >
> >Rocket-
> >.ike
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >talk mailing list
> >talk at lists.nycbug.org
> >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~~~oO00Oo~~~
> Pete Wright
> email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
> mobile: 917.415.9866
> web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From pete  Wed Jun 16 18:05:26 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:05:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <40D0C426.3000609@nomadlogic.org>

Okan Demirmen wrote:

>>
>>how about homing pigeons carrying tcp/ip packets printed on paper ;)
>>-p
>>    
>>
>
>not quite, but close: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-257064.html
>  
>

awesome that's the link i was looking for!

-p




-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Wed Jun 16 18:07:53 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:07:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
Message-ID: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>

hey all,
    So from what i've gathered on IRC and the list today it seems like a 
good amount of people like freenode.net.  i've also used it in the past 
for various projects.  right now on irc.freenode.net there are a couple 
people online.  so i guess what i'm saying is that i think we should 
make irc.freenode.net our new IRC home.  ike has provided me with a good 
link to other groups represented on freenode.net here:

http://freenode.net/groups.shtml

looks like we are in good company here.  anyway, i don't want to start a 
flame fest over this so if people have really good reasons why we 
shouldn't be using freenode you should probably let them be known.  
otherwise let's just make a decision and stick with it.
    In any event right now we have #nycbug running on efnet and 
freenode, so come online and join the fun!

also i'd like to thank all the people that offered private servers for 
our use.  that's great!  thanks!  but i think for our public forum we 
should go with a public IRC server.  but just because we are not going 
to use a private server as our main presence on IRC doesn't mean we 
wouldn't shouldn't play with other tech. like jabber and silcnet ;)

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From ike  Wed Jun 16 18:17:39 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:17:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <FA96FF54-BFE2-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

LOL

On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:58 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote:

>> how about homing pigeons carrying tcp/ip packets printed on paper ;)
>> -p
>
> not quite, but close: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-257064.html

from the end of the article:
"If all protocol tests included such good documentation, 
interoperability in the Internet would be even better," Waitzman said.

*sigh*

Rocket-
.ike




From bob  Wed Jun 16 18:19:23 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:19:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <FA96FF54-BFE2-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>
	<FA96FF54-BFE2-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <38CD31AC-BFE3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 16, 2004, at 6:17 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> LOL
>
> On Jun 16, 2004, at 5:58 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote:
>
>>> how about homing pigeons carrying tcp/ip packets printed on paper ;)
>>> -p
>>
>> not quite, but close: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-257064.html
>
> from the end of the article:
> "If all protocol tests included such good documentation, 
> interoperability in the Internet would be even better," Waitzman said.

If all protocols *had* tests..

-bob

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From ike  Wed Jun 16 18:24:47 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:24:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <38CD31AC-BFE3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <20040616210055.8F17F33F1C0@beth.easthouston.org>
	<EE98CFC2-BFD8-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D0BD3F.4040702@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040616215822.GA59745@yinaska.pair.com>
	<FA96FF54-BFE2-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<38CD31AC-BFE3-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <F96C72F8-BFE3-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 16, 2004, at 6:19 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> If all protocols *had* tests..

Indeed *sigh*

Rocket-
.ike




From sunny-ml  Thu Jun 17 02:33:05 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:33:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 16 June 2004 06:07 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
> hey all,
>     So from what i've gathered on IRC and the list today it seems like a
> good amount of people like freenode.net.  i've also used it in the past
> for various projects.  right now on irc.freenode.net there are a couple
> people online.  so i guess what i'm saying is that i think we should
> make irc.freenode.net our new IRC home.

There is a small problem:  the channel isn't registered to any "official" 
nycbug person or designee.  The channel is registered to "crohnik" who 
hasn't been seen for the last 14 weeks.  (which is over the 120 days /nick 
expiration period Freenode policy states.  When a /nick is registered, so 
are all the channels that were registered with it, meaning #nycbug no 
longer becomes a registered channel).

The best way to easily fix the registration issue is by having someone with 
a @nycbug.org email address talk to a freenode staff person in #freenode.  
The nycbug person can simply ask for channel registration, and there should 
be no reason why the freenode staffer will not transfer the channel 
registration.  (then the/a nycbug person *hint george!* should fill out the 
lengthy group-contact form on the freenode.org site).  (Who ever NYCBUG 
does choose as their IRC person should be someone who is an IRC "regular" 
to prevent loss of channel registration.)

yeah yeah, its a bit more complex than simply running a botnet on EFnet, but 
its totally worth it, especially for an OSS oriented group.  (being that 
most OSS groups are either on Freenode or OFTC).

Sunny Dubey



From sunny-ml  Thu Jun 17 02:38:23 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:38:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <200406170238.23083.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 17 June 2004 02:33 am, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>  (which is over the 120 days
> /nick expiration period Freenode policy states.  When a /nick is
> registered, so are all the channels that were registered with it, meaning
> #nycbug no longer becomes a registered channel).

totally sorry, that entire sentence was completely wrong.  What I mean to 
say is:

When a /nick is DEregistered, the channels registered with it become 
DEregistered as well.  Meaning that if "crohnik" is deregistered because he 
hasn't been seen on IRC for a while, #nycbug also becomes DEregistered.  
(whch means that people can talk in it and stuff, but no one can take 
control of the channel if an issue or event happens.)

Sunny Dubey



From bob  Thu Jun 17 03:57:26 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 03:57:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406170238.23083.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<200406170238.23083.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <F916B16A-C033-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Thursday 17 June 2004 02:33 am, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>>  (which is over the 120 days
>> /nick expiration period Freenode policy states.  When a /nick is
>> registered, so are all the channels that were registered with it, 
>> meaning
>> #nycbug no longer becomes a registered channel).
>
> totally sorry, that entire sentence was completely wrong.  What I mean 
> to
> say is:
>
> When a /nick is DEregistered, the channels registered with it become
> DEregistered as well.  Meaning that if "crohnik" is deregistered 
> because he
> hasn't been seen on IRC for a while, #nycbug also becomes DEregistered.
> (whch means that people can talk in it and stuff, but no one can take
> control of the channel if an issue or event happens.)

When is the last time an "issue or event" requiring chan services 
happened on freenode, anyway?  I've never seen one.

-bob
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From trish  Thu Jun 17 08:10:03 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:10:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC
In-Reply-To: <000f01c453c3$16c16e00$f500a8c0@hephaestus>
References: <40D069DF.8090308@nomadlogic.org>
	<C0CAF018-BFB5-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40D07BD3.7050508@nomadlogic.org>
	<000f01c453c3$16c16e00$f500a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <20040617080939.D90301@ultra.bsdunix.net>

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On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> Fire up whatever client you're using, and to connect to the server, type:
>
> /server irc.blessed.net  (that's one of many)
>
> To join the channel, type:
> /join #nycbug
>
>
> If anyone else needs irc help, let me know.  My IRC experience is almost as
> long as my resume :P
>
> -Kevin
>

Try http://www.efnet.org for a list of servers.

- -Trish

- -- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16
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From trish  Thu Jun 17 08:15:38 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:15:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <20040617081343.X90301@ultra.bsdunix.net>

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On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Wednesday 16 June 2004 06:07 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
> > hey all,
> >     So from what i've gathered on IRC and the list today it seems like a
> > good amount of people like freenode.net.  i've also used it in the past
> > for various projects.  right now on irc.freenode.net there are a couple
> > people online.  so i guess what i'm saying is that i think we should
> > make irc.freenode.net our new IRC home.
>

Except that overall, most FreeBSD people/developers are already on EFnet.

I can count a reasonable amount of committers (~70) on one channel I'm on
there.

I don;t want to run a client on multiple networks, gets difficult to keep
track of.... anyone needs me, I'll be on EFnet, not hard to find me,
follow the .signature :)

- -Trish

- -- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16
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From mikel.king  Thu Jun 17 09:16:17 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:16:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ancient protocals
In-Reply-To: <A15E5800-BFD8-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <E1BahN1-00085C-8Z@redivi.com>
	<A15E5800-BFD8-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40D199A1.5020504@ocsny.com>


>>
>> smoke signals, Teletype, or tin cans with string?
>
>
> BZZZZZZT! Those are physical transport layers, not protocols (though 
> teletype could be considered a bit of both) :)
>
> -bob

Right you are but look where they brought us. I think that smoke signal 
could be construed as both however. Transport and data. each puff of 
smoke could be representative of a packet and the grouping would 
certainly amount to some sort of information like 'Custard is in the 
valley....' In either event it was an enjoyable thread while it lasted...



From pete  Thu Jun 17 09:50:59 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:50:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406170238.23083.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>	<200406170233.05317.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<200406170238.23083.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <40D1A1C3.4080208@nomadlogic.org>

Sunny Dubey wrote:

>
>When a /nick is DEregistered, the channels registered with it become 
>DEregistered as well.  Meaning that if "crohnik" is deregistered because he 
>hasn't been seen on IRC for a while, #nycbug also becomes DEregistered.  
>(whch means that people can talk in it and stuff, but no one can take 
>control of the channel if an issue or event happens.)
>  
>

so i guess we should ask if crohnik is on the mailing list, sorry i'm 
sure who you are on the list.  if you are, could you make sure that 
#nycbug does not get deregistered until we get everything sorted out?

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From sunny-ml  Thu Jun 17 12:12:44 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:12:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <F916B16A-C033-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <40D0C4B9.6050304@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406170238.23083.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<F916B16A-C033-11D8-ACAE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <200406171212.44074.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 17 June 2004 03:57 am, Bob wrote:

> When is the last time an "issue or event" requiring chan services
> happened on freenode, anyway?  I've never seen one.
>
> -bob

I think its more an issue if policy and insurance.

In the years that #nylug has existed, I don't think there has ever been a 
real use for chanop powers ......... except once.

Just last week, there was an unruly person who joined the channel and said 
some pretty vulgar things.  Normally I wouldn't care because IRC is 
anything but PC, however this person specifically said some colorful things 
about a person we all know (or at least us nylug folks know about).

This person has been kicked off the the nylug-talk mailing list before for 
being a generally obnoxious person before.  Therefore I simply felt 
that /kb'ing the person was the best thing to do.

Sunny Dubey



From rcollins  Thu Jun 17 15:53:31 2004
From: rcollins (Robert Collins)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:53:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406171212.44074.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <20040617195337.A3BC2A85EA@virtu.nyphp.org>

> then the/a nycbug person *hint george!* should fill out
> the lengthy group-contact form on the freenode.org site).

I'd put long odds on that one, George doesn't IRC. I doubt he has an IRC
client installed. It wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't even following this
thread. Maybe if we put a subject like:

"RE: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited *just for george*

He might take notice.

-rcollins





From ike  Thu Jun 17 16:35:52 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:35:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
Message-ID: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi all,

Thought I'd put a shout out to the list, was just pricing CF cards that  
would work as HD for the soekris boards, and found these inexpensive,  
nice looking, 2.2gig cards for around $160 each- (The 4gb cards'  
prices, forgeddaboutit' IMHO)

http://www.pcmicrostore.com//PartDetail.aspx?q=p:10501216

found through pricewatch,
http://castle.pricewatch.com/search/search.idq?&CiBookMark=N-28be6a0 
-4b1a42 
-1&cr=COMPACT%20FLASH%20CF%20Card%202gb&qc=%22COMPACT%22%2A%20AND%20%22F 
LASH%22%2A%20AND%20%22CF%22%2A%20AND%20%22CARD%22%2A%20AND%20%222GB%22%2 
A&CiBookmarkSkipCount=15&r=15

--
Anyhow, thought I'd shout out to the list because these looked pretty  
darned inexpensive to me, but I don't know squat about CF cards, so any  
comments/experiences are much appreciated...  Do these things look  
sane?  Are CF cards even the way to go when building network  
firewalls/routers (and space for even full size HD's is no big  
deal...)- Are they actually easier to work with than HD's?

August meeting should be fun answering some of this stuff...
(In the meantime I'm staring at my old iPod sitting next to a torx  
driver on the desk here...)

Rocket-
.ike




From george  Thu Jun 17 16:48:01 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:48:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040617195337.A3BC2A85EA@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <20040617195337.A3BC2A85EA@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <9F55908C-C09F-11D8-A74F-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 17, 2004, at 3:53 PM, Robert Collins wrote:

>> then the/a nycbug person *hint george!* should fill out
>> the lengthy group-contact form on the freenode.org site).
>
> I'd put long odds on that one, George doesn't IRC. I doubt he has an 
> IRC
> client installed. It wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't even following 
> this
> thread. Maybe if we put a subject like:
>
> "RE: [nycbug-talk] IRC revisited *just for george*
>
> He might take notice.
>
> -rcollins
>

I did follow this thread. .although not closely. . I did see the 
*george* comment. . .

Just finally got my iBook back. . .I'm not a big IRC type. . .just 
started using IM a year ago.  I don't like the annoyances, 
interruptions, etc.

I will move into IRC at some near point. .  .But there are plenty of 
others who can take care of the contact form. .

g




From kit  Thu Jun 17 17:32:19 2004
From: kit (Kit Halsted)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:32:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
In-Reply-To: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <p06002031bcf7bd714c2e@[10.186.226.31]>

At 4:35 PM -0400 6/17/04, Isaac Levy wrote:
<...>
>Are CF cards even the way to go when building network 
>firewalls/routers (and space for even full size HD's is no big 
>deal...)- Are they actually easier to work with than HD's?

Just from reading the OBSD list, they're definitely harder to use 
than regular HDs. Gotta mount 'em RO due to the limited number of 
write cycles, etc. The big advantage is that they're cool & quiet 
compared to something with spinning platters inside.

>August meeting should be fun answering some of this stuff...
>(In the meantime I'm staring at my old iPod sitting next to a torx 
>driver on the desk here...)

Torx driver won't do you much good there. You need a "nylon tool" to 
crack that puppy.

-Kit
-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  -Benjamin Franklin

"...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
(...if you would have peace, be prepared for war)  -Flavius Vegetius Renatus



From okan  Thu Jun 17 17:38:55 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:38:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
In-Reply-To: <p06002031bcf7bd714c2e@[10.186.226.31]>
References: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<p06002031bcf7bd714c2e@[10.186.226.31]>
Message-ID: <20040617213855.GC64809@yinaska.pair.com>

On Thu 2004.06.17 at 17:32 -0400, Kit Halsted wrote:
> At 4:35 PM -0400 6/17/04, Isaac Levy wrote:
> <...>
> >Are CF cards even the way to go when building network 
> >firewalls/routers (and space for even full size HD's is no big 
> >deal...)- Are they actually easier to work with than HD's?
> 
> Just from reading the OBSD list, they're definitely harder to use 
> than regular HDs. Gotta mount 'em RO due to the limited number of 
> write cycles, etc. The big advantage is that they're cool & quiet 
> compared to something with spinning platters inside.

Yes, they do have a finite number of writes, but the advantages out
weigh the disadvantages. i don't bother with RO everything on my
flash card, though i have a few things in place to limit as much
as i can. i honestly can say when this card hits its last day, the
replacement for it will be far cheaper than what i originally paid,
despite the fact that the new card might be 2-3 larger, capacity-wise.

besides, as you pointed out, the less white noise, the better and
running these things cool and efficiently is nice.

okan

> >August meeting should be fun answering some of this stuff...
> >(In the meantime I'm staring at my old iPod sitting next to a torx 
> >driver on the desk here...)
> 
> Torx driver won't do you much good there. You need a "nylon tool" to 
> crack that puppy.
> 
> -Kit
> -- 
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  -Benjamin Franklin
> 
> "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
> (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war)  -Flavius Vegetius Renatus
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From mlists  Thu Jun 17 18:34:33 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:34:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
In-Reply-To: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20040617223433.GI32170@bizintegrators.com>

> Anyhow, thought I'd shout out to the list because these looked pretty  
> darned inexpensive to me, but I don't know squat about CF cards, so any  
> comments/experiences are much appreciated...  Do these things look  
> sane?  Are CF cards even the way to go when building network  
> firewalls/routers (and space for even full size HD's is no big  
> deal...)- Are they actually easier to work with than HD's?

You can install the OS on them the same way you would on a hard disk.
They are also supposed to be more write-resistent these days. You can
always turn off logging or mount few things to RAM..

Since there are no moving parts, they should be more reliable.
Military uses them in deserts, or something.

Overall personally they have more advantages than hard drives for
something like soekris, and then there is a coolness factor..but I've
only used them for one OS so your situation might differ. I run mine
on a 64MB CF, but people run them on 8 as well.

-bruno




From marco  Thu Jun 17 22:15:57 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:15:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
Message-ID: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>

At the risk of planning too far in advance...

I want to announce the next installfest at my place on Friday, July
16th, that's ~10 days after the next meeting (so you guys don't burn
out).

I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with general
hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
that working.

I got a great help forward from George and Ike to get on to the Vinum
raid configuration last time.

-- 
Marco



From pete  Thu Jun 17 22:59:05 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:59:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
Message-ID: <75D84F9D-C0D3-11D8-A0F0-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 17, 2004, at 10:15 PM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> At the risk of planning too far in advance...
>
> I want to announce the next installfest at my place on Friday, July
> 16th, that's ~10 days after the next meeting (so you guys don't burn
> out).
>
cool, i'll mark my calendar now

> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with general
> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
> that working.
>

yea i'm sure we can think of some issues that need to be solved between 
now and then ;)

-p




From jesse  Thu Jun 17 23:44:13 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:44:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <75D84F9D-C0D3-11D8-A0F0-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
	<75D84F9D-C0D3-11D8-A0F0-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <C3F03CDE-C0D9-11D8-9115-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>


On Jun 17, 2004, at 10:59 PM, pete wright wrote:

>
> On Jun 17, 2004, at 10:15 PM, marco at metm.org wrote:
>
>> At the risk of planning too far in advance...
>>
>> I want to announce the next installfest at my place on Friday, July
>> 16th, that's ~10 days after the next meeting (so you guys don't burn
>> out).
>>
> cool, i'll mark my calendar now
>
>> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with general
>> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
>> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
>> that working.
>>
>
> yea i'm sure we can think of some issues that need to be solved 
> between now and then ;)
>
> -p
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

I want to bring this weird box I have and hopefully get something which 
winks in the general direction of POSIX on it. Not sure it will work. 
If nothing comes of it then consider a SanDisk CF as "in the library" 
since it will be of no use to my no camera.





From bschonhorst  Fri Jun 18 10:43:32 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:43:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
Message-ID: <DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>

>
> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with general
> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
> that working.

I don't know if I will have any hardware to play with but I would love 
to come watch/hangout/learn if thats cool.

-brad
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From george  Fri Jun 18 10:45:21 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:45:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

>>
>> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with general
>> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
>> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
>> that working.
>
> I don't know if I will have any hardware to play with but I would love 
> to come watch/hangout/learn if thats cool.
>
> -brad
>

That type of activity is highly encouraged, at a minimal.

Someone keeping a list of confirms (ahem). . .

g




From bschonhorst  Fri Jun 18 10:56:35 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:56:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>

>
> On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with 
>>> general
>>> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
>>> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
>>> that working.
>>
>> I don't know if I will have any hardware to play with but I would 
>> love to come watch/hangout/learn if thats cool.
>>
>> -brad
>>

Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
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From pete  Fri Jun 18 11:01:39 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:01:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>

Brad Schonhorst wrote:

>>
>> On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with general
>>>> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
>>>> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can get
>>>> that working.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if I will have any hardware to play with but I would 
>>> love to come watch/hangout/learn if thats cool.
>>>
>>> -brad
>>>
>
> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!

brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm free.  
how is everyone else ;^)

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bschonhorst  Fri Jun 18 11:12:20 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:12:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <E5008BD5-C139-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>>>
>>> On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with 
>>>>> general
>>>>> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
>>>>> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can 
>>>>> get
>>>>> that working.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if I will have any hardware to play with but I would 
>>>> love to come watch/hangout/learn if thats cool.
>>>>
>>>> -brad
>>>>
>>
>> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
>> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
>
> brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm free.  
> how is everyone else ;^)
>

;)  I can just imagine the looks we would get, with the whole nycbug 
crew pounding on laptops at the beach...
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From george  Fri Jun 18 11:20:10 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:20:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <FD07CE14-C13A-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>>>
>>> On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the idea of having a bit of a specific topic along with 
>>>>> general
>>>>> hands-on installing.  I'm open to suggestions.  Perhaps the Soekris
>>>>> boxen if you guys are still working at them.  Or pf if people can 
>>>>> get
>>>>> that working.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if I will have any hardware to play with but I would 
>>>> love to come watch/hangout/learn if thats cool.
>>>>
>>>> -brad
>>>>
>>
>> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
>> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
>
> brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm free.  
> how is everyone else ;^)
>
> -p
>

I'm in too. . .See everyone at the beach. . . <g>

g




From pete  Fri Jun 18 11:25:02 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:25:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <E5008BD5-C139-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
	<E5008BD5-C139-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <40D3094E.10300@nomadlogic.org>

Brad Schonhorst wrote:

>>>>>
>>>
>>> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
>>> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
>>
>>
>> brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm 
>> free.  how is everyone else ;^)
>>
>
> ;)  I can just imagine the looks we would get, with the whole nycbug 
> crew pounding on laptops at the beach...


what i'd really like to see is the shape of george's laptop after taking 
it to the beach ;p

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Fri Jun 18 12:23:34 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:23:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <40D3094E.10300@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
	<E5008BD5-C139-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40D3094E.10300@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <D8471262-C143-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
>>>> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
>>>
>>>
>>> brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm 
>>> free.  how is everyone else ;^)
>>>
>>
>> ;)  I can just imagine the looks we would get, with the whole nycbug 
>> crew pounding on laptops at the beach...
>
> what i'd really like to see is the shape of george's laptop after 
> taking it to the beach ;p

Dropping an iBook on the sand is probably a little safer than the 
sidewalk, no? :)

-bob
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From marco  Fri Jun 18 12:34:10 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:34:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <E5008BD5-C139-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
	<E5008BD5-C139-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <20040618163409.GQ361@metm.org>

On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 11:12:20AM -0400, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> ;)  I can just imagine the looks we would get, with the whole nycbug 
> crew pounding on laptops at the beach...

You know, it gets pretty sunny at my place.  We could hold the
installfest during the day, and have a bunch of you sitting in the sun
here fiddling with the brightness button on your lcds...

Then you don't have to worry about getting sand in your electronics :)

-- 
Marco



From truk  Fri Jun 18 13:54:17 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:54:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
References: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <009c01c4555d$469de950$290110ac@truk>

From: "Isaac Levy" <ike at lesmuug.org>
> Hi all,
> 
> Thought I'd put a shout out to the list, was just pricing CF cards that  
> would work as HD for the soekris boards, and found these inexpensive,  
> nice looking, 2.2gig cards for around $160 each- (The 4gb cards'  
> prices, forgeddaboutit' IMHO)
> 

I'd be careful about buying microdrives for soekris. I'm currently
experiencing a problem with the 1GB IBM Microdrive. It causes
the soekris BIOS to think there is a second drive in the unit when
there isn't. Usually causes the soekris to crash hard upon reboot.
Power cycling the unit gets a good boot. OTOH, my 2GB Hitachi
microdrive works ok. Probably worth it to ask to see if anyone is
using the microdrive successfully on soekris-tech before buying.

I've decided to go with a 512MB flash card for my soekris 
firewall. 512MB is enough for a 'normal' OpenBSD install less 
games.tgz and x*.tgz. I've haven't setup the mfs stuff yet but
will do as soon as the flash card comes in (still using the 
microdrive).

For another soekris I'm waiting for a 64MB CF and USB hard 
drive to arrive to build a email virus/spam gateway. 64MB for the
root partition and the rest on the USB drive. Unfortunately, the 4801
can't boot off a USB drive, but a 64MB CF is < $30.

-Kurt



From truk  Fri Jun 18 14:03:42 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:03:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
Message-ID: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>

I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?

http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx?pid=virtualpc

-Kurt



From pete  Fri Jun 18 14:31:26 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:31:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <40D334FE.5040800@nomadlogic.org>

Kurt Miller wrote:

>I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
>a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
>my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
>would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
>run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
>  
>

i've used it a bit before it was bought by redmond.  it's pretty great, 
altho i am not sure about non-ms support now.  ike and i were talking 
about this a while back too, he seemed to have very good things to say 
about it.

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From marco  Fri Jun 18 14:42:02 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:42:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>

On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 02:03:42PM -0400, Kurt Miller wrote:
> I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
> a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
> my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
> would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
> run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
> 
> http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx?pid=virtualpc
> 

KISS principle.

I've got to wonder why you would give yourself the headache of trying to
run two emulation environments. When you could run OpenBSD native on
another laptop.  Of course you could also run another free ppc os on your
iBook like I do.

-- 
Marco



From krook  Fri Jun 18 14:55:24 2004
From: krook (Daniel Krook)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:55:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <OF03BB4E9C.6396D1CF-ON85256EB7.00666DEF-85256EB7.0067F2D0@us.ibm.com>

> I think it
> would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
> run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?


I installed the Standalone edition of VirtualPC on my Mac a couple of 
months ago do some testing in Windows 2000, and even though it was the 
latest from MS, I seem to recall that there was an option in there to 
install other OSes, including an explicit mention of Linux. 

I did the W2K install via from my own CD and it offered the option of 
adding any number of other OSes later.  I believe the VM masquerades as an 
x86 Pentium II, so I would assume sticking a BSD on there is a 
possibility.

I'd give it a go myself but I'm in the process of moving and my Mac is 
packed away, so I can't test it for you.








Daniel Krook, Application Developer
WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com
1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604

Personal: http://info.krook.org/
Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897

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From okan  Fri Jun 18 14:56:41 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:56:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
Message-ID: <20040618185641.GC46484@yinaska.pair.com>

On Fri 2004.06.18 at 14:42 -0400, marco at metm.org wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 02:03:42PM -0400, Kurt Miller wrote:
> > I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
> > a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
> > my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
> > would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
> > run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
> > 
> > http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx?pid=virtualpc
> > 
> 
> KISS principle.

Sure, KISS. Though I must admit, I've considered Virtual PC as well.
As much as I love running OpenBSD on my powerbook and i386 laptop,
this industry forces me into using Windows apps such as Visio and
Remedy and all the shit Cisco clients, etc, etc, etc. Having to
reboot my i386 box back and forth is a pain. Eliminating one variable,
by emulating it, is a good alternative, and why not on my fastest
machine, my powerbook, though OSX is considerable slower than when
OpenBSD is running. Frankly, I am so annoyed about the disk
requirements of Windows and its apps that every few months I have
to squeeze more room from my BSD paritions to give to Windows, which
isn't trivial with screwing up both installs.  Emulating helps.

/end rant

Okan

> I've got to wonder why you would give yourself the headache of trying to
> run two emulation environments. When you could run OpenBSD native on
> another laptop.  Of course you could also run another free ppc os on your
> iBook like I do.

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From okan  Fri Jun 18 14:57:56 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:57:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <20040618185641.GC46484@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
	<20040618185641.GC46484@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20040618185756.GD46484@yinaska.pair.com>

of course, i just avioded the OP's question ;) i don't know is my
only comment ;)

On Fri 2004.06.18 at 14:56 -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> On Fri 2004.06.18 at 14:42 -0400, marco at metm.org wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 02:03:42PM -0400, Kurt Miller wrote:
> > > I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
> > > a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
> > > my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
> > > would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
> > > run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
> > > 
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx?pid=virtualpc
> > > 
> > 
> > KISS principle.
> 
> Sure, KISS. Though I must admit, I've considered Virtual PC as well.
> As much as I love running OpenBSD on my powerbook and i386 laptop,
> this industry forces me into using Windows apps such as Visio and
> Remedy and all the shit Cisco clients, etc, etc, etc. Having to
> reboot my i386 box back and forth is a pain. Eliminating one variable,
> by emulating it, is a good alternative, and why not on my fastest
> machine, my powerbook, though OSX is considerable slower than when
> OpenBSD is running. Frankly, I am so annoyed about the disk
> requirements of Windows and its apps that every few months I have
> to squeeze more room from my BSD paritions to give to Windows, which
> isn't trivial with screwing up both installs.  Emulating helps.
> 
> /end rant
> 
> Okan
> 
> > I've got to wonder why you would give yourself the headache of trying to
> > run two emulation environments. When you could run OpenBSD native on
> > another laptop.  Of course you could also run another free ppc os on your
> > iBook like I do.
> 
> -- 
> Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
> PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
> PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From truk  Fri Jun 18 15:01:08 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:01:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<40D334FE.5040800@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <001d01c45566$9d8f83f0$290110ac@truk>

From: "Pete Wright" <pete at nomadlogic.org>
> Kurt Miller wrote:
> >I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
> >a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
> >my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
> >would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
> >run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
> 
> i've used it a bit before it was bought by redmond.  it's pretty great, 
> altho i am not sure about non-ms support now.  ike and i were talking 
> about this a while back too, he seemed to have very good things to say 
> about it.

Did you try OpenBSD with it? Were there any issues? 

-Kurt



From truk  Fri Jun 18 15:05:00 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:05:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
Message-ID: <001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>

From: <marco at metm.org>
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 02:03:42PM -0400, Kurt Miller wrote:
> > I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
> > a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
> > my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
> > would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
> > run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
> > 
> > http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx?pid=virtualpc
> > 
> 
> KISS principle.

Yes I know I'm a glutton for punnishment. ;-) Being on the bleading
edge has its rewards though. I learn alot more and sometimes I can
contribute back too. 

> I've got to wonder why you would give yourself the headache of trying to
> run two emulation environments. When you could run OpenBSD native on
> another laptop.  Of course you could also run another free ppc os on your
> iBook like I do.

The idea is to not reboot from one OS to another all the time (or to
carry multiple laptops). My current laptop can boot into OpenBSD 
and WinK2, but also run the same OpenBSD partition in VMWare.
I rarely take the time to do the reboot to use OpenBSD. 

I'm thinking/hoping with the Mac and the Microsoft Virtual PC, I
could get the best of all worlds (OS X, Windows development, 
OpenBSD development). Best of all I would get to dump windows
for my day to day usage. ;)

-Kurt



From pete  Fri Jun 18 15:16:20 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:16:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <001d01c45566$9d8f83f0$290110ac@truk>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>	<40D334FE.5040800@nomadlogic.org>
	<001d01c45566$9d8f83f0$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <40D33F84.5090901@nomadlogic.org>

Kurt Miller wrote:

>From: "Pete Wright" <pete at nomadlogic.org>
>  
>
>>Kurt Miller wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
>>>a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
>>>my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
>>>would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
>>>run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
>>>      
>>>
>>i've used it a bit before it was bought by redmond.  it's pretty great, 
>>altho i am not sure about non-ms support now.  ike and i were talking 
>>about this a while back too, he seemed to have very good things to say 
>>about it.
>>    
>>
>
>Did you try OpenBSD with it? Were there any issues? 
>
>  
>
sorry i did not, but it seems that it behaves the same way as vmware.

-p



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Fri Jun 18 15:18:23 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:18:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
	<001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <4473F7EC-C15C-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 3:05 PM, Kurt Miller wrote:

> From: <marco at metm.org>
>> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 02:03:42PM -0400, Kurt Miller wrote:
>>> I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering
>>> a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on
>>> my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it
>>> would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to
>>> run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet?
>>>
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx? 
>>> pid=virtualpc
>
>> I've got to wonder why you would give yourself the headache of trying  
>> to
>> run two emulation environments. When you could run OpenBSD native on
>> another laptop.  Of course you could also run another free ppc os on  
>> your
>> iBook like I do.
>
> The idea is to not reboot from one OS to another all the time (or to
> carry multiple laptops). My current laptop can boot into OpenBSD
> and WinK2, but also run the same OpenBSD partition in VMWare.
> I rarely take the time to do the reboot to use OpenBSD.
>
> I'm thinking/hoping with the Mac and the Microsoft Virtual PC, I
> could get the best of all worlds (OS X, Windows development,
> OpenBSD development). Best of all I would get to dump windows
> for my day to day usage. ;)

If it doesn't work, you have other options:
	(a) use bochs (and suffer, horribly)
	(b) wait for the Darwin port of MacOnLinux, which should be coming out  
relatively soon, and run a PPC OpenBSD
	(c) use an old version of VirtualPC (works fine as long as you don't  
have a G5.. haven't tested OpenBSD, but have tested Linux and FreeDOS)

I've tried MacOnLinux (Debian PPC hosting OS X 10.2), and it did work  
but had some bugs (read: the virtualized OS X crashed like a windows  
box).

-bob
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From pete  Fri Jun 18 15:20:08 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:20:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
In-Reply-To: <001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
	<001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <40D34068.7040603@nomadlogic.org>

Kurt Miller wrote:

>
>I'm thinking/hoping with the Mac and the Microsoft Virtual PC, I
>could get the best of all worlds (OS X, Windows development, 
>OpenBSD development). Best of all I would get to dump windows
>for my day to day usage. ;)
>  
>

not to knock PowerBooks, but it may be worth looking at a ThinkPad.  
I've got a real nice X31 that seems to have *most* of the features one 
would expect from a PowerBook at roughly the same cost.  That is unless 
you are doing some stuff specific to PPC devel, or you really love OSX 
(which is a really valid point IMO).  This way you can run oBSD on it, 
then run Win in vmware, or use wine for specific apps even.  dunno just 
throwing ideas out.
hth
-p

>-Kurt
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From truk  Fri Jun 18 15:37:57 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:37:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
References: <OF03BB4E9C.6396D1CF-ON85256EB7.00666DEF-85256EB7.0067F2D0@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <006001c4556b$c1c87ce0$290110ac@truk>

From: Daniel Krook 
> I installed the Standalone edition of VirtualPC on my Mac
> a couple of months ago do some testing in Windows 2000, 
> and even though it was the latest from MS, I seem to recall
> that there was an option in there to install other OSes, 
> including an explicit mention of Linux.     
> 
> I did the W2K install via from my own CD and it offered the
> option of adding any number of other OSes later.  I believe
> the VM masquerades as an x86 Pentium II, so I would
> assume sticking a BSD on there is a possibility. 
>
> I'd give it a go myself but I'm in the process of moving and 
> my Mac is packed away, so I can't test it for you. 

I'm not in a rush (unless my Vaio craps out completely that
is). If you give it a go, let me/us know how it works out.

-Kurt



From truk  Fri Jun 18 16:00:53 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:00:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org> <001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
	<40D34068.7040603@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <007101c4556e$f66b7ee0$290110ac@truk>

From: "Pete Wright" <pete at nomadlogic.org>
> Kurt Miller wrote:
> 
> >
> >I'm thinking/hoping with the Mac and the Microsoft Virtual PC, I
> >could get the best of all worlds (OS X, Windows development, 
> >OpenBSD development). Best of all I would get to dump windows
> >for my day to day usage. ;)
> >  
> >
> 
> not to knock PowerBooks, but it may be worth looking at a ThinkPad.  
> I've got a real nice X31 that seems to have *most* of the features one 
> would expect from a PowerBook at roughly the same cost.  That is unless 
> you are doing some stuff specific to PPC devel, or you really love OSX 
> (which is a really valid point IMO).  This way you can run oBSD on it, 
> then run Win in vmware, or use wine for specific apps even.  dunno just 
> throwing ideas out.
> hth
> -p
> 

Thanks for the ideas and Bob too. I guess I'd like to go the OS X route
for my day to day instead of OpenBSD because I don't want to maintain
all my desktop apps myself. I'm supposing the learning curve would be 
much less if I don't have to figure out how to install, configure and maintain
all the basic apps myself. Plus if OpenBSD works well in VirtualPC for 
Mac, I can continue to work on the Java ports (i386 only) for OpenBSD. 

-Kurt



From jesse  Fri Jun 18 18:13:47 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:13:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Java ports on OpenBSD on yavm
In-Reply-To: <007101c4556e$f66b7ee0$290110ac@truk>
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org>
	<001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
	<40D34068.7040603@nomadlogic.org>
	<007101c4556e$f66b7ee0$290110ac@truk>
Message-ID: <C561C0AB-C174-11D8-97BA-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 4:00 PM, Kurt Miller wrote:

> Plus if OpenBSD works well in VirtualPC for
> Mac, I can continue to work on the Java ports (i386 only) for OpenBSD.

pretty cool

What's involved with that? I remember it taking ages to get the SDK 
installed on FreeBSD. Luckily it was all scripted, but it took maybe 5 
hours for the compilation/installation.

Jesse




From truk  Fri Jun 18 20:35:14 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:35:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Java ports on OpenBSD on yavm
References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk>
	<20040618184202.GS361@metm.org> <001e01c45567$27dffe40$290110ac@truk>
	<40D34068.7040603@nomadlogic.org> <007101c4556e$f66b7ee0$290110ac@truk>
	<C561C0AB-C174-11D8-97BA-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c45595$49989140$290110ac@truk>

From: "Jesse Callaway" <jesse at theholymountain.com>
> On Jun 18, 2004, at 4:00 PM, Kurt Miller wrote:
> > Plus if OpenBSD works well in VirtualPC for
> > Mac, I can continue to work on the Java ports (i386 only) for OpenBSD.
> 
> pretty cool
> 
> What's involved with that? I remember it taking ages to get the SDK 
> installed on FreeBSD. Luckily it was all scripted, but it took maybe 5 
> hours for the compilation/installation.

I only have sec to reply.... going away for a few days. I'll 
post some info on the OpenBSD java ports status when 
I get a free minute or the week after next.

-Kurt



From mspitze1  Fri Jun 18 21:42:54 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:42:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <FD07CE14-C13A-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
	<FD07CE14-C13A-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040618214254.042d964d@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:20:10 -0400
"G.Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 18, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> > Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> >
> >> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that 
> >> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
> >
> > brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm
> > free.  how is everyone else ;^)
> >
> > -p
> >
> 
> I'm in too. . .See everyone at the beach. . . <g>
> 
> g

I would love to go, but if it is a good beach day how
do you see the screen?

marc



From george  Fri Jun 18 21:45:01 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:45:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] July Installfest
In-Reply-To: <20040618214254.042d964d@bogomips.optonline.net>
References: <20040618021557.GL361@metm.org>
	<DF1B2E46-C135-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<1FD488C2-C136-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<B21D666C-C137-11D8-BF7E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
	<40D303D3.3050603@nomadlogic.org>
	<FD07CE14-C13A-11D8-9553-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<20040618214254.042d964d@bogomips.optonline.net>
Message-ID: <479FD537-C192-11D8-8195-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 18, 2004, at 9:42 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:20:10 -0400
> "G.Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>> Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oops, my  wife just reminded me that we are at the beach that
>>>> week...sorry about that, I'll have to catch the next one!
>>>
>>> brad, it's cool we can come with you to the beach.  i think i'm
>>> free.  how is everyone else ;^)
>>>
>>> -p
>>>
>>
>> I'm in too. . .See everyone at the beach. . . <g>
>>
>> g
>
> I would love to go, but if it is a good beach day how
> do you see the screen?
>
> marc

tent, tarp, whatever. . .

be creative.

no sun issues for me. . .small ibook, and i don't burn.

g




From antitoch  Sat Jun 19 15:43:39 2004
From: antitoch (William Lam)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:43:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
In-Reply-To: <ED2B31A8-C09D-11D8-8FEF-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <005901c45635$b90a4550$0d00a8c0@omoikane>

You can also try a metrocard to help you pry the iPod's metal back off.
Work the metrocard into the groove between the plastic and metal
sections to separate the latches. Long fingernails also help. Oh and
gobs of patience. 

As for the CF card, I've run NetBSD off a 512MB CF card on my IBM z50
for a few years now, no problems yet with it. The issue with flash
having only a limited number of writes, while valid is grossly
overstated IMO. The number of writes is something on the order of
100,000 _per block_ and most CF cards are capable to distributing writes
evenly. Apparently people don't give as much attention to the fact that
hard drives don't retain 100% of their storage capacity over their
lifetimes either. A bad block on a CF card for some reason gets much
more criticism than a bad block on magnetic media or a scratch on
optical media. 

Will

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Isaac Levy
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 4:36 PM
> To: NYC Bug List
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] CF card for soekris boxen
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Thought I'd put a shout out to the list, was just pricing CF 
> cards that  
> would work as HD for the soekris boards, and found these 
> inexpensive,  
> nice looking, 2.2gig cards for around $160 each- (The 4gb cards'  
> prices, forgeddaboutit' IMHO)
> 
http://www.pcmicrostore.com//PartDetail.aspx?q=p:10501216

found through pricewatch,
http://castle.pricewatch.com/search/search.idq?&CiBookMark=N-28be6a0 
-4b1a42 
-1&cr=COMPACT%20FLASH%20CF%20Card%202gb&qc=%22COMPACT%22%2A%20AND%20%22F

LASH%22%2A%20AND%20%22CF%22%2A%20AND%20%22CARD%22%2A%20AND%20%222GB%22%2

A&CiBookmarkSkipCount=15&r=15

--
Anyhow, thought I'd shout out to the list because these looked pretty  
darned inexpensive to me, but I don't know squat about CF cards, so any

comments/experiences are much appreciated...  Do these things look  
sane?  Are CF cards even the way to go when building network  
firewalls/routers (and space for even full size HD's is no big  
deal...)- Are they actually easier to work with than HD's?

August meeting should be fun answering some of this stuff... (In the
meantime I'm staring at my old iPod sitting next to a torx  
driver on the desk here...)

Rocket-
.ike

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/2004
 




From pete  Sat Jun 19 19:39:29 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:39:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tar question
Message-ID: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>

I have a wierd question about "tar".  how is the order of what it put 
into the archive dictated?  I assumed it was alphabetic, but I've been 
putting a file to tape and is not in alpha order.  It's not like it 
matters really but I was woundering if anyone has some insight to this.  
the man page does not shed any light into this.

cheers,
    -p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Sat Jun 19 19:03:02 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:03:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tar question
In-Reply-To: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <D0BDADEA-C244-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 19, 2004, at 7:39 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> I have a wierd question about "tar".  how is the order of what it put 
> into the archive dictated?  I assumed it was alphabetic, but I've been 
> putting a file to tape and is not in alpha order.  It's not like it 
> matters really but I was woundering if anyone has some insight to 
> this.  the man page does not shed any light into this.

Presumably in the order you specified on the command line.  In the case 
of wildcards, your shell decides how to expand the wildcards.  In the 
case of tarring up directories recursively, it's going to happen in 
whatever order the filesystem decides to spew it out (probably 
opendir/readdir, I haven't read the implementation, but it doesn't 
matter).

-bob
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From pete  Sat Jun 19 20:34:29 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:34:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tar question
In-Reply-To: <20040619230351.GA73880@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040619230351.GA73880@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <40D4DB95.6030601@nomadlogic.org>

Okan Demirmen wrote:

>On Sat 2004.06.19 at 18:39 -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>>I have a wierd question about "tar".  how is the order of what it put 
>>into the archive dictated?  I assumed it was alphabetic, but I've been 
>>putting a file to tape and is not in alpha order.  It's not like it 
>>matters really but I was woundering if anyone has some insight to this.  
>>the man page does not shed any light into this.
>>    
>>
>
>should be order of addition to archive file.
>
>okan
>
>  
>

understood, but I just tar'd a dir with about 300-400 dirs/files in it.  
so if i tar ala:

tar cvf /dev/nsa0 /path/to/foo/

I noticed that the things were not in alpha order.  I double checked the 
output and it didn't look like any pattern, unless it was by size maybe, 
but i don't think that was the case either.  i also would have thought 
that it would be in the same pattern as when you do a "ls" (i.e. 
letters/case/alpha etc).  that wasn't the case either...wierd

-p



>>cheers,
>>   -p
>>
>>-- 
>>~~~oO00Oo~~~
>>Pete Wright
>>pete at nomadlogic.org
>>www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>talk mailing list
>>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>    
>>
>
>  
>



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Sat Jun 19 19:48:40 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:48:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tar question
In-Reply-To: <40D4DB95.6030601@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040619230351.GA73880@yinaska.pair.com>
	<40D4DB95.6030601@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <30E800A6-C24B-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 19, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Okan Demirmen wrote:
>
>> On Sat 2004.06.19 at 18:39 -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>> I have a wierd question about "tar".  how is the order of what it 
>>> put into the archive dictated?  I assumed it was alphabetic, but 
>>> I've been putting a file to tape and is not in alpha order.  It's 
>>> not like it matters really but I was woundering if anyone has some 
>>> insight to this.  the man page does not shed any light into this.
>>
>> should be order of addition to archive file.
>
> understood, but I just tar'd a dir with about 300-400 dirs/files in 
> it.  so if i tar ala:
>
> tar cvf /dev/nsa0 /path/to/foo/
>
> I noticed that the things were not in alpha order.  I double checked 
> the output and it didn't look like any pattern, unless it was by size 
> maybe, but i don't think that was the case either.  i also would have 
> thought that it would be in the same pattern as when you do a "ls" 
> (i.e. letters/case/alpha etc).  that wasn't the case either...wierd

It's not really weird.  In order to have any sorting you would need to 
gather the list of every file that goes in the tar first and sort it.  
Since tar is meant for tape, it doesn't have a TOC at the beginning 
(like zip does), so it has no reason to know every single file it's 
going to archive beforehand.  As I said before, it's HIGHLY likely that 
it goes in the same order as you pass via args and otherwise arbitrary 
filesystem order.  On top of that, the man page also doesn't specify 
how it traverses directories, which could happen in several different 
ways depending on the implementation.

-bob
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From sunny-ml  Sat Jun 19 19:59:37 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:59:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tar question
In-Reply-To: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200406191959.38656.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Saturday 19 June 2004 07:39 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
> I have a wierd question about "tar".  how is the order of what it put
> into the archive dictated?  I assumed it was alphabetic, but I've been
> putting a file to tape and is not in alpha order.  It's not like it
> matters really but I was woundering if anyone has some insight to this.
> the man page does not shed any light into this.

IIRC this is done by directory order, which in turn is presented to tar by 
the actual file system itself

a test:  (yes yes, on linux, whatever):

in each dir I have done:
for i in 5 1 4 2 3 ; do touch $i ; done

now I tar:

[sunny at atticus tmp]# tar cvf tar.jfs loop.jfs/
loop.jfs/
loop.jfs/1
loop.jfs/2
loop.jfs/3
loop.jfs/4
loop.jfs/5

[sunny at atticus tmp]# tar cvf tar.ext loop.ext3
loop.ext3/
loop.ext3/5
loop.ext3/1
loop.ext3/4
loop.ext3/2
loop.ext3/3

[sunny at atticus tmp]# tar cvf tar.xfs loop.xfs/
loop.xfs/
loop.xfs/1
loop.xfs/2
loop.xfs/3
loop.xfs/4
loop.xfs/5

notice how XFS and JFS do it by name order, but Ext3 does it by creation 
order.

Sunny Dubey



From pete  Sat Jun 19 21:10:36 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:10:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tar question
In-Reply-To: <200406191959.38656.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <40D4CEB1.3020508@nomadlogic.org>
	<200406191959.38656.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <40D4E40C.5000706@nomadlogic.org>

Sunny Dubey wrote:

>On Saturday 19 June 2004 07:39 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>>I have a wierd question about "tar".  how is the order of what it put
>>into the archive dictated?  I assumed it was alphabetic, but I've been
>>putting a file to tape and is not in alpha order.  It's not like it
>>matters really but I was woundering if anyone has some insight to this.
>>the man page does not shed any light into this.
>>    
>>
>
>IIRC this is done by directory order, which in turn is presented to tar by 
>the actual file system itself
>
>a test:  (yes yes, on linux, whatever):
>
>in each dir I have done:
>for i in 5 1 4 2 3 ; do touch $i ; done
>
>now I tar:
>
>[sunny at atticus tmp]# tar cvf tar.jfs loop.jfs/
>loop.jfs/
>loop.jfs/1
>loop.jfs/2
>loop.jfs/3
>loop.jfs/4
>loop.jfs/5
>
>[sunny at atticus tmp]# tar cvf tar.ext loop.ext3
>loop.ext3/
>loop.ext3/5
>loop.ext3/1
>loop.ext3/4
>loop.ext3/2
>loop.ext3/3
>
>[sunny at atticus tmp]# tar cvf tar.xfs loop.xfs/
>loop.xfs/
>loop.xfs/1
>loop.xfs/2
>loop.xfs/3
>loop.xfs/4
>loop.xfs/5
>
>notice how XFS and JFS do it by name order, but Ext3 does it by creation 
>  
>
woah that's really interesting, this may explain alot (we use XFS on 
most of our large NAS's).  The slice in question is a ext3 NFS 
share...the archiving machine is running fbsd.  so i bet it's done by 
atime or ctime then, which makes alot of sense for an archiving program.

-p




-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Sun Jun 20 00:54:35 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:54:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
Message-ID: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

I'm attending WWDC later this month (28th-2nd), and I know a lot of you 
own or maintain Apple gear, so I was wondering if there are any 
pressing questions or issues that you all have that I can take with me 
to San Fran.  I'm quasi-officially representing the MacPython community 
on my ticket, but I'm sure I could be of some service to the local BSD 
community as well.

As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about Apple's 
legal/political stance do not apply.  Also, it should be obvious that 
it's hardly even worth asking questions about Apple's future plans 
(beyond the Tiger release, anyway).  You've got a full week to come up 
with stuff, so take your time.  If it's about a technical issue please 
do a little research first (Google is your friend?) to make sure that 
we're not asking for answers already available.

Additionally, since I am and will be under NDA, I may not be able to 
completely answer all inquiries immediately upon my return as some of 
the information may be dependent on information Apple has not yet made 
public which I will not legally be allowed to disclose.   However, I 
assure you that questions asked and comments raised are better than 
those never heard :)

-bob
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From pete  Sun Jun 20 12:20:42 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:20:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <C6FC1C0D-C2D5-11D8-8C2D-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 20, 2004, at 12:54 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
> As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
> speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about Apple's 
> legal/political stance do not apply.

i'd figure a developers conference would be the place to ask questions 
about legal/political issues, especially if they are trying to attract 
developers to their platform.  that is unless they have another conf. 
just for legal issues ;)


-p




From bob  Sun Jun 20 15:15:16 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:15:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <C6FC1C0D-C2D5-11D8-8C2D-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<C6FC1C0D-C2D5-11D8-8C2D-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <29CAD840-C2EE-11D8-99AC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 20, 2004, at 12:20 PM, pete wright wrote:

>
> On Jun 20, 2004, at 12:54 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>> As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
>> speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about Apple's 
>> legal/political stance do not apply.
>
> i'd figure a developers conference would be the place to ask questions 
> about legal/political issues, especially if they are trying to attract 
> developers to their platform.  that is unless they have another conf. 
> just for legal issues ;)

Apple engineers aren't lawyers.

-bob
  
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From mikel.king  Mon Jun 21 11:06:37 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:06:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40D6F97D.1040904@ocsny.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

> I'm attending WWDC later this month (28th-2nd), and I know a lot of 
> you own or maintain Apple gear, so I was wondering if there are any 
> pressing questions or issues that you all have that I can take with me 
> to San Fran.  I'm quasi-officially representing the MacPython 
> community on my ticket, but I'm sure I could be of some service to the 
> local BSD community as well.
>
> As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
> speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about Apple's 
> legal/political stance do not apply.  Also, it should be obvious that 
> it's hardly even worth asking questions about Apple's future plans 
> (beyond the Tiger release, anyway).  You've got a full week to come up 
> with stuff, so take your time.  If it's about a technical issue please 
> do a little research first (Google is your friend?) to make sure that 
> we're not asking for answers already available.
>
> Additionally, since I am and will be under NDA, I may not be able to 
> completely answer all inquiries immediately upon my return as some of 
> the information may be dependent on information Apple has not yet made 
> public which I will not legally be allowed to disclose.   However, I 
> assure you that questions asked and comments raised are better than 
> those never heard :)
>
> -bo
> b
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>
dhcp...For some reason I have had a lot of trouble with dhcp on 10.2 and 
10.3...workstations intermittently pickup and drop their settings. Most 
of my clients are mixed pc and mac, and it is always the macs giving 
trouble with the dhcp services. I gotten into the habit of using fixed 
ip on the macs cause they just refuse to cooperate.



From bob  Mon Jun 21 11:12:00 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:12:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <40D6F97D.1040904@ocsny.com>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40D6F97D.1040904@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <580FFD6A-C395-11D8-99AC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 21, 2004, at 11:06 AM, mikel king wrote:

> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> I'm attending WWDC later this month (28th-2nd), and I know a lot of 
>> you own or maintain Apple gear, so I was wondering if there are any 
>> pressing questions or issues that you all have that I can take with 
>> me to San Fran.  I'm quasi-officially representing the MacPython 
>> community on my ticket, but I'm sure I could be of some service to 
>> the local BSD community as well.
>>
>> As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
>> speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about Apple's 
>> legal/political stance do not apply.  Also, it should be obvious that 
>> it's hardly even worth asking questions about Apple's future plans 
>> (beyond the Tiger release, anyway).  You've got a full week to come 
>> up with stuff, so take your time.  If it's about a technical issue 
>> please do a little research first (Google is your friend?) to make 
>> sure that we're not asking for answers already available.
>>
>> Additionally, since I am and will be under NDA, I may not be able to 
>> completely answer all inquiries immediately upon my return as some of 
>> the information may be dependent on information Apple has not yet 
>> made public which I will not legally be allowed to disclose.   
>> However, I assure you that questions asked and comments raised are 
>> better than those never heard :)
>>
> dhcp...For some reason I have had a lot of trouble with dhcp on 10.2 
> and 10.3...workstations intermittently pickup and drop their settings. 
> Most of my clients are mixed pc and mac, and it is always the macs 
> giving trouble with the dhcp services. I gotten into the habit of 
> using fixed ip on the macs cause they just refuse to cooperate.

This is probably because whichever dhcp client OS X uses can cause some 
DHCP daemons to act retarded.  As far as I know, it's actually a bug in 
your DHCP server.  I know the problem fixes itself whenever I restart 
dhcpd.

-bob
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From kit  Mon Jun 21 11:35:40 2004
From: kit (Kit Halsted)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:35:40 -0400
Subject: DHCP (Was Re: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG)
In-Reply-To: <580FFD6A-C395-11D8-99AC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40D6F97D.1040904@ocsny.com>
	<580FFD6A-C395-11D8-99AC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <p06002041bcfcaf579287@[10.0.1.67]>

At 11:12 AM -0400 6/21/04, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>On Jun 21, 2004, at 11:06 AM, mikel king wrote:
<...>
>>dhcp...For some reason I have had a lot of trouble with dhcp on 
>>10.2 and 10.3...workstations intermittently pickup and drop their 
>>settings. Most of my clients are mixed pc and mac, and it is always 
>>the macs giving trouble with the dhcp services. I gotten into the 
>>habit of using fixed ip on the macs cause they just refuse to 
>>cooperate.
>
>This is probably because whichever dhcp client OS X uses can cause 
>some DHCP daemons to act retarded.  As far as I know, it's actually 
>a bug in your DHCP server.  I know the problem fixes itself whenever 
>I restart dhcpd.

I haven't run across DHCP problems under OS X yet, but I definitely 
remember when DHCP broke with the upgrade to Mac OS 8.(5? 6?). Back 
then, at least, it was not a client bug. It was also not a server 
bug. It was a ^%*^$*# RFC bug. Both the client & the server were 
perfectly standards-compliant, but they didn't actually work 
together. Too many "mays" where there should've been "musts" or 
something...

-Kit
-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  -Benjamin Franklin

"...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
(...if you would have peace, be prepared for war)  -Flavius Vegetius Renatus



From mikel.king  Mon Jun 21 12:06:06 2004
From: mikel.king (mikel king)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:06:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <580FFD6A-C395-11D8-99AC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40D6F97D.1040904@ocsny.com>
	<580FFD6A-C395-11D8-99AC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40D7076E.1000700@ocsny.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 21, 2004, at 11:06 AM, mikel king wrote:
>
>> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>> I'm attending WWDC later this month (28th-2nd), and I know a lot of 
>>> you own or maintain Apple gear, so I was wondering if there are any 
>>> pressing questions or issues that you all have that I can take with 
>>> me to San Fran.  I'm quasi-officially representing the MacPython 
>>> community on my ticket, but I'm sure I could be of some service to 
>>> the local BSD community as well.
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
>>> speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about 
>>> Apple's legal/political stance do not apply.  Also, it should be 
>>> obvious that it's hardly even worth asking questions about Apple's 
>>> future plans (beyond the Tiger release, anyway).  You've got a full 
>>> week to come up with stuff, so take your time.  If it's about a 
>>> technical issue please do a little research first (Google is your 
>>> friend?) to make sure that we're not asking for answers already 
>>> available.
>>>
>>> Additionally, since I am and will be under NDA, I may not be able to 
>>> completely answer all inquiries immediately upon my return as some 
>>> of the information may be dependent on information Apple has not yet 
>>> made public which I will not legally be allowed to disclose.   
>>> However, I assure you that questions asked and comments raised are 
>>> better than those never heard :)
>>>
>> dhcp...For some reason I have had a lot of trouble with dhcp on 10.2 
>> and 10.3...workstations intermittently pickup and drop their 
>> settings. Most of my clients are mixed pc and mac, and it is always 
>> the macs giving trouble with the dhcp services. I gotten into the 
>> habit of using fixed ip on the macs cause they just refuse to cooperate.
>
>
> This is probably because whichever dhcp client OS X uses can cause 
> some DHCP daemons to act retarded.  As far as I know, it's actually a 
> bug in your DHCP server.  I know the problem fixes itself whenever I 
> restart dhcpd.
>
> -bo
> b

I've used them with every possible dhcpd server I can think of at 
various cliets and they song is always the same. The mac are just too 
finiky when it comes to dhcp.



From pete  Mon Jun 21 15:45:05 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:45:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris
Message-ID: <40D73AC1.30803@nomadlogic.org>

Hey All,
    Just sending a quick note regarding the soekris boxen.  I am not 
going to be able to place to order today (recovering from a RAID 
crash).  I will hopefully be able to get the order placed tommorow tho.  
On that note, I still have not gotten any emails regarding who wants 
one.  Please send me an email with a subject line like:
I want a Soekris box

Sorry if you did email me, I may have forgotten.  I will ask sales if we 
can each individually pay them via paypal and still have that count as 
one order.  As I said things are crazy for me right now, but hopefully 
tommorow I'll have everything together.

Cheers.
    Pete Wright

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Mon Jun 21 16:14:03 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:14:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: soekris box
In-Reply-To: <40D72E1F.5000104@eus-llc.net>
References: <40D73AC1.30803@nomadlogic.org> <40D72E1F.5000104@eus-llc.net>
Message-ID: <40D7418B.9060306@nomadlogic.org>

Jeronimo Romero wrote:

> Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> Hey All,
>>    Just sending a quick note regarding the soekris boxen.  I am not 
>> going to be able to place to order today (recovering from a RAID 
>> crash).  I will hopefully be able to get the order placed tommorow 
>> tho.  On that note, I still have not gotten any emails regarding who 
>> wants one.  Please send me an email with a subject line like:
>> I want a Soekris box
>>
>> Sorry if you did email me, I may have forgotten.  I will ask sales if 
>> we can each individually pay them via paypal and still have that 
>> count as one order.  As I said things are crazy for me right now, but 
>> hopefully tommorow I'll have everything together.
>>
>> Cheers.
>>    Pete Wright
>
>
>
> I think i want one. how much would the combo be with board, power 
> supply and chassis???


(sorry to post this to list)

jeronimo,

here are the specs you asked about:

http://www.soekris.com/

   The net4801 looks quite appealing to me, what do you all think?  If 
we can get 5 or more people to purchase one of the boxes then they will 
only cost $246 each.  That's the board with a case and power supply.  
Here is a quick description:

net4801-50: 266 Mhz CPU, 128 Mbyte SDRAM, 3 Ethernet, 2 serial, USB 
connector, CF socket, 44 pins IDE connector, 1 Mini-PCI socket, 3.3V PCI 
connector.




i think you are having a problem with your mailserver.  got this when i 
responded to you:

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at squid1.adsutton.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

<jromero at eus-llc.net>:





This address no longer accepts mail.




-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From lists  Mon Jun 21 16:14:28 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:14:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: June 2004 OPEN SOURCE INSIDER
Message-ID: <20040621161428.5c3728d3@delinux.abwatley.com>

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:56:34 -0400
Subject: June 2004 OPEN SOURCE INSIDER from 
the "Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall PTR User Group Program"


Hello User Group Leader/Book Review Coordinator,

While many people have vacation, vacation, vacation on the mind,
Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall PTR is hard at work, soon to publish some
Open Source-related summer blockbusters in the July, August and
September timeframe. And because your group is a member of the
Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall PTR User Group program, you are entitled to
receive a review copy of each new book to share with your fellow members
soon after they publish! 
USENIX, USENIX, USENIX!!
Before you read on for new book info, are any of your members attending
the USENIX conference next week in Boston?  If yes, please let me know. 
It would be great to connect with some members of your group, not to
mention, AW/PH PTR has some special events planned, including an author
signing on Wed. 30th and a special Bird-of-a-Feather session involving
Kirk McKusick of BSD fame on Tues. 29th.
 
CHECK OUT WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIKE IN JULY/AUGUST/SEPTEMBER ...

 

IT BOOKS:

(LATE JULY) "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and Intellectual 
Property Law" authored by Larry Rosen, general counsel for the Open
Source Initiative. Rosen presents a plain-English guide to open source
law for developers, managers, users, and lawyers. To learn more, linkto:
http://www.phptr.com/title/0131487876
<http://www.phptr.com/title/0131487876>  

 

(EARLY AUGUST) "Succeeding with Open Source" authored by Bernard Golden,
CEO of Navica. This book is for IT managers who need to evaluate,
select, and use open-source software. The author begins with the
fundamentals of open-source solutions and how they differ from
commercial software. To learn

more, linkto:  <http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0321268539>
http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0321268539

 

TECHNICAL BOOKS:

(LATE JULY) "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating 
System" co-authored by Kirk McKusick, twice president of the board of
the Usenix Association, and George V. Neville-Neil. In this update to
The Design

and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System (Addison-Wesley, 
1996), McKusick and Neville-Neil deliver updated technical information
on the 
internal structure of BSD 5.2.  To learn more, linkto: 
http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201702452
<http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0201702452>    

 

(EARLY AUGUST) "A Practical Guide to Red Hat? Linux?: Fedora(tm) Core
and Red Hat Enterprise Linux, 2/e" authored by Mark Sobell. The guide to
installing, configuring and working with Red Hat Linux. It includes a
full version 
of the latest Fedora release - Core 2, which is the first Fedora release
to contain the new 2.6 Linux Kernel. To learn more, linkto: 
http://www.phptr.com/title/0131470248
<http://www.phptr.com/title/0131470248> 

 

(EARLY AUGUST)  "Open Source Security Tools: A Practical Guide to
Security Applications" authored by Tony Howlett,  president of Network
Security Services. (part of the Bruce Perens' Open Source Series, 
www.phptr.com/perens <http://www.phptr.com/perens> ) This book reviews
the large assortment of free and 
low-cost open source software security solutions to provide the best
picks for all major areas of information security. To learn more,
linkto: http://www.phptr.com/title/0321194438
<http://www.phptr.com/title/0321194438> 

 

(EARLY SEPTEMBER) "PHP 5 Power Programming" co-authored by Andi 
Gutmans, Stig Bakken and Derick Rethans. (part of the Bruce Perens' Open
Source Series, www.phptr.com/perens <http://www.phptr.com/perens> ) 
STAY TUNED FOR MORE INFO......To 
see a sneak preview of the cover, linkto: 
http://www.phptr.com/title/013147149X
<http://www.phptr.com/title/013147149X> 

 

(MID-SEPTEMBER)  "Moving to the Linux Business Desktop" authored by 
Marcel Gagne, whose popular consumer-level book Moving to Linux: Kiss
the Blue Screen of Death Goodbye!, published in August, 2003.  STAY
TUNED FOR MORE INFO......To see a sneak preview of the cover, linkto: 
http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0131421921
<http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0131421921> 

 

(MID-SEPTEMBER)  "UNIX? Shells by Example, 4/e" authored by Ellie
Quigley.  STAY TUNED FOR MORE INFO...... To see a sneak preview of the
cover/table of contents, linkto: 
<http://www.phptr.com/title/013147572X>
http://www.phptr.com/title/013147572X


************************* 
Heather Fox, Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall PTR  Publicist & Liaison for 
"Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall PTR User Group Program" 
www.awprofessional.com <http://www.awprofessional.com> ; www.phptr.com
<http://www.phptr.com>  
Geographic Location: 
c/o Pearson Education, 1 Lake St., #3K17, Upper Saddle River, NJ  07458





-- 
---
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From SKiefer  Mon Jun 21 16:30:42 2004
From: SKiefer (SKiefer at bigben-interactive.de)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:30:42 +0200
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re:  talk Digest, Vol 7, Issue 36
Message-ID: <20381771730194@mail.bigben-interactive.de>

Vielen Dank f?r Ihre Nachricht!

Ich bin am Montag, den 28.06.2004 wieder im Haus.
In dringenden F?llen wenden Sie sich bitte an unsere Zentrale in Bergheim: 02271-498590
ch werde Ihnen schnellstm?glich antworten, sobald ich wieder im Haus bin.

Thank you for your mail.

I am out of the office until monday, june 28th 2004.In urgent cases please contact +49(0)2271-498590

I will get back to you as soon I am back in the office.

Viele Gr??e, best regards,

Stefan Kiefer




From george  Mon Jun 21 16:40:04 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:40:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re:  talk Digest, Vol 7, Issue 36
In-Reply-To: <20381771730194@mail.bigben-interactive.de>
References: <20381771730194@mail.bigben-interactive.de>
Message-ID: <2CB7F523-C3C3-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 21, 2004, at 4:30 PM, SKiefer at bigben-interactive.de wrote:

> Vielen Dank f?r Ihre Nachricht!
>
> Ich bin am Montag, den 28.06.2004 wieder im Haus.
> In dringenden F?llen wenden Sie sich bitte an unsere Zentrale in 
> Bergheim: 02271-498590
> ch werde Ihnen schnellstm?glich antworten, sobald ich wieder im Haus 
> bin.
>
> Thank you for your mail.
>
> I am out of the office until monday, june 28th 2004.In urgent cases 
> please contact +49(0)2271-498590
>
> I will get back to you as soon I am back in the office.
>
> Viele Gr??e, best regards,
>
> Stefan Kiefer
>
oh no.  . .not my buddy Stefan. . .

time to get back to the netiquette document. . .

g




From george  Mon Jun 21 21:35:42 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:35:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
Message-ID: <79432458-C3EC-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

and apache responds to OpenBSD. . .

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Lars Eilebrecht <lars at apache.org>
> Date: June 21, 2004 8:24:58 PM EDT
> To: misc at openbsd.org
> Subject: Re: no more apache updates
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> According to Henning Brauer:
>
>> let me add one more thing.
>>
>> it is of course possible to install an apache 1.3.31 or future ones
>> from source on OpenBSD.
>>
>> however, doing so is one of the dumbest things you can do.
>>
>> there is a number of serious security problems in apache that we have
>> fixed, and that have been offered them back, and they refused.
>>
>> selfmade apache upgrade = security downgrade, ok?
>
> The Apache HTTP server security team is not aware of any pending
> patches/fixes for a security vulnerability (or other bug) in Apache
> proposed by the OpenBSD team.
>
> No patch or information about a bug has been submitted to the
> Apache security or development mailing list, thus, we don't know
> of any patch we could have "refused".
>
> In Apache 1.3.30 we added a fix to mod_access:
>
>   *) SECURITY: CAN-2003-0993 (cve.mitre.org)
>      Fix parsing of Allow/Deny rules using IP addresses without a
>      netmask; issue is only known to affect big-endian 64-bit
>      platforms; on affected platforms such rules would never produce
>      matches.  PR 23850.  [Henning Brauer <henning openbsd.org>]
>
>
> We recently have been informed by an individual Apache developer, that
> he received a patch privately from Henning Brauer that replaces certain
> string functions with functions like strlcpy() and snprintf(). Most of 
> the
> changes are very BSD specific and not portable, which was also pointed
> out by Henning himself. Nothing was pointed out as a bug or security 
> fix
> in Henning's email.
>
> We really don't have any information about "a number of serious 
> security
> problems in Apache". Please accept our apologies should we have missed 
> a
> particular email or report from someone from the OpenBSD team, but
> the most recent report submitted to our security list dates
> back to Febrary 2003.
>
> As you may know, information about Apache vulnerabilities, with or
> without patches, should be submitted to security at apache.org. Other 
> fixes
> or improvements to Apache httpd may be submitted to the PR database
> (http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/) or the developer's mailing list.
>
> We always appreciate it, if people provide us with patches, but yes,
> sometimes we may be conservative in what we accept ... just like the
> OpenBSD team is conservative in what they accept for OpenBSD. :)
>
>
> Regards...
> - --
> Lars Eilebrecht
> lars at apache.org
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> kvfVCqA=
> =moLa
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>




From okan  Mon Jun 21 21:39:38 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:39:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <79432458-C3EC-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <79432458-C3EC-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040622013938.GB2401@yinaska.pair.com>

On Mon 2004.06.21 at 21:35 -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> and apache responds to OpenBSD. . .

well, its hard to say exactly what was sent to apache, but if you
watch source-changes@, a whole crap load of fixes has gone into the
openbsd tree.

okan

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> >From: Lars Eilebrecht <lars at apache.org>
> >Date: June 21, 2004 8:24:58 PM EDT
> >To: misc at openbsd.org
> >Subject: Re: no more apache updates
> >
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >According to Henning Brauer:
> >
> >>let me add one more thing.
> >>
> >>it is of course possible to install an apache 1.3.31 or future ones
> >>from source on OpenBSD.
> >>
> >>however, doing so is one of the dumbest things you can do.
> >>
> >>there is a number of serious security problems in apache that we have
> >>fixed, and that have been offered them back, and they refused.
> >>
> >>selfmade apache upgrade = security downgrade, ok?
> >
> >The Apache HTTP server security team is not aware of any pending
> >patches/fixes for a security vulnerability (or other bug) in Apache
> >proposed by the OpenBSD team.
> >
> >No patch or information about a bug has been submitted to the
> >Apache security or development mailing list, thus, we don't know
> >of any patch we could have "refused".
> >
> >In Apache 1.3.30 we added a fix to mod_access:
> >
> >  *) SECURITY: CAN-2003-0993 (cve.mitre.org)
> >     Fix parsing of Allow/Deny rules using IP addresses without a
> >     netmask; issue is only known to affect big-endian 64-bit
> >     platforms; on affected platforms such rules would never produce
> >     matches.  PR 23850.  [Henning Brauer <henning openbsd.org>]
> >
> >
> >We recently have been informed by an individual Apache developer, that
> >he received a patch privately from Henning Brauer that replaces certain
> >string functions with functions like strlcpy() and snprintf(). Most of 
> >the
> >changes are very BSD specific and not portable, which was also pointed
> >out by Henning himself. Nothing was pointed out as a bug or security 
> >fix
> >in Henning's email.
> >
> >We really don't have any information about "a number of serious 
> >security
> >problems in Apache". Please accept our apologies should we have missed 
> >a
> >particular email or report from someone from the OpenBSD team, but
> >the most recent report submitted to our security list dates
> >back to Febrary 2003.
> >
> >As you may know, information about Apache vulnerabilities, with or
> >without patches, should be submitted to security at apache.org. Other 
> >fixes
> >or improvements to Apache httpd may be submitted to the PR database
> >(http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/) or the developer's mailing list.
> >
> >We always appreciate it, if people provide us with patches, but yes,
> >sometimes we may be conservative in what we accept ... just like the
> >OpenBSD team is conservative in what they accept for OpenBSD. :)
> >
> >
> >Regards...
> >- --
> >Lars Eilebrecht
> >lars at apache.org
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> >iQCSAwUBQNd8Wj6Pt/L4g0HZAQGXewPmMdnc35eM2ZuwJI43w3Em0Ea9Xvq3Idrb
> >DZnkkE2EGL8wHgy+2j1GwQb8/RPtleA3I9WDNqFgkWrLbj2CxtBnaDgS/MPvpMoh
> >06PTEnDOH7M0UlzROMfDEjOREmx83/8c1RRLJxbPTxCSvjWCVGpMWdsk/8fE1QGo
> >kvfVCqA=
> >=moLa
> >-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From george  Tue Jun 22 00:18:42 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:18:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
Message-ID: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

and the response. . . .sorry if the language insults anyone. . .

<g>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Henning Brauer <lists-openbsd at bsws.de>
> Date: June 21, 2004 9:56:45 PM EDT
> To: lars at apache.org
> Cc: misc at openbsd.org
> Subject: Re: no more apache updates
>
> * Lars Eilebrecht <lars at apache.org> [2004-06-21 18:30]:
>> The Apache HTTP server security team is not aware of any pending
>> patches/fixes for a security vulnerability (or other bug) in Apache
>> proposed by the OpenBSD team.
>
> Oh gimme a break.
> This has all been mailed to you guys.
> One of the keywords is ETag, another one is chroot.
> And we have quite a few fixes in mod_ssl.
> There's more. I am too lazy too look it all up again. The diff between
> httpd in our tree and the same versioned apache from you guys was about
> 4000 lines last time I checked.
>
> Not that it matters any more.
>
>> We really don't have any information about "a number of serious 
>> security
>> problems in Apache". Please accept our apologies should we have 
>> missed a
>> particular email or report from someone from the OpenBSD team, but
>> the most recent report submitted to our security list dates
>> back to Febrary 2003.
>
> look, when you mail countless security fixes and nobopdy cares because
> it cannot be ported to Netware, do you continue wasting your time doing
> so?
>
> Not that it matters any more.
>
> Thank you for fucking up the license and thus stealing a fair share of
> my hacking time that I have to waste on fixing your bugs now without
> using your code.
>




From trish  Tue Jun 22 03:54:43 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:54:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:

> and the response. . . .sorry if the language insults anyone. . .
>
> <g>
>
>
>

Honestly, and I've thought this since meeting many of them....

the OpenBSD folks would catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Theo attracts people like him, rude, obnoxious and always correct.

I'm sure there are some issues with apache, but I'd love to see the
original emails, I'm sure they're not too friendly.

- -Trish


- -- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16
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From dan  Tue Jun 22 07:00:22 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:00:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40D7D906.12643.943A7DE7@localhost>

On 22 Jun 2004 at 3:54, Trish Lynch wrote:

> Honestly, and I've thought this since meeting many of them....
> 
> the OpenBSD folks would catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Same thing as : It's now what you say, it's how you say it.

> Theo attracts people like him, rude, obnoxious and always correct.

Hmmm, that reminds me of how adults can affect children by 
reinforcing behaviour.  

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/




From lists  Tue Jun 22 07:16:19 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:16:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40D7D906.12643.943A7DE7@localhost>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40D7D906.12643.943A7DE7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040622071619.197f1a96@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:00:22 -0400
"Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, that reminds me of how adults can affect children by 
> reinforcing behaviour.  
> 

To wit: I love the food being served, is it my place to tell the
chef how to raise his children or treat his staff?  As a consumer, most
certainly not.  Now, it is a tragedy* that the chef does not act in the
manner of a diplomat?  Perhaps, but the kitchen would probably not run
as well.



*tragedy
A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin
or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw,
moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances.


-- 
---



From trish  Tue Jun 22 07:55:26 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:55:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <20040622071619.197f1a96@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40D7D906.12643.943A7DE7@localhost>
	<20040622071619.197f1a96@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20040622074718.E42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:00:22 -0400
> "Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, that reminds me of how adults can affect children by
> > reinforcing behaviour.
> >
>
> To wit: I love the food being served, is it my place to tell the
> chef how to raise his children or treat his staff?  As a consumer, most
> certainly not.  Now, it is a tragedy* that the chef does not act in the
> manner of a diplomat?  Perhaps, but the kitchen would probably not run
> as well.
>
>

Actually one should more compare it to the manager, and the waiters are
rude and obnoxious?

Even if the food is wonderful, I will not eat at a place such as this when
there are places both the food and service are wonderful.

The chef can be obnoxious in these situation, and the consumer never
knows. Theo should never be a public face or anyone else obnoxious. I
actually like some of the OpenBSD folks, two that come to mind are Bob
Beck and Mickey Shalayeff.... (Mickey was a "member" of the last BSD
user's group in NYC).... but for Theo as a spokesperson, it drives people
who value courtesy away.

- -Trish




- -- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From dan  Tue Jun 22 10:36:56 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:36:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan 2005 brochure is ready
Message-ID: <40D80BC8.28179.9500C664@localhost>

The first version of the BSDCan 2005 brochure is out.  There's not 
much in content for 2005 (what?  you haven't put in your proposal for 
a talk yet?)

Before I distribute it at Usenix, do you see any errors? 

http://www.bsdcan.org/2005/advocacy/bsdcan-brochure.pdf

cheers
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/




From lists  Tue Jun 22 11:48:57 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:48:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Osborne's Latest & Greatest June/July
Message-ID: <20040622114857.4cf74eae@delinux.abwatley.com>

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:30:41 -0500
Subject: Osborne's Latest & Greatest June/July


McGRAW-HILL/OSBORNE PRESENTS
NEW TITLES FOR JUNE/JULY 2004

Below you will find a list of select new titles to be released in June and July.  For a complete listing of our books, please visit our Website at http://www.osborne.com. 


Consumer Technology:

How to Do Everything with Your Dell DJ by Dave Johnson & Rick Broida
ISBN: 0-07-225550-1; 304 pages; $24.99
The authors share tips, little known tricks, and expert advice on digital music management and explain how to download and rip music, organize tracks, play music in your car, and use the device for live-DJ parties.  They show how to build a music library from Internet downloads, organize tracks by artist, genre, or specialized play lists, and back up old LPs, cassettes, and other formats as digital files then copy them over to the Dell DJ. 

Mac OS X Panther QuickSteps by Guy Hart-Davis
ISBN: 0-07-225505-6; 240 pages; $16.99
This book covers everything the beginning to intermediate user needs to know about Mac OS X.  It focuses on just the steps users need to know to immediately accomplish their goals.  More than 100 essential tasks are explained! 

Personal Computing Demystified by Larry Long
ISBN: 0-07-225514-5; 300 pages; $19.95
This easy-to-understand, step-by-step guide walks its readers through each task they need to complete without using unnecessary technical language.  Larry Long explains how to network multiple PCs, store photos, download music, and much more.

Maya 6: The Complete Reference by Tom Meade & Shinsaku Arima
ISBN: 0-07-222718-4; 672 pages; $59.99
The expert authors offer detailed coverage of Maya 6 including advanced texturing and post-production rendering techniques and dynamics.  Step-by-step tutorials show users how to put Maya tools into action, such as producing brilliant content for film and TV, video games, Web design, and print.  A special 16-page color insert showcases impressive computer graphics, plus the bonus CD-ROM features sample files supporting the tutorials.


Programming:

Carl Young's Adobe Acrobat 6.0: Getting Professional Results from Your PDFs by Carl Young
ISBN: 0-07-223138-6; 400 pages; $34.99
Written by the producer of the PDF Conference, this book explains new features, how to package multimedia elements such as movies and sound files into a PDF and secure PDFs for trustworthy interdepartmental communication, and gives example Acrobat Java Scripts to add interactivity to PDFs.  Readers will learn the most common mistakes users make when creating PDFs, and how to prevent such errors.  Both Acrobat 6.0 Professional and Standard are covered in the book, and keyboard shortcuts for Windows and Mac OS X are included.

JavaScript: The Complete Reference, Second Edition by Thomas Powell & Fritz Schneider
ISBN: 0-07-225357-6; 1008 pages; $39.99
This book provides up to date JavaScript 2.0 coverage, including the latest features to use to make developing JavaScript easier and more flexible.  The authors explain JavaScript principles and show how to develop advanced JavaScript skills.  Sample code is included to lay the groundwork for projects.


Oracle/Databases:

Effective Oracle Database 10g Security by Design by David Knox
ISBN: 0-07-223130-0; 560 pages; $59.99
Oracle security expert David Knox explains how to design and develop an integrated, secure Oracle environment.  Recommendations, best practices, and code examples lead the reader through examples that illustrate how to build secure applications.

Oracle Database 10g XML & SQL: Design, Build & Manage XML Applications in Java, C, C++ & PL/SQL by Mark Scardina, Ben Chang & Jinyu Wang
ISBN: 0-07-222952-7; 656 pages; $59.99
Written by members of the Oracle XML group, this is a must-have reference for all IT managers, DBAs, and developers who want to learn the best practices for using XML with Oracle's XML-enabled products.  Includes real-world case studies based on the authors' experiences managing Oracle's XML Discussion Forum - a community of more than 20,000 XML component users.

Oracle Wait Interface: A Practical Guide to Performance Diagnostic & Tuning by Richmond Shee, Kirtikumar Deshpande, & K. Gopalakrishnan
ISBN: 0-07-222729-X; 384 pages; $49.99
This Oracle Press guide explains how to take full advantage of the revolutionary OWI to quickly pinpoint and solve core problems and bottlenecks and increase productivity exponentially.  Covers Oracle Database Releases 7.x, 8i, 9i, and 10g.  

Microsoft SQL Server 2000 Reporting Services by Brian Larson
ISBN: 0-07-223216-1; 656 pages; $49.99
Written by a member of the development team, this hands-on guide covers everything from installation to administration and shows how to create visually appealing reports with ease and accuracy.  It discusses how to extract data using Query Builder, master key tools such as the Report Wizard and Report Manager, and more.

MySQL: Essential Skills by John Horn & Michael Grey
ISBN: 0-07-225513-7; 384 pages; $29.99
This book explains how to set up a MySQL database on Windows or Linux, how to create a database with tables, load data into the tables, and generate basic and advanced reports.  The authors provide details on how to administer, secure, and back up a database and import data from other programs, and much more.

Crystal Reports 10: The Complete Reference by George Peck
ISBN: 0-07-223166-1; 880 pages; $49.99
George Peck shares vital advice and tips on how to best utilize Crystal Reports features to analyze data.  He explains the entire spectrum of Crystal Reports - from how to develop, design and build a simple report to in-depth information on more complex features such as Crystal Server Pages and integrating Crystal Reports into Visual Basic.NET.


Certification:

HTI+ Home Technology Integrator and CEDIA All-in-One Exam Guide by Helen Heneveld & Ron Gilster
ISBN: 0-07-223132-7; 1008 pages; $69.99
Approved by CompTIA, this is a comprehensive on the job resource for professional installers of home automation technology.  It provides 100% coverage of all exam objectives for CompTIA's HTI+ Certification and CEDIA's Installer Level I exam.  

CWAP Certified Wireless Analysis Professional Official Study Guide (Exam PW 0-30) by Planet3 Wireless
ISBN: 0-07-225585-4; 576 pages; $74.99
This book provides the inside track on this brand new certification - Certified Wireless Analysis Professional - for wireless networking, a burgeoning technology.  Written by Planet3 Wireless, the company that created the CWAP certification, this official guide provides 100% complete, in-depth exam coverage.


Networking:

Cisco: A Beginner's Guide, Third Edition by Toby Velte
ISBN: 0-07-225635-4; 784 pages; $39.99
The third edition has been updated to cover Cisco technologies and new products including Cisco PIX Firewall, new IOS (12.3), new VoIP gear, mature VPN and wireless devices and more!  For those interested in pursuing Cisco certification, this book will also serve as a solid introduction to the networking industry and related technology.



###
 



-- 
---



From pete  Tue Jun 22 13:09:03 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:09:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Xylan
Message-ID: <40D867AF.9040502@nomadlogic.org>

hey all,
    so i may have an old Xylan switch that I can hack up soon.  It runs 
some sort of BSD right now, i have no idea on the hardware specs tho.  
It has 2 MPMG modules and three ESM modules.  Does anyone know any more 
info about this hardware, is it even possible to change the running OS?


-pete

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From pete  Tue Jun 22 15:55:27 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:55:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris...last chance
Message-ID: <40D88EAF.7000704@nomadlogic.org>

hey ya'll i just spoke with soekris regarding the boxen.  I think it's 
probably best to have you all give me money via paypal/cash and i will 
place to order and pay all at once via paypal.
The boxes do not come with a powersupply, altho they do offer a 
powersupply for $10 a pop for quantities over 5.  She said that are 
pretty nice and has not heard of any complaints with people using them.  
For reference the power supply model # is: 31311212 
(http://soekris.com/PowerAccessories.htm).
   We will also have to purchase some flash RAM cards for these 
puppies.  Michael suggested that we purchase some as a group (as well as 
some console cables if necc).  It sounds good to me, I have a flash ram 
card but it could do for a larger one.

   Finally, shipping is free if we do it by ground UPS.  That will take 
7 calendar days (not business days) to get to NYC from cali.  They can 
get them out sooner, but she would have to give us a quote on that which 
i can get.

whew.
So here is the breakdown:
net4801-50 Board and Case               $246
31311212 powersupply quoted at     $10
shipping (UPS ground)                       FREE
Tax, none 'cause the internet rox!
Total                                                      $256 each

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From ike  Tue Jun 22 15:38:17 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:38:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris...last chance
In-Reply-To: <40D88EAF.7000704@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40D88EAF.7000704@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <B5D807B6-C483-11D8-AB8C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Pete,

On Jun 22, 2004, at 3:55 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> hey ya'll i just spoke with soekris regarding the boxen.  I think it's 
> probably best to have you all give me money via paypal/cash and i will 
> place to order and pay all at once via paypal.

Hate to say- I'm out on this right now.  :(
Need to get some more work to get some spare cashflow- so perhaps next 
batch.

I really want to at least see one in the flesh once they come in!
Perhaps a soekris party somewhere to open the boxes?

Rocket-
.ike




From pete  Tue Jun 22 16:48:15 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:48:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris...last chance
In-Reply-To: <B5D807B6-C483-11D8-AB8C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40D88EAF.7000704@nomadlogic.org>
	<B5D807B6-C483-11D8-AB8C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <40D89B0F.2070207@nomadlogic.org>

Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi Pete,
>
> On Jun 22, 2004, at 3:55 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> hey ya'll i just spoke with soekris regarding the boxen.  I think 
>> it's probably best to have you all give me money via paypal/cash and 
>> i will place to order and pay all at once via paypal.
>
>
> Hate to say- I'm out on this right now.  :(
> Need to get some more work to get some spare cashflow- so perhaps next 
> batch.
>
> I really want to at least see one in the flesh once they come in!
> Perhaps a soekris party somewhere to open the boxes?
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
yea totally understand.  we got 5 people in on it so that's not too 
bad.  don't worry we'll have an install fest for all when they come in.

-p

-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From tux  Tue Jun 22 16:00:40 2004
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:00:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris...last chance
References: <40D88EAF.7000704@nomadlogic.org>
	<B5D807B6-C483-11D8-AB8C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <001101c45893$9866fea0$4500a8c0@hephaestus>

> Hate to say- I'm out on this right now.  :(
> Need to get some more work to get some spare cashflow- so perhaps next
> batch.
>
> I really want to at least see one in the flesh once they come in!
> Perhaps a soekris party somewhere to open the boxes?

Same here for right now.  If there's a second order placed in the future,
count me in for that one, as well as an installfest.

-Kevin

P.S. - Can someone give me directions to the next meeting from Jersey?  I
don't know anything about the trains, so I'll probably be driving in via the
tunnel..  Thanks!





From pete  Tue Jun 22 17:12:00 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:12:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris...last chance
In-Reply-To: <001101c45893$9866fea0$4500a8c0@hephaestus>
References: <40D88EAF.7000704@nomadlogic.org>	<B5D807B6-C483-11D8-AB8C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<001101c45893$9866fea0$4500a8c0@hephaestus>
Message-ID: <40D8A0A0.5000900@nomadlogic.org>

Kevin Reiter wrote:

>>Hate to say- I'm out on this right now.  :(
>>Need to get some more work to get some spare cashflow- so perhaps next
>>batch.
>>
>>I really want to at least see one in the flesh once they come in!
>>Perhaps a soekris party somewhere to open the boxes?
>>    
>>
>
>Same here for right now.  If there's a second order placed in the future,
>count me in for that one, as well as an installfest.
>
>  
>
cool, hopefully there will be another order.

>-Kevin
>
>P.S. - Can someone give me directions to the next meeting from Jersey?  I
>don't know anything about the trains, so I'll probably be driving in via the
>tunnel..  Thanks!
>
>  
>
if i remember correctly the next meeting is in SoHo.  If that's the case 
i would take the holland tun.  From there I'd get on canal street and 
shoot uptown on W. Broad or something.  There are several parking 
garages in the neighborhood.  If these very detailed directions don't 
help ;)  I'd check mapquest for street directions.

hth
-pete

>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>  
>


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From ike  Tue Jun 22 17:46:15 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:46:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] meeting directions
Message-ID: <964910CE-C495-11D8-AB8C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Kevin,

On Jun 22, 2004, at 4:00 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> -Kevin
>
> P.S. - Can someone give me directions to the next meeting from Jersey? 
>  I
> don't know anything about the trains, so I'll probably be driving in 
> via the
> tunnel..  Thanks!
>

Here's directions and map to the next meeting space:

http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/

Rocket-
.ike




From joshmccormack  Tue Jun 22 19:22:42 2004
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:22:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>

Trish Lynch wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:
> 
> Honestly, and I've thought this since meeting many of them....
> 
> the OpenBSD folks would catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
> 
> Theo attracts people like him, rude, obnoxious and always correct.
> 
> I'm sure there are some issues with apache, but I'd love to see the
> original emails, I'm sure they're not too friendly.
> 
> - -Trish

I like that people are expected to write code or shutup. I don't mind 
the rudeness. Not that some people don't have valuable thoughts, but all 
too often you have convention halls full of self styled experts who 
complain and demand but  don't contribute.

Josh




From george  Tue Jun 22 19:51:55 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:51:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pf to NetBSD
Message-ID: <2431D446-C4A7-11D8-8D36-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

This is a pretty big deal. . .

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.os.netbsd.devel.cvs/48868

He's a lead tech at the IETF on IPv6, and also NetBSD security officer. 
. .

g




From trish  Tue Jun 22 22:53:40 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:53:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <20040622225054.W47397@ultra.bsdunix.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Josh McCormack wrote:

>
> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup. I don't mind
> the rudeness. Not that some people don't have valuable thoughts, but all
> too often you have convention halls full of self styled experts who
> complain and demand but  don't contribute.
>
> Josh
>

one should put ^for them in between "code" and "or shutup" :)

As some do, there are plenty of people who do code and put thier lives
work in somewhere else, as I do with Ecartis, and others do with Apache,
FreeBSD, NetBSD, Darwin, Linux, GNU-Monkey-Sex, or whatever ;)

They may actually have something valuable to say out of experience.
Remember, the OpenBSD way, while often Correct(tm), has had several issues
of thier own....

- -Trish


- -- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFA2PC4JrIdYm/B/xYRAt8FAKCcTvT7ksmn2k5M20P4ay9YQf51JACgjB6z
8Gfa0jA7iJwXe9KUNNlGnms=
=DGsy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From pete  Wed Jun 23 09:41:42 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:41:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pf to NetBSD
In-Reply-To: <2431D446-C4A7-11D8-8D36-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <2431D446-C4A7-11D8-8D36-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <40D98896.2080908@nomadlogic.org>

G.Rosamond wrote:

> This is a pretty big deal. . .
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.os.netbsd.devel.cvs/48868
>
> He's a lead tech at the IETF on IPv6, and also NetBSD security 
> officer. . .
>
wow this is huge eh?  last week the FreeBSD folks announced that they 
are starting to bring pf into their tree as well.

-p

> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From rcollins  Wed Jun 23 09:58:14 2004
From: rcollins (Robert Collins)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:58:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>

> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.

Personally, I don't like that people are expected to write code or shutup. I
am not an authority on organizational structure by any means. But it seems
to me that when you get a group of people together that want to accomplish
something, from a household all the way to an entire country division of
responsibilities is a necessity.

In our particular situation we need coders, but we also need people like Dan
who may not necessarily code, but are doing their best to help people get
their systems running. We need people to help out newbies in channels like
#freebsdhelp for the same reason. We need people like, once again Dan, who
like to organize conventions. We need people like George for public
relations and evangelism. We need others who aren't necessarily coders but
don't mind testing the hell out of a particular portion of code, the part
coders seem to hate. We need people who are good at translating our geek
speak to write documentation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we *don't* have these things,
nor am I saying that we do. I'm saying that we could use more of it. These
people allow coders to do more of what they know and love. With that, my
point is (forgive me for taking so long to get to it) that just because a
person doesn't code, doesn't mean that they don't have something
constructive to say. Just because a person doesn't code, it doesn't mean
that they don't give back to the community. I know it's very difficult to
listen to what everyone has to say, but that is why it may be a good idea to
not fill our leadership base with people who code, but with experienced
coders, documenters and developers (public relations/fundraising speak) who
are willing to accept the responsibility of task administration. Again, I'm
not saying that this isn't the case now...

> convention halls full of self styled experts who
> complain and demand but  don't contribute.

...I'm just saying maybe non-coders do contribute after all. It sounds more
like the problem is them complaining and demanding. Which brings us back to
attracting more flies with honey than vinegar. It's something that most of
us, especially myself, can use a lesson in.

-rcollins


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh McCormack" <joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com>
To: "NYC Bug List" <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates


> Trish Lynch wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:
> >
> > Honestly, and I've thought this since meeting many of them....
> >
> > the OpenBSD folks would catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
> >
> > Theo attracts people like him, rude, obnoxious and always correct.
> >
> > I'm sure there are some issues with apache, but I'd love to see the
> > original emails, I'm sure they're not too friendly.
> >
> > - -Trish
>
> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup. I don't mind
> the rudeness. Not that some people don't have valuable thoughts, but all
> too often you have convention halls full of self styled experts who
> complain and demand but  don't contribute.
>
> Josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>




From anthony  Wed Jun 23 10:18:51 2004
From: anthony (Anthony Sofia)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:18:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pf to NetBSD
In-Reply-To: <40D98896.2080908@nomadlogic.org>
References: <2431D446-C4A7-11D8-8D36-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<40D98896.2080908@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040623141851.GA91401@dryhump.net>

On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 09:41:42AM -0400, Pete Wright said:
>wow this is huge eh?  last week the FreeBSD folks announced that they 
>are starting to bring pf into their tree as well.

I think some of the driving force of this is the fact the ipsec guys want to
use pf to replace the setkey tool. There was a note on one of the NetBSD
lists a few months ago about this, i'll see if i can dig up a link tonight.
(not really sure if this is the case for freebsd)

Anthony Sofia (anthony at dryhump.net)
--
I'll take care of those murderous trolls.



From pete  Wed Jun 23 10:30:21 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:30:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jails discussion
Message-ID: <40D993FD.8080805@nomadlogic.org>

I remeber a while back there was some discussion about running ssh/ftp 
etc in a jailed environ on FreeBSD.  If anyone is still interested in 
this, I found an old copy of SysAdmin mag that goes through setting up a 
jailed scp config.  The examples are for Linux/Solaris but I think the 
methodology may be of use on other platforms.  I can make a copy of the 
article and bring it to the next meeting.  For those who subscribe to 
the mag it is in issue:

May 2004 * Volume 13 * Number 5

-pete


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Wed Jun 23 11:26:40 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:26:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>
	<002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <B999AEB4-C529-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 23, 2004, at 9:58 AM, Robert Collins wrote:

>> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
>
> Personally, I don't like that people are expected to write code or 
> shutup. I
> am not an authority on organizational structure by any means. But it 
> seems
> to me that when you get a group of people together that want to 
> accomplish
> something, from a household all the way to an entire country division 
> of
> responsibilities is a necessity.

The way I see it is this:

It's *their* project, not yours.  If you don't like their manners, 
policies and/or philosophies then don't use their software.  It's not 
your place to say how they should spend their free time.  Hell, you're 
lucky they share the code with you under a liberal license.

-bob
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From pete  Wed Jun 23 11:36:44 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:36:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <B999AEB4-C529-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>	<002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
	<B999AEB4-C529-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40D9A38C.2030603@nomadlogic.org>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

> On Jun 23, 2004, at 9:58 AM, Robert Collins wrote:
>
>>> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
>>
>>
>> Personally, I don't like that people are expected to write code or 
>> shutup. I
>> am not an authority on organizational structure by any means. But it 
>> seems
>> to me that when you get a group of people together that want to 
>> accomplish
>> something, from a household all the way to an entire country division of
>> responsibilities is a necessity.
>
>
> The way I see it is this:
>
> It's *their* project, not yours.  If you don't like their manners, 
> policies and/or philosophies then don't use their software.  It's not 
> your place to say how they should spend their free time.  Hell, you're 
> lucky they share the code with you under a liberal license.
>

I think the point he was trying to make is that by being a user of an 
opensource project you share some of the responsibility of the project 
itself.  Be it through testing, showing others how to use it, or even 
coding.  That is also what I feel makes opensource projects "better" 
than their closed source counterparts, the sense of shared 
responsibility that the community takes on.

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Wed Jun 23 11:54:57 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:54:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <40D9A38C.2030603@nomadlogic.org>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>	<002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
	<B999AEB4-C529-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<40D9A38C.2030603@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <ACFAAA61-C52D-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 23, 2004, at 11:36 AM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> On Jun 23, 2004, at 9:58 AM, Robert Collins wrote:
>>
>>>> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
>>>
>>> Personally, I don't like that people are expected to write code or 
>>> shutup. I
>>> am not an authority on organizational structure by any means. But it 
>>> seems
>>> to me that when you get a group of people together that want to 
>>> accomplish
>>> something, from a household all the way to an entire country 
>>> division of
>>> responsibilities is a necessity.
>>
>> The way I see it is this:
>>
>> It's *their* project, not yours.  If you don't like their manners, 
>> policies and/or philosophies then don't use their software.  It's not 
>> your place to say how they should spend their free time.  Hell, 
>> you're lucky they share the code with you under a liberal license.
>
> I think the point he was trying to make is that by being a user of an 
> opensource project you share some of the responsibility of the project 
> itself.  Be it through testing, showing others how to use it, or even 
> coding.  That is also what I feel makes opensource projects "better" 
> than their closed source counterparts, the sense of shared 
> responsibility that the community takes on.

I don't really see how open source is a requirement for this kind of 
social model.  Unless you're actually benefitting from looking at the 
code, it really shouldn't make a difference.  I think lots of freeware 
but not open source projects have active user communities that do lots 
of testing and hand-holding.

But anyway, there's a lot of choices out there for open source software 
because there are lots of different kinds of people.  If you don't like 
the OpenBSD social model, there's always GNU SLASH Linux :)

-bob
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From pete  Wed Jun 23 12:02:34 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:02:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Network Assoc.
Message-ID: <40D9A99A.1070800@nomadlogic.org>

If this story is to be believed:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=5487470
what will happen to Robert Watson.  Will he become an employee of 
Microsoft?  (info on Robert http://people.freebsd.org/~rwatson/)  Anyway 
it's all speculation now....

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From george  Wed Jun 23 14:38:07 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:38:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <B999AEB4-C529-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>
	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>
	<002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
	<B999AEB4-C529-11D8-A557-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <7862D576-C544-11D8-B3BA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 23, 2004, at 11:26 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> On Jun 23, 2004, at 9:58 AM, Robert Collins wrote:
>
>>> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
>>
>> Personally, I don't like that people are expected to write code or 
>> shutup. I
>> am not an authority on organizational structure by any means. But it 
>> seems
>> to me that when you get a group of people together that want to 
>> accomplish
>> something, from a household all the way to an entire country division 
>> of
>> responsibilities is a necessity.
>
> The way I see it is this:
>
> It's *their* project, not yours.  If you don't like their manners, 
> policies and/or philosophies then don't use their software.  It's not 
> your place to say how they should spend their free time.  Hell, you're 
> lucky they share the code with you under a liberal license.
>

I don't think this is a moral argument about being nice, personal 
philosophies, etc.

The central question is what is best for a project.

I'm not going to single out the projects.

At the end of the day, it is always the core developers' project.  But 
if a project is alive and successful, and looks at the user base as 
complete fools, then that is *not* positive for the project.  That 
should go without saying, but I think that point is missing.

A project isolated from its user base, continually building walls 
between itself and those who administer and use the operating system 
day-to-day, is suffering a fatal flaw.

Great code is really irrelevant.  But its ability to interact with a 
user, advocacy, etc, community is critical for its funding and real 
world relevance.

Some developers may think they reside in ivory towers in isolation.  
But that's completely false.  Great ideas come into being all the time. 
  But without use and committment from a user base, you fall into 
history as a great idea that didn't succeed.

Neither element, developer or end-user (including sysadmins, etc) is 
optional.

I know that some people are focused on the OBSD project in this 
discussion, but I don't think the issue is just in that arena.  I think 
it's a fundamental flaw in many developer communities.

And I think it becomes a very relevant question when it comes to 
funding, user testing, etc.

I have so much more to respond to in this thread, but I'll leave you 
all in peace for now.. .

g




From lists  Wed Jun 23 15:33:21 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:33:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] carp
Message-ID: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>

I'm reading the OpenBSD man page on carp and I'm unclear on the last part:

"Note: ARP balancing only works on the local network segment. 
Connections which cross a router to arrive on the local network
segment will all appear to come from that router and be balanced
to the same host."

Does that mean that (per man example) carp0 and carp1 have to be on
the same local segment in order to fail over?  Or does that mean that
client machine requests that come over the router will always be
balanced to the same host?  I'm going to guess the former.

Michael


-- 
---



From mspitze1  Wed Jun 23 15:59:37 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:59:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] carp
In-Reply-To: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20040623155937.6f522ca0@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:33:21 -0400
michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:

> "Note: ARP balancing only works on the local network segment. 
> Connections which cross a router to arrive on the local network
> segment will all appear to come from that router and be balanced
> to the same host."
> 
> Does that mean that (per man example) carp0 and carp1 have to be on
> the same local segment in order to fail over?  Or does that mean that

yes, carp is layer 2 load balancing.  As soon as you get to layer 3,
a router port, all layer 2  stuff stops.  Or to be more technical you 
must be in the same layer 2 broadcast domain/segment for this to work.

> client machine requests that come over the router will always be
> balanced to the same host?  I'm going to guess the former.

Off hand I do not know if carp has the ability to do this, I do not
think so though. What you are looking at here is a sticky nat type thing
or a cisco local director type solution, it can be configured to be
sticky.  I also think IPF nat can do that, PF I have  not used.

marc



From mlists  Wed Jun 23 18:15:44 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:15:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] carp
In-Reply-To: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20040623221544.GO2411@bizintegrators.com>

On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 03:33:21PM -0400, michael wrote:
> I'm reading the OpenBSD man page on carp and I'm unclear on the last part:
> 
> "Note: ARP balancing only works on the local network segment. 
> Connections which cross a router to arrive on the local network
> segment will all appear to come from that router and be balanced
> to the same host."
> 
> Does that mean that (per man example) carp0 and carp1 have to be on
> the same local segment in order to fail over?  Or does that mean that
> client machine requests that come over the router will always be
> balanced to the same host?  I'm going to guess the former.
> 

I think it means the later.



From joshmccormack  Wed Jun 23 22:21:09 2004
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:21:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: no more apache updates
In-Reply-To: <002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
References: <3EA9FF26-C403-11D8-A8D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040622035257.T42920@ultra.bsdunix.net>	<40D8BF42.6010707@travelersdiary.com>
	<002401c4592a$210487a0$6401a8c0@dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu>
Message-ID: <40DA3A95.6070009@travelersdiary.com>

Robert Collins wrote:
>>I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
> 
> 
<snip>
> ...I'm just saying maybe non-coders do contribute after all. It sounds more
> like the problem is them complaining and demanding. Which brings us back to
> attracting more flies with honey than vinegar. It's something that most of
> us, especially myself, can use a lesson in.
> 
> -rcollins

I agree with you completely. There are a lot of ways to contribute other 
than code. But what I feel the code or shutup thing means is - do what 
you want to do to contribute, and don't think you have the authority to 
tell someone else what they should do.

I think it's nice when people are receptive to ideas, suggestions and 
feedback on what they're working on, but all too often people harp on 
features they want, and complain when they don't get them.

Josh




From dan  Wed Jun 23 23:05:36 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:05:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Don't like it? Do something. (was no more apache
	updates)
Message-ID: <40DA0CC0.26084.9CD4B239@localhost>

On 23 Jun 2004 at 22:21, Josh McCormack wrote:

> Robert Collins wrote:
> >>I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
> > 
> > 
> <snip>
> > ...I'm just saying maybe non-coders do contribute after all. It sounds more
> > like the problem is them complaining and demanding. Which brings us back to
> > attracting more flies with honey than vinegar. It's something that most of
> > us, especially myself, can use a lesson in.
> > 
> > -rcollins
> 
> I agree with you completely. There are a lot of ways to contribute other 
> than code. But what I feel the code or shutup thing means is - do what 
> you want to do to contribute, and don't think you have the authority to 
> tell someone else what they should do.

Recommended reading items:

  http://www.freebsddiary.org/advocacy.php
  http://www.freebsddiary.org/howtoimprove.php
  http://www.freebsddiary.org/tell-your-story.php
  http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2002/01/31/Big_Scary_Daemons.html

For what it's worth:

I didn't like the end-user documentation.  I started The FreeBSD 
Diary. I liked how Freshmeat worked.  I improved on it by creating 
FreshPorts. I liked the OSW-style conferences, so I created BSDCan.

If you think an idea is good, do it. Don't want for "approval".



-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/




From george  Wed Jun 23 23:20:20 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:20:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Don't like it? Do something. (was no more apache
	updates)
In-Reply-To: <40DA0CC0.26084.9CD4B239@localhost>
References: <40DA0CC0.26084.9CD4B239@localhost>
Message-ID: <6C42241F-C58D-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 23, 2004, at 11:05 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 23 Jun 2004 at 22:21, Josh McCormack wrote:
>
>> Robert Collins wrote:
>>>> I like that people are expected to write code or shutup.
>>>
>>>
>> <snip>
>>> ...I'm just saying maybe non-coders do contribute after all. It 
>>> sounds more
>>> like the problem is them complaining and demanding. Which brings us 
>>> back to
>>> attracting more flies with honey than vinegar. It's something that 
>>> most of
>>> us, especially myself, can use a lesson in.
>>>
>>> -rcollins
>>
>> I agree with you completely. There are a lot of ways to contribute 
>> other
>> than code. But what I feel the code or shutup thing means is - do what
>> you want to do to contribute, and don't think you have the authority 
>> to
>> tell someone else what they should do.
>
> Recommended reading items:
>
>   http://www.freebsddiary.org/advocacy.php
>   http://www.freebsddiary.org/howtoimprove.php
>   http://www.freebsddiary.org/tell-your-story.php
>   http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2002/01/31/Big_Scary_Daemons.html
>
> For what it's worth:
>
> I didn't like the end-user documentation.  I started The FreeBSD
> Diary. I liked how Freshmeat worked.  I improved on it by creating
> FreshPorts. I liked the OSW-style conferences, so I created BSDCan.
>
> If you think an idea is good, do it. Don't want for "approval".
>

Ditto Dan. . .just do it. . .

There's no hierarchy of activity. . .particulary since the bsd 
community is so atomized. . .

We're everywhere. . ..under rocks, hiding behind trees, etc.  Put out a 
call and you'll get people moving.

You're not alone.

g




From george  Thu Jun 24 02:29:37 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:29:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Economist article.  . .
Message-ID: <DDA7D345-C5A7-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

if anyone has a subscription to the Economist, it would be great to  
read this article. ..

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm? 
story_id=S%27%2980%2EQQ7%27%23%40%21%24%0A&CFID=31866143&CFTOKEN=2faeb86 
-3277a683-e2d4-4399-880e-e2837e7c5131




From sunny-ml  Thu Jun 24 05:08:58 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 05:08:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Economist article.  . .
In-Reply-To: <DDA7D345-C5A7-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <DDA7D345-C5A7-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <200406240508.58476.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 24 June 2004 02:29 am, G.Rosamond wrote:
> http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?
> story_id=S%27%2980%2EQQ7%27%23%40%21%24%0A&CFID=31866143&CFTOKEN=2faeb86
> -3277a683-e2d4-4399-880e-e2837e7c5131

this should work for most people:

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=2724348

if not:  simply google for the intro paragraph, and click on the very first 
googe link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dennis%20Ritchie%20invented%20C%20and%20was%20one%20of%20the%20key%20members%20of%20the%20team%20behind%20Unix%E2%80%94two%20developments%20that%20underpin%20much%20modern%20software&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Sunny Dubey



From george  Thu Jun 24 08:38:01 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:38:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX. . .
Message-ID: <5469BCDA-C5DB-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

who's going to be at USENIX next week?

g




From lists  Thu Jun 24 09:07:27 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:07:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] carp
In-Reply-To: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20040623153321.63e0a982@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20040624090727.1d91ba27@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:33:21 -0400
michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:

> I'm reading the OpenBSD man page on carp and I'm unclear 
> 

I checked Ryan McBride's site:  http://www.countersiege.com/ and while
it was an excellent reference, I am still unclear.  It was a Newsforge
article written a few months ago that helped shed some light: 

http://software.newsforge.com/software/04/04/13/1842214.shtml?tid=132&tid=82&tid=91&tid=92

"CARP requires that the members of a group be on the same physical
subnet."

Well that was clear.  The kernel trap interview further explains:
http://kerneltrap.org/node/view/2873 

"JA: What else is planned for CARP?

Ryan McBride: ... and the ability to configure CARP to use an interface
with an address on a different subnet from the common address, or even
no address at all."


The load balancing question is still murkey to me.. Say I'm making an
http request from my computer at the office to the web server on my home
network.  My office pc will have its Network Address Translated
when the packets leave my floor.  I'm OK with that. 

When that packet reaches my single IP at home, it will cross another
router; the destination address will be translated;  to arrive on the
local network segment.  Here I will (hypothetically) have several web
servers running to handle the load.  But, when the packet hits my carp
virtual IP, it still has the same originating IP from leaving the floor
at my office, right?  But the way I am (mis)reading the man page, it
will all appear to come from the router at home and be balanced to the
same host.

I want to make sure the man page is saying to me... 

"Because CARP uses a hash of the originating IP address to determine
which system to handle the request, all requests coming from all the
computers at your office will look the same to carp and be balanced to
the same host"  

And not  "all reqeusts coming from outside your home router will look
the same to carp".

Michael



-- 
---



From marco  Thu Jun 24 09:27:16 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:27:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Economist article.  . .
In-Reply-To: <DDA7D345-C5A7-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <DDA7D345-C5A7-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040624132716.GC6993@metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 02:29:37AM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote:
> if anyone has a subscription to the Economist, it would be great to  
> read this article. ..
> 
I have this edition in print.  The Economist seems to have fallen in
love with the term 'Open Source'.  It is used more often than I have
ever seen in a general publication, usually coniciding with the phrase, 

  'Linux is the most well known example of Open Source ...'  

The Dennis Ritchie article you mention makes it seem like the BSD's are
a thing of the 80's.  One does not get the idea that BSDs are
available today. eg. 

  'Linux is also the true heir of the Unix tradition in the sense that
  its development process is collaborative.'

Letter to the editor?

-- 
Marco



From lists  Thu Jun 24 08:47:57 2004
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:47:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mac person
Message-ID: <20040624084407.N71432@zoraida.natserv.net>

Need a Mac person to help someone.

It's a client of a client so don't know about her setup. She just said she
has an Imac, but I don't know which OS version.

Please send me your phone, rate and availability so I can forwrad to this
person.

She lives in manhattan and would need the person to go to her house.




From trish  Thu Jun 24 10:25:56 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:25:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX. . .
In-Reply-To: <5469BCDA-C5DB-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <5469BCDA-C5DB-11D8-AC82-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040624102534.W47397@ultra.bsdunix.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:

> who's going to be at USENIX next week?
>
> g
>

I was going, but personal stuff caused some issues, so not going now....

- -Trish


- -- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFA2uR3JrIdYm/B/xYRAmZEAJ0WhTy4F1MQC8mcKx7aW6xc9pQrlgCgqcYb
/jcSWXZf8Kdzrh6K/T3dKnQ=
=0ILW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From rcollins  Thu Jun 24 13:15:30 2004
From: rcollins (Robert Collins)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:15:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mac person
Message-ID: <20040624171657.41179A860A@virtu.nyphp.org>

> She lives in manhattan and would need the person to go to her house.

Mac geeks rejoice.

-rcollins





From mikel.king  Thu Jun 24 15:25:00 2004
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:25:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mac person
Message-ID: <20040624192557.804D6A860A@virtu.nyphp.org>



"Robert Collins" <rcollins at hwi.buffalo.edu> wrote:
__________
>> She lives in manhattan and would need the person to go to her house.
>
>Mac geeks rejoice.
>
>-rcollins
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at lists.nycbug.org
>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

uh who what where ? Did I miss something here?




From bob  Thu Jun 24 15:54:56 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:54:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mac person
In-Reply-To: <20040624192557.804D6A860A@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <20040624192557.804D6A860A@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <5DEA405A-C618-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 24, 2004, at 3:25 PM, Mikel King wrote:

>
>
> "Robert Collins" <rcollins at hwi.buffalo.edu> wrote:
> __________
>>> She lives in manhattan and would need the person to go to her house.
>>
>> Mac geeks rejoice.
>
> uh who what where ? Did I miss something here?

Apparently someone with a Mac needs a tech support house call.  Doesn't 
tekserve or digital domain do such things?

-bob

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From mikel.king  Thu Jun 24 21:53:27 2004
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:53:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] posix article...
Message-ID: <40DB8597.8060200@ocsny.com>

Anyone else read this?

http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;602471897;fp;2;fpid;1

-- 
Cheers,
Mikel King
Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
39 West Fourteenth Street
Second Floor
New York, NY 10011
http://www.ocsny.com

+------------------------------------------+
You may like them. You will see. You may
like them in a tree.
http://www.FreeBSD.org
http://www.OpenOffice.org
http://www.Mozilla.org
http://www.MySql.org
+------------------------------------------+
How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other,
but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your
spirit, while competition only stokes your ego.
+------------------------------------------+




From george  Thu Jun 24 21:56:23 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:56:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] posix article...
In-Reply-To: <40DB8597.8060200@ocsny.com>
References: <40DB8597.8060200@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <DC230B72-C64A-11D8-9657-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 24, 2004, at 9:53 PM, Mikel King wrote:

> Anyone else read this?
>
> http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;602471897;fp;2;fpid;1
>
>

This was raised recently on OBSD-misc. . .

g




From hans  Fri Jun 25 10:00:33 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:00:33 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


Let's say there is a CD that contains a knowledge base of information on
it, and it needs to be distributed.  The knowledge base needs to be
protected from copying or dumping all the data, and should only be
accessible through an Apache/Web application that is distributed on the
CD.

My main question is would OpenBSD (or some other flavor) offer an
encrypted filesystem that would help in this case?  There are a couple
variables I've been thinking about that makes the answer unclear to me
(read-only filesystem, Apache will need to read the data anyway, etc).

Any thoughts would be appreciated,

H





From bob  Fri Jun 25 10:20:28 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:20:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
Message-ID: <CF2ED792-C6B2-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

On Jun 25, 2004, at 10:00 AM, Hans Zaunere wrote:

> Let's say there is a CD that contains a knowledge base of information 
> on
> it, and it needs to be distributed.  The knowledge base needs to be
> protected from copying or dumping all the data, and should only be
> accessible through an Apache/Web application that is distributed on the
> CD.
>
> My main question is would OpenBSD (or some other flavor) offer an
> encrypted filesystem that would help in this case?  There are a couple
> variables I've been thinking about that makes the answer unclear to me
> (read-only filesystem, Apache will need to read the data anyway, etc).
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated,

Well anything that the computer can see, a person can see too.  Imagine 
running this under Bochs.  Why not host it remotely and allow access 
only through VPN+HTTPS w/ client certs or something?  What about just 
duplicating the CD?  Distributing an image of Bochs+CD to all your 
friends?  Screen scraping the hell out of it until all the data is 
sapped?

Your problem is that the private key for whatever you're trying to 
protect must ALSO be at that computer.. so any encryption or whatever 
that you do is really just a nuisance, not a roadblock.  Look at what 
happened to CSS, or any given DRM scheme, for example.

Maybe your best option is to just give up and allow less restricted 
access to your data.  It's probably better for your business to sue the 
hell out of them if they break the law than to make it difficult for 
them to use the software.  One way to make it easier to sue the hell 
out of them may be to watermark the data with the customer's 
information in such a way that it's not easily detected (and thus, not 
likely to be removed)...

-bob
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From mikel.king  Fri Jun 25 10:55:13 2004
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:55:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mac person
In-Reply-To: <5DEA405A-C618-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <20040624192557.804D6A860A@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<5DEA405A-C618-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <40DC3CD1.3030305@ocsny.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jun 24, 2004, at 3:25 PM, Mikel King wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Robert Collins" <rcollins at hwi.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>> __________
>>
>>>> She lives in manhattan and would need the person to go to her house.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mac geeks rejoice.
>>
>>
>> uh who what where ? Did I miss something here?
>
>
> Apparently someone with a Mac needs a tech support house call.  
> Doesn't tekserve or digital domain do such things?
>
> -bob
>
Hmmm for a a 12pack of BASS I'd do it...;-)



From marco  Fri Jun 25 11:01:26 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:01:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
In-Reply-To: <CF2ED792-C6B2-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
	<CF2ED792-C6B2-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040625150126.GM30761@metm.org>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:20:28AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
<snip>
> them to use the software.  One way to make it easier to sue the hell 
> out of them may be to watermark the data with the customer's 
> information in such a way that it's not easily detected (and thus, not 
> likely to be removed)...
> 
One take I have seen on watermarking is to deliberately mispell words in
such a way that they are readable (like the spammers) but difficult to
spellcheck.  I guess that the idea is that the misspelled versions are
so improbable that should they make it onto the net you can find the
leak. 

  eg. examples => epeamxls 

in context: 

  There are a lot of epeamxls of this, but ...

Is readable, but not spellcheckable.

The most prominent example I have seen is this manual to a free software
equivalent to Pro Tools: http://ardour.org/manual.pdf

-- 
Marco



From hans  Fri Jun 25 12:16:35 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:16:35 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702C53EC7@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


> > Any thoughts would be appreciated,
> 
> Well anything that the computer can see, a person can see 
> too.  Imagine running this under Bochs.  Why not host it 
> remotely and allow access only through VPN+HTTPS w/ client 
> certs or something?  What about just duplicating the CD?  
> Distributing an image of Bochs+CD to all your friends?  
> Screen scraping the hell out of it until all the data is sapped?
> 
> Your problem is that the private key for whatever you're 
> trying to protect must ALSO be at that computer.. so any 
> encryption or whatever that you do is really just a nuisance, 
> not a roadblock.  Look at what happened to CSS, or any given 
> DRM scheme, for example.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly... the user has the bits in their hand...
it'll be rough to protect.

> Maybe your best option is to just give up and allow less 
> restricted access to your data.  It's probably better for 
> your business to sue the hell out of them if they break the 
> law than to make it difficult for them to use the software.  
> One way to make it easier to sue the hell out of them may be 
> to watermark the data with the customer's information in such 
> a way that it's not easily detected (and thus, not likely to 
> be removed)...

Unfortuneately I'm just giving some advice to someone, otherwise I'd do
things very differently  :)

Thanks guys,

H



From bob  Fri Jun 25 12:27:02 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:27:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
In-Reply-To: <20040625150126.GM30761@metm.org>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
	<CF2ED792-C6B2-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040625150126.GM30761@metm.org>
Message-ID: <7D677F9F-C6C4-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 25, 2004, at 11:01 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:20:28AM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> <snip>
>> them to use the software.  One way to make it easier to sue the hell
>> out of them may be to watermark the data with the customer's
>> information in such a way that it's not easily detected (and thus, not
>> likely to be removed)...
>>
> One take I have seen on watermarking is to deliberately mispell words 
> in
> such a way that they are readable (like the spammers) but difficult to
> spellcheck.  I guess that the idea is that the misspelled versions are
> so improbable that should they make it onto the net you can find the
> leak.

Another is since TMTOWTDI with regard to HTML/XML, you can really get 
away with a lot.  Meaningless tags, whitespace, &codes;, etc.

-bob
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From marco  Fri Jun 25 12:39:10 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:39:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
In-Reply-To: <7D677F9F-C6C4-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
	<CF2ED792-C6B2-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040625150126.GM30761@metm.org>
	<7D677F9F-C6C4-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040625163910.GN30761@metm.org>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 12:27:02PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> Another is since TMTOWTDI with regard to HTML/XML, you can really get 
> away with a lot.  Meaningless tags, whitespace, &codes;, etc.
> 
When the watermarking is actually in the content, as in the example I
provided, it is impossible to strip with a pdf2html type application.
Delivery in any format would require human work to remove the misspelled
'watermarks', and if you are publishing in multiple formats, again the
same watermarks remain.

I was always intrigued by this example which is why I mentioned it.

-- 
Marco



From bob  Fri Jun 25 12:43:31 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:43:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protecting a CD
In-Reply-To: <20040625163910.GN30761@metm.org>
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702BAA9F3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
	<CF2ED792-C6B2-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040625150126.GM30761@metm.org>
	<7D677F9F-C6C4-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040625163910.GN30761@metm.org>
Message-ID: <CAD115CC-C6C6-11D8-94F6-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 25, 2004, at 12:39 PM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 12:27:02PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> Another is since TMTOWTDI with regard to HTML/XML, you can really get
>> away with a lot.  Meaningless tags, whitespace, &codes;, etc.
>>
> When the watermarking is actually in the content, as in the example I
> provided, it is impossible to strip with a pdf2html type application.
> Delivery in any format would require human work to remove the 
> misspelled
> 'watermarks', and if you are publishing in multiple formats, again the
> same watermarks remain.
>
> I was always intrigued by this example which is why I mentioned it.

It is definitely a particularly robust watermarking scheme for text in 
that it's independent of the media, but it noticeably degrades the 
content.

-bob
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From pete  Fri Jun 25 21:00:30 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:00:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dmesg on nycbug.org
Message-ID: <40DCCAAE.4090209@nomadlogic.org>

so i posted a link to daemonnews.org yesterday about the dmesg page that 
hans has setup. here is the link to the post:

http://bsdnews.com/view_story.php3?story_id=4617

anyway, it looks like alot of people have used the site since the 24th.  
there is a respectible amount of crazy netbsd stuff up already 
(Mips/Alpha/oh yea and this one "Apple Macintosh IIci  (68030)" ;^)

check out all the new posts:
http://www.nycbug.org/dmesgd/

-pete


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bschonhorst  Fri Jun 25 23:10:58 2004
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:10:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dmesg on nycbug.org
In-Reply-To: <40DCCAAE.4090209@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40DCCAAE.4090209@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <724081DA-C71E-11D8-87BE-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>


On Jun 25, 2004, at 9:00 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> so i posted a link to daemonnews.org yesterday about the dmesg page 
> that hans has setup. here is the link to the post:
>
> http://bsdnews.com/view_story.php3?story_id=4617
>
> anyway, it looks like alot of people have used the site since the 
> 24th.  there is a respectible amount of crazy netbsd stuff up already 
> (Mips/Alpha/oh yea and this one "Apple Macintosh IIci  (68030)" ;^)

I noticed the hostname/email address gets XXXed out when you look at 
the full tag, however, the email address IS displayed on the tag only 
view.  I should have noticed that before posting...


______________

Brad Schonhorst

Network Administrator
Village Community School

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From george  Sat Jun 26 00:20:41 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:20:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dmesgd page on www site
Message-ID: <2F195B75-C728-11D8-A690-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

For those how haven't noticed, Pete posted the dmesg section of the 
NYCBUG site to Daemon News. . .

It's got some 185 postings of a whole host of dmesg outputs at this 
point, and it's raised some discussion on the DN site.

We will be expanding this further in the coming weeks.  Hans is the 
point man on this, and we should give a big thanks to Hans and his New 
York PHP buddies.

It can be a great resource for the BSD community, particularly for 
those looking at supported hardware issues.

If you haven't uploaded your BSD dmesg, join the mad rush. . .

g




From hans  Sat Jun 26 03:09:12 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:09:12 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dmesg on nycbug.org
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702C542A2@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


> I noticed the hostname/email address gets XXXed out when you 
> look at the full tag, however, the email address IS displayed 
> on the tag only view.  I should have noticed that before posting...

I noticed the same thing and fixed it after a couple of posts...

H




From pete  Sat Jun 26 09:22:15 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:22:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dmesg on nycbug.org
In-Reply-To: <724081DA-C71E-11D8-87BE-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
References: <40DCCAAE.4090209@nomadlogic.org>
	<724081DA-C71E-11D8-87BE-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <D75C4576-C773-11D8-9802-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jun 25, 2004, at 11:10 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

>
> On Jun 25, 2004, at 9:00 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> so i posted a link to daemonnews.org yesterday about the dmesg page 
>> that hans has setup. here is the link to the post:
>>
>> http://bsdnews.com/view_story.php3?story_id=4617
>>
>> anyway, it looks like alot of people have used the site since the 
>> 24th.  there is a respectible amount of crazy netbsd stuff up already 
>> (Mips/Alpha/oh yea and this one "Apple Macintosh IIci  (68030)" ;^)
>
> I noticed the hostname/email address gets XXXed out when you look at 
> the full tag, however, the email address IS displayed on the tag only 
> view.  I should have noticed that before posting...

good catch.  maybe hans, or someone else if he is too busy, can make 
that change.

-p




From lists  Sat Jun 26 16:15:09 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:15:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, June 25]
Message-ID: <40DDD94D.8030909@genoverly.net>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, June 25
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:08:47 -0700

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
June 25, 2004
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Programming Jakarta Struts, 2nd Edition
-The Best Damn Windows 2003 Server Book
-Java Cookbook, 2nd Edition
-Google: The Missing Manual
-Richard Thieme's Islands in the Clickstream
-CYA: Securing IIS 6.0
-CYA: Securing Exchange Server 2003 & Outlook Web Access
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Apple WWDC, San Francisco, CA--June 28-July 2
-JavaOne, San Francisco, CA--June 28-July 1
-Edd Dumbill ("Linux Unwired"), GNOME User and Developer European
Conference, Kristiansand, Norway--June 28-30
-James Duncan Davidson ("Mac OS X Panther Hacks," "Running Mac OS X
Panther"),  Apple Store, San Francisco, CA--June 30
-Steve Bass ("PC Annoyances"), Anchorage Borders,
Anchorage, AK--July 7
-Steve Bass ("PC Annoyances"), Alaska Computer Society PC Users Group,
Anchorage, AK--July 8
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-O'Reilly Open Source Convention User Group Discount
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Don't forget--Visit with O'Reilly Editors at 2004 USENIX Annual Tech
Boston, MA--June 27-July 2
-O'Reilly Network Launches eDocuments
-The Open Source Paradigm Shift
-A Linux Quick Reference to Useful Commands
-The Pragmatic Programmers Interview
-Voice Recording Magic with the iPod
-RSS: The Next Generation
-A Brief Introduction to GPS Photo Linking
-Windows Server Hacks: Using Saved Queries to Find Locked Accounts
-Easily Purge Spyware, Adware, and Other Malware
-Using a JMS Provider with MDBs via the J2EE Connector Architecture
-Working with Hibernate in Eclipse
-SP.NET Forms Security by Jesse Liberty
----------------------------------------------------------------
News From Your Peers
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Share your Group's Secrets to Success on the O'Reilly UG Wiki.

================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
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Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch,
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----------------------------------------------------------------
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The CYA series are highly portable, easily digestible road-maps to
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================================================
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***Apple WWDC, San Francisco, CA--June 28-July 2
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***JavaOne, San Francisco, CA--June 28-July 1
Drop by our booth (#1416) to check out our latest Java offerings. 	
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Author Edd Dumbill (Linux Unwired) speaks at the fifth annual GUADEC.
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***James Duncan Davidson ("Mac OS X Panther Hacks," "Running Mac OS X
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Steve visits the Anchorage Borders beginning at 7:00 p.m. Stop by to say
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***Steve Bass ("PC Annoyances"), Alaska Computer Society PC Users Group,
Anchorage, AK--July 8
Join Steve at the ACSPCUG monthly meeting. 	
http://www.acs-pcug.org/index.htm

================================================
Conference News
================================================
***O'Reilly Open Source Convention User Group Discount
User Group use code DSUG when you register, and you'll get 20%

To register, go to:
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================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
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***Don't forget--Visit with O'Reilly Editors at 2004 USENIX Annual Tech
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---------------------
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---------------------
***Voice Recording Magic with the iPod
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***RSS: The Next Generation
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***A Brief Introduction to GPS Photo Linking
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---------------------
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---------------------
***Windows Server Hacks: Using Saved Queries to Find Locked Accounts
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Mitch Tulloch, author of "Windows Server Hacks," shows you how to use
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***Easily Purge Spyware, Adware, and Other Malware
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---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Using a JMS Provider with MDBs via the J2EE Connector Architecture
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***Working with Hibernate in Eclipse
Jim Elliott was curious about whether anyone had written plugins to work
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underway. In this article, Jim explores Hibernate Synchronizer--a plugin
that automatically updates your Java code when you change your mapping
document.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/06/23/hibernate.html

---------------------
.NET
---------------------
***SP.NET Forms Security
Jesse Liberty shows how easy it is to provide forms-based security via
login screens and authentication in Whidbey.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/06/14/liberty_whidbey.html

================================================
News From Your Peers
================================================
***Share your Group's Secrets to Success on the O'Reilly UG Wiki
List you tricks and experiences to share:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/null?UGSuggestions





From ike  Sat Jun 26 18:45:43 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:45:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <8E449991-C7C2-11D8-B415-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Bob,

I'm really happy you asked this question here, as I was planning to go 
to WWDC but now cannot- and have some definite questions for this 
summer's event:

On Jun 20, 2004, at 12:54 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> I'm attending WWDC later this month (28th-2nd), and I know a lot of 
> you own or maintain Apple gear, so I was wondering if there are any 
> pressing questions or issues that you all have that I can take with me 
> to San Fran.  I'm quasi-officially representing the MacPython 
> community on my ticket, but I'm sure I could be of some service to the 
> local BSD community as well.
>
> As the title suggests, this is a developers conference, so I will be 
> speaking with mostly engineers.  Questions and comments about Apple's 
> legal/political stance do not apply.  Also, it should be obvious that 
> it's hardly even worth asking questions about Apple's future plans 
> (beyond the Tiger release, anyway).  You've got a full week to come up 
> with stuff, so take your time.  If it's about a technical issue please 
> do a little research first (Google is your friend?) to make sure that 
> we're not asking for answers already available.

Well, I have 2 questions- both of which, when I asked the East Coast 
sales engineer when he spoke at NYCBUG, he said should be sounded off 
at some meeting on the last day where apple business suits and 
engineering management sit and listen to Developer's beefs-

The first question is a small-ish unix question with regard to Tiger 
features, and I'm fine not knowing the answer if it's supped to stay 
secret until release:
Is the FreeBSD jail call (and jailing subsystem) going to be 
implemented in Tiger?  This was rumored among reliable sources, and I'm 
VERY interested in this functionality.

--
The second question, is more of a request from Apple- and I know 
exactly where/how to direct it.
When the Apple Engineer spoke at NYCBUG, I asked some very specific 
questions about Open Source, and Apple's contribution back to the Open 
Source communities, where Apple is becoming an excellent connoisseur of 
technologies, (to their, and our benefit).
Basically, I see a large participation hole at this stage of Apple's 
Open Source plans, insomuch as I feel their direct feedback into 
various Open Source projects (actually getting some of their internal 
developers commiting code externally, and besides the FreeBSD tree), 
would help them from a business perspective, in many ways.  Let me give 
an example-

If apple got one of their Rendezvous/zero-conf developers to write and 
contribute some Rendezvous packages to any of the FreeBSD, OpenBSD and 
NetBSD teams, and perhaps some Linux distro, with the rammifications of 
making low-level networking Rendezvous aware, and things like ssl 
simply worked with rendezvous, it would be a HUGE benefit for sysadmins 
all over, and could get more apple machines into their networks- (by 
exposing them to awesome Apple stuff, much like the strategy for 
putting iTunes/iPods on Windows, but likely a lot less work [!]).

With that, I'd really like to See apple put more direct code out into 
other projects, in order to not only share particular technologies by 
making them usable outside of Apple stuff, but also to make Apple stuff 
natively more interoperable (and therefore desirable) to start slipping 
into our respective IT infrastructures.

The Apple Engineer stated that these Forums, on the last day of WWDC, 
are EXACTLY THE PLACE TO ASK WHAT I JUST ASKED:

The Sunset Room:
FF015 (2:00 - 3:30 PM)
  Enterprise Feedback Forum
FF000 (3:30 - 5:00 PM)
  WebObjects Feedback Forum
FF011 (5:00 - 6:30 PM)
  Worldwide Developer Relations Feedback Forum

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/calendar/friday_pm.html

>
> Additionally, since I am and will be under NDA, I may not be able to 
> completely answer all inquiries immediately upon my return as some of 
> the information may be dependent on information Apple has not yet made 
> public which I will not legally be allowed to disclose.

Understandable, have fun with it!!!!

> However, I assure you that questions asked and comments raised are 
> better than those never heard :)

Indeed!

Rocket,
.ike





From sunny-ml  Sat Jun 26 19:43:30 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:43:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <8E449991-C7C2-11D8-B415-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<8E449991-C7C2-11D8-B415-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200406261943.31077.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Saturday 26 June 2004 06:45 pm, Isaac Levy wrote:

[...]

> it would be a HUGE benefit for sysadmins
> all over, and could get more apple machines into their networks- (by
> exposing them to awesome Apple stuff, much like the strategy for
> putting iTunes/iPods on Windows, but likely a lot less work [!]).
>
> With that, I'd really like to See apple put more direct code out into
> other projects, in order to not only share particular technologies by
> making them usable outside of Apple stuff, but also to make Apple stuff
> natively more interoperable (and therefore desirable) to start slipping
> into our respective IT infrastructures.

Erm,

IMO those sound like some pretty self-serving OSS contributions ...

How about doing some stuff just for good-will ? Like sponsoring some of the 
great work Eirc Anholt does for the *BSDs in terms of Xorg? Right now 
*linux*fund pays him to do that ...

The likes of redhat/suse (pre-Novell) are much smaller than Apple, but I've 
seem them do more for OSS in general which in turn effects the *BSDs.

Sunny Dubey



From ike  Sat Jun 26 20:15:24 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:15:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <200406261943.31077.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<8E449991-C7C2-11D8-B415-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200406261943.31077.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <161480BC-C7CF-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Sunny, All,

On Jun 26, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

>> With that, I'd really like to See apple put more direct code out into
>> other projects, in order to not only share particular technologies by
>> making them usable outside of Apple stuff, but also to make Apple 
>> stuff
>> natively more interoperable (and therefore desirable) to start 
>> slipping
>> into our respective IT infrastructures.
>
> Erm,
>
> IMO those sound like some pretty self-serving OSS contributions ...

Not sure if you mean self-serving for Apple, of self-serving for me :)

If you mean me, well heck yeah it's self-serving.  I constantly find 
things in Apple/Darwin/OSX machines that are AWESOME and eloquently 
executed ideas, and would save me oodles of time if they existed to 
provide clean interoperation with my other *NIX boxen, which are what I 
use for the bulk of the work I'm involved with.  As an Apple lover with 
a relationship with Apple stuff for over 15 years, I almost feel more 
like a shareholder here, and totally want to make sure I keep paying 
for systems I WANT to use, for various reasons...

--
If you mean Apple being self-serving, well, Apple isn't in OSS for 
kicks here- they are a business, and IMO need to see direct monetary 
ramifications to feed their ability to contribute (big picture through 
small strategic acts).  Every OSS project must sustain itself, and this 
manifests in MANY different ways- from FSF to Apple, every project must 
sustain itself and it's own growth- (btw your talking to a 
card-carrying FSF member, BSD fanatic, Zope/Python Contributer, and 
long-time Apple fan).

With that, Sunny: I'm curious to know similarly what has IBM done in 
this area with Linux?  They are clearly using linux and providing a lot 
of support to OSS, (much like Apple here), and are a large corporation 
with business interests first, (much like Apple again).
Besides being good connoisseurs of Open Source, how has IBM given back 
to OSS (directly or indirectly?), and what is the general Linux 
developer opinion on IBM's practices?


>
> How about doing some stuff just for good-will ? Like sponsoring some 
> of the
> great work Eirc Anholt does for the *BSDs in terms of Xorg? Right now
> *linux*fund pays him to do that ...

Well, Sunny, I'm not really sure what you mean here.  Why would Apple 
have any incentive to get involved with the Freedesktop project, when 
part of it's business is selling a desktop of their own?

If this question is merely flame-bait, pipe it to /dev/null, but if 
this is a serious question in some context I'm missing here, please 
tell me-

Fun fact: Apple has contributed some very cool patches back to the 
XFree86 project, while they were in the process of creating an X86 
distro of their own which interoperates with the Aqua finder.  In that 
case, some OSS code came out of Apple, which they wrote while they were 
doing something for themselves- (and which they re-distribute as OSS), 
but I still don't see how Xorg fits into that picture...

>
> The likes of redhat/suse (pre-Novell) are much smaller than Apple, but 
> I've
> seem them do more for OSS in general which in turn effects the *BSDs.

I still don't understand this question here- does RedHat do anything 
directly that doesn't affect their own strategy and market share for 
RedHat in enterprise?  What about SuSe, I mean, even before Novel, they 
had to make decisions that benefited SuSe by letting it's developers 
get feed- so asking them to get involved writing something outside of 
their vision would be a silly sidetrack which SuSe would have no 
reason/resources to do- have they stepped outside of this in some 
signifigant way which I have missed?

Rocket,
.ike




From ike  Sat Jun 26 20:57:14 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:57:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] posix article...
In-Reply-To: <DC230B72-C64A-11D8-9657-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <40DB8597.8060200@ocsny.com>
	<DC230B72-C64A-11D8-9657-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <EE247198-C7D4-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 24, 2004, at 9:56 PM, G.Rosamond wrote:

> On Jun 24, 2004, at 9:53 PM, Mikel King wrote:
>
>> Anyone else read this?
>>
>> http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;602471897;fp;2;fpid;1
>>
>>
>
> This was raised recently on OBSD-misc. . .

Yummy..... POSIX!  POSIX adherance has always been a sweet spot for me  
re. FreeBSD:


http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/ 
index.html
[...]
	9.  	Get copies of formal standards like POSIX?. You can get some  
links about these standards at the FreeBSD C99 & POSIX Standards  
Conformance Project web site.
(http://www.FreeBSD.org/projects/c99/index.html) Compare FreeBSD's  
behavior to that required by the standard. If the behavior differs,  
particularly in subtle or obscure corners of the specification, send in  
a PR about it. If you are able, figure out how to fix it and include a  
patch in the PR. If you think the standard is wrong, ask the standards  
body to consider the question.

Rocket-
.ike





From sunny-ml  Sat Jun 26 22:32:13 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:32:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <161480BC-C7CF-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<200406261943.31077.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<161480BC-C7CF-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200406262232.13774.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Saturday 26 June 2004 08:15 pm, Sir Levy wrote:
> Hi Sunny, All,
>
> On Jun 26, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:
> >> With that, I'd really like to See apple put more direct code out into
> >> other projects, in order to not only share particular technologies by
> >> making them usable outside of Apple stuff, but also to make Apple
> >> stuff
> >> natively more interoperable (and therefore desirable) to start
> >> slipping
> >> into our respective IT infrastructures.
> >
> > Erm,
> >
> > IMO those sound like some pretty self-serving OSS contributions ...
>
> Not sure if you mean self-serving for Apple, of self-serving for me :)
>
> If you mean me, well heck yeah it's self-serving.  I constantly find
> things in Apple/Darwin/OSX machines that are AWESOME and eloquently
> executed ideas
> provide clean interoperation with my other *NIX boxen, which are what I
> use for the bulk of the work I'm involved with.  As an Apple lover with
> a relationship with Apple stuff for over 15 years, I almost feel more
> like a shareholder here, and totally want to make sure I keep paying
> for systems I WANT to use, for various reasons...
>
> --
> If you mean Apple being self-serving, well, Apple isn't in OSS for
> kicks here- they are a business, and IMO need to see direct monetary
> ramifications to feed their ability to contribute (big picture through
> small strategic acts).  Every OSS project must sustain itself, and this
> manifests in MANY different ways- from FSF to Apple, every project must
> sustain itself and it's own growth- (btw your talking to a
> card-carrying FSF member, BSD fanatic, Zope/Python Contributer, and
> long-time Apple fan).
>

[snip]IBM stuff[snip]

>
> > How about doing some stuff just for good-will ? Like sponsoring some
> > of the
> > great work Eirc Anholt does for the *BSDs in terms of Xorg? Right now
> > *linux*fund pays him to do that ...
>
> Well, Sunny, I'm not really sure what you mean here.  Why would Apple
> have any incentive to get involved with the Freedesktop project, when
> part of it's business is selling a desktop of their own?
>
> If this question is merely flame-bait, pipe it to /dev/null, but if
> this is a serious question in some context I'm missing here, please
> tell me-

I'm obviously aware of economics of how a corporation should be run and 
such.  I also fully understand that throwing money to OSS just to look good 
isn't going to add real numbers to the ledger anytime soon.  However I do 
know that even a million dollars per year is chump-change for Apple, but is 
priceless to lots of OSS projects in terms of man hours and support.

I bring up Eric Anholt up because he is one of the primary reasons BSD has 
support for open source OpenGL.  Sure DRI/Mesa OpenGL is crappy, but its 
something.  By having such a infrastructure existing on the *BSDs, it adds 
value to the OSes as a whole.  By adding value, your project in turn has 
the ability to attract people/developers to your OS.

Such an attraction is good because these people are going to be the source 
of new development, bug reporting, etc ... all which go into a BSD tree, 
which ends up in Apple's tree as well.

However, in the status-quo, I see the BSD's largely putting up for 
themselves on their own*.  I've noticed that the problems the BSD's face 
aren't shared about OS-X.    Lets suppose I'm a new and aspiring developer 
who wants to jump into *nix .. yet I've noticed that *BSD doesn't support 
bare 3d-accel for my video card, barely supports my wifi card, and the 
power management features of my computer (MSFT-centric ACPI) don't work... 
why would I want to use *bsd when linux some-what supports the above 
features ?

The above is the major reason why people would rather run OS-X/ibook over 
BSD/laptop ... 

The problem is Apple has defined the BSDs to be the base of its flag-ship 
product yet IMO does not do outside the scope of whatever effects them 
directly.  I think Apple should do the minimal amounts to ensure that their 
foundation projects does not ever lose ground.

* (Now I'm not saying that BSD's are ever going to be dependent of 
commercial support.  Far from it.  But there is no denying that corporate 
involvement goes along way for just about anyone.)

>
> Fun fact: Apple has contributed some very cool patches back to the
> XFree86 project, while they were in the process of creating an X86
> distro of their own which interoperates with the Aqua finder.  In that
> case, some OSS code came out of Apple, which they wrote while they were
> doing something for themselves- (and which they re-distribute as OSS),
> but I still don't see how Xorg fits into that picture...

erm, I'm not here to question your word, nor make this tit-for-tat, but as 
someone who follows former-Xfree86/Xorg developement, I can't remember when 
Apple has ever contributed major work to the project (which is somewhat 
understandable cuz no one could really contrib to XFree86 until Xorg came 
around, heh).

[paste]ibm stuff[/paste]

Sorry for slightly changing the order of this paragraph.  Except it stood 
out as a different point from the others above.

> With that, Sunny: I'm curious to know similarly what has IBM done in
> this area with Linux?  They are clearly using linux and providing a lot
> of support to OSS, (much like Apple here), and are a large corporation
> with business interests first, (much like Apple again).
> Besides being good connoisseurs of Open Source, how has IBM given back
> to OSS (directly or indirectly?), and what is the general Linux
> developer opinion on IBM's practices?
>

IBM is definately loved by linux folks (especially with the whole SCUM Group 
debacle).  I suppose this is the case because of the little things that the 
various IBM branches do for linux.  On FreeNode, one can do "/who 
*.ibm.com" and find various IBM empolyees sitting in the various IRC 
channels of various OSS projects. IBM gives back primarily to linux in what 
serves them best as well, there is no denying that.  However it isn't too 
hard to see folks with @ibm.com addys on various OSS mailing lists (no 
offense, but more-so than seeing @apple.com email addys.)  The real appeal 
about IBM is their use of linux to continue their never ending vendetta 
against MSFT.  IBM spends money advertising linux.  This for linux users is 
a real holy grail.  I remember once my gf and I was walking through times 
square, and my gf pointed to a massive linux advertisement done by IBM.  I 
couldn't help but have the most massive smile ever, heh. (or the "linux 
will change the world" advert during the super-bowl). Or even IBM's CTO's 
calls for the company has a whole to use linux more and more (which sounds 
like some bullshit they're saying because it sounds damn good on paper and 
in the press, but then you speak to an employee of theirs and realize they 
really aren't kidding.) Or how IBM always mentions that their POWER/PPC970
(G5) fab is run entirely with linux (not even AIX, heh).  Or the 
*LEVEL-HEADED* (strong words for us linux folks, heh) articles IBM writes 
about Windows->linux migration, etc etc etc

>
> > The likes of redhat/suse (pre-Novell) are much smaller than Apple, but
> > I've
> > seem them do more for OSS in general which in turn effects the *BSDs.
>
> I still don't understand this question here- does RedHat do anything
> directly that doesn't affect their own strategy and market share for
> RedHat in enterprise?  What about SuSe, I mean, even before Novel, they
> had to make decisions that benefited SuSe by letting it's developers
> get feed- so asking them to get involved writing something outside of
> their vision would be a silly sidetrack which SuSe would have no
> reason/resources to do- have they stepped outside of this in some
> signifigant way which I have missed?

Yes, I suppose my arg about rh/suse was flawed.  It was flawed because what 
Suse/RH do spend on OSS is for themselves, and thanks to the nature of OSS, 
these changes are simply absorbed by the BSDs.  Sorry for the flawed 
argument.

Wow, this was one heck of a post, heh.  Responces are welcome, but i'm def 
not posting anything till tomorrow morning, heh

nite folks

Sunny Dubey



From bob  Sat Jun 26 23:16:34 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:16:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WWDC representation for NYCBUG
In-Reply-To: <200406262232.13774.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <ED54C89F-C275-11D8-B8C5-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<200406261943.31077.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<161480BC-C7CF-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200406262232.13774.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <64A18754-C7E8-11D8-B553-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 26, 2004, at 10:32 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Saturday 26 June 2004 08:15 pm, Sir Levy wrote:
>> Hi Sunny, All,
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>>> How about doing some stuff just for good-will ? Like sponsoring some
>>> of the
>>> great work Eirc Anholt does for the *BSDs in terms of Xorg? Right now
>>> *linux*fund pays him to do that ...
>>
>> Well, Sunny, I'm not really sure what you mean here.  Why would Apple
>> have any incentive to get involved with the Freedesktop project, when
>> part of it's business is selling a desktop of their own?
>>
>> If this question is merely flame-bait, pipe it to /dev/null, but if
>> this is a serious question in some context I'm missing here, please
>> tell me-
>
> I'm obviously aware of economics of how a corporation should be run and
> such.  I also fully understand that throwing money to OSS just to look 
> good
> isn't going to add real numbers to the ledger anytime soon.  However I 
> do
> know that even a million dollars per year is chump-change for Apple, 
> but is
> priceless to lots of OSS projects in terms of man hours and support.
>
> I bring up Eric Anholt up because he is one of the primary reasons BSD 
> has
> support for open source OpenGL.  Sure DRI/Mesa OpenGL is crappy, but 
> its
> something.  By having such a infrastructure existing on the *BSDs, it 
> adds
> value to the OSes as a whole.  By adding value, your project in turn 
> has
> the ability to attract people/developers to your OS.

His work, as you describe it, almost literally has no value whatsoever 
for Apple.  If they want to spend money to attract developers to their 
platform there's MUCH MUCH better ways to spend it.

For example, their new Apple Remote Desktop includes PostgreSQL for 
data storage and has VNC support (client and server), both of which are 
VERY clearly marketed 
<http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/resources.html>.  Work and 
marketing like this helps everyone.  I was frankly surprised that they 
used PostgreSQL and put a big 'ol logo on their page about it.  They 
used Metakit for data storage in the past without really acknowledging 
it (for Address Book, I don't know if this still stands.. probably not 
if they move to LDAP).  I think they're starting to do a better job 
with their OSS community relationships.. I mean hell, they gave me a 
ticket to their conference ;)

> Such an attraction is good because these people are going to be the 
> source
> of new development, bug reporting, etc ... all which go into a BSD 
> tree,
> which ends up in Apple's tree as well.

New development, bug reporting, etc. for parts of the BSD tree that 
Apple doesn't use at all?  Why should they care?

> However, in the status-quo, I see the BSD's largely putting up for
> themselves on their own*.  I've noticed that the problems the BSD's 
> face
> aren't shared about OS-X.    Lets suppose I'm a new and aspiring 
> developer
> who wants to jump into *nix .. yet I've noticed that *BSD doesn't 
> support
> bare 3d-accel for my video card, barely supports my wifi card, and the
> power management features of my computer (MSFT-centric ACPI) don't 
> work...
> why would I want to use *bsd when linux some-what supports the above
> features ?
>
> The above is the major reason why people would rather run OS-X/ibook 
> over
> BSD/laptop ...

The reason *BSD and Linux have shitty hardware support is because the 
hardware manufacturers don't like the platform for whatever reason 
(licensing, market, etc).  Apple probably has a hard enough time 
getting support from hardware manufacturers just for themselves :)

> The problem is Apple has defined the BSDs to be the base of its 
> flag-ship
> product yet IMO does not do outside the scope of whatever effects them
> directly.  I think Apple should do the minimal amounts to ensure that 
> their
> foundation projects does not ever lose ground.

That hardly makes any sense.  Apple doesn't budget enough money just to 
fund all of the BSD work that *does* benefit them, why the heck would 
they take money away from that and spend it elsewhere on projects that 
don't do anything for their platform?

> Fun fact: Apple has contributed some very cool patches back to the
>> XFree86 project, while they were in the process of creating an X86
>> distro of their own which interoperates with the Aqua finder.  In that
>> case, some OSS code came out of Apple, which they wrote while they 
>> were
>> doing something for themselves- (and which they re-distribute as OSS),
>> but I still don't see how Xorg fits into that picture...
>
> erm, I'm not here to question your word, nor make this tit-for-tat, 
> but as
> someone who follows former-Xfree86/Xorg developement, I can't remember 
> when
> Apple has ever contributed major work to the project (which is somewhat
> understandable cuz no one could really contrib to XFree86 until Xorg 
> came
> around, heh).

Their contributions only benefit OS X users, they offer a Quartz-based 
server and window manager that integrates very nicely with their 
WindowServer.

>
>> With that, Sunny: I'm curious to know similarly what has IBM done in
>> this area with Linux?  They are clearly using linux and providing a 
>> lot
>> of support to OSS, (much like Apple here), and are a large corporation
>> with business interests first, (much like Apple again).
>> Besides being good connoisseurs of Open Source, how has IBM given back
>> to OSS (directly or indirectly?), and what is the general Linux
>> developer opinion on IBM's practices?
>>
>
> IBM is definately loved by linux folks (especially with the whole SCUM 
> Group
> debacle).  I suppose this is the case because of the little things 
> that the
> various IBM branches do for linux.  On FreeNode, one can do "/who
> *.ibm.com" and find various IBM empolyees sitting in the various IRC
> channels of various OSS projects. IBM gives back primarily to linux in 
> what
> serves them best as well, there is no denying that.  However it isn't 
> too
> hard to see folks with @ibm.com addys on various OSS mailing lists (no
> offense, but more-so than seeing @apple.com email addys.)  The real 
> appeal
> about IBM is their use of linux to continue their never ending vendetta
> against MSFT.  IBM spends money advertising linux.  This for linux 
> users is
> a real holy grail.  I remember once my gf and I was walking through 
> times
> square, and my gf pointed to a massive linux advertisement done by 
> IBM.  I
> couldn't help but have the most massive smile ever, heh. (or the "linux
> will change the world" advert during the super-bowl). Or even IBM's 
> CTO's
> calls for the company has a whole to use linux more and more (which 
> sounds
> like some bullshit they're saying because it sounds damn good on paper 
> and
> in the press, but then you speak to an employee of theirs and realize 
> they
> really aren't kidding.) Or how IBM always mentions that their 
> POWER/PPC970
> (G5) fab is run entirely with linux (not even AIX, heh).  Or the
> *LEVEL-HEADED* (strong words for us linux folks, heh) articles IBM 
> writes
> about Windows->linux migration, etc etc etc

Apple is a MUCH MUCH smaller company than IBM.. and most of the Apple 
employees I know post under non-apple addresses, mostly for historical 
reasons, but they are DEFINITELY out there.

-bob
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From matador-gtabug  Sun Jun 27 01:57:30 2004
From: matador-gtabug (Matador)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:57:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
Message-ID: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>

Hello from us here with gtabug.ca -- Greater Toronto Area BSD UG

We usually meet the 3rd Tuesday of the month at a downtown pizza parlour.

And have lots of greasy meat filled/topping pizza w/ beer.

Cheers,

--Matador



From pete  Sun Jun 27 12:08:55 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:08:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
Message-ID: <40DEF117.80604@nomadlogic.org>

Matador wrote:

> Hello from us here with gtabug.ca -- Greater Toronto Area BSD UG
>
> We usually meet the 3rd Tuesday of the month at a downtown pizza parlour.
>
> And have lots of greasy meat filled/topping pizza w/ beer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Matador


hey i believe i got drunk with one of you guy's at BSDCan.  we tried to 
convince you all to take over the states and give us your healthcare 
system.  how's that going ;^)  seriously tho, how are things going for 
you all up there?  we have an IRC chan open on freenode.net you should 
swing by:
#nycbug

i like your site, who is that a pic of on your front page?

-pete




From jesse  Sun Jun 27 13:22:51 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:22:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
Message-ID: <9E22ED70-C85E-11D8-BA73-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>


On Jun 27, 2004, at 1:57 AM, Matador wrote:

> Hello from us here with gtabug.ca -- Greater Toronto Area BSD UG
>
> We usually meet the 3rd Tuesday of the month at a downtown pizza 
> parlour.
>
> And have lots of greasy meat filled/topping pizza w/ beer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Matador
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

That's a great acronym. However the thought of Canadian pizza doesn't 
get me too excited. I'm about to check out the website...

http://www.gtabug.ca




From mspitze1  Sun Jun 27 13:55:48 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:55:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd security analisys paper, ~150 pages
Message-ID: <20040627135548.01f619e5@bogomips.optonline.net>

For the people trying to make the case it might come in handy. I did a
quick read/skim through and it looked good and made a good case for
openbsd

Linux, OpenBSD, and Talisker: A Comparative Complexity Analysis
Download PDF
Kevin R. Smith (USN)
Masters Thesis, NPS, Monterey, California
Graduation date March 2002

http://cisr.nps.navy.mil/downloads/theses/02thesis_smith.pdf

marc



From ike  Mon Jun 28 01:01:19 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:01:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
Message-ID: <318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi All!

On Jun 27, 2004, at 1:57 AM, Matador wrote:

> Hello from us here with gtabug.ca -- Greater Toronto Area BSD UG
>
> We usually meet the 3rd Tuesday of the month at a downtown pizza 
> parlour.
>
> And have lots of greasy meat filled/topping pizza w/ beer.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Matador

/me raises the coffee mug northward this early morning!  If in Toronto, 
I definately wanna look yall' up- and if in NYC, email this list and 
we'll all hook up!!!!!!

btw- nice site, nice pics of Ken Thompson and Dennis Richtie on yall's 
homepage! (Pete- that answers that one)-  but what model is that sexy 
terminal next to your logo?

Rocket,
.ike




From george  Mon Jun 28 01:03:31 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 01:03:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
	<318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <7FEE7EE2-C8C0-11D8-9FCD-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


Sorry to jump into this late. . .

did we meet you at BSDCan?

Hello to Bosco, Milosh and all. . .

Very cool people we met. . .

g 




From pete  Mon Jun 28 07:50:27 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:50:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
	<318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <40E00603.2040408@nomadlogic.org>

Isaac Levy wrote:

>
> btw- nice site, nice pics of Ken Thompson and Dennis Richtie on yall's 
> homepage! (Pete- that answers that one)-  but what model is that sexy 
> terminal next to your logo?
>
ah yes, and now i feel real stupid for not knowing that ;)
-p




From ike  Mon Jun 28 08:13:39 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:13:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <40E00603.2040408@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
	<318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40E00603.2040408@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <96A4A542-C8FC-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 28, 2004, at 7:50 AM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>>
>> btw- nice site, nice pics of Ken Thompson and Dennis Richtie on 
>> yall's homepage! (Pete- that answers that one)-  but what model is 
>> that sexy terminal next to your logo?
>>
> ah yes, and now i feel real stupid for not knowing that ;)

Nah- don't feel so bad- I can't for the life of me remember the machine 
they were using in that picture...

Rocket-
.ike





From matador-gtabug  Mon Jun 28 12:44:55 2004
From: matador-gtabug (Matador)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:44:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
	<318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <40E04B07.7080706@matadorsplace.com>

Hi,

First off, I prefer quoting above old text.  So that's why I am writing 
here.  But anyway ...

I was in NYC one time, back in March.

That's when I first colo'd the gtabug.ca server in NYC.  We are actually 
hosted at Telehouse's 25 Broadway location.

To be honest, I sort of jumped in on this list with some alterior motives.

Incase the server dies for whatever reason, I was hoping someone would 
volunteer to be on a email/phone standby :)

But if I ever am in the NYC area, I'll give this list a post.

So with like > 12 million in NYC, how many you got on this list between 
lurkers+active talkers ?

We have ~110 on our list, with like 25-30 or so unique posters within a 
month.

We have had a few successful installathons here, with one netting over 
25 people showing up.

Anyway, take it easy !

 From Toronto,

--"Matador"

Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi All!
> 
> On Jun 27, 2004, at 1:57 AM, Matador wrote:
> 
>> Hello from us here with gtabug.ca -- Greater Toronto Area BSD UG
>>
>> We usually meet the 3rd Tuesday of the month at a downtown pizza parlour.
>>
>> And have lots of greasy meat filled/topping pizza w/ beer.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --Matador
> 
> 
> /me raises the coffee mug northward this early morning!  If in Toronto, 
> I definately wanna look yall' up- and if in NYC, email this list and 
> we'll all hook up!!!!!!
> 
> btw- nice site, nice pics of Ken Thompson and Dennis Richtie on yall's 
> homepage! (Pete- that answers that one)-  but what model is that sexy 
> terminal next to your logo?
> 
> Rocket,
> .ike
> 



From matador-gtabug  Mon Jun 28 12:49:09 2004
From: matador-gtabug (Matador)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:49:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re : 2 hour contract :)
Message-ID: <40E04C05.7020602@matadorsplace.com>

Hi,

I figured I'd post this seperate :)

I got 2 hard drives to be installed, in our gtabug server.

Anyone wanna do it ? Again, its located at 25 Broadway at Telehouse. 
5th Floor.

If your up for it, let me know.

Not sure if it should be close to free, because its "BUG" related, but I 
can compensate up to USD$50 :)

I got a guy who can do it for USD$60, but figure support the local BUG.

Cheers,

--Matador



From george  Mon Jun 28 16:10:30 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:10:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] usenix. . .
Message-ID: <340DEA48-C93F-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Jesse and me are at USENIX. . .hanging out at the BSDMall table. . .

We're both on irc.freenode.net if anyone's around. ..

g




From ike  Mon Jun 28 16:53:23 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:53:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re : 2 hour contract :)
In-Reply-To: <40E04C05.7020602@matadorsplace.com>
References: <40E04C05.7020602@matadorsplace.com>
Message-ID: <31D1FCD2-C945-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Matador,

How soon do you need this done?  I can contribute BUG style and pull it 
off, but I've got a crazy schedule this week- (am looking for work, 
interviews etc...), so I've got weird free moments here...

What's your parameters for having the drives installed?  Do you need 
data synced?  RAID madness?  Or is this a sweet simple hot-swap plug-in 
task?

Rocket,
.ike





On Jun 28, 2004, at 12:49 PM, Matador wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I figured I'd post this seperate :)
>
> I got 2 hard drives to be installed, in our gtabug server.
>
> Anyone wanna do it ? Again, its located at 25 Broadway at Telehouse. 
> 5th Floor.
>
> If your up for it, let me know.
>
> Not sure if it should be close to free, because its "BUG" related, but 
> I can compensate up to USD$50 :)
>
> I got a guy who can do it for USD$60, but figure support the local BUG.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --Matador
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>




From ike  Mon Jun 28 18:05:23 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:05:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
Message-ID: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

I was wondering if anyone had the skinny on some good starter resources 
for using SNMP.  I've got some hardware I want to monitor, (starting 
with my DSL router and a switch), and want to dive into SNMP carefully 
and securely.

I hate to bug the list with something which may be so trivial, but 
there's just SOOOO much SNMP resources out there, and I'm a bit 
overloaded/confused by it all...

Can anyone toss me some URL bones?

Rocket-
.ike




From george  Mon Jun 28 18:19:17 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:19:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
In-Reply-To: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 28, 2004, at 6:05 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> I was wondering if anyone had the skinny on some good starter 
> resources for using SNMP.  I've got some hardware I want to monitor, 
> (starting with my DSL router and a switch), and want to dive into SNMP 
> carefully and securely.
>
> I hate to bug the list with something which may be so trivial, but 
> there's just SOOOO much SNMP resources out there, and I'm a bit 
> overloaded/confused by it all...
>
> Can anyone toss me some URL bones?
>

/net/net-snmp
make install

good start. . .

that booked we both picked up at lesmuug is very useful . .

g




From jesse  Mon Jun 28 18:28:48 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:28:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
In-Reply-To: <31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>


On Jun 28, 2004, at 6:19 PM, G.Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Jun 28, 2004, at 6:05 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone had the skinny on some good starter 
>> resources for using SNMP.  I've got some hardware I want to monitor, 
>> (starting with my DSL router and a switch), and want to dive into 
>> SNMP carefully and securely.
>>
>> I hate to bug the list with something which may be so trivial, but 
>> there's just SOOOO much SNMP resources out there, and I'm a bit 
>> overloaded/confused by it all...
>>
>> Can anyone toss me some URL bones?
>>
>
> /net/net-snmp
> make install
>
> good start. . .
>
> that booked we both picked up at lesmuug is very useful . .
>
> g
>
>

grab 'snmpwalk' and use 'public' as the community string on almost 
anyone's router (your NAT box?) and you'll have something to work with




From ike  Mon Jun 28 18:32:41 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:32:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
In-Reply-To: <8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
References: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <10F3C8A8-C953-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 28, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Jesse Callaway wrote:

>>> Can anyone toss me some URL bones?
>>>
>>
>> /net/net-snmp
>> make install
>>
>> good start. . .

just the jump off I was looking for- I can happily read the man pages, 
thanks.

>>
>> that booked we both picked up at lesmuug is very useful . .

Dig- but the beginning SNMP section is not clicking- perhaps I just 
have too much on the brain today...

>>
>> g
>>
>>
>
> grab 'snmpwalk' and use 'public' as the community string on almost 
> anyone's router (your NAT box?) and you'll have something to work with

hrm...  ok- snmpwalk sounds like a friendly tool somehow...  making a 
small adventure this evening...

Rocket-
.ike





From jesse  Mon Jun 28 18:53:35 2004
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:53:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
In-Reply-To: <10F3C8A8-C953-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
	<10F3C8A8-C953-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <FC5143DC-C955-11D8-8F23-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>

>
> hrm...  ok- snmpwalk sounds like a friendly tool somehow...  making a 
> small adventure this evening...
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>


getters and setters:   OID = "some_value"

or what's the value of this OID

then there's who can get what and who can set what.... that's about as 
far as I've gotten

So on most routers 'public' is allowed read-only access to a certain 
part of the data.




From mspitze1  Mon Jun 28 21:07:15 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:07:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
In-Reply-To: <8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
References: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <20040628210715.7976da8f@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:28:48 -0400
Jesse Callaway <jesse at theholymountain.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 28, 2004, at 6:19 PM, G.Rosamond wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Jun 28, 2004, at 6:05 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> >
> >> Hey All,
> >>
> >> I was wondering if anyone had the skinny on some good starter 
> >> resources for using SNMP.  I've got some hardware I want to
> >monitor, > (starting with my DSL router and a switch), and want to
> >dive into > SNMP carefully and securely.
> >>
> >> I hate to bug the list with something which may be so trivial, but 
> >> there's just SOOOO much SNMP resources out there, and I'm a bit 
> >> overloaded/confused by it all...
> >>
> >> Can anyone toss me some URL bones?
> >>
> >
> > /net/net-snmp
> > make install
> >
> > good start. . .
> >
> > that booked we both picked up at lesmuug is very useful . .
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> 
> grab 'snmpwalk' and use 'public' as the community string on almost 
> anyone's router (your NAT box?) and you'll have something to work with

It is sad to see some things never change.

I would also recommend net-snmp.sf.net and the following book, it is
kinda
deep though:

SNMP, SNMPv2, SNMPv3, and RMON 1 and 2 (3rd Edition)

by Stallings

marc

ps the real trick to snmp is understanding the mibs, much more so then
the tools.

marc
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From mspitze1  Mon Jun 28 21:22:40 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:22:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SNMP for knowledgable newcomers
In-Reply-To: <20040628210715.7976da8f@bogomips.optonline.net>
References: <40AB3E3F-C94F-11D8-923C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<31E31B46-C951-11D8-B682-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8673D6A5-C952-11D8-84CC-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com>
	<20040628210715.7976da8f@bogomips.optonline.net>
Message-ID: <20040628212240.7c3fd49b@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:07:15 -0400
Marc Spitzer <mspitze1 at optonline.net> wrote:

> 
> ps the real trick to snmp is understanding the mibs, much more so then
> the tools.
> 
> marc

also I forgot to mention snmp-table, just man it.  It is much nicer
then snmp walk for much of what is useful in snmp.

pps I really like scotty and tcl for this stuff.

marc



From lists  Tue Jun 29 05:39:47 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 05:39:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dragonfly
Message-ID: <40E138E3.7020701@genoverly.net>

If you didn't already hear..

The DragonFly 1.0-RC1 SNAP is now Ready! You can download the release 
candidate via: dfly-1.0RC1.iso.gz (2004-06-28).

http://www.dragonflybsd.org/main/download.cgi

Michael



From pete  Tue Jun 29 11:22:13 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:22:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] arp questions
Message-ID: <40E18925.1090907@nomadlogic.org>

hey all,
    i've got a question regarding ARP on FreeBSD 4.10.  I have two 
machines (archiver and homer).  each machine has two interfaces, one on 
our 100Base-T LAN and another on our seperate Gig-E LAN.  Each interface 
is given a different name, so the gig-e interface for homer is 
gate-homer (don't ask why we use gate-hostname wierd SGI thing...).  
Anyway when I perform a large NFS copy via the "gate" interfaces is get 
this error in my syslog:

arp: 192.169.3.10 is on em0 but got reply from xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:ee on fxp0
(let's pretend that's a valid MAC address, the last two bits are the 
only interesting part anyway).

sure enough the MAC address that ends in :ee is the MAC addr. for the 
100Base-T connection on the NFS server, not the mounted gig-e 
interface.  wierd eh?  So what's happening, does anyone have an idea?


Cheers,
    Pete Wright


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From okan  Tue Jun 29 13:34:52 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:34:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] arp questions
In-Reply-To: <40E18925.1090907@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40E18925.1090907@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20040629173452.GB34305@yinaska.pair.com>

On Tue 2004.06.29 at 11:22 -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
> hey all,
>    i've got a question regarding ARP on FreeBSD 4.10.  I have two 
> machines (archiver and homer).  each machine has two interfaces, one on 
> our 100Base-T LAN and another on our seperate Gig-E LAN.  Each interface 
> is given a different name, so the gig-e interface for homer is 
> gate-homer (don't ask why we use gate-hostname wierd SGI thing...).  
> Anyway when I perform a large NFS copy via the "gate" interfaces is get 
> this error in my syslog:
> 
> arp: 192.169.3.10 is on em0 but got reply from xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:ee on fxp0
> (let's pretend that's a valid MAC address, the last two bits are the 
> only interesting part anyway).

uhm, are you positive that the two networks are not touching each
other?  it looks like the two networks are bridged without
spanning-tree. unless of course, you have say a sun box with multiple
nics on the two netowrks, all with the same mac address; that works
fine, but if other boxes are on the same networks in the same fashion, 
you can run into arp issues.

> sure enough the MAC address that ends in :ee is the MAC addr. for the 
> 100Base-T connection on the NFS server, not the mounted gig-e 
> interface.  wierd eh?  So what's happening, does anyone have an idea?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
>    Pete Wright
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~~~oO00Oo~~~
> Pete Wright
> email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
> mobile: 917.415.9866
> web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From pete  Tue Jun 29 14:31:36 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:31:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] arp questions
In-Reply-To: <20040629173452.GB34305@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <40E18925.1090907@nomadlogic.org>
	<20040629173452.GB34305@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <40E1B588.2030509@nomadlogic.org>

Okan Demirmen wrote:

>On Tue 2004.06.29 at 11:22 -0400, Pete Wright wrote:
>  
>
>>hey all,
>>   i've got a question regarding ARP on FreeBSD 4.10.  I have two 
>>machines (archiver and homer).  each machine has two interfaces, one on 
>>our 100Base-T LAN and another on our seperate Gig-E LAN.  Each interface 
>>is given a different name, so the gig-e interface for homer is 
>>gate-homer (don't ask why we use gate-hostname wierd SGI thing...).  
>>Anyway when I perform a large NFS copy via the "gate" interfaces is get 
>>this error in my syslog:
>>
>>arp: 192.169.3.10 is on em0 but got reply from xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:ee on fxp0
>>(let's pretend that's a valid MAC address, the last two bits are the 
>>only interesting part anyway).
>>    
>>
>
>uhm, are you positive that the two networks are not touching each
>other?  it looks like the two networks are bridged without
>spanning-tree. unless of course, you have say a sun box with multiple
>nics on the two netowrks, all with the same mac address; that works
>fine, but if other boxes are on the same networks in the same fashion, 
>you can run into arp issues.
>
>  
>

nope they are not touching.  the gig-e network does not even route to 
the internet, only the 100base-T one does.  each nic does have a 
different MAC address as well.  I forgot to mention that the NFS server 
in this case is a Debian gnu/linux box(2.4.26+XFS), the client is 
FreeBSD 4.10.  I am starting to suspect that there may be an issue with 
the Debian box, I do not run into this issue with any of my SGI or other 
BSD boxen on the gig-e network.

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From mlists  Tue Jun 29 21:26:59 2004
From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:26:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello from Toronto !
In-Reply-To: <96A4A542-C8FC-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <40DE61CA.6010602@matadorsplace.com>
	<318BBCA8-C8C0-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<40E00603.2040408@nomadlogic.org>
	<96A4A542-C8FC-11D8-AF5D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20040630012659.GI2411@bizintegrators.com>

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 08:13:39AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
> On Jun 28, 2004, at 7:50 AM, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> >Isaac Levy wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>btw- nice site, nice pics of Ken Thompson and Dennis Richtie on 
> >>yall's homepage! (Pete- that answers that one)-  but what model is 
> >>that sexy terminal next to your logo?
> >>
> >ah yes, and now i feel real stupid for not knowing that ;)
> 
> Nah- don't feel so bad- I can't for the life of me remember the machine 
> they were using in that picture...
> 

That is a PDP-11.



From marco  Wed Jun 30 11:24:26 2004
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:24:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
Message-ID: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>

Isn't that CACERT meeting real soon? 

Shouldn't we advertise it a bit?

-- 
Marco



From george  Wed Jun 30 11:28:35 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:28:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
In-Reply-To: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
Message-ID: <26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 30, 2004, at 11:24 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> Isn't that CACERT meeting real soon?
>
> Shouldn't we advertise it a bit?
>
> -- 
>

Yup. . .

the future events page has been updated for it. . .

i'll send out an official announce soon.

g




From sunny-ml  Wed Jun 30 11:50:32 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:50:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
In-Reply-To: <26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
	<26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <200406301150.32400.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 30 June 2004 11:28 am, G.Rosamond wrote:
> On Jun 30, 2004, at 11:24 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:
> > Isn't that CACERT meeting real soon?
> >
> > Shouldn't we advertise it a bit?
> >
> > --
>
> Yup. . .
>
> the future events page has been updated for it. . .
>
> i'll send out an official announce soon.

Ike never posted my directions, shall I send them to u ?

Sunny Dubey



From tux  Wed Jun 30 11:57:01 2004
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:57:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
Message-ID: <003201c45eba$e214f9d0$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

> Isn't that CACERT meeting real soon?

Marco, get outta my head :P

I should be approved as an Assurer within the next few days (if the mail
gets through...) so if we have enough assurers at the meeting, everyone who
attends should be good to go when they leave.

Wasn't the meeting scheduled for Monday?  I don't recall the time/place,
though.

-Kevin






From hans  Wed Jun 30 12:08:26 2004
From: hans (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:08:26 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702D2543D@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>


> Wasn't the meeting scheduled for Monday?  I don't recall the 
> time/place, though.

http://nycbug.org/futureevents.html

H




From sunny-ml  Wed Jun 30 12:52:49 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:52:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
In-Reply-To: <200406301150.32400.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
	<26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<200406301150.32400.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <200406301252.49994.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 30 June 2004 11:50 am, Sunny Dubey wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 June 2004 11:28 am, G.Rosamond wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 2004, at 11:24 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:
> > > Isn't that CACERT meeting real soon?
> > >
> > > Shouldn't we advertise it a bit?
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > Yup. . .
> >
> > the future events page has been updated for it. . .
> >
> > i'll send out an official announce soon.
>
> Ike never posted my directions, shall I send them to u ?

Doh, I forgot to post them to the list, heh

Directions:

These are *approximate* directions!

Subway:

R/W: *RECOMMENDED*  Take the R/W lines to the "Prince st" station.  Exit the 
train station and walk east on Prince st.

B/D/F/V:  Take B/D/F/V lines to "Broadway-Lafayette st".  Walk east on 
Houston st until you hit Broadway.  Walk south on Broadway for a single 
block to Prince st.  Walk east on Prince st.

C/E:  Take C/E lines to "Spring st".  Walk west on Spring st, until you hit 
West-Broadway.  Walk north on West-Boardway for a single block to Prince 
st.  Once on Prince st, walk west.

Bus:

M1:  Take either northbound, or southbound buses, and try to get off as 
close as possible to Prince st.  You will need to walk east on Prince st.

M5/M21:  Take bus eastward bound on Houston St.  get off as near as possible 
to Greene St, and simply walk south a single block to Prince st.

M6:  Take either northbound/southbound buses, and get off as close as 
possible to Prince St.  If taking the northbound bus you will need to walk 
west on Prince st.  If taking southbound Prince st, you will need to walk 
east on Prince st.



From tux  Wed Jun 30 13:02:42 2004
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:02:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8702D2543D@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net>
Message-ID: <003001c45ec4$0ef33f80$f700a8c0@hephaestus>

Thanks :)  I'd have remembered that on my own after I was awake ...

> Wasn't the meeting scheduled for Monday?  I don't recall the 
> time/place, though.

http://nycbug.org/futureevents.html

H






From kit  Wed Jun 30 13:42:19 2004
From: kit (Kit Halsted)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:42:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
In-Reply-To: <200406301252.49994.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
	<26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<200406301150.32400.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<200406301252.49994.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <p06002091bd08aa80709a@[10.0.1.2]>

At 12:52 PM -0400 6/30/04, Sunny Dubey wrote:

<...>
>These are *approximate* directions!
>
>Subway:
>
>R/W: *RECOMMENDED*  Take the R/W lines to the "Prince st" station.  Exit the
>train station and walk east on Prince st.
>
>B/D/F/V:  Take B/D/F/V lines to "Broadway-Lafayette st".  Walk east on
>Houston st until you hit Broadway.  Walk south on Broadway for a single
>block to Prince st.  Walk east on Prince st.
>
>C/E:  Take C/E lines to "Spring st".  Walk west on Spring st, until you hit
>West-Broadway.  Walk north on West-Boardway for a single block to Prince
>st.  Once on Prince st, walk west.

Umm, these directions all point *away* from the same place... Walk 
east from the east side & west from the west side?

Is this the Apple store? If so, it's 2 blocks west of Broadway on Prince.

http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/

-Kit
-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  -Benjamin Franklin

"...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
(...if you would have peace, be prepared for war)  -Flavius Vegetius Renatus



From george  Wed Jun 30 14:39:58 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:39:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
In-Reply-To: <p06002091bd08aa80709a@[10.0.1.2]>
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
	<26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<200406301150.32400.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<200406301252.49994.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<p06002091bd08aa80709a@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <E3238ED4-CAC4-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jun 30, 2004, at 1:42 PM, Kit Halsted wrote:

> At 12:52 PM -0400 6/30/04, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>
> <...>
>> These are *approximate* directions!
>

<SNIP>

> Umm, these directions all point *away* from the same place... Walk 
> east from the east side & west from the west side?
>
> Is this the Apple store? If so, it's 2 blocks west of Broadway on 
> Prince.
>
> http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/
>
> -Kit
> -- 

Thanks Kit. . .that's also the link in the future events section of the 
site. . .

Talked to Duane a bit the past few days. . .he's bringing a mess of 
shirts down. . .

Should be a really good step forward for the project that puts certs in 
the hands of everyone. . .

Enough "expired cert" dialog boxes. . .

This meeting is obviously of interest for all those www developers out 
there. . .

g




From truk  Wed Jun 30 15:57:08 2004
From: truk (Kurt Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:57:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Status of native jdk's on OpenBSD
Message-ID: <010c01c45edc$6d10a540$290110ac@truk>

Before I went on vacation I was asked about the native jdk's
on OpenBSD. The current status is that OpenBSD has 1.3 
working in classic vm, green threads only. 

After the basic jdk was committed, I started working on 
getting native threads working (classic vm, native threads). 
tedu@ started working on getting hotspot going too. He 
posted his patches to ports@ and I've picked up where 
he left off. 

The classic vm with native threads is working ok right
now (i.e. -native). There are some issues like tomcat 
crashes it and the SwingSet2 demo app has a random 
segfault.

$ java -native -version 
java version "1.3.1-p9"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.3.1-p9-truk-2004-06-28-15:04)
Classic VM (build 1.3.1-p9-truk-2004-06-28-15:04, native threads, nojit)

Just recently I've made some more progress with hotspot. 
I ported some missing functionality in dlsym from FreeBSD.
This has enabled hotspot to get fully initialized, but still 
crashes when executing the java demos. 

$ java -client -version
java version "1.3.1-p9"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.3.1-p9-truk-2004-06-28-15:04)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build truk-2004-06-29-15:32, mixed mode)
$ java -server -version 
java version "1.3.1-p9"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.3.1-p9-truk-2004-06-28-15:04)
Java HotSpot(TM) Server VM (build truk-2004-06-29-15:32, mixed mode)

I'm also investigating if gcc must be configured with
--enable-threads=posix to get a thread safe libstdc++.
It is quite possible hotspot may have to wait until gcc
obtains this feature on OpenBSD.

Once 1.3 is working halfway decently with hotspot, a 1.4
port is possible. Although changes will likely be needed to 
replace sigcontext with ucontext in OpenBSD signal handlers.

-Kurt



From pete  Wed Jun 30 17:26:35 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:26:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting
Message-ID: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org>

Sorry this is apple related, but very interesting non-the-less:

http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous/

A quote:
"Rendezvous technology is also available on various POSIX platforms, 
including Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD."

...to bad they didn't list them alphabetically :(

-p


-- 
~~~oO00Oo~~~
Pete Wright
email:  pete at nomadlogic.org
mobile: 917.415.9866
web:    www.nomadlogic.org/~pete




From bob  Wed Jun 30 16:55:42 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:55:42 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CACERTs
In-Reply-To: <E3238ED4-CAC4-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <20040630152426.GB11336@metm.org>
	<26FE5D96-CAAA-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<200406301150.32400.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<200406301252.49994.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<p06002091bd08aa80709a@[10.0.1.2]>
	<E3238ED4-CAC4-11D8-BCE0-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <D9E2B852-CAD7-11D8-B8CC-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Jun 30, 2004, at 11:39 AM, G.Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Jun 30, 2004, at 1:42 PM, Kit Halsted wrote:
>
>> At 12:52 PM -0400 6/30/04, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>>
>> <...>
>>> These are *approximate* directions!
>>
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> Umm, these directions all point *away* from the same place... Walk 
>> east from the east side & west from the west side?
>>
>> Is this the Apple store? If so, it's 2 blocks west of Broadway on 
>> Prince.
>>
>> http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/
>
> Thanks Kit. . .that's also the link in the future events section of 
> the site. . .
>
> Talked to Duane a bit the past few days. . .he's bringing a mess of 
> shirts down. . .
>
> Should be a really good step forward for the project that puts certs 
> in the hands of everyone. . .
>
> Enough "expired cert" dialog boxes. . .
>
> This meeting is obviously of interest for all those www developers out 
> there. . .

Speaking of cert dialog boxes, the CA Cert guys need to talk to Apple.  
They are willing to include more certs into their X509Anchors for 10.4.

-bob
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From george  Wed Jun 30 18:51:26 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:51:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] brief USENIX report
Message-ID: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Well, Jesse and I have been in Boston at USENIX since early Monday 
afternoon.

Jesse is heading back to NYC tonight, and I'll be here until Friday.

We have only some a little time in the meetings.  Last nights meeting 
by Kirk McKusick and Pete Salus about the history of UNIX was the only 
full meeting I have personally attended so far. . .and it was 
brilliant.  Lots of stuff on the earlier notions of 'open source' 
development with programs such as vi, the legal BSD battles, etc.

We have gotten to know so so many people.  Great conversations with 
Michael Lucas, Eric Allman, Scott Long of FBSD, Bosco of FBSD, Andrew 
who lives in Queens and is a NetBSD developer. . .so many very cool 
people.

Since we were in the publisher's area with BSDMall/DN, we were with 
Addison Wesley, ORA and No Starch.  We had many extended discussions 
with all of the publishers.

We hopefully can have Kirk McKusick do a special meeting in October, 
when he's in the city. . .it will coincide with the updating of The 
Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System. . .being 
released by Addison Wesley in the next couple of months.

Everyone who has an iBook or a PowerBook now has a Daemon sticker. . 
.of course.

Jesse spent some quality time with Daryl, a NetBSD developer, trying to 
dual boot his OSX PowerBook with NetBSD, and is just caught up with 
keyboard issues.

Anyway, sorry that more of you couldn't make it, but we'll be sure to 
fill you in. . .We have a box of the USENIX magazines for distribution 
at the next meeting. . .

g




From paul  Wed Jun 30 23:50:11 2004
From: paul (Paul Dlug)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:50:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting
In-Reply-To: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org>
References: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <C0BCBCF7-CB11-11D8-8AD3-000A95C8C6BA@aps.org>

On Jun 30, 2004, at 5:26 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> Sorry this is apple related, but very interesting non-the-less:
>
> http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous/
>
> A quote:
> "Rendezvous technology is also available on various POSIX platforms, 
> including Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD."

It's not from Apple but rendezvous has been available for a while:

http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl/

It's in the FreeBSD ports collection: net/howl

I've used it successfully for a while, there's also a perl module: 
net/p5-Net-Rendezvous

I'm not aware of any major applications or OS distributions including 
this functionality yet. It's not really interesting until someone does 
the work to integrate it so you can connect FreeBSD box and a Mac and 
just have them start talking.