From skreuzer at exit2shell.com Tue Jul 1 14:28:21 2008 From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:28:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Xinerama in X.org Message-ID: <486A7745.7090204@exit2shell.com> I have a Matrox G450 video card hooked up to two monitors. I have been running Xinerama mode in X.org without problems for a while and I recently did a portupgrade on everything installed on my system. After that, I have been unable to get Xinerama to work at all. I have been looking into this issue on and off for close to a month and I still have no idea what is going on. $ pciconf -l -v vgapci0 at pci0:1:0:0: class=0x030000 card=0x0541102b chip=0x0525102b rev=0x82 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Matrox Electronic Systems Ltd.' device = 'MGA G450 Dual Head Chip of G450 graphics card' class = display subclass = VGA xorg.conf: http://pastebin.com/m6a85502e Xorg.0.log: http://pastebin.com/m6f9374ca As far as I can tell, everything is setup correctly. If anyone has any helpful advice, please let me know. I might be overlooking something very obvious. SK From skreuzer at exit2shell.com Wed Jul 2 12:41:43 2008 From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:41:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Secondary DNS In-Reply-To: <20080630012312.T86002@mercury.atopia.net> References: <20080630012312.T86002@mercury.atopia.net> Message-ID: <20080702164143.GB11428@slurry.exit2shell.com> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 01:24:09AM -0400, Matt Juszczak wrote: > I need a secondary DNS provider for my company. Before I pay one of those > expensive sites, or launch a VPS server strictly for DNS, thought I'd ping > the list to see if anyone offered this service and/or could offer this > service. > > I wouldn't mind paying something reasonable. > > -Matt > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk I use zoneedit.com for exit2shell.com, as well as 2 other domains. -- Steven Kreuzer http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer From swygue at gmail.com Wed Jul 2 13:45:09 2008 From: swygue at gmail.com (Rodrique Heron) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:45:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] How sendmail configs are process Message-ID: <486BBEA5.9070205@gmail.com> Hello All- Anyone knows the order which sendmail processes its configs: access, aliases, virtusertable, mailertable etc. Thanks From nikolai at fetissov.org Thu Jul 3 00:10:54 2008 From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 00:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] July 2008 meeting audio Message-ID: <85bf3ffe7643fd97f312d155a54e5bb6.squirrel@www.geekisp.com> Folks, Audio of Steven's presentation is online at http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbug/ Cheers. -- Nikolai From thomas at zaph.org Thu Jul 3 11:45:35 2008 From: thomas at zaph.org (thomas at zaph.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:45:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book Message-ID: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> For those of you that want to follow up on Steve's presentation from yesterday, I recommend the cfengine book(let) from the Usenix/SAGE short-topics series: http://www.sage.org/pubs/16_cfengine/ If you're a SAGE member, you can view the book as a PDF for free, or you can purchase the booklet for $15 (non-members). It's written by the author of cfengine (Mark Burgess) and Aeleen Frisch (she wrote the O'Reilly sysadmin book). Thomas From pete at nomadlogic.org Thu Jul 3 12:44:52 2008 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (pete) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:44:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book In-Reply-To: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> References: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:45:35 -0400, thomas at zaph.org wrote: > For those of you that want to follow up on Steve's presentation from > yesterday, I recommend the cfengine book(let) from the Usenix/SAGE > short-topics series: > > http://www.sage.org/pubs/16_cfengine/ > > If you're a SAGE member, you can view the book as a PDF for free, or you > can purchase the booklet for $15 (non-members). > > It's written by the author of cfengine (Mark Burgess) and Aeleen Frisch > (she wrote the O'Reilly sysadmin book). > That's a great pamphlet from Usenix! I also am a fan of "Automating Unix and Linux Administraton" by Kirk Bauer (A! Press). Covers some basics regarding cfengine, and there are some other useful hints in there too. Probably a good addition to your sysadmin team room for the junior guys. -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org 310.869.9459 From bonsaime at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 16:55:52 2008 From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:55:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book In-Reply-To: References: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 12:44 PM, pete wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:45:35 -0400, thomas at zaph.org wrote: >> For those of you that want to follow up on Steve's presentation from >> yesterday, I recommend the cfengine book(let) from the Usenix/SAGE >> short-topics series: >> >> http://www.sage.org/pubs/16_cfengine/ >> >> If you're a SAGE member, you can view the book as a PDF for free, or you >> can purchase the booklet for $15 (non-members). >> >> It's written by the author of cfengine (Mark Burgess) and Aeleen Frisch >> (she wrote the O'Reilly sysadmin book). >> > > That's a great pamphlet from Usenix! I also am a fan of "Automating Unix > and Linux Administraton" by Kirk Bauer (A! Press). Covers some basics > regarding cfengine, and there are some other useful hints in there too. > Probably a good addition to your sysadmin team room for the junior guys. > > -pete > ... like me ; ) thanks for the suggestion. My takeaway from last night's meeting was that cfengine is entirely inappropriate for use where I work... too diverse of a base of computers. Too bad! I've got to just stick with RCS and rsync. Why not SVN? Less typing, which makes me more apt to use it. -jesse From spork at bway.net Thu Jul 3 17:16:12 2008 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] cvsup server reachable via IPv6... (fwd) Message-ID: For Ike and others interested in IPv6: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:14:10 -0400 From: Ken Smith To: freebsd-stable , freebsd-current at freebsd.org Subject: cvsup server reachable via IPv6... If any of you have been wishing there was an IPv6-capable cvsup server you could use (with csup as the client obviously since cvsup doesn't do IPv6...) give cvsup18.freebsd.org a try. With the help of a few other folks I got nudged into giving inetd/netcat a try as a means to feed IPv6 connections to the cvsupd server process. If you try it and have problems let me know. cvsup18 is my "little server" (handles between 200 and 300 connects a day) but if this seems to work OK I can give it a try on my "big server" (handles between 3000 and 4000 connects a day...). -- Ken Smith - From there to here, from here to | kensmith at cse.buffalo.edu there, funny things are everywhere. | - Theodore Geisel | From pete at nomadlogic.org Thu Jul 3 17:18:39 2008 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (pete) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:18:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book In-Reply-To: References: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> Message-ID: <8f56fde79bc9fffa7e9cef4b1defd7c3@nomadlogic.org> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 16:55:52 -0400, "Jesse Callaway" wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 12:44 PM, pete wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:45:35 -0400, thomas at zaph.org wrote: >>> For those of you that want to follow up on Steve's presentation from >>> yesterday, I recommend the cfengine book(let) from the Usenix/SAGE >>> short-topics series: >>> >>> http://www.sage.org/pubs/16_cfengine/ >>> >>> If you're a SAGE member, you can view the book as a PDF for free, or > you >>> can purchase the booklet for $15 (non-members). >>> >>> It's written by the author of cfengine (Mark Burgess) and Aeleen Frisch >>> (she wrote the O'Reilly sysadmin book). >>> >> >> That's a great pamphlet from Usenix! I also am a fan of "Automating > Unix >> and Linux Administraton" by Kirk Bauer (A! Press). Covers some basics >> regarding cfengine, and there are some other useful hints in there too. >> Probably a good addition to your sysadmin team room for the junior guys. >> >> -pete >> > > ... like me ; ) > > thanks for the suggestion. My takeaway from last night's meeting was > that cfengine is entirely inappropriate for use where I work... too > diverse of a base of computers. Too bad! > really? i think that's a pretty good asset of cfengine - we use the windows, OSX, solaris, freebsd and linux clients. true - some of the features are not super helpful for windows, but i think it works out pretty well. i like how you can use cfengine to act as a pseudo tripewire/mtree for files like /etc/sudoers,passwd,group, our how you can build in tmpwatch type checks into your environment too. > I've got to just stick with RCS and rsync. Why not SVN? Less typing, > which makes me more apt to use it. yea totally, we had used rdist for ages on our linux and irix machines which basically can achieve the same thing. svn would be fun, you could still have your centralized repo and still get versioning w/o having to throw rsync into the mix. although all these schemes suffer from a pull only system - which may or may not be ok for some folks site. for us, we decided that being able to push out changes from a master server, while also pulling changes every 15 mins gave us the flexibility we need. anywho...wish i could have made the meeting...where there any people pushing puppet :) -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org 310.869.9459 From pete at nomadlogic.org Thu Jul 3 18:07:58 2008 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (pete) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 18:07:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book In-Reply-To: <439BBFA5-7CF1-4AC3-ADE4-731EEC172C16@gmail.com> References: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> <439BBFA5-7CF1-4AC3-ADE4-731EEC172C16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1b769897e1d70f3caf2bae8df1a84586@nomadlogic.org> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:47:06 -0400, Brian Cully wrote: > On 3-Jul-2008, at 16:55, Jesse Callaway wrote: >> thanks for the suggestion. My takeaway from last night's meeting was >> that cfengine is entirely inappropriate for use where I work... too >> diverse of a base of computers. Too bad! > > If you're only using one OS, cfengine is a great tool for > distribution even among a diverse set of workloads. If you're using > more than one OS, it's not worth the headache to try and cram it all > onto one master cfengine box. Just keep one cfengine box per OS > install and you'll still be doing pretty good. > really? that seems kinda wasteful. there is no rule stating you have to have the same distribution tree for every platform or facility: $CFENGINE_HOME/dist/{linux,os_x,solaris,free_bsd,win_nt} works for us. we've actually expanded it to: $CFENGINE_HOME/dist/$FACILITY/$PLATFORM for auditing administration purposes i prefer to have one system as my point of contact for management - rather than having to remeber which distribution server i setup for a given platform/location. when coupled with a SCM like svn/rcs etc. i think it's a pretty supportable scheme. it seems to scale well now (we are in the 10,000+ linux network node range ATM and growing, along with a fair amount of windows, os_x and other unices). > > P.S. > At the job previous, I set up rsync to do pretty much what I was > shooting for cfengine to do later. rsync was substantially easier to > comprehend and get working, but it is absolutely nowhere near as > powerful. cfengine is a bit baroque, has tons of useless (or at least > questionable) features, but does a bang-up job at almost anything you > want it to do. well - i think some may argue that rsync is a transport mechanism - not a configuration management system like cfengine, puppet etc. i think the design goal of cfg mgt systems are to create an environment where systems have the ability to "self heal" or bring themselves into a predefined, consistent state based on rules an policies. although no doubt, you can certainly achieve something close to this using wrappers around rsync. i think once you get past the couple server, workstation environment a cfg mgt system is essential, be it via cfengine, puppet, rdist or homegrown code. at the end of the day i think its the process of sitting down and drawing up policies that you want your systems to adhere to that makes the biggest difference. -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org 310.869.9459 From bcully at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 19:52:56 2008 From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 19:52:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book In-Reply-To: <1b769897e1d70f3caf2bae8df1a84586@nomadlogic.org> References: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> <439BBFA5-7CF1-4AC3-ADE4-731EEC172C16@gmail.com> <1b769897e1d70f3caf2bae8df1a84586@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <1CBCA944-0704-449A-BECD-AA45C05A049D@gmail.com> On 3-Jul-2008, at 18:07, pete wrote: > for auditing administration purposes i prefer to have one system as my > point of contact for management - rather than having to remeber which > distribution server i setup for a given platform/location. when > coupled > with a SCM like svn/rcs etc. i think it's a pretty supportable > scheme. it > seems to scale well now (we are in the 10,000+ linux network node > range ATM > and growing, along with a fair amount of windows, os_x and other > unices). Well, money wasn't an object, and I only had to support FreeBSD, Solaris, and Linux. And really, mostly Solaris. I didn't break down past OS, because my only real hangup was using the dist box as a build host. If I had more OSes to support, I would probably not go with this scheme, but I never had to. > well - i think some may argue that rsync is a transport mechanism - > not a > configuration management system like cfengine, puppet etc. i think > the > design goal of cfg mgt systems are to create an environment where > systems > have the ability to "self heal" or bring themselves into a predefined, > consistent state based on rules an policies. although no doubt, you > can > certainly achieve something close to this using wrappers around rsync. Apologies, I actually meant rdist; it's been over 10 years since I used that system. > i think once you get past the couple server, workstation environment > a cfg > mgt system is essential, be it via cfengine, puppet, rdist or > homegrown > code. at the end of the day i think its the process of sitting down > and > drawing up policies that you want your systems to adhere to that > makes the > biggest difference. Agreed. I shoulda added a rule 4) must be religious about policy. -bjc From ike at lesmuug.org Thu Jul 3 21:17:11 2008 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 21:17:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] somewhat off-topic Message-ID: Hi All, The topic of keeping log data for internet applications, in various contexts and applications, has often been a topic of conversation. With that, I wanted to point out that perhaps the biggest (?) case of log-file mishaps hit the press today: -- Google must divulge YouTube log (to Viacom) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7488009.stm " Leading privacy expert Simon Davies told BBC News that the privacy of millions of YouTube users was threatened. He said: "The chickens have come home to roost for Google. Their arrogance and refusal to listen to friendly advice has resulted in the privacy of tens of millions being placed under threat." Mr Davies said privacy campaigners had warned Google for years that IP addresses were personally identifiable information. Google pledged last year to anonymise IP addresses for search information but it has said nothing about YouTube data. " -- Also, the EFF notes: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/viacoms-statement-youtube-user-data-controversy -- With that, however, it seems to me that the value of simply seeing the data is quantifiably gigantic to Viacom, marketing statistics worth gold... The privacy issues seem like a red herring, to me. Regardless, from any angle- it's a case worth following with regard to the precedence it sets, IMHO. Best, .ike From bcully at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 17:47:06 2008 From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:47:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cfengine book In-Reply-To: References: <20080703154535.GE17752@zaph.org> Message-ID: <439BBFA5-7CF1-4AC3-ADE4-731EEC172C16@gmail.com> On 3-Jul-2008, at 16:55, Jesse Callaway wrote: > thanks for the suggestion. My takeaway from last night's meeting was > that cfengine is entirely inappropriate for use where I work... too > diverse of a base of computers. Too bad! If you're only using one OS, cfengine is a great tool for distribution even among a diverse set of workloads. If you're using more than one OS, it's not worth the headache to try and cram it all onto one master cfengine box. Just keep one cfengine box per OS install and you'll still be doing pretty good. I used to maintain about 16 servers with cfengine, doing a variety of tasks with different requirements. Each of the other groups I worked with did the same, and when I left that job, my cfengine box was rolled into a much larger one from my parent group, which ended up servicing over 50 machines across the country. Making this all work well depends on three things, really: 1) graft (stow, or equivalent), so you can easily maintain various versions of software around (say, one for test, beta, and prod, or for app compatibility, or any number of reasons), 2) a clean hierarchy to work with. We used to break stuff up into / local and /shared, where /local is machine-local, /shared has all our customizations (for everything, always, and this is a good thing). One of the other important things about this is that /everything/ in / local is either a symlink to something in /shared or auto-generated by script. And, 3) A well designed heirarchy of cfengine configs. At this job, we used three levels: global, role, and host. Roles were also composable. Scripts and symlinks were used to change host/role assignment, such that it could all be accomplished from within cfengine (including ifconfig, restarts of services, or even the host itself). With the acknowledgement that Disk Space is Cheap, we clone the entire cfengine box to every host managed by it (sans a couple things in /etc, natch). This gives us network wide backups and (close- to-)instant-on solutions in the event of failure. It also vastly simplifies maintenance assuming you follow the above rules. The reason I don't like using a single cfengine box for multiple OSes is that I also like to use it as a build host and cross-compiling is a nightmare. Money was also never so tight I couldn't just get another box for it. Getting the system up, running, and humming can take quite a bit of work. It gets paid back very quickly, however. I can say without hesitation that cfengine was the only reason I was able to manage as many servers single-handedly as I did. One of the things you need to submit to, in order to fully utilize cfengine, is that you have to give it complete control of your hosts. Frankly, I've always thought my brain was too important for micromanaging hosts, so this wasn't a big deal for me. YMMV. -bjc P.S. At the job previous, I set up rsync to do pretty much what I was shooting for cfengine to do later. rsync was substantially easier to comprehend and get working, but it is absolutely nowhere near as powerful. cfengine is a bit baroque, has tons of useless (or at least questionable) features, but does a bang-up job at almost anything you want it to do. From compustretch at gmail.com Thu Jul 3 22:32:06 2008 From: compustretch at gmail.com (forest mars) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:32:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] somewhat off-topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > The topic of keeping log data for internet applications, in various > contexts and applications, has often been a topic of conversation. > > <...> > > Google must divulge YouTube log (to Viacom) > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7488009.stm > I made the joke earlier that both sides could have saved a lot of money on lawyers if Viacom had just, you know, checked the most viewed: all time page: http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=&b=0 In all seriousness, it should be obvious on the face of things they are concerned very little with WHAT is being watched, and almost obsessively concerned with WHO is doing the watching. I've said it before, but that's why I don't use an "ISP" for my connectivity, but a private suscription network (PSN) instead. Forest Mars -- "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same. In practice, they're completely different." ------------------------------------------------------------------ The New TLDs are Here! Switch to Name.Space: http://namespace.org/switch Support new domains & keep free media free! Register yours today! https://secure.name-space.com/registry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBRkjTLDbz7LySoccvEQJDcQCguZZj4M4kOVOlOX4CtbgR0rppsdovAjra 3RRXIlkdzuYI0YJz4WyvKlTn =MLhk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- This email is: [ ] private: do not forward [ x ] o.k. to forward [ x ] o.k. to blog [ ] ask first -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skreuzer at exit2shell.com Fri Jul 4 12:58:47 2008 From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:58:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] somewhat off-topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486E56C7.1010107@exit2shell.com> forest mars wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Isaac Levy > wrote: > > Hi All, > > The topic of keeping log data for internet applications, in various > contexts and applications, has often been a topic of conversation. > > > > <...> > > Google must divulge YouTube log (to Viacom) > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7488009.stm > > > > > I made the joke earlier that both sides could have saved a lot of > money on lawyers if Viacom had just, you know, checked the most > viewed: all time page: > > http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp&t=a&c=0&l=&b=0 > > > In all seriousness, it should be obvious on the face of things they > are concerned very little with WHAT is being watched, and almost > obsessively concerned with WHO is doing the watching. > > I've said it before, but that's why I don't use an "ISP" for my > connectivity, but a private suscription network (PSN) instead. > > Forest Mars Some quick searching didn't result in anything.... What exactly is a PSN? From andy.kosela at gmail.com Sat Jul 5 17:35:23 2008 From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:35:23 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Planet FreeBSD down?? Message-ID: <3cc535c80807051435u68c658a5gcb9ec173f0d6025f@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know what happened to Planet FreeBSD http://planet.xbsd.org/ ? It used to be a nice place to read what's going on in the FreeBSD community. -- Andy Kosela ora et labora From andy.kosela at gmail.com Sun Jul 6 11:30:48 2008 From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:30:48 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Planet FreeBSD down?? In-Reply-To: References: <3cc535c80807051435u68c658a5gcb9ec173f0d6025f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cc535c80807060830u3996d3b0te2f9ee2ac0cac6c9@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Vitaliy Gladkevitch wrote: > I believe there was a plan to move Planet FreeBSD to a new aggregation > system for some time now, and it looks like it has finally happened. Florent > Thoumie wrote about it back in January with the updated link > > http://blog.xbsd.org/2008/01/22/new-planet-freebsd-in-testing/ > hmm it seems I missed it, the "new" URL is http://planet.freebsdish.org/ Thanks :) -- Andy Kosela ora et labora From spork at bway.net Tue Jul 8 22:30:39 2008 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability Message-ID: Just in case you haven't seen this elsewhere yet: http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/800113 http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/MIMG-7ECL7M I wonder if that "notification date" for FreeBSD is to be believed? There's currently no updates to the ports. I run 9.3.5 and was able to build the patched version within ports by doing the following: -editing the distinfo file like so: MD5 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 1446984f552b18a0ff7db63971a0cb5a SHA256 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 8bd6b53f5a2c5f0332aaba9a51ef3d7fc55c60f906f0c506 e11b6600ed82a90b SIZE (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 5626167 MD5 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = 3680754939a9af0b1f6bb733a3a8fb3b SHA256 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = cf312c8a4c2cf1c07a473d2ff6db597a0677c5f8a79b 4e7d3f7333663a862a5c SIZE (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = 479 -editing the port Makefile to reflect the new filename: # ISC releases things like 9.3.0rc1, which our versioning doesn't like ISCVERSION= 9.3.5-P1 Built clean on 6.3, running it for about an hour now. Perhaps others can share any info on the ports/pkg systems for other BSDs? Of course anyone who's been running DNSSEC before today is welcome to pipe up with any good tips on getting that beast going for a ton of zones... Charles ___ Charles Sprickman NetEng/SysAdmin Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344 From jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net Wed Jul 9 03:11:53 2008 From: jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net (Jim Brown) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 03:11:53 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080709071153.GA44935@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> * Charles Sprickman [2008-07-08 22:21]: > Just in case you haven't seen this elsewhere yet: > > http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/800113 > http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/MIMG-7ECL7M > I built from source cleanly on both 6.2-RELEASE-p2 (yeah, i know it's old...) Installs and works Ok. Jim B. From dan at langille.org Wed Jul 9 07:26:27 2008 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 07:26:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1255B200-D3E0-4837-AA3B-45E3B9ECD1AD@langille.org> On Jul 8, 2008, at 10:30 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > Just in case you haven't seen this elsewhere yet: > > http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/800113 > http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/MIMG-7ECL7M > > I wonder if that "notification date" for FreeBSD is to be believed? For the benefit of those reading mail offline, the date in the URL is 5 May 2008. Why would you not believe it? You think they're lying? > There's currently no updates to the ports. I run 9.3.5 and was > able to > build the patched version within ports by doing the following: > > -editing the distinfo file like so: > > MD5 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 1446984f552b18a0ff7db63971a0cb5a > SHA256 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = > 8bd6b53f5a2c5f0332aaba9a51ef3d7fc55c60f906f0c506 > e11b6600ed82a90b > SIZE (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 5626167 > MD5 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = 3680754939a9af0b1f6bb733a3a8fb3b > SHA256 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = > cf312c8a4c2cf1c07a473d2ff6db597a0677c5f8a79b > 4e7d3f7333663a862a5c > SIZE (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = 479 > > -editing the port Makefile to reflect the new filename: > > # ISC releases things like 9.3.0rc1, which our versioning doesn't like > ISCVERSION= 9.3.5-P1 > > Built clean on 6.3, running it for about an hour now. Please submit a patch. -- Dan Langille -- http://www.langille.org/ From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Jul 9 16:51:17 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:51:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD on a Soekris 4801 with CF Card Message-ID: <487524C5.9080509@ceetonetechnology.com> I have done this many times for years, but since it's so infrequent, I tend to reinvent the wheel each time it's done. Therefore, I thought I'd post to 'talk' for others' benefit. . . and so that maybe I'll rediscover this post the next time I google about it :) Background: I usually boot a box on a FBSD cd with the CF card in a reader and install there. . . The CF card shows up as a 'da' device, ie, da (4) Minimal install of FreeBSD. Once install is done, I go to the shell (ALT-f4) and make the following changes before the bootstrap box is rebooted: in /etc/rc.conf change the install box's network adapter to the Soekris' sis in /etc/fstab change the 'da' devices to 'ad0'. . . and remove CD drive (s) I'll probably dump in a noatime in there. . . /etc/ssh/sshd_config PermitRootLogin yes as it's needed to do initial configurations /boot/loader.conf add hw.ata.ata_dma="0" to deal with DMA errors of a 2 gig CF card and Soekris bus. Once on box, I also do an: atacontrol mode ad0 pi04 (instead of the default UDMA100) George From bonsaime at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 21:33:00 2008 From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:33:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > Just in case you haven't seen this elsewhere yet: > > http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/800113 > http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/MIMG-7ECL7M > > I wonder if that "notification date" for FreeBSD is to be believed? > > There's currently no updates to the ports. I run 9.3.5 and was able to > build the patched version within ports by doing the following: > > -editing the distinfo file like so: > > MD5 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 1446984f552b18a0ff7db63971a0cb5a > SHA256 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 8bd6b53f5a2c5f0332aaba9a51ef3d7fc55c60f906f0c506 > e11b6600ed82a90b > SIZE (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz) = 5626167 > MD5 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = 3680754939a9af0b1f6bb733a3a8fb3b > SHA256 (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = cf312c8a4c2cf1c07a473d2ff6db597a0677c5f8a79b > 4e7d3f7333663a862a5c > SIZE (bind-9.3.5-P1.tar.gz.asc) = 479 > > -editing the port Makefile to reflect the new filename: > > # ISC releases things like 9.3.0rc1, which our versioning doesn't like > ISCVERSION= 9.3.5-P1 > > Built clean on 6.3, running it for about an hour now. > > Perhaps others can share any info on the ports/pkg systems for other BSDs? > > Of course anyone who's been running DNSSEC before today is welcome to pipe > up with any good tips on getting that beast going for a ton of zones... > > Charles > > ___ > Charles Sprickman > NetEng/SysAdmin > Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net > spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344 > So is OpenBSD forking, or what? Looks like it. -jesse From carton at Ivy.NET Thu Jul 10 11:47:20 2008 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:47:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability In-Reply-To: (Jesse Callaway's message of "Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:33:00 -0400") References: Message-ID: >>>>> "jc" == Jesse Callaway writes: jc> I wonder if that "notification date" for FreeBSD is to be jc> believed? This isn't a real vulnerability. It has a posting-date, not a discovery date, because it's merely awareness-raising. Frankly it's mostly publicity for the posters. The format is deceptive, but the inarguable point is that new attacks based on this vector do not become dramatically more likely after the posting as they do with a normal vulnerability announcement. Follow the links in the vulnerability. The most interesting one is the multiple-outstanding-requests link which is 2002, and is fixed in BIND since 9.2.1, but still mentioned in their advisory with all this hazy FUD about who's affected. Don't let these screaming monkeys make you hysterical. ``thinking that software can protect you from forged DNS packets with the current DNS protocol is like thinking that shorts and a T-shirt will protect you from the winter wind in Chicago.'' -- Daniel J. Bernstein, Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science, University of Illinois at Chicago great. glad to hear it, Bernstein. Then I'll keep using bind. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From okan at demirmen.com Thu Jul 10 12:00:51 2008 From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:00:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080710160051.GG5484@clam.khaoz.org> On Wed 2008.07.09 at 21:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: > So is OpenBSD forking, or what? Looks like it. nope. if you look at the base components which are 3rd party, you'll notice that most of them note "+ patches". From george at ceetonetechnology.com Fri Jul 11 12:22:12 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:22:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] banner Message-ID: <487788B4.1040503@ceetonetechnology.com> Who has the NYCBUG banner? Please hit me offlist. George From bonsaime at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 10:53:23 2008 From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:53:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND vulnerability In-Reply-To: <20080710160051.GG5484@clam.khaoz.org> References: <20080710160051.GG5484@clam.khaoz.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Wed 2008.07.09 at 21:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: >> So is OpenBSD forking, or what? Looks like it. > > nope. > > if you look at the base components which are 3rd party, you'll notice > that most of them note "+ patches". Okay, good stuff. Not that it would have changed anything that I do, but good to know there isn't even MORE work piled up for those guys. From nycbug at cyth.net Fri Jul 11 15:29:23 2008 From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:29:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] banner In-Reply-To: <487788B4.1040503@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <487788B4.1040503@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <7765c0380807111229x53eea23ha62447ac70a72292@mail.gmail.com> Someone stole it? =) -Ray- On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:22 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > Who has the NYCBUG banner? > > Please hit me offlist. > > George > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sun Jul 13 17:33:43 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:33:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] banner In-Reply-To: <7765c0380807111229x53eea23ha62447ac70a72292@mail.gmail.com> References: <487788B4.1040503@ceetonetechnology.com> <7765c0380807111229x53eea23ha62447ac70a72292@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <487A74B7.80809@ceetonetechnology.com> Ray Lai wrote: > Someone stole it? =) > > -Ray- Since you hit the public list, yes Ray, someone stole it, and you're the top suspect. We have your cat, and will gladly exchange for the banner. g From nycbug at cyth.net Sun Jul 13 21:09:56 2008 From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:09:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] banner In-Reply-To: <487A74B7.80809@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <487788B4.1040503@ceetonetechnology.com> <7765c0380807111229x53eea23ha62447ac70a72292@mail.gmail.com> <487A74B7.80809@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <7765c0380807131809r6006768odf75afcb60a5fea6@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 5:33 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > Ray Lai wrote: >> >> Someone stole it? =) >> >> -Ray- > > Since you hit the public list, yes Ray, someone stole it, and you're the top > suspect. > > We have your cat, and will gladly exchange for the banner. The only cat I have is safely tucked in its bin. You have no leverage. -Ray- From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sun Jul 13 22:28:26 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:28:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon site Message-ID: <487AB9CA.6050804@ceetonetechnology.com> FYI, the site has been updated. The presentation proposals are due on July 15, this Tuesday. George From akosela at andykosela.com Tue Jul 15 04:22:12 2008 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:22:12 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] web control panel for FreeBSD Message-ID: <3cc535c80807150122v1167aa2dx505568e058762875@mail.gmail.com> Do you have any recommendations for a nice web control panel for FreeBSD hosting server? Something which integrates nicely with FreeBSD 7 and is similar in features to cpanel, but preferably open source.. Thanks for any suggestions. -- Andy Kosela ora et labora From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Jul 15 13:45:36 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:45:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008 sponsors Message-ID: <487CE240.9010001@ceetonetechnology.com> FYI, as in the past, we strongly encourage everyone to pursue sponsors for the con. Sponsor contributions are critical in getting far away speakers in town, not to mention in keeping the entrance fee as low as possible. Hit me offlist if you have any leads, contacts, etc. George From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Jul 15 15:48:12 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:48:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon flier Message-ID: <487CFEFC.9080207@ceetonetechnology.com> The www site has been updated further. One thing to note is that a PDF of a publicity flier/flyer is available for download and distribution. We strongly encourage everyone, particularly those in NYC and on campuses, to print it out and get it around. Everyone on talk has a role in building this conference, and there's the tool you need :) George From ike at lesmuug.org Wed Jul 16 09:28:25 2008 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:28:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies Message-ID: Hi All, So I had this idea for a 'Hacker Movie Marathon Night' for a friend- and started making a list of, and thought I'd post the list here for comments from people I trust to be technical. Essentially, the list I made below reflects stuff that I feel has *actually* culturally influenced contemporary computing, for better or for worse. I'd love to hear what people here have to add, or comment on- (feel free to tell me why something on the list blows). Rocket- .ike -- So here's my criteria for this list of hacker/cyberpunk movies: + My list leans towards hacker as artist/protagonist + Hacker movies, stuff about computer hackers. - hackers in the cracker sense - hackers in the oldschool UNIX sense + People doing things with the electronic (and biological) extensions of man. + Hard-Science based, stuff that real hacking, computer science, and hard sciences folks jive with. + Conceptually important to hacker culture, philosophically - Cyberpunk, reality questioning, living in ideas + Conceptually important to hacker culture, politically/socially - usually corrupt social systems vs anti-facist idealism + 'Gotten over it' technology approaches (however fantastic), e.g. technology is portrayed as simply an extension of man + Geek factor, usually explores themes of isolation through individualism + The tech on the cinema screen may or may not be metaphorical + I love a true story :) The list Excludes: - excludes pure sci-fi movies dealing with computing - excluding heist or other thriller movies, this is a computer hacking list- (The Heist, Manchurian Candidate) - purely dystopic future films, while related, are out (La Jetee', Metropolis, I Robot). - not sci-fi-ish movies about memory and time either, (Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind, etc...) - Not AI films about science/computers taking over humankihd, though they are DEFINATELY related- - no stuff that just looks styled like cyberpunk stuff- (Liquid Sky, et. al.) - No robot vs. man fear movies - !And point blank: some camp in this list, but no embarrassingly junky films (e.g. Swordfish). -- Francis Ford Coppola's "The Conversation"(1974) http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0071360/ Enemy of the State (1998, essentially a re-make of Coppola's 'The Conversation') http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120660/ Hackers (1995, campy classic) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113243/ The Matrix (1999, THE modern mythos) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/ The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions - both have extremely redeeming qualities worth discussion IMHO, aside form the obvious suck War Games (1983, Matthew Broderick) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/ Sneakers (1992, Robert Redford and totally insane casting) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/ Pi (1998) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0138704/ Serial Experiments: Lain (1998, Japanese TV series, first episode is awesome) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0500092/ eXistenZ (1999) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120907/ Tron (1982) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084827/ Antitrust (2001, cheezy) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218817/ Office Space (1999) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/ Takedown (2000, Kevin Mitnick capture story) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159784/ I want to see this first for accuracy reasons Ghost In The Shell (1996, Animae, classic but a bit si-fi genre) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113568/ X-Files: "Kill Switch" (1998, Episode 11, Season 5) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751150/ Weird Science (1985, every hacker/nerd kid's dream) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090305/ Stuff I haven't watched but want to see first: The Thirteenth Floor (1999) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139809/ The Score (2001, Ed Norton and Robert DeNero) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0227445/ Topkapi (1964) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058672/ Johnny Mnemonic (1995) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113481/ Code 46 (2007) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0345061/ Strange Days (1995) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114558/ Electric Dragon 80.000 V (2001, Star from Ichi The Killer, need I say more) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276935/ Nirvana (1997, supposed to be excellent) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119794/ Sixteen Tongues (1999, um I dunno... well... it explains a lot about hacker culture, but...) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190008/ I.K.U. (2000, Android Cyberspace Rave Orgies- nearly porn, definately disturbing) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0255233/ Cyborg 2087 (1966) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060272/ The Thirteenth Floor (1999 supposed to be awesome) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139809/ Casshern (2004, Japanese, supposed to be visually stunning- heavy) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405821/ Cypher (2002, story is like Hitchcock's North by Northwest) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284978/ Final Cut (2004, Excellent story, bad movie) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364343/ Fragile Machine (2005, Supposed to be excellent and trippy) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455951/ Magdalena?s Brain (2006, supposed to be good) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780561/ One Point O (2004, Supposed to be insanely good- hard to find in US) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317042/ Videodrome (1983, kindof not really hacker flick, but worth mention) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086541/ -- Definately not worth watching, but technically meet list criteria, waste of time crapola: Cyberpunk (1990 Documentary about William Gibson, sucked- but worth mention since he's awesome) http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/movie/decade/1990-1999/cyberpunk-documentary/ Swordfish (should be fucking burned) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0244244/ Recent Die Hard 4 (Crap, ideological hollywood reversal of hacker ethics) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337978/ The Net http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113957/plotsummary Webmaster (1998 junk) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136535/ Avatar (2004) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0270841/ From dave at donnerjack.com Wed Jul 16 11:27:10 2008 From: dave at donnerjack.com (David Lawson) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 11:27:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hackers (1995, campy classic) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113243/ Excellent choice! > Ghost In The Shell (1996, Animae, classic but a bit si-fi genre) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113568/ GitS: Innocence, the second movie, also has a lot of what you're talking about it in it, as does the first Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex series, the second not so much, but it's a constant theme in the series. > The Thirteenth Floor (1999) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139809/ This is supposed to be excellent from what I've heard. > The Score (2001, Ed Norton and Robert DeNero) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0227445/ > > Topkapi (1964) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058672/ > > Johnny Mnemonic (1995) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113481/ This is complete shit, IMHO. > Code 46 (2007) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0345061/ > > Strange Days (1995) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114558/ Pretty good, from what I remember, but I haven't seen it in a long time. > Electric Dragon 80.000 V (2001, Star from Ichi The Killer, need I > say more) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276935/ Oh hell yeah. Need to track that down, I hadn't heard of it. > Casshern (2004, Japanese, supposed to be visually stunning- heavy) > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0405821/ This is....weird. Honestly. I'm not sure it fits your criteria. I'm frankly not at all sure what it's actually about. Or even most of what's going on. I keep meaning to watch it again, but yeah. It is, absolutely, gorgeous, and has some beautifully directed action in it, but it is _really_ weird. It's also very long, from what I remember. I've got a Hong Kong bootleg from when it came out in Japan, I don't know if it's out officially in the US, if it isn't I can burn you a copy. > Cyberpunk (1990 Documentary about William Gibson, sucked- but worth > mention since he's awesome) > http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/movie/decade/1990-1999/cyberpunk-documentary/ There was another documentary made with him called No Maps for These Territories, I think. I don't know anything about it offhand, I just ran across it a couple years ago and used to have a copy of it. Might be worth looking into. Man, my Netflix queue is going to be terrifying now. Awesome idea though Ike. --Dave From ike at lesmuug.org Wed Jul 16 12:26:03 2008 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:26:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A074627-5120-48B0-BD69-EFC81F0EF638@lesmuug.org> On Jul 16, 2008, at 11:27 AM, David Lawson wrote: >> > Man, my Netflix queue is going to be terrifying now. Heh- also, I found this when googling a composite of the movies I listed, great list- but not exactly my criteria listed (loads more scifi and fantasy stuff- this guy has some freaky stuff listed in there): http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/cyberpunk-movies-by-decade/ Rocket- .ike From stucchi at briantel.com Wed Jul 16 13:01:30 2008 From: stucchi at briantel.com (Massimiliano Stucchi) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:01:30 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0218DA4E-F2B2-4DEA-889F-D061DE35DD8A@briantel.com> On 16/lug/08, at 15:28, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > So I had this idea for a 'Hacker Movie Marathon Night' for a friend- > and started making a list of, and thought I'd post the list here for > comments from people I trust to be technical. > > Essentially, the list I made below reflects stuff that I feel has > *actually* culturally influenced contemporary computing, for better or > for worse. > > I'd love to hear what people here have to add, or comment on- (feel > free to tell me why something on the list blows). I would add "Pirates of Silicon valley" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/ ). I like it, as it shows part of the history of both Microsoft and Apple, and the differences between the two. Hope this helps Ciao ! -- Massimiliano Stucchi, CTO & Director of Operations BrianTel SRL stucchi at briantel.com Tel (+39) 039 8943198 | Fax (+39) 02 44417204 Mobile (+39) 348 9645675 I-20040, Carnate (Milano), via Carducci 9 MS16801-RIPE From george at galis.org Wed Jul 16 17:26:22 2008 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:26:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080716212622.GC20970@sadie.duo> On Wed 16 Jul 2008 at 09:28:25 AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: >So here's my criteria for this list of hacker/cyberpunk movies: ... maybe not in criteria but definately deserves honarable mention: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/ 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) /g -- George Georgalis, information system scientist < From bcully at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 18:11:05 2008 From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:11:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: <20080716212622.GC20970@sadie.duo> References: <20080716212622.GC20970@sadie.duo> Message-ID: <0DD15370-1DF7-48A7-A461-F2561E22250D@gmail.com> Where the hell is "Collosus: The Forbin Project?" I swear, kids these days... -bjc On Jul 16, 2008, at 17:26, George Georgalis wrote: > On Wed 16 Jul 2008 at 09:28:25 AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: >> So here's my criteria for this list of hacker/cyberpunk movies: > ... > > maybe not in criteria but definately deserves honarable mention: > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/ 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) > > /g > > -- > George Georgalis, information system scientist < > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From bonsaime at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 16:24:58 2008 From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:24:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon flier In-Reply-To: <487CFEFC.9080207@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <487CFEFC.9080207@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 3:48 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > The www site has been updated further. > > One thing to note is that a PDF of a publicity flier/flyer is available > for download and distribution. > > We strongly encourage everyone, particularly those in NYC and on > campuses, to print it out and get it around. > > Everyone on talk has a role in building this conference, and there's the > tool you need :) > > George The flyer for the NYCBSDCon 2008 can be downloaded here http://www.nycbsdcon.org/2008/flyer.pdf From quigongene at gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:25:14 2008 From: quigongene at gmail.com (gene cronk) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:25:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: <0DD15370-1DF7-48A7-A461-F2561E22250D@gmail.com> References: <20080716212622.GC20970@sadie.duo> <0DD15370-1DF7-48A7-A461-F2561E22250D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bb72ca70807161725m4237593bq4cd95593c3627d58@mail.gmail.com> What about Final Fantasy - The Spirits Within? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy:_The_Spirits_Within On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Brian Cully wrote: > Where the hell is "Collosus: The Forbin Project?" > > I swear, kids these days... > > -bjc > > On Jul 16, 2008, at 17:26, George Georgalis wrote: > > > On Wed 16 Jul 2008 at 09:28:25 AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> So here's my criteria for this list of hacker/cyberpunk movies: > > ... > > > > maybe not in criteria but definately deserves honarable mention: > > > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/ 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) > > > > /g > > > > -- > > George Georgalis, information system scientist < > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk at lists.nycbug.org > > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tekronis at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 01:39:33 2008 From: tekronis at gmail.com (H. G.) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:39:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] way off topic - hacker movies In-Reply-To: <0DD15370-1DF7-48A7-A461-F2561E22250D@gmail.com> References: <20080716212622.GC20970@sadie.duo> <0DD15370-1DF7-48A7-A461-F2561E22250D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60131f920807162239i43ce90e2se99ec63040a7bf83@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Cully. "Collosus" is probably the most relevant movie here, definitely should be added to your list. On 7/16/08, Brian Cully wrote: > > Where the hell is "Collosus: The Forbin Project?" > > I swear, kids these days... > > -bjc > > > On Jul 16, 2008, at 17:26, George Georgalis wrote: > > > On Wed 16 Jul 2008 at 09:28:25 AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> So here's my criteria for this list of hacker/cyberpunk movies: > > ... > > > > maybe not in criteria but definately deserves honarable mention: > > > > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/ 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) > > > > /g > > > > -- > > George Georgalis, information system scientist < > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk at lists.nycbug.org > > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at galis.org Thu Jul 17 12:14:41 2008 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:14:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] perl error... Message-ID: <20080717161441.GA2128@sadie.duo> Okay perl idiot here... use: not found /usr/local/script/contrib/maildirsync.pl: 20: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (nb: "use: not found:") humm, well this is line 19-21 use File::Basename; use File::Copy qw(copy move); use File::Path qw(mkpath); I do have a nice /usr/pkg/lib/perl5/5.8.0/File/Copy.pm installed... what could be the problem? // George -- George Georgalis, information system scientist < From alex at pilosoft.com Thu Jul 17 12:18:41 2008 From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] perl error... In-Reply-To: <20080717161441.GA2128@sadie.duo> Message-ID: #!/usr/bin/perl -alex On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, George Georgalis wrote: > Okay perl idiot here... > > use: not found > /usr/local/script/contrib/maildirsync.pl: 20: Syntax error: "(" unexpected > > (nb: "use: not found:") humm, well this is line 19-21 > > use File::Basename; > use File::Copy qw(copy move); > use File::Path qw(mkpath); > > I do have a nice /usr/pkg/lib/perl5/5.8.0/File/Copy.pm installed... > > what could be the problem? > > // George > > > > From george at galis.org Thu Jul 17 13:39:04 2008 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:39:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] perl error... In-Reply-To: References: <20080717161441.GA2128@sadie.duo> Message-ID: <20080717173904.GI2128@sadie.duo> yep got it, syntax error with my which perl command. // George On Thu 17 Jul 2008 at 12:18:41 PM -0400, Alex Pilosov wrote: >#!/usr/bin/perl > >-alex > >On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, George Georgalis wrote: > >> Okay perl idiot here... >> >> use: not found >> /usr/local/script/contrib/maildirsync.pl: 20: Syntax error: "(" unexpected >> >> (nb: "use: not found:") humm, well this is line 19-21 >> >> use File::Basename; >> use File::Copy qw(copy move); >> use File::Path qw(mkpath); >> >> I do have a nice /usr/pkg/lib/perl5/5.8.0/File/Copy.pm installed... >> >> what could be the problem? >> >> // George >> >> >> >> > -- George Georgalis, information system scientist < From george at ceetonetechnology.com Thu Jul 17 22:04:41 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:04:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE Message-ID: <487FFA39.2090801@ceetonetechnology.com> If anyone is planning to go to HOPE, it would be great if people downloaded the PDF for the con from www.nycbsdcon.org and got some copies around. Also, stick around #nycbug on freenode if people want to connect there. George From alex at pilosoft.com Fri Jul 18 00:17:54 2008 From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE In-Reply-To: <487FFA39.2090801@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, George Rosamond wrote: > If anyone is planning to go to HOPE, it would be great if people > downloaded the PDF for the con from www.nycbsdcon.org and got some > copies around. > > Also, stick around #nycbug on freenode if people want to connect there. My friend is throwing an afterparty at HHH (www.hackerhalfwayhouse.org) on Saturday starting 9pm. Y'all are hereby invited. There's a facebook event with more details - but you have to friend me (Alex Pilosov) so I can give you invite. -alex From huyslogic at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 00:55:08 2008 From: huyslogic at gmail.com (Huy Ton That) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:55:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE In-Reply-To: References: <487FFA39.2090801@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <1cac28080807172155p4eef4677j7807a2ec8a5ab58f@mail.gmail.com> Sounds cool, I'll be going to HOPE -- I'll try to swing by. -huy On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:17 AM, Alex Pilosov wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, George Rosamond wrote: > > > If anyone is planning to go to HOPE, it would be great if people > > downloaded the PDF for the con from www.nycbsdcon.org and got some > > copies around. > > > > Also, stick around #nycbug on freenode if people want to connect there. > My friend is throwing an afterparty at HHH (www.hackerhalfwayhouse.org) > on Saturday starting 9pm. Y'all are hereby invited. > > There's a facebook event with more details - but you have to friend me > (Alex Pilosov) so I can give you invite. > > -alex > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Fri Jul 18 13:36:26 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:36:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Next meeting Message-ID: <4880D49A.1090905@ceetonetechnology.com> FYI. . . it's been posted. . . in case anyone thought we weren't having a meeting. http://www.nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Home;SUBM=10160 George From lists at vitaliy.info Fri Jul 18 19:37:51 2008 From: lists at vitaliy.info (Vitaliy Gladkevitch) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:37:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBUG Audio Message-ID: <14EB694A-9189-4751-A863-B61E4FFB3A89@vitaliy.info> Hello, As somebody who spends a great deal of time listening to podcasts (RSS audio feeds) I would like to suggest higher-quality recording of the meets. The biggest problem right now is that it is hard to hear the main speaker because of all the background noise, and it is impossible to hear the questions that people are asking. Can we provide the speaker with a microphone that clips on to a collar of a shirt? And maybe something to pass around for the people to use to ask questions? The microphones should not just be connected to a loud speaker but directly into the recording laptop to have a clear stream with no background noise. There is tons of great information that is being shared at NYCBUG and it would really help out the people who are unable to attend. The RSS feed can be added to something like iTunes Podcast Directory and give NYCBUG some online exposure. If there are people interested I would not mind throwing a couple of bucks towards a purchase. We can also talk bandwidth if that is an issue. - Vitaliy From swygue at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 10:32:12 2008 From: swygue at gmail.com (Rodrique Heron) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:32:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CARP Question Message-ID: <4880A96C.3000700@gmail.com> I'm using CARP to cluster a Apache Reverse Proxy, just two nodes right now. I want to add other node, the hardware is newer than the existing setup and I would like to take advantage of the 64bit hardware. Is there a problem mixing 64bit and 32bit with CARP ? Also, can PFsync work with 3 or more nodes. I am running FreeBSD 7, thanks. From skreuzer at exit2shell.com Tue Jul 22 00:18:09 2008 From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:18:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DragonFly BSD 2.0 Released Message-ID: <20080722041809.GA15186@slurry.exit2shell.com> >From KernelTrap: "Hurrah! 2.0 has been released!" said Matthew Dillon, announcing the eighth major release of DragonFly BSD. This release is the first to include HAMMER, a new clustering filesystem that already boasts an impressive list of features, including: "crash recovery on-mount, no fsck; fine-grained snapshots, snapshot management, snapshot-support for filesystem-wide data integrity checks; historically accessible by default; mirroring: queueless incremental mirroring, master to multi-slave; undo and rollback; reblocking; multi-volume, maximum storage capacity of 1-Exabyte." Other highlighted changes in this release include, "native fairq-queue implementation using ALTQ, for PF", and "native connection state recovery to PF, so router reboots do not drop active TCP connections." http://kerneltrap.org/DragonFlyBSD/2.0_HAMMER_Filesystem -- Steven Kreuzer http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer From akosela at andykosela.com Tue Jul 22 03:40:20 2008 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:40:20 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DragonFly BSD 2.0 Released In-Reply-To: <20080722041809.GA15186@slurry.exit2shell.com> References: <20080722041809.GA15186@slurry.exit2shell.com> Message-ID: <3cc535c80807220040ydef11few153135611bdf5ddd@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 6:18 AM, Steven Kreuzer wrote: > >From KernelTrap: > > "Hurrah! 2.0 has been released!" said Matthew Dillon, announcing the eighth > major release of DragonFly BSD. This release is the first to include HAMMER, a > new clustering filesystem that already boasts an impressive list of features, > including: "crash recovery on-mount, no fsck; fine-grained snapshots, snapshot > management, snapshot-support for filesystem-wide data integrity checks; > historically accessible by default; mirroring: queueless incremental mirroring, > master to multi-slave; undo and rollback; reblocking; multi-volume, maximum > storage capacity of 1-Exabyte." Other highlighted changes in this release > include, "native fairq-queue implementation using ALTQ, for PF", and "native > connection state recovery to PF, so router reboots do not drop active TCP > connections." > > http://kerneltrap.org/DragonFlyBSD/2.0_HAMMER_Filesystem > Yes, HAMMER looks promising. I wonder how hard it would be to port it to FreeBSD. All those modern filesystem projects like ZFS, HAMMER, and Oracle's BTRFS for Linux are very interesting. -- Andy Kosela ora et labora From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Jul 23 11:06:06 2008 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:06:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Live Video Streaming Available for USENIX Security '08] Message-ID: <488748DE.9030504@ceetonetechnology.com> From USENIX. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Live Video Streaming Available for USENIX Security '08 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:25:08 -0700 The 17th USENIX Security Symposium is just a week away. If you can't make it to San Jose, take advantage of the new live video streaming opportunity. USENIX is partnering with Linux Pro Magazine to offer live video streaming of two training classes and all of the invited talks. Training classes include: * Monday: Botnets: Understanding and Defense Bruce Potter, The Shmoo Group http://www.usenix.org/events/sec08/training/tutonefile.html#m1 * Tuesday: Network Flow Analysis Bruce Potter, The Shmoo Group http://www.usenix.org/events/sec08/training/tutonefile.html#t1 Invited talks include: * Keynote Address by Debra Bowen, California Secretary of State (FREE) * "Hackernomics," by Hugh Thompson, People Security * "Political DDoS: Estonia and Beyond," by Jose Nazario, Senior Security Engineer, Arbor Networks * "The Ghost in the Browser and Other Frightening Stories about Web Malware," by Niels Provos, Google, Inc. The full list of invited talks is available at http://www.usenix.org/events/sec08/tech/ We are pleased to offer NYCBUG a discount code for the live streaming. Please use the code NYB-usec08 when registering. Register for the live streaming at http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/usenix_sec08 Find out more about the conference at http://www.usenix.org/sec08/ls From ike at lesmuug.org Fri Jul 25 23:59:55 2008 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:59:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Fiber-to-Home Ghost Message-ID: <4B680AF1-9A4A-4CDB-B0AE-1878D5CD5928@lesmuug.org> Hi All, A somewhat newsworthy item of local relevance, actual FIOS news: Verizon is holding a press conference Monday, at Grand Central Terminal, 11am- to announce their rollout plan for FIOS in NYC. http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS228142+24-Jul-2008+PRN20080724 I'm breaking the unspoken rules regarding 'no vendor post junk here', considering Verizon's city-run monopoly on running our wires impacts all *our* lives tremendously. This seems to be the ETA, outlining when we'll be lit up around town and actually GET the fiber service, respectively. Personally, my expectations are quite low. -- Here's a FIOS Wikipedia article, with pics and explinations of the gear involved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_FiOS -- For those who aren't watching the details of all the news, here's a quick "ike says it's relevant" breakdown of the NYC Fiber-to-home saga- some items old, some very recent: - 1981(ish?), Bellcore (Bell Labs) designs the fiber-to-home plan for NYC proper. To every home, when there was no public internet like we know now. Fiber tech, deployment plan, the whole caboodle. They spent tons of money in the process trying to figure out how to do things like reclaim unused copper lines without affecting existing service, and other interesting economically unfeasible problems. The fiber plan even got Marketing campaigns, (to what extent, I don't know), and eventually put on the shelf. - 1983, Verizon founded under the name 'Bell Atlantic Corporation', spawn of AT&T Corporation as one of seven Baby Bells that were formed due to the anti-trust judgement against them. (I guess they got the fiber plans). - Insert the rest of the 80's, UNIX wars, and in 1988 commercial ISP's were born, UUNET and BITNET, Compuserve born shortly thereafter, etc... Tons of other stuff happened, AT&T Bell Telephone Broken Up, Bell labs goes down the path to become Lucent. - The 90's happen, the internet 'happens', etc... My point, a critical mass of 'regular folk' in America connect to the internet and do stuff. They continue, and do more stuff using the internet... Bandwidth, we can always use more. - 3 years ago, we start seeing FIOS advertisements, but no real FIOS in NYC. - 2 years ago, homes and businesses in the outer edges of the buroughs and Long Island get fios connectivity lit up. Verizon hires every bloody cable-laying contractor they can from 5 surrounding states to continue running more fiber across NYC. (I sat and chatted with guys in the splicing trucks at night last summer, when they were running trunks all around my Williamsburg Brooklyn neighborhood). I drooled, saw more addvertising, but no service in most of NYC yet. FIOS offerings cropped up in other markets, TX, Northeastern states, etc... (places where it's simply easier to run the cables). - About 1 year ago, to make Wall St. get excited, Verizon made a bit splash out of offering service in the lower manhattan area around Water St., as well as providing service to some high-profile newly constructed buildings in Brooklyn. *cough* someone on this list has experience with this, and some of the hackery that went into this pre-beta-beta deployment... (fiber over copper comedy) Still no city-wide service offering attempt, still laying more trunk lines. - 6 months ago, verizon starts a tough legal battle towards their FIOS- TV product, and goes head to head with the Time-Warner/RCN monopolies, which have carved up NYC cable TV service. - 4 months ago, Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village get lit up. I sit at ess-a-bagel staring across the street, crying in my bagel. - Last Week, Verizon gets the sign-off in Albany to become a competitive Cable TV offering in NYC. Additionally, their contract states that every NYC Address must be capable of receiving Fiber-to- home service by 2014. (Wow that makes me sad, and confused, as Verizon FIOS advertisements are all over my Brooklyn neighborhood). - This Week, Verizon pumps out a ton of press releases after they finished the legal paperwork for their competitive offering, wall st. just nods- (it's got a "hangover"). - 2 days from now, brings me to the top of this email, Verizon is doing a press release to explain their rollout plan for NYC. So, the saga, (but not perhaps this email), will be continued... (and even as it does, we still may never seem to see the fiber). Rocket- .ike From spork at bway.net Sat Jul 26 00:58:01 2008 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Fiber-to-Home Ghost In-Reply-To: <4B680AF1-9A4A-4CDB-B0AE-1878D5CD5928@lesmuug.org> References: <4B680AF1-9A4A-4CDB-B0AE-1878D5CD5928@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Isaac Levy wrote: > - 1983, Verizon founded under the name 'Bell Atlantic Corporation', > spawn of AT&T Corporation as one of seven Baby Bells that were formed > due to the anti-trust judgement against them. (I guess they got the > fiber plans). Which later gobbled up that NYC monster NYNEX... You can't leave that gem out of the equation. If you think VZ is bad, when they merged, Bell Atlantic was the GOOD guy (in relative terms) as far as technical competence and service quality. There are still some from the early ISP days that can go into shock if you mention "NYNEX" and "ISDN" in the same sentence. ... > So, the saga, (but not perhaps this email), will be continued... (and > even as it does, we still may never seem to see the fiber). I think you'll see it. Over a year ago I saw some of the shittiest parts of Newark, NJ being wired up. When I lived in Montclair, I saw their cute little ghetto where quasi gang-bangers bump elbows with the limousine liberals get wired up first. And like in Newark, the take rate is obvious from looking at the poles. My brief thoughts on this are this: -Other than the backup power situation, the whole thing is genius and someone at VZ with more of a data network background beat the bejeezus out of some cranky old bellhead who likely wanted to do some bizarre copper/fiber hybrid like T's clusterf*ck. It is a really well-engineered system and is very forward thinking for an ILEC. -I do believe they've seen the light (ha ha) and will eventually push this into every territory they've got that is moderately dense. They will eventually get the MDU thing straight, and NYC will see many beta-quality rollouts until they figure out what works in older and large buildings. -I think the dark side of all this is that after promising FTTH for so long (ask Pennsylvania how much they gave away in tax revenue years ago for 45Mb/s symmetric service to the home that never showed up) they have finally figured out that the tool to turn every state PUC into their own sniveling, beat-down bitch is to roll out FIOS. It's their ticket to deregulation. Note how fast most statewide CATV franchises were rolled out. Note how the rate hikes where FIOS is available keep in wonderful duopoly lockstep with cable. But the real prize, the cherry on top is that this is the ticket to just having two pipes to our homes - your cable company or VZ. No unbundling of the last mile to CLECs is required, no wholesale access to the networks for ISPs wanting to provide whatever VZ won't be it IPv6 before VZ figures that out, access without port blocking, affordable "business" connections for the SOHO market, basically you'll get VZ or your cableco and you'll like it. Say goodbye to your friendly local ISP offering DSL via CLECs or VZ, that train is pulling out of the station and some guy's leg is hanging out the door. My bread and butter since '96 has been ISP work. I have zero interest in doing the same thing at some mega-ISP, so that's my personal rant on all this. I think that the state PUCs totally screwed up by not requiring 3rd party wholesale access to this stuff - even if only the internet portion. Those dreams of picking your own provider, getting cool IPTV stuff and VOIP from that provider - *poof*. This FTTH connection will not be a marketplace for content, it will eventually be a crappy, ad-supported walled garden. And if you don't like it, you can get the same from your one other choice, your cable company. Charles > Rocket- > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From carton at Ivy.NET Sat Jul 26 14:53:43 2008 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:53:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Fiber-to-Home Ghost In-Reply-To: (Charles Sprickman's message of "Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:58:01 -0400 (EDT)") References: <4B680AF1-9A4A-4CDB-B0AE-1878D5CD5928@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "cs" == Charles Sprickman writes: cs> the tool to turn every state PUC into their own sniveling, cs> beat-down bitch is to roll out FIOS. It's their ticket to cs> deregulation. yeah. I just don't know what to say. cs> totally screwed up by not requiring 3rd party wholesale access cs> to this stuff - even if only the internet portion. Those cs> dreams of picking your own provider, getting cool IPTV stuff cs> and VOIP from that provider - *poof*. some clueful lobbyists would be awesome. I would like some really onerous net neutrality legislation, like enough to piss off most of my friends. If the duopoly Internet access they give you were truly neutral, then you could get IPTV and VoIP from someone not-Verizon without discussing or choosing anything. but QoS and multicast standards don't seem to have anything workable for crossing AS boundaries that Verizon could be forced to use. The closest thing would be more like the DSL-ish scheme you ask for, though maybe with MPLS this time. As a minimum, they should let their competing ISP mark packets with two or three colors that get enforced on all output queues including the one right before the customer downlink. but it'll still be difficult because both FiOS and cable have a broadcast upstream, so their upstream QoS schemes with which they can provide high-quality phone service are AIUI more like celfone TDMA, proprietary and not fitting the DiffServ model. The interweb you get from comcast, from what I've heard, is already so far from neutral, the actual non-neutralness of it is a closely-guarded corporate secret. cs> My bread and butter since '96 has been ISP work. hosting ISP's aren't going anywhere. But running 20Mbit/s upstream to infected Windows hosts, combined with a deep divide between hosting ISP's and leeching ISP's, may lead to the death of the Innurnet through DDoS. Maybe we'll wake up to find that VZHost is oddly somehow the only web host able to filter and survive DDoS. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ike at lesmuug.org Sat Jul 26 15:19:02 2008 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:19:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Fiber-to-Home Ghost In-Reply-To: References: <4B680AF1-9A4A-4CDB-B0AE-1878D5CD5928@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: Wow Charles, On Jul 26, 2008, at 12:58 AM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> - 1983, Verizon founded under the name 'Bell Atlantic Corporation', >> spawn of AT&T Corporation as one of seven Baby Bells that were formed >> due to the anti-trust judgement against them. (I guess they got the >> fiber plans). > > Which later gobbled up that NYC monster NYNEX... You can't leave > that gem out of the equation. If you think VZ is bad, when they > merged, Bell Atlantic was the GOOD guy (in relative terms) as far as > technical competence and service quality. There are still some from > the early ISP days that can go into shock if you mention "NYNEX" and > "ISDN" in the same sentence. > > ... > >> So, the saga, (but not perhaps this email), will be continued... >> (and >> even as it does, we still may never seem to see the fiber). > > I think you'll see it. Over a year ago I saw some of the shittiest > parts of Newark, NJ being wired up. When I lived in Montclair, I > saw their cute little ghetto where quasi gang-bangers bump elbows > with the limousine liberals get wired up first. And like in Newark, > the take rate is obvious from looking at the poles. > > My brief thoughts on this are this: > > -Other than the backup power situation, What is the 'backup power situation'? Curious... > the whole thing is genius and someone at VZ with more of a data > network background beat the bejeezus out of some cranky old bellhead > who likely wanted to do some bizarre copper/fiber hybrid like T's > clusterf*ck. It is a really well-engineered system and is very > forward thinking for an ILEC. > > -I do believe they've seen the light (ha ha) and will eventually > push this into every territory they've got that is moderately > dense. They will eventually get the MDU thing straight, and NYC > will see many beta-quality rollouts until they figure out what works > in older and large buildings. > > -I think the dark side of all this is that after promising FTTH for > so long (ask Pennsylvania how much they gave away in tax revenue > years ago for 45Mb/s symmetric service to the home that never showed > up) they have finally figured out that the tool to turn every state > PUC into their own sniveling, beat-down bitch is to roll out FIOS. > It's their ticket to deregulation. Note how fast most statewide > CATV franchises were rolled out. Note how the rate hikes where FIOS > is available keep in wonderful duopoly lockstep with cable. But the > real prize, the cherry on top is that this is the ticket to just > having two pipes to our homes - your cable company or VZ. No > unbundling of the last mile to CLECs is required, no wholesale > access to the networks for ISPs wanting to provide whatever VZ won't > be it IPv6 before VZ figures that out, access without port blocking, > affordable "business" connections for the SOHO market, basically > you'll get VZ or your cableco and you'll like it. Say goodbye to > your friendly local ISP offering DSL via CLECs or VZ, that train is > pulling out of the station and some guy's leg is hanging out the door. > > > My bread and butter since '96 has been ISP work. I have zero > interest in doing the same thing at some mega-ISP, so that's my > personal rant on all this. This is indeed very important. Not just for you Charles, (I mean, everyone here likes you), but even bigger picture... WTF will happen to the local ISP's?! This scenario makes me feel very uneasy. They are carrying a great deal of the last-mile load right now, (including the surprisingly reliable DSL lines these emails are carried across). Based on FIOS rollout timing realities, local CLECs will do so for some time to come (in a diminishing market of DSL). Could BLECs be the new independent ISP business? I don't know... (but I sure have seen some terrible cesspools of BLEC deployments in high-end Manhattan condos...) -- To everyone, an open question: We all know the churn of technology cycles, but what will guys like Charles do? Or Alex? Or anyone else here who runs an ISP at some capacity? I'm not just speaking on some idea of compassion, (though it is in my sentiment); I'm seriously speaking to a displacement of all the talented people who run our networks- as everyone rushes back to the monopoly of FIOS FTTH in NYC. What happens to quality when Verizon scales FIOS all alone? Do they have the experienced staf, and ability to scale? Money and numbers of people do sqat once something starts growing- it takes experienced, creative, dedicated people in the right places to make things work. I can't provide ideas for answers to this today, but now I'm really thinking about it... > I think that the state PUCs totally screwed up by not requiring 3rd > party wholesale access to this stuff - even if only the internet > portion. Those dreams of picking your own provider, getting cool > IPTV stuff and VOIP from that provider - *poof*. This FTTH > connection will not be a marketplace for content, it will eventually > be a crappy, ad-supported walled garden. And if you don't like it, > you can get the same from your one other choice, your cable company. > > Charles Charles, as usual, you've given me more to chew on (and look up) than I could have imagined. Thanks for the post! Rocket- .ike From carton at Ivy.NET Sat Jul 26 19:38:36 2008 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:38:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Fiber-to-Home Ghost In-Reply-To: (Isaac Levy's message of "Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:19:02 -0400") References: <4B680AF1-9A4A-4CDB-B0AE-1878D5CD5928@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: >>>>> "il" == Isaac Levy writes: il> WTF will happen to the local ISP's?! [...] They are carrying il> a great deal of the last-mile load right now, everyone I know who's not a geek has either verizon or cable. il> What happens to quality when Verizon scales FIOS all alone? il> Do they have the experienced staf, and ability to scale? but they're just moving people from DSL to FiOS---they've already scaled to every household in their territory. since they have no competition they can do this on whatever schedule they choose. As far as actual size they're just playing tug-of-war with cable companies---two buckets of shit connected by a siphon. I don't see scaling problems. I just think an uncompetitive internet will be less neutral. they will treat their customers as an asset to be sold to hosters. You'll find that you need to buy ``transit'' from Level3 if you want average web users to consider your site ``fast''. Once they have a critical mass of shit in their bucket, they can start blackmailing hosting ISP's with the shitty connectivity they give the people in the bucket. It will actually be a good thing when Verizon finishes taking over: they can't revoke service to an area, so they won't be able to quid-pro-quo with regulators any more. I wonder how much of our future NYC sold them to make us last in line at the FiOS slop trough? It has to be less than Pennsylvania sold, so thank god for that. anyway the Future probably won't be that bad since it's basically already happened. For now you can always host things in Germany if the domestic deals get too shitty. Also speakeasy is already using MPLS for their ``private WAN'' service. Remember MPLS? remember all these startups making MPLS switches and MPLS ``edge routers'' and talking about ``metro ethernet'' and then going out of business because no one had time to learn how to use the weird stuff before their investment needed a return? Maybe there will be some interesting new ISP's coming out of nowhere within the city limits, now that old old standards are actually starting to get used. It's not an old standard, but an ISP selling CEE-capable ethernet jacks in a growing pool of large buildings would be kind of interesting. http://www.ieee802.org/1/pages/802.1au.html ^^^ anyone have a password for that? ``The .1au work is fundamental, however. Once that group picks an approach to congestion management, the other pieces "will fall like dominos," [Renato] Recio said.'' in short they are trying to make lossless Ethernet. the ``PAUSE'' frames already built into gigabit ethernet are useless for this, and will not be used in CEE. PAUSE are basically not used at all, except by crappy SOHO switches, where they do nothing but cause problems. Managed switches only generate PAUSE frames when running short on INput (PRE-switched) buffers, which basically doesn't happen ever. so 802.1au are trying to come up with something that functions like the buffer credit mechanism in fibre channel and infiniband, and achieves losslessness, but hopefully is a little more chaotic, cheaper, and optimal. This will require new ASIC's. Once 802.1au finishes and these ASIC's are taped out, it probably doesn't matter whether it's iSCSI/TCP, iSER/iWARP/TCP, iSER/SCTP, or FCoE. By then even RealTek will be selling RDMA-capable NICs, so it's just a matter of software licenses. so, I'm saying, a new kind of ISP could sell multi-gigabit connections that work only within metro areas among customers of that ISP. The gigabit port(s) they hand you might come with with like 100mbit/s of actual Internet transit, and the rest is only for reaching their other customers, and is lossless. This is a way to differentiate oneself from other ISP's under hypothetical extremely onerous net neutrality laws: ``no no, we're still neutral, because we're not selling Internet access. The Innurnet is L3 and has packet loss. we're selling something else, a sort of WAN service, at L2 and with no-packet-loss extensions.'' A metro ISP like that with relevant coverage area could create a new market for outsourced storage, or sunray clusters, or some other weird thing. If you want a T1 they can sell you that, too, but it'll be coming out of an IAD2431. :) Big companies basically run the same high-performance WAN multiple times in parallel creating their own little metro fiefdoms, and this could be done for half the cost. Once they sign up, you've got them by the balls. They can never leave. Since they didn't build their network themselves---or since there was a gap of a few years when no one who knew how to build the network worked for them any more---anyone who knows how to replace what they buy from you will already be working for you. THAT is the real rebirth of the old telco business model. :) Maybe ConEd could do it, or some large insurance company or bank who is already doing cost-recovery billing internally could erect one of these ``chinese paper walls,'' or spin off their WAN department entirely, and start quietly selling service to their competitors, sneaking into a few more buildings each year. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: