From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Sun Nov  2 20:34:34 2014
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:34:34 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
Message-ID: <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>

Hi All,

To hack on a 11 month old thread,

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:08:41 -0500
Brian Callahan <bcallah at devio.us> wrote:

> >>> On December 10, 2013 09:12:40 PM EST, James E Keenan
> >>> <jkeen at verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Article here:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/12/09/freebsd_abandoning_hardware_randomness/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> This made the rounds in ARS yesterday too,
> >>> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/12/we-cannot-trust-intel-and-vias-chip-based-crypto-freebsd-developers-say/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> While it's all on our mind, here's an excellent old article
> >>> detailing random facilities, focused on practical use of OpenBSD
> >>> and FreeBSD,
> >>> https://calomel.org/entropy_random_number_generators.html
> >>
> >> It was pointed out to me on that the calomel articles are not known
> >> for their correctness, which piques my curiosity:
> >>
> >> Can anyone point at solid practical documentation for using,
> >> sourcing, and validating various random subsystems on *BSD/UNIX
> >> systems?
> >
> > bcallah pointed out this gem:
> >
> > " * Computers are very predictable devices..."
> 
> Humans are also very predictable devices... maybe we can create a RNG 
> for our brains? :) We'd probably make a killing from venture
> capitalists...


TrueRNG ? Hardware Random Number Generator USB
http://ubld.it/products/truerng-hardware-random-number-generator/

I'm excited to see this, what do people think?  $47 feels a bit high
though...

Rocket-
.ike



From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Sun Nov  2 21:13:25 2014
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 21:13:25 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
 <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>

On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:34:34 -0500

> TrueRNG ? Hardware Random Number Generator USB
> http://ubld.it/products/truerng-hardware-random-number-generator/
> 
> I'm excited to see this, what do people think?  $47 feels a bit high
> though...
> 
> Rocket-
> .ike

And, as I continued looking for info online, came across another:

"OneRNG" - totally open spec,
http://moonbaseotago.com/onerng/

Best,
.ike



From bcallah at devio.us  Sun Nov  2 23:12:00 2014
From: bcallah at devio.us (Brian Callahan)
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2014 23:12:00 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
 <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <54570090.4030005@devio.us>


On 11/02/14 21:13, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:34:34 -0500
>
>> TrueRNG ? Hardware Random Number Generator USB
>> http://ubld.it/products/truerng-hardware-random-number-generator/
>>
>> I'm excited to see this, what do people think?  $47 feels a bit high
>> though...
>>
>> Rocket-
>> .ike
> And, as I continued looking for info online, came across another:
>
> "OneRNG" - totally open spec,
> http://moonbaseotago.com/onerng/
>

Hmm... a couple things come to mind:
First, TrueRNG seems to be a black box. So that's pretty much a non-starter.

Looks like OneRNG is only for Linux (atm); it requires udev to talk to 
the kernel... someone would need to write the necessary software.

But I'm not sure the problem these devices are trying to solve are 
problems for the BSDs, at least OpenBSD.

~Brian


From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Sun Nov  2 23:37:13 2014
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 23:37:13 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <54570090.4030005@devio.us>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
 <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <54570090.4030005@devio.us>
Message-ID: <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>

On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 23:12:00 -0500
Brian Callahan <bcallah at devio.us> wrote:

> 
> On 11/02/14 21:13, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:34:34 -0500
> >
> >> TrueRNG ? Hardware Random Number Generator USB
> >> http://ubld.it/products/truerng-hardware-random-number-generator/
> >>
> >> I'm excited to see this, what do people think?  $47 feels a bit
> >> high though...
> >>
> >> Rocket-
> >> .ike
> > And, as I continued looking for info online, came across another:
> >
> > "OneRNG" - totally open spec,
> > http://moonbaseotago.com/onerng/
> >
> 
> Hmm... a couple things come to mind:
> First, TrueRNG seems to be a black box. So that's pretty much a
> non-starter.

Hrm.  I think I agree with you there- since the point is to do better
with this problem than software, (a lot better), it could be argued to
be a particularly un-kosher place for blackbox hardware.

> 
> Looks like OneRNG is only for Linux (atm); it requires udev to talk
> to the kernel... someone would need to write the necessary software.

Interesting...

> 
> But I'm not sure the problem these devices are trying to solve are 
> problems for the BSDs, at least OpenBSD.

;) I can see where that line of reasoning goes.

Yet, I'd say we can *always* use better HW entropy sources,
(particularly ones which are cheap and replacable if they are
compromised- like these USB sticks).

Where can my headless, microphone-less head-less servers get their
entropy?  What if I even disabled entropy seeding/harvesting in the NIC
because it doesn't really do any good with my app/use?

If you know a good way out of these issues without hardware interfaces
to the "real and random" world, I'm all ears!

> 
> ~Brian

Rocket-
.ike



From bcully at gmail.com  Mon Nov  3 00:40:43 2014
From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 00:40:43 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
 <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <54570090.4030005@devio.us>
 <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <560A95D1-9C60-461D-B86F-4D57506CC38F@gmail.com>


> On Nov 2, 2014, at 23:37, Isaac (.ike) Levy <ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote:
> If you know a good way out of these issues without hardware interfaces
> to the "real and random" world, I'm all ears!

	Well, some (~20) years ago, I ran across a website run by a guy at CERN (IIRC) who had what amounted to a geiger counter in a well that was quite far down that had cesium decaying in it. He said to go ahead and use it, but please, not too much because it took too long to generate new bits.

	I was looking for that to give you an answer, and ran across this: https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ <https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/>. Yes, it requires hardware, but the way I see it, you don?t need much of it. With a good PRNG, all you should need is a good seed to get good RNG (that?s the logic behind the urandom/random split, anyway). Assuming you don?t have to reboot too much, and you don?t empty the pool to quickly, you shouldn?t need many truly random seeds.

	Unfortunately, I don?t think we?re going to see many truly effective generators short of hardware in the future. The traditional sources of ?random? have become so heavily commoditized (for good reason) that it?s not too hard to break them.

-bjc
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From bcallah at devio.us  Mon Nov  3 00:58:48 2014
From: bcallah at devio.us (Brian Callahan)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 00:58:48 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>	<52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>	<1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>	<1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>	<54570090.4030005@devio.us>
 <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>
Message-ID: <54571998.8010003@devio.us>


On 11/02/14 23:37, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 23:12:00 -0500
> Brian Callahan <bcallah at devio.us> wrote:
>
>> On 11/02/14 21:13, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:34:34 -0500
>>>
>>>> TrueRNG ? Hardware Random Number Generator USB
>>>> http://ubld.it/products/truerng-hardware-random-number-generator/
>>>>
>>>> I'm excited to see this, what do people think?  $47 feels a bit
>>>> high though...
>>>>
>>>> Rocket-
>>>> .ike
>>> And, as I continued looking for info online, came across another:
>>>
>>> "OneRNG" - totally open spec,
>>> http://moonbaseotago.com/onerng/
>>>
>> Hmm... a couple things come to mind:
>> First, TrueRNG seems to be a black box. So that's pretty much a
>> non-starter.
> Hrm.  I think I agree with you there- since the point is to do better
> with this problem than software, (a lot better), it could be argued to
> be a particularly un-kosher place for blackbox hardware.
>
>> Looks like OneRNG is only for Linux (atm); it requires udev to talk
>> to the kernel... someone would need to write the necessary software.
> Interesting...
>
>> But I'm not sure the problem these devices are trying to solve are
>> problems for the BSDs, at least OpenBSD.
> ;) I can see where that line of reasoning goes.
>
> Yet, I'd say we can *always* use better HW entropy sources,
> (particularly ones which are cheap and replacable if they are
> compromised- like these USB sticks).
>
> Where can my headless, microphone-less head-less servers get their
> entropy?  What if I even disabled entropy seeding/harvesting in the NIC
> because it doesn't really do any good with my app/use?
>
> If you know a good way out of these issues without hardware interfaces
> to the "real and random" world, I'm all ears!
>

Yes ok, but I know you're also not the type of person who will plug it 
in and believe that you're all good. And I think that really matters. If 
you really had a machine that had no way to gather entropy (I'm slightly 
sceptical that such a machine really exists, but let's say it does) then 
sure, one of these things would be a cheap, throw away if compromised, 
way to accomplish what you need. But again, I don't think you'd be the 
type to just plug it in and assume all is well.

I always imagine these things being used on $random_laptop by 
$random_user and marketed for that purpose. And in that case there is 
concern over the "plug it in and I'm good" mentality. People not knowing 
how to recognize a compromised stick (or worse, not knowing that they 
can be compromised).

I still think for your everyday laptop not having one of these keys is 
the way to go (perhaps though one should use an OS that does the random 
thing well ;-) ).

Anyhow, these things aren't a solution to anything without proper software.


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Mon Nov  3 11:35:44 2014
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2014 11:35:44 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <54571998.8010003@devio.us>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
 <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <54570090.4030005@devio.us>
 <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <54571998.8010003@devio.us>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBOY-4jmv20NTurpa64WHAzGvi=c0ArDZQoFud94AtmjYA@mail.gmail.com>

It would be fun to make some amateur scatterplots.

I guess it buffers the output a bit somewhere since it has to "go back to
the source" after too much is read. If that's the case, I wonder if you can
go in and read ahead in the buffer while leaving it unconsumed? If this is
an attack vector then maybe wasting some randomness is a good thing. I'm
just thinking out loud. But the plots would be fun and something I can
comprehend.

Also fun would be to direct RF at it and then repeat the plots.

On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:58 AM, Brian Callahan <bcallah at devio.us> wrote:

>
> On 11/02/14 23:37, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Nov 2014 23:12:00 -0500
>> Brian Callahan <bcallah at devio.us> wrote:
>>
>>  On 11/02/14 21:13, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 20:34:34 -0500
>>>>
>>>>  TrueRNG ? Hardware Random Number Generator USB
>>>>> http://ubld.it/products/truerng-hardware-random-number-generator/
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm excited to see this, what do people think?  $47 feels a bit
>>>>> high though...
>>>>>
>>>>> Rocket-
>>>>> .ike
>>>>>
>>>> And, as I continued looking for info online, came across another:
>>>>
>>>> "OneRNG" - totally open spec,
>>>> http://moonbaseotago.com/onerng/
>>>>
>>>>  Hmm... a couple things come to mind:
>>> First, TrueRNG seems to be a black box. So that's pretty much a
>>> non-starter.
>>>
>> Hrm.  I think I agree with you there- since the point is to do better
>> with this problem than software, (a lot better), it could be argued to
>> be a particularly un-kosher place for blackbox hardware.
>>
>>  Looks like OneRNG is only for Linux (atm); it requires udev to talk
>>> to the kernel... someone would need to write the necessary software.
>>>
>> Interesting...
>>
>>  But I'm not sure the problem these devices are trying to solve are
>>> problems for the BSDs, at least OpenBSD.
>>>
>> ;) I can see where that line of reasoning goes.
>>
>> Yet, I'd say we can *always* use better HW entropy sources,
>> (particularly ones which are cheap and replacable if they are
>> compromised- like these USB sticks).
>>
>> Where can my headless, microphone-less head-less servers get their
>> entropy?  What if I even disabled entropy seeding/harvesting in the NIC
>> because it doesn't really do any good with my app/use?
>>
>> If you know a good way out of these issues without hardware interfaces
>> to the "real and random" world, I'm all ears!
>>
>>
> Yes ok, but I know you're also not the type of person who will plug it in
> and believe that you're all good. And I think that really matters. If you
> really had a machine that had no way to gather entropy (I'm slightly
> sceptical that such a machine really exists, but let's say it does) then
> sure, one of these things would be a cheap, throw away if compromised, way
> to accomplish what you need. But again, I don't think you'd be the type to
> just plug it in and assume all is well.
>
> I always imagine these things being used on $random_laptop by $random_user
> and marketed for that purpose. And in that case there is concern over the
> "plug it in and I'm good" mentality. People not knowing how to recognize a
> compromised stick (or worse, not knowing that they can be compromised).
>
> I still think for your everyday laptop not having one of these keys is the
> way to go (perhaps though one should use an OS that does the random thing
> well ;-) ).
>
> Anyhow, these things aren't a solution to anything without proper software.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
-jesse
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Nov  3 12:01:29 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2014 12:01:29 -0500
Subject: [talk] [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD abandoning hardware randomness
In-Reply-To: <CAJU5ZBOY-4jmv20NTurpa64WHAzGvi=c0ArDZQoFud94AtmjYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201312111706.rBBH6Hui024228@rs103.luxsci.com>
 <52A89C19.5070006@devio.us>
 <1414978501-5228265.81922411.fsA31YaUX013202@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <1414980842-2829012.54455413.fsA32DQGT011298@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <54570090.4030005@devio.us>
 <1414989481-4133376.74192468.fsA34bEuM022489@rs149.luxsci.com>
 <54571998.8010003@devio.us>
 <CAJU5ZBOY-4jmv20NTurpa64WHAzGvi=c0ArDZQoFud94AtmjYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5457B4E9.70007@ceetonetechnology.com>

<large fat snip>

>>
>> I still think for your everyday laptop not having one of these keys is the
>> way to go (perhaps though one should use an OS that does the random thing
>> well ;-) ).
>>
>> Anyhow, these things aren't a solution to anything without proper software.

Some relevant FreeBSD changes (ty Justin)...

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=273872

IMHO, it really is (for BSD land, anyways) about trusting software to do
what's right with that hardware.

We've had the threads before onlist and informally about usb/hardware
entropy devices.

I don't doubt hardware can have a role, if it's done correctly and openly.

(anyone read "The Traveler" by John Twelve Hawks?)

But ultimately in this day and age, it's the software, ie, a more
trusted, audit-able platform, that should be determining the parameters
of that extra entropy being utilized.  An OS can be audited, mtree'd,
whatever, while auditing the code and confirming what's on the actual
device is a bit trickier.  Go read some of the Snowden disclosures about
3-letter-government agency hardware hacking.  It's ugly.

g


From mark.saad at ymail.com  Thu Nov  6 00:10:38 2014
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 00:10:38 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ike try bsdrp in place of pfsense
Message-ID: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>


Ike
  Like I said in your talk try bsdrp . It's 10-stable before 10.1 . You can roll your own bits as needed . 


http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.52/
---
Mark saad | mark.saad at ymail.com 


From mark.saad at ymail.com  Thu Nov  6 00:28:43 2014
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2014 00:28:43 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ike try bsdrp in place of pfsense
In-Reply-To: <B44EA6AD-1628-414B-B1BE-9B97F119F9BD@neville-neil.com>
References: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>
 <B44EA6AD-1628-414B-B1BE-9B97F119F9BD@neville-neil.com>
Message-ID: <D187C3DF-9DA6-40FC-BDD4-3330D6DB0026@ymail.com>



> On Nov 6, 2014, at 12:15 AM, George Neville-Neil <gnn at neville-neil.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 5 Nov 2014, at 21:10, Mark Saad wrote:
>> 
>> Ike
>> Like I said in your talk try bsdrp . It's 10-stable before 10.1 . You can roll your own bits as needed .
>> 
>> 
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.52/
> 
> BTW The next pfSense is based on FreeBSD 10.
> 

Gnn are you using the newer pfsense ? If so on what hardware ? What has your experience been like ?



> Best,
> George

Mark saad | mark.saad at ymail.com 


From gnn at neville-neil.com  Thu Nov  6 00:15:24 2014
From: gnn at neville-neil.com (George Neville-Neil)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 21:15:24 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ike try bsdrp in place of pfsense
In-Reply-To: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>
References: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <B44EA6AD-1628-414B-B1BE-9B97F119F9BD@neville-neil.com>

On 5 Nov 2014, at 21:10, Mark Saad wrote:

> Ike
> Like I said in your talk try bsdrp . It's 10-stable before 10.1 . You 
> can roll your own bits as needed .
>
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.52/

BTW The next pfSense is based on FreeBSD 10.

Best,
George


From gnn at neville-neil.com  Thu Nov  6 00:34:00 2014
From: gnn at neville-neil.com (George Neville-Neil)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 21:34:00 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ike try bsdrp in place of pfsense
In-Reply-To: <D187C3DF-9DA6-40FC-BDD4-3330D6DB0026@ymail.com>
References: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>
 <B44EA6AD-1628-414B-B1BE-9B97F119F9BD@neville-neil.com>
 <D187C3DF-9DA6-40FC-BDD4-3330D6DB0026@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <BEEBB218-3127-41F3-9474-4D23C9D37218@neville-neil.com>

On 5 Nov 2014, at 21:28, Mark Saad wrote:

>> On Nov 6, 2014, at 12:15 AM, George Neville-Neil 
>> <gnn at neville-neil.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5 Nov 2014, at 21:10, Mark Saad wrote:
>>>
>>> Ike
>>> Like I said in your talk try bsdrp . It's 10-stable before 10.1 . 
>>> You can roll your own bits as needed .
>>>
>>>
>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.52/
>>
>> BTW The next pfSense is based on FreeBSD 10.
>>
>
> Gnn are you using the newer pfsense ? If so on what hardware ? What 
> has your experience been like ?
>

Stating up front: I am hacking on pfSense (actually FreeBSD with PF) for 
the NetGate folks.

I have not deployed it in a production environment but the performance 
of 10 over 8
(which is pfSense 2.2 vs. 2.1.5) in the lab shows a marked improvement.

If you want to see the raw numbers from my work with packet filters on 
FreeBSD
you can track the gvnn3/netperf project on github.  The work is all 
sponsored
by Rubicon Communications which is the company that's doing all that 
work.

I'll be putting more tests and results up in that project.

Best,
George


From steve.b at osfda.org  Sat Nov  8 22:58:50 2014
From: steve.b at osfda.org (Steve)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 22:58:50 -0500
Subject: [talk] LibreSSL
In-Reply-To: <545E724E.90709@osfda.org>
References: <545E724E.90709@osfda.org>
Message-ID: <545EE67A.5080003@osfda.org>

Suggestion: a discussion of LibreSSL, and how it differs from OpenSSL, 
at an upcoming meet might be in order...



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Nov  9 12:50:28 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 12:50:28 -0500
Subject: [talk] LibreSSL
In-Reply-To: <545EE67A.5080003@osfda.org>
References: <545E724E.90709@osfda.org> <545EE67A.5080003@osfda.org>
Message-ID: <545FA964.1080903@ceetonetechnology.com>

Steve:
> Suggestion: a discussion of LibreSSL, and how it differs from OpenSSL,
> at an upcoming meet might be in order...
> 

Oh, yes.  Very much.

What we're looking for is someone local on it... and I don't believe
there's anyone.

We've been tossing around the idea of a remote over video/skype type
presentation.

Maybe Patrick M could chime in on the feasibility.

g


From matthewstory at gmail.com  Mon Nov 17 16:34:27 2014
From: matthewstory at gmail.com (Matthew Story)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 16:34:27 -0500
Subject: [talk] The Move from Linux to FreeBSD
Message-ID: <CAB+9ogdtAehWOf6GY26b8eLijQ=476T6v8+3cuAhdVjnVQdSsg@mail.gmail.com>

Pretty good post on how and (more importantly) why to get started with
FreeBSD:

http://nileshgr.com/2013/06/07/the-move-from-linux-to-freebsd

-- 
regards,
matt
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Tue Nov 18 09:03:47 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:03:47 -0500
Subject: [talk] $1m donation to FreeBSD
Message-ID: <546B51C3.3050806@ceetonetechnology.com>

Just as we're finally wrapping up the February con money and donating a
whopping $1109.25 to each of the four BSD projects, we are outdone.

The founder of WhatsApp donated $1m to the FreeBSD Foundation.

https://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2014/11/freebsd-foundation-announces-generous.html

g


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Nov 18 10:43:18 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 07:43:18 -0800
Subject: [talk] $1m donation to FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <546B51C3.3050806@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <546B51C3.3050806@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <546B6916.40100@nomadlogic.org>

On 11/18/14 6:03 AM, George Rosamond wrote:
> Just as we're finally wrapping up the February con money and donating a
> whopping $1109.25 to each of the four BSD projects, we are outdone.
>
> The founder of WhatsApp donated $1m to the FreeBSD Foundation.
>
> https://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2014/11/freebsd-foundation-announces-generous.html
>

his facebook post explaining his reasoning for the donation is pretty 
good too i think - for those lucky enough to not have a facebook account 
it boils down to this quote:

"We?ll all benefit if FreeBSD can continue to give people the same 
opportunity it gave me ? if it can lift more immigrant kids out of 
poverty, and help more startups build something successful, and even 
transformative."

-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA


From jkeen at verizon.net  Wed Nov 19 18:47:42 2014
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 18:47:42 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ambiguity in [announce]
Message-ID: <546D2C1E.7040005@verizon.net>

The post on [announce] today re holiday party included this:

#####
We haven't yet planned a meeting for Dec 7, but are considering
something informal
#####

Should that have been (Wed) Dec 03?  or Dec 10?

Thank you very much.
Jim Keenan


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Nov 19 21:50:58 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 21:50:58 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ambiguity in [announce]
In-Reply-To: <546D2C1E.7040005@verizon.net>
References: <546D2C1E.7040005@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <546D5712.2040809@ceetonetechnology.com>

James E Keenan:
> The post on [announce] today re holiday party included this:
> 
> #####
> We haven't yet planned a meeting for Dec 7, but are considering
> something informal
> #####
> 
> Should that have been (Wed) Dec 03?  or Dec 10?

03.. .nice catch.

g



From mark.saad at ymail.com  Thu Nov 20 09:08:47 2014
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:08:47 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ike try bsdrp in place of pfsense
In-Reply-To: <BEEBB218-3127-41F3-9474-4D23C9D37218@neville-neil.com>
References: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>
 <B44EA6AD-1628-414B-B1BE-9B97F119F9BD@neville-neil.com>
 <D187C3DF-9DA6-40FC-BDD4-3330D6DB0026@ymail.com>
 <BEEBB218-3127-41F3-9474-4D23C9D37218@neville-neil.com>
Message-ID: <F90EF637-28E3-49FE-A186-B0092D6B082C@ymail.com>

Hi all
  Just wanted to forward the bsdrp 1.5.3 is out . Built off 10.1 with some back ports from head .

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.53/

---
Mark 

> On Nov 6, 2014, at 12:34 AM, George Neville-Neil <gnn at neville-neil.com> wrote:
> 
> On 5 Nov 2014, at 21:28, Mark Saad wrote:
> 
>>> On Nov 6, 2014, at 12:15 AM, George Neville-Neil <gnn at neville-neil.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 5 Nov 2014, at 21:10, Mark Saad wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Ike
>>>> Like I said in your talk try bsdrp . It's 10-stable before 10.1 . You can roll your own bits as needed .
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.52/
>>> 
>>> BTW The next pfSense is based on FreeBSD 10.
>> 
>> Gnn are you using the newer pfsense ? If so on what hardware ? What has your experience been like ?
> 
> Stating up front: I am hacking on pfSense (actually FreeBSD with PF) for the NetGate folks.
> 
> I have not deployed it in a production environment but the performance of 10 over 8
> (which is pfSense 2.2 vs. 2.1.5) in the lab shows a marked improvement.
> 
> If you want to see the raw numbers from my work with packet filters on FreeBSD
> you can track the gvnn3/netperf project on github.  The work is all sponsored
> by Rubicon Communications which is the company that's doing all that work.
> 
> I'll be putting more tests and results up in that project.
> 
> Best,
> George



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Nov 20 09:27:31 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:27:31 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ike try bsdrp in place of pfsense
In-Reply-To: <F90EF637-28E3-49FE-A186-B0092D6B082C@ymail.com>
References: <478012CB-D3E2-49EE-B70C-C3472746D865@ymail.com>
 <B44EA6AD-1628-414B-B1BE-9B97F119F9BD@neville-neil.com>
 <D187C3DF-9DA6-40FC-BDD4-3330D6DB0026@ymail.com>
 <BEEBB218-3127-41F3-9474-4D23C9D37218@neville-neil.com>
 <F90EF637-28E3-49FE-A186-B0092D6B082C@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <546DFA53.70702@ceetonetechnology.com>

Mark Saad:
> Hi all
>   Just wanted to forward the bsdrp 1.5.3 is out . Built off 10.1 with some back ports from head .
> 
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bsdrp/files/BSD_Router_Project/1.53/

more details on this project Mark?

Have you run it?  Your experiences?

g


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Nov 20 09:40:12 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:40:12 -0500
Subject: [talk] $1m donation to FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <546B6916.40100@nomadlogic.org>
References: <546B51C3.3050806@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546B6916.40100@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <546DFD4C.50102@ceetonetechnology.com>

Pete Wright:
> On 11/18/14 6:03 AM, George Rosamond wrote:
>> Just as we're finally wrapping up the February con money and donating a
>> whopping $1109.25 to each of the four BSD projects, we are outdone.
>>
>> The founder of WhatsApp donated $1m to the FreeBSD Foundation.
>>
>> https://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2014/11/freebsd-foundation-announces-generous.html
>>
>>
> 
> his facebook post explaining his reasoning for the donation is pretty
> good too i think - for those lucky enough to not have a facebook account
> it boils down to this quote:

(those with fb pages are lucky? ;P

> 
> "We?ll all benefit if FreeBSD can continue to give people the same
> opportunity it gave me ? if it can lift more immigrant kids out of
> poverty, and help more startups build something successful, and even
> transformative."
> 

On a related but much smaller note, we finally closed out the accounting
for NYCBSDCon 2014.  Yes, it took a while, but we're all volunteers here.

Donations of $1109.25 are in transit to or have been received by the
four BSD projects.

www.nycbsdcon.org

It goes without saying that everyone involved deserves a huge thanks.  A
lot of people deal with logistics and the PITA details, a lot of people
drag along people from work, and we don't have any hassles with sponsors.

And thanks to Boris K. for smashing the auction expectations for the new
edition of Michael W Lucas' OpenBSD book.

In order to do another similar event, we need to scope out new space, as
Suspenders is no more.

g




From mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org  Thu Nov 20 09:56:10 2014
From: mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org (Michael W. Lucas)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:56:10 -0500
Subject: [talk] $1m donation to FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <546DFD4C.50102@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <546B51C3.3050806@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546B6916.40100@nomadlogic.org>
 <546DFD4C.50102@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20141120145610.GB34386@mail.michaelwlucas.com>


On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 09:40:12AM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> And thanks to Boris K. for smashing the auction expectations for the new
> edition of Michael W Lucas' OpenBSD book.

Best. Auction. Ever.

> In order to do another similar event, we need to scope out new space, as
> Suspenders is no more.

I was very surprised at how well Suspenders worked for the con. Think
outside the box again.

People want more BSDCons. I had several requests to actually make
DetroitBSDCon happen. NYCBSDCon must live!

==ml

-- 
Michael W. Lucas  -  mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com, Twitter @mwlauthor 
http://www.MichaelWLucas.com/, http://blather.MichaelWLucas.com/


From christos at zoulas.com  Thu Nov 20 14:33:56 2014
From: christos at zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 14:33:56 -0500
Subject: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
Message-ID: <20141120193356.864A817FDA3@rebar.astron.com>


Hi,

I was asked by George to post here. Some folks at NetBSD have been
toying with the idea to provide a set of test machines that are
internet accessible for testing, performance, and comparison
purposes. Since we (NetBSD) don't have any more hosting space
available, we are asking if nycbug is interested in hosting such
a beast.

The idea is to have a bunch of machines with identical hardware
running different OS's (Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Illumos, etc.) so
that we can compare performance and behavior. We would probably
make the machines netboot standardized images, and people could
reserve time on them to do their work. When the work is completed
people would check the machines back to the pool and any local
changes would be destroyed.

NetBSD can provide some of the hardware (there are lots of decent
machines on E-bay for not a lot of money).

I think that having such as setup would be useful to people for
interoperatibility, compatibility and performance testing.

Best,

christos


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Thu Nov 20 14:55:37 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:55:37 -0800
Subject: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
In-Reply-To: <20141120193356.864A817FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
References: <20141120193356.864A817FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
Message-ID: <546E4739.7040601@nomadlogic.org>



On 11/20/14 11:33, Christos Zoulas wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was asked by George to post here. Some folks at NetBSD have been
> toying with the idea to provide a set of test machines that are
> internet accessible for testing, performance, and comparison
> purposes. Since we (NetBSD) don't have any more hosting space
> available, we are asking if nycbug is interested in hosting such
> a beast.
>
> The idea is to have a bunch of machines with identical hardware
> running different OS's (Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Illumos, etc.) so
> that we can compare performance and behavior. We would probably
> make the machines netboot standardized images, and people could
> reserve time on them to do their work. When the work is completed
> people would check the machines back to the pool and any local
> changes would be destroyed.
>
> NetBSD can provide some of the hardware (there are lots of decent
> machines on E-bay for not a lot of money).
>
> I think that having such as setup would be useful to people for
> interoperatibility, compatibility and performance testing.
>

Hi Christos,
	I think this is a great idea and would be keen to assist where 
possible.  I can see lots of benefit in this arena as well for not just 
OS's but the management tools for managing heterogenous environments. 
For example - I use cobbler quite extensively to manage my pxe 
environments, but I rarely have to support more than RedHat and FreeBSD 
systems.  So having a lab like this could really benefit the cobbler 
project to ensure support for Net/Open/Dragonfly BSD as well as Illumos 
is up to snuff.

Keep me in the loop!

Cheers,
-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA



From mark.saad at ymail.com  Thu Nov 20 15:05:55 2014
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:05:55 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
Message-ID: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>

Check it out,

http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/11/20/185246/ask-slashdot-workaday-software-for-bsd-on-the-desktop

-- 
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Nov 20 19:15:58 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:15:58 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>

Mark Saad:
> Check it out,
> 
> http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/11/20/185246/ask-slashdot-workaday-software-for-bsd-on-the-desktop
> 

Yeah, and Matt S posted that other story recently on a related note.

It's an interesting thing in one way.  It's a route for people to get
their feet wet, and have "BSD experience" and hopefully move into deeper
usage.  And maybe increase the pool of BSD people for infrastructure and
dev jobs out there.

I think the BSDs are mostly fine on laptops (although I've never had
FBSD resume from sleep on a Thinkpad...), and I am personally not
comfortable on another "desktop OS."  And it certainly makes dealing
with BSD servers easier, since the man pages, etc., reflect what's on a
server.

But I am also concerned about the expectations of a lot of the younger
Linux crew who don't know there is a shell on their box, then have to
deal with it in some way, or even ncurses.  It's not 1999 anymore, and
it seems a lot of distros focused on being shiny eye-candy and made the
transition to Linux from OSX or Windows feel smooth.

g


From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Nov 20 19:23:37 2014
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:23:37 -0500
Subject: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
In-Reply-To: <546E4739.7040601@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20141120193356.864A817FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
 <546E4739.7040601@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwzEH_VfGf_Ff6w1AVG=JmCa-UcObL2m0wR0HJgfYG0=_A@mail.gmail.com>

A nice way to do this is to find an older generation blade center. They
typically have nice remote management features. This makes it easy to do
bare metal installs remotely and you can likely get roughly 14 systems in a
6u space.

When you say 'a bunch' roughly how many is that?

On Thursday, November 20, 2014, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/20/14 11:33, Christos Zoulas wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was asked by George to post here. Some folks at NetBSD have been
>> toying with the idea to provide a set of test machines that are
>> internet accessible for testing, performance, and comparison
>> purposes. Since we (NetBSD) don't have any more hosting space
>> available, we are asking if nycbug is interested in hosting such
>> a beast.
>>
>> The idea is to have a bunch of machines with identical hardware
>> running different OS's (Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Illumos, etc.) so
>> that we can compare performance and behavior. We would probably
>> make the machines netboot standardized images, and people could
>> reserve time on them to do their work. When the work is completed
>> people would check the machines back to the pool and any local
>> changes would be destroyed.
>>
>> NetBSD can provide some of the hardware (there are lots of decent
>> machines on E-bay for not a lot of money).
>>
>> I think that having such as setup would be useful to people for
>> interoperatibility, compatibility and performance testing.
>>
>>
> Hi Christos,
>         I think this is a great idea and would be keen to assist where
> possible.  I can see lots of benefit in this arena as well for not just
> OS's but the management tools for managing heterogenous environments. For
> example - I use cobbler quite extensively to manage my pxe environments,
> but I rarely have to support more than RedHat and FreeBSD systems.  So
> having a lab like this could really benefit the cobbler project to ensure
> support for Net/Open/Dragonfly BSD as well as Illumos is up to snuff.
>
> Keep me in the loop!
>
> Cheers,
> -pete
>
>
> --
> Pete Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> twitter => @nomadlogicLA
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
usual.
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Thu Nov 20 19:27:37 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:27:37 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>



On 11/20/14 16:15, George Rosamond wrote:
> Mark Saad:
>> Check it out,
>>
>> http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/11/20/185246/ask-slashdot-workaday-software-for-bsd-on-the-desktop
>>
>
> Yeah, and Matt S posted that other story recently on a related note.
>
> It's an interesting thing in one way.  It's a route for people to get
> their feet wet, and have "BSD experience" and hopefully move into deeper
> usage.  And maybe increase the pool of BSD people for infrastructure and
> dev jobs out there.
>
> I think the BSDs are mostly fine on laptops (although I've never had
> FBSD resume from sleep on a Thinkpad...), and I am personally not
> comfortable on another "desktop OS."  And it certainly makes dealing
> with BSD servers easier, since the man pages, etc., reflect what's on a
> server.
>
> But I am also concerned about the expectations of a lot of the younger
> Linux crew who don't know there is a shell on their box, then have to
> deal with it in some way, or even ncurses.  It's not 1999 anymore, and
> it seems a lot of distros focused on being shiny eye-candy and made the
> transition to Linux from OSX or Windows feel smooth.
>

my prediction is that in next several years is there are going to be 
three pools of unix users:

1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it
2) chromebook/ubuntu people
3) old guard *bsd and non-ubuntu users

what i'm really keeping an eye open for is for someone to finally come 
up with decent laptop hardware that can compete with macbook pro's or 
even google chromebooks.  i've never run a lenovo thinkpad but i've 
heard they are kinda lacking these days.  used an HP for a year and it 
was pretty awful...chromebooks look pretty great, but using android for 
my os is kinda scary.

now that i've said all of this i'm really hoping this email bites me in 
the ass in 5 years and something comes out of no where to surprise me :)

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA



From christos at zoulas.com  Thu Nov 20 19:43:39 2014
From: christos at zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:43:39 -0500
Subject: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwzEH_VfGf_Ff6w1AVG=JmCa-UcObL2m0wR0HJgfYG0=_A@mail.gmail.com>
 from Edward Capriolo (Nov 20,  7:23pm)
Message-ID: <20141121004339.1AEED17FDA3@rebar.astron.com>

On Nov 20,  7:23pm, edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) wrote:
-- Subject: Re: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems

| A nice way to do this is to find an older generation blade center. They
| typically have nice remote management features. This makes it easy to do
| bare metal installs remotely and you can likely get roughly 14 systems in a
| 6u space.

That's a great idea, but I am not sure we can afford the space or the power.

| When you say 'a bunch' roughly how many is that?

At least 2 :-) Plus another possibly existing box for management and
services.

christos


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Nov 20 20:08:43 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:08:43 -0500
Subject: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
In-Reply-To: <20141121004339.1AEED17FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
References: <20141121004339.1AEED17FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
Message-ID: <546E909B.1060500@ceetonetechnology.com>

Christos Zoulas:
> On Nov 20,  7:23pm, edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) wrote:
> -- Subject: Re: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
> 
> | A nice way to do this is to find an older generation blade center. They
> | typically have nice remote management features. This makes it easy to do
> | bare metal installs remotely and you can likely get roughly 14 systems in a
> | 6u space.
> 
> That's a great idea, but I am not sure we can afford the space or the power.
> 
> | When you say 'a bunch' roughly how many is that?
> 
> At least 2 :-) Plus another possibly existing box for management and
> services.

Yes, we can definitely handle the power needs of up to four Soekrii box ;)

That's the one issue we're waiting on... what our current power
utilization is, and what it will be.

g



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Nov 20 20:12:19 2014
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:12:19 -0500
Subject: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
In-Reply-To: <20141121004339.1AEED17FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
References: <CAENxBwzEH_VfGf_Ff6w1AVG=JmCa-UcObL2m0wR0HJgfYG0=_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141121004339.1AEED17FDA3@rebar.astron.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBww7qhQ3mFztNrXv1pnAJ32=HOAwiMQsP9hcyafTzY8bNA@mail.gmail.com>

2-7 is a number that you might consider a basement with a business class
cable account that will give you a few IPs and inbound access.

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Christos Zoulas <christos at zoulas.com>
wrote:

> On Nov 20,  7:23pm, edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) wrote:
> -- Subject: Re: [talk] Creating a test lab for OpenSource Operating Systems
>
> | A nice way to do this is to find an older generation blade center. They
> | typically have nice remote management features. This makes it easy to do
> | bare metal installs remotely and you can likely get roughly 14 systems
> in a
> | 6u space.
>
> That's a great idea, but I am not sure we can afford the space or the
> power.
>
> | When you say 'a bunch' roughly how many is that?
>
> At least 2 :-) Plus another possibly existing box for management and
> services.
>
> christos
>
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Nov 20 20:13:01 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:13:01 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>

Pete Wright:
> 
> 
> On 11/20/14 16:15, George Rosamond wrote:
>> Mark Saad:
>>> Check it out,
>>>
>>> http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/11/20/185246/ask-slashdot-workaday-software-for-bsd-on-the-desktop
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, and Matt S posted that other story recently on a related note.
>>
>> It's an interesting thing in one way.  It's a route for people to get
>> their feet wet, and have "BSD experience" and hopefully move into deeper
>> usage.  And maybe increase the pool of BSD people for infrastructure and
>> dev jobs out there.
>>
>> I think the BSDs are mostly fine on laptops (although I've never had
>> FBSD resume from sleep on a Thinkpad...), and I am personally not
>> comfortable on another "desktop OS."  And it certainly makes dealing
>> with BSD servers easier, since the man pages, etc., reflect what's on a
>> server.
>>
>> But I am also concerned about the expectations of a lot of the younger
>> Linux crew who don't know there is a shell on their box, then have to
>> deal with it in some way, or even ncurses.  It's not 1999 anymore, and
>> it seems a lot of distros focused on being shiny eye-candy and made the
>> transition to Linux from OSX or Windows feel smooth.
>>
> 
> my prediction is that in next several years is there are going to be
> three pools of unix users:
> 
> 1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it

okay... but a bit of a stretch for most of them.  You mean iPads too? :0

> 2) chromebook/ubuntu people
> 3) old guard *bsd and non-ubuntu users
> 

I get the impression a lot of the number 3 category fits in number 2.  No?

> what i'm really keeping an eye open for is for someone to finally come
> up with decent laptop hardware that can compete with macbook pro's or
> even google chromebooks.  i've never run a lenovo thinkpad but i've
> heard they are kinda lacking these days.  used an HP for a year and it
> was pretty awful...chromebooks look pretty great, but using android for
> my os is kinda scary.

+1 on the scariness of androidism.

But with the focus of OpenBSD devs on Thinkpads, I have to say I'm happy.

OpenBSD just works on the Thinkpads, from my experience.

> 
> now that i've said all of this i'm really hoping this email bites me in
> the ass in 5 years and something comes out of no where to surprise me :)

I think you are just describing reality today, and you didn't say
anything most people on this list would find controversial, in all honesty.

g



From spork at bway.net  Thu Nov 20 22:09:57 2014
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 22:09:57 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <4DBD21BE-D953-46C2-97AB-7CBF283C5D8E@bway.net>

On Nov 20, 2014, at 8:13 PM, George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:

> Pete Wright:
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/20/14 16:15, George Rosamond wrote:
>>> Mark Saad:
>> 
>> my prediction is that in next several years is there are going to be
>> three pools of unix users:
>> 
>> 1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it
> 
> okay... but a bit of a stretch for most of them.  You mean iPads too? :0

And even iPhones.  :)

http://i.imgur.com/96Is1PI.png


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Fri Nov 21 12:49:31 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:49:31 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>



On 11/20/14 17:13, George Rosamond wrote:

>> my prediction is that in next several years is there are going to be
>> three pools of unix users:
>>
>> 1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it
>
> okay... but a bit of a stretch for most of them.  You mean iPads too? :0
>

yea i think i would.  i guess that's the point i was trying to make - 
there is a huge group of people running a Unix type OS for non-technical 
work and they don't even know it.


>> 2) chromebook/ubuntu people
>> 3) old guard *bsd and non-ubuntu users
>>
>
> I get the impression a lot of the number 3 category fits in number 2.  No?

well from what i've noticed is a *lot* of the young programmers i've 
been working with (kids a year or two out of university) is that they 
think linux is unix, and linux is pretty much a GUI only experience. 
trying real hard to not call them clueless newbies...but they are 
clueless newbies :)


>
>> what i'm really keeping an eye open for is for someone to finally come
>> up with decent laptop hardware that can compete with macbook pro's or
>> even google chromebooks.  i've never run a lenovo thinkpad but i've
>> heard they are kinda lacking these days.  used an HP for a year and it
>> was pretty awful...chromebooks look pretty great, but using android for
>> my os is kinda scary.
>
> +1 on the scariness of androidism.
>
> But with the focus of OpenBSD devs on Thinkpads, I have to say I'm happy.
>
> OpenBSD just works on the Thinkpads, from my experience.
>

thanks i'm gonna start checking out some thinkpads - good to know!

-p

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA



From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov 21 14:17:26 2014
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:17:26 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/20/14 17:13, George Rosamond wrote:
> 
> >>my prediction is that in next several years is there are going to be
> >>three pools of unix users:
> >>
> >>1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it

This group isn't relevant to us...wow, that sounds elitist, but the point
is, Yeah, OSX got itself Unix certified and these people use it, but it has
little or nothing to do with the BSDs' acceptance or lack of it.


> - there is a huge group of people running a Unix type OS for
> non-technical work and they don't even know it.

Fair enough, but none of them care that Netflix won't run on FreeBSD, so
they won't apply any financial pressure. 


> 
> 
> >>2) chromebook/ubuntu people
> >>3) old guard *bsd and non-ubuntu users
> >>
> >
> >I get the impression a lot of the number 3 category fits in number 2.  No?
> 
> well from what i've noticed is a *lot* of the young programmers i've
> been working with (kids a year or two out of university) is that
> they think linux is unix, and linux is pretty much a GUI only
> experience. trying real hard to not call them clueless newbies...but
> they are clueless newbies :)

Meh.  I think that many of the current Linux developers seem to either
think as smart phone touch screen users, or at best, single user laptop
owners who seem to have difficulty comprehending that not everyone runs a
single user system using wireless DHCP, or shares with a family. 

That doesn't mean their clueless, it just means that they have different
needs, and those who are coding server type systems seem to not realize
several realities of running servers.  Simple example, when RedHat decided
to concentrate on the GUI installation, starting with RHEL6, crippling text
mode.  Back when I worked at a primarily CentOS shop, I used Fedora so I
would be ready for the next crop of desktop oriented decisions. Others on,
for example, the CentOS list, were shocked. 

One can still do the sysadmin type things and set it up, but it requires
more work.  Honestly, I don't know enough about systemd to know if my
dislike for it is justified, but lots of things about it made me think that
Mr. Poettering doesn't think like a sysadmin.  

Anyway...too often, especially on some Linux oriented things, I've seen,
"Well, let's make it easy for the newcomers," to the point of welding on
the training wheels so they are almost impossible to remove.  (Great
phrase, I wish I could take credit, but the welding on the training wheels
is from someone on Fedora forums.)  As for me, this is how I feel about
newcomers.  (The scene is that the man and the woman have been given a head
start by a drug dealer who plans to hunt them.)
http://srobb.net/selfish.mp4

Yet, while I don't want the BSDs welding on the training wheels, I also
fear that if the next generation of admins/coders find little to interest
them, it will simply fade away.  Even now, the BSDs are usually well behind
Linux in hardware support.  There's 3 or 4 things that _I_ do that require
Linux because FreeBSD won't work properly.  

So, the advantage of gaining a user base is that it does start vendors,
both hardware and software (as well as media vendors like Netflix) to start
thinking about supporting said userbase.  

Note that all this is completely subjective, not backed up by anything save
notice that more programs seem to support Linux than did many years ago.


-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov 21 14:27:35 2014
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:27:35 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <20141121192735.GA28702@scott1.scottro.net>

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:17:26PM -0500, Scott Robbins wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> > 
> 
> That doesn't mean their clueless, it just means that they have different
> needs, and those who are coding server type systems seem to not realize
> several realities of running servers.  


That should have been "they're clueless."  Shame on me.  



 As for me, this is how I feel about
> newcomers.  (The scene is that the man and the woman have been given a head
> start by a drug dealer who plans to hunt them.)
> http://srobb.net/selfish.mp4

(And for those who don't know and are curious, the show is Archer.)

-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From bcully at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 14:45:23 2014
From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:45:23 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <79143FD6-5060-4BFB-8F4B-F1E956D8BB0C@gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2014, at 14:17, Scott Robbins <scottro at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> Yet, while I don't want the BSDs welding on the training wheels, I also
> fear that if the next generation of admins/coders find little to interest
> them, it will simply fade away.  Even now, the BSDs are usually well behind
> Linux in hardware support.  There's 3 or 4 things that _I_ do that require
> Linux because FreeBSD won't work properly.  

	Lack of hardware support is a perennial issue in *BSDland. However, most of the hardware I?d want to use is supported, even if I can?t get my laptop to wake up from sleep properly; not that I do, because why would I run BSD on my laptop unless I was working on making it run on my laptop?

> So, the advantage of gaining a user base is that it does start vendors,
> both hardware and software (as well as media vendors like Netflix) to start
> thinking about supporting said userbase.  

	We live in a bifurcated environment. If you want to run Netflix on FreeBSD you?re doing it wrong. Go get a mac or windows pc and watch Netflix. The idea that FreeBSD/Linux/HURD/Plan9 has to run on end-user machines is, in my view, insane. Linux on the desktop hasn?t worked as a concept for almost twenty years now and it?s well past time to get over that. You want Unix on a laptop? Enjoy OS X. Works better than anything else. You want to hack a ?proper? Unix on your laptop? Use ssh, or install VirtualBox or something and do it that way while you get to use web browsers that actually work, trackpads that support gestures, and consistently available copy-and-paste.

	Honestly, it?s almost RMS-worthy to me that someone would insist on installing Linux or a BSD on their laptop chasing some kind of righteous calling, except that RMS doesn?t get angry that Netflix doesn?t work on it.

-bjc


From john at netpurgatory.com  Fri Nov 21 15:15:17 2014
From: john at netpurgatory.com (John C. Vernaleo)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:15:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <79143FD6-5060-4BFB-8F4B-F1E956D8BB0C@gmail.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <79143FD6-5060-4BFB-8F4B-F1E956D8BB0C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1411211505220.11386@yoshi>

>
> 	Lack of hardware support is a perennial issue in *BSDland. However, most of the hardware I?d want to use is supported, even if I can?t get my laptop to wake up from sleep properly; not that I do, because why would I run BSD on my laptop unless I was working on making it run on my laptop?
>
> 	We live in a bifurcated environment. If you want to run Netflix on FreeBSD you?re doing it wrong. Go get a mac or windows pc and watch Netflix. The idea that FreeBSD/Linux/HURD/Plan9 has to run on end-user machines is, in my view, insane. Linux on the desktop hasn?t worked as a concept for almost twenty years now and it?s well past time to get over that. You want Unix on a laptop? Enjoy OS X. Works better than anything else. You want to hack a ?proper? Unix on your laptop? Use ssh, or install VirtualBox or something and do it that way while you get to use web browsers that actually work, trackpads that support gestures, and consistently available copy-and-paste.

What about people who run Linux or *BSD on their laptops because they 
don't want to pay a ton for Apple hardware and find the Windows interface 
basically useless?  I've been using Linux on my desktop for years and 
these days BSD (bitrig) on my laptop.  I realize that most people won't 
end up doing either of those things, but I just don't see that as meaning 
we should give up on it for the people who want it.  I prefer having 
similar OSes for my desktop, laptops, and servers.

As for copy and paste, that's been working pretty consistantly for me with 
FVWM since dinosaurs were around (okay, fine, emacs is different, but 
isn't it always?).

And to echo what others have said, even recent thinkpads seem to work 
really well with OpenBSD and Bitrig.

John

From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov 21 15:49:07 2014
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:49:07 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1411211505220.11386@yoshi>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <79143FD6-5060-4BFB-8F4B-F1E956D8BB0C@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1411211505220.11386@yoshi>
Message-ID: <20141121204907.GA13352@scott1.scottro.net>

> >
> >	We live in a bifurcated environment. If you want to run Netflix on FreeBSD you?re doing it wrong. Go get a mac or windows pc and watch Netflix. The idea that FreeBSD/Linux/HURD/Plan9 has to run on end-user machines is, in my view, insane. Linux on the desktop hasn?t worked as a concept for almost twenty years now and it?s well past time to get over that. You want Unix on a laptop? Enjoy OS X. Works better than anything else. You want to hack a ?proper? Unix on your laptop? Use ssh, or install VirtualBox or something and do it that way while you get to use web browsers that actually work, trackpads that support gestures, and consistently available copy-and-paste.

Sorry, I can't agree with that.  Let's take my earlier mention of Fedora
and RedHat.  I used Fedora on my workstation and laptops, which helped
prepare me for what I was getting paid for, seeing what RedHat was going to
do.


Ok, a real world example, of Linux, not a BSD, but. .  I had a laptop that had come with
Windows--Vista?  No idea.  It was old. My wife's girlfriend wanted a laptop
but didn't have money enough to buy a good one. I set this up for the
friend, complete with Japanese input, and, due to some Linux developer's
work, the ability to use her Netflix account.

So, this girl couldn't afford a Mac.  Windows would have run badly on this
old computer.  If Linux weren't as popular as it is, its developers might
not have encompassed someone who put in the time and effort to get Netflix
working.  

The more I run FreeBSD, the more I learn about it--maybe the
fact that while watching a movie on it, I might be doing something else
too, whereas if I were watching it on a Windows machine, I might consider
it too much trouble to go over to another computer. 

And many of us might just do it because we can. The fact that you don't
think that's a good idea just means that for you, it isn't.  You could
say, Well, look how much time you're wasting trying to get X to work doing
Y, but who knows what might come in useful sometime down the road?  

Maybe someone else will want a computer of mine later, and it has FreeBSD
on it, and because I spent what some might consider wasted time getting
something to work, I can give it to them without having to waste the time
to install Linux on it for them to get a program they need.  :)



-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From pete at nomadlogic.org  Fri Nov 21 16:55:28 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:55:28 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>



On 11/21/14 11:17, Scott Robbins wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 11/20/14 17:13, George Rosamond wrote:
>>
>>>> my prediction is that in next several years is there are going to be
>>>> three pools of unix users:
>>>>
>>>> 1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it
>
> This group isn't relevant to us...wow, that sounds elitist, but the point
> is, Yeah, OSX got itself Unix certified and these people use it, but it has
> little or nothing to do with the BSDs' acceptance or lack of it.
>

you sure?  having a company like apple develop against a unix'y system 
is pretty helpful.  for example the list of software here is all being 
used by/patched by apple:
https://www.apple.com/opensource/

you could also argue that by moving over to clang/llvm is another 
example of the indirect benefit having such a huge userbase has helped 
other systems developers.


-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA



From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov 21 17:07:21 2014
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 17:07:21 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 01:55:28PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/21/14 11:17, Scott Robbins wrote:
> >On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>On 11/20/14 17:13, George Rosamond wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it
> >
> >This group isn't relevant to us...wow, that sounds elitist, but the point
> >is, Yeah, OSX got itself Unix certified and these people use it, but it has
> >little or nothing to do with the BSDs' acceptance or lack of it.
> >
> 
> you sure?  having a company like apple develop against a unix'y
> system is pretty helpful.  for example the list of software here is
> all being used by/patched by apple:
> https://www.apple.com/opensource/

Good point, that I overlooked.  

-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Nov 21 17:58:20 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 17:58:20 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net> <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>

Scott Robbins:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 01:55:28PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 11/21/14 11:17, Scott Robbins wrote:
>>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/20/14 17:13, George Rosamond wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) osx peeps who are using unix w/o really knowing it
>>>
>>> This group isn't relevant to us...wow, that sounds elitist, but the point
>>> is, Yeah, OSX got itself Unix certified and these people use it, but it has
>>> little or nothing to do with the BSDs' acceptance or lack of it.
>>>
>>
>> you sure?  having a company like apple develop against a unix'y
>> system is pretty helpful.  for example the list of software here is
>> all being used by/patched by apple:
>> https://www.apple.com/opensource/
> 
> Good point, that I overlooked.  
> 

Something got lost here.  Or my reading comprehension is poor.

Pete brought up OSX users as a group that "uses Unix."  Well, yes, if
you count the fees included in formally making that statement and the
lot of its origins, userland, etc.

It's hard not to argue that Apple has contributed, and it's platform
allows some portability.

But I would almost put them in the same boat as Ubuntu-esque Linux
users.  They don't know there's a shell on the box/device, well, outside
of Spork's picture.  We were talking about the paths of today's "Unix
users."  I see most OSX users in much the same light: we're alternative
rebels against Windows.. .or at least they used to act like that,
without much more depth.

And no, don't strawman-me by talking about Unix people using OSX... no
one's talking about them.</grin>

Most of the regular OSX and Ubuntu users would be shocked if a
mysterious black rectangle appeared on their displays with a % or $.
They would reach for a help desk number quick.  Almost as quick as
someone driving a Mercedes seeing their pf ruleset.

I mean, would people using Netflix be considered FreeBSD users?

;P

g


From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov 21 18:34:04 2014
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:34:04 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net>

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 05:58:20PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
> Scott Robbins:
> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 01:55:28PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/21/14 11:17, Scott Robbins wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
> >>>>

(Pete wrote)
> >>
> >> you sure?  having a company like apple develop against a unix'y
> >> system is pretty helpful.  for example the list of software here is
> >> all being used by/patched by apple:
> >> https://www.apple.com/opensource/

(I, Scott, wrote)

> > 
> > Good point, that I overlooked.  
> > 
> 
> Something got lost here.  Or my reading comprehension is poor.


> 
> Pete brought up OSX users as a group that "uses Unix."  Well, yes, if
> you count the fees included in formally making that statement and the
> lot of its origins, userland, etc.
> 
> But I would almost put them in the same boat as Ubuntu-esque Linux
> users.  They don't know there's a shell on the box/device, well, outside
> of Spork's picture.  We were talking about the paths of today's "Unix
> users."  I see most OSX users in much the same light: we're alternative
> rebels against Windows.. .or at least they used to act like that,
> without much more depth.

I think what Pete means is that all those OS X users make vendors worry
about Apple, and Apple worry about supporting its users, sometimes creating
things that can be used by the BSDs.  I don't pretend to speak for Pete,
but that is what I took away from it.



-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From pete at nomadlogic.org  Fri Nov 21 18:59:08 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:59:08 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net> <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>



On 11/21/14 15:34, Scott Robbins wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 05:58:20PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>> Scott Robbins:
>>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 01:55:28PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/21/14 11:17, Scott Robbins wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>>>>
>
> (Pete wrote)
>>>>
>>>> you sure?  having a company like apple develop against a unix'y
>>>> system is pretty helpful.  for example the list of software here is
>>>> all being used by/patched by apple:
>>>> https://www.apple.com/opensource/
>
> (I, Scott, wrote)
>
>>>
>>> Good point, that I overlooked.
>>>
>>
>> Something got lost here.  Or my reading comprehension is poor.
>
>
>>
>> Pete brought up OSX users as a group that "uses Unix."  Well, yes, if
>> you count the fees included in formally making that statement and the
>> lot of its origins, userland, etc.
>>
>> But I would almost put them in the same boat as Ubuntu-esque Linux
>> users.  They don't know there's a shell on the box/device, well, outside
>> of Spork's picture.  We were talking about the paths of today's "Unix
>> users."  I see most OSX users in much the same light: we're alternative
>> rebels against Windows.. .or at least they used to act like that,
>> without much more depth.
>
> I think what Pete means is that all those OS X users make vendors worry
> about Apple, and Apple worry about supporting its users, sometimes creating
> things that can be used by the BSDs.  I don't pretend to speak for Pete,
> but that is what I took away from it.
>
>

yea that is pretty much the argument I wasn't clearly stating.  although 
to be honest i think i've even confused myself as to what my original 
point is - lol :)

i think it was:
- lots and lots of osx users, they don't know they are using unix.  but 
there are a shit ton of them out there for better or worse.

- fair amount of "hackers" using ubuntu or what ever gui linux'y thing 
is cool these days.  they are pretty much clueless when it comes to unix 
design patterns - yet they feel like they invented what ever "project" 
that comes around <cough> docker/containers</cough>.

- and finally traditional unix people that well all know and love.

i also think i was bummed out at some point that i can't find a good 
laptop (hardware wise) to replace my macbook pro.

-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA



From bcully at gmail.com  Fri Nov 21 23:34:37 2014
From: bcully at gmail.com (Brian Cully)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 23:34:37 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com> <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net> <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net> <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <59670F17-A16E-49CF-B085-4D4DDD062DC9@gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2014, at 18:59, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> On 11/21/14 15:34, Scott Robbins wrote:
>> I think what Pete means is that all those OS X users make vendors worry
>> about Apple, and Apple worry about supporting its users, sometimes creating
>> things that can be used by the BSDs.  I don't pretend to speak for Pete,
>> but that is what I took away from it.
>> 
>> 
> 
> yea that is pretty much the argument I wasn't clearly stating.  although to be honest i think i've even confused myself as to what my original point is - lol :)
> 
> i think it was:
> - lots and lots of osx users, they don't know they are using unix.  but there are a shit ton of them out there for better or worse.
> 
> - fair amount of "hackers" using ubuntu or what ever gui linux'y thing is cool these days.  they are pretty much clueless when it comes to unix design patterns - yet they feel like they invented what ever "project" that comes around <cough> docker/containers</cough>.
> 
> - and finally traditional unix people that well all know and love.


	I would agree with you, and I think your first two points are closer than the people of the second point would like.

	My issue is that the traditional unix method doesn?t appear to work well with GUIs. I?ve certainly spent a lot of time trying to create simple, pipe-based CLI programs that plug in to GUI wrappers, but inevitably, the end result is something awful no one wants, and that?s been my experience with traditional Unix GUI programs and wrappers as well. The only time it works at all is when you allow for monolithic, huge applications that can provide the feedback necessary; IOW, the opposite of the Unix philosophy.

	Hence ?bifurcated.? Unix is very good at server/cli stuff. It basically requires being used that way. Linux (even Ubuntu) sucks on the desktop because it can?t cope with what most people want out of end-user machines. OS X is the most popular Unix out there /because/ most people get confused when a terminal pops up.

	As for the cost of a mac to watch Netflix, you can get used laptops on eBay from a few years ago for a few hundred bucks, or less if you?re willing to go further back, and they can do what you want at least as well as a Chromebook.

-bjc

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From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Sat Nov 22 07:21:40 2014
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:21:40 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <59670F17-A16E-49CF-B085-4D4DDD062DC9@gmail.com>
References: <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
 <59670F17-A16E-49CF-B085-4D4DDD062DC9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141122122140.GB26283@scott1.scottro.net>

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:34:37PM -0500, Brian Cully wrote:


> 
> 	Hence ?bifurcated.? Unix is very good at server/cli stuff. It basically requires being used that way. Linux (even Ubuntu) sucks on the desktop because it can?t cope with what most people want out of end-user machines. OS X is the most popular Unix out there /because/ most people get confused when a terminal pops up.

No argument there.  I don't think that even Ubuntu, or PCBSD on the BSD
side, is ready for someone who just wants to get a computer and have it
work.  Where I would give an argument is that it's not that difficult for
someone with knowledge to set it up for them, but I suspect I agree with
you more than I disagree.   :)

> 
> 	As for the cost of a mac to watch Netflix, you can get used laptops on eBay from a few years ago for a few hundred bucks, or less if you?re willing to go further back, and they can do what you want at least as well as a Chromebook.
> 


A chromebook might have even worked for that person's needs--hotmail,
skype, watching videos, some documents and possibly spreadsheets, in
English and Japanese.  However, for F-1 visa students, only allowed to
work 20 hours a week, which usually means something like waitressing, and
paying for classes, living on an allowance sent by their parents, a few
hundred is a lot of money.  Heh--these days, even for those of us working,
all it takes is one root canal and suddenly, a few hundred can seem like a
lot.

Hrrm--I wonder if they should also count as Unix like systems....

(Doing a very quick google indicates that the Playstation 4's OS is
considered Unixlike--shows you how old I am, gaming was well after my
time.) 

Dodderingly yours,


-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sat Nov 22 11:22:52 2014
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 11:22:52 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E843E.7040100@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwywdsRMD5jMypbxrG-OB=qBLd+S9y-QBWB2DT9SSfaH+g@mail.gmail.com>

So I know on this thread someone mentioned lenovo (thinkpad). I have a
lenovo yoga. Got it about ~1 year ago at 1K. i5, ssd, 8Gb RAM. Here is what
I found. Linux FC 17, touch screen works out of the box

The wireless licensed in a way that can not come with GNU. Same deal with
the bluetooth drivers.

That is the problem I see: mostly vendors do not know how to license
hardware specific drivers in a way that makes if friendly to GNU or BSD.
You find weird projects that do not build with automake or gcc or whatever
and you have to hack at them. Then you cant include it in a standard distro
because of weird source license. Sometimes you find that a device is
supported but you system does not know it is compatible. Like how a hp
laser jet 2000, works fine with a hp laser jet 1999 driver, but your os
does not know this.



On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/21/14 15:34, Scott Robbins wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 05:58:20PM -0500, George Rosamond wrote:
>>
>>> Scott Robbins:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 01:55:28PM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/21/14 11:17, Scott Robbins wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 09:49:31AM -0800, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> (Pete wrote)
>>
>>>
>>>>> you sure?  having a company like apple develop against a unix'y
>>>>> system is pretty helpful.  for example the list of software here is
>>>>> all being used by/patched by apple:
>>>>> https://www.apple.com/opensource/
>>>>>
>>>>
>> (I, Scott, wrote)
>>
>>
>>>> Good point, that I overlooked.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Something got lost here.  Or my reading comprehension is poor.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Pete brought up OSX users as a group that "uses Unix."  Well, yes, if
>>> you count the fees included in formally making that statement and the
>>> lot of its origins, userland, etc.
>>>
>>> But I would almost put them in the same boat as Ubuntu-esque Linux
>>> users.  They don't know there's a shell on the box/device, well, outside
>>> of Spork's picture.  We were talking about the paths of today's "Unix
>>> users."  I see most OSX users in much the same light: we're alternative
>>> rebels against Windows.. .or at least they used to act like that,
>>> without much more depth.
>>>
>>
>> I think what Pete means is that all those OS X users make vendors worry
>> about Apple, and Apple worry about supporting its users, sometimes
>> creating
>> things that can be used by the BSDs.  I don't pretend to speak for Pete,
>> but that is what I took away from it.
>>
>>
>>
> yea that is pretty much the argument I wasn't clearly stating.  although
> to be honest i think i've even confused myself as to what my original point
> is - lol :)
>
> i think it was:
> - lots and lots of osx users, they don't know they are using unix.  but
> there are a shit ton of them out there for better or worse.
>
> - fair amount of "hackers" using ubuntu or what ever gui linux'y thing is
> cool these days.  they are pretty much clueless when it comes to unix
> design patterns - yet they feel like they invented what ever "project" that
> comes around <cough> docker/containers</cough>.
>
> - and finally traditional unix people that well all know and love.
>
> i also think i was bummed out at some point that i can't find a good
> laptop (hardware wise) to replace my macbook pro.
>
> -pete
>
>
> --
> Pete Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> twitter => @nomadlogicLA
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From doroseracledes at gmail.com  Sat Nov 22 12:34:53 2014
From: doroseracledes at gmail.com (doroseracledes at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 12:34:53 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwywdsRMD5jMypbxrG-OB=qBLd+S9y-QBWB2DT9SSfaH+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwywdsRMD5jMypbxrG-OB=qBLd+S9y-QBWB2DT9SSfaH+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141122173453.6676628.60502.2260@gmail.com>

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talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From mark.saad at ymail.com  Sat Nov 22 18:36:15 2014
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 18:36:15 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141122173453.6676628.60502.2260@gmail.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net> <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net> <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwywdsRMD5jMypbxrG-OB=qBLd+S9y-QBWB2DT9SSfaH+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141122173453.6676628.60502.2260@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17E98D5B-3D80-41F8-AE7C-E9317284C8E8@ymail.com>

All
  The conversation continues on hacker news . We should find a nice way to contribute . 

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8645443


On a side bar what do you think of this for a desktop env ?


http://quantum-os.github.io
---

Mark 
> On Nov 22, 2014, at 12:34 PM, doroseracledes at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> OpenBSD runs perfect on the lenovo thinkpad x220 btw.
> 
> Doros
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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From mark.saad at ymail.com  Sat Nov 22 19:49:27 2014
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 19:49:27 -0500
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <17E98D5B-3D80-41F8-AE7C-E9317284C8E8@ymail.com>
References: <546E49A3.5020703@ymail.com>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net> <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net> <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwywdsRMD5jMypbxrG-OB=qBLd+S9y-QBWB2DT9SSfaH+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141122173453.6676628.60502.2260@gmail.com>
 <17E98D5B-3D80-41F8-AE7C-E9317284C8E8@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <626F78B2-F389-41A0-AB85-4DA27F1B3300@ymail.com>

Not sure why my email turned into a mime attachment . In any care here is a repost .

  The conversation continues on hacker news . We should find a nice way to contribute . 

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8645443


On a side bar what do you think of this for a desktop env ?


http://quantum-os.github.io
---


---


> On Nov 22, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> 
> <mime-attachment.html>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Mon Nov 24 13:25:32 2014
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:25:32 -0800
Subject: [talk] Ask Slashdot: Workaday Software For BSD On the Desktop?
In-Reply-To: <20141122122140.GB26283@scott1.scottro.net>
References: <546E86F9.2050801@nomadlogic.org>
 <546E919D.7090800@ceetonetechnology.com> <546F7B2B.1040509@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121191726.GD13988@scott1.scottro.net> <546FB4D0.9040109@nomadlogic.org>
 <20141121220721.GA6300@scott1.scottro.net>
 <546FC38C.4050708@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <20141121233404.GA28961@scott1.scottro.net> <546FD1CC.7030009@nomadlogic.org>
 <59670F17-A16E-49CF-B085-4D4DDD062DC9@gmail.com>
 <20141122122140.GB26283@scott1.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <5473781C.90200@nomadlogic.org>



On 11/22/14 04:21, Scott Robbins wrote:

>
> Hrrm--I wonder if they should also count as Unix like systems....
>
> (Doing a very quick google indicates that the Playstation 4's OS is
> considered Unixlike--shows you how old I am, gaming was well after my
> time.)

it's actually based on FreeBSD 9.x:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software

-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
twitter => @nomadlogicLA



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Nov 26 21:05:34 2014
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:05:34 -0500
Subject: [talk] Fwd: Dec 1 City-Wide Technical Holiday Meta-Party
Message-ID: <547686EE.6040008@ceetonetechnology.com>

Last call on Monday's holiday party...

*****

The RSVP list for the city-wide technical user group "Annual NYC Tech
Holiday Meta-Party" will close down at 5 PM today.

Make sure you RSVP ASAP to rsvp-dec AT nycbug DOT org.  One person per
RSVP, please.

It will be on Monday, December 1 from 7 PM on Clyde Frazier's Wine and
Dine at 485 10th Avenue.  A few dozen NYC user groups are hosting,
including NYC*BUG.