From mspitzer at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 13:56:14 2008
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:56:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] on a 'lighter note' about cloud computing
In-Reply-To: <6c9183447d14f03f7282d7ed75d6c623@nomadlogic.org>
References: <48E1A523.1010701@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<6c9183447d14f03f7282d7ed75d6c623@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30810011056w73652aednb3e5ac8109bb8eb6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:14 PM, pete <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:03:47 -0400, George Rosamond
> <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
>> RMS himself stands with Ellison :)
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/4otvb6
>>
> ah - now i'm just confused.  i've never really agreed with RMS before... :P
>

I have agreed with RMS on tech issues, but I have never agreed with
him on his politics, FSF/GPL is politics.  His "right to read" essay
is interesting in that things are playing out in a similar way with
the licensing of content, music being the most common case.  But when
he get into how the market plays into things then he blows it as it is
a religious issue with him,IMO.

marc

>
>> And the full Guardian article:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/4h9o2h
>>
>
> although i think he's taking exception with the whole ASP (application
> service provider ala gmail and salesforce.com etc) side of things - whereas
> i'm just being a grumpy old man tired of sales pitches ;)
>
> ok - i'll go away now, thanks for feeding my inner troll gman!  heh.
>
> -pete
>
> --
> Pete Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> 310.869.9459
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From carton at Ivy.NET  Wed Oct  1 14:31:08 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:31:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] on a 'lighter note' about cloud computing
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30810011056w73652aednb3e5ac8109bb8eb6@mail.gmail.com>
	(Marc Spitzer's message of "Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:56:14 -0400")
References: <48E1A523.1010701@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<6c9183447d14f03f7282d7ed75d6c623@nomadlogic.org>
	<8c50a3c30810011056w73652aednb3e5ac8109bb8eb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqbpy44177.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "ms" == Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> writes:

    ms> when he get into how the market plays into things then he
    ms> blows it as it is a religious issue with him,IMO.

``the market'' seems to be a religious issue with anyone who
incorporates it so intimately into his idealogy.  I think Stallman's
positions are better-compartmentalized than those of the typical
libertarian geek who is trying to tell me competition among peoples,
nations, companies, ideas, and software licenses is the driving engine
of all progress, and thus by ``definition'' (progress=good), Good:

 http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?p=9335059

I find the universalism and the certainty frightening, in the same way
that seriously religious people seem to crave certainty and universal
ideas are also frightening to me.  Certainty causes people to behave
drastically.  Craved certainty is likely false certainty.  Someone who
craves certainty is thus disposed to behave drastically and
mistakenly, and someone who craves the certainty of an ordered world
is likely to behave like a fascist.  so to me it feels like they are
out of control.  and FWIW, I perceive Stallman with his wild hair,
dubious hygeine, and extreme positions far outside the status-quo, as
_less_ out-of-control than the average Stephenson-reading geek
libertarian who largely agrees with the capitalist status-quo but is
just so motherfucking certain about it.

Stallman very clearly does understand that his ideal world is not the
one we live in, and he's extremely careful and deliberate about the
means he uses in trying to move from the actual world toward the one
he wishes.  He relies on convincing people with web sites, speeches,
volunteerism, and organizes through non-profits that function
primarily by offering assistance to outsiders who agree with
them---mechanisms that are accepted, mechanisms that people who
disagree with him will defend more or less universally and in many
cases vigorously.  and he's stunningly transparent about his goals,
opinions, and actions, far more so than more moderate figures who are
kind of insidious and manipulative by comparison.  In this sense, I
think he ought to be admirable on an ad-hominem level even for one who
does not admire his ideas.

I do largely agree with Stallman but would like to think
agreeing/disagreeing with an idea, and being frightened by a way of
thinking, are separate things for me.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081001/55fbf1d0/attachment.bin>

From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Fri Oct  3 17:49:16 2008
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:49:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PC BSD 7 Review
Message-ID: <9F6032E4-DDFB-4B6D-8913-F79ADA777F93@exit2shell.com>

While I have never actually used it, PC BSD is a very interesting  
project that I have been keeping my eye on. I stumbled upon this  
review and it gives a very good overview of the latest version that  
was just released.

Also, Kris Moore, who is the lead developer for this project is going  
to be at NYCBSDCon

http://www.osnews.com/story/20351/Review_PC-BSD_7

--
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Oct  6 01:04:00 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 01:04:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008 Starts at the End of the Week!
Message-ID: <48E99C40.1020809@ceetonetechnology.com>

NYCBSDCon is an annual BSD Unix technical conference organized by the 
New York City *BSD User Group (NYC*BUG at www.nycbug.org).

Don't miss this great opportunity to expand your network amid the 
tumultuous economic environment.

The conference schedule is packed with some of the best and brightest of 
the *BSD projects, with topics ranging from file systems to the portable 
C compiler, not to mention an array of developer and systems 
administrator related meetings.

Registration is only $95 and is available at 
http://www.nycbsdcon.org/2008/register.html.  Full-time students and 
Columbia University affiliates receive the discounted rate of $50 with 
proper identification.

Please note that early registration now ends on Thursday at noon, when 
the conference price jumps to $145.  Registering at the conference on 
Saturday will cost $195.

The conference kicks off Friday night, October 10th at 6 pm with an 
informal social at Havanna Central at 2911 Broadway between 113th and 
114th Streets across from Columbia University.  We encourage all 
attendees, speakers and sponsors to join us that evening.

The Havanna Central will also host our social on Saturday evening, which 
will feature an open bar.  The event requires your conference badge for 
entry.

Attendees will have an opportunity to take the BSD Certification exam by 
registering at:

https://register.bsdcertification.org//register/events/nycbsdcon

Two exams will take place over the course of the weekend, and several 
Unix cram sessions will be conducted on Saturday.

We have also received the just released BSD Magazine for free 
distribution at the conference.

The conference registration table opens at 8 am on Saturday.  Breakfast 
and lunch will be provided to attendees on both Saturday and Sunday.

A special thanks for all of our sponsors, particularly the premier 
sponsors New York Internet, DataPipe and Sun Microsystems.


From brian.gupta at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 10:29:33 2008
From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:29:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Yahoo cloud computing changes. I wonder if this
	impacts their BSD usage.
Message-ID: <5b5090780810060729m3b47ad51j95a9b13551e37788@mail.gmail.com>

http://yhoo.client.shareholder.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?&ReleaseID=318602

"Yahoo! is making changes to its technology organization, led by Chief
Technology Officer Ari Balogh, to better position the company to
execute on its strategic priorities. Principal changes are developing
a world-class cloud computing and storage infrastructure; rewiring
Yahoo! onto common platforms; and creating a stronger partnership
between product and engineering teams."

The "rewiring" bit leads me to think they might be contemplating some
sort of OS moves might be afoot.

-- 
- Brian Gupta

New York City user groups calendar:
http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=nycusergroups%40brandorr.com&ctz=America/New_York


From carton at Ivy.NET  Mon Oct  6 16:40:10 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:40:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Yahoo cloud computing changes. I wonder if
	this	impacts their BSD usage.
In-Reply-To: <5b5090780810060729m3b47ad51j95a9b13551e37788@mail.gmail.com>
	(Brian Gupta's message of "Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:29:33 -0400")
References: <5b5090780810060729m3b47ad51j95a9b13551e37788@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqr66t1mqd.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "bg" == Brian Gupta <brian.gupta at gmail.com> writes:

    bg> The "rewiring" bit leads me to think they might be
    bg> contemplating some sort of OS moves might be afoot.

nah, they're probably just talking about the rewrite of Yahoo! Mail in
Erlang.  I think that's a lot more credible than any of this gross
speculation that a newly-hired chief of IT would want to ditch FreeBSD
for Linux.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081006/1212ef31/attachment.bin>

From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Oct  8 22:13:48 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:13:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon early registration ends tomorrow
Message-ID: <48ED68DC.7060505@ceetonetechnology.com>

FYI. . .

Early registration for NYCBSDCon 2008 closes on Thursday, October 9th at 
noon.  The price will rise from $95 to $145.  At 12:01 AM on Saturday, 
the price jumps to $195.

We strongly encourage all those looking to attend to register as soon as 
possible.

http://www.nycbsdcon.org/2008/register.html

We are excited to have a strong array of speakers this year.

For all those attending, we begin Friday at 6 PM at Havanna Central on 
Broadway across from Columbia University with a cash-bar social event.


From ike at lesmuug.org  Thu Oct  9 12:40:30 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:40:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Call for Volunteers, Saturday!
Message-ID: <F254C8FD-5377-4D87-A2DB-0278E7DE7EFE@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

I'm putting out a call for volunteers for NYC*BSDCon, at 2 specific  
moments this weekend:

1) Saturday, 7am, Davis Auditorium (map here <http://www.nycbsdcon.org/2008/files/flyer-map.pdf 
 >)

2) Saturday, 6pm, Helpers at Bar, Havanna Central

--
Especially for Saturday morning, we'll need to be putting up fliers on  
campus so people find the auditorium easily!

Please email me offlist if you can help!

Best,
.ike




From brian.gupta at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 22:18:06 2008
From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:18:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] I am sick will not be able to attend tomorrow.
Message-ID: <5b5090780810101918v523440dfrf62a1447f49a11a5@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to give my "ticket" to someone else, named Patrick
Rutkowski. He will be coming tomorrow, and attending in my stead.

Thanks,
Brian

-- 
- Brian Gupta

New York City user groups calendar:
http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=nycusergroups%40brandorr.com&ctz=America/New_York


From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Oct 10 23:40:20 2008
From: alex at pilosoft.com (alex pilosov)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 03:40:20 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] I am sick will not be able to attend tomorrow.
Message-ID: <1590959270-1223696447-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1114737242-@bxe343.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Yo

We going to karaoke the "party with pilo" style now at Duette 35 bet 5 and 6. Join us!

P/lo

Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device

From lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org  Sat Oct 11 16:36:38 2008
From: lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org (Brian A. Seklecki)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:36:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Photos
Message-ID: <20081011163544.I29402@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>


Hey all:

Sorry I couldn't be there.

If you're uploading photos, feel free to post the URLs!

~ Brian

PS. Be sure to get the kids from Collaborative Fusion, Inc. really drunk.


From nikolai at fetissov.org  Sun Oct 12 09:36:26 2008
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:36:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008 first day audio is available
Message-ID: <b52d8bc26042303f430709c30db69e97.squirrel@geekisp.com>

Folks,

The first batch of audio files is available here:
http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbsdcon08/
Let me know if you spot any errors on the page - it's still early in the
morning :)
I'll add links to presentation slides once those become available.

--
 Nikolai




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Oct 12 09:39:26 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:39:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008 first day audio is available
In-Reply-To: <b52d8bc26042303f430709c30db69e97.squirrel@geekisp.com>
References: <b52d8bc26042303f430709c30db69e97.squirrel@geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <48F1FE0E.8030607@ceetonetechnology.com>

nikolai wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> The first batch of audio files is available here:
> http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbsdcon08/
> Let me know if you spot any errors on the page - it's still early in the
> morning :)
> I'll add links to presentation slides once those become available.
> 

Awesome. . .

Thanks enormously Nikolai. . .

George


From ike at lesmuug.org  Sun Oct 12 18:27:46 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:27:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYC*BSDCon Photos!
Message-ID: <EC9BAB33-0B0B-4637-8A34-15085180C3AA@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

As soon as there are good photos around, post the links to this  
thread!!!

Or- email the alias for: george at nycbug dot org, and we'll put the  
pics up...

What a great conference, I'm beat!

Rocket-
.ike




From jason at dixongroup.net  Sun Oct 12 18:45:47 2008
From: jason at dixongroup.net (Jason Dixon)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:45:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008
Message-ID: <20081012224546.GY10758@dixongroup.net>

I just wanted to thank everyone for supporting this year's conference.
Even though I'm just a speaker/attendee, I look forward to this one
every year.  It's a lot of fun to come up for the weekend and see old
friends, and meet new ones.  I'm sorry that I wasn't able to stay around
for the last talk and final ceremony, but we wanted to catch an earlier
train back to MD.  I'm syncing up my slides with the audio and hope to
have it done within a couple days.

Looking forward to 2009!

Thanks,

-- 
Jason Dixon
DixonGroup Consulting
http://www.dixongroup.net/


From nikolai at fetissov.org  Sun Oct 12 20:09:43 2008
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008 audio
Message-ID: <49f8d38e9340a84d23c9b58d2b3d58b4.squirrel@geekisp.com>

Folks,

Everything I recorded @ NYCBSDCon2008 is here:
http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbsdcon08/

I messed up recording the first Sunday talk though, sorry.
And since somebody asked me for a copy of the slides
from my pf cram session, it's up there too.

Thanks everybody for a great conference.
--
 Nikolai


From nycbug at cyth.net  Mon Oct 13 00:16:48 2008
From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:16:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008
In-Reply-To: <20081012224546.GY10758@dixongroup.net>
References: <20081012224546.GY10758@dixongroup.net>
Message-ID: <7765c0380810122116m7201d988w69dd7e1bf3ff522b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Jason Dixon <jason at dixongroup.net> wrote:
> I just wanted to thank everyone for supporting this year's conference.
> Even though I'm just a speaker/attendee, I look forward to this one
> every year.  It's a lot of fun to come up for the weekend and see old
> friends, and meet new ones.  I'm sorry that I wasn't able to stay around
> for the last talk and final ceremony, but we wanted to catch an earlier
> train back to MD.  I'm syncing up my slides with the audio and hope to
> have it done within a couple days.
>
> Looking forward to 2009!

Ditto, it was great seeing everybody!

-Ray-


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 22:29:35 2008
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:29:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008 first day audio is available
In-Reply-To: <48F1FE0E.8030607@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <b52d8bc26042303f430709c30db69e97.squirrel@geekisp.com>
	<48F1FE0E.8030607@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <aa9991030810131929x3f2cc20ft1c295413ae08b6c3@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 9:39 AM, George Rosamond
<george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
> nikolai wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> The first batch of audio files is available here:
>> http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbsdcon08/
>> Let me know if you spot any errors on the page - it's still early in the
>> morning :)
>> I'll add links to presentation slides once those become available.
>>
>
> Awesome. . .
>
> Thanks enormously Nikolai. . .
>
> George
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



I appreciate all of the work NYCBUG has put into making this happen,
and you Nikolai for making this available to me. I was attending a
wedding. A good one I might add!


-jesse


From jason at dixongroup.net  Tue Oct 14 10:37:26 2008
From: jason at dixongroup.net (Jason Dixon)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:37:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSDCon 2008
In-Reply-To: <20081012224546.GY10758@dixongroup.net>
References: <20081012224546.GY10758@dixongroup.net>
Message-ID: <20081014143726.GV21806@dixongroup.net>

My slides are available, synched with the audio from Will Backman.  If
anyone happens to link to it, please use the Google version.

http://talks.dixongroup.net/nycbsdcon2008/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8073195220998636516&hl=en


-- 
Jason Dixon
DixonGroup Consulting
http://www.dixongroup.net/


From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Tue Oct 14 18:33:54 2008
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:33:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYC*BSDCon Photos!
In-Reply-To: <EC9BAB33-0B0B-4637-8A34-15085180C3AA@lesmuug.org>
References: <EC9BAB33-0B0B-4637-8A34-15085180C3AA@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <BDE0038A-695A-4309-BBDF-558AE4F5CE63@exit2shell.com>

On Oct 12, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> As soon as there are good photos around, post the links to this
> thread!!!
>
> Or- email the alias for: george at nycbug dot org, and we'll put the
> pics up...
>
> What a great conference, I'm beat!
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>


I uploaded all the (good) photos I took and made a group on flickr.  
Hopefully everyone who was at the conference with a camera will add  
your photos as well.

You can find the group at http://www.flickr.com/groups/nycbsdcon2008/

SK


From compustretch at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 10:56:48 2008
From: compustretch at gmail.com (forest mars)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:56:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYC*BSDCon Photos!
In-Reply-To: <BDE0038A-695A-4309-BBDF-558AE4F5CE63@exit2shell.com>
References: <EC9BAB33-0B0B-4637-8A34-15085180C3AA@lesmuug.org>
	<BDE0038A-695A-4309-BBDF-558AE4F5CE63@exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <c2f754300810150756k4d4b1397i886c9cf74754884@mail.gmail.com>

This one is pretty awesome:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skreuzer/2943023244/in/pool-nycbsdcon2008

-?orest



On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com>wrote:

> On Oct 12, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
> > Hey All,
> >
> > As soon as there are good photos around, post the links to this
> > thread!!!
> >
> > Or- email the alias for: george at nycbug dot org, and we'll put the
> > pics up...
> >
> > What a great conference, I'm beat!
> >
> > Rocket-
> > .ike
> >
>
>
> I uploaded all the (good) photos I took and made a group on flickr.
> Hopefully everyone who was at the conference with a camera will add
> your photos as well.
>
> You can find the group at http://www.flickr.com/groups/nycbsdcon2008/
>
> SK
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081015/f0c4b9a8/attachment.htm>

From nycbug at cyth.net  Wed Oct 15 16:03:10 2008
From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:03:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYC*BSDCon Photos!
In-Reply-To: <c2f754300810150756k4d4b1397i886c9cf74754884@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EC9BAB33-0B0B-4637-8A34-15085180C3AA@lesmuug.org>
	<BDE0038A-695A-4309-BBDF-558AE4F5CE63@exit2shell.com>
	<c2f754300810150756k4d4b1397i886c9cf74754884@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7765c0380810151303q307a0fe0x9b578322b0cbd81f@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, that was definitely the highlight of the con!

-Ray-


On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:56 AM, forest mars <compustretch at gmail.com> wrote:
> This one is pretty awesome:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/skreuzer/2943023244/in/pool-nycbsdcon2008
>
> -?orest
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 12, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>> > Hey All,
>> >
>> > As soon as there are good photos around, post the links to this
>> > thread!!!
>> >
>> > Or- email the alias for: george at nycbug dot org, and we'll put the
>> > pics up...
>> >
>> > What a great conference, I'm beat!
>> >
>> > Rocket-
>> > .ike
>> >
>>
>>
>> I uploaded all the (good) photos I took and made a group on flickr.
>> Hopefully everyone who was at the conference with a camera will add
>> your photos as well.
>>
>> You can find the group at http://www.flickr.com/groups/nycbsdcon2008/
>>
>> SK
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>


From compustretch at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 17:32:43 2008
From: compustretch at gmail.com (forest mars)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:32:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System hands-on
	Lab THURSDAY October 16th
Message-ID: <c2f754300810151432h7e239e6cu87cf6d72f7c000c0@mail.gmail.com>

Last minute notice, but this looks really great:

-?orest


====================================================================
UNIGROUP OF NEW YORK - UNIX USERS GROUP - OCTOBER 2008 ANNOUNCEMENTS
====================================================================

  --------------------------------------
1. UNIGROUP'S OCTOBER 2008 MEETING NOTICE
  --------------------------------------

     When:  THURSDAY, October 16th, 2008    (** 3rd Thursday **)

    Where:  ** New Location **
            The Cooper Union  <http://www.cooper.edu>
            School of Engineering
            51 Astor Place  (8th Street, between 3rd and 4th Ave)
            East Village, Manhattan
            New York City
            Meeting Room: The Driscoll Room: 136E (1st Floor)
            ** Please RSVP **

     Time:  6:15 PM - 6:25 PM  Registration
            6:25 PM - 6:45 PM  Ask the Wizard, Questions,
                               Answers and Current Events
            6:45 PM - 7:00 PM  Unigroup Business and Announcements
            7:00 PM - 9:30 PM  Main Presentation

            --------------------------------------
    Topic:  The Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System:
            From The Ground Up!
            --------------------------------------

  Speaker:  Paul Charles Leddy

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  INTRODUCTION:
  -------------

  The Asterisk web site says: Asterisk is the world's leading open
  source telephony engine and tool kit.  This month, our speaker
  will give us a hands-on demonstration of setting up a free PBX
  (Phone System) and IVR (Interactive Voice Response) system,
  using VoIP (Voice over IP) phones and a VoIP provider (Internet
  Phone Service).

  Previously (back in the year 2000), Unigroup had presented
  the "Bayonne" Open Source Telephony Project.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS:
  ---------------------

  To REGISTER for this event, please RSVP by using the Unigroup
  Registration Page:
        http://www.unigroup.org/unigroup-rsvp.html

  This will allow us to automate the registration process.
  (Registration will also add you to our mailing list.)
  Please avoid emailed RSVPs.

  Please continue to check the Unigroup web site and meeting page,
  for any last minute updates concerning this meeting.  If you
  registered for this meeting, please check your email for any last
  minute announcements as the meeting approaches.  Also make sure
  any anti-spam white-lists are updated to _ALLOW_ Unigroup traffic!
  If you block Unigroup Emails, your address will be dropped from
  our mailing list.

  Please RSVP as soon as possible, preferably at least 2-3 days
  prior to the meeting date, so we can plan the food order.
  RSVP deadline is usually the night before the meeting day.

  Note: RSVP is requested for this location to make sure the guard
        will let you into the building.  RSVP also helps us to
        properly plan the meeting (food, drinks, handouts,
        seating, etc.) and speed up your sign-in at the meeting.
        If you forget to RSVP prior to the meeting day, you may
        still be able to show up and attend our meeting, however,
        we cannot guarantee what building security will do if
        you are "not on the list".

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  MAIN PRESENTATION
  -----------------

  Topic: The Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System:
         From The Ground Up!

  We'll compile the code and start up the asterisk server.  Then
  hook up a couple of phones so we can make an internal PBX call.
  From there, we'll register with a VoIP provider and make
  a real call to someone in the audience.  Last, we can also build
  a basic voice response system to make a virtual "haunted house"
  for this coming October 31st.

  Outline for the Talk:

   - About The Asterisk Project
   - Getting the code and compiling it
   - Basic configuration
   - Setting up phone extensions
   - Registering a SIP phone
   - Making an internal call
   - Registering with a VoIP service
   - Calling an outside line, receiving a call from an outside line
   - Basic call routing and IVR (Interactive Voice Response)
   - (Helping people get a system up and running on their laptops)


  Web Resources:
  --------------

  Asterisk
    http://www.asterisk.org/

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Speaker Biography:
  ------------------

  Paul Charles Leddy has been a Linux Systems Administrator for about
  10 years.  The story of how he got involved with computer telephony
  is: "Dreaming of voice over the Internet since circa '96, when
  Paul heard about Mark Spencer's Asterisk, he just had to get it up
  and running.  He downloaded the code onto his Mac laptop and had a
  dial tone within minutes: Wow!  Since then, he has gone on to
  implement a few phone extensions, Interactive Voice Response
  playhouses, hooked up to a real live VoIP service or two, like
  Junction Networks and VoipJet, and helped friends and family
  discover the wonderful world of cheap talk, walking the walk."

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Company Biography:
  ------------------

  Paul Charles Leddy is available for help and consultations.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Giveaways:
  ----------

  Addison-Wesley Professional/Prentice Hall PTR has been kind
  enough to provide us with some of their books, which we will
  continue to raffle off as giveaways at our meetings.

  O'Reilly has been kind enough to provide us with some of their
  books, which we will continue to raffle off as giveaways at our
  meetings.

  Unigroup would like to thank both companies for the support
  provided by their User Group programs.

  Note: The chances tend to be about 1 in 5, that any attendee of
  our meeting will walk away with a fairly valuable giveaway
  (ie. most books are valued between $30 and $60)!

  As always, all of the books will be available for review at the
  start of the meeting.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Fee Schedule:
  -------------

  Unigroup is a Professional Technical Organization and User Group,
  and its members pay a yearly membership fee.  For Unigroup members,
  there is usually no additional charges (ie. no meeting fees) during
  their membership year.  Non-members who wish to attend Unigroup
  meetings are usually required to pay a "Single Meeting Fee".

      Yearly Membership (includes all meetings):      $ 50.00
      Student Yearly Membership (with current ID):    $ 25.00
      Non-Member Single Meeting:                      $ 20.00
      Non-Member Student Single Meeting (with ID):    $  5.00

    * Payment Methods: Cash, Check, American Express.

  NOTE: Simply receiving Unigroup Email Announcements does NOT
        indicate membership in Unigroup.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Food:
  -----

  Complimentary Food and Refreshments will be served.  This
  includes "wraps" such as turkey, roast beef, chicken, tuna
  and grilled vegetables as well as assorted salads (potato,
  tossed, pasta, etc), cookies, brownies, bottled water and
  assorted SOFT beverages.

  ** Note: We will be using our normal caterer for this meeting.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Directions:
  -----------

     The Cooper Union  <http://www.cooper.edu>
     School of Engineering
     51 Astor Place  (8th Street, between 3rd and 4th Ave)
     East Village, Manhattan
     New York City
     Room: The Driscoll Room: 136E (1st Floor)

  Located on the North side of Astor Place (8th Street), between
    3rd & 4th Avenues.

  Building lobby sign-in is required at the guard's desk.
  Enter the building, check in with the guard at the lobby for
    directions to The Driscoll Room (1st Floor)...  From the
    main entrance, keep going straight beyond the guard till the
    end of the hall, make a left, pass the elevators (on your
    left), keep going, and Room 136E will be on your right.

  Nearest mass transit stations are:
    '6'           to Astor Place (stops right at The Cooper Union).
    'R'           to 8th Street, then walk about 2 blocks East.
    '4/5/6/R/N/Q' to Union Square, then walk South and East.
    'B/D/F/V'     to Broadway-Lafayette, then walk North and East.

  We believe free street parking becomes available at 6pm.

  -----

  Please mark this meeting on your calendar and join us!
  Please tell your friends about Unigroup!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  --------------
2. PRIOR MEETINGS
  --------------

  ** Formal Thank You's to our previous speakers will appear
     in an upcoming announcement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  -----------------
3. UPCOMING MEETINGS
  -----------------

  We have a series of meetings in the works:

  - 16-OCT-2008: The Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System
  - 20-NOV-2008: Solaris (with OpenSolaris) Launch Meeting (Field Trip: Sun)
  - 15-JAN-2009: Linux Real-Time Messaging (Tervela)
  -        2009: The FreeBSD Networking Stack (George Neville-Neil)
  -    MAR-2009: SuSE Linux Real-Time Kernel (Field Trip: Novell/SuSE)
  - Planning: IPsec and IPv6 and VPNs  (possibly 3 meetings)
  - Planning: NO SPAM!
  - Planning: Embedded Linux Development
  - Planning: Unix/Linux/BSD Distribution Round Table Discussions
  - Unix/Linux/BSD Clusters and Clustered Databases
  - The latest on *BSD (NetBSD/OpenBSD)
  - Crypto / PKI / GPG-PGP
  - Patching and Updating Unix/Linux/BSD (rpm. yum, yast, etc.)
  - Building Custom Kernels Unix/Linux/BSD
  - Are there too many Linux Distributions?
  - Linux Clustering Part 3: Beowulf
  - Building a Firewall using FreeBSD and Linux
  - LAMP Part 2 - PHP
  - Field Trip to HP
  - Unix 35th Birthday Celebration (Sun has offered to host this!)
  - Samba
  - DNS
  - High Performance Internet Servers / Web Acceleration
  - Unix Office Tools: Word Processors, Spreadsheets, Accounting Packages.
  - GNU Development Environments
  - iSCSI, Serial ATA, and other new peripheral technologies
  - Java and/or JavaScript Programming

  ** Unigroup Needs Speakers!!
  Please let us know about any other meeting topics that you may be
  interested in.  Potential speakers on Unix/Linux/BSD related
  technology topics should please contact the Unigroup Board.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  --------------------
4. UNIGROUP INFORMATION
  --------------------

  Unigroup is one of the oldest and largest Unix User's Groups serving
  the Greater New York City Regional Area since the early 1980s.
  Unigroup is a not-for-profit, vendor-neutral and member funded
  volunteer organization.  Unigroup holds regular and special event
  meetings throughout the year on technical topics relating to Unix
  and the Unix/Linux/BSD User Community.

  Unigroup holds regular meetings planned for (at a minimum) the Third
  THURSDAY of Odd Months.  We generally try to hold Field Trip or
  Vendor Specific Meetings on the Even Months, although we do have the
  ability to hold monthly meetings at our new downtown meeting location.

  Planned regular meeting dates are (usually 3rd Thursdays):
    10/16/2008, 11/20/2008 (Field Trip), 1/15/2009, 3/19/2009 (Field
Trip)...
  Watch for our Special Event meetings at the various trade shows in NYC
  as well as "Field Trips" to the facilities of local hardware and
  software vendors.

  =========================================================================
  = For Unigroup Information, Events and Meeting Announcements be sure to =
  = visit our World Wide Web Home Page:                                   =
  =       http://www.unigroup.org                                         =
  =========================================================================

  For further information or to get on the Unigroup Electronic Mail Mailing
  List send an EMail message to:
       unilist (-a_t-) unigroup.org

  To contact the Board of Directors of Unigroup, send an EMail message to:
       uniboard (-a_t-) unigroup.org

  If you have recently attended a meeting and you are not receiving
  Email announcements, please send us an Email and we will make
  corrections to our lists.

  Please Email the Board with any suggestions, especially potential
  meeting topics and speakers.  Unigroup welcomes contributions and
  content suggestions for our newsletter.  Unigroup is a volunteer
  organization and we need your assistance!  Please let us know if you
  can help!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Rob Weiner
 Unigroup Executive Director
 unilist (-a_t-) unigroup.org
 http://www.unigroup.org

 Reply
 Reply to all
 Forward
Unigroup_of_NYNOTE: Unigroup's October 2008 meeting is next Thursday.
=====================...
Oct 11 (5 days ago)
forest marsNOTE: Unigroup's October 2008 meeting is this Thursday.
Oct 14 (1 day ago)
forest marsThis promises to be very cool. A talk followed by a hands on lab.
And a virtu...
Oct 14 (1 day ago)
Mail Delivery Subsystem to me
show details 5:17 PM (9 minutes ago)
Reply
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed:

    talk at lists.nycbug.org

Message will be retried for 2 more day(s)

Technical details of temporary failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient
domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further
information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server
returned was: 451 451 Temporary failure, please try again later. (state 15).

  ----- Message header follows -----

Received: by 10.181.193.15 with SMTP id v15mr146215bkp.7.1224014821774;
       Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.181.61.13 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <c2f754300810141307v23c4d12bsbafddf6ba71d7f3f at mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:07:01 -0400
From: "forest mars" <compustretch at gmail.com>
To: "NYCBUG List" <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: UNIGROUP Meeting 16-OCT-2008 (Thu): Asterisk Open Source
PBX/Telephony System
In-Reply-To: <200810111102.m9BB24oJ001255 at progplus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
       boundary="----=_Part_67316_23394502.1224014821735"
References: <200810111102.m9BB24oJ001255 at progplus.com>

  ----- Message body suppressed -----
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081015/51a2141c/attachment.htm>

From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Oct 15 18:15:51 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:15:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System
 hands-on Lab THURSDAY October 16th
In-Reply-To: <c2f754300810151432h7e239e6cu87cf6d72f7c000c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c2f754300810151432h7e239e6cu87cf6d72f7c000c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F66B97.2060901@ceetonetechnology.com>

forest mars wrote:
> Last minute notice, but this looks really great: 
> 
> -?orest
> 

It's been said before. . . but this is *not* an announce list.

g


From compustretch at gmail.com  Tue Oct 14 16:07:01 2008
From: compustretch at gmail.com (forest mars)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:07:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] UNIGROUP Meeting 16-OCT-2008 (Thu): Asterisk Open
	Source PBX/Telephony System
In-Reply-To: <200810111102.m9BB24oJ001255@progplus.com>
References: <200810111102.m9BB24oJ001255@progplus.com>
Message-ID: <c2f754300810141307v23c4d12bsbafddf6ba71d7f3f@mail.gmail.com>

NOTE: Unigroup's October 2008 meeting is this Thursday.

====================================================================
UNIGROUP OF NEW YORK - UNIX USERS GROUP - OCTOBER 2008 ANNOUNCEMENTS
====================================================================

  --------------------------------------
1. UNIGROUP'S OCTOBER 2008 MEETING NOTICE
  --------------------------------------

     When:  THURSDAY, October 16th, 2008    (** 3rd Thursday **)

    Where:  ** New Location **
            The Cooper Union  <http://www.cooper.edu>
            School of Engineering
            51 Astor Place  (8th Street, between 3rd and 4th Ave)
            East Village, Manhattan
            New York City
            Meeting Room: The Driscoll Room: 136E (1st Floor)
            ** Please RSVP **

     Time:  6:15 PM - 6:25 PM  Registration
            6:25 PM - 6:45 PM  Ask the Wizard, Questions,
                               Answers and Current Events
            6:45 PM - 7:00 PM  Unigroup Business and Announcements
            7:00 PM - 9:30 PM  Main Presentation

            --------------------------------------
    Topic:  The Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System:
            From The Ground Up!
            --------------------------------------

  Speaker:  Paul Charles Leddy

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  INTRODUCTION:
  -------------

  The Asterisk web site says: Asterisk is the world's leading open
  source telephony engine and tool kit.  This month, our speaker
  will give us a hands-on demonstration of setting up a free PBX
  (Phone System) and IVR (Interactive Voice Response) system,
  using VoIP (Voice over IP) phones and a VoIP provider (Internet
  Phone Service).

  Previously (back in the year 2000), Unigroup had presented
  the "Bayonne" Open Source Telephony Project.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS:
  ---------------------

  To REGISTER for this event, please RSVP by using the Unigroup
  Registration Page:
        http://www.unigroup.org/unigroup-rsvp.html

  This will allow us to automate the registration process.
  (Registration will also add you to our mailing list.)
  Please avoid emailed RSVPs.

  Please continue to check the Unigroup web site and meeting page,
  for any last minute updates concerning this meeting.  If you
  registered for this meeting, please check your email for any last
  minute announcements as the meeting approaches.  Also make sure
  any anti-spam white-lists are updated to _ALLOW_ Unigroup traffic!
  If you block Unigroup Emails, your address will be dropped from
  our mailing list.

  Please RSVP as soon as possible, preferably at least 2-3 days
  prior to the meeting date, so we can plan the food order.
  RSVP deadline is usually the night before the meeting day.

  Note: RSVP is requested for this location to make sure the guard
        will let you into the building.  RSVP also helps us to
        properly plan the meeting (food, drinks, handouts,
        seating, etc.) and speed up your sign-in at the meeting.
        If you forget to RSVP prior to the meeting day, you may
        still be able to show up and attend our meeting, however,
        we cannot guarantee what building security will do if
        you are "not on the list".

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  MAIN PRESENTATION
  -----------------

  Topic: The Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System:
         From The Ground Up!

  We'll compile the code and start up the asterisk server.  Then
  hook up a couple of phones so we can make an internal PBX call.
  From there, we'll register with a VoIP provider and make
  a real call to someone in the audience.  Last, we can also build
  a basic voice response system to make a virtual "haunted house"
  for this coming October 31st.

  Outline for the Talk:

   - About The Asterisk Project
   - Getting the code and compiling it
   - Basic configuration
   - Setting up phone extensions
   - Registering a SIP phone
   - Making an internal call
   - Registering with a VoIP service
   - Calling an outside line, receiving a call from an outside line
   - Basic call routing and IVR (Interactive Voice Response)
   - (Helping people get a system up and running on their laptops)


  Web Resources:
  --------------

  Asterisk
    http://www.asterisk.org/

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Speaker Biography:
  ------------------

  Paul Charles Leddy has been a Linux Systems Administrator for about
  10 years.  The story of how he got involved with computer telephony
  is: "Dreaming of voice over the Internet since circa '96, when
  Paul heard about Mark Spencer's Asterisk, he just had to get it up
  and running.  He downloaded the code onto his Mac laptop and had a
  dial tone within minutes: Wow!  Since then, he has gone on to
  implement a few phone extensions, Interactive Voice Response
  playhouses, hooked up to a real live VoIP service or two, like
  Junction Networks and VoipJet, and helped friends and family
  discover the wonderful world of cheap talk, walking the walk."

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Company Biography:
  ------------------

  Paul Charles Leddy is available for help and consultations.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Giveaways:
  ----------

  Addison-Wesley Professional/Prentice Hall PTR has been kind
  enough to provide us with some of their books, which we will
  continue to raffle off as giveaways at our meetings.

  O'Reilly has been kind enough to provide us with some of their
  books, which we will continue to raffle off as giveaways at our
  meetings.

  Unigroup would like to thank both companies for the support
  provided by their User Group programs.

  Note: The chances tend to be about 1 in 5, that any attendee of
  our meeting will walk away with a fairly valuable giveaway
  (ie. most books are valued between $30 and $60)!

  As always, all of the books will be available for review at the
  start of the meeting.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Fee Schedule:
  -------------

  Unigroup is a Professional Technical Organization and User Group,
  and its members pay a yearly membership fee.  For Unigroup members,
  there is usually no additional charges (ie. no meeting fees) during
  their membership year.  Non-members who wish to attend Unigroup
  meetings are usually required to pay a "Single Meeting Fee".

      Yearly Membership (includes all meetings):      $ 50.00
      Student Yearly Membership (with current ID):    $ 25.00
      Non-Member Single Meeting:                      $ 20.00
      Non-Member Student Single Meeting (with ID):    $  5.00

    * Payment Methods: Cash, Check, American Express.

  NOTE: Simply receiving Unigroup Email Announcements does NOT
        indicate membership in Unigroup.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Food:
  -----

  Complimentary Food and Refreshments will be served.  This
  includes "wraps" such as turkey, roast beef, chicken, tuna
  and grilled vegetables as well as assorted salads (potato,
  tossed, pasta, etc), cookies, brownies, bottled water and
  assorted SOFT beverages.

  ** Note: We will be using our normal caterer for this meeting.

  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Directions:
  -----------

     The Cooper Union  <http://www.cooper.edu>
     School of Engineering
     51 Astor Place  (8th Street, between 3rd and 4th Ave)
     East Village, Manhattan
     New York City
     Room: The Driscoll Room: 136E (1st Floor)

  Located on the North side of Astor Place (8th Street), between
    3rd & 4th Avenues.

  Building lobby sign-in is required at the guard's desk.
  Enter the building, check in with the guard at the lobby for
    directions to The Driscoll Room (1st Floor)...  From the
    main entrance, keep going straight beyond the guard till the
    end of the hall, make a left, pass the elevators (on your
    left), keep going, and Room 136E will be on your right.

  Nearest mass transit stations are:
    '6'           to Astor Place (stops right at The Cooper Union).
    'R'           to 8th Street, then walk about 2 blocks East.
    '4/5/6/R/N/Q' to Union Square, then walk South and East.
    'B/D/F/V'     to Broadway-Lafayette, then walk North and East.

  We believe free street parking becomes available at 6pm.

  -----

  Please mark this meeting on your calendar and join us!
  Please tell your friends about Unigroup!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  --------------
2. PRIOR MEETINGS
  --------------

  ** Formal Thank You's to our previous speakers will appear
     in an upcoming announcement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  -----------------
3. UPCOMING MEETINGS
  -----------------

  We have a series of meetings in the works:

  - 16-OCT-2008: The Asterisk Open Source PBX/Telephony System
  - 20-NOV-2008: Solaris (with OpenSolaris) Launch Meeting (Field Trip: Sun)
  - 15-JAN-2009: Linux Real-Time Messaging (Tervela)
  -        2009: The FreeBSD Networking Stack (George Neville-Neil)
  -    MAR-2009: SuSE Linux Real-Time Kernel (Field Trip: Novell/SuSE)
  - Planning: IPsec and IPv6 and VPNs  (possibly 3 meetings)
  - Planning: NO SPAM!
  - Planning: Embedded Linux Development
  - Planning: Unix/Linux/BSD Distribution Round Table Discussions
  - Unix/Linux/BSD Clusters and Clustered Databases
  - The latest on *BSD (NetBSD/OpenBSD)
  - Crypto / PKI / GPG-PGP
  - Patching and Updating Unix/Linux/BSD (rpm. yum, yast, etc.)
  - Building Custom Kernels Unix/Linux/BSD
  - Are there too many Linux Distributions?
  - Linux Clustering Part 3: Beowulf
  - Building a Firewall using FreeBSD and Linux
  - LAMP Part 2 - PHP
  - Field Trip to HP
  - Unix 35th Birthday Celebration (Sun has offered to host this!)
  - Samba
  - DNS
  - High Performance Internet Servers / Web Acceleration
  - Unix Office Tools: Word Processors, Spreadsheets, Accounting Packages.
  - GNU Development Environments
  - iSCSI, Serial ATA, and other new peripheral technologies
  - Java and/or JavaScript Programming

  ** Unigroup Needs Speakers!!
  Please let us know about any other meeting topics that you may be
  interested in.  Potential speakers on Unix/Linux/BSD related
  technology topics should please contact the Unigroup Board.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  --------------------
4. UNIGROUP INFORMATION
  --------------------

  Unigroup is one of the oldest and largest Unix User's Groups serving
  the Greater New York City Regional Area since the early 1980s.
  Unigroup is a not-for-profit, vendor-neutral and member funded
  volunteer organization.  Unigroup holds regular and special event
  meetings throughout the year on technical topics relating to Unix
  and the Unix/Linux/BSD User Community.

  Unigroup holds regular meetings planned for (at a minimum) the Third
  THURSDAY of Odd Months.  We generally try to hold Field Trip or
  Vendor Specific Meetings on the Even Months, although we do have the
  ability to hold monthly meetings at our new downtown meeting location.

  Planned regular meeting dates are (usually 3rd Thursdays):
    10/16/2008, 11/20/2008 (Field Trip), 1/15/2009, 3/19/2009 (Field
Trip)...
  Watch for our Special Event meetings at the various trade shows in NYC
  as well as "Field Trips" to the facilities of local hardware and
  software vendors.

  =========================================================================
  = For Unigroup Information, Events and Meeting Announcements be sure to =
  = visit our World Wide Web Home Page:                                   =
  =       http://www.unigroup.org                                         =
  =========================================================================

  For further information or to get on the Unigroup Electronic Mail Mailing
  List send an EMail message to:
       unilist (-a_t-) unigroup.org

  To contact the Board of Directors of Unigroup, send an EMail message to:
       uniboard (-a_t-) unigroup.org

  If you have recently attended a meeting and you are not receiving
  Email announcements, please send us an Email and we will make
  corrections to our lists.

  Please Email the Board with any suggestions, especially potential
  meeting topics and speakers.  Unigroup welcomes contributions and
  content suggestions for our newsletter.  Unigroup is a volunteer
  organization and we need your assistance!  Please let us know if you
  can help!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Rob Weiner
 Unigroup Executive Director
 unilist (-a_t-) unigroup.org
 http://www.unigroup.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081014/a7cf00e7/attachment.htm>

From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 16 22:29:40 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
Message-ID: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>

I'm researching co-location providers in the New York City area.  Most 
dedicated hosting providers are in Texas (or at least outside of this 
area), so I'd like to limit this to co-location.  There are two types of 
providers I'm researching:

1) Strictly co-location -- we drop the hardware off, we manage it, the 
company just simply provides the power, data center, bandwidth, etc.  24/7 
access would be a must.

2) I'm not sure if this exists, and if it would even be cost-effective, 
but I informed my boss that I would at least try.  Somewhat of "Managed 
Co-Location" - all of #1, but on top of that, management of the servers as 
well.  I informed him that most co-location companies don't have NOCs that 
will manage things at a software level (a service usually limited to 
managed hosting companies like Rackspace, The Planet, etc. that also 
provide the servers). I also feel would probably be better to just hire 
contractors and/or full timers to run the co-located equipment.  BUT -- if 
"managed co-location" does indeed exist in the NYC, and it's cost 
effective, I'd love to hear about it.


Thanks!

-Matt


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Thu Oct 16 22:56:26 2008
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:56:26 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
In-Reply-To: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4B3484FE-592A-401F-97BA-A28988B8CED9@nomadlogic.org>


On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> I'm researching co-location providers in the New York City area.  Most
> dedicated hosting providers are in Texas (or at least outside of this
> area), so I'd like to limit this to co-location.  There are two  
> types of
> providers I'm researching:
>
> 1) Strictly co-location -- we drop the hardware off, we manage it, the
> company just simply provides the power, data center, bandwidth,  
> etc.  24/7
> access would be a must.
>
> 2) I'm not sure if this exists, and if it would even be cost- 
> effective,
> but I informed my boss that I would at least try.  Somewhat of  
> "Managed
> Co-Location" - all of #1, but on top of that, management of the  
> servers as
> well.  I informed him that most co-location companies don't have  
> NOCs that
> will manage things at a software level (a service usually limited to
> managed hosting companies like Rackspace, The Planet, etc. that also
> provide the servers). I also feel would probably be better to just  
> hire
> contractors and/or full timers to run the co-located equipment.  BUT  
> -- if
> "managed co-location" does indeed exist in the NYC, and it's cost
> effective, I'd love to hear about it.
>

NYI (www.nyi.net) is the first thing that comes to mind.  i *know*  
there are alot of other facilities in the area - but this is the only  
shop i have direct experience with.  i'm sure others will chime in  
too :)

-pete


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 16 22:58:37 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:58:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
In-Reply-To: <4B3484FE-592A-401F-97BA-A28988B8CED9@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4B3484FE-592A-401F-97BA-A28988B8CED9@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20081016225823.X87275@mercury.atopia.net>

> NYI (www.nyi.net) is the first thing that comes to mind.  i *know* there are 
> alot of other facilities in the area - but this is the only shop i have 
> direct experience with.  i'm sure others will chime in too :)
>
> -pete

Strictly colo, or also managed?


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Thu Oct 16 23:01:14 2008
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:01:14 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
In-Reply-To: <20081016225823.X87275@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4B3484FE-592A-401F-97BA-A28988B8CED9@nomadlogic.org>
	<20081016225823.X87275@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <92435DE1-CFBE-46ED-9DA7-0C74D9750820@nomadlogic.org>


On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> NYI (www.nyi.net) is the first thing that comes to mind.  i *know*  
>> there are alot of other facilities in the area - but this is the  
>> only shop i have direct experience with.  i'm sure others will  
>> chime in too :)
>>
>> -pete
>
> Strictly colo, or also managed?


NYI does both - it's all on the site.  nycbug hosts our machines there  
(and i keep my private server there as well).  but they do managed  
servers as well.  it's a freebsd shop too fwiw.

-pete


From spork at bway.net  Fri Oct 17 00:10:09 2008
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:10:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
In-Reply-To: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810170005180.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

One thing that might make a difference (besides your budget) is how much 
space you need.

If you just need a few servers, that is one tough nut to crack on a modest 
budget.  If you need a full rack, the market is much larger (and more 
affordable on a per rack-unit basis).

I asked the same thing some time ago, and like you I ended up with most of 
my options being in Texas.  Even that was not the best deal for just two 
servers, so I ended up hitting up another business/friend that has a rack 
at NAC.net that was not totally full.  That worked out well, since it's 
going to be a barter situation. :)  I also like the idea of not being 
smack dab in the middle of the city should there be any future calamaties 
there.

Charles

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> I'm researching co-location providers in the New York City area.  Most
> dedicated hosting providers are in Texas (or at least outside of this
> area), so I'd like to limit this to co-location.  There are two types of
> providers I'm researching:
>
> 1) Strictly co-location -- we drop the hardware off, we manage it, the
> company just simply provides the power, data center, bandwidth, etc.  24/7
> access would be a must.
>
> 2) I'm not sure if this exists, and if it would even be cost-effective,
> but I informed my boss that I would at least try.  Somewhat of "Managed
> Co-Location" - all of #1, but on top of that, management of the servers as
> well.  I informed him that most co-location companies don't have NOCs that
> will manage things at a software level (a service usually limited to
> managed hosting companies like Rackspace, The Planet, etc. that also
> provide the servers). I also feel would probably be better to just hire
> contractors and/or full timers to run the co-located equipment.  BUT -- if
> "managed co-location" does indeed exist in the NYC, and it's cost
> effective, I'd love to hear about it.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From matt at atopia.net  Fri Oct 17 14:42:42 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:42:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
In-Reply-To: <0CF59C4890F7A04AAC3B1E798E6F86F303E04565@fsi32.fsidp.insidefsi.com>
References: <0CF59C4890F7A04AAC3B1E798E6F86F303E04565@fsi32.fsidp.insidefsi.com>
Message-ID: <20081017144220.O61628@mercury.atopia.net>

Thank you for all of your submissions !

-Matt

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> http://www.fsiwebs.com/
>
> DISCLAIMER: I work for FSI, but the Webs division is almost a seperate entity.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org]On Behalf Of Matt Juszczak
> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:30 PM
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
>
>
> I'm researching co-location providers in the New York City area.  Most
> dedicated hosting providers are in Texas (or at least outside of this
> area), so I'd like to limit this to co-location.  There are two types of
> providers I'm researching:
>
> 1) Strictly co-location -- we drop the hardware off, we manage it, the
> company just simply provides the power, data center, bandwidth, etc.  24/7
> access would be a must.
>
> 2) I'm not sure if this exists, and if it would even be cost-effective,
> but I informed my boss that I would at least try.  Somewhat of "Managed
> Co-Location" - all of #1, but on top of that, management of the servers as
> well.  I informed him that most co-location companies don't have NOCs that
> will manage things at a software level (a service usually limited to
> managed hosting companies like Rackspace, The Planet, etc. that also
> provide the servers). I also feel would probably be better to just hire
> contractors and/or full timers to run the co-located equipment.  BUT -- if
> "managed co-location" does indeed exist in the NYC, and it's cost
> effective, I'd love to hear about it.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> This message may contain confidential or proprietary information and is intended solely for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed.  If you are not a named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail or act upon the information contained herein.  Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.
>


From dan at langille.org  Fri Oct 17 15:48:43 2008
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:48:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colocation providers in the NYC area
In-Reply-To: <4B3484FE-592A-401F-97BA-A28988B8CED9@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20081016222141.X56004@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4B3484FE-592A-401F-97BA-A28988B8CED9@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <8D830605-21DF-49E6-96F8-8C25FEF0E236@langille.org>


On Oct 16, 2008, at 10:56 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

>
> On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:
>
>> I'm researching co-location providers in the New York City area.   
>> Most
>> dedicated hosting providers are in Texas (or at least outside of this
>> area), so I'd like to limit this to co-location.  There are two
>> types of
>> providers I'm researching:
>>
>> 1) Strictly co-location -- we drop the hardware off, we manage it,  
>> the
>> company just simply provides the power, data center, bandwidth,
>> etc.  24/7
>> access would be a must.
>>
>> 2) I'm not sure if this exists, and if it would even be cost-
>> effective,
>> but I informed my boss that I would at least try.  Somewhat of
>> "Managed
>> Co-Location" - all of #1, but on top of that, management of the
>> servers as
>> well.  I informed him that most co-location companies don't have
>> NOCs that
>> will manage things at a software level (a service usually limited to
>> managed hosting companies like Rackspace, The Planet, etc. that also
>> provide the servers). I also feel would probably be better to just
>> hire
>> contractors and/or full timers to run the co-located equipment.  BUT
>> -- if
>> "managed co-location" does indeed exist in the NYC, and it's cost
>> effective, I'd love to hear about it.
>>
>
> NYI (www.nyi.net) is the first thing that comes to mind.  i *know*
> there are alot of other facilities in the area - but this is the only
> shop i have direct experience with.  i'm sure others will chime in
> too :)


FYI: I've been using NYI for a number of years.  freebsddiary.org
and freshports.org both ran on that box.  Always been a good
reliable box.

disclosure: they donate the bandwidth box to me.

-- 
Dan Langille
http://langille.org/






From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct 21 14:00:34 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:00:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
Message-ID: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>

Slightly off topic, but here goes:

I'm on a lot of "Social Networking Sites".  I find that they are more 
hassle than they are worth.  First, I find that the only true contacts you 
can really make are either people you meet in person or people that refer 
you directly -- but most of these sites like "Linked In" are turning into 
everyone being friends with everyone and half the people I'm friends with 
are recruiters, or people I've never met before.  MOST of the successful 
job leads I get are from places like this list, or people contacting me 
directly on monster/dice, etc. which I only have active when I'm looking.

So what are your thoughts?  Do you find LinkedIn (and similar sites like 
Pulse) to be beneficial to your tech career, or too annoying to manage and 
think about?

-Matt


From ike at lesmuug.org  Tue Oct 21 14:11:05 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:11:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <2B52AE12-AD60-4BE1-BF8D-34458B389C17@lesmuug.org>

On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> Slightly off topic, but here goes:
>
> I'm on a lot of "Social Networking Sites".  I find that they are more
> hassle than they are worth.  First, I find that the only true  
> contacts you
> can really make are either people you meet in person or people that  
> refer
> you directly -- but most of these sites like "Linked In" are turning  
> into
> everyone being friends with everyone and half the people I'm friends  
> with
> are recruiters, or people I've never met before.  MOST of the  
> successful
> job leads I get are from places like this list, or people contacting  
> me
> directly on monster/dice, etc. which I only have active when I'm  
> looking.
>
> So what are your thoughts?  Do you find LinkedIn (and similar sites  
> like
> Pulse) to be beneficial to your tech career, or too annoying to  
> manage and
> think about?
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Well, how many of us keep homepages anymore?  :)

I find it's all what one makes of it.  Some of my previous employers  
took Linkedin quite seriously, and to be honest, it's not all that bad  
for work stuff... references, etc...

It really gets messy and stupid when everyone plugs into everyone else  
with no reason.

But a requisite for working, no way IMHO.  Just another thing.

my .02?

Rocket-
.ike




From mikel.king at olivent.com  Tue Oct 21 14:26:28 2008
From: mikel.king at olivent.com (Mikel King)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:26:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <8E9BDD8D-CDAE-442D-91F8-595123B7B5F9@olivent.com>


On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> Slightly off topic, but here goes:
>
> I'm on a lot of "Social Networking Sites".  I find that they are more
> hassle than they are worth.  First, I find that the only true  
> contacts you
> can really make are either people you meet in person or people that  
> refer
> you directly -- but most of these sites like "Linked In" are turning  
> into
> everyone being friends with everyone and half the people I'm friends  
> with
> are recruiters, or people I've never met before.  MOST of the  
> successful
> job leads I get are from places like this list, or people contacting  
> me
> directly on monster/dice, etc. which I only have active when I'm  
> looking.
>
> So what are your thoughts?  Do you find LinkedIn (and similar sites  
> like
> Pulse) to be beneficial to your tech career, or too annoying to  
> manage and
> think about?
>
> -Matt

I find it handy to stay connected to client contact event after the  
relocate. LI is one of the less obnoxious sites.

m




From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Tue Oct 21 15:14:01 2008
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:14:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <C4A3B5C8-E1FF-49D9-B5E1-C3769644371F@exit2shell.com>


On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> Slightly off topic, but here goes:
>
> I'm on a lot of "Social Networking Sites".  I find that they are more
> hassle than they are worth.  First, I find that the only true  
> contacts you
> can really make are either people you meet in person or people that  
> refer
> you directly -- but most of these sites like "Linked In" are turning  
> into
> everyone being friends with everyone and half the people I'm friends  
> with
> are recruiters, or people I've never met before.  MOST of the  
> successful
> job leads I get are from places like this list, or people contacting  
> me
> directly on monster/dice, etc. which I only have active when I'm  
> looking.
>
> So what are your thoughts?  Do you find LinkedIn (and similar sites  
> like
> Pulse) to be beneficial to your tech career, or too annoying to  
> manage and
> think about?
>
> -Matt

For what its worth, my current employer found me through LinkedIn.  
Another nice
feature is that if you add all your former coworkers into your  
network, you'll usually
have access to their most current and accurate contact information  
which comes in
handy when a potential employer asks you for references.

SK


From ike at lesmuug.org  Tue Oct 21 15:40:41 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:40:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0810211516580.5644@foster.stonedcoder.org>
Message-ID: <3BA0ABEA-99F7-4EDB-BB87-55137DB6B3CA@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

An FYI for anyone interested- somebody over at NY Resistor is kindof  
putting together a CTF team- FINALLY someone in NY pulling something  
together...

Not sure, but I think more folks around NYC*BUG than myself are  
interested in participating?...

Rocket-
.ike



Begin forwarded message:

> From: druid at stonedcoder.org
> Date: October 21, 2008 3:17:18 PM EDT
> To: "NYCResistor:Microcontrollers" <nycresistormicrocontrollers at googlegroups.com 
> >
> Subject: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
> Reply-To: nycresistormicrocontrollers at googlegroups.com
>
> I set up a google group to track interest and start planning  
> logistics.
> Please forward this URL around to anyone who may be interested
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/nyc_ctf?hl=en
>
> -Eric
>
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, dave.giancaspro at gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I would be interested in a local CTF. December is crazy for me also.
>> Plus setting up a local game would allow you to check out the local
>> talent to build a team for the next competition. I will check with a
>> few other people at work and give you a head count.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> On Oct 20, 12:41 pm, dr... at stonedcoder.org wrote:
>>> So 2 things:
>>>
>>> 1) If there is enough interest, we can form an NYC team to play at  
>>> the
>>> 25C3 conference remotely in december.
>>>
>>> 2) McFly may visit in February, and MAY be willing to host a game,  
>>> once
>>> again assuming enough interest.
>>>
>>> Both of these are McFly being really nice to us, so please ping  
>>> around and
>>> let's see how much real interest there is. I lean more toward  
>>> doing a
>>> local CTF in february over participating remotely in the 25C3  
>>> conference
>>> because I have a work summit in december to go to, but wanted to  
>>> put both
>>> options out there to gauge response.
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>>
>>
>>
> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> Groups "NYCResistor:Microcontrollers" group.
> To post to this group, send email to nycresistormicrocontrollers at googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to nycresistormicrocontrollers+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nycresistormicrocontrollers?hl=en
> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>



From bschonhorst at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 15:42:30 2008
From: bschonhorst at gmail.com (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:42:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <C4A3B5C8-E1FF-49D9-B5E1-C3769644371F@exit2shell.com>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<C4A3B5C8-E1FF-49D9-B5E1-C3769644371F@exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <7708fd680810211242o7f3e7f48q8eb0f840083407d5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:
>
>> Slightly off topic, but here goes:
>>
>> I'm on a lot of "Social Networking Sites".  I find that they are more
>> hassle than they are worth.  First, I find that the only true
>> contacts you
>> can really make are either people you meet in person or people that
>> refer
>> you directly -- but most of these sites like "Linked In" are turning
>> into
>> everyone being friends with everyone and half the people I'm friends
>> with
>> are recruiters, or people I've never met before.  MOST of the
>> successful
>> job leads I get are from places like this list, or people contacting
>> me
>> directly on monster/dice, etc. which I only have active when I'm
>> looking.
>>
>> So what are your thoughts?  Do you find LinkedIn (and similar sites
>> like
>> Pulse) to be beneficial to your tech career, or too annoying to
>> manage and
>> think about?
>>
>> -Matt
>
> For what its worth, my current employer found me through LinkedIn.
> Another nice
> feature is that if you add all your former coworkers into your
> network, you'll usually
> have access to their most current and accurate contact information
> which comes in
> handy when a potential employer asks you for references.
>

Agreed.  I find it much easier to manage than a stack of business
cards.  I never could figure out the Rolodex.


From carton at Ivy.NET  Tue Oct 21 16:55:23 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:55:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
In-Reply-To: <3BA0ABEA-99F7-4EDB-BB87-55137DB6B3CA@lesmuug.org> (Isaac Levy's
	message of "Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:40:41 -0400")
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0810211516580.5644@foster.stonedcoder.org>
	<3BA0ABEA-99F7-4EDB-BB87-55137DB6B3CA@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <oqk5c1u0qs.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "il" == Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> writes:

    il> FINALLY someone in NY pulling something together...

these guys have done CTF's once or twice before at Brooklyn
Polytechnic with the aid of their Kraut collaborators.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081021/49eac03d/attachment.bin>

From spork at bway.net  Tue Oct 21 22:19:54 2008
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:19:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
In-Reply-To: <oqk5c1u0qs.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0810211516580.5644@foster.stonedcoder.org>
	<3BA0ABEA-99F7-4EDB-BB87-55137DB6B3CA@lesmuug.org>
	<oqk5c1u0qs.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810212219400.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Miles Nordin wrote:

>>>>>> "il" == Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> writes:
>
>    il> FINALLY someone in NY pulling something together...
>
> these guys have done CTF's once or twice before at Brooklyn
> Polytechnic with the aid of their Kraut collaborators.

OK, I give, what's a "CTF"?

C


From bschonhorst at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 22:57:51 2008
From: bschonhorst at gmail.com (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:57:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810212219400.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0810211516580.5644@foster.stonedcoder.org>
	<3BA0ABEA-99F7-4EDB-BB87-55137DB6B3CA@lesmuug.org>
	<oqk5c1u0qs.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<Pine.OSX.4.64.0810212219400.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <7708fd680810211957k2ead90bck412b9eabbfb088d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Miles Nordin wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "il" == Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> writes:
>>
>>    il> FINALLY someone in NY pulling something together...
>>
>> these guys have done CTF's once or twice before at Brooklyn
>> Polytechnic with the aid of their Kraut collaborators.
>
> OK, I give, what's a "CTF"?
>

Capture the Flag:
http://isis.poly.edu/csaw/ctf


From max at neuropunks.org  Wed Oct 22 00:19:59 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:19:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug]
Message-ID: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>

http://www.doxpara.com/?page_id=1256


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug
Date: 	Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:55:10 +0530
From: 	Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>
To: 	NANOG list <nanog at nanog.org>



For the "mailops is not operational" folks.. it involves parsing dns
txt records, so .. well, please grit your teeth and read on, this gets
interesting

Well, we discarded spf back in 2005 so we arent in any particular
danger, but for those few of y'all still deploying and checking spf ..
please upgrade asap.

srs

http://www.doxpara.com/?p=1263

I really need to learn to leave DNS alone :)

DNS TXT Record Parsing Bug in LibSPF2
A relatively common bug parsing TXT records delivered over DNS, dating
at least back to 2002 in Sendmail 8.2.0 and almost certainly much
earlier, has been found in LibSPF2, a library frequently used to
retrieve SPF (Sender Policy Framework) records and apply policy
according to those records.  This implementation flaw allows for
relatively flexible memory corruption, and should thus be treated as a
path to anonymous remote code execution.  Of particular note is that
the remote code execution would occur on servers specifically designed
to receive E-Mail from the Internet, and that these systems may in
fact be high volume mail exchangers.  This creates privacy
implications.  It is also the case that a corrupted email server is a
useful "jumping off" point for attackers to corrupt desktop machines,
since attachments can be corrupted with malware while the containing
message stays intact.  So there are internal security implications as
well, above and beyond corruption of the mail server on the DMZ.

Apparently LibSPF2 is actually used to secure quite a bit of mail
traffic ? there's a lot of SPAM out there.  Fix is out, see
http://www.libspf2.org/index.html or your friendly neighborhood
distro.  Thanks to Shevek, CERT (VU#183657), Ken Simpson of
MailChannels, Andre Engel, Scott Kitterman, and Hannah Schroeter for
their help with this.




From ahpook at verizon.net  Tue Oct 21 22:42:03 2008
From: ahpook at verizon.net (Ah Pook)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:42:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810212219400.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0810211516580.5644@foster.stonedcoder.org>
	<oqk5c1u0qs.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<Pine.OSX.4.64.0810212219400.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <200810212242.03421.ahpook@verizon.net>

On Tuesday 21 October 2008, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Miles Nordin wrote:
> >>>>>> "il" == Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> writes:
> >
> >    il> FINALLY someone in NY pulling something together...
> >
> > these guys have done CTF's once or twice before at Brooklyn
> > Polytechnic with the aid of their Kraut collaborators.
>
> OK, I give, what's a "CTF"?

Like http://chicken.planetquake.gamespy.com/shot2.html but with flags.


From spork at bway.net  Wed Oct 22 02:50:55 2008
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:50:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [NYCR:Microcontrollers] Re: CTF
In-Reply-To: <200810212242.03421.ahpook@verizon.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0810211516580.5644@foster.stonedcoder.org>
	<oqk5c1u0qs.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<Pine.OSX.4.64.0810212219400.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<200810212242.03421.ahpook@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810220249010.4630@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Ah Pook wrote:

> On Tuesday 21 October 2008, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>>
>> OK, I give, what's a "CTF"?
>
> Like http://chicken.planetquake.gamespy.com/shot2.html but with flags.

A tangent, but the last game I spent any time with was probably Donkey 
Kong Jr.

The screenshots for this bizarre quake mod(?) intrigue me though. :)

C

> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From robin.polak at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 10:42:05 2008
From: robin.polak at gmail.com (Robin Polak)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:42:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug]
In-Reply-To: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>
References: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <551868240810220742h6f2658e2x66c4876e6b7afd89@mail.gmail.com>

This may explain why my milter-greylist /w libspf plugin to sendmail
occasionally decides to kill without any log entries or errors on
console.  In all reality is it worth at all checking SPF records at
this point or is it more of a liability.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 00:19, Max Gribov <max at neuropunks.org> wrote:
> http://www.doxpara.com/?page_id=1256
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject:        Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug
> Date:   Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:55:10 +0530
> From:   Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>
> To:     NANOG list <nanog at nanog.org>
>
>
>
> For the "mailops is not operational" folks.. it involves parsing dns
> txt records, so .. well, please grit your teeth and read on, this gets
> interesting
>
> Well, we discarded spf back in 2005 so we arent in any particular
> danger, but for those few of y'all still deploying and checking spf ..
> please upgrade asap.
>
> srs
>
> http://www.doxpara.com/?p=1263
>
> I really need to learn to leave DNS alone :)
>
> DNS TXT Record Parsing Bug in LibSPF2
> A relatively common bug parsing TXT records delivered over DNS, dating
> at least back to 2002 in Sendmail 8.2.0 and almost certainly much
> earlier, has been found in LibSPF2, a library frequently used to
> retrieve SPF (Sender Policy Framework) records and apply policy
> according to those records.  This implementation flaw allows for
> relatively flexible memory corruption, and should thus be treated as a
> path to anonymous remote code execution.  Of particular note is that
> the remote code execution would occur on servers specifically designed
> to receive E-Mail from the Internet, and that these systems may in
> fact be high volume mail exchangers.  This creates privacy
> implications.  It is also the case that a corrupted email server is a
> useful "jumping off" point for attackers to corrupt desktop machines,
> since attachments can be corrupted with malware while the containing
> message stays intact.  So there are internal security implications as
> well, above and beyond corruption of the mail server on the DMZ.
>
> Apparently LibSPF2 is actually used to secure quite a bit of mail
> traffic ? there's a lot of SPAM out there.  Fix is out, see
> http://www.libspf2.org/index.html or your friendly neighborhood
> distro.  Thanks to Shevek, CERT (VU#183657), Ken Simpson of
> MailChannels, Andre Engel, Scott Kitterman, and Hannah Schroeter for
> their help with this.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Robin Polak
E-Mail: robin.polak at gmail.com
V. 917-494-2080


From robin.polak at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 10:37:37 2008
From: robin.polak at gmail.com (Robin Polak)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:37:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <7708fd680810211242o7f3e7f48q8eb0f840083407d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<C4A3B5C8-E1FF-49D9-B5E1-C3769644371F@exit2shell.com>
	<7708fd680810211242o7f3e7f48q8eb0f840083407d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <551868240810220737r2aa5a36yf04e2615d5247ef9@mail.gmail.com>

I agree.  Linkedin is a great place to keep track of your business
contacts.  And it is up to your discretion whom you allow to be
connected to you.  For instance when I receive  requests I ensure that
I know the person from some place or another in real life.  In
addition it's another good way to keep in touch with people from your
past.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 15:42, Brad Schonhorst <bschonhorst at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Steven Kreuzer <skreuzer at exit2shell.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:
>>
>>> Slightly off topic, but here goes:
>>>
>>> I'm on a lot of "Social Networking Sites".  I find that they are more
>>> hassle than they are worth.  First, I find that the only true
>>> contacts you
>>> can really make are either people you meet in person or people that
>>> refer
>>> you directly -- but most of these sites like "Linked In" are turning
>>> into
>>> everyone being friends with everyone and half the people I'm friends
>>> with
>>> are recruiters, or people I've never met before.  MOST of the
>>> successful
>>> job leads I get are from places like this list, or people contacting
>>> me
>>> directly on monster/dice, etc. which I only have active when I'm
>>> looking.
>>>
>>> So what are your thoughts?  Do you find LinkedIn (and similar sites
>>> like
>>> Pulse) to be beneficial to your tech career, or too annoying to
>>> manage and
>>> think about?
>>>
>>> -Matt
>>
>> For what its worth, my current employer found me through LinkedIn.
>> Another nice
>> feature is that if you add all your former coworkers into your
>> network, you'll usually
>> have access to their most current and accurate contact information
>> which comes in
>> handy when a potential employer asks you for references.
>>
>
> Agreed.  I find it much easier to manage than a stack of business
> cards.  I never could figure out the Rolodex.
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Robin Polak
E-Mail: robin.polak at gmail.com
V. 917-494-2080


From carton at Ivy.NET  Wed Oct 22 13:54:44 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:54:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net> (Matt Juszczak's
	message of "Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:00:34 -0400 (EDT)")
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "mj" == Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> writes:

    mj> LinkedIn [...] beneficial to your tech career,

I find this type of work too degrading to associate that intimately
with my personal identity.  

Secondly I find it violating that someone would EXPECT to see a
conveniently-formatted list of all the other people I know.  Police
and stalkers drool over such information, and that's the big part of
why we don't like the kind of attention either gives us, and if it's a
person judging me rather than merely a fan I feel doubly violated.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081022/134c1d8d/attachment.bin>

From matt at atopia.net  Wed Oct 22 14:01:55 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <20081022140151.B78558@mercury.atopia.net>

So I take it you don't use LinkedIn?

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Miles Nordin wrote:

>>>>>> "mj" == Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> writes:
>
>    mj> LinkedIn [...] beneficial to your tech career,
>
> I find this type of work too degrading to associate that intimately
> with my personal identity.
>
> Secondly I find it violating that someone would EXPECT to see a
> conveniently-formatted list of all the other people I know.  Police
> and stalkers drool over such information, and that's the big part of
> why we don't like the kind of attention either gives us, and if it's a
> person judging me rather than merely a fan I feel doubly violated.
>


From max at neuropunks.org  Wed Oct 22 14:07:15 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:07:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug]
In-Reply-To: <551868240810220742h6f2658e2x66c4876e6b7afd89@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>
	<551868240810220742h6f2658e2x66c4876e6b7afd89@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48FF6BD3.4040806@neuropunks.org>

well, I use it, and hotmail/ms seem to like it - they do have their own 
implementation called sender-id
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/content/technologies/senderid/wizard/

spf requires everyone to use it to be effective, and from running a mail 
server for a while, they only thing that really made a difference in 
spam for me was greylisting - quickly looking through logs, i dont see 
any rejections based on spf

i still use it because it *may* prevent that 1% (arbitrary number alert) 
of spam, and gives me slightly better "reputation" with 
hotmail/live.com/msn



Robin Polak wrote:

 > This may explain why my milter-greylist /w libspf plugin to sendmail
> occasionally decides to kill without any log entries or errors on
> console.  In all reality is it worth at all checking SPF records at
> this point or is it more of a liability.
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 00:19, Max Gribov <max at neuropunks.org> wrote:
>   
>> http://www.doxpara.com/?page_id=1256
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject:        Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug
>> Date:   Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:55:10 +0530
>> From:   Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>
>> To:     NANOG list <nanog at nanog.org>
>>
>>
>>
>> For the "mailops is not operational" folks.. it involves parsing dns
>> txt records, so .. well, please grit your teeth and read on, this gets
>> interesting
>>
>> Well, we discarded spf back in 2005 so we arent in any particular
>> danger, but for those few of y'all still deploying and checking spf ..
>> please upgrade asap.
>>
>> srs
>>
>> http://www.doxpara.com/?p=1263
>>
>> I really need to learn to leave DNS alone :)
>>
>> DNS TXT Record Parsing Bug in LibSPF2
>> A relatively common bug parsing TXT records delivered over DNS, dating
>> at least back to 2002 in Sendmail 8.2.0 and almost certainly much
>> earlier, has been found in LibSPF2, a library frequently used to
>> retrieve SPF (Sender Policy Framework) records and apply policy
>> according to those records.  This implementation flaw allows for
>> relatively flexible memory corruption, and should thus be treated as a
>> path to anonymous remote code execution.  Of particular note is that
>> the remote code execution would occur on servers specifically designed
>> to receive E-Mail from the Internet, and that these systems may in
>> fact be high volume mail exchangers.  This creates privacy
>> implications.  It is also the case that a corrupted email server is a
>> useful "jumping off" point for attackers to corrupt desktop machines,
>> since attachments can be corrupted with malware while the containing
>> message stays intact.  So there are internal security implications as
>> well, above and beyond corruption of the mail server on the DMZ.
>>
>> Apparently LibSPF2 is actually used to secure quite a bit of mail
>> traffic ? there's a lot of SPAM out there.  Fix is out, see
>> http://www.libspf2.org/index.html or your friendly neighborhood
>> distro.  Thanks to Shevek, CERT (VU#183657), Ken Simpson of
>> MailChannels, Andre Engel, Scott Kitterman, and Hannah Schroeter for
>> their help with this.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   



From carton at Ivy.NET  Wed Oct 22 16:16:59 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:16:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <20081022140151.B78558@mercury.atopia.net> (Matt Juszczak's
	message of "Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:01:55 -0400 (EDT)")
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<20081022140151.B78558@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <oqr668s7us.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "mj" == Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> writes:

    mj> you don't use LinkedIn?

correct.

but there is a jab behind your question, a jab I may be imagining,
which is revealing.  If I do use LinkedIn, I'm not allowed to complain
about it, right?

The question was ``do you find it helpful to your career,'' so if the
answer is yes, then not doing it will hurt your career.  One thing
that makes not using it hurt your career even more than it would by
merely failing-to-help is, if everyone else does it, then it becomes
expected.

If this happens, and I relent, comply, join, then NOW I've not only
been ramrodded into using the fucking thing over my supposed ``opt
out'' objection, but I'm not allowed to complain about it because now
I'm a ``hypocrite.''

No, fuck that whole idealogy.  Fuck off and go straight to hell with
it.  (though I may be imagining it---pre-emptively, if you or anyone
meant that, well fuck off.  I will not ``pull your finger.''  And I
will not appologize for saying the opposite of everyone else and
saying it emphatically---it's what I motherfucking believe.)
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081022/3b3eae2c/attachment.bin>

From matt at atopia.net  Wed Oct 22 16:23:18 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:23:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <oqr668s7us.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<20081022140151.B78558@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oqr668s7us.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <20081022162254.N90711@mercury.atopia.net>

> but there is a jab behind your question, a jab I may be imagining,
> which is revealing.  If I do use LinkedIn, I'm not allowed to complain
> about it, right?

There is no jab.  It was imagined.  I'm simply asking whether people use 
it or not.

-MJ



From carton at Ivy.NET  Wed Oct 22 16:26:02 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:26:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <20081022162254.N90711@mercury.atopia.net> (Matt Juszczak's
	message of "Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:23:18 -0400 (EDT)")
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<20081022140151.B78558@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oqr668s7us.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<20081022162254.N90711@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <oqljwgs7fp.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "mj" == Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> writes:

    mj> no jab.

sry.  i overused irc a few years ago.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081022/af421a27/attachment.bin>

From ike at lesmuug.org  Wed Oct 22 16:37:52 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:37:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] LinkedIn: Worth it or not?
In-Reply-To: <oqljwgs7fp.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <20081021135558.P63279@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oq3aiott0b.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<20081022140151.B78558@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oqr668s7us.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<20081022162254.N90711@mercury.atopia.net>
	<oqljwgs7fp.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <FE9DFA74-E315-4641-A9B7-E53722340492@lesmuug.org>

On Oct 22, 2008, at 4:26 PM, Miles Nordin wrote:

>>>>>> "mj" == Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> writes:
>
>    mj> no jab.
>
> sry.  i overused irc a few years ago.

IRC but no Linkedin?  ;)

No seriously- I don't think anyone means to jab around here- and  
strong opinions are always welcome, of course.

Rocket-
.ike




From akosela at andykosela.com  Thu Oct 23 02:34:14 2008
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:34:14 +0200
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug]
In-Reply-To: <48FF6BD3.4040806@neuropunks.org>
References: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>
	<551868240810220742h6f2658e2x66c4876e6b7afd89@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FF6BD3.4040806@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80810222334t471fe364g63cb23c93c03c208@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Max Gribov <max at neuropunks.org> wrote:
> well, I use it, and hotmail/ms seem to like it - they do have their own
> implementation called sender-id
> http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.mspx
> http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/content/technologies/senderid/wizard/
>
> spf requires everyone to use it to be effective, and from running a mail
> server for a while, they only thing that really made a difference in
> spam for me was greylisting - quickly looking through logs, i dont see
> any rejections based on spf
>
> i still use it because it *may* prevent that 1% (arbitrary number alert)
> of spam, and gives me slightly better "reputation" with
> hotmail/live.com/msn

On the contrary I use it because it blocks quite a bit of our SPAM
traffic. I know SPF is flawed from the very beginning but I had to
turn off greylisting just because it was generating too many blocked
messages (not all mail servers out there are intelligent enough to
handle it properly).

Oct 23 01:59:35 aegis postfix/policy-spf[67264]: : SPF fail:
smtp_comment=Please see
http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=x%x&ip=x.x.x.x&receiver=x,
header_comment=x: domain of x does not designate x.x.x.x as permitted
sender

-- 
Andy Kosela
ora et labora


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 23 14:09:59 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:09:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
Message-ID: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>

Hi all,

I was just wondering what Spam Filters people use.  I was using dspam with 
training, but that was getting quite annoying to train, so I switched to 
out of box SpamAssassin, which marks way too many hams as spam and 
doesn't catch enough of the spams.

Can anyone recommend a solution that works for them?

-Matt


From marco at metm.org  Thu Oct 23 14:17:03 2008
From: marco at metm.org (marco scoffier)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:17:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4900BF9F.6070603@metm.org>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> I was just wondering what Spam Filters people use.  I was using dspam with 
> training, but that was getting quite annoying to train, so I switched to 
> out of box SpamAssassin, which marks way too many hams as spam and 
> doesn't catch enough of the spams.
>
> Can anyone recommend a solution that works for them?
>   
don't bother with filters, just use greylisting.  or filter behind the 
greylisting

I use (openbsd)spamd and pf on freebsd.
postfix's greylisting feature also seems quite popular.

-- 
Marco


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 23 14:24:15 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:24:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <4900BF9F.6070603@metm.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<4900BF9F.6070603@metm.org>
Message-ID: <20081023142325.U6048@mercury.atopia.net>

> I use (openbsd)spamd and pf on freebsd.
> postfix's greylisting feature also seems quite popular.

spamd and pf are heuristical or statistical?  Also, you just use 
graylisting personally, or other technologies behind that?


From thomas at zaph.org  Thu Oct 23 14:24:14 2008
From: thomas at zaph.org (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:24:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org>

* Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> [2008-10-23 14:09:59+0000]:
> I was just wondering what Spam Filters people use.  I was using dspam
> with training, but that was getting quite annoying to train

Most sysadmins I know that use Postfix as their MTA say that greylisting
(IIRC they mostly all use postgrey) cuts something like 60-95% of the
spam they get -- the number varies depending on who you talk to, but
they are all unanimous in saying that it cuts a significant percent of
their spam.

The ones I know that don't use it only do so because they can't afford
the lag -- a lot of people expect email to be more or less
instantaneous. This would largely depend on your users however.

> so I switched to out of box SpamAssassin, which marks way too many
> hams as spam and doesn't catch enough of the spams.

Are you using a recent version? SA rarely flags ham as spam for me.

Thomas


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 23 14:26:20 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:26:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <20081023142527.C7323@mercury.atopia.net>

> Are you using a recent version? SA rarely flags ham as spam for me.

Yes.  It's flagging lots of my ING Direct mails as Spam.  Though they are 
scored at around 5.5 or 6, and SpamAssassin's default is 5.0.  I could 
raise to 6.0, but lots of spam gets marked at 5.x, so it would increase 
Spam.


From thomas at zaph.org  Thu Oct 23 14:32:55 2008
From: thomas at zaph.org (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:32:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023142527.C7323@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <20081023183255.GU6891@zaph.org>

* Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> [2008-10-23 14:26:20+0000]:
> > Are you using a recent version? SA rarely flags ham as spam for me.
> 
> Yes. It's flagging lots of my ING Direct mails as Spam.

If it's happening to only one or a few organizations that send you mail,
it might be worthwhile to craft some negative-scoring SA rules and add
it to your ~/.spamassassin/user_prefs.

e.g. Anything coming in with "ING Direct" in the Subject line or
envelope header would get -1 added to their score.

I'm assuming here that you are using sa-learn --ham on these messages to
train your Bayesian filters as well.

Thomas


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 23 14:34:52 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:34:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023183144.GT6891@zaph.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org>
	<20081023142527.C7323@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023183144.GT6891@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <20081023143426.F12644@mercury.atopia.net>

> I'm assuming here that you are using sa-learn --ham on these messages to
> train your Bayesian filters as well.

eh? :) Didn't know spamassassin supported statistical training :)


From dan at langille.org  Thu Oct 23 14:35:48 2008
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:35:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>


On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was just wondering what Spam Filters people use.  I was using  
> dspam with
> training, but that was getting quite annoying to train, so I  
> switched to
> out of box SpamAssassin, which marks way too many hams as spam and
> doesn't catch enough of the spams.
>
> Can anyone recommend a solution that works for them?


PF and spamd in front of the MTA to do greylisting.

clam-av and amavis working with the MTA.

-- 
Dan Langille
http://langille.org/






From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 23 14:43:33 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:43:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>
Message-ID: <20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>

> PF and spamd in front of the MTA to do greylisting.

Is PF postfix, or some other technology?


From thomas at zaph.org  Thu Oct 23 14:43:44 2008
From: thomas at zaph.org (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:43:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] greylisting (was OT: Spam Filters)
In-Reply-To: <20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <20081023184344.GV6891@zaph.org>

* N.J. Thomas <thomas at zaph.org> [2008-10-23 14:24:14+0000]:
> Most sysadmins I know that use Postfix as their MTA say that
> greylisting (IIRC they mostly all use postgrey) cuts something like
> 60-95% of the spam they get

This reminds me of when greylisting first came out (ca. 2003 I believe),
a lot of people -- myself included -- figured that spammers would adapt
to it fairly quickly.

I figured we had about a year or two before spammers would just rewrite
their software to handle it. I'm *really* surprised to see this
spam-reduction technique still catching as much as it does today.

Wonder why this is.

My theory (that I can't back up in any way) is that either the people
sending the spam haven't updated their spam-mailing software to the
latest version or that spammers don't want to waste their time with the
small percentage of people who greylist when a larger share of folks
don't use it.

Thomas


From thomas at zaph.org  Thu Oct 23 14:45:03 2008
From: thomas at zaph.org (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:45:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>
	<20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <20081023184503.GW6891@zaph.org>

* Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> [2008-10-23 14:43:33+0000]:
> > PF and spamd in front of the MTA to do greylisting.
> 
> Is PF postfix, or some other technology?

spamd works in tandem with pf (OpenBSD's packet filter) to do
greylisting, among other things.

Thomas


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Oct 23 14:48:30 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:48:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023184503.GW6891@zaph.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>
	<20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023184503.GW6891@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <20081023144753.B25886@mercury.atopia.net>

> spamd works in tandem with pf (OpenBSD's packet filter) to do
> greylisting, among other things.

OK, so this pf is the same as the pf in FreeBSD >= 5.x - so I ASSUME I 
can use spamd with that pf as well.  I'll investigate.  Thanks!


From nycbug at cyth.net  Thu Oct 23 14:58:30 2008
From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:58:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] greylisting (was OT: Spam Filters)
In-Reply-To: <20081023184344.GV6891@zaph.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023182414.GS6891@zaph.org> <20081023184344.GV6891@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <7765c0380810231158l18bb3219j3a78e4f1ef38666f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 2:43 PM, N.J. Thomas <thomas at zaph.org> wrote:
> * N.J. Thomas <thomas at zaph.org> [2008-10-23 14:24:14+0000]:
>> Most sysadmins I know that use Postfix as their MTA say that
>> greylisting (IIRC they mostly all use postgrey) cuts something like
>> 60-95% of the spam they get
>
> This reminds me of when greylisting first came out (ca. 2003 I believe),
> a lot of people -- myself included -- figured that spammers would adapt
> to it fairly quickly.
>
> I figured we had about a year or two before spammers would just rewrite
> their software to handle it. I'm *really* surprised to see this
> spam-reduction technique still catching as much as it does today.
>
> Wonder why this is.
>
> My theory (that I can't back up in any way) is that either the people
> sending the spam haven't updated their spam-mailing software to the
> latest version or that spammers don't want to waste their time with the
> small percentage of people who greylist when a larger share of folks
> don't use it.

Well, you can no longer just fire-and-forget, you actually have to
find a way to create a window open by sending the same message to a
host several times. The dumb way of doing this would be to have an
actual queue and store up all the messages that were greylisted. Of
course, several million messages takes up a lot of space. There are
probably smart ways to circumvent greylisting, but I'd rather not
discuss them on a public mailing list. =)

-Ray-


From dan at langille.org  Thu Oct 23 16:21:32 2008
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:21:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>
	<20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <DD5CFDEF-BDF9-46CC-B18E-1EB619B6B89C@langille.org>


On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:43 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> PF and spamd in front of the MTA to do greylisting.
>
> Is PF postfix, or some other technology?

pf is OpenBSD's packet filter.  Great tool.  It can be used to
invoke grey listing.

I wrote up what I did:  http://www.freebsddiary.org/pf.php

-- 
Dan Langille
http://langille.org/






From carton at Ivy.NET  Thu Oct 23 17:21:51 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:21:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023184503.GW6891@zaph.org> (N.J. Thomas's message of "Thu,
	23 Oct 2008 14:45:03 -0400")
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>
	<20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081023184503.GW6891@zaph.org>
Message-ID: <oqvdvjqa6o.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "njt" == N J Thomas <thomas at zaph.org> writes:

   njt> spamd works in tandem with pf (OpenBSD's packet filter) to do
   njt> greylisting, among other things.

the ``other things'' have caused problems for me.  My friend was using
some bogus blacklist, spews i think, and blocking my mail, which is
one of the normal things mail admins need to track down and fix.  It
was hard to do this because instead of returning a proper error as
RFC's demand and many other spam avoidance mechanisms including
greylisting do, the OpenBSD spy-vs-spy attitude throws you in this
``tar pit'' where you are connected to spamd instead of the MTA.
spamd exists only to fuck with you, and is not concerned with reality
nor standards.  The false positives with this setup waste more
sysadmin time than more traditional spam setups I know about,
traditional because they return clear RFC-compliant errors saying,
with varying levels of attitude but all including the key information,
``you were blocked by the MTA at <this> domain because you are on
<this> blacklist, see <this> URL to get off it.''  OpenBSD's failure
to do this makes it a bad neighbor.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081023/ff8de059/attachment.bin>

From sdabhi at midhudson.org  Thu Oct 23 17:25:33 2008
From: sdabhi at midhudson.org (Sanjay Dabhi)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:25:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <DD5CFDEF-BDF9-46CC-B18E-1EB619B6B89C@langille.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>	<DE84D92D-DEA9-49C1-8FAA-79C4A1B3E793@langille.org>	<20081023144320.G22522@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DD5CFDEF-BDF9-46CC-B18E-1EB619B6B89C@langille.org>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANWjFdtCnfVMikbGk7QismHCgAAAEAAAAJCJodyyGU9CqzSEtUNWAiYBAAAAAA==@midhudson.org>

Starting in September 2008, Barracuda Networks introduced the Barracuda
Reputation Block List
The BRBL is open to public and can be used within reason. Barracuda Networks
is currently making this service available free of charge.

Try this out, 

http://www.barracudacentral.org/rbl


Sanjay 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org]
On Behalf Of Dan Langille
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 4:22 PM
To: Matt Juszczak
Cc: talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters


On Oct 23, 2008, at 2:43 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> PF and spamd in front of the MTA to do greylisting.
>
> Is PF postfix, or some other technology?

pf is OpenBSD's packet filter.  Great tool.  It can be used to
invoke grey listing.

I wrote up what I did:  http://www.freebsddiary.org/pf.php

-- 
Dan Langille
http://langille.org/




_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From max at neuropunks.org  Thu Oct 23 20:43:59 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:43:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <49011A4F.6070603@neuropunks.org>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was just wondering what Spam Filters people use.  I was using dspam with 
>   
Hi Matt,
I find spamassassin to be really good (recent versions being way better 
than say 3 years ago), and i also use custom tweaked scores from several 
block lists, for example (local.cf):
header __RCVD_IN_FIVETENSRC       eval:check_rbl('blackholes', 
'blackholes.five-ten-sg.com.')
describe __RCVD_IN_FIVETENSRC     Received via a relay in Five Ten block 
list
tflags __RCVD_IN_FIVETENSRC       net
score RCVD_IN_FIVETENSRC         0.5

and so on. You can find plenty of dns based block lists out there - of 
course there is some crap factor, hence the score adjustment.
(ping me offlist if you want me to send my configs - they're kinda long)

i used to train spamassassin but it didnt seem to make any difference..

pf/spamd is a pretty cool way, Marco has a good implementation up

I also use greylisting, SPF and DK with postfix - dk and spf mostly to 
identify my domains as ham.
Greylisting comes from /usr/ports/mail/postfix-policyd-sf
SPF comes bundled with postfix 
(/usr/local/libexec/postfix/postfix-policyd-spf.pl) although you can use 
policyd-spf from ports as well
DK is /usr/ports/mail/dk-milter
DKIM is supposed to be cooler - but im too hazy on the differences, and 
for some reason i decided to stick with DK

Postfix itself has plenty of restrictions, which cut down on invalid 
helo/hostnames/etc, like so:

policy-grey_time_limit = 600
disable_vrfy_command = yes
smtpd_reject_unlisted_sender = yes
smtpd_reject_unlisted_recipient = yes
smtpd_helo_required = yes
smtpd_client_restrictions = hash:/usr/local/etc/postfix/access, 
permit_mynetworks, permit_sasl_authenticated, reject_invalid_hostname, 
reject_non_fqdn_sender, reject_unauth_destination
smtpd_sender_restrictions = permit_mynetworks, 
permit_sasl_authenticated, reject_unlisted_sender, 
reject_invalid_hostname, reject_non_fqdn_sender, 
reject_unauth_destination, check_policy_service unix:private/policy-spf
smtpd_recipient_restrictions = hash:/usr/local/etc/postfix/access, 
permit_mynetworks, permit_sasl_authenticated, reject_unauth_destination, 
reject_invalid_hostname, reject_non_fqdn_sender, 
reject_unlisted_recipient, reject_unverified_recipient, 
check_policy_service inet:69.31.43.10:10031


I also think thunderbird's junkmail controls are pretty good, so really, 
combining all of it, i get may be 1 spam a week in my inbox, and may be 
1 every 2/3 weeks false positive

hope this helps

> training, but that was getting quite annoying to train, so I switched to 
> out of box SpamAssassin, which marks way too many hams as spam and 
> doesn't catch enough of the spams.
>
> Can anyone recommend a solution that works for them?
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>   



From ahpook at verizon.net  Thu Oct 23 19:41:29 2008
From: ahpook at verizon.net (Ah Pook)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:41:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Spam Filters
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANWjFdtCnfVMikbGk7QismHCgAAAEAAAAJCJodyyGU9CqzSEtUNWAiYBAAAAAA==@midhudson.org>
References: <20081023140856.P93587@mercury.atopia.net>
	<DD5CFDEF-BDF9-46CC-B18E-1EB619B6B89C@langille.org>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANWjFdtCnfVMikbGk7QismHCgAAAEAAAAJCJodyyGU9CqzSEtUNWAiYBAAAAAA==@midhudson.org>
Message-ID: <200810231941.29853.ahpook@verizon.net>

On Thursday 23 October 2008, Sanjay Dabhi wrote:
> Starting in September 2008, Barracuda Networks introduced the
> Barracuda Reputation Block List
> The BRBL is open to public and can be used within reason. Barracuda
> Networks is currently making this service available free of charge.

Barracuda's idiotic.  Their false positive rate is worse than Yahoo's.


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Oct 24 11:59:55 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:59:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
Message-ID: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>

It looks like the February meeting with be Victor Duchovni on Postfix. . .

He's a pretty well-known developer in the Postfix world, and specializes 
in performance monitoring and TLS.  He also maintains a very large 
Postfix infrastructure.

He could do a specific meeting on a variety of Postfix topics, but I 
would guess that something on performance monitoring and the recent 
overhauls of the Postfix qmgr (queue manager) would make the most sense.

We discussed him preparing a short presentation that opens up the door 
to questions and discussion.

On that note, what would people be interested in hearing him cover?

George


From thomas at zaph.org  Fri Oct 24 12:22:18 2008
From: thomas at zaph.org (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:22:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
Message-ID: <20081024162218.GJ17807@zaph.org>

* George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> [2008-10-24 11:59:55+0000]:
> It looks like the February meeting with be Victor Duchovni on Postfix

Awesome. He's been a great help on the Postfix lists.

> On that note, what would people be interested in hearing him cover?

Stuff I'd like to hear:

    - handling spam
    - best practices for very large scale Postfix installs
      (5+ digit userbase)
    - new/cool dev stuff coming to Postfix

Thomas


From max at neuropunks.org  Fri Oct 24 14:11:26 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:11:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug]
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80810222334t471fe364g63cb23c93c03c208@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>	
	<551868240810220742h6f2658e2x66c4876e6b7afd89@mail.gmail.com>	
	<48FF6BD3.4040806@neuropunks.org>
	<3cc535c80810222334t471fe364g63cb23c93c03c208@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49020FCE.70603@neuropunks.org>

Andy Kosela wrote:
>
> On the contrary I use it because it blocks quite a bit of our SPAM
> traffic. I know SPF is flawed from the very beginning but I had to
>   
you're right, i take back what ive said about spf:
[last 24 hours]
[root at finn /home/max]# grep -i spf /var/log/maillog|grep REJECT|wc -l
      60

for some reason i had spf turned off in postfix, this thread made me 
check, and sure enough, im an imbecile : )



> turn off greylisting just because it was generating too many blocked
> messages (not all mail servers out there are intelligent enough to
> handle it properly).
>
> Oct 23 01:59:35 aegis postfix/policy-spf[67264]: : SPF fail:
> smtp_comment=Please see
> http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=x%x&ip=x.x.x.x&receiver=x,
> header_comment=x: domain of x does not designate x.x.x.x as permitted
> sender
>
>   



From carton at Ivy.NET  Fri Oct 24 14:59:40 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:59:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
In-Reply-To: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com> (George Rosamond's
	message of "Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:59:55 -0400")
References: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <oqljwdrf8j.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "gr" == George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> writes:

    gr> performance monitoring and the recent overhauls of the Postfix
    gr> qmgr (queue manager)

FWIW that's exactly what I'd like to hear him talk about.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081024/f1a507a6/attachment.bin>

From robin.polak at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 12:07:27 2008
From: robin.polak at gmail.com (Robin Polak)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:07:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
In-Reply-To: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <551868240810240907v6e42b0b7l39f110f3d16f1126@mail.gmail.com>

I would certainly be interested in hearing about how Postfix handles
SPAM and user validation.

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:59, George Rosamond
<george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
> It looks like the February meeting with be Victor Duchovni on Postfix. . .
>
> He's a pretty well-known developer in the Postfix world, and specializes
> in performance monitoring and TLS.  He also maintains a very large
> Postfix infrastructure.
>
> He could do a specific meeting on a variety of Postfix topics, but I
> would guess that something on performance monitoring and the recent
> overhauls of the Postfix qmgr (queue manager) would make the most sense.
>
> We discussed him preparing a short presentation that opens up the door
> to questions and discussion.
>
> On that note, what would people be interested in hearing him cover?
>
> George
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Robin Polak
E-Mail: robin.polak at gmail.com
V. 917-494-2080


From carton at Ivy.NET  Fri Oct 24 16:31:30 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:31:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
In-Reply-To: <551868240810240907v6e42b0b7l39f110f3d16f1126@mail.gmail.com>
	(Robin Polak's message of "Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:07:27 -0400")
References: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<551868240810240907v6e42b0b7l39f110f3d16f1126@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqej25razh.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "rp" == Robin Polak <robin.polak at gmail.com> writes:

    rp> how Postfix handles SPAM

Well, it doesn't, a bunch of add-on widgets and doo-hickeys do this,
and in general each of them can be combined with Postfix, qmail, or
big honkin' messes like Zimbra or Scalix or Sun
JMS/IMTA/iPlanet/One/whateverthefuckitscalledthisweek so it's not
really postfix-related.

The spam stuff built into postfix is a bunch of standards-compliance
checks that Max dumped in an earlier message which are not very
interesting and are described in non-Postfix-specific terms here:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_techniques_(e-mail)#Enforcing_RFC_standards

The interesting part in spam fighting is elsewhere, the filters like
crm114/dspam/spamassassin, and filter autotraining by users who
manually move their messages into or out of a spam folder or forward
them to some magic address.  The other thing that interests me is
collecting rrdtool statistics about spam to numerically compare
filtering methods by accuracy and CPU efficiency---to do that, I'd
like a way to operate a filter without using its decisions so I could
compare it to other filters and see if it's generating false
positives.  I haven't heard of stuff like this---``How much of the
spam I'm currently rejecting is also rejected by this much cheaper
filter?'' and ``how much more mail would I be rejecting if I used this
filter, and can I have a look at the new rejects?''  I doubt this
speaker knows about such things since the topic spreads far out from
Postfix.

A way of relating spam to postfix and queueing strategies would be to
talk about clustering---how do you run backscatter-proof spam scanning
for a domain with enough traffic that the spam scanning is too CPU
intensive for one host to handle?  What variables determine how big
the cluster needs to be, and is it always CPU-bound or is it
disk-bound sometimes?  Postfix has a lot of clustering stuff built in
but there are probably non-obvious things.  Obviously you need a list
of valid usernames in LDAP which can be pushed out to the edge, or
else mail sent to invalid usernames will turn into backscatter.  And
you may have per-user spam preferences as well like whitelists, or
likes-spam flags, or a spammyness-level knobs, or
please-dont-delete-viruses-i'm-researching-them, that need to be
replicated on all the spam-filter nodes.  But less obvious the
greylisting database probably has to be shared with LDAP or SQL or or
else the whole idea of greylisting won't work any more.  Are there
other tiny secret things which need to be replicated cluster-wide?

But I think a spam meeting will quickly degenerate into a raucous
bikeshed discussion, which is arguably what meetings are best for but
in this case it might be a waste of the speaker's famousness.  I've
not much interest in a generalist meeting like the extremely tiresome
Asterisk meeting at Unigroup which could be replaced by one URL
linking to a blog post.  On like five occasions there were two-minute
digressions about ``where the links would be posted,'' and I wanted to
scream.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081024/e2e19d97/attachment.bin>

From max at neuropunks.org  Fri Oct 24 17:30:50 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:30:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Kaminsky redux - libspf2 dns parsing bug]
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80810222334t471fe364g63cb23c93c03c208@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48FEA9EF.3090907@neuropunks.org>	
	<551868240810220742h6f2658e2x66c4876e6b7afd89@mail.gmail.com>	
	<48FF6BD3.4040806@neuropunks.org>
	<3cc535c80810222334t471fe364g63cb23c93c03c208@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49023E8A.2000009@neuropunks.org>

Andy Kosela wrote:
> On the contrary I use it because it blocks quite a bit of our SPAM
i got inspired by this and Miles' replies, and hacked postfix's 
mailgraph.pl to also graph spf rejects as part of its "virus" report.

Mine looks like this: http://www.neuropunks.org/mailstat/mailgraph.cgi
theres not alot of data, but you get an idea of ratio between things 
tagged as spam by spamassassin and things outright rejected by spf

i made a tarball of the hack at 
http://www.neuropunks.org/mailgraph-postfix-spf.tar.gz

it took me less than an hour, mailgraph.pl is pretty easy to read/hack, 
so other things can be stuck into its process_line() sub and rrd generator
something i realized after half hour of headbanging - you have to change 
mailgraph.cgi to reflect your changes to the main file..

boredom rawks


> traffic. I know SPF is flawed from the very beginning but I had to
> turn off greylisting just because it was generating too many blocked
> messages (not all mail servers out there are intelligent enough to
> handle it properly).
>
> Oct 23 01:59:35 aegis postfix/policy-spf[67264]: : SPF fail:
> smtp_comment=Please see
> http://www.openspf.org/why.html?sender=x%x&ip=x.x.x.x&receiver=x,
> header_comment=x: domain of x does not designate x.x.x.x as permitted
> sender
>
>   



From dan at radiusim.com  Fri Oct 24 15:42:18 2008
From: dan at radiusim.com (Dan Colish)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:42:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
In-Reply-To: <551868240810240907v6e42b0b7l39f110f3d16f1126@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<551868240810240907v6e42b0b7l39f110f3d16f1126@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e24aad180810241242k6f19c924ge8e8ef4a9a55bb80@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Robin Polak <robin.polak at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would certainly be interested in hearing about how Postfix handles
> SPAM and user validation.
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:59, George Rosamond
> <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
> > It looks like the February meeting with be Victor Duchovni on Postfix. .
> .
> >
> > He's a pretty well-known developer in the Postfix world, and specializes
> > in performance monitoring and TLS.  He also maintains a very large
> > Postfix infrastructure.
> >
> > He could do a specific meeting on a variety of Postfix topics, but I
> > would guess that something on performance monitoring and the recent
> > overhauls of the Postfix qmgr (queue manager) would make the most sense.
> >
> > We discussed him preparing a short presentation that opens up the door
> > to questions and discussion.
> >
> > On that note, what would people be interested in hearing him cover?
> >
> > George
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Robin Polak
> E-Mail: robin.polak at gmail.com
> V. 917-494-2080
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


I would be really interested in better monitoring for postfix volumes.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081024/c9491ef3/attachment.htm>

From matt at atopia.net  Sat Oct 25 14:37:01 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:37:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Message-ID: <20081025143407.E91323@mercury.atopia.net>

You never really realize how much your computer is to your integrated 
BSD-geek sys-admin type lifestyle until you wake up and find it's dead.

I'm not much of a hardware wizard, but my IBM T42 seems to be kicking the 
bucket.  It powers on, but nothing comes on the screen except once out of 
every 5 or 6 power ons, which it will boot into Gnome and then the screen 
will start shaking like there's interference and it will lock up.

Trying to figure out what may be wrong, but also trying to see if can 
acquire a new laptop as soon as possible if that indeed is the case.  I 
will be in the city this evening and tomorrow, so if anyone has a laptop 
for sale, please reply to me off list.  I'm interested in IBM/Lenovo only 
for the most part.

Sorry to spam this list, but I didn't really have any other idea of how I 
could contact so many people (I would trust) so quickly.

-Matt


From ike at lesmuug.org  Sat Oct 25 16:21:35 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:21:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] on a 'lighter note' about cloud computing
In-Reply-To: <oqbpy44177.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <48E1A523.1010701@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<6c9183447d14f03f7282d7ed75d6c623@nomadlogic.org>
	<8c50a3c30810011056w73652aednb3e5ac8109bb8eb6@mail.gmail.com>
	<oqbpy44177.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <F29A9E10-4123-48A2-AA61-FFA49F2024F9@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

Regarding the ongoing nits about cloud computing, a decent article  
regarding borders, pricacy, and legality:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12471098

Rocket-
.ike




From matt at atopia.net  Sat Oct 25 21:25:33 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 01:25:33 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Message-ID: <1653613289-1224984334-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2063968919-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life. 

I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important. 

Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go? 

Thanks!
Thanks all!


From matt at atopia.net  Sat Oct 25 22:37:44 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:37:44 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Well, I work remotely and I go back and forth between boston and NY often. I would much prefer a laptop that can comfortably work as is. 

What sort of screen size does your light weight fell has?
-----Original Message-----
From: riegersteve at gmail.com

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:19:37 
To: <matt at atopia.net>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?


Keep 22" screen at work then



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

-----Original Message-----
From: matt at atopia.net

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:16:06 
To: <riegersteve at gmail.com>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?


I don't really want something so small I can't see the screen, though. Thin is nice. Light is nice. 8" screen would be too small. 

I have to use this laptop as my only computer so I need to make sure it doesn't make me go blind. 
------Original Message------
From: riegersteve at gmail.com
To: matt at atopia.net
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: riegersteve at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 22:13

Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight

And I run fbsd on her



------Original Message------
From: matt at atopia.net
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: matt at atopia.net
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 18:25
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?

Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life. 

I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important. 

Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go? 

Thanks!
Thanks all!
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

From mspitzer at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 22:31:43 2008
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:31:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <1653613289-1224984334-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2063968919-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1653613289-1224984334-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2063968919-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30810251931n6a552d2eja1e73dc9a0ab5450@mail.gmail.com>

Well IBM is out of the laptop bussness, you might want to look at the
eeepc 1000, or some others in the same class Levio ideapads come to
mind, sub $500 notebooks for light duty.

marc

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 9:25 PM,  <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life.
>
> I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important.
>
> Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go?
>
> Thanks!
> Thanks all!
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From riegersteve at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 22:13:03 2008
From: riegersteve at gmail.com (riegersteve at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:13:03 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Message-ID: <282871352-1224987185-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1057883831-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight

And I run fbsd on her



------Original Message------
From: matt at atopia.net
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: matt at atopia.net
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 18:25
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?

Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life. 

I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important. 

Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go? 

Thanks!
Thanks all!
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

From matt at atopia.net  Sat Oct 25 22:16:06 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:16:06 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Message-ID: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I don't really want something so small I can't see the screen, though. Thin is nice. Light is nice. 8" screen would be too small. 

I have to use this laptop as my only computer so I need to make sure it doesn't make me go blind. 
------Original Message------
From: riegersteve at gmail.com
To: matt at atopia.net
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: riegersteve at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 22:13

Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight

And I run fbsd on her



------Original Message------
From: matt at atopia.net
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: matt at atopia.net
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 18:25
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?

Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life. 

I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important. 

Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go? 

Thanks!
Thanks all!
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

From jonathan at kc8onw.net  Sat Oct 25 23:14:05 2008
From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (Jonathan)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:14:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Wireless AP
Message-ID: <4903E07D.9080704@kc8onw.net>

Has anyone here had any experience setting up a BSD wireless access
point?  I'd really like to do an AP/Wireless Bridge combo setup but I'm
not sure that is even possible with FreeBSD.  It appears that drivers
for current wireless hardware (802.11n) are still hard to come by for
FreeBSD as well.  (I realize iwn is in -current but it doesn't support
hostap)

I'm starting to think it may be much simpler to buy a hardware AP/Bridge
or router as I have a spare wired interface I could connect it to.  If
anyone has any hardware recommendations for this (or non-recommendations
for crappy stuff) I would welcome them.

Thank you,
Jonathan


From riegersteve at gmail.com  Sat Oct 25 22:19:37 2008
From: riegersteve at gmail.com (riegersteve at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:19:37 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Keep 22" screen at work then



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

-----Original Message-----
From: matt at atopia.net

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:16:06 
To: <riegersteve at gmail.com>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?


I don't really want something so small I can't see the screen, though. Thin is nice. Light is nice. 8" screen would be too small. 

I have to use this laptop as my only computer so I need to make sure it doesn't make me go blind. 
------Original Message------
From: riegersteve at gmail.com
To: matt at atopia.net
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: riegersteve at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 22:13

Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight

And I run fbsd on her



------Original Message------
From: matt at atopia.net
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
ReplyTo: matt at atopia.net
Sent: Oct 25, 2008 18:25
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?

Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life. 

I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important. 

Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go? 

Thanks!
Thanks all!
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

From mspitzer at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 00:18:30 2008
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:18:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>

10 inches or so.  for a primary box I would not go below 15" screen
with the ability to drive a bigger monitor.  I thought you wanted a
check email/light work laptop to carry around.

marc

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM,  <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> Well, I work remotely and I go back and forth between boston and NY often. I would much prefer a laptop that can comfortably work as is.
>
> What sort of screen size does your light weight fell has?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: riegersteve at gmail.com
>
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:19:37
> To: <matt at atopia.net>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
>
>
> Keep 22" screen at work then
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via Blackberry
> I can be reached at 310-947-8565
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: matt at atopia.net
>
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:16:06
> To: <riegersteve at gmail.com>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
>
>
> I don't really want something so small I can't see the screen, though. Thin is nice. Light is nice. 8" screen would be too small.
>
> I have to use this laptop as my only computer so I need to make sure it doesn't make me go blind.
> ------Original Message------
> From: riegersteve at gmail.com
> To: matt at atopia.net
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> ReplyTo: riegersteve at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
> Sent: Oct 25, 2008 22:13
>
> Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight
>
> And I run fbsd on her
>
>
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: matt at atopia.net
> Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> ReplyTo: matt at atopia.net
> Sent: Oct 25, 2008 18:25
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
>
> Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life.
>
> I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important.
>
> Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go?
>
> Thanks!
> Thanks all!
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via Blackberry
> I can be reached at 310-947-8565
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From matt at atopia.net  Sun Oct 26 00:23:28 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 04:23:28 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Nah, looking for a primary machine.  But still light weight and long battery life. 

I have a T42 right now and I like it. A bit too heavy, and I wouldn't mind something with longer battery life, but pretty good. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Marc Spitzer" <mspitzer at gmail.com>

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:18:30 
To: <matt at atopia.net>
Cc: <riegersteve at gmail.com>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?


10 inches or so.  for a primary box I would not go below 15" screen
with the ability to drive a bigger monitor.  I thought you wanted a
check email/light work laptop to carry around.

marc

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM,  <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> Well, I work remotely and I go back and forth between boston and NY often. I would much prefer a laptop that can comfortably work as is.
>
> What sort of screen size does your light weight fell has?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: riegersteve at gmail.com
>
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:19:37
> To: <matt at atopia.net>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
>
>
> Keep 22" screen at work then
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via Blackberry
> I can be reached at 310-947-8565
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: matt at atopia.net
>
> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:16:06
> To: <riegersteve at gmail.com>; <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
>
>
> I don't really want something so small I can't see the screen, though. Thin is nice. Light is nice. 8" screen would be too small.
>
> I have to use this laptop as my only computer so I need to make sure it doesn't make me go blind.
> ------Original Message------
> From: riegersteve at gmail.com
> To: matt at atopia.net
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> ReplyTo: riegersteve at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
> Sent: Oct 25, 2008 22:13
>
> Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight
>
> And I run fbsd on her
>
>
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: matt at atopia.net
> Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> ReplyTo: matt at atopia.net
> Sent: Oct 25, 2008 18:25
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
>
> Many of you have responded off list with advice on how to fix my existing machine.  While I don't plan on throwing it out or giving up on it, I do really think it is time for a new laptop.  I have only 3 requirements - that it run freebsd, its light in weight but durable (I carry it everywhere), and it has incredibly long battery life.
>
> I don't use my laptop for anything that isn't business related. Most of the time I open up a few ssh sessions and a web browser and that's it.... So high power and high video card output, etc isn't so important.
>
> Any suggestions?  Is IBM still the way to go?
>
> Thanks!
> Thanks all!
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via Blackberry
> I can be reached at 310-947-8565
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus

From akosela at andykosela.com  Sun Oct 26 08:34:32 2008
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:34:32 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80810260534h19ae8a3ewee841e968e7bc2ee@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 5:23 AM,  <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> Nah, looking for a primary machine.

I'm using HP Compaq 6715b which has a nice 15" wide screen. Works
flawlessly with FreeBSD after applying some patches from Coleman Kane
http://cokane.org/dokuwiki/freebsd/amd64_compatibility#getting_the_hp_compaq_6715b_working
Generally I like HP's laptops (very comfortable keyboards which is a
must for mostly CLI oriented geeks, high quality screens very suitable
for long hours of work).

-- 
Andy Kosela
ora et labora


From roger at wilcis.com  Sun Oct 26 08:56:19 2008
From: roger at wilcis.com (Roger W. Williams)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:56:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>

I have a T60 running OBSD at 1400x1050 native on its 15" screen.  Its
been running solidly for a couple of years now and the weight is
around 6 lbs. I believe.  I've always liked the IBM/Lenovo boxes, they
just seem to keep running.

Roger

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 04:23:28AM +0000, matt at atopia.net wrote:
> Nah, looking for a primary machine.  But still light weight and long battery life. 
> 
> I have a T42 right now and I like it. A bit too heavy, and I wouldn't mind something with longer battery life, but pretty good. 


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Oct 26 09:16:28 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 09:16:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
Message-ID: <49046DAC.2090500@ceetonetechnology.com>

Roger W. Williams wrote:
> I have a T60 running OBSD at 1400x1050 native on its 15" screen.  Its
> been running solidly for a couple of years now and the weight is
> around 6 lbs. I believe.  I've always liked the IBM/Lenovo boxes, they
> just seem to keep running.
> 

I had a ThinkPad T43 and now an X41. . . and really like them.  Can't 
imagine using another i386/amd64 laptop.

IBM/Lenovo stuff is solid. . .

The big hassle is ACPI hibernation with FBSD. . . I have to spend more 
time on it for the X41, since it successfully hibernates the first time, 
but doesn't the second time.  Strange.  Next step is to disable the 
second IDE interface, as per posts I've read.

It's light, yet the display is fine for me, even after the T43.

The question of what to buy in laptops is difficult today, since I feel 
pulled between the ultra light UMPC and regular light laptops.

One quick plug for dmesgd on nycbug.org. . . can be useful here.

g


From carton at Ivy.NET  Sun Oct 26 13:00:02 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:00:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Wireless AP
In-Reply-To: <4903E07D.9080704@kc8onw.net> (Jonathan's message of "Sat,
	25 Oct 2008 23:14:05 -0400")
References: <4903E07D.9080704@kc8onw.net>
Message-ID: <oqprlnmgvh.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "j" == Jonathan  <jonathan at kc8onw.net> writes:

     j> experience setting up a BSD wireless access point?

I've been trying to do it with prism2, atheros, ralink on netbsd and
openbsd, and it hasn't gone well.  Basic unencrypted hostap is not
stable, and important features like 802.11a or WPA2 aren't working.

My current suggestion is openwrt, on Ubiquiti or La Fonera.  I don't
have experience with it yet, though.  For Fonera you should order a
serial cable from the FTDI chip shop as discussed on the openwrt wiki,
because this makes installing a lot easier.

If Atheros is still around a year from now, things might be more
stable on all platforms because they've finally released their HAL
source.  but the best way of doing an AP is always going to be SoC,
and BSD is never going to run there.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081026/835fa41c/attachment.bin>

From carton at Ivy.NET  Sun Oct 26 13:11:11 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:11:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com> (Roger W.
	Williams's message of "Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:56:19 -0400")
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
Message-ID: <oqljwbmgcw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "rww" == Roger W Williams <roger at wilcis.com> writes:

   rww> T60 ... 1400x1050

You must mean T60p.  The older T<nn>p laptops have the best screen of
any laptop.  It's the biggest, and not shiny, and is lit by CCFL not
LED so you don't get that annoying tunnel-vision effect.

The new Lenovo X and T series are cheap!  But the new screen is less
good, and getting them to run *BSD should be harder since you have to
burry things in the sand for two years before daring to dream they
might work.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081026/e3d65a76/attachment.bin>

From matt at atopia.net  Sun Oct 26 13:42:22 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (matt at atopia.net)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:42:22 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <oqljwbmgcw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com><14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com><oqljwbmgcw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <1775320852-1225042940-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1533662733-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Miles,

So what would you recommend if I want something like my T42?


-----Original Message-----
From: Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net>

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:11:11 
To: <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From matt at atopia.net  Sun Oct 26 15:50:02 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:50:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80810260534h19ae8a3ewee841e968e7bc2ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com> 
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3cc535c80810260534h19ae8a3ewee841e968e7bc2ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081026154949.E2646@mercury.atopia.net>

HP laptops used to be pretty unstable and easily broke.  Have they become 
more stable and reliable?

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008, Andy Kosela wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 5:23 AM,  <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>> Nah, looking for a primary machine.
>
> I'm using HP Compaq 6715b which has a nice 15" wide screen. Works
> flawlessly with FreeBSD after applying some patches from Coleman Kane
> http://cokane.org/dokuwiki/freebsd/amd64_compatibility#getting_the_hp_compaq_6715b_working
> Generally I like HP's laptops (very comfortable keyboards which is a
> must for mostly CLI oriented geeks, high quality screens very suitable
> for long hours of work).
>
> -- 
> Andy Kosela
> ora et labora
>


From matt at atopia.net  Sun Oct 26 15:51:06 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:51:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <49046DAC.2090500@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
	<49046DAC.2090500@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20081026155043.C2646@mercury.atopia.net>

> I had a ThinkPad T43 and now an X41. . . and really like them.  Can't imagine 
> using another i386/amd64 laptop.

I have the T42 now which I loved.  What's your battery life like on the 
X41?


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Oct 26 16:18:55 2008
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:18:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <20081026155043.C2646@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
	<49046DAC.2090500@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20081026155043.C2646@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4904D0AF.5050803@ceetonetechnology.com>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
>> I had a ThinkPad T43 and now an X41. . . and really like them.  Can't 
>> imagine using another i386/amd64 laptop.
> 
> I have the T42 now which I loved.  What's your battery life like on the 
> X41?
> 

not so good. . . even with the 9 cell. . .

I've drained the battery several times to optimize, I have powerd 
running adaptive when unplugged. . .

Still not getting much more than 2 hours running X.

George


From akosela at andykosela.com  Sun Oct 26 17:04:51 2008
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:04:51 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <20081026154949.E2646@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<3cc535c80810260534h19ae8a3ewee841e968e7bc2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081026154949.E2646@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80810261404r19723f40r92fa35e39dbeb5a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> HP laptops used to be pretty unstable and easily broke.  Have they become
> more stable and reliable?
>

I got no problems with mine, but maybe i'm just pretty lucky ;)
On the serious note though, I've never had any real issues with HP's
laptops. This Compaq line is pretty 'business/work oriented' - no
shiny stuff etc

-- 
Andy Kosela
ora et labora


From carton at Ivy.NET  Sun Oct 26 17:10:09 2008
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:10:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <1775320852-1225042940-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1533662733-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	(matt@atopia.net's message of "Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:42:22 +0000")
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
	<oqljwbmgcw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<1775320852-1225042940-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1533662733-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <oqhc6zm5am.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "m" == matt  <matt at atopia.net> writes:

     m> So what would you recommend if I want something like my T42?

you answer your own question:  i recommend another T42.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 304 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081026/826c4976/attachment.bin>

From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 18:10:28 2008
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:10:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting on Postfix
In-Reply-To: <e24aad180810241242k6f19c924ge8e8ef4a9a55bb80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4901F0FB.7020107@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<551868240810240907v6e42b0b7l39f110f3d16f1126@mail.gmail.com>
	<e24aad180810241242k6f19c924ge8e8ef4a9a55bb80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa9991030810261510s2ac6b705p7d8f809cdf3f945@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Dan Colish <dan at radiusim.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Robin Polak <robin.polak at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would certainly be interested in hearing about how Postfix handles
>> SPAM and user validation.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 11:59, George Rosamond
>> <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
>> > It looks like the February meeting with be Victor Duchovni on Postfix. .
>> > .
>> >
>> > He's a pretty well-known developer in the Postfix world, and specializes
>> > in performance monitoring and TLS.  He also maintains a very large
>> > Postfix infrastructure.
>> >
>> > He could do a specific meeting on a variety of Postfix topics, but I
>> > would guess that something on performance monitoring and the recent
>> > overhauls of the Postfix qmgr (queue manager) would make the most sense.
>> >
>> > We discussed him preparing a short presentation that opens up the door
>> > to questions and discussion.
>> >
>> > On that note, what would people be interested in hearing him cover?
>> >
>> > George
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robin Polak
>> E-Mail: robin.polak at gmail.com
>> V. 917-494-2080
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> I would be really interested in better monitoring for postfix volumes.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>

Like the filesystem, or the amount of mail?

-jesse


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 18:20:32 2008
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:20:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Wireless AP
In-Reply-To: <4903E07D.9080704@kc8onw.net>
References: <4903E07D.9080704@kc8onw.net>
Message-ID: <aa9991030810261520x428e0421k7bc0e14aec6e020a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Jonathan <jonathan at kc8onw.net> wrote:
> Has anyone here had any experience setting up a BSD wireless access
> point?  I'd really like to do an AP/Wireless Bridge combo setup but I'm
> not sure that is even possible with FreeBSD.  It appears that drivers
> for current wireless hardware (802.11n) are still hard to come by for
> FreeBSD as well.  (I realize iwn is in -current but it doesn't support
> hostap)
>
> I'm starting to think it may be much simpler to buy a hardware AP/Bridge
> or router as I have a spare wired interface I could connect it to.  If
> anyone has any hardware recommendations for this (or non-recommendations
> for crappy stuff) I would welcome them.
>
> Thank you,
> Jonathan
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

I've not had good luck with BSD as an AP. Run away.

-jesse


From tekronis at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 23:05:58 2008
From: tekronis at gmail.com (H. G.)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:05:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Wireless AP
In-Reply-To: <aa9991030810261520x428e0421k7bc0e14aec6e020a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4903E07D.9080704@kc8onw.net>
	<aa9991030810261520x428e0421k7bc0e14aec6e020a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60131f920810262005h178c6947r3e79d12f9b00a698@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Jonathan <jonathan at kc8onw.net> wrote:
> > Has anyone here had any experience setting up a BSD wireless access
> > point?  I'd really like to do an AP/Wireless Bridge combo setup but I'm
> > not sure that is even possible with FreeBSD.  It appears that drivers
> > for current wireless hardware (802.11n) are still hard to come by for
> > FreeBSD as well.  (I realize iwn is in -current but it doesn't support
> > hostap)
> >
> > I'm starting to think it may be much simpler to buy a hardware AP/Bridge
> > or router as I have a spare wired interface I could connect it to.  If
> > anyone has any hardware recommendations for this (or non-recommendations
> > for crappy stuff) I would welcome them.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Jonathan
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
> I've not had good luck with BSD as an AP. Run away.
>
> -jesse
>

Strange.  I use an Atheros card on FreeBSD 6.2, and it works fine.
I'm not using hostapd, just using ifconfig to set the card's mode to hostap
("mediaopt hostap"),
and there's a dhcpd behind it.  No issues to speak of.

...maybe I'm doing something wrong.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081026/947f7711/attachment.htm>

From tekronis at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 23:10:17 2008
From: tekronis at gmail.com (H. G.)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:10:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <282871352-1224987185-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1057883831-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <282871352-1224987185-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1057883831-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <60131f920810262010n2a285eaak4f6ae1f83392f24e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM, <riegersteve at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can't beat a dell x300 for size n weight
>
> And I run fbsd on her
>
Battery life?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20081026/c826446b/attachment.htm>

From riegersteve at gmail.com  Sun Oct 26 23:21:13 2008
From: riegersteve at gmail.com (riegersteve at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 03:21:13 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <60131f920810262010n2a285eaak4f6ae1f83392f24e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <282871352-1224987185-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1057883831-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><60131f920810262010n2a285eaak4f6ae1f83392f24e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1107533900-1225077675-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-281678643-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

4 - 6 hours



--
Sent via Blackberry
I can be reached at 310-947-8565

-----Original Message-----
From: "H. G." <tekronis at gmail.com>

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:10:17 
To: <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From joerosenfeld at gmail.com  Mon Oct 27 11:50:18 2008
From: joerosenfeld at gmail.com (Joachim Rosenfeld)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:50:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <oqhc6zm5am.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
	<oqljwbmgcw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<1775320852-1225042940-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1533662733-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<oqhc6zm5am.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <6e5cf6a70810270850obafe4bcudec12a758018eedc@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net> wrote:
> > So what would you recommend if I want something like my T42?
>
> you answer your own question:  i recommend another T42.

I did this and couldn't be happier. I had a company-issued T41 for 2
years,
which I had to return when I left the company.

I shopped around for a new ThinkPad after that for a charity I support
and bought a new one (an X61 IIRC) for them. I used it for a week while
I was configuring it for them (I gave it to them with XP and Office, but
I ran FreeBSD 7 on it for a few days) and I was mostly happy with it.

Shortly thereafter, I realized I needed a laptop for my own and realized
that the new Lenovo, while shiny and superfast and all was nice, the old
T41 had met all my needs, so I went and bought a used one for $200, it
worked out great and I am very pleased that I went down the used route.


From matt at atopia.net  Tue Oct 28 00:22:26 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:22:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <6e5cf6a70810270850obafe4bcudec12a758018eedc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <229286652-1224987367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1422495770-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<834537919-1224987579-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158252115-@bxe262.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<187795568-1224988664-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1310887370-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c30810252118s620d4e1eh300d34074a994bd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<14856836-1224995009-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839844461-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<20081026125619.GA23723@deepthought.wilcis.com>
	<oqljwbmgcw.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<1775320852-1225042940-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1533662733-@bxe191.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<oqhc6zm5am.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<6e5cf6a70810270850obafe4bcudec12a758018eedc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081028002138.P89488@mercury.atopia.net>

> Shortly thereafter, I realized I needed a laptop for my own and realized
> that the new Lenovo, while shiny and superfast and all was nice, the old
> T41 had met all my needs, so I went and bought a used one for $200, it
> worked out great and I am very pleased that I went down the used route.

Yeah, I never had any problems with my T42.  It works perfectly for my 
needs.  And the newer ones (T60/T61) all seem to have shorter battery 
life, unles I'm mistaken.


From matt at atopia.net  Wed Oct 29 14:10:33 2008
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:10:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <20081025143407.E91323@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081025143407.E91323@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <20081029140929.I80770@mercury.atopia.net>

Well, I'm still trying to figure out my options, but at this point, it 
looks to be a video card "Detachment" problem that needs to be fixed 
either by soldering or new mobo.  But I'm thinking of sticking with 
another T42 if I can find one (anyone selling?) - the T400/T500's are all 
wide screen and I'm not quite ready for that, yet.

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> You never really realize how much your computer is to your integrated
> BSD-geek sys-admin type lifestyle until you wake up and find it's dead.
>
> I'm not much of a hardware wizard, but my IBM T42 seems to be kicking the
> bucket.  It powers on, but nothing comes on the screen except once out of
> every 5 or 6 power ons, which it will boot into Gnome and then the screen
> will start shaking like there's interference and it will lock up.
>
> Trying to figure out what may be wrong, but also trying to see if can
> acquire a new laptop as soon as possible if that indeed is the case.  I
> will be in the city this evening and tomorrow, so if anyone has a laptop
> for sale, please reply to me off list.  I'm interested in IBM/Lenovo only
> for the most part.
>
> Sorry to spam this list, but I didn't really have any other idea of how I
> could contact so many people (I would trust) so quickly.
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From max at neuropunks.org  Thu Oct 30 10:28:59 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:28:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Laptop is dead - what am I going to do?
In-Reply-To: <20081029140929.I80770@mercury.atopia.net>
References: <20081025143407.E91323@mercury.atopia.net>
	<20081029140929.I80770@mercury.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4909C4AB.3000401@neuropunks.org>

I just got a lenovo thinkpad sl400, so figured ill share my mini review 
of the machine.

These things are pretty far from the original thinkpad in design. Lenovo 
made some silly choices in my opnion:
- back of the screen is glossy plastic - sucks, cause ill scratch it and 
it constantly looks dirty
- the dot in I in thinkpad lights up red - omgwtf
- page up and page down keys are by the arrow keys - another wtf
- the lid doesnt have the snappy lock things - so screen feels a little 
fragile

pros:
- its light
- its cheap (around $700) for 1.8ghz core duo intel (2M cache per core) 
with 2G ram and 230Gb drive
- 4 usb ports, 1 hdmi port (!) and one SD card reader
- supports 802.11n and has gig ethernet

the battery life is eh -  about 2 hours with default battery, so if you 
get more cells, should get better

so, i think its cheap with good specs cause of almost crappy case 
engineering..
its great if you gonna keep it in the office most of the time, it feels 
like it may be too accident prone and fragile..

im using ubuntu on it, so all hardware (havent tried hdmi) works fine.. 
dunno about bsd



Matt Juszczak wrote:
> Well, I'm still trying to figure out my options, but at this point, it 
> looks to be a video card "Detachment" problem that needs to be fixed 
> either by soldering or new mobo.  But I'm thinking of sticking with 
> another T42 if I can find one (anyone selling?) - the T400/T500's are all 
> wide screen and I'm not quite ready for that, yet.
>
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2008, Matt Juszczak wrote:
>
>   
>> You never really realize how much your computer is to your integrated
>> BSD-geek sys-admin type lifestyle until you wake up and find it's dead.
>>
>> I'm not much of a hardware wizard, but my IBM T42 seems to be kicking the
>> bucket.  It powers on, but nothing comes on the screen except once out of
>> every 5 or 6 power ons, which it will boot into Gnome and then the screen
>> will start shaking like there's interference and it will lock up.
>>
>> Trying to figure out what may be wrong, but also trying to see if can
>> acquire a new laptop as soon as possible if that indeed is the case.  I
>> will be in the city this evening and tomorrow, so if anyone has a laptop
>> for sale, please reply to me off list.  I'm interested in IBM/Lenovo only
>> for the most part.
>>
>> Sorry to spam this list, but I didn't really have any other idea of how I
>> could contact so many people (I would trust) so quickly.
>>
>> -Matt
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>   



From ike at lesmuug.org  Fri Oct 31 14:43:33 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:43:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
	Oldschool?
Message-ID: <F42108D7-52ED-4A79-B80E-147CB64160FE@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

A scary ike-brain-dump lunchtime essay for halloween!
Freddie Crugar is slicing internet routing tables today!

------------
THE SCENARIO

Many of you saw the news yesterday afternoon that Sprint cut off  
peering with Cogent.

Here's a nice summary:
   http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Sprint-Cogent-in-Peering- 
Feud-98792

And Last Night:
   "Sprint-Nextel Severs Its Internet Connection to Cogent  
Communications"
   http://www.ibtimes.com/prnews/20081030/dc-cogent-sprint-law.htm


Many of us remember how various peering wars especially in the late  
90's made aspects of using the internet difficult and unreliable,  
(latency and reliability issues).  Recent years, IMHO, have been much  
better- (though people on this list from various ISP's may say  
different :)

I speak here as a user, from home, to business IT, to being a 'Colo  
Consumer' at various scales.

For those who forgot, or for whom it wasn't relevant back then, this  
commonly affected both datacenter/colo services, as well as last-mile  
connections- at least far more than recent years- from a 'user'  
perspective.  Peering problems have happened since, and Cogent is no  
stranger to peering disputes...

Well, suddenly alarms are going off in my brain, yesterday's net  
hiccups feel like bad old times.

My DSL (Speakeasy) gets quite slow for small periods of time since  
yesterday.  OpenBSD 4.4 release today is coming down *slowly*.  My  
home-office telecommute work day is sucking rocks.
My neighbor (Comcast Cable), reported less than 20k bandwidth for long  
periods of time last night.

Admittedly unscientifically, from my endpoint --> traceroute to known  
points in NYC, now go through mzima where they used to always go  
through some level3 pipes- so I *believe* I'm not crazy to say the  
Sprint/Cogent de-peering affected my piddly DSL, (as it reportedly  
seems to affect a lot more people).


-----------------
MY SMALL QUESTION (paging mr. Pilosoft...)

Cogent.  What's their deal?  Are they really the McBandwidth that  
people speak of?  Do they undercut the other carriers, as seems to be  
the legal/financial problem today- or are they a logical business  
manifestation in a market slow to change- (and in technology, I'm  
implying change moves with Moore's law)?

 From my view of available bandwidth in North America, all the big  
carriers have not met my expectations- none of them have had incentive  
to continue to invest in their infrastructure.  I know this is a huge  
and arguable notion, but the way that amortized expenditures have  
played out in the open market make an environment where carriers want  
to squeeze as much use out of any infrastructure deployed.

Can anyone on list who deals with pipes from the datacenter  
perspective Clarify WTF is up with Cogent for a 'Colo consumer' like  
myself?

Is this de-peering related to the big economic meltdown in some  
tangible way?


-----------------------
OPENING A PANDORAS BOX?
(why not- it is Haloween after all, muahahaha)

I'm NOT saying this backbone/growth situation is an evil conspiracy,  
(though the big carriers do have a trollish history of greed and  
neglect); maintaining stability of the market as we know it can really  
stifle growth, e.g.:

"Union Protests Verizon's Neglect Of Copper"
(in favor of FIOS expendatures, 6 months ago)
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/93261

The workers seem to have had a valid point, (and are picketing more  
recently on similar lack-of-sane-resources issues).  However, as an  
end user, I need the coming fiber *like yesterday*.  And there is the  
rift.  Upgrades.

I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,  
American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-  
especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be  
supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade cycles.

All the IT managers on list, at a myriad of tech and non-tech  
companies big and small, can understand tech growth strategies.
With servers and computers, the cost of upgrade is commonly  
understood.  In healthy (lucky) environments, growth is even planned  
for- that's part of an IT manager's job.  We all get it.
With that working understanding, the slow/expensive/unreliable  
offerings from internet carriers are truly frustrating.

As a 'Colo consumer', I know full well how increased speed, latency,  
and stability affect many businesses bottom line.  Typically,  
bandwidth decides success or failure of various businesses I've worked  
with.  Stable computing is always my job, but the carriers are one  
element which is completely out of my hands.

--
Lately, the economist Paul Krugman has come to the forefront through  
the market meltdown.
I think the sentiment of this 6 year old article is absolutely  
relevant today,

NY Times, December 6, 2002
"Digital Robber Barons?"
By PAUL KRUGMAN
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE3D6123BF935A35751C1A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print
-or-
http://tinyurl.com/6z2t24

Krugman writes:
"For example, I personally have no choice at all: if I want broadband,  
the Internet service provided by my local cable company is it. I'm  
like a 19th-century farmer who had to ship his grain on the Union  
Pacific, or not at all."
--

More destructive than the lack of competition among providers, I would  
argue, is that the big telcos are "getting into farming" themselves-  
so to speak.

Those here who know me, know that for years I always argue for a sort  
of "Separation of Content and Infrastructure", which I argue is  
similar in it's aim to the US Constitutional "Separation of Church and  
State".

The myriad of other businesses the 'big backbone telcos' are running,  
(the wireleess phone mafia, ringtones, media/content distribution  
[think Viacom], CDN's, software/application/web development, etc...)
This is as repressive as a world where Wall Mart was in charge of the  
roads and streets- what if Wall Mart built roads in place of the US  
Department of Transportation?
In the world of roads and streets, this scenario is clearly  
unacceptable.  In the world of backbone telcos, why do we all tolerate  
this?
Why do so many people embedded in the business of technology simply  
lump disparate content and infrastructure digital businesses together  
and accept it all as 'technology'?

Is government legislation of the backbones, (like the construction and  
maintenance of roads), an answer?  American government sure hasn't  
been mature enough to rationally come close to this issue, (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes 
 >), but perhaps now that Ted Stevens is in the tank, <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avU1ymwZg4R4&refer=home 
 >, we may have some hope... (haha).



--------------------------
TIMING FOR THIS DISCUSSION
(I've had it up to here with this mania...)

Seriously- I feel this may be a critical moment to be thinking the  
notion of US Government regulation or involvement in internet  
infrastructure.  Fundamental concepts and principles, not just  
technical implementation details.

"If Obama Appoints a Tech Czar . . ."
By Garrett M. Graff
http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/8378.html
"Names kicking around Silicon Valley and the tech community as CTO  
candidates include Google?s Vint Cerf, one of the founders of the  
Internet, Microsoft?s Steve Ballmer, Amazon?s Jeff Bezos, eBay founder  
Pierre Omidyar, and Lotus pioneer Mitch Kapor."

Yuck.  Since when did the most successful cutthroat Silicon Valley  
business leaders have any any place as public servants, where greater  
issues than their short-term tech market is at stake?  The internet,  
and use of digital networks, is beginning to augment the fundamental  
fabric of our post-industrial lives.

While it's exciting to me that a committed government 'CIO' post would  
be considered in the first place.  It seems far better than a  
continuation of current network policy practices- a wild-west  
mentality where the administration simply ignores the public issues,  
and the most attention networks and technology get is from technology  
people like Mike Connell, among others (a Bush White House IT  
Consultant):
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mike_Connell
Additionally, we're watching the collapse of unregulated wild-west  
economics.  Nobody is game to simply 'let the market decide' any more.

But even the accomplished Vint Cerf bothers me in this role- as he  
currently is "Chief Internet Evangelist for Google" (Google's  
businesses have come to mangle Content and Infrastructure from an  
opposite position to the Telcos, IMHO).
http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html#vint

Who else could make a good candidate?
What history of other critical infrastructure in North America is  
worth studying?
   - railroad
   - interstate highways
   - city roads
   - electrical grid
   - water rights
What, with communications networks, could fundamentally change?
<http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/cscie129/papers/Early_History_of_Data_Networks/The_Early_History_of_Data_Networks.html
-or-
<http://tinyurl.com/5a3m2j>


With the election coming up next Tuesday, I DO NOT want this post to  
degenerate into a political thread- but I would like to point out the  
stated policies of our incumbent candidates are a VERY interesting read:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/cbcd3a48-4b0e-4864-8be1-d04561c132ea.htm


--
I may sound negative here, but truly, I'm amazed and delighted the  
internet works at all- every day- and love working in it.
Sorry for the long essay style post- if you read this far, thanks!  If  
you choose to constructively comment, on or off list, (even  
constructively tell me I'm nuts), thanks even more!

Who has internet backbone?
.ike




From max at neuropunks.org  Fri Oct 31 14:50:07 2008
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:50:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
 Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <F42108D7-52ED-4A79-B80E-147CB64160FE@lesmuug.org>
References: <F42108D7-52ED-4A79-B80E-147CB64160FE@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <490B535F.5000309@neuropunks.org>

Im sure Alex has more interesting things to contribute to this, but i 
think this article illustrates the event pretty well:
http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/10/wrestling-with-the-zombie-spri.shtml

note how nasa has single homed networks both on spring and cogent - much 
lolz that is


Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> A scary ike-brain-dump lunchtime essay for halloween!
> Freddie Crugar is slicing internet routing tables today!
>
> ------------
> THE SCENARIO
>
> Many of you saw the news yesterday afternoon that Sprint cut off  
> peering with Cogent.
>
> Here's a nice summary:
>    http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Sprint-Cogent-in-Peering- 
> Feud-98792
>
> And Last Night:
>    "Sprint-Nextel Severs Its Internet Connection to Cogent  
> Communications"
>    http://www.ibtimes.com/prnews/20081030/dc-cogent-sprint-law.htm
>
>
> Many of us remember how various peering wars especially in the late  
> 90's made aspects of using the internet difficult and unreliable,  
> (latency and reliability issues).  Recent years, IMHO, have been much  
> better- (though people on this list from various ISP's may say  
> different :)
>
> I speak here as a user, from home, to business IT, to being a 'Colo  
> Consumer' at various scales.
>
> For those who forgot, or for whom it wasn't relevant back then, this  
> commonly affected both datacenter/colo services, as well as last-mile  
> connections- at least far more than recent years- from a 'user'  
> perspective.  Peering problems have happened since, and Cogent is no  
> stranger to peering disputes...
>
> Well, suddenly alarms are going off in my brain, yesterday's net  
> hiccups feel like bad old times.
>
> My DSL (Speakeasy) gets quite slow for small periods of time since  
> yesterday.  OpenBSD 4.4 release today is coming down *slowly*.  My  
> home-office telecommute work day is sucking rocks.
> My neighbor (Comcast Cable), reported less than 20k bandwidth for long  
> periods of time last night.
>
> Admittedly unscientifically, from my endpoint --> traceroute to known  
> points in NYC, now go through mzima where they used to always go  
> through some level3 pipes- so I *believe* I'm not crazy to say the  
> Sprint/Cogent de-peering affected my piddly DSL, (as it reportedly  
> seems to affect a lot more people).
>
>
> -----------------
> MY SMALL QUESTION (paging mr. Pilosoft...)
>
> Cogent.  What's their deal?  Are they really the McBandwidth that  
> people speak of?  Do they undercut the other carriers, as seems to be  
> the legal/financial problem today- or are they a logical business  
> manifestation in a market slow to change- (and in technology, I'm  
> implying change moves with Moore's law)?
>
>  From my view of available bandwidth in North America, all the big  
> carriers have not met my expectations- none of them have had incentive  
> to continue to invest in their infrastructure.  I know this is a huge  
> and arguable notion, but the way that amortized expenditures have  
> played out in the open market make an environment where carriers want  
> to squeeze as much use out of any infrastructure deployed.
>
> Can anyone on list who deals with pipes from the datacenter  
> perspective Clarify WTF is up with Cogent for a 'Colo consumer' like  
> myself?
>
> Is this de-peering related to the big economic meltdown in some  
> tangible way?
>
>
> -----------------------
> OPENING A PANDORAS BOX?
> (why not- it is Haloween after all, muahahaha)
>
> I'm NOT saying this backbone/growth situation is an evil conspiracy,  
> (though the big carriers do have a trollish history of greed and  
> neglect); maintaining stability of the market as we know it can really  
> stifle growth, e.g.:
>
> "Union Protests Verizon's Neglect Of Copper"
> (in favor of FIOS expendatures, 6 months ago)
> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/93261
>
> The workers seem to have had a valid point, (and are picketing more  
> recently on similar lack-of-sane-resources issues).  However, as an  
> end user, I need the coming fiber *like yesterday*.  And there is the  
> rift.  Upgrades.
>
> I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,  
> American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-  
> especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be  
> supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade cycles.
>
> All the IT managers on list, at a myriad of tech and non-tech  
> companies big and small, can understand tech growth strategies.
> With servers and computers, the cost of upgrade is commonly  
> understood.  In healthy (lucky) environments, growth is even planned  
> for- that's part of an IT manager's job.  We all get it.
> With that working understanding, the slow/expensive/unreliable  
> offerings from internet carriers are truly frustrating.
>
> As a 'Colo consumer', I know full well how increased speed, latency,  
> and stability affect many businesses bottom line.  Typically,  
> bandwidth decides success or failure of various businesses I've worked  
> with.  Stable computing is always my job, but the carriers are one  
> element which is completely out of my hands.
>
> --
> Lately, the economist Paul Krugman has come to the forefront through  
> the market meltdown.
> I think the sentiment of this 6 year old article is absolutely  
> relevant today,
>
> NY Times, December 6, 2002
> "Digital Robber Barons?"
> By PAUL KRUGMAN
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE3D6123BF935A35751C1A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print
> -or-
> http://tinyurl.com/6z2t24
>
> Krugman writes:
> "For example, I personally have no choice at all: if I want broadband,  
> the Internet service provided by my local cable company is it. I'm  
> like a 19th-century farmer who had to ship his grain on the Union  
> Pacific, or not at all."
> --
>
> More destructive than the lack of competition among providers, I would  
> argue, is that the big telcos are "getting into farming" themselves-  
> so to speak.
>
> Those here who know me, know that for years I always argue for a sort  
> of "Separation of Content and Infrastructure", which I argue is  
> similar in it's aim to the US Constitutional "Separation of Church and  
> State".
>
> The myriad of other businesses the 'big backbone telcos' are running,  
> (the wireleess phone mafia, ringtones, media/content distribution  
> [think Viacom], CDN's, software/application/web development, etc...)
> This is as repressive as a world where Wall Mart was in charge of the  
> roads and streets- what if Wall Mart built roads in place of the US  
> Department of Transportation?
> In the world of roads and streets, this scenario is clearly  
> unacceptable.  In the world of backbone telcos, why do we all tolerate  
> this?
> Why do so many people embedded in the business of technology simply  
> lump disparate content and infrastructure digital businesses together  
> and accept it all as 'technology'?
>
> Is government legislation of the backbones, (like the construction and  
> maintenance of roads), an answer?  American government sure hasn't  
> been mature enough to rationally come close to this issue, (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes 
>  >), but perhaps now that Ted Stevens is in the tank, <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avU1ymwZg4R4&refer=home 
>  >, we may have some hope... (haha).
>
>
>
> --------------------------
> TIMING FOR THIS DISCUSSION
> (I've had it up to here with this mania...)
>
> Seriously- I feel this may be a critical moment to be thinking the  
> notion of US Government regulation or involvement in internet  
> infrastructure.  Fundamental concepts and principles, not just  
> technical implementation details.
>
> "If Obama Appoints a Tech Czar . . ."
> By Garrett M. Graff
> http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/8378.html
> "Names kicking around Silicon Valley and the tech community as CTO  
> candidates include Google?s Vint Cerf, one of the founders of the  
> Internet, Microsoft?s Steve Ballmer, Amazon?s Jeff Bezos, eBay founder  
> Pierre Omidyar, and Lotus pioneer Mitch Kapor."
>
> Yuck.  Since when did the most successful cutthroat Silicon Valley  
> business leaders have any any place as public servants, where greater  
> issues than their short-term tech market is at stake?  The internet,  
> and use of digital networks, is beginning to augment the fundamental  
> fabric of our post-industrial lives.
>
> While it's exciting to me that a committed government 'CIO' post would  
> be considered in the first place.  It seems far better than a  
> continuation of current network policy practices- a wild-west  
> mentality where the administration simply ignores the public issues,  
> and the most attention networks and technology get is from technology  
> people like Mike Connell, among others (a Bush White House IT  
> Consultant):
> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mike_Connell
> Additionally, we're watching the collapse of unregulated wild-west  
> economics.  Nobody is game to simply 'let the market decide' any more.
>
> But even the accomplished Vint Cerf bothers me in this role- as he  
> currently is "Chief Internet Evangelist for Google" (Google's  
> businesses have come to mangle Content and Infrastructure from an  
> opposite position to the Telcos, IMHO).
> http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html#vint
>
> Who else could make a good candidate?
> What history of other critical infrastructure in North America is  
> worth studying?
>    - railroad
>    - interstate highways
>    - city roads
>    - electrical grid
>    - water rights
> What, with communications networks, could fundamentally change?
> <http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/cscie129/papers/Early_History_of_Data_Networks/The_Early_History_of_Data_Networks.html
> -or-
> <http://tinyurl.com/5a3m2j>
>
>
> With the election coming up next Tuesday, I DO NOT want this post to  
> degenerate into a political thread- but I would like to point out the  
> stated policies of our incumbent candidates are a VERY interesting read:
>
> http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/
>
> http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/cbcd3a48-4b0e-4864-8be1-d04561c132ea.htm
>
>
> --
> I may sound negative here, but truly, I'm amazed and delighted the  
> internet works at all- every day- and love working in it.
> Sorry for the long essay style post- if you read this far, thanks!  If  
> you choose to constructively comment, on or off list, (even  
> constructively tell me I'm nuts), thanks even more!
>
> Who has internet backbone?
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>   



From ike at lesmuug.org  Fri Oct 31 15:02:10 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:02:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
	Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <490B535F.5000309@neuropunks.org>
References: <F42108D7-52ED-4A79-B80E-147CB64160FE@lesmuug.org>
	<490B535F.5000309@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <5126E338-CD84-46A5-A4A3-1ED406FA13FB@lesmuug.org>

Snipped down to thwart the top post,

> Isaac Levy wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> A scary ike-brain-dump lunchtime essay for halloween!
>> Freddie Crugar is slicing internet routing tables today!
>>
>> ------------
>> THE SCENARIO
>>
>> Many of you saw the news yesterday afternoon that Sprint cut off
>> peering with Cogent.
>>
>> Here's a nice summary:
>>   http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Sprint-Cogent-in-Peering-
>> Feud-98792
>>
>> And Last Night:
>>   "Sprint-Nextel Severs Its Internet Connection to Cogent
>> Communications"
>>   http://www.ibtimes.com/prnews/20081030/dc-cogent-sprint-law.htm
>>
>>
>> Many of us remember how various peering wars especially in the late
>> 90's made aspects of using the internet difficult and unreliable,
>> (latency and reliability issues).  Recent years, IMHO, have been much
>> better- (though people on this list from various ISP's may say
>> different :)
>>
>> I speak here as a user, from home, to business IT, to being a 'Colo
>> Consumer' at various scales.
>>
>> For those who forgot, or for whom it wasn't relevant back then, this
>> commonly affected both datacenter/colo services, as well as last-mile
>> connections- at least far more than recent years- from a 'user'
>> perspective.  Peering problems have happened since, and Cogent is no
>> stranger to peering disputes...
>>
>> Well, suddenly alarms are going off in my brain, yesterday's net
>> hiccups feel like bad old times.
>>
>> My DSL (Speakeasy) gets quite slow for small periods of time since
>> yesterday.  OpenBSD 4.4 release today is coming down *slowly*.  My
>> home-office telecommute work day is sucking rocks.
>> My neighbor (Comcast Cable), reported less than 20k bandwidth for  
>> long
>> periods of time last night.
>>
>> Admittedly unscientifically, from my endpoint --> traceroute to known
>> points in NYC, now go through mzima where they used to always go
>> through some level3 pipes- so I *believe* I'm not crazy to say the
>> Sprint/Cogent de-peering affected my piddly DSL, (as it reportedly
>> seems to affect a lot more people).
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>> MY SMALL QUESTION (paging mr. Pilosoft...)
>>
>> Cogent.  What's their deal?  Are they really the McBandwidth that
>> people speak of?  Do they undercut the other carriers, as seems to be
>> the legal/financial problem today- or are they a logical business
>> manifestation in a market slow to change- (and in technology, I'm
>> implying change moves with Moore's law)?
>>
>> From my view of available bandwidth in North America, all the big
>> carriers have not met my expectations- none of them have had  
>> incentive
>> to continue to invest in their infrastructure.  I know this is a huge
>> and arguable notion, but the way that amortized expenditures have
>> played out in the open market make an environment where carriers want
>> to squeeze as much use out of any infrastructure deployed.
>>
>> Can anyone on list who deals with pipes from the datacenter
>> perspective Clarify WTF is up with Cogent for a 'Colo consumer' like
>> myself?
>>
>> Is this de-peering related to the big economic meltdown in some
>> tangible way?
>>
>>
>> -----------------------
>> OPENING A PANDORAS BOX?
>> (why not- it is Haloween after all, muahahaha)
>>
>> I'm NOT saying this backbone/growth situation is an evil conspiracy,
>> (though the big carriers do have a trollish history of greed and
>> neglect); maintaining stability of the market as we know it can  
>> really
>> stifle growth, e.g.:
>>
>> "Union Protests Verizon's Neglect Of Copper"
>> (in favor of FIOS expendatures, 6 months ago)
>> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/93261
>>
>> The workers seem to have had a valid point, (and are picketing more
>> recently on similar lack-of-sane-resources issues).  However, as an
>> end user, I need the coming fiber *like yesterday*.  And there is the
>> rift.  Upgrades.
>>
>> I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,
>> American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-
>> especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be
>> supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade  
>> cycles.
>>
>> All the IT managers on list, at a myriad of tech and non-tech
>> companies big and small, can understand tech growth strategies.
>> With servers and computers, the cost of upgrade is commonly
>> understood.  In healthy (lucky) environments, growth is even planned
>> for- that's part of an IT manager's job.  We all get it.
>> With that working understanding, the slow/expensive/unreliable
>> offerings from internet carriers are truly frustrating.
>>
>> As a 'Colo consumer', I know full well how increased speed, latency,
>> and stability affect many businesses bottom line.  Typically,
>> bandwidth decides success or failure of various businesses I've  
>> worked
>> with.  Stable computing is always my job, but the carriers are one
>> element which is completely out of my hands.
>>
>> --
>> Lately, the economist Paul Krugman has come to the forefront through
>> the market meltdown.
>> I think the sentiment of this 6 year old article is absolutely
>> relevant today,
>>
>> NY Times, December 6, 2002
>> "Digital Robber Barons?"
>> By PAUL KRUGMAN
>> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE3D6123BF935A35751C1A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print
>> -or-
>> http://tinyurl.com/6z2t24
>>
>> Krugman writes:
>> "For example, I personally have no choice at all: if I want  
>> broadband,
>> the Internet service provided by my local cable company is it. I'm
>> like a 19th-century farmer who had to ship his grain on the Union
>> Pacific, or not at all."
>> --
>>
>> More destructive than the lack of competition among providers, I  
>> would
>> argue, is that the big telcos are "getting into farming" themselves-
>> so to speak.
>>
>> Those here who know me, know that for years I always argue for a sort
>> of "Separation of Content and Infrastructure", which I argue is
>> similar in it's aim to the US Constitutional "Separation of Church  
>> and
>> State".
>>
>> The myriad of other businesses the 'big backbone telcos' are running,
>> (the wireleess phone mafia, ringtones, media/content distribution
>> [think Viacom], CDN's, software/application/web development, etc...)
>> This is as repressive as a world where Wall Mart was in charge of the
>> roads and streets- what if Wall Mart built roads in place of the US
>> Department of Transportation?
>> In the world of roads and streets, this scenario is clearly
>> unacceptable.  In the world of backbone telcos, why do we all  
>> tolerate
>> this?
>> Why do so many people embedded in the business of technology simply
>> lump disparate content and infrastructure digital businesses together
>> and accept it all as 'technology'?
>>
>> Is government legislation of the backbones, (like the construction  
>> and
>> maintenance of roads), an answer?  American government sure hasn't
>> been mature enough to rationally come close to this issue, (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes
>>> ), but perhaps now that Ted Stevens is in the tank, <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avU1ymwZg4R4&refer=home
>>> , we may have some hope... (haha).
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------
>> TIMING FOR THIS DISCUSSION
>> (I've had it up to here with this mania...)
>>
>> Seriously- I feel this may be a critical moment to be thinking the
>> notion of US Government regulation or involvement in internet
>> infrastructure.  Fundamental concepts and principles, not just
>> technical implementation details.
>>
>> "If Obama Appoints a Tech Czar . . ."
>> By Garrett M. Graff
>> http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/8378.html
>> "Names kicking around Silicon Valley and the tech community as CTO
>> candidates include Google?s Vint Cerf, one of the founders of the
>> Internet, Microsoft?s Steve Ballmer, Amazon?s Jeff Bezos, eBay  
>> founder
>> Pierre Omidyar, and Lotus pioneer Mitch Kapor."
>>
>> Yuck.  Since when did the most successful cutthroat Silicon Valley
>> business leaders have any any place as public servants, where greater
>> issues than their short-term tech market is at stake?  The internet,
>> and use of digital networks, is beginning to augment the fundamental
>> fabric of our post-industrial lives.
>>
>> While it's exciting to me that a committed government 'CIO' post  
>> would
>> be considered in the first place.  It seems far better than a
>> continuation of current network policy practices- a wild-west
>> mentality where the administration simply ignores the public issues,
>> and the most attention networks and technology get is from technology
>> people like Mike Connell, among others (a Bush White House IT
>> Consultant):
>> http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mike_Connell
>> Additionally, we're watching the collapse of unregulated wild-west
>> economics.  Nobody is game to simply 'let the market decide' any  
>> more.
>>
>> But even the accomplished Vint Cerf bothers me in this role- as he
>> currently is "Chief Internet Evangelist for Google" (Google's
>> businesses have come to mangle Content and Infrastructure from an
>> opposite position to the Telcos, IMHO).
>> http://www.google.com/corporate/execs.html#vint
>>
>> Who else could make a good candidate?
>> What history of other critical infrastructure in North America is
>> worth studying?
>>   - railroad
>>   - interstate highways
>>   - city roads
>>   - electrical grid
>>   - water rights
>> What, with communications networks, could fundamentally change?
>> <http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/cscie129/papers/Early_History_of_Data_Networks/The_Early_History_of_Data_Networks.html
>> -or-
>> <http://tinyurl.com/5a3m2j>
>>
>>
>> With the election coming up next Tuesday, I DO NOT want this post to
>> degenerate into a political thread- but I would like to point out the
>> stated policies of our incumbent candidates are a VERY interesting  
>> read:
>>
>> http://www.barackobama.com/issues/technology/
>>
>> http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/cbcd3a48-4b0e-4864-8be1-d04561c132ea.htm
>>
>>
>> --
>> I may sound negative here, but truly, I'm amazed and delighted the
>> internet works at all- every day- and love working in it.
>> Sorry for the long essay style post- if you read this far, thanks!   
>> If
>> you choose to constructively comment, on or off list, (even
>> constructively tell me I'm nuts), thanks even more!
>>
>> Who has internet backbone?
>> .ike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>


On Oct 31, 2008, at 2:50 PM, Max Gribov wrote:

> Im sure Alex has more interesting things to contribute to this, but i
> think this article illustrates the event pretty well:
> http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/10/wrestling-with-the-zombie-spri.shtml
>
> note how nasa has single homed networks both on spring and cogent -  
> much
> lolz that is
>

>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>


lolz indeed! (and furthering my big gripe above):

"Sprint hasn't paid any particular attention to its IP product and  
network at a senior management level for a very long time. They are  
clearly focused on wireline and wireless telecom services and Overland  
Park management seem to remain mostly unaware that they even operate  
an IP network. In other words, Cogent has picked a fight with a zombie  
here. They may even rip off a limb or two, but that doesn't mean the  
zombie will notice."

Rocket-
.ike




From ike at lesmuug.org  Fri Oct 31 16:08:16 2008
From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:08:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
	Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810311454480.28579-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810311454480.28579-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <512F3A48-3261-4C45-A8E6-8B863C3D9101@lesmuug.org>

Hi Alex,

On Oct 31, 2008, at 3:15 PM, Alex Pilosov wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Many of us remember how various peering wars especially in the late  
>> 90's
>> made aspects of using the internet difficult and unreliable, (latency
>> and reliability issues).  Recent years, IMHO, have been much better-
>> (though people on this list from various ISP's may say different :)
> Not really, seems to happen about as often, you just stopped paying
> attention.

I assumed so.

>
>
>> Well, suddenly alarms are going off in my brain, yesterday's net  
>> hiccups
>> feel like bad old times.
>>
>> My DSL (Speakeasy) gets quite slow for small periods of time since
>> yesterday.  OpenBSD 4.4 release today is coming down *slowly*.  My
>> home-office telecommute work day is sucking rocks. My neighbor  
>> (Comcast
>> Cable), reported less than 20k bandwidth for long periods of time  
>> last
>> night.
> Correlation does not imply causation.

Er, it does imply, but your sentiment is correct if I modify-  
correlation does not confirm causation.

>
>
>> Admittedly unscientifically, from my endpoint --> traceroute to known
>> points in NYC, now go through mzima where they used to always go  
>> through
>> some level3 pipes- so I *believe* I'm not crazy to say the Sprint/ 
>> Cogent
>> de-peering affected my piddly DSL, (as it reportedly seems to  
>> affect a
>> lot more people).
> Yes, gamerz coming out from woodwork  and "OMG IM PINGIN 10"

lol

>
>
>> MY SMALL QUESTION (paging mr. Pilosoft...)
>>
>> Cogent.  What's their deal?  Are they really the McBandwidth that  
>> people
>> speak of?  Do they undercut the other carriers, as seems to be the
>> legal/financial problem today- or are they a logical business
>> manifestation in a market slow to change- (and in technology, I'm
>> implying change moves with Moore's law)?
> Yes and no.  They *were* the destructive-pricing leader, but nowadays,
> they are roughly par for the course. Cogent however is very much  
> willing
> to play the blinking game - since both Cogent's and Sprint's  
> customers are
> inconvenienced, both will be upset and demanding credits/etc - cogent
> however is much better at telling their customers to suck it. :)

That was exactly what I was interested in- thx man.

>
>
>> From my view of available bandwidth in North America, all the big
>> carriers have not met my expectations- none of them have had  
>> incentive
>> to continue to invest in their infrastructure.  I know this is a huge
>> and arguable notion, but the way that amortized expenditures have  
>> played
>> out in the open market make an environment where carriers want to
>> squeeze as much use out of any infrastructure deployed.
> Sorry, can you make a more vague statement?

Er, good point- sry- how about this:

After years of (happily) paying ISP's, I see little change or  
explanation from ISP's for why speeds/quality/reliability remains the  
same.

I see old networking gear, and a massive multi-billion dollar business  
maintaining a status quo which I'm not happy about.

Examples:
ISP's getting into the CDN business: AT&T, XO, Internap, etc...
Network Providers focused on ringtones: Telewest, Sprint, AT&T
Network Providers marry Media (Content) Businesses: AT&T, Quest, Verizon

None of this free market has opened up the market for various content  
businesses to use the internet, however my point here is that none of  
it has made our providers re-invest significantly in their own  
networks either.

>
>
>> Can anyone on list who deals with pipes from the datacenter  
>> perspective
>> Clarify WTF is up with Cogent for a 'Colo consumer' like myself?
> What's the question really? What is the fuck with cogent fails to  
> parse.

You answered it above just fine.

>
>
>> Is this de-peering related to the big economic meltdown in some  
>> tangible
>> way?
> Don't see how.

K- totally understood if there is no connection.

I was thinking Sprint may have been going around rattling cages to cut  
costs and make their next quarters numbers...  Not a conspiracy, but  
as the market is down...

>
>
>> I'm NOT saying this backbone/growth situation is an evil conspiracy,
>> (though the big carriers do have a trollish history of greed and
>> neglect); maintaining stability of the market as we know it can  
>> really
>> stifle growth, e.g.:
>>
>> "Union Protests Verizon's Neglect Of Copper"
>> (in favor of FIOS expendatures, 6 months ago)
>> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/93261
> F unions. Seriously. Every single one of them needs to be disbanded,  
> and
> leaders put in jail. But that's separate point.

Indeed it is :)

>
>
>> The workers seem to have had a valid point, (and are picketing more
>> recently on similar lack-of-sane-resources issues).  However, as an  
>> end
>> user, I need the coming fiber *like yesterday*.  And there is the  
>> rift.
>> Upgrades.
> No, they just want moar money, more work, and monopoly in their  
> work. They
> can't care less about the customers.  They are upset VZ is letting  
> go of
> coppre techs, and too dumb to learn fiber. (Etiher that or VZ  
> figured out
> how to avoid hiring union people to deal with fiber).

Gotcha- but look, I wanna stay out of the Union debate- it's not my  
battle.

My point here, is that upgrading the networks seems to be happening in  
big waves- instead of a more cumulative or calculated manner- and  
therefore has pains.

Why?

When I worked on the web-hosting ISP, we had a life-span for each  
server accounted for in advance, and rough estimates on what the tech  
(and service offerings) would be a couple of years down the road.  It  
worked out peachy- servers, storage, etc... all could cumulatively  
grow and change as technology advanced.

>
>
>> I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,
>> American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-
>> especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be
>> supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade  
>> cycles.
> We all held them accountable, with our wallets. It's called 'free  
> market'.

I'm no economist, but didn't the raw free market, and Freedman-style  
economics, just wholly collapse?

>
>
>> All the IT managers on list, at a myriad of tech and non-tech  
>> companies
>> big and small, can understand tech growth strategies. With servers  
>> and
>> computers, the cost of upgrade is commonly understood.  In healthy
>> (lucky) environments, growth is even planned for- that's part of an  
>> IT
>> manager's job.  We all get it. With that working understanding, the
>> slow/expensive/unreliable offerings from internet carriers are truly
>> frustrating.
> It's complicated. Lack of clue is a general problem in this industry,

Which is why I appreciate your words here on list, seriously.

> but
> this applies equally for carriers and customers, and dare to say, more
> customers than carriers. Fortunately, in my experience, having clue on
> *one* side of the relationship is generally sufficient to overcome  
> lack of
> clue on the other side.

Taken one way, to overcome the lack of network stability/speed  
options, yes- we all overcome the carriers bs.
I mean, heck- Pilosoft has been around forever, and you've dealt with  
the carriers for years Alex- to keep the business running.

But if a company has a network application which drives their  
business, and the network sucks/fails, it's out of their hands,  
right?  It becomes a surprise cost, and everyone down the chain is  
affected by the big carriers decision making?

It's not about whose smarter here- it's about making systems meet the  
demands of the market/whatever.

> Hint hint.

If I take that hint the other way, I'm stealing your mouse next time  
I'm in the office just to be spiteful. ;P

>
>
>> Those here who know me, know that for years I always argue for a  
>> sort of
>> "Separation of Content and Infrastructure", which I argue is  
>> similar in
>> it's aim to the US Constitutional "Separation of Church and State".
> It's not about content. it is about separation of 'last mile' (which  
> is a
> natural monopoly and should stay that way) and everything else.  
> Telecom
> Act of 96 promised competition, but telcos managed to get around it  
> while
> winning rights to long-distance operations.

I agree- the Telcom act was hacked to bits.

I would argue that the US Govt. was far too immature with where  
networks were going to even legislate, back then- and perhaps now?

>
>
>> The myriad of other businesses the 'big backbone telcos' are running,
>> (the wireleess phone mafia, ringtones, media/content distribution  
>> [think
>> Viacom], CDN's, software/application/web development, etc...) This  
>> is as
>> repressive as a world where Wall Mart was in charge of the roads and
>> streets- what if Wall Mart built roads in place of the US  
>> Department of
>> Transportation?
> Er, I dunno. I think the roads would be better maintained, honestly.  
> This
> is somewhat a different subject. (As you might now, many toll roads  
> are
> now built and operated by commercial enterprises).

Er, argueable, and I wholly (respectfully) disagree.

For examples, I-75 and I-95 in Florida, both toll roads, blow chunks.

Private (toll) highways in southern California don't solve traffic  
congestion problems, they simply create land use monopolies.

And even the (proposed and actual) tolls for NYC-Metro roads are run  
by Port Authority, a quasi-government agency subject to *heavy* city/ 
state regulation.

>
>
>> Seriously- I feel this may be a critical moment to be thinking the
>> notion of US Government regulation or involvement in internet
>> infrastructure.  Fundamental concepts and principles, not just  
>> technical
>> implementation details.
> I hope not.

Well, at least the Obama campaign seems serious about getting  
government more involved...

So like it or not, (and from my post, I'm terribly uneasy about either  
Obama or McCain taking this on), it will be on the table in some way  
soon enough.

>
>
>> "If Obama Appoints a Tech Czar . . ." By Garrett M. Graff
>> http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/8378.html
>> "Names kicking around Silicon Valley and the tech community as CTO
>> candidates include Google?s Vint Cerf, one of the founders of the
>> Internet, Microsoft?s Steve Ballmer, Amazon?s Jeff Bezos, eBay  
>> founder
>> Pierre Omidyar, and Lotus pioneer Mitch Kapor."
> Wankers. Except for Kapor.

Perhaps- but I don't even think Kapor is really in a position to serve  
as a public servant in this way.

>
>
> <snip>

What, no comment on "Separation of Content and Infrastructure"?

>
>
>> Who has internet backbone?
> I dunno. But I can has cheezburger.

Oh- I guess that means you think content and infrastructure are the  
same.

>
>
> -alex
>
>


Thanks for the replies Alex- sry to shout you onto list here and put  
you on the spot...

Rocket-
.ike




From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Oct 31 15:15:04 2008
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:15:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
 Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <F42108D7-52ED-4A79-B80E-147CB64160FE@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810311454480.28579-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Many of us remember how various peering wars especially in the late 90's
> made aspects of using the internet difficult and unreliable, (latency
> and reliability issues).  Recent years, IMHO, have been much better-
> (though people on this list from various ISP's may say different :)
Not really, seems to happen about as often, you just stopped paying 
attention.

> Well, suddenly alarms are going off in my brain, yesterday's net hiccups
> feel like bad old times.
> 
> My DSL (Speakeasy) gets quite slow for small periods of time since
> yesterday.  OpenBSD 4.4 release today is coming down *slowly*.  My
> home-office telecommute work day is sucking rocks. My neighbor (Comcast
> Cable), reported less than 20k bandwidth for long periods of time last
> night.
Correlation does not imply causation.

> Admittedly unscientifically, from my endpoint --> traceroute to known
> points in NYC, now go through mzima where they used to always go through
> some level3 pipes- so I *believe* I'm not crazy to say the Sprint/Cogent
> de-peering affected my piddly DSL, (as it reportedly seems to affect a
> lot more people).
Yes, gamerz coming out from woodwork  and "OMG IM PINGIN 10"

> MY SMALL QUESTION (paging mr. Pilosoft...)
> 
> Cogent.  What's their deal?  Are they really the McBandwidth that people
> speak of?  Do they undercut the other carriers, as seems to be the
> legal/financial problem today- or are they a logical business
> manifestation in a market slow to change- (and in technology, I'm
> implying change moves with Moore's law)?
Yes and no.  They *were* the destructive-pricing leader, but nowadays, 
they are roughly par for the course. Cogent however is very much willing 
to play the blinking game - since both Cogent's and Sprint's customers are 
inconvenienced, both will be upset and demanding credits/etc - cogent 
however is much better at telling their customers to suck it. :)

>  From my view of available bandwidth in North America, all the big
> carriers have not met my expectations- none of them have had incentive
> to continue to invest in their infrastructure.  I know this is a huge
> and arguable notion, but the way that amortized expenditures have played
> out in the open market make an environment where carriers want to
> squeeze as much use out of any infrastructure deployed.
Sorry, can you make a more vague statement?

> Can anyone on list who deals with pipes from the datacenter perspective
> Clarify WTF is up with Cogent for a 'Colo consumer' like myself?
What's the question really? What is the fuck with cogent fails to parse.

> Is this de-peering related to the big economic meltdown in some tangible
> way?
Don't see how.

> I'm NOT saying this backbone/growth situation is an evil conspiracy,  
> (though the big carriers do have a trollish history of greed and  
> neglect); maintaining stability of the market as we know it can really  
> stifle growth, e.g.:
> 
> "Union Protests Verizon's Neglect Of Copper"
> (in favor of FIOS expendatures, 6 months ago)
> http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/93261
F unions. Seriously. Every single one of them needs to be disbanded, and 
leaders put in jail. But that's separate point.

> The workers seem to have had a valid point, (and are picketing more
> recently on similar lack-of-sane-resources issues).  However, as an end
> user, I need the coming fiber *like yesterday*.  And there is the rift.  
> Upgrades.
No, they just want moar money, more work, and monopoly in their work. They
can't care less about the customers.  They are upset VZ is letting go of
coppre techs, and too dumb to learn fiber. (Etiher that or VZ figured out
how to avoid hiring union people to deal with fiber).

> I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,
> American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-
> especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be
> supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade cycles.
We all held them accountable, with our wallets. It's called 'free market'.

> All the IT managers on list, at a myriad of tech and non-tech companies
> big and small, can understand tech growth strategies. With servers and
> computers, the cost of upgrade is commonly understood.  In healthy
> (lucky) environments, growth is even planned for- that's part of an IT
> manager's job.  We all get it. With that working understanding, the
> slow/expensive/unreliable offerings from internet carriers are truly
> frustrating.
It's complicated. Lack of clue is a general problem in this industry, but
this applies equally for carriers and customers, and dare to say, more
customers than carriers. Fortunately, in my experience, having clue on
*one* side of the relationship is generally sufficient to overcome lack of
clue on the other side. Hint hint.

> Those here who know me, know that for years I always argue for a sort of
> "Separation of Content and Infrastructure", which I argue is similar in
> it's aim to the US Constitutional "Separation of Church and State".
It's not about content. it is about separation of 'last mile' (which is a 
natural monopoly and should stay that way) and everything else. Telecom 
Act of 96 promised competition, but telcos managed to get around it while 
winning rights to long-distance operations.

> The myriad of other businesses the 'big backbone telcos' are running,
> (the wireleess phone mafia, ringtones, media/content distribution [think
> Viacom], CDN's, software/application/web development, etc...) This is as
> repressive as a world where Wall Mart was in charge of the roads and
> streets- what if Wall Mart built roads in place of the US Department of
> Transportation?
Er, I dunno. I think the roads would be better maintained, honestly. This
is somewhat a different subject. (As you might now, many toll roads are
now built and operated by commercial enterprises).

> Seriously- I feel this may be a critical moment to be thinking the
> notion of US Government regulation or involvement in internet
> infrastructure.  Fundamental concepts and principles, not just technical
> implementation details.
I hope not. 

> "If Obama Appoints a Tech Czar . . ." By Garrett M. Graff
> http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/8378.html
> "Names kicking around Silicon Valley and the tech community as CTO
> candidates include Google?s Vint Cerf, one of the founders of the
> Internet, Microsoft?s Steve Ballmer, Amazon?s Jeff Bezos, eBay founder
> Pierre Omidyar, and Lotus pioneer Mitch Kapor."
Wankers. Except for Kapor.

<snip>

> Who has internet backbone?
I dunno. But I can has cheezburger.

-alex



From spork at bway.net  Fri Oct 31 19:34:50 2008
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:34:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
 Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <490B535F.5000309@neuropunks.org>
References: <F42108D7-52ED-4A79-B80E-147CB64160FE@lesmuug.org>
	<490B535F.5000309@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810311915510.97292@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Max Gribov wrote:

> Im sure Alex has more interesting things to contribute to this, but i
> think this article illustrates the event pretty well:
> http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/10/wrestling-with-the-zombie-spri.shtml
>
> note how nasa has single homed networks both on spring and cogent - much
> lolz that is

Nice.

I've not followed the ups and downs of ISP dramas in a long time, but my 
gut feeling, even before reading the Renesys blog, was "oh, sprint still 
sells internets?".  Personally, I think this hurts Sprint the most.  My 
gut feeling is that they are something of a has-been in this market.

One thing that really has me wondering, and again, this is probably an 
Alex question, is an odd situation I ran into a few years back...  I was 
toying around with two providers - L3 and HE.  I primarily wanted HE as 
backup, since L3 was not really soaking us and they generally have their 
shit together outside of the management/sales/install realms.  No matter 
how much I prepended our HE announcement, I just could not squash the 
inbound traffic.  Apparently HE buys transit from Cogent and there are a 
TON of people that shove all outbound traffic down a Cogent link if they 
have one.  This is not that much of a surprise (the volume of traffic was 
though), but the thing that puzzled me when I ran a bunch of stuff through 
flow-tools was that I was seeing traffic from 1239 (Sprint) coming in 
through HE via Cogent.  I'm still puzzled as to what that was about - from 
my view, it looked like Sprint jamming traffic down Cogent rather than L3 
(I'm certain Sprint and L3 peer).

I think I had a point...  I think it's that Cogent is cheap not just 
because they're cheap, but because their business model and their network 
is built for $1k/100Mb connections.  Compare and contrast with sprint - 
Cogent doesn't screw around with T1s, DSL, T3s for the most part, they are 
just dropping fiber into big buildings and not screwing around with any 
last mile stuff that costs them time/money.  Sprint on the other hand 
likely has a majority of their customers hanging off of ILEC loops...  It 
all just seems much more expensive and high-touch compared to Cogent.  And 
who can more easily tell their customers to piss off about this?  Sprint? 
Will they tell some shmuck paying $1K/month for a T1 that they can't have 
a refund?  Can cogent say the same to someone paying $1K/month for 100Mb/s 
of bandwidth?

Cogent wins...

C


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 18:08:07 2008
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:08:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
	Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <512F3A48-3261-4C45-A8E6-8B863C3D9101@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810311454480.28579-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<512F3A48-3261-4C45-A8E6-8B863C3D9101@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30810311508t2ea88c6di1f210d2be086cb41@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> Hi Alex,
>
> On Oct 31, 2008, at 3:15 PM, Alex Pilosov wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>> I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,
>>> American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-
>>> especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be
>>> supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade
>>> cycles.
>> We all held them accountable, with our wallets. It's called 'free
>> market'.
>
> I'm no economist, but didn't the raw free market, and Freedman-style
> economics, just wholly collapse?

not even close, check out the Weirmar republic or whatever they are
calling Rhodisa now for economic collapse.

>>> The myriad of other businesses the 'big backbone telcos' are running,
>>> (the wireleess phone mafia, ringtones, media/content distribution
>>> [think
>>> Viacom], CDN's, software/application/web development, etc...) This
>>> is as
>>> repressive as a world where Wall Mart was in charge of the roads and
>>> streets- what if Wall Mart built roads in place of the US
>>> Department of
>>> Transportation?
>> Er, I dunno. I think the roads would be better maintained, honestly.
>> This
>> is somewhat a different subject. (As you might now, many toll roads
>> are
>> now built and operated by commercial enterprises).
>
> Er, argueable, and I wholly (respectfully) disagree.
>
> For examples, I-75 and I-95 in Florida, both toll roads, blow chunks.

Interstats are federal roads, built during the cold war to help us
kill the heathen commies by letting us move troops and such around
after WWIII

They were modeled after the autobonn but built cheaper.  Now having
been on parts of the autobonn they are some nice roads.  The way they
are build is the german gov puts out a RFP for building a road from A
to B that is so big.  Only Large firms are allowed to bid on it, ones
that will be there during the life of the road.  The company that wins
the bid builds the road and is then stuck maintaining it for 20-30
years at a low fixed cost, so build cheap and you will loose huge
amounts of money over the life of the road.

>
> Private (toll) highways in southern California don't solve traffic
> congestion problems, they simply create land use monopolies.

It also depends on how you structure the tolls and it also depends on
the contract they have with the local gov, city-journal.org had some
interesting articles on the subject 6-12 months ago.

>
> And even the (proposed and actual) tolls for NYC-Metro roads are run
> by Port Authority, a quasi-government agency subject to *heavy* city/
> state regulation.

the port authority is a government agency, it is just structured in
such a way as to not be responsible to the citizens and it has the
added advantage of allowing the state to hide massive debt that it is
responsible for but "no on the books".  And lets not forget the
patronage jobs.

>
>>
>>
>>> Seriously- I feel this may be a critical moment to be thinking the
>>> notion of US Government regulation or involvement in internet
>>> infrastructure.  Fundamental concepts and principles, not just
>>> technical
>>> implementation details.
>> I hope not.
>
> Well, at least the Obama campaign seems serious about getting
> government more involved...

this is a good thing????  EVER?????

>
> So like it or not, (and from my post, I'm terribly uneasy about either
> Obama or McCain taking this on), it will be on the table in some way
> soon enough.
>
>>
>>
>>> "If Obama Appoints a Tech Czar . . ." By Garrett M. Graff
>>> http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/8378.html
>>> "Names kicking around Silicon Valley and the tech community as CTO
>>> candidates include Google's Vint Cerf, one of the founders of the
>>> Internet, Microsoft's Steve Ballmer, Amazon's Jeff Bezos, eBay
>>> founder
>>> Pierre Omidyar, and Lotus pioneer Mitch Kapor."
>> Wankers. Except for Kapor.
>
> Perhaps- but I don't even think Kapor is really in a position to serve
> as a public servant in this way.

looking back on the drug Czar, it will raise my taxes and make my life
more difficult.  Gov likes problems, fixing them could shut down whole
branches of the fed and/or local gov.  Why would a career bureaucrat
cut his own throat like that, and why would the people next to him let
him cut theirs as well?

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Oct 31 20:13:59 2008
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:13:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
 Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.64.0810311915510.97292@toasty.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810312002550.20036-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Nice.
> 
> I've not followed the ups and downs of ISP dramas in a long time, but my
> gut feeling, even before reading the Renesys blog, was "oh, sprint still
> sells internets?".  Personally, I think this hurts Sprint the most.  My
> gut feeling is that they are something of a has-been in this market.
It's complicated. Despite being a "has-been", sprint maintains the "we
will not peer with you" reputation, and is the "hardest to establish
settlement-free peering" carrier. As a result, many people end up using
only Sprint for transit (or, "the only transit we will admit to having"),
so they *can* get other peering (it's a bit complicated - basically, if
your transit is an existing peer, you won't get peering), in effect,
helping Sprint maintain this status.

> One thing that really has me wondering, and again, this is probably an 
> Alex question, is an odd situation I ran into a few years back...  I was 
> toying around with two providers - L3 and HE.  I primarily wanted HE as 
> backup, since L3 was not really soaking us and they generally have their 
> shit together outside of the management/sales/install realms.  No matter 
> how much I prepended our HE announcement, I just could not squash the 
> inbound traffic.  Apparently HE buys transit from Cogent and there are a 
> TON of people that shove all outbound traffic down a Cogent link if they 
> have one.  This is not that much of a surprise (the volume of traffic was 
*snicker* Yes, cogent is the "transit we use for outbound but we won't
admit to it".

The answer, of course, is not prepending it, but setting community flags 
telling HE to not announce this route to cogent, or to depreference your 
route while announcing to cogent, or some such. I don't know the community 
list for HE.

> though), but the thing that puzzled me when I ran a bunch of stuff
> through flow-tools was that I was seeing traffic from 1239 (Sprint)
> coming in through HE via Cogent.  I'm still puzzled as to what that was
> about - from my view, it looked like Sprint jamming traffic down Cogent
> rather than L3 (I'm certain Sprint and L3 peer).
It's complicated without looking at more details. You can't say where it 
*really* came from. What *could* be easily happening is that someone (X) 
only uses Sprint for inbound - so you see them behind Sprint. However, 
X uses everyone else for outbound (including Cogent), who will obviously 
send it toward HE (paying customer).



From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Oct 31 22:07:45 2008
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:07:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
 Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <512F3A48-3261-4C45-A8E6-8B863C3D9101@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810312014190.20036-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008, Isaac Levy wrote:

> >> My DSL (Speakeasy) gets quite slow for small periods of time since
> >> yesterday.  OpenBSD 4.4 release today is coming down *slowly*.  My
> >> home-office telecommute work day is sucking rocks. My neighbor
> >> (Comcast Cable), reported less than 20k bandwidth for long periods of
> >> time last night.
> > Correlation does not imply causation.
> 
> Er, it does imply, but your sentiment is correct if I modify-
> correlation does not confirm causation.
Correlation does not imply causation. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

I'm right, you are wrong, wikipedia says so.

> >> Admittedly unscientifically, from my endpoint --> traceroute to known
> >> points in NYC, now go through mzima where they used to always go
> >> through some level3 pipes- so I *believe* I'm not crazy to say the
> >> Sprint/ Cogent de-peering affected my piddly DSL, (as it reportedly
> >> seems to affect a lot more people).
> > Yes, gamerz coming out from woodwork and "OMG IM PINGIN 10"
> lol
I missed mzima in the above sentence. That's where lulz is.

> After years of (happily) paying ISP's, I see little change or
> explanation from ISP's for why speeds/quality/reliability remains the
> same.
Disagree. People think that Interwebs is now a mission-critical service, 
and demand 100% availability. They are getting close to it now. Whereas, 5 
years ago, it was quite different and people were not really expecting 
100%.

> I see old networking gear, and a massive multi-billion dollar business
> maintaining a status quo which I'm not happy about.
Point fingers, please.

> Examples:
> ISP's getting into the CDN business: AT&T, XO, Internap, etc...
Nothing wrong with that, it's where the money is. Means new builds for CDN
etc.

> Network Providers focused on ringtones: Telewest, Sprint, AT&T
That's where the money is.

> Network Providers marry Media (Content) Businesses: AT&T, Quest, Verizon
VZ doesn't have own content (AFAIK). Neither does Qwest. You probably
meant to say "Time Warner" or "Comcast" (who owns both content and pipes).

> None of this free market has opened up the market for various content
> businesses to use the internet, however my point here is that none of it
> has made our providers re-invest significantly in their own networks
> either.
What data do you have that providers don't "re-invest significantly in
their own networks", I'm dying to know.

As far as free market for content - I don't think there's been a better 
time. See all pr0n companies, none of them have any problems delivering 
their content to end user.

> I was thinking Sprint may have been going around rattling cages to cut
> costs and make their next quarters numbers...  Not a conspiracy, but as
> the market is down...
Doubt anyone in Sprint corporate even *knows* about sprint internet 
transit. It is such a tiny portion of their revenue, I doubt they finance 
people care.

> My point here, is that upgrading the networks seems to be happening in
> big waves- instead of a more cumulative or calculated manner- and
> therefore has pains.
Explain what you mean by waves of upgrade, and how are they different from 
cumulative or calculated. 

> When I worked on the web-hosting ISP, we had a life-span for each server
> accounted for in advance, and rough estimates on what the tech (and
> service offerings) would be a couple of years down the road.  It worked
> out peachy- servers, storage, etc... all could cumulatively grow and
> change as technology advanced.
There's no lifespan of networking gear. It stays in service until it is 
unable to handle traffic passing through it. There's nothing wrong with 
that. If traffic is not increasing and there are no additional feature 
requirements, it'll stay. 

> >> I would argue that to continue to compete and grow internationally,
> >> American businesses desperately need increased bandwidth all around-
> >> especially at the datacenter.  I argue that carriers need to be
> >> supported in, as well as held accountable for, planning upgrade
> >> cycles.
> > We all held them accountable, with our wallets. It's called 'free
> > market'.
> 
> I'm no economist, but didn't the raw free market, and Freedman-style
> economics, just wholly collapse?
I wouldn't quite put it like that just yet. We won't have whole picture 
until a year from now, at least.

> But if a company has a network application which drives their business,
> and the network sucks/fails, it's out of their hands, right?  It becomes
> a surprise cost, and everyone down the chain is affected by the big
> carriers decision making?
Wrong. It means you didn't build *your* network right, didn't multihome 
properly. If the network is *so* critical to your business, you owe it to 
plan for your carrier's failures - just like you plan for your own 
equipment to fail.

> I would argue that the US Govt. was far too immature with where networks
> were going to even legislate, back then- and perhaps now?
Sorta. Reed Hundt's FCC was actually fairly sensible and visionary.

<snip>


> Well, at least the Obama campaign seems serious about getting government
> more involved...
I really don't want to get into that...

> What, no comment on "Separation of Content and Infrastructure"?
I don't think there's a problem with it. If content merges with a network, 
nothing's wrong. It's when you get into the monopoly (or duopoly) 
situation, problems happen.

> >> Who has internet backbone?
> > I dunno. But I can has cheezburger.
> 
> Oh- I guess that means you think content and infrastructure are the
> same.
No, I mean that this thread has not enough lulz. So here's a picture of a 
firewall: 
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/funny-pictures-furwall-prevents-unauthorized-access.jpg

-alex



From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com  Fri Oct 31 22:20:45 2008
From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:20:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cogent and Sprint - a signal of things getting
 Oldschool?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30810311508t2ea88c6di1f210d2be086cb41@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0810311454480.28579-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>	<512F3A48-3261-4C45-A8E6-8B863C3D9101@lesmuug.org>
	<8c50a3c30810311508t2ea88c6di1f210d2be086cb41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490BBCFD.20202@belovedarctos.com>

Marc Spitzer wrote:
> Interstats are federal roads, built during the cold war to help us
> kill the heathen commies by letting us move troops and such around
> after WWIII
I never understood this, wouldn't it have been more efficient build 
tracks?  I am sure GM was involved.

-Bjorn