From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Apr  1 12:30:05 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:30:05 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG: April 6, Debugging with LLVM
Message-ID: <56FEA20D.60102@ceetonetechnology.com>

Wednesday, April 6, 645 PM
Debugging with LLVM, John Wolfe
Stone Creek Bar & Lounge: 140 E 27th St

Abstract

"LLDB is a next generation, high-performance debugger. It is built as a
set of reusable components which highly leverage existing libraries in
the larger LLVM Project, such as the Clang expression parser and LLVM
disassembler."

There is a new debugger in town. Developed by Apple for Mac OS X, it is
now available on FreeBSD, Linux and Windows. We will take a brief look
at LLDB's history and its modular design, delve into the commands with a
comparison to GDB's commands, checkout the python interface and put it
all to use to debug a program.

Speaker Bio

John moved to New Jersey when he joined the software development tools
group at AT&T's Unix System Labs in the early 90's. He has been working
on compilers, optimizers, debuggers, and performance tools since then.

***

There's a new BSD user group in Knoxville, TN.  Join their mailing list
at http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/knoxbug-talk

Other Upcoming Events

May 4 - Urchin: Unix-style tests, Thomas Levine

June 10-11 - BSDCan Ottawa, Canada, https://www.bsdcan.org/

June 15 - Adventures in HardenedBSD, Shawn Webb

July 6 - Meet the Smallest BSDs: RetroBSD and LiteBSD, Brian Callahan

August 3 - BSD Installfest

September 7 - Teaching FreeBSD, George Neville-Neil

September 22-23 - EuroBSDCon Belgrade, Serbia,  https://2016.eurobsdcon.org/



From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Mon Apr  4 09:40:54 2016
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 09:40:54 -0400
Subject: [talk] x64 Shellcodes for FreeBSD / OpenBSD
Message-ID: <8A0D8460-C84E-49EA-BE31-49D7D79CD0BE@blackskyresearch.net>

Hey All,

Someone passes this along to me, thought it of general interest here:

https://odzhan.wordpress.com/2016/04/03/x64-shellcodes-bsd/

Shellcode for *BSD stuff, pretty rare to see in the wild?

Best,
.ike




From bonsaime at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 12:33:08 2016
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 09:33:08 -0700
Subject: [talk] x64 Shellcodes for FreeBSD / OpenBSD
In-Reply-To: <8A0D8460-C84E-49EA-BE31-49D7D79CD0BE@blackskyresearch.net>
References: <8A0D8460-C84E-49EA-BE31-49D7D79CD0BE@blackskyresearch.net>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBN_1=SF2Fjfqv4q7P_8WdBSaXJyv-RqLLSC+5Z4oMKxbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Isaac (.ike) Levy
<ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> Someone passes this along to me, thought it of general interest here:
>
> https://odzhan.wordpress.com/2016/04/03/x64-shellcodes-bsd/
>
> Shellcode for *BSD stuff, pretty rare to see in the wild?
>
> Best,
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


I don't really understand the system calls or really the assembler
that much, but thought this was a pretty cool way to get a "negative
1" without fussing about the register width.

 xor     ebx, ebx
 dec     ebx
 push    ebx             ; PARAM: EBX=handle=-1

-- 
-jesse



From briancoca+nycbug at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 14:58:27 2016
From: briancoca+nycbug at gmail.com (Brian Coca)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:58:27 -0400
Subject: [talk] secure boot
Message-ID: <CADn+HswgwZyGqziwyvSeY252udyrkMJEcVFik5J7RK13Fniktw@mail.gmail.com>

Most of you should have seen this by now from HN, but I thought it
merited discussion here, added full thread as the responses are/will
be interesting also.

http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/discussion/2016-April/thread.html#10912

So I've been away from this for a while, last I looked the 'secure
boot' was 'promised' to be shipped with the ability to turn off for
PCs. I know that windows 'tablet's have shipped with this ON and not
toggable, I'm not aware of server/desktop/laptop hardware with the
same issues.

I expect the BSD crowd to encounter these most often as the major
Linux distros have bought certificates or created 'shim loaders' (I
believe some BSDs have ported these)  to avoid this, though
gentoo/sorcerer/any source based/ will probably still have the same
issues.

I would like to know what other people are thinking about this.

Does this finally signal the migration away from x86? Will this be
another boost for ARM? hobbyists  had already started going this
route.

Or has this issue become irrelevant as we are all being pushed to 'the
cloud' and will not own our own computing anyways? Leaving our
'interface terminals' to be IOS/Android phone/laptop/tablets that are
completely controlled by the manufacturer/bandwidth providers?


---------------
Brian Coca



From pete at nomadlogic.org  Mon Apr  4 23:49:53 2016
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2016 20:49:53 -0700
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE Torrents
Message-ID: <570335E1.3060001@nomadlogic.org>

Hey All,
I created some bittorrent magnet links from some of the ISO's available 
for the latest 10.3 freebsd release.  i've never made magnet links in 
the past, so if anyone is up for it it'd be great if you could test this 
magnet link:

magnet:?xl=62055264&dn=FreeBSD-10.3-RELEASE-amd64-bootonly.iso.xz&xt=urn:btih:eiec2jyb5zwvogxobwaap6sly5zjgzza

this should give you a copy of the amd64-bootonly.iso.xz file.  if this 
works i'll publish the rest of the magnet links i have and hopefully 
lessen the load on the ftp infrastructure.

cheers,
-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org



From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Apr  5 12:04:34 2016
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 09:04:34 -0700
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3-RELEASE Torrents
In-Reply-To: <570335E1.3060001@nomadlogic.org>
References: <570335E1.3060001@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <5703E212.3080602@nomadlogic.org>


On 04/04/2016 08:49 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
> Hey All,
> I created some bittorrent magnet links from some of the ISO's available
> for the latest 10.3 freebsd release.  i've never made magnet links in
> the past, so if anyone is up for it it'd be great if you could test this
> magnet link:
>
> magnet:?xl=62055264&dn=FreeBSD-10.3-RELEASE-amd64-bootonly.iso.xz&xt=urn:btih:eiec2jyb5zwvogxobwaap6sly5zjgzza
>
>
> this should give you a copy of the amd64-bootonly.iso.xz file.  if this
> works i'll publish the rest of the magnet links i have and hopefully
> lessen the load on the ftp infrastructure.

so the freebsd wiki has been updated with magnet links for 10.3-RELEASE. 
  seeding is a bit slow for now but as more people start seeding things 
should improve:

https://wiki.freebsd.org/Torrents

-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Apr  6 09:13:33 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 09:13:33 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: Debugging with LLVM
Message-ID: <57050B7D.40808@ceetonetechnology.com>

Wednesday, April 6, 645 PM
Debugging with LLVM, John Wolfe
Stone Creek Bar & Lounge: 140 E 27th St

Abstract

"LLDB is a next generation, high-performance debugger. It is built as a
set of reusable components which highly leverage existing libraries in
the larger LLVM Project, such as the Clang expression parser and LLVM
disassembler."

There is a new debugger in town. Developed by Apple for Mac OS X, it is
now available on FreeBSD, Linux and Windows. We will take a brief look
at LLDB's history and its modular design, delve into the commands with a
comparison to GDB's commands, checkout the python interface and put it
all to use to debug a program.

Speaker Bio

John moved to New Jersey when he joined the software development tools
group at AT&T's Unix System Labs in the early 90's. He has been working
on compilers, optimizers, debuggers, and performance tools since then.

***

There's a new BSD user group in Knoxville, TN.  Join their mailing list
at http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/knoxbug-talk

Other Upcoming Events

May 4 - Urchin: Unix-style tests, Thomas Levine

June 10-11 - BSDCan Ottawa, Canada, https://www.bsdcan.org/

June 15 - Adventures in HardenedBSD, Shawn Webb

July 6 - Meet the Smallest BSDs: RetroBSD and LiteBSD, Brian Callahan

August 3 - BSD Installfest

September 7 - Teaching FreeBSD, George Neville-Neil

September 22-23 - EuroBSDCon Belgrade, Serbia, https://2016.eurobsdcon.org/



From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Thu Apr  7 09:47:38 2016
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 09:47:38 -0400
Subject: [talk] A cool commit for ZFS
Message-ID: <5D67A7B7-F699-43DE-B8B9-3F3F32F9C5FB@blackskyresearch.net>

Pretty amazing IMHO, ZFS I/O limits,

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/svn-src-head/2016-April/084288.html

"  Add four new RCTL resources - readbps, readiops, writebps and writeiops,
 for limiting disk (actually filesystem) IO.

 Note that in some cases these limits are not quite precise. It's ok,
 as long as it's within some reasonable bounds.
"

Best,
.ike




From mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com  Thu Apr  7 10:18:13 2016
From: mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com (Michael W. Lucas)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:18:13 -0400
Subject: [talk] A cool commit for ZFS
In-Reply-To: <5D67A7B7-F699-43DE-B8B9-3F3F32F9C5FB@blackskyresearch.net>
References: <5D67A7B7-F699-43DE-B8B9-3F3F32F9C5FB@blackskyresearch.net>
Message-ID: <20160407141813.GA1312@mail.michaelwlucas.com>

Dude, I'm copyediting the Advanced ZFS book today, trying to get it in
print in the next week or so.

You've just ruined my life.

Sadly, Detroit is really flat and has few rivers, so I don't have any
convenient bridges to throw myself off of.

On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 09:47:38AM -0400, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> Pretty amazing IMHO, ZFS I/O limits,
> 
> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/svn-src-head/2016-April/084288.html
> 
> "  Add four new RCTL resources - readbps, readiops, writebps and writeiops,
>  for limiting disk (actually filesystem) IO.
> 
>  Note that in some cases these limits are not quite precise. It's ok,
>  as long as it's within some reasonable bounds.
> "
> 
> Best,
> .ike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
Michael W. Lucas  -  mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com, Twitter @mwlauthor 
http://www.MichaelWLucas.com/, http://blather.MichaelWLucas.com/



From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Thu Apr  7 10:23:00 2016
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 10:23:00 -0400
Subject: [talk] A cool commit for ZFS
In-Reply-To: <20160407141813.GA1312@mail.michaelwlucas.com>
References: <5D67A7B7-F699-43DE-B8B9-3F3F32F9C5FB@blackskyresearch.net>
 <20160407141813.GA1312@mail.michaelwlucas.com>
Message-ID: <67676AFC-42C5-4447-9D43-5271420CEDCA@blackskyresearch.net>


> On Apr 7, 2016, at 10:18 AM, Michael W. Lucas <mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com> wrote:
> 
> Dude, I'm copyediting the Advanced ZFS book today, trying to get it in
> print in the next week or so.
> 
> You've just ruined my life.

Sincerest apologies!  It's only in head at least :)

And really, people have only waited 20 years for this kind of profoundly powerful functionality...  They can wait until the 2nd Edition :P

> 
> Sadly, Detroit is really flat and has few rivers, so I don't have any
> convenient bridges to throw myself off of.

Good thing!  AFAIK Canadian owns the one big bridge even?

I'm sure the giant fist of Joe Louis is waiting there for a fist bump to cheer you up!

Rocket-
.ike



> 
> On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 09:47:38AM -0400, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>> Pretty amazing IMHO, ZFS I/O limits,
>> 
>> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/svn-src-head/2016-April/084288.html
>> 
>> "  Add four new RCTL resources - readbps, readiops, writebps and writeiops,
>> for limiting disk (actually filesystem) IO.
>> 
>> Note that in some cases these limits are not quite precise. It's ok,
>> as long as it's within some reasonable bounds.
>> "
>> 
>> Best,
>> .ike
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> -- 
> Michael W. Lucas  -  mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com, Twitter @mwlauthor 
> http://www.MichaelWLucas.com/, http://blather.MichaelWLucas.com/



From freebsd-listen at fabiankeil.de  Thu Apr  7 10:29:21 2016
From: freebsd-listen at fabiankeil.de (Fabian Keil)
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:29:21 +0200
Subject: [talk] A cool commit for ZFS
In-Reply-To: <20160407141813.GA1312@mail.michaelwlucas.com>
References: <5D67A7B7-F699-43DE-B8B9-3F3F32F9C5FB@blackskyresearch.net>
 <20160407141813.GA1312@mail.michaelwlucas.com>
Message-ID: <20160407162921.381c0438@fabiankeil.de>

"Michael W. Lucas" <mwlucas at michaelwlucas.com> wrote:

> Dude, I'm copyediting the Advanced ZFS book today, trying to get it in
> print in the next week or so.
> 
> You've just ruined my life.

Note that other OpenZFS consumers such as SmartOS have different
rate-limiting implementations already. Only the shadow knows how
they compare and which one (if any) will eventually end up upstream.

Fabian
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From mark.saad at ymail.com  Sat Apr 16 12:22:35 2016
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 12:22:35 -0400
Subject: [talk] Apu2
Message-ID: <A84BC213-5998-4237-B936-F4DD02D3FE08@ymail.com>

Hi talk 
  I was wondering if anyone out there had tried the pcengines apu2 ? It's an incremental upgrade on the apu . Quad core  amd bobcat , 2 or 4 gig of ram and similar Intel nics . 

---
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sat Apr 16 22:17:56 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 22:17:56 -0400
Subject: [talk] Fwd: NetBSD machines at AsiaBSDCon 2016
In-Reply-To: <20160413.115526.1830182550003775.jun@soum.co.jp>
References: <20160413.115526.1830182550003775.jun@soum.co.jp>
Message-ID: <5712F254.30900@ceetonetechnology.com>

more from Jun at AsiaBSDCon.

g


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: NetBSD machines at AsiaBSDCon 2016
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 11:55:26 +0900 (JST)


BSD Research and Japan NetBSD Users' Group members held booth
at the AsiaBSDCon 2016  on Mar. 10-13 2016:

more detail:
https://github.com/ebijun/osc-demo/blob/master/2016/AsiaBSDCon2016.txt

See you in next AsiaBSDCon2017!
--
Jun Ebihara




From rambiusparkisanius at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 00:14:01 2016
From: rambiusparkisanius at gmail.com (Ivan "Rambius" Ivanov)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 00:14:01 -0400
Subject: [talk] Apu2
In-Reply-To: <A84BC213-5998-4237-B936-F4DD02D3FE08@ymail.com>
References: <A84BC213-5998-4237-B936-F4DD02D3FE08@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rwzP9DU+29=4WaKKivHsN+NXxmCGa4ivjQp2zpGufCAFXJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> Hi talk
>   I was wondering if anyone out there had tried the pcengines apu2 ? It's an incremental upgrade on the apu . Quad core  amd bobcat , 2 or 4 gig of ram and similar Intel nice .
I have bought one recently, installed OpenBSD on it and I plan to use
it as a wireless router.

Ivan
>
> ---
> Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



-- 
Tangra Mega Rock: http://www.radiotangra.com



From jun at soum.co.jp  Sun Apr 17 08:11:30 2016
From: jun at soum.co.jp (Jun Ebihara)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 21:11:30 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [talk] Fwd: NetBSD machines at AsiaBSDCon 2016
In-Reply-To: <5712F254.30900@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <20160413.115526.1830182550003775.jun@soum.co.jp>
 <5712F254.30900@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20160417.211130.34624789042098168.jun@soum.co.jp>

From: George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com>
Subject: [talk] Fwd: NetBSD machines at AsiaBSDCon 2016
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 22:17:56 -0400

> more from Jun at AsiaBSDCon.

Thanx for forwarding!

> BSD Research and Japan NetBSD Users' Group members held booth
> at the AsiaBSDCon 2016  on Mar. 10-13 2016:
> more detail:
> https://github.com/ebijun/osc-demo/blob/master/2016/AsiaBSDCon2016.txt

I've got good sticker from Ike! I put it on my mobile 8port hub.
https://twitter.com/ebijun/status/708861939548426240

thanx a lot for kindly support to AsiaBSDCon2016.
--
Jun Ebihara



From kmsujit at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 09:30:56 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 19:00:56 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
Message-ID: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
review.

What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?

Regards,
Sujit K M
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From jesse at emptysquare.net  Sun Apr 17 10:07:35 2016
From: jesse at emptysquare.net (A. Jesse Jiryu Davis)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:07:35 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>

I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability counts"
and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most readable of
any programming language. The language also has disadvantages, of course,
but its clarity is unsurpassed.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
> review.
>
> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>
> Regards,
> Sujit K M
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Apr 17 10:13:52 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 10:13:52 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 04/17/16 09:30, Sujit K M wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
> review.
> 
> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?

My completely unscientific broad view is that most people around the
NYC*BUG scene will have a preference for either Python or Perl in that
particular layer of languages, with heavy doses of shell, C, etc.

Personally, I'd rather have to read the phone book in Python or Perl
than read one 15-line xterm page of Java.

g



From steve.b at osfda.org  Sun Apr 17 11:46:02 2016
From: steve.b at osfda.org (Steve)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 11:46:02 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>

Here's a great indicator; do a search on: C++ obfuscate
(we're all probably familiar with the C obfuscation challenge contests...)

Then do: javascript obfuscate

Repeat for: java obfuscate

Then try it with other languages of interest to you.

Finally look at: python obfuscate

And you'll see at the opening of the attempts described, the authors 
concede that it's hard to do.
I have spent decades dealing with compiled languages; python offers one 
the shortest time to implement an idea without getting mired in the 
resource specifics of a language like C(++). There's been a number of 
times I have set about doing a compiled program, and I get so distracted 
with some sideline prerequisite, for a moment I even forget what the 
original task I was dealing with was!

Now of course, python has overhead (in the age of 1TB disks and 8GB RAM 
machines, this is less of a consideration...);
it's lousy if you're going to do an iteration-intensive task.

But if you know from the outset that you won't go to that place, it's 
among the best in terms of readability.

Perl is incredibly powerful, but requires a very conscious effort to 
keep it readable.

python's thought out interface to libraries compiled in other languages 
also explains its following;
when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries that 
you can leverage off of...


On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu Davis wrote:
> I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability 
> counts" and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most 
> readable of any programming language. The language also has 
> disadvantages, of course, but its clarity is unsurpassed.
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com 
> <mailto:kmsujit at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I found python projects to be very good from an code review
>     perspective.
>     What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE
>     simpler
>     code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to
>     do code review.
>
>     What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>
>     Regards,
>     Sujit K M
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     talk mailing list
>     talk at lists.nycbug.org <mailto:talk at lists.nycbug.org>
>     http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 11:58:04 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 21:28:04 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with whole of the comments except for the one below.

> when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries that
> you can leverage off of...
>

You would find tonnes of packages in Python too. But Java for instance, In
my job, Where I deal
with services, I find people to be suffering from an IN/OUT Syndrome where
in all the work they
carry out is to map an input/configurations/database/configurations/partial
output and repeat.
This according to me is bad.

The other thing I find difficult with Java is that these tonnes of
libraries, have documentation which
is not worth a penny or useful. I mean does Apache for instance provide
performance issues as a
part of documentation. I find testers who also should have a part in
documentation, not doing this.
Un-Chartered waters I guess.



>
>
> On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu Davis wrote:
>
> I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability counts"
> and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most readable of
> any programming language. The language also has disadvantages, of course,
> but its clarity is unsurpassed.
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
>> review.
>>
>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sujit K M
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing listtalk at lists.nycbug.orghttp://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 12:43:25 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 12:43:25 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>
 <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwz3X+=sVUV6d=3GebDBZcXOhqiUHPyxvnFg0Rf+ZfT+UQ@mail.gmail.com>

It is not the fault of the language the lacking of documentation, it is a
lacking of the developers that use it. Java has (and has had since the
beginning) an inbuilt system called java-doc which generates markup in
comments into documentation.

https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/javadocs/api-2.6/org/apache/commons/lang/StringUtils.html

I have some interesting prospective on documentation:

1) Documentation in code is almost impossible to keep accurate. In many
cases most things you two to document internally like "clear box"
documentation, hurts readability and is so difficult to keep in sync with
actual code.

2) Who is the documentation for. Inside a method to authenticate with
oauth, what do you document the entire oauth protocol? What the application
is supposed to do?

3) People don't read anyway. I have written 2 books on Cassandra and Hive.
At my work we use both. In addition to the books I have ALSO field out our
internal wiki with site specific information.

How many RTFM questions do you think I continuously field? Shockingly no
1/15 people in our group and in ops have actually purchased one of my
books, 2 other people I have actually handed the books and they never read
them.

A few weeks back someone actually said to me, "I was trying to figure out
XYZ and I looked in your book and it was right there!"

What a REVELATION!

Do you really read docs? If people did, STACKOVERFLOW would not be a run
away success! No one reads anything they just want the star trek computer /
google to answer any question they dont know instantly, and they dont want
to have to care about how anything works.



On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I agree with whole of the comments except for the one below.
>
>> when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries that
>> you can leverage off of...
>>
>
> You would find tonnes of packages in Python too. But Java for instance, In
> my job, Where I deal
> with services, I find people to be suffering from an IN/OUT Syndrome where
> in all the work they
> carry out is to map an
> input/configurations/database/configurations/partial output and repeat.
> This according to me is bad.
>
> The other thing I find difficult with Java is that these tonnes of
> libraries, have documentation which
> is not worth a penny or useful. I mean does Apache for instance provide
> performance issues as a
> part of documentation. I find testers who also should have a part in
> documentation, not doing this.
> Un-Chartered waters I guess.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu Davis wrote:
>>
>> I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability
>> counts" and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most
>> readable of any programming language. The language also has disadvantages,
>> of course, but its clarity is unsurpassed.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
>>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
>>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
>>> review.
>>>
>>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Sujit K M
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing listtalk at lists.nycbug.orghttp://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sun Apr 17 13:47:59 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2016 13:47:59 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>
 <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwzASRVdtx-Me35T+0MviF9MGY=37ovmqKMcQ=DzYjs+Zw@mail.gmail.com>

Also what you think is "readable" also is mostly about what you are
familiar with. Many people claim lisp like languages are very readable
because there is only "one form". However I find it difficult to grok
code-as-data.

As it relates to the present conversation, I find languages with no
explicit types confusing.

Take this:
def delete(mylist, item):

VS.

void delete(List<Integer> item, Integer item)

Mostly because in larger code bases if there is no direct test calling the
method it may be hard to understand exactly what types the arguments are.

You could argue that Clojure has a nice solution here. They allow type
less coding, however typing can be applied as an optimization. Clojure also
makes documentation a 1st class citizen by making documentation part of the
language rather than some afterthought like text inside /* */ that may or
may not follow a specific format.

I generally hate reading other peoples code and doing code reviews. Provide
me clear interfaces and unit tests, I dont want to go over code like a CP 1
teacher.

Once someone deployed something that I code reviewed. It crashed and
burned, and when I got there case about it they said, "Well you reviewed
it!"
Like somehow me looking at something for 1 hour that took someone else 1
week to write was going to find the hidden bugs. I told him, I'm not going
to review any more, I'm not your crutch. You are just going to have that
won't fail.You are going to have to write unit tests or do manual testing
to find edge cases. If i spend all day review code and finding other
peoples bugs I wont have time for my work.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I agree with whole of the comments except for the one below.
>
>> when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries that
>> you can leverage off of...
>>
>
> You would find tonnes of packages in Python too. But Java for instance, In
> my job, Where I deal
> with services, I find people to be suffering from an IN/OUT Syndrome where
> in all the work they
> carry out is to map an
> input/configurations/database/configurations/partial output and repeat.
> This according to me is bad.
>
> The other thing I find difficult with Java is that these tonnes of
> libraries, have documentation which
> is not worth a penny or useful. I mean does Apache for instance provide
> performance issues as a
> part of documentation. I find testers who also should have a part in
> documentation, not doing this.
> Un-Chartered waters I guess.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu Davis wrote:
>>
>> I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability
>> counts" and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most
>> readable of any programming language. The language also has disadvantages,
>> of course, but its clarity is unsurpassed.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
>>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
>>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
>>> review.
>>>
>>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Sujit K M
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing listtalk at lists.nycbug.orghttp://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 05:16:09 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 14:46:09 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwzASRVdtx-Me35T+0MviF9MGY=37ovmqKMcQ=DzYjs+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>
 <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwzASRVdtx-Me35T+0MviF9MGY=37ovmqKMcQ=DzYjs+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNeqPGL-SDbGrrwpBmiyLDMMQ8YjjXrH9u5w6HhhKsCwW+g@mail.gmail.com>

Including both mails. I don't know whether it permits email courtesy. But I
wanted to reply to both your mails.

My general conclusion is the way you look at it. I am someone very new to
python < 1 year. I am much more
of a Java Guy. But my conclusion is, every resource has its own utility,
you can write test cases for your data
and more importantly code your tests, there is the un-chartered water. I
feel a test case is the most important.
But coding your test cases is not the way but write code using test cases
is what I have been taught with.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
 wrote:

> It is not the fault of the language the lacking of documentation, it is a
> lacking of the developers that use it. Java has (and has had since the
> beginning) an inbuilt system called java-doc which generates markup in
> comments into documentation.
>
>
> https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/javadocs/api-2.6/org/apache/commons/lang/StringUtils.html
>


Again something worthless of document. I have found StringUtils to be most
commonly implemented framework in any
product. Also Just blindly saying this is the reason this field is there or
values it can take is certainly not acceptable
to anyone. One looking at the Java doc should be able to get the crux of
the matter, I should be able to write a test case
with it. and also agree most people don't read the entire api and also
there is a lot of illiteracy among developers.


>
>
> I have some interesting prospective on documentation:
>
> 1) Documentation in code is almost impossible to keep accurate. In many
> cases most things you two to document internally like "clear box"
> documentation, hurts readability and is so difficult to keep in sync with
> actual code.
>

I would like to know when there is tester, a documentation person there why
cannot they look at what is being pushed
out to a large set of people some naive, some professional, some unethical.
Is it not a part of their duty. I for instance
have not seen any change in Generics that were introduced in Java 1.3 till
now and also there are a lot of deprecated
classes methods etc which are used by people. Infact there is way remove
compiler warnings for deprecated such.


>
> 2) Who is the documentation for. Inside a method to authenticate with
> oauth, what do you document the entire oauth protocol? What the application
> is supposed to do?
>

This is what I exactly want. I have seen tonnes of oauth classes in Java,
How many give a error code description for example or a future
processing message, say your email is locked for example. These are not yet
developed simply because there is no initiative from the
so called guru's of the language. I have worked on products that do this
exactly written in Java.


>
> 3) People don't read anyway. I have written 2 books on Cassandra and Hive.
> At my work we use both. In addition to the books I have ALSO field out our
> internal wiki with site specific information.
>
>
That is pathetic.


> Do you really read docs? If people did, STACKOVERFLOW would not be a run
> away success! No one reads anything they just want the star trek computer /
> google to answer any question they dont know instantly, and they dont want
> to have to care about how anything works.
>
>
Very sad for these people living by the sword is what I call this.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Also what you think is "readable" also is mostly about what you are
> familiar with. Many people claim lisp like languages are very readable
> because there is only "one form". However I find it difficult to grok
> code-as-data.
>
> As it relates to the present conversation, I find languages with no
> explicit types confusing.
>
> Take this:
> def delete(mylist, item):
>

I find it better since I don't have to know mylist implementation


>
> VS.
>
> void delete(List<Integer> item, Integer item)
>

You are stuck with List/ArrayList/Concurrent Access Violations beneath this.


>
> Mostly because in larger code bases if there is no direct test calling the
> method it may be hard to understand exactly what types the arguments are.
>
> You could argue that Clojure has a nice solution here. They allow type
> less coding, however typing can be applied as an optimization. Clojure
> also makes documentation a 1st class citizen by making documentation part
> of the language rather than some afterthought like text inside /* */ that
> may or may not follow a specific format.
>
> I generally hate reading other peoples code and doing code reviews.
> Provide me clear interfaces and unit tests, I dont want to go over code
> like a CP 1 teacher.
>

> Once someone deployed something that I code reviewed. It crashed and
> burned, and when I got there case about it they said, "Well you reviewed
> it!"
> Like somehow me looking at something for 1 hour that took someone else 1
> week to write was going to find the hidden bugs. I told him, I'm not going
> to review any more, I'm not your crutch. You are just going to have that
> won't fail.You are going to have to write unit tests or do manual testing
> to find edge cases. If i spend all day review code and finding other
> peoples bugs I wont have time for my work.
>

I agree with you. But as it Turns out I Do this quite a lot, because some
one else wants it. I just posted to mailing list to know what is the
reason, I find reviewing Python Easy.


>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree with whole of the comments except for the one below.
>>
>>> when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries that
>>> you can leverage off of...
>>>
>>
>> You would find tonnes of packages in Python too. But Java for instance,
>> In my job, Where I deal
>> with services, I find people to be suffering from an IN/OUT Syndrome
>> where in all the work they
>> carry out is to map an
>> input/configurations/database/configurations/partial output and repeat.
>> This according to me is bad.
>>
>> The other thing I find difficult with Java is that these tonnes of
>> libraries, have documentation which
>> is not worth a penny or useful. I mean does Apache for instance provide
>> performance issues as a
>> part of documentation. I find testers who also should have a part in
>> documentation, not doing this.
>> Un-Chartered waters I guess.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu Davis wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability
>>> counts" and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most
>>> readable of any programming language. The language also has disadvantages,
>>> of course, but its clarity is unsurpassed.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
>>>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE
>>>> simpler
>>>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do
>>>> code review.
>>>>
>>>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sujit K M
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing list
>>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing listtalk at lists.nycbug.orghttp://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
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From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Mon Apr 18 10:06:12 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:06:12 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNeqPGL-SDbGrrwpBmiyLDMMQ8YjjXrH9u5w6HhhKsCwW+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFRUCtaxJCANpgOFxy7fkWgd_Qhi-_DtBTdkd7KjFz514Ks7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5713AFBA.5030702@osfda.org>
 <CA+6mNep7f+_v7GtDeA+k9uL+7ARx1_JtrjFk0_qaFLVWNmqiBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwzASRVdtx-Me35T+0MviF9MGY=37ovmqKMcQ=DzYjs+Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqPGL-SDbGrrwpBmiyLDMMQ8YjjXrH9u5w6HhhKsCwW+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwxAquSnEyb1c2jiBkk=c=ySf_CfLu-sEZmHK89ooBcx3g@mail.gmail.com>

You are stuck with List/ArrayList/Concurrent Access Violations beneath this.

List vs ArrayList should not matter. If the developer uses the generic type
it should imply to the reader that the specific type does not matter.
ArrayList vs Vector. Any implementation should work the same way..***

Concurrent Access Violations

Now this is interesting. I feel as if we were talking recently on list as
to does some resolv.conf type library in mac or BSD is/was thread safe. I
do agree that thread safety is probably the largest case of "implied"
across the board.

Now here be the dragons. Threading bugs are very subtle, you have to assume
the user understand happens-before, happens-after, atomicity, readers see
writes, keywords like volatile. This is one of the harder bits to document.
If the user does not know the memory model of the application the
programmer would have to document it everywhere which would be annoying. .
IE if you are doing servlet programming you should know that there are
multiple threads executing on the same class so using class variables in
the request scope is wrong. You should not have to mark every class
variable as //DONT USE IN REQUEST SCOPE.

I am no python guru but I assume these same issues exist. You *the user of
the documentation* have to know if this is a copy-on-write list etc. Just
because changing it will never throw ConcurrentModifiicationException does
not mean your code is safe/better. Arguably it could be worse, like a user
is modifying a list another component assumes is a fixed size.

I actually ask what a ConcurrentModificationException is on interviews.
This shows if the developer has ever done any meaningful concurrent
programming. Also there is no one correct answer. The simple answer is use
a synchronized list, but that is the most performance heavy, maybe a mutex
or a shared lock is the right answer, but maybe a concurrent list is the
answer, but that means if can change as you are iterating it, what does
that mean for downstream code?




On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 5:16 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> Including both mails. I don't know whether it permits email courtesy. But
> I wanted to reply to both your mails.
>
> My general conclusion is the way you look at it. I am someone very new to
> python < 1 year. I am much more
> of a Java Guy. But my conclusion is, every resource has its own utility,
> you can write test cases for your data
> and more importantly code your tests, there is the un-chartered water. I
> feel a test case is the most important.
> But coding your test cases is not the way but write code using test cases
> is what I have been taught with.
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>
>> It is not the fault of the language the lacking of documentation, it is a
>> lacking of the developers that use it. Java has (and has had since the
>> beginning) an inbuilt system called java-doc which generates markup in
>> comments into documentation.
>>
>>
>> https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/javadocs/api-2.6/org/apache/commons/lang/StringUtils.html
>>
>
>
> Again something worthless of document. I have found StringUtils to be most
> commonly implemented framework in any
> product. Also Just blindly saying this is the reason this field is there
> or values it can take is certainly not acceptable
> to anyone. One looking at the Java doc should be able to get the crux of
> the matter, I should be able to write a test case
> with it. and also agree most people don't read the entire api and also
> there is a lot of illiteracy among developers.
>
>
>>
>>
>> I have some interesting prospective on documentation:
>>
>> 1) Documentation in code is almost impossible to keep accurate. In many
>> cases most things you two to document internally like "clear box"
>> documentation, hurts readability and is so difficult to keep in sync with
>> actual code.
>>
>
> I would like to know when there is tester, a documentation person there
> why cannot they look at what is being pushed
> out to a large set of people some naive, some professional, some
> unethical. Is it not a part of their duty. I for instance
> have not seen any change in Generics that were introduced in Java 1.3 till
> now and also there are a lot of deprecated
> classes methods etc which are used by people. Infact there is way remove
> compiler warnings for deprecated such.
>
>
>>
>> 2) Who is the documentation for. Inside a method to authenticate with
>> oauth, what do you document the entire oauth protocol? What the application
>> is supposed to do?
>>
>
> This is what I exactly want. I have seen tonnes of oauth classes in Java,
> How many give a error code description for example or a future
> processing message, say your email is locked for example. These are not
> yet developed simply because there is no initiative from the
> so called guru's of the language. I have worked on products that do this
> exactly written in Java.
>
>
>>
>> 3) People don't read anyway. I have written 2 books on Cassandra and
>> Hive. At my work we use both. In addition to the books I have ALSO field
>> out our internal wiki with site specific information.
>>
>>
> That is pathetic.
>
>
>> Do you really read docs? If people did, STACKOVERFLOW would not be a run
>> away success! No one reads anything they just want the star trek computer /
>> google to answer any question they dont know instantly, and they dont want
>> to have to care about how anything works.
>>
>>
> Very sad for these people living by the sword is what I call this.
>
> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Also what you think is "readable" also is mostly about what you are
>> familiar with. Many people claim lisp like languages are very readable
>> because there is only "one form". However I find it difficult to grok
>> code-as-data.
>>
>> As it relates to the present conversation, I find languages with no
>> explicit types confusing.
>>
>> Take this:
>> def delete(mylist, item):
>>
>
> I find it better since I don't have to know mylist implementation
>
>
>>
>> VS.
>>
>> void delete(List<Integer> item, Integer item)
>>
>
> You are stuck with List/ArrayList/Concurrent Access Violations beneath
> this.
>
>
>>
>> Mostly because in larger code bases if there is no direct test calling
>> the method it may be hard to understand exactly what types the arguments
>> are.
>>
>> You could argue that Clojure has a nice solution here. They allow type
>> less coding, however typing can be applied as an optimization. Clojure
>> also makes documentation a 1st class citizen by making documentation part
>> of the language rather than some afterthought like text inside /* */ that
>> may or may not follow a specific format.
>>
>> I generally hate reading other peoples code and doing code reviews.
>> Provide me clear interfaces and unit tests, I dont want to go over code
>> like a CP 1 teacher.
>>
>
>> Once someone deployed something that I code reviewed. It crashed and
>> burned, and when I got there case about it they said, "Well you reviewed
>> it!"
>> Like somehow me looking at something for 1 hour that took someone else 1
>> week to write was going to find the hidden bugs. I told him, I'm not going
>> to review any more, I'm not your crutch. You are just going to have that
>> won't fail.You are going to have to write unit tests or do manual testing
>> to find edge cases. If i spend all day review code and finding other
>> peoples bugs I wont have time for my work.
>>
>
> I agree with you. But as it Turns out I Do this quite a lot, because some
> one else wants it. I just posted to mailing list to know what is the
> reason, I find reviewing Python Easy.
>
>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I agree with whole of the comments except for the one below.
>>>
>>>> when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries that
>>>> you can leverage off of...
>>>>
>>>
>>> You would find tonnes of packages in Python too. But Java for instance,
>>> In my job, Where I deal
>>> with services, I find people to be suffering from an IN/OUT Syndrome
>>> where in all the work they
>>> carry out is to map an
>>> input/configurations/database/configurations/partial output and repeat.
>>> This according to me is bad.
>>>
>>> The other thing I find difficult with Java is that these tonnes of
>>> libraries, have documentation which
>>> is not worth a penny or useful. I mean does Apache for instance provide
>>> performance issues as a
>>> part of documentation. I find testers who also should have a part in
>>> documentation, not doing this.
>>> Un-Chartered waters I guess.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu Davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree ? Python is designed with the philosophy that "readability
>>>> counts" and it is successful at that. Python code is some of the most
>>>> readable of any programming language. The language also has disadvantages,
>>>> of course, but its clarity is unsurpassed.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review
>>>>> perspective.
>>>>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE
>>>>> simpler
>>>>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do
>>>>> code review.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Sujit K M
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing listtalk at lists.nycbug.orghttp://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing list
>>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Apr 19 14:01:17 2016
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:01:17 -0700
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>



On 04/17/2016 07:13 AM, George Rosamond wrote:
> On 04/17/16 09:30, Sujit K M wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
>> review.
>>
>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>
> My completely unscientific broad view is that most people around the
> NYC*BUG scene will have a preference for either Python or Perl in that
> particular layer of languages, with heavy doses of shell, C, etc.
>
> Personally, I'd rather have to read the phone book in Python or Perl
> than read one 15-line xterm page of Java.
>

heh - so i think my new job title is going to officially become Java JRE 
garbage collection wizard...or something like that.  there are some 
really really neat things about java in terms of analysis of the JVM - 
but i'll be damned if i can ever *really* grok wtf is up with GC on java :)

-pete


-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Tue Apr 19 14:54:39 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 14:54:39 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>

if (running default options)
    try concurrentMarkSweep | G1

if (still having problems)
  application not good fit for auto gc | buy more servers

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/17/2016 07:13 AM, George Rosamond wrote:
>
>> On 04/17/16 09:30, Sujit K M wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I found python projects to be very good from an code review perspective.
>>> What I found is Python Language makes it simple to without an IDE simpler
>>> code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most difficult to do code
>>> review.
>>>
>>> What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my hallucinations?
>>>
>>
>> My completely unscientific broad view is that most people around the
>> NYC*BUG scene will have a preference for either Python or Perl in that
>> particular layer of languages, with heavy doses of shell, C, etc.
>>
>> Personally, I'd rather have to read the phone book in Python or Perl
>> than read one 15-line xterm page of Java.
>>
>>
> heh - so i think my new job title is going to officially become Java JRE
> garbage collection wizard...or something like that.  there are some really
> really neat things about java in terms of analysis of the JVM - but i'll be
> damned if i can ever *really* grok wtf is up with GC on java :)
>
> -pete
>
>
> --
> Pete Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Apr 19 16:20:02 2016
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:20:02 -0700
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>



On 04/19/2016 11:54 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
> if (running default options)
>     try concurrentMarkSweep | G1
>
> if (still having problems)
>   application not good fit for auto gc | buy more servers

heh - don't forget to sprinkle in a liberal amount of gc-debug flags to 
your java .properties file as well so you can *really* quantify how 
mystifying the GC really is :^)

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Apr 20 08:34:14 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:34:14 -0400
Subject: [talk] EuroBSDCon
Message-ID: <57177746.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>

We usually add it to announce@, but thought I'd bring it up here.
EuroBSDCon CFP is out:

https://2016.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-papers/

Anyone submitting or considering?

g



From kmsujit at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 11:08:09 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 20:38:09 +0530
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3 AMD x64
Message-ID: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I am facing strange issues with 10.3 on AMD x64.
           1. WPA SUPPLICANT Doesn't seem to work, though on install
               or while administrating the system it does find the network.
               but gives errors, while wpa_supplicant command as the
               Authentication timeout.
            2. This is with the boot/if grub is installed no Boot Loader is
                installed in FreeBSD 10.3 Install.
Regards,
Sujit K M
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From _ at thomaslevine.com  Wed Apr 20 11:17:46 2016
From: _ at thomaslevine.com (Thomas Levine)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:17:46 +0000
Subject: [talk] EuroBSDCon
In-Reply-To: <57177746.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <57177746.2020101@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20160420151746.GB23043@x220>

I am thinking about submitting a talk on Urchin and portable shell.

But first I have to decide whether I'm going to EuroBSDCon or slcon3;
they are on the same days.
http://suckless.org/conference/

Peer pressure directing me to one conference or the other is welcome.

On 20 Apr 08:34, George Rosamond wrote:
> We usually add it to announce@, but thought I'd bring it up here.
> EuroBSDCon CFP is out:
> 
> https://2016.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-papers/
> 
> Anyone submitting or considering?
> 
> g
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From mark.saad at ymail.com  Wed Apr 20 18:20:04 2016
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:20:04 -0400
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3 AMD x64
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <64BA1F0E-ABCA-4D4E-9096-7AF16D539364@ymail.com>


> On Apr 20, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I am facing strange issues with 10.3 on AMD x64.
>            1. WPA SUPPLICANT Doesn't seem to work, though on install
>                or while administrating the system it does find the network.
>                but gives errors, while wpa_supplicant command as the 
>                Authentication timeout.
>             2. This is with the boot/if grub is installed no Boot Loader is 
>                 installed in FreeBSD 10.3 Install.
> Regards,
> Sujit K M
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


Sujit 
  Tell us more about your setup ? What card / driver ? The wpa_supplicant code can depend on your nic's  driver iirc. I say this as in the past I had a wifi nic go bad* and it went haywire with authentication and listing ap's . 

*by bad: I had opened my dell to add ram and a new hd, in the process I handled the wifi card and probably zapped it with a bit of static electricity.  Not enough for me to feel was the right amount to kill it .  Swapping in a new nic solved this issue . Iirc it was an ath  nic . 

---
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com


From kmsujit at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 21:50:02 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:20:02 +0530
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3 AMD x64
In-Reply-To: <64BA1F0E-ABCA-4D4E-9096-7AF16D539364@ymail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <64BA1F0E-ABCA-4D4E-9096-7AF16D539364@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNeqmyHDMCKmMkynxQkLVzyk5BOxWtUn7RiqsNcbwwwJefQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

My laptop crashed. Can't get it to boot. Would let you know when it is
fixed.
Out of my memory the chipset is Qualcomm Atheros 9595.
Regards,
Sujit K M

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:

>
> > On Apr 20, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I am facing strange issues with 10.3 on AMD x64.
> >            1. WPA SUPPLICANT Doesn't seem to work, though on install
> >                or while administrating the system it does find the
> network.
> >                but gives errors, while wpa_supplicant command as the
> >                Authentication timeout.
> >             2. This is with the boot/if grub is installed no Boot Loader
> is
> >                 installed in FreeBSD 10.3 Install.
> > Regards,
> > Sujit K M
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> Sujit
>   Tell us more about your setup ? What card / driver ? The wpa_supplicant
> code can depend on your nic's  driver iirc. I say this as in the past I had
> a wifi nic go bad* and it went haywire with authentication and listing ap's
> .
>
> *by bad: I had opened my dell to add ram and a new hd, in the process I
> handled the wifi card and probably zapped it with a bit of static
> electricity.  Not enough for me to feel was the right amount to kill it .
> Swapping in a new nic solved this issue . Iirc it was an ath  nic .
>
> ---
> Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com
>
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Apr 20 21:53:59 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:53:59 -0400
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3 AMD x64
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNeqmyHDMCKmMkynxQkLVzyk5BOxWtUn7RiqsNcbwwwJefQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <64BA1F0E-ABCA-4D4E-9096-7AF16D539364@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqmyHDMCKmMkynxQkLVzyk5BOxWtUn7RiqsNcbwwwJefQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <571832B7.5070004@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 04/20/16 21:50, Sujit K M wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> My laptop crashed. Can't get it to boot. Would let you know when it is
> fixed.
> Out of my memory the chipset is Qualcomm Atheros 9595.
> Regards,
> Sujit K M
> 
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am facing strange issues with 10.3 on AMD x64.
>>>            1. WPA SUPPLICANT Doesn't seem to work, though on install
>>>                or while administrating the system it does find the
>> network.
>>>                but gives errors, while wpa_supplicant command as the
>>>                Authentication timeout.
>>>             2. This is with the boot/if grub is installed no Boot Loader
>> is
>>>                 installed in FreeBSD 10.3 Install.
>>> Regards,
>>> Sujit K M
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> Sujit
>>   Tell us more about your setup ? What card / driver ? The wpa_supplicant
>> code can depend on your nic's  driver iirc. I say this as in the past I had
>> a wifi nic go bad* and it went haywire with authentication and listing ap's

I'm a bit confused by the cause and effect here.

If the issue was solely #1, I would say look at the wpa_supplicant
syntax, or post here.

Are you saying the wireless caused the crash?  Then why is grub
relevant?  Or did I miss something?

g



From kmsujit at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 23:38:06 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:08:06 +0530
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3 AMD x64
In-Reply-To: <571832B7.5070004@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <64BA1F0E-ABCA-4D4E-9096-7AF16D539364@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqmyHDMCKmMkynxQkLVzyk5BOxWtUn7RiqsNcbwwwJefQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <571832B7.5070004@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNepiJHFv_yiuUBJYfOLgho4yjfP4AvcQCjZJyW_OcoCvPw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi George,

The laptop crashed due to some unknown reason.
       But #1, I have used the correct syntax from the FreeBSD Handbook.
       #2 is an issue that I faced once I had to move back to Linux and try
       and reinstall FreeBSD v 10.3.

Regards,
Sujit K M

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 7:23 AM, George Rosamond <
george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:

> On 04/20/16 21:50, Sujit K M wrote:
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > My laptop crashed. Can't get it to boot. Would let you know when it is
> > fixed.
> > Out of my memory the chipset is Qualcomm Atheros 9595.
> > Regards,
> > Sujit K M
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> I am facing strange issues with 10.3 on AMD x64.
> >>>            1. WPA SUPPLICANT Doesn't seem to work, though on install
> >>>                or while administrating the system it does find the
> >> network.
> >>>                but gives errors, while wpa_supplicant command as the
> >>>                Authentication timeout.
> >>>             2. This is with the boot/if grub is installed no Boot
> Loader
> >> is
> >>>                 installed in FreeBSD 10.3 Install.
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Sujit K M
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> talk mailing list
> >>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> >>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >>
> >> Sujit
> >>   Tell us more about your setup ? What card / driver ? The
> wpa_supplicant
> >> code can depend on your nic's  driver iirc. I say this as in the past I
> had
> >> a wifi nic go bad* and it went haywire with authentication and listing
> ap's
>
> I'm a bit confused by the cause and effect here.
>
> If the issue was solely #1, I would say look at the wpa_supplicant
> syntax, or post here.
>
> Are you saying the wireless caused the crash?  Then why is grub
> relevant?  Or did I miss something?
>
> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Wed Apr 20 23:41:15 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:11:15 +0530
Subject: [talk] FreeBSD 10.3 AMD x64
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNepiJHFv_yiuUBJYfOLgho4yjfP4AvcQCjZJyW_OcoCvPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepF9MivDaCCSJ-w6GBPJbaPh58mzep6BqSO-YLtpze25Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <64BA1F0E-ABCA-4D4E-9096-7AF16D539364@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqmyHDMCKmMkynxQkLVzyk5BOxWtUn7RiqsNcbwwwJefQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <571832B7.5070004@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <CA+6mNepiJHFv_yiuUBJYfOLgho4yjfP4AvcQCjZJyW_OcoCvPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNer0toYHees3KkikkbXNxZvfZf3vPije1cdP6GBMorvbrg@mail.gmail.com>

The laptop crashed due to some unknown reason.
>        But #1, I have used the correct syntax from the FreeBSD Handbook.
>        #2 is an issue that I faced once I had to move back to Linux and try
>        and reinstall FreeBSD v 10.3.
>
>
By the way for #1 I saw the network on wifimgr, generated the
wpa_supplicant.conf.
Still issue persisted.
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From venture37 at geeklan.co.uk  Fri Apr 22 13:07:52 2016
From: venture37 at geeklan.co.uk (Sevan)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:07:52 +0100
Subject: [talk] A blog post on the BSD family of operating systems
Message-ID: <A2574341-211E-4B37-A088-2E2E16A44227@geeklan.co.uk>

Hello,
I put together a blog post to cover a talk I gave at the British
Computing Society last month about why *BSD would be an appropriate
choice in a hardware project to a group of open source hardware enthusiasts.


https://www.geeklan.co.uk/?p=2061

George suggested I should forward the link here. Apparently there are
folks who are into this sort of thing. :)


Sevan
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Apr 22 14:31:16 2016
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 14:31:16 -0400
Subject: [talk] A blog post on the BSD family of operating systems
In-Reply-To: <A2574341-211E-4B37-A088-2E2E16A44227@geeklan.co.uk>
References: <A2574341-211E-4B37-A088-2E2E16A44227@geeklan.co.uk>
Message-ID: <571A6DF4.4080708@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 04/22/16 13:07, Sevan wrote:
> Hello,
> I put together a blog post to cover a talk I gave at the British
> Computing Society last month about why *BSD would be an appropriate
> choice in a hardware project to a group of open source hardware enthusiasts.
> 
> 
> https://www.geeklan.co.uk/?p=2061
> 
> George suggested I should forward the link here. Apparently there are
> folks who are into this sort of thing. :)

No.  Wrong list.  Completely irrelevant!

Seriously, it's a nice clear overview that I tend to think isn't usually
well-articulated.

Sevan: you should really integrate the Kirk copycenter quote :)

g



From briancoca+nycbug at gmail.com  Tue Apr 26 06:56:04 2016
From: briancoca+nycbug at gmail.com (Brian Coca)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 06:56:04 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>

As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Wed Apr 27 16:13:58 2016
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:13:58 -0700
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>



On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
>
>

and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more 
memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for 
latency sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff 
like storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.

i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when 
they noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. 
they kept adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once 
we turned on debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that 
due to the huge heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to 
complete and stopping to world in the process.  good times :)

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Wed Apr 27 18:35:54 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 18:35:54 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>

Correct. The Java garbage collections use system threads to navigate mark
the objects in the heap. If you can not finish the sweep fast enough you
get a pause.

I never set a JVM higher than 12 GB heap.

If you really need large off heap structures you can use one of several off
heap libraries http://www.mapdb.org/.

Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot more
objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java languages. :)

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
>
>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
>>
>>
>>
> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for latency
> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
>
> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when they
> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they kept
> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we turned on
> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the huge
> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and stopping to
> world in the process.  good times :)
>
> -pete
>
> --
> Pete Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 01:41:07 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 11:11:07 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>

> Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot more
> objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java languages. :)

Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
on the JVM.
How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space the JVM
needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?

I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
compiled languages
should in reality occupy more space.

>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
>>>
>>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
>>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
>>>
>>>
>>
>> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
>> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for latency
>> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
>> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
>>
>> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when they
>> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they kept
>> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we turned on
>> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the huge
>> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and stopping to
>> world in the process.  good times :)
>>
>> -pete
>>
>> --
>> Pete Wright
>> pete at nomadlogic.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 08:00:35 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:00:35 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>

The java class file format is well documented. Basically one pointer to the
runtime class of the object followed by the object.

If a given language is reference counted each object has one extra atomic
field to count references.

If a given language does not have objects but instead uses maps (that
repeat the fields evey instance) that is going to be a more large object in
memory.

While i am not a large expert in this i believe javas approach is like a c
struct with the exception the first word size bytes are a pointer to the
type of class so that instances can be runtime inspected.

Java also has a very clever system for compressing 64 bit pointers.. see
compressedOOPs option. I have not heard much of this optimization anywhere
else.

On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot more
> > objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java languages.
> :)
>
> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
> on the JVM.
> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space the
> JVM
> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>
> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
> compiled languages
> should in reality occupy more space.
>
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
> >>>
> >>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
> >>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
> >> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for
> latency
> >> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
> >> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
> >>
> >> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when
> they
> >> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they
> kept
> >> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we
> turned on
> >> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the
> huge
> >> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and
> stopping to
> >> world in the process.  good times :)
> >>
> >> -pete
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pete Wright
> >> pete at nomadlogic.org <javascript:;>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
usual.
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 08:05:20 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:35:20 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNerczDFouFFWf4aZOKZPCAa-+MbRgXF79ULfS+jLFs8jzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:
> The java class file format is well documented. Basically one pointer to the
> runtime class of the object followed by the object.

So you mean to say Class file size on the filesystem is the Object Size.

>
> If a given language is reference counted each object has one extra atomic
> field to count references.

So you mean to say garbage collection.

>
> If a given language does not have objects but instead uses maps (that repeat
> the fields evey instance) that is going to be a more large object in memory.

Big data I guess.

>
> While i am not a large expert in this i believe javas approach is like a c
> struct with the exception the first word size bytes are a pointer to the
> type of class so that instances can be runtime inspected.
>
> Java also has a very clever system for compressing 64 bit pointers.. see
> compressedOOPs option. I have not heard much of this optimization anywhere
> else.

Zlib I guess.

>
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot
>> > more
>> > objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java languages.
>> > :)
>>
>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>> on the JVM.
>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space the
>> JVM
>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>>
>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
>> compiled languages
>> should in reality occupy more space.
>>
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
>> >>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
>> >> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for
>> >> latency
>> >> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
>> >> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
>> >>
>> >> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when
>> >> they
>> >> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they
>> >> kept
>> >> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we
>> >> turned on
>> >> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the
>> >> huge
>> >> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and
>> >> stopping to
>> >> world in the process.  good times :)
>> >>
>> >> -pete
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Pete Wright
>> >> pete at nomadlogic.org
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> talk mailing list
>> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
> usual.



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 08:06:27 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:06:27 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>

https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se7/html/jvms-4.html
http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077408/core-java/sizeof-for-java.html
On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:

> The java class file format is well documented. Basically one pointer to
> the runtime class of the object followed by the object.
>
> If a given language is reference counted each object has one extra atomic
> field to count references.
>
> If a given language does not have objects but instead uses maps (that
> repeat the fields evey instance) that is going to be a more large object in
> memory.
>
> While i am not a large expert in this i believe javas approach is like a c
> struct with the exception the first word size bytes are a pointer to the
> type of class so that instances can be runtime inspected.
>
> Java also has a very clever system for compressing 64 bit pointers.. see
> compressedOOPs option. I have not heard much of this optimization anywhere
> else.
>
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kmsujit at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> > Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot
>> more
>> > objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java languages.
>> :)
>>
>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>> on the JVM.
>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space the
>> JVM
>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>>
>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
>> compiled languages
>> should in reality occupy more space.
>>
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
>> >>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
>> >> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for
>> latency
>> >> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
>> >> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
>> >>
>> >> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when
>> they
>> >> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they
>> kept
>> >> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we
>> turned on
>> >> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the
>> huge
>> >> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and
>> stopping to
>> >> world in the process.  good times :)
>> >>
>> >> -pete
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Pete Wright
>> >> pete at nomadlogic.org
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> talk mailing list
>> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
> usual.
>


-- 
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usual.
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From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 08:09:52 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 08:09:52 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNerczDFouFFWf4aZOKZPCAa-+MbRgXF79ULfS+jLFs8jzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNerczDFouFFWf4aZOKZPCAa-+MbRgXF79ULfS+jLFs8jzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwyvSOJf0R5W_ocDoBVbKekA=Fd3tqJYSbQn10y0vdvFAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > The java class file format is well documented. Basically one pointer to
> the
> > runtime class of the object followed by the object.
>
> So you mean to say Class file size on the filesystem is the Object Size.
>
> >
> > If a given language is reference counted each object has one extra atomic
> > field to count references.
>
> So you mean to say garbage collection.
>
> >
> > If a given language does not have objects but instead uses maps (that
> repeat
> > the fields evey instance) that is going to be a more large object in
> memory.
>
> Big data I guess.
>
> >
> > While i am not a large expert in this i believe javas approach is like a
> c
> > struct with the exception the first word size bytes are a pointer to the
> > type of class so that instances can be runtime inspected.
> >
> > Java also has a very clever system for compressing 64 bit pointers.. see
> > compressedOOPs option. I have not heard much of this optimization
> anywhere
> > else.
>
> Zlib I guess.
>
> >
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot
> >> > more
> >> > objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java
> languages.
> >> > :)
> >>
> >> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
> >> on the JVM.
> >> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space the
> >> JVM
> >> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
> >>
> >> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
> >> compiled languages
> >> should in reality occupy more space.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org
> <javascript:;>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did
> not
> >> >>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
> >> >> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for
> >> >> latency
> >> >> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
> >> >> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
> >> >>
> >> >> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when
> >> >> they
> >> >> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they
> >> >> kept
> >> >> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we
> >> >> turned on
> >> >> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the
> >> >> huge
> >> >> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and
> >> >> stopping to
> >> >> world in the process.  good times :)
> >> >>
> >> >> -pete
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Pete Wright
> >> >> pete at nomadlogic.org <javascript:;>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> talk mailing list
> >> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> >> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > talk mailing list
> >> > talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> >> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check
> than
> > usual.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

No i am not talking using zlib on large byte arrays. What compressedOOps
does is use something like a varint pointer between objects so that not
every object pointer is 64 bits on a 64 bit platform.


-- 
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 08:11:53 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:41:53 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:
> https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se7/html/jvms-4.html

I still guess the classfile size on hard disk.

> http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077408/core-java/sizeof-for-java.html

No Size of In Java Is what I see in this document.

But let me take a guess, Every programmer has to calculate his object
size an then
see whether it is actually equal to file size on his disk. Or better
still add a commit hook
to check and do a basic primitive validation.

> On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The java class file format is well documented. Basically one pointer to
>> the runtime class of the object followed by the object.
>>
>> If a given language is reference counted each object has one extra atomic
>> field to count references.
>>
>> If a given language does not have objects but instead uses maps (that
>> repeat the fields evey instance) that is going to be a more large object in
>> memory.
>>
>> While i am not a large expert in this i believe javas approach is like a c
>> struct with the exception the first word size bytes are a pointer to the
>> type of class so that instances can be runtime inspected.
>>
>> Java also has a very clever system for compressing 64 bit pointers.. see
>> compressedOOPs option. I have not heard much of this optimization anywhere
>> else.
>>
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Anecdotal. Keep in mind I have tested this and you can create 'a lot
>>> > more
>>> > objects' given the same RAM than many other popular non java languages.
>>> > :)
>>>
>>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>>> on the JVM.
>>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space the
>>> JVM
>>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>>>
>>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
>>> compiled languages
>>> should in reality occupy more space.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 04/26/2016 03:56 AM, Brian Coca wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As many a Java dev has told me: "the only problem is that you did not
>>> >>> install enough RAM, just add it, it's cheap!"
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> and therein is the issue - in practice i've found that by adding more
>>> >> memory to a JVM heap will tend to worsen GC pauses, especially for
>>> >> latency
>>> >> sensitive operations.  then you get to do all sorts of fun stuff like
>>> >> storing cached objects outside of the JVM or lord knows what.
>>> >>
>>> >> i spent about 3 months trying to help a team tune their java app when
>>> >> they
>>> >> noticed it would periodically show latencies of several seconds. they
>>> >> kept
>>> >> adding more memory to the heap, which made things worse.  once we
>>> >> turned on
>>> >> debugging metrics for GC it became painfully apparent that due to the
>>> >> huge
>>> >> heap that they had allocated GC was taking ages to complete and
>>> >> stopping to
>>> >> world in the process.  good times :)
>>> >>
>>> >> -pete
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Pete Wright
>>> >> pete at nomadlogic.org
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> talk mailing list
>>> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > talk mailing list
>>> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
>> usual.
>
>
>
> --
> Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
> usual.



From kmsujit at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 10:04:58 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:34:58 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:
> "No Size of In Java Is what I see in this document.
>
> But let me take a guess, Every programmer has to calculate his object
> size an then
> see whether it is actually equal to file size on his disk. Or better
> still add a commit hook
> to check and do a basic primitive validation."
>
> It is rather easy to pick something declare you do not like it, and then
> cherry pick all the things "wrong" with it.

You seem to be claiming a wizard, which I have no way of knowing or wanting.

Before you pass comment please answer the below questions that I had asked
in a very polite tone. Below Questions

>> >>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>> >>> on the JVM.
>> >>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space
>> >>> the
>> >>> JVM
>> >>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
>> >>> compiled languages
>> >>> should in reality occupy more space.



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 10:23:05 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:23:05 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwxqKy=ytTm2qE5mfgCossAgKc0wtZ+GoqZJk3rWcHArRg@mail.gmail.com>

Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>> >>> on the JVM.

You can count the size of objects in memory. Check the first link:

http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077408/core-java/sizeof-for-java.html

You can also just ask the Java VM via remote management how much heap is
being used.
http://wiki.genexus.com/commwiki/servlet/wiki?6340,Monitoring+Memory+Management+with+JMX

As the article points out the calculation is not as simple as c++ sizeof,
because the VM is always doing things there is overhead etc.

I have taken my laptop and instantiated a linked list. I added objects to a
LinkedList until the system ran out of memory. In other words construct
1000000 objects sample, construct 2000000 objects sample. You can
approximate the answer.

I dont want to name names and get people upset that I am saying Java is
better than $there_fav_language_x , But  interpreted languages that store
objects as maps internally suffer in this regard.

JIT optimizes method and code branches based on heuristics. The class
definitions and size of an instance in memory are fixed and I do not
believe JIT optimizes them in any way.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > "No Size of In Java Is what I see in this document.
> >
> > But let me take a guess, Every programmer has to calculate his object
> > size an then
> > see whether it is actually equal to file size on his disk. Or better
> > still add a commit hook
> > to check and do a basic primitive validation."
> >
> > It is rather easy to pick something declare you do not like it, and then
> > cherry pick all the things "wrong" with it.
>
> You seem to be claiming a wizard, which I have no way of knowing or
> wanting.
>
> Before you pass comment please answer the below questions that I had asked
> in a very polite tone. Below Questions
>
> >> >>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object
> size
> >> >>> on the JVM.
> >> >>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> JVM
> >> >>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
> >> >>> compiled languages
> >> >>> should in reality occupy more space.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 10:34:44 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:04:44 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwxqKy=ytTm2qE5mfgCossAgKc0wtZ+GoqZJk3rWcHArRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxqKy=ytTm2qE5mfgCossAgKc0wtZ+GoqZJk3rWcHArRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNepttXyv+ehNegmZT4XcAqRhpjY-MEoXdd8UG18VkXg8pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 7:53 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>>> >>> on the JVM.
>
> You can count the size of objects in memory. Check the first link:

It is an overhead to performance, we are looking at production systems.

I want an exact reply to each of these question. In terms of the exact
object ratio.
For example, an array list what is the object size at run time.

>> >>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>> >>> on the JVM.
>> >>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space
>> >>> the
>> >>> JVM
>> >>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
>> >>> compiled languages
>> >>> should in reality occupy more space.



From mmatalka at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 10:36:57 2016
From: mmatalka at gmail.com (Malcolm Matalka)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 16:36:57 +0200
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNepttXyv+ehNegmZT4XcAqRhpjY-MEoXdd8UG18VkXg8pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxqKy=ytTm2qE5mfgCossAgKc0wtZ+GoqZJk3rWcHArRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepttXyv+ehNegmZT4XcAqRhpjY-MEoXdd8UG18VkXg8pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKziXDXfQrf4eKE69Mm2A7i53SQ9Ve+G=aS7ckBH=gt5CH5sPQ@mail.gmail.com>

What's the goal of this conversation?
Den 28 apr. 2016 4:35 em skrev "Sujit K M" <kmsujit at gmail.com>:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 7:53 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
> >>> >>> on the JVM.
> >
> > You can count the size of objects in memory. Check the first link:
>
> It is an overhead to performance, we are looking at production systems.
>
> I want an exact reply to each of these question. In terms of the exact
> object ratio.
> For example, an array list what is the object size at run time.
>
> >> >>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object
> size
> >> >>> on the JVM.
> >> >>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> JVM
> >> >>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
> >> >>> compiled languages
> >> >>> should in reality occupy more space.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From kmsujit at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 10:37:52 2016
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:07:52 +0530
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKziXDXfQrf4eKE69Mm2A7i53SQ9Ve+G=aS7ckBH=gt5CH5sPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxqKy=ytTm2qE5mfgCossAgKc0wtZ+GoqZJk3rWcHArRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepttXyv+ehNegmZT4XcAqRhpjY-MEoXdd8UG18VkXg8pg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKziXDXfQrf4eKE69Mm2A7i53SQ9Ve+G=aS7ckBH=gt5CH5sPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNepx2rGe1VknUNg23hv93rXeQBQ25pqPzqavUMeoxxWeaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Malcolm Matalka <mmatalka at gmail.com> wrote:
> What's the goal of this conversation?

I guess we are finding a solution to one the most dependable person on earth.

>
> Den 28 apr. 2016 4:35 em skrev "Sujit K M" <kmsujit at gmail.com>:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 7:53 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
>> >>> >>> on the JVM.
>> >
>> > You can count the size of objects in memory. Check the first link:
>>
>> It is an overhead to performance, we are looking at production systems.
>>
>> I want an exact reply to each of these question. In terms of the exact
>> object ratio.
>> For example, an array list what is the object size at run time.
>>
>> >> >>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object
>> >> >>> size
>> >> >>> on the JVM.
>> >> >>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra
>> >> >>> space
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> JVM
>> >> >>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or
>> >> >>> JIT
>> >> >>> compiled languages
>> >> >>> should in reality occupy more space.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Thu Apr 28 10:47:04 2016
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 10:47:04 -0400
Subject: [talk] Python
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNepttXyv+ehNegmZT4XcAqRhpjY-MEoXdd8UG18VkXg8pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+6mNepW8b8Z=8-PFEWViWCgUCgPqugZG5-JDUR2Dpvp6LP6Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <57139A20.4060908@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <8fc253a1-4456-e6d5-d6eb-2780f7d73257@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwyvS2ycdM9qAU_EuKni2NZmFOcHbdHue=RYOe5nYBY9SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e25045c-8d74-0731-c95a-b3e39e5b6a6f@nomadlogic.org>
 <CADn+HszzsPSxWY-MPbJWE34haVZx=50=ze6wtwE2+DhZPTSJ8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <d835c2b9-2d70-d91e-03ee-4ee2da158e44@nomadlogic.org>
 <CAENxBwxfszV2pOvBhLwhU1jbMDsTu22=vEKqyJHAdS6HKdUuCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeoPsy7zgBLvUCs-pb1zFckKJ5uV1MdeRLPuwkvuTrfTtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyc86sHy+khO2Qcrdjy7AXUYEdGD80L=SCjYvZ_Xp07EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxFRi3ocnSBcqON6h6Rswtbw2GyxZF6+FupFWQpETHu3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepEX4vP_7QmA_gi8oekTSaHpqN6XfnWbP1DHQ01JzEJAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwyoGj8J2fCy8wThHvGfA+nfLpRhmtrhrppJ7jy9gMgJoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqqBrXG7eghedw4TumTVgwgmmyL-nVgYQ6tP9WLePYj-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwxqKy=ytTm2qE5mfgCossAgKc0wtZ+GoqZJk3rWcHArRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+6mNepttXyv+ehNegmZT4XcAqRhpjY-MEoXdd8UG18VkXg8pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBww8TbgBxpWJVJfbL4a94noxi+qTNn-XCwHLm+1PA1ZL_g@mail.gmail.com>

Using
https://github.com/twitter/commons/blob/master/src/java/com/twitter/common/objectsize/ObjectSizeCalculator.java

  public static void main (String [] args){
    List<Integer> i = new ArrayList<Integer>();
    System.out.println( ObjectSizeCalculator.getObjectSize(i));
    for (int j = 0 ; j< 100; j++){
      i.add(j);
    }
    System.out.println( ObjectSizeCalculator.getObjectSize(i))
  }
}

Results in,
40
2080

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 7:53 PM, Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object size
> >>> >>> on the JVM.
> >
> > You can count the size of objects in memory. Check the first link:
>
> It is an overhead to performance, we are looking at production systems.
>
> I want an exact reply to each of these question. In terms of the exact
> object ratio.
> For example, an array list what is the object size at run time.
>
> >> >>> Could you please clarify further? I mean does it involve a object
> size
> >> >>> on the JVM.
> >> >>> How to measure the size occupied by the Object? How much extra space
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> JVM
> >> >>> needs? What is JDK Feature that Let's you claim this?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have serious questions regarding this claim. As Interpreted or JIT
> >> >>> compiled languages
> >> >>> should in reality occupy more space.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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