[talk] ssh.com blog post

Tue May 6 23:51:45 EDT 2014

On 5/6/14, 11:30 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, May 6, 2014, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com
> <mailto:mark.saad at ymail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Ed
>>   I I have learned one thing , this new java tech is soo cool .  Look
> they even made a ssh server in it .
>>
>> http://mina.apache.org/sshd-project/
>>
>> Ohh and I hear "our" new web server scales to 4 concurrent users .  I
> am not sure what 1999 will bring us maybe Microsoft will make a windows 99 .
>> ---
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 6, 2014, at 9:48 PM, George Rosamond
> <george at ceetonetechnology.com <mailto:george at ceetonetechnology.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Edward Capriolo:
>>>> What a terrible example. Jordan was like an 80 /85 % free throw shooter.
>>>> Since he shot 10 a game he missed them all the time.
>>>
>>> Wow... ed posted and didn't mention Java.
>>>
>>> I find that the people who know nothing about sports most often use
>>> Jordan in metaphors.  And we all expect programmers to make mistakes...
>>> may be he knows less about development than basketball.
>>>
>>> And I love the infect OpenSSH/OpenBSD by naming next to OpenSSL.
>>>
>>> g
>>>
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>>
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>>
> 
> Mark,
> 
> No one knows what your talking about. I can only hazard a guess that
> your somehow trying to troll me over java, how your company is switching
> to it, and how you don't like it.
> 

Ed I was making a joke how some people think java is crappy and old and
slow and so 1990's tech.  It was a bad joke. But I am not normally known
for good ones.

As for a sshd in java it could have some features worth exploring , I
was just adding to Georges comment that you were not touting java :_(.

> Well guess fin what, you fed me, I am in. I now have a 8 year track
> record of designing scalable systems in Java.
> 
> When I'm not writing blog posts about distributed massive scale NoSQL
> databases written that get picked up my highscalability.com
> <http://highscalability.com>
> (http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/5/30/strategy-get-servers-for-free-and-make-users-happy-by-turnin.html),
> or making side money training on massive scalable map reduce
> architectures
> (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/hands-on-apache-hive-workshop-with-ed-capriolo-austin-tickets-7334274011),
> or speaking all over the country at tech conferences
> (http://chariotsolutions.com/dataio2013/#edward_capriolo) where people
> pay for my flight and hotel, I do really enjoy coming on this list and
> debating with you over how Java can not possibly perform well or be
> scalable.
> 
> What do you even care anyway? You are in ops, someone hands you some
> code and you package it and install it. Does it make a differences if it
> is java/erlang/c/perl/ whatever? In ever much liked php, as an ops
> person I knew I had 0 input into what language developers chose to do
> something in.
> 
> If you are mad/upset/angry/sad/depressed/suidicidal that YOUR company is
> using java.....Get a new fricken job! I am sure you can find a place
> that is running master-slave mysql, and a big isilon nfs server, on
> freebsd and be happy again. Flip the scipt. Become a CTO then you can
> make the decisions and make all the people under you miserable over your
> choices.
> 
> Why are you hating on Mina? This entire thread was about open ssh.com
> <http://ssh.com> making an unfair pot shot over one flaw in ssl, and how
> this is so unconscionable. Then you go and randomly take a pot shot at
> http://mina.apache.org/sshd-project/. Why target mina? Have you tried
> it? Do you know that it has poor performance.
> 
> Read this:
> https://days2011.scala-lang.org/sites/days2011/files/ws3-1-Hundt.pdf
> 
> We implemented a well specified compact algorithm in four
> languages, C++, Java, Go, and Scala, and evaluated the results
> along several dimensions, finding factors of differences in
> all areas. We discussed many subsequent language specific
> optimizations that point to typical performance pain points in
> the respective languages.
> *We find that in regards to performance, C++ wins out by*
> *a large margin. However, it also required the most extensive*
> *tuning efforts, many of which were done at a level of sophisti-*
> *cation that would not be available to the average programmer.*
> Scala concise notation and powerful language features al-
> lowed for the best optimization of code complexity.
> *The Java version was probably the simplest to implement,*
> but the hardest to analyze for performance. Specifically the
> effects around garbage collection were complicated and very
> hard to tune. Since Scala runs on the JVM, it has the same
> issues.
> Go offers interesting language features, which also allow
> for a concise and standardized notation. The compilers for this
> language are still immature, which reflects in both performance
> and binary sizes.
> 
> In other words, if your are claimg your programmers are not
> sophisticated enough to write a Java that performs well they have little
> chance of writing c++ that performs well according to google.
> 
> Any believe it or not there are many, many times when java
> performance.....get ready for your mind to explode .... beats c++!
> 
> http://blog.dhananjaynene.com/2008/07/performance-comparison-c-java-python-ruby-jython-jruby-groovy/
> 
> http://scribblethink.org/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html
> 
> The authors test some real numerical codes (FFT, Matrix factorization,
> SOR, fluid solver, N-body) on several architectures and compilers. On
> Intel they found that the Java performance was very reasonable compared
> to C (e.g, 20% slower), and that Java was faster than at least one C
> compiler (KAI compiler on Linux).
> 
> The authors conclude, "On Intel Pentium hardware, especially with Linux,
> *the performance gap is small enough to be of little or no concern* to
> programmers."
> 
> But please keep going on about all your anecdotal facts about how slow
> you think Java is even in the face of the overwhelming evidence that
> says you are wrong.
> 
> 
> 

Way to much reading up there, I am falling asleep trying to read it. How
is it you had that all ready to send out so fast ? In any case to sum up
my frustration with java , its not the language nor the speed nor any
technical issue with it. I was just unfortunate enough to be exposed to
one to many bad setups using java; where the bravado of the programmers
far exceeded their skill and money became the solution.
I have a similar issue with all things .net and c++ .

-- 
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com