From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 17:15:47 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 17:15:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] interesting thing found in ports, wonder what else is there? Message-ID: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/www/ach/pkg-descr Port description for www/ach A software companion to a 30+ year-old CIA research methodology, Open Source Analysis of Competing Hypotheses (ACH) will help you think objectively and logically about overwhelming amounts of data and hypotheses. It can also guide research teams toward more productive discussions by identifying the exact points of contention. WWW: http://www.competinghypotheses.org/ So what other gems are there in ports, whats your favorite odd tool? thanks, marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From george at ceetonetechnology.com Thu Sep 1 17:29:44 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:29:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] interesting thing found in ports, wonder what else is there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5FF948.8050507@ceetonetechnology.com> On 09/01/11 17:15, Marc Spitzer wrote: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/www/ach/pkg-descr > > Port description for www/ach > > A software companion to a 30+ year-old CIA research methodology, > Open Source Analysis of Competing Hypotheses (ACH) will help you > think objectively and logically about overwhelming amounts of data > and hypotheses. It can also guide research teams toward more > productive discussions by identifying the exact points of contention. > > WWW: http://www.competinghypotheses.org/ > > So what other gems are there in ports, whats your favorite odd tool? Cool. Very cool. Have you done anything with it? I try to watch csup on FreeBSD regularly to try to catch interesting ports. Haven't used it much in a long while, but net-mgmt/driftnet is a lot of fun. You basically sniff and view JPG files floating by on the wire. It's the type of app that makes me want to sit in a classroom. George From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 20:30:11 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:30:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] interesting thing found in ports, wonder what else is there? In-Reply-To: <4E5FF948.8050507@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4E5FF948.8050507@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:29 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > On 09/01/11 17:15, Marc Spitzer wrote: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/www/ach/pkg-descr >> >> Port description for www/ach >> >> A software companion to a 30+ year-old CIA research methodology, >> Open Source Analysis of Competing Hypotheses (ACH) will help you >> think objectively and logically about overwhelming amounts of data >> and hypotheses. It can also guide research teams toward more >> productive discussions by identifying the exact points of contention. >> >> WWW: http://www.competinghypotheses.org/ >> >> So what other gems are there in ports, whats your favorite odd tool? > > Cool. ?Very cool. ?Have you done anything with it? > > I try to watch csup on FreeBSD regularly to try to catch interesting ports. > > Haven't used it much in a long while, but net-mgmt/driftnet is a lot of fun. > > You basically sniff and view JPG files floating by on the wire. > > It's the type of app that makes me want to sit in a classroom. > > George > Have not done anything with it, just came across it today and it looked cool so I am trying to start an interesting thread yea remember seeing driftnet at defcon marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From akosela at andykosela.com Fri Sep 2 06:03:31 2011 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:03:31 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] interesting thing found in ports, wonder what else is there? In-Reply-To: References: <4E5FF948.8050507@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:29 PM, George Rosamond > wrote: >> On 09/01/11 17:15, Marc Spitzer wrote: >>> >>> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/www/ach/pkg-descr >>> >>> Port description for www/ach >>> >>> A software companion to a 30+ year-old CIA research methodology, >>> Open Source Analysis of Competing Hypotheses (ACH) will help you >>> think objectively and logically about overwhelming amounts of data >>> and hypotheses. It can also guide research teams toward more >>> productive discussions by identifying the exact points of contention. >>> >>> WWW: http://www.competinghypotheses.org/ >>> >>> So what other gems are there in ports, whats your favorite odd tool? >> >> Cool. ?Very cool. ?Have you done anything with it? >> >> I try to watch csup on FreeBSD regularly to try to catch interesting ports. >> >> Haven't used it much in a long while, but net-mgmt/driftnet is a lot of fun. >> >> You basically sniff and view JPG files floating by on the wire. >> >> It's the type of app that makes me want to sit in a classroom. >> >> George >> > > Have not done anything with it, just came across it today and it > looked cool so I am trying to start an interesting thread > > yea remember seeing driftnet at defcon +1 for driftnet. It's definetly much fun. --Andy From ike at blackskyresearch.net Fri Sep 2 09:52:45 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 09:52:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] interesting thing found in ports, wonder what else is there? In-Reply-To: References: <4E5FF948.8050507@ceetonetechnology.com>

Message-ID: <201109021353.p82Dr34m012859@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 2, 2011, at 6:03 AM, Andy Kosela wrote: > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 5:29 PM, George Rosamond >> wrote: >>> On 09/01/11 17:15, Marc Spitzer wrote: >>>> >>>> ach/pkg-descr Man, I could use this every day to make less of a chore of filtering out 90% of what I'm told about computing. >>> >>> net-mgmt/driftnet >>> George >>> >> >> yea remember seeing driftnet at defcon > > +1 for driftnet. It's definetly much fun. > > --Andy It's fun indeed- as with any sniffer, be prepared to see things you may not have wanted to. :) Rocket- .ike From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 20:08:36 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 20:08:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dell does something interesting Message-ID: Dell Launches "Fortuna" -- Via Nano-based Server for Hyperscale Customers http://en.community.dell.com/dell-blogs/direct2dell/b/direct2dell/archive/2009/05/19/dell-launches-quot-fortuna-quot-via-nano-based-server-for-hyperscale-customers.aspx marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From izaac at setec.org Sun Sep 4 08:52:40 2011 From: izaac at setec.org (Izaac) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 08:52:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dell does something interesting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110904T124039Z@localhost> On Sat, Sep 03, 2011 at 08:08:36PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote: > Dell Launches "Fortuna" -- Via Nano-based Server for Hyperscale Customers Yeah, Fortuna never really went anywhere. What Dell does have is the C5000 series, which it arguably inspired. But that's really more of a "traditional" blade than anything. -- . ___ ___ . . ___ . \ / |\ |\ \ . _\_ /__ |-\ |-\ \__ From ike at blackskyresearch.net Wed Sep 7 18:49:20 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 18:49:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Passwords Message-ID: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> So fantastic: http://xkcd.com/936/ From mspitzer at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 20:23:04 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 20:23:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Passwords In-Reply-To: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: and another http://xkcd.com/538/ On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > So fantastic: > > http://xkcd.com/936/ > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From chsnyder at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 11:03:51 2011 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:03:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Passwords In-Reply-To: References: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > and another http://xkcd.com/538/ > That one is much more astute. > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > http://xkcd.com/936/ I've been turning this over in my head ever since I first saw that strip. If Alice knows that Bob reads xkcd and believes everything that Randall Munroe says, then she can build a password cracker that uses dictionary words as tokens and p0wn him in a relatively short amount of time. Still, yes, it's better to use "correct horse battery staple" than "asdf123". From nick at hackermonkey.com Thu Sep 8 11:38:38 2011 From: nick at hackermonkey.com (Nick Danger) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 11:38:38 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Passwords In-Reply-To: References: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <4E68E17E.7000102@hackermonkey.com> On 09/08/2011 11:03 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: > Still, yes, it's better to use "correct horse battery staple" than "asdf123". Somebody change the combination on my luggage! From jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com Thu Sep 8 11:58:48 2011 From: jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com (Jerry Altzman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:58:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Passwords In-Reply-To: <4E68E17E.7000102@hackermonkey.com> References: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> <4E68E17E.7000102@hackermonkey.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 11:38, Nick Danger wrote: > On 09/08/2011 11:03 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: > >> Still, yes, it's better to use "correct horse battery staple" than >> "asdf123". > > Somebody change the combination on my luggage! "asdf123? That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard of in my life! That's the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!" Sorry, needed to be said. //jbaltz -- jerry b. altzman jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com +1 718 763 7405 x112 http://www.linkedin.com/in/lorvax twitter: @jbaltz3phase -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bcully at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 12:01:21 2011 From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 12:01:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Passwords In-Reply-To: References: <201109072250.p87Mo3gn020749@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On Sep 8, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Chris Snyder wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: >> http://xkcd.com/936/ > > I've been turning this over in my head ever since I first saw that > strip. If Alice knows that Bob reads xkcd and believes everything that > Randall Munroe says, then she can build a password cracker that uses > dictionary words as tokens and p0wn him in a relatively short amount > of time. No you couldn't. That's the point. There are a lot of words in the dictionary: > natasya:~/src/jnctn/puppet-modules% wc -l /usr/share/dict/words > 235886 /usr/share/dict/words That's about 21 bits of entropy if you use the whole dictionary. His 11 bits assumes ~2k common words. Four of them makes for 44 bits of entropy, which is rather better than what most of use with l33t-sp33k passwords. -bjc From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sat Sep 10 12:20:30 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:20:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. Message-ID: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Hi All, I know this has been a topic before, but: Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? Context: Folks that know me, know that I like making diagrams, and care a lot about visual communication. I've been using OmniGraffle for many years (an amazing tool), on the Apple platform for many years- but it's time for some change... I'm working in a heterogeneous *NIX environment, and I have a need to collaborate with colleagues on documentation. No Omni for most people, and even the Mac users are reticent to sink any time into learn. Not rocket science stuff, not political, I simply need to find common and accessible tools for what I consider to be a fundamental part of process, (making diagrams). (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). Not Appropriate Tools: UML-specific tools are not appropriate, and no matter how much I love GraphVis, it's a graphing tool- not a drawing tool. However, it would be awesome to *import* GraphVis .dot files, and then move/arrange/edit by hand... Gimp/Inkscape/etc... is not appropriate, diagrams are *very* hard to maintain as raster/vector artwork- a good diagram tool is intuitive and fast when working with shapes and lines- not art/graphics. -- So far, I started with Dia, http://live.gnome.org/Dia/ Running it now- and I'm recoiling at loosing all my mac/graphics command keys, (I grew up on PaintWorksPlus and have Photoshop 1.0 disks in some box here somewhere... But that's my muscle-memory problem to overcome here :) Does anyone use/know anything else? Any thoughts welcome and appreciated, I'm about to sink a few months into biting this bullet! Best, .ike From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sat Sep 10 14:48:53 2011 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:48:53 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <4E6BB115.3040704@belovedarctos.com> On 9/10/2011 12:20 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Not Appropriate Tools: > UML-specific tools are not appropriate, and no matter how much I love GraphVis, it's a graphing tool- not a drawing tool. However, it would be awesome to *import* GraphVis .dot files, and then move/arrange/edit by hand... > Although, you say dot is not what you are looking for, but have you tried it on a wiki that has a plugin that will render dot syntax? It's a bit easier to collaborate with, this way. http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/DirectedGraphPlugin -Bjorn From jschauma at netmeister.org Sat Sep 10 14:59:37 2011 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:59:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII > art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). I'm gonna second that one. Actually "drawing" ascii can be a bit of a pain, but that makes you actually think about the relationships and visuals a bit more. And you can just check them in to your VCS and even plain diff them. Another perfectly reasonable solution I've found is to draw the diagram by hand on a piece of paper (if you like, even on a napkin) and scan it in. Or whiteboard plus photo. :-) Hmm, if you have the $$, interactive whiteboards like the SMART board (http://is.gd/77Wofl) are really cool. None of these lend themselves to collaborative illustration, I'm afraid. But then again, I also like Dijkstra's quote: "Every time someone draws a picture to explain a program, it is a sign that something is not understood." -Jan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 15:27:49 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:27:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: Ike, On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). Well I have had good luck with ditaa, ascii art on png steroids, http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/ and I do the drawing in emacs artist mode, everything is imbedded in emacs org mode document that can be saved as latex, html and I think open office format thanks, marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From akosela at andykosela.com Sat Sep 10 16:15:53 2011 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:15:53 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII >> art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). > > I'm gonna second that one. ?Actually "drawing" ascii can be a bit of a > pain, but that makes you actually think about the relationships and > visuals a bit more. ?And you can just check them in to your VCS and even > plain diff them. Speaking about ASCII art, does anyone know some command line program that make creating ASCII diagrams and tables a bit less of a pain? I usually do it just in vi(1) manually, but I guess there are more automated tools for that out there... --Andy From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 16:23:40 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:23:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Andy Kosela wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > > Speaking about ASCII art, does anyone know some command line program > that make creating ASCII diagrams and tables a bit less of a pain? > > I usually do it just in vi(1) manually, but I guess there are more > automated tools for that out there... > emacs artist mode makes this fairly simple marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sat Sep 10 17:59:42 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:59:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> On 09/10/11 16:23, Marc Spitzer wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Andy Kosela wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: >> >> Speaking about ASCII art, does anyone know some command line program >> that make creating ASCII diagrams and tables a bit less of a pain? >> >> I usually do it just in vi(1) manually, but I guess there are more >> automated tools for that out there... >> > > emacs artist mode makes this fairly simple Remarkable how this list can transform a simple query into a good discussion so often. I converted to the OmniGraffle thing a while ago, and think it's the best GUI app out there for it still. I'll tinker with OOo/Libre on occasion. Dia is a PITA, IMHO, or at least my past experiences were not fun. Felt too clunky for the purposes. OmniGraffle has a certain elegance that Dia just didn't match. Interested to look into Bjorn's solution. . . that seems to best match the original question. But ASCII art. . . LMAO. That's fine for decent techs collaborating, but hardly presentable. Although diffs add to the utility. g From jschauma at netmeister.org Sat Sep 10 18:40:13 2011 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:40:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> George Rosamond wrote: > But ASCII art. . . LMAO. That's fine for decent techs collaborating, > but hardly presentable. Although diffs add to the utility. Hey, if it's good enough for RFCs... But yes, depends on the audience. -Jan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sat Sep 10 18:41:16 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:41:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <4E6BE78C.8040909@ceetonetechnology.com> On 09/10/11 18:40, Jan Schaumann wrote: > George Rosamond wrote: > >> But ASCII art. . . LMAO. That's fine for decent techs collaborating, >> but hardly presentable. Although diffs add to the utility. > > Hey, if it's good enough for RFCs... > > But yes, depends on the audience. You're right, of course. For techs collaborating, it works. I'm thinking of the more infographic-type purposes and presentations. The idea of ASCII art covering my walls sounds like a headache. g From jeff at jeffmau.com Sat Sep 10 18:44:12 2011 From: jeff at jeffmau.com (jeff at jeffmau.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:44:12 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <11D0B892-B882-4087-A5AA-AA9519936BC9@jeffmau.com> Pen and paper, Ike. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 10, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > George Rosamond wrote: > >> But ASCII art. . . LMAO. That's fine for decent techs collaborating, >> but hardly presentable. Although diffs add to the utility. > > Hey, if it's good enough for RFCs... > > But yes, depends on the audience. > > -Jan > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From yusuke at cs.nyu.edu Sat Sep 10 20:59:45 2011 From: yusuke at cs.nyu.edu (Yusuke Shinyama) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:59:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <20110911005945.21458.22394.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:20:30 -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? I'm happily sticking with Tgif for more than a decade. For simple black-and-white figures, this will do the job: http://bourbon.usc.edu/tgif/ Yusuke From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sun Sep 11 12:31:24 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:31:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <201109111632.p8BGW3fq023540@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 10, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII >> art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). > > I'm gonna second that one. Actually "drawing" ascii can be a bit of a > pain, but that makes you actually think about the relationships and > visuals a bit more. And you can just check them in to your VCS and even > plain diff them. Agreed, I do think ASCII art is a powerful way to embed well-defined concepts diagrams in text, yet it has limits, On Sep 10, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > George Rosamond wrote: > >> But ASCII art. . . LMAO. That's fine for decent techs collaborating, >> but hardly presentable. Although diffs add to the utility. > > Hey, if it's good enough for RFCs... Excellent example on page 1: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc768.txt Epic [page 22]: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc793.txt > > But yes, depends on the audience. The process of using ASCII art is like carving something in stone. I believe, beyond the audience, the choice to create ASCII art depends on the material. ASCII art is physically limited to character size, etc... so embedding small, well defined ideas in a document or man page is really fantastic. However, I can't see myself working with the following subjects as ASCII: - Physical/Logical Network Topologies - 'full-stack' Network/Web Application Interactions, e.g.: - (N) L7 load balancers talking to (N) app and (N) DB/Data services - Digrams where photo imports of physical things (machines, or whiteboards etc...) can be a critical way to communicate a design These things take serious time to represent in ASCII, and are extremely difficult to maintain! (oops, we need to add 1 more thing in the LH side there, we need to re-draw everything right of it!..) ASCII is not good for easily maintaining ongoing documentation for large/complicated/messy things. > > Another perfectly reasonable solution I've found is to draw the diagram > by hand on a piece of paper (if you like, even on a napkin) and scan it > in. Or whiteboard plus photo. :-) Whiteboard + the camera-phone in everyone's pocket = Awesome. Common newer cameras have resolutions completely capable of dealing with small details coming from the fat tip of a dry-erase marker. My favorite time of the day is to spend time alone with a whiteboard, working out existing problems or new ideas- but they're not always presentable or > > Hmm, if you have the $$, interactive whiteboards like the SMART board > (http://is.gd/77Wofl) are really cool. Cool indeed, but I've spent more time with people in meetings getting the darned things to work, than focusing on the work... > > None of these lend themselves to collaborative illustration, I'm afraid. > But then again, I also like Dijkstra's quote: > > "Every time someone draws a picture to explain a program, it is a sign > that something is not understood." Ha! Point taken! There's as much bad/useless info-porn in the world as there is bad/useless software. However, he bulk of EWD's amazing life's work was written with a fountain pen on paper, he discouraged the use of computers in writing computer programs altogether. There's a lot that EWD has written or said which blows my mind, but this quite absolute statement is not one of them- on so many levels. Not every necessary program or idea can be well understood, even by a sole creator of a program. Regarding diagrams: some people are visual communicators, some auditory, some react strongly to tactile inputs, etc. "...you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras." Alan Kay, 1997 OOPSLA Keynote Best, .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sun Sep 11 12:31:49 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:31:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <201109111632.p8BGW3r5023552@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 10, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > Ike, > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: >> (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). > > Well I have had good luck with ditaa, ascii art on png steroids, > http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/ > > and I do the drawing in emacs artist mode, everything is imbedded in > emacs org mode document that can be saved as latex, html and I think > open office format > > thanks, > > marc Bizzarre- I'm going to try this tool after my ASCII rant, just because it looks fun. Not sure it'll do the job I want though :) The immediacy of visual communications is here, quite hampered by 'compiling' the work. Rocket- .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sun Sep 11 12:31:09 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:31:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <4E6BB115.3040704@belovedarctos.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <4E6BB115.3040704@belovedarctos.com> Message-ID: <201109111632.p8BGW3wf023543@rs134.luxsci.com> Wow, surprising number of responses to that thread! On Sep 10, 2011, at 2:48 PM, Bjorn Nelson wrote: > On 9/10/2011 12:20 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: >> Not Appropriate Tools: >> UML-specific tools are not appropriate, and no matter how much I love GraphVis, it's a graphing tool- not a drawing tool. However, it would be awesome to *import* GraphVis .dot files, and then move/arrange/edit by hand... >> > Although, you say dot is not what you are looking for, but have you tried it on a wiki that has a plugin that will render dot syntax? It's a bit easier to collaborate with, this way. > > http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/DirectedGraphPlugin > > -Bjorn I installed this a few years ago in a twiki I inherited, it's pretty slick indeed. GraphVis itself is totally underrated and simple to work with, (yet another great gift from Bell Labs). However, I'm not so worried about the collaborative mechanism, as long as the files are digital- (email, version control, file server, etc...) collaborating is not the problem I need to solve now. I really want to find a good visual tool: I love graphs and GraphVis in particular, but making drawings through any form of markup is just so counter-intuitive to me, when the diagram is the subject of the work- (not an output of some other work, or some form of markup/code). -- If I go this markup route, than I may as well just bust out LaTeX and get busy... Best, .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sun Sep 11 12:32:31 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:32:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <11D0B892-B882-4087-A5AA-AA9519936BC9@jeffmau.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> <11D0B892-B882-4087-A5AA-AA9519936BC9@jeffmau.com> Message-ID: <201109111633.p8BGX3j2024403@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 10, 2011, at 6:44 PM, jeff at jeffmau.com wrote: > Pen and paper, Ike. > > Cheers, > Jeff Ha! You and I have been having this discussion for like 15 years now Jeff :) -- There's actually a ton of paper in my world too, (all of it gets scanned regularly), plus time alone with a whiteboard and phone-camera are pretty amazing for working through and capturing ideas. However, I've come to draw a line where I take it to the computer: - Whenever there are many variants/multiples in the diagram - copy/paste is just way faster than drawing - visual libraries can be kept for later re-use (e.g. a server, a service abstract, a design pattern) - Whenever there may be many variants of the diagram itself - Design A vs. Design B - Unknown Details from a bigger picture (diagrams quickly help me find weak or ill-understood parts of larger systems) - Whenever the subject spans multiple layers, (OSI, Logical/Physical topology, etc...) - the idea of drawing layers saves a profound amount of time (overhead transparency film would be a solution, but...) - Whenever the output needs to be shared with others, weather collaborators or outside parties - difficult to get people to address hand-drawn notes, line weights from pen-drawn diagrams are not often legible when displayed from a video projector or even some remote screen resolution I could never have considered. Best, .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sun Sep 11 12:32:26 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:32:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <201109111633.p8BGX3On024399@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 10, 2011, at 5:59 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > Remarkable how this list can transform a simple query into a good discussion so often. > > I converted to the OmniGraffle thing a while ago, and think it's the best GUI app out there for it still. I'll tinker with OOo/Libre on occasion. /sigh Graffle is really quite amazing. I'd absolutely pay for an X11 copy of the app, but since they make such heavy use of the Apple core graphics frameworks, I'd think this port would be damn near impossible for them. > > Dia is a PITA, Spent time finding this out yesterday, after digging out a 3-button mouse to do it up proper. > IMHO, or at least my past experiences were not fun. Felt too clunky for the purposes. OmniGraffle has a certain elegance that Dia just didn't match. Sadly, Dia is still the front-runner replacement for me- going to invest some more time in it before I drop it. > > Interested to look into Bjorn's solution. . . that seems to best match the original question. Sortof, but not really- markup and drawing are very different to me. Go LaTeX. Rocket- .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Sun Sep 11 12:33:28 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:33:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110911005945.21458.22394.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110911005945.21458.22394.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu> Message-ID: <201109111634.p8BGY3xr025215@rs134.luxsci.com> Thanks Yusuke!!!, On Sep 10, 2011, at 8:59 PM, Yusuke Shinyama wrote: > On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:20:30 -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: >> Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? > > I'm happily sticking with Tgif for more than a decade. > For simple black-and-white figures, this will do the job: > http://bourbon.usc.edu/tgif/ > > Yusuke That's exactly the kind of tool I'm looking to try, installing it from ports now, to line up next to Dia... Best, .ike From spork at bway.net Sun Sep 11 13:24:03 2011 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 13:24:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109111633.p8BGX3j2024403@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> <20110910224012.GE14331@netmeister.org> <11D0B892-B882-4087-A5AA-AA9519936BC9@jeffmau.com> <201109111633.p8BGX3j2024403@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <118207F0-F2A4-43F2-BDDD-AEBB390FC9FB@bway.net> On Sep 11, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On Sep 10, 2011, at 6:44 PM, jeff at jeffmau.com wrote: > >> Pen and paper, Ike. >> >> Cheers, >> Jeff > > Ha! You and I have been having this discussion for like 15 years now Jeff :) > > -- > There's actually a ton of paper in my world too, (all of it gets scanned regularly), plus time alone with a whiteboard and phone-camera are pretty amazing for working through and capturing ideas. > > However, I've come to draw a line where I take it to the computer: I find it bizarre that in this day and age there is not a simple way to sketch something on a napkin or whiteboard, scan it or take a picture of it, and import it into Visio/OmniGraffle/Dia/whatever. When you think about most diagrams, the elements are pretty simple - boxes, ovals, clouds, arrows and lines (and text, but I'd rather type that). OCR has been around for ages. As a visual person, I find it frustrating that I can't combine the "input method" that I find easiest (drawing on something physical, and NOT a wacom) and import that to a computer for touch-up, labels, and further editing. I just find doing the initial draft on screen to be really frustrating and counter-intuitive. The whiteboard + phone camera thing sounds like something I should be finding on smartphone app stores really - take a pic, it gets uploaded and processed server-side and then emailed to you when done. Sometimes it's really frustrating not being a programmer. Charles > > - Whenever there are many variants/multiples in the diagram > - copy/paste is just way faster than drawing > - visual libraries can be kept for later re-use > (e.g. a server, a service abstract, a design pattern) > > - Whenever there may be many variants of the diagram itself > - Design A vs. Design B > - Unknown Details from a bigger picture > (diagrams quickly help me find weak or ill-understood parts of larger systems) > > - Whenever the subject spans multiple layers, (OSI, Logical/Physical topology, etc...) > - the idea of drawing layers saves a profound amount of time > (overhead transparency film would be a solution, but...) > > - Whenever the output needs to be shared with others, weather collaborators or outside parties > - difficult to get people to address hand-drawn notes, line weights from pen-drawn diagrams are not often legible when displayed from a video projector or even some remote screen resolution I could never have considered. > > Best, > .ike > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 14:42:34 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:42:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109111634.p8BGY3xr025215@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110911005945.21458.22394.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu> <201109111634.p8BGY3xr025215@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Thanks Yusuke!!!, > > On Sep 10, 2011, at 8:59 PM, Yusuke Shinyama wrote: > >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:20:30 -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: >>> ?Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? >> >> I'm happily sticking with Tgif for more than a decade. >> For simple black-and-white figures, this will do the job: >> ? ? ? http://bourbon.usc.edu/tgif/ >> >> Yusuke > > That's exactly the kind of tool I'm looking to try, installing it from ports now, to line up next to Dia... > > Best, > .ike > +1 playing with it now, looks handy marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher From marco at metm.org Sun Sep 11 16:48:06 2011 From: marco at metm.org (Marco Scoffier) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:48:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109111633.p8BGX3On024399@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <4E6BDDCE.5090306@ceetonetechnology.com> <201109111633.p8BGX3On024399@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <4E6D1E86.3040104@metm.org> On 09/11/2011 12:32 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On Sep 10, 2011, at 5:59 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > >> I'll tinker with OOo/Libre on occasion. > A little late on this thread. I go through this discussion every 3-4 months... as at my work we are constantly writing tech proposals, papers and presentations and need input from various people (lots on Unix, OSX and some on windows). We always end up settling for OOLibre Draw. Then we can output to eps or pdf for papers, and insert into OOImpress or ppt (or other) for presentations. It mostly works though has some quirks in the GUI and it is near impossible to automate anything (like making all the connection lines thicker). But there are some niceities like being able to create groups (which you can enter to modify later) and getting little arrows to connect to particular spots on other objects. And all sorts of color gradients etc. We usually make a single .odg at a high enough resolution which we rescale for different formats, even upscale for some large posters we have made for conferences. Marco From nikolai at fetissov.org Sun Sep 11 21:40:02 2011 From: nikolai at fetissov.org (Nikolai Fetissov) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:40:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] September 2011 meeting audio Message-ID: <52399a1ac85c0588ec9beef3a4864abe.squirrel@geekisp.com> Folks, Audio of Boris's presentations are online (two files): http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbug/nycbug-09-07-11.1.mp3 http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbug/nycbug-09-07-11.2.mp3 Sorry for the delay. Cheers, -- Nikolai From akosela at andykosela.com Mon Sep 12 09:44:52 2011 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 15:44:52 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109111632.p8BGW3fq023540@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110910185936.GD14331@netmeister.org> <201109111632.p8BGW3fq023540@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On Sep 10, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > >> Isaac Levy wrote: >> >>> (I recall years ago when I asked this on list someone shouted 'ASCII >>> art', [a perfectly acceptable answer]). >> >> I'm gonna second that one. ?Actually "drawing" ascii can be a bit of a >> pain, but that makes you actually think about the relationships and >> visuals a bit more. ?And you can just check them in to your VCS and even >> plain diff them. > > Agreed, I do think ASCII art is a powerful way to embed well-defined concepts diagrams in text, yet it has limits, > > On Sep 10, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > >> George Rosamond wrote: >> >>> But ASCII art. . . LMAO. ?That's fine for decent techs collaborating, >>> but hardly presentable. ?Although diffs add to the utility. >> >> Hey, if it's good enough for RFCs... > > Excellent example on page 1: > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc768.txt > > Epic [page 22]: > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc793.txt Just found it on the web, looks cool http://www.asciipaint.com/ --Andy From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Sep 13 10:01:00 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:01:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] post-ALTQ land Message-ID: <4E6F621C.9090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Peter Hansteen blog. . . http://bsdly.blogspot.com/2011/07/anticipating-post-altq-world.html g From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Sep 13 19:07:24 2011 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:07:24 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <20110913230722.GA77970@arp.nomadlogic.org> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 12:20:30PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > > I know this has been a topic before, but: > > Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? > > kinda coming late into this discussion - but i ran into a similar problem a couple years ago and one of my co-workers found a web based visio clone that was actually pretty usable. maybe not as many features as visio where you can associate power budget per server/switch you put into a rack, but it was pretty good for doing high level work. i did a little searching and while i didn't find the app i was looking at i came across: http://www.gliffy.com/ if i find the name of the program i was using back in '08 i'll let ya all know. -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org From ike at blackskyresearch.net Tue Sep 13 13:16:33 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:16:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110913230722.GA77970@arp.nomadlogic.org> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110913230722.GA77970@arp.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <201109131717.p8DHH4Jm030824@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 13, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 12:20:30PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> >> I know this has been a topic before, but: >> >> Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? >> >> > kinda coming late into this discussion - but i ran into a similar > problem a couple years ago and one of my co-workers found a web based > visio clone that was actually pretty usable. maybe not as many features > as visio where you can associate power budget per server/switch you put > into a rack, but it was pretty good for doing high level work. i did a > little searching and while i didn't find the app i was looking at i came > across: > > http://www.gliffy.com/ > > if i find the name of the program i was using back in '08 i'll let ya > all know. > > > -pete Cool- I didn't know one could associate power budget to a given unit in Visio :) This online tool idea, I dunno... I started tooling around with tgif, so far it's extreme simplicity is totally appealing to me, as well as the cool output formats, I'm not going to muck with Dia any more. Will keep spending time with tgif and see how it goes... Rocket- .ike From jschauma at netmeister.org Tue Sep 13 14:01:42 2011 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:01:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? Here's another one: http://www.websequencediagrams.com/ -Jan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ike at blackskyresearch.net Tue Sep 13 16:37:52 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:37:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Soekris net6501-50's References: <4E6FBC2D.3010609@soekris.com> Message-ID: <201109132038.p8DKc3PO005698@rs134.luxsci.com> Sry to promote a vendor on-list, but so many of us use/abuse these boards: 120 of the new New Soekris Boards are being released, (notwithstanding some bleeding-edge bios fun, it seems :) Price is good IMHO for 4x GIGe NIC's, first model has a 1ghz Atom and 1g mem... Also of interest, the 2 Mini PCI Express slots accomodate tiny-weenie SSD drives. Rocket- .ike Begin forwarded message: > From: Jeff Forster > Date: September 13, 2011 4:25:17 PM EDT > To: ike at blackskyresearch.net > Subject: Soekris net6501-50's > > They are now available to be ordered off of our web site. > > > First, here is a link to an important technical note. (Please read prior to ordering): > > http://soekris.com/net6501_technical_note > > > > Second, the website allows ordering, but you will get this warning: > > * This product is not available in the requested quantity. 1 of the items will be backordered. > > Please ignore it. It is part of our inventory control for these first units. > > Thanks again for your support and patience, > > Jeff Forster > Soekris Engineering, Inc. > 831-464-5370 > From matt at tablethotels.com Wed Sep 14 15:53:58 2011 From: matt at tablethotels.com (Matthew Story) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:53:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <0F2AEEEC-0A72-4EB0-B6B1-6943EEBFD2CC@tablethotels.com> This thing is awesome ... here is my diagram of oauth ... on a napkin. http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw?lz=Q29uc3VtZXItPkNsaWVudDogSSB3YW50IHRvIHR3ZWV0IG15IGFuZ3J5IGJpcmRzIHNjb3JlcyEKACkGLT5TZXJ2aWNlOiBQcmV0dHkgUGxlYXNlIGNhbiBoZQA8B2hpcwAyEj8KADQHLT5NYWdpY2FsIEdub21lczogVG9rZW4_IE5vbmNlPwphY3RpdmF0ZSAAGQ4KACgOAIB_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_CQAIDACGVQ4AiGUJaQCIXAZheiBldmVyeXRoaW5nIQCFbBIAhxsQAIVzG25lZWQgYW5vdGhlcgA_FgCIWCgAgQYMAIhTKwCDAQV5b3UgZ28AhDIFcmVtZW1iZXIAhgYFcHJvbWlzZWQgbm8AixcFc3RvcmUAiR4FIHBlcm1hbmFudGx5AIIoEg&s=napkin On Sep 13, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Q: What X11 diagram tools, if any, do people use? > > Here's another one: > http://www.websequencediagrams.com/ > > -Jan > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From chsnyder at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 16:48:34 2011 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:48:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <0F2AEEEC-0A72-4EB0-B6B1-6943EEBFD2CC@tablethotels.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> <0F2AEEEC-0A72-4EB0-B6B1-6943EEBFD2CC@tablethotels.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Matthew Story wrote: > This thing is awesome ... here is my diagram of oauth ... on a napkin. > > http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw? > lz=Q29uc3VtZXItPkNsaWVudDogSSB3YW50IHRvIHR3ZWV0IG15IGFuZ3J5IG ... snip ... > R4FIHBlcm1hbmFudGx5AIIoEg&s=napkin Yeah, pretty awesome. Nice writeup. But I wonder if the developers of websequencediagrams.com have ever heard of URL shortening? From ike at blackskyresearch.net Thu Sep 15 08:26:08 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:26:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> <0F2AEEEC-0A72-4EB0-B6B1-6943EEBFD2CC@tablethotels.com> Message-ID: <201109151227.p8FCR3Nt005932@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 14, 2011, at 4:48 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Matthew Story wrote: >> This thing is awesome ... here is my diagram of oauth ... on a napkin. >> >> http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw? >> lz=Q29uc3VtZXItPkNsaWVudDogSSB3YW50IHRvIHR3ZWV0IG15IGFuZ3J5IG > ... snip ... >> R4FIHBlcm1hbmFudGx5AIIoEg&s=napkin > > Yeah, pretty awesome. Nice writeup. > > But I wonder if the developers of websequencediagrams.com have ever > heard of URL shortening? +1 for Oath. Your diagram has made me re-think everything, today at my office, I'm pitching replacing ssh public key use with Oath for all systems access, using your diagram. Rocket- .ike From matt at tablethotels.com Thu Sep 15 10:30:33 2011 From: matt at tablethotels.com (Matthew Story) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:30:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <201109151227.p8FCR3Nt005932@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> <0F2AEEEC-0A72-4EB0-B6B1-6943EEBFD2CC@tablethotels.com> <201109151227.p8FCR3Nt005932@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <4D422912-244C-493E-B2CF-03EB3DEDCA70@tablethotels.com> On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On Sep 14, 2011, at 4:48 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Matthew Story wrote: >>> This thing is awesome ... here is my diagram of oauth ... on a napkin. >>> >>> http://www.websequencediagrams.com/cgi-bin/cdraw? >>> lz=Q29uc3VtZXItPkNsaWVudDogSSB3YW50IHRvIHR3ZWV0IG15IGFuZ3J5IG >> ... snip ... >>> R4FIHBlcm1hbmFudGx5AIIoEg&s=napkin >> >> Yeah, pretty awesome. Nice writeup. >> >> But I wonder if the developers of websequencediagrams.com have ever >> heard of URL shortening? > Smart move. Oauth is PKI minus all the security bloat. Remember to change the default shells of your users to: http://antony.lesuisse.org/software/ajaxterm/ > +1 for Oath. Your diagram has made me re-think everything, today at my office, I'm pitching replacing ssh public key use with Oath for all systems access, using your diagram. > > Rocket- > .ike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Thu Sep 15 10:51:50 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:51:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Raspberry Pi alpha boards Message-ID: <4E721106.9010801@ceetonetechnology.com> More cool stuff: http://www.raspberrypi.org/2011/08/the-alpha-boards-are-here/ Amazing the variety of consumer-accessible embedded stuff coming out. What really noteworthy is that it's $25 for the 128 meg of RAM version. g From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 11:39:33 2011 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:39:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Raspberry Pi alpha boards In-Reply-To: <4E721106.9010801@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4E721106.9010801@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 10:51 AM, George Rosamond < george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > More cool stuff: > > http://www.raspberrypi.org/**2011/08/the-alpha-boards-are-**here/ > > Amazing the variety of consumer-accessible embedded stuff coming out. > > What really noteworthy is that it's $25 for the 128 meg of RAM version. > > g > ______________________________**_________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/**mailman/listinfo/talk > Raspberry Pi will have a exhibit at the NYC Maker Faire this weekend: http://makerfaire.com/pub/e/7148 *Eben Upton, the Raspberry guy himself will be there to chat about plans / directions for the project. * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ike at blackskyresearch.net Thu Sep 15 12:24:05 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:24:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Diagrams. In-Reply-To: <4D422912-244C-493E-B2CF-03EB3DEDCA70@tablethotels.com> References: <201109101621.p8AGL21f010980@rs134.luxsci.com> <20110913180142.GF19530@netmeister.org> <0F2AEEEC-0A72-4EB0-B6B1-6943EEBFD2CC@tablethotels.com> <201109151227.p8FCR3Nt005932@rs134.luxsci.com> <4D422912-244C-493E-B2CF-03EB3DEDCA70@tablethotels.com> Message-ID: <201109151625.p8FGP3O1015977@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 15, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > Smart move. Oauth is PKI minus all the security bloat. Remember to change the default shells of your users to: > > http://antony.lesuisse.org/software/ajaxterm/ That's the pickled onion I wanted on top of my fudge sundae sir. /usr/bin/laughtrack 60 >> /dev/null Best, .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Mon Sep 19 14:00:17 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 14:00:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] github down Message-ID: <201109191801.p8JI13at013530@rs134.luxsci.com> Hrm. Everyone remember when sf used to go down? http://status.github.com/ Best, .ike From lists at eitanadler.com Mon Sep 26 12:29:19 2011 From: lists at eitanadler.com (Eitan Adler) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:29:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] github down In-Reply-To: <201109191801.p8JI13at013530@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <201109191801.p8JI13at013530@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On 9/19/11, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hrm. > > Everyone remember when sf used to go down? Used to? Since when did it stop? > > http://status.github.com/ > > Best, > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Eitan Adler >From phone From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Sep 26 21:13:43 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 21:13:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question Message-ID: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: The box in question will have 8 SATA drives on it. The RAID card (which isn't going to be doing any RAID) has four SATA ports. There's four more SATA ports on the motherboard. Anything I should be concerned about here in terms of performance and data integrity? TIA George From bcully at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 21:49:30 2011 From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 21:49:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question In-Reply-To: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <304A8A73-02A7-480F-A43F-03F1672AA081@gmail.com> On Sep 26, 2011, at 21:13, George Rosamond wrote: > Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: > > The box in question will have 8 SATA drives on it. The RAID card (which isn't going to be doing any RAID) has four SATA ports. There's four more SATA ports on the motherboard. > > Anything I should be concerned about here in terms of performance and data integrity? There won't be any issues with data integrity no matter what you do, although you'll want some amount of redundancy with at least RAID-Z1 to allow ZFS to auto repair bad blocks. For performance the normal rules apply: split things across multiple controllers an so on. -bjc From ike at blackskyresearch.net Mon Sep 26 21:50:33 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 21:50:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question In-Reply-To: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <201109270151.p8R1p2at029444@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:13 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: > > The box in question will have 8 SATA drives on it. The RAID card (which isn't going to be doing any RAID) has four SATA ports. There's four more SATA ports on the motherboard. > > Anything I should be concerned about here in terms of performance and data integrity? > > TIA > > George Cool- I did this a while back when ZFS on FreeBSD was really green, I hacked hw together with as many sata cards as I could dig out- ZFS was itself rough-edged and new back then so my results were, um, a good learning experience :) The mixed SATA ports themselves didn't seem to cause any particular grief. If you're concerned about the performance/reliability mixing the ports, I suggest running some tests using good ol' bonnie++. It sounds tedious, but it's so fast to build/destroy zpools, it's really quite fun and quick. I would run a straight bonnie++ run on the box in the following configurations and see what suits you: - All 8 drives as one big zpool - split drives into 2 pools: 4 on the card, 4 on the motherboard - a single drive as a zpool Other fun tests, should you have time/interest: - raidz vs raidz2 - zfs block-level gzip compression - atime on, atime off Sounds like a tall order to test, but it's so easy- since there's no waiting around for newfs to complete... And if it bombs out, you'll have a chance to see why. -- The SATA ports should themselves operate normally, still the most important parts for running ZFS: 64 bit cpu, and as much memory as possible. Here's some more fun notes, lots of hardware/zfs intricacies discussed: http://www.solarisinternals.com/wiki/index.php/ZFS_Evil_Tuning_Guide And for the record, tons of working info on FreeBSD ZFS: http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFS Best, .ike From henry95 at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 21:52:04 2011 From: henry95 at gmail.com (Henry M) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 21:52:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question In-Reply-To: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: ZFS isn't that great for performance. For large data-stores, it's great. It has a lot of good features and adding new harddrives to a zpool is a snap. I always recommend to setup a hotspare (or 2) with any zpool. I've run into data errors in the past with zfs, but you can usually fix it with a zpool scrub if you setup a RAIDZ or mirror. (I recommend running a scrub occasionally to identify any integrity issues) Regards, Henry On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 9:13 PM, George Rosamond < george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: > > The box in question will have 8 SATA drives on it. The RAID card (which > isn't going to be doing any RAID) has four SATA ports. There's four more > SATA ports on the motherboard. > > Anything I should be concerned about here in terms of performance and data > integrity? > > TIA > > George > ______________________________**_________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/**mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ike at blackskyresearch.net Mon Sep 26 22:26:10 2011 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:26:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question In-Reply-To: References: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <201109270227.p8R2R2nK029865@rs134.luxsci.com> On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:52 PM, Henry M wrote: > On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 9:13 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: > > The box in question will have 8 SATA drives on it. The RAID card (which isn't going to be doing any RAID) has four SATA ports. There's four more SATA ports on the motherboard. > > Anything I should be concerned about here in terms of performance and data integrity? > > TIA > > George > ZFS isn't that great for performance. For large data-stores, it's great. It has a lot of good features and adding new harddrives to a zpool is a snap. > > I always recommend to setup a hotspare (or 2) with any zpool. I've run into data errors in the past with zfs, but you can usually fix it with a zpool scrub if you setup a RAIDZ or mirror. (I recommend running a scrub occasionally to identify any integrity issues) > > Regards, > Henry > IMHO ZFS vs. UFS is faster is speculation... It all depends severely on config, layout, and usage- either can be faster in different cases. I'd love to see some vendor donate a bunch of different disks, a few decent multi-disk chassis, and setup some real tests... but until there's some real benchmarks all I can back that up with is my .02? (Anyone know how we could pull off NYC*BUG collaboration with Tom's Hardware or something?) Rocket- .ike From spork at bway.net Mon Sep 26 22:36:48 2011 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:36:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question In-Reply-To: <201109270151.p8R1p2at029444@rs134.luxsci.com> References: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> <201109270151.p8R1p2at029444@rs134.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <86D7ADF4-CE4B-43C7-91AA-D989C3AD3596@bway.net> On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:13 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > >> Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: >> >> The box in question will have 8 SATA drives on it. The RAID card (which isn't going to be doing any RAID) has four SATA ports. There's four more SATA ports on the motherboard. >> >> Anything I should be concerned about here in terms of performance and data integrity? >> >> TIA >> >> George > > Cool- I did this a while back when ZFS on FreeBSD was really green, I hacked hw together with as many sata cards as I could dig out- ZFS was itself rough-edged and new back then so my results were, um, a good learning experience :) > The mixed SATA ports themselves didn't seem to cause any particular grief. > > If you're concerned about the performance/reliability mixing the ports, I suggest running some tests using good ol' bonnie++. It sounds tedious, but it's so fast to build/destroy zpools, it's really quite fun and quick. I would run a straight bonnie++ run on the box in the following configurations and see what suits you: > > - All 8 drives as one big zpool > - split drives into 2 pools: 4 on the card, 4 on the motherboard > - a single drive as a zpool > > Other fun tests, should you have time/interest: > - raidz vs raidz2 > - zfs block-level gzip compression This one sometimes gives interesting results depending on what type of data you're storing. Hint: Being able to read more than one block worth of data while reading just one block off the drive can speed some things up and the cpu hit is negligible. > - atime on, atime off > > Sounds like a tall order to test, but it's so easy- since there's no waiting around for newfs to complete... And if it bombs out, you'll have a chance to see why. > > -- > The SATA ports should themselves operate normally, still the most important parts for running ZFS: 64 bit cpu, and as much memory as possible. Here's a few additional tidbits: -If you end up with a bunch of mirrors and put those in a pool, it's probably wise to split your mirrors across the controllers. -Be aware of that nasty 4K sector issue on some of the new high capacity SATA units. -ZFS on root is not as scary as it sounds -Do not believe that if you run amd64 you don't have to still put black magic in loader.conf -Most FreeBSD-specific docs on zfs are outdated, rely on the mailing list archives -mfsbsd is your best "rescue disk" solution - http://mfsbsd.vx.sk/ - also some of Martin's backports of fixes/enhancements can be very worthwhile -Make sure you're using AHCI -Snapshots are awesome. Automated snapshots are awesome-er (http://people.freebsd.org/~rse/snapshot/ - I ditch the automounter stuff though). -Anecdotal, but I've been doing very, very bad things to both my home box and some older test boxes (intentional power loss, running panic-y kernels, yanking drives in improper ways, etc.) and zfs (w/root fs on zfs, btw) has proven to be totally robust in the face of this mistreatment - more than I can say for a few UFS2 boxes that have been. -MOAR RAM C > > Here's some more fun notes, lots of hardware/zfs intricacies discussed: > http://www.solarisinternals.com/wiki/index.php/ZFS_Evil_Tuning_Guide > > And for the record, tons of working info on FreeBSD ZFS: > http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFS > > Best, > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Sep 26 23:59:01 2011 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 23:59:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ZFS question In-Reply-To: <86D7ADF4-CE4B-43C7-91AA-D989C3AD3596@bway.net> References: <4E812347.1030303@ceetonetechnology.com> <201109270151.p8R1p2at029444@rs134.luxsci.com> <86D7ADF4-CE4B-43C7-91AA-D989C3AD3596@bway.net> Message-ID: <4E814A05.4090101@ceetonetechnology.com> On 09/26/11 22:36, Charles Sprickman wrote: > > On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> On Sep 26, 2011, at 9:13 PM, George Rosamond wrote: >> >>> Quick question for the ZFS users in the audience: Wow. Thanks. The box is an old 64-bit box and it has 8 x 750 gig. Probably going to runFreeNAS, and some data will be just writes (remote backups) and others will be more read-intensive (local network NFS). Probably around 6 gig of RAM for now. Let me snip and paste *some* of the relevant points. All contributions were appreciated. > Cool- I did this a while back when ZFS on FreeBSD was really green, > I hacked hw together with as many sata cards as I could dig out- ZFS > was itself rough-edged and new back then so my results were, um, a > good learning experience :) Was looking for my other controllers. .. that explains it! > Sounds like a tall order to test, but it's so easy- since there's no > waiting around for newfs to complete... And if it bombs out, you'll > have a chance to see why. Will probably do some of this for that and other reasons. > I'd love to see some vendor donate a bunch of different disks, a few > decent multi-disk chassis, and setup some real tests... but until > there's some real benchmarks all I can back that up with is my .02? > > (Anyone know how we could pull off NYC*BUG collaboration with Tom's > Hardware or something?) This could be interesting. On the pure advocacy level, benchmark testing (even showing updated ZFS versions on FBSD or NBSD) would be worthwhile. Anyone interested in doing this ping Ike offline :) Or certainly raise it at the next NYCBUG meeting or on a separate thread here. > I always recommend to setup a hotspare (or 2) with any zpool. I've run into > data errors in the past with zfs, but you can usually fix it with a zpool Very much. . . on the same page here. > This one sometimes gives interesting results depending on what type > of data you're storing. Hint: Being able to read more than one block > worth of data while reading just one block off the drive can speed > some things up and the cpu hit is negligible. > Understood. It's really quite a simple role. . . some will likely be www data, but while the served media files can be large, it shouldn't be an issue. It's not some psycho session or intensive db data. And yes, I have followed the FBSD wiki stuff for a long while, including the loader.conf stuff. Funny stuff Spork. This would be a fun in-meeting demonstration if planned well. But you have worked almost every first Wednesday since we started in 2004. . .what can we do? ;) Good stuff. g From mspitzer at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 22:03:33 2011 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:03:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] nice architecture talk, its 1 hr Message-ID: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Building-Scalable-Systems-Asynchronous-Approach -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher