From sunny-ml Wed Sep 1 09:10:45 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:10:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Re: Reverse SSH tunelling In-Reply-To: <20040831043131.GA22791@trot.local> References: <20040831043131.GA22791@trot.local> Message-ID: <200409010910.45986.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 31 August 2004 00:31, George Georgalis wrote: > Saw this on the focus linux list today.... > > > http://chownat.lucidx.com/ > chownat, pronounced "chone nat", allows two peers behind two separate > NATs with NO port forwarding and NO DMZ setup on their routers to > directly communicate with each other. > > > comes with perl source and windows binaries.... haven't tried it but I'm > guessing it works like it says it does... > > // George maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find a license for the software anywhere. (on the site or in the code) Sunny Dubey From george Wed Sep 1 10:11:57 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:11:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Kirk McKusick meeting Message-ID: I am sorting out the details for the Kirk McKusick meeting on October 16th. For those who don't know, Kirk is one of the critical people dating back to the original BSD days in the 1970's, and has just rereleased his book on "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System." It is a Saturday, and was wondering about ideas for a location. I don't think the Apple Store on Prince should be our first choice, as it's a bit too noisy. . . Any ideas? Obviously, some place that holds at least 50 or 60 people will be key. . . Mr. Genoverly: maybe you could speak to AW about getting a Barnes and Nobles. g From dan Wed Sep 1 10:20:44 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Kirk McKusick meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040901101702.U48577@xeon.unixathome.org> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > I am sorting out the details for the Kirk McKusick meeting on October > 16th. For those who don't know, Kirk is one of the critical people > dating back to the original BSD days in the 1970's, and has just > rereleased his book on "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD > Operating System." I think you're thinking of another book "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4 BSD Operating System". The new book is a new book. > Mr. Genoverly: maybe you could speak to AW about getting a Barnes and > Nobles. A book launch in a book store sounds like a good idea. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From mlists Wed Sep 1 10:55:24 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:55:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Kirk McKusick meeting In-Reply-To: <20040901101702.U48577@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040901101702.U48577@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: <20040901145524.GW10310@bizintegrators.com> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:20:44AM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > I am sorting out the details for the Kirk McKusick meeting on October > > 16th. For those who don't know, Kirk is one of the critical people > > dating back to the original BSD days in the 1970's, and has just > > rereleased his book on "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD > > Operating System." > > I think you're thinking of another book "The Design and Implementation of > the 4.4 BSD Operating System". The new book is a new book. It looks like he was part of writing both. From george Wed Sep 1 10:57:18 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:57:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Kirk McKusick meeting In-Reply-To: <20040901145524.GW10310@bizintegrators.com> References: <20040901101702.U48577@xeon.unixathome.org> <20040901145524.GW10310@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <37FFC038-FC27-11D8-8B04-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Sep 1, 2004, at 10:55 AM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:20:44AM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: >> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>> I am sorting out the details for the Kirk McKusick meeting on October >>> 16th. For those who don't know, Kirk is one of the critical people >>> dating back to the original BSD days in the 1970's, and has just >>> rereleased his book on "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD >>> Operating System." >> >> I think you're thinking of another book "The Design and >> Implementation of >> the 4.4 BSD Operating System". The new book is a new book. > > It looks like he was part of writing both. Yes, I know it's a different book, but it's the same type of book and the title is similar. Anyway, ideas on meeting space? Afternoon or in the pm. . .remember it's a Saturday. g From dan Wed Sep 1 11:00:10 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Kirk McKusick meeting In-Reply-To: <20040901145524.GW10310@bizintegrators.com> References: <20040901101702.U48577@xeon.unixathome.org> <20040901145524.GW10310@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <20040901105936.M48577@xeon.unixathome.org> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 10:20:44AM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > > > I am sorting out the details for the Kirk McKusick meeting on October > > > 16th. For those who don't know, Kirk is one of the critical people > > > dating back to the original BSD days in the 1970's, and has just > > > rereleased his book on "The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD > > > Operating System." > > > > I think you're thinking of another book "The Design and Implementation of > > the 4.4 BSD Operating System". The new book is a new book. > > It looks like he was part of writing both. Yes, he definitely was. Sorry for not saying that. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From joshmccormack Wed Sep 1 20:34:34 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:34:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Thinkpad 560x running OpenBSD for sale -- $150 Message-ID: <41366A9A.6090002@travelersdiary.com> I loaded OpenBSD on my Thinkpad 560x by network install without problem, figured out how to keep the sleep mode from freezing an X session, and installed a bunch of packages and a jdk port. At which point I figured out that I'm just going to need another rig for Java development. Thinkpad 560x (I think it's a Pentium 233, 64 megs of RAM and a 4 gig HD). 2 extra batteries, port replicator, external floppy drive, 56K PCI card modem and PCI network card, charger and case. Minor plastic damage at two spots on the screen hinge that don't affect anything. Has also run Debian and Windows 98. $150 From george Wed Sep 1 22:13:59 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:13:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] the new site. . . Message-ID: We are at the bar after Ike's awesome meeting on Jails, and of course, as the bar has does have nice wifi access, we have managed to put up the new site. . . Therefore, the dev site has been migrated, and we are finally LIVE with the new site. Now we need more content. Time to get the documentation, software and book reviews, etc, up. g From sunny-ml Wed Sep 1 22:34:37 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:34:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] the new site. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409012234.37697.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 01 September 2004 22:13, G.Rosamond wrote: > We are at the bar after Ike's awesome meeting on Jails, and of course, > as the bar has does have nice wifi access, we have managed to put up > the new site. . . > > Therefore, the dev site has been migrated, and we are finally LIVE with > the new site. > > Now we need more content. Time to get the documentation, software and > book reviews, etc, up. the dmesg thing is down ? people are stealing my Netbsd toaster dmesg! haha Sunny Dubey From jeff.knight Thu Sep 2 00:15:51 2004 From: jeff.knight (Jeff Knight) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:15:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] the new site. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ca9ba9104090121156cbb0edf@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:13:59 -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: > We are at the bar after Ike's awesome meeting on Jails, and of course, > as the bar has does have nice wifi access, we have managed to put up > the new site. . . Migrating dev to live from a bar seems like such a great idea, I wonder why everybody doesn't do it that way... -- Jeff Knight Jeff.Knight at gmail.com From bob Thu Sep 2 00:18:39 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:18:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] the new site. . . In-Reply-To: <2ca9ba9104090121156cbb0edf@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ca9ba9104090121156cbb0edf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2AD25BD2-FC97-11D8-865B-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Sep 2, 2004, at 12:15 AM, Jeff Knight wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:13:59 -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: >> We are at the bar after Ike's awesome meeting on Jails, and of course, >> as the bar has does have nice wifi access, we have managed to put up >> the new site. . . > > Migrating dev to live from a bar seems like such a great idea, I > wonder why everybody doesn't do it that way... From a bar, just about everything seems like a great idea :) -bob From george Thu Sep 2 02:05:30 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:05:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Kvikkalkul Programming Language Message-ID: <20040902060530.GA24491@trot.local> --02:04:00-- http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/%7Ekamikaze/doc/kvik.html => `-' Resolving kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu... 129.101.191.123 Connecting to kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu[129.101.191.123]:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK Length: 17,875 [text/html] The Kvikkalkul Programming Language

The Kvikkalkul Programming Language

Article 41828 of alt.folklore.computers:
Message-ID: <081301Z20101994 at anon.penet.fi>
From: an31517 at anon.penet.fi
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:06:43 UTC
Subject: REPOST: kvikkalkul
Lines: 410


THE KVIKKALKUL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE

Note: this message contains top secret information of the Swedish Navy.
      Possession of this information in Sweden can (and will in most cases)
      lead to Capital Punishment. DO NOT DISTRIBUTE THIS INFORMATION
      TO SWEDEN!!! 
      
INTRODUCTION

When I worked for the Swedish Navy in 1957 as a programmer, my task was to
write programs for the SABINA computer, one of the first transistorised
computers in the world, manufactured by SAAB for use on Swedish submarines.
The computer was located on a test facility in Karlskrona, the Swedish 
Navy base. All programming was done in a funky language called 'kvikkalkul',
a language that makes Assembler (or even INTERCAL) look friendly. 
The mere exis
    0K .tence of SABINA and the programming language 'kvikkalkul' was and
still is top secret. Other top secrets of that age leaked into publicity long
ago, but this one is still preserved. Until now.  

Apart from real-time submarine applications such as guided torpedo control, I
did an accounting package in kvikkalkul as well. 

THE CHARACTER SET

Kvikkalkul was typed on Baudot encoded teletype machines. Programs were
stored on paper tape. As you might know, Baudot is a five bit code. The
machine can be in two modes, the 'letters' mode and the 'figures' mode.
In 'letters' mode you have the 26 letter symbols, in 'figures' mode you have
the ten digits and some punctuation marks. The codes to switch to the 'letters'
or 'figures' mode, the space, the linefeed and carriage return codes are
available in both modes. Kvikkalkul used symbols from the 'figures' mode
exclusively, therefore it had no letters. If you typed letters in your program
they were interpreted as the corresponding 'figures' mode symbols. Kvikkalkul
had no comments or text literals either; there were no letters in the
language. Period.

The available symbols were: CR/LF, Space, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,
period(.), comma(,), quote("), colon(:), dash(-), slash(/) and the left and right
parentheses ( and ). 

Each statement was on a separate line. 

THE NUMBER SYSTEM

The only data type in kvikkalkul was the signed fixed point fractional number.
The reason for this was. that the precision of numbers could be extended without
breaking existing programs. Kvikkalkul was designed for such things as real
time control, so this seemed sensible. The downside was that you had no 
integers or whatever other data type. Even arrays were indexed with
fractional numbers.

The minimum precision you could rely on was 15 bits. This is a sign bit and
14 significant fractional bits. The representation was one's complement.
The data word with all bits set (minus zero) denoted overflow. There were
16383 positive numbers, 0 and 16383 negative numbers. The minimum number
was a bit higher than -1 and the maximum number was a bit lower than 1.  
You didn't have numbers greater than 1, even not 1 itself. 

Every operation that would produce a result outside the range (-1,1)
would return the special overflow value with all bits set.

Numbers were entered as decimal fractions, starting with a comma (the Swedish
representation for decimal point).  e.g. ,125 denotes 1/8.

Kvikkalkul had the following operators

Assignment/pointer
(-  Assignment
-)  Points to
((  Previous
))  Next

Arithmetic
-/- Plus
  --  Minus
)(  Times
-:- Divide
-   Unary Minus

Relational
::  Equal
:/: Not Equal  
(   Less
)   Greater
(:  Less or Equal
):  Greater or Equal

Assignment statements consisted of an object, the assignment operator and
an expression. The expression consisted of one operand or two operands
separated by an arithmetic oper.ator. An operand was either a number or
an object with an optional unary minus operator. 
Below are two assignment statements

.9 (- ,5
.8 (- .9 )( -,33333333

The first assigns 1/2 to register 9, the second one multiplies register 9 by 
1/3 and assigns that to register 8. 


THE PROGRAM OBJECTS

The kvikkalkul objects are registers, data pointers, program pointers
and channels. They are denoted by a special symbol followed by a
digit.

There are 10 objects of each type, numbered from 0 to 9. In fact there
were 16 of each, but the other six were secret and for internal use
by the library routines only. 

1 REGISTERS

A register can store one number. Registers are denoted by a period(.) followed
by a digit. Registers my be used in assignment statements and as
operands in conditional jump statements. 

2 DATA POINTERS

A data pointer points to a data area in memory. Data pointers are denoted
by a slash (/) followed by a digit. Data pointers may be used as registers
in assignment statements and conditional jump statements. The contents of the
memory location the data area points to are used in that case. Before
you can use a data pointer that way, you have to make it point to
a memory location and you have to reserve memory for it.

The statement 

333/ 44

declares a storage area for 44 numbers with the label 333. 

/0 -) 333

makes data pointer 0 point to the first number in that area.

/0 (- ,127

stores the number ,127 into.. that location. 

/0 ))

makes data pointer 0 point to the next location in that area.

/0 (( 

makes it point to the previous location.

Making the pointer point to a random location in the data area, it a bit
tricky. First you have to determine the smallest power of two that is not
less than the size of the data area. For area 333, that is 64. To point to
location n (counting from zero) you have to use a number that's n/64, 
e.g. location 16 is the number ,25 The following statement makes the
pointer point to the desired location.

/0 -) 333 ,25 

The second operand may also be a register or a data pointer.

3 PROGRAM POINTERS

A program pointer points to a location in the program. Program pointers are 
denoted by a colon (:) followed by a digit. Program pointers cannot
be used as ordinary operands in assignment statements and such. 
      
You can declare labels in your program and you can make program pointers
point to them. Then you can jump to those pointers.

The statement

4400: 

declares a program label 4400:

:2 -) 4400

makes program pointer 2 point to label 4400.

-) :2

jumps to program pointer 2, in this case it's the label 4400.

Program pointer 0 is the default subroutine return address.  
Look at the following program.

.0 (- ,375
:0 -) 6000
:1 -) 100
-) :1
6000:

First a value is assigned to register 0. Then program pointer 0 is made
to point to label 6000. Then program pointer 1 is made to point to label .100.
Next that pointer is jumped to. At label 100 there is the standard subroutine
to print the contents of register 0 to the teletype. After that's
done the subroutine jumps to program pointer 0, and that's label 6000.
 
There is also a conditional jump, which consists of two operands separated
by a relational operator followed by an ordinary jump statement.

.0 ( ,0 -) :4

means jump to program pointer 4 if register 0 is less than zero.

There are also program pointer storage areas. You declare them as
data storage areas but with /: instead of /

666/: 32

reserves a program pointer storage area for 32 pointers. 
You can set a data pointer to this area. If you do this it is illegal
to use that data pointer for data, but now it is legal to assign
program pointers to the data pointer and back.

:3 -) 7777
/4 (- :3

stores the label 7777 (through program pointer 3) into the location the
data pointer 4 points to.

:5 (- /4

sets program pointer 5 to the contents of the memory location the
data pointer points to, in this case label 7777

4 CONSTANTS

Constants are just constants. These are quantities that are hard to
type otherwise. A constant is denoted by a quote(") followed by a digit.
They may be used as ordinary arithmetic operands, but not on the
left hand side of an assignment.

"0 is the minimum number ( -,9999999999999999)
"1 is the smallest distance between two numbers ( 2^-14)
"2 is the special overflow value.
"3 is ..1/pi
"4 is ln 2
"5 is 1/32 
"6 is 1/sqrt(2)
"7 is sqrt(3)/2 
"8 is log 2 (base 10)
"9 is the maximum number (  ,9999999999999999)

5 CHANNELS

Channels are the input/output devices of the computer. Channels are
denoted by surrounding a digit with parentheses. Channels may be used as
operands in arithmetic expressions and conditional jump statements. In
this case the channel is read. They may also be used as the left hand side
of an assignment expression. In this case a value is written to the
channel.

(0) is the teletype channel. The value sent to it/ received from it
is the binary value of the Baudot code divided by 32. If the channel is read
and no character is available, a negative value is returned.

(1) is the paper tape channel. Same remarks as for (0). 

(2) is the real time clock. It can only be read. Runs from "0 to "9 in
one hour, then returns to "0 again.

(3) was the random number generator. It could only be read. This was
implemented using germanium noise diodes and it was very unreliable.
If it ran hot, it returned all 1 bits (overflow value) almost all the time.
Its use was highly discouraged.

(4) to (7) are connected to radar, torpedoes or whatever stuff the
computer is supposed to control.


The statement 
(0) (- ,03125

sends Baudot code 1 to the teletype.

PROGRAM AND DATA LABELS

Data areas and program pointer storage areas are denoted by numeric
labels in the range 0--32767. The labels above 30000 are .reserved for
internal use only and may not be used. A program pointer
storage area and a data area may not have the same label.

Program labels are numbers in the range 0--32767. Numbers below 1000
are reserved for standard subroutines. Numbers above 30000 are
reserved for internal use only and may not be used.

Note that kvikkalkul does not have integers or scaled fractions. But
some of the library routines treat their arguments as if they were 
scaled fractions in the range (-256,256) or integers in the
range (16383,16383).

Some of the library routines I still remember are.

11 Multiply integers .0 is .0 times .1
12 Divide integers. .0 is .0 div .1

21 convert fraction to scaled fraction.
22 convert fractional part of scaled fraction to fraction. 

31 Multiply scaled fractions. 
32 Divide scaled fractions. 

48 Wait until character ready on teletype, read to .0
49 same for paper tape.

100 Writes the contents of .0 to the teletype in decimal fraction format.
101 same for paper tape.
150 Reads a decimal fractional number from the teletype to .0 
151 same for paper tape.
200 send CRLF to teletype
201 same for paper tape
250 wait until CRLF received from teletype
251 same for paper tape.

300/301 350/351 Number read/write routines for integers in the range
-16383 .. 16383. 

302/303 352/353 Same for Scaled fractions (-256,256)

400 square root. (argument and result in .0)
450 Sine (where -1..1 as argument was interpreted as . .-180..180 degrees)
460 Cosine.
470 Arctan (argument is scaled fraction, result is scaled to (-1,+1)
480 Log (1+x) (base 2)
490 2^x-1 

530 Read a line from the teletype into memory pointed to by /0, one
    character per number 0..1 in steps of ,03125
531 Same for paper tape.
540 Write a line to paper tape from memory pointed to by /0, one
    character per number.
541 Same for paper tape.
550/551 560/561 Line read/write routines that packed three characters
    per number, first was 5 most significant bits. These were
    stored more efficiently but a HELL to process, as negatives, positives
    and even overflow was a valid character triplet.    
    
900 Read hour number to .0 Must be called at least twice an hour, because
it relies on the positive/negative transition of (2) to increment the internal
hour number. 

666 emergency stop.

888 Dump internal program state to paper tape and stop. Many programs
    needed to do a lot of processing to initialize tables. If text strings
    were needed, they were read from teletype and/or paper tape and
    not written in the program itself. So each nontrivial program had an
    initialization phase in which it read data and computed numbers
    for tables. Then the program called 888. The resulting dump
    could be used by the kvikkalkul compiler to generate a program
    with all tables already initialized. 
    
KVIKKALKUL TODAY

I left the Swedish Navy in 1958 and now I live .in a country whose name I 
rather not tell. I fear that I will be extradited to Sweden if the 
Swedish authorities see this message. What I described was the state of
kvikkalkul in 1958. What I tell in this section is based on rumours,
on tiny pieces of information I got from colleagues and on intelligent
guesswork.

Kvikkalkul is still in use today, at least that was the case in 1991. 
There is an Ada to kvikkalkul translator and most new programs are
written in Ada and then translated to kvikkalkul. The kvikkalkul
version was the definitive program that was reviewed, approved,
tested and maintained. There was also a Simula to kvikkalkul translator
in the 70s and some programs were written with it. 

Some changes have been made to the language.
The guaranteed precision of numbers was increased over the years and
is now at least 32 bits. Valid label numbers are now in the range
0..4000000000 with some haphazard reserved areas for library routines and
internally used labels. Most library routines that are widely used today
lie in the range 60001-65535. I have no details of them. 

The language itself remained remarkably constant. It's still a language
without letters and the smiley notation for operators in still in use,
though for source text the angle brackets may be used instead of parentheses
and + and = are valid substitutes for the -/- and :: operators. Now
new construct have been added and the only data type in the language
is still the fixed point fractional number.  Channel number 3 for
the random generator has been deleted and numbers 8 and 9 were added.

Channel 9 is the OS supervisory channel. By sending messages to it, you can 
assign arbitrary files to the channels 0, 1, and 3 through 7. You can
specify the character conversion type of the channels. It is possible
to connect channel 0 to an ASCII terminal and convert all incoming
characters to (more or less) Baudot equivalents and convert all outgoing
Baudot characters back to ASCII. In fact this is the default
for channels 0 and 1. All typical OS services can be accessed through
channel 9.

Channel 8 is the floating point processor. You can send numbers and 
opcodes to it and retrieve the computed results. The numbers that you
send to it are 32-bit fractionals that bear no relationship to the FP
numbers as the FP processor sees them. There are library routines
for printing and reading them. The 640000 type standard FP library
calls were made obsolete by channel 8. They still work.

An ex-colleague of mine tried my accounting package from 1958 on
a modern kvikkalkul compiler in 1991. It still works flawlessly, except
that the year cannot be set beyond 1973. He had to retype the program
by hand as there was no suitable 5-bit Baudot paper tape reader for
the system. 

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Article 41933 of alt.folklore.computers:
Message-ID: <151327Z28101994 at anon.penet.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: an31517 at anon.penet.fi
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 15:11:18 UTC
Subject: 1000000 Hail Mary's in kvikkalkul
Lines: 55


I got many requests for a real program in kvikkalkul.
Here is one, without comments of course.

666/ 5
/0 -) 666
:1 -) 550
:0 -) 1010
-) :1
1010:
:1 -) 888
:0 -) 1020
-) :1
1020:
/0 -) 666
:1 -) 1030
:2 -) 1040
:0 -) 1050
:3 -) 560
.9 (- ,0
1030:
.8 (- ,0
1040:
-) :3
1050:
.8 (- .8 -/- ,0005
.8 ( ,49975 -) :2
.9 (- .9 -/- ,0005
.9 ( ,49975 -) :1
:1 -) 666
-) :1

Notes:
1 This progrram uses the library routines 550 and 560 for reading and
  writing a line on the teletype in packed 3 per number format.
  The line is stored in data area 666, which holds 5 numbers, 15 chars.
2 The first time you run the program it reads a line from the teletype and
  you have to type the line "hail mary". Then it dumps the memory contents
  to paper tape (888). The compiler constructs a production binary from that
  memory dump and the original program binary. This binary will start at
  label 1020:
3 This is really sloppy code. It uses fractional n....umbers such as 0.0005
  that are not exactly represented in binary. Serious programs used 
  exact powers of 2 for counters, like 1/1024 ( ,0009765625)
4 No way we would ever attempt to run such silliness! It would eat several
  boxes of paper and the computer time would cost a large multiple of the
  paper. 
5 Kvikkalkul isn't that bad for expressing algorithms, once you get used to
  it.
   
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and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin at anon.penet.fi.

. 100% 52.66 KB/s 02:04:01 (52.66 KB/s) - `-' saved [17875/17875] -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From george Thu Sep 2 02:12:01 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:12:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Kvikkalkul Programming Language Message-ID: <20040902061201.GB24491@trot.local> http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/doc/kvik.html Article 41828 of alt.folklore.computers: Message-ID: <081301Z20101994 at anon.penet.fi> From: an31517 at anon.penet.fi Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:06:43 UTC Subject: REPOST: kvikkalkul Lines: 410 THE KVIKKALKUL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE Note: this message contains top secret information of the Swedish Navy. Possession of this information in Sweden can (and will in most cases) lead to Capital Punishment. DO NOT DISTRIBUTE THIS INFORMATION TO SWEDEN!!! INTRODUCTION When I worked for the Swedish Navy in 1957 as a programmer, my task was to write programs for the SABINA computer, one of the first transistorised computers in the world, manufactured by SAAB for use on Swedish submarines. The computer was located on a test facility in Karlskrona, the Swedish Navy base. All programming was done in a funky language called 'kvikkalkul', a language that makes Assembler (or even INTERCAL) look friendly. The mere existence of SABINA and the programming language 'kvikkalkul' was and still is top secret. Other top secrets of that age leaked into publicity long ago, but this one is still preserved. Until now. Apart from real-time submarine applications such as guided torpedo control, I did an accounting package in kvikkalkul as well. THE CHARACTER SET Kvikkalkul was typed on Baudot encoded teletype machines. Programs were stored on paper tape. As you might know, Baudot is a five bit code. The machine can be in two modes, the 'letters' mode and the 'figures' mode. In 'letters' mode you have the 26 letter symbols, in 'figures' mode you have the ten digits and some punctuation marks. The codes to switch to the 'letters' or 'figures' mode, the space, the linefeed and carriage return codes are available in both modes. Kvikkalkul used symbols from the 'figures' mode exclusively, therefore it had no letters. If you typed letters in your program they were interpreted as the corresponding 'figures' mode symbols. Kvikkalkul had no comments or text literals either; there were no letters in the language. Period. The available symbols were: CR/LF, Space, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, period(.), comma(,), quote("), colon(:), dash(-), slash(/) and the left and right parentheses ( and ). Each statement was on a separate line. THE NUMBER SYSTEM The only data type in kvikkalkul was the signed fixed point fractional number. The reason for this was that the precision of numbers could be extended without breaking existing programs. Kvikkalkul was designed for such things as real time control, so this seemed sensible. The downside was that you had no integers or whatever other data type. Even arrays were indexed with fractional numbers. The minimum precision you could rely on was 15 bits. This is a sign bit and 14 significant fractional bits. The representation was one's complement. The data word with all bits set (minus zero) denoted overflow. There were 16383 positive numbers, 0 and 16383 negative numbers. The minimum number was a bit higher than -1 and the maximum number was a bit lower than 1. You didn't have numbers greater than 1, even not 1 itself. Every operation that would produce a result outside the range (-1,1) would return the special overflow value with all bits set. Numbers were entered as decimal fractions, starting with a comma (the Swedish representation for decimal point). e.g. ,125 denotes 1/8. Kvikkalkul had the following operators Assignment/pointer (- Assignment -) Points to (( Previous )) Next Arithmetic -/- Plus -- Minus )( Times -:- Divide - Unary Minus Relational :: Equal :/: Not Equal ( Less ) Greater (: Less or Equal ): Greater or Equal Assignment statements consisted of an object, the assignment operator and an expression. The expression consisted of one operand or two operands separated by an arithmetic operator. An operand was either a number or an object with an optional unary minus operator. Below are two assignment statements .9 (- ,5 .8 (- .9 )( -,33333333 The first assigns 1/2 to register 9, the second one multiplies register 9 by 1/3 and assigns that to register 8. THE PROGRAM OBJECTS The kvikkalkul objects are registers, data pointers, program pointers and channels. They are denoted by a special symbol followed by a digit. There are 10 objects of each type, numbered from 0 to 9. In fact there were 16 of each, but the other six were secret and for internal use by the library routines only. 1 REGISTERS A register can store one number. Registers are denoted by a period(.) followed by a digit. Registers my be used in assignment statements and as operands in conditional jump statements. 2 DATA POINTERS A data pointer points to a data area in memory. Data pointers are denoted by a slash (/) followed by a digit. Data pointers may be used as registers in assignment statements and conditional jump statements. The contents of the memory location the data area points to are used in that case. Before you can use a data pointer that way, you have to make it point to a memory location and you have to reserve memory for it. The statement 333/ 44 declares a storage area for 44 numbers with the label 333. /0 -) 333 makes data pointer 0 point to the first number in that area. /0 (- ,127 stores the number ,127 into that location. /0 )) makes data pointer 0 point to the next location in that area. /0 (( makes it point to the previous location. Making the pointer point to a random location in the data area, it a bit tricky. First you have to determine the smallest power of two that is not less than the size of the data area. For area 333, that is 64. To point to location n (counting from zero) you have to use a number that's n/64, e.g. location 16 is the number ,25 The following statement makes the pointer point to the desired location. /0 -) 333 ,25 The second operand may also be a register or a data pointer. 3 PROGRAM POINTERS A program pointer points to a location in the program. Program pointers are denoted by a colon (:) followed by a digit. Program pointers cannot be used as ordinary operands in assignment statements and such. You can declare labels in your program and you can make program pointers point to them. Then you can jump to those pointers. The statement 4400: declares a program label 4400: :2 -) 4400 makes program pointer 2 point to label 4400. -) :2 jumps to program pointer 2, in this case it's the label 4400. Program pointer 0 is the default subroutine return address. Look at the following program. .0 (- ,375 :0 -) 6000 :1 -) 100 -) :1 6000: First a value is assigned to register 0. Then program pointer 0 is made to point to label 6000. Then program pointer 1 is made to point to label 100. Next that pointer is jumped to. At label 100 there is the standard subroutine to print the contents of register 0 to the teletype. After that's done the subroutine jumps to program pointer 0, and that's label 6000. There is also a conditional jump, which consists of two operands separated by a relational operator followed by an ordinary jump statement. .0 ( ,0 -) :4 means jump to program pointer 4 if register 0 is less than zero. There are also program pointer storage areas. You declare them as data storage areas but with /: instead of / 666/: 32 reserves a program pointer storage area for 32 pointers. You can set a data pointer to this area. If you do this it is illegal to use that data pointer for data, but now it is legal to assign program pointers to the data pointer and back. :3 -) 7777 /4 (- :3 stores the label 7777 (through program pointer 3) into the location the data pointer 4 points to. :5 (- /4 sets program pointer 5 to the contents of the memory location the data pointer points to, in this case label 7777 4 CONSTANTS Constants are just constants. These are quantities that are hard to type otherwise. A constant is denoted by a quote(") followed by a digit. They may be used as ordinary arithmetic operands, but not on the left hand side of an assignment. "0 is the minimum number ( -,9999999999999999) "1 is the smallest distance between two numbers ( 2^-14) "2 is the special overflow value. "3 is 1/pi "4 is ln 2 "5 is 1/32 "6 is 1/sqrt(2) "7 is sqrt(3)/2 "8 is log 2 (base 10) "9 is the maximum number ( ,9999999999999999) 5 CHANNELS Channels are the input/output devices of the computer. Channels are denoted by surrounding a digit with parentheses. Channels may be used as operands in arithmetic expressions and conditional jump statements. In this case the channel is read. They may also be used as the left hand side of an assignment expression. In this case a value is written to the channel. (0) is the teletype channel. The value sent to it/ received from it is the binary value of the Baudot code divided by 32. If the channel is read and no character is available, a negative value is returned. (1) is the paper tape channel. Same remarks as for (0). (2) is the real time clock. It can only be read. Runs from "0 to "9 in one hour, then returns to "0 again. (3) was the random number generator. It could only be read. This was implemented using germanium noise diodes and it was very unreliable. If it ran hot, it returned all 1 bits (overflow value) almost all the time. Its use was highly discouraged. (4) to (7) are connected to radar, torpedoes or whatever stuff the computer is supposed to control. The statement (0) (- ,03125 sends Baudot code 1 to the teletype. PROGRAM AND DATA LABELS Data areas and program pointer storage areas are denoted by numeric labels in the range 0--32767. The labels above 30000 are reserved for internal use only and may not be used. A program pointer storage area and a data area may not have the same label. Program labels are numbers in the range 0--32767. Numbers below 1000 are reserved for standard subroutines. Numbers above 30000 are reserved for internal use only and may not be used. Note that kvikkalkul does not have integers or scaled fractions. But some of the library routines treat their arguments as if they were scaled fractions in the range (-256,256) or integers in the range (16383,16383). Some of the library routines I still remember are. 11 Multiply integers .0 is .0 times .1 12 Divide integers. .0 is .0 div .1 21 convert fraction to scaled fraction. 22 convert fractional part of scaled fraction to fraction. 31 Multiply scaled fractions. 32 Divide scaled fractions. 48 Wait until character ready on teletype, read to .0 49 same for paper tape. 100 Writes the contents of .0 to the teletype in decimal fraction format. 101 same for paper tape. 150 Reads a decimal fractional number from the teletype to .0 151 same for paper tape. 200 send CRLF to teletype 201 same for paper tape 250 wait until CRLF received from teletype 251 same for paper tape. 300/301 350/351 Number read/write routines for integers in the range -16383 .. 16383. 302/303 352/353 Same for Scaled fractions (-256,256) 400 square root. (argument and result in .0) 450 Sine (where -1..1 as argument was interpreted as -180..180 degrees) 460 Cosine. 470 Arctan (argument is scaled fraction, result is scaled to (-1,+1) 480 Log (1+x) (base 2) 490 2^x-1 530 Read a line from the teletype into memory pointed to by /0, one character per number 0..1 in steps of ,03125 531 Same for paper tape. 540 Write a line to paper tape from memory pointed to by /0, one character per number. 541 Same for paper tape. 550/551 560/561 Line read/write routines that packed three characters per number, first was 5 most significant bits. These were stored more efficiently but a HELL to process, as negatives, positives and even overflow was a valid character triplet. 900 Read hour number to .0 Must be called at least twice an hour, because it relies on the positive/negative transition of (2) to increment the internal hour number. 666 emergency stop. 888 Dump internal program state to paper tape and stop. Many programs needed to do a lot of processing to initialize tables. If text strings were needed, they were read from teletype and/or paper tape and not written in the program itself. So each nontrivial program had an initialization phase in which it read data and computed numbers for tables. Then the program called 888. The resulting dump could be used by the kvikkalkul compiler to generate a program with all tables already initialized. KVIKKALKUL TODAY I left the Swedish Navy in 1958 and now I live in a country whose name I rather not tell. I fear that I will be extradited to Sweden if the Swedish authorities see this message. What I described was the state of kvikkalkul in 1958. What I tell in this section is based on rumours, on tiny pieces of information I got from colleagues and on intelligent guesswork. Kvikkalkul is still in use today, at least that was the case in 1991. There is an Ada to kvikkalkul translator and most new programs are written in Ada and then translated to kvikkalkul. The kvikkalkul version was the definitive program that was reviewed, approved, tested and maintained. There was also a Simula to kvikkalkul translator in the 70s and some programs were written with it. Some changes have been made to the language. The guaranteed precision of numbers was increased over the years and is now at least 32 bits. Valid label numbers are now in the range 0..4000000000 with some haphazard reserved areas for library routines and internally used labels. Most library routines that are widely used today lie in the range 60001-65535. I have no details of them. The language itself remained remarkably constant. It's still a language without letters and the smiley notation for operators in still in use, though for source text the angle brackets may be used instead of parentheses and + and = are valid substitutes for the -/- and :: operators. Now new construct have been added and the only data type in the language is still the fixed point fractional number. Channel number 3 for the random generator has been deleted and numbers 8 and 9 were added. Channel 9 is the OS supervisory channel. By sending messages to it, you can assign arbitrary files to the channels 0, 1, and 3 through 7. You can specify the character conversion type of the channels. It is possible to connect channel 0 to an ASCII terminal and convert all incoming characters to (more or less) Baudot equivalents and convert all outgoing Baudot characters back to ASCII. In fact this is the default for channels 0 and 1. All typical OS services can be accessed through channel 9. Channel 8 is the floating point processor. You can send numbers and opcodes to it and retrieve the computed results. The numbers that you send to it are 32-bit fractionals that bear no relationship to the FP numbers as the FP processor sees them. There are library routines for printing and reading them. The 640000 type standard FP library calls were made obsolete by channel 8. They still work. An ex-colleague of mine tried my accounting package from 1958 on a modern kvikkalkul compiler in 1991. It still works flawlessly, except that the year cannot be set beyond 1973. He had to retype the program by hand as there was no suitable 5-bit Baudot paper tape reader for the system. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help at anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin at anon.penet.fi. Article 41933 of alt.folklore.computers: Message-ID: <151327Z28101994 at anon.penet.fi> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: an31517 at anon.penet.fi Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 15:11:18 UTC Subject: 1000000 Hail Mary's in kvikkalkul Lines: 55 I got many requests for a real program in kvikkalkul. Here is one, without comments of course. 666/ 5 /0 -) 666 :1 -) 550 :0 -) 1010 -) :1 1010: :1 -) 888 :0 -) 1020 -) :1 1020: /0 -) 666 :1 -) 1030 :2 -) 1040 :0 -) 1050 :3 -) 560 .9 (- ,0 1030: .8 (- ,0 1040: -) :3 1050: .8 (- .8 -/- ,0005 .8 ( ,49975 -) :2 .9 (- .9 -/- ,0005 .9 ( ,49975 -) :1 :1 -) 666 -) :1 Notes: 1 This progrram uses the library routines 550 and 560 for reading and writing a line on the teletype in packed 3 per number format. The line is stored in data area 666, which holds 5 numbers, 15 chars. 2 The first time you run the program it reads a line from the teletype and you have to type the line "hail mary". Then it dumps the memory contents to paper tape (888). The compiler constructs a production binary from that memory dump and the original program binary. This binary will start at label 1020: 3 This is really sloppy code. It uses fractional numbers such as 0.0005 that are not exactly represented in binary. Serious programs used exact powers of 2 for counters, like 1/1024 ( ,0009765625) 4 No way we would ever attempt to run such silliness! It would eat several boxes of paper and the computer time would cost a large multiple of the paper. 5 Kvikkalkul isn't that bad for expressing algorithms, once you get used to it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help at anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin at anon.penet.fi. -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From george Thu Sep 2 02:14:13 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:14:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: The Kvikkalkul Programming Language In-Reply-To: <20040902060530.GA24491@trot.local> References: <20040902060530.GA24491@trot.local> Message-ID: <20040902061413.GC24491@trot.local> Cute, that was littered with wget progress indicators! On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 02:05:30AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: >--02:04:00-- http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/%7Ekamikaze/doc/kvik.html > => `-' >Resolving kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu... 129.101.191.123 >Connecting to kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu[129.101.191.123]:80... connected. >HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK >Length: 17,875 [text/html] > > >The Kvikkalkul Programming Language > > > >

The Kvikkalkul Programming Language

> >
>Article 41828 of alt.folklore.computers:
>Message-ID: <081301Z20101994 at anon.penet.fi>
>From: an31517 at anon.penet.fi
>Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:06:43 UTC
>Subject: REPOST: kvikkalkul
>Lines: 410
>
>
>THE KVIKKALKUL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
>
>Note: this message contains top secret information of the Swedish Navy.
>      Possession of this information in Sweden can (and will in most cases)
>      lead to Capital Punishment. DO NOT DISTRIBUTE THIS INFORMATION
>      TO SWEDEN!!! 
>      
>INTRODUCTION
>
>When I worked for the Swedish Navy in 1957 as a programmer, my task was to
>write programs for the SABINA computer, one of the first transistorised
>computers in the world, manufactured by SAAB for use on Swedish submarines.
>The computer was located on a test facility in Karlskrona, the Swedish 
>Navy base. All programming was done in a funky language called 'kvikkalkul',
>a language that makes Assembler (or even INTERCAL) look friendly. 
>The mere exis
>    0K .tence of SABINA and the programming language 'kvikkalkul' was and

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From dan  Thu Sep  2 06:10:51 2004
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:10:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] the new site. . .
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20040902061001.G9776@xeon.unixathome.org>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:

> We are at the bar after Ike's awesome meeting on Jails, and of course,
> as the bar has does have nice wifi access, we have managed to put up
> the new site. . .

That looks much better!

George: you're in a bar, you must be drinking....  Are you still allowed
to drink and geek at the same time?  Your poor notebook!

-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/



From lists  Thu Sep  2 08:00:13 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:00:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT- OpenBSD on Sun Netra
Message-ID: <20040902080013.3cba74b0@delinux.abwatley.com>

Off Topic

I want to load OpenBSD on some old Sun pizza boxes.  It was suggested
that the easiest way is to get a CD drive and boot from that.

I'm looking for a Sun External SCSI CD.
Does anyone have one they want to sell me?

I'll come get it..

I found 2 on ebay but I don't want to wait a week.
Michael


p.s.  here's machine info if curious...

UNAME     : SunOS ns1 5.9 Generic_112233-02 sun4u sparc 
SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIi-cEngine

KERNEL    : 64-bit sparcv9 kernel modules 
MEMORY    : 256 Megabytes
BANNER    : Netra t1 (UltraSPARC-IIi 440MHz)

---



From anthony  Thu Sep  2 08:15:55 2004
From: anthony (Anthony Sofia)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:15:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT- OpenBSD on Sun Netra
Message-ID: <20040902121555.GA12968@dryhump.net>

I run NetBSD on an ss5 pizza box, and I always do a network install. It takes
maybe half an hour to get the services setup, booting via openprom is as
simple as doing 'boot net', then pull down the system via ftp using the 
installer. 

(I know I didn't answer your question, but incase you don't quickly find
a cdrom drive you have other options =).

On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 08:00:13AM -0400, michael said:
>Off Topic
>
>I want to load OpenBSD on some old Sun pizza boxes.  It was suggested
>that the easiest way is to get a CD drive and boot from that.
>
>I'm looking for a Sun External SCSI CD.
>Does anyone have one they want to sell me?
>
>I'll come get it..
>
>I found 2 on ebay but I don't want to wait a week.
>Michael
>
>
>p.s.  here's machine info if curious...
>
>UNAME     : SunOS ns1 5.9 Generic_112233-02 sun4u sparc 
>SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIi-cEngine
>
>KERNEL    : 64-bit sparcv9 kernel modules 
>MEMORY    : 256 Megabytes
>BANNER    : Netra t1 (UltraSPARC-IIi 440MHz)
>

Anthony Sofia (anthony at dryhump.net)
--
I'll take care of those murderous trolls.



From george  Thu Sep  2 08:44:44 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:44:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Re: Reverse SSH tunelling
In-Reply-To: <200409010910.45986.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20040831043131.GA22791@trot.local>
	<200409010910.45986.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <20040902124444.GA30212@trot.local>

On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 09:10:45AM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>On Tuesday 31 August 2004 00:31, George Georgalis wrote:
>> Saw this on the focus linux list today.... 
>>
>>
>> http://chownat.lucidx.com/
>> chownat, pronounced "chone nat", allows two peers behind two separate
>> NATs with NO port forwarding and NO DMZ setup on their routers to
>> directly communicate with each other.
>>
>>
>> comes with perl source and windows binaries.... haven't tried it but I'm
>> guessing it works like it says it does...
>>
>> // George
>
>maybe I'm missing something, but I can't find a license for the software 
>anywhere. (on the site or in the code)

Humm must be free, I can't access the site again... should have mirrored
it.

Anyway the changelog is only like a month old, so he probably didn't
think about it yet.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From okan  Thu Sep  2 09:32:30 2004
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:32:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT- OpenBSD on Sun Netra
In-Reply-To: <20040902121555.GA12968@dryhump.net>
References: <20040902121555.GA12968@dryhump.net>
Message-ID: <20040902133230.GA2764@yinaska.pair.com>

In addition to Anthony's way, if you have another OS installed on those
pizza boxes, drop miniroot36.fs into the swap slice and boot from b -
other easy way...cheers.

Okan

On Thu 2004.09.02 at 07:15 -0500, Anthony Sofia wrote:
> I run NetBSD on an ss5 pizza box, and I always do a network install. It takes
> maybe half an hour to get the services setup, booting via openprom is as
> simple as doing 'boot net', then pull down the system via ftp using the 
> installer. 
> 
> (I know I didn't answer your question, but incase you don't quickly find
> a cdrom drive you have other options =).
> 
> On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 08:00:13AM -0400, michael said:
> >Off Topic
> >
> >I want to load OpenBSD on some old Sun pizza boxes.  It was suggested
> >that the easiest way is to get a CD drive and boot from that.
> >
> >I'm looking for a Sun External SCSI CD.
> >Does anyone have one they want to sell me?
> >
> >I'll come get it..
> >
> >I found 2 on ebay but I don't want to wait a week.
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >p.s.  here's machine info if curious...
> >
> >UNAME     : SunOS ns1 5.9 Generic_112233-02 sun4u sparc 
> >SUNW,UltraSPARC-IIi-cEngine
> >
> >KERNEL    : 64-bit sparcv9 kernel modules 
> >MEMORY    : 256 Megabytes
> >BANNER    : Netra t1 (UltraSPARC-IIi 440MHz)
> >
> 
> Anthony Sofia (anthony at dryhump.net)
> --
> I'll take care of those murderous trolls.
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
Okan Demirmen 
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From george  Thu Sep  2 12:48:38 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:48:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] logging protocol & EFFF
Message-ID: 

As per one of the many bar discussions last night, I have attached the 
PDF from the EFF about logging practices.

I'm sure they would appreciate any input, as I will hopefully be 
providing them in the near future.

g
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From lists  Thu Sep  2 15:27:41 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:27:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT- OpenBSD on Sun Netra
In-Reply-To: <20040902080013.3cba74b0@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20040902080013.3cba74b0@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20040902152741.3b508f9e@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:00:13 -0400
michael  wrote:

> I want to load OpenBSD on some old Sun pizza boxes.  

Anthony Sofia & Okan Demirmen, thank you for your suggestions.  Who
needs media when we have a net connection, right?  We don't need no
stinkin' CDROM!

The b-slice is recommended in the INSTALL.sparc64 document.  It turns
out this is very easy if it already has an OS.  

ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/sparc64/INSTALL.sparc64

It was this simple:  I used a crossover cable from the console port on
the Sun box to the serial port on my pc.  I typed "tip -9600 tty00"
without quotes to start listening to the Sun box as it booted.

1. boot pizza box normally
2. copy over the miniroot36.fs to swap slice
3. halt
4. at [ok] prompt type "boot disk:b bsd" without quotes
5. cheer out loud at familiar boot process

>From there on, it is a normal install for me with the exception of using
FTP instead of CD.  The sets are downloading now.

Thanks again,
Michael

-- 
---



From ike  Thu Sep  2 16:13:39 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:13:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jailing Lecture URLS-notes
Message-ID: <947DA88A-FD1C-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi all,

What follows are the notes from last nights lecture on FreeBSD Jailing.

--
Now, I don't think they're on this list, but again a special shout out 
from NY, and special thanks to these people, to whom last nights 
lecture would not have been possible:

Jon Ringuette of http://iMeme.net, taught me to jail.

Poul-Henning Kamp, who wrote the jail feature for R&D Associates 
http://www.rndassociates.com/ who contributed it to FreeBSD.

Robert Watson, of McAfee Research, wrote the extended documentation, 
found a few bugs, added a few new features, and cleaned up the userland 
jail environment.

They all deserve a beer.

--
My presentation slides have been posted here for download:
http://diversaform.com/downloads/nycbug_jailing_lecture.pdf

--
URLS:

"Securing FreeBSD Using Jail", Evan Sarmiento
http://www.samag.com/documents/s=1151/sam0105d/0105d.htm

The Jail Subsystem, FreeBSD Architectural Handbook
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/arch-handbook/jail.html

A really nifty suite of jailing tools, (and more jailing links at the 
bottom of page!)
http://www.samag.com/documents/s=1151/sam0105d/0105d.htm

How to break out of a chrooted jail:
http://www.bpfh.net/simes/computing/chroot-break.html

An excellent high-level paper on Jailing by Poul-Henning Kamp and 
Robert Watson:
http://www.acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170


--
Rocket everybody-
.ike

isaac at diversaform.net
ike at lesmuug.org




From ike  Fri Sep  3 01:28:34 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 01:28:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Virtual Jail Installfest
Message-ID: <19E17EB2-FD6A-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi all,

I wanted to keep this one a bit low key, as bandwidth/space is limited, 
but I'm hosting a 'Virtual Jailing Installfest', starting tomorrow 
afternoon!

The skinny, this weekend, I'm giving root access to a server in my home 
office, and let everyone who wants to get their feet wet with jails!  
It's an ad-hock followup to the last lecture.

It's something a mix between a biker-gang party at some bar in the 
Badlands of the Dakotas, or a bunch of Buddhist Monks getting together 
to do a sand painting in Tibet.
Except it's more like a bunch of UNIX hackers getting together across 
the internet, to go nuts on a server for the weekend, so it's not 
really much like either...

If you aren't comfortable with a root shell on a UNIX machine, please 
tag-team with someone who is- this party requires basic unix 
administrative knowledge, but we don't want to leave anyone out!  
Everyone can always learn *something*!


Anyhow,


WHY:
--
I have a little server which is going to be nuked on monday and I 
already prepped it with a fresh FreeBSD 5.2.1 install the other day, in 
an attempt to have a 'cooking-show style' example of starting a jail 
during my lecture...  With that, this little slow rig took FOREVER to 
compile the source jail userland, and was even still compiling when I 
left to give the lecture...

So, now, the machine is sitting here in my home office, going to be 
nuked, (for a fresh 4.10 install Monday), and I'd love to give anyone 
who came from nycbug the opportunity to create, run, and generally get 
your feet wet with jailing in the machine.

I only have 1 external IP address to the world, and it's (more or less) 
nat'd to an internal 192.168.1.x address range- so the jailed servers 
won't be able to see the outside world- (but one will be able to ssh 
into them from the master jailing system).



DETAILS (read if you are attending please!):
--
Any NYCBUG member, or friend of NYCBUG is welcome to 'attend', here's 
the deal:

1) Everyone will receive a root account on the Jailing server,

If you want in, you should show up on irc tomrorrow after 1:30pm-2:30pm 
EST., and again at 7:30pm to 8:30pm.

     server:irc.freenode.net
    channel:nycbug

I will give out user accounts (ssh login), everyone gets root on the 
box (via sudo).  Then, those who then have accounts, can give out more 
accounts as folks show up throughout the weekend.

**ANYONE WHO IS LOGGED INTO THE SERVER *MUST* BE ON NYCBUG IRC AT THE 
SAME TIME**

If you just want to show up and watch, that's AOK too, the more the 
merrier!



2) I will have a system userland pre-compiled (raw, unconfigured) and 
available for copying- this will save cpu for everyone, so we're not 
all doing a 'make world' at the same time... :)

3) I will be in and out on irc for the weekend, (though working 
tomorrow and Sat.,) but I should be around to answer questions, and 
keep things running smoothly.  If I'm not around, it's up to the 
attendees to keep the party lively.  Nobody do anything dangerous while 
I'm not around, ok?

4) The purpose of this fun is to let everyone experiment with Jailing, 
so while other uses of the system is aok, let's keep it sane and 
focused around jailing- (i.e. no cpu/network intensive off-topic 
activities, ok?)  It is fine to compile stuff inside the jails, just 
use your better judgement, and tell people on irc what your doing.  
(i.e. it would suck if everyone is running cvsup from inside jails all 
at once!)

5) This is not a NYC only event, and is open to anyone interested- but 
as my bandwidth and server is limited, only so many folks can be on at 
once- (we'll just have to feel all that out...)  Invite whomever you 
feel will act in the spirit of the event- (hey, some of the most crowed 
parties I've been to have had the best dancing- so whatever...)

6) Fork Bombs, Hog Attacks, and other Destructive Activities which are 
'on topic' with regard to jailing:  I'd like to reserve this kind of 
activity until Sunday afternoon, if anyone is so inclined.  (insomuch 
as I'd like to be around to power-cycle the server).

7) It is everyone's job to keep a light eye on things so that the 
server is not compromised and used inappropriately by any dorks to do 
nefarious things- (crack remote boxes, send spam, etc...), activities 
of that nature will not be tolerated.  In the unlikely event that some 
'off-topic' activity happens from the server, I'll simply shut it down- 
and whomever is responsible will have a boatload of BSD hardcores after 
them for ruining the party... :)


PARTICULARS:
--
Date:
     Friday, Sept.3- Monday, Sept.6, 2004

Location:
     brooklyn.diversaform.com

Bandwidth:
     My ADSL line: 1.5m/140k (plenty of room for a bunch of ssh shells)

Server:
     800mhz PIII
     512mb RAM, (I might be able to find more ram around here before 
tomorrow)
     Approx. 70GB free drive space

OS Details:
     FreeBSD 5.2.1 with Developer Install (src, docs, but no games, no 
x11)

IRC:
     irc.freenode.net
     # nycbug

--

That's all folks, see you on the wire!

Rocket,
.ike




From george  Fri Sep  3 14:44:02 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:44:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jailing fun
Message-ID: <39DA50D6-FDD9-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

we are on irc freenode #nycbug for those interested in the jailing 
games, starting Ike

g




From dlavigne6  Fri Sep  3 14:57:40 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:57:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5538 
Message-ID: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>


As usual, all feedback appreciated.

Good luck with your jailfest! I've been meaning to ask, Ike, will you be 
doing a tutorial at next year's BSDCan?

Dru




From george  Fri Sep  3 14:55:11 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:55:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5538 
In-Reply-To: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
References: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: 


On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Dru wrote:

>
> As usual, all feedback appreciated.
>
> Good luck with your jailfest! I've been meaning to ask, Ike, will you 
> be doing a tutorial at next year's BSDCan?
>

Go for it dot_ike. . .

g




From ike  Fri Sep  3 15:00:24 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:00:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5538 
In-Reply-To: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
References: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <831879B5-FDDB-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Dru,

On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Dru wrote:

>
> As usual, all feedback appreciated.
>
> Good luck with your jailfest! I've been meaning to ask, Ike, will you 
> be doing a tutorial at next year's BSDCan?
>
> Dru

I guess you mean tutorial for Jailing?  I'd love to, but with one 
caveat- I need to have enough time to at the least buy some beers for 
Poul-Henning Kamp and Robert Watson ahead of time...

:)

Rocket-
.ike




From dlavigne6  Fri Sep  3 15:11:24 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:11:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5538 
In-Reply-To: <831879B5-FDDB-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
	<831879B5-FDDB-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20040903151059.J586@dru.domain.org>



On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi Dru,
>
> On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Dru wrote:
>
>> 
>> As usual, all feedback appreciated.
>> 
>> Good luck with your jailfest! I've been meaning to ask, Ike, will you be 
>> doing a tutorial at next year's BSDCan?
>> 
>> Dru
>
> I guess you mean tutorial for Jailing?  I'd love to, but with one caveat- I 
> need to have enough time to at the least buy some beers for Poul-Henning Kamp 
> and Robert Watson ahead of time...


I'm sure Dan can arrange it ;-) I'll be the first one to sign up for the 
tutorial!

Dru



From ike  Fri Sep  3 16:39:27 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:39:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5538 
In-Reply-To: <20040903151059.J586@dru.domain.org>
References: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
	<831879B5-FDDB-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040903151059.J586@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <5951E02C-FDE9-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordemup Dru,

On Sep 3, 2004, at 3:11 PM, Dru wrote:

>> On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Dru wrote:
>>
>>> As usual, all feedback appreciated.
>>> Good luck with your jailfest! I've been meaning to ask, Ike, will 
>>> you be doing a tutorial at next year's BSDCan?
>>> Dru
>>
>> I guess you mean tutorial for Jailing?  I'd love to, but with one 
>> caveat- I need to have enough time to at the least buy some beers for 
>> Poul-Henning Kamp and Robert Watson ahead of time...
>
>
> I'm sure Dan can arrange it ;-) I'll be the first one to sign up for 
> the tutorial!
>
> Dru

Ok- sounds good.  Where do I submit stuff for it?

Best,
Isaac




From ike  Fri Sep  3 16:48:42 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:48:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5538 
In-Reply-To: <5951E02C-FDE9-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20040903145538.K586@dru.domain.org>
	<831879B5-FDDB-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20040903151059.J586@dru.domain.org>
	<5951E02C-FDE9-11D8-BAAD-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: 

Actually, nevermind,

On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:39 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Ok- sounds good.  Where do I submit stuff for it?

I just found papers at bsdcan.org 


Will email there to see what is needed to submit for a tutorial... (I 
wonder if that email goes to Dan?)  Will see...

Rocket-
.ike




From george  Sat Sep  4 01:21:57 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:21:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
Message-ID: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>



Ike and I had a long discussion this evening about ports systems. . .

Certainly a ports system that operates on multiple platforms is 
desirable.

The clear choices in the discussion are Darwin Ports v NetBSD's pkgsrc.

darwin ports only has 1790 ports at this point, while pkgsrc has 4948.

darwin ports operates on 4 platforms, pkgsrc runs on 10.

Certainly, the simplification of ports across platforms would be hugely 
beneficial, although it would be hard to argue against the quantity 
available with FBSD's ports.  Widespread use with multiple platforms 
could mean better auditing outside of that done by the developers, plus 
other benefits, of course.

Who is using Darwin ports on platforms other than OS X?  Who is using 
pkgsrc on platforms other than NetBSD?  I know Marc S had some insight 
on pkgsrc, and expressed utter delight. . .

Again, this isn't about starting a flame war, but maybe we could even 
begin to articulate the strengths and shortcomings of both ports 
systems.

g




From tux  Sat Sep  4 01:36:24 2004
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:36:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <001701c49241$1e20eba0$0600a8c0@apollo>

: 

/me tosses a few fireballs in George's direction, just to get the ball
rolling, then leaves for the weekend.





Have a good one, everyone :)


P.S. Couldn't make the meeting the other night - blame the bloody
convention.  I have the sign/banner, and I'll be posting the pics on Tuesday
when I get back.







From george  Sat Sep  4 01:31:15 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:31:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: <001701c49241$1e20eba0$0600a8c0@apollo>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<001701c49241$1e20eba0$0600a8c0@apollo>
Message-ID: 


On Sep 4, 2004, at 1:36 AM, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> : 
>
> /me tosses a few fireballs in George's direction, just to get the ball
> rolling, then leaves for the weekend.



>
>
>
>
>
> Have a good one, everyone :)
>
>
> P.S. Couldn't make the meeting the other night - blame the bloody
> convention.  I have the sign/banner, and I'll be posting the pics on 
> Tuesday
> when I get back.

Understandable. . .decent turnout of just under 30 people considering 
the situation.

Ike gave an excellent meeting on Jails, his docs on online. . .now, if 
I could only hear it in the noisy Apple Store Zoo.

g




From mspitze1  Sat Sep  4 13:39:05 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:39:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040904133905.3823462a@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:21:57 -0400
"G.Rosamond"  wrote:

> 
> 
> Ike and I had a long discussion this evening about ports systems. . .
> 
> Certainly a ports system that operates on multiple platforms is 
> desirable.
> 
> The clear choices in the discussion are Darwin Ports v NetBSD's
> pkgsrc.
> 
> darwin ports only has 1790 ports at this point, while pkgsrc has 4948.

no opinion on darwin port but some bits about pkgsrc:

1: pkg src has a package to automatically port a simple freebsd port to 
a pkgsrc port, so the potential of quick growth of port count is there:

ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/pkgtools/port2pkg/README.html

and for RPMs(did not know about this one):

ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/pkgtools/rpm2pkg/README.html

and this


2: it works on windows, supported by the company that did SFU

> 
> darwin ports operates on 4 platforms, pkgsrc runs on 10.
> 
> Certainly, the simplification of ports across platforms would be
> hugely beneficial, although it would be hard to argue against the
> quantity available with FBSD's ports.  Widespread use with multiple
> platforms could mean better auditing outside of that done by the
> developers, plus other benefits, of course.
> 
> Who is using Darwin ports on platforms other than OS X?  Who is using 
> pkgsrc on platforms other than NetBSD?  I know Marc S had some insight
> 
> on pkgsrc, and expressed utter delight. . .
> 
> Again, this isn't about starting a flame war, but maybe we could even 
> begin to articulate the strengths and shortcomings of both ports 
> systems.
> 
> g
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month



From mspitze1  Sat Sep  4 13:40:07 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:40:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: <20040904133905.3823462a@bogomips.optonline.net>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<20040904133905.3823462a@bogomips.optonline.net>
Message-ID: <20040904134007.20550b57@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:39:05 -0400
Marc Spitzer  wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:21:57 -0400
> "G.Rosamond"  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Ike and I had a long discussion this evening about ports systems. .
> > .
> > 
> > Certainly a ports system that operates on multiple platforms is 
> > desirable.
> > 
> > The clear choices in the discussion are Darwin Ports v NetBSD's
> > pkgsrc.
> > 
> > darwin ports only has 1790 ports at this point, while pkgsrc has
> > 4948.
> 
> no opinion on darwin port but some bits about pkgsrc:
> 
> 1: pkg src has a package to automatically port a simple freebsd port
> to a pkgsrc port, so the potential of quick growth of port count is
> there:
> 
> ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/pkgtools/port2pkg/README.html
> 
> and for RPMs(did not know about this one):
> 
> ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/pkgtools/rpm2pkg/README.html
> 
> and this

ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/pkgtools/README.html

> 
> 
> 2: it works on windows, supported by the company that did SFU
> 
> > 
> > darwin ports operates on 4 platforms, pkgsrc runs on 10.
> > 
> > Certainly, the simplification of ports across platforms would be
> > hugely beneficial, although it would be hard to argue against the
> > quantity available with FBSD's ports.  Widespread use with multiple
> > platforms could mean better auditing outside of that done by the
> > developers, plus other benefits, of course.
> > 
> > Who is using Darwin ports on platforms other than OS X?  Who is
> > using pkgsrc on platforms other than NetBSD?  I know Marc S had some
> > insight
> > 
> > on pkgsrc, and expressed utter delight. . .
> > 
> > Again, this isn't about starting a flame war, but maybe we could
> > even begin to articulate the strengths and shortcomings of both
> > ports systems.
> > 
> > g
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month



From jschauma  Sat Sep  4 14:03:12 2004
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:03:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040904180312.GB12054@netmeister.org>

"G. Rosamond"  wrote:
 
> Who is using Darwin ports on platforms other than OS X?  Who is using 
> pkgsrc on platforms other than NetBSD?  I know Marc S had some insight 
> on pkgsrc, and expressed utter delight. . .

I've been using pkgsrc on NetBSD, Linux (various flavors) and IRIX.
(I've also used it on Mac OS X, but not regularly at the moment.)  It
makes my life a _lot_ easier to be able to install the same set of
packages from the same source tree.

I think it's fabolous, but then again, I'm biased.

-Jan

-- 
My other computer also runs NetBSD!
			http://www.netbsd.org
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From pete  Sat Sep  4 14:02:49 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:02:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: <20040904180312.GB12054@netmeister.org>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<20040904180312.GB12054@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: 


On Sep 4, 2004, at 2:03 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote:

> "G. Rosamond"  wrote:
>
>> Who is using Darwin ports on platforms other than OS X?  Who is using
>> pkgsrc on platforms other than NetBSD?  I know Marc S had some insight
>> on pkgsrc, and expressed utter delight. . .
>
> I've been using pkgsrc on NetBSD, Linux (various flavors) and IRIX.
> (I've also used it on Mac OS X, but not regularly at the moment.)  It
> makes my life a _lot_ easier to be able to install the same set of
> packages from the same source tree.
>

hey jan,
	how's it been running on IRIX, which release do you have it running 
on?  I worked on getting it up on 6.5.23M but did not have much 
success.  Granted I did not put *too* much effort on getting it up 
(maybe like 5 hours over a couple days).  from what i saw pkgsrc looks 
like it would be a great fit for IRIX, the current state of SGI 
software management, while very flexible, is kinda lacking when 
compared to pkgsrc or even apt...

-p




From lists  Sat Sep  4 18:05:01 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 18:05:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
Message-ID: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>

You can check out the new NYCBUG style sheet by going to nycbug.org and 
picking a style from the *new* style picker in the footer.

You should remember "classic".  This was the original conceptual design.

You know "classic_wider".  It WAS the current default.

I would like to introduce "daemon".  This is a CLEAN and SIMPLE 
black-white-red theme... and is the new default.

Let me know what you think!
Michael




From george  Sat Sep  4 18:08:29 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 18:08:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
In-Reply-To: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
References: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
Message-ID: 


On Sep 4, 2004, at 6:05 PM, michael wrote:

> You can check out the new NYCBUG style sheet by going to nycbug.org 
> and picking a style from the *new* style picker in the footer.
>
> You should remember "classic".  This was the original conceptual 
> design.
>
> You know "classic_wider".  It WAS the current default.
>
> I would like to introduce "daemon".  This is a CLEAN and SIMPLE 
> black-white-red theme... and is the new default.
>
> Let me know what you think!

I think this style sheet is awesome. . .it's exactly what I had 
originally envisioned. . .

More style sheets. . .let's get funky with this. . .

g




From spork  Sat Sep  4 18:11:02 2004
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 18:11:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
In-Reply-To: 
References: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
	
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:

> I think this style sheet is awesome. . .it's exactly what I had originally 
> envisioned. . .
>
> More style sheets. . .let's get funky with this. . .

For some interesting examples of switching style sheets by just clicking a 
link and whatnot, visit this site:

http://www.zeldman.com/

Look on the right hand column.  You'll also find some incredible CSS 
resources linked there.  Jeffrey knows his CSS.

C

> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From lists  Sat Sep  4 18:28:06 2004
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 18:28:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
In-Reply-To: 
References: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
	
	
Message-ID: <413A4176.5060905@genoverly.net>

on 20040904 6:11 PM Charles Sprickman had written...


> 
> For some interesting examples of switching style sheets by just clicking 
> a link and whatnot, visit this site:
> 
> http://www.zeldman.com/
> 
> Look on the right hand column.  You'll also find some incredible CSS 
> resources linked there.  Jeffrey knows his CSS.
> 
> C
> 

No doubt, Zeldman is a CSS God.



From chsnyder  Sat Sep  4 23:28:36 2004
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:28:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
In-Reply-To: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
References: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
Message-ID: 

How about a "no style" style option for the purists? 

Site looks great, BTW.



From rick.poach.nycbug  Sat Sep  4 23:46:15 2004
From: rick.poach.nycbug (rick.poach.nycbug at nixfixers.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 23:46:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello nycbug
Message-ID: <40A02C090003E77D@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>


Hey guys,


Just found out about you and signed up today.
I live in central CT so I could make it down
to a meeting in NYC from time to time.
Running OpenBSD 3.5 & FreeBSD 4.9 at home.
Currently reading No Starch Press, Absolute OpenBSD.
Work in a solaris/windows shop, no chance at all
for migration to a BSD there :(
Like the look of the page.
It's good to finally see a BSD ug around.


Rick





From george  Sun Sep  5 00:01:37 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:01:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
In-Reply-To: <413A4176.5060905@genoverly.net>
References: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
	
	
	<413A4176.5060905@genoverly.net>
Message-ID: <20040905040137.GH14579@trot.local>

On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 06:28:06PM -0400, michael wrote:
>on 20040904 6:11 PM Charles Sprickman had written...
>
>
>>
>>For some interesting examples of switching style sheets by just clicking 
>>a link and whatnot, visit this site:
>>
>>http://www.zeldman.com/
>>
>>Look on the right hand column.  You'll also find some incredible CSS 
>>resources linked there.  Jeffrey knows his CSS.
>>
>>C
>>
>
>No doubt, Zeldman is a CSS God.


The nycbug site looks really hot!

...I do tend to like hover (separate color) or underline for links...

If you want to put in drop down menus, the code on this cat
breeder site is the best I've seen...

Roemah Koetjing Burmese & Burmillas
http://www.burmees.nl/

Source for menus is here
http://www.burmees.nl/menu/menus.htm

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Sun Sep  5 00:05:13 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 00:05:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello nycbug
In-Reply-To: <40A02C090003E77D@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
References: <40A02C090003E77D@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sep 4, 2004, at 11:46 PM, rick.poach.nycbug at nixfixers.com wrote:

>
> Hey guys,
>
>
> Just found out about you and signed up today.
> I live in central CT so I could make it down
> to a meeting in NYC from time to time.

Wonderful

> Running OpenBSD 3.5 & FreeBSD 4.9 at home.
> Currently reading No Starch Press, Absolute OpenBSD.
> Work in a solaris/windows shop, no chance at all
> for migration to a BSD there :(

You never know. . .print server, mail gateway, firewall, dns. . 
.there's lots of options. . .



> Like the look of the page.

Good. . .it's been a while, but the consensus is the new site is 
awesome. .

> It's good to finally see a BSD ug around.

Hey, NYCBUG hits its one year anniversary in January. . .we should have 
a party. . .

g




From mspitze1  Sun Sep  5 00:26:38 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 00:26:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] You've got style
In-Reply-To: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
References: <413A3C0D.6040502@genoverly.net>
Message-ID: <20040905002638.6e4c7d16@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 18:05:01 -0400
michael  wrote:

> You can check out the new NYCBUG style sheet by going to nycbug.org
> and picking a style from the *new* style picker in the footer.
> 
> You should remember "classic".  This was the original conceptual
> design.
> 
> You know "classic_wider".  It WAS the current default.
> 
> I would like to introduce "daemon".  This is a CLEAN and SIMPLE 
> black-white-red theme... and is the new default.
> 
> Let me know what you think!
> Michael

All of them look very nice, I like daemon though.

Great work BTW.

marc

> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month



From matt  Sun Sep  5 11:20:54 2004
From: matt (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 11:20:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello nycbug
In-Reply-To: 
References: <40A02C090003E77D@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
	
Message-ID: <413B2ED6.6030908@atopia.net>

I'm actually a newcomer too.  Been on the lists for about a week now.  
So far I like what I see.

My experience is pretty much only FreeBSD.  I use it at work, at home, 
etc.  All my boxes run it, except for one, which runs slackware (and 
thats my laptop and I really dont know how to use it).

So far I'm using FreeBSD for the following:

    - A router/firewall for a /22
    - A development webserver/db server and a production webserver/db server
    - My "small" webhosting server in Florida uses FreeBSD.
    - My computer @ work and my computer @ home run FreeBSD.

I really love it :)  But I'd love to learn more.  I'd like to attend all 
the meetings I can, so I'll stay posted to this list!

Best,

Matt

G.Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Sep 4, 2004, at 11:46 PM, rick.poach.nycbug at nixfixers.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>>
>> Just found out about you and signed up today.
>> I live in central CT so I could make it down
>> to a meeting in NYC from time to time.
>
>
> Wonderful
>
>> Running OpenBSD 3.5 & FreeBSD 4.9 at home.
>> Currently reading No Starch Press, Absolute OpenBSD.
>> Work in a solaris/windows shop, no chance at all
>> for migration to a BSD there :(
>
>
> You never know. . .print server, mail gateway, firewall, dns. . 
> .there's lots of options. . .
>
> 
>
>> Like the look of the page.
>
>
> Good. . .it's been a while, but the consensus is the new site is 
> awesome. .
>
>> It's good to finally see a BSD ug around.
>
>
> Hey, NYCBUG hits its one year anniversary in January. . .we should 
> have a party. . .
>
> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>
> !DSPAM:413a9080606744388116455!





From rick.poach.nycbug  Sun Sep  5 13:33:53 2004
From: rick.poach.nycbug (rick.poach.nycbug at nixfixers.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 13:33:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello nycbug
In-Reply-To: <413B2ED6.6030908@atopia.net>
Message-ID: <40A02C090003E8A6@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>



>So far I'm using FreeBSD for the following:
>
>    - A router/firewall for a /22
I'm using OpenBSD's pf for my firewall.
I got the authpf and queuing running with it as well.


>    - My computer @ work and my computer @ home run FreeBSD.

>
>I really love it :)  But I'd love to learn more. 
I mentioned I'm currently reading 'Absolute OpenBSD'
published by No Starch Press. Great book, pointed and funny.
They also publish, by the same author, 'Absolute BSD'
which is the FreeBSD version. Might be worth a look.


Rick





From george  Sun Sep  5 14:40:58 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 14:40:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] need help from strong admin...
Message-ID: <20040905184058.GJ14579@trot.local>

:)  I'm moving

As some of you know, bad air in my apartment has had an accumulative
affect on my health. The good news is the problems go away when
I leave my apartment, so I'm moving.

I found an apartment, got out of my lease and signed a new lease in the
last 5 days. This week I'm packing and reserved a cargo van for Fri &
Sat. I can handle everything accept for a few items which are light but
large; and 2 items that are heavy (wardrobe 5.5'x3.75'x1.25' and marble
1'x5'x3'). So here's where I need your help. I only need one person to
help with the large items, but if a few volunteer I'm sure I can find
a box or two that needs loading. The catch is my building requires an
elevator reservation which I've made from 9-12 AM Sat Sept 11 (I may be
able to change that). For those that help, I'll order pizza and beer;
and you can drink all my vodka (ahem, there's lot), plus you'll have
helped a good guy and will have my eternal gratitude.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Mon Sep  6 10:15:28 2004
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:15:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jail party
Message-ID: <20040906141527.GO14579@trot.local>

some random notes from the irc jail party....

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-July/007679.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-April/001328.html
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-April/001328.html
http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/submit/2004-07/msg00050.html

> ok, so I made a little wooden frame, and took this picture of jesus mary and joseph, that had
>  fiber-optic light thingies in it,
> and wired it to leds for the blinkenlights-
> so now jesus is the power led,
> mary is the wifi acitvity led,
> and joseph is the ethernet led

http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/freebsd/2003-10/0035.html
http://www.student.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/~jgoebel/FreeBSD-Jails.html
ifconfig inet tx0 add 192.168.2.9 netmask 255.255.255.255

guess the focus is on freebsd devfs vs acl for devices on 4.x and 5.x

This morning I found this re using usb keyboards on dragonfly,
http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/bugs/2004-09/msg00073.html
http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/bugs/2004-09/msg00077.html

Apparently a usb kbd was needed when the jail box got hosed, a dragonfly
1.0A cd was booted (with ps2 kbd) to fix but then it couldn't mount the
FreeBSD 5.x UFS2 filesystems. so I guess the box was reinstalled on
again.

Pete started us off with a start_jail script; but there are still some
problems to work through.
1) we can't make ip aliases on the rot box with sudo, apparently need be root
2) in the jail we can see all the partitions of the root box
3) exactly what needs be done to 'boot' the jail is in the air
4) I probably missed important things

Thanks to Ike for hosting the party! Check IRC if it's still on...
#nycbug on irc.freenode.net

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From louis  Mon Sep  6 11:28:47 2004
From: louis (Louis Bertrand)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:28:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:

> 
>
> Ike and I had a long discussion this evening about ports systems. . .
>
> Certainly a ports system that operates on multiple platforms is
> desirable.
>
> The clear choices in the discussion are Darwin Ports v NetBSD's pkgsrc.
>
> darwin ports only has 1790 ports at this point, while pkgsrc has 4948.
>
> darwin ports operates on 4 platforms, pkgsrc runs on 10.
>
> Certainly, the simplification of ports across platforms would be hugely
> beneficial, although it would be hard to argue against the quantity
> available with FBSD's ports.  Widespread use with multiple platforms
> could mean better auditing outside of that done by the developers, plus
> other benefits, of course.
>
> Who is using Darwin ports on platforms other than OS X?  Who is using
> pkgsrc on platforms other than NetBSD?  I know Marc S had some insight
> on pkgsrc, and expressed utter delight. . .
>
> Again, this isn't about starting a flame war, but maybe we could even
> begin to articulate the strengths and shortcomings of both ports
> systems.
>
>
Maybe a bit off topic, but I'm getting annoyed at the ports concept because
of the shared library aspect. If a ports tree gets a bit crufty, you start
getting problems with shared libraries falling out of sync or, if you want
to update the shared lib to build a new port you end up having to update all
the ports that depend on it (woe to you if any are broken at the time).

With faster and faster systems with lots of memory, isn't it time more ports
got built staticly? Yes, it generates huge binaries, but for big applications
(e.g. Gimp, Mozilla) the load time is small compared to the time the application
is in use.

Ciao
 --Louis  





From pete  Mon Sep  6 11:55:48 2004
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:55:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jail party
In-Reply-To: <20040906141527.GO14579@trot.local>
References: <20040906141527.GO14579@trot.local>
Message-ID: <413C8884.1000100@nomadlogic.org>

George Georgalis wrote:

>some random notes from the irc jail party....
>
>http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-July/007679.html
>http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-April/001328.html
>http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2003-April/001328.html
>http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/submit/2004-07/msg00050.html
>
>  
>
>>ok, so I made a little wooden frame, and took this picture of jesus mary and joseph, that had
>> fiber-optic light thingies in it,
>>and wired it to leds for the blinkenlights-
>>so now jesus is the power led,
>>mary is the wifi acitvity led,
>>and joseph is the ethernet led
>>    
>>
>
>http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/freebsd/2003-10/0035.html
>http://www.student.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/~jgoebel/FreeBSD-Jails.html
>ifconfig inet tx0 add 192.168.2.9 netmask 255.255.255.255
>
>guess the focus is on freebsd devfs vs acl for devices on 4.x and 5.x
>
>This morning I found this re using usb keyboards on dragonfly,
>http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/bugs/2004-09/msg00073.html
>http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/bugs/2004-09/msg00077.html
>
>Apparently a usb kbd was needed when the jail box got hosed, a dragonfly
>1.0A cd was booted (with ps2 kbd) to fix but then it couldn't mount the
>FreeBSD 5.x UFS2 filesystems. so I guess the box was reinstalled on
>again.
>
>  
>

nah, we were having problems getting the system up with a usb keyboard.  
ike threw a ps/2 keyboard on there...booted single user and fixed 
/etc/rc.conf.  it seems that /stand/sysinstall hosed the config file..


>Pete started us off with a start_jail script; but there are still some
>problems to work through.
>1) we can't make ip aliases on the rot box with sudo, apparently need be root
>2) in the jail we can see all the partitions of the root box
>3) exactly what needs be done to 'boot' the jail is in the air
>4) I probably missed important things
>  
>
i think we resolved the virtual ip issue last night too, altho i can't 
remember right now.  the one main issue that i think we need to delve 
into now (probably on our spare time) is setting up devfs rulesets.  
while i think it will be way more flexible in the long term, it was 
something that i've never had to hack on my self.  via these rule sets 
one can set access rights for various hardware devices...


>Thanks to Ike for hosting the party! Check IRC if it's still on...
>#nycbug on irc.freenode.net
>
>  
>
yea i was fun, it definatly got me motivated learning not only about 
jails but differnet way's to use memfs as well as starting to gain a 
deeper understanding of devfs.  ike and i also found some other new 
additions to /etc/rc.conf in regards to jails in FreeBSD 5.x...


-p




From bob  Mon Sep  6 12:45:42 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:45:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: 
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
Message-ID: <311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Sep 6, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Louis Bertrand wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>> Ike and I had a long discussion this evening about ports systems. . .
>>
> Maybe a bit off topic, but I'm getting annoyed at the ports concept 
> because
> of the shared library aspect. If a ports tree gets a bit crufty, you 
> start
> getting problems with shared libraries falling out of sync or, if you 
> want
> to update the shared lib to build a new port you end up having to 
> update all
> the ports that depend on it (woe to you if any are broken at the time).
>
> With faster and faster systems with lots of memory, isn't it time more 
> ports
> got built staticly? Yes, it generates huge binaries, but for big 
> applications
> (e.g. Gimp, Mozilla) the load time is small compared to the time the 
> application
> is in use.

Contrary to popular belief, the reason shared libraries exist are 
because the static components of them (constants and code, basically) 
can be shared amongst processes.  So let's say that a bunch of common 
shared libraries (GTK, X11, whatever) add up to 30mb, and that n 
processes use them (Gimp, Mozilla, GNOME, etc.).  This scenario saves 
30mb * (n -1) megs of RAM, but the tradeoff is of course "dll hell".

There's several ways around this, but the most common is to just keep 
multiple versions of libraries around or to bundle libraries with the 
applications that use them.  There is a way to conserve RAM in the 
latter case that I have read about but never seen implemented - what 
was proposed is that shared libraries should be versioned by hash only, 
so you could bundle all of your applications with all or nearly all of 
their dependencies, and still reap the benefits of shared libraries 
when it is possible.

-bob



From mspitze1  Mon Sep  6 12:50:52 2004
From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 12:50:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports systems. . .
In-Reply-To: 
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
Message-ID: <20040906125052.0e4c10b0@bogomips.optonline.net>

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:28:47 -0400 (EDT)
Louis Bertrand  wrote:

> Maybe a bit off topic, but I'm getting annoyed at the ports concept
> because of the shared library aspect. If a ports tree gets a bit
> crufty, you start getting problems with shared libraries falling out
> of sync or, if you want to update the shared lib to build a new port
> you end up having to update all the ports that depend on it (woe to
> you if any are broken at the time).

This would lead to major security issues, it would be a nightmare of
wasted time to even attempt to track accurately what you actually have
installed on you system.  Think about it you would need to know the
version of libXYZ that is compiled into each application that uses it
*and* what are the security issues for each version.  And that is just
to have some idea what is needed to even take corrective action.  It
would be admin/management by 1000 cuts.  Also this would encourage apps
to start shipping there own version of libXYZ, its all static anyway 
so why not, and that raises its own management problems.  

In some other respects it is not a bad idea and I have been bitten with
the ports tree out of date & bad port issues but all in all it works
well
enough that I am very happy with the system.

marc



From dlavigne6  Mon Sep  6 13:08:19 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:08:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>


Anyone know if there's a technical term for the deterioration of posts 
that occurs on slashdot? You know, things like Anonymous Cowards' multiple 
threads on why "BSD is dead" everytime a BSD article is posted. Or the 
general deterioration into "you don't get laid" over technical posts.

Also, I'm compiling a list of negative geek terms. So far I have "flame 
war", "troll" and "RTFM". Anyone think of any others?

Dru







From scottro  Mon Sep  6 13:37:53 2004
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:37:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20040906173753.GA6147@scottro11.homeunix.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 01:08:19PM -0400, Dru wrote:
> 
> Anyone know if there's a technical term for the deterioration of posts 
> that occurs on slashdot? You know, things like Anonymous Cowards' multiple 
> threads on why "BSD is dead" everytime a BSD article is posted. Or the 
> general deterioration into "you don't get laid" over technical posts.
> 
> Also, I'm compiling a list of negative geek terms. So far I have "flame 
> war", "troll" and "RTFM". Anyone think of any others?

There is stfu.  (Which led a very funny exchange on irc, when someone
asked what it meant, someone answered, and the original questioner
became offended.  (For those who don't know, it stands for shut the f**k
up)  

STFW, search the f***ing web.  1Us3r (I think, I'm too old to get those
right, means loser and a similar one for lamer, something like 14m3r). 

Just to name a few.

- -- 

Scott 

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Adam: You failed me. 
Spike: Let's not quibble about who failed who. 

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (FreeBSD)

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Qgg/n2cukC9E4xGnTTl5QQc=
=AjS9
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From dot.ike  Mon Sep  6 13:54:01 2004
From: dot.ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:54:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <20040906173753.GA6147@scottro11.homeunix.net>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
	<20040906173753.GA6147@scottro11.homeunix.net>
Message-ID: <204f49cf0409061054985a854@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:37:53 -0400, Scott Robbins  wrote:

> > Also, I'm compiling a list of negative geek terms. So far I have "flame
> > war", "troll" and "RTFM". Anyone think of any others?
> 
> There is stfu.  (Which led a very funny exchange on irc, when someone
> asked what it meant, someone answered, and the original questioner
> became offended.  (For those who don't know, it stands for shut the f**k
> up)
> 
> STFW, search the f***ing web.  1Us3r (I think, I'm too old to get those
> right, means loser and a similar one for lamer, something like 14m3r).
> 
> Just to name a few.
> 
> - --
> 
> Scott

I'd actually suggest that the base term 'geek' or 'nerd' is the start
of the negativity, (news for nerds...)
I'm around a lot of musicialns and artists in my regular life, and if
any of them spend the same obsessive amount of time in studio
painting, or making music, then they are viewed as creative- whereas
if I spend that time hacking unix, I'm called a geek.

In the english language, the word geek has a lot of negative baggage...

geek:

1.
    a. A person regarded as foolish, inept, or clumsy.
    b. A person who is single-minded or accomplished in scientific or
technical pursuits but is felt to be socially inept.

2.
    A carnival performer whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as
biting the head off a live chicken.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=geek


I somewhat feel that our culture brings a lot more negative vocabulary
in by starting with this vocabulary.

I'm way more fond of the term 'hacker' than I am geek:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
...
2) One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who  enjoys
programming rather than just theorizing about programming.


How do we view ourselves?  NYCBUG is regularly populated with folks
I'd hardly call socially inept or foolish, and no speaker has yet to
bit the head off of a live chicken...

my 02?

Rocket-
.ike



From dlavigne6  Mon Sep  6 14:14:43 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:14:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <204f49cf0409061054985a854@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
	<20040906173753.GA6147@scottro11.homeunix.net>
	<204f49cf0409061054985a854@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040906140902.T570@dru.domain.org>



On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Isaac Levy wrote:

> How do we view ourselves?  NYCBUG is regularly populated with folks
> I'd hardly call socially inept or foolish, and no speaker has yet to
> bit the head off of a live chicken...


I'll keep that in mind when I go to EuroBSDCon ;-)

On a side note, anyone know of someone interested in drawing a dozen or so 
cartoon-like sketches for a slide presentation? I'm afraid the pay would 
be abysmal: free exposure of their talent to the EuroBSDCon attendees and 
the Internet once the presentation is available, as well as an autographed 
copy of BSD Hacks. I can't draw. My daughter can but is too shy and up to 
this point, unconvicable.

Dru



From george  Mon Sep  6 14:42:31 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:42:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] book reviews
Message-ID: <82F1B80E-0034-11D9-9A48-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

It's high time to get some of the book reviews up online on the new 
NYCBUG site. . .

Many people who got free books from publishers agreed to post reviews.  
. .and it would certainly be helpful for Brandon and Jose and their 
book on Secure Architectures. . .if you remember, Brandon did a meeting 
for us. . .

I posted two of my reviews for BSD Hacks and the pf book. . both were 
originally on DN. . .

You can submit here. . .

http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Submission

g




From dlavigne6  Mon Sep  6 14:51:56 2004
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:51:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] book reviews
In-Reply-To: <82F1B80E-0034-11D9-9A48-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <82F1B80E-0034-11D9-9A48-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20040906145045.B570@dru.domain.org>



On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, G.Rosamond wrote:

> It's high time to get some of the book reviews up online on the new NYCBUG 
> site. . .
>
> Many people who got free books from publishers agreed to post reviews.  . 
> .and it would certainly be helpful for Brandon and Jose and their book on 
> Secure Architectures. . .if you remember, Brandon did a meeting for us. . .
>
> I posted two of my reviews for BSD Hacks and the pf book. . both were 
> originally on DN. . .
>
> You can submit here. . .
>
> http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Submission


And don't forget to send the publisher the link to your review!

Dru



From louis  Mon Sep  6 15:13:28 2004
From: louis (Louis Bertrand)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:13:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Dru wrote:

>
> Anyone know if there's a technical term for the deterioration of posts
> that occurs on slashdot? You know, things like Anonymous Cowards' multiple
> threads on why "BSD is dead" everytime a BSD article is posted. Or the
> general deterioration into "you don't get laid" over technical posts.
>
> Also, I'm compiling a list of negative geek terms. So far I have "flame
> war", "troll" and "RTFM". Anyone think of any others?
>
Bit rot: As a system gets out of date, it exhibits bit rot and doesn't
work as well as before. Probably due to its environment evolving and
getting more complex, thus showing bugs that didn't matter before.

Ciao
 --Louis  





From trish  Mon Sep  6 20:31:38 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:31:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello nycbug
In-Reply-To: <40A02C090003E77D@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
References: <40A02C090003E77D@mta8.wss.scd.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040906202349.O1367@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 rick.poach.nycbug at nixfixers.com wrote:

>
> Hey guys,
>
>
> Just found out about you and signed up today.
> I live in central CT so I could make it down
> to a meeting in NYC from time to time.
> Running OpenBSD 3.5 & FreeBSD 4.9 at home.
> Currently reading No Starch Press, Absolute OpenBSD.
> Work in a solaris/windows shop, no chance at all
> for migration to a BSD there :(

You would be very surprised at where you can sneak a little BSD in here or
there. Especially if they're openmimded to other Open Source OS's.

ABC's Enhanced TV is now mostly run on FreeBSD, and the new place I'm
working is in the process of migrating 4.x boxes to 5.x boxes.

Its kinda nice, and since I have such a rep for shaping up networks and IT
infrastructure for the last few companies I worked at (including
OSDN/Slashdot) and have a professional track record with implementing the
BSDs in heterogeneous networks, people are more willing to listen to my
opinion :)

> Like the look of the page.
> It's good to finally see a BSD ug around.
>

There was one a few years ago, geared mostly to the developer/high level
person who liked to have decent tech conversation over dinner and laptops.

However it fell apart when I moved away, mostly because nobody else was
willing to take on the organizational role. George and Co. have done an
amazing job getting this one off the ground, and I commend them greatly!

If they want all the old photos I have of the "special occasions" with
FUNY (or later known as BUNY) which involved dinner with Dag-Erling
Smorgrav and dinner with Luigi Rizzo, I'll see if I can dig out my
archives.

-Trish

-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From trish  Mon Sep  6 20:44:24 2004
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:44:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <204f49cf0409061054985a854@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
	<20040906173753.GA6147@scottro11.homeunix.net>
	<204f49cf0409061054985a854@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040906203422.F1367@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd actually suggest that the base term 'geek' or 'nerd' is the start
> of the negativity, (news for nerds...)
> I'm around a lot of musicialns and artists in my regular life, and if
> any of them spend the same obsessive amount of time in studio
> painting, or making music, then they are viewed as creative- whereas
> if I spend that time hacking unix, I'm called a geek.
>

	I'm actually a member of both groups, and always thought the "work
ethic" and "practice, practice, practice", I learned as a musician served
me well as a hacker/programmer/sysadmin type.


> In the english language, the word geek has a lot of negative baggage...
>
> I somewhat feel that our culture brings a lot more negative vocabulary
> in by starting with this vocabulary.
>

I agree, but I think its starting to turn around since the geeks shall
inherit the earth... *insert intro to Temples of Syrinx from Rush's 2112*

> I'm way more fond of the term 'hacker' than I am geek:
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
> ...
> 2) One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who  enjoys
> programming rather than just theorizing about programming.
>
>
> How do we view ourselves?  NYCBUG is regularly populated with folks
> I'd hardly call socially inept or foolish, and no speaker has yet to
> bit the head off of a live chicken...


ROTFL. Yeah, I'm actually very good socially have many good friends, and I
inspire loyalty, its actually scary when you think about it... I haven't
been around too much in the hacker/OS scene since I got married and had a
kid, but even then it was the same way... I had a tendency to rise up for
some reason. This is not the sign of a socially inept person. Though
socially inept in the computer professional world, where competence is the
#1 indicator of status is different than purely social ventures.

However all three communities I deal with in my life (computer/hacker
types, leather/queer, and musicians) all put very high value in
competence, and the way I work is to be as comptetent and authoritative
about what I am talking about as possible.

The work pays off, I won an Emmy in Interactive Television this past
month.

-Trish

-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From spork  Mon Sep  6 22:52:20 2004
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:52:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <20040906140902.T570@dru.domain.org>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
	<20040906173753.GA6147@scottro11.homeunix.net>
	<204f49cf0409061054985a854@mail.gmail.com>
	<20040906140902.T570@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Dru wrote:

> On a side note, anyone know of someone interested in drawing a dozen or so 
> cartoon-like sketches for a slide presentation? I'm afraid the pay would be 
> abysmal: free exposure of their talent to the EuroBSDCon attendees and the 
> Internet once the presentation is available, as well as an autographed copy 
> of BSD Hacks. I can't draw. My daughter can but is too shy and up to this 
> point, unconvicable.

I know technically you're not "local" to NYC, but there's a very very old 
association of web designers (some of which must dabble in print as well) 
that would be a good place to ask for this.  Check out WWWAC at:

http://www.wwwac.org/

Find an appropriate list and post away.  I'm willing to bet someone could 
do what you need quickly and with glory as the only pay. :)

Charles

> Dru
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From sunny-ml  Tue Sep  7 09:29:30 2004
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:29:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <200409070929.32384.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Monday 06 September 2004 13:08, Dru wrote:
> Anyone know if there's a technical term for the deterioration of posts
> that occurs on slashdot? You know, things like Anonymous Cowards' multiple
> threads on why "BSD is dead" everytime a BSD article is posted. Or the
> general deterioration into "you don't get laid" over technical posts.
>
> Also, I'm compiling a list of negative geek terms. So far I have "flame
> war", "troll" and "RTFM". Anyone think of any others?
>
> Dru

kiddiot ?

craptacular ?

n00b ?

Gentoo User ? (hah!)

Sunny Dubey



From pete  Tue Sep  7 09:41:36 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 09:41:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] technical terms
In-Reply-To: <200409070929.32384.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <579C5484-FE32-11D8-B293-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<311BAAD7-0024-11D9-96FE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>	<20040906130459.B570@dru.domain.org>
	<200409070929.32384.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <413DBA90.90303@nomadlogic.org>

Sunny Dubey wrote:

>
>
>kiddiot ?
>
>craptacular ?
>
>n00b ?
>
>Gentoo User ? (hah!)
>
>Sunny Dubey
>  
>

i think being called a Sunny Dubey would probably be the worst of the lot ;p

-p





From george  Tue Sep  7 14:08:18 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:08:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] space for Kirk McKusick
Message-ID: 

We are having a problem getting adequate space for the Oct 16th Kirk 
McKusick meeting.  It's a Saturday, and we need space for about 80 
people for the afternoon.

If anybody had any ideas, please get them to me asap.

B&N is booked up, and our currently available spaces are inadequate for 
reasons of space (Tekserve) or noisiness (Apple Store).

g




From ycui  Tue Sep  7 14:24:48 2004
From: ycui (Paul Cui)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:24:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple hardware..
Message-ID: <200409071424.48124.ycui@bloomberg.com>

hi. all. 
does anyone know where in the city is a good place to get apple hardware.
I remember someone in this list mentioned this place where we can actually
get some discounts. but unfortunately, I missed that info..

thanks. -Paul




From george  Tue Sep  7 14:35:48 2004
From: george (G.Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:35:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple hardware..
In-Reply-To: <200409071424.48124.ycui@bloomberg.com>
References: <200409071424.48124.ycui@bloomberg.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sep 7, 2004, at 2:24 PM, Paul Cui wrote:

> hi. all.
> does anyone know where in the city is a good place to get apple 
> hardware.
> I remember someone in this list mentioned this place where we can 
> actually
> get some discounts. but unfortunately, I missed that info..
>


Leslie Schwartz

leslie at apple.com or leslies at apple.com

g




From pete  Tue Sep  7 14:36:16 2004
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:36:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple hardware..
In-Reply-To: <200409071424.48124.ycui@bloomberg.com>
References: <200409071424.48124.ycui@bloomberg.com>
Message-ID: <413DFFA0.80700@nomadlogic.org>

Paul Cui wrote:

>hi. all. 
>does anyone know where in the city is a good place to get apple hardware.
>I remember someone in this list mentioned this place where we can actually
>get some discounts. but unfortunately, I missed that info..
>
>  
>

the two large operations in the city are the apple store in soho and 
tekserve (www.tekserve.com) on 23rd and 6th.  apple's prices tend not to 
differ that much between resellers, altho it is still worth a look.  
from personal experience tekserve tends to have more 3rd party harware 
for you mac's as well (firewire cables, hard drives, memory etc..) than 
the apple store, but often you can get better prices for stuff like that 
off the 'net.  as far as discounts go I believe we had something worked 
out with Apple but the details escape me right now.

-pete




From bob  Tue Sep  7 17:11:28 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:11:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation facility in/around NYC
Message-ID: <7BB7FED4-0112-11D9-9892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>

This is semi-offtopic, but a client of mine needs to colo four Windows 
development servers.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a cost 
effective place to do this that has a good track record?

-bob



From alex  Tue Sep  7 17:16:50 2004
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:16:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation facility in/around NYC
In-Reply-To: <7BB7FED4-0112-11D9-9892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> This is semi-offtopic, but a client of mine needs to colo four Windows
> development servers.  Does anyone have any recommendations for a cost
> effective place to do this that has a good track record?
I own/run a hosting/colo/dsl provider. We have our own 7500 sqft
datacenter at 55 Broad St, with redundant genset/HVAC/UPS backup, our own
dark fiber connectivity to two major carrier hotels (25 Broadway and 60
Hudson), and gigabit links to XO, Cogent, Nlayer and MFN. 

For windows users, we strongly suggest "KVM-Over-IP" (essentially, you
have access to keyboard/monitor whether or not network is up). Altogether,
colocation for 4 machines (up to mini-tower size) including KVM/IP service
is 200$/month.


--
Alex Pilosov    | DSL, Colocation, Hosting Services
President       | alex at pilosoft.com    (800) 710-7031
Pilosoft, Inc.  | http://www.pilosoft.com




From matador-gtabug  Wed Sep  8 12:57:47 2004
From: matador-gtabug (matador-gtabug at matadorsplace.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:57:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re : NYCBug.org
Message-ID: <39848.199.212.243.14.1094662667.squirrel@199.212.243.14>

Hey,

Good job on new website.

Since we're all part of the open source movement to varying degrees ; can
gtabug.ca 'borrow' the source code for our website ?

Cheers,

Matador






From joshmccormack  Wed Sep  8 13:12:01 2004
From: joshmccormack (joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com)
Date: Wed,  8 Sep 2004 19:12:01 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_Re_:_NYCBug=2Eorg?=
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1C561C05h3-0002Fu@mrelay.perfora.net>


matador-gtabug at matadorsplace.com wrote on 09/08/2004, 06:57:47 PM:
> Hey,
> 
> Good job on new website.
> 
> Since we're all part of the open source movement to varying degrees ; can
> gtabug.ca 'borrow' the source code for our website ?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Matador

Today I'm at an onsite freelance job and am looking at the site on W2K
IE 5.5. With the Daemon or classic wider style sheets none of the nav
links are visible, though they work - if you know where they are.

Josh



From bob  Wed Sep  8 13:18:08 2004
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:18:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re : NYCBug.org
In-Reply-To: <0MKz5u-1C561C05h3-0002Fu@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz5u-1C561C05h3-0002Fu@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <0DDA7F47-01BB-11D9-81FD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>


On Sep 8, 2004, at 1:12 PM,  
 wrote:

>
> matador-gtabug at matadorsplace.com wrote on 09/08/2004, 06:57:47 PM:
>> Hey,
>>
>> Good job on new website.
>>
>> Since we're all part of the open source movement to varying degrees ; 
>> can
>> gtabug.ca 'borrow' the source code for our website ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Matador
>
> Today I'm at an onsite freelance job and am looking at the site on W2K
> IE 5.5. With the Daemon or classic wider style sheets none of the nav
> links are visible, though they work - if you know where they are.

I can confirm this with Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 
5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)

-bob




From ike  Wed Sep  8 17:15:29 2004
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:15:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jail party
In-Reply-To: <413C8884.1000100@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20040906141527.GO14579@trot.local>
	<413C8884.1000100@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <35C9B7FE-01DC-11D9-B4F2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey Everyone,

I sent this message monday, but I stupidly attached an image so it got  
dropped.
The image is now available here:

https://diversaform.com/temp/JailingParty.jpg


--
Hi All,

George G. and Pete W. already gave some reports, but I wanted to  
confirm: we ran amok at the jail(8) Virtual Installfest.  Everyone who  
showed up learned something, taught something, broke something, and we  
did some FreeBSD Jailing.

I think Pete even got a jail running in a memory filesystem, but we  
were all asleep or afk by then!

--
With that, here's some stuff I wanted to make note of, which there  
isn't enough good howto documentation out there, (though the man pages  
rock, as expected on a BSD):

FreeBSD 5.x has a new /dev facility, (actually, it's in later 4.x  
series too), mount_devfs.

The old way, one would want to remove/restrict the built devfs which  
one builds for jails in 4.x.
Setting system immutable flags (schg), and restricting access rebooting  
with a high SecureLevel.

Well, under 5.x we now don't 'make' a special devfs, we mount it- just  
like the root system- using mount_devfs.  So, the mount_devfs facility  
is pretty cool- it allows devices to only be accessed according to  
rulesets,
"The devfs(5) rule subsystem provides a way for the administrator of a   
system to control the attributes of DEVFS nodes."  So, an administrator  
can much more flexibly control device access from jails- actually  
giving special access if necessary, instead of just killing it all...

With flexibility, comes complexity, we all nodded and agreed.  But this  
is all pretty cool stuff- and we learned more about FreeBSD 5 devices  
than I think any of us really understood (I'll speak for myself, than I  
understood ).

So with man jail, man devfs is wildly important to understand jailing  
security in FreeBSD 5.x:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi? 
query=devfs&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+5.2.1- 
RELEASE+and+Ports&format=html


--
Anyhow,

Beyond that we were plagued by one funky acting nic, a failing old  
keyboard, and a nice sunny holiday weekend- and we all had a great  
time.  More Ad-Hock Virtual Installfests and hack-a-thons to come  
folks?!!?

Rocket-
.ike







For the record, some jailing party wraps:

/etc/motd
----------------------------------------------------
Copyright (c) 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994
         The Regents of the University of California.  All rights  
reserved.

FreeBSD 5.2.1-RELEASE (GENERIC) #0: Mon Feb 23 20:45:55 GMT 2004
piegon.brooklyn.informatikburo.net

Welcome to FreeBSD!

        _
  _ __ (_) ___  __ _  ___  _ __
| '_ \| |/ _ \/ _` |/ _ \| '_ \
| |_) | |  __/ (_| | (_) | | | |
| .__/|_|\___|\__, |\___/|_| |_|
|_|           |___/


let's get to jailing!!
example jails are in /usr/local/jails
-->IKE suggests we use "template" are our jail world
-->nomadlogic has setup a one liner to start up a
    jail in /usr/local/bin/jail_make.sh
-->Have Fun!
----------------------------------------------------

piegon:/home/ike ike$ last
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Tue Sep  7 10:42   still  
logged in
geo              ttyp1    68.193.227.37    Tue Sep  7 10:03 - 10:06   
(00:02)
geo              ttyp4    68.193.227.37    Mon Sep  6 23:23 - 08:24   
(09:01)
nomadlogic       ttyp3    66.245.180.52    Mon Sep  6 22:42   still  
logged in
ike              ttyp2    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 22:35   still  
logged in
geo              ttyp1    68.193.227.37    Mon Sep  6 22:26 - 08:25   
(09:59)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 21:29   still  
logged in
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 11:06 - 12:55   
(01:48)
nomadlogic       ttyp2    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 11:06 - 12:55   
(01:48)
nomadlogic       ttyp2    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 10:53 - 11:06   
(00:12)
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 10:49 - 11:06   
(00:17)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 10:48 - 21:29   
(10:40)
reboot           ~                         Mon Sep  6 10:48
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 10:46
nomadlogic       ttyp2    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 10:11 - 10:44   
(00:32)
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 10:09 - shutdown   
(00:36)
nomadlogic       ttyp2    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 09:50 - 09:56   
(00:06)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 09:20 - shutdown   
(01:25)
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 08:55 - 09:56   
(01:00)
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 06:38 - 07:30   
(00:52)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 06:37 - 09:17   
(02:39)
ike              ttyv0                     Mon Sep  6 06:36 - shutdown   
(04:09)
reboot           ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:36
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:34
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Mon Sep  6 06:33 - 06:33   
(00:00)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 06:32 - shutdown   
(00:01)
ike              ttyv0                     Mon Sep  6 06:23 - shutdown   
(00:10)
reboot           ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:22
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:20
ike              ttyv0                     Mon Sep  6 06:15 - shutdown   
(00:05)
reboot           ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:15
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:12
ike              ttyv0                     Mon Sep  6 06:08 - shutdown   
(00:04)
reboot           ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:08
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 06:04
ike              ttyv0                     Mon Sep  6 05:56 - shutdown   
(00:08)
reboot           ~                         Mon Sep  6 05:56
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 01:52
shutdown         ~                         Mon Sep  6 00:37
ike              ttyp3    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 00:21 - shutdown   
(00:15)
ike              ttyp2    192.168.1.22     Mon Sep  6 00:10 - shutdown   
(00:26)
geo              ttyp1    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 21:52 - 00:32   
(02:39)
ray              ttyp1    flingpoo.com     Sun Sep  5 13:06 - 14:49   
(01:42)
nomadlogic       ttyp6    69.86.66.183     Sun Sep  5 08:52 - 10:38   
(01:46)
geo              ttyp5    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 08:36 - 00:32   
(15:56)
ike              ttyp4    192.168.1.22     Sun Sep  5 08:28 - shutdown   
(16:09)
nomadlogic       ttyp3    69.86.66.183     Sun Sep  5 08:27 - 10:38   
(02:10)
geo              ttyp2    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 08:16 - 18:49   
(10:32)
nomadlogic       ttyp1    69.86.66.183     Sun Sep  5 08:15 - 10:35   
(02:19)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Sun Sep  5 08:15 - shutdown   
(16:22)
reboot           ~                         Sun Sep  5 08:14
shutdown         ~                         Sun Sep  5 08:12
geo              ttyp4    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 07:05 - shutdown   
(01:06)
geo              ttyp4    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 06:46 - 07:05   
(00:19)
nomadlogic       ttyp5    66.245.180.52    Sun Sep  5 06:30 - shutdown   
(01:42)
geo              ttyp6    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 06:28 - 07:23   
(00:55)
nomadlogic       ttyp5    66.245.180.52    Sun Sep  5 06:21 - 06:29   
(00:07)
geo              ttyp4    68.193.227.37    Sun Sep  5 06:20 - 06:30   
(00:10)
nomadlogic       ttyp3    66.245.180.52    Sun Sep  5 06:13 - 07:21   
(01:07)
ray              ttyp2    flingpoo.com     Sun Sep  5 02:00 - shutdown   
(06:12)
nomadlogic       ttyp4    69.86.66.183     Sun Sep  5 00:38 - 00:47   
(00:08)
ray              ttyp3    flingpoo.com     Sun Sep  5 00:33 - 02:00   
(01:27)
nomadlogic       ttyp2    69.86.66.183     Sun Sep  5 00:29 - 01:51   
(01:22)
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Sun Sep  5 00:20 - shutdown   
(07:51)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Sat Sep  4 13:10 - shutdown   
(19:02)
nomadlogic       ttyp0    69.86.66.183     Sat Sep  4 06:44 - 08:15   
(01:31)
nomadlogic       ttyp0    69.86.66.183     Sat Sep  4 06:43 - 06:44   
(00:00)
nomadlogic       ttyp3    69.86.66.183     Sat Sep  4 06:41 - 08:15   
(01:33)
nomadlogic       ttyp0    69.86.66.183     Sat Sep  4 06:18 - 06:43   
(00:24)
ike              ttyp4    151.202.91.232   Sat Sep  4 03:41 - 09:20   
(05:39)
nomadlogic       ttyp3    66.245.180.52    Sat Sep  4 03:10 - 04:14   
(01:04)
nomadlogic       ttyp3    66.245.180.52    Sat Sep  4 02:33 - 03:10   
(00:37)
ike              ttyp2    151.202.91.232   Sat Sep  4 00:53 - 09:20   
(08:27)
ike              ttyp2    192.168.1.223    Sat Sep  4 00:52 - 00:52   
(00:00)
ike              ttyp1    151.202.91.232   Sat Sep  4 00:49 - 08:39   
(07:50)
nomadlogic       ttyp0    63.211.44.194    Fri Sep  3 22:32 - 04:14   
(05:41)
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 12:48 - 00:46   
(11:57)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 12:41 - 22:19   
(09:38)
ike              ttyv0                     Fri Sep  3 12:39 - shutdown  
(1+19:33)
reboot           ~                         Fri Sep  3 12:37
shutdown         ~                         Fri Sep  3 12:35
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 12:35 - shutdown   
(00:00)
ike              ttyp2    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 08:02 - shutdown   
(04:33)
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 08:00 - 08:02   
(00:01)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 05:48 - shutdown   
(06:47)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 05:46 - 05:48   
(00:01)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 01:48 - 03:11   
(01:23)
beren1hand       ttyp1    164.107.250.138  Fri Sep  3 01:44 - 02:03   
(00:19)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Fri Sep  3 01:37 - 01:47   
(00:10)
ike              ttyp4    192.168.1.22     Thu Sep  2 13:22 - 13:23   
(00:01)
ike              ttyp3    192.168.1.22     Thu Sep  2 12:47 - 01:01   
(12:13)
ike              ttyp2    192.168.1.22     Thu Sep  2 01:33 - 01:01   
(23:27)
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Thu Sep  2 00:58 - 01:01  
(1+00:02)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Thu Sep  2 00:58 - 01:01  
(1+00:02)
ike              ttyv0                     Thu Sep  2 00:56 - shutdown  
(1+11:39)
reboot           ~                         Thu Sep  2 00:46
shutdown         ~                         Thu Sep  2 00:44
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Thu Sep  2 00:07 - shutdown   
(00:37)
ike              ttyv0                     Thu Sep  2 00:07 - shutdown   
(00:37)
reboot           ~                         Thu Sep  2 00:07
shutdown         ~                         Thu Sep  2 00:05
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Wed Sep  1 23:40 - shutdown   
(00:24)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Wed Sep  1 23:35 - shutdown   
(00:29)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 23:35 - shutdown   
(00:30)
reboot           ~                         Wed Sep  1 23:32
shutdown         ~                         Wed Sep  1 23:30
ike              ttyp2    192.168.1.100    Wed Sep  1 23:30 - 23:30   
(00:00)
ike              ttyp1    192.168.1.22     Wed Sep  1 23:17 - shutdown   
(00:12)
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Wed Sep  1 22:46 - shutdown   
(00:43)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 21:11 - shutdown   
(02:18)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 21:10 - 21:11   
(00:01)
reboot           ~                         Wed Sep  1 21:03
shutdown         ~                         Wed Sep  1 21:01
ike              ttyp0    192.168.1.22     Wed Sep  1 20:58 - 21:00   
(00:02)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 20:54 - shutdown   
(00:06)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 20:53 - 20:54   
(00:00)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 20:52 - 20:53   
(00:01)
ike              ttyv0                     Wed Sep  1 20:50 - 20:52   
(00:01)
reboot           ~                         Wed Sep  1 20:47

wtmp begins Wed Sep  1 20:47:26 EDT 2004
piegon:/home/ike ike$
----------------------------------------------------

piegon:/home/ike ike$ dmesg
Copyright (c) 1992-2004 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
         The Regents of the University of California. All rights  
reserved.
FreeBSD 5.2.1-RELEASE #0: Mon Feb 23 20:45:55 GMT 2004
     root at wv1u.btc.adaptec.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
Preloaded elf kernel "/boot/kernel/kernel" at 0xc0a35000.
Preloaded elf module "/boot/kernel/acpi.ko" at 0xc0a3526c.
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
CPU: Intel Pentium III (851.94-MHz 686-class CPU)
   Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0x68a  Stepping = 10
    
Features=0x383f9ff
real memory  = 536608768 (511 MB)
avail memory = 511578112 (487 MB)
Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled
npx0: [FAST]
npx0:  on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
acpi0:  on motherboard
pcibios: BIOS version 2.10
Using $PIR table, 7 entries at 0xc00f2a80
acpi0: Power Button (fixed)
Timecounter "ACPI-safe" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000
acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x408-0x40b on acpi0
acpi_cpu0:  on acpi0
pcib0:  port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0
pci0:  on pcib0
pcib0: slot 7 INTD is routed to irq 5
pcib0: slot 12 INTA is routed to irq 3
pcib0: slot 13 INTA is routed to irq 3
pcib0: slot 14 INTA is routed to irq 10
pcib0: slot 15 INTA is routed to irq 11
isab0:  at device 7.0 on pci0
isa0:  on isab0
atapci0:  port 0xffa0-0xffaf at device  
7.1 on pci0
ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0
ata0: [MPSAFE]
ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0
ata1: [MPSAFE]
uhci0:  port 0xef80-0xef9f irq  
5 at device 7.2 on pci0
usb0:  on uhci0
usb0: USB revision 1.0
uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
pci0:  at device 7.3 (no driver attached)
fxp0:  port 0xef00-0xef3f mem  
0xfea00000-0xfeafffff,0xfebfe000-0xfebfefff irq 3 at device 12.0 on  
pci0
fxp0: Ethernet address 00:02:b3:b1:b0:70
miibus0:  on fxp0
inphy0:  on miibus0
inphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto
fxp1:  port 0xee80-0xeebf mem  
0xfe800000-0xfe8fffff,0xfebfd000-0xfebfdfff irq 3 at device 13.0 on  
pci0
fxp1: Ethernet address 00:02:b3:b1:b0:71
miibus1:  on fxp1
inphy1:  on miibus1
inphy1:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto
twe0: <3ware 7000 series Storage Controller. Driver version  
1.50.00.000> port 0xefa0-0xefaf irq 10 at device 14.0 on pci0
twe0: 4 ports, Firmware FE6X 1.02.28.053, BIOS BE6X 1.07.02.005
pci0:  at device 15.0 (no driver attached)
acpi_button0:  on acpi0
atkbdc0:  port 0x64,0x60 irq 1 on acpi0
atkbd0:  flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0
kbd0 at atkbd0
sio0 port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on acpi0
sio0: type 16550A
orm0: