From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 16:21:39 2012
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 16:21:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Paul Vixie - Silo Busting in Information
 Security: The ISC SIE Approach
In-Reply-To: <20121130131025.400100b6@ivory.wynn.com>
References: <20121130131025.400100b6@ivory.wynn.com>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBMck8NjTR0oZGz_YtF-W4t33yJqRcEbG2e9XCUSCkYb9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Brett Wynkoop <nycbug at wynn.com> wrote:

> Greeting-
>
> I am watching this talk on youtube right now.  You might find it useful
> and interesting.  The video is about an hour. I find it interesting, but
> then I love this type of thing.
>
> Paul Vixie - Silo Busting in Information Security: The ISC SIE Approach
>
> -Brett
>
> --
>
> wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
> 917-642-6924
> 718-717-5435
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

Had a minute to check it out this afternoon after watching "White Men Can't
Jump". Pretty sweet. Thanks! I had no idea of the complexity of what
actually makes up the ISC, so it was interesting to learn about that as
well as the main focus of the talk.

Really the concept was cooler to me than the actual implementation. I like
this idea of the "public" clearinghouse as well as this hybrid definition
of public access and how the profit/non-profit model fits in. I'm mean
that's what it's all about it isn't it? Definitely food for thought.


-- 
-jesse
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From nycbug at wynn.com  Wed Dec  5 18:02:08 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 18:02:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND 9 Security advisory
Message-ID: <20121205180208.4ee46079@ivory.wynn.com>

Greeting-

Just got this from some of my contacts at ISC:


--------------------cut here---------------------------------
The Security advisory for BIND 9 is now publicly available:

https://www.isc.org/software/bind/advisories/cve-2012-5688

Regards,

ISC Support

-------------------------cut here---------------------------

-Brett
-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From pete at nomadlogic.org  Wed Dec  5 18:12:05 2012
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:12:05 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BIND 9 Security advisory
In-Reply-To: <20121205180208.4ee46079@ivory.wynn.com>
References: <20121205180208.4ee46079@ivory.wynn.com>
Message-ID: <50BFD4C5.8090004@nomadlogic.org>

On 12/05/12 15:02, Brett Wynkoop wrote:
> Greeting-
>
> Just got this from some of my contacts at ISC:
>
>
> --------------------cut here---------------------------------
> The Security advisory for BIND 9 is now publicly available:
>
> https://www.isc.org/software/bind/advisories/cve-2012-5688
>
> Regards,
>
> ISC Support
>
> -------------------------cut here---------------------------
>
> -Brett

yikes - although today i get to learn about DNS64.

that's an interesting approach to ipv6->ipv4 bridging....sounds like you 
could do a lot of damage if you owned a box running dns64 if i 
understand things correctly.  it embeds an IPV4 address inside of a ipv6 
AAAA record (if no AAAA record exists for the host being queried).  fun.

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter =>  @nomadlogicLA




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Dec  9 18:44:08 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 18:44:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] talk@ vs announce@ lists
Message-ID: <50C52248.5090303@ceetonetechnology.com>

It's come to our attention (again) that many people who are on talk@ are 
not on announce at .

Announce@ posts are less frequent, but are not cross-posted to talk at . 
An announce list is for announcements, a talk list is for talking.  Some 
people dont want *both*.

So do yourself a favor and join announce@ if you want NYC*BUG announces. 
  They don't appear on talk@, as least not usually.

g


From spork at bway.net  Sun Dec  9 18:59:58 2012
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 18:59:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] talk@ vs announce@ lists
In-Reply-To: <50C52248.5090303@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <50C52248.5090303@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <41A267A5-1475-4FF9-A017-E1DCAF51BBA9@bway.net>

On Dec 9, 2012, at 6:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:

> It's come to our attention (again) that many people who are on talk@ are not on announce at .
> 
> Announce@ posts are less frequent, but are not cross-posted to talk at . An announce list is for announcements, a talk list is for talking.  Some people dont want *both*.

PSA:

If you don't subscribe to announce@, but do subscribe to talk@ you could very well end up hearing people talk about all the cool stuff that happened at an event that has already passed.  And you missed it because you didn't subscribe to announce at .  And then you're sad, and you're thinking "Why didn't I listen to George and subscribe to announce@?".  

> So do yourself a favor and join announce@ if you want NYC*BUG announces.  They don't appear on talk@, as least not usually.
> 
> g
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Dec  9 21:40:41 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 21:40:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
Message-ID: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>

The same day of my little rant at the last meeting, here's some very 
timely news:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2012-December/001441.html

Now certainly you can get a lot out of their analytics.  Information 
that can be useful in the interests of users, and spawn improvements in 
web sites, like FreeBSD.org.

But as I argued, nothing is free.  And when anyone claims anonymity by 
policy, you are trusting their word that it's true, trusting their 
lawyers that they can defend the data, etc.

While not as disturbing as the Amazon/Canonical/Ubuntu spyware, it is 
certainly an ugly turn, IMHO.

g


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Dec  9 21:44:14 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 21:44:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
Message-ID: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>

Some crazy stuff here:

http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/

Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, and 
it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact and 
who will fund its growth and usage.

Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)

g


From gjb at FreeBSD.org  Sun Dec  9 21:50:58 2012
From: gjb at FreeBSD.org (Glen Barber)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 21:50:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>

On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 09:40:41PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> The same day of my little rant at the last meeting, here's some very 
> timely news:
> 
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2012-December/001441.html
> 
> Now certainly you can get a lot out of their analytics.  Information 
> that can be useful in the interests of users, and spawn improvements in 
> web sites, like FreeBSD.org.
> 
> But as I argued, nothing is free.  And when anyone claims anonymity by 
> policy, you are trusting their word that it's true, trusting their 
> lawyers that they can defend the data, etc.
> 
> While not as disturbing as the Amazon/Canonical/Ubuntu spyware, it is 
> certainly an ugly turn, IMHO.
> 

Google Analytics was chosen for administrative reasons.

We are honoring the DNT header _before_ the Google Javascript is
fetched.  Additionally, we are anonymizing the accessing IPs.

Glen



From pete at nomadlogic.org  Sun Dec  9 22:54:13 2012
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 19:54:13 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
Message-ID: <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>

On 12/9/12 6:50 PM, Glen Barber wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 09:40:41PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>> The same day of my little rant at the last meeting, here's some very
>> timely news:
>>
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2012-December/001441.html
>>
>> Now certainly you can get a lot out of their analytics.  Information
>> that can be useful in the interests of users, and spawn improvements in
>> web sites, like FreeBSD.org.
>>
>> But as I argued, nothing is free.  And when anyone claims anonymity by
>> policy, you are trusting their word that it's true, trusting their
>> lawyers that they can defend the data, etc.
>>
>> While not as disturbing as the Amazon/Canonical/Ubuntu spyware, it is
>> certainly an ugly turn, IMHO.
>>
> Google Analytics was chosen for administrative reasons.
>
> We are honoring the DNT header _before_ the Google Javascript is
> fetched.  Additionally, we are anonymizing the accessing IPs.
feel free to ignore this rant...

<rant>
Glen - thank you for point that out!  I've been following the thread 
regarding this on chat@ and it's been driving me up the wall.  I feel 
like there has been a lot of FUD surrounding this announcement, along 
with a side order of "there are all these great open-source analytic 
engines they could use" w/o providing on concrete example of what they 
are, or how to implement them, or even an offer to provide such a 
platform to the freebsd project.

is google doing super sketchy things that is frankly taking the internet 
in a direction that a majority of technologists find apprehensible - 
yes!  and even worse i work in the same industry to feed my family!  the 
current state of using the WWW as a platform to monetize on personal 
browsing behaviour is certainly not what I wanted the web to turn into 
back in the early/mid '90's, and I certainly think we are all partly 
responsible for letting things get to this point.  it sucks, but we 
can't put Pandora back in her box at this point unfortunately.

but...having said that - I think we need to take a deep breath here.  i 
really don't think an .org like FreeBSD has the financial or human 
resources to implement an OSS version of GoogleAnalytics (which seems to 
be a frequent cry on chat@, i.e. "freebsd should do this themselves").  
I think the announcement is pretty clear on the benefits that GA has 
over a homegrown or home-managed implementations.  my reading of the 
announcement is that this is an effort to ensure that www.freebsd.org 
(and specifically its already excellent documentation) is relevant for 
end users.  by using a tool like GA, the volunteers are able to ensure 
their limited resources are spent in an intelligent manner improving 
documentation as well as the website with a relatively minor investment 
in gathering data on usage patterns.

i can't speak for the internals of GA personally, but the general 
proposition is that google has always leveraged the economy of scale to 
their advantage.  in the case of GA is it not only the crazy amount of 
computational power they own - but the amount of data that they are able 
to mine to generate interesting insights into browsing behavior.  it is 
not clear to me if people are either offended that:

a) google performs data-mining *really* well
or
b) the fruit of this mining will be used to improve the documentation 
that is produced by freebsd

The FUD surrounding the fact that freebsd.org is going to mine your 
personal data regardless of your personal preferences seems to be off 
base as per this snippet from post to a thread on chat@ that shows what 
the .js will look like that enables this functionality:

if (window.navigator.doNotTrack !== "yes") {
      ( function() {
          var ga = document.createElement('script');
          ga.type = 'text/javascript';
          ga.async = true;
          ga.src = 'https://ssl.google-analytics.com/ga.js';
          var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0];
          s.parentNode.insertBefore(ga, s);
      })();

}



so this looks pretty good - if you set your browser to announce you 
don't want to be tracked, then don't track me.  perhaps FreeBSD.org 
should post an announcement for first time users letting them know about 
the use of GA, and offer advice as to how to enable doNotTrack.

my argument can be boiled down to like so:
let's use this as an opportunity to educate users about behaviour 
tracking, and allow people to make decisions on their own as rational 
agents.  this shit ain't going away, so lets shine some light on it and 
expose both the positives and negatives, and hopefully we'll create some 
better educated users in the process.
</rant>

-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org

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From gjb at FreeBSD.org  Sun Dec  9 23:13:50 2012
From: gjb at FreeBSD.org (Glen Barber)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 23:13:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20121210041350.GI37809@glenbarber.us>

On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 07:54:13PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> Glen - thank you for point that out!  I've been following the thread 
> regarding this on chat@ and it's been driving me up the wall.  I feel 
> like there has been a lot of FUD surrounding this announcement, along 
> with a side order of "there are all these great open-source analytic 
> engines they could use" w/o providing on concrete example of what they 
> are, or how to implement them, or even an offer to provide such a 
> platform to the freebsd project.
> 

IMHO, it is not FUD, it is legitimate concern.  But, from what I see so
far, it is concern from those who are already security- and
privacy-aware.

We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.

Many alternative solutions were proposed, mostly to me in private as
response to the original announcement.  All of the proposed solutions
fail to provide the benefit we gain by using Google's system.  One key
gain is security of the Project's resources - we do not need to worry
about our cluster administrators wasting time (which they volunteer) to
ensure the latest version of Piwik is installed, for example.

Glen

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From nycbug at wynn.com  Sun Dec  9 23:22:41 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 23:22:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20121209232241.1204e413@ivory.wynn.com>

Greeting-

When a web search returns a pointer to the online version of the
handbook at freebsd.org I will be jumping on one of my own FreeBSD
boxen and looking at my own copy of the handbook.

While FreeBSD.org at this time has code to honor DNT as George said
that is the old "just trust me" and we all know that FreeBSD.org can
not defend your rights if the government comes around demanding
information.

I see it as a failing in society that people just accept things like
web tracking and horrid terms of service and EULAs.

I have a friend that has moved off grid to deep woods Alaska.  He gets
on line about once a month when he goes to town to answer email, but
does precious little of that.  I am starting to see why he changed his
lifestyle so much.

-Brett


-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From gjb at FreeBSD.org  Sun Dec  9 23:35:20 2012
From: gjb at FreeBSD.org (Glen Barber)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 23:35:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121209232241.1204e413@ivory.wynn.com>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
 <20121209232241.1204e413@ivory.wynn.com>
Message-ID: <20121210043520.GJ37809@glenbarber.us>

On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 11:22:41PM -0500, Brett Wynkoop wrote:
> Greeting-
> 
> When a web search returns a pointer to the online version of the
> handbook at freebsd.org I will be jumping on one of my own FreeBSD
> boxen and looking at my own copy of the handbook.
> 
> While FreeBSD.org at this time has code to honor DNT as George said
> that is the old "just trust me" and we all know that FreeBSD.org can
> not defend your rights if the government comes around demanding
> information.
> 

FUD at it's best.

What web search could you possibly perform that would return
a FreeBSD.org result _and_ be personally incriminating?

I have a suggestion:  Don't do stupid things on the internet.

Glen

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From nycbug at wynn.com  Mon Dec 10 00:06:29 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 00:06:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121210043520.GJ37809@glenbarber.us>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
 <20121209232241.1204e413@ivory.wynn.com>
 <20121210043520.GJ37809@glenbarber.us>
Message-ID: <20121210000629.036765a2@ivory.wynn.com>

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 23:35:20 -0500
Glen Barber <gjb at FreeBSD.org> wrote:

> FUD at it's best.
> 
> What web search could you possibly perform that would return
> a FreeBSD.org result _and_ be personally incriminating?
> 
> I have a suggestion:  Don't do stupid things on the internet.
> 
> Glen
> 

Greeting-

Indeed I agree with you that there is probably nothing I could search
for that would result in a pointer to freebsd.org and be personally
incriminating to me with the laws as they currently stand in the United
States of America, but we can not say that is the same for people in
other places.  I believe there are places in the world where
software freedom is frowned upon.

I also know from some of my own political activities in support of a
free internet and free software that the United States of America is
very close to outlawing Free Software in the name of the corporations
in who's pockets our government currently sits.

The current UEFI-Secure-Boot debacle is heading us down that path very
quickly.  It is no longer safe to believe "I am from the government and
I am here to help", nor is it safe to believe "Do no harm" from a
multinational corporation of immense size.

-Brett

-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From billtotman at billtotman.com  Mon Dec 10 09:40:04 2012
From: billtotman at billtotman.com (Bill Totman)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:40:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
In-Reply-To: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>

On 12/9/12 9:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
> Some crazy stuff here:
>
> http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/
>
> Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, 
> and it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact 
> and who will fund its growth and usage.
>
> Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)
>
> g
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
That's very interesting. Some of the 1st chat room sessions.

Thanks for sharing.

-bt


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Dec 10 11:47:42 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:47:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121210041350.GI37809@glenbarber.us>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us> <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
 <20121210041350.GI37809@glenbarber.us>
Message-ID: <50C6122E.1080906@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 12/09/12 23:13, Glen Barber wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 09, 2012 at 07:54:13PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>> Glen - thank you for point that out!  I've been following the thread
>> regarding this on chat@ and it's been driving me up the wall.  I feel
>> like there has been a lot of FUD surrounding this announcement, along
>> with a side order of "there are all these great open-source analytic
>> engines they could use" w/o providing on concrete example of what they
>> are, or how to implement them, or even an offer to provide such a
>> platform to the freebsd project.
>>
>
> IMHO, it is not FUD, it is legitimate concern.  But, from what I see so
> far, it is concern from those who are already security- and
> privacy-aware.
>
> We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
> disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.
>
> Many alternative solutions were proposed, mostly to me in private as
> response to the original announcement.  All of the proposed solutions
> fail to provide the benefit we gain by using Google's system.  One key
> gain is security of the Project's resources - we do not need to worry
> about our cluster administrators wasting time (which they volunteer) to
> ensure the latest version of Piwik is installed, for example.

Wow.  This conversation went in a direction I was not aiming for.  I 
will start jumping on email as soon as my talk@ posts are replied to. 
Maybe we should implement Disqus? ;)

There are several issues here:

1.  Administratively and for legitimate improvements of the FBSD.org 
www, yes, it makes sense.  I opened my email with that point.  I 
understand it, and many of us certainly entrust sites and projects such 
as FBSD to 'play nice'.  We certainly do it with the operating system 
code.  The argument of "let's just build our own" is weak to me, 
especially in the costs of time and responsibility.  I completely 
understand why the FBSD project would opt for it for legitimate purposes.

2.  I'm not concerned about 'black helicopters' or anything one might do 
that could be drawn from hitting FBSD documentation.  Of course, I do 
find it frustrating that forums.freebsd.org can't be accessed from Tor 
(black list of exit nodes?)

That said, it's the 3rd party we should have concern about.  It's their 
data collection that is the issue, and requiring a DNT bit set instead 
of having it off by default follows the logic of "you should request not 
to be tracked" and even worse "there's a sign on my door to not rob my 
house, so please don't".

There is a slippery slope for open source projects at work here:  a 
third party who profits from their 'free' services allows a path to 
broaden functionality.  But they aren't doing it for free.  They are 
benefiting in terms of data collection, and we merely become will parts 
of their game.

And of course, what happens if such a third party offers some generous 
funding or reward for expanding their data collection?

Transparency is not about opting out.  It is about not enabling by default.

g

(ps: this email lacks flow since I'm jumping between it and 12 other things)


From raulcuza at gmail.com  Mon Dec 10 12:50:53 2012
From: raulcuza at gmail.com (Raul Cuza)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:50:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
In-Reply-To: <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>
References: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>
Message-ID: <CAOnfn2y6KB4aAO-29v0-tLbduvxZELFYKWqidH_8ntDztJwKLQ@mail.gmail.com>

context: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/04/so-reagan-signs-into-this-chatroom.html

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Bill Totman <billtotman at billtotman.com> wrote:
> On 12/9/12 9:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
>>
>> Some crazy stuff here:
>>
>> http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/
>>
>> Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, and
>> it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact and who
>> will fund its growth and usage.
>>
>> Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)
>>
>> g
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> That's very interesting. Some of the 1st chat room sessions.
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
> -bt
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


From mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org  Mon Dec 10 14:25:48 2012
From: mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org (Michael W. Lucas)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:25:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C6122E.1080906@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
 <20121210041350.GI37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C6122E.1080906@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20121210192547.GA1342@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:47:42AM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:

> 2.  I'm not concerned about 'black helicopters' 

Excellent. We don't want you to be worried. But seriously...

> There is a slippery slope for open source projects at work here:  a 
> third party who profits from their 'free' services allows a path to 
> broaden functionality.  But they aren't doing it for free.  They are 
> benefiting in terms of data collection, and we merely become will parts 
> of their game.

This is a very valid concern.

Now that I'm a small business owner, as well as an engineer slaving
away in the trenches, I find myself making this same sort of
decision over and over again.

As an engineer, I find handing my data to a third party abhorrent. It
makes my bowels churn in a most unpleasant manner.

As a guy who is trying to get stuff done with the least amount of
effort, so I can get on to tasks that actually increase my
productivity... I find myself handing my data to third parties.

I grit my teeth every time. I look at my to-do list. I look at the
choice. And... now I'm sharing data with my contractors via Google
office, distributing my work via Amazon and B&N, and on, and on, and
on.

People have attempted to address GA's lack of real competition
before. The proposed alternatives are all partial solutions. And I
would argue that just as people who write web log analyzers make
mediocre operating system designers, operating system designers make
mediocre web active analyzers.[1]

I don't want the any BSD people spending their time writing a web log
analysis system. I want them writing more BSD.

What the broader open source community needs is a real alternative to
GA, written by people who understand the problem.

If you're looking for a space to contribute to the world, improving an
existing open-source analytics engine, or writing a new one, to take
on GA would be worthwhile. If it gets good enough, people will use it.

I'll also say that Google is much more open than either Amazon or
B&N. I desperately want data from Amazon, but I will never get it.

Me? I'm still back on awstats. When I bother. Most of my web logs are
exploit attempts.

==ml

[1] Yes, there are exceptions. PHK has been notably successful with
Varnish. But he spent a lot of time debugging Squid before taking on
that project, and he's smart enough to get the necessary education,
and he devoted his time and attention to it, to the detriment of his
BSD work. Having spent over a decade on FreeBSD, though, we can hardly
begrudge him a new hobby...

-- 
Michael W. Lucas 	
http://www.MichaelWLucas.com/, http://blather.MichaelWLucas.com/
Latest book: SSH Mastery http://www.michaelwlucas.com/nonfiction/ssh-mastery
mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com, Twitter @mwlauthor


From akosela at andykosela.com  Mon Dec 10 14:51:03 2012
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:51:03 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
In-Reply-To: <CAOnfn2y6KB4aAO-29v0-tLbduvxZELFYKWqidH_8ntDztJwKLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>
 <CAOnfn2y6KB4aAO-29v0-tLbduvxZELFYKWqidH_8ntDztJwKLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGhYem3dGNEdrqfsbSSsYw7tcC1yzCnDYUn40b8fi-1jEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Raul Cuza <raulcuza at gmail.com> wrote:
> context: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/04/so-reagan-signs-into-this-chatroom.html
>
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Bill Totman <billtotman at billtotman.com> wrote:
>> On 12/9/12 9:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>
>>> Some crazy stuff here:
>>>
>>> http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/
>>>
>>> Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, and
>>> it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact and who
>>> will fund its growth and usage.
>>>
>>> Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)

"Some people have assumed that the archive is real. Did this surprise
you? Have you had any negative reactions?
This reaction was completely unexpected, and it was not our intention
to fool people."

Well, I think many people indeed got fooled by this and it was part of
their original plan.  There is no statement on their website that all
of this is a work of fiction.

--Andy


From billtotman at billtotman.com  Mon Dec 10 14:57:26 2012
From: billtotman at billtotman.com (Bill Totman)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:57:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGhYem3dGNEdrqfsbSSsYw7tcC1yzCnDYUn40b8fi-1jEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>
 <CAOnfn2y6KB4aAO-29v0-tLbduvxZELFYKWqidH_8ntDztJwKLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGhYem3dGNEdrqfsbSSsYw7tcC1yzCnDYUn40b8fi-1jEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CFC8F67B-8B34-4DCE-A729-65B7DF635303@billtotman.com>


On Dec 10, 2012, at 2:51 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Raul Cuza <raulcuza at gmail.com> wrote:
>> context: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/04/so-reagan-signs-into-this-chatroom.html
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Bill Totman <billtotman at billtotman.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/9/12 9:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Some crazy stuff here:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/
>>>> 
>>>> Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, and
>>>> it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact and who
>>>> will fund its growth and usage.
>>>> 
>>>> Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)
> 
> "Some people have assumed that the archive is real. Did this surprise
> you? Have you had any negative reactions?
> This reaction was completely unexpected, and it was not our intention
> to fool people."
> 
> Well, I think many people indeed got fooled by this and it was part of
> their original plan.  There is no statement on their website that all
> of this is a work of fiction.
> 
> --Andy

Me: duped.

Note: each of the persons in the 1st 'dialog' 'excerpt' are deceased.


Thanks, Andy.




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Dec 10 17:13:32 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:13:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
In-Reply-To: <CFC8F67B-8B34-4DCE-A729-65B7DF635303@billtotman.com>
References: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>
 <CAOnfn2y6KB4aAO-29v0-tLbduvxZELFYKWqidH_8ntDztJwKLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGhYem3dGNEdrqfsbSSsYw7tcC1yzCnDYUn40b8fi-1jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CFC8F67B-8B34-4DCE-A729-65B7DF635303@billtotman.com>
Message-ID: <50C65E8C.5000806@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 12/10/12 14:57, Bill Totman wrote:
>
> On Dec 10, 2012, at 2:51 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Raul Cuza <raulcuza at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> context: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/04/so-reagan-signs-into-this-chatroom.html
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Bill Totman <billtotman at billtotman.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/9/12 9:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some crazy stuff here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/
>>>>>
>>>>> Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, and
>>>>> it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact and who
>>>>> will fund its growth and usage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)
>>
>> "Some people have assumed that the archive is real. Did this surprise
>> you? Have you had any negative reactions?
>> This reaction was completely unexpected, and it was not our intention
>> to fool people."
>>
>> Well, I think many people indeed got fooled by this and it was part of
>> their original plan.  There is no statement on their website that all
>> of this is a work of fiction.
>>
>> --Andy
>
> Me: duped.
>
> Note: each of the persons in the 1st 'dialog' 'excerpt' are deceased.
>
>
> Thanks, Andy.


not me.  It's April 1, that's why I posted.

$ cal

Okay... I'm lying.  Totally duped.

g



From brett.mahar at gmx.com  Mon Dec 10 17:38:11 2012
From: brett.mahar at gmx.com (Brett)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:38:11 +1100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
Message-ID: <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>

> >
> > IMHO, it is not FUD, it is legitimate concern.  But, from what I see so
> > far, it is concern from those who are already security- and
> > privacy-aware.
> >
> > We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
> > disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.
> >

A good reminder to disable javascript for daily internet use and only enable for sites that need it. Even though FreeBSD is respecting DNT, it doesn't take much of an imagination to see many other sites will not respect this flag.

Since there are probably many website administrators on this mailing list, my suggestion to any of them who want to improve privacy/security on the internet: build websites that are fully functional without javascript.



From bonsaime at gmail.com  Mon Dec 10 18:23:57 2012
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:23:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 10, 2012 6:07 PM, "Brett" <brett.mahar at gmx.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > IMHO, it is not FUD, it is legitimate concern.  But, from what I see
so
> > > far, it is concern from those who are already security- and
> > > privacy-aware.
> > >
> > > We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
> > > disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.
> > >
>
> A good reminder to disable javascript for daily internet use and only
enable for sites that need it. Even though FreeBSD is respecting DNT, it
doesn't take much of an imagination to see many other sites will not
respect this flag.
>
> Since there are probably many website administrators on this mailing
list, my suggestion to any of them who want to improve privacy/security on
the internet: build websites that are fully functional without javascript.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>

No, you as a browser of the web need to protect yourself.  The sites can
deliver content through whatever media they want. If we all feel strongly
about this it should be negotiated via headers to let the service know you
are a text only client.

Of course abuse of people's trust is not right and we need a little more
structure here from acceptable use policy. Whether this is an industry
agreement or law is up for debate between the left and right wingers.
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From bonsaime at gmail.com  Mon Dec 10 18:33:53 2012
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:33:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBNeLp0yjmgWLQh48uGyNK7kTUh+7+wjQjqwCEqu=KEF3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Dec 10, 2012 6:07 PM, "Brett" <brett.mahar at gmx.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, it is not FUD, it is legitimate concern.  But, from what I see
> so
> > > > far, it is concern from those who are already security- and
> > > > privacy-aware.
> > > >
> > > > We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.
>  Additionally,
> > > > disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.
> > > >
> >
> > A good reminder to disable javascript for daily internet use and only
> enable for sites that need it. Even though FreeBSD is respecting DNT, it
> doesn't take much of an imagination to see many other sites will not
> respect this flag.
> >
> > Since there are probably many website administrators on this mailing
> list, my suggestion to any of them who want to improve privacy/security on
> the internet: build websites that are fully functional without javascript.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> >
>
> No, you as a browser of the web need to protect yourself.  The sites can
> deliver content through whatever media they want. If we all feel strongly
> about this it should be negotiated via headers to let the service know you
> are a text only client.
>
> Of course abuse of people's trust is not right and we need a little more
> structure here from acceptable use policy. Whether this is an industry
> agreement or law is up for debate between the left and right wingers.
>

Hrm. You aren't suggesting what I'm countering : )

-- 
-jesse
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Mon Dec 10 18:42:32 2012
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:42:32 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <50C67368.20506@nomadlogic.org>

On 12/10/12 14:38, Brett wrote:
>>> IMHO, it is not FUD, it is legitimate concern.  But, from what I see so
>>> far, it is concern from those who are already security- and
>>> privacy-aware.
>>>
>>> We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
>>> disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.
>>>
> A good reminder to disable javascript for daily internet use and only enable for sites that need it. Even though FreeBSD is respecting DNT, it doesn't take much of an imagination to see many other sites will not respect this flag.
>
> Since there are probably many website administrators on this mailing list, my suggestion to any of them who want to improve privacy/security on the internet: build websites that are fully functional without javascript.

or, as a publisher, publicly support DNT and force adnetworks to respect 
DNT.  publishers are really the minor offenders in this arena - it's the 
adnetworks and 3rd party companies like blukai that have created an 
industry around using javascript for tracking.

security wise i'm going to drop some money to the FreeBSD foundation 
today and hopefully Pawel will be able to continue to work on Capsicum:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/capsicum/

see also this awesome interview with Robert Watson by GNN that touches 
on Capsicum among other really interesting things:

http://queue.acm.org/detail_video.cfm?id=2382552

-p

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter =>  @nomadlogicLA




From raulcuza at gmail.com  Mon Dec 10 19:41:57 2012
From: raulcuza at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Ra=C3=BAl_Cuza?=)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:41:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Arpanet dialogues
In-Reply-To: <50C65E8C.5000806@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <50C54C7E.7010508@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <50C5F444.8080200@billtotman.com>
 <CAOnfn2y6KB4aAO-29v0-tLbduvxZELFYKWqidH_8ntDztJwKLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMnNGhYem3dGNEdrqfsbSSsYw7tcC1yzCnDYUn40b8fi-1jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CFC8F67B-8B34-4DCE-A729-65B7DF635303@billtotman.com>
 <50C65E8C.5000806@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <77D9A344-C086-406D-9B4B-5804AAFA3219@gmail.com>

On Dec 10, 2012, at 17:13, George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:

> On 12/10/12 14:57, Bill Totman wrote:
>> 
>> On Dec 10, 2012, at 2:51 PM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Raul Cuza <raulcuza at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> context: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/04/so-reagan-signs-into-this-chatroom.html
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Bill Totman <billtotman at billtotman.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/9/12 9:44 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Some crazy stuff here:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.arpanetdialogues.net/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Online chats from 1976-1979.  The first one I'm reading through now, and
>>>>>> it's funny to hear discussions about the enormous potential impact and who
>>>>>> will fund its growth and usage.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Too bad nothing has been invented since ;)
>>> 
>>> "Some people have assumed that the archive is real. Did this surprise
>>> you? Have you had any negative reactions?
>>> This reaction was completely unexpected, and it was not our intention
>>> to fool people."
>>> 
>>> Well, I think many people indeed got fooled by this and it was part of
>>> their original plan.  There is no statement on their website that all
>>> of this is a work of fiction.
>>> 
>>> --Andy
>> 
>> Me: duped.
>> 
>> Note: each of the persons in the 1st 'dialog' 'excerpt' are deceased.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks, Andy.
> 
> 
> not me.  It's April 1, that's why I posted.
> 
> $ cal
> 
> Okay... I'm lying.  Totally duped.
> 
> g
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Me: can't figure out how to make my mobile bottom post. :-/

It felt too much like something I would love to read. The fist arpanet dialog probably was along the lines of "Scotty, beam me up."

Ra?l

Sent from a mobile eMate 300




From brett.mahar at gmx.com  Mon Dec 10 19:42:30 2012
From: brett.mahar at gmx.com (Brett)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:42:30 +1100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>

> > > >
> > > > We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
> > > > disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.
> > > >
> >
> > A good reminder to disable javascript for daily internet use and only
> enable for sites that need it. Even though FreeBSD is respecting DNT, it
> doesn't take much of an imagination to see many other sites will not
> respect this flag.
> >
> > Since there are probably many website administrators on this mailing
> list, my suggestion to any of them who want to improve privacy/security on
> the internet: build websites that are fully functional without javascript.
> >

> 
> No, you as a browser of the web need to protect yourself.  The sites can
> deliver content through whatever media they want. If we all feel strongly
> about this it should be negotiated via headers to let the service know you
> are a text only client.
> 

That is practical for computer-literate people, but completely impractical for the average person. 

e.g.: Imagine installing noscript or disabling javascript by browser settings on the average person's computer. It would take them about 5 minutes of browsing to hit a site that will not function correctly without javascript, or tells them to "please enable javascript" so the site will work correctly. 

Computer literate people, or people who don't mind some minor hacking, can then re-enable javascript or click the noscript "allow" button. If you know a bit about computers then you can usually guess when a site is not working propoerly what the reason is, and re-enable. But, for example, my mum and flatmates and 95% of the people who own iPads won't know or do this. 

"No, you as a browser of the web need to protect yourself." Is a fine-sounding pronouncement, but completely impractical (and therefore a useless suggestion) for the vast majority of the human population, unless webmasters stop having such a completely unrealistic viewpoint of what end users should do :-)

"The sites can deliver content through whatever media they want." But I was not talking about "the sites." I was talking about the website administrators who choose what media to use, and choose not to provide fallbacks for people who disagree. 

Brett.




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Dec 10 21:20:28 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:20:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 12/10/12 19:42, Brett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.
>>>>> Additionally, disabling Javascript will also disallow
>>>>> tracking.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> A good reminder to disable javascript for daily internet use and
>>> only
>> enable for sites that need it. Even though FreeBSD is respecting
>> DNT, it doesn't take much of an imagination to see many other sites
>> will not respect this flag.
>>>
>>> Since there are probably many website administrators on this
>>> mailing
>> list, my suggestion to any of them who want to improve
>> privacy/security on the internet: build websites that are fully
>> functional without javascript.
>>>
>
>>
>> No, you as a browser of the web need to protect yourself.  The
>> sites can deliver content through whatever media they want. If we
>> all feel strongly about this it should be negotiated via headers to
>> let the service know you are a text only client.
>>
>
> That is practical for computer-literate people, but completely
> impractical for the average person.

Yeah, and this notion that "the sites can deliver content through 
whatever media they want" is such a crazy illustration of how low the 
internet has gone.  It flouts standards and that ancient client-server 
model that once thrived.

And unfortunately it is incumbent upon users, since policies, standards, 
etc., are all irrelevant or horribly distorted in reality.

>
> e.g.: Imagine installing noscript or disabling javascript by browser
> settings on the average person's computer. It would take them about 5
> minutes of browsing to hit a site that will not function correctly
> without javascript, or tells them to "please enable javascript" so
> the site will work correctly.
>
> Computer literate people, or people who don't mind some minor
> hacking, can then re-enable javascript or click the noscript "allow"
> button. If you know a bit about computers then you can usually guess
> when a site is not working propoerly what the reason is, and
> re-enable. But, for example, my mum and flatmates and 95% of the
> people who own iPads won't know or do this.

Yup.  Very true.  But that doesn't mean people on this list should just 
keep their mouths shut, IMO.

When you matter, and plenty of people on this list do, none javascript, 
etc., sites should be offered as an alternative, at least.  I mean, on 
another angle, think of mobile users with limited bandwidth.  Or what it 
was like being online during Sandy.

>
> "No, you as a browser of the web need to protect yourself." Is a
> fine-sounding pronouncement, but completely impractical (and
> therefore a useless suggestion) for the vast majority of the human
> population, unless webmasters stop having such a completely
> unrealistic viewpoint of what end users should do :-)
>
> "The sites can deliver content through whatever media they want." But
> I was not talking about "the sites." I was talking about the website
> administrators who choose what media to use, and choose not to
> provide fallbacks for people who disagree.

As Bruce Schneier once said in one form or another, security is a 'war' 
in which the civilians are in the trenches.

All the more reason to not require javascript, flash, etc.  I mean, 
flash-only homepages?   Why do people (esp light-weight design firms) 
still insist on that crap?  Maybe they haven't heard of the lack of 
backward compatibility issues, etc.

I wonder what the extra costs in power and cpu cycles is with people 
insisting on such heavy crap to find contact information or something 
stupid like that.

When .com's overtook .org's and .edu's for the most domains in ~1995, 
web sites were then slowly handed over to people more concerned about 
eye candy than about interoperability.  But the internet never would 
have happened without interoperability, and Edward Said would never have 
chatted with Ronald Reagan ;) </dumb joke>

BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care 
about the original thread.

g


From gjb at FreeBSD.org  Mon Dec 10 21:26:25 2012
From: gjb at FreeBSD.org (Glen Barber)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:26:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:20:28PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care 
> about the original thread.
> 

As does Postgresql.org.

Glen

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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Dec 10 21:37:05 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:37:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
Message-ID: <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 12/10/12 21:26, Glen Barber wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:20:28PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>> BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care
>> about the original thread.
>>
>
> As does Postgresql.org.

And Ubuntu puts spyware in their OS.

Let's all rush off the cliff!

I think many of us are in BSD land since we don't follow supposed 
"common wisdom."

g


From nycbug at wynn.com  Mon Dec 10 21:47:09 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:47:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
 <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20121210214709.1cdffed5@ivory.wynn.com>

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:37:05 -0500
George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:

> I think many of us are in BSD land since we don't follow supposed 
> "common wisdom."
> 
> g

In our industry these days "common wisdom" is indeed an oxymoron.
Wisdom is not so common and what passes for wisdom is is usually
not.

-Brett

-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From gjb at FreeBSD.org  Mon Dec 10 21:59:05 2012
From: gjb at FreeBSD.org (Glen Barber)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:59:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
 <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20121211025905.GH1332@glenbarber.us>

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:37:05PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> On 12/10/12 21:26, Glen Barber wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:20:28PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> >> BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care
> >> about the original thread.
> >>
> >
> > As does Postgresql.org.
> 
> And Ubuntu puts spyware in their OS.
> 
> Let's all rush off the cliff!
> 
> I think many of us are in BSD land since we don't follow supposed 
> "common wisdom."
> 

My point is, how many postgresql.org users or netbsd.org users are
complaining?

If anyone bothers to look....  I wish I had their free time.

IMHO, the response to the enabling of Google Analytics on FreeBSD.org is
equivalent to saying "I don't have a credit card, because my credit card
company may know what I'm purchasing."

Glen

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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Dec 10 22:53:14 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:53:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121211025905.GH1332@glenbarber.us>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
 <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211025905.GH1332@glenbarber.us>
Message-ID: <50C6AE2A.4050007@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 12/10/12 21:59, Glen Barber wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:37:05PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>> On 12/10/12 21:26, Glen Barber wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:20:28PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>> BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care
>>>> about the original thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As does Postgresql.org.
>>
>> And Ubuntu puts spyware in their OS.
>>
>> Let's all rush off the cliff!
>>
>> I think many of us are in BSD land since we don't follow supposed
>> "common wisdom."
>>
>
> My point is, how many postgresql.org users or netbsd.org users are
> complaining?

Don't know, but not sure it should be judged by who else cares.

>
> If anyone bothers to look....  I wish I had their free time.
>
> IMHO, the response to the enabling of Google Analytics on FreeBSD.org is
> equivalent to saying "I don't have a credit card, because my credit card
> company may know what I'm purchasing."

But you wouldn't necessarily volunteer that information if you had a 
choice, would you?

Especially when it's on behalf of your web site users.

Or should we just play join the "chocolate for your passwd" game?

And if you're going to be transparent about it, why not put up a splash 
page warning those who hit freebsd.org that they *should* disable 
javascript if they don't want to be tracked by a third party?  How about 
opt-in?

Maybe I'm misreading it, but I wonder if the EU decisions related to GA 
are going to set other precedents.

g


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Dec 11 14:57:17 2012
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:57:17 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
 <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <50C7901D.5060507@nomadlogic.org>

On 12/10/12 18:37, George Rosamond wrote:
> On 12/10/12 21:26, Glen Barber wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:20:28PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>>> BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care
>>> about the original thread.
>>>
>>
>> As does Postgresql.org.
>
> And Ubuntu puts spyware in their OS.
>
> Let's all rush off the cliff!

I know this was intended as a tongue-and-cheek reference..but i think 
there is a pretty big distinction b/w integrating 3rd party advertising 
into your OS to make money off your end users versus leveraging 3rd 
party tools as part of a feed-back loop to improve documentation and 
site usability.

anywho...didn't realize netbsd and postgresql were both using 
GA...interesting.

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter =>  @nomadlogicLA




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Tue Dec 11 15:42:30 2012
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:42:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C7901D.5060507@nomadlogic.org>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
 <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com> <50C7901D.5060507@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <50C79AB6.2010700@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 12/11/12 14:57, Pete Wright wrote:
> On 12/10/12 18:37, George Rosamond wrote:
>> On 12/10/12 21:26, Glen Barber wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 09:20:28PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>> BTW, NetBSD.org also uses Google Analytics, for those who still care
>>>> about the original thread.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As does Postgresql.org.
>>
>> And Ubuntu puts spyware in their OS.
>>
>> Let's all rush off the cliff!
> 
> I know this was intended as a tongue-and-cheek reference..but i think
> there is a pretty big distinction b/w integrating 3rd party advertising
> into your OS to make money off your end users versus leveraging 3rd
> party tools as part of a feed-back loop to improve documentation and
> site usability.

I have no cheeks!

(yes, tongue-and-cheek, but...) The reality is that what was
unacceptable before has become the norm, specifically with privacy
related issues.

So what an Ubuntu could dare to do today was unheard of ten years ago.

The parameters of what's acceptable have shifted for the worse.

> 
> anywho...didn't realize netbsd and postgresql were both using
> GA...interesting.

I noticed NetBSD was doing this a while back.  I'll ping some NBSD
people and see what they say, but bad stuff, IMHO.

g


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Dec 11 16:38:38 2012
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:38:38 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C79AB6.2010700@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <mailman.1.1355158803.18498.talk@lists.nycbug.org>
 <20121211093811.0c8fcca6f08daa76f364597b@gmx.com>
 <CAJU5ZBPJgj7kgDFO0Hq8ozopeQuyn-2vy-eVdj1V1BXNHFbRtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121211114230.bc793f56423581359e3611f4@gmx.com>
 <50C6986C.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121211022625.GG1332@glenbarber.us>
 <50C69C51.6010706@ceetonetechnology.com> <50C7901D.5060507@nomadlogic.org>
 <50C79AB6.2010700@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <50C7A7DE.30107@nomadlogic.org>

On 12/11/12 12:42, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>
>>> And Ubuntu puts spyware in their OS.
>>>
>>> Let's all rush off the cliff!
>> I know this was intended as a tongue-and-cheek reference..but i think
>> there is a pretty big distinction b/w integrating 3rd party advertising
>> into your OS to make money off your end users versus leveraging 3rd
>> party tools as part of a feed-back loop to improve documentation and
>> site usability.
> I have no cheeks!
>
> (yes, tongue-and-cheek, but...) The reality is that what was
> unacceptable before has become the norm, specifically with privacy
> related issues.
>
> So what an Ubuntu could dare to do today was unheard of ten years ago.

i think it may be closer to what was not possible ten years ago is now 
technologically possible and available and some people are taking a stab 
at using this tech to improve the projects they are working on.  we 
obviously don't see eye to eye on this issue, but the good thing is we 
are discussing it in an open manner because it is still a community :)

as far as ubuntu...seems to me to just be a shitty business decision cut 
and dry.  i haven't seen any good engineering explanations as to how 
users would benefit from targeted advertising being coupled with an OS 
targeted mostly to a developer centric audience.

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter =>  @nomadlogicLA




From ericshane at eradman.com  Wed Dec 12 13:46:02 2012
From: ericshane at eradman.com (Eric Radman)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 13:46:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <50C6122E.1080906@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C55CE5.4070205@nomadlogic.org>
 <20121210041350.GI37809@glenbarber.us>
 <50C6122E.1080906@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20121212184602.GA23154@SDF.ORG>

On 12/09/12 23:13, Glen Barber wrote:
>
>We (FreeBSD) are respecting DNT, not relying on Google.  Additionally,
>disabling Javascript will also disallow tracking.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but aren't we really redefining
a freebsd user as someone who runs javascript?

> - We will be able to identify the most actively visited pages within
>   the site as a whole.  This information, especially in documenting an
>   Operating System, is essential in identifying "priority" pages, and
>   can help the Documentation Project prepare such pages before
>   releases.

This is a judgement about who the important users are since GA was
created to characterize mass-consumer behavior. I would venture to guess
that the users who don't allow GA tend to be a relevant part of the
community.

Eric



From mark.saad at ymail.com  Thu Dec 13 12:33:16 2012
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 12:33:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] In other news
Message-ID: <CAMXt9NYGsic+uBHdzhcYyVAxvv2KYGxY6VgG4WHVj-zG66iGcA@mail.gmail.com>

Today i learned the nycbug mirror is more popular then microsoft.pl

http://toolbar.netcraft.com/stats/topsites?s=3F2991D0823DC8B2961D154CAE75#1777982

-- 

Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com
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From akosela at andykosela.com  Thu Dec 13 12:47:12 2012
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:47:12 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] In other news
In-Reply-To: <CAMXt9NYGsic+uBHdzhcYyVAxvv2KYGxY6VgG4WHVj-zG66iGcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMXt9NYGsic+uBHdzhcYyVAxvv2KYGxY6VgG4WHVj-zG66iGcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGiyGLDXxiZmJkJP2Ae8upO519TQ70LXBYkDTEtMhkopzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> Today i learned the nycbug mirror is more popular then microsoft.pl
>
> http://toolbar.netcraft.com/stats/topsites?s=3F2991D0823DC8B2961D154CAE75#1777982

Interesting... by the way the first 20 entries are basically owned
either by Facebook or Google.  I am glad to see Wikipedia on #38
though.

--Andy


From sjt.kar at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 03:54:47 2012
From: sjt.kar at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:24:47 +0530
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
Message-ID: <CAOPOgtBVSSqepL-7n=8zoPR+58xrxrL4CTGX3UvQnZnDVQ0sQw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Google Analytics was chosen for administrative reasons.

How about omniture?

http://www.downloadplex.com/Scripts/PHP/Modules/omniture-integration-scripts_247021.html

>
> We are honoring the DNT header _before_ the Google Javascript is
> fetched.  Additionally, we are anonymizing the accessing IPs.
>
> Glen
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



-- 
-- Sujit K M

blog(http://kmsujit.blogspot.com/)


From sjt.kar at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 06:52:55 2012
From: sjt.kar at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 17:22:55 +0530
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD & Google Analytics
In-Reply-To: <CAOPOgtBVSSqepL-7n=8zoPR+58xrxrL4CTGX3UvQnZnDVQ0sQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50C54BA9.1060800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20121210025058.GG37809@glenbarber.us>
 <CAOPOgtBVSSqepL-7n=8zoPR+58xrxrL4CTGX3UvQnZnDVQ0sQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOPOgtD=cfXcOry=EbNWd=jjVtTyiQXD+hPTLGJN_O0mwSueyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Sujit K M <sjt.kar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Google Analytics was chosen for administrative reasons.
>
> How about omniture?
>
> http://www.downloadplex.com/Scripts/PHP/Modules/omniture-integration-scripts_247021.html

https://github.com/jbueza/jquery-omniture


From nycbug at wynn.com  Wed Dec 19 02:14:51 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 02:14:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beaglebone up after trials and tribulation
Message-ID: <20121219021451.3b451328@ivory.wynn.com>

Greeting-

Well I finally got my arm world built.  It took replacing the x86 box I
was trying to build on with one that did not have hardware issues and
could stay up through the build process.

wynkoop at beaglebone:~ % uname -a
FreeBSD beaglebone 10.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Dec 17
05:50:03 EST 2012
root at prd6.wynn.com:/usr/obj/arm.armv6/export/home/wynkoop/freebsd-beaglebone-master/freebsd-src/sys/BEAGLEBONE
arm wynkoop at beaglebone:~ % 

There seem to be some small glitches, like the network does not like to
work at 10baseT and it hiccups at 100baseTX, but I am running so now it
is time to really start playing with it!  Tomorrow will see me putting
some USB storage on the device and building some ports.

I should have retired that old crashing 450 Mhz P2 much sooner and
gotten the arm cross build finished weeks ago!

-Brett

-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From ericshane at eradman.com  Wed Dec 19 07:31:09 2012
From: ericshane at eradman.com (Eric Radman)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:31:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Secure your own content
Message-ID: <20121219123109.GA21314@SDF.ORG>

Most of this article is not worth reading, but the conclusion intrigued
me

  http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/11/ff-mat-honan-password-hacker/all/

  "We need to make that trade-off, and eventually we will. The only way
  forward is real identity verification: to allow our movements and
  metrics to be tracked in all sorts of ways and to have those movements
  and metrics tied to our actual identity. We are not going to retreat
  from the cloud--to bring our photos and email back onto our hard
  drives."

Why not?

Honan is a very foolish technologist, but he's identified an important
cultural shift, namely you are not responsible for keeping your own
data (and by implication you do not determine the terms of use for
content you create).

-- 
Eric Radman  |  http://eradman.com


From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 19 11:48:47 2012
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:48:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical copies
 of dead tree unix manuals?
Message-ID: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

Today I realized there are no pictures of unix manuals on the wikipedia man
entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page). Google images doesn't have
much either.

Twice in my life have I seen real unix manuals. One was for some AT&T
flavor and one was for AUX. In both cases they were in binders that were of
executive paper size or smaller. I believe the AT&T ones were grey with
blue writing and the A/UX ones were red with black or gold.

If anyone has actual dead tree copies can they take pictues and uplaod them
to wikimedia, or flickr-CC before these peices of history all get thrown
away?

Thanks,

Justin
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From gnn at neville-neil.com  Wed Dec 19 12:18:47 2012
From: gnn at neville-neil.com (George Neville-Neil)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:18:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beaglebone up after trials and tribulation
In-Reply-To: <20121219021451.3b451328@ivory.wynn.com>
References: <20121219021451.3b451328@ivory.wynn.com>
Message-ID: <54AC623B-C84E-46A7-97A0-2B79DA8BF056@neville-neil.com>


On Dec 19, 2012, at 02:14 , Brett Wynkoop <nycbug at wynn.com> wrote:

> Greeting-
> 
> Well I finally got my arm world built.  It took replacing the x86 box I
> was trying to build on with one that did not have hardware issues and
> could stay up through the build process.
> 
> wynkoop at beaglebone:~ % uname -a
> FreeBSD beaglebone 10.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Dec 17
> 05:50:03 EST 2012
> root at prd6.wynn.com:/usr/obj/arm.armv6/export/home/wynkoop/freebsd-beaglebone-master/freebsd-src/sys/BEAGLEBONE
> arm wynkoop at beaglebone:~ % 
> 
> There seem to be some small glitches, like the network does not like to
> work at 10baseT and it hiccups at 100baseTX, but I am running so now it
> is time to really start playing with it!  Tomorrow will see me putting
> some USB storage on the device and building some ports.
> 

BTW There are some  known issues with BeagleBone and ethernet, so look here first
and see if your BB is one that needs you to cut a trace.

http://circuitco.com/support/index.php?title=BeagleBone

Search for "R219" and make absolutely sure that you have the board
with the issue.

That being said there are definitely issues that a bunch of us are trying
to address in the cpsw driver, so, bug reports etc. are most welcome.

Best,
George




From kula at tproa.net  Wed Dec 19 12:10:15 2012
From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:10:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical
	copies of dead tree unix manuals?
In-Reply-To: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121219171015.GE6818@keymaster.tproa.net>

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:48:47AM -0500, Justin Dearing wrote:
> 
>    Hey all,
> 
>    Today  I  realized  there  are  no  pictures  of  unix  manuals on the
>    wikipedia man entry ([1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page). Google
>    images doesn't have much either.
> 
>    Twice  in my life have I seen real unix manuals. One was for some AT&T
>    flavor  and  one  was for AUX. In both cases they were in binders that
>    were  of executive paper size or smaller. I believe the AT&T ones were
>    grey with blue writing and the A/UX ones were red with black or gold.
> 
>    If anyone has actual dead tree copies can they take pictues and uplaod
>    them to wikimedia, or flickr-CC before these peices of history all get
>    thrown away?

I just looked in our catalog, and I think we've got some in
the Columbia libraries. I'll wander over to the Engineering
Library this afternoon and snap some pictures.


-- 
Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Wed Dec 19 13:30:39 2012
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:30:39 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical
 copies of dead tree unix manuals?
In-Reply-To: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50D207CF.40603@nomadlogic.org>

On 12/19/12 08:48, Justin Dearing wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Today I realized there are no pictures of unix manuals on the 
> wikipedia man entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page). Google 
> images doesn't have much either.
>
> Twice in my life have I seen real unix manuals. One was for some AT&T 
> flavor and one was for AUX. In both cases they were in binders that 
> were of executive paper size or smaller. I believe the AT&T ones were 
> grey with blue writing and the A/UX ones were red with black or gold.
>
> If anyone has actual dead tree copies can they take pictues and uplaod 
> them to wikimedia, or flickr-CC before these peices of history all get 
> thrown away?
>

This guy holds a special place in my heart - hopefully someone has a 
copy laying around:
http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdcomp

sucks I just purged my old IRIX 6.5.x and SGI hardware documentation 
from my library about a year ago :/


-p

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter =>  @nomadlogicLA




From nycbug at wynn.com  Wed Dec 19 13:57:11 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:57:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beaglebone up after trials and tribulation
In-Reply-To: <54AC623B-C84E-46A7-97A0-2B79DA8BF056@neville-neil.com>
References: <20121219021451.3b451328@ivory.wynn.com>
 <54AC623B-C84E-46A7-97A0-2B79DA8BF056@neville-neil.com>
Message-ID: <20121219135711.7d6c6773@ivory.wynn.com>

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:18:47 -0500
George Neville-Neil <gnn at neville-neil.com> wrote:
> 
> BTW There are some  known issues with BeagleBone and ethernet, so
> look here first and see if your BB is one that needs you to cut a
> trace.
> 
> http://circuitco.com/support/index.php?title=BeagleBone
> 
> Search for "R219" and make absolutely sure that you have the board
> with the issue.
> 
> That being said there are definitely issues that a bunch of us are
> trying to address in the cpsw driver, so, bug reports etc. are most
> welcome.
> 
> Best,
> George
> 

Greeting-

I have the A6A rev of the board.  I found no reference to needing to
cut the trace to R219 for that board, The only reference I found to
cutting R219 seems to be for the A4 board.  Am I missing something?  I
think the problems are probably driver related as it ran fine under
GNU/Linux for several weeks.

-Brett
-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From gnn at neville-neil.com  Wed Dec 19 14:00:11 2012
From: gnn at neville-neil.com (George Neville-Neil)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:00:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beaglebone up after trials and tribulation
In-Reply-To: <20121219135711.7d6c6773@ivory.wynn.com>
References: <20121219021451.3b451328@ivory.wynn.com>
 <54AC623B-C84E-46A7-97A0-2B79DA8BF056@neville-neil.com>
 <20121219135711.7d6c6773@ivory.wynn.com>
Message-ID: <2F9D1FE5-79D7-4EDC-80A2-13319A649A0A@neville-neil.com>


On Dec 19, 2012, at 13:57 , Brett Wynkoop <nycbug at wynn.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:18:47 -0500
> George Neville-Neil <gnn at neville-neil.com> wrote:
>> 
>> BTW There are some  known issues with BeagleBone and ethernet, so
>> look here first and see if your BB is one that needs you to cut a
>> trace.
>> 
>> http://circuitco.com/support/index.php?title=BeagleBone
>> 
>> Search for "R219" and make absolutely sure that you have the board
>> with the issue.
>> 
>> That being said there are definitely issues that a bunch of us are
>> trying to address in the cpsw driver, so, bug reports etc. are most
>> welcome.
>> 
>> Best,
>> George
>> 
> 
> Greeting-
> 
> I have the A6A rev of the board.  I found no reference to needing to
> cut the trace to R219 for that board, The only reference I found to
> cutting R219 seems to be for the A4 board.  Am I missing something?  I
> think the problems are probably driver related as it ran fine under
> GNU/Linux for several weeks.
> 

The A6 is fine, it was the A4, which I have, that had the problem.

If you're following Tim Kneitzle's work on this then you'll get the
latest updates for the driver.

Join the arm@ mailing list to send along bugs etc.

Best,
George




From nikolai at fetissov.org  Sun Dec 23 13:01:31 2012
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (Nikolai Fetissov)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 13:01:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical
	copies of dead tree unix manuals?
In-Reply-To: <50D207CF.40603@nomadlogic.org>
References: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50D207CF.40603@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <C864D517-7E7D-4AA2-8971-982C6AD3609A@fetissov.org>

On Dec 19, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

> On 12/19/12 08:48, Justin Dearing wrote:
>> Hey all,
>> 
>> Today I realized there are no pictures of unix manuals on the wikipedia man entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page). Google images doesn't have much either.
>> 
>> Twice in my life have I seen real unix manuals. One was for some AT&T flavor and one was for AUX. In both cases they were in binders that were of executive paper size or smaller. I believe the AT&T ones were grey with blue writing and the A/UX ones were red with black or gold.
>> 
>> If anyone has actual dead tree copies can they take pictues and uplaod them to wikimedia, or flickr-CC before these peices of history all get thrown away?
> 
> This guy holds a special place in my heart - hopefully someone has a copy laying around:
> http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdcomp
> 
> sucks I just purged my old IRIX 6.5.x and SGI hardware documentation from my library about a year ago :/
> 

Will this do?

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From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 23 14:34:55 2012
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:34:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical
 copies of dead tree unix manuals?
In-Reply-To: <C864D517-7E7D-4AA2-8971-982C6AD3609A@fetissov.org>
References: <CABsCM1OUD0riHr4hN+tfNDZn2aQjgBnAMj2eNk7Dp7gZgpMbaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50D207CF.40603@nomadlogic.org>
 <C864D517-7E7D-4AA2-8971-982C6AD3609A@fetissov.org>
Message-ID: <CABsCM1N2uA8+TPrJFL=RJHHFetzwO=fkVAk-LE978vpxHFkHwg@mail.gmail.com>

OK that's good.  Thanks. I have some other ones in the works.  Ill upload
it to Wikipedia.

Justin
On Dec 23, 2012 1:31 PM, "Nikolai Fetissov" <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:

> On Dec 19, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
>
> > On 12/19/12 08:48, Justin Dearing wrote:
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> Today I realized there are no pictures of unix manuals on the wikipedia
> man entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page). Google images doesn't
> have much either.
> >>
> >> Twice in my life have I seen real unix manuals. One was for some AT&T
> flavor and one was for AUX. In both cases they were in binders that were of
> executive paper size or smaller. I believe the AT&T ones were grey with
> blue writing and the A/UX ones were red with black or gold.
> >>
> >> If anyone has actual dead tree copies can they take pictues and uplaod
> them to wikimedia, or flickr-CC before these peices of history all get
> thrown away?
> >
> > This guy holds a special place in my heart - hopefully someone has a
> copy laying around:
> > http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdcomp
> >
> > sucks I just purged my old IRIX 6.5.x and SGI hardware documentation
> from my library about a year ago :/
> >
>
> Will this do?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
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From brian.gupta at gmail.com  Mon Dec 24 23:46:06 2012
From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 23:46:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Freebsd provisioning?
Message-ID: <CAAGunsTDSOJf0upGtfc_2vHHQf7qM9ZUY-PmPWcM=JHLfSRkgQ@mail.gmail.com>

What is the standard open source tool/framework for provisioning bare metal
Freebsd servers? (Google isn't helping here, as it seems the answer is a
mishmash of commercial tools, which I find hard to believe.)

- Brian Gupta

New York City user groups calendar:
http://nyc.brandorr.com/
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From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Mon Dec 24 23:52:00 2012
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 23:52:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Freebsd provisioning?
In-Reply-To: <CAAGunsTDSOJf0upGtfc_2vHHQf7qM9ZUY-PmPWcM=JHLfSRkgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAGunsTDSOJf0upGtfc_2vHHQf7qM9ZUY-PmPWcM=JHLfSRkgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwxARUknXEgpS0XZap=61Xn8wH-zqC0vyw=rONmWLTcRbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Cobler. Pxe + dhcp + dhcp.

On Monday, December 24, 2012, Brian Gupta <brian.gupta at gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the standard open source tool/framework for provisioning bare
metal Freebsd servers? (Google isn't helping here, as it seems the answer
is a mishmash of commercial tools, which I find hard to believe.)
>
> - Brian Gupta
>
> New York City user groups calendar:
> http://nyc.brandorr.com/
>
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From nycbug at wynn.com  Thu Dec 27 11:39:58 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:39:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] craigslist blocking tor
Message-ID: <20121227113958.15e13db3@ivory.wynn.com>

Greeting-

While I have a tor node running on my network to just be an internet
good guy I rarely use tor myself because much of the time it is slower
than direct access to the given resource.

Today I decided to try making tor a part of my normal daily life and I
discovered the following when trying to hit newyork.craigslist.org:

This IP has been automatically blocked.
Questions: blocks-b13559612108636 at craigslist.org.

Needless to say I am disappointed with the craigslist people, but this
seems to go hand in hand with them wanting a phone number from a number
that can be pinned to an individual to allow posting adverts.

What is the world coming to?  We are moving back to central control of
information and computing resources that the PC revolution liberated us
from 30 years ago.  

-Brett

-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435



From ahpook at verizon.net  Thu Dec 27 13:53:11 2012
From: ahpook at verizon.net (Ah Pook)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 13:53:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] craigslist blocking tor
In-Reply-To: <20121227113958.15e13db3@ivory.wynn.com>
References: <20121227113958.15e13db3@ivory.wynn.com>
Message-ID: <50DC9917.7040009@verizon.net>

On 12/27/2012 11:39 AM, Brett Wynkoop wrote:
> Today I decided to try making tor a part of my normal daily life and I
> discovered the following when trying to hit newyork.craigslist.org:
>
> This IP has been automatically blocked.
> Questions: blocks-b13559612108636 at craigslist.org.

I know in the past they've blocked individual exit nodes, but maybe not 
on this scale...  Craigslist gets an ungodly amount of spam, so I can't 
speculate on whether it's that or

 > hand in hand with them wanting a phone number from a number that can
 > be pinned to an individual to allow posting adverts.

*shrug*  It's the downside of tor - it does what it's supposed to.  If 
the number of legitimate users not being able to use their sites 
directly affects their bottom line, I'm sure they'll reconsider.



From cmacgreg at gmail.com  Mon Dec 31 00:36:51 2012
From: cmacgreg at gmail.com (Craig MacGregor)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:36:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical
 copies of dead tree unix manuals?
Message-ID: <CADXBWOaFy8Ww3RaBr3vq5zDT_-HrbK1n0+PJY830TpMNV8vqrw@mail.gmail.com>

Justin,

A friend of mine directed me to your post, and I managed to dig up a small
sampling of some of the ancient UNIX docs I acquired during my high school
days scouring book sales, garage sales, and trash heaps in Union County,
NJ, while I was home for these holidays. Unfortunately, the only thing I
*couldn't* find was my real deal, executive-size, comb-bound Bell Labs
Seventh Edition manual. Or maybe it was Sixth Edition-- it had some
different games than the .bun files out there (including "jotto"). I
haven't seen it in a few years, but I know I didn't get rid of it.  I know
I had one of those AT&T manual binders you mentioned, too, but I definitely
had to toss it due to water damage.  I've still got plenty of other
training binders, and even 5 early 80's VHS tapes on UNIX from AT&T....
again, when I find it all.

I've posted a sampling of some of the Bell Labs and similar docs to
wikimedia, I hope it helps (or is at least interesting):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Unix_Manuals

And one of these days, something won't come up the day of an NYCBUG meetup
at Suspenders, I only work 4 blocks away!

-craig
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From ahpook at verizon.net  Mon Dec 31 00:53:22 2012
From: ahpook at verizon.net (Ah Pook)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:53:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Does anyone have any pictures or physical
 copies of dead tree unix manuals?
In-Reply-To: <CADXBWOaFy8Ww3RaBr3vq5zDT_-HrbK1n0+PJY830TpMNV8vqrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADXBWOaFy8Ww3RaBr3vq5zDT_-HrbK1n0+PJY830TpMNV8vqrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E12852.6080607@verizon.net>

On 12/31/2012 12:36 AM, Craig MacGregor wrote:
> And one of these days, something won't come up the day of an NYCBUG
> meetup at Suspenders, I only work 4 blocks away!

s/Suspenders, I only (work)/my $1,/  :-D  Party at your place!

I remember throwing out a cubic yard of these.  We had another box 
completely full of Model Ms, too.  I grabbed a bunch, but...
*wistful sigh*



From nycbug at wynn.com  Mon Dec 31 17:15:39 2012
From: nycbug at wynn.com (Brett Wynkoop)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:15:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD foundation
Message-ID: <20121231171539.19b96add@ivory.wynn.com>

Greeting-

You still have a couple of hours to donate to the FreeBSD Foundation
and take it off of your 2012 taxes.  Last I heard they are in need of
money.

-Brett

-- 

wynkoop at wynn.com               http://prd4.wynn.com/wynkoop/pgp-keys.txt
917-642-6924
718-717-5435