From mspitzer at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 13:22:47 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 13:22:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] get your shmoocon 2008 tickets
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711011022t653a19fbp4e430fb84ff28845@mail.gmail.com>

There are still some left in the first batch

marc

-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From nycbug at cyth.net  Thu Nov  1 14:43:04 2007
From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:43:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Letter to itojun's family
Message-ID: <20071101184327.GX29782@cybertron.cyth.net>

Dear friends of Jun-ichiro "itojun" Itoh Hagino,

We have prepared a condolence letter from NYC*BUG to itojun's family.
To show the impact itojun has had on our community and to show that
these are real people behind the letter, we are putting NYC*BUG
members' names in the signature of this letter.  If you are interested
in signing this letter as a member of NYC*BUG, please reply to me
privately and I will add it to the bottom of the letter.

The letter to be sent is as follows:




Dear Jun-ichiro "itojun" Itoh Hagino's family,
 
We are very sorry to hear of itojun's passing and want to offer our
condolences.  Many of us are at a loss for words at this time, but
our thoughts are with your family during this difficult time.
Itojun's many contributions will be remembered.  We will miss his
enthusiasm and kindness.
 
Our deepest sympathy,
NYC*BUG
(New York City *BSD User Group)


From msams992000 at yahoo.com.au  Fri Nov  2 16:30:31 2007
From: msams992000 at yahoo.com.au (Mark Sams)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:30:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] greytrapping without greylisting?
Message-ID: <999298.23466.qm@web36114.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Many clients panic the minute an email doesn't arrive immediately after someone on the phone sends it to them. For that reason I have hesitated in implementing grey listing. I am interested in grey trapping as I think it would help cut down on spam without causing unwanted delays with emails. However, I don't see how you can have one without the other. Is it possible to configure spamd for grey trapping but not grey listing?

Thanks in advance.    




      
National Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week. Download your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-bingo-night/




From okan at demirmen.com  Fri Nov  2 16:41:51 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:41:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] greytrapping without greylisting?
In-Reply-To: <999298.23466.qm@web36114.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <999298.23466.qm@web36114.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071102204151.GL587@clam.khaoz.org>

On Fri 2007.11.02 at 13:30 -0700, Mark Sams wrote:
> Many clients panic the minute an email doesn't arrive immediately after someone on the phone sends it to them. For that reason I have hesitated in implementing grey listing. I am interested in grey trapping as I think it would help cut down on spam without causing unwanted delays with emails. However, I don't see how you can have one without the other. Is it possible to configure spamd for grey trapping but not grey listing?
> 

if you don't want grey/black listing, you might just want to use, for
example in sendmail, the access database (insert whatever equals in the
sendmail replacements).  trapping is of little use without greylisting -
why 'trap' an ip address when you don't care about the ip the next time
around?


From msams992000 at yahoo.com.au  Fri Nov  2 17:25:09 2007
From: msams992000 at yahoo.com.au (Mark Sams)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:25:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] greytrapping without greylisting?
Message-ID: <830007.75740.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
> if you don't want grey/black listing, you might just want to use, for
> example in sendmail, the access database (insert whatever equals in the
> sendmail replacements).  trapping is of little use without
> greylisting
> 
 -
> why 'trap' an ip address when you don't care about the ip the next time
> around?



Hi,



Sorry I am such a noob at all this grey stuff that I am probably asking
the wrong thing, or maybe you gave me the answer and I just don't
understand. I have an email address



fishk at domain.com



(that never existed and is unused - its not a valid address) that receives spam from spambots
every day.  I would like to blacklist/trap the IP address that sent
that email - as that same IP is sending hundreds of spam messages as well. I believe this is exactly what greytrapping does, but then
I would have to enable greylisting which would cause all "normal"
client emails to be delayed the first time when greylisting issues the
451 message. My clients wouldn't understand why some of their inbound emails are delayed.



Is there a simple way to blacklist/trap the ip that is sending to fishk at domain.com and I don't need greytrapping at all?



Thanks again.











      
National Bingo Night. Play along for the chance to win $10,000 every week. Download your gamecard now at Yahoo!7 TV. http://au.blogs.yahoo.com/national-bingo-night/




From okan at demirmen.com  Fri Nov  2 18:04:39 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:04:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] greytrapping without greylisting?
In-Reply-To: <830007.75740.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <830007.75740.qm@web36104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071102220439.GM587@clam.khaoz.org>

On Fri 2007.11.02 at 14:25 -0700, Mark Sams wrote:
> Sorry I am such a noob at all this grey stuff that I am probably asking
> the wrong thing, or maybe you gave me the answer and I just don't
> understand. I have an email address
> 
> fishk at domain.com
> 
> (that never existed and is unused - its not a valid address) that receives spam from spambots
> every day.  I would like to blacklist/trap the IP address that sent
> that email - as that same IP is sending hundreds of spam messages as well. I believe this is exactly what greytrapping does, but then
> I would have to enable greylisting which would cause all "normal"
> client emails to be delayed the first time when greylisting issues the
> 451 message. My clients wouldn't understand why some of their inbound emails are delayed.
> 
> Is there a simple way to blacklist/trap the ip that is sending to fishk at domain.com and I don't need greytrapping at all?

well, not with OpenBSD's spamd, or any port/derivative of it. there may
be a milter of sorts out there that may do this.

but if you want to do something on your own; you could use the access_db
to reject the mail, parse the mail log every X minutes (or with sec to
do realtime) and look for rejected mails and grab the ip.  toss that in
a pf table and now you can block on it; then use pfctl's expire option
to limit how long that will stick around.

note i mentioned "sec" - this is a VERY handy tool, and something that
would be able to take care of all these steps for you (apart from 1000's
of other uses).

there are other ways to do this, e.g. using relaydb and some other
combinations of hacks.

i don't know of a "standard"/"boxed" way of doing what you want.

report back if you come up with a nifty solution.

cheers,
okan


From ike at lesmuug.org  Mon Nov  5 09:03:02 2007
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:03:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Condolences from NYCBUG for Itojun
Message-ID: <A486F9B7-83DB-4E40-AE93-18F8AC0A3323@lesmuug.org>

To the family, friends, and close colleagues of Jun-ichiro "itojun"  
Itoh Hagino,

The people of the New York City *BSD Users Group are grieved with  
itojun's passing, and want to offer our condolences for your loss.

Itojun's work in the worldwide UNIX community, his work with the IETF,  
Internet Protocols, and his clear passion for barrier-free  
availability to all of his work- has directly touched the hearts of  
millions of people worldwide.  The work of itojun was carried out in a  
true spirit of progress and humanity.  He stood as a powerful example  
of the best people in the worldwide communities in Free and Open  
Source software.

Itojun was a strong leader in the international UNIX and Open Source  
communities, he led by example, sharing his hard work and creativity.   
In his passing, in the spirit of creativity, his work will continue to  
inspire, affect, and connect communities worldwide- far outside of  
computing and technology.

The work of few individuals will reach this far, and the spirit (and  
dedicated quality) of itojun's work will affect millions.

The wide scope of his IPv6 work, through the Kame/WIDE projects, means  
his work will directly, and positively, affect the lives of most  
people on earth for the future.

Our sadness is tempered by the warm intentions of Itojun's profound  
work, known not only by his writings, but in existence of the code he  
left for all of us.

Itojun's many contributions will be remembered as they enrich our work  
and lives, we will miss his enthusiasm and kindness.

Our deepest sympathy,

NYC*BUG (New York City *BSD User Group)

Avi Faitelewicz
Dru Lavigne
Gene Cronk
George Rosamond
Isaac (.ike) Levy
Jesse Callaway
Okan Demirmen
Pete Wright
Ray Lai
Steven Kreuzer
Tim Jacques
...and all 170 members of NYC*BUG.




--
Junichiro (Itojun) Itoh Hagino ????????????? 
??

??????BSD??????????Itojun????? 
????????????????????
Itojun??????????UNIX?????????? 
??IETF???????????????????? 
???????????????????????? 
?????????????????Itojun????? 
???????????????????????? 
??????????????????????? 
???????????????????????? 
??????????

Itojun??????????UNIX????????? 
???????????????????????? 
???????????????????????? 
??????????????????????? 
???????????????????????? 
???????????????????????? 
?????

????????????????????Itojun?? 
???????????????????????? 
???????

???????Itojun????Kame/WiIDE??????? 
???????????????????????? 
??????????

???????????????????????? 
????????????Itojun?????????? 
???????????????????
Itojun?????????????????????? 
???????????????????????? 
????????????

Our deepest sympathy,

NYC*BUG (New York City *BSD User Group)

Avi Faitelewicz
Dru Lavigne
Gene Cronk
George Rosamond
Isaac (.ike) Levy
Jesse Callaway
Okan Demirmen
Pete Wright
Ray Lai
Steven Kreuzer
???NYC*BUG ?????170 ???????




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From ike at lesmuug.org  Mon Nov  5 10:34:21 2007
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:34:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Condolences from NYCBUG for Itojun
In-Reply-To: <A486F9B7-83DB-4E40-AE93-18F8AC0A3323@lesmuug.org>
References: <A486F9B7-83DB-4E40-AE93-18F8AC0A3323@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <B38E9498-CED3-4405-A9DB-ACA6D5193386@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

Sorry to top-post, but I feel it's appropriate here.

With respect for itojun, I'd like to please ask this thread be closed,  
*excepting* any news, urls, or info people would like to share from  
the memorial service or funeral in Japan this week.

This is the letter Ray had solicited for names last week, and to my  
understanding, these emails will be forwarded to friends, family, and  
colleagues at the memorial service.
(Ray had mail issues this weekend, so I ended up being the one to send  
it off- thank you Ray for putting it together.  And special thanks to  
my friend Kiyo for providing the Japanese translation.)

Ray will also be starting us off with a moment of silence for itojun  
at the meeting Wednesday, especially relevant since this will be our  
second consecutive meeting on IPv6.

Best,
.ike





On Nov 5, 2007, at 9:03 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> To the family, friends, and close colleagues of Jun-ichiro "itojun"  
> Itoh Hagino,
>
> The people of the New York City *BSD Users Group are grieved with  
> itojun's passing, and want to offer our condolences for your loss.
>
> Itojun's work in the worldwide UNIX community, his work with the  
> IETF, Internet Protocols, and his clear passion for barrier-free  
> availability to all of his work- has directly touched the hearts of  
> millions of people worldwide.  The work of itojun was carried out in  
> a true spirit of progress and humanity.  He stood as a powerful  
> example of the best people in the worldwide communities in Free and  
> Open Source software.
>
> Itojun was a strong leader in the international UNIX and Open Source  
> communities, he led by example, sharing his hard work and  
> creativity.  In his passing, in the spirit of creativity, his work  
> will continue to inspire, affect, and connect communities worldwide-  
> far outside of computing and technology.
>
> The work of few individuals will reach this far, and the spirit (and  
> dedicated quality) of itojun's work will affect millions.
>
> The wide scope of his IPv6 work, through the Kame/WIDE projects,  
> means his work will directly, and positively, affect the lives of  
> most people on earth for the future.
>
> Our sadness is tempered by the warm intentions of Itojun's profound  
> work, known not only by his writings, but in existence of the code  
> he left for all of us.
>
> Itojun's many contributions will be remembered as they enrich our  
> work and lives, we will miss his enthusiasm and kindness.
>
> Our deepest sympathy,
>
> NYC*BUG (New York City *BSD User Group)
>
> Avi Faitelewicz
> Dru Lavigne
> Gene Cronk
> George Rosamond
> Isaac (.ike) Levy
> Jesse Callaway
> Okan Demirmen
> Pete Wright
> Ray Lai
> Steven Kreuzer
> Tim Jacques
> ...and all 170 members of NYC*BUG.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Junichiro (Itojun) Itoh Hagino ????????????? 
> ??
>
> ??????BSD??????????Itojun???? 
> ?????????????????????
> Itojun??????????UNIX?????????? 
> ??IETF???????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????Itojun??? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????
>
> Itojun??????????UNIX????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ?????????
>
> ????????????????????Itojun? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ?????????
>
> ???????Itojun????Kame/WiIDE??????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ???????????
>
> ?????????????????????? 
> ??????????????Itojun??????? 
> ??????????????????????
> Itojun????????????????????? 
> ??????????????????????? 
> ??????????????
>
> Our deepest sympathy,
>
> NYC*BUG (New York City *BSD User Group)
>
> Avi Faitelewicz
> Dru Lavigne
> Gene Cronk
> George Rosamond
> Isaac (.ike) Levy
> Jesse Callaway
> Okan Demirmen
> Pete Wright
> Ray Lai
> Steven Kreuzer
> ???NYC*BUG ?????170 ???????
>
>
>
>
> <nycbug_banner.gif>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Nov  5 12:54:27 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:54:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Wednesday meeting reminder
Message-ID: <472F58D3.6040108@ceetonetechnology.com>

No, I'm not reminding people on talk about the IPv6 workshop being 
Wednesday.  That's what the announce list is for.

I do want to remind anyone who needs to setup any hardware to arrive 
early at the meeting so that you can be up and running.

And if you'd like to be one of those people, please contact admin@ to setup.

George


From jonathan at kc8onw.net  Tue Nov  6 01:23:29 2007
From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (jonathan at kc8onw.net)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:23:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Regular expressions
Message-ID: <22329.62.68.66.156.1194330209.squirrel@www.kc8onw.net>

Hello all,

I see to remember there being a way to specify that part of the condition
you used to create the match is not returned when the regex returns.  I'm
trying to return just the number from the "length: 40" portion of this
line.

"IP (tos 0x0, ttl  47, id 52246, offset 0, flags [none], proto: TCP (6),
length: 40)"

I'm currently using  grep -Eo "length: ([[:digit:]]{2,4})" but that
includes "length: " in the output.

If someone can give me the right term or concept to search for I'll do the
legwork I'm just out of ideas on what to search for and didn't see
anything relevant in the man pages.

Thanks,
Jonathan Stewart

P.S. There is probably a better way but the main goal of this is to
monitor bandwidth usage by IP on a pflog device.  I'll probably do most of
the work in Python I'm just prototyping in the shell right now.




From mspitzer at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 02:20:25 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 02:20:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Regular expressions
In-Reply-To: <22329.62.68.66.156.1194330209.squirrel@www.kc8onw.net>
References: <22329.62.68.66.156.1194330209.squirrel@www.kc8onw.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711052320w6f5ead3ci6170eac20ffe70c@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/6/07, jonathan at kc8onw.net <jonathan at kc8onw.net> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I see to remember there being a way to specify that part of the condition
> you used to create the match is not returned when the regex returns.  I'm
> trying to return just the number from the "length: 40" portion of this
> line.
>
> "IP (tos 0x0, ttl  47, id 52246, offset 0, flags [none], proto: TCP (6),
> length: 40)"
>
> I'm currently using  grep -Eo "length: ([[:digit:]]{2,4})" but that
> includes "length: " in the output.

What grep are you using, as far as I know grep should return the whole
line that matches the pattern.  What you want is awk,perl,ruby,tcl or
some such thing.

now if the length field is the last field you could do this

awk '{print $NF}' file

to print out "40)" the pipe to tr like so, yes I am being lazy and
wasting processes.
awk '{print $NF}' file |tr -d ')'

and you should get out your number.

have fun,

marc


>
> If someone can give me the right term or concept to search for I'll do the
> legwork I'm just out of ideas on what to search for and didn't see
> anything relevant in the man pages.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan Stewart
>
> P.S. There is probably a better way but the main goal of this is to
> monitor bandwidth usage by IP on a pflog device.  I'll probably do most of
> the work in Python I'm just prototyping in the shell right now.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 10:50:31 2007
From: brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com (Brian McGonigle)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:50:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Regular expressions
In-Reply-To: <22329.62.68.66.156.1194330209.squirrel@www.kc8onw.net>
References: <22329.62.68.66.156.1194330209.squirrel@www.kc8onw.net>
Message-ID: <460030BF-DDD5-4AF3-9D4B-A5BD30FC9C19@gmail.com>

On Nov 6, 2007, at 1:23 AM, jonathan at kc8onw.net wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I see to remember there being a way to specify that part of the  
> condition
> you used to create the match is not returned when the regex  
> returns.  I'm
> trying to return just the number from the "length: 40" portion of this
> line.
>
> "IP (tos 0x0, ttl  47, id 52246, offset 0, flags [none], proto: TCP  
> (6),
> length: 40)"
>
> I'm currently using  grep -Eo "length: ([[:digit:]]{2,4})" but that
> includes "length: " in the output.
>
> If someone can give me the right term or concept to search for I'll  
> do the
> legwork I'm just out of ideas on what to search for and didn't see
> anything relevant in the man pages.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan Stewart
>
> P.S. There is probably a better way but the main goal of this is to
> monitor bandwidth usage by IP on a pflog device.  I'll probably do  
> most of
> the work in Python I'm just prototyping in the shell right now.
>
>

Pipe it to " perl -pe 's/.*length: (\d+)\).*/$1/g;' " and you'll get  
just the number following "length: " and before the closing ")".
It essentially does a find and replace on the input.

".*length: (\d+)\.*" 		matches the entire input string. The (\d+)  
matches one or more digits  following "length: " and stores it in $1.  
Then it replaces the input with the just the digits following "length:  
" and prints them.




From trish at bsdunix.net  Tue Nov  6 11:12:17 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:12:17 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Regular expressions
In-Reply-To: <460030BF-DDD5-4AF3-9D4B-A5BD30FC9C19@gmail.com>
References: <22329.62.68.66.156.1194330209.squirrel@www.kc8onw.net><460030BF-DDD5-4AF3-9D4B-A5BD30FC9C19@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1234643298-1194365597-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1837984917-@bxe023.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

At that point - usuing awk is much lighter than calling perl - just one of those pet peeves I have is people calling perl from shell scripts when the tools have been provided (sed and awk) to call from shell that are just as powerful.

Usuing the same "methodology" piping it to sed would lso work to edit the output and replace it with just the number.

-Trish
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian McGonigle <brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com>

Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:50:31 
To:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Regular expressions


On Nov 6, 2007, at 1:23 AM, jonathan at kc8onw.net wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I see to remember there being a way to specify that part of the
> condition
> you used to create the match is not returned when the regex
> returns.  I'm
> trying to return just the number from the "length: 40" portion of this
> line.
>
> "IP (tos 0x0, ttl  47, id 52246, offset 0, flags [none], proto: TCP
> (6),
> length: 40)"
>
> I'm currently using  grep -Eo "length: ([[:digit:]]{2,4})" but that
> includes "length: " in the output.
>
> If someone can give me the right term or concept to search for I'll
> do the
> legwork I'm just out of ideas on what to search for and didn't see
> anything relevant in the man pages.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan Stewart
>
> P.S. There is probably a better way but the main goal of this is to
> monitor bandwidth usage by IP on a pflog device.  I'll probably do
> most of
> the work in Python I'm just prototyping in the shell right now.
>
>

Pipe it to " perl -pe 's/.*length: (\d+)\).*/$1/g;' " and you'll get
just the number following "length: " and before the closing ")".
It essentially does a find and replace on the input.

".*length: (\d+)\.*" 		matches the entire input string. The (\d+)
matches one or more digits  following "length: " and stores it in $1.
Then it replaces the input with the just the digits following "length:
" and prints them.


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From nikolai at fetissov.org  Wed Nov  7 09:07:20 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:07:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
Message-ID: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

Folks,

Anybody using dhcp for ipv6? Which one?
As I understand neither ISC nor OpenBSD dhcpd support v6.
The wide-dhcp in the packages doesn't look like it either.
There are several others out there. Which ones you people
are using?

The idea is to have a v6-only subnet (wireless ?) but
the dns server assignment is missing from normal icmpv6.

Thanks.
--
 Nikolai


From okan at demirmen.com  Wed Nov  7 09:28:18 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:28:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
In-Reply-To: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <20071107142818.GH11422@clam.khaoz.org>

On Wed 2007.11.07 at 09:07 -0500, nikolai wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> Anybody using dhcp for ipv6? Which one?
> As I understand neither ISC nor OpenBSD dhcpd support v6.
> The wide-dhcp in the packages doesn't look like it either.
> There are several others out there. Which ones you people
> are using?
> 
> The idea is to have a v6-only subnet (wireless ?) but
> the dns server assignment is missing from normal icmpv6.

good question - i never bothered to look; i hard code my dns settings on
my laptop.


From lists at intricatesoftware.com  Wed Nov  7 10:12:23 2007
From: lists at intricatesoftware.com (Kurt Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:12:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
In-Reply-To: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <200711071012.23383.lists@intricatesoftware.com>

On Wednesday 07 November 2007 9:07:20 am nikolai wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Anybody using dhcp for ipv6? Which one?
> As I understand neither ISC nor OpenBSD dhcpd support v6.
> The wide-dhcp in the packages doesn't look like it either.
> There are several others out there. Which ones you people
> are using?
>
> The idea is to have a v6-only subnet (wireless ?) but
> the dns server assignment is missing from normal icmpv6.

On OpenBSD I use rtadvd on my router:

/etc/rc.conf.local:
rtadvd_flags="sis1"

and IPv6 autoconfig on my LAN systems:

/etc/sysctl.conf:
net.inet6.ip6.accept_rtadv=1

Works ok for me.

Regards,
-Kurt


From quigongene at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 10:10:15 2007
From: quigongene at gmail.com (gene cronk)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 10:10:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
In-Reply-To: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <7bb72ca70711070710l5969bec4q805549ed1f91bea4@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/7/07, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Anybody using dhcp for ipv6? Which one?
> As I understand neither ISC nor OpenBSD dhcpd support v6.
> The wide-dhcp in the packages doesn't look like it either.
> There are several others out there. Which ones you people
> are using?
>
> The idea is to have a v6-only subnet (wireless ?) but
> the dns server assignment is missing from normal icmpv6.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Nikolai



http://klub.com.pl/dhcpv6/ is the one I've futzed with.  Works pretty well,
cross platform and open source.
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From nikolai at fetissov.org  Wed Nov  7 11:06:28 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:06:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
In-Reply-To: <200711071012.23383.lists@intricatesoftware.com>
References: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<200711071012.23383.lists@intricatesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <35685.204.153.88.2.1194451588.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

> On Wednesday 07 November 2007 9:07:20 am nikolai wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> Anybody using dhcp for ipv6? Which one?
>> As I understand neither ISC nor OpenBSD dhcpd support v6.
>> The wide-dhcp in the packages doesn't look like it either.
>> There are several others out there. Which ones you people
>> are using?
>>
>> The idea is to have a v6-only subnet (wireless ?) but
>> the dns server assignment is missing from normal icmpv6.
>
> On OpenBSD I use rtadvd on my router:
>
> /etc/rc.conf.local:
> rtadvd_flags="sis1"
>
> and IPv6 autoconfig on my LAN systems:
>
> /etc/sysctl.conf:
> net.inet6.ip6.accept_rtadv=1
>
> Works ok for me.

Yes, that definitely works as long as you also
have v4 dhcp giving you the dns servers (then
your dns traffic flows over v4), or you hard-code
them into your workstation config.

The idea was to have v6 _only_ subnet, thus working
off v6-only services.

Thanks.
--
 Nikolai


From quigongene at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 11:09:17 2007
From: quigongene at gmail.com (gene cronk)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:09:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
In-Reply-To: <200711071012.23383.lists@intricatesoftware.com>
References: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<200711071012.23383.lists@intricatesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <7bb72ca70711070809j72e1475cofea1079fe11a38b3@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/7/07, Kurt Miller <lists at intricatesoftware.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 07 November 2007 9:07:20 am nikolai wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > Anybody using dhcp for ipv6? Which one?
> > As I understand neither ISC nor OpenBSD dhcpd support v6.
> > The wide-dhcp in the packages doesn't look like it either.
> > There are several others out there. Which ones you people
> > are using?
> >
> > The idea is to have a v6-only subnet (wireless ?) but
> > the dns server assignment is missing from normal icmpv6.
>
> On OpenBSD I use rtadvd on my router:
>
> /etc/rc.conf.local:
> rtadvd_flags="sis1"
>
> and IPv6 autoconfig on my LAN systems:
>
> /etc/sysctl.conf:
> net.inet6.ip6.accept_rtadv=1
>
> Works ok for me.


While that will get you a v6 IP with no problem, there's not currently a
system in place in Router Advertising to assign DNS servers (odds are you're
still using IPv4 DNS unless you've manually put IPv6 IPs into nameserver
entries in /etc/resolv.conf).  Also, there isn't a way that I'm aware of to
assign specific IPs based on MAC address using rtadvd.  For the SOHO, rtadvd
will be fine, but in a larger enterprise, the DHCPv6 protocol will be pretty
much required.
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From carton at Ivy.NET  Wed Nov  7 12:01:07 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:01:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dhcpv6
In-Reply-To: <7bb72ca70711070809j72e1475cofea1079fe11a38b3@mail.gmail.com>
	(gene cronk's message of "Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:09:17 -0500")
References: <9154.204.153.88.2.1194444440.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<200711071012.23383.lists@intricatesoftware.com>
	<7bb72ca70711070809j72e1475cofea1079fe11a38b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqsl3i9ei4.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "gc" == gene cronk <quigongene at gmail.com> writes:

    gc> there isn't a way that I'm aware of to assign specific IPs
    gc> based on MAC address using rtadvd.  

Isn't the IPv6 address implied by the MAC address and the router
advertisement?  It is, on BSD.  

On EnTee the ``privacy extensions'' may be switched on sometimes, so
your address gets scrambled every few minutes.  but you can switch
them off and always get the same MAC-based address.

    gc> For the SOHO, rtadvd will be fine, but in a larger enterprise,
    gc> the DHCPv6 protocol will be pretty much required.

the cable companies probably want it, because they currently use DHCP
for all kinds of accounting and security stuff.  For the DNS server,
though, I don't see what's so hard about typing it in, no matter how
big your site is.  It seems like it would be much _less_ required in
the ``enterprise'' because you don't have visitors with
strangely-configured machines.  You know what's on the network, and
you can configure all of their DNS servers manually.

If people want to bring foreign laptops from other of these strange
v6-only zones, and they don't like typing, we could pick a site-local
anycast address on which to put a listening resolver, and if we
configure our laptops with that DNS server address we can go to each
other's houses and v6 will ``just work.''  no need for DHCP---the same
address can be made to work everywhere.

When you said DNS I thought you meant the DHCP server would register
your IPv6 address in dynamic DNS.  That's one thing it does for v4 but
still doesn't do for v6 which annoys me.  but just for knowing what
DNS server to use, DHCP seems awfully complicated.  All the other DHCP
problems look solved already.
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From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Thu Nov  8 00:31:35 2007
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:31:35 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple Releases Darwin 9 Source Code
Message-ID: <20071108053135.GA22614@clamps.exit2shell.com>

Saw this and thought I would pass it along:

Apple has released the source code to Darwin 9, the underlying operating system of OS X 10.5

"Darwin is the open source UNIX-based foundation of Mac OS X. Darwin integrates a number of technologies, including the Mach 3.0 microkernel, operating system
services based on FreeBSD 5 UNIX, high-performance TCP/IP networking, and
support for multiple integrated file systems. Because the design of Darwin is
highly modular, you can dynamically add device drivers, networking extensions,
and new file systems."

http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.5/

-- 
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Nov  9 09:06:18 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:06:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
Message-ID: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>

a new BSD print magazine:

http://tinyurl.com/2wdsgu

Sounds interesting.

While I see their point about the goal of how-to's/tutorials, I think 
they're a bit dismissive of the man pages.

g


From mhernandez at techally.com  Fri Nov  9 09:25:47 2007
From: mhernandez at techally.com (Michael Hernandez)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:25:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <58D34EDB-407E-446D-947B-BFD7C21B051C@techally.com>


On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:06 AM, George Rosamond wrote:

> a new BSD print magazine:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2wdsgu
>
> Sounds interesting.
>
> While I see their point about the goal of how-to's/tutorials, I think
> they're a bit dismissive of the man pages.
>
> g
> _______________________________________________

I read linux journal regularly... I've been hoping for a BSD print mag  
that would be similar... a sort of BSD journal...

There's just something about holding paper in your hands and reading  
words from it that seems to make the words more.... enlightening?

--Mike H


From dan at langille.org  Fri Nov  9 10:27:07 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:27:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <473435FB.32730.9ADC72D2@dan.langille.org>

On 9 Nov 2007 at 9:06, George Rosamond wrote:

> While I see their point about the goal of how-to's/tutorials, I think 
> they're a bit dismissive of the man pages.

In general:
 - man pages contain the facts, and not much else.
 - man pages lack practical examples to get a novice started

They aren't dismissing man pages.  They are saying we need more than 
man pages.  So don't give us a man page.

-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
Available for hire: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php




From jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net  Fri Nov  9 10:53:26 2007
From: jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net (Jim Brown)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:53:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
Message-ID: <20071109155326.GB53282@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>


Hi All-

As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper
on IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend
the last two BUGs.

Are the presos online anywhere yet?

If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things
IPv6, I'm interested.

BTW- I've been running IPv6 internally for several years- so
introductory stuff is not needed.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Jim B.




From lists at genoverly.net  Fri Nov  9 11:11:19 2007
From: lists at genoverly.net (michael)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:11:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <473435FB.32730.9ADC72D2@dan.langille.org>
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<473435FB.32730.9ADC72D2@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <20071109111119.3c1ed8b9@dt.genoverly.com>

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:27:07 -0500
"Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:

> On 9 Nov 2007 at 9:06, George Rosamond wrote:
> 
> > While I see their point about the goal of how-to's/tutorials, I
> > think they're a bit dismissive of the man pages.

I will have to agree that it was a little dismissive of man pages.

	"Do not write a man page. Man pages are examples of... theory
	through theory. Have you ever tried to use a completely new
	application straight by looking at the man page? How long did
	it take you to reach the information on how to use the tool in
	practice, going just through various option descriptions? Well,
	this is not what our readers want."

It was implied that the man page is not a good source to learn an
application.  Not only does that sound dismissive; it sounds plain
wrong. I will have to take it from context that BSD users were not the
target "readers" of the above quote. At least not for anything in base. 

> In general:
>  - man pages contain the facts, and not much else.
>  - man pages lack practical examples to get a novice started
> 
> They aren't dismissing man pages.  They are saying we need more than 
> man pages.  So don't give us a man page.
> 
> -- 
> Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
> Available for hire: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php


Please do not take this as aggressive or confrontational, but I take
exception to the above statements. 

The 'manual' should be the source for usage; and should be complete.
If the man page is deficient, shouldn't it be corrected or appended?  I
can understand if this was linux or solaris (both have sub-par man
pages, imo), but this is BSD. Man pages are excellent.  They contain
facts and so much more!  I am of the opinion that one should not need
*more* than man pages.

Man pages *do* have EXAMPLES sections.. e.g.

$ man ls

[snip]

EXAMPLES
     List the contents of the current working directory in long format:

           $ ls -l

     In addition to listing the contents of the current working
     directory in long format, show inode numbers, file flags (see
     chflags(1)), and suffix each filename with a symbol representing
     its file type:

           $ ls -lioF

     List the files in /var/log, sorting the output such that the
     mostly re- cently modified entries are printed first:

           $ ls -lt /var/log


Granted, the 'call for articles' is probably not for system programs
like ls, but for 3rd party programs.. which are not part of "latest
distro releases" [sic].  

So, if the context was 'articles about programs outside of base'; then
OK.  Some 3rd party software is poorly documented, and articles can be
helpful.  But then.. that is not BSD specific.  Those articles can be
published in LJ.

Please do not get me wrong.  I like articles.  I like to read them  and
I like to write them, sometimes.  I even like the idea of a mag. Paper
is easier to read on the train or in the head than man pages [grin].


-- 

michael




From okan at demirmen.com  Fri Nov  9 11:25:55 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:25:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <20071109111119.3c1ed8b9@dt.genoverly.com>
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<473435FB.32730.9ADC72D2@dan.langille.org>
	<20071109111119.3c1ed8b9@dt.genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <20071109162555.GD12294@clam.khaoz.org>

On Fri 2007.11.09 at 11:11 -0500, michael wrote:

[snip snip snip]

> Please do not take this as aggressive or confrontational, but I take
> exception to the above statements. 

ditto for me...

i agree with you on everything so far - man pages are golden.

> So, if the context was 'articles about programs outside of base'; then
> OK.  Some 3rd party software is poorly documented, and articles can be
> helpful.  But then.. that is not BSD specific.  Those articles can be
> published in LJ.

i partly agree here.

yes, base is pretty well covered;  though i do believe that people tend
to be creative with the use of their base systems for purposes that were
originally not intended - those are interesting to read (to me)...

then there are instances where 3rd party apps (e.g. packages/ports)
which require a different approach on a bsd system, most of which are
not published in linux how-to's or journals (why should they be?).

cheers,
okan


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 11:48:03 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:48:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711090848x4c3ece8ev4744f0bdc83883fa@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 9, 2007 9:06 AM, George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
> a new BSD print magazine:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2wdsgu
>
> Sounds interesting.
>
> While I see their point about the goal of how-to's/tutorials, I think
> they're a bit dismissive of the man pages.
>

As others have said, and I do agree with, the article is dismissive of
man pages.  I think that the reason for this is over exposure to linux
instead of unix of what ever flavor.  I do remember that the man pages
in linux used to come with a disclaimer that they are not updated with
the system and please go read the how-to or something else.  And that
is not the case in the BSDs.  Now  with that said, hmm as I get older
I sound more pompous oh well, they were never intended as   tutorials
on tasks but as accurate reference material for specific programs.
Now both are needed and depending on where you are in the continuum
from novice to expert one will be using one set of documents more then
the other.  Now many of us are in the "I know how to do it camp" and
for us the man pages are great because it tells us how to *implement*
our plan, ie I need to use that command switch or I need the input
file to look like this and the list goes on.  The other thing man
pages are good for is answering the question "what is it?".  Now if
you are trying to accomplish tasks with this tool and you are not sure
how to do the task then tutorials are very handy.   And magazines are
a great place for them, as they help sell adds.

marc


> g
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From af.dingo at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 11:53:34 2007
From: af.dingo at gmail.com (Jeff Quast)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:53:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple Releases Darwin 9 Source Code
In-Reply-To: <20071108053135.GA22614@clamps.exit2shell.com>
References: <20071108053135.GA22614@clamps.exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <c1feb8190711090853t51d76ce6m39062dd66c89ec22@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/8/07, Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com> wrote:
> Saw this and thought I would pass it along:
>
> Apple has released the source code to Darwin 9, the underlying operating system of OS X 10.5
>

they also released 10.4.10's complementary darwin, which was long overdue


From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Nov  9 12:13:23 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:13:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <20071109155326.GB53282@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091211050.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:

> As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper on
> IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the last two
> BUGs.
See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram

> If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6, I'm
> interested.
ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to run it - 
there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment 
investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody cares. 

that's roughly the position.



From okan at demirmen.com  Fri Nov  9 12:22:53 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:22:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091211050.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <20071109155326.GB53282@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091211050.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20071109172253.GG12294@clam.khaoz.org>

On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:13 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:
> 
> > As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper on
> > IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the last two
> > BUGs.
> See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram
> 
> > If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6, I'm
> > interested.
> ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to run it - 
> there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment 
> investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody cares. 
                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^
							  what?

that is a very broad, over-reaching statement, and i for one will
disagree.  operationally, people care.  now *who* those people are is
another question; they may not be all the people that need to care, but
there are people who care operationally.  with statements like the
above, the "other people" will never think they need to care - so it
goes as it is going now.


From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Nov  9 12:39:30 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:39:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <20071109172253.GG12294@clam.khaoz.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Okan Demirmen wrote:

> On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:13 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:
> > 
> > > As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper on
> > > IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the last two
> > > BUGs.
> > See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
> > http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
> > http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram
> > 
> > > If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6, I'm
> > > interested.
> > ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to run it - 
> > there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment 
> > investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody cares. 
>                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 							  what?
> 
> that is a very broad, over-reaching statement, and i for one will
> disagree.  operationally, people care.  now *who* those people are is
> another question; they may not be all the people that need to care, but
> there are people who care operationally.  with statements like the
> above, the "other people" will never think they need to care - so it
> goes as it is going now.
ok,

simple, show me who cares. operationally. someone who both *cares* and 
*matters*. no, home ipv6 tunnels through sixxs and occaid don't count.

-alex



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Nov  9 12:44:13 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:44:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>

Alex Pilosov wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> 
>> On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:13 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper on
>>>> IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the last two
>>>> BUGs.
>>> See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
>>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
>>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram
>>>
>>>> If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6, I'm
>>>> interested.
>>> ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to run it - 
>>> there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment 
>>> investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody cares. 
>>                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 							  what?
>>
>> that is a very broad, over-reaching statement, and i for one will
>> disagree.  operationally, people care.  now *who* those people are is
>> another question; they may not be all the people that need to care, but
>> there are people who care operationally.  with statements like the
>> above, the "other people" will never think they need to care - so it
>> goes as it is going now.
> ok,
> 
> simple, show me who cares. operationally. someone who both *cares* and 
> *matters*. no, home ipv6 tunnels through sixxs and occaid don't count.
> 

Alex:

Not sure if you've done any traveling, but apparently it's big in .jp.

And there must be a reason you jump on the topic with some degree of 
familiarity.

g


From okan at demirmen.com  Fri Nov  9 13:16:27 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:16:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20071109181627.GH12294@clam.khaoz.org>

On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:44 -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> Alex Pilosov wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> > 
> >> On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:13 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper on
> >>>> IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the last two
> >>>> BUGs.
> >>> See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
> >>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
> >>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram
> >>>
> >>>> If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6, I'm
> >>>> interested.
> >>> ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to run it - 
> >>> there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment 
> >>> investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody cares. 
> >>                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> 							  what?
> >>
> >> that is a very broad, over-reaching statement, and i for one will
> >> disagree.  operationally, people care.  now *who* those people are is
> >> another question; they may not be all the people that need to care, but
> >> there are people who care operationally.  with statements like the
> >> above, the "other people" will never think they need to care - so it
> >> goes as it is going now.
> > ok,
> > 
> > simple, show me who cares. operationally. someone who both *cares* and 
> > *matters*. no, home ipv6 tunnels through sixxs and occaid don't count.
> > 
> 
> Alex:
> 
> Not sure if you've done any traveling, but apparently it's big in .jp.
> 
> And there must be a reason you jump on the topic with some degree of 
> familiarity.

well, there's a point.  do you care alex?  i'd prefer that you would
care to some degree, so that if one day i come to you (or send someone)
to you once ipv6 is "around", i would know that you do care about the
future of the business, and not just what is here and now.  i know that
you do know about it, but just think if i didn't know you - would i have
confidence? (too many prepositions - yikes!)

also care to tell any of these folks? http://www.bigape.us

as for matters, maybe the likes of the isp's that i've worked for don't
matter - but who's the ultimate judge?  (well, it's not so great that
one of them has sold off most of their global data centers and stuck
with just a backbone and fiber) ...but i think the list above is more
impressive, no?

oh and for for record, personal /64 tunnels don't count in my book
either...at least for a general notion of caring...i think the personal
tunnels are great though, but they serve a purpose.


From carton at Ivy.NET  Fri Nov  9 13:42:34 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:42:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30711090848x4c3ece8ev4744f0bdc83883fa@mail.gmail.com>
	(Marc Spitzer's message of "Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:48:03 -0500")
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<8c50a3c30711090848x4c3ece8ev4744f0bdc83883fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqejez8dlx.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "ms" == Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> writes:

    ms> And that is not the case in the BSDs.

Yes, it's much better than Linux, but documentation revision control
and completeness isn't perfect on BSD, either.  With NetBSD I've had
problems at least with:

 * missing /usr/share/doc documentation for BIND 9 and ntpd

 * netpbm from pkgsrc, man pages vanished, replaced with ``sorry, no
   man for you.  please browse this URL and don't even think of
   complaining to me about it because <rant rant rant>.'' placeholders

both of which I'm pretty sure someone fixed.  But, it's spreading.
This less-than-adequate just-see-the-web-ism is getting pretty
pervasive.
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From carton at Ivy.NET  Fri Nov  9 13:48:20 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:48:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple Releases Darwin 9 Source Code
In-Reply-To: <c1feb8190711090853t51d76ce6m39062dd66c89ec22@mail.gmail.com>
	(Jeff Quast's message of "Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:53:34 -0500")
References: <20071108053135.GA22614@clamps.exit2shell.com>
	<c1feb8190711090853t51d76ce6m39062dd66c89ec22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqabpn8dcb.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "jq" == Jeff Quast <af.dingo at gmail.com> writes:

    >> Apple has released the source code to Darwin 9, the underlying
    >> operating system of OS X 10.5

    jq> they also released 10.4.10's complementary darwin, which was
    jq> long overdue

Just wait until someone reports success building it before you trust
press releases of this kind.  In the past I've seen everyone rabble
about them ``I think apple <blah blah> needs to <blah> and Steve Jobs
and <rabble rabble rabble>,'' and then I hear back months later that
what they released is woefully incomplete and unbuildable.  And
``someone'' has been Apple more than once, but of course everybody
pulls this shit.
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From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Nov  9 14:07:08 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:07:08 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <20071109181627.GH12294@clam.khaoz.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>	<47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20071109181627.GH12294@clam.khaoz.org>
Message-ID: <4734AFDC.2090900@pilosoft.com>

Okan Demirmen wrote:
> On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:44 -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>   
>> Alex Pilosov wrote:
>>     
>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Okan Demirmen wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:13 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper on
>>>>>> IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the last two
>>>>>> BUGs.
>>>>>>             
>>>>> See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
>>>>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
>>>>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6, I'm
>>>>>> interested.
>>>>>>             
>>>>> ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to run it - 
>>>>> there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment 
>>>>> investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody cares. 
>>>>>           
>>>>                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> 							  what?
>>>>
>>>> that is a very broad, over-reaching statement, and i for one will
>>>> disagree.  operationally, people care.  now *who* those people are is
>>>> another question; they may not be all the people that need to care, but
>>>> there are people who care operationally.  with statements like the
>>>> above, the "other people" will never think they need to care - so it
>>>> goes as it is going now.
>>>>         
>>> ok,
>>>
>>> simple, show me who cares. operationally. someone who both *cares* and 
>>> *matters*. no, home ipv6 tunnels through sixxs and occaid don't count.
>>>
>>>       
>> Alex:
>>
>> Not sure if you've done any traveling, but apparently it's big in .jp.
>>
>> And there must be a reason you jump on the topic with some degree of 
>> familiarity.
>>     
>
> well, there's a point.  do you care alex?  i'd prefer that you would
> care to some degree, so that if one day i come to you (or send someone)
> to you once ipv6 is "around", i would know that you do care about the
> future of the business, and not just what is here and now.  i know that
> you do know about it, but just think if i didn't know you - would i have
> confidence? (too many prepositions - yikes!)
>   
I barely care. ipv6 enabling my network is somewhere on todo list, very 
close to the bottom.Even if I did, I barely matter.
> also care to tell any of these folks? http://www.bigape.us
>
>   
What about it?
a) bigape is an industry in-joke
b) it is layer 2 fabric. layer 2 fabrics don't care if it is ipv4, ipv6, 
netbios or decnet.
> as for matters, maybe the likes of the isp's that i've worked for don't
> matter - but who's the ultimate judge?  (well, it's not so great that
> one of them has sold off most of their global data centers and stuck
> with just a backbone and fiber) ...but i think the list above is more
> impressive, no?
>
>   
Small ISPs don't matter. Midsized ISPs matter, sort of. Big ones really 
matter. Until we can buy proper v6 transit from likes of (3), GX, etc 
that is supported as production service, our v6 transit will continue to 
be experimental.



From yusuke at cs.nyu.edu  Fri Nov  9 21:05:59 2007
From: yusuke at cs.nyu.edu (Yusuke Shinyama)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:05:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20071110020559.16009.79629.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:44:13 -0500, George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
> Alex:
> 
> Not sure if you've done any traveling, but apparently it's big in .jp.

No, not really...

Having moved to Tokyo for a couple of months, I haven't seen much
of IPv6 stuff here and there. Yes, it's *relatively* a bit better
than the states. Or maybe. Basically they're winded. Quick
googling gives a couple of big Japanese websites, like:

IPv6 section of Atmark-IT (a famous it-related news site in japan)
http://www.atmarkit.co.jp/channel/ipv6/inpv6.html
(the last update is July 2006)

IPv6 style (Portal site for IPv6-related articles)
http://www.ipv6style.jp/
(as of today, the server is down for some reason)

IPv6 Magazine
http://internet.impress.co.jp/ipv6/
(discontinued since 2004)

IPv6 Application Constest
http://www.v6pc.jp/apc/jp/index.html
(They are still featuring the last one held in 2005)

This is pathetic.  It's kinda noble that they spent a lot
of money for these technologies that might pay off in several
decades, but I just hope they could be a bit more realistic.
Unfortunately, we are the nation that is very susceptible
to herd psychology since WWII...

Yusuke


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sat Nov 10 22:10:23 2007
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:10:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] it's not moist it's...
Message-ID: <aa9991030711101910h7f39a8f6t190872e7200f8d0a@mail.gmail.com>

DAMP
http://freshmeat.net/projects/damp/

Sounds cool, haven't given it too much of a going over.

-jesse


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 01:46:07 2007
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 01:46:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] it's not moist it's...
In-Reply-To: <aa9991030711101910h7f39a8f6t190872e7200f8d0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa9991030711101910h7f39a8f6t190872e7200f8d0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa9991030711102246y7da1cc5do8c0c35b88b6000c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 10, 2007 10:10 PM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com> wrote:
> DAMP
> http://freshmeat.net/projects/damp/
>
> Sounds cool, haven't given it too much of a going over.
>
> -jesse

>

Looks to be pretty dead. Move along, please. Nothing to s...


-jesse


From ike at lesmuug.org  Sun Nov 11 18:39:58 2007
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:39:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple Releases Darwin 9 Source Code
In-Reply-To: <oqabpn8dcb.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <20071108053135.GA22614@clamps.exit2shell.com>
	<c1feb8190711090853t51d76ce6m39062dd66c89ec22@mail.gmail.com>
	<oqabpn8dcb.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <2CF77E0C-6B47-4BCE-BCEF-C69125ACDF39@lesmuug.org>

Hi Miles, All,

After a great deal of recent frustration with Apple's 10.5/Leapord  
release, and a great deal of nit-picking frustration over bugs I  
cannot change, I can't believe I'm going to come to their rescue in  
this thread- but here goes:

On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Miles Nordin wrote:

>>>>>> "jq" == Jeff Quast <af.dingo at gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> Apple has released the source code to Darwin 9, the underlying
>>> operating system of OS X 10.5
>
>    jq> they also released 10.4.10's complementary darwin, which was
>    jq> long overdue
>
> Just wait until someone reports success building it before you trust
> press releases of this kind.  In the past I've seen everyone rabble
> about them ``I think apple <blah blah> needs to <blah> and Steve Jobs
> and <rabble rabble rabble>,'' and then I hear back months later that
> what they released is woefully incomplete and unbuildable.  And
> ``someone'' has been Apple more than once, but of course everybody
> pulls this shit.

Well, I don't want to put words in Apple's mouth, but, I believe they  
don't know how to communicate with the current world we call Open  
Source:

It seems to me, that Apple's source repository is in no way meant to  
'be built' for actual use- the Darwin OS as a whole, or the individual  
components.

The Darwin Source release, is to simply open up the source code- which  
is the bare minimum I'd want any commercial vendor (and we rarely  
get).  With this source code one can:

+ Audit any of the listed systems/subsystems
   (to see how something you like or dislike is put together)

+ Independently Fix obscure or specific bugs, (publicly or privately),  
for use within purchased copies of the MacOS.

+ Use as A rough snapshot for developers.

Previously, I don't believe they realized what the (now defunct)  
OpenDarwin project would bring to the Apple table, (e.g. people  
expecting a supported release they could run for use other than  
hacking Darwin).  That is evident as they effectively now have shut  
down the community OS site- it was a hacking platform which people  
took too seriously by itself.

--
Apple sells their OS, and with this release, they are simply being  
open about the core components- nothing more.  I see this as  
personally useful on 2 levels:

+ Core components that Apple 'hacks' (ssh, for example, in Leaoprd)  
reveal new or different ways of using the software, which one can look  
at closely to modify- (or replace cleanly if one chooses to!)

+ Their *Desktop* Operating System is hands-down more appealing for a  
UNIX shop to deploy than nearly any Windows release, in any  
environment where security, adherence to standards, or other common  
needs are important.

This seems similar to Sun's approach with OpenSolaris, if I'm not  
mistaken?
(Unless Solaris shops have now gone to deploying OpenSolaris on X86 in  
massive production environments that I don't see?  Or UNIX hackers  
even running their personal mail server with OpenSolaris?)

So with that, I don't see a reason to dogg Apple on their source code  
releases- (I see no reason to especially praise them, either...)   
However, I wish Cisco or Microsoft, released the core source code for  
components of their products.

my .02?
(as an Apple user, whose hands and heart are in the *BSD's)

Rocket-
.ike




From dan at langille.org  Sun Nov 11 18:56:49 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:56:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] From Dru's blog
In-Reply-To: <20071109111119.3c1ed8b9@dt.genoverly.com>
References: <4734695A.7000904@ceetonetechnology.com>,
	<473435FB.32730.9ADC72D2@dan.langille.org>,
	<20071109111119.3c1ed8b9@dt.genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <47375071.257.A6FBBB30@dan.langille.org>

On 9 Nov 2007 at 11:11, michael wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:27:07 -0500
> "Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 9 Nov 2007 at 9:06, George Rosamond wrote:
> > 
> > > While I see their point about the goal of how-to's/tutorials, I
> > > think they're a bit dismissive of the man pages.
> 
> I will have to agree that it was a little dismissive of man pages.
> 
> 	"Do not write a man page. Man pages are examples of... theory
> 	through theory. Have you ever tried to use a completely new
> 	application straight by looking at the man page? How long did
> 	it take you to reach the information on how to use the tool in
> 	practice, going just through various option descriptions? Well,
> 	this is not what our readers want."
> 
> It was implied that the man page is not a good source to learn an
> application.  Not only does that sound dismissive; it sounds plain
> wrong. I will have to take it from context that BSD users were not the
> target "readers" of the above quote. At least not for anything in base.

I agree with the quoted text in that learning a new application 
through the app's man page leaves a bit to be desired.

The statement very clearly refers to the application man pages, not 
the users, and not the system (base) man pages.  As such, it applies 
to all users.


> > In general:
> >  - man pages contain the facts, and not much else.
> >  - man pages lack practical examples to get a novice started
> > 
> > They aren't dismissing man pages.  They are saying we need more than 
> > man pages.  So don't give us a man page.
> 
> 
> Please do not take this as aggressive or confrontational, but I take
> exception to the above statements. 

No worries.

> The 'manual' should be the source for usage; and should be complete.
> If the man page is deficient, shouldn't it be corrected or appended?

Agreed.  Sadly, in general, many are lacking.


>  I can understand if this was linux or solaris (both have sub-par man
> pages, imo), but this is BSD. Man pages are excellent.  They contain
> facts and so much more!  I am of the opinion that one should not need
> *more* than man pages. 

The above is moot given the original quote was about application man 
pages, not system man pages.

> Man pages *do* have EXAMPLES sections.. e.g.

I agree.  My point was that most [application] man pages lack 
*practical* examples.

> $ man ls
> 
> [snip]
> 
> EXAMPLES
>      List the contents of the current working directory in long format:
> 
>            $ ls -l
> 
>      In addition to listing the contents of the current working
>      directory in long format, show inode numbers, file flags (see
>      chflags(1)), and suffix each filename with a symbol representing
>      its file type:
> 
>            $ ls -lioF
> 
>      List the files in /var/log, sorting the output such that the
>      mostly re- cently modified entries are printed first:
> 
>            $ ls -lt /var/log

Yeah, it's a system man page, relatively ancient, and better written.

> Granted, the 'call for articles' is probably not for system programs
> like ls, but for 3rd party programs.. which are not part of "latest
> distro releases" [sic].  
> 
> So, if the context was 'articles about programs outside of base'; then
> OK.  Some 3rd party software is poorly documented, and articles can be
> helpful.  But then.. that is not BSD specific.  Those articles can be
> published in LJ.

The content of the articles will be application-general (applicable 
to any OS) to but BSD-specific with respect to things such as 
/usr/local/etc/rc.d/, installation methods, etc.

-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
Available for hire: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php




From ike at lesmuug.org  Sun Nov 11 19:14:13 2007
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:14:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <4E4C0583-DEE5-42FE-9488-35C20D64668A@lesmuug.org>

Hi Alex, All,

On Nov 9, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Alex Pilosov wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Okan Demirmen wrote:
>> On Fri 2007.11.09 at 12:13 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Jim Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> As it happens, I now have an assignment to write a position paper  
>>>> on
>>>> IPv6 for a client.  Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the  
>>>> last two
>>>> BUGs.
>>> See and listen to this and make your own conclusions
>>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/bush.html
>>> http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/real/nanog41-transition.ram
>>>
>>>> If anyone wants to offer their expert opinion on all things IPv6,  
>>>> I'm
>>>> interested.
>>> ipv6 will happen. it has to. you should get yourself *ready* to  
>>> run it -
>>> there's no harm in it. generally, it no longer requires equipment
>>> investment, just configuration. operationally, however, nobody  
>>> cares.
>>                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 							  what?
>>
>> that is a very broad, over-reaching statement, and i for one will
>> disagree.  operationally, people care.  now *who* those people are is
>> another question; they may not be all the people that need to care,  
>> but
>> there are people who care operationally.  with statements like the
>> above, the "other people" will never think they need to care - so it
>> goes as it is going now.
> ok,
>
> simple, show me who cares. operationally. someone who both *cares* and
> *matters*. no, home ipv6 tunnels through sixxs and occaid don't count.
>
> -alex


Look Alex- could you please stop derailing every thread that comes up  
on IPv6?

"NYC*BUG, A Forum For Discussion and a Bridge for Learning"

This is the second time I'm asking:

Please put any 'No IPv6' sentiment or information in new threads.   
(Please realize, I want you to post, but you quickly derail every  
positive thread about IPv6 on this list- and that's not acceptable.)

Your insistance that the network operators are the only ones using the  
internet for anything 'meaningful' has become quite tiresome, as it  
leaves out the other 1.4 Billion current internet users worldwide.

In no uncertan terms- cut it out.

--
Regarding your IPv6 Statements:

- If you had come to one of the last 2 NYC*BUG meetings on the  
subject, you'd have had ample opportunity to see people show up who  
care about IPv6.

- Demeaning users of Sixxs or HE is truly uncalled for, and kindof  
silly.
I don't even know where to get a "*real*" IPv6 connection in NYC- high  
or low?
(Especially, after I called to order an IPv6 DSL line from *your ISP*,  
you could not provide me with even that!)

Sixxs and HE are the only mass-consumption options available, and  
until people in your position (and larger) start selling usable IPv6  
pipes, there will be even more tunnel use...

--
Regarding my interpretation of your attitude:

- Your negativity is impacting to us, people who for one reason or  
another, *want* to hack this stuff.  Exploration is valuable here as  
much as any quantifiable need, true progress can come from the seed of  
personal interest.

NYC*BUG is not a business, an ISP, etc...  This is not your board room  
to shout directives in.

- You are not the arbiter of meaningful use of the Internet.
NANOG is a fantastic organization, and you do important work we all  
respect as a network operator.  However, your relentless degradation  
of other internet users intentions is fairly distasteful- weather they  
are technical users of the internet like most on this list, or your  
average non-technical person.

--
I don't think your a bad guy Alex, and I really appreciate all the  
fantastic contributions you've made to this list- but for the last  
time: Please stop derailing every thread about IPv6- simply start new  
threads.

Best,
.ike





From ike at lesmuug.org  Sun Nov 11 19:25:33 2007
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:25:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <20071110020559.16009.79629.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
References: <47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<20071110020559.16009.79629.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>

Hi Yuske,

On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:05 PM, Yusuke Shinyama wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:44:13 -0500, George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com 
> > wrote:
>> Alex:
>>
>> Not sure if you've done any traveling, but apparently it's big  
>> in .jp.
>
> No, not really...
>
> Having moved to Tokyo for a couple of months, I haven't seen much
> of IPv6 stuff here and there. Yes, it's *relatively* a bit better
> than the states. Or maybe. Basically they're winded. Quick
> googling gives a couple of big Japanese websites, like:
>
> IPv6 section of Atmark-IT (a famous it-related news site in japan)
> http://www.atmarkit.co.jp/channel/ipv6/inpv6.html
> (the last update is July 2006)
>
> IPv6 style (Portal site for IPv6-related articles)
> http://www.ipv6style.jp/
> (as of today, the server is down for some reason)
>
> IPv6 Magazine
> http://internet.impress.co.jp/ipv6/
> (discontinued since 2004)
>
> IPv6 Application Constest
> http://www.v6pc.jp/apc/jp/index.html
> (They are still featuring the last one held in 2005)
>
> This is pathetic.  It's kinda noble that they spent a lot
> of money for these technologies that might pay off in several
> decades, but I just hope they could be a bit more realistic.
> Unfortunately, we are the nation that is very susceptible
> to herd psychology since WWII...
>
> Yusuke

You don't see much IPv6?  Look a bit broader...

> [nycbug-talk] IPv6 in Japan
> Thu Mar 22 00:00:59 EDT 2007

http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2007-March/009955.html

Re-read the warwalking experiences and misc in that message:
> 2) HUMBLING EXPERIENCES:
> 3) NNT Do Co Mo:
And I'll add to that, look past the glossy IT-industry mags, and look  
over at the the IIJ...
Jump on some wireless hotspots around the Tokyo metro area and fire up  
pin6, traceroute6...  you'll see what I mean...

(or try hitting <http://www6.nycbug.org> !)

Rocket-
.ike




From alex at pilosoft.com  Sun Nov 11 19:33:39 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:33:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <4E4C0583-DEE5-42FE-9488-35C20D64668A@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111914570.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Isaac Levy wrote:

> 
> Please put any 'No IPv6' sentiment or information in new threads.  
> (Please realize, I want you to post, but you quickly derail every
> positive thread about IPv6 on this list- and that's not acceptable.)
Expert opinion was asked, expert opinion was given. If you do not like the 
expert opinions, you can listen to 1000 others who are *not* experts and 
don't really know. They may be more polite, but they aren't experts. They 
may agree with *your* opinion, but they aren't experts. 

If the only acceptable opinion was yours, why ask for opinions?

> Your insistance that the network operators are the only ones using the
> internet for anything 'meaningful' has become quite tiresome, as it
> leaves out the other 1.4 Billion current internet users worldwide.
Uh, without network operators, there's no interwebs. If operators don't
care about v6, it will not happen. As simple as that. It is the difference 
between experimenting (which everyone is encouraged to do) and production 
use (meaning, someone's making money doing it and cares if it is up or 
down). I cannot offer opinion on experimenting, there are others who know 
better. I can only tell you about production use. There isn't.

> Regarding your IPv6 Statements:
> 
> - If you had come to one of the last 2 NYC*BUG meetings on the subject,
> you'd have had ample opportunity to see people show up who care about
> IPv6.
about the same as 8 years ago. experimenting. i've done so, about 7 years
ago, through HE tunnelbroker, been there, done that, saw the dancing
turtle, irc'd from :dead:beef,  moved on.

> - Demeaning users of Sixxs or HE is truly uncalled for, and kindof
> silly. I don't even know where to get a "*real*" IPv6 connection in NYC-
> high or low? (Especially, after I called to order an IPv6 DSL line from
> *your ISP*, you could not provide me with even that!)
Regretfully, me and everyone else. I think you'll find though that pilo 
will be one of first to actually do it. Eventually. 

Oh, try speakeasy. I think they were rambling about being v6-enabled.

> Sixxs and HE are the only mass-consumption options available, and until
> people in your position (and larger) start selling usable IPv6 pipes,
> there will be even more tunnel use...
I'll avoid commenting on them this time then ;)

> -- Regarding my interpretation of your attitude:
> 
> - Your negativity is impacting to us, people who for one reason or
> another, *want* to hack this stuff.  Exploration is valuable here as
> much as any quantifiable need, true progress can come from the seed of
> personal interest.
There's a big difference between hacking and production use. There are 
people hacking on PDP-10's and brainfuck, they find it cool (I do too).

However, when you ask me what is the *real* status of ipv6 on the
interwebs, I'm very honest in telling you. If you want to close your eyes,
and pretend that ipv6 is universally accepted, natively routed by everyone
and is above .01% of global traffic, be my guest. That wouldn't make it
true.

> NYC*BUG is not a business, an ISP, etc...  This is not your board room
> to shout directives in.
Eh, I don't order anyone to shut up - you just did, though. 

All I can do is to say what I believe to be true. I don't mean to
discourage anyone from experimenting.

> - You are not the arbiter of meaningful use of the Internet. NANOG is a
> fantastic organization, and you do important work we all respect as a
> network operator.  However, your relentless degradation of other
> internet users intentions is fairly distasteful- weather they are
> technical users of the internet like most on this list, or your average
> non-technical person.
> 
> -- I don't think your a bad guy Alex, and I really appreciate all the
> fantastic contributions you've made to this list- but for the last time:
> Please stop derailing every thread about IPv6- simply start new threads.
a) stop asking the question "is there actual operational use of ipv6".

b) if you can't handle the truth (tm), feel free to unsubscribe me.

-alex



From alex at pilosoft.com  Sun Nov 11 19:37:13 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:37:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111933590.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Isaac Levy wrote:

> > 2) HUMBLING EXPERIENCES: 3) NNT Do Co Mo:
> And I'll add to that, look past the glossy IT-industry mags, and look
> over at the the IIJ... Jump on some wireless hotspots around the Tokyo
> metro area and fire up pin6, traceroute6...  you'll see what I mean...
Actually, a really good question. 

a) %% wise, how many AP's were v6 enabled? 

b) I have asked someone else who lived in Japan recently about v6. His 
statement was "there is some. however, if you call local phone company and 
ask why don't they support ipv6, the reaction is exactly the same as if 
you haved called Verizon and asked about ipv6" (that is, "what is ipv6").

I'm curious about opinions of others who actually live in Japan, is there 
real ipv6?

-alex



From ike at lesmuug.org  Sun Nov 11 20:05:09 2007
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:05:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111914570.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111914570.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <C7F5A737-C202-4A54-9B2B-F45718F3BA7D@lesmuug.org>

On Nov 11, 2007, at 7:33 PM, Alex Pilosov wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>>
>> Please put any 'No IPv6' sentiment or information in new threads.
>> (Please realize, I want you to post, but you quickly derail every
>> positive thread about IPv6 on this list- and that's not acceptable.)
> Expert opinion was asked, expert opinion was given. If you do not  
> like the
> expert opinions, you can listen to 1000 others who are *not* experts  
> and
> don't really know. They may be more polite, but they aren't experts.  
> They
> may agree with *your* opinion, but they aren't experts.
>
> If the only acceptable opinion was yours, why ask for opinions?
>
>> Your insistance that the network operators are the only ones using  
>> the
>> internet for anything 'meaningful' has become quite tiresome, as it
>> leaves out the other 1.4 Billion current internet users worldwide.
> Uh, without network operators, there's no interwebs. If operators  
> don't
> care about v6, it will not happen. As simple as that. It is the  
> difference
> between experimenting (which everyone is encouraged to do) and  
> production
> use (meaning, someone's making money doing it and cares if it is up or
> down). I cannot offer opinion on experimenting, there are others who  
> know
> better. I can only tell you about production use. There isn't.
>
>> Regarding your IPv6 Statements:
>>
>> - If you had come to one of the last 2 NYC*BUG meetings on the  
>> subject,
>> you'd have had ample opportunity to see people show up who care about
>> IPv6.
> about the same as 8 years ago. experimenting. i've done so, about 7  
> years
> ago, through HE tunnelbroker, been there, done that, saw the dancing
> turtle, irc'd from :dead:beef,  moved on.
>
>> - Demeaning users of Sixxs or HE is truly uncalled for, and kindof
>> silly. I don't even know where to get a "*real*" IPv6 connection in  
>> NYC-
>> high or low? (Especially, after I called to order an IPv6 DSL line  
>> from
>> *your ISP*, you could not provide me with even that!)
> Regretfully, me and everyone else. I think you'll find though that  
> pilo
> will be one of first to actually do it. Eventually.
>
> Oh, try speakeasy. I think they were rambling about being v6-enabled.
>
>> Sixxs and HE are the only mass-consumption options available, and  
>> until
>> people in your position (and larger) start selling usable IPv6 pipes,
>> there will be even more tunnel use...
> I'll avoid commenting on them this time then ;)
>
>> -- Regarding my interpretation of your attitude:
>>
>> - Your negativity is impacting to us, people who for one reason or
>> another, *want* to hack this stuff.  Exploration is valuable here as
>> much as any quantifiable need, true progress can come from the seed  
>> of
>> personal interest.
> There's a big difference between hacking and production use. There are
> people hacking on PDP-10's and brainfuck, they find it cool (I do  
> too).
>
> However, when you ask me what is the *real* status of ipv6 on the
> interwebs, I'm very honest in telling you. If you want to close your  
> eyes,
> and pretend that ipv6 is universally accepted, natively routed by  
> everyone
> and is above .01% of global traffic, be my guest. That wouldn't make  
> it
> true.
>
>> NYC*BUG is not a business, an ISP, etc...  This is not your board  
>> room
>> to shout directives in.
> Eh, I don't order anyone to shut up - you just did, though.
>
> All I can do is to say what I believe to be true. I don't mean to
> discourage anyone from experimenting.
>
>> - You are not the arbiter of meaningful use of the Internet. NANOG  
>> is a
>> fantastic organization, and you do important work we all respect as a
>> network operator.  However, your relentless degradation of other
>> internet users intentions is fairly distasteful- weather they are
>> technical users of the internet like most on this list, or your  
>> average
>> non-technical person.
>>
>> -- I don't think your a bad guy Alex, and I really appreciate all the
>> fantastic contributions you've made to this list- but for the last  
>> time:
>> Please stop derailing every thread about IPv6- simply start new  
>> threads.
> a) stop asking the question "is there actual operational use of ipv6".
>
> b) if you can't handle the truth (tm), feel free to unsubscribe me.
>
> -alex
>
>

Alex, this is simple:

I'm not telling you to stop posting.

I'm asking you to give other voices some space, by continuing to share  
your version of 'the truth(tm)' in new threads, it's derailing other  
threads here!

I understand your position, and we all respect your vantage point, but  
other people on this list are moving foreword with IPv6 deployments at  
various scales.  Some of us are even enjoying it!

Best,
.ike





From asr+nycbug at latency.net  Sun Nov 11 20:35:44 2007
From: asr+nycbug at latency.net (Adam Rothschild)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:35:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <4E4C0583-DEE5-42FE-9488-35C20D64668A@lesmuug.org>
	<8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<4E4C0583-DEE5-42FE-9488-35C20D64668A@lesmuug.org>
	<47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<20071110020559.16009.79629.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
	<8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20071112013543.GA65234@latency.net>

On 2007-11-11-19:25:33, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> And I'll add to that, look past the glossy IT-industry mags, and
> look over at the the IIJ...
                       ^^^

For a peak at operational reality as it relates to v6 adaptation, one
would be well-served to review these slides from the recent NANOG
conference:

  http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/presentations/Bush-v6-op-reality.pdf

For those unaware, Randy is a top scientist at IIJ, reporting straight
to the CEO, and has been around the block long enough to know a thing
or two about v6.

On 2007-11-11-19:14:13, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> Look Alex- could you please stop derailing every thread that comes
> up on IPv6? 
[...]
> In no uncertan terms- cut it out.

Unfortunately, things aren't as black-and-white as you make them out
to be.  Things are not rosy, delivering v6 services to customers is
not as simple as it may seem from an end user's prospective, and at
the end of the day, demand from revenue-generating customers (versus
hobbyists) is simply not there.  I, for one, welcome Alex's fresh
breath of reality in these discussions, and would be disappointed
should you choose to censor his dissenting opinions in the interest of
maintaining the peace.

> - If you had come to one of the last 2 NYC*BUG meetings on the  
> subject, you'd have had ample opportunity to see people show up who  
> care about IPv6.

Nobody's doubting that the interest is there.

Unfortunately, little to no interest is coming from large enterprises,
content providers, nor access providers -- typically the largest
sources of traffic and revenue for tier-1-ish ISPs. 

> Sixxs and HE are the only mass-consumption options available, and
> until people in your position (and larger) start selling usable IPv6
> pipes, there will be even more tunnel use...

It's easy to beat up Alex (or anybody in his shoes really) for not
implementing v6.  Perhaps a more productive course of action would be
to ask "why not".

Lack of demand (see above) plays a key factor here.

Even if the demand were there, purchasing v6 transit on a large scale
isn't exactly simple.  With the exception of NTT/Verio (AS 2914), I'm
unaware of any tier 1 providers running dual-stack.  Tunneling is
ghetto, doesn't scale from a traffic prospective, and often times
provides the user with a worse-than-v4 browsing experience given
divergent physical and logical topologies.  Even the folk lobbying in
favor of v6 at every single conference (*cough* 701) are ill-prepared
to actually offer it to (paying) transit customers.

> - You are not the arbiter of meaningful use of the Internet.

Nor are, unfortunately, you.  While Alex might not deliver good news,
I would think it unwise to shoot the messenger...

-a


From carton at Ivy.NET  Sun Nov 11 20:51:16 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:51:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple Releases Darwin 9 Source Code
In-Reply-To: <2CF77E0C-6B47-4BCE-BCEF-C69125ACDF39@lesmuug.org> (Isaac Levy's
	message of "Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:39:58 -0500")
References: <20071108053135.GA22614@clamps.exit2shell.com>
	<c1feb8190711090853t51d76ce6m39062dd66c89ec22@mail.gmail.com>
	<oqabpn8dcb.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<2CF77E0C-6B47-4BCE-BCEF-C69125ACDF39@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <oqtzns6xkb.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "il" == Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> writes:

    il> I can't believe I'm going to come to their rescue in this
    il> thread- but here goes:

yeah I guess if I argue it as ``apple is bad'' I am just starting a
discussion that will get silly quickly.  It's hard, though, because
the press releases and almost everyone's reactions are shot up and
dripping with this ``apple is good'' sentiment.

Maybe it's better to ask questions like:

Q. does Darwin source availability mean I will have more software
   freedom if I buy a Mac rather than a wintel laptop, and thus make
   me more hip to the free software scene?

A. No.

   In fact, well-chosen generic PeeCee crap hardware is more
   free-software-friendly than Apple hardware.  in particular the
   wireless chip, but other chips, too.

Q. is it worth investing my time and attention in the Darwin source?

A. you might use it in a read-only way for working on NetBSD/macppc,
   or to help develop new exploits into functioning Mac OS X worms for
   a script kiddie botnet.  But you won't build it, modify it, or
   observe it running in a debugger.

Q. is Darwin the fifth BSD, another free as in freedom platform like
   the other four BSD's, as is implied by most people's reading of
   their press releases, by most casual /. discussion, and even by its
   on-topicness for a BSD user's group list?

A. Emphatically NOT.


As for Sun, I think Darwin is the free software world's version of
Vietnam.  When Sun makes press releases then stalls on delivering
source, fails to sell any hardware where all the drivers are
open-source, makes it difficult to determine what's open-source and
what isn't, and plays name-games with to what chunk does
``OpenSolaris'' actually refer?, people can accuse them of ``pulling a
Darwin'' or ``tossing source over the wall.''  At least Apple gave us
a word for this type of time-sucking disinformaiton disaster.

I remain skeptical, but Sun has done a few things differently than
Apple, which is why I invest time in Solaris but not in Mac OS X:

 * they've made a public commitment that every _new_ piece of Solaris
   they write will be open-source.  They have not _kept_ this
   commitment w.r.t. drivers, and I don't know a good way to audit
   them on it so I would suspect they're slipping in general, but at
   least they've made themselves vulnerable to mockery for a while
   when they deviate from this.

   Apple just talks (deceptively) about what they've done, and doesn't
   make or keep concrete commitments about what they plan to do.  The
   latter is what I need when deciding if I want to commit to a
   platform or not: some accurate idea about it's future.

 * over the last two years, pieces of Solaris that used to be closed
   have been released open, and we haven't had chunks mysteriously
   disappear from the release.  We are moving in the right direction,

   however I can't yet imagine a future of Linux/BSD-like freedom.  I
   predict we will never see the promised SunStudio source.  I also
   bet there will be important chunks of Solaris that are encumbered
   but are too old, critical, and painfully thrashed into bug-freeness
   for them to risk the massive QA and regression pain of a rewrite.
   And I bet they will hire anyone who knows how to work on these
   chunks, so the pressure to rewrite them will always remain minimal.

   but opening more subdirectories rather than taking them back inside
   the wall is still a big deal, and better than Mac OS.

 * there's a publicly readable Mercurial repository that's just a bit
   behind what Sun uses internally (though of course many things are
   missing from it).  That's a hell of a lot better than tossing
   slapdash collections of source files over a wall years after the
   corresponding binary stable release.

 * the source they release _does_ build.  consistently, I think.  You
   can complete a development cycle with it.  you have to link in huge
   binary chunks.  You have to install a binary-only DVD, a DVD which
   you can't build yourself, and then overwrite parts of your system
   with the results of an OpenSolaris build.  But at least what source
   they do release can be changed, rebuilt, used, and attached with a
   debugger.

 * the familiar names from mailing lists that Sun has hired seem to
   continue speaking relatively frankly after they sign Sun's papers.
   this is just an impression, but at least it's worlds apart from the
   impression apple gives.

 * Sun developers will actually post on their internal PSARC mail
   folders, ``why is this case marked closed?  There's no reason for
   that.''  and get an answer, and open it.  so I can only presume
   they are recruiting people with the promise, ``work on a
   mostly-open operating system.''  This makes it even harder for them
   to pull a Darwin, because they become infiltrated with these guys
   who they can't afford to lose in large numbers all at once.  I
   guess Sun could limit their exposure by avoiding hiring any
   developer who has no financial reason to work.  but still, I can
   imagine this change to their culture being one that actually
   sticks.

I probably trust Sun marketing less than Apple.  Those guys seem like
a bunch of land sharks on acid, with their constantly renaming things,
announcing features a year before they're released spreading
disinformation with stunning flagrancy, and enforcing this weird
newspeak on their employees.  But Sun's track record over the last two
years is so SO much better than the Apple disaster, and Sun has sort
of posted some embarassment-bonds by saying all new features will be
open-source, and made themselves vulnerable through the infiltration
of people who might quit if Sun pulls a Darwin.


more-or-less supporting you:

http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/writing/darwin_lessons.html

1) No one does anything with Apple's Mac OS X source. As we can see
   from the "usefulness of source" thread on Apple's darwin-dev list
   (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Darwin-dev/2006/Feb/index.html),
   no one on the darwin-dev list actually does any development on
   Darwin. Almost all of the responses to how people use the source
   Apple posts is 'documentation'. This is indicative of so many
   problems, I don't know where to begin. Well, actually, I do: Darwin
   is dead! Next: Apple's documentation sucks! Maybe darwin-dev should
   be renamed to macosx-documentation.

http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/writing/osfail.html

Much of OpenDarwin's initial content came from a site called
darwinfo.org, which I ran until I became employed by Apple and was
asked to remove much of the functionality.
[...]
Marketing thought that by throwing some source files over the wall,
they could increase their market share and revenue. And they were
right. You go to almost any technical conference these days, and there
is an astonishing number of Mac laptops in the crowd. Prior to Mac OS
X, people would have been laughed out of the building for having a
Mac, but now, with Mac OS X and the magic of open source, it was
suddenly OK or even cool. Managerially and culturally, Apple had no
intention of becoming involved with any community outside its own
walls. There were some well intentioned engineers and even a few low
level managers that were duped by their own marketing department, and
that was all. These people had given substantial amounts of their free
time under the illusion they were doing something Right, something
Good, but in the end were simply used by their own company's marketing
department.

    il> + Audit any of the listed systems/subsystems (to see how
    il> something you like or dislike is put together)

meaning for use ``as documentation''.

    il> + Independently Fix obscure or specific bugs, (publicly or
    il> privately), for use within purchased copies of the MacOS.

no, clearly you can't fix bugs if you can't build the source and
complete a development cycle.  Also, they don't accept back fixes.
(Sun does.)

    il> + Use as A rough snapshot for developers.

I don't know what this means.  

But a snapshot in {Net,Free,Open}BSD is in the same format as a
release.  It can be built, installed, run, debugged.  It's just less
stable.  Darwin obviously isn't that kind of snapshot!

    il> (Unless Solaris shops have now gone to deploying OpenSolaris
    il> on X86 in massive production environments that I don't see?

This is a good question for Sun: how do I check out the sources used
to build, say, Solaris 10 Update 4?  if I want to fix a bug on a
production machine myself?  I don't know the answer.  I don't know if
that branch is public or not---it might be.  The binary version of the
S10U4 stable release is free as in free beer, but as you say the
instructions posted are for building the development release only.

    il> Or UNIX hackers even running their personal mail server with
    il> OpenSolaris?)

not mail server yet, but planned.  I'm using Nevada b71 as an NFS
server and on two boxes as firefox/xterm/openoffice/xpdf/azureus/java
desktop.  I believe it works better for this than FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
On SPARC, it definitely does.

Anyway, for now, the actual complete installable OS is called Solaris
Express Community Edition, and is free as in free beer.  OpenSolaris
is the chunk you can build from source + blobs with 'nightly' and use
to overwrite part of your installed system.

    il> So with that, I don't see a reason to dogg Apple on their
    il> source code releases

IMHO a loudly self-congradulatory release of unbuildable source always
warrants some kvetching.  The fact that you can use it for
``something'' (documentation) doesn't mean no kvetching.  And arguing
that Apple didn't intend for me to be able to actually use it, only
for massive numbers of people to _believe_ I could use it, so my
frustration isn't a surprise to them but rather part of their plan,
doesn't make me feel better at all!

I think they should be given the boot.  out of the BSD club.  thanks
for taking our source, have a nice day, bye-bye!

-- 
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this fortune, you agree, on behalf of your employer,
to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all
NON-NEGOTIATED  agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap,
browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use
policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its
partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my
ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the
authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
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From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Sun Nov 11 21:04:25 2007
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:04:25 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Photos from IPv6 Workshop
Message-ID: <20071112020425.GA24513@clamps.exit2shell.com>

Greetings-

I finally got around to posting the photos I took at the IPv6 workshop.
I saw some other people with camera, so please post your photos as well.

http://flickr.com/photos/skreuzer/tags/ipv6workshop/

-- 
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer


From okan at demirmen.com  Sun Nov 11 21:19:46 2007
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:19:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <C7F5A737-C202-4A54-9B2B-F45718F3BA7D@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111914570.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<C7F5A737-C202-4A54-9B2B-F45718F3BA7D@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20071112021946.GF8739@clam.khaoz.org>

if i may...

an opinion was asked and one opinion was given; then someone challenged
the absoluteness of that opinion and we had a little back and forth.
being the "challenger" of that original opinion, i am still looking for
a response that will add to the conversation - i have more to
operational experience to add, but not until i have more outside support
will i post.  that is where it stood...

...insert a few other comments and user experience...

i'm not sure where the topic was derailed...in fact, i'm not sure if it
was derailed at all...did i miss something?  we are still on-topic, imo.

and now, can we just get back to business? thanks.


From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Sun Nov 11 22:36:21 2007
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:36:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 in Japan
Message-ID: <20071112033621.GA46967@mail.scottro.net>

I should probably have stuck to the original thread, but anyway...

I made a quick post to the Tokyo Linux User Group, asking about IPv6 in
Japan and got the following answer.  (There may be more replies, I'll
post any that seem relevant.)

==================================

I have seen a few consumer level IPv6 routers in Yodobashi Camera a
while back but have never asked about provider support.  This link seem
to suggest they are offering IPv6 addresses to all b-flets customers[1]

Edward

1. http://www.ipv6style.jp/en/news/20070226/ntteast.html

==================
If you follow the links at the bottom, they basically take you to pages
saying we have it, here are instructions for MS and Mac, e.g., 

http://flets.com/customer/ipv6_mac.html

-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Harmony: Why have you come to our lonely, small town, which
has no post office and very few exports?


From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Mon Nov 12 02:16:30 2007
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 02:16:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 in Japan
In-Reply-To: <20071112033621.GA46967@mail.scottro.net>
References: <20071112033621.GA46967@mail.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <20071112071630.GA48758@mail.scottro.net>

On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 10:36:21PM -0500, Scott Robbins wrote:



Another response.
 
===================================
Not really. NTT is offering ("experimental," last I heard) native IPv6
to home users, but they sort of kill the whole point of the thing by
giving you a /128. (Yes, one single IPv6 address. And dynamically
assigned, no less.)

=======================================



-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Xander: I still don't know why we had to come here to look up 
information on a killer snot monster. 
Giles: Because it's a killer snot monster from outer space. ...I
did not say that. 


From yusuke at cs.nyu.edu  Mon Nov 12 08:29:15 2007
From: yusuke at cs.nyu.edu (Yusuke Shinyama)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:29:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>
References: <20071110020559.16009.79629.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
	<8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>
	<47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20071112132915.26148.41962.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:25:33 -0500, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> 
> You don't see much IPv6?  Look a bit broader...
> 
> > [nycbug-talk] IPv6 in Japan
> > Thu Mar 22 00:00:59 EDT 2007
> 
> http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2007-March/009955.html
> 
> Re-read the warwalking experiences and misc in that message:
> > 2) HUMBLING EXPERIENCES:
> > 3) NNT Do Co Mo:
> And I'll add to that, look past the glossy IT-industry mags, and look  
> over at the the IIJ...
> Jump on some wireless hotspots around the Tokyo metro area and fire up  
> pin6, traceroute6...  you'll see what I mean...

Well, I have to say your story was a bit misleading.  That's
basically only in Univ. Tokyo and a couple of other limited places
they're experimenting. (BTW, U-tokyo is probably one of the
richest university in the world, sucking up the 10% of the annual
budget for the entire higher education in Japan, spending about
$2b a year.  So I guess they have plenty of money to play this
kind of stuff.)  In the area of my residence, 6 or 7 miles away
from u-tokyo, I don't even see any hotspot. Most commercial DSL or
optical connections are cheaper and more stable than Comcast or
Verizon, but nothing fancy. And yes, you can use v6 native
connections from home if you try hard, but it's expensive and no
support (that's what they're calling "experimental", I guess), so
I don't care. For a non-geek consumer's point of view, IPv6
doesn't offer anything but troubles.  In my workplace I've seen
people having enough problems with Vista enabled v6, which
makes them turn the feature off completely, only leaving bad
impressions about v6.

I've come to NYC around 2001 (actually, just before Sep 11), then
I got a degree, and now come back to Tokyo. And my impression
about IPv6 is pretty much like "uh, nothing has been
changed after six years. What were those people doing?"  
Some media are still agitating that IPv6 shall come very
soon, but in reality no one cares. And I'm already tired
of "you could have your microwave connected online!"  
kind of hype, which is still commonly used here.  
Panasonic website has a good example: they have a "kids'
page" for explaining ipv6, which basically says "IPv6 all connects
the electric stuff at your home together! TVs, ACs, and lamps..."
(http://panasonic.biz/ipv6/doit/doit_01.html)
I think it's a pretty unattractive future that a billion-doller
spent project can envision for us. Actually, I'm dissapointed
that, after almost ten years of trying, no one can ever 
come up with a good use of v6 that has enough appeal for
general public (other than hacking). This already seems a big defeat.

Sorry for being negative... I'm awaiting someone rebutting
this argument.

Yusuke


From carton at Ivy.NET  Mon Nov 12 11:46:12 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:46:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: Yusuke Shinyama's message of "Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:29:15 -0500"
References: <20071110020559.16009.79629.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
	<8E7047DF-1CAA-4767-8390-425E3DFE28D3@lesmuug.org>
	<47349C6D.4080501@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091238400.26156-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<20071112132915.26148.41962.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
	<20071112033621.GA46967@mail.scottro.net>
	<20071112071630.GA48758@mail.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <oqejev76p7.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "ys" == Yusuke Shinyama <yusuke at cs.nyu.edu> writes:
>>>>> "sr" == Scott Robbins <scottro at nyc.rr.com> writes:

    sr> native IPv6 to home users, but they sort of kill the whole
    sr> point of the thing by giving you a /128. (Yes, one single IPv6
    sr> address. And dynamically assigned, no less.)

It's a lot of extra work, complexity, and user-support to set up
something like that with IPv6---custom infrastructure, built for the
``experiment,'' just to assign in this strange way.  The registry's
address handout rules give no incentive for assigning longer than /56.
I can't think of any reason NTT would work so hard, unless they
intentionally want to stop home users from having reachable global
addresses.  Maybe there's some other reason I can't imagine.  but, it
is really a lot of work for no obvious benefit to them.

    ys> no one can ever come up with a good use of v6 that has enough
    ys> appeal for general public (other than hacking).

In view of the above, I'd say you have it backwards.  I think the
imagined and unimagined usefulness of it to home users is exactly the
reason it's _not_ happening.  It's threatening to the biggest ISP's,
though I don't know why.  Imagined reasons:

 * The one we care about: they sell static addresses and sell port
   unblocking for huge per-profit fees, like double what Interweb
   users pay.  They don't want a second-class v6 hosting option to
   exist.

 * They want a clear distinction between hosting and browsing, so the
   browser ISP Level 3 can charge the hosting ISP Cogent for their
   users?  

 * They don't want filesharing to work without setting up complicated
   port-mapping mumbo jumbo?  (probably more the cable company than
   the phone company though)

 * They're afraid of a plug-in ``hosting appliance?''  

 * They want to mediate your communication by making sure everyone
   meets each other on some web ``property'', youtube, itunes,
   myspace, iDisk.mac.com, gmail---no direct communication between
   houses?  

 * They have long-term plans to move your data off your computers and
   onto theirs, and then rent it back to you?  

 * They're blindly afraid of applications they can't imagine
   threatening their own web ``properties''?

   ``The future is like walking down some unlit corridor, and it gets
    darker and darker as you move into it.''
          -- Jack Valenti.  

some guesses, but I don't know why.  /128 reaks of fear, though.

Next, an earlier slide said the plan for the last stages of the v4
crunch is a cap-and-trade system like carbon emissions.  Your
number-rental fees will go up and down each month like the price of a
kilowatthour.  There could be speculation, international trade, a
heavily-regulated market full of complicated tricks for sophisticated
players.  I think Alex's ``important'' people find this sort of thing
infinitely more exciting than IPv6.

    ys> "IPv6 all connects the electric stuff at your home together!
    ys> TVs, ACs, and lamps..."

in reality it connects together all the many ``boxes'' the cable
company gives you as they slowly take over everything in your home.
phones, stereo, three televisions, all your computers.  There aren't
enough rfc1918 addresses, and they want to retain central control of
all your appliances even after you buy them.  It complicates things
for them to reuse addresses between homes.  The devices might not even
be on the Internet, but their own corporate/customer network is so
big---as single companies buy up the infrastructure of entire nations
and continents, the real technical need is for a convenient way of
assigning bigger blocks of numbers than a /8 to a single entity.

The celfone companies need it, want it, are using it already?, for the
same reason.  Isn't it part of WCDMA?
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From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 12 12:36:07 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:36:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <oqejev76p7.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121225360.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Miles Nordin wrote:

> It's a lot of extra work, complexity, and user-support to set up
> something like that with IPv6---custom infrastructure, built for the
> ``experiment,'' just to assign in this strange way.  The registry's
> address handout rules give no incentive for assigning longer than /56. I
> can't think of any reason NTT would work so hard, unless they
> intentionally want to stop home users from having reachable global
> addresses.  Maybe there's some other reason I can't imagine.  but, it is
> really a lot of work for no obvious benefit to them.
What Miles said. Note that with IPv6, the last 64 bits are the host 
address and only first 64 bits can be routed on. So, it makes no 
sense to limit customer to /128, when nobody can use the rest of /64. 
What is really happening is ipv6 autoconfiguration assigns a random 
last-64-bits of the address so customer looks like they have /128 address. 
That, however, doesn't mean they can't have any other address in /64: they 
can just assign it manually.

Given the chance of NTT being that strict with IP utilization, or random 
BSD user in Japan being simply confused because he got a /128, I'll take 
latter.

> In view of the above, I'd say you have it backwards.  I think the
> imagined and unimagined usefulness of it to home users is exactly the
> reason it's _not_ happening.  It's threatening to the biggest ISP's,
> though I don't know why.  Imagined reasons:
Conspiracy is overrated. There isn't any. There's just natural resistance 
to change.

>  * The one we care about: they sell static addresses and sell port
>    unblocking for huge per-profit fees, like double what Interweb
>    users pay.  They don't want a second-class v6 hosting option to
>    exist.
a) additional IPs is a tax on users who want something special, and likely 
to tax our support by doing something special. It isn't really a big 
profit center.

b) We can still block incoming ipv6 so you can't run servers anyway and 
charge you extra money to unblock, so that's not really impediment ;)

>  * They want a clear distinction between hosting and browsing, so the
>    browser ISP Level 3 can charge the hosting ISP Cogent for their
>    users?  
What does that have to do with v6.

>  * They don't want filesharing to work without setting up complicated
>    port-mapping mumbo jumbo?  (probably more the cable company than
>    the phone company though)
What does that have to do with v6.
I don't think any filesharing protocols are v6-enabled anyway ;)

>  * They're afraid of a plug-in ``hosting appliance?''  
What does that have to do with v6.

>  * They want to mediate your communication by making sure everyone
>    meets each other on some web ``property'', youtube, itunes,
>    myspace, iDisk.mac.com, gmail---no direct communication between
>    houses?  
What does that have to do with v6.
> 
>  * They have long-term plans to move your data off your computers and
>    onto theirs, and then rent it back to you?  
What does that have to do with v6.

>  * They're blindly afraid of applications they can't imagine
>    threatening their own web ``properties''?
What does that have to do with v6.
<snip>

> Next, an earlier slide said the plan for the last stages of the v4
> crunch is a cap-and-trade system like carbon emissions.  Your
> number-rental fees will go up and down each month like the price of a
> kilowatthour.  There could be speculation, international trade, a
> heavily-regulated market full of complicated tricks for sophisticated
> players.  I think Alex's ``important'' people find this sort of thing
> infinitely more exciting than IPv6.
If we get to this point, it will *suck*. For everyone. Nobody wants it. It
will be lame, annoying and ridiculous. Many carriers *do* realize that we
are on a train going full speed ahead and there's a brick wall 3-4 years
from now.  However, nobody wants to blink first and get off v4 train onto
v6 train.

>     ys> "IPv6 all connects the electric stuff at your home together!
>     ys> TVs, ACs, and lamps..."
> 
> in reality it connects together all the many ``boxes'' the cable
> company gives you as they slowly take over everything in your home.
> phones, stereo, three televisions, all your computers.  There aren't
> enough rfc1918 addresses, and they want to retain central control of
>
> all your appliances even after you buy them.  It complicates things for
> them to reuse addresses between homes.  The devices might not even be on
> the Internet, but their own corporate/customer network is so big---as
> single companies buy up the infrastructure of entire nations and
> continents, the real technical need is for a convenient way of assigning
> bigger blocks of numbers than a /8 to a single entity.
There's more than one way to do things, v6 not required to enable it. The 
real pressing problem is the v4 space exhaustion.



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Nov 12 13:47:52 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:47:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] O3Spaces
Message-ID: <47389FD8.9000007@ceetonetechnology.com>

We need a solution for document management like Sharepoint, with 
revision control and ease of use for non-technical users.

Yes, we've considered wikis. . .

Anyone use O3Spaces?

It apparently integrates nicely with OpenOffice.org, and we could 
probably install the RPM on FBSD.

Anyone have experience with http://www.o3spaces.com/?

g


From carton at Ivy.NET  Mon Nov 12 19:37:59 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:37:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121225360.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	(Alex Pilosov's message of "Mon,
	12 Nov 2007 12:36:07 -0500 (EST)")
References: <oqejev76p7.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121225360.22420-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <oq64076kuw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "ap" == Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> writes:

    >> * They don't want filesharing to work without setting up
    >> complicated port-mapping mumbo jumbo?  (probably more the cable
    >> company than the phone company though)
    ap> What does that have to do with v6.  I don't think any
    ap> filesharing protocols are v6-enabled anyway ;)

with v6 AOLeet users don't need to add a port-mapping to their Linksys
box or use uPNP or any of that complicated stuff.  There's no NAT, so
it just works.

    >> * They're afraid of a plug-in ``hosting appliance?''
    ap> What does that have to do with v6.

plenty of static global addresses in every home make a market for
idiotproof cheapo hosting appliances that doesn't exist now.  like,
instead of buying shared hosting packages with the rickety PHP
blogware you like preinstalled, you can buy a plastic box that has
this blog running inside it, and plug it into your home LAN.  In fact,
you can buy ten of these wall-wart-powered fanless $100 boxes, each
running a different PHP blogocrapplet or webmail-in-a-box, assign
different FQDN's to each of them, and rope them all together with
crude HTML.  When the blog skin goes out of fashion, or when FLASH 11
comes out with support for blinking DRM videos or whatever these
people desperately want next, you throw the old one in the garbage and
buy a new one, like celfones, another sorta costume-jewelry-like
thing.  Each PHPcrapplet/appliance can be reflashed, reset, wiped,
unplugged, moved to a friend's house, separately, by the user, using
drills and hammers and big red buttons and other tools with which
they're familiar.  With v4, this sort of thing is impossible.

    >> * They want to mediate your communication by making sure
    >> everyone meets each other on some web ``property'', youtube,
    >> itunes, myspace, iDisk.mac.com, gmail---no direct communication
    >> between houses?
    ap> What does that have to do with v6.

with static global addresses, IM clients don't need a central server
any more.  gaim can include a built-in jabber server.

    >>  * They have long-term plans to move your data off your
    >> computers and onto theirs, and then rent it back to you?
    ap> What does that have to do with v6.

with static global address at home, you can mount your home drives
from elsewhere.

without it, you need various idisks and ``extranets''.  AOLeet people
often email things to themselves so they can download it from a
friend's house, because they have no idea how to reach their home
computer.  It's horrifying and pathetic, but not as pathetic as a
couple of these sheisty shops advertising on the radio selling
firewall busters where you install some Windows worm on your PeeCee,
then browse their web page from some infested pay-by-the-minute cafe
computer and take control of the worm, so you can reach your home
computer from anywhere.  v6 takes away their market, because there's
no longer a reason to depend on the central meet-up server to which
they sell you monthly access.

    >> technical need is for a convenient way of assigning bigger
    >> blocks of numbers than a /8 to a single entity.

    ap> There's more than one way to do things, v6 not required to
    ap> enable it. The real pressing problem is the v4 space
    ap> exhaustion.

It may be a corner case or not the most important problem, but still,
this is an example of where v6 is in use _right now_, and the reason
why.

-- 
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this fortune, you agree, on behalf of your employer,
to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all
NON-NEGOTIATED  agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap,
browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use
policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its
partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my
ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the
authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
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From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 12 19:51:15 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:51:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <oq64076kuw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121945350.30801-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Miles Nordin wrote:

> >>>>> "ap" == Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> writes:
> 
>     >> * They don't want filesharing to work without setting up
>     >> complicated port-mapping mumbo jumbo?  (probably more the cable
>     >> company than the phone company though)
>     ap> What does that have to do with v6.  I don't think any
>     ap> filesharing protocols are v6-enabled anyway ;)
> 
> with v6 AOLeet users don't need to add a port-mapping to their Linksys
> box or use uPNP or any of that complicated stuff.  There's no NAT, so it
> just works.
lack of need for nat on v6 is a myth. you still need to nat to reach v4 
space, which will be necessary for foreseen future (>10 years).

see: http://www.nanog.org/mtg-0710/presentations/Bush-v6-op-reality.pdf 
slide 12

also, upnp works just fine.

>     >> * They're afraid of a plug-in ``hosting appliance?''
>     ap> What does that have to do with v6.
> 
> plenty of static global addresses in every home make a market for
> idiotproof cheapo hosting appliances that doesn't exist now.  like,
> instead of buying shared hosting packages with the rickety PHP
> blogware you like preinstalled, you can buy a plastic box that has
> this blog running inside it, and plug it into your home LAN.  In fact,
<snip>
trust me, they exist now for v4, and nobody cares.

>     >> * They want to mediate your communication by making sure
>     >> everyone meets each other on some web ``property'', youtube,
>     >> itunes, myspace, iDisk.mac.com, gmail---no direct communication
>     >> between houses?
>     ap> What does that have to do with v6.
> 
> with static global addresses, IM clients don't need a central server any
> more.  gaim can include a built-in jabber server.
uh

ips will not be global and static. more myths. you will not have a
portable and permanently assigned IP address. If you want static IP
(non-portable) you can do it just as well with v4 as with v6. No real
difference. You cannot have permanent and portable v4 or v6 address.


>     >>  * They have long-term plans to move your data off your
>     >> computers and onto theirs, and then rent it back to you?
>     ap> What does that have to do with v6.
> 
> with static global address at home, you can mount your home drives
> from elsewhere.
see above.

> without it, you need various idisks and ``extranets''.  AOLeet people
> often email things to themselves so they can download it from a friend's
> house, because they have no idea how to reach their home computer.  
> It's horrifying and pathetic, but not as pathetic as a couple of these
> sheisty shops advertising on the radio selling firewall busters where
> you install some Windows worm on your PeeCee, then browse their web page
> from some infested pay-by-the-minute cafe computer and take control of
> the worm, so you can reach your home computer from anywhere.  v6 takes
> away their market, because there's no longer a reason to depend on the
> central meet-up server to which they sell you monthly access.
nothing to do with v6. there'll be v6 firewalls (outbound-traffic-only)  
enabled by default which will need to be worked around (to get in) just as
well as current v4 firewalls.

-alex



From carton at Ivy.NET  Mon Nov 12 20:16:03 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:16:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121945350.30801-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	(Alex Pilosov's message of "Mon,
	12 Nov 2007 19:51:15 -0500 (EST)")
References: <oq64076kuw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121945350.30801-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <oq1wav6j3g.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "ap" == Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> writes:

    ap> <snip> trust me, they exist now for v4, and nobody cares.

uh yeah, but the point is the only people remedial enough to want them
can't use them because these people have a single dynamic IP.  Nobody
cares because the people who can run them have better ways to do the
same thing.  And since each box would eat an IP, I don't have that
kind of v4 space to burn, so I wouldn't run them myself even if I
didn't dislike them.

with v6, this spurned class of device gets a crack at a newer,
less-sophisticated, and larger audience.

    ap> ips will not be global and static. more myths. you will not
    ap> have a portable and permanently assigned IP address. 

    ap> You cannot have permanent and portable v4 or v6 address.

Current jabber servers don't need PI-portable space to run, either.
That's what DNS is for.

    ap> If you want static IP (non-portable) you can do it just as
    ap> well with v4 as with v6. No real difference.

yes good point.  Just having static v4 addresses like your ADSL,
instead of dynamic, for typical home accounts would permit lots of
things we can't do now.  but:

 (1) there's a question, which box gets the static IP?  Generally it's
     some SOHO router.  With v6, the box on which gaim is running can
     have a static global IP.

     Yes, I know, the IP changes when you change ISP's.  but not
     unexpectedly and not daily/weekly.

 (2) the hope is, aside from DoCoMo, most ISP's won't bother forcing
     end systems onto dynamic addresses.  It's hard because:

     (a) it's not working super well to have an address changing
         ~daily with the stateless autoconfig mechanism.  They could
         maybe set pltime very low, though.

     (b) because now that the prefix on the wire is changing it'll
         screw up noticeable things like local file and printer
         sharing when your prefix changes.  There's some support for
         keeping alive old TCP circuits on a ``deprecated'' prefix if
         they leave vltime set to something long, but I bet it won't
         work well.

yeah, you're right, IPv6 is only _needed_ for (1).  But I started out
saying ``here are some reasons big ISP's may want to keep IPv6 out of
homes as long as possible.''  (2) is such a reason---if they can't get
their dynamic address garbage to work, they might not like giving any
kind of static address, even a v6 one.

I hadn't considered they might give out dynamic v6 prefixes.  I guess
that's worth worrying about.

-- 
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this fortune, you agree, on behalf of your employer,
to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all
NON-NEGOTIATED  agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap,
browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use
policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its
partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my
ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the
authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
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From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 12 20:30:02 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:30:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <oq1wav6j3g.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711122027530.30801-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Miles Nordin wrote:

> >>>>> "ap" == Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> writes:
> 
>     ap> <snip> trust me, they exist now for v4, and nobody cares.
> 
> uh yeah, but the point is the only people remedial enough to want them
> can't use them because these people have a single dynamic IP.  Nobody
> cares because the people who can run them have better ways to do the
> same thing.  And since each box would eat an IP, I don't have that kind
> of v4 space to burn, so I wouldn't run them myself even if I didn't
> dislike them.
setting up a port 80 mapping takes a minute. how many webservers do you
want in your apartment?

> with v6, this spurned class of device gets a crack at a newer,
> less-sophisticated, and larger audience.
> 
>     ap> ips will not be global and static. more myths. you will not
>     ap> have a portable and permanently assigned IP address.
> 
>     ap> You cannot have permanent and portable v4 or v6 address.
> 
> Current jabber servers don't need PI-portable space to run, either.
> That's what DNS is for.
then what's wrong with dyndns for v4?

>     ap> If you want static IP (non-portable) you can do it just as
>     ap> well with v4 as with v6. No real difference.
> 
> yes good point.  Just having static v4 addresses like your ADSL,
> instead of dynamic, for typical home accounts would permit lots of
> things we can't do now.  but:
> 
>  (1) there's a question, which box gets the static IP?  Generally it's
>      some SOHO router.  With v6, the box on which gaim is running can
>      have a static global IP.

> 
>      Yes, I know, the IP changes when you change ISP's.  but not
>      unexpectedly and not daily/weekly.
i had same static ip on timed warner for 2+ years. ymmv.

>  (2) the hope is, aside from DoCoMo, most ISP's won't bother forcing
>      end systems onto dynamic addresses.  It's hard because:
> 
>      (a) it's not working super well to have an address changing
>          ~daily with the stateless autoconfig mechanism.  They could
>          maybe set pltime very low, though.
> 
>      (b) because now that the prefix on the wire is changing it'll
>          screw up noticeable things like local file and printer
>          sharing when your prefix changes.  There's some support for
>          keeping alive old TCP circuits on a ``deprecated'' prefix if
>          they leave vltime set to something long, but I bet it won't
>          work well.
> 
> yeah, you're right, IPv6 is only _needed_ for (1).  But I started out
> saying ``here are some reasons big ISP's may want to keep IPv6 out of
> homes as long as possible.'' (2) is such a reason---if they can't get
> their dynamic address garbage to work, they might not like giving any
> kind of static address, even a v6 one.
> 
> I hadn't considered they might give out dynamic v6 prefixes.  I guess
> that's worth worrying about.
why wouldn't they?

there's no fundamental difference between v4 and v6. stop trying to 
pretend there is - those are myths. its just more ips.

-alex



From carton at Ivy.NET  Mon Nov 12 21:01:12 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 21:01:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] IPv6 Followup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711122027530.30801-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	(Alex Pilosov's message of "Mon,
	12 Nov 2007 20:30:02 -0500 (EST)")
References: <oq1wav6j3g.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711122027530.30801-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <oqwssm6h07.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "ap" == Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> writes:

    ap> why wouldn't they?

    ap> there's no fundamental difference between v4 and v6.

Because there is no NAT, all end devices need to notice when the
prefix changes.  This includes things like inkjet printers, voip
phones, and wireless speakers.  Their stacks will all have to be
tested to do the autoconfig/deprecation thing ``well enough.''  An
in-house nameservice will be necessary, while right now for some
things like printers you can type in their rfc1918 IP's by hand.
There may still be glitches if all the devices don't reconfigure at
the same time, and confusion in nameservice because devices have more
than one address.  A dynamic v6 prefix is messier than the status quo.

That doesn't make me believe they won't do it, either, but it will 
cause new problems.
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Fri Nov 16 20:54:17 2007
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:54:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Logical Volume Management in FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20071117015417.GB61413@sunset.nomadlogic.org>

Hi All - working on a project here and am having a little brain fart.
I've been hacking on zfs+netbsd's iscsi target on FreeBSD-7 but have run
into a stability issue.  so, while i'm going to try to squash that bug,
i need to keep moving forward with my iscsi target project which leads
me to this issue.

i can't seem to find a logical volume manager on 6-RELEASE.  to clarify,
i don't need a software RAID, mirroring or stripping but would like to
take a large disk and carve 20gb volumes from it.  reading the vinum and
GEOM man pages do not seem to offer anything similar to this - has
anyone else run into this issue?


thanks!
-pete 

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
310.869.9459



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sat Nov 17 16:41:51 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:41:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Dec 13 Holiday Party
Message-ID: <473F601F.4040103@ceetonetechnology.com>

Greetings. . .

As everyone should know by now, we have Suspenders in full reserved for 
the Dec 13th Holiday Party.

We are still looking for some additional sponsors, and if interested, 
contact me off list.

Please remember, it is compulsory to register for the event at 
www.orgcom.info to be able to get in. . .

There will be an open bar (yeah, really) from 6:30 to 8:30 pm, but of 
course you don't have to leave at 8:30 pm :)

George


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 01:51:02 2007
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 01:51:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Logical Volume Management in FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20071117015417.GB61413@sunset.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20071117015417.GB61413@sunset.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <aa9991030711172251t12e7e355s20a5c717622a0cbf@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 16, 2007 8:54 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> Hi All - working on a project here and am having a little brain fart.
> I've been hacking on zfs+netbsd's iscsi target on FreeBSD-7 but have run
> into a stability issue.  so, while i'm going to try to squash that bug,
> i need to keep moving forward with my iscsi target project which leads
> me to this issue.
>
> i can't seem to find a logical volume manager on 6-RELEASE.  to clarify,
> i don't need a software RAID, mirroring or stripping but would like to
> take a large disk and carve 20gb volumes from it.  reading the vinum and
> GEOM man pages do not seem to offer anything similar to this - has
> anyone else run into this issue?
>
>
> thanks!
> -pete
>
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 301.260.9278 x49

Edit the disklabel and use makefs?

-jesse


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 15:36:52 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:36:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] happy thanks giving to all
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711211236o714ae258vfcf447ab8f3924a@mail.gmail.com>

nuff said,

narc

-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Thu Nov 22 23:06:42 2007
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:06:42 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions
Message-ID: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>

Greetings-

I was wandering around the internet and I found this blog post about
a persons first impressions on the eeePC, which we have talked about on
this list a few times.

http://tinyurl.com/2lx4es

In a nutshell, the machine ships with some proprietary hardware, and to get
the wireless to work you need to use ndiswrapper.

In addition, the acpi module that they shipped is a modified version of
the asus_acpi kernel module from Linux 2.6.21.4. Asus apparently has not made
the source available, which is a violation of the GPL

I was planning on picking up one of these, but now that the retail price is
$399, combined with the fact that it doesn't look like you'll be able to
get BSD fully working on it, I think I am going to pass

-- 
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Nov 22 23:37:14 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (george at ceetonetechnology.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:37:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>
References: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <20071122233714.4uypoatp6sows8wk@business.loftmail.com>

Quoting Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com>:

> Greetings-
>
> I was wandering around the internet and I found this blog post about
> a persons first impressions on the eeePC, which we have talked about on
> this list a few times.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2lx4es
>

Interesting stuff. . .

> In a nutshell, the machine ships with some proprietary hardware, and to get
> the wireless to work you need to use ndiswrapper.
>

Eeek.

I had just heard it had atheros-based wireless, so in discussion after  
the last meeting, a few of us assumed ath on FBSD would work nicely. . .

> In addition, the acpi module that they shipped is a modified version of
> the asus_acpi kernel module from Linux 2.6.21.4. Asus apparently has not made
> the source available, which is a violation of the GPL


You gotta laugh at the GPL issue .. . I mean, end of the day, GPL ends  
up being the BSD license in practice.  With a distortion of the  
attribution clause.


>
> I was planning on picking up one of these, but now that the retail price is
> $399, combined with the fact that it doesn't look like you'll be able to
> get BSD fully working on it, I think I am going to pass
>

Yeah. . . you can note from earlier posts I was extremely enthusiastic . .

Then the delays happened, the price doubled, then the local vendor a  
number of us use got screwed by the distributors. . . Now I'm in limbo  
on it.

But with the driver issue (no ndis for me. . .) affecting at least the  
wireless if you want to run a BSD, then, err, I'll stay in limbo.

And this junk about ruining the warranty when opening to access the  
OPEN mini pci slot is just nuts.  Apparently, some later production  
runs of the current available model do not have the extra available  
slot.

It really would have worked out nicely if everything had vaguely  
resembled what they seemed.

g



From nycbug at cyth.net  Fri Nov 23 02:13:58 2007
From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 02:12:58 +1859
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <20071122233714.4uypoatp6sows8wk@business.loftmail.com>
References: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>
	<20071122233714.4uypoatp6sows8wk@business.loftmail.com>
Message-ID: <7765c0380711222313l362a9b70xca0facc1147d79fe@mail.gmail.com>

Off topic, but if you guys are interested in the OLPC, it is available
until November 26 to North Americans: http://laptopgiving.org/

-Ray-


On Nov 23, 2007 11:36 PM,  <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
> Quoting Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com>:
>
> > Greetings-
> >
> > I was wandering around the internet and I found this blog post about
> > a persons first impressions on the eeePC, which we have talked about on
> > this list a few times.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/2lx4es
> >
>
> Interesting stuff. . .
>
> > In a nutshell, the machine ships with some proprietary hardware, and to get
> > the wireless to work you need to use ndiswrapper.
> >
>
> Eeek.
>
> I had just heard it had atheros-based wireless, so in discussion after
> the last meeting, a few of us assumed ath on FBSD would work nicely. . .
>
> > In addition, the acpi module that they shipped is a modified version of
> > the asus_acpi kernel module from Linux 2.6.21.4. Asus apparently has not made
> > the source available, which is a violation of the GPL
>
>
> You gotta laugh at the GPL issue .. . I mean, end of the day, GPL ends
> up being the BSD license in practice.  With a distortion of the
> attribution clause.
>
>
> >
> > I was planning on picking up one of these, but now that the retail price is
> > $399, combined with the fact that it doesn't look like you'll be able to
> > get BSD fully working on it, I think I am going to pass
> >
>
> Yeah. . . you can note from earlier posts I was extremely enthusiastic . .
>
> Then the delays happened, the price doubled, then the local vendor a
> number of us use got screwed by the distributors. . . Now I'm in limbo
> on it.
>
> But with the driver issue (no ndis for me. . .) affecting at least the
> wireless if you want to run a BSD, then, err, I'll stay in limbo.
>
> And this junk about ruining the warranty when opening to access the
> OPEN mini pci slot is just nuts.  Apparently, some later production
> runs of the current available model do not have the extra available
> slot.
>
> It really would have worked out nicely if everything had vaguely
> resembled what they seemed.
>
>
> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca  Fri Nov 23 13:27:06 2007
From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (Dru)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:27:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] looks like UKUUG would miss BSD...
Message-ID: <20071123132555.P636@dru.domain.org>


Too late for sysadmin day but cute vid nonetheless:

http://www.ukuug.org/sysadminday/

Other formats are available for those of you who don't do flash...

Dru


From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Fri Nov 23 14:02:05 2007
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:02:05 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <7765c0380711222313l362a9b70xca0facc1147d79fe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>
	<20071122233714.4uypoatp6sows8wk@business.loftmail.com>
	<7765c0380711222313l362a9b70xca0facc1147d79fe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071123190205.GA10850@clamps.exit2shell.com>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 02:12:58AM +1859, Ray Lai wrote:
> Off topic, but if you guys are interested in the OLPC, it is available
> until November 26 to North Americans: http://laptopgiving.org/
> 
> -Ray-
> 
> 

It was announced yesterday that they are going to extend the program to
Dec 31st

http://tinyurl.com/2jncgt

-- 
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer


From trish at bsdunix.net  Fri Nov 23 14:14:56 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:14:56 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <20071123190205.GA10850@clamps.exit2shell.com>
References: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com><20071122233714.4uypoatp6sows8wk@business.loftmail.com><7765c0380711222313l362a9b70xca0facc1147d79fe@mail.gmail.com><20071123190205.GA10850@clamps.exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <56224867-1195845301-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2085243722-@bxe023.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

If I had the cash I'd get one for my 5 year old - but maybe next year.
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com>

Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:02:05 
To:Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net>
Cc:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions


On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 02:12:58AM +1859, Ray Lai wrote:
> Off topic, but if you guys are interested in the OLPC, it is available
> until November 26 to North Americans: http://laptopgiving.org/
>
> -Ray-
>
>

It was announced yesterday that they are going to extend the program to
Dec 31st

http://tinyurl.com/2jncgt

--
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 18:49:18 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:49:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asus eeePC First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>
References: <20071123040642.GA27230@clamps.exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711241549x1361019ei538ea78d02a0e8cd@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2007 11:06 PM, Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com> wrote:
> Greetings
>
> In addition, the acpi module that they shipped is a modified version of
> the asus_acpi kernel module from Linux 2.6.21.4. Asus apparently has not made
> the source available, which is a violation of the GPL
>

That is not a violation of the gpl as the linux kernel licnese has an
exception for drivers that it links to, which interestingly enough
*is* a violation of the gpl on linuxs part by keeping the name GPL but
substantially changing the scope of the license. <hehehehe>  So take
it up with linus  torvold(sp?)

marc

-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  Mon Nov 26 09:23:21 2007
From: jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:23:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
Message-ID: <474AD6D9.1030400@3phasecomputing.com>

http://xkcd.com/349/

"If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow water."

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405


From andy.kosela at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 13:43:05 2007
From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:43:05 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <474AD6D9.1030400@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <474AD6D9.1030400@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80711261043v8edb575rfacf2d556041d990@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com> wrote:
> http://xkcd.com/349/
>
> "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow water."

Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
especially old RPM world :P
Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always on the horizon.

"If it works don't fix it" be my motto :)

--
Andy Kosela


From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 26 13:50:39 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:50:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80711261043v8edb575rfacf2d556041d990@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:

> On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
> wrote:
> > http://xkcd.com/349/
> >
> > "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
> > water."
> 
> Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
> especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
> on the horizon.
If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not 
more.

-alex



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Nov 26 13:55:19 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:55:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <474B1697.6080800@ceetonetechnology.com>

Alex Pilosov wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
>> wrote:
>>> http://xkcd.com/349/
>>>
>>> "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
>>> water."
>> Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
>> especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
>> on the horizon.
> If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not 
> more.

Painful?  Probably. . . but I would never do that on a Linux.

George


From jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  Mon Nov 26 13:56:22 2007
From: jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:56:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <474B16D6.2070506@3phasecomputing.com>

on 2007-11-26 13:50 Alex Pilosov said the following:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
>> wrote:
>>> http://xkcd.com/349/
>>> "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
>>> water."
>> Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
>> especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
>> on the horizon.
> If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not 
> more.

...and slower, and makes you wonder if maybe swimming from the sharks 
isn't that bad.

> -alex

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405


From andy.kosela at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 14:34:20 2007
From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:34:20 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <3cc535c80711261043v8edb575rfacf2d556041d990@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261350080.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80711261134r5a279726k487906d9fb277fb6@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 7:50 PM, Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>
> > On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
> > wrote:
> > > http://xkcd.com/349/
> > >
> > > "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
> > > water."
> >
> > Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
> > especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
> > on the horizon.
> If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not
> more.
>

Honestly I don't know about what kind of pain you are talking about :)
I never had any problems with 'make buildworld' in Security Branch and
that's what
I use on any production servers. Sometimes things can break in STABLE
or CURRENT, but
that's acceptable if you know why those branches exist.

Best regards,
Andy Kosela


From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 26 14:43:34 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:43:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80711261134r5a279726k487906d9fb277fb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261440160.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:

> On Nov 26, 2007 7:50 PM, Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > http://xkcd.com/349/
> > > >
> > > > "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
> > > > water."
> > >
> > > Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
> > > especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
> > > on the horizon.
> > If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not
> > more.
> >
> 
> Honestly I don't know about what kind of pain you are talking about :) I
> never had any problems with 'make buildworld' in Security Branch and
> that's what I use on any production servers. Sometimes things can break
> in STABLE or CURRENT, but that's acceptable if you know why those
> branches exist.
!&*@#*&!

Apples to apples, please. security-branch upgrades should be compared to 
RPM upgrades in security branch (ie. same underlying package, like going 
from net-snmp-3.3-1 to net-snmp-3.3-2). Those upgrades don't really count.


-alex



From nycbug at cyth.net  Mon Nov 26 15:09:08 2007
From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:09:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ShmooCon
Message-ID: <7765c0380711261209i8d79cdfv76dc506e68bb6c4b@mail.gmail.com>

Remember!  Next round of tickets go on sale on Dec. 1 noon!

-Ray-


From spork at bway.net  Mon Nov 26 16:07:15 2007
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:07:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261440160.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261440160.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0711261605360.31132@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Alex Pilosov wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>
>> On Nov 26, 2007 7:50 PM, Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> http://xkcd.com/349/
>>>>>
>>>>> "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
>>>>> water."
>>>>
>>>> Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
>>>> especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
>>>> on the horizon.
>>> If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not
>>> more.
>>>
>>
>> Honestly I don't know about what kind of pain you are talking about :) I
>> never had any problems with 'make buildworld' in Security Branch and
>> that's what I use on any production servers. Sometimes things can break
>> in STABLE or CURRENT, but that's acceptable if you know why those
>> branches exist.
> !&*@#*&!
>
> Apples to apples, please. security-branch upgrades should be compared to
> RPM upgrades in security branch (ie. same underlying package, like going
> from net-snmp-3.3-1 to net-snmp-3.3-2). Those upgrades don't really count.

No.  You are talking about added applications.  FreeBSD is an OS, not a 
collection of random pkgs+kernel.

I don't get all the "pain" though, and this comes from someone that's been 
doing a bunch of source upgrades from 4.11 to 6.2.  Maybe I'm just a lot 
better at this than I thought I was.

C

>
> -alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 26 16:13:19 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:13:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0711261605360.31132@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261610270.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> > Apples to apples, please. security-branch upgrades should be compared
> > to RPM upgrades in security branch (ie. same underlying package, like
> > going from net-snmp-3.3-1 to net-snmp-3.3-2). Those upgrades don't
> > really count.
> 
> No.  You are talking about added applications.  FreeBSD is an OS, not a
> collection of random pkgs+kernel.
Whichever. If you talk about security upgrades, they are painless on any
OS. If you are talking about wholesale upgrades (moving from fedora 1 to
fedora 6 vs fbsd 5 to 6 to give approximately similar date range), they
are painful.

> I don't get all the "pain" though, and this comes from someone that's
> been doing a bunch of source upgrades from 4.11 to 6.2.  Maybe I'm just
> a lot better at this than I thought I was.
Sure, once you do it the first time, its much easier - but same applies to
RPM case just as well. But, the original point stands, once you started on
the upgrade, shit breaks, there's no turning back and you usually just
want to get system back into operation.

-alex



From trish at bsdunix.net  Mon Nov 26 16:15:03 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:15:03 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...
Message-ID: <685446871-1196111711-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-267157936-@bxe139.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I thought the same thing - I've done source upgrades from 21.6 to 8.0-CURRENT and never had a hard time - I would never attempt building a complete system from Linux kernel and GNU binaries like that....

Again - apples to oranges - we're talking about building a full operating system/kernel/tools - if you want to talk about rpm upgrades - yes - maybe linux has it better than portupgrade - but I prefer to do a pkg_delete and a make && make install in a newer version port tree any day than rpm upgrade.

-Trish
------Original Message------
From: Charles Sprickman
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
To: Alex Pilosov
Cc: talk at lists.nycbug.org
Sent: Nov 26, 2007 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] of course you've all seen this already...

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Alex Pilosov wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>
>> On Nov 26, 2007 7:50 PM, Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 26, 2007 3:23 PM, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> http://xkcd.com/349/
>>>>>
>>>>> "If we're lucky, the sharks will stay away until we reach shallow
>>>>> water."
>>>>
>>>> Funny, but I honestly think it applies more to the Linux world,
>>>> especially old RPM world :P Anyway the dangers of upgrading are always
>>>> on the horizon.
>>> If you ever did 'make buildworld'...its just as painful as RPM, if not
>>> more.
>>>
>>
>> Honestly I don't know about what kind of pain you are talking about :) I
>> never had any problems with 'make buildworld' in Security Branch and
>> that's what I use on any production servers. Sometimes things can break
>> in STABLE or CURRENT, but that's acceptable if you know why those
>> branches exist.
> !&*@#*&!
>
> Apples to apples, please. security-branch upgrades should be compared to
> RPM upgrades in security branch (ie. same underlying package, like going
> from net-snmp-3.3-1 to net-snmp-3.3-2). Those upgrades don't really count.

No.  You are talking about added applications.  FreeBSD is an OS, not a
collection of random pkgs+kernel.

I don't get all the "pain" though, and this comes from someone that's been
doing a bunch of source upgrades from 4.11 to 6.2.  Maybe I'm just a lot
better at this than I thought I was.

C

>
> -alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


-- 
Trish Lynch  

From mspitzer at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 17:44:24 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:44:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ShmooCon
In-Reply-To: <7765c0380711261209i8d79cdfv76dc506e68bb6c4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7765c0380711261209i8d79cdfv76dc506e68bb6c4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711261444i2c976690kced134b9d1fb199b@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 3:09 PM, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> Remember!  Next round of tickets go on sale on Dec. 1 noon!
>

Tick tock ....

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 18:04:40 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:04:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] from craigs list via sdf
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711261504i14cea72as59d450a6fba23690@mail.gmail.com>

http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/m4w/485967082.html

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From alex at pilosoft.com  Mon Nov 26 19:53:16 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:53:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] from craigs list via sdf
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30711261504i14cea72as59d450a6fba23690@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261953050.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/m4w/485967082.html
oh the smell of desperation....



From mspitzer at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 20:26:05 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:26:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] from craigs list via sdf
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261953050.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <8c50a3c30711261504i14cea72as59d450a6fba23690@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261953050.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30711261726k2e334858u38d3c1d2d29f1b17@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 7:53 PM, Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
> > http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/m4w/485967082.html
> oh the smell of desperation....
>
>

It gets worse then that, neither one of them will do windows.

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From tekronis at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 20:31:09 2007
From: tekronis at gmail.com (H. G.)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:31:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd:  from craigs list via sdf
In-Reply-To: <60131f920711261729t563d75dyd416b29f1196a611@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30711261504i14cea72as59d450a6fba23690@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711261953050.11086-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<60131f920711261729t563d75dyd416b29f1196a611@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60131f920711261731m193cb65cke30567363ff2f11d@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/26/07, Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
> > http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/m4w/485967082.html
> oh the smell of desperation....
>
> But there is a hint of truth there.... the bona fide shell user
species are indeed nearing extinction.  We should all work
towards restoring their population.

So instead of F---ing ("_F_ornication _U_nder _C_onsent of the
_K_ing"), we'll FADE instead. (Fornication Against Danger of
Extinction.)  I think it'll catch on; perhaps even become a
major holiday.  *nix geeks everywhere will be grateful, for
their lineage will be assured!

Forward, men (and women)! Replenish our stock, and assure
our progeny!
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From max at neuropunks.org  Tue Nov 27 19:06:08 2007
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:06:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: need help with global ipv6 topology measurement]
Message-ID: <474CB0F0.7050506@neuropunks.org>

crosspost rulez!

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	need help with global ipv6 topology measurement
Date: 	Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:55:42 -0800
From: 	k claffy <kc at caida.org>
To: 	nanog at merit.edu




if you have ipv6 connectivity and are willing to volunteer
some (low bandwidth) v6 traceroute data to a good cause
(== a topology map of observed ipv6 connectivity), please
help us out for a few ( estimated < 15) min with:

http://www.caida.org/data/how-to/scamper/ipv6-collection-2007/

please share w all your ipv6friends,
k