From pooka at iki.fi  Sat Apr  1 11:52:16 2017
From: pooka at iki.fi (Antti Kantee)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:52:16 +0000
Subject: [talk] Anyone going to VCF East this weekend?
In-Reply-To: <CA+TaHT3C1MYdPH14MK+fr8qw9D0+sO+iNuk95SEniJoT3bQVJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+TaHT3Kott3wNG8scFnXJFY2sR3P4=7en0yLL+wqEvPS2Ju0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+TaHT3C1MYdPH14MK+fr8qw9D0+sO+iNuk95SEniJoT3bQVJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc501d0c-34b9-ce1c-0780-302d7bcce041@iki.fi>

On 27/03/17 12:24, Robert Menes wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> I'm going to be at VCF East this Saturday, at the InfoAge Science Center in
> Wall, NJ (http://vcfed.org/wp/). I'm curious to know if anyone else in the
> group may be heading down there as well; perhaps if so we can get together
> and hang out? :)

Might as well.  I'll be there in an hour or two wearing my 
"pixel-rotted" rumpkernel t-shirt.

Let's see if this one tops the one I went to in Munich.  Got to use 
NetBSD on an FPGA remake of the pc532 there ...



From mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com  Sat Apr  1 19:27:19 2017
From: mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com (Mike Burns)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 23:27:19 +0000
Subject: [talk] Getting to yes.c
Message-ID: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>

We're going to read yes.c together on Wednesday!

Bonus points if you do some reading ahead of time, but this event is fun
even if you're allergic to pointers.

In preparation I'm looking for the most interesting and most classic
implementations of yes.c out there in the wild. I'll come prepared with
OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, GNU, Illumos, V7, and Suckless. Anyone have
access to something older? Stranger? Shorter? Longer?

Here's what I have:

Man page:
http://man.openbsd.org/yes
https://linux.die.net/man/1/yes

OpenBSD:
http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c?rev=1.9&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

FreeBSD:
https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/usr.bin/yes/yes.c?revision=314436&view=markup

NetBSD:
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c?rev=1.9&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN

GNU:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/yes.c

Illumos:
https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/blob/master/usr/src/cmd/yes/yes.c

System 7:
http://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/yes.c

Suckless:
http://git.suckless.org/sbase/tree/yes.c

-Mike



From lists at eitanadler.com  Sat Apr  1 19:45:11 2017
From: lists at eitanadler.com (Eitan Adler)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 16:45:11 -0700
Subject: [talk] Getting to yes.c
In-Reply-To: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>
References: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>
Message-ID: <CAF6rxgku+_RH-wP_FVeqLDPiG37-cfmq195kX_qKH7n_fTvdtg@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 April 2017 at 16:27, Mike Burns <mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com> wrote:
> We're going to read yes.c together on Wednesday!

This seems like a fun exercise.

You might be interested in these versions in the unix history repo:
BSD SCCS
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/tree/BSD-SCCS/usr/src/usr.bin/yes

386 Patchkit version 0.1
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-0.1-patchkit/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c

Even earlier yes.c:
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-0.0-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c



-- 
Eitan Adler



From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sat Apr  1 22:45:00 2017
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 02:45:00 +0000
Subject: [talk] Getting to yes.c
In-Reply-To: <CAF6rxgku+_RH-wP_FVeqLDPiG37-cfmq195kX_qKH7n_fTvdtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>
 <CAF6rxgku+_RH-wP_FVeqLDPiG37-cfmq195kX_qKH7n_fTvdtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3f30a9e1-f311-6562-1250-3a90ba68e7c7@ceetonetechnology.com>

Eitan Adler:
> On 1 April 2017 at 16:27, Mike Burns <mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com> wrote:
>> We're going to read yes.c together on Wednesday!
> 
> This seems like a fun exercise.
> 
> You might be interested in these versions in the unix history repo:
> BSD SCCS
> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/tree/BSD-SCCS/usr/src/usr.bin/yes
> 
> 386 Patchkit version 0.1
> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-0.1-patchkit/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
> 
> Even earlier yes.c:
> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-0.0-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c

Eitan beat me to it... totally thinking along the same lines.

There's also the Unix archive stuff on mirrors.nycbug.org to check out
if there's anything additional.

This should be a fun meeting.

I believe Patrick is going to stream it... maybe we can confirm on talk@?

g



From viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 10:16:48 2017
From: viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com (Robert Menes)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 10:16:48 -0400
Subject: [talk] Getting to yes.c
In-Reply-To: <3f30a9e1-f311-6562-1250-3a90ba68e7c7@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>
 <CAF6rxgku+_RH-wP_FVeqLDPiG37-cfmq195kX_qKH7n_fTvdtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3f30a9e1-f311-6562-1250-3a90ba68e7c7@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <CA+TaHT1hbZ_UmwKgDsdoKbZr3OHJGXrTYUBc3zYOJJ+a=B+TKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here's 4.4 BSD yes.c:

http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.4BSD/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c

--Robert

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:45 PM, George Rosamond <
george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:

> Eitan Adler:
> > On 1 April 2017 at 16:27, Mike Burns <mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com> wrote:
> >> We're going to read yes.c together on Wednesday!
> >
> > This seems like a fun exercise.
> >
> > You might be interested in these versions in the unix history repo:
> > BSD SCCS
> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/tree/BSD-
> SCCS/usr/src/usr.bin/yes
> >
> > 386 Patchkit version 0.1
> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-
> 0.1-patchkit/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
> >
> > Even earlier yes.c:
> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-
> 0.0-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
>
> Eitan beat me to it... totally thinking along the same lines.
>
> There's also the Unix archive stuff on mirrors.nycbug.org to check out
> if there's anything additional.
>
> This should be a fun meeting.
>
> I believe Patrick is going to stream it... maybe we can confirm on talk@?
>
> g
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Nobody's ever lost in life...they're merely taking the scenic route.
==============================
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
==============================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1.2
GCS/S/M/MU d- s+: a37 C++(+++) UL++++>$ P++ L+++ E+ W+ N+ o+ K++ w--- O-
M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+ 5++ X++ R tv b+++ DI+++ D++(---) G++ e+ h-
r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170402/75caf4e0/attachment.htm>

From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Apr  2 10:45:00 2017
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 14:45:00 +0000
Subject: [talk] and on CNN
Message-ID: <2da2f198-fa5f-8dcb-487e-aaf85b2840f4@ceetonetechnology.com>

GNN is on the Joie Chen/KPMG show Entree on CNN at some point in the
roundtable about cybersecurity.

I bet it was prompted by the appearance of "The Design and
Implementation.." in the Guardian stock photo.

;)

g



From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 23:30:11 2017
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 23:30:11 -0400
Subject: [talk] Getting to yes.c
In-Reply-To: <CA+TaHT1hbZ_UmwKgDsdoKbZr3OHJGXrTYUBc3zYOJJ+a=B+TKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>
 <CAF6rxgku+_RH-wP_FVeqLDPiG37-cfmq195kX_qKH7n_fTvdtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3f30a9e1-f311-6562-1250-3a90ba68e7c7@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <CA+TaHT1hbZ_UmwKgDsdoKbZr3OHJGXrTYUBc3zYOJJ+a=B+TKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66DFEE58-5A27-40E7-BE90-6CA1A06ABBAE@gmail.com>




> On Apr 2, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Robert Menes <viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Here's 4.4 BSD yes.c:
> 
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.4BSD/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
> 
> --Robert
> 
>> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:45 PM, George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
>> Eitan Adler:
>> > On 1 April 2017 at 16:27, Mike Burns <mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com> wrote:
>> >> We're going to read yes.c together on Wednesday!
>> >
>> > This seems like a fun exercise.
>> >
>> > You might be interested in these versions in the unix history repo:
>> > BSD SCCS
>> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/tree/BSD-SCCS/usr/src/usr.bin/yes
>> >
>> > 386 Patchkit version 0.1
>> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-0.1-patchkit/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
>> >
>> > Even earlier yes.c:
>> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-0.0-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
>> 
>> Eitan beat me to it... totally thinking along the same lines.
>> 
>> There's also the Unix archive stuff on mirrors.nycbug.org to check out
>> if there's anything additional.
>> 
>> This should be a fun meeting.
>> 
>> I believe Patrick is going to stream it... maybe we can confirm on talk@?
>> 
>> g
>> 

Sure. I can do. See you soon. 
P




>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nobody's ever lost in life...they're merely taking the scenic route.
> ==============================
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> ==============================
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1.2
> GCS/S/M/MU d- s+: a37 C++(+++) UL++++>$ P++ L+++ E+ W+ N+ o+ K++ w--- O-
> M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+ 5++ X++ R tv b+++ DI+++ D++(---) G++ e+ h-
> r++ y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170404/3dc2a489/attachment.htm>

From viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 06:56:27 2017
From: viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com (Robert Menes)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 06:56:27 -0400
Subject: [talk] dmesg from WorkPad Z50
Message-ID: <CA+TaHT0LUOaNAF6EcOgpmLkKNAjCqdhKOnLyL_J1QrsgTJ5_gQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everyone,

I posted my dmesg from my WorkPad Z50 to dmesgd:

http://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=3148

Running NetBSD 7.1 on it. Haven't tried wifi just yet but I did try X.
X works but is so ridiculously slow that it's damn near useless.

--Robert

-- 
Nobody's ever lost in life...they're merely taking the scenic route.
==============================
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
==============================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1.2
GCS/S/M/MU d- s+: a37 C++(+++) UL++++>$ P++ L+++ E+ W+ N+ o+ K++ w--- O-
M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+ 5++ X++ R tv b+++ DI+++ D++(---) G++ e+ h-
r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170405/8a872357/attachment.htm>

From viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 07:07:46 2017
From: viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com (Robert Menes)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 07:07:46 -0400
Subject: [talk] Getting to yes.c
In-Reply-To: <66DFEE58-5A27-40E7-BE90-6CA1A06ABBAE@gmail.com>
References: <20170401232718.GI433@safeword.mike-burns.com>
 <CAF6rxgku+_RH-wP_FVeqLDPiG37-cfmq195kX_qKH7n_fTvdtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3f30a9e1-f311-6562-1250-3a90ba68e7c7@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <CA+TaHT1hbZ_UmwKgDsdoKbZr3OHJGXrTYUBc3zYOJJ+a=B+TKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <66DFEE58-5A27-40E7-BE90-6CA1A06ABBAE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+TaHT2vo5b+bJDVuuRjL4NEP7mvGpB0_-smz6tHW1z1XmFCSg@mail.gmail.com>

Will anyone make printout copies of each yes.c for us to pick up and read?
Just curious.

--Robert

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 11:30 PM, Pat McEvoy <mcevoy.pat at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Robert Menes <viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Here's 4.4 BSD yes.c:
>
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.4BSD/usr/
> src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
>
> --Robert
>
> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 10:45 PM, George Rosamond <
> george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:
>
>> Eitan Adler:
>> > On 1 April 2017 at 16:27, Mike Burns <mike+nycbug at mike-burns.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> We're going to read yes.c together on Wednesday!
>> >
>> > This seems like a fun exercise.
>> >
>> > You might be interested in these versions in the unix history repo:
>> > BSD SCCS
>> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/tree/BSD-SCC
>> S/usr/src/usr.bin/yes
>> >
>> > 386 Patchkit version 0.1
>> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-
>> 0.1-patchkit/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
>> >
>> > Even earlier yes.c:
>> > https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/386BSD-
>> 0.0-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/usr.bin/yes/yes.c
>>
>> Eitan beat me to it... totally thinking along the same lines.
>>
>> There's also the Unix archive stuff on mirrors.nycbug.org to check out
>> if there's anything additional.
>>
>> This should be a fun meeting.
>>
>> I believe Patrick is going to stream it... maybe we can confirm on talk@?
>>
>> g
>>
>>
> Sure. I can do. See you soon.
> P
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nobody's ever lost in life...they're merely taking the scenic route.
> ==============================
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> ==============================
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1.2
> GCS/S/M/MU d- s+: a37 C++(+++) UL++++>$ P++ L+++ E+ W+ N+ o+ K++ w--- O-
> M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+ 5++ X++ R tv b+++ DI+++ D++(---) G++ e+ h-
> r++ y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>


-- 
Nobody's ever lost in life...they're merely taking the scenic route.
==============================
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
==============================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1.2
GCS/S/M/MU d- s+: a37 C++(+++) UL++++>$ P++ L+++ E+ W+ N+ o+ K++ w--- O-
M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+ 5++ X++ R tv b+++ DI+++ D++(---) G++ e+ h-
r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170405/6b20ade7/attachment.htm>

From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Apr  5 10:03:00 2017
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 14:03:00 +0000
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
Message-ID: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>

Tonight at LMHQ downtown on Broadway:

Getting to yes.c, Mike Burns
Wednesday, April 5, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
Notice: Location Change

Let's read a classic: yes.c. We can look at OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD,
GNU, Illumos, and Unix 7th ed. implementations. With the many different
authors and distinct cultures we will be sure to have much to discuss
and compare. Some things to think about: what are some uses for the yes
command? What errors can occur, and how are they handled? How did GNU
manage to make this program 88 lines long? How did Illumos get this
program indented by five tabs?

The inspiration is the shared metaphors and expressions we have in
natural language due to common books (e.g. Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy, Romeo and Juliet) and movies (e.g. Hackers, A Christmas Carol).
Come prepared for a poetry slam crossed with a book club.

Speaker Bio

Mike is an OpenBSD contributor, port maintainer, and long-time BSD user.
He's new to town, having previously run the Classical Code Reading Group
of Stockholm.

*****

Building Open Source Random Number Generators, Rob Seward
Wednesday, May 3, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan

*****

BSDCan 2017 in Ottawa, Canada with the conference from June 9-10 and the
tutorials June 7-8.

https://www.bsdcan.org/2017/

****

vBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:

Verisign is hosting its 3rd vBSDcon, scheduled for September 8 - 9,
2017, in Reston, VA.  A Call For Presentations is currently open and
submissions are being accepted at vBSDcon.com.  CFP administration is
being conducted through EasyChair, which require accounts to upload
submissions for consideration.  Our call is open through April 30, 2017.
 So get your submissions in soon!

Again, submissions can be made at vBSDcon.com!

*****

EuroBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:

On behalf of the EuroBSDCon 2017 Program Committee, here is the Call for
Proposals for the EuroBSDCon 2017 conference which will take place in
Paris, France from 21st through 24th of September 2017:

https://2017.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-proposals/

Closing date for the CfP is April, 30th.



From pvarga at pvrg.net  Wed Apr  5 13:43:30 2017
From: pvarga at pvrg.net (Peter Varga)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:43:30 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
In-Reply-To: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Let me ask will the meeting possibly be broadcast live?

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017, at 10:03, George Rosamond wrote:
> Tonight at LMHQ downtown on Broadway:
> 
> Getting to yes.c, Mike Burns
> Wednesday, April 5, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
> Notice: Location Change
> 
> Let's read a classic: yes.c. We can look at OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD,
> GNU, Illumos, and Unix 7th ed. implementations. With the many different
> authors and distinct cultures we will be sure to have much to discuss
> and compare. Some things to think about: what are some uses for the yes
> command? What errors can occur, and how are they handled? How did GNU
> manage to make this program 88 lines long? How did Illumos get this
> program indented by five tabs?
> 
> The inspiration is the shared metaphors and expressions we have in
> natural language due to common books (e.g. Hitchhiker's Guide to the
> Galaxy, Romeo and Juliet) and movies (e.g. Hackers, A Christmas Carol).
> Come prepared for a poetry slam crossed with a book club.
> 
> Speaker Bio
> 
> Mike is an OpenBSD contributor, port maintainer, and long-time BSD user.
> He's new to town, having previously run the Classical Code Reading Group
> of Stockholm.
> 
> *****
> 
> Building Open Source Random Number Generators, Rob Seward
> Wednesday, May 3, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
> 
> *****
> 
> BSDCan 2017 in Ottawa, Canada with the conference from June 9-10 and the
> tutorials June 7-8.
> 
> https://www.bsdcan.org/2017/
> 
> ****
> 
> vBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
> 
> Verisign is hosting its 3rd vBSDcon, scheduled for September 8 - 9,
> 2017, in Reston, VA.  A Call For Presentations is currently open and
> submissions are being accepted at vBSDcon.com.  CFP administration is
> being conducted through EasyChair, which require accounts to upload
> submissions for consideration.  Our call is open through April 30, 2017.
>  So get your submissions in soon!
> 
> Again, submissions can be made at vBSDcon.com!
> 
> *****
> 
> EuroBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
> 
> On behalf of the EuroBSDCon 2017 Program Committee, here is the Call for
> Proposals for the EuroBSDCon 2017 conference which will take place in
> Paris, France from 21st through 24th of September 2017:
> 
> https://2017.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-proposals/
> 
> Closing date for the CfP is April, 30th.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 16:21:54 2017
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:21:54 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
In-Reply-To: <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <6D2AD444-BCE1-41CA-8DB0-040739E17276@gmail.com>

Yes, but I can not say for certain that I will be there for the very start. 

Patrick McEvoy


> On Apr 5, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Peter Varga <pvarga at pvrg.net> wrote:
> 
> Let me ask will the meeting possibly be broadcast live?
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017, at 10:03, George Rosamond wrote:
>> Tonight at LMHQ downtown on Broadway:
>> 
>> Getting to yes.c, Mike Burns
>> Wednesday, April 5, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
>> Notice: Location Change
>> 
>> Let's read a classic: yes.c. We can look at OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD,
>> GNU, Illumos, and Unix 7th ed. implementations. With the many different
>> authors and distinct cultures we will be sure to have much to discuss
>> and compare. Some things to think about: what are some uses for the yes
>> command? What errors can occur, and how are they handled? How did GNU
>> manage to make this program 88 lines long? How did Illumos get this
>> program indented by five tabs?
>> 
>> The inspiration is the shared metaphors and expressions we have in
>> natural language due to common books (e.g. Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>> Galaxy, Romeo and Juliet) and movies (e.g. Hackers, A Christmas Carol).
>> Come prepared for a poetry slam crossed with a book club.
>> 
>> Speaker Bio
>> 
>> Mike is an OpenBSD contributor, port maintainer, and long-time BSD user.
>> He's new to town, having previously run the Classical Code Reading Group
>> of Stockholm.
>> 
>> *****
>> 
>> Building Open Source Random Number Generators, Rob Seward
>> Wednesday, May 3, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
>> 
>> *****
>> 
>> BSDCan 2017 in Ottawa, Canada with the conference from June 9-10 and the
>> tutorials June 7-8.
>> 
>> https://www.bsdcan.org/2017/
>> 
>> ****
>> 
>> vBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
>> 
>> Verisign is hosting its 3rd vBSDcon, scheduled for September 8 - 9,
>> 2017, in Reston, VA.  A Call For Presentations is currently open and
>> submissions are being accepted at vBSDcon.com.  CFP administration is
>> being conducted through EasyChair, which require accounts to upload
>> submissions for consideration.  Our call is open through April 30, 2017.
>> So get your submissions in soon!
>> 
>> Again, submissions can be made at vBSDcon.com!
>> 
>> *****
>> 
>> EuroBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
>> 
>> On behalf of the EuroBSDCon 2017 Program Committee, here is the Call for
>> Proposals for the EuroBSDCon 2017 conference which will take place in
>> Paris, France from 21st through 24th of September 2017:
>> 
>> https://2017.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-proposals/
>> 
>> Closing date for the CfP is April, 30th.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From pvarga at pvrg.net  Wed Apr  5 18:31:30 2017
From: pvarga at pvrg.net (Peter Varga)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 18:31:30 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
In-Reply-To: <6D2AD444-BCE1-41CA-8DB0-040739E17276@gmail.com>
References: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6D2AD444-BCE1-41CA-8DB0-040739E17276@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1491431490.240240.935630144.35937D6B@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Thank you,Pat.  I and most likely the remote audience will appreciate .
your efforts.
On Wed, Apr 5, 2017, at 16:21, Pat McEvoy wrote:
> Yes, but I can not say for certain that I will be there for the very
> start. 
> 
> Patrick McEvoy
> 
> 
> > On Apr 5, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Peter Varga <pvarga at pvrg.net> wrote:
> > 
> > Let me ask will the meeting possibly be broadcast live?
> > 
> >> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017, at 10:03, George Rosamond wrote:
> >> Tonight at LMHQ downtown on Broadway:
> >> 
> >> Getting to yes.c, Mike Burns
> >> Wednesday, April 5, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
> >> Notice: Location Change
> >> 
> >> Let's read a classic: yes.c. We can look at OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD,
> >> GNU, Illumos, and Unix 7th ed. implementations. With the many different
> >> authors and distinct cultures we will be sure to have much to discuss
> >> and compare. Some things to think about: what are some uses for the yes
> >> command? What errors can occur, and how are they handled? How did GNU
> >> manage to make this program 88 lines long? How did Illumos get this
> >> program indented by five tabs?
> >> 
> >> The inspiration is the shared metaphors and expressions we have in
> >> natural language due to common books (e.g. Hitchhiker's Guide to the
> >> Galaxy, Romeo and Juliet) and movies (e.g. Hackers, A Christmas Carol).
> >> Come prepared for a poetry slam crossed with a book club.
> >> 
> >> Speaker Bio
> >> 
> >> Mike is an OpenBSD contributor, port maintainer, and long-time BSD user.
> >> He's new to town, having previously run the Classical Code Reading Group
> >> of Stockholm.
> >> 
> >> *****
> >> 
> >> Building Open Source Random Number Generators, Rob Seward
> >> Wednesday, May 3, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
> >> 
> >> *****
> >> 
> >> BSDCan 2017 in Ottawa, Canada with the conference from June 9-10 and the
> >> tutorials June 7-8.
> >> 
> >> https://www.bsdcan.org/2017/
> >> 
> >> ****
> >> 
> >> vBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
> >> 
> >> Verisign is hosting its 3rd vBSDcon, scheduled for September 8 - 9,
> >> 2017, in Reston, VA.  A Call For Presentations is currently open and
> >> submissions are being accepted at vBSDcon.com.  CFP administration is
> >> being conducted through EasyChair, which require accounts to upload
> >> submissions for consideration.  Our call is open through April 30, 2017.
> >> So get your submissions in soon!
> >> 
> >> Again, submissions can be made at vBSDcon.com!
> >> 
> >> *****
> >> 
> >> EuroBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
> >> 
> >> On behalf of the EuroBSDCon 2017 Program Committee, here is the Call for
> >> Proposals for the EuroBSDCon 2017 conference which will take place in
> >> Paris, France from 21st through 24th of September 2017:
> >> 
> >> https://2017.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-proposals/
> >> 
> >> Closing date for the CfP is April, 30th.
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 19:52:38 2017
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:52:38 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
In-Reply-To: <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <070369B6-4821-4F3B-9D83-DC2E6131C28C@gmail.com>

Http://www.nycbug.org/index.cgi?action=streaming 

Patrick McEvoy


> On Apr 5, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Peter Varga <pvarga at pvrg.net> wrote:
> 
> Let me ask will the meeting possibly be broadcast live?
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017, at 10:03, George Rosamond wrote:
>> Tonight at LMHQ downtown on Broadway:
>> 
>> Getting to yes.c, Mike Burns
>> Wednesday, April 5, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
>> Notice: Location Change
>> 
>> Let's read a classic: yes.c. We can look at OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD,
>> GNU, Illumos, and Unix 7th ed. implementations. With the many different
>> authors and distinct cultures we will be sure to have much to discuss
>> and compare. Some things to think about: what are some uses for the yes
>> command? What errors can occur, and how are they handled? How did GNU
>> manage to make this program 88 lines long? How did Illumos get this
>> program indented by five tabs?
>> 
>> The inspiration is the shared metaphors and expressions we have in
>> natural language due to common books (e.g. Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>> Galaxy, Romeo and Juliet) and movies (e.g. Hackers, A Christmas Carol).
>> Come prepared for a poetry slam crossed with a book club.
>> 
>> Speaker Bio
>> 
>> Mike is an OpenBSD contributor, port maintainer, and long-time BSD user.
>> He's new to town, having previously run the Classical Code Reading Group
>> of Stockholm.
>> 
>> *****
>> 
>> Building Open Source Random Number Generators, Rob Seward
>> Wednesday, May 3, 18:45, LMHQ, 150 Broadway, 20th Floor, Manhattan
>> 
>> *****
>> 
>> BSDCan 2017 in Ottawa, Canada with the conference from June 9-10 and the
>> tutorials June 7-8.
>> 
>> https://www.bsdcan.org/2017/
>> 
>> ****
>> 
>> vBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
>> 
>> Verisign is hosting its 3rd vBSDcon, scheduled for September 8 - 9,
>> 2017, in Reston, VA.  A Call For Presentations is currently open and
>> submissions are being accepted at vBSDcon.com.  CFP administration is
>> being conducted through EasyChair, which require accounts to upload
>> submissions for consideration.  Our call is open through April 30, 2017.
>> So get your submissions in soon!
>> 
>> Again, submissions can be made at vBSDcon.com!
>> 
>> *****
>> 
>> EuroBSDCon 2017 has announced its CFP:
>> 
>> On behalf of the EuroBSDCon 2017 Program Committee, here is the Call for
>> Proposals for the EuroBSDCon 2017 conference which will take place in
>> Paris, France from 21st through 24th of September 2017:
>> 
>> https://2017.eurobsdcon.org/call-for-proposals/
>> 
>> Closing date for the CfP is April, 30th.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 20:58:42 2017
From: viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com (Robert Menes)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 20:58:42 -0400
Subject: [talk] Another dmesgd from me!
Message-ID: <CA+TaHT2+Nf6MBJY5WTD6GWp0f4832_Q-4wKS8Cz3xfURML5wWA@mail.gmail.com>

This time from my iBook G4 running OpenBSD!

http://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=3149

--Robert

-- 
Nobody's ever lost in life...they're merely taking the scenic route.
==============================
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
==============================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1.2
GCS/S/M/MU d- s+: a37 C++(+++) UL++++>$ P++ L+++ E+ W+ N+ o+ K++ w--- O-
M !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP(+) t+ 5++ X++ R tv b+++ DI+++ D++(---) G++ e+ h-
r++ y+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170405/6b75b63a/attachment.htm>

From venture37 at geeklan.co.uk  Thu Apr  6 11:01:43 2017
From: venture37 at geeklan.co.uk (Sevan Janiyan)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:01:43 +0100
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
In-Reply-To: <070369B6-4821-4F3B-9D83-DC2E6131C28C@gmail.com>
References: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <070369B6-4821-4F3B-9D83-DC2E6131C28C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9eb9e6e8-eec3-dad3-4b50-270e77daeda2@geeklan.co.uk>



On 06/04/2017 00:52, Pat McEvoy wrote:
> Http://www.nycbug.org/index.cgi?action=streaming 

My internet connection dropped out & so I missed it :(


Sevan



From spork at bway.net  Thu Apr  6 16:45:38 2017
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:45:38 -0400
Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Tonight: code reading with yes.c
In-Reply-To: <9eb9e6e8-eec3-dad3-4b50-270e77daeda2@geeklan.co.uk>
References: <58fbf740-280c-ae7f-d484-881f1e77b4f1@ceetonetechnology.com>
 <1491414210.128875.935340600.754BE625@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <070369B6-4821-4F3B-9D83-DC2E6131C28C@gmail.com>
 <9eb9e6e8-eec3-dad3-4b50-270e77daeda2@geeklan.co.uk>
Message-ID: <8909137D-7C9B-4598-B05F-963DFC43D52C@bway.net>

I?ve asked before and I think the answer was either no answer or ?no?, but is there an archive of these somewhere?

Also, FWIW, that player kind of fails if you have flash blocked on Chrome, it doesn?t seem to recognize that the html fallback is available (seen this on other jw player installs, perhaps it?s just an outdated version of the player).

Thanks,

Charles
-- 
Charles Sprickman
NetEng/SysAdmin
Bway.net - New York's Best Internet www.bway.net
spork at bway.net - 212.982.9800



> On Apr 6, 2017, at 11:01 AM, Sevan Janiyan <venture37 at geeklan.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 06/04/2017 00:52, Pat McEvoy wrote:
>> Http://www.nycbug.org/index.cgi?action=streaming 
> 
> My internet connection dropped out & so I missed it :(
> 
> 
> Sevan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From venture37 at geeklan.co.uk  Fri Apr  7 13:06:22 2017
From: venture37 at geeklan.co.uk (Sevan Janiyan)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 18:06:22 +0100
Subject: [talk] Another dmesgd from me!
In-Reply-To: <CA+TaHT2+Nf6MBJY5WTD6GWp0f4832_Q-4wKS8Cz3xfURML5wWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+TaHT2+Nf6MBJY5WTD6GWp0f4832_Q-4wKS8Cz3xfURML5wWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70454422-afc0-dcae-1048-e10a91472353@geeklan.co.uk>



On 06/04/2017 01:58, Robert Menes wrote:
> This time from my iBook G4 running OpenBSD!
> 
> http://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=3149

Does X11 run? (noticed the error messages)


Sevan



From viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 14:34:31 2017
From: viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com (Robert Menes)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:34:31 -0400
Subject: [talk] Another dmesgd from me!
In-Reply-To: <CA+TaHT0cRbS-eWTYWfRQs6TGWNrWdYRS8bjspH0erRGw04N=Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+TaHT2+Nf6MBJY5WTD6GWp0f4832_Q-4wKS8Cz3xfURML5wWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <70454422-afc0-dcae-1048-e10a91472353@geeklan.co.uk>
 <CA+TaHT0cRbS-eWTYWfRQs6TGWNrWdYRS8bjspH0erRGw04N=Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+TaHT3BBdYd=L3arvdXj8Hc=DC4PZm2Yc3oaRK16DBz=e-L+A@mail.gmail.com>

X11 does run. I have Xfce as my desktop environment on the iBook.

--Robert

On Apr 7, 2017 13:06, "Sevan Janiyan" <venture37 at geeklan.co.uk> wrote:



On 06/04/2017 01:58, Robert Menes wrote:
> This time from my iBook G4 running OpenBSD!
>
> http://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=3149

Does X11 run? (noticed the error messages)


Sevan

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170407/67f23367/attachment.htm>

From mark.saad at ymail.com  Fri Apr  7 18:47:30 2017
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 18:47:30 -0400
Subject: [talk] Containerization
Message-ID: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>

All
   I have a thought experiment head over to http://99percentinvisible.org/ and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it transforms the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight with the decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related economies down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn interesting to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .

---
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170407/8563da1e/attachment.htm>

From kmsujit at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 03:19:49 2017
From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:49:49 +0530
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> All
>    I have a thought experiment head over to http://99percentinvisible.org/
> and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it transforms
> the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight with the
> decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related economies
> down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer
> containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling
> software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super
> container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn interesting
> to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and
> administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
>
Too Much Automation?



From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 09:34:44 2017
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:34:44 -0400
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwwHRaZR9t0yo8_4mg4V54rRCzK_4F2y648iWi1OVRmAgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Saturday, April 8, 2017, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > All
> >    I have a thought experiment head over to
> http://99percentinvisible.org/
> > and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it
> transforms
> > the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight with
> the
> > decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related economies
> > down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer
> > containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling
> > software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super
> > container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn
> interesting
> > to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and
> > administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
> >
> Too Much Automation?
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org <javascript:;>
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

Like all new tech there is a hype cycle where people attempt to use it for
everything. Dockers are new in that regard. But the concept is old jails,
openvz, vmware. Microservices are actually the new automation hotness.

My company has a microservice task force...where we attempt to figure out
what exactly microservices are? Webapps, lamba, node js apps?

In any case on the surface docker is mostly a cross platform software
packaging system..


-- 
Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
usual.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170408/cb45cd13/attachment.htm>

From bonsaime at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 09:38:59 2017
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 06:38:59 -0700
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBOBmDbiWM4BbV3NjwSHux6U61L_ZbcQBNO9_31A4say3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> > All
> >    I have a thought experiment head over to
> http://99percentinvisible.org/
> > and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it
> transforms
> > the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight with
> the
> > decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related economies
> > down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer
> > containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling
> > software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super
> > container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn
> interesting
> > to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and
> > administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
> >
> Too Much Automation?
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


I used to work for a small web design firm that needed someone to manage
their TWO servers, to cram all the customers we could into one box and help
troubleshoot email issues, as their dedicated sysadmin. I had seriously a
single 100 line bash script that did my job, and the rest of the time I
spent tuning our phone system to improve call quality to the SF office.

Eventually I had to quit because they couldn't make payroll during a lull
in acquiring customers. I don't think this position is available anymore,
but the good news is that the people working there continue to make great
custom websites. They have absolutely no need for someone in particular to
maintain an operating system on a given piece of hardware, and that's great
for their business.

Now at my current position we have a very small team who manages quite a
large amount of infrastructure. Millions and millions of dollars of
hardware and networking. However, I've never seen any of it. Someone DOES
have the job of racking it all up and replacing broken hard disks on the
SAN, but I'll never know who or even what brand of disks they use or even
what type of SAN. There are fewer of these jobs per resource managed due to
increased efficiency, I would assume.

So that small business admin maintaining a LAMP platform is gone. That job
doesn't exist. Soon enough, and it's happening right now at my employer,
the dedicated DevOps team also will go. Their jobs will be given to three
positions which will not go away.. the accountant/controller, the security
chief (one person), and the application developer who is also interested a
bit in plumbing.

Remember what "computers" used to be when they were people? No, nobody
does. Yes the traditional sysadmin has been replaced by a computer program.
There is a rack-and-stack person and a person who designs datacenters and a
person who ensures uptime and someone who makes sure the VPN is up. But
nobody is upgrading Apache in-place and crossing their fingers.

-- 
-jesse
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170408/2e1ef071/attachment.htm>

From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 10:01:33 2017
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 10:01:33 -0400
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <CAJU5ZBOBmDbiWM4BbV3NjwSHux6U61L_ZbcQBNO9_31A4say3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJU5ZBOBmDbiWM4BbV3NjwSHux6U61L_ZbcQBNO9_31A4say3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwx4CWaPgp=x62ffFyTzn9Fg1m6ZBc26zxRXJv3mX4mcwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
>> > All
>> >    I have a thought experiment head over to
>> http://99percentinvisible.org/
>> > and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it
>> transforms
>> > the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight with
>> the
>> > decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related economies
>> > down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer
>> > containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling
>> > software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super
>> > container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn
>> interesting
>> > to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and
>> > administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
>> >
>> Too Much Automation?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> I used to work for a small web design firm that needed someone to manage
> their TWO servers, to cram all the customers we could into one box and help
> troubleshoot email issues, as their dedicated sysadmin. I had seriously a
> single 100 line bash script that did my job, and the rest of the time I
> spent tuning our phone system to improve call quality to the SF office.
>
> Eventually I had to quit because they couldn't make payroll during a lull
> in acquiring customers. I don't think this position is available anymore,
> but the good news is that the people working there continue to make great
> custom websites. They have absolutely no need for someone in particular to
> maintain an operating system on a given piece of hardware, and that's great
> for their business.
>
> Now at my current position we have a very small team who manages quite a
> large amount of infrastructure. Millions and millions of dollars of
> hardware and networking. However, I've never seen any of it. Someone DOES
> have the job of racking it all up and replacing broken hard disks on the
> SAN, but I'll never know who or even what brand of disks they use or even
> what type of SAN. There are fewer of these jobs per resource managed due to
> increased efficiency, I would assume.
>
> So that small business admin maintaining a LAMP platform is gone. That job
> doesn't exist. Soon enough, and it's happening right now at my employer,
> the dedicated DevOps team also will go. Their jobs will be given to three
> positions which will not go away.. the accountant/controller, the security
> chief (one person), and the application developer who is also interested a
> bit in plumbing.
>
> Remember what "computers" used to be when they were people? No, nobody
> does. Yes the traditional sysadmin has been replaced by a computer program.
> There is a rack-and-stack person and a person who designs datacenters and a
> person who ensures uptime and someone who makes sure the VPN is up. But
> nobody is upgrading Apache in-place and crossing their fingers.
>
> --
> -jesse
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

Think about this: FreeBSD ports vs Fedora packages, vs Debian whatevers, vs
mac freshports. The industry was wasting a lot of time packaging and
re-packaging things.

I used to use linux vserver which had a similar system to create
containers:  vserver --create --name mything --ip 34.34.34.34 --src
rsync:/myweb/server/

Docker just become an easy efficient way to share packages. It lets the
people who build the software build a package and distribute to all people
that have docker. This is much more efficient then having every distro of
every unix/linux build a package  ./configure && make && make install &&
customize.

That is why it is winning. Speed/cross platform/ ease of use.

Take for example a piece of software like c-actor framework. The freebsd
port struggles somewhat because none of the devs are on that platform. The
user really does not want to take up that burden, they just want to use it.
If a docker exists you just use that on any platform and you can deploy it
to amazon container service as well your going to be more inclined to use
that then to get sidetracked into fixing a port which is not actually what
you want to do.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170408/9c31431a/attachment.htm>

From pete at nomadlogic.org  Sat Apr  8 12:04:55 2017
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 09:04:55 -0700
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <CAENxBwx4CWaPgp=x62ffFyTzn9Fg1m6ZBc26zxRXJv3mX4mcwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJU5ZBOBmDbiWM4BbV3NjwSHux6U61L_ZbcQBNO9_31A4say3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwx4CWaPgp=x62ffFyTzn9Fg1m6ZBc26zxRXJv3mX4mcwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d756ed33-57a6-b5fe-d284-1a10d55b3907@nomadlogic.org>



On 04/08/2017 07:01, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com 
> <mailto:bonsaime at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com
>     <mailto:kmsujit at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com
>         <mailto:mark.saad at ymail.com>> wrote:
>         > All
>         >    I have a thought experiment head over to
>         http://99percentinvisible.org/
>         > and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how
>         it transforms
>         > the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban
>         blight with the
>         > decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the
>         related economies
>         > down .  So now think about how this works with regards to
>         computer
>         > containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by
>         hand rolling
>         > software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman?
>         Is a super
>         > container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's
>         damn interesting
>         > to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel
>         developers and
>         > administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
>         >
>         Too Much Automation?
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         talk mailing list
>         talk at lists.nycbug.org <mailto:talk at lists.nycbug.org>
>         http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>         <http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>
>
>
>
>     I used to work for a small web design firm that needed someone to
>     manage their TWO servers, to cram all the customers we could into
>     one box and help troubleshoot email issues, as their dedicated
>     sysadmin. I had seriously a single 100 line bash script that did
>     my job, and the rest of the time I spent tuning our phone system
>     to improve call quality to the SF office.
>
>     Eventually I had to quit because they couldn't make payroll during
>     a lull in acquiring customers. I don't think this position is
>     available anymore, but the good news is that the people working
>     there continue to make great custom websites. They have absolutely
>     no need for someone in particular to maintain an operating system
>     on a given piece of hardware, and that's great for their business.
>
>     Now at my current position we have a very small team who manages
>     quite a large amount of infrastructure. Millions and millions of
>     dollars of hardware and networking. However, I've never seen any
>     of it. Someone DOES have the job of racking it all up and
>     replacing broken hard disks on the SAN, but I'll never know who or
>     even what brand of disks they use or even what type of SAN. There
>     are fewer of these jobs per resource managed due to increased
>     efficiency, I would assume.
>
>     So that small business admin maintaining a LAMP platform is gone.
>     That job doesn't exist. Soon enough, and it's happening right now
>     at my employer, the dedicated DevOps team also will go. Their jobs
>     will be given to three positions which will not go away.. the
>     accountant/controller, the security chief (one person), and the
>     application developer who is also interested a bit in plumbing.
>
>     Remember what "computers" used to be when they were people? No,
>     nobody does. Yes the traditional sysadmin has been replaced by a
>     computer program. There is a rack-and-stack person and a person
>     who designs datacenters and a person who ensures uptime and
>     someone who makes sure the VPN is up. But nobody is upgrading
>     Apache in-place and crossing their fingers.
>
>     -- 
>     -jesse
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     talk mailing list
>     talk at lists.nycbug.org <mailto:talk at lists.nycbug.org>
>     http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>     <http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>
>
>
> Think about this: FreeBSD ports vs Fedora packages, vs Debian 
> whatevers, vs mac freshports. The industry was wasting a lot of time 
> packaging and re-packaging things.
>
> I used to use linux vserver which had a similar system to create 
> containers:  vserver --create --name mything --ip 34.34.34.34 --src 
> rsync:/myweb/server/
>
> Docker just become an easy efficient way to share packages. It lets 
> the people who build the software build a package and distribute to 
> all people that have docker. This is much more efficient then having 
> every distro of every unix/linux build a package  ./configure && make 
> && make install && customize.
>
> That is why it is winning. Speed/cross platform/ ease of use.
>
> Take for example a piece of software like c-actor framework. The 
> freebsd port struggles somewhat because none of the devs are on that 
> platform. The user really does not want to take up that burden, they 
> just want to use it. If a docker exists you just use that on any 
> platform and you can deploy it to amazon container service as well 
> your going to be more inclined to use that then to get sidetracked 
> into fixing a port which is not actually what you want to do.
>
>
meh not sure i really agree here - i've seen people struggling to use 
docker in prod (both standalone as well as using Mesos/DCOS and 
Kubernetes) and really they spend more time fighting their tools than 
actually administrating and understanding their infrastructure.  The 
DCOS team has done *3* complete delete/reinstall cycles because it's 
"easier than upgrading" - i.e. they have no idea as to how their 
infrastructure is actually being build.  why are they using DCOS - they 
think they want zookeeper/ha-proxy etc but have no idea as to how to 
admin it.  not really a good recipe for stable infrastructure.

the pure docker team as far as i can tell doesn't have a handle as to 
what bits their images are being built with.  oh ssl vuln we need to 
patch, well time to rebuild all our docker images and re-deploy an 
entire new stack and hope i didn't miss any systems.  oh admin left or 
cycled ssh keys, well configuration management is for fools - we'll just 
redeploy our entire docker infrastructure.

imho there may be valid use cases for jails/containers - but i've rarely 
seen it implemented correctly.  and when i do see it implemented in a 
sane manner it really does look like traditional systems architecture 
containing:

1) configuration mgmt is in place with strong auditing/reporting
2) detailed auditing of software installed using either native or 
software stack (pip, npm, etc.) packages


-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
@nomadlogicLA

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170408/eb2db13c/attachment.htm>

From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 12:52:43 2017
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:52:43 -0400
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <d756ed33-57a6-b5fe-d284-1a10d55b3907@nomadlogic.org>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJU5ZBOBmDbiWM4BbV3NjwSHux6U61L_ZbcQBNO9_31A4say3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwx4CWaPgp=x62ffFyTzn9Fg1m6ZBc26zxRXJv3mX4mcwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d756ed33-57a6-b5fe-d284-1a10d55b3907@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwx0yE+TLZsCK2XS0XgtCkhT0C7M9J0A8snV2kp32=Ocjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/08/2017 07:01, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
>>> > All
>>> >    I have a thought experiment head over to
>>> http://99percentinvisible.org/
>>> > and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it
>>> transforms
>>> > the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight
>>> with the
>>> > decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related
>>> economies
>>> > down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer
>>> > containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling
>>> > software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super
>>> > container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn
>>> interesting
>>> > to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and
>>> > administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
>>> >
>>> Too Much Automation?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> I used to work for a small web design firm that needed someone to manage
>> their TWO servers, to cram all the customers we could into one box and help
>> troubleshoot email issues, as their dedicated sysadmin. I had seriously a
>> single 100 line bash script that did my job, and the rest of the time I
>> spent tuning our phone system to improve call quality to the SF office.
>>
>> Eventually I had to quit because they couldn't make payroll during a lull
>> in acquiring customers. I don't think this position is available anymore,
>> but the good news is that the people working there continue to make great
>> custom websites. They have absolutely no need for someone in particular to
>> maintain an operating system on a given piece of hardware, and that's great
>> for their business.
>>
>> Now at my current position we have a very small team who manages quite a
>> large amount of infrastructure. Millions and millions of dollars of
>> hardware and networking. However, I've never seen any of it. Someone DOES
>> have the job of racking it all up and replacing broken hard disks on the
>> SAN, but I'll never know who or even what brand of disks they use or even
>> what type of SAN. There are fewer of these jobs per resource managed due to
>> increased efficiency, I would assume.
>>
>> So that small business admin maintaining a LAMP platform is gone. That
>> job doesn't exist. Soon enough, and it's happening right now at my
>> employer, the dedicated DevOps team also will go. Their jobs will be given
>> to three positions which will not go away.. the accountant/controller, the
>> security chief (one person), and the application developer who is also
>> interested a bit in plumbing.
>>
>> Remember what "computers" used to be when they were people? No, nobody
>> does. Yes the traditional sysadmin has been replaced by a computer program.
>> There is a rack-and-stack person and a person who designs datacenters and a
>> person who ensures uptime and someone who makes sure the VPN is up. But
>> nobody is upgrading Apache in-place and crossing their fingers.
>>
>> --
>> -jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
> Think about this: FreeBSD ports vs Fedora packages, vs Debian whatevers,
> vs mac freshports. The industry was wasting a lot of time packaging and
> re-packaging things.
>
> I used to use linux vserver which had a similar system to create
> containers:  vserver --create --name mything --ip 34.34.34.34 --src
> rsync:/myweb/server/
>
> Docker just become an easy efficient way to share packages. It lets the
> people who build the software build a package and distribute to all people
> that have docker. This is much more efficient then having every distro of
> every unix/linux build a package  ./configure && make && make install &&
> customize.
>
> That is why it is winning. Speed/cross platform/ ease of use.
>
> Take for example a piece of software like c-actor framework. The freebsd
> port struggles somewhat because none of the devs are on that platform. The
> user really does not want to take up that burden, they just want to use it.
> If a docker exists you just use that on any platform and you can deploy it
> to amazon container service as well your going to be more inclined to use
> that then to get sidetracked into fixing a port which is not actually what
> you want to do.
>
>
> meh not sure i really agree here - i've seen people struggling to use
> docker in prod (both standalone as well as using Mesos/DCOS and Kubernetes)
> and really they spend more time fighting their tools than actually
> administrating and understanding their infrastructure.  The DCOS team has
> done *3* complete delete/reinstall cycles because it's "easier than
> upgrading" - i.e. they have no idea as to how their infrastructure is
> actually being build.  why are they using DCOS - they think they want
> zookeeper/ha-proxy etc but have no idea as to how to admin it.  not really
> a good recipe for stable infrastructure.
>
> the pure docker team as far as i can tell doesn't have a handle as to what
> bits their images are being built with.  oh ssl vuln we need to patch, well
> time to rebuild all our docker images and re-deploy an entire new stack and
> hope i didn't miss any systems.  oh admin left or cycled ssh keys, well
> configuration management is for fools - we'll just redeploy our entire
> docker infrastructure.
>
> imho there may be valid use cases for jails/containers - but i've rarely
> seen it implemented correctly.  and when i do see it implemented in a sane
> manner it really does look like traditional systems architecture containing:
>
> 1) configuration mgmt is in place with strong auditing/reporting
> 2) detailed auditing of software installed using either native or software
> stack (pip, npm, etc.) packages
>
>
> -pete
>
> --
> Pete Wrightpete at nomadlogic.org
> @nomadlogicLA
>
> I 100 % agree with what you are saying. I have used DCOS packages that are
crap. They do a cookie cutter job of installing X. And do not give you a
ton of tools to manage this.

Example: I wrote this blog to use dcos to setup Cassandra
http://thelastpickle.com/blog/2016/05/07/dcos.html (I was paid to do this :)

As someone who has setup Cassandra I KNOW that dcos and this packager are
just kids toys. But I think that because I am a system admin historically
and I know Cassandra in and out.

Lets say on a scale of 1-10 a blog with setting up Cassandra on DCOS on
mesos is a 4/10. The reasons are the exact ones your are describing and
some of my own.

If I were to take a developer that did not know Cassandra and a Sysadmin
that did not know Cassandra and asked them to set it up. I can bet that the
what they would come up with after 2 weeks would be something that scores
about 2/10.

The sysadmin would spend some time hacking cloud formation stuff, the
developer would only know enough about the configuration process to setup
on laptop. No system would be in place to do rollling restarts or backups.
The sysamdmin would start grumbling about hating Java and forcing you to
switch to mongo, the CEO would start asking "why dont we just use
DynamoDB?" another person says "why dont we pay commercial company X to run
there fork of it with management tools"

Realize DCOS/Docker its like your IPAD.... It is not expandable. It is made
to throw away.

Again, I give c actor framework as an example, 9999999%of people are not at
google scale. Likely 1 instance of c-actor framework on a VM gets the job
done. DCOS docker, you click you got it. It is done in 20 minutes.  Its
crap but its done, the project might fail anyway in 2 months.

Lets do the classic system admin route.
Developer email: I need c-actor-framework installed on our systems
Admin: package tool install c-actor-framework
1 week later
Developer email: Can not find symbol error...I need version 4.4.
Admin: our packaging only supports 4.2. Ill look into this.
Admin: hacks at port. maybe sends pr to someone to fix port....maybe not
Admin: Ok now its ready
Developer: thanks:
1 month later:
We have decided to use aka not the c-actor framework... can you install
that now? :)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170408/04fbe80a/attachment.htm>

From edlinuxguru at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 13:15:24 2017
From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:15:24 -0400
Subject: [talk] Containerization
In-Reply-To: <d756ed33-57a6-b5fe-d284-1a10d55b3907@nomadlogic.org>
References: <8B77C37B-EC5F-4A51-96AD-F8543757A2A3@ymail.com>
 <CA+6mNeqyJtnN6FGmSYJPR=tROPJggcBbJa0tQr1OcRgPPtjYZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJU5ZBOBmDbiWM4BbV3NjwSHux6U61L_ZbcQBNO9_31A4say3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAENxBwx4CWaPgp=x62ffFyTzn9Fg1m6ZBc26zxRXJv3mX4mcwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d756ed33-57a6-b5fe-d284-1a10d55b3907@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <CAENxBwwZDqp8PkAYOBXg9n8Cmaq5+DBnDSf2fsLkoEH1Kibvrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 04/08/2017 07:01, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 12:19 AM, Sujit K M <kmsujit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
>>> > All
>>> >    I have a thought experiment head over to
>>> http://99percentinvisible.org/
>>> > and listen to the current talk on containerization ; and how it
>>> transforms
>>> > the dock cities . It has some good background on 70's urban blight
>>> with the
>>> > decline of the dock worker jobs and how this drags the related
>>> economies
>>> > down .  So now think about how this works with regards to computer
>>> > containers. Does docker / vms supplant the old way of by hand rolling
>>> > software ? Do we loose admin jobs like we lost longshoreman? Is a super
>>> > container ship on the horizon for operating systems. It's damn
>>> interesting
>>> > to think about . Does the shipping industry parallel developers and
>>> > administrators dealing with docker and vms ? You decide .
>>> >
>>> Too Much Automation?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> I used to work for a small web design firm that needed someone to manage
>> their TWO servers, to cram all the customers we could into one box and help
>> troubleshoot email issues, as their dedicated sysadmin. I had seriously a
>> single 100 line bash script that did my job, and the rest of the time I
>> spent tuning our phone system to improve call quality to the SF office.
>>
>> Eventually I had to quit because they couldn't make payroll during a lull
>> in acquiring customers. I don't think this position is available anymore,
>> but the good news is that the people working there continue to make great
>> custom websites. They have absolutely no need for someone in particular to
>> maintain an operating system on a given piece of hardware, and that's great
>> for their business.
>>
>> Now at my current position we have a very small team who manages quite a
>> large amount of infrastructure. Millions and millions of dollars of
>> hardware and networking. However, I've never seen any of it. Someone DOES
>> have the job of racking it all up and replacing broken hard disks on the
>> SAN, but I'll never know who or even what brand of disks they use or even
>> what type of SAN. There are fewer of these jobs per resource managed due to
>> increased efficiency, I would assume.
>>
>> So that small business admin maintaining a LAMP platform is gone. That
>> job doesn't exist. Soon enough, and it's happening right now at my
>> employer, the dedicated DevOps team also will go. Their jobs will be given
>> to three positions which will not go away.. the accountant/controller, the
>> security chief (one person), and the application developer who is also
>> interested a bit in plumbing.
>>
>> Remember what "computers" used to be when they were people? No, nobody
>> does. Yes the traditional sysadmin has been replaced by a computer program.
>> There is a rack-and-stack person and a person who designs datacenters and a
>> person who ensures uptime and someone who makes sure the VPN is up. But
>> nobody is upgrading Apache in-place and crossing their fingers.
>>
>> --
>> -jesse
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
> Think about this: FreeBSD ports vs Fedora packages, vs Debian whatevers,
> vs mac freshports. The industry was wasting a lot of time packaging and
> re-packaging things.
>
> I used to use linux vserver which had a similar system to create
> containers:  vserver --create --name mything --ip 34.34.34.34 --src
> rsync:/myweb/server/
>
> Docker just become an easy efficient way to share packages. It lets the
> people who build the software build a package and distribute to all people
> that have docker. This is much more efficient then having every distro of
> every unix/linux build a package  ./configure && make && make install &&
> customize.
>
> That is why it is winning. Speed/cross platform/ ease of use.
>
> Take for example a piece of software like c-actor framework. The freebsd
> port struggles somewhat because none of the devs are on that platform. The
> user really does not want to take up that burden, they just want to use it.
> If a docker exists you just use that on any platform and you can deploy it
> to amazon container service as well your going to be more inclined to use
> that then to get sidetracked into fixing a port which is not actually what
> you want to do.
>
>
> meh not sure i really agree here - i've seen people struggling to use
> docker in prod (both standalone as well as using Mesos/DCOS and Kubernetes)
> and really they spend more time fighting their tools than actually
> administrating and understanding their infrastructure.  The DCOS team has
> done *3* complete delete/reinstall cycles because it's "easier than
> upgrading" - i.e. they have no idea as to how their infrastructure is
> actually being build.  why are they using DCOS - they think they want
> zookeeper/ha-proxy etc but have no idea as to how to admin it.  not really
> a good recipe for stable infrastructure.
>
> the pure docker team as far as i can tell doesn't have a handle as to what
> bits their images are being built with.  oh ssl vuln we need to patch, well
> time to rebuild all our docker images and re-deploy an entire new stack and
> hope i didn't miss any systems.  oh admin left or cycled ssh keys, well
> configuration management is for fools - we'll just redeploy our entire
> docker infrastructure.
>
> imho there may be valid use cases for jails/containers - but i've rarely
> seen it implemented correctly.  and when i do see it implemented in a sane
> manner it really does look like traditional systems architecture containing:
>
> 1) configuration mgmt is in place with strong auditing/reporting
> 2) detailed auditing of software installed using either native or software
> stack (pip, npm, etc.) packages
>
>
> -pete
>
> --
> Pete Wrightpete at nomadlogic.org
> @nomadlogicLA
>
> "the pure docker team as far as i can tell doesn't have a handle as to
what bits their images are being built with.  oh ssl vuln we need to patch,
well time to rebuild all our docker images and re-deploy an entire new
stack and hope i didn't miss any systems.  oh admin left or cycled ssh
keys, well configuration management is for fools - we'll just redeploy our
entire docker infrastructure."

Also one note: From the developer side. I have a new theory it is called
the "use cool shit before auditors understand it" theory. The theory is
quite simple:
If you run a standard server your auditors have tools that you MUST run.
tools that scan for vulnerabilities, tools that look if you can log in as
root. Make sure the database in encrypted at rest.  No one wants to deal
with these audits.
So if you use DCOS on Mesos, why? THE ENTIRE THING IS SO NEW THAT NO ONE
UNDERSTAND IT AND NO AUDIT TOOLS EXISTS, SO ITS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE TO WORK
AND DO COOL SH!T WITHOUT AN ARMY OF PEOPLE FORCING YOU TO FILL OUT CHECK
BOXES LEFT AND RIGHT!

Here is how it works.
SSH server requires patching. Move entire app to docker mesos. There IS NO
SSH SERVER!
Auditor wants list of everyone with login access to database. There is NO
LOGIN ACCESS!

As soon as companies start making audit tools for docker and mesos the
auditors will start ruining that too...

Get ready to move to Lambda!

Crap now hashicorp is making some tool to sell to auditors to manage
Lambda!!

Move to this https://cloudi.org/

Just keep moving to stay one step ahead checkbox compliance army...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170408/fdf3742b/attachment.htm>

From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Fri Apr 14 18:49:31 2017
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:49:31 -0400
Subject: [talk] X11 setup, basic question
Message-ID: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>

Hey All,

---------
WONDERFUL

FreeBSD REL on a Lenovo X230, had X11 working GREAT.  Suspend/resume
working great, (using devd to trigger 'acpiconf -s 3' on lid close, [was
never working when twiddling hw.acpi.lid_switch_state]).

Been working like a champ for a couple months, enjoying really living
with ZFS on my laptop for the first time ever.  Like almost enjoying
this as much as I enjoyed OpenBSD on this rig.

-------
PROBLEM

I ran freebsd-update and complete pkg upgrades today, (last time was
2weeks ago) and all went to hell.

# uname -a
FreeBSD ...11.0-RELEASE-p9 FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p9 #0: Tue Apr 11
08:48:40 UTC 2017    
root at amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  amd64

List of broken bits:
- x11 would not light (using xfce)
  - display 0 issue, completely removed old /etc/xorg.conf and x11 lit
- x11 will not exit, just goes to a blue screen and freezes
- lenovo fn keys like brightness no longer work,
  (xbacklight also throwing error "No outputs have backlight property")
- suspend/resume no longer lights the display, but appear to wake the system
  (I haven't seen that problem in some time)

---------
QUESTIONS

Tabula rasa, I feel starting from scratch with X is in order.
Has anyone seen any good tutorials covering setup of lenovo laptops
using FreeBSD?  (Modern stuff, not old 8.x/9.x era stuff- which there is
plenty of online...)

Or, does anyone have any pointers on how I could have screwed up here? 
(e.g. I could have missed some critical message during my updates, but I
have no idea where I missed it?!)

Any thoughts or notes much appreciated- it's a real bummer to hoze one's
laptop...

Best,
.ike





From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Fri Apr 14 19:53:29 2017
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:53:29 -0400
Subject: [talk] X11 setup, basic question
In-Reply-To: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>
References: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>
Message-ID: <654c1d48-a914-5465-51bd-ba1883d827f3@blackskyresearch.net>

Hi All,

So I fixed it!  Was missing a package:

xf86-video-intel-2.99.917.20170228 Driver for Intel integrated graphics
chipsets

I'm at a loss as to how it dissappeared, (or if it was even installed in
the first place).

Anyhow, suspend/resume back to working, screen lights back up and dims,
orignal xorg.conf working again, everything fine.

--
Now a better question: X11 - will any open source replacement emerge in
our lifetime?  I mean like a total replacement.

I got pretty comfy/lazy with Macs over the years, and X still causes me
grief.  As a user, OpenBSD X11 was far less prone to total-meltdown, and
far better documented and cleaned up- but still X.

Best,
.ike



On 04/14/17 18:49, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
>
> ---------
> WONDERFUL
>
> FreeBSD REL on a Lenovo X230, had X11 working GREAT.  Suspend/resume
> working great, (using devd to trigger 'acpiconf -s 3' on lid close, [was
> never working when twiddling hw.acpi.lid_switch_state]).
>
> Been working like a champ for a couple months, enjoying really living
> with ZFS on my laptop for the first time ever.  Like almost enjoying
> this as much as I enjoyed OpenBSD on this rig.
>
> -------
> PROBLEM
>
> I ran freebsd-update and complete pkg upgrades today, (last time was
> 2weeks ago) and all went to hell.
>
> # uname -a
> FreeBSD ...11.0-RELEASE-p9 FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p9 #0: Tue Apr 11
> 08:48:40 UTC 2017    
> root at amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  amd64
>
> List of broken bits:
> - x11 would not light (using xfce)
>   - display 0 issue, completely removed old /etc/xorg.conf and x11 lit
> - x11 will not exit, just goes to a blue screen and freezes
> - lenovo fn keys like brightness no longer work,
>   (xbacklight also throwing error "No outputs have backlight property")
> - suspend/resume no longer lights the display, but appear to wake the system
>   (I haven't seen that problem in some time)
>
> ---------
> QUESTIONS
>
> Tabula rasa, I feel starting from scratch with X is in order.
> Has anyone seen any good tutorials covering setup of lenovo laptops
> using FreeBSD?  (Modern stuff, not old 8.x/9.x era stuff- which there is
> plenty of online...)
>
> Or, does anyone have any pointers on how I could have screwed up here? 
> (e.g. I could have missed some critical message during my updates, but I
> have no idea where I missed it?!)
>
> Any thoughts or notes much appreciated- it's a real bummer to hoze one's
> laptop...
>
> Best,
> .ike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From mark.saad at ymail.com  Fri Apr 14 20:30:05 2017
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:30:05 -0400
Subject: [talk] X11 setup, basic question
In-Reply-To: <654c1d48-a914-5465-51bd-ba1883d827f3@blackskyresearch.net>
References: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>
 <654c1d48-a914-5465-51bd-ba1883d827f3@blackskyresearch.net>
Message-ID: <C58139E5-93A7-4C40-A758-51EC5D2F1C63@ymail.com>


Hi Ike

> On Apr 14, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy <ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> So I fixed it!  Was missing a package:
> 
> xf86-video-intel-2.99.917.20170228 Driver for Intel integrated graphics
> chipsets
> 
> I'm at a loss as to how it dissappeared, (or if it was even installed in
> the first place).
> 
 I had this same issue ; it looks like the latest xorg package depends were a little wacky . So here is what I tracked down .

I was using slim for a login manager and it changed from needing a .xinitrc to a .xsession this bit me.

Also newer xorg has supports modesettings over xorg drivers . My old static xorg file didn't work . I am not sure exactly what changed but nukeing it worked for me as well .


> Anyhow, suspend/resume back to working, screen lights back up and dims,
> orignal xorg.conf working again, everything fine.
> 
> --
> Now a better question: X11 - will any open source replacement emerge in
> our lifetime?  I mean like a total replacement.

Wayland is in ports . But no idea what the state is 
> 
> I got pretty comfy/lazy with Macs over the years, and X still causes me
> grief.  As a user, OpenBSD X11 was far less prone to total-meltdown, and
> far better documented and cleaned up- but still X.

I agree but the reason is clear for me . Openbsd support a version of xorg for each release. FreeBSD potentially supports a bunch of them ; via ports and now pkgng. So the breakage is to be accepted imho .  Maybe it's time for stable / long term ports . 
> 
> Best,
> .ike
> 
> 
> 
>> On 04/14/17 18:49, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>> Hey All,
>> 
>> ---------
>> WONDERFUL
>> 
>> FreeBSD REL on a Lenovo X230, had X11 working GREAT.  Suspend/resume
>> working great, (using devd to trigger 'acpiconf -s 3' on lid close, [was
>> never working when twiddling hw.acpi.lid_switch_state]).
>> 
>> Been working like a champ for a couple months, enjoying really living
>> with ZFS on my laptop for the first time ever.  Like almost enjoying
>> this as much as I enjoyed OpenBSD on this rig.
>> 
>> -------
>> PROBLEM
>> 
>> I ran freebsd-update and complete pkg upgrades today, (last time was
>> 2weeks ago) and all went to hell.
>> 
>> # uname -a
>> FreeBSD ...11.0-RELEASE-p9 FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p9 #0: Tue Apr 11
>> 08:48:40 UTC 2017    
>> root at amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  amd64
>> 
>> List of broken bits:
>> - x11 would not light (using xfce)
>>  - display 0 issue, completely removed old /etc/xorg.conf and x11 lit
>> - x11 will not exit, just goes to a blue screen and freezes
>> - lenovo fn keys like brightness no longer work,
>>  (xbacklight also throwing error "No outputs have backlight property")
>> - suspend/resume no longer lights the display, but appear to wake the system
>>  (I haven't seen that problem in some time)
>> 
>> ---------
>> QUESTIONS
>> 
>> Tabula rasa, I feel starting from scratch with X is in order.
>> Has anyone seen any good tutorials covering setup of lenovo laptops
>> using FreeBSD?  (Modern stuff, not old 8.x/9.x era stuff- which there is
>> plenty of online...)
>> 
>> Or, does anyone have any pointers on how I could have screwed up here? 
>> (e.g. I could have missed some critical message during my updates, but I
>> have no idea where I missed it?!)
>> 
>> Any thoughts or notes much appreciated- it's a real bummer to hoze one's
>> laptop...
>> 
>> Best,
>> .ike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


---
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com


From fire at firecrow.com  Fri Apr 14 23:56:56 2017
From: fire at firecrow.com (fire crow)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:56:56 -0400
Subject: [talk] X11 setup, basic question
In-Reply-To: <CAH=cS8EYD=mxD=cLR_mJ_cqrPPp+Pi-kuDA1XDbToEoo23_G=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>
 <654c1d48-a914-5465-51bd-ba1883d827f3@blackskyresearch.net>
 <C58139E5-93A7-4C40-A758-51EC5D2F1C63@ymail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EYD=mxD=cLR_mJ_cqrPPp+Pi-kuDA1XDbToEoo23_G=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=cS8F9ouk6aCpW+2hDT0uOFaLiULDx0dKzf5cWUUw81GByhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Apr 14, 2017 8:45 PM, "Mark Saad" <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:


Hi Ike

> On Apr 14, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy <ike at blackskyresearch.net>
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> So I fixed it!  Was missing a package:
>
> xf86-video-intel-2.99.917.20170228 Driver for Intel integrated graphics
> chipsets
>
> I'm at a loss as to how it dissappeared, (or if it was even installed in
> the first place).
>

I'm glad you found it, i was going to suggest comeing through the xorg
logs, for me it was referend to as int10 for the onboard intel card, which
id didnt think i had because my main card was nvidia, intel was the
integrates chip on the board but still required for X.

~fire

 I had this same issue ; it looks like the latest xorg package depends were
a little wacky . So here is what I tracked down .

I was using slim for a login manager and it changed from needing a .xinitrc
to a .xsession this bit me.

Also newer xorg has supports modesettings over xorg drivers . My old static
xorg file didn't work . I am not sure exactly what changed but nukeing it
worked for me as well .


> Anyhow, suspend/resume back to working, screen lights back up and dims,
> orignal xorg.conf working again, everything fine.
>
> --
> Now a better question: X11 - will any open source replacement emerge in
> our lifetime?  I mean like a total replacement.

Wayland is in ports . But no idea what the state is
>
> I got pretty comfy/lazy with Macs over the years, and X still causes me
> grief.  As a user, OpenBSD X11 was far less prone to total-meltdown, and
> far better documented and cleaned up- but still X.

I agree but the reason is clear for me . Openbsd support a version of xorg
for each release. FreeBSD potentially supports a bunch of them ; via ports
and now pkgng. So the breakage is to be accepted imho .  Maybe it's time
for stable / long term ports .
>
> Best,
> .ike
>
>
>
>> On 04/14/17 18:49, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>> Hey All,
>>
>> ---------
>> WONDERFUL
>>
>> FreeBSD REL on a Lenovo X230, had X11 working GREAT.  Suspend/resume
>> working great, (using devd to trigger 'acpiconf -s 3' on lid close, [was
>> never working when twiddling hw.acpi.lid_switch_state]).
>>
>> Been working like a champ for a couple months, enjoying really living
>> with ZFS on my laptop for the first time ever.  Like almost enjoying
>> this as much as I enjoyed OpenBSD on this rig.
>>
>> -------
>> PROBLEM
>>
>> I ran freebsd-update and complete pkg upgrades today, (last time was
>> 2weeks ago) and all went to hell.
>>
>> # uname -a
>> FreeBSD ...11.0-RELEASE-p9 FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p9 #0: Tue Apr 11
>> 08:48:40 UTC 2017
>> root at amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  amd64
>>
>> List of broken bits:
>> - x11 would not light (using xfce)
>>  - display 0 issue, completely removed old /etc/xorg.conf and x11 lit
>> - x11 will not exit, just goes to a blue screen and freezes
>> - lenovo fn keys like brightness no longer work,
>>  (xbacklight also throwing error "No outputs have backlight property")
>> - suspend/resume no longer lights the display, but appear to wake the
system
>>  (I haven't seen that problem in some time)
>>
>> ---------
>> QUESTIONS
>>
>> Tabula rasa, I feel starting from scratch with X is in order.
>> Has anyone seen any good tutorials covering setup of lenovo laptops
>> using FreeBSD?  (Modern stuff, not old 8.x/9.x era stuff- which there is
>> plenty of online...)
>>
>> Or, does anyone have any pointers on how I could have screwed up here?
>> (e.g. I could have missed some critical message during my updates, but I
>> have no idea where I missed it?!)
>>
>> Any thoughts or notes much appreciated- it's a real bummer to hoze one's
>> laptop...
>>
>> Best,
>> .ike
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


---
Mark Saad | mark.saad at ymail.com
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170414/f0bbe917/attachment.htm>

From fire at firecrow.com  Sat Apr 15 00:12:33 2017
From: fire at firecrow.com (fire crow)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 00:12:33 -0400
Subject: [talk] X not yeilding to console view
In-Reply-To: <CAH=cS8E0LA55WbDkj3_Ldu2dd0nsDMDMrx09771S5NqeX9m1og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=cS8F_A1QNYcUyBoVXMoQquOjQh=Qa7FOzhKrrJOvGyN9wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8HLFYBs6Y9u6OPn0tcxpWn-5nCi1+JfmA7r=qehG9ZP1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8Eyob4yM3x_DBbBtvqF2pcyznfAefcbECSbjrupBtDY2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8HQ++OT4fs-YFke30bfxea5p82fQUyu36vYhjdh2+0Jiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EDXAP=+GEU1zuUT0FCT1jwWx5JY-xqvptMB9K-ENTrOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8GY2MX8tCHL06H36Z6phFzevdsabCTM4sEJQ59ETgT9qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8FE_hBcXaavfAeJ-A0N1vcocW2GkcVv1eHkdq7Hj9LjCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EXt+M4UMuU8AjhF8YkaFj0Toi_BNoco-s4OVcpCTNdjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EtiUHX_mKd9=Y5=WXrx9wM13Xd5KCe+uc5xvqvCuTfkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8FSZsZxt+2BkSOMY+8VqODn4R6Z1ECHNrU0uJGYU_mddQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8HSjkr1oPgeiKSiBkzCJtxNy6+sdui619qMXS6woRUgcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8GcU_cxLP=8Vk7UTrcW34y3QVsbLG9da+pe-ov0bRX5eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8E0LA55WbDkj3_Ldu2dd0nsDMDMrx09771S5NqeX9m1og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=cS8GM9ykpACVV9Xf-S2qJ4dgyEXYYpdwLFngLbDJ-hdvgaw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
Have an X situation as well, for me X boots up fine and works, but does not
gracefully resort back to a text console view as it shuts down or from
C-ALT-F2.  I installed the vesa driver but without any luck.

Lenovo 100S-14/freebsd 12

Its been a challenge to get freebsd on this box, getting uefi to boot, wifi
driver, and getting the installer to see the embedded emmc. Fortunately
current had it all worked.

Its a great little laptop now that i have it working... mostly.

~fire
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170415/a1502e96/attachment.htm>

From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Sat Apr 15 21:26:11 2017
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 21:26:11 -0400
Subject: [talk] X not yeilding to console view
In-Reply-To: <CAH=cS8GM9ykpACVV9Xf-S2qJ4dgyEXYYpdwLFngLbDJ-hdvgaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH=cS8F_A1QNYcUyBoVXMoQquOjQh=Qa7FOzhKrrJOvGyN9wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8HLFYBs6Y9u6OPn0tcxpWn-5nCi1+JfmA7r=qehG9ZP1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8Eyob4yM3x_DBbBtvqF2pcyznfAefcbECSbjrupBtDY2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8HQ++OT4fs-YFke30bfxea5p82fQUyu36vYhjdh2+0Jiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EDXAP=+GEU1zuUT0FCT1jwWx5JY-xqvptMB9K-ENTrOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8GY2MX8tCHL06H36Z6phFzevdsabCTM4sEJQ59ETgT9qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8FE_hBcXaavfAeJ-A0N1vcocW2GkcVv1eHkdq7Hj9LjCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EXt+M4UMuU8AjhF8YkaFj0Toi_BNoco-s4OVcpCTNdjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8EtiUHX_mKd9=Y5=WXrx9wM13Xd5KCe+uc5xvqvCuTfkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8FSZsZxt+2BkSOMY+8VqODn4R6Z1ECHNrU0uJGYU_mddQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8HSjkr1oPgeiKSiBkzCJtxNy6+sdui619qMXS6woRUgcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8GcU_cxLP=8Vk7UTrcW34y3QVsbLG9da+pe-ov0bRX5eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8E0LA55WbDkj3_Ldu2dd0nsDMDMrx09771S5NqeX9m1og@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=cS8GM9ykpACVV9Xf-S2qJ4dgyEXYYpdwLFngLbDJ-hdvgaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25d9418f-14ce-3a75-d3c5-3c9f2dff5b38@blackskyresearch.net>

Word,

On 04/15/17 00:12, fire crow wrote:
> Hi all,
> Have an X situation as well, for me X boots up fine and works, but
> does not gracefully resort back to a text console view as it shuts
> down or from C-ALT-F2.  I installed the vesa driver but without any luck.
I've had the exact same problem but ignored it for some months:
Lenovo X230, FreeBSD 11-REL.

Perhaps this helps:
I have foggy memories of solving this some years ago (on vastly
different hardware), by doing some reload via vidcontrol(1) or
syscons(4) action.

Again, I'm currently ignoring this problem but if I get a moment to hack
it to working I'll definitely post here.

Best,
.ike



>
> Lenovo 100S-14/freebsd 12
>
> Its been a challenge to get freebsd on this box, getting uefi to boot,
> wifi driver, and getting the installer to see the embedded emmc.
> Fortunately current had it all worked.
>
> Its a great little laptop now that i have it working... mostly.
>
> ~fire
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk




From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Fri Apr 14 22:02:23 2017
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:02:23 -0400
Subject: [talk] X11 setup, basic question
In-Reply-To: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>
References: <c4e7fe6b-06a4-b1c1-69e1-4b386bd56269@blackskyresearch.net>
Message-ID: <20170415020223.GB28556@scott1.scottro.net>

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 06:49:31PM -0400, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
> 
> ---------
> WONDERFUL
> 
> FreeBSD REL on a Lenovo X230, had X11 working GREAT.  Suspend/resume
> working great, (using devd to trigger 'acpiconf -s 3' on lid close, [was
> never working when twiddling hw.acpi.lid_switch_state]).
> 
> -------
> PROBLEM
> 
> I ran freebsd-update and complete pkg upgrades today, (last time was
> 2weeks ago) and all went to hell.
> 
> 
> ---------
> QUESTIONS
> 
> Tabula rasa, I feel starting from scratch with X is in order.
> Has anyone seen any good tutorials covering setup of lenovo laptops
> using FreeBSD?  (Modern stuff, not old 8.x/9.x era stuff- which there is
> plenty of online...)


Later Intel cards aren't yet working that well with FreeBSD. So I'm
actually surprised that yours did. 

I have a Lenovo yoga2 with a Haswell ULT.  I have a page about the yoga,
http://srobb.net/yoga2.html which goes through the details.  Short
overview, install CURRENT, then pull the drm-next-4.7, rebuild kernel, (I
prefer NO-DEBUG), and the Intel driver will work. I'm guessing this is an
Intel card, if not, then all I've posted here is meaningless.

If you do feel it might be useful, just search for finally got video on the
page. :)

I'm not sure how useful this is to you though, as you did have it working
on 11.0-p8  which I wasn't able to do with the yoga2. 


-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From freebsd at fongaboo.com  Tue Apr 18 11:32:13 2017
From: freebsd at fongaboo.com (Fongaboo)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:32:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [talk] Trying to recreate a 10.2 machine?
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704181130430.49480@h4lix.wtfayla.net>


Hello FreeBSD friends... I thought I might share this with you to 
see if anyone has any knowledge they can share...

https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/663idb/trying_to_recreate_a_102_machine/

> Trying to recreate a 10.2 machine? (self.freebsd)
> 
> submitted 3 minutes ago by fongaboo
> 
> I have a production machine running 10.2. When we last attempted freebsdupdate and pkg update, a bunch of software we had installed broke. We were able to roll things back with a ZFS snapshot thank god.
>
> We've since been given some steps to take with our particular software that will allow us to otherwise upgrade things. But I still don't want to try it first on the production machine. So I've created an Amazon EC2 instance with a 10.2 AMI, and am attempting to install everything the same as we have on the production machine, best I can... So that I can then attempt the upgrade in this safe space first.
>
> Problem is, even though I've installed FreeBSD 10.2 on this instance, it seems to be using newer ports in the ports collection. For this to be an effective endeavor, I really need to install the versions of the software  that would have installed in 2015/2016. Dependencies are failing when I try to make install, so it's an actual problem.
>
> When I first launched the instance, I ran portsnap fetch/update. Is there some way I could either roll back to a snapshot and run portsnap again with a modifier to get circa 2015 ports collection? Or could I somehow individually modify the make command to get the versions of software packages that match the production machine?
>
> I've tried portdowngrade but it doesn't seem to have the correct versions of some of the ports that are being problematic.

P.S. The software combo involved is pretty much FAMP, as described here: http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=4


TIA



From bonsaime at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 12:57:35 2017
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:57:35 -0700
Subject: [talk] Trying to recreate a 10.2 machine?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704181130430.49480@h4lix.wtfayla.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704181130430.49480@h4lix.wtfayla.net>
Message-ID: <CAJU5ZBOMs2mMgxZAw6KD-6L7aXi76=tR0DB-2pe0bo+enQNLfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Fongaboo <freebsd at fongaboo.com> wrote:

>
> Hello FreeBSD friends... I thought I might share this with you to see if
> anyone has any knowledge they can share...
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/663idb/trying_to_
> recreate_a_102_machine/
>
> Trying to recreate a 10.2 machine? (self.freebsd)
>>
>> submitted 3 minutes ago by fongaboo
>>
>> I have a production machine running 10.2. When we last attempted
>> freebsdupdate and pkg update, a bunch of software we had installed broke.
>> We were able to roll things back with a ZFS snapshot thank god.
>>
>> We've since been given some steps to take with our particular software
>> that will allow us to otherwise upgrade things. But I still don't want to
>> try it first on the production machine. So I've created an Amazon EC2
>> instance with a 10.2 AMI, and am attempting to install everything the same
>> as we have on the production machine, best I can... So that I can then
>> attempt the upgrade in this safe space first.
>>
>> Problem is, even though I've installed FreeBSD 10.2 on this instance, it
>> seems to be using newer ports in the ports collection. For this to be an
>> effective endeavor, I really need to install the versions of the software
>> that would have installed in 2015/2016. Dependencies are failing when I try
>> to make install, so it's an actual problem.
>>
>> When I first launched the instance, I ran portsnap fetch/update. Is there
>> some way I could either roll back to a snapshot and run portsnap again with
>> a modifier to get circa 2015 ports collection? Or could I somehow
>> individually modify the make command to get the versions of software
>> packages that match the production machine?
>>
>> I've tried portdowngrade but it doesn't seem to have the correct versions
>> of some of the ports that are being problematic.
>>
>
> P.S. The software combo involved is pretty much FAMP, as described here:
> http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=4
>
>
> TIA
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

Do you have a backup of the machine you're trying to clone? I'd take that
ZFS snapshot and somehow get it written out to the test box rather than
trying to script it to be similar. Then you can either do rollbacks in ZFS
on the test box, or just cookie-cutter clone new test boxes in attempts to
get a successful upgrade process.

-- 
-jesse
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170418/10762c20/attachment.htm>

From freebsd at fongaboo.com  Sun Apr 23 17:23:24 2017
From: freebsd at fongaboo.com (Fongaboo)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:23:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [talk] Trying to recreate a 10.2 machine?
In-Reply-To: <CAJU5ZBOMs2mMgxZAw6KD-6L7aXi76=tR0DB-2pe0bo+enQNLfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704181130430.49480@h4lix.wtfayla.net>
 <CAJU5ZBOMs2mMgxZAw6KD-6L7aXi76=tR0DB-2pe0bo+enQNLfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1704231719400.49480@h4lix.wtfayla.net>


Good idea except ZFS-on-root isn't an easy thing to achieve on Amazon EC2. 
I had been looking into it, but would involve conjuring up my own AMI, 
which is a mission all its own. I was looking to do ZFS originally for 
snapshotting, but realized I could easily use the host ECS snapshotting 
that AWS offers.

I ended up getting the following advice and it worked well:

> Either use the packages from the DVD or wipe out /usr/ports and unpack 
> ports.txz from the distribution (it will be in /usr/freebsd-dist in the 
> ISO image, tar xf foo.iso usr/freebsd-dist/ports.txz will get it for
> you, then tar xf usr/freebsd-dist/ports.txz -C / to unpack it).



On Tue, 18 Apr 2017, Jesse Callaway wrote:

> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Fongaboo <freebsd at fongaboo.com> wrote:
>
>       Hello FreeBSD friends... I thought I might share this with you to see if anyone has any knowledge they can share...
>
>       https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/663idb/trying_to_recreate_a_102_machine/
>
>             Trying to recreate a 10.2 machine? (self.freebsd)
>
>             submitted 3 minutes ago by fongaboo
>
>             I have a production machine running 10.2. When we last attempted freebsdupdate and pkg update, a bunch of software
>             we had installed broke. We were able to roll things back with a ZFS snapshot thank god.
>
>             We've since been given some steps to take with our particular software that will allow us to otherwise upgrade
>             things. But I still don't want to try it first on the production machine. So I've created an Amazon EC2 instance
>             with a 10.2 AMI, and am attempting to install everything the same as we have on the production machine, best I
>             can... So that I can then attempt the upgrade in this safe space first.
>
>             Problem is, even though I've installed FreeBSD 10.2 on this instance, it seems to be using newer ports in the ports
>             collection. For this to be an effective endeavor, I really need to install the versions of the software? that would
>             have installed in 2015/2016. Dependencies are failing when I try to make install, so it's an actual problem.
>
>             When I first launched the instance, I ran portsnap fetch/update. Is there some way I could either roll back to a
>             snapshot and run portsnap again with a modifier to get circa 2015 ports collection? Or could I somehow individually
>             modify the make command to get the versions of software packages that match the production machine?
>
>             I've tried portdowngrade but it doesn't seem to have the correct versions of some of the ports that are being
>             problematic.
> 
>
>       P.S. The software combo involved is pretty much FAMP, as described here: http://www.purplehat.org/?page_id=4
> 
>
>       TIA
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       talk mailing list
>       talk at lists.nycbug.org
>       http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> Do you have a backup of the machine you're trying to clone? I'd take that ZFS snapshot and somehow get it written out to the test box rather
> than trying to script it to be similar. Then you can either do rollbacks in ZFS on the test box, or just cookie-cutter clone new test boxes
> in attempts to get a successful upgrade process.
> 
> --
> -jesse
> 
>

From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Mon Apr 24 13:01:29 2017
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:01:29 -0400
Subject: [talk] Biannual BSD on Laptops Thread
Message-ID: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Hi All,

Now that I finally have both FreeBSD and OpenBSD happily
sleeping/resuming on my lenovo X230, I'm using it pretty heavily and
HATE the display.  Terrible for graphics work and frustrating for me to
use in dim light.  Really great display in a lit room, if you wish
others not to shoulder surf...   Anyhow, I can't take it any more.

Next thing, it's 2017, and USBC.  Holy cow, evil all around.
I'm *sortof* barely learning to live with the lack of Ethernet on
laptops, but they mostly all seem to be USBC for POWER.
Whomever thought a DMA wire protocol would be acceptable for POWERING
your rig, should be taken out and beaten in the public square.  (Can't
wait until we see USBC/Thunderbolt data-blocking cables hit the street.)

So, on to the laptops, I've narrowed it down to two (three really),
choices, and wanted to see if anyone here had words on them:

- Dell XPS 13, and XPS 15
I can't believe I'm considering a Dell laptop, but wow these look nice. 
Breaking with the entire industry, they appear to have deep
repair/service documentation, with full tear-down instructions for every
component.
RAM is soldered on board, (as with most things now), but the HDD is M.2
standard- which I can totally live with.
Big negative: USBC is the power port, just like new toy Mac hardware.
At least it *has* regular USB ports. :)

- Lenovo X1 Carbon (5th generation?)
These seem similar to the Dell models, thin and light.
Big negative: HDD is proprietary variation of M.2 mini-sata thingamabop.
 This is nearly a deal breaker for me.
Also negative, the bios/hardware-lock-in for things like wireless cards
etc... is a PITA.
Big positive: Power does not appear to be USBC, (I think?)
Also positive, these appear better supported by at least OpenBSD folks-
anyone confirming this here?

- Another Lenovo, X270
These are still a bit oldschool, ("the pointer nub"), with a newschool
keyboard (I like).
Positive: Still onboard ETHERNET!  WHEE!!!!  Also, has both MSATA and
SATA HDD bays, so like my good old x230, I can have SSD boot media, and
a cheap/big/slow HDD for a ton of storage without carrying external
drives.  Been living like this for 2 years and love the combo.
Also positive, I'm pretty sure more regular *BSD folks will keep using
this line of machine, so I expect it to be supported quite well
eventually, (if it's not already).
Negative: it's still kindof big, and the display isn't as excellent as
the other two options.  I'm looking for parity/similarity to the Apple
rigs with retina displays, so, meh...

Anyone have any thoughts here?  Andy experiences good or bad?

Rocket-
.ike







From pete at nomadlogic.org  Mon Apr 24 13:59:08 2017
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:59:08 -0700
Subject: [talk] Biannual BSD on Laptops Thread
In-Reply-To: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <86b8ed57-4f75-e381-7e19-2cb7ce56643c@nomadlogic.org>



On 04/24/2017 10:01, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Now that I finally have both FreeBSD and OpenBSD happily
> sleeping/resuming on my lenovo X230, I'm using it pretty heavily and
> HATE the display.  Terrible for graphics work and frustrating for me to
> use in dim light.  Really great display in a lit room, if you wish
> others not to shoulder surf...   Anyhow, I can't take it any more.
>
> Next thing, it's 2017, and USBC.  Holy cow, evil all around.
> I'm *sortof* barely learning to live with the lack of Ethernet on
> laptops, but they mostly all seem to be USBC for POWER.
> Whomever thought a DMA wire protocol would be acceptable for POWERING
> your rig, should be taken out and beaten in the public square.  (Can't
> wait until we see USBC/Thunderbolt data-blocking cables hit the street.)
>
> So, on to the laptops, I've narrowed it down to two (three really),
> choices, and wanted to see if anyone here had words on them:
>
> - Dell XPS 13, and XPS 15
> I can't believe I'm considering a Dell laptop, but wow these look nice.
> Breaking with the entire industry, they appear to have deep
> repair/service documentation, with full tear-down instructions for every
> component.
> RAM is soldered on board, (as with most things now), but the HDD is M.2
> standard- which I can totally live with.
> Big negative: USBC is the power port, just like new toy Mac hardware.
> At least it *has* regular USB ports. :)

man i ran into the same conundrum a few weeks ago - IT forced McAfee on 
my macbook which was the final straw.  I was really close to picking up 
a xps 15 despite my *massive* reservations of ever giving money to dell 
again.  i actually ended up purchasing a Inspiron 15 2in1 from best-buy 
(yikes double sketchy!).

the tl;dr version is i'm actually really happy with this laptop 
considering i got it for $1k.  i've been running the freebsd drm-next 
branch on it and pretty much everything just works:

- accelerated GPU using i915 from drm-next + latest xorg and GL packages
- wifi just works
- suspend/resume just works when closing lid
- good battery life
- audio works after doing some sysctl tweaking

display is also 1920x1080 which is better than my old macbook.

the downsides are pretty much down to it only having a single HDMI port 
for external display, and the touchpad isn't the greatest.

so...to summarize pretty happy with this Dell laptop and the soon to be 
incorporated updated DRM :^)

-pete

-- 
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
@nomadlogicLA



From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Sat Apr 29 10:30:17 2017
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:30:17 -0400
Subject: [talk] encrypted chat server?
Message-ID: <bfa01215-40f8-682d-10b2-8284e21ab600@blackskyresearch.net>

Hey All,

It's been a *long* time since I've run an IRC server, but I want to run
a chat server again.

I'm looking to do it with some form of end to end crypto, (I don't care
if the server itself does tls etc...), so I know client end tools are
probably the more important thing I should dig into looking at. 
(Including iOS/Android apps.)

- What's the state of the art for simple encrypted chat?
- Any OTR users in the house who can point me at an overview of the
state of that tooling?
- Is there any way to use good old IRC for transport, or is XMPP really
the thing?

This is obviously not good for iOS/Android use, but PGP integration is
cool, but I'd REALLY like to know if there is any chat tooling which
could leverage SSH public keys?  (Already a culture my peeps understand
how to manage ver well...)

On the server end, I'm obviously looking for a clean/reliable solution...

Best,
.ike





From ike at blackskyresearch.net  Sun Apr 30 13:53:17 2017
From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 13:53:17 -0400
Subject: [talk] Biannual BSD on Laptops Thread
In-Reply-To: <86b8ed57-4f75-e381-7e19-2cb7ce56643c@nomadlogic.org>
References: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <86b8ed57-4f75-e381-7e19-2cb7ce56643c@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <0d21faa8-66f8-eb33-f13a-0845e1e0372c@blackskyresearch.net>

On 04/24/17 13:59, Pete Wright wrote:
> i've been running the freebsd drm-next branch on it and pretty much
> everything just works:
...
> this Dell laptop and the soon to be
> incorporated updated DRM :^)

Thanks for all that Pete!

One question here, I'm not in the know on this drm-next branch, been
searching around to grok what it's for, but that made me a bit more
confused :)  (I found too much info, all of it assuming I know what the
heck it is.)

Can you perhaps point me at some doc which explains what the drm-next
branch is for, and how to get using it effectively?

Best,
.ike



From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Sun Apr 30 14:14:26 2017
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 14:14:26 -0400
Subject: [talk] Biannual BSD on Laptops Thread
In-Reply-To: <0d21faa8-66f8-eb33-f13a-0845e1e0372c@blackskyresearch.net>
References: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <86b8ed57-4f75-e381-7e19-2cb7ce56643c@nomadlogic.org>
 <0d21faa8-66f8-eb33-f13a-0845e1e0372c@blackskyresearch.net>
Message-ID: <20170430181426.GA820@scott1.scottro.net>

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 01:53:17PM -0400, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> On 04/24/17 13:59, Pete Wright wrote:
> > i've been running the freebsd drm-next branch on it and pretty much
> > everything just works:
> ...
> > this Dell laptop and the soon to be
> > incorporated updated DRM :^)
> 
> Thanks for all that Pete!
> 
> One question here, I'm not in the know on this drm-next branch, been
> searching around to grok what it's for, but that made me a bit more
> confused :)  (I found too much info, all of it assuming I know what the
> heck it is.)
> 
> Can you perhaps point me at some doc which explains what the drm-next
> branch is for, and how to get using it effectively?
> 

The documentation on it, like too much FreeBSD documentation these days,
seems to be all over the place and out of date.

As I might have mentioned in another email on this, I have only gotten it
working with CURRENT.  The steps that work for me are

git clone -b drm-next-4.7
https://github.com/FreeBSDDesktop/freebsd-base-graphics
cd freebsd-base-graphics
sudo make kernel KERNCONF=GENERIC-NODEBUG

Modified from out of date instructiosn here.

https://wiki.freebsd.org/Use%20linuxkpi%20in%20DRM#Testing_Instructions_.2F_How_To

written for the older drm-next-3.9

In addition, I found that adding anything for i915 to /boot/loader.conf
made using the console excruciatingly slow.

I also found, in my case, (with a Yoga2 and Haswell 4000) that once I'd
gone into X, the only way out was to reboot.  That is, I can't close X
(regardless of desktop--alternating between openbox and dwm), nor go to a
console with ctl+alt+fX. 



-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



From shawn.webb at hardenedbsd.org  Sun Apr 30 14:24:36 2017
From: shawn.webb at hardenedbsd.org (Shawn Webb)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 14:24:36 -0400
Subject: [talk] Biannual BSD on Laptops Thread
In-Reply-To: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1493053289.1247658.954548792.59D2AA05@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20170430182436.cnnhn2frhzgogwb7@mutt-hbsd>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 01:01:29PM -0400, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Now that I finally have both FreeBSD and OpenBSD happily
> sleeping/resuming on my lenovo X230, I'm using it pretty heavily and
> HATE the display.  Terrible for graphics work and frustrating for me to
> use in dim light.  Really great display in a lit room, if you wish
> others not to shoulder surf...   Anyhow, I can't take it any more.
> 
> Next thing, it's 2017, and USBC.  Holy cow, evil all around.
> I'm *sortof* barely learning to live with the lack of Ethernet on
> laptops, but they mostly all seem to be USBC for POWER.
> Whomever thought a DMA wire protocol would be acceptable for POWERING
> your rig, should be taken out and beaten in the public square.  (Can't
> wait until we see USBC/Thunderbolt data-blocking cables hit the street.)
> 
> So, on to the laptops, I've narrowed it down to two (three really),
> choices, and wanted to see if anyone here had words on them:
> 
> - Dell XPS 13, and XPS 15
> I can't believe I'm considering a Dell laptop, but wow these look nice. 
> Breaking with the entire industry, they appear to have deep
> repair/service documentation, with full tear-down instructions for every
> component.
> RAM is soldered on board, (as with most things now), but the HDD is M.2
> standard- which I can totally live with.
> Big negative: USBC is the power port, just like new toy Mac hardware.
> At least it *has* regular USB ports. :)
> 
> - Lenovo X1 Carbon (5th generation?)
> These seem similar to the Dell models, thin and light.
> Big negative: HDD is proprietary variation of M.2 mini-sata thingamabop.
>  This is nearly a deal breaker for me.
> Also negative, the bios/hardware-lock-in for things like wireless cards
> etc... is a PITA.
> Big positive: Power does not appear to be USBC, (I think?)
> Also positive, these appear better supported by at least OpenBSD folks-
> anyone confirming this here?
> 
> - Another Lenovo, X270
> These are still a bit oldschool, ("the pointer nub"), with a newschool
> keyboard (I like).
> Positive: Still onboard ETHERNET!  WHEE!!!!  Also, has both MSATA and
> SATA HDD bays, so like my good old x230, I can have SSD boot media, and
> a cheap/big/slow HDD for a ton of storage without carrying external
> drives.  Been living like this for 2 years and love the combo.
> Also positive, I'm pretty sure more regular *BSD folks will keep using
> this line of machine, so I expect it to be supported quite well
> eventually, (if it's not already).
> Negative: it's still kindof big, and the display isn't as excellent as
> the other two options.  I'm looking for parity/similarity to the Apple
> rigs with retina displays, so, meh...
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts here?  Andy experiences good or bad?

I run HardenedBSD on my Dell Precision 7510, a laptop I absolutely love.
No need for drm-next with the nvidia quadro card in it. I don't really
trust suspend/resume on any OS other than Windows or OSX, so I can't
speak for that. Wireless is working as good as wireless does in FreeBSD
(which isn't well, but getting better).

My configuration:

Dell Precision 7510
64GB ECC RAM
1TB NVMe
1TB SSD
HardenedBSD 12-CURRENT

Thanks,

-- 
Shawn Webb
Cofounder and Security Engineer
HardenedBSD

GPG Key ID:          0x6A84658F52456EEE
GPG Key Fingerprint: 2ABA B6BD EF6A F486 BE89  3D9E 6A84 658F 5245 6EEE
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 833 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.nycbug.org:8443/pipermail/talk/attachments/20170430/0e123ff1/attachment.bin>