From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sat Mar 3 22:43:05 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 22:43:05 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Weird build problem on FBSD 8.3-PRERELEASE Message-ID: <4F52E4C9.3000602@ceetonetechnology.com> (In the old days, people were more than interested in posting this sort of stuff, so I thought I'd bring back some of that old flavor. We used to be much more humble. :) So following FreeBSD stable on a particular box, I hacked away at the kernel for some specific needs. buildworld kept dying, and I determined that for some crazy reason, even after csup'g, that the file /usr/src/contrib/binutils/ld/gen-doc.txi was missing. The rest of the directory was populated with the correct files. I resolved it quickly by copying it over from another box once I figured it out, but I still don't know how this file wouldn't be there in the first place. Both boxes were csup'd from the same mirror (cvsup9). So no point in confirming that the file is on the mirror. Nothing fancy going on in the build, just the usual csup, buildworld, etc. Any insights? g From spork at bway.net Sun Mar 4 00:11:33 2012 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 00:11:33 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Weird build problem on FBSD 8.3-PRERELEASE In-Reply-To: <4F52E4C9.3000602@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F52E4C9.3000602@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <75FE1D9C-3960-43B8-AC48-06E745534255@bway.net> On Mar 3, 2012, at 10:43 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > (In the old days, people were more than interested in posting this sort of stuff, so I thought I'd bring back some of that old flavor. We used to be much more humble. :) > > So following FreeBSD stable on a particular box, I hacked away at the kernel for some specific needs. > > buildworld kept dying, and I determined that for some crazy reason, even after csup'g, that the file /usr/src/contrib/binutils/ld/gen-doc.txi was missing. The rest of the directory was populated with the correct files. > > I resolved it quickly by copying it over from another box once I figured it out, but I still don't know how this file wouldn't be there in the first place. > > Both boxes were csup'd from the same mirror (cvsup9). So no point in confirming that the file is on the mirror. Nothing fancy going on in the build, just the usual csup, buildworld, etc. > > Any insights? I generally read -stable everyday, and in the past few months I've seen numerous reports of one or two goofy cvsup servers screwing things up for people. I never saw any discussion of the root cause or whether the servers were pulled from the pool, but in all cases the underlying weirdness (which sounds much like yours) was resolved by switching to another cvsup mirror. C > g > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Charles Sprickman NetEng/SysAdmin Bway.net - New York's Best Internet www.bway.net spork at bway.net - 212.982.9800 From jhellenthal at dataix.net Sun Mar 4 14:52:51 2012 From: jhellenthal at dataix.net (Jason Hellenthal) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 14:52:51 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Weird build problem on FBSD 8.3-PRERELEASE In-Reply-To: <75FE1D9C-3960-43B8-AC48-06E745534255@bway.net> References: <4F52E4C9.3000602@ceetonetechnology.com> <75FE1D9C-3960-43B8-AC48-06E745534255@bway.net> Message-ID: <20120304195251.GA89679@DataIX.net> On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 12:11:33AM -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote: > > On Mar 3, 2012, at 10:43 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > > > (In the old days, people were more than interested in posting this sort of stuff, so I thought I'd bring back some of that old flavor. We used to be much more humble. :) > > > > So following FreeBSD stable on a particular box, I hacked away at the kernel for some specific needs. > > > > buildworld kept dying, and I determined that for some crazy reason, even after csup'g, that the file /usr/src/contrib/binutils/ld/gen-doc.txi was missing. The rest of the directory was populated with the correct files. > > > > I resolved it quickly by copying it over from another box once I figured it out, but I still don't know how this file wouldn't be there in the first place. > > > > Both boxes were csup'd from the same mirror (cvsup9). So no point in confirming that the file is on the mirror. Nothing fancy going on in the build, just the usual csup, buildworld, etc. > > > > Any insights? > > I generally read -stable everyday, and in the past few months I've seen numerous reports of one or two goofy cvsup servers screwing things up for people. I never saw any discussion of the root cause or whether the servers were pulled from the pool, but in all cases the underlying weirdness (which sounds much like yours) was resolved by switching to another cvsup mirror. > Or using SVN: (I reccomend it over the use of [cvsup/csup]) svn co svn://svn.freebsd.org/base/stable/8/ /usr/src/ After... When you nened to update. cd /usr/src ; svn up -- ;s =; -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: not available URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sun Mar 4 20:07:54 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:07:54 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Weird build problem on FBSD 8.3-PRERELEASE In-Reply-To: <20120304195251.GA89679@DataIX.net> References: <4F52E4C9.3000602@ceetonetechnology.com> <75FE1D9C-3960-43B8-AC48-06E745534255@bway.net> <20120304195251.GA89679@DataIX.net> Message-ID: <4F5411EA.4070603@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/04/12 14:52, Jason Hellenthal wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 12:11:33AM -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote: >> >> On Mar 3, 2012, at 10:43 PM, George Rosamond wrote: >> >>> (In the old days, people were more than interested in posting >>> this sort of stuff, so I thought I'd bring back some of that old >>> flavor. We used to be much more humble. :) >>> >>> So following FreeBSD stable on a particular box, I hacked away at >>> the kernel for some specific needs. >>> >>> buildworld kept dying, and I determined that for some crazy >>> reason, even after csup'g, that the file >>> /usr/src/contrib/binutils/ld/gen-doc.txi was missing. The rest >>> of the directory was populated with the correct files. >>> >>> I resolved it quickly by copying it over from another box once I >>> figured it out, but I still don't know how this file wouldn't be >>> there in the first place. >>> >>> Both boxes were csup'd from the same mirror (cvsup9). So no >>> point in confirming that the file is on the mirror. Nothing >>> fancy going on in the build, just the usual csup, buildworld, >>> etc. >>> >>> Any insights? >> >> I generally read -stable everyday, and in the past few months I've >> seen numerous reports of one or two goofy cvsup servers screwing >> things up for people. I never saw any discussion of the root cause >> or whether the servers were pulled from the pool, but in all cases >> the underlying weirdness (which sounds much like yours) was >> resolved by switching to another cvsup mirror. Thanks Spork. . . yeah, I didn't try other mirrors, but again, as mentioned, another box was updated from cvsup9, and I'd assume the source would be the same. . . It was easily resolvable, but it has never happened to me before, so I was a bit perplexed. I'm on a minimum-list-membership period of my life. . . reading /usr/src/UPDATING is more than enough :) >> > > Or using SVN: (I reccomend it over the use of [cvsup/csup]) svn co > svn://svn.freebsd.org/base/stable/8/ /usr/src/ > > After... When you nened to update. cd /usr/src ; svn up > Yeah. . . that's useful. I need to start doing that. I tend to be conservative on methods. I still use portupgrade more than portmaster, etc. still, despite being mocked by someone else on admin@ ;-' g From jonathan at kc8onw.net Sun Mar 4 21:07:15 2012 From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (Jonathan) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:07:15 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Home storage server build Message-ID: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> After having 2 drives fail within hours of each other and losing yet another stick of RAM in my current 6 year old FreeBSD ZFS storage server I'm looking at building a new one next week. If people are interested I'll try to keep the list up to date on what I find. My current requirements: Budget - Probably $500-$1000 Must have ECC RAM My current hardware (that I will reuse): Coolmaster Stacker case w/ 850 watt power supply My current drive array 4x 1.5TB and 4x 2TB drives (2x ZFS RAIDZ) LSI SAS 3081E-R HBA 2x 5in4 SATA hot swap bays My current question is what motherboards would you recommend? Brands to look at or avoid or specific models are welcome. Currently the best performance per dollar for a CPU seems to be the Intel E3-1230 or E3-1235 by quite a bit http://ark.intel.com/products/family/59137. AMD offerings in the same price range don't appear to have anywhere near the performance. I plan to put as much RAM on the board as my budget can handle. Jonathan From spork at bway.net Sun Mar 4 23:17:40 2012 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 23:17:40 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Home storage server build In-Reply-To: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> References: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> Message-ID: <96507B84-6AC9-4F3F-B421-34A6A4EF221C@bway.net> On Mar 4, 2012, at 9:07 PM, Jonathan wrote: > After having 2 drives fail within hours of each other and losing yet > another stick of RAM in my current 6 year old FreeBSD ZFS storage server > I'm looking at building a new one next week. If people are interested > I'll try to keep the list up to date on what I find. > > My current requirements: > Budget - Probably $500-$1000 > Must have ECC RAM > > My current hardware (that I will reuse): > Coolmaster Stacker case w/ 850 watt power supply > My current drive array 4x 1.5TB and 4x 2TB drives (2x ZFS RAIDZ) > LSI SAS 3081E-R HBA > 2x 5in4 SATA hot swap bays > > My current question is what motherboards would you recommend? Brands to > look at or avoid or specific models are welcome. > > Currently the best performance per dollar for a CPU seems to be the > Intel E3-1230 or E3-1235 by quite a bit > http://ark.intel.com/products/family/59137. AMD offerings in the same > price range don't appear to have anywhere near the performance. > > I plan to put as much RAM on the board as my budget can handle. With your budget, I'd have a look at dropping two of these in for ZIL: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167044 Depending on what you do with the box, putting ZIL on SSD drives can have a pretty dramatic effect. I just did a bunch of benchmarking on this stuff with postgresql and it was an eye-opener. I suspect that if you're doing anything like serving up shares to VMs at home or anything else that could generate lots of sync writes, you'd see a huge boost. If it's just a simple fileserver, then probably not worth it (although the price of SSDs is getting low enough that $200 might be justifiable as an "experiment"). Charles > > Jonathan > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From akosela at andykosela.com Mon Mar 5 09:56:00 2012 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:56:00 +0100 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FOSDEM 2012 Message-ID: Anyone attended? It looks the BSD presence there was very strong http://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2012/03/trip-report-fosdem-2012.html Hopefully someone was there with a camcorder and will put everything on youtube bsdconferences channel. --Andy From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Mar 5 10:17:05 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:17:05 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Character Frequency Analyzer Message-ID: <4F54D8F1.3020108@ceetonetechnology.com> A bit OT, but very cool: www.characterfrequencyanalyzer.com For those who don't know, the basis of cryptanalysis is frequency analysis. In English, the larger the body of text, the more likely that the frequency of letters will match: ETAOINSHRDLU g From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Mar 5 10:21:31 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:21:31 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FOSDEM 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F54D9FB.8020002@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/05/12 09:56, Andy Kosela wrote: > Anyone attended? It looks the BSD presence there was very strong > > http://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2012/03/trip-report-fosdem-2012.html > > Hopefully someone was there with a camcorder and will put everything > on youtube bsdconferences channel. > Definitely. I haven't been, but there's a lot about FOSDEM that is done right, from what I've seen remotely. g From jamex1642 at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 12:39:06 2012 From: jamex1642 at gmail.com (James) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:39:06 -0600 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Character Frequency Analyzer In-Reply-To: <4F54D8F1.3020108@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F54D8F1.3020108@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:17 AM, George Rosamond wrote: > A bit OT, but very cool: > > www.characterfrequencyanalyzer.com There is also stan from ports/sysutils on OpenBSD Stan is a console application that analyzes binary streams and calculates several useful statistical information from the observed data. It features statistical, pattern and bit analysis. Stan has been designed as a "swiss-knife" for first steps in reverse engineering and cryptographic analysis. From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Mar 5 12:47:01 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:47:01 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Character Frequency Analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <4F54D8F1.3020108@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4F54FC15.1090807@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/05/12 12:39, James wrote: > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:17 AM, George Rosamond > wrote: >> A bit OT, but very cool: >> >> www.characterfrequencyanalyzer.com > > There is also stan from ports/sysutils on OpenBSD > > > > Stan is a console application that analyzes binary streams and > calculates several useful statistical information from the observed > data. It features statistical, pattern and bit analysis. Stan has been > designed as a "swiss-knife" for first steps in reverse engineering and > cryptographic analysis. wow. Cool stuff. A nice additional way to test with or without crypto accelerators, probably too. g From jonathan at kc8onw.net Tue Mar 6 19:49:13 2012 From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (Jonathan) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:49:13 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Home storage server build In-Reply-To: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> References: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> Message-ID: <4F56B089.3090906@kc8onw.net> On 3/4/2012 9:07 PM, Jonathan wrote: > My current question is what motherboards would you recommend? Brands to > look at or avoid or specific models are welcome. I've narrowed it down to 2 models one Intel board and one SuperMicro board. Does anyone have any suggestions either way? I can't seem to find any feature that would force me to choose one over the other and I need to decide tonight so they arrive in time. I'll order the parts at midnight EST so if you see this before then please let me know what you think. http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=motherboard&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10910872277814236360&sa=X&ei=aZJWT6nTLcKJgwfTu9HDCg&ved=0CNcBEOUNMAA and http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=motherboard&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1344085792576345577&sa=X&ei=aZJWT6nTLcKJgwfTu9HDCg&ved=0CPkBEOUNMAI Jonathan From jkeen at verizon.net Tue Mar 6 19:32:19 2012 From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 19:32:19 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Later meeting time not helpful Message-ID: <4F56AC93.3010907@verizon.net> On announce at lists.nycbug.org, I got a message which said in part: > March 07, 2012 > > Tcl > > 7 PM, Suspenders Restaurant backroom > 111 Broadway in Manhattan > > (note later meeting time!) Has a decision been made to push back the meeting start-time on a permanent basis? If so, that's less convenient for me. I preferred the 6:30 start-time, found 6:45 less convenient, and will find 7:00 even less so -- particularly since the presentations rarely start before 15 minutes into the meeting. Thank you very much. Jim Keenan From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Mar 6 22:36:22 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 22:36:22 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Later meeting time not helpful In-Reply-To: <4F56AC93.3010907@verizon.net> References: <4F56AC93.3010907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F56D7B6.1070007@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/06/12 19:32, James E Keenan wrote: > On announce at lists.nycbug.org, I got a message which said in part: > > > March 07, 2012 > > > > Tcl > > > > 7 PM, Suspenders Restaurant backroom > > 111 Broadway in Manhattan > > > > (note later meeting time!) > > Has a decision been made to push back the meeting start-time on a > permanent basis? > > If so, that's less convenient for me. I preferred the 6:30 start-time, > found 6:45 less convenient, and will find 7:00 even less so -- > particularly since the presentations rarely start before 15 minutes into > the meeting. > > Thank you very much. Tomorrow is just a temporary occurrence. But I think we've found that 645 works for the majority of people. If everyone just worked 9-5, life would be sooo much easier. Anyone remember those times? g From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Wed Mar 7 06:35:19 2012 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 06:35:19 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Character Frequency Analyzer In-Reply-To: <4F54FC15.1090807@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F54D8F1.3020108@ceetonetechnology.com> <4F54FC15.1090807@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4F5747F7.8010004@belovedarctos.com> On 3/5/2012 12:47 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > On 03/05/12 12:39, James wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:17 AM, George Rosamond >> wrote: >>> A bit OT, but very cool: >>> >>> www.characterfrequencyanalyzer.com >> >> There is also stan from ports/sysutils on OpenBSD >> >> >> >> Stan is a console application that analyzes binary streams and >> calculates several useful statistical information from the observed >> data. It features statistical, pattern and bit analysis. Stan has been >> designed as a "swiss-knife" for first steps in reverse engineering and >> cryptographic analysis. I wrote a small script that I guess you could lump in the same category as these. The problem being that many log files contain tons of meaningless redundant lines of text and a few really important error messages, but we sometimes attribute a cause to the redundant lines of text just because of the high frequency of them. To help this, this script would take the log file and take every line, strip out the datestamp and every word that didn't exist in the local dict file. Then make that a hash key with the line as a value (continually overwriting whatever was there before for that key). Then the output would be the count of those lines and the value, ie. sample, of what that line looked like unstripped. You would effectively get all the error types of the logs and a frequency of them in a much more compact view. -Bjorn From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Mar 8 02:02:18 2012 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 02:02:18 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] March TCL slides link Message-ID: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LlBQFqleam22XeIKVAFWfkA0IWfQll8p1P67sDu0X8Q/edit -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. --John McCarthy From jhb at freebsd.org Thu Mar 8 11:16:04 2012 From: jhb at freebsd.org (John Baldwin) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 11:16:04 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Home storage server build In-Reply-To: <4F56B089.3090906@kc8onw.net> References: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> <4F56B089.3090906@kc8onw.net> Message-ID: <201203081116.04756.jhb@freebsd.org> On Tuesday, March 06, 2012 7:49:13 pm Jonathan wrote: > On 3/4/2012 9:07 PM, Jonathan wrote: > > My current question is what motherboards would you recommend? Brands to > > look at or avoid or specific models are welcome. > > I've narrowed it down to 2 models one Intel board and one SuperMicro > board. Does anyone have any suggestions either way? I can't seem to > find any feature that would force me to choose one over the other and I > need to decide tonight so they arrive in time. I'll order the parts at > midnight EST so if you see this before then please let me know what you > think. > > http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=motherboard&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10910872277814236360&sa=X&ei=aZJWT6nTLcKJgwfTu9HDCg&ved=0CNcBEOUNMAA > and > http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=motherboard&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=1344085792576345577&sa=X&ei=aZJWT6nTLcKJgwfTu9HDCg&ved=0CPkBEOUNMAI > > Jonathan If you are going to use IPMI for remote management, then I would go with the SM board since SM IPMI BMC's have remote KVM, etc. whereas the Intel boards I've worked with have a much simpler IPMI BMC (you can maybe do serial-over- LAN, but not a full-blown KVM). -- John Baldwin From mark.saad at ymail.com Mon Mar 12 10:43:43 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:43:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Rsync'ng sparse files. Message-ID: All I have a curious question for the rsync users out there. Does anyone know if using -S "[To] handle sparse files efficiently" slows the rsync process down on the receiving side for all non sparse file transfers ? . I have a directory tree I am transferring between two servers in the same rack , and it would appear that using -S slows the entire job down a bit. I do not have any hard numbers at this point but I wanted to see if anyone else had seen this before or had any insight into it. -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From matthewstory at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 11:10:30 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:10:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software Message-ID: Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. There seem to me to be a variety of reasons for a project to do this: 1. Quality of software (including better maintenance) 2. Preference 3. Politics (e.g. getting away from GNU GPLv3 ... or worse the AGPLv3) A few examples come to mind immediately to me, all of which are Debian based: 1. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD Port -- http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ * GNU userland + glibc on top of the FreeBSD kernel instead of Linux 2. dash -- http://wiki.debian.org/DashAsBinSh * debian extension of the NetBSD Almquist Shell With several projects taking a stand aginst GPLv3 (most notably Linus' refusal to move Linux to GPLv3, but also Debian DFSG ruling on DFDL, etc), I would be interested in how we make components of the *BSD OSes viable alternatives for other projects, and how we as a community of users can help get those in search of GNU-replacements interacting and improving the software that we all use every day. So, anyone interested in a Meeting on dash, (or the ash port to Linux), or Debian GNU/kFreeBSD? And what are the major barriers to adoption of *BSD components by other projects to create GNU-free OSes? It seems an inevitability that this will happen at some point, as the GNU project continues to fragment itself further and further from anyone trying to do work with any potential commercial application. -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 11:30:06 2012 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:30:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Apache v2 license is a BSD style one. Our shop is a very high % apache software. I am not sure if you want to count that. On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and > pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. ?And the various > reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate > distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. > > There seem to me to be a variety of reasons for a project to do this: > > 1. Quality of software (including better maintenance) > 2. Preference > 3. Politics (e.g. getting away from GNU GPLv3 ... or worse the AGPLv3) > > A few examples come to mind immediately to me, all of which are Debian > based: > > 1. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD Port --?http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ > ?? ? ? * GNU userland + glibc on top of the FreeBSD kernel instead of Linux > 2. dash -- http://wiki.debian.org/DashAsBinSh > ?? ? ? * debian extension of the NetBSD?Almquist Shell > > With several projects taking a stand aginst GPLv3 (most notably Linus' > refusal to move Linux to GPLv3, but also Debian DFSG ruling on DFDL, etc), I > would be interested in how we make components of the *BSD OSes viable > alternatives for other projects, and how we as a community of users can help > get those in search of GNU-replacements interacting and improving the > software that we all use every day. > > So, anyone interested in a Meeting on dash, (or the ash port to Linux), or > Debian GNU/kFreeBSD? ?And what are the major barriers to adoption of *BSD > components by other projects to create GNU-free OSes? ?It seems an > inevitability that this will happen at some point, as the GNU project > continues to fragment itself further and further from anyone trying to do > work with any potential commercial application. > > -- > regards, > matt > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From matthewstory at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 12:21:10 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:21:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote: > The Apache v2 license is a BSD style one. Our shop is a very high % > apache software. I am not sure if you want to count that. > My focus here was intended to be more on software produced by *BSD projects (such as the FreeBSD SMPng kernel, NetBSD Almquist shell, or more generally the POSIX 2008.1 compliant-ish shell and utilities user-land), and how portions of *BSD OSes can be usefully incorporated into other systems to the benefit of all. I think that Apache licensed software is useful fodder for discussion, but not for a *BSD User Group necessarily (unless it's software created by|for *BSD projects that happens to make use of an Apache license). While I will continue to run FreeBSD personally, and very much like the fact that it is a complete OS, with a coherent and non-political objective ... as a system, I think that *BSD projects could benefit from encouraging those who are interested in running components of this system (either kernel or userland) married with other components. Conversely, I think those involved with other projects could benefit greatly by marrying portions of *BSD systems into their own systems. I am interested in what we can do as a *BSD User Group to facilitate this dialogue (assuming that this dialogue is useful, of course). > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story > wrote: > > Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and > > pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various > > reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate > > distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. > > > > There seem to me to be a variety of reasons for a project to do this: > > > > 1. Quality of software (including better maintenance) > > 2. Preference > > 3. Politics (e.g. getting away from GNU GPLv3 ... or worse the AGPLv3) > > > > A few examples come to mind immediately to me, all of which are Debian > > based: > > > > 1. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD Port -- http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ > > * GNU userland + glibc on top of the FreeBSD kernel instead of > Linux > > 2. dash -- http://wiki.debian.org/DashAsBinSh > > * debian extension of the NetBSD Almquist Shell > > > > With several projects taking a stand aginst GPLv3 (most notably Linus' > > refusal to move Linux to GPLv3, but also Debian DFSG ruling on DFDL, etc) > That should read DFSG ruling on GFDL (Debian Free Software Guideline and Gnu Free Documentation License respectively). > >, I would be interested in how we make components of the *BSD OSes viable > > alternatives for other projects, and how we as a community of users can > help > > get those in search of GNU-replacements interacting and improving the > > software that we all use every day. > > > > So, anyone interested in a Meeting on dash, (or the ash port to Linux), > or > > Debian GNU/kFreeBSD? And what are the major barriers to adoption of *BSD > > components by other projects to create GNU-free OSes? It seems an > > inevitability that this will happen at some point, as the GNU project > > continues to fragment itself further and further from anyone trying to do > > work with any potential commercial application. > > > > -- > > regards, > > matt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk at lists.nycbug.org > > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jschauma at netmeister.org Mon Mar 12 12:24:52 2012 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:24:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Rsync'ng sparse files. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120312162452.GD19410@netmeister.org> Mark Saad wrote: > I have a curious question for the rsync users out there. Does anyone > know if using -S "[To] handle sparse files efficiently" slows the > rsync process down on the receiving side for all non sparse file > transfers ? It would have to, right? In order to seek across the hole, rsync would need to actually read the whole file and perform the checksum algorithm rather than the default "quick" check. Just speculating, though. -Jan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pete at nomadlogic.org Mon Mar 12 19:41:58 2012 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:41:58 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120312234156.GE99561@arp.nomadlogic.org> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 12:21:10PM -0400, Matthew Story wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote: > > > The Apache v2 license is a BSD style one. Our shop is a very high % > > apache software. I am not sure if you want to count that. > > > > My focus here was intended to be more on software produced by *BSD projects > (such as the FreeBSD SMPng kernel, NetBSD Almquist shell, or more > generally the POSIX 2008.1 compliant-ish shell and utilities user-land), > and how portions of *BSD OSes can be usefully incorporated into other > systems to the benefit of all. I think that Apache licensed software is > useful fodder for discussion, but not for a *BSD User Group necessarily > (unless it's software created by|for *BSD projects that happens to make use > of an Apache license). > how about closed/propritary systems which use BSD code. I think that is one of the greatest benefits of the BSD code in the real world. While things like GNU/kFreeBSD are interesting to look at - the list of very high profile systems running real production traffic that incorporate BSD is code is both long and impressive: (off top of my head) - NetApp Data OnTap - Citrix netscalers - bluecoat systems - juniper systems this does not even touch companies that run modified BSD code in their own systems with out advertising it. > While I will continue to run FreeBSD personally, and very much like the > fact that it is a complete OS, with a coherent and non-political objective > ... as a system, I think that *BSD projects could benefit from encouraging > those who are interested in running components of this system (either > kernel or userland) married with other components. Conversely, I think > those involved with other projects could benefit greatly by marrying > portions of *BSD systems into their own systems. > i personally am uneasy with projects like GNU/kFreeBSD and the like. one of the other huge benefits of a BSD unix is that it *is* a complete OS, not a kernel with bolted on userland. as such i've never understood the utility of GNU/kFreeBSD. i'm probably biased, but after working on a Nexenta system (which seems pretty similar to gnu/kfbsd) i ran crying as fast as i could and just put solaris back on the hardware. it always seemed like so much was lost just so someone could say that bash was the default shell, and look it has apt. -p -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org From akosela at andykosela.com Mon Mar 12 13:08:45 2012 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:08:45 +0100 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Matthew Story wrote: > While I will continue to run FreeBSD personally, and very much like the fact > that it is a complete OS, with a coherent and non-political objective ... as > a system, I think that *BSD projects could benefit from encouraging those > who are interested in running components of this system (either kernel or > userland) married with other components. ?Conversely, I think those involved > with other projects could benefit greatly by marrying portions of *BSD > systems into their own systems. This is exactly what we are trying to accomplish with MINIX 3 and NetBSD userland. As the MINIX philosophy is more akin to the ancient UNIX V7 goals, e.g. the emphasis is put on minimalism, simplicity and correctness, it's rather obvious to a modern researcher that *BSD systems has a more structured and lean base to work with than GNU/Linux. The license issue is also of utmost importance here. BSD license empowers the project with more opportunities, especially when it comes to commercial embedded market. We will see even more projects adopting *BSD components in their own work -- this trend is definetly picking up, and I am glad for this as I know that those components are mostly much better engineered than other competitive technologies. --Andy From billtotman at billtotman.com Mon Mar 12 14:46:47 2012 From: billtotman at billtotman.com (Bill Totman) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:46:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] March 2012 NYCBUG Audio - TCL Message-ID: Hey Talk, Here is the audio from Wednesdays' NYCBUG meeting on TCL: http://billtotman.com/NYCBUG_20120307_TCL_Marc-Spitzer.mp3 -bt From matthewstory at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 18:54:00 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:54:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: <20120312234156.GE99561@arp.nomadlogic.org> References: <20120312234156.GE99561@arp.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 12:21:10PM -0400, Matthew Story wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Edward Capriolo >wrote: > [...snip] > how about closed/propritary systems which use BSD code. I think that > is one of the greatest benefits of the BSD code in the real world. > While things like GNU/kFreeBSD are interesting to look at - the list of > very high profile systems running real production traffic that > incorporate BSD is code is both long and impressive: > > (off top of my head) > - NetApp Data OnTap > - Citrix netscalers > - bluecoat systems > - juniper systems > > this does not even touch companies that run modified BSD code in their > own systems with out advertising it. > This is an interesting angle that I hadn't considered. Many (if not all) of the above are actively devoting resources to the open portions of the systems as well, but I would be interested in hearing more about how they are modifying BSD code, and what the benefits are of working from that base ... if they are willing to share, of course. > > > While I will continue to run FreeBSD personally, and very much like the > > fact that it is a complete OS, with a coherent and non-political > objective > > ... as a system, I think that *BSD projects could benefit from > encouraging > > those who are interested in running components of this system (either > > kernel or userland) married with other components. Conversely, I think > > those involved with other projects could benefit greatly by marrying > > portions of *BSD systems into their own systems. > > > > i personally am uneasy with projects like GNU/kFreeBSD and the like. > one of the other huge benefits of a BSD unix is that it *is* a complete > OS, not a kernel with bolted on userland. as such i've never understood > the utility of GNU/kFreeBSD. i'm probably biased, but after working on > a Nexenta system (which seems pretty similar to gnu/kfbsd) i ran crying > as fast as i could and just put solaris back on the hardware. it always > seemed like so much was lost just so someone could say that bash was the > default shell, and look it has apt. > I agree that BSD systems are better largely because they are ... well ... systems. But I think it's a mistake to not advocate making use of parts of that system in other systems. My reasons for this are 2-fold: 1. More people using BSD software means more eyes (and hopefully more hands) looking (and hopefully developing) on code, and theoretically this means better code long-term, faster iteration on bugs, and generally better maintained software. This point boils down to it being better for BSD. 2. BSD software is simpler than other software, and most of the time better. This point boils down to it being better for other projects. There may be some issues with tunnel-vision resulting from the former, e.g. someone is only interested in NetBSD shell, or FreeBSD SMPng, and not interested in the overall health of NetBSD and FreeBSD as systems ... but this seems to me to be a small problem compared to the benefit of more eyes and hands on code. One way to improve the strength of the projects is to advocate the use of the system, and I certainly try to do this. But if someone is married to the Linux Kernel for legitimate reasons, or to GNU user-land for legitimate reasons, why not invite them to make use of parts of the system when they cannot use it whole hog? -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at eitanadler.com Mon Mar 12 18:57:51 2012 From: lists at eitanadler.com (Eitan Adler) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 18:57:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and > pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. ?And the various > reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate > distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. Perhaps this list could be updated too?: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_products_based_on_FreeBSD -- Eitan Adler From matthewstory at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 19:04:54 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:04:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story > wrote: > > Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and > > pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various > > reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate > > distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. > > Perhaps this list could be updated too?: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_products_based_on_FreeBSD I was unaware that Android used "significant FreeBSD code", and the Android wikipedia page only mentions Linux ... anyone know where the significant FreeBSD bits come from in Android? -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akosela at andykosela.com Mon Mar 12 19:12:21 2012 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:12:21 +0100 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 12:04 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: >> >> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story >> wrote: >> > Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and >> > pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. ?And the various >> > reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >> > distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. >> >> Perhaps this list could be updated too?: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_products_based_on_FreeBSD > > > I was unaware that Android used "significant FreeBSD code", and the Android > wikipedia page only mentions Linux ... anyone know where the significant > FreeBSD bits come from in Android? I don't know about FreeBSD code in Android, but I do know they are using NetBSD libc. --Andy From mspitzer at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 19:37:08 2012 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:37:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] March 2012 NYCBUG Audio - TCL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Basically seems to be a favorite word of mine, there are reasons I do not listen to what I say marc On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Bill Totman wrote: > Hey Talk, > > Here is the audio from Wednesdays' NYCBUG meeting on TCL: > > http://billtotman.com/NYCBUG_20120307_TCL_Marc-Spitzer.mp3 > > > -bt > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. --John McCarthy From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Mar 12 20:22:12 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:22:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] March 2012 NYCBUG Audio - TCL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5E9334.2010706@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/12/12 19:37, Marc Spitzer wrote: > Basically seems to be a favorite word of mine, there are reasons I do > not listen to what I say There are worse words to have as favorites. g From matthewstory at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 20:47:28 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:47:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Andy Kosela wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Matthew Story > wrote: > > While I will continue to run FreeBSD personally, and very much like the > fact > > that it is a complete OS, with a coherent and non-political objective > ... as > > a system, I think that *BSD projects could benefit from encouraging those > > who are interested in running components of this system (either kernel or > > userland) married with other components. Conversely, I think those > involved > > with other projects could benefit greatly by marrying portions of *BSD > > systems into their own systems. > > This is exactly what we are trying to accomplish with MINIX 3 and > NetBSD userland. As the MINIX philosophy is more akin to the ancient > UNIX V7 goals, e.g. the emphasis is put on minimalism, simplicity and > correctness, it's rather obvious to a modern researcher that *BSD > systems has a more structured and lean base to work with than > GNU/Linux. > > The license issue is also of utmost importance here. BSD license > empowers the project with more opportunities, especially when it comes > to commercial embedded market. > > We will see even more projects adopting *BSD components in their own > work -- this trend is definetly picking up, and I am glad for this as > I know that those components are mostly much better engineered than > other competitive technologies. > Was very pleased to read this in the other thread. Seems like a relationship that should be mutually beneficial, exactly the sort of marriage I was thinking about. > > --Andy > -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Mar 12 20:49:46 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:49:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/12/12 18:57, Eitan Adler wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story wrote: >> Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and >> pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various >> reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >> distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. > > Perhaps this list could be updated too?: > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_products_based_on_FreeBSD > Well, if we hosted it as a project, we would do all the BSDs, and include products with relevant libraries (android), OpenSSH, etc., I would think. Maybe a few fields: product/manufacturer/software/role/submitter/verification g From jonathan at kc8onw.net Tue Mar 13 11:05:58 2012 From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (Jonathan) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:05:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Home storage server build In-Reply-To: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> References: <4F541FD3.2000401@kc8onw.net> Message-ID: <4F5F6256.5020401@kc8onw.net> On 3/4/2012 9:07 PM, Jonathan wrote: > After having 2 drives fail within hours of each other and losing yet > another stick of RAM in my current 6 year old FreeBSD ZFS storage server > I'm looking at building a new one next week. If people are interested > I'll try to keep the list up to date on what I find. For the record I got: 2x Kingston 8GB (2 x 4GB) [16GB total] Intel Xeon E3-1230 SUPERMICRO MBD-X9SCM-F-O For the most part it's working great but there is some instability (drive timeouts and losses) with the mpt SAS controller. That started before I updated the hardware though and I think it's a regression in 9-stable. Jonathan From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:14:43 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:14:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:49 PM, George Rosamond < george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > On 03/12/12 18:57, Eitan Adler wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story >> wrote: >> >>> Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and >>> pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various >>> reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >>> distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. >>> >> >> Perhaps this list could be updated too?: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/**index.php?title=List_of_** >> products_based_on_FreeBSD >> >> > Well, if we hosted it as a project, we would do all the BSDs, and include > products with relevant libraries (android), OpenSSH, etc., I would think. > > Maybe a few fields: > > product/manufacturer/software/**role/submitter/verification > > You're suggesting a NYC*BUG curated list of projects that make use of BSD software from any of the projects on www.? -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Mar 13 11:16:07 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:16:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4F5F64B7.1090500@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/13/12 11:14, Matthew Story wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:49 PM, George Rosamond< > george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > >> On 03/12/12 18:57, Eitan Adler wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits and >>>> pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various >>>> reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >>>> distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. >>>> >>> >>> Perhaps this list could be updated too?: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/**index.php?title=List_of_** >>> products_based_on_FreeBSD >>> >>> >> Well, if we hosted it as a project, we would do all the BSDs, and include >> products with relevant libraries (android), OpenSSH, etc., I would think. >> >> Maybe a few fields: >> >> product/manufacturer/software/**role/submitter/verification >> >> > > > You're suggesting a NYC*BUG curated list of projects that make use of BSD > software from any of the projects on www.? > > Yes. A central repository for anyone to upload. The problem is verification, IMHO. g From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:19:46 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:19:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: <4F5F64B7.1090500@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> <4F5F64B7.1090500@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:16 AM, George Rosamond < george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > On 03/13/12 11:14, Matthew Story wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:49 PM, George Rosamond< >> george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: >> >> On 03/12/12 18:57, Eitan Adler wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits >>>>> and >>>>> pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various >>>>> reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >>>>> distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Perhaps this list could be updated too?: >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/****index.php?title=List_of_** >>>> products_based_on_FreeBSD>>> php?title=List_of_products_**based_on_FreeBSD >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, if we hosted it as a project, we would do all the BSDs, and >>> include >>> products with relevant libraries (android), OpenSSH, etc., I would think. >>> >>> Maybe a few fields: >>> >>> product/manufacturer/software/****role/submitter/verification >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> You're suggesting a NYC*BUG curated list of projects that make use of BSD >> software from any of the projects on www.? >> >> >> > Yes. A central repository for anyone to upload. The problem is > verification, IMHO. Could kill 2 birds with one stone on the verification, ask posters to provide a list of components, and the location of those components in the project ... that way we could solve the wikipedia problem of ... "where does android use extensive freebsd software" (my guess on that is that sandbox makes extensive use of jail(8) ... but haven't actually gone diving into the source). -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Mar 13 11:22:07 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:22:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> <4F5F64B7.1090500@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4F5F661F.6080606@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/13/12 11:19, Matthew Story wrote: > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:16 AM, George Rosamond< > george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > >> On 03/13/12 11:14, Matthew Story wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:49 PM, George Rosamond< >>> george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: >>> >>> On 03/12/12 18:57, Eitan Adler wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits >>>>>> and >>>>>> pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the various >>>>>> reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >>>>>> distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Perhaps this list could be updated too?: >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/****index.php?title=List_of_** >>>>> products_based_on_FreeBSD>>>> php?title=List_of_products_**based_on_FreeBSD >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, if we hosted it as a project, we would do all the BSDs, and >>>> include >>>> products with relevant libraries (android), OpenSSH, etc., I would think. >>>> >>>> Maybe a few fields: >>>> >>>> product/manufacturer/software/****role/submitter/verification >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> You're suggesting a NYC*BUG curated list of projects that make use of BSD >>> software from any of the projects on www.? >>> >>> >>> >> Yes. A central repository for anyone to upload. The problem is >> verification, IMHO. > > > Could kill 2 birds with one stone on the verification, ask posters to > provide a list of components, and the location of those components in the > project ... that way we could solve the wikipedia problem of ... "where > does android use extensive freebsd software" (my guess on that is that > sandbox makes extensive use of jail(8) ... but haven't actually gone diving > into the source). See above in field listing. The question is how to implement what is essentially an organizational solution for technical verification. I assume we'd have a staging/upload area, then have others verify based on submitted fields. g From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:47:42 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:47:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: <4F5F661F.6080606@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F5E99AA.40501@ceetonetechnology.com> <4F5F64B7.1090500@ceetonetechnology.com> <4F5F661F.6080606@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:22 AM, George Rosamond < george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: > On 03/13/12 11:19, Matthew Story wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:16 AM, George Rosamond< >> george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: >> >> On 03/13/12 11:14, Matthew Story wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:49 PM, George Rosamond< >>>> george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 03/12/12 18:57, Eitan Adler wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Matthew Story< >>>>> matthewstory at gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Wanted to put out a feeler about doing some meetings on the benefits >>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> pitfalls of porting *BSD software to non-BSD systems. And the >>>>>>> various >>>>>>> reasons why projects choose to do this, or to support alternate >>>>>>> distributions of their software that provide optional *BSD software. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps this list could be updated too?: >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/******index.php?title=List_of_** >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> products_based_on_FreeBSD<**http**s://en.wikipedia.org/w/**index.** >>>>>> php?title=List_of_products_****based_on_FreeBSD>>>>> wikipedia.org/w/index.php?**title=List_of_products_based_**on_FreeBSD >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, if we hosted it as a project, we would do all the BSDs, and >>>>>> >>>>> include >>>>> products with relevant libraries (android), OpenSSH, etc., I would >>>>> think. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe a few fields: >>>>> >>>>> product/manufacturer/software/******role/submitter/**verification >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> You're suggesting a NYC*BUG curated list of projects that make use of >>>> BSD >>>> software from any of the projects on www.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. A central repository for anyone to upload. The problem is >>> verification, IMHO. >>> >> >> >> Could kill 2 birds with one stone on the verification, ask posters to >> provide a list of components, and the location of those components in the >> project ... that way we could solve the wikipedia problem of ... "where >> does android use extensive freebsd software" (my guess on that is that >> sandbox makes extensive use of jail(8) ... but haven't actually gone >> diving >> into the source). >> > > See above in field listing. > gotcha, sorry I missed that the first time around. > > The question is how to implement what is essentially an organizational > solution for technical verification. > As long as we collected some contact information (as suggested by the submitter field above) so that we could reach out for clarification, it seems like this could be solved by verification volunteers. I'd be happy to volunteer for verification work. > I assume we'd have a staging/upload area, then have others verify based on > submitted fields. Makes sense to me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Mar 13 19:50:45 2012 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:50:45 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting Feeler: Non-BSD projects Using BSD software In-Reply-To: References: <20120312234156.GE99561@arp.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20120313235043.GA56642@arp.nomadlogic.org> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 06:54:00PM -0400, Matthew Story wrote: > > i personally am uneasy with projects like GNU/kFreeBSD and the like. > > one of the other huge benefits of a BSD unix is that it *is* a complete > > OS, not a kernel with bolted on userland. as such i've never understood > > the utility of GNU/kFreeBSD. i'm probably biased, but after working on > > a Nexenta system (which seems pretty similar to gnu/kfbsd) i ran crying > > as fast as i could and just put solaris back on the hardware. it always > > seemed like so much was lost just so someone could say that bash was the > > default shell, and look it has apt. > > > > I agree that BSD systems are better largely because they are ... well ... > systems. But I think it's a mistake to not advocate making use of parts of > that system in other systems. My reasons for this are 2-fold: > > 1. More people using BSD software means more eyes (and hopefully more > hands) looking (and hopefully developing) on code, and theoretically this > means better code long-term, faster iteration on bugs, and generally better > maintained software. This point boils down to it being better for BSD. yea that is a really good point that i tend to forget when i have my gumpy admin hat on :) > 2. BSD software is simpler than other software, and most of the time > better. This point boils down to it being better for other projects. > > There may be some issues with tunnel-vision resulting from the former, e.g. > someone is only interested in NetBSD shell, or FreeBSD SMPng, and not > interested in the overall health of NetBSD and FreeBSD as systems ... but > this seems to me to be a small problem compared to the benefit of more eyes > and hands on code. > > One way to improve the strength of the projects is to advocate the use of > the system, and I certainly try to do this. But if someone is married to > the Linux Kernel for legitimate reasons, or to GNU user-land for legitimate > reasons, why not invite them to make use of parts of the system when they > cannot use it whole hog? > yea i tend to agree with this for sure c.f: openssh, tmux et. al. my only concern is that as an enduser of BSD unix systems is that resources that could be put towards documenting and testing are being siphoned off for side projects that I am not personally interested in :) the reality though is most certainly closer to what you are saying though - these are all symptoms of a healthy ecosystem, lots of diversity. -p -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org From ike at blackskyresearch.net Tue Mar 13 21:08:54 2012 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:08:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> Message-ID: <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> Hi Jason, Sorry this took me time to get back to, but your comments are more than welcome- they got me going in the right direction faster: On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:21 AM, Jason Hellenthal wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 04:57:35PM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote: >> Hi All, >> > > Hi. > >> In the spirit of the dmesg db, I need your sysctls! >> >> Off-list, just send me the output from: >> # sysctl -oa ; echo '--' ; dmesg >> >> Or, if your host has local mail facility: >> # echo "`sysctl -oa ; echo '--' ; dmesg`" | mail -s "ike sysctl quest" ike at blackskyresearch.net >> > > This is a nice idea and all and dont get me wrong, I am not against it, > but it would seem more beneficial in creating a structured SYSCTL_DESC > which would help in narrowing down what is already there and what is not > allowing to focus on given areas of interest. There might already be a > way to scope through the code for empty values of where the descriptions > have been left out but I just don't know about it. > > Speaking purely of FreeBSD and sysctl(9): > grep -n SYSCTL_ /usr/src/sys/*/* Running from FreeBSD svn checkout r232948: # grep -niR SYSCTL_ ./src/* | wc -l 11795 # grep -niR SYSCTL ./src/* | wc -l 18507 > > grasp the line numbers and file for further processing and the +- some > lines to grab extra context should get you pretty close to what needs to > be done. > > static int sysctl_vm_phys_free(SYSCTL_HANDLER_ARGS); > SYSCTL_OID(_vm, OID_AUTO, phys_free, CTLTYPE_STRING | CTLFLAG_RD, > NULL, 0, sysctl_vm_phys_free, "A", "Phys Free Info"); SYSCTL_OID seems key to programatically generating documentation from a tool, # grep -niR SYSCTL_OID ./* | wc -l 489 Based on your notes, I'm sortof following your approach here- the sysctl man pages in section 9 and section 3 both have a ton of info for how I can programatically get all all the mib info, so now I'm off to reasonably parsing the C source with shell utils to get what I need out of it. > > > Don't forget about "options NO_SYSCTL_DESCR" which would effectively > wipe all these out in a running kernel. # grep -niR NO_SYSCTL_DESCR ./src/* | wc -l 10 Fascinating. Not in any of the man pages either? Hrm... > > > Anyway after all this these MiBs should be able to be enumerated in a > fashion that would yield better results than just recieving random > compilations from different systems. Just my opninion. Your opinion is quite valued here- this is the way I'm headed with this now? I think I can even get all the acceptable values documented in an automated fashion from this- (e.g. will kern.foo it take '1m' as arg, or only '8388608' [bits]? Is it bootonly (loader.conf) or runtime configurable (sysctl.conf)?) I'll see as I go along here- any thoughts welcome. I'll certainly report back with what comes of it next! Best, .ike > >> >> -- >> Why do I want sysctl dumps?!? >> >> Recently, I was reminded of how many times we've discussed sysctl documentation (and the lack thereof). >> (e.g. commonly, 'is FOO.sysctl in bits or bytes?' 'is that bootonly, or runtime-configurable?' etc...) >> >> Some other people have had this thought too: >> http://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage#Document_all_sysctls >> I'm diving into this project. >> >> -- >> Why I want your sysctls? >> >> I'm finding there's particular differences in architectures, hardware drivers, defaults which are different for different hardware resources, etc? >> I want to get an idea of the possible variance right up front, so, as many sysctl dumps as possible, from as many places as possible. >> >> Again, just send me the output from: >> # sysctl -oa ; echo '--' ; dmesg >> >> WARNING: you may divulge systems information which you don't want to, if so, don't send the sysctl at all! (After all, I am just some dude on a list!) >> Your sysctl info/values could eventually end up in public view, or shared with other developers. If so I'll do my best to anonomize the data, but if you have sensitive systems info, just don't send it. >> >> -- >> What I want: >> >> I'm focused on FreeBSD, but NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and even dumps from other UNIX'es are quite welcome to me right now. Jailed systems, Xen/VmWare/Etc instances, AWS systems, whatever. Running on an obscure architecture? Running legacy systems? Even better! >> >> -- >> Later, I've got thoughts on what to *do* with the sysctl documentation, some way to collect and maintain docs across projects even. >> Perhaps a big man page will suffice. Perhaps some utility in the spirit of perror(1) would be more satisfactory. >> >> In the meantime, I want to get a good view of how much variance there actually is in sysctls themselves- and for that, I need data! >> >> Thanks in advance for any sysctls! >> > > Good luck on your quest. > > -- > ;s =; From ike at blackskyresearch.net Tue Mar 13 22:21:39 2012 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:21:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> Some messy and informative sysctl docs (circa 2005), On Mar 13, 2012, at 9:08 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > # grep -niR SYSCTL Reading source is extremely fun and rewarding, On a FreeBSD box, (not in a jail [unless you compile a kernel in there for some reason]), # cd /usr/src/tools/tools/sysdoc/ # sudo make # sudo make install And, boom- now there are more sysctl man pages: # man 5 sysctl -- Looks like Tom Rhodes started this ball rolling quite some time ago, with lazy/easy to edit configs in groff/mdoc format which can get parsed by these utilities and dropped into a working system as a man page, (man 'tunables'). Still pondering what to do next, because: - There's simply not enough sysctls documented at this point in time (Can get busy here?) - The doc strings are merely a different and seemingly more verbose version of the sysctl string, which I found sysctl itself will output: FreeBSD# sysctl -aod So? Sorry to be noisy with this one, I'm excited to find this, regardless of it's Rocket- .ike From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Mar 13 22:26:05 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:26:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <4F6001BD.6000005@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/13/12 22:21, Isaac Levy wrote: > Some messy and informative sysctl docs (circa 2005), > > On Mar 13, 2012, at 9:08 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> # grep -niR SYSCTL > > Reading source is extremely fun and rewarding, > > On a FreeBSD box, (not in a jail [unless you compile a kernel in there for some reason]), > > # cd /usr/src/tools/tools/sysdoc/ > # sudo make > # sudo make install > > And, boom- now there are more sysctl man pages: > # man 5 sysctl > > -- > Looks like Tom Rhodes started this ball rolling quite some time ago, with lazy/easy to edit configs in groff/mdoc format which can get parsed by these utilities and dropped into a working system as a man page, (man 'tunables'). > > Still pondering what to do next, because: > > - There's simply not enough sysctls documented at this point in time > (Can get busy here?) > - The doc strings are merely a different and seemingly more verbose version of the sysctl string, which I found sysctl itself will output: > FreeBSD# sysctl -aod > > So? Sorry to be noisy with this one, I'm excited to find this, regardless of it's > Keep making noise. There might be a nice fun direction to take with this quest. And I assume what you say about the lack of documentation applies to all the BSDs. g From lists at eitanadler.com Tue Mar 13 22:27:16 2012 From: lists at eitanadler.com (Eitan Adler) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:27:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > - The doc strings are merely a different and seemingly more verbose version of the sysctl string, which I found sysctl itself will output: > FreeBSD# sysctl -aod I have done some work on this in the past and am also annoyed by the obtuse nature of the sysctl documentation. I do not currently have the time to delve in each and every sysctl, but I am happy to review and commit any patches you may produce. -- Eitan Adler From ike at blackskyresearch.net Tue Mar 13 22:31:30 2012 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:31:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: <4F6001BD.6000005@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> <4F6001BD.6000005@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <201203140232.q2E2W2fd008411@rs139.luxsci.com> On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:26 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > On 03/13/12 22:21, Isaac Levy wrote: >> Some messy and informative sysctl docs (circa 2005), >> >> On Mar 13, 2012, at 9:08 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: >> >>> # grep -niR SYSCTL >> >> Reading source is extremely fun and rewarding, >> > Keep making noise. > > There might be a nice fun direction to take with this quest. Yes- Tom Rhodes had one thing right: this needs to be a system utility, and it needs to be rendered in an automated fashion. This tool's particular implementation makes some assumptins I find strange, e.g.: - it only generates docs for sysctls that a given system has available - it doesn't give complete descriptions of a sysctl in big-picture context, (not broad-use documentation) > > And I assume what you say about the lack of documentation applies to all the BSDs. For sure- all UNIX systems which implement sysctls! Rocket- .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Tue Mar 13 22:56:55 2012 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:56:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> <201203140222.q2E2M3Sa021151@rs139.luxsci.com> Message-ID: <201203140257.q2E2v3t6022223@rs139.luxsci.com> On Mar 13, 2012, at 10:27 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: >> - The doc strings are merely a different and seemingly more verbose version of the sysctl string, which I found sysctl itself will output: >> FreeBSD# sysctl -aod > > I have done some work on this in the past and am also annoyed by the obtuse > nature of the sysctl documentation. I do not currently have the time to delve in > each and every sysctl, but I am happy to review and commit any patches > you may produce. Sweet, thank you! I'll certainly take you up on that once I get further here- but I don't want to rush in and generate *more* sysctl documentation noise- I'll take my time traversing src first :) Rocket- .ike From matthewstory at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 13:49:56 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:49:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my sysctl quest In-Reply-To: <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> References: <201202282158.q1SLw3x4029485@rs139.luxsci.com> <20120229052144.GA88947@DataIX.net> <201203140109.q2E1921d003967@rs139.luxsci.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Sorry this took me time to get back to, but your comments are more than > welcome- they got me going in the right direction faster: > > On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:21 AM, Jason Hellenthal wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 04:57:35PM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Hi All, > >> > > > > Hi. > > > >> In the spirit of the dmesg db, I need your sysctls! > >> > >> Off-list, just send me the output from: > >> # sysctl -oa ; echo '--' ; dmesg > >> > >> Or, if your host has local mail facility: > >> # echo "`sysctl -oa ; echo '--' ; dmesg`" | mail -s "ike sysctl quest" > ike at blackskyresearch.net > >> > > > > This is a nice idea and all and dont get me wrong, I am not against it, > > but it would seem more beneficial in creating a structured SYSCTL_DESC > > which would help in narrowing down what is already there and what is not > > allowing to focus on given areas of interest. There might already be a > > way to scope through the code for empty values of where the descriptions > > have been left out but I just don't know about it. > > > > Speaking purely of FreeBSD and sysctl(9): > > grep -n SYSCTL_ /usr/src/sys/*/* > > Running from FreeBSD svn checkout r232948: > > # grep -niR SYSCTL_ ./src/* | wc -l > 11795 > > # grep -niR SYSCTL ./src/* | wc -l > 18507 > > > > > grasp the line numbers and file for further processing and the +- some > > lines to grab extra context should get you pretty close to what needs to > > be done. > > > > static int sysctl_vm_phys_free(SYSCTL_HANDLER_ARGS); > > SYSCTL_OID(_vm, OID_AUTO, phys_free, CTLTYPE_STRING | CTLFLAG_RD, > > NULL, 0, sysctl_vm_phys_free, "A", "Phys Free Info"); > > SYSCTL_OID seems key to programatically generating documentation from a > tool, > > # grep -niR SYSCTL_OID ./* | wc -l > 489 > > Based on your notes, I'm sortof following your approach here- the sysctl > man pages in section 9 and section 3 both have a ton of info for how I can > programatically get all all the mib info, so now I'm off to reasonably > parsing the C source with shell utils to get what I need out of it. > > > > > > > > Don't forget about "options NO_SYSCTL_DESCR" which would effectively > > wipe all these out in a running kernel. > > # grep -niR NO_SYSCTL_DESCR ./src/* | wc -l > 10 > > Fascinating. Not in any of the man pages either? Hrm... > > > > > > > Anyway after all this these MiBs should be able to be enumerated in a > > fashion that would yield better results than just recieving random > > compilations from different systems. Just my opninion. > > Your opinion is quite valued here- this is the way I'm headed with this > now? I think I can even get all the acceptable values documented in an > automated fashion from this- (e.g. will kern.foo it take '1m' as arg, or > only '8388608' [bits]? Is it bootonly (loader.conf) or runtime > configurable (sysctl.conf)?) > I'll see as I go along here- any thoughts welcome. > > I'll certainly report back with what comes of it next! > > Best, > .ike > You should also (if you haven't already) give sysctl.h a quick read through (this probably showed up in your grep output): /usr/src/sys/sys/sysctl.h Godspeed! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 13:52:33 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:52:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Topic: tmux, Speaker: You? Message-ID: We are looking for volunteers to round out the April meeting. We all think that tmux is a long overdue topic, and thought that with the heavy use of the utility, there might be a resident expert who could bless us all with 15 - 45 minutes or so on tmux. Format can be anything you like (talk, port from screen workshop, audience hack-a-long), angle can be anything you like. Ping admin@ if you'd be interested in doing a talk in April on tmux. -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 16:07:51 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:07:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Automatically Restart Your Mac If It Freezes Message-ID: Finally giving some attention to my new PowerBook ... I mean MacBook Pro and nestled under System Preferences -> Energy Saver, I found this gem of an option: restart automatically if the computer freezes ( Screenshot available in this article praising the feature: http://osxdaily.com/2011/07/19/automatically-restart-your-mac-if-it-freezes-in-os-x-lion/) Upon further investigation, this feature has already come in handy, as Lion apparently ha[sd] a tendency to freeze on start and/or resume: http://9to5mac.com/2011/07/28/users-report-video-related-freezes-in-lion/ Not sure how I feel about this feature ... it seems that it would now be easy to achieve priv escalation via restart given a machine running with auto-restart + resume ... drop payload -> cause freeze -> (auto-restart -> resume) -> everything is fine. Thoughts? -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sun Mar 18 19:59:57 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 19:59:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Wednesday Old Timer's Night Message-ID: <4F6676FD.8090705@ceetonetechnology.com> So a few relocated people from NYC*BUG (plus Dru, who was always a regular visitor) will be around on Wednesday for dinner and a few drinks. Jim Brown, who many of you may know already, plus Bob Ippolito, who was around way back in the earlier days of NYCBUG. You may see him on talk@ on occasion. For those who don't know Dru, she's written a bunch of BSD books and is a central figure in the BSD Certification Group. We'll be meeting at Suspenders at 630 PM or so at a table (s), so your welcome to come and join us. Ask the hostess for us if you don't know anyone personally. It will be a good opportunity to have some informal discussion. g From mspitzer at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 14:58:18 2012 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:58:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] managing jails without installing src Message-ID: I have been looking into setting up a bunch of jails, all of the howto's I have found use a source build as a first step to installing binaries. is there any reason to not just the packages that come with the CD and then freebsd-update to keep it patched? I have found no docs for this route. Any pointers/advice more then welcome thanks marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. --John McCarthy From spork at bway.net Mon Mar 19 15:09:05 2012 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:09:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] managing jails without installing src In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ezjail is awesome in many ways. It does offer support for a binary install either remotely or by pointing to local install media. http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/ezjail/ A number of other features are just terribly handy - the shared base is read-only inside the jail, which helps mitigate any replacement of base utilities by miscreants, it integrates very well with zfs, handling the creation of zfs mounts for you, and has a nice built-in archiving setup for backups. I run it in production all over the place and it's my number one "not part of base" FreeBSD feature. C On Mar 19, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > I have been looking into setting up a bunch of jails, all of the > howto's I have found use a source build as a first step to installing > binaries. is there any reason to not just the packages that come with > the CD and then freebsd-update to keep it patched? I have found no > docs for this route. Any pointers/advice more then welcome > > thanks > > marc > > -- > Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. > --Albert Camus > > The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out > of other people's money. > --Margaret Thatcher > > Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. > --John McCarthy > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From mspitzer at gmail.com Mon Mar 19 21:18:28 2012 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:18:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] managing jails without installing src In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cool thanks. marc On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > ezjail is awesome in many ways. ?It does offer support for a binary install either remotely or by pointing to local install media. > > http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/ezjail/ > > A number of other features are just terribly handy - the shared base is read-only inside the jail, which helps mitigate any replacement of base utilities by miscreants, it integrates very well with zfs, handling the creation of zfs mounts for you, and has a nice built-in archiving setup for backups. ?I run it in production all over the place and it's my number one "not part of base" FreeBSD feature. > > C > > On Mar 19, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > >> I have been looking into setting up a bunch of jails, all of the >> howto's I have found use a source build as a first step to installing >> binaries. ?is there any reason to not just the packages that come with >> the CD and then freebsd-update to keep it patched? ?I have found no >> docs for this route. ?Any pointers/advice more then welcome >> >> thanks >> >> marc >> >> -- >> Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. >> --Albert Camus >> >> ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out >> of other people's money. >> --Margaret Thatcher >> >> Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. >> --John McCarthy >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. --Albert Camus ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. --Margaret Thatcher Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. --John McCarthy From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 00:21:58 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:21:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Backwards Compatibility is Important, Linus Knows This Message-ID: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/3/8/495 This was circulated briefly in an OT thread on freebsd-hackers, thought it was interesting and then promptly forgot to share it. Prime quote below ... > We're not masturbating around with some research project. > We never were. Even when Linux was young, the whole and only point > was to make a *usable* system. It's why it's not some crazy > drug-induced microkernel or other random crazy thing. -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 00:24:43 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:24:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Backwards Compatibility is Important, Linus Knows This In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/3/8/495 > > This was circulated briefly in an OT thread on freebsd-hackers, > sorry, it was on freebsd-arch, not hackers ... original thread here: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-March/012464.html > thought it was interesting and then promptly forgot to share it. Prime > quote below ... > > > We're not masturbating around with some research project. > > We never were. Even when Linux was young, the whole and only point > > was to make a *usable* system. It's why it's not some crazy > > drug-induced microkernel or other random crazy thing. > > -- > regards, > matt > -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:42:52 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:42:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD shootout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > I'm a big fan of the debian shootout benchmarks, they seem to be a > (fairly) exhaustive, and (fairly) honest set of benchmarks. I was > wondering if anyone has ported this to BSD, couldn't find anything on BSD, > but I think it would be interesting to compare the shootout benchmarks from > various flavors of Linux to various BSDs. > > The shootout code itself is python, so there should be no|little issue > getting that to run on BSD, but many of the compiled language tests are > compiled against Linux&glibc ... seems like it wouldn't be overly much > trouble, fun weekend project, but if someone has already done the work ... > > Additionally if there were another similarly exhaustive and honest set of > benchmarks out there that already compile cross *NIX, that would suffice. > > -- > regards, > matt > Naturally, I forgot to post a link to the shootout benchmarks http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:42:12 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:42:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD shootout? Message-ID: I'm a big fan of the debian shootout benchmarks, they seem to be a (fairly) exhaustive, and (fairly) honest set of benchmarks. I was wondering if anyone has ported this to BSD, couldn't find anything on BSD, but I think it would be interesting to compare the shootout benchmarks from various flavors of Linux to various BSDs. The shootout code itself is python, so there should be no|little issue getting that to run on BSD, but many of the compiled language tests are compiled against Linux&glibc ... seems like it wouldn't be overly much trouble, fun weekend project, but if someone has already done the work ... Additionally if there were another similarly exhaustive and honest set of benchmarks out there that already compile cross *NIX, that would suffice. -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark.saad at ymail.com Tue Mar 20 11:51:30 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:51:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD shootout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story > wrote: >> >> I'm a big fan of the debian shootout benchmarks, they seem to be a >> (fairly) exhaustive, and (fairly) honest set of benchmarks. ?I was wondering >> if anyone has ported this to BSD, couldn't find anything on BSD, but I think >> it would be interesting to compare the shootout benchmarks from various >> flavors of Linux to various BSDs. >> >> The shootout code itself is python, so there should be no|little issue >> getting that to run on BSD, but many of the compiled language tests are >> compiled against Linux&glibc ... seems like it wouldn't be overly much >> trouble, fun weekend project, but if someone has already done the work ... >> >> Additionally if there were another similarly exhaustive and honest set of >> benchmarks out there that already compile cross *NIX, that would suffice. >> >> -- >> regards, >> matt > > > Naturally, I forgot to post a link to the shootout benchmarks > > http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ > > -- > regards, > matt > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > Hey matt sounds like a cool idea, but if this is a debian thing whats with all the Ubuntu stuff ? -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 12:01:28 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:01:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD shootout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Mark Saad wrote: > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story > wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story > > wrote: > >> > >> I'm a big fan of the debian shootout benchmarks, they seem to be a > >> (fairly) exhaustive, and (fairly) honest set of benchmarks. I was > wondering > >> if anyone has ported this to BSD, couldn't find anything on BSD, but I > think > >> it would be interesting to compare the shootout benchmarks from various > >> flavors of Linux to various BSDs. > >> > >> The shootout code itself is python, so there should be no|little issue > >> getting that to run on BSD, but many of the compiled language tests are > >> compiled against Linux&glibc ... seems like it wouldn't be overly much > >> trouble, fun weekend project, but if someone has already done the work > ... > >> > >> Additionally if there were another similarly exhaustive and honest set > of > >> benchmarks out there that already compile cross *NIX, that would > suffice. > >> > >> -- > >> regards, > >> matt > > > > > > Naturally, I forgot to post a link to the shootout benchmarks > > > > http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ > > > > -- > > regards, > > matt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk at lists.nycbug.org > > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > Hey matt sounds like a cool idea, but if this is a debian thing whats > with all the Ubuntu stuff ? > I'm not 100% sure, but Alioth is project hosting provided by the Debian project, shootout is hosted on Alioth because Debian agreed to host it, and the author/maintainer runs the shootouts on Ubuntu on various hardware. Ubuntu did sprout from the fertile loins of Debian once upon a time (wow, I feel old ... ), maybe that's one of the reasons Debian hosts this project at Alioth. Anyway, a couple of best guesses. > > > -- > > Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian.gupta at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 15:03:12 2012 From: brian.gupta at gmail.com (Brian Gupta) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:03:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD shootout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking at the FAQ, it seems they used to use Debian unstable, and Gentoo but switched to Ubuntu. Guessing they switched off of Debian Unstable and Gentoo as they didn't want to benchmark on a moving target. Guessing they picked Ubuntu, because Ubuntu is on a timed and fairly short 6 month release cycle, so most of the time, the kernels/drivers will be newer than than Debian Stable. Quote: "Since September 2008 new measurements have been recorded and published more than 900 times. Fresh measurements are usually published several times a week in response to some trigger event - a new program was contributed, a new version of a programming language implementation was released, a new version of Ubuntu was released." Cheers, Brian On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Matthew Story wrote: > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Mark Saad wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew Story >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm a big fan of the debian shootout benchmarks, they seem to be a >> >> (fairly) exhaustive, and (fairly) honest set of benchmarks. ?I was >> >> wondering >> >> if anyone has ported this to BSD, couldn't find anything on BSD, but I >> >> think >> >> it would be interesting to compare the shootout benchmarks from various >> >> flavors of Linux to various BSDs. >> >> >> >> The shootout code itself is python, so there should be no|little issue >> >> getting that to run on BSD, but many of the compiled language tests are >> >> compiled against Linux&glibc ... seems like it wouldn't be overly much >> >> trouble, fun weekend project, but if someone has already done the work >> >> ... >> >> >> >> Additionally if there were another similarly exhaustive and honest set >> >> of >> >> benchmarks out there that already compile cross *NIX, that would >> >> suffice. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> regards, >> >> matt >> > >> > >> > Naturally, I forgot to post a link to the shootout benchmarks >> > >> > http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ >> > >> > -- >> > regards, >> > matt >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > talk mailing list >> > talk at lists.nycbug.org >> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > >> >> Hey matt sounds like a cool idea, but if this is a debian thing whats >> with all the Ubuntu stuff ? > > > I'm not 100% sure, but Alioth is project hosting provided by the Debian > project, shootout is hosted on Alioth because Debian agreed to host it, and > the author/maintainer runs the shootouts on Ubuntu on various hardware. > > Ubuntu did sprout from the fertile loins of Debian once upon a time (wow, I > feel old ... ), maybe that's one of the reasons Debian hosts this project at > Alioth. > > Anyway, a couple of best guesses. > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > -- > regards, > matt > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Mar 21 08:11:34 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 08:11:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Wednesday Old Timer's Night In-Reply-To: <4F6676FD.8090705@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <4F6676FD.8090705@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4F69C576.2050003@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/18/12 19:59, George Rosamond wrote: > So a few relocated people from NYC*BUG (plus Dru, who was always a > regular visitor) will be around on Wednesday for dinner and a few drinks. > > Jim Brown, who many of you may know already, plus Bob Ippolito, who was > around way back in the earlier days of NYCBUG. You may see him on talk@ > on occasion. > > For those who don't know Dru, she's written a bunch of BSD books and is > a central figure in the BSD Certification Group. > > We'll be meeting at Suspenders at 630 PM or so at a table (s), so your > welcome to come and join us. Ask the hostess for us if you don't know > anyone personally. It will be a good opportunity to have some informal > discussion. Reminder: This is tonight. g From mark.saad at ymail.com Wed Mar 21 10:37:02 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:37:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update Message-ID: Hello Talk Users of Facebook. If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG . Please join up, because of some issue we could not migrate users from the old group to the new one. Also if someone would like to contribute cover art for the page please message me and I would be happy to update it . -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From jschauma at netmeister.org Wed Mar 21 10:53:24 2012 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 10:53:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> Mark Saad wrote: > Hello Talk Users of Facebook. > If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new > Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG What does this group provide that the list does not? Imagine, if you can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? -Jan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jhellenthal at dataix.net Wed Mar 21 11:01:13 2012 From: jhellenthal at dataix.net (Jason Hellenthal) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:01:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <20120321150113.GA94816@DataIX.net> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Mark Saad wrote: > > Hello Talk Users of Facebook. > > If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new > > Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG > > What does this group provide that the list does not? Imagine, if you > can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an > imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? > To keep the kidz busy and make them feel more connected in a disconnected world ? ;-) -- ;s =; From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Mar 21 11:02:57 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:02:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/21/12 10:53, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Mark Saad wrote: >> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >> If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG > > What does this group provide that the list does not? Imagine, if you > can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an > imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? Oh Jan. Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. They just don't realize it yet. It even lists the cats' SSNs, birthdays and mothers' maiden names. :) g (who is actually facebook-less) From akosela at andykosela.com Wed Mar 21 11:06:09 2012 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:06:09 +0100 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:02 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > On 03/21/12 10:53, Jan Schaumann wrote: >> >> Mark Saad ?wrote: >>> >>> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >>> ? ?If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >>> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG >> >> >> What does this group provide that the list does not? ?Imagine, if you >> can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an >> imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? > > > Oh Jan. > > Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. ?They just don't realize it > yet. ?It even lists the cats' SSNs, birthdays and mothers' maiden names. > > :) > > g > > (who is actually facebook-less) And speaking about useless "social networks". Do we have a Google+ page? :) --Andy From mark.saad at ymail.com Wed Mar 21 11:07:02 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:07:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Mark Saad wrote: >> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >> ? ?If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG > > What does this group provide that the list does not? ?Imagine, if you > can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an > imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? > > -Jan > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > Jan let me start with , I hate facebook, its another useless gizmo now. In the past it provided a way to remind people when meetings were and some other advertising. Also it allowed you to say to your friendface stalkers that you like BSD in NYC. -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Mar 21 11:08:10 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:08:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321150113.GA94816@DataIX.net> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <20120321150113.GA94816@DataIX.net> Message-ID: <4F69EEDA.7080602@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/21/12 11:01, Jason Hellenthal wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Jan Schaumann wrote: >> Mark Saad wrote: >>> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >>> If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >>> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG >> >> What does this group provide that the list does not? Imagine, if you >> can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an >> imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? >> > > To keep the kidz busy and make them feel more connected in a > disconnected world ? ;-) > Yeah. . . connected and more atomized. Facebook, etc is a way to hit a larger audience. Yes, we have mailing lists and irc (efnet #nycbug), but it's a broader audience, and a bit less asynchronous. And rants and whining are easier on IRC. And your boss is unlikely to ask for your passwd. g From jschauma at netmeister.org Wed Mar 21 11:08:36 2012 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:08:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <20120321150836.GD12330@netmeister.org> George Rosamond wrote: > Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. ...and their practice of creating shadow profiles is actually one of the more creepy ones. -Jan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 478 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark.saad at ymail.com Wed Mar 21 11:09:00 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:09:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321150113.GA94816@DataIX.net> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <20120321150113.GA94816@DataIX.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Jason Hellenthal wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:53:24AM -0400, Jan Schaumann wrote: >> Mark Saad wrote: >> > Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >> > ? ?If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >> > Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG >> >> What does this group provide that the list does not? ?Imagine, if you >> can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an >> imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? >> > > To keep the kidz busy and make them feel more connected in a > disconnected world ? ;-) > > -- > ;s =; > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk Ahh you had a slight Freudian slip, you should have written To keep the kidz busy and make them feel more disconnected in a connected world ! -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Mar 21 11:12:24 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:12:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321150836.GD12330@netmeister.org> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> <20120321150836.GD12330@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <4F69EFD8.5020307@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/21/12 11:08, Jan Schaumann wrote: > George Rosamond wrote: > >> Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. > > ...and their practice of creating shadow profiles is actually one of the > more creepy ones. Does it auto-friend/like people too? Orwell was an optimist in 1984. If he only knew. . . g From mark.saad at ymail.com Wed Mar 21 11:12:53 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:12:53 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Andy Kosela wrote: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:02 PM, George Rosamond > wrote: >> On 03/21/12 10:53, Jan Schaumann wrote: >>> >>> Mark Saad ?wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >>>> ? ?If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >>>> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG >>> >>> >>> What does this group provide that the list does not? ?Imagine, if you >>> can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an >>> imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? >> >> >> Oh Jan. >> >> Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. ?They just don't realize it >> yet. ?It even lists the cats' SSNs, birthdays and mothers' maiden names. >> >> :) >> >> g >> >> (who is actually facebook-less) > > And speaking about useless "social networks". ?Do we have a Google+ page? :) > > --Andy > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk So I joined that thing but I failed to see the reason for it. I don't work at google or own an android super pocket linux computer . -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Mar 21 11:14:18 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:14:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4F69F04A.4010305@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/21/12 11:12, Mark Saad wrote: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Andy Kosela wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:02 PM, George Rosamond >> wrote: >>> On 03/21/12 10:53, Jan Schaumann wrote: >>>> >>>> Mark Saad wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >>>>> If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >>>>> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG >>>> >>>> >>>> What does this group provide that the list does not? Imagine, if you >>>> can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an >>>> imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? >>> >>> >>> Oh Jan. >>> >>> Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. They just don't realize it >>> yet. It even lists the cats' SSNs, birthdays and mothers' maiden names. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> g >>> >>> (who is actually facebook-less) >> >> And speaking about useless "social networks". Do we have a Google+ page? :) >> >> --Andy >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > So I joined that thing but I failed to see the reason for it. I don't > work at google or own an android super pocket linux computer . > I think you did it to cut the distance from Kevin Bacon. g From akosela at andykosela.com Wed Mar 21 11:20:09 2012 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:20:09 +0100 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Mark Saad wrote: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Andy Kosela wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 4:02 PM, George Rosamond >> wrote: >>> On 03/21/12 10:53, Jan Schaumann wrote: >>>> >>>> Mark Saad ?wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello Talk Users of Facebook. >>>>> ? ?If you have not already noticed we migrated our old group to a new >>>>> Facebook group which can be found at http://www.facebook.com/NYCBUG >>>> >>>> >>>> What does this group provide that the list does not? ?Imagine, if you >>>> can, somebody without a facebook account (gasp!) -- what might such an >>>> imaginary and obviously entirely ridicolous person be missing? >>> >>> >>> Oh Jan. >>> >>> Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. ?They just don't realize it >>> yet. ?It even lists the cats' SSNs, birthdays and mothers' maiden names. >>> >>> :) >>> >>> g >>> >>> (who is actually facebook-less) >> >> And speaking about useless "social networks". ?Do we have a Google+ page? :) > > So I joined that thing but I failed to see the reason for it. I don't > work at google or own an android super pocket linux computer . Many hackers are using G+ as a blog -- that is the only reason I joined. I remember I first learned about Dennis Ritchie passing from Rob Pike's G+ page. --Andy From mark.saad at ymail.com Wed Mar 21 11:24:01 2012 From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:24:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <4F69EFD8.5020307@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> <20120321150836.GD12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EFD8.5020307@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM, George Rosamond wrote: > On 03/21/12 11:08, Jan Schaumann wrote: >> >> George Rosamond ?wrote: >> >>> Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. >> >> >> ...and their practice of creating shadow profiles is actually one of the >> more creepy ones. > > > Does it auto-friend/like people too? > > Orwell was an optimist in 1984. ?If he only knew. . . > > > g > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk If i dont have my friendface It will electric yellow my brain banana ! No in all seriousness when facebook was released to the public it was a good way to waste time and catch up with some old friends, find things to do in your area etc. When they started adding applications, and targeted ads and brainwashing the youth of today , it became, something i avoided . The fact is I use it as a way to share photos of my kid with family members and to find out when the next bar night is . -- Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com From scottro at nyc.rr.com Wed Mar 21 11:51:45 2012 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:51:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <20120321155145.GB18346@scott1.scottro.net> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 04:06:09PM +0100, Andy Kosela wrote: > > > > Oh Jan. > > > > Everyone has a Facebook page, even your cats. ?They just don't realize it > > yet. ?It even lists the cats' SSNs, birthdays and mothers' maiden names. > > > > :) > > > > g > > > > (who is actually facebook-less) > > And speaking about useless "social networks". Do we have a Google+ page? :) Ok Andy, that was a literal LOL as opposed to the more common CQTM (chuckled quietly to myself). -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 From pete at nomadlogic.org Wed Mar 21 19:31:08 2012 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:31:08 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <20120321233106.GC56642@arp.nomadlogic.org> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 04:06:09PM +0100, Andy Kosela wrote: > > And speaking about useless "social networks". Do we have a Google+ page? :) > /me was going to throw in gratuitous google wave reference but i just got an email regarding google shutting down google wave. d'oh! i guess the only way you can really reinvent email and "socail communication" is to fail at it... -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org From billtotman at billtotman.com Wed Mar 21 16:42:14 2012 From: billtotman at billtotman.com (Bill Totman) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 16:42:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Facebook Update In-Reply-To: <20120321233106.GC56642@arp.nomadlogic.org> References: <20120321145324.GB12330@netmeister.org> <4F69EDA1.3090907@ceetonetechnology.com> <20120321233106.GC56642@arp.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <7A82F25F-EC72-4918-90F7-DFB3F78166F2@billtotman.com> On Mar 21, 2012, at 19:31, pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) wrote: > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 04:06:09PM +0100, Andy Kosela wrote: >> >> And speaking about useless "social networks". Do we have a Google+ page? :) >> > /me was going to throw in gratuitous google wave reference but i just > got an email regarding google shutting down google wave. d'oh! i guess > the only way you can really reinvent email and "socail communication" is > to fail at it... > > -pete > > -- > Pete Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk How creepy, the next email in my inbox is for the sunsetting of Wave. How did you know about my inbox, Pete? Awesome. -bt From matthewstory at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 11:50:21 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:50:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Three Eminent and Enigmatic: Thomas Bayes, Alan Turing, and George Maciunas Message-ID: http://georgemaciunas.com/?page_id=2902 The George Maciunas Foundation along with the Fluxus Foundation are curating and exhibit on Bayes, Turing and Maciunas at 454 West 19th St. through April 28. Looks interesting. -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 16:59:10 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:59:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Useful Use of Cat Message-ID: Pretty excited just now, as I had a legitimate reason for a useful use of cat ... in the wild ... not everyday that such a thing happens, figured I'd share ... { echo "SET FOREIGN_KEY_CHECKS = 0;" safe cat "$dump" echo "SET FOREIGN_KEY_CHECKS = 1;" } | mysql ... Looking forward to Jan's talk in May ... -- regards, matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akosela at andykosela.com Sun Mar 25 10:46:00 2012 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:46:00 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] The Three Eminent and Enigmatic: Thomas Bayes, Alan Turing, and George Maciunas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Matthew Story wrote: > http://georgemaciunas.com/?page_id=2902 > > The George Maciunas Foundation along with the Fluxus Foundation are curating > and exhibit on Bayes, Turing and Maciunas at?454 West 19th St. through April > 28. ?Looks interesting. True indeed. Not many people realize the relationship between ancient occult philosophies and modern information theory. For the start, I would recommend "The Art of Memory" by Frances A. Yates. I found this fascinating many moons ago. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226950018 --Andy From henry95 at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 14:59:51 2012 From: henry95 at gmail.com (Henry M) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:59:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ Message-ID: I always like reading where certain Unix "formalities" came from. "Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split" http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spork at bway.net Mon Mar 26 15:12:45 2012 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:12:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Henry M wrote: > I always like reading where certain Unix "formalities" came from. > > "Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split" > > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html The history is interesting, but his "get off my lawn" rant about carrying this historical cruft is a prime example of why I generally don't enjoy the way things are done in the linux world. There's a good rebuttal to his point a few messages further on. In short, putting stuff essential for booting on the root fs still has practical uses. On a tangent, can anyone explain "/var/lib" in the linux world? That one has always perplexed me. Charles > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 15:25:16 2012 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:25:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: /var/lib is ok I think. Each daemon that needs to store data defaults to /var/lib/${daemon}. Also your logs will go to /var/log, so in practice /var is all disk besides /boot and / (and home if you are supporting it). In the end anything that really cares about disk performance will likely use /mnt/something. I have seen disks over partitioned 100GB with 10 10GB slices so no room for a 30GB database. I have seen disk under partitioned 300GB / root that takes 30 minutes to fsck. Heir layouts make the best arguments. Edward On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Henry M wrote: > > I always like reading where certain Unix "formalities" came from. > > "Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split" > > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > > > The history is interesting, but his "get off my lawn" rant about carrying > this historical cruft is a prime example of why I generally don't enjoy the > way things are done in the linux world. ?There's a good rebuttal to his > point a few messages further on. ?In short, putting stuff essential for > booting on the root fs still has practical uses. > > On a tangent, can anyone explain "/var/lib" in the linux world? ?That one > has always perplexed me. > > Charles > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From pete at nomadlogic.org Mon Mar 26 22:24:31 2012 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:24:31 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F7124DF.2060905@nomadlogic.org> On 3/26/12 12:12 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > > > On Mar 26, 2012, at 2:59 PM, Henry M wrote: > >> I always like reading where certain Unix "formalities" came from. >> >> "Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split" >> >> http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html > > The history is interesting, but his "get off my lawn" rant about > carrying this historical cruft is a prime example of why I generally > don't enjoy the way things are done in the linux world. There's a > good rebuttal to his point a few messages further on. In short, > putting stuff essential for booting on the root fs still has practical > uses. > > On a tangent, can anyone explain "/var/lib" in the linux world? That > one has always perplexed me. > yea - i've always had "issues" with how gnu systems use /var/lib as well as how external binaries and libs are installed in /usr as opposed to /usr/local. it's actually just not gnu systems either - i know cassandra for example uses /var/lib/cassandra/ is its defualt datastore location. after reading the unix filesystem heirarchy over the years the closest reasoning for the use of /var/lib for DB, www-data and the like is that technically these files are related to the state of running processes...dunno...it's probably just easier to admit defeat after all these years :/ c.f. http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEVARHIERARCHY -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org From pete at nomadlogic.org Mon Mar 26 22:34:34 2012 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:34:34 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F71273A.7000002@nomadlogic.org> On 3/26/12 12:25 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote: > /var/lib is ok I think. Each daemon that needs to store data defaults > to /var/lib/${daemon}. Also your logs will go to /var/log, so in > practice /var is all disk besides /boot and / (and home if you are > supporting it). In the end anything that really cares about disk > performance will likely use /mnt/something. yea i'm not too sure i really buy that argument though... back in the day it wouldn't be uncommon to find systems with shared, read-only, mounted / /boot /etc volumes. /var/log may be going to a special device with special mount options. dropping DB files for example under /var/lib/my_db/ on the same volume/partition as var log could quickly lead to disk i/o contention issues in some use cases. also /mnt is meant to only be used for temporary mounts, not long term filesystems(1) - so establishing that is a best practice should be frowned upon as well IMHO. i've worked in environments where we have predictable mount points for application specific volumes that are mounted off of root - then sym-linked back into the expected data directory for a given application. for example /u00 would be for primary pg_data volumes, /u01 would be for pg_xlog's and /u02 for pg_tablespaces on a PostgreSQL system. Each of the mountpoints would then symlink back to their expected location under $PGDATA. (while it may be technically best to use /srv for these datatypes - i've found that this method has served us well on our DB clusters). (1) http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#MNTMOUNTPOINTFORATEMPORARILYMOUNT -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewstory at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 09:31:34 2012 From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:31:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Updating the tuning man page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forwarding this along, as there may be many FBSD users on this list who can help improve the system tuning wiki page here. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eitan Adler Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:55 PM Subject: Updating the tuning man page To: freebsd-current Current , freebsd-performance at freebsd.org As some of you may know there is/was an effort to rewrite the tuning man page at http://wiki.freebsd.org/SystemTuning . At the moment it seems to have a lot of content with questions and unconfirmed data. Any effort spent on improving the page would go a long way to improving the documentation. If we could get this wiki page (editable by anyone) into a decent shape I'd be happy to turn it into a mdoc patch and commit it. Feel free to just remove old information and replace it with modern content. There is no need to mark up your specific changes - I'll deal with that when I write up the patch. Feel free to email me with any questions. -- Eitan Adler _______________________________________________ freebsd-current at freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe at freebsd.org" -- regards, matt From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 10:23:36 2012 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:23:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: <4F71273A.7000002@nomadlogic.org> References: <4F71273A.7000002@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: That is interesting. I typically do not mount volumes (especially nfs) off / because programs like slocate need to be configured to skip them. (I know FTW slocate but I use it) Since slocate dodges /mnt and a couple other places I use those. I did not know the /mnt temporary deal. It seems that like /usr/bin and /bin I have gotten a standard from the wrong way I always see things. I see what you are saying about /var/log and /var/lib/db. Your points are well taken with two caveats. Linear log writes in /var/log appending usually does not competes with a database. If there is contention you are likely logging to much anyway. I do agree that you always want to isolate the IO across devices considering cost and power, however in reference to the /var/lib conversation packages need a sensible default to persist stuff on a single disk system. In that regard I think /var/lib//${something} is an acceptable choice so is /usr/local/${something}. On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > On 3/26/12 12:25 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote: > > /var/lib is ok I think. Each daemon that needs to store data defaults > to /var/lib/${daemon}. Also your logs will go to /var/log, so in > practice /var is all disk besides /boot and / (and home if you are > supporting it). In the end anything that really cares about disk > performance will likely use /mnt/something. > > yea i'm not too sure i really buy that argument though... > > back in the day it wouldn't be uncommon to find systems with shared, > read-only, mounted / /boot /etc volumes.? /var/log may be going to a special > device with special mount options.? dropping DB files for example under > /var/lib/my_db/ on the same volume/partition as var log could quickly lead > to disk i/o contention issues in some use cases. > > also /mnt is meant to only be used for temporary mounts, not long term > filesystems(1) - so establishing that is a best practice should be frowned > upon as well IMHO.? i've worked in environments where we have predictable > mount points for application specific volumes that are mounted off of root - > then sym-linked back into the expected data directory for a given > application.? for example /u00 would be for primary pg_data volumes, /u01 > would be for pg_xlog's and /u02 for pg_tablespaces on a PostgreSQL system. > Each of the mountpoints would then symlink back to their expected location > under $PGDATA.? (while it may be technically best to use /srv for these > datatypes - i've found that this method has served us well on our DB > clusters). > > > (1) > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#MNTMOUNTPOINTFORATEMPORARILYMOUNT > > > -pete > > -- > Pete Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > www.nomadlogic.org > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Mar 27 10:51:47 2012 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 07:51:47 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: <4F71273A.7000002@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <4F71D403.2070801@nomadlogic.org> On 3/27/12 7:23 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote: > That is interesting. > I typically do not mount volumes (especially nfs) off / because > programs like slocate need to be configured to skip them. (I know FTW > slocate but I use it) Since slocate dodges /mnt and a couple other > places I use those. good point - although i generally either disable locate, or restrict it to several well defined locations. but there is def. merit working with-in a systems default configuration. regarding NFS - if i'm using autofs which is usually the case - i'll have a specific directory tree off of / (say /nfs) then mount my external volumes off of there. in these cases if i am investigating a nfs related issue i know i can usually safely avoid hung mounts by not looking inside /nfs. it also makes it pretty clear what amd or autofs is managing - as i may have /{cifs,dfs,smb} volume, /afs on the same box :) > > I did not know the /mnt temporary deal. It seems that like /usr/bin > and /bin I have gotten a standard from the wrong way I always see > things. > > I see what you are saying about /var/log and /var/lib/db. Your points > are well taken with two caveats. Linear log writes in /var/log > appending usually does not competes with a database. If there is > contention you are likely logging to much anyway. well my thoughts regarding /var/log/ was that you may want to mount with the sync option for example, which may be detrimental to performance of a database. regarding how i view /bin /usr/bin/ and /usr/local/bin these days is that /bin should be statically linked (or at the very least linked against /lib), /usr/bin/ is for software provided by base OS (*bsd userland, linux distro packages for example) and /usr/local/bin is for software i build and distribute in my own environment. fortunately i've seen more and more external packages working towards this direction too. > > I do agree that you always want to isolate the IO across devices > considering cost and power, however in reference to the /var/lib > conversation packages need a sensible default to persist stuff on a > single disk system. In that regard I think /var/lib//${something} is > an acceptable choice so is /usr/local/${something}. oh yea i agree - and i think that was one of the initial design choices of /var/ - (cf. /var/spool/) - i guess i'm just grumpy from having to repackage, and reconfigure, software that wants to put www-root in /var/lib for example :) i should also say - one of the best things about unix systems is that the power is really put in the users hand, right? so if for you /var/lib/$my_software is a logical location for a specific dataset - go for it! :) having said that - one of the good things about guidelines is that if people tend to follow those conventions, it makes life easier for admins working on new systems or when they have to port new software to existing systems. i guess that was my original point i was trying to illustrate :) -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org From spork at bway.net Tue Mar 27 11:08:08 2012 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:08:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: <4F71D403.2070801@nomadlogic.org> References: <4F71273A.7000002@nomadlogic.org> <4F71D403.2070801@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > On 3/27/12 7:23 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote: >> That is interesting. >> I typically do not mount volumes (especially nfs) off / because >> programs like slocate need to be configured to skip them. (I know FTW >> slocate but I use it) Since slocate dodges /mnt and a couple other >> places I use those. > good point - although i generally either disable locate, or restrict it to several well defined locations. but there is def. merit working with-in a systems default configuration. Just for reference, that's /etc/locate.rc, and the stock file has the following: # directories unwanted in output #PRUNEPATHS="/tmp /usr/tmp /var/tmp /var/db/portsnap" > regarding NFS - if i'm using autofs which is usually the case - i'll have a specific directory tree off of / (say /nfs) then mount my external volumes off of there. in these cases if i am investigating a nfs related issue i know i can usually safely avoid hung mounts by not looking inside /nfs. it also makes it pretty clear what amd or autofs is managing - as i may have /{cifs,dfs,smb} volume, /afs on the same box :) Semi-hijack? I recently decided that I trust nfs enough to mount a few things at boot, and at the same time I started thinking about whether I should mount all the nfs stuff under one directory and then symlink in. Oddly enough, I decided on /nfs. Any comments on the wisdom of that are welcome. I have the following mount options: rw,bg,failok,soft,intr "bg" can cause some funniness it seems, but this config results in a maximum boot delay of 2 minutes if the nfs server is unreachable (tried in vmware with the host totally down as well as up, but without nfs/portmap/mountd stopped). >> I did not know the /mnt temporary deal. It seems that like /usr/bin >> and /bin I have gotten a standard from the wrong way I always see >> things. >> >> I see what you are saying about /var/log and /var/lib/db. Your points >> are well taken with two caveats. Linear log writes in /var/log >> appending usually does not competes with a database. If there is >> contention you are likely logging to much anyway. > > well my thoughts regarding /var/log/ was that you may want to mount with the sync option for example, which may be detrimental to performance of a database. I'm quite partial to "/var/db/pgsql|mysql". It makes sense (to me) and everywhere I work this seems to lead to no confusion amongst the folks working on these hosts. The "/var/lib" thing really stumps me. I can think of no sound logic to explain why databases would live under a directory called "lib" - traditionally a directory named "lib" would contain? libraries. Crazy stuff. > > regarding how i view /bin /usr/bin/ and /usr/local/bin these days is that /bin should be statically linked (or at the very least linked against /lib), /usr/bin/ is for software provided by base OS (*bsd userland, linux distro packages for example) and /usr/local/bin is for software i build and distribute in my own environment. fortunately i've seen more and more external packages working towards this direction too. Thank goodness. The /usr/local separation makes it easy for someone unfamiliar with a box to find what's been added beyond the base OS (if your OS has a "base"). >> >> I do agree that you always want to isolate the IO across devices >> considering cost and power, however in reference to the /var/lib >> conversation packages need a sensible default to persist stuff on a >> single disk system. In that regard I think /var/lib//${something} is >> an acceptable choice so is /usr/local/${something}. > > oh yea i agree - and i think that was one of the initial design choices of /var/ - (cf. /var/spool/) - i guess i'm just grumpy from having to repackage, and reconfigure, software that wants to put www-root in /var/lib for example :) Can't start talking about software developed only for one specific free unix-like OS. It hurts. Charles > i should also say - one of the best things about unix systems is that the power is really put in the users hand, right? so if for you /var/lib/$my_software is a logical location for a specific dataset - go for it! :) > > having said that - one of the good things about guidelines is that if people tend to follow those conventions, it makes life easier for admins working on new systems or when they have to port new software to existing systems. i guess that was my original point i was trying to illustrate :) > > -pete > > -- > Pete Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > www.nomadlogic.org > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Charles Sprickman NetEng/SysAdmin Bway.net - New York's Best Internet www.bway.net spork at bway.net - 212.982.9800 From crossd at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 13:50:17 2012 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:50:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Henry M wrote: > I always like reading where certain Unix "formalities" came from. > > "Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split" > > http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html Interesting, yes, but unfortunately also wrong. He's got it sort of right that things were moved between different directories in order to work around size limitations of old disks, but he got most of it wrong: /sbin was't in early Unix, Berkeley didn't invent shared libraries, his description of what people decided should be on / and /usr is ridiculous (cf, "... / was for the stuff you got from AT&T and /usr was for the stuff that your distro like IBM AIX or Dec Ultrix or SGI Irix added to it ...": that's just made up). He does have a point that most of the divide between different directories is largely historical and often-unquestioned mostly because the differences have become dogmatically entrenched as canon, but his reasoning is way off. For instance, that /lib and /usr/bin is bad because shared libraries have to be updated in concert with the utilities in /usr/bin seems like a false dichotomy; the names of the directories (or even, really, what filesystems they are on) doesn't change the maintenance burden, such as it is. For an example of a system that largely did away with the "standard" hierarchy, check out Plan 9 (http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/); incidentally, Plan 9 was created by the members of the Unix team at Bell Labs. - Dan C. From chsnyder at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 17:52:58 2012 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:52:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > For an example of a system that largely did away with the "standard" > hierarchy, check out Plan 9 (http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/); Or for a more amusing example, OS X. /Applications /Library /System /Users /private <--- unix-esque hierarchy hidden here :-) From george at ceetonetechnology.com Tue Mar 27 18:30:28 2012 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:30:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cool read about history of /bin /usr/bin/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F723F84.7080202@ceetonetechnology.com> On 03/27/12 17:52, Chris Snyder wrote: > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > >> For an example of a system that largely did away with the "standard" >> hierarchy, check out Plan 9 (http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/); > > Or for a more amusing example, OS X. > > /Applications > /Library > /System > /Users > /private<--- unix-esque hierarchy hidden here :-) That's make sense for a desktop operating system in which the 'internals' are obscured from the users. And I also think for default installs, I don't see how Ed's point matters. Sure, there's lots of things you do in partitioning to tweak disk i/o and so on for specific purposes, but I don't see how proliferating lib dirs, etc., all of the sudden become principle for a default build. I am reasonably confident I know where port/pkg libs reside on a *BSD box, where third party startup scripts are, and so on. And a consistency, even if it's based on ancient history, is worth more than anything when trying to figure something out, providing frameworks for people porting new software, etc. A web server might have /www, and so on. But that doesn't mean /www should be in the default partitioning, whether or not your OS secretly installs a www server on your box or not by default. g