From matador-gtabug Thu Jul 1 00:49:59 2004 From: matador-gtabug (Matador) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:49:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] re : Linking BUG's chat list Message-ID: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> Hi, Just a late night thought, for what its worth. Should we in any way, link the gtabug mailing list to nycbug list and vice versa ? Just on my own, I can have posts from each, go to each. But I wouldn't want to do anything without approval. I think more eyes reading questions, news, etc.. may be beneficial for both parties. It seems both lists are semi-low volume, with NYCBUG slightly more volume *grin* perhaps due to *grin* double the population. Happy Canada Day to those north of the border ! Happy soon to be July 4th for those south ! Cheers, --Matador From george Thu Jul 1 00:56:47 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:56:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> Message-ID: <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 1, 2004, at 12:49 AM, Matador wrote: > Hi, > > Just a late night thought, for what its worth. > > Should we in any way, link the gtabug mailing list to nycbug list and > vice versa ? > > Just on my own, I can have posts from each, go to each. But I > wouldn't want to do anything without approval. > > I think more eyes reading questions, news, etc.. may be beneficial for > both parties. Sure, there would be benefits, and some of us met a number of Toronto BSDer's at BSDCan. But I don't think it would be useful in the current format. . .NYCBUG talk is a local mailing list with some remote members. A forum would be more appropriate. . .maybe one just focused on newbie questions. The BUG lists aren't just about technical issues, but also deal with local issues. I'd be curious to see what others think. . .but it seems to me quite clear that a NYCBUG and a GTABUG list have diffferent audiences due to geography. Nevertheless, we should look to coordinate other appropriate activities, such as the documentation project, book reviews, etc. g From ike Thu Jul 1 01:41:55 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:41:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting In-Reply-To: References: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <5C998D46-CB21-11D8-A2C0-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On Jun 30, 2004, at 11:50 PM, Paul Dlug wrote: [...rendezvous...] > I'm not aware of any major applications or OS distributions including > this functionality yet. Nope- been looking here too.... > It's not really interesting until someone does the work to integrate > it so you can connect FreeBSD box and a Mac and just have them start > talking. This is TOTALLY what I've been dying for too... (the point of zeroconf/rendezvous is to make life easier, right?) Rocket- .ike From ike Thu Jul 1 01:45:32 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:45:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: Hi Matador, On Jul 1, 2004, at 12:56 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > I'd be curious to see what others think. . .but it seems to me quite > clear that a NYCBUG and a GTABUG list have diffferent audiences due to > geography. Nevertheless, we should look to coordinate other > appropriate activities, such as the documentation project, book > reviews, etc. Not a bad idea, but I must say, as a nycbug member who's got WAY too many messages coming in for nycbug alone!!! With that, I'd say that I'd rather not join lists, but subscription is open for both! Rocket- .ike From ike Thu Jul 1 02:38:17 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:38:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac In-Reply-To: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk> References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk> Message-ID: <3C2CB80C-CB29-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Kurt, Darn, I have no idea how I let this thread on VirtualPC slip, On Jun 18, 2004, at 2:03 PM, Kurt Miller wrote: > I'm looking to replace my aging Vaio and am seriously considering > a Mac. The one thing I will miss the most is VMWare. I use it on > my laptop to work on OpenBSD ports while traveling. I think it > would be fantastic if I could use Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac to > run OpenBSD/i386. Anyone here tried it yet? > > http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virtualpc/virtualpc.aspx? > pid=virtualpc In a nutshell, it totally rocks for some things IMO. I happily can hardly function without my powerbook, and have installed all of OpenBSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD using VirtualPC- and even last month was screwing around with CARP/pfsync (hysterically unsucessfully for my first shots with it)... Great for dev work and trying things out. If you want to run x11 stuff, Apple's x11 is really nice to work with- I'd not muck about with VirtualPC to run that stuff. Anyhow, so far, I have only found one fairly esoteric drawback for it: The networking is wonkie for mobile use. The 'NAT' networking provides an interface which doesn't let multiple VirtualPC instances see each other on the network. The 'VirtualRouter' alternative setting, means you need a router external to the box your on, in order to give the VirtualPC instances a route to each other... Also, a drawback, it only functions on a primary ethernet nic- not over a wifi interface for some reason... This was only a problem when I was trying to test some setups for some nfs mounting and carp/pfsync stuff- but that stuff I got worked out from home where my router is my own... :) Other than that, it's totally a sweet app IMO- and works amazingly well- (even tested a make world upgrade on a FreeBSD install). A colleauge of mine even directly replicated a running server, in order to test a bunch of massive changes which could destroy the box... If you want to see it in action, email me before the next meeting so I bring my rig... Rocket- .ike From ike Thu Jul 1 03:01:26 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:01:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cool script In-Reply-To: <20040609110824.G543@dru.domain.org> References: <20040609110824.G543@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <785C2CF7-CB2C-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Dru, On Jun 9, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Dru wrote: > Here's a link to a writeup regarding a cool script a user sent me: > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5025 > > Testers and comments most welcome. He's looking into seeing it > committed to base. I think a lot of users would benefit from not > having to install the full ports collection on their systems. > > Dru Just tried this out (finally)- REALLY cool. First shell interface I've seen outside of sysinstall that really feels like it does... I'm a real fan of consistency for UI, and this script is a really cool base for making stuff which is aimed at folks familiar with the FreeBSD install screens... (seems good for important tasks which people don't do very often, and don't care to learn a complex app to do...) Thanks for posting it!!! Rocket- .ike From bob Thu Jul 1 03:03:15 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:03:15 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting In-Reply-To: References: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Jun 30, 2004, at 8:50 PM, Paul Dlug wrote: > On Jun 30, 2004, at 5:26 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Sorry this is apple related, but very interesting non-the-less: >> >> http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous/ >> >> A quote: >> "Rendezvous technology is also available on various POSIX platforms, >> including Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD." > > It's not from Apple but rendezvous has been available for a while: > > http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl/ > > It's in the FreeBSD ports collection: net/howl > > I've used it successfully for a while, there's also a perl module: > net/p5-Net-Rendezvous > > I'm not aware of any major applications or OS distributions including > this functionality yet. It's not really interesting until someone does > the work to integrate it so you can connect FreeBSD box and a Mac and > just have them start talking. Doesn't Apple's open source mDNSResponder work on other platforms? -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040701/283bc788/attachment.bin From ike Thu Jul 1 03:11:00 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:11:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting In-Reply-To: References: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2004, at 3:03 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> I'm not aware of any major applications or OS distributions including >> this functionality yet. It's not really interesting until someone >> does the work to integrate it so you can connect FreeBSD box and a >> Mac and just have them start talking. > > Doesn't Apple's open source mDNSResponder work on other platforms? It does, yes- I installed up both the apple package, and howl months back- but it wasn't pretty IMO, and I haven't done it since. With that, I also had trouble figuring out how to do stuff like getting ssh to function using rendevousz naming, (i.e. ssh hostname.local), and was confounded by the whole setup procedure- all for something which I wanted to simplify my life- so I gave up. If you have any ideas on how to make some of the things which are common/sane builtins easy to work with rendevousz, I'm all ears- but this is what I was speaking of before, where Apple, in their own interest (in getting their boxen into mixed unix enviornments), reaches out and helps push this kind of thing along to make it work in a more out-of-the-box style for some other unixes... or am I missing something? Rocket- .ike From sunny-ml Thu Jul 1 07:01:55 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:01:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting In-Reply-To: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org> References: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200407010701.55190.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 30 June 2004 05:26 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > Sorry this is apple related, but very interesting non-the-less: > > http://developer.apple.com/macosx/rendezvous/ > > A quote: > "Rendezvous technology is also available on various POSIX platforms, > including Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD." > > ...to bad they didn't list them alphabetically :( > > -p I'm surprised no one has mentioned this link: http://zeroconf.sourceforge.net/ Its been around for a while and various linux distros have it installed by default. Sunny Dubey From trish Thu Jul 1 08:27:31 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] brief USENIX report In-Reply-To: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040701082411.O27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > Well, Jesse and I have been in Boston at USENIX since early Monday > afternoon. > > Jesse is heading back to NYC tonight, and I'll be here until Friday. > > We have only some a little time in the meetings. Last nights meeting > by Kirk McKusick and Pete Salus about the history of UNIX was the only > full meeting I have personally attended so far. . .and it was > brilliant. Lots of stuff on the earlier notions of 'open source' > development with programs such as vi, the legal BSD battles, etc. > Kirk's history meetings are always great, see my USENIX report in Daemon News like years ago (1999 I think, in Monterey) > We have gotten to know so so many people. Great conversations with > Michael Lucas, Eric Allman, Scott Long of FBSD, Bosco of FBSD, Andrew > who lives in Queens and is a NetBSD developer. . .so many very cool > people. > USENIX is great for that :) I miss everyone actually. > Since we were in the publisher's area with BSDMall/DN, we were with > Addison Wesley, ORA and No Starch. We had many extended discussions > with all of the publishers. > Bill Pollack from No Starce is a trip, eh? > We hopefully can have Kirk McKusick do a special meeting in October, > when he's in the city. . .it will coincide with the updating of The > Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System. . .being > released by Addison Wesley in the next couple of months. > That would be great, it would be nice seeing Kirk again... its been since 2k1. > Everyone who has an iBook or a PowerBook now has a Daemon sticker. . > .of course. > > Jesse spent some quality time with Daryl, a NetBSD developer, trying to > dual boot his OSX PowerBook with NetBSD, and is just caught up with > keyboard issues. > I wonder if they can help me boot NetBSD on my air purifier... > Anyway, sorry that more of you couldn't make it, but we'll be sure to > fill you in. . .We have a box of the USENIX magazines for distribution > at the next meeting. . . > > g You mean ;login? Yay! - -Trish - -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA5AM2JrIdYm/B/xYRAnyqAJ92DZB/qwVfDsQ7ME0nw+MYRgMe0gCfeJWh 2HOY7mRTqFAKeHccYNbtY7c= =z3ld -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dan Thu Jul 1 08:56:05 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [chat] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> Message-ID: <20040701085529.N88379@xeon.unixathome.org> On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Matador wrote: > Hi, > > Just a late night thought, for what its worth. > > Should we in any way, link the gtabug mailing list to nycbug list and > vice versa ? No, we should not. Two groups, two lists. Please, let's keep it that way. From pete Thu Jul 1 09:19:55 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:19:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Interesting In-Reply-To: References: <40E3300B.9070602@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40E40F7B.3050106@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > On Jul 1, 2004, at 3:03 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >>> I'm not aware of any major applications or OS distributions >>> including this functionality yet. It's not really interesting until >>> someone does the work to integrate it so you can connect FreeBSD box >>> and a Mac and just have them start talking. >> >> >> Doesn't Apple's open source mDNSResponder work on other platforms? > > > It does, yes- I installed up both the apple package, and howl months > back- but it wasn't pretty IMO, and I haven't done it since. With > that, I also had trouble figuring out how to do stuff like getting ssh > to function using rendevousz naming, (i.e. ssh hostname.local), and > was confounded by the whole setup procedure- all for something which I > wanted to simplify my life- so I gave up. > > If you have any ideas on how to make some of the things which are > common/sane builtins easy to work with rendevousz, I'm all ears- but > this is what I was speaking of before, where Apple, in their own > interest (in getting their boxen into mixed unix enviornments), > reaches out and helps push this kind of thing along to make it work in > a more out-of-the-box style for some other unixes... > what sounded interesting to me was this bit: " Check out the mDNSResponder project from Darwin CVS to get the new POSIX compatible mDNS Responder daemon (mdnsd) which provides the same DNSServiceDiscovery API available on Mac OS X and Windows." would this be enough to get more apps to work seamlessly with darwin, or has this pretty much always been the case via zeroconf? -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From louis Thu Jul 1 09:21:44 2004 From: louis (Louis Bertrand) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [chat] Re: [nycbug-talk] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 1, 2004, at 12:49 AM, Matador wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Just a late night thought, for what its worth. > > > > Should we in any way, link the gtabug mailing list to nycbug list and > > vice versa ? > > > > Just on my own, I can have posts from each, go to each. But I > > wouldn't want to do anything without approval. > > > > I think more eyes reading questions, news, etc.. may be beneficial for > > both parties. > > Sure, there would be benefits, and some of us met a number of Toronto > BSDer's at BSDCan. But I don't think it would be useful in the current > format. . .NYCBUG talk is a local mailing list with some remote > members. A forum would be more appropriate. . .maybe one just focused > on newbie questions. The BUG lists aren't just about technical issues, > but also deal with local issues. > GTABUG is pretty much the same: local content with some remote subscribers. Plus, now I'm getting double posts because I subscribe to both. Ciao --Louis From pete Thu Jul 1 09:25:05 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:25:05 -0400 Subject: [chat] Re: [nycbug-talk] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40E410B1.3080202@nomadlogic.org> Louis Bertrand wrote: >On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > >>On Jul 1, 2004, at 12:49 AM, Matador wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>Just a late night thought, for what its worth. >>> >>>Should we in any way, link the gtabug mailing list to nycbug list and >>>vice versa ? >>> >>>Just on my own, I can have posts from each, go to each. But I >>>wouldn't want to do anything without approval. >>> >>>I think more eyes reading questions, news, etc.. may be beneficial for >>>both parties. >>> >>> >>Sure, there would be benefits, and some of us met a number of Toronto >>BSDer's at BSDCan. But I don't think it would be useful in the current >>format. . .NYCBUG talk is a local mailing list with some remote >>members. A forum would be more appropriate. . .maybe one just focused >>on newbie questions. The BUG lists aren't just about technical issues, >>but also deal with local issues. >> >> >> >GTABUG is pretty much the same: local content with some remote subscribers. >Plus, now I'm getting double posts because I subscribe to both. > >Ciao > --Louis > > > would it make sense to setup a low volume cross-bug list (aside from the fact that we would all have to join yet another mailing list)? -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Thu Jul 1 09:42:07 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:42:07 -0400 Subject: [chat] Re: [nycbug-talk] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: <40E410B1.3080202@nomadlogic.org> References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> <0E54F78D-CB1B-11D8-9F4D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40E410B1.3080202@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <71F7A12E-CB64-11D8-BEEC-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > > would it make sense to setup a low volume cross-bug list (aside from > the fact that we would all have to join yet another mailing list)? > > -p > no. . .there's nothing wrong with the idea, but there are already other appropriate avenues for the crosspollination to happen. . DN forums, documentation project, the project mailing lists, etc. The volume of our talk isn't constant, but it's certainly enough for me. . . BTW, any of you GTABUG'ers coming to HOPE July 9-11? g From george Thu Jul 1 11:07:30 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:07:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] brief USENIX report In-Reply-To: <20040701082411.O27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> References: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040701082411.O27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: <5F998176-CB70-11D8-B2A3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:27 AM, Trish Lynch wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> Well, Jesse and I have been in Boston at USENIX since early Monday >> afternoon. >> >> Jesse is heading back to NYC tonight, and I'll be here until Friday. >> >> We have only some a little time in the meetings. Last nights meeting >> by Kirk McKusick and Pete Salus about the history of UNIX was the only >> full meeting I have personally attended so far. . .and it was >> brilliant. Lots of stuff on the earlier notions of 'open source' >> development with programs such as vi, the legal BSD battles, etc. >> > > Kirk's history meetings are always great, see my USENIX report in > Daemon > News like years ago (1999 I think, in Monterey) > complete fabrication Trish. . .oh, you mean http://ezine.daemonnews.org/199909/usenix-kirk.html? >> We have gotten to know so so many people. Great conversations with >> Michael Lucas, Eric Allman, Scott Long of FBSD, Bosco of FBSD, Andrew >> who lives in Queens and is a NetBSD developer. . .so many very cool >> people. >> > > USENIX is great for that :) I miss everyone actually. > >> Since we were in the publisher's area with BSDMall/DN, we were with >> Addison Wesley, ORA and No Starch. We had many extended discussions >> with all of the publishers. >> > > Bill Pollack from No Starce is a trip, eh? He was supposed to be at our Apple meeting with Grant from ORA. . . We spent lots of time talking to him. . .he's from Queens originally. . . He's remarkably democratic for a book publisher. . . > > >> We hopefully can have Kirk McKusick do a special meeting in October, >> when he's in the city. . .it will coincide with the updating of The >> Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System. . .being >> released by Addison Wesley in the next couple of months. >> > > That would be great, it would be nice seeing Kirk again... its been > since > 2k1. > >> Everyone who has an iBook or a PowerBook now has a Daemon sticker. . >> .of course. >> >> Jesse spent some quality time with Daryl, a NetBSD developer, trying >> to >> dual boot his OSX PowerBook with NetBSD, and is just caught up with >> keyboard issues. >> > > I wonder if they can help me boot NetBSD on my air purifier... > Jesse should be putting together some documentation on the NetBSD dual boot on his PowerBook. Right Jesse? > >> Anyway, sorry that more of you couldn't make it, but we'll be sure to >> fill you in. . .We have a box of the USENIX magazines for distribution >> at the next meeting. . . >> >> g > > You mean ;login? > > Yay! Big fat box. . .I'm seeing what I can snag of the conference documentation. g From dlavigne6 Thu Jul 1 11:17:19 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] cool script In-Reply-To: <785C2CF7-CB2C-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <20040609110824.G543@dru.domain.org> <785C2CF7-CB2C-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20040701111308.S577@dru.domain.org> On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Dru, > > On Jun 9, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Dru wrote: > >> Here's a link to a writeup regarding a cool script a user sent me: >> >> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5025 >> >> Testers and comments most welcome. He's looking into seeing it committed >> to base. I think a lot of users would benefit from not having to install >> the full ports collection on their systems. >> >> Dru > > Just tried this out (finally)- REALLY cool. First shell interface I've seen > outside of sysinstall that really feels like it does... > > I'm a real fan of consistency for UI, and this script is a really cool base > for making stuff which is aimed at folks familiar with the FreeBSD install > screens... (seems good for important tasks which people don't do very often, > and don't care to learn a complex app to do...) > > Thanks for posting it!!! I'm thankful the script writer took a moment to email me and let me know about it. I can't stress enough: if you add a feature to an existing wheel, put it out there so other users can benefit from it! If it's useful for you, at least one other person in the world (and more realistically, a lot of other persons in the world) will find it useful. Dru From dlavigne6 Thu Jul 1 11:23:06 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] last call! In-Reply-To: <785C2CF7-CB2C-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <20040609110824.G543@dru.domain.org> <785C2CF7-CB2C-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20040701111814.K577@dru.domain.org> It's taken a while, but the BSD Success Stories pamphlet is just about ready to go to the printers. However, as it stands now it's gonna be a mighty slim pamphlet with only 6 stories in there. Can any of you guys spare an hour to write up a rough draft of a success story you've experienced? I know you guys have lots of stories, and if I was closer I'd ply you with beer... Rough draft is fine, I can tidy it up. Dru From george Thu Jul 1 11:59:45 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:59:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Message-ID: This OnLamp article probably gives the best overview of the CA Cert yet. . . It's highly encouraged that people read this in preparation for the Monday night meeting. . . http://www.onlamp.com/pub/wlg/5142 g From matador-gtabug Thu Jul 1 12:48:05 2004 From: matador-gtabug (Matador) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:48:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [chat] re : Linking BUG's chat list In-Reply-To: <20040701085529.N88379@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <40E397F7.7050608@matadorsplace.com> <20040701085529.N88379@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: <40E44045.3040307@matadorsplace.com> Yea. Discussion over. Carry on as normal :) Dan Langille wrote: > No, we should not. Two groups, two lists. Please, let's keep it that > way. From jesse Thu Jul 1 14:10:37 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:10:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] brief USENIX report In-Reply-To: <5F998176-CB70-11D8-B2A3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040701082411.O27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> <5F998176-CB70-11D8-B2A3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2004, at 11:07 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:27 AM, Trish Lynch wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: >> SNIP >>> Everyone who has an iBook or a PowerBook now has a Daemon sticker. . >>> .of course. >>> >>> Jesse spent some quality time with Daryl, a NetBSD developer, trying >>> to >>> dual boot his OSX PowerBook with NetBSD, and is just caught up with >>> keyboard issues. >>> >> >> I wonder if they can help me boot NetBSD on my air purifier... >> > > Jesse should be putting together some documentation on the NetBSD dual > boot on his PowerBook. > > Right Jesse? Darren was the NetBSD guy who was helping me out. Darryl gave me the ride. On MY powerbook, sure. I'm going to give hacking the apple keyboard code a try.... and hopefully I'll learn something. If a miracle happens I'll have the first PBG4 running NetBSD as thread #1. I'm kinda comfortable with OpenFirmware 3, but would like to confab with Ike and Bob to get the meat and potatoEs. > >> >>> Anyway, sorry that more of you couldn't make it, but we'll be sure to >>> fill you in. . .We have a box of the USENIX magazines for >>> distribution >>> at the next meeting. . . >>> >>> g >> >> You mean ;login? >> >> Yay! > > Big fat box. . .I'm seeing what I can snag of the conference > documentation. > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From george Thu Jul 1 17:04:27 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:04:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration Message-ID: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Some brief notes. . .if anyone wants to discuss further, I can provide some details. . . sudo and rights of admins use of CVS for server management project management documentation communication issues in general and within projects Wiki versus other pkgs for project management online cf engine ms share project (?) help desk issues with tickets, relations with users, user service first and technology second user surveys: only getting answers to questions you ask. . . dealing with personalities, politics, etc. socializing scenarios inter-departmental meetings of techs From pete Thu Jul 1 17:59:53 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:59:53 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration In-Reply-To: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > Some brief notes. . .if anyone wants to discuss further, I can provide > some details. . . > > sudo and rights of admins > > use of CVS for server management > > project management > > documentation > > communication issues in general and within projects > > Wiki versus other pkgs for project management online > > cf engine > > ms share project (?) > > help desk issues with tickets, relations with users, user service > first and technology second > user surveys: only getting answers to questions you ask. . . > > dealing with personalities, politics, etc. > > socializing scenarios > > inter-departmental meetings of techs > > _______________________________________________ i'm pretty interested in all topics altho i'd love to hear more on cf engine and using cvs for server management. i've actually got a good book on both topics (can't remember the title now), but would love to hear how others are using this stuff. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Thu Jul 1 18:05:20 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:05:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] brief USENIX report In-Reply-To: References: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040701082411.O27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> <5F998176-CB70-11D8-B2A3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2004, at 2:10 PM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > >> Jesse should be putting together some documentation on the NetBSD >> dual boot on his PowerBook. >> >> Right Jesse? > > Darren was the NetBSD guy who was helping me out. Darryl gave me the > ride. On MY powerbook, sure. I'm going to give hacking the apple > keyboard code a try.... and hopefully I'll learn something. If a > miracle happens I'll have the first PBG4 running NetBSD as thread #1. > I'm kinda comfortable with OpenFirmware 3, but would like to confab > with Ike and Bob to get the meat and potatoEs. > This is the kind of thing that needs to be in the documentation project. Instead of people keeping it on their own personal servers or worse, in their brains very likely to be flushed out at some point, let's keep it centrally on the nycbug server. .. the new site. . . g From ike Thu Jul 1 18:11:08 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:11:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] brief USENIX report In-Reply-To: References: <047E671E-CAE8-11D8-8FAA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040701082411.O27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> <5F998176-CB70-11D8-B2A3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <8D7541CF-CBAB-11D8-A4C9-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup Jesse, On Jul 1, 2004, at 2:10 PM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > I'm kinda comfortable with OpenFirmware 3, but would like to confab > with Ike and Bob to get the meat and potatoEs. I've not done dual-boot since the old 68k and pre open-firmware days, (Classic Mac), where one had to trick the bootloader by bootstrapping OS9 and loading an extension which would flip the boot... (MkLinux and NetBSD mania) With that, I'd love to see what you've got going at this point... :) But the key IMO, from the Darwin/OSX side of the fence, nvram is your friend... Rocket- .ike From jesse Thu Jul 1 21:59:56 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:59:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration In-Reply-To: <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> References: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <840BA616-CBCB-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> > > > i'm pretty interested in all topics altho i'd love to hear more on cf > engine and using cvs for server management. i've actually got a good > book on both topics (can't remember the title now), but would love to > hear how others are using this stuff. > > -pete > > for REAL, I'm all over CVS for server management. Sounds like CVS could be used for a lot of cloney stuff. From jesse Thu Jul 1 22:20:10 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:20:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] maybe a little off topic Message-ID: <57FF60A8-CBCE-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> i'm going to be having a killer birthday party tomorrow if anyone's interested. I live in LIC There might even be a theme song written and performed just for the occasion.... From rick Thu Jul 1 22:36:12 2004 From: rick (Rick Aliwalas) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration In-Reply-To: <840BA616-CBCB-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> References: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> <840BA616-CBCB-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Jesse Callaway wrote: > for REAL, I'm all over CVS for server management. Sounds like CVS could > be used for a lot of cloney stuff. CVS is used for version control for larger projects. For sysadmins, RCS works fine for keeping track of changes to config files. It's extremely simple to use and makes reverting back to non-hosed versions of a config file a breeze. It allows you to go back to any previous version of a file or just look at what changes have been made and by whom. By "cloney" do you mean keeping config files between multiple machines in sync? rsync is great for that. -rick From okan Thu Jul 1 23:22:58 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:22:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration In-Reply-To: References: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> <840BA616-CBCB-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: <20040702032258.GB60327@yinaska.pair.com> On Thu 2004.07.01 at 22:36 -0400, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > > for REAL, I'm all over CVS for server management. Sounds like CVS could > > be used for a lot of cloney stuff. > > CVS is used for version control for larger projects. For sysadmins, RCS > works fine for keeping track of changes to config files. It's extremely > simple to use and makes reverting back to non-hosed versions of a > config file a breeze. It allows you to go back to any previous > version of a file or just look at what changes have been made and > by whom. yea, CVS is great for this type of stuff. but remember that CVS has a few cluges, such as try bring in an existing /etc directory under CVS control on a running box. if you control the build process, then yes, populating those CVS control files by default works in, say, jumpstart/jass or any of the other build environment. otherwise, it can be a pain. i've implemented solutions around CVS, such as using CVS on a central server then rdist(8)/rsync the config files (push vs pull) - this method seems to be how cfengine started out. if one manages a significant number of machines, one expects automate from somewhere else - and a controlled environment is assumed ;) it's funny how things come full circle. "back in the day" we used to have full systems that did all this, from automated builds, monitoring, change control, blah blah blah, but somehow the "desktop way" became prevelant and the de-centralization began...and now we want it back - and other things come full circle in this industry - just watch data center hardware... i most certainly can not say i have the authority to say this, but i believe the cheapo x86 hardware is partly to blame. at one point, i took OpenBSD's daily/weekly/monthly/security scripts and made them work on all our sunos/solaris/linux/*BSD/(and yes, windows to a small extent) environments and that helped....more work was required to make it great, but i've since moved out of the isp business. okan > By "cloney" do you mean keeping config files between multiple machines in > sync? rsync is great for that. > > -rick > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From rick Thu Jul 1 23:48:22 2004 From: rick (Rick Aliwalas) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration In-Reply-To: <20040702032258.GB60327@yinaska.pair.com> References: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> <840BA616-CBCB-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040702032258.GB60327@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Thu 2004.07.01 at 22:36 -0400, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > > yea, CVS is great for this type of stuff. but remember that CVS has > a few cluges, such as try bring in an existing /etc directory under > CVS control on a running box. if you control the build process, > then yes, populating those CVS control files by default works in, > say, jumpstart/jass or any of the other build environment. otherwise, > it can be a pain. > > i've implemented solutions around CVS, such as using CVS on a central > server then rdist(8)/rsync the config files (push vs pull) - this > method seems to be how cfengine started out. if one manages a > significant number of machines, one expects automate from somewhere > else - and a controlled environment is assumed ;) > > it's funny how things come full circle. "back in the day" we used > to have full systems that did all this, from automated builds, > monitoring, change control, blah blah blah, but somehow the "desktop > way" became prevelant and the de-centralization began...and now we > want it back - and other things come full circle in this industry > - just watch data center hardware... i most certainly can not say > i have the authority to say this, but i believe the cheapo x86 > hardware is partly to blame. I agree. It's also a different game now. No one has a flat network anymore. Most places have numerous network segments with many devices in between. Getting updates to machines behind multiple firewalls in different geographic regions with zero downtime windows. The infrastructure is just more complicated now... > at one point, i took OpenBSD's daily/weekly/monthly/security scripts > and made them work on all our sunos/solaris/linux/*BSD/(and yes, > windows to a small extent) environments and that helped....more > work was required to make it great, but i've since moved out of the > isp business. Funny - we did something similar. We took the FreeBSD daily script and modified them for Solaris. -rick From rick Fri Jul 2 00:03:48 2004 From: rick (Rick Aliwalas) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime Message-ID: I thought I'd share this with the group. Sure it means we're probably exploitable since the kernel is real old but its still cool: % uptime 11:47PM up 1012 days, 16:23, 14 users, load averages: 0.43, 0.36, 0.32 The box is running FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE. Runs BIND, majordomo, Apache and some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! -rick From george Fri Jul 2 00:45:57 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:45:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > I thought I'd share this with the group. Sure it means we're probably > exploitable since the kernel is real old but its still cool: > > % uptime > 11:47PM up 1012 days, 16:23, 14 users, load averages: 0.43, 0.36, 0.32 > > The box is running FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE. Runs BIND, majordomo, Apache > and > some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the > years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! > or on a 'unix-like' system. . . sorry, tonight's been a f'g trip. g From jesse Fri Jul 2 00:51:40 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:51:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Guru Session on SysAdministration In-Reply-To: References: <3CC58E14-CBA2-11D8-BBD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40E48959.3030708@nomadlogic.org> <840BA616-CBCB-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: <81F31D77-CBE3-11D8-B992-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On Jul 1, 2004, at 10:36 PM, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Jesse Callaway wrote: > >> for REAL, I'm all over CVS for server management. Sounds like CVS >> could >> be used for a lot of cloney stuff. > > CVS is used for version control for larger projects. For sysadmins, > RCS > works fine for keeping track of changes to config files. It's > extremely > simple to use and makes reverting back to non-hosed versions of a > config file a breeze. It allows you to go back to any previous > version of a file or just look at what changes have been made and > by whom. > > By "cloney" do you mean keeping config files between multiple machines > in > sync? rsync is great for that. > > -rick > yeah, I was thinking of how it would make sense myself when I first read it. I think it would be best where file storage limitations are a concern. maybe really large organizations.... as you say. From pete Fri Jul 2 09:22:42 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:22:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E561A2.5030704@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 2, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > >> I thought I'd share this with the group. Sure it means we're probably >> exploitable since the kernel is real old but its still cool: >> >> % uptime >> 11:47PM up 1012 days, 16:23, 14 users, load averages: 0.43, 0.36, 0.32 >> >> The box is running FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE. Runs BIND, majordomo, Apache >> and >> some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the >> years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! > that's awesome, guess you got some good harware too ;) have you been following the discussion about uptime on the FreeBSD-stable list lately regarding uptime? Pretty interesting stuff. heh, i also just noticed the load average! wicked! -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Fri Jul 2 09:55:08 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:55:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] spam & comcast Message-ID: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> mentioned by eric allman this am at usenix. . . http://news.com.com/Comcast+reports+35+percent+decline+in+spam/2100 -1038_3-5251909.html?tag=nefd.top From fifi Fri Jul 2 10:02:50 2004 From: fifi (Mike Sawicki) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:02:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] spam & comcast In-Reply-To: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040702140250.GO87092@HAX.ORG> On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 09:55:08AM -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: > mentioned by eric allman this am at usenix. . . > > http://news.com.com/Comcast+reports+35+percent+decline+in+spam/2100 > -1038_3-5251909.html?tag=nefd.top > hehe, "Called 'port 25'". What is this magic they speak of?! -m From george Fri Jul 2 10:49:19 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:49:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] spam & comcast In-Reply-To: <20040702140250.GO87092@HAX.ORG> References: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040702140250.GO87092@HAX.ORG> Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Mike Sawicki wrote: > On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 09:55:08AM -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: >> mentioned by eric allman this am at usenix. . . >> >> http://news.com.com/Comcast+reports+35+percent+decline+in+spam/2100 >> -1038_3-5251909.html?tag=nefd.top >> > > hehe, "Called 'port 25'". What is this magic they speak of?! Yeah, Ace. . .You were in the same meeting. . .only you got there ontime. g From rick Fri Jul 2 11:33:02 2004 From: rick (Rick Aliwalas) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > > some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the > > years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! > > or on a 'unix-like' system. . . osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an extreme headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to follow - for me at least. It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. Funny, I got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, trolled) what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server as opposed to a *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows argument that unix cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its easier to train admins to use a gui,... The highlight of the class was when the instructor ran the following cmd from a Terminal : % ls -l | say -rick > > sorry, tonight's been a f'g trip. > > g > > From trish Fri Jul 2 11:28:47 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] spam & comcast In-Reply-To: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040702112625.A27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > mentioned by eric allman this am at usenix. . . > > http://news.com.com/Comcast+reports+35+percent+decline+in+spam/2100 > -1038_3-5251909.html?tag=nefd.top > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > For a second, I was going to get upset, but then I realized what they're doing.... plus this excerpt from another article allayed my fears: "While many spammers use an open port 25 as a workaround, there are legitimate uses as well. More technically savvy subscribers and small businesses use the open port to connect to outside mail servers or to run their own SMTP servers. " "We have commercial customers that aren't spammers that we don't want to impact," Comcast's Bowling said. Check the headers from my mail if you don't know why I was panicing :) - -Trish - -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA5X8xJrIdYm/B/xYRAgGUAJ4uDZaUGkoC4sgg0kLEXfXSbWq8OwCgijB9 fcPj7SkiLUrhjxcH7AksR0A= =RFXD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ike Fri Jul 2 15:12:58 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:12:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rick, On Jul 2, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > >>> some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the >>> years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! >> >> or on a 'unix-like' system. . . > > osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an > extreme > headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to > administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the > instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to > follow - for me at least. Understandable- but to be straight, it's really all there, and nicely organized once you dive into it IMO. > > It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing > open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, > apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. As a serious apple fan, I'm tending to agree right now... > Funny, I > got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, > trolled) > what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server as opposed > to a > *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows argument that unix > cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its easier to > train admins to use a gui,... Right. *sigh* This is exactly what I've been trying to express (To Apple, in various ways) about their foray into the server world... They have a hard time separating the Windows/Novel IT world which they have competed in for years, from us UNIX folks- and loose business because of it. They have a cool agenda, and have a lot of cool GUI work that comes from years of competing with NT etc..., but their sales folks need to step back and LISTEN to what the *Open Source UNIX Sysadmins* REALLY want. I know you didn't ask for it, but my answer to that question is this: If you are involved with clustered supercomputing, G5 Servers are an inexpensive dream to work with. If you are working in an educational enviornment or small orginization who needs a basic org. server internally, and don't have massive resources to keep IT on staff to run it, an XServe is great. Also, if you are a sysadmin who comes from the NT/Novel/GUI world of things, (these folks getting fewer and fewer nowadays), it's dreamy too. If you are doing any server-side graphics processing and mass storage, on the public internet or internally, again, dreamy... But, to be really honest, those GUI tools don't make for a very controllable front-line webserver, period. I'll go out on a limb to say that those of us around the Open UNIX world usually have extreme expectations of the tools we use. With that stated, the Apple sales teams are not really in any position to support our needs, though the UNIX end of the OS itself is delightfully consistent and fantastic to work with. Basically, I'm saying, the IT culture they have been selling to for years doesn't quite understand us yet- and I feel your experience here was a good example of this. The Apple guy who lectured at nycbug months back, Patrick, was really good here- he clearly and eloquently communicated a lot about the UNIX core- and actually barely touched on the GUI tools at all- (though NYCBUG folks seemed to want to see more of them!) -- It's a tough battle here not just for Apple IMHO, but for any IT- as there are a lot of challenges as IT comes through some significant changes, and the 45+ year old technology of the Terminal again begins to take the lead as the de-facto environment for sysadmins everywhere. > > The highlight of the class was when the instructor ran the following > cmd > from a Terminal : > > % ls -l | say Oh- just now tried that, that's cute. :| I'm sad to hear that your apple time at Usenix was poorly spent. Best, Isaac From ike Fri Jul 2 15:19:11 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:19:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] apple threads move off nycbug list? Message-ID: Hi all, Well, there have been a great deal of posts regarding Apple and OSX and Darwin stuff on the list. With that, speaking as someone involved with many of these posts, this is not what the NYCBUG list is really about- and I've casually (and positively) been told there is a bit of an overage of Apple talk on this list. With that, as a member of LESMUUG, (Lower East Side Mac Unix Users Group), I'd like to make a motion that we move any apple-heavy threads over to that mailing list, stuff which does not pertain directly to general BSD questions. http://lesmuug.org/mailinglist.html This is, of course, unless everyone here is OK with the volume of apple threads passing through here? (i.e. am I being paranoid?) Rocket, .ike From pete Fri Jul 2 17:06:29 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:06:29 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] apple threads move off nycbug list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E5CE55.3000108@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi all, > > Well, there have been a great deal of posts regarding Apple and OSX > and Darwin stuff on the list. > > With that, speaking as someone involved with many of these posts, this > is not what the NYCBUG list is really about- and I've casually (and > positively) been told there is a bit of an overage of Apple talk on > this list. > > With that, as a member of LESMUUG, (Lower East Side Mac Unix Users > Group), I'd like to make a motion that we move any apple-heavy threads > over to that mailing list, stuff which does not pertain directly to > general BSD questions. > > http://lesmuug.org/mailinglist.html > > This is, of course, unless everyone here is OK with the volume of > apple threads passing through here? (i.e. am I being paranoid?) > Yea Ike I think that this is a good thing. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Fri Jul 2 13:20:34 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:20:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20CF8537-CC4C-11D8-BE90-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 2, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > >>> some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the >>> years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! >> >> or on a 'unix-like' system. . . > > osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an > extreme > headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to > administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the > instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to > follow - for me at least. I didn't attend tutorials at all. . .sounds like a strange way to run a USENIX tutorial though. Although I do know when I need to troubleshoot something I haven't experienced on OS X, i tend to do it the unix way, since i'm pretty lost with many gui functions. it would be nice to see them tied together. > > It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing > open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, > apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. Funny, I > got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, > trolled) > what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server as opposed > to a > *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows argument that unix > cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its easier to > train admins to use a gui,... > Excellent point. It's clear that anyone can quickly learn the gui operations. . .it's the cli that separates the technical world. > The highlight of the class was when the instructor ran the following > cmd > from a Terminal : > > % ls -l | say nice. . .i guess. . . From george Fri Jul 2 13:14:35 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:14:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] spam & comcast In-Reply-To: <20040702112625.A27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> References: <6DED9873-CC2F-11D8-AEE5-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040702112625.A27358@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: <4AAA7D1F-CC4B-11D8-BE90-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 2, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Trish Lynch wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> mentioned by eric allman this am at usenix. . . >> >> http://news.com.com/Comcast+reports+35+percent+decline+in+spam/2100 >> -1038_3-5251909.html?tag=nefd.top >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > > For a second, I was going to get upset, but then I realized what > they're > doing.... > > plus this excerpt from another article allayed my fears: > > "While many spammers use an open port 25 as a workaround, there are > legitimate uses as well. More technically savvy subscribers and small > businesses use the open port to connect to outside mail servers or to > run > their own SMTP servers. " > > "We have commercial customers that aren't spammers that we don't want > to > impact," Comcast's Bowling said. > > Check the headers from my mail if you don't know why I was panicing :) > > - -Trish Understood. . . Obviously a lot of port 25s are legitimately open, and a lot that are closed should be open. And it's a temporary fix. The real and large spammers are way too sophisticated to be stopped by something so basic. Eric Allman did raise the issue of legislation, which i think is a joke as an anti-uce tool. He said that legislation just scares and sometimes shuts down the mom-and-pop spamming shops (weird visuals i'm getting), but the larger operations go offshore. . .which is no different than child porn, gambling or whatever. It's not about laws, killer apps, or whatever. It's about RFCs, current and future ones, that address the issue, and then are implemented by the big ISPs. And I don't just mean blocking open relays. The fact that some polls show that 20% of people have responded to spam certainly doesn't strengthen the fight. g From rick Sat Jul 3 13:08:34 2004 From: rick (Rick Aliwalas) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Rick, > > > osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an > > extreme > > headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to > > administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the > > instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to > > follow - for me at least. > > Understandable- but to be straight, it's really all there, and nicely > organized once you dive into it IMO. > > > > > It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing > > open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, > > apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. > > As a serious apple fan, I'm tending to agree right now... > > > Funny, I > > got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, > > trolled) > > what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server as opposed > > to a > > *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows argument that unix > > cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its easier to > > train admins to use a gui,... > > Right. *sigh* This is exactly what I've been trying to express (To > Apple, in various ways) about their foray into the server world... > They have a hard time separating the Windows/Novel IT world which they > have competed in for years, from us UNIX folks- and loose business > because of it. > > They have a cool agenda, and have a lot of cool GUI work that comes > from years of competing with NT etc..., but their sales folks need to > step back and LISTEN to what the *Open Source UNIX Sysadmins* REALLY > want. For sure. Just from a practical standpoint. Suppose you have to administer several Mac servers in a remote location behind multiple firewalls. Having good cmd line equivalents to the admin tools will make life much easier. It's hard to script a gui... > I know you didn't ask for it, but my answer to that question is this: > If you are involved with clustered supercomputing, G5 Servers are an > inexpensive dream to work with. If you are working in an educational > enviornment or small orginization who needs a basic org. server > internally, and don't have massive resources to keep IT on staff to run > it, an XServe is great. Also, if you are a sysadmin who comes from the > NT/Novel/GUI world of things, (these folks getting fewer and fewer > nowadays), it's dreamy too. > If you are doing any server-side graphics processing and mass storage, > on the public internet or internally, again, dreamy... I definitely asked for it ;) That's good info as I was under the impression that the G5 servers were seriously expensive. > But, to be really honest, those GUI tools don't make for a very > controllable front-line webserver, period. I'll go out on a limb to > say that those of us around the Open UNIX world usually have extreme > expectations of the tools we use. With that stated, the Apple sales > teams are not really in any position to support our needs, though the > UNIX end of the OS itself is delightfully consistent and fantastic to > work with. > Basically, I'm saying, the IT culture they have been selling to for > years doesn't quite understand us yet- and I feel your experience here > was a good example of this. They are definitely doing something right based on the huge number of Apple laptops I saw at USENIX. > The Apple guy who lectured at nycbug months back, Patrick, was really > good here- he clearly and eloquently communicated a lot about the UNIX > core- and actually barely touched on the GUI tools at all- (though > NYCBUG folks seemed to want to see more of them!) > > -- > It's a tough battle here not just for Apple IMHO, but for any IT- as > there are a lot of challenges as IT comes through some significant > changes, and the 45+ year old technology of the Terminal again begins > to take the lead as the de-facto environment for sysadmins everywhere. > > > The highlight of the class was when the instructor ran the following > > cmd > > from a Terminal : > > > > % ls -l | say > Oh- just now tried that, that's cute. :| I'm sad to hear that your > apple time at Usenix was poorly spent. To clarify - I did learn a great deal about the heritage and architecture of osx. What I did expect more of however was the cmd line equivalents of the gui, NetInfo, etc. One thing that blew me away was the folder that contained gui frontends for nslookup, etc. I was stunned to see a gui nmap frontend - in both osx server and client! I can just picture a corporate Mac user setting off bells and whistles port scanning his network ;) Thanks for the feedback Isaac. -rick From bob Sat Jul 3 13:25:44 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:25:44 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03C1CCAE-CD16-11D8-9841-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 3, 2004, at 10:08 AM, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > >>> Funny, I >>> got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, >>> trolled) >>> what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server as >>> opposed >>> to a >>> *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows argument that unix >>> cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its easier to >>> train admins to use a gui,... >> >> Right. *sigh* This is exactly what I've been trying to express (To >> Apple, in various ways) about their foray into the server world... >> They have a hard time separating the Windows/Novel IT world which they >> have competed in for years, from us UNIX folks- and loose business >> because of it. >> >> They have a cool agenda, and have a lot of cool GUI work that comes >> from years of competing with NT etc..., but their sales folks need to >> step back and LISTEN to what the *Open Source UNIX Sysadmins* REALLY >> want. > > For sure. Just from a practical standpoint. Suppose you have to > administer > several Mac servers in a remote location behind multiple firewalls. > Having good cmd line equivalents to the admin tools will make life > much easier. It's hard to script a gui... Actually, OS X server has command line tools to do just about everything.. and all of the admin tools work via a xml over http based protocol, so it's not terrible hard to communicate with them even through firewalls. Apple Remote Desktop 2 is easy enough to punch through firewalls now, too, because it also supports VNC (client and server). It's also not just a virtual console, it now does all kinds of other things (install packages on 100 machines at once, etc.). >> I know you didn't ask for it, but my answer to that question is this: >> If you are involved with clustered supercomputing, G5 Servers are an >> inexpensive dream to work with. If you are working in an educational >> enviornment or small orginization who needs a basic org. server >> internally, and don't have massive resources to keep IT on staff to >> run >> it, an XServe is great. Also, if you are a sysadmin who comes from >> the >> NT/Novel/GUI world of things, (these folks getting fewer and fewer >> nowadays), it's dreamy too. >> If you are doing any server-side graphics processing and mass storage, >> on the public internet or internally, again, dreamy... > > I definitely asked for it ;) That's good info as I was under the > impression > that the G5 servers were seriously expensive. The Xserve G5s are seriously price competitive with equivalent stuff from other vendors... Especially Xsan and the Xserve RAID. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040703/29effcf9/attachment.bin From george Sat Jul 3 13:39:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:39:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] next week Message-ID: There's no question next week is going to be a bit nuts. We have the CA Cert meeting, which includes not just NYCBUG, but also NYLUG, New York PHP and more. Then we have our monthly meeting on Wednesday at a new location. Then from July 9-11 is Fifth HOPE/2600 conference in Manhattan, which many of us will be attending. We had planned on an InstallFest at Marco's in Bk, but I'd propose we hold it off to later in the month. Marco? others? thoughts? g From george Sat Jul 3 13:48:22 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:48:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] visiting CACert Message-ID: <2D702CD2-CD19-11D8-AC04-000D9328615E@sddi.net> One or more CA Cert guys from Australia are arriving on Monday. They need someone to meet them at Grand Central on Monday, and get them to the to the Apple Store and maybe give them a quick tour. If anyone's able to do it, please email Duane who's cc'd on this list. g From george Sat Jul 3 14:02:13 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:02:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fifth HOPE Message-ID: <1CB43C84-CD1B-11D8-AC04-000D9328615E@sddi.net> A few of us are going to be attending Fifth HOPE starting Friday am. Information is http://www.the-fifth-hope.org/hoop/index.khtml If interested, contact me off list. g From tismith Sat Jul 3 14:31:37 2004 From: tismith (Tim Smith) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <20040703170850.D2D9CA87A9@virtu.nyphp.org> Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get an external 56k modem, cheap? Tim Smith From pete Sat Jul 3 15:17:25 2004 From: pete (pete at nomadlogic.org) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: <20040703170850.D2D9CA87A9@virtu.nyphp.org> Message-ID: <3941.68.175.25.216.1088882245.squirrel@68.175.25.216> i might be able to get you an external modem from work. sgi keeps giving us modems with every new box we get, so we don't use them really. if you want i can bring one to the next meeting. -pete > > Anyone know where I can get an external 56k modem, cheap? > > Tim Smith > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From ike Sat Jul 3 16:38:25 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:38:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: <3941.68.175.25.216.1088882245.squirrel@68.175.25.216> References: <20040703170850.D2D9CA87A9@virtu.nyphp.org> <3941.68.175.25.216.1088882245.squirrel@68.175.25.216> Message-ID: Yo Tim, On Jul 3, 2004, at 3:17 PM, pete at nomadlogic.org wrote: > i might be able to get you an external modem from work. sgi keeps > giving > us modems with every new box we get, so we don't use them really. if > you > want i can bring one to the next meeting. > > -pete >> >> Anyone know where I can get an external 56k modem, cheap? Just saw an old US Robotics modem in a box close at hand- (price = free), will bring it to next meeting Wedsday for ya'- though the ones Pete has are new... so perhaps better for use in the end... Rocket- .ike From sunny-ml Fri Jul 2 18:17:24 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:17:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407021817.24877.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Friday 02 July 2004 11:33 am, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > > > some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over the > > > years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! > > > > or on a 'unix-like' system. . . > > osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an extreme > headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to > administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the > instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to > follow - for me at least. GUI administration at USENIX ? :^) Whats worse: this ? or Windows being POSIX compliant ? lol > > It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing > open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, > apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. > got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, > trolled) what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server as > opposed to a *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows argument > that unix cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its > easier to train admins to use a gui,... all too true man, all too true ... Sunny Dubey From marco Sun Jul 4 08:55:40 2004 From: marco (marco at metm.org) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:55:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] next week In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040704125539.GA4806@metm.org> On Sat, Jul 03, 2004 at 01:39:16PM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote: > We had planned on an InstallFest at Marco's in Bk, but I'd propose we > hold it off to later in the month. I am here all summer :( I have no problems hosting later in the month. -- Marco From sunny-ml Sun Jul 4 09:40:32 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:40:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: <200407021817.24877.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200407021817.24877.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200407040940.32459.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Friday 02 July 2004 06:17 pm, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Friday 02 July 2004 11:33 am, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: erm, I apologize for the bizarre lateness in this email. ?My email client was having some SSL issues and I was in DC, so I couldn't fix the issue till I got home. I had read Isaac Levy's post, and decided that this email wasn't worth sending. ?Problem was I forgot to remove this email from the queue, and once my SSL issues were fixed, my email client sent it out. doh! Apologizes to all. Sunny Dubey From tismith Sun Jul 4 13:19:15 2004 From: tismith (Tim Smith) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Issac: You guys are very thoughtful! So, now, unfortunately, my problem is I usually work Wednesday nights. Perhaps there's a willing soul from LI who could act as intermediary. Tim Smith On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > Yo Tim, > > On Jul 3, 2004, at 3:17 PM, pete at nomadlogic.org wrote: > > > i might be able to get you an external modem from work. sgi keeps > > giving > > us modems with every new box we get, so we don't use them really. if > > you > > want i can bring one to the next meeting. > > > > -pete > >> > >> Anyone know where I can get an external 56k modem, cheap? > > Just saw an old US Robotics modem in a box close at hand- (price = > free), will bring it to next meeting Wedsday for ya'- though the ones > Pete has are new... so perhaps better for use in the end... > > Rocket- > .ike > > From george Sun Jul 4 14:00:31 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:00:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: <200407021817.24877.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200407021817.24877.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <0A655DCF-CDE4-11D8-89DD-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 2, 2004, at 6:17 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Friday 02 July 2004 11:33 am, Rick Aliwalas wrote: >> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: >>>> some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over >>>> the >>>> years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! >>> >>> or on a 'unix-like' system. . . >> >> osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an >> extreme >> headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to >> administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the >> instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to >> follow - for me at least. > > GUI administration at USENIX ? :^) > > Whats worse: this ? or Windows being POSIX compliant ? lol The reality is that people go both ways. . .from the gui to cli, and vice versa. There's no set path. > >> >> It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing >> open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, >> apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. >> got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, >> trolled) what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server >> as >> opposed to a *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows >> argument >> that unix cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its >> easier to train admins to use a gui,... > > all too true man, all too true ... > Not to beat a dead horse/thread, but a big +1 on that. . . I remember so many times that the 'cli is dead' has been raised. . . but somehow, like BSD itself, the trolls are dead wrong. g From jesse Sun Jul 4 16:12:12 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:12:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F6997E1-CDF6-11D8-B2F0-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> .... gui vs command shell ... vale tudo death match fight competition I've always been scared of what's missing. What other settings are trickling down because of this radio button? With a small number of configs for any one service it's easier to see the whole picture; and even break the service if that's waht I need to do to learn. of course I do appreciate the other end of it despite it's other-ended features From louis Sun Jul 4 16:29:10 2004 From: louis (Louis Bertrand) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] mad uptime In-Reply-To: <0A655DCF-CDE4-11D8-89DD-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <200407021817.24877.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <0A655DCF-CDE4-11D8-89DD-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 2, 2004, at 6:17 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > > On Friday 02 July 2004 11:33 am, Rick Aliwalas wrote: > >> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > >>>> some other minor stuff. Went from BIND4, to BIND8, to BIND9 over > >>>> the > >>>> years w/o rebooting. Try that on Windoze! > >>> > >>> or on a 'unix-like' system. . . > >> > >> osx I assume? I went to the osx class here at usenix and got an > >> extreme > >> headache keeping up with all the windows/icons/drop-downs etc shown to > >> administer the box. It's so much easier to edit a text file - but the > >> instructor focused on the mac way. Which is fine but awful hard to > >> follow - for me at least. > > > > GUI administration at USENIX ? :^) > > > > Whats worse: this ? or Windows being POSIX compliant ? lol > > The reality is that people go both ways. . .from the gui to cli, and > vice versa. There's no set path. > > > > >> > >> It was mentioned a few times how great it was that apple is embracing > >> open source and its positive impact etc etc. As far as I can tell, > >> apple benefits from oss _far_ more than the other way around. > >> got flamed by some folks in the class when I innocently asked (ok, > >> trolled) what applications are they running that warrant a G5 server > >> as > >> opposed to a *BSD box. They came at me hard w/ the old windows > >> argument > >> that unix cmd-line is too cryptic, the learning curve is to high, its > >> easier to train admins to use a gui,... > > > > all too true man, all too true ... > > > > Not to beat a dead horse/thread, but a big +1 on that. . . > > I remember so many times that the 'cli is dead' has been raised. . . > > but somehow, like BSD itself, the trolls are dead wrong. > > I find it awkward to explain how verbally to do something with a GUI. There are too many different names for the widgets (er, controls) and I feel like I'm describing some sort of perverted techno version of a pirate's treasure map. "Go to the Options pull-down, select Preferences dot-dot-dot, then click on the Network tab and look half-way down and you'll see the Advanced button. Now click that and in the dialog it pops up..." Not to mention the hassle when some service pack changes the layout of the menu. CLI is straightforward; just dictate the commands. Ciao --Louis (lurker from GTABUG) From george Mon Jul 5 14:38:29 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:38:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX. . . Message-ID: <8260B14C-CEB2-11D8-94FA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Whoever was at USENIX, please contact me off list. . . We want some short writeups for Daemon News EZine. .. g From chrisc Mon Jul 5 21:27:56 2004 From: chrisc (Chris Coleman) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:27:56 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DN Ezine Message-ID: The DN Ezine is publishing tonight. If anyone wants to help out, let me know and I'll hook you up with Zdesk access. If you just want to chat with us, we hang out at irc.freenode.net #daemonnews We could always use some help publicizing the ezine after it publishes as well. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org BSD Mall http://www.bsdmall.com Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org From pete Mon Jul 5 22:09:02 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:09:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Question Message-ID: <40EA09BE.3010003@nomadlogic.org> So the CACert meeting was great tonight at the apple store, and I immediatly rushed home to get a proper cert setup for my mail/www stuff and I noticed this in the license on the www.cacert.org site: "The Subscriber acknowledges that it may be liable to pay CAcert Inc.'s cost recovery fees if applicable for this certificate as published at http://www.cacert.org" I am not sure what this means, perhaps someone could explain it to me. I guess I don't understand what recovery fee's they are talking about. -pete From dan Mon Jul 5 22:28:28 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:28:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Question In-Reply-To: <40EA09BE.3010003@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40E9D60C.32488.DA8016E9@localhost> On 5 Jul 2004 at 22:09, pete wright wrote: > So the CACert meeting was great tonight at the apple store, and I > immediatly rushed home to get a proper cert setup for my mail/www stuff > and I noticed this in the license on the www.cacert.org site: > > "The Subscriber acknowledges that it may be liable to pay CAcert Inc.'s > cost recovery fees if applicable for this certificate as published at > http://www.cacert.org" At what URL do you see the above? Google couldn't find it for me. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From tux Mon Jul 5 22:39:19 2004 From: tux (Kevin Reiter) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:39:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Question References: <40E9D60C.32488.DA8016E9@localhost> Message-ID: <000b01c46302$71182a30$6400a8c0@olympus> > > "The Subscriber acknowledges that it may be liable to pay CAcert Inc.'s > > cost recovery fees if applicable for this certificate as published at > > http://www.cacert.org" > > At what URL do you see the above? Google couldn't find it for me. I saw the same thing a few minutes ago... It's under the Server Certificate section, in the block of copy below where you paste your server's cert when requesting a new one. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 1635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040705/bdda85e6/attachment.bin From dan Mon Jul 5 22:43:20 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:43:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Question In-Reply-To: <000b01c46302$71182a30$6400a8c0@olympus> Message-ID: <40E9D988.23204.DA8DB369@localhost> On 5 Jul 2004 at 22:39, Kevin Reiter wrote: > > > "The Subscriber acknowledges that it may be liable to pay CAcert Inc.'s > > > cost recovery fees if applicable for this certificate as published at > > > http://www.cacert.org" > > > > At what URL do you see the above? Google couldn't find it for me. > > I saw the same thing a few minutes ago... It's under the Server Certificate > section, in the block of copy below where you paste your server's cert when > requesting a new one. i.e. https://www.cacert.org/server.php?id=5 I think the original poster should consult cacert.org -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From pete Mon Jul 5 22:53:32 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:53:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Question In-Reply-To: <40E9D988.23204.DA8DB369@localhost> References: <40E9D988.23204.DA8DB369@localhost> Message-ID: <40EA142C.4090702@nomadlogic.org> Dan Langille wrote: >On 5 Jul 2004 at 22:39, Kevin Reiter wrote: > > > >>>>"The Subscriber acknowledges that it may be liable to pay CAcert Inc.'s >>>>cost recovery fees if applicable for this certificate as published at >>>>http://www.cacert.org" >>>> >>>> >>>At what URL do you see the above? Google couldn't find it for me. >>> >>> >>I saw the same thing a few minutes ago... It's under the Server Certificate >>section, in the block of copy below where you paste your server's cert when >>requesting a new one. >> >> > >i.e. https://www.cacert.org/server.php?id=5 > > yep that's it, sorry i forgot to post the link. as you can see tho, the quote is a full clause of the agreement. >I think the original poster should consult cacert.org > > yea, the reason i posted it to talk was because i was hoping that the other folks who where present tonight may have an idea of what it's all about. -p From george Mon Jul 5 23:59:21 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:59:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] CA Cert Meeting Message-ID: pretty decent turnout. . . there are a number of unresolved questions which should be quite clear to everyone at the meeting, and in particular those at the bar afterwards. . . 1. three tenets of security are: authentication, non-repudiation, confidentiality. . .those need to be kept in mind with any security-related process or software. 2. guaranteeing the validity of an assurer on an annual basis or so. 3. guaranteeing the validity on a regular basis. 4. integration with ms' ie is critical. . opera, mozilla, safari are probably a cakewalk compared to ie. 5. legal issues with storage of certs. . .maintaining confidentiality. 6. it may make sense to deal with stages. . .mail certs, then on to www server certs down the road. there's more that was raised, but i think the major point is this. . . it needs to be approached as an open source project that deals with a set of confidential data. . . the process and protocols involved have not been adequately elaborated or articulated. . .basic questions remain unanswered, many of which were raised last thursday at USENIX and again tonight. that should be the focus now. . .not implementation, which should be postponed to a later date when the methods and protocols are set. . . i think snort is vaguely a great model. . .considered a lightweight compared to most ids systems, but their software still is the trend-setter for the ids industry. verisign, etc, doesn't take the big three of security (see point #1) seriously or does it have those considerations well thought out. . .we can have them well thought out and impressive and that can actually overhaul protocol in the field of ssl certs. the example from usenix about social engineering your way to a dun and bradstreet number is valid, whether it's actually true or false. we need to think out a way beyond the industry's current practices. no, it won't be adopted by citibank tomorrow, but certainly this implementation can change the level of general security, and possibly open itself up to the soho/small tech/high-security market. . .. sorry if some of this makes no sense to those who haven't followed the debate. . .it would probably make more sense if you checked out cacert.org. . . g From mlists Tue Jul 6 15:06:56 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:06:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SanDisk 128MB Secure Digital Memory Card For Sale Message-ID: <20040706190656.GR2411@bizintegrators.com> I have an SD card that I don't need, it is my friends, barely used since it turns out the camera doesn't support it. If someone wants it for $20, let me know, I'll bring it on Wednesday night and I have it always in my bag is anyone wants to meet somewhere in the city during the day. Bruno From george Tue Jul 6 15:56:42 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:56:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] emails. .. Message-ID: <99F62BAA-CF86-11D8-A01A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> there's two emails in here. . . Begin forwarded message: > From: Duane > Date: July 4, 2004 1:29:22 AM EDT > To: "G. Rosamond" > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Meeting Minutes from BOF] > > G. Rosamond wrote: > >> On Jul 4, 2004, at 1:07 AM, Duane wrote: >>> We have a fair bit to talk about... You might want to try and get >>> hold of some security guys to work out the full implications >>> expressed in the email I'm forwarding to you, I disagree with a lot >>> of it but I'm currently out numbered... >>> >> i browsed through it quickly. . . >> what are your specific disagreements? > > Big one is point 9, issuing of sub-root certificates could get our > root cert excluded from any kind of inclusion with browsers, but other > ones are handling of data backups by non-security guys, last thing we > need is a data breach of any kind, even if they can't break the server > they just need to break a windows box one of these guys gets copies of > info to, again would reduce our chances for inclusion... I need sleep, > but yea, find your nearest paranoid security guy and ask his thoughts > on it... > > > -- > > Best regards, > Duane > > http://www.cacert.org - Free Security Certificates > http://www.nodedb.com - Think globally, network locally > http://www.sydneywireless.com - Telecommunications Freedom > http://happysnapper.com.au - Sell your photos over the net! > http://e164.org - Using Enum.164 to interconnect asterisk servers > > "In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the > stream always wins; not through strength, but through persistence." Begin forwarded message: > From: Duane > Date: July 4, 2004 1:07:55 AM EDT > To: "G. Rosamond" > Subject: [Fwd: Meeting Minutes from BOF] > > > We have a fair bit to talk about... You might want to try and get hold > of some security guys to work out the full implications expressed in > the email I'm forwarding to you, I disagree with a lot of it but I'm > currently out numbered... > > -- > > Best regards, > Duane > > http://www.cacert.org - Free Security Certificates > http://www.nodedb.com - Think globally, network locally > http://www.sydneywireless.com - Telecommunications Freedom > http://happysnapper.com.au - Sell your photos over the net! > http://e164.org - Using Enum.164 to interconnect asterisk servers > > "In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the > stream always wins; not through strength, but through persistence." > > From: "Christian Barmala" > Date: July 2, 2004 12:13:12 PM EDT > To: "Duane Groth" , "Robert Cruikshank" > , "Adam Butler" > Cc: "Teus Hagen" , "J. Wren Hunt" > Subject: Meeting Minutes from BOF > > Hi, Hereby I send you the meeting minutes from yesterday evening. Duane suggested to publish it on our mailing list. I back this up, because it shows our openness and democratic structure, however I want to avoid miscommunication and fights in public, because this looks just unprofessional and statements which have to be revoked confuse our community unnecessary. There is nothing wrong with disagreement, this is democracy, but no personal attacks please. Therefore A0.1 (all): I want a "yes" from you that what I wrote down following this preface is actually what we discussed or I want the corrections before we make this public. Duane made a valid point that our decisions might be invalid, because we didn't communicate an agenda prior to the meeting to give everyone the chance to prepare. Therefore: A0.2 (all): If anyone wants to fight these decisions because of formal errors, he should speak up now. Otherwise I ask you to give permission to the agenda after the fact. Since the numbering in my notes and the numbering on the overhead projector was different and some topics have a relation that we didn't take into account when we set up the agenda, I took the freedom to renumber the topics. I also included some topics, which we discussed already over email. I hope this won't be considered a formal error. Legend: A (who):= Action Item to be done by whom. ---- To be published ---- Boston, Thursday July 2nd 2004 following the BOF session we discussed some topics regarding the technical an organizational structure of CAcert. 1. Formalization of association rules 1.1. Proof of non-profit Changes are necessary for taxation reasons. Duane suggested these changes via email, but we postponed it because preparation of Usenix had priority. These changes have to make sure: Members can't profit directly or indirectly from the association, if it is dissolved all assets are transferred to a similar non-profit assoc. This might also touch employment laws, because if CAcert was a business, membership might count as 2nd employment. We want a full review, not just the 2 topics spotted by Duane, because a change of the rules require a 100% vote and this will be hard to get once we have more members. A1.1 (all): Review and discuss the Association Rules (http://www.cacert.org/legal/CAcert_Rules.pdf) + Duanes' Email within 2 weeks and get an intermediate status (do we need more time? Which issues are discovered so far?) A1.2 (Teus): Teus sends list with his current concerns until end of the week. A1.3 (all): Once we settled how we want things to be, we will have it reviewed by an Australian Lawyer (Teus mentioned a Californian Lawyer who might be willing to do some work pro bono. I suggest to save this opportunity for a review of the RFC2527 policy, once it's finalized, because the policy might touch many international issues while the association rules are purely Australian.) 1.2 Voting Structure Who has a vote in which subject? No extra action, covered by A1.1 2. Financial reports We have income from Google ads, PayPal donations, NLnet, shared infrastructure. Up to now, no one was explicitly appointed to be the Treasurer. The role was shared between Duane and Robert. We prefer to have someone responsible for this and Robert agreed to do this. A2.1 (Robert): If Robert needs additional access or information, he will communicate this within 2 Weeks A2.1 (Robert): Regular (once a quarter?) financial reports by Robert published on the mailing list. 3. Steering committee Establishment of a steering committee consisting of non board member power of this committee to be determined A3 (Teus): Partially covered in the rules, Teus will check it. -- Shared access/control over the infrastructure by the board members -- 4. Regular backups of server to multiple board members 4.1 The source is intended to be made public anyway. Despite of the open questions to which extent dynamic content is covered by existing public licenses we agreed already, that we will start with a combination of GPL and FDL. A4.1(Duane): Create a tar-ball of the relevant files. A4.2 (all): Discuss to which extent a CVS makes sense. Teus and Wren offer their experience and advice. 4.2 The database and root cert to board members only A policy has to be set up, what these board members may do with these assets and how the are obliged to protect this sensitive information. A4.1(Duane): Come up with suggestions for such a policy within 2 weeks. A4.2 (all): Decide who will be these members (Suggestion: Robert, Adam) A4.3 (Duane): Technically implement the backup as soon as the policy has been agreed on. 5. Root access to 2 other directors Currently CAcert is a guest on Sydneywireless's server. Therefore only Duane has root access. By donation of Nlnet we will have our own server soon. As soon as the new server is installed 2 Members will get root access. Currently this is not possible, because this is not our server. By the way: The 2nd machine, which holds the root cert and is only connected via serial link, is a Laptop donated by Robert. A5.1 (Duane): In two weeks Duane will give us an intermediate status of the installation of the new server A5.2 (all): Decide who will be these members (Suggestion: Adam Christian) 6. Physical access to the site. The location is sponsored by Duane's employer. Usually no one external has access to the Site. Duane as an employee has access. A procedure has to be set up, how someone beside Duane can request access to the site, in the exceptional case when it should become necessary. A6.1 (Duane): Will document the organization that has physical control over the system, communicate contact information, communicate the procedure to send a representative. He will give us a progress report by 21 july A6.2 (Christian): As soon as Duane documented this, Christian will put it into the RFC2527 policy template. 7. Domain name control to 2 other directors (Robert, Adam) A7 (Duane): Within 2 weeks Duane will transfer domain ownership to the association. Discussion among the user community 8. Privacy issues with government document copies Is it necessary/beneficial to keep the documentation or are the privacy issues too high? It was proposed just to store a hash of some document data. It was also suggested to attach an expiry date to this hash, which would force users to reidentify regularly. It was also discussed how to handle organizations rather than individuals. Suggestion: 2 board members of the organization have to be authenticated by CAcert and a copy of the incorporation statement has to be sent to CAcert. No decision has been taken. This is just a base for future discussion. -- Duane had to leave the meeting, to care for our server, which has been slashdotted. -- 9. Do we want to issue sub CA certificates? The question came up, because our partner, eGroupWare, has a project in a large government organization. In addition several Universities approached us with this request. These organizations ran their own CA for years and thus cannot be convinced to give up this working solution and make them dependent on our web site. Although this raises several policy issues, we agreed on the statement: "Cooperation with other organizations is in the interest of CAcert and in line with our intent to provide a service to the community. We will decide on a case by case basis which benefits come fro the specific organization and to which extent their policy matches our policy." A9.1 (Christian): Communicate to eGroupWare that we are willing to consider to issue them a sub CA certificate. Ask them to send their policy to CAcert for review. A9.2 (all): Within 1 month after submission of eGroupWare's policy decide if we accept it or if not, what has to be changed. (The timeline might be extended, in case we have to prepare for another event) ---- End of Publication ---- I noticed that a lot of action items have to be done by Duane. This is because he founded the system and got everything running. The actions above are meant to share the control and unload some workload from him. As the one who coded the system he will still be the one with the most knowledge over the system and some work and information flow still has to go over his desk. Special thanks to Wren for proof reading this document. Christian From george Tue Jul 6 17:37:52 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:37:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] usenix pictures.. Message-ID: these were taken by matt dillon of dragonflybsd .. . you can catch one picture of me with the camera in the misc category. . . g From george Tue Jul 6 18:37:29 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:37:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] linux & bsd Message-ID: <10142696-CF9D-11D8-A01A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> a good four years old, but still interesting. . . http://sites.inka.de/mips/unix/bsdlinux.html From truk Tue Jul 6 23:14:58 2004 From: truk (Kurt Miller) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:14:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Microsoft VirtualPC for Mac References: <00a601c4555e$97a116a0$290110ac@truk> <3C2CB80C-CB29-11D8-81F4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <009e01c463d0$95827a00$290110ac@truk> Hi ike (or is it rocket?), Thanks for all the great info. From: "Isaac Levy" > Also, a drawback, it only functions on a primary ethernet nic- > not over a wifi interface for some reason... Could you expand on this a bit more. Are you saying that if you're using a wireless card the guest os in the VirtualPC can't talk to the rest of the network and the internet? That would be a bummer for me. > If you want to see it in action, email me before the next meeting so I > bring my rig... > I'd love to see it, but I just caught this message and I probably won't have time to line up a sitter for the kids by tomorrow. If its not too much trouble, could you bring it incase I can make it? -Kurt From george Wed Jul 7 09:13:03 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:13:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] usenix pictures.. In-Reply-To: <20040707070306.733c9fe0@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <20040707070306.733c9fe0@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <60FD1C7D-D017-11D8-9D37-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 7, 2004, at 7:03 AM, michael wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:37:52 -0400 > G.Rosamond wrote: > >> these were taken by matt dillon of dragonflybsd .. . >> >> you can catch one picture of me with the camera in the misc category. >> . . >> >> g > > > ..no link or attachment... > so demanding. .. fine, here it is: http://apollo.backplane.com/USENIX2004/ it was actually on fbsd-hackers. . . g From sunny-ml Wed Jul 7 09:33:27 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:33:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] usenix pictures.. In-Reply-To: <60FD1C7D-D017-11D8-9D37-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <20040707070306.733c9fe0@delinux.abwatley.com> <60FD1C7D-D017-11D8-9D37-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200407070933.27761.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 07 July 2004 09:13 am, G.Rosamond wrote: > so demanding. .. > > fine, here it is: > > http://apollo.backplane.com/USENIX2004/ > > it was actually on fbsd-hackers. . . > > g hah! I feel sorry for the FBSDers who have Sony laptops ... ouch ... that must hurt! Sunny Dubey From dan Wed Jul 7 10:35:21 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:35:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] usenix pictures.. In-Reply-To: <200407070933.27761.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <60FD1C7D-D017-11D8-9D37-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40EBD1E9.26705.E2400D85@localhost> On 7 Jul 2004 at 9:33, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Wednesday 07 July 2004 09:13 am, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > so demanding. .. > > > > fine, here it is: > > > > http://apollo.backplane.com/USENIX2004/ > > > > it was actually on fbsd-hackers. . . > > > > g > > hah! I feel sorry for the FBSDers who have Sony laptops ... > > ouch ... that must hurt! What are you referring to? -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From george Wed Jul 7 11:08:49 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:08:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Kirk McKusick meeting Message-ID: <8D42EB4B-D027-11D8-AE0D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> I spoke to Kirk McKusick at USENIX, and he will be in NYC in mid-October. . we have a tentative NYCBUG meeting planned for him Oct 16, on a Saturday afternoon. The meeting will be confirmed in early September, but please keep in mind we need to find a large space, a bit quieter than the apple store for that meeting. It may be worth paying money for a decent space for that meeting. It would be great to have other UNIX groups in NYC to cosponsor this meeting. . . g From mspitze1 Wed Jul 7 23:09:04 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:09:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: [NYSA] Announcement: Nagios and monitoring mtg. July 14th Message-ID: <20040707230904.2a42d522@bogomips.optonline.net> Looks interesting marc Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:10:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Feldman" To: nysa-members at nysa.org Subject: [NYSA] Announcement: Nagios and monitoring mtg. July 14th We are pleased to announce that NYSA will be presenting a talk on Nagios and monitoring on July 14th. We look forward to seeing you there. PLEASE remember to RSVP, details below. DATE Wednesday, July 14th, 2004 6:30 pm to 6:45 pm - Announcements 6:45 pm to 7:45 pm - Main Presentation 7:45 pm to 9:00 pm - Open Floor TOPIC Nagios is a host and service monitoring system primarily used for network monitoring and alerting. It is an open-source project that incorporates: - A plug-in architecture for configurable and highly customizable alerting - Email and Pager alerting as well as escalation features - A web-based GUI that serves as "tactical command center" - A server backend that runs on most *nix variants and agents that run on many other platforms. The NYSA talk will cover the following: - An overview of the System. - What Nagios looks like. - An architectural discussion of Nagios core components and plugins - Deployment Strategies - Experience using Nagios - Stated Future Directions of the project - Conclusions - Q&A SPEAKER Keith Weinberg has spent the majority of his career as a programmer and Unix Systems Administrator at financial firms on or near Wall Street. He can be found installing systems and writing automation components at his current employer, a prominent hedge fund in Connecticut. During the dot-com implosion, Keith was immersed in the Linux/BSD world and didn't emerge unscathed. Working as the head of digital infrastructure for Clearchannel Communications and head of infrastructure at Fulcrum Analytics (a database marketing and analytics firm), he enjoyed a heavy dose of open-source philosophy and eventually, business reality. His primary professional computing interests include large-scale systems architecture, automation and monitoring. Personally, he uses a Macintosh at home and feels a little bit guilty. Keith has a BSE in Computer Science from Princeton University where he was the founder of the Princeton ACM and recipient of the AT&T Engineer of the year award. ***NEW LOCATION*** Sun Microsystems Inc Forth floor, Room 4140, "Grammercy Park" 101 Park Ave New York, NY 10178-0001 RSVP Please RSVP by sending an e-mail to rsvp at nysa.org with a subject line of "AUTO RSVP NYSA firstname lastname". The RSVP list will be given to building security. If you do not RSVP, you will not be able to attend this event. Please RSVP now if you plan to attend. PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION Sun Microsystems, is one block south of Grand Central, on the corner of Park Ave and 41st St. ************************************************************* To unsubscribe from this list, send mail with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message to majordomo at nysa.org. For administrivia or questions about NYSA, send mail to nysa-info at nysa.org. Check out the NYSA web site at http://www.nysa.org ************************************************************* From george Thu Jul 8 11:11:57 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:11:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Secure Architectures with OpenBSD books. . . Message-ID: <2791D2BC-D0F1-11D8-9378-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Big thanks to Brandon for last night's meeting. As a number of people got copies of Brandon & Jose's book, we should do the favor of having his book reviewed. . . Daemon News EZine needs a review. Our new NYCBUG site needs a review. . . volunteers? This is what giving thanks to the speaker really is. . . g From george Thu Jul 8 12:01:30 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:01:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] some comments, please Message-ID: <13C895F8-D0F8-11D8-9378-000D9328615E@sddi.net> i'm posting this to slashdot book reviews. . .comments appreciated. . .some rewriting from the soon-to-be-released Daemon News EZine version. . . A flurry of BSD UNIX-related (Berkeley Software Distribution) books have hit the bookstores over the past few years. From books specific to OpenBSD (Secure Architectures with OpenBSD) to the reissue of The Design and Implementation of the BSD Operating System for FreeBSD 5.x expected in August 2004, to Michael Lucas' series of BSD Books from NoStarch Press, print documentation is certainly available for those interested in learning about the free, open source UNIX system which powers operations such as Yahoo! portal and Sendmail.org website, Verio and Pair hosting, not the mention Netcraft, the premier web server survey site. Dru Lavigne's BSD Hacks (O'Reilly and Associates, May 2004), is the latest book in these releases, and is an enormously useful resource for systems administrators and end-users alike. BSD Hacks is the first book that is almost solely focused on hacks for sysadmins, without boring you with the details for basic operating system installation and configuration that has been so well documented elsewhere. For those who find difficulty in BSD installs and other fundamentals, it's best to start with the FreeBSD Handbook, the NetBSD Guide or the OpenBSD FAQ. It's not just for sysadmins though. Intermediate and advanced BSD users will also find the book an excellent tool. There's lots of good hacks buried in the various BSD books, around the internet in different how-to's and tutorials. But BSD hacking is the sole purpose of BSD Hacks. No need to browse through install screens and overviews of TCP/IP before getting to the heart of the matter. With 100 listed hacks, multiplied by an impressive level of detailed angles for each, Dru provides an array that demands the placement of this book right in your server room, not in a pile of "must-read-at-some-distant-point-in-the-future" texts. The majority of hacks are applicable to all the BSDs, including Darwin and OS X, although some are specific to one BSD or another. This review obviously can't list every hack, although you would be smart to sit and work through the book yourself over a weekend or two. But it is possible to provide a good flavor of BSD Hacks in brief. O'Reilly and Associates does give a good glimpse on their Sample Hacks page. But let's do a quick work through ourselves. The first chapter is called "Customizing the User Environment," and is probably best for end-users looking to go beyond their first steps. But it does include some useful hacks, such as "Use an Interactive Shell" that certainly fit well into the arsenal of any sysadmin, not to mention Hack #12 "Use Multiple Screens on One Terminal." The second chapter, "Dealing with Files and Filesystems" also contains gems for both end-users and sysadmins. The use of mtree, which maps a directory hierarchy, is mentioned as a tool for recovery. Later on in chapter 6, Dru details its use for making a hacked data integrity checker, thus filling the gap often played by products such as Tripwire. Another great tool Dru covers in the second chapter is g4u, a free ghosting program that gives you the ability for quick restores over ftp. Ghosting a drive image is an incredibly useful tool, whether it's about replicating servers or doing a quick reinstall and configuration when a server fails in an emergency. Chapter 3 is entitled "Boot and Login Environments." It gives some hacks that aren't just for basic system administration, but also some useful security ones including changing your /etc/passwd file to Blowfish encryption and utilizing OPIE for one-time passwords, which is built into FreeBSD. "Backup Up" is the focus of Chapter 4. It includes some very creative methods of dealing with maintaining that necessity, and also includes an excellent primer on Bacula, which is increasingly gaining prominence as a cross-platform backup system. Chapter 5 covers "Network Hacks," and continues on educating a sysadmin. Included in this chapter is the tcpdump program, a vital tool for watching traffic flowing by your network interfaces. There's a strong security focus in Chapter 6, entitled "Securing the System." While security hacks are sprinkled generously throughout the book, this chapter works with firewalling with IPF and PF, in addition to covering SSH and Snort. It also includes the earlier mentioned intrusion detection light version with mtree. Chapter 7, "Going Beyond the Basics" explores scripting, analyzing dreaded buffer overflows and more. She also includes a bit on "Creating a Trade Show Demo," not something you'd expect documented in print anywhere, but nevertheless something that is quite useful for anyone working for the BSDs at a conference. Dru continues with "Keeping Up-to-Date" in Chapter 8, which includes useful details on upgrading and downgrading your installed ports. The final chapter is "Grokking BSD." "Grok," as Dru comments, refers to the science fiction writer Heinlein's Martian phrase for having a "thorough understanding." Dru covers creating your own manual pages, dealing with custom patches, playing with dictionaries and more. Certainly there's no walls between each chapter, as many of the hacks could be shifted around. All the more reason to work your way through the book from beginning to end. One useful addition for this book could have been somehow denoting which of the BSDs, or all, the hacks were appropriate to. Certainly not all are available to Darwin and Apple's OS X, without at least further knowledge of hacking port source code. While many of the hacks are found somewhere in the manual pages, on some useful website, buried in another book or in the minds of some developer somewhere, but not necessarily in the annals of official documentation. There's no single book or site that provides the depth and breadth that Dru provides. It's a project that no one individual is capable of doing. Dru managed to tap into the thoughts of dozens of developers and sysadmins around the world, greatly enhancing the variety of hacks in this book. Whether you're a sysadmin managing hundreds of servers, or a power user ready to go beyond the obvious, BSD Hacks belongs next to your CRT. Spend a weekend working through this book. You won't regret it. From george Fri Jul 9 00:35:26 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:35:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] fifth hope Message-ID: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> if anyone's going tomorrow.. .bruno and i are meeting for breakfast at 9 am in front of the hotel. my cell is 917-968-1900. g From bob Fri Jul 9 00:43:16 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:43:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] fifth hope In-Reply-To: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <7EA0CB37-D162-11D8-848F-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:35 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > if anyone's going tomorrow.. .bruno and i are meeting for breakfast > at 9 am in front of the hotel. > > my cell is 917-968-1900. I have a ticket, so I'll be there, but I don't think I'm going to be able to come up there until late in the afternoon.. lots of work this week. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040709/f16e982d/attachment.bin From chrislist Fri Jul 9 00:48:50 2004 From: chrislist (Chris McCulloh) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:48:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] fifth hope In-Reply-To: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040709004850.4af1fe9f@st0wable> On 09 Jul 2004 at 00:35, G.Rosamond posited: > if anyone's going tomorrow.. .bruno and i are meeting for breakfast at > 9 am in front of the hotel. > > my cell is 917-968-1900. I'll be around as well, but not that early -- work is still work. Hopefully will cut out a bit early in the day to make some of the talks. -chris -- Chris McCulloh, CISSP Secure Systems Architect Sinetimore, LLC e: cmcculloh at sinetimore.com t: 212.504.0288 f: 212.656.1469 w: http://www.sinetimore.com a: 40 Broad Street, 4th Floor, New York, NY 10004, USA key: http://www.sinetimore.com/chriskey.pub : [ 9508 07E0 9E6C DD05 4419 40FA 4D96 FD82 24CE 0273 ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040709/ca61678d/attachment.bin From lists Fri Jul 9 07:46:07 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:46:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Sun Hardware In-Reply-To: <20040629213255.75411c2c@bogomips.optonline.net> References: <20040627135548.01f619e5@bogomips.optonline.net> <40E09A44.1050102@genoverly.net> <20040628210349.55d21f20@bogomips.optonline.net> <40E1351D.8000604@genoverly.net> <20040629064343.6dcffc32@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040629145007.1ee97702@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040629213255.75411c2c@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: <20040709074607.25d43433@delinux.abwatley.com> Off Topic: I have a tape back up solution in need of attention; StorEdge L1000 library with twin DLT7000 drives. Can anyone recommend a Sun Certified service technician I can put on my short list? Michael -- --- From ike Fri Jul 9 11:24:03 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:24:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] fifth hope In-Reply-To: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <02D4F5BA-D1BC-11D8-B71D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi All, On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:35 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > if anyone's going tomorrow.. .bruno and i are meeting for breakfast > at 9 am in front of the hotel. I'll show, but don't know what time... Rocket- .ike From george Fri Jul 9 11:26:01 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:26:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] fifth hope In-Reply-To: <02D4F5BA-D1BC-11D8-B71D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <02D4F5BA-D1BC-11D8-B71D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <48E78DAA-D1BC-11D8-8ADB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 9, 2004, at 11:24 AM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:35 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> if anyone's going tomorrow.. .bruno and i are meeting for breakfast >> at 9 am in front of the hotel. > > I'll show, but don't know what time... > Rocket- > .ike okay. . .we're here. .. g From lists Fri Jul 9 18:46:48 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:46:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BEHIND DragonFly BSD Message-ID: <20040709184648.7dcc4151@delinux.abwatley.com> BEHIND DragonFly BSD Onlamp - USA For years we had FreeBSD for performance, NetBSD for portability, and OpenBSD for security. Now a new project, focused on innovation ... http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/07/08/dragonfly_bsd_interview.html -- --- From pastormac Fri Jul 9 19:06:57 2004 From: pastormac (Pastor Mac) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:06:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: <48E78DAA-D1BC-11D8-8ADB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: Hi all-- It was finally cool to (flesh)meet some of you Monday at the Apple Store. It was events like that and stuff I'm reading about on the list that make me wish I was making a 100k a year and living in Manhattan (I suspect you almost need that much to live in Manhattan)...but right now I'd be happy with the 100k... Anyhew, is there an installfest coming up soon? I've a couple of beige Power Mac clones I'd like to try NetBSD on. Thanks to Kevin Reiter, I'll be getting FreeBSD going on a x86 box hopefully next week. Like I said in a previous post, I'm trying hard not to sound overly dorky and I really do appreciate the welcome you all have given to this newbie. Also wik: I know I live in Sussex which might be off the edge of the universe for some but I'd be happy to host some form of festive gathering in the "country" sometime this summer. I live literally next to the fire house so safety can generally be assured...we have an outdoor grill and we live at a farmside garden so there's a bit of space. Unfortunately I'm not wireless yet (I do have 1.5 mip DSL) so if you bring machines we'll have to have a wired switch. If there's interest in a party/installfest up here, email me and let's put something together. Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From bob Fri Jul 9 19:31:12 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:31:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10D44168-D200-11D8-AF2C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 9, 2004, at 7:06 PM, Pastor Mac wrote: > Also wik: I know I live in Sussex which might be off the edge of the > universe for some but I'd be happy to host some form of festive > gathering in the "country" sometime this summer. I live literally > next to the fire house so safety can generally be assured...we have an > outdoor grill and we live at a farmside garden so there's a bit of > space. Unfortunately I'm not wireless yet (I do have 1.5 mip DSL) so > if you bring machines we'll have to have a wired switch. If there's > interest in a party/installfest up here, email me and let's put > something together. Well it only takes one wired powerbook/iBook to create a wireless node, and I'm sure lots of people have spare 802.11 APs just lying around these days :) Sounds fun though, but transportation might be tricky since some of us city folk don't have cars. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040709/cbf083c2/attachment.bin From tux Fri Jul 9 19:50:04 2004 From: tux (Kevin Reiter) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:50:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: References: <48E78DAA-D1BC-11D8-8ADB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040709195004.4c5480ae@zeus.geekis-kahn.net> > ...but right now I'd be happy with the 100k... ...wouldn't we all.. :P > Also wik: I know I live in Sussex which might be off the edge of the > universe for some but I'd be happy to host some form of festive > gathering in the "country" sometime this summer. I live literally > next to the fire house so safety can generally be assured...we have an > outdoor grill and we live at a farmside garden so there's a bit of > space. Unfortunately I'm not wireless yet (I do have 1.5 mip DSL) so > if you bring machines we'll have to have a wired switch. If there's > interest in a party/installfest up here, email me and let's put > something together. Count me and my WAP in, along with some other spare hardware if you need it (8 port switch, 2x CRT, cables, etc.) -Kevin From george Fri Jul 9 12:37:34 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:37:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE spiel. . . Message-ID: <4790E1F8-D1C6-11D8-9A89-000D9328615E@sddi.net> I had heard this before. . .but Captain Crunch, who gave the meeting on Spam, described the the hosts in his honeypot network. . . multiple w32 on VMWare, and OBSD for monitoring, etc. . . g From mspitze1 Fri Jul 9 20:16:46 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:16:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] fifth hope In-Reply-To: <02D4F5BA-D1BC-11D8-B71D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <664E029A-D161-11D8-8605-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <02D4F5BA-D1BC-11D8-B71D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20040709201646.6996af4b@bogomips.optonline.net> On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:24:03 -0400 Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > On Jul 9, 2004, at 12:35 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > if anyone's going tomorrow.. .bruno and i are meeting for breakfast > > > > at 9 am in front of the hotel. > > I'll show, but don't know what time... > Rocket- > .ike > I will be around sat and sun, see ya then. marc > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From sunny-ml Fri Jul 9 20:20:36 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:20:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE spiel. . . In-Reply-To: <4790E1F8-D1C6-11D8-9A89-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <4790E1F8-D1C6-11D8-9A89-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200407092020.36916.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Friday 09 July 2004 12:37 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > I had heard this before. . .but Captain Crunch, who gave the meeting on > Spam, described the the hosts in his honeypot network. . . multiple w32 > on VMWare, and OBSD for monitoring, etc. . . So what exactly are we supposed to learn from these honey-pot networks that we don't already know ? heh Sunny Dubey From george Fri Jul 9 20:26:56 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:26:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE spiel. . . In-Reply-To: <200407092020.36916.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <4790E1F8-D1C6-11D8-9A89-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407092020.36916.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2004, at 8:20 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Friday 09 July 2004 12:37 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: >> I had heard this before. . .but Captain Crunch, who gave the meeting >> on >> Spam, described the the hosts in his honeypot network. . . multiple >> w32 >> on VMWare, and OBSD for monitoring, etc. . . > > So what exactly are we supposed to learn from these honey-pot networks > that we > don't already know ? heh > > Well. . .i just asked him that. ..we literally just met him in the street. He uses the honeypot to collect virus information and various attacks, and dumps it into a python based program and creates snort signatures. . which he pumps back to snort. i know, sounds pretty useless, sunny. . ;-) g From pastormac Fri Jul 9 20:42:04 2004 From: pastormac (Pastor Mac) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:42:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: <20040709195004.4c5480ae@zeus.geekis-kahn.net> Message-ID: On Friday, July 9, 2004, at 07:50 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote: > Count me and my WAP in, along with some other spare hardware if you > need it (8 port switch, 2x CRT, cables, etc.) Dude, you are the man... Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From pastormac Fri Jul 9 20:47:42 2004 From: pastormac (Pastor Mac) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:47:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: <10D44168-D200-11D8-AF2C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: On Friday, July 9, 2004, at 07:31 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Well it only takes one wired powerbook/iBook to create a wireless > node, and I'm sure lots of people have spare 802.11 APs just lying > around these days :) Sounds fun though, but transportation might be > tricky since some of us city folk don't have cars. Possibly a road trip? There is train service to Port Jervis and I could meet several (I have a Taurus station wagon) at the PJ station. After sufficient recovery from the previous night's ingestion of assorted liquids, I can be the bus back to PJ. I would prefer the whole group to travel together, however. MTA all the way. Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From george Fri Jul 9 21:14:36 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:14:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82259080-D20E-11D8-9DD6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 9, 2004, at 8:47 PM, Pastor Mac wrote: > On Friday, July 9, 2004, at 07:31 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> Well it only takes one wired powerbook/iBook to create a wireless >> node, and I'm sure lots of people have spare 802.11 APs just lying >> around these days :) Sounds fun though, but transportation might be >> tricky since some of us city folk don't have cars. > > Possibly a road trip? There is train service to Port Jervis and I > could meet several (I have a Taurus station wagon) at the PJ station. > After sufficient recovery from the previous night's ingestion of > assorted liquids, I can be the bus back to PJ. I would prefer the > whole group to travel together, however. MTA all the way. > Pax, > I think it's a good intention and concept. . .but I think it's a bit of a stretch. . . It would take longer for us to get to Port Jervis than to Croatia. (I have only been to the former.) It's the NYCbug. . .we should focus our activities in locations reasonable to Manhattan and to the boroughs. . . It might make more sense to do the install fest at Marco's which is a short subway ride from Manhattan. I know it's also possible to get some locations in Manhattan. . .but someone would have to sort that out. . . g From george Fri Jul 9 22:30:27 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:30:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] some more notes on Fifth HOPE Message-ID: <1AA9C262-D219-11D8-8B6B-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Some additional notes from the 2600 Conference today. . .remember, it continues tomorrow at the Pennsylvania Hotel at 7th & 33rd street. . .only $50. A few of us were sitting outside trying to find wireless connectivity in the area, as Verizon screwed up the HOPE circuits, and an older man started asking a barrage of questions. It was Captain Crunch himself. What an honor. Told him about KisMac, which he took the URL for. . .If you don't know who he is, google for his name and a certain whistle and you'll understand it all. . . How the Great Wall Works. Bill Xia spoke about the Chinese gov't's firewall, probably built with the assistance of Cisco. . .They censor sites external to China with DNS poisoing, tcp session hijacking, ip blacklisting of source/destination IP and port. SSH tunnels are a way around for now. Not to be on the gov't's side of this. . .but why don't they just cache the sites they *do* want to give internally, and block everything else? And proxy all mail. . .Since 2000, over 40 documented cases of arrests tied to "illegal" internet activities. . hmmm. . .If the US is 1/3.5 the size of China, that would be over 11 people. . .Something I'm sure the US gov't has matched if not surpassed. Bill is involved in dit-inc.us, which works to bypass the gov't's firewall. He provided a few other sites, including faluninfo.us, hrichina.org, 64memo.org, china21.org. . .Fascinating stuff. Definitely an effort worth giving your support to. Security Through Diversity Another great meeting. . .first part based only on genetics and the role of diversity in species' survival. Then connected to technology and computing. . .whether on the application end, os, etc. Had a great list of bibliographies for his talk, but was unable to get them down, and he wasn't too helpful in getting them to anyone. Referenced authors included Zhang on Hetero. . .I raised point about difficulty about diversity in business sites, as there's been the complete dismantling of open standards. . .so interoperability is hard. . .He raised the point of reverse engineering, such as with SMB. . .excellent point. He mentioned that OpenSSH, Apache and more rely on one library, another indication of the problems with diversity. One bibliography I did catch was Linger: "Systematic Generation of Stochastic Diversity as an Intrusion Barrier in Survivable Systems Software" 1999 Pretty scary title for a paper, but excellent concept. He also contrasted security through diversity versus security through obscurity, an approach by many vendors. CryptoPhone Missed some of this meeting. . .based in Berlin, on GSM, of course. Triband, CP200. Other solutions include Speak Freely, Nautilus, PGP-Phone, h.323 over IPSec, Skype, and other closed source. All have various problems. Hardware is HTC Himalaya XDA-II, MDA-II. Nokia 9210, with Windows CE, as he said it was the easiest to access code, as most is open. Locked down os Hope some people found that useful. g From bob Sat Jul 10 02:09:17 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:09:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] some more notes on Fifth HOPE In-Reply-To: <1AA9C262-D219-11D8-8B6B-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <1AA9C262-D219-11D8-8B6B-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2004, at 10:30 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Security Through Diversity > > Another great meeting. . .first part based only on genetics and the > role of diversity in species' survival. Then connected to technology > and computing. . .whether on the application end, os, etc. Had a > great list of bibliographies for his talk, but was unable to get them > down, and he wasn't too helpful in getting them to anyone. Referenced > authors included Zhang on Hetero. . .I raised point about difficulty > about diversity in business sites, as there's been the complete > dismantling of open standards. . .so interoperability is hard. . .He > raised the point of reverse engineering, such as with SMB. . > .excellent point. He mentioned that OpenSSH, Apache and more rely on > one library, another indication of the problems with diversity. One > bibliography I did catch was Linger: "Systematic Generation of > Stochastic Diversity as an Intrusion Barrier in Survivable Systems > Software" 1999 Pretty scary title for a paper, but excellent concept. > He also contrasted security through diversity versus security through > obscurity, an approach by many vendors. Dude needs to do his research before he talks out of his ass. GnuTLS has an OpenSSL compatibility shim that will probably compile (at least) Apache but maybe OpenSSH too. OpenSSH and Apache may use OpenSSL in their implementation, but there are a few alternative implementations of SSH (lsh, conch, etc.) and LOTS of HTTPS implementations that do not. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040710/558096f2/attachment.bin From chrislist Sat Jul 10 03:27:17 2004 From: chrislist (Chris McCulloh) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:27:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] some more notes on Fifth HOPE In-Reply-To: <1AA9C262-D219-11D8-8B6B-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <1AA9C262-D219-11D8-8B6B-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040710032717.1d296704@st0wable> On 09 Jul 2004 at 22:30, G.Rosamond posited: > Bill Xia spoke about the Chinese gov't's firewall, probably built with > the assistance of Cisco. . .They censor sites external to China with > DNS poisoing, tcp session hijacking, ip blacklisting of > source/destination IP and port. SSH tunnels are a way around for now. > Not to be on the gov't's side of this. . .but why don't they just cache > the sites they *do* want to give internally, and block everything else? I managed to catch the latter 60% of this, and quite honestly, after discussing the scenario with one of my business partners, it really made me think about things. At first, it seems somewhat unclear why Cisco would go out of their way to build a device that does packet processing at quite a different level than anywhere else. This is a device that would have to provide processing capabilities much greater than anybody else had previously asked for. Enter Cisco's newest product: CRS-1. The Carrier Routing System 1. It purports to route up to 92 Terabits per second. Yes, 92 Tbps. All of a sudden, it just seems to be too coincidental. Call it paranoid conspiracy ideas, call it whatever you want, but this talk sort of pulled it all together for me. I wish I had the budget to explore the CRS-1 and see if it does contain some type of hidden functionality or remnant traces of code that may be in place in China. But that's at least a remote possibility that can't be completely excluded. In regards to your mention of caching, well, I have to admit that's quite a novel solution from their point of view. However, the problem still remains of how to determine what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. Given their (supposed) agenda to only hide political or news information they deem could be improper, there becomes far more information for them to process and admit into the cache as acceptable. As a result, this creates a LOT of work for them if they wish their country to be able to prosper from the amount of valuable knowledge that is freely available. In the end, although this follows the more secure idea of "deny by default," the Internet as a whole ends up being useless because the security comes at far too great a cost in time/money, and potentially lost valuable resources. George -- I saw you briefly during the Cryptophone talk today, however it was as I was on the phone running downstairs and outside to meet with somebody who's badge I had. My first clue was the Apple AC adapter lying on the ground with the daemon sticker on it. Unfortunately I was too busy, but I'll stop and say hello sometime tomorrow. -chris -- Chris McCulloh, CISSP Secure Systems Architect Sinetimore, LLC e: cmcculloh at sinetimore.com t: 212.504.0288 f: 212.656.1469 w: http://www.sinetimore.com a: 40 Broad Street, 4th Floor, New York, NY 10004, USA key: http://www.sinetimore.com/chriskey.pub : [ 9508 07E0 9E6C DD05 4419 40FA 4D96 FD82 24CE 0273 ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040710/4da1bedd/attachment.bin From lists Sat Jul 10 06:44:12 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:44:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly Message-ID: <40EFC87C.1060904@genoverly.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, July 9 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:06:58 -0700 ================================================================ O'Reilly News for User Group Members July 9, 2004 ================================================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Book News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials, 2nd Edition -Mastering Oracle SQL, 2nd Edition -Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition -Just a Geek -Version Control with Subversion -3D Game-Based Filmmaking: The Art of Machinima -Eclipse Cookbook -Flash Hacks -The Spam Letters -Online Investing Hacks ---------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Events ---------------------------------------------------------------- -O'Reilly at Macworld Conference & Expo, Boston, MA--July 12-15 -Chuck Toporek ("Inside .Mac" & "Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell"), Chicago Apple Store, Chicago, IL--July 16 -O'Reilly at Syllabus2004, San Francisco, CA--July 18-22 -O'Reilly Open Source Convention, Portland, OR--July 26-30 -Dan Gillmor ("We the Media") and Paul Graham ("Hackers & Painters"), Powell's Books, Portland, OR--July 28 -Tim O'Reilly Speaks at the Portland Area .NET User Group Meeting, Portland, OR--July 29 -Alex Martelli ("Python in a Nutshell"), Powell's Books, Portland, OR--July 29 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Conference News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -O'Reilly Open Source Convention User Group Discount ---------------------------------------------------------------- News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -O'Reilly Releases Spanish-Language Titles -History of Programming Languages -Stealing the Network: A Prequel -How to Write a Basic Gtk# Program with Mono -Unix Printing Basics -Announcing the 2004 Mac OS X Innovators Contest -Hacking Mac OS X Panther -Steve Jobs Introduces Tiger at WWDC 2004 -Top Three Windows RSS Readers -Surf the Web Anonymously -Spring in Action -Inside Class Loaders: Debugging -Refactoring in Whidbey -ASP.NET Forms Security, Part 2 ================================================ Book News ================================================ Did you know you can request a free book to review for your group? Ask your group leader for more information. For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to: http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, or Syngress book you purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938. http://www.oreilly.com/ ***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico. For more details, go to: http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- New Releases ---------------------------------------------------------------- ***Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials, 2nd Edition Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 059600737X "Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials, 2nd Edition" provides an insider's look at what's coming in the widely anticipated Perl 6. It uncovers groundbreaking new developments in Parrot, and the most revolutionary change in the language itself, Apocalypse 12 on objects. The book also expands coverage of Apocalypse 5 (regular expressions) and Apocalypse 6 (subroutines). This is the only book to reveal all the ingenious developments that will make Perl 6 more powerful and easier to use. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/059600737X/index.html Chapter 10, "Parrot Intermediate Representation," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/059600737X/chapter/index.html ***Mastering Oracle SQL, 2nd Edition Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006322 Updated to cover Oracle 10g, this new edition has a stronger focus on practical, expert best practices and on Oracle-specific SQL techniques than any other book on the market. The book covers Oracle's library of built-in functions, query-writing features, regular expression support, new aggregate and analytic functions, the native XML datatype, XMLType, and more. For those who want to harness the power of Oracle SQL, this essential guide for putting Oracle SQL to work will prove invaluable. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596006322/ Chapter 7, "Set Operations," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596006322/chapter/index.html ***Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006063 "Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition" offers a thorough treatment of Mac OS X Panther, from its BSD Unix foundation to the finer points of its user interface. It familiarizes readers with the Finder and the Dock, file management, system configuration, network administration issues, and more, including a clear picture of what's new. The book also includes the most complete Unix command reference found in print--with each command and option painstakingly tested and checked against Panther. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/macpantherian/ Chapter 13, "Security Basics," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/macpantherian/chapter/index.html ***Just a Geek Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 059600768X Wil Wheaton has never been one to take the conventional path to success. Despite early stardom through his childhood role in the motion picture "Stand By Me," and growing up on television as Wesley Crusher on "Star Trek: The Next Generation," Wil left Hollywood in pursuit of happiness, purpose, and a viable means of paying the bills. In this, his newest book, Wil shares his deeply personal and difficult journey to find himself with stories that reveal an honesty and disarming humanity. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jag/ A sample chapter, titled "Alone Again, or ...," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jag/chapter/index.html ***Version Control with Subversion Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596004486 "Version Control with Subversion" introduces the powerful new versioning tool designed to be the successor to CVS. The book starts with an introduction to Subversion, followed by a guided tour of its capabilities. Later chapters cover more complex topics of branching, repository administration, and other advanced features. If you've never used version control in your software projects, this book has everything you need to get started. If you're a seasoned CVS user, it will help you make a painless leap to Subversion. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596004486/ Chapter 2, "Basic Concepts," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596004486/chapter/index.html ***3D Game-Based Filmmaking: The Art of Machinima Publisher: Paraglyph Press ISBN: 1932111859 Machinima will revolutionize the computer animation industry, and this book will serve as the industry bible for emerging filmmakers. It expertly covers the latest technology in filmmaking, the history of Machinima, the major players, and where the Machinima movement is going. The book clearly explains Machinima and covers the basics you'll need to get started including necessary hardware and software, and other production tools and installation. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1932111859/ ***Eclipse Cookbook Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596007108 "Eclipse Cookbook" demystifies Eclipse with practical recipes for more than 800 situations you may encounter--from deploying a web application automatically to reverse engineering compiled code and from renaming all references to a class across multiple packages to initializing the SWT JNI libraries. Perfect as a companion to the recently released "Eclipse" book by the same author, this latest O'Reilly cookbook will help Java programmers at all levels take advantage of the powerful and convenient Eclipse in their daily work. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/eclipseckbk/ Chapter 6, "Using Eclipse in Teams," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/eclipseckbk/chapter/index.html ***Flash Hacks Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006454 This collection of 100 Flash tips and tricks covers optimization, creating interesting effects, ActionScript programming, sound and video effects, and much more--and you don't need to be an expert to use them (although you'll certainly look like one). Ranging from practical hacks to the fun and quirky, the book covers Flash MX, Flash MX 2004, and Flash MX Professional 2004. If you're ready to explore and experiment with Flash, this is the book for you. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/flashhks/index.html Five sample hacks are available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/flashhks/chapter/index.html ***The Spam Letters Publisher: No Starch Press ISBN: 1593270321 From the man behind TheSpamLetters.com comes a collection of brilliant and entertaining correspondence with the people who send out mass junk emailings (a.k.a. spam). Compiled from the nearly 200 entries written by Jonathan Land, "The Spam Letters" taunts, prods, and parodies the faceless salespeople in your inbox, giving you a chuckle at their expense. If you hate spam, you'll love "The Spam Letters." http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270321/ ***Online Investing Hacks Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006772 For the geek who's an investor, and the investor who's a geek, we present 100 industrial-strength, bleeding-edge tips, tools, and techniques for analyzing and managing online portfolios. This book provides hacks on screening investments, executing trades, investing in mutual funds, portfolio management, financial planning, and much more. Online Investing Hacks is for people who get jazzed by cool online tools and services, and who want to have some fun while trying to strike it rich (or at least not lose their shirt). http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596006772/ Ten sample hacks, are available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596006772/chapter/index.html ================================================ Upcoming Events ================================================ ***For more events, please see: http://events.oreilly.com/ ***O'Reilly at Macworld Conference & Expo, Boston, MA--July 12-15 In addition to all of our fabulous new Mac titles, we'll feature author appearances at our booth and special promotional fun. Boston Convention & Exhibition Center, Booth #418 http://www.macworldexpo.com/live/20/ ***Chuck Toporek ("Inside .Mac" & "Mac OS X Panther in a Nutshell"), Chicago Apple Store, Chicago, IL--July 16 Chuck discusses "The Seven Essential Services of .Mac" at the Chicago Apple Store. The .Mac team from Apple headquarters will be on hand to discuss and demonstrate .Mac Internet essentials. 679 North Michigan Ave., Chicago, IL http://www.apple.com/retail/northmichiganavenue/ ***O'Reilly at Syllabus2004, San Francisco, CA--July 18-22 Come visit us at booth #304. Hyatt Regency Hotel, San Francisco, CA http://www.syllabus. ***O'Reilly Open Source Convention, Portland, OR--July 26-30 Mark your calendar to join us for the sixth annual O'Reilly Open Source Convention this summer. Fresh ideas are already sizzling on the OSCON program barbie, including keynote addresses by two of 2003's most riveting speakers, Robert Lefkowitz and Milton Ngan, as well as a trio of Dysons: Esther, Freeman, and George. Bring the family along--Portland has something for everyone. Portland Marriott Downtown, Portland, OR http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ ***Dan Gillmor ("We the Media") and Paul Graham ("Hackers & Painters"), Powell's Books, Portland OR--July 28 Powell's hosts a special double-header with two authors in town for OSCON. Powell's Technical Books, Portland, OR http://www.powells.com/calendar.html ***Tim O'Reilly Speaks at the Portland Area .NET User Group Meeting Portland, OR--July 29 "An Evening With Tim O'Reilly--Tim discusses what is on the O'Reilly Radar." The meeting starts at 6:30pm Portland Community College Auditorium, Room 104, 1626 SE Water Ave., Portland, OR http://www.padnug.org ***Alex Martelli ("Python in a Nutshell"), Powell's Books, Portland, OR--July 29 Alex stops in for an appearance at Portland's favorite bookstore. Powell's Technical Books, Portland, OR http://www.powells.com/calendar.html ================================================ Conference News ================================================ ***O'Reilly Open Source Convention User Group Discount User Group use code DSUG when you register, and you'll get 20% off the conference price. To register, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/ord_os04 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Portland Marriott Downtown Portland, OR July 26-30, 2004 http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ ================================================ News From O'Reilly & Beyond ================================================ --------------------- General News --------------------- ***O'Reilly Releases Spanish-Language Titles O'Reilly has been helping English speakers tame and control their computers for over 25 years, and we're now offering eight of our most popular titles in Spanish: four books from the Hacks series, three pocket guides, and the bestseller, "PC Annoyances." http://press.oreilly.com/pub/pr/1188 ***History of Programming Languages O'Reilly has produced a poster on the history of programming languages that plots over 50 languages on a multi-layered, color-coded timeline, based on a diagram created by Eric Levenez. Download the poster in PDF format. You can also find full-size copies at Team O'Reilly bookstores, and at O'Reilly conferences, such as this July's Open Source Convention. http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/news/languageposter_0504.html ***Stealing the Network: A Prequel Ryan Russell, one of the coauthors of "Stealing the Network: How to Own a Continent" (from Syngress), has written a "prequel" that depicts a '70s-era security hack, set at a tech company back East. If you've been curious about "Stealing the Network," this short bit of fiction provides a real sense of the concept behind the book. And be sure to respond to the talkback at the end of this tale -- we'd like to hear your theory. http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/security/2004/07/01/stealthenetwork.html --------------------- Open Source --------------------- *** How to Write a Basic Gtk# Program with Mono Gtk#, the Mono API for the GTK+ UI toolkit, is the open source alternative to Windows.Forms. This article shows how to install Mono on Windows, how Gtk# works, and how to write a simple Gtk# program. This kind of mini-project is just the sort you'll find in O'Reilly's upcoming "Mono: A Developer's Notebook." http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/excerpt/MonoTDN_chap1/index.html ***Unix Printing Basics For some reason, consumer-level printing has never been easy on any OS, including Unix. Unless you're in the know, it seems like a mess of spoolers, filters, and drivers. Fortunately, new versions of Ghostscript and foomatic make configuring printing easier. Dru Lavigne explains the basics of Unix printer installation and configuration. http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/07/08/FreeBSD_Basics.html --------------------- Mac --------------------- ***Announcing the 2004 Mac OS X Innovators Contest The second Mac OS X Innovators contest is open and ready for your entry. Here are the links and info you need to shine a light on your great idea. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/developer/2004/07/06/innovators.html ***Hacking Mac OS X Panther Rael Dornfest, coauthor of "Mac OS X Panther Hacks," has selected three hacks from the book for your sampling pleasure. The first two detail how to find anyone in your Address Book who has an Amazon Wish List, and how to build a GUI to your Unix scripts with some Perl or Python glue code; the third is just for fun. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/excerpt/pantherhacks/index.html ***Steve Jobs Introduces Tiger at WWDC 2004 So many things to talk about at WWDC. So many things that can't be said. Here's an overview of what can be disclosed, including hardware announcements and a preview of Tiger, Apple's next version of Mac OS X. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/07/01/wwdc.html --------------------- Windows --------------------- ***Top Three Windows RSS Readers Which are the best RSS readers out there? Wei-Meng Lee picks his favorites and gives you guided tours of them all. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/07/06/rss_readers.html ***Surf the Web Anonymously When you surf the Web, your life is an open book, open to anyone who wants to look. J.W. Olsen looks at two anonymous surfing programs that promise to fix the problem. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/06/29/Anonymity.html --------------------- Java --------------------- ***Spring in Action In this excerpt from "Better, Faster, Lighter Java," authors Bruce Tate and Justin Gehtland provide an example of Spring (their counter-example to the J2EE Pet Store application) in action, to show why you too will come to appreciate this simple framework as elegant and important. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/excerpt/BFLJava_chap8/index.html ***Inside Class Loaders: Debugging Andreas Schaefer continues his examination of class loading in Java with a look at what can cause problems in advance class-loading scenarios and how to patch class loaders to help debug the problem. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/06/30/classloader2.html --------------------- .NET --------------------- ***Refactoring in Whidbey Code refactoring means restructuring your code so that the original intention of the code is preserved. In this article, Wei-Meng Lee walks you through Whidbey's new support for code refactoring. http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/06/28/whidbey_refactoring.html ***ASP.NET Forms Security, Part 2 In his previous column, Jesse Liberty showed how to add web form security to your ASP.NET 2.0 application, and how to add users. In this follow-up, he demonstrates how easy it is to create and manage roles. http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/06/28/liberty_whidbey.html From jesse Sat Jul 10 11:26:46 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:26:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] HOPE spiel. . . In-Reply-To: References: <4790E1F8-D1C6-11D8-9A89-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407092020.36916.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <8E389895-D285-11D8-885A-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> I thought he was in Brasil or something... On Jul 9, 2004, at 8:26 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 9, 2004, at 8:20 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Friday 09 July 2004 12:37 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: >>> I had heard this before. . .but Captain Crunch, who gave the meeting >>> on >>> Spam, described the the hosts in his honeypot network. . . multiple >>> w32 >>> on VMWare, and OBSD for monitoring, etc. . . >> >> So what exactly are we supposed to learn from these honey-pot >> networks that we >> don't already know ? heh >> >> > > Well. . .i just asked him that. ..we literally just met him in the > street. > > He uses the honeypot to collect virus information and various attacks, > and dumps it into a python based program and creates snort signatures. > . which he pumps back to snort. > > i know, sounds pretty useless, sunny. . ;-) > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From pete Sat Jul 10 13:30:09 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:30:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F027A1.3030309@nomadlogic.org> Pastor Mac wrote: > Hi all-- > > It was finally cool to (flesh)meet some of you Monday at the Apple > Store. It was events like that and stuff I'm reading about on the > list that make me wish I was making a 100k a year and living in > Manhattan (I suspect you almost need that much to live in > Manhattan)...but right now I'd be happy with the 100k... > > Anyhew, is there an installfest coming up soon? I've a couple of > beige Power Mac clones I'd like to try NetBSD on. Thanks to Kevin > Reiter, I'll be getting FreeBSD going on a x86 box hopefully next > week. Like I said in a previous post, I'm trying hard not to sound > overly dorky and I really do appreciate the welcome you all have given > to this newbie. > > Also wik: I know I live in Sussex which might be off the edge of the > universe for some but I'd be happy to host some form of festive > gathering in the "country" sometime this summer. I live literally > next to the fire house so safety can generally be assured...we have an > outdoor grill and we live at a farmside garden so there's a bit of > space. Unfortunately I'm not wireless yet (I do have 1.5 mip DSL) so > if you bring machines we'll have to have a wired switch. If there's > interest in a party/installfest up here, email me and let's put > something together. > this sounds pertty interesting. if we can get a good group of people to go it should be pretty fun. the downside to for me is time. so maybe i'm a tennative yes, is that non-commital enough ;) -p From ike Tue Jul 13 01:24:41 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:24:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] switch advice? Message-ID: Hi all, Before, Pete gave me some great advice about gigabit soho swtiches, but I've got a new question below, On May 19, 2004, at 7:54 AM, pete wright wrote: >> Was just wondering- am looking again at gigabit switches, and wanted >> to ask you again via email what you and Jesse were talking about, re. >> the 1mb packet thingie to look for in higher-end switches... > > yea no problem. there are basicly two types of gig-e switches out > there. the cheaper versions use a MTU of 1500, which is the same MTU > as normal 100/10 BaseT via cat5. more expensive switches can use a > 1500 MTU or what are called "Fat Packets." This is an MTU of 9600. > the benefit of larger MTU's is that you can send much more data in a > single packet when compared to normal 1500 MTU packets. this will > speed up communication, while also reducing the overhead on the NIC > and CPU. an MTU is the Maximum Transfer Unit, i think...i forget what > the acronym stands for. but you get the idea. last time i checked, > 3Com was making these switches at a pretty reasonable price. I use > the el-cheapo linksys gig-e switches at work, and it's not too bad... So I'm looking to buy some network switches, and am totally stumped by what's available out there. (this totally isn't my forte'). Basically, I've been looking at 12 and 24 port gigabit rackmount switches, but am really not going to be taking serious advantage of managed switches, and am pretty darned confused by the price scales- Some of them are in the $500 range on the low end, but what seems to me to be the same specs, can go over $3k, (some 12/16 port unmanaged gigabit swtiches going for 3 times other 24 port switches?) Where's the line for quality really at? Gah! Does anyone have any good experiences with either end of the spectrum? I'd be looking to buy 4 of them, and would really rather they be cheap to replace due to past experiences, though of course everyone wants something solid for nothing... :) Thanks for any info or even just urls! Rocket- .ike From jesse Tue Jul 13 02:56:03 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:56:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] switch advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Layer 2 aka 'dumb switch' buyer's guide: Reasonably good feature: dual power supplies Great feature: jumbo frames Reasonably good and Great are interchangable depending on your needs. If I was an old bastard I would say your mileage may vary or something cute like that. But it's not a car. Netgear is the best high-end low-end stuff there is I think. Go with the GS524T, I did and now I live in my own home and even have time to play tennis with the kids and do a little gardening. When I'm feeling guilty I call up at work and ask, "How's the network?"... wait that was when i had a job.... uh... anyway... ------------------------------------------- Performance (64 byte packets) Bandwidth: 48 Gbps (non-blocking) Forward rate (1000 Mbps port): 1,480,000 packet per sec Forward rate (100 Mbps port): 148,000 packet per sec Forward rate (10 Mbps port): 14,800 packet per sec Latency (1000 to 1000 Mbps): 30 ?s max <-- not so impressive MAC addresses: 8,000 <-- and how many ports? Standards Compliance IEEE 802.3i 10BASE-T Ethernet IEEE 802.3u 100BASE-TX Fast Ethernet IEEE 802.3ab 1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet IEEE 802.3x Flow Control -------------------------------------------- ... I'm assuming there's no jumbo frame situation here, but I wouldn't worry about it. Best part is there is no management, and therefore no security risk. Dumb switches rule! The only reason to get anything with any more functionality than this one is if you want to make VLAN's. If you want to go home and have people like you, then don't make VLAN's. If you want a great network, then be my guest. Switches are fun to put in. There's no downtime at all. On Jul 13, 2004, at 1:24 AM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi all, > > Before, Pete gave me some great advice about gigabit soho swtiches, > but I've got a new question below, > > On May 19, 2004, at 7:54 AM, pete wright wrote: > >>> Was just wondering- am looking again at gigabit switches, and wanted >>> to ask you again via email what you and Jesse were talking about, >>> re. the 1mb packet thingie to look for in higher-end switches... >> >> yea no problem. there are basicly two types of gig-e switches out >> there. the cheaper versions use a MTU of 1500, which is the same MTU >> as normal 100/10 BaseT via cat5. more expensive switches can use a >> 1500 MTU or what are called "Fat Packets." This is an MTU of 9600. >> the benefit of larger MTU's is that you can send much more data in a >> single packet when compared to normal 1500 MTU packets. this will >> speed up communication, while also reducing the overhead on the NIC >> and CPU. an MTU is the Maximum Transfer Unit, i think...i forget >> what the acronym stands for. but you get the idea. last time i >> checked, 3Com was making these switches at a pretty reasonable price. >> I use the el-cheapo linksys gig-e switches at work, and it's not too >> bad... > > > So I'm looking to buy some network switches, and am totally stumped by > what's available out there. (this totally isn't my forte'). > > Basically, I've been looking at 12 and 24 port gigabit rackmount > switches, but am really not going to be taking serious advantage of > managed switches, and am pretty darned confused by the price scales- > Some of them are in the $500 range on the low end, but what seems to > me to be the same specs, can go over $3k, (some 12/16 port unmanaged > gigabit swtiches going for 3 times other 24 port switches?) Where's > the line for quality really at? > > Gah! Does anyone have any good experiences with either end of the > spectrum? I'd be looking to buy 4 of them, and would really rather > they be cheap to replace due to past experiences, though of course > everyone wants something solid for nothing... :) > > Thanks for any info or even just urls! > > Rocket- > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From ike Tue Jul 13 08:15:16 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:15:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] switch advice? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CE19F39-D4C6-11D8-80CB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On Jul 13, 2004, at 2:56 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > Layer 2 aka 'dumb switch' buyer's guide: Dude, this rocks- thanks! Rocket- .ike From pastormac Tue Jul 13 20:52:27 2004 From: pastormac (Pastor Mac) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:52:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] InstallFest? In-Reply-To: <40F027A1.3030309@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <138C11ED-D530-11D8-9D61-00306577F390@earthlink.net> On Saturday, July 10, 2004, at 01:30 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > this sounds pertty interesting. if we can get a good group of people > to go it should be pretty fun. the downside to for me is time. so > maybe i'm a tennative yes, is that non-commital enough ;) OK, it's my birthday this Friday...I'll be happy to fire up a grill Saturday. I live right in Sussex on the main drag two blocks from the downtown square. I know some don't have wheels but if you want to take the train to Port Jervis, I'll swing by and pick you up. Just email me. Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From hanulec Wed Jul 14 01:18:31 2004 From: hanulec (Michael Hanulec) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] switch advice? In-Reply-To: <4CE19F39-D4C6-11D8-80CB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <4CE19F39-D4C6-11D8-80CB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: one thing to think about when buying a switch is to determine if you need a managed switch or not. if i have the money i always choose to buy a managed switch as they are SO helpful when trying to debug network errors. debugging a slowly dying nic card is so easy with a managed switch. my favorite, high-end GigE switch is the Nortel BayStack 5510 which comes in 24 and 48 port densities and can 'stack' to 384 ports. if you don't have a lot of cash but want a managed switch look at the 1U ProCurve options from HP. -- hanulec at hanulec.com cell: 858.518.2647 && 516.410.4478 https://secure.hanulec.com EFnet irc && aol im: hanulec On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > On Jul 13, 2004, at 2:56 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > > Layer 2 aka 'dumb switch' buyer's guide: > > Dude, this rocks- thanks! > > Rocket- > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > From fifi Wed Jul 14 11:44:27 2004 From: fifi (Mike Sawicki) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:44:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] switch advice? In-Reply-To: References: <4CE19F39-D4C6-11D8-80CB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20040714154427.GR87092@HAX.ORG> On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 01:18:31AM -0400, Michael Hanulec wrote: > > one thing to think about when buying a switch is to determine if you need > a managed switch or not. if i have the money i always choose to buy a > managed switch as they are SO helpful when trying to debug network errors. > debugging a slowly dying nic card is so easy with a managed switch. my > favorite, high-end GigE switch is the Nortel BayStack 5510 which comes in > 24 and 48 port densities and can 'stack' to 384 ports. if you don't have > a lot of cash but want a managed switch look at the 1U ProCurve options > from HP. > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > > > On Jul 13, 2004, at 2:56 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > > > > Layer 2 aka 'dumb switch' buyer's guide: > > > > Dude, this rocks- thanks! > > Unless money is a real issue I'd always recommend a managed switch. Being able to trace network utilization to the edge is a must for me in every network I operate.. even in my home. I tend to use Cisco's products as they seem to have figured out how to build devices that turn on and keep working. I'm sure some of you would disagree, but I'm speaking from personal experience. The 2950 line has several sub $1k models available. If you want ge ports you'll have to shell out a little more... like $1200. Cisco sells switches with a standard or enhanced image. You save money if you're willing to accept a shortage of advanced features. The latest generation doesn't complain if you load an enhanced image on a standard-purchased chassis though .. Shhh.. ;) Mike Sawicki fifi at HAX.ORG From george Thu Jul 15 16:59:22 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:59:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? Message-ID: Out of curiosity. . .has anyone else noticed that TWC is dropping connections to routers with multiple hosts behind it. . ?? Going to try pf/OBSD for a small client, to see if they're using ISN's to count the hosts. . .as OBSD takes care of that. . . g From pete Thu Jul 15 18:09:43 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:09:43 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F700A7.1080300@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > Out of curiosity. . .has anyone else noticed that TWC is dropping > connections to routers with multiple hosts behind it. . ?? > no i have not > Going to try pf/OBSD for a small client, to see if they're using ISN's > to count the hosts. . .as OBSD takes care of that. . . > but i am running OBSD/pf so that may be why. my house has about 8 different machines behind it as well... -p From ike Thu Jul 15 17:25:12 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:25:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <40F700A7.1080300@nomadlogic.org> References: <40F700A7.1080300@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <74993951-D6A5-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:09 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> Going to try pf/OBSD for a small client, to see if they're using >> ISN's to count the hosts. . .as OBSD takes care of that. . . >> > but i am running OBSD/pf so that may be why. my house has about 8 > different machines behind it as well... As that is perhaps the last email to this list from pete... *glug* *glug* *glug* :) .ike From jfreeman Thu Jul 15 17:26:14 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:26:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] first post Message-ID: hi all, We've just got our first BSD box... it's an ION computing box with about 800GB running freeBSD... I have ok (5 on a scale of 10) linux-fu and I am writing this on TiBook running OSX/Darwin. This box is intended to be our AMANDA backup server to drive our spectralogic 20 slot tape storage library. We are running into a couple of problems. First, we could not get dhclient to work. So we gave up on that and i ran ifconfig to give the machine an ip address, netmask, ran route to give it a gateway address and edited /etc/resolv.conf and /etc/hosts Everything should work, and for the most part, things DO work.. except it STILL can't resolve hostnames. Also, I noticed that when I rebooted the box, it seemed to have lost the IP settings in ifconfig. Any advice welcome. Thanks! J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Computer Services New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From pete Thu Jul 15 18:26:54 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:26:54 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Gig-E NIC Message-ID: <40F704AE.6050203@nomadlogic.org> Hey all, Any thoughts on good Gig-E adapters for FreeBSD. I'm running 4.x, and have always had good luck with the Intel NIC's. Is anyone running Gig-E on different NIC's out there? The reason I ask is I think I had an onboard adapter go down and i think I may replace it with a PCI card. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Thu Jul 15 18:27:55 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:27:55 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <74993951-D6A5-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40F700A7.1080300@nomadlogic.org> <74993951-D6A5-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40F704EB.1020908@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:09 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >>> Going to try pf/OBSD for a small client, to see if they're using >>> ISN's to count the hosts. . .as OBSD takes care of that. . . >>> >> but i am running OBSD/pf so that may be why. my house has about 8 >> different machines behind it as well... > > > As that is perhaps the last email to this list from pete... *glug* > *glug* *glug* > well, I forgot the mention that I do pay a client access license for each machine on my network...yea that's the ticket.... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jfreeman Thu Jul 15 17:28:15 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:28:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] one more question Message-ID: what does one use for package management on this thing? we need sudo, bash, webmin... blah blah blah -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Computer Services New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From george Thu Jul 15 17:31:52 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:31:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] one more question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62FF99AC-D6A6-11D8-A2BE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 15, 2004, at 5:28 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > what does one use for package management on this thing? we need sudo, > bash, > webmin... blah blah blah > -- the two ways I use are the ports collection and sysinstall alot of people are fans of pkg_add -r, but someone else can talk about that. Check to see if you have ports in /usr/ports. This is the feature that every other OS slobbers over... If it didn't install with the initial install, download the ports from the relevant ftp site. cd to the directory of the port you want to install, and type make install and make clean if you want. Sysinstall is the cutely gui located in /stand. g From ike Thu Jul 15 17:33:25 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:33:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Gig-E NIC In-Reply-To: <40F704AE.6050203@nomadlogic.org> References: <40F704AE.6050203@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <9AC00332-D6A6-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Pete, On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:26 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Hey all, > Any thoughts on good Gig-E adapters for FreeBSD. I'm running 4.x, > and have always had good luck with the Intel NIC's. Is anyone running > Gig-E on different NIC's out there? The reason I ask is I think I had > an onboard adapter go down and i think I may replace it with a PCI > card. Here's a shout out on the SUOER cheap-o side of the spectrum, I found these gigabit cards for $13, Here's where I found them: http://www.opsinas.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=999 Encore 32-Bit Gigabit Ethernet PCI Adpater Card Pricewatch may have more options... It's a RealTek chipset, I believe- FreeBSD 5.x current supports it I know personally, and OpenBSD natively supports it with the current distro, (not 3.5). Not sure if you want a quality card or just a quick replacement- but if you want it fast, I happen to have an extra card and you could pick it up from me on your way home if you wanted to try one out... Rocket- .ike From pete Thu Jul 15 18:34:03 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:34:03 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] first post In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F7065B.7080502@nomadlogic.org> Joshua S. Freeman wrote: >hi all, > >We've just got our first BSD box... it's an ION computing box with about >800GB running freeBSD... > > cool welcome to the cult...erm i mean club ;) >I have ok (5 on a scale of 10) linux-fu and I am writing this on TiBook >running OSX/Darwin. > >This box is intended to be our AMANDA backup server to drive our >spectralogic 20 slot tape storage library. > > > if possible, you may want to check out Bacula (www.bacula.org). I've found it to be much easier to run and config that Amanda, and shoot there are even some folks in the BUG that can help you getting bacula to run... >We are running into a couple of problems. > >First, we could not get dhclient to work. > > > hmm, that's odd. from a shell you should be able to run: $ sudo dhclient my_nic_dev do you get any errors in the logs? >So we gave up on that and i ran ifconfig to give the machine an ip address, >netmask, ran route to give it a gateway address and edited /etc/resolv.conf >and /etc/hosts > > to manually set an ethernet address you set that in /etc/rc.conf. I would highly suggest you read man (5) rc.conf. BSD man pages do in fact rock. >Everything should work, and for the most part, things DO work.. except it >STILL can't resolve hostnames. > >Also, I noticed that when I rebooted the box, it seemed to have lost the IP >settings in ifconfig. > > setting rc.conf up properlly will prolly address these problems. >Any advice welcome. > > > if you have the time you can also swing by #nycbug on irc.freenode.net. There are usually a couple lurkers there that will be willing to help out if they have time. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Thu Jul 15 18:37:27 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:37:27 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] one more question In-Reply-To: <62FF99AC-D6A6-11D8-A2BE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <62FF99AC-D6A6-11D8-A2BE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40F70727.1080900@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 5:28 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > >> what does one use for package management on this thing? we need >> sudo, bash, >> webmin... blah blah blah >> -- > > > the two ways I use are the ports collection and sysinstall > > alot of people are fans of pkg_add -r, but someone else can talk about > that. > > Check to see if you have ports in /usr/ports. This is the feature > that every other OS slobbers over... > > If it didn't install with the initial install, download the ports from > the relevant ftp site. > > cd to the directory of the port you want to install, and type make > install and make clean if you want. > > Sysinstall is the cutely gui located in /stand. > i love pkg_add -r my self, it's one thing I've found helpfull, especially coming from working on alot of debian machines. You can also goto www.freshports.org. You can search for the package you want there and then either install it from ports, or do a pkg_add -r my_pkg hth -p > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jfreeman Thu Jul 15 17:47:47 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:47:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ok.. it seems to be working Message-ID: I didn't change anything but at least the machine seems to be resolving names now. I still have questions about package management though!... and i'd love to hear from anyone who is using freebsd for amanda ! Cheers, J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Computer Services New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From pete Thu Jul 15 18:55:43 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:55:43 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ok.. it seems to be working In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F70B6F.9000902@nomadlogic.org> Joshua S. Freeman wrote: >I didn't change anything but at least the machine seems to be resolving >names now. > >I still have questions about package management though!... and i'd love to >hear from anyone who is using freebsd for amanda ! > > > what questions do you have? -p >Cheers, > >J. > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Thu Jul 15 18:57:56 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:57:56 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Gig-E NIC In-Reply-To: <9AC00332-D6A6-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40F704AE.6050203@nomadlogic.org> <9AC00332-D6A6-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40F70BF4.1020508@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Pete, > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:26 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Hey all, >> Any thoughts on good Gig-E adapters for FreeBSD. I'm running 4.x, >> and have always had good luck with the Intel NIC's. Is anyone >> running Gig-E on different NIC's out there? The reason I ask is I >> think I had an onboard adapter go down and i think I may replace it >> with a PCI card. > > > Here's a shout out on the SUOER cheap-o side of the spectrum, > I found these gigabit cards for $13, Here's where I found them: > > http://www.opsinas.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=999 > > Encore 32-Bit Gigabit Ethernet PCI Adpater Card > > Pricewatch may have more options... > It's a RealTek chipset, I believe- FreeBSD 5.x current supports it I > know personally, and OpenBSD natively supports it with the current > distro, (not 3.5). > > Not sure if you want a quality card or just a quick replacement- but > if you want it fast, I happen to have an extra card and you could pick > it up from me on your way home if you wanted to try one out... > cool thanks ike, if things don't work out for me tonight i might take you up on that offer. -p > Rocket- > .ike > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From klimenta Thu Jul 15 18:02:05 2004 From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:02:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] first post In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F6FEDD.2030504@futurebit.com> Joshua S. Freeman wrote: >Also, I noticed that when I rebooted the box, it seemed to have lost the IP >settings in ifconfig. > > Try this in /etc/rc.conf put the following ifconfig_fxp0="DHCP" ifconfig_fxp0="UP" change fxp0 to match your NIC. It might be fxp0 or dc0 or eth0. Run # dmesg | grep net and you'll figure out. From sunny-ml Thu Jul 15 18:31:44 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:31:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Thursday 15 July 2004 04:59 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > Out of curiosity. . .has anyone else noticed that TWC is dropping > connections to routers with multiple hosts behind it. . ?? nope, never had them drop anything Verizon on the other hand ..... >:) Sunny Dubey From klimenta Thu Jul 15 18:42:41 2004 From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:42:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> Sunny Dubey wrote: >nope, never had them drop anything > >Verizon on the other hand ..... >:) > > I am using Verizon DSL for a month using a FreeBSD server as a router/gateway... They change my IP every 2-3 hours. Before that (before I moved) I used Cablevision cable. I was runing a DNS/bind server on the same box, because I had "almost static IP" :). Changed twice in a year. Now I am planning to switch to static IP using Verizon for 79.99$. Anybody in northern NJ (Hackensack area) to have any experience with other DSL/cable providers for static IP? 10x From pete Thu Jul 15 19:46:09 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:46:09 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> Message-ID: <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> Kliment Andreev wrote: > Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> nope, never had them drop anything >> >> Verizon on the other hand ..... >:) >> >> > > I am using Verizon DSL for a month using a FreeBSD server as a > router/gateway... They change my IP every 2-3 hours. Before that > (before I moved) I used Cablevision cable. I was runing a DNS/bind > server on the same box, because I had "almost static IP" :). Changed > twice in a year. Now I am planning to switch to static IP using > Verizon for 79.99$. Anybody in northern NJ (Hackensack area) to have > any experience with other DSL/cable providers for static IP? > i've seen some pretty good things that speakeasy offers. they have "sysadmin" and "gamer" packages avail, have several static IP's and decent upstream and downstream bitrates. i've never used them myself, but when i was looking for a providor they seemed pretty interesting.... -pete > 10x > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Peter Wright Systems Administrator Click3X NYC pwright at click3x.com 212.627.1900 From ike Thu Jul 15 18:51:38 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:51:38 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> Message-ID: <87E5167A-D6B1-11D8-94E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:42 PM, Kliment Andreev wrote: > Anybody in northern NJ (Hackensack area) to have any experience with > other DSL/cable providers for static IP? Cloud9? http://cloud9.net Rocket- .ike From marco Thu Jul 15 18:56:10 2004 From: marco (marco at metm.org) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:56:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040715225609.GB15507@metm.org> On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 06:46:09PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote: > i've seen some pretty good things that speakeasy offers. they have > "sysadmin" and "gamer" packages avail, have several static IP's and > decent upstream and downstream bitrates. i've never used them myself, > but when i was looking for a providor they seemed pretty interesting.... > I've had speakeasy for about 2yrs. No BS. Often get an intelligent person on the phone after 2 or 3 rings. Also look at the business packages. -- Marco From krook Thu Jul 15 18:56:54 2004 From: krook (Daniel Krook) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:56:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: > i've seen some pretty good things that speakeasy offers. I've actually been emailing back and forth with a guy at Speakeasy this week and will probably place an order with them tomorrow (Optimum Online blocks ports in Stamford, CT, where I'm moving next week): OSDN has a promo with them (static IPs, no blocked ports, good speeds, 7-10 day install) that I think I'm going to get in on: http://www.speakeasy.net/promos/osdn/ I'll report back on the service (and the OpenBSD on VirtualPC...) once I get settled in the new apt. if anyone's curious how it is. Daniel Krook, Application Developer WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com 1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604 Personal: http://info.krook.org/ Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897 From klimenta Thu Jul 15 18:58:33 2004 From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:58:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40F70C19.1000703@futurebit.com> Thanks pete, thanks .ike. I am already browsing these two sites. BTW, 2 static IP offer from easyspeak.net for 60$ looks more than good... From bob Thu Jul 15 19:06:48 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:06:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? In-Reply-To: <20040715225609.GB15507@metm.org> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <40F71741.1060306@nomadlogic.org> <20040715225609.GB15507@metm.org> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 6:56 PM, marco at metm.org wrote: > On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 06:46:09PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote: >> i've seen some pretty good things that speakeasy offers. they have >> "sysadmin" and "gamer" packages avail, have several static IP's and >> decent upstream and downstream bitrates. i've never used them myself, >> but when i was looking for a providor they seemed pretty >> interesting.... >> > I've had speakeasy for about 2yrs. No BS. Often get an intelligent > person on the phone after 2 or 3 rings. Also look at the business > packages. I've had speakeasy 1.1mbit SDSL for about 3-4 years in two different apartments. You'll often get an email well in advance of any maintenance they have planned that may affect your service. This doesn't happen too often, usually very late at night (i.e. you should be drunk or sleeping), and don't last very long. It's not the cheapest service on the market.. but it works. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040715/9997bd4e/attachment.bin From tux Thu Jul 15 19:26:30 2004 From: tux (Kevin Reiter) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:26:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner cable? References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> Message-ID: <006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> > Anybody in northern NJ (Hackensack area) to have any experience with > other DSL/cable providers for static IP? Anyone ever try Covad? They have some pretty good deals for SDSL and T-1's. I'm actually getting my 384 fractional installed in about 2 weeks. (5 static IP's, blah blah blah...) I've had OptOnline for the past 2 years, and even though they don't allow you to, I've been running FTP, mail, and www and haven't been nailed yet. My IP hasn't changed once since I came online with it, but that could just be me *shrug* ...just my .02 -Kev From dlavigne6 Thu Jul 15 19:41:13 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] POP3 server recommendations In-Reply-To: <006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> Message-ID: <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> I'm building a POP3 server for a client and am looking for suggestions for the most secure (he-he) app available. According to the ports descriptions, that brings me down to: akpop3d dovecot missey The client isn't interested in IMAP but wants POP3. Anyone have experience with any of these and reasons to recommend one over the other? Dru From tux Thu Jul 15 20:11:42 2004 From: tux (Kevin Reiter) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:11:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] POP3 server recommendations References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org><40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com><006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <000901c46ac9$793ae490$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> > I'm building a POP3 server for a client and am looking for suggestions for > the most secure (he-he) app available. According to the ports > descriptions, that brings me down to: > > akpop3d > dovecot > missey > > The client isn't interested in IMAP but wants POP3. Anyone have experience > with any of these and reasons to recommend one over the other? How about qmail? I seem to remember hearing that it was the most "secure" MTA around, but I'm no mail guru, so I can't give supporting arguments on that. I use qmail with IMAP and POP3 with assorted addins myself and I much prefer it to postfix or any of the others. Anyone else who knows more than me (which is about everyone :) want to chime in? From jromero Thu Jul 15 16:08:59 2004 From: jromero (jromero at romero3000.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:08:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner Cable?? Message-ID: <1089922111.4319.3.camel@linux.site> Speakeasy DSL 6mbps/768k is $99 a month& 1.5mbps/768k is $79. Comes with 4 static IPs. If anybody is interested in ordering let me know. I'm a reseller ;) From kit Thu Jul 15 20:03:59 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:03:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Speakeasy DSL Message-ID: I've had Speakeasy service for a little over a year, I think. (Can't remember if I switched from XO before I moved or not.) 1.5/768 ADSL w/10 static IPs for about $120/month. Best service I've gotten from a DSL provider, & I've worked with a lot of 'em. Prices are great for what you get. They specifically allow you to run servers. On one occasion, tech support even helped me fix my friend's NetBSD box. The guy in the call center knew NetBSD! It's an ISP run by geeks for geeks, basically. I love 'em. -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From george Thu Jul 15 20:16:34 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:16:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner Cable?? In-Reply-To: <1089922111.4319.3.camel@linux.site> References: <1089922111.4319.3.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <6569A7BB-D6BD-11D8-A2BE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 15, 2004, at 4:08 PM, jromero at romero3000.com wrote: > > Speakeasy DSL 6mbps/768k is $99 a month& 1.5mbps/768k is $79. Comes > with > 4 static IPs. If anybody is interested in ordering let me know. I'm a > reseller ;) > I have had DSL for many years like many others at home. . . First there was IBS from NJ. . .5 static ips, sdsl 384k. . .but never used more than one ip, since i was working all the time (at work) and went through a period in the dotcom era when i didn't even have an operational computer at home. . .I doubt I'm unique for that time. . .I lived at work, and sometimes slept at home. My firm at the time had brought IBS public. . . IBS sold its dialup accounts to Earthlink, and dropped its dsl. . .So I attempted to do Earthlink. I think that's around 2000. Verizon told Earthlink I'm too far from the co, which is ironic, since in my younger days I could probably hit the co with a rock. Next day I got a dsl sales call from Verizon. . .and have been a miserable adsl basic package customer ever since. For the first few years, my line was down at least 3 weeks each year. Infamously bad copper in my neighborhood. No major problems for the past year. . .but now I also have the local foreman's cell phone number. I may look at Cyberonic. . .which does 1.6 down and 768k up with a static ip for $39 a mo. . .$10 more I think for 5 more static ips. Bad service on the phone, I've heard, but generally no problems. Then again, I may stick to my mindnumming Verizon as well. g From pete Thu Jul 15 21:24:17 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:24:17 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] POP3 server recommendations In-Reply-To: <000901c46ac9$793ae490$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org><40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com><006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> <000901c46ac9$793ae490$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> Message-ID: <40F72E41.6050001@nomadlogic.org> Kevin Reiter wrote: >>I'm building a POP3 server for a client and am looking for suggestions for >>the most secure (he-he) app available. According to the ports >>descriptions, that brings me down to: >> >>akpop3d >>dovecot >>missey >> >>The client isn't interested in IMAP but wants POP3. Anyone have experience >>with any of these and reasons to recommend one over the other? >> >> > >How about qmail? I seem to remember hearing that it was the most "secure" >MTA around, but I'm no mail guru, so I can't give supporting arguments on >that. I use qmail with IMAP and POP3 with assorted addins myself and I much >prefer it to postfix or any of the others. > > while qmail is a pretty secure MTA, it is infact that: a Mail Transfer Agent. It does not handle POP or IMAP, it only moves the mail from machine to machine. having said that I have not had any experience with any of the above mentioned POP servers...i have used qpopper on debian. but then i got smart and started using IMAP ;^) -p -- Peter Wright Systems Administrator Click3X NYC pwright at click3x.com 212.627.1900 From mlists Thu Jul 15 20:33:21 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:33:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] POP3 server recommendations In-Reply-To: <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> References: <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <20040716003321.GY2411@bizintegrators.com> On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 07:41:13PM -0400, Dru wrote: > > I'm building a POP3 server for a client and am looking for suggestions for > the most secure (he-he) app available. According to the ports > descriptions, that brings me down to: > > akpop3d > dovecot > missey > > The client isn't interested in IMAP but wants POP3. Anyone have experience > with any of these and reasons to recommend one over the other? > popa3d from Solar Designer. From krook Thu Jul 15 22:27:48 2004 From: krook (Daniel Krook) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:27:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner Cable?? In-Reply-To: <6569A7BB-D6BD-11D8-A2BE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: > Verizon told > Earthlink I'm too far from the co, which is ironic, since in my younger > days I could probably hit the co with a rock. You must have lived near 53rd and 9th in Manhattan too :) There were many times (mostly around the 3 month waiting mark and the Bell Atlantic / Verizon strike of the time) that I more than considered throwing something at that building. And Time Warner cable started offering next-day installation in my building the day after I finally got my crappy DSL. Daniel Krook, Application Developer WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com 1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604 Personal: http://info.krook.org/ Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897 From okan Thu Jul 15 23:02:07 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] POP3 server recommendations In-Reply-To: <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> References: <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <20040716030207.GA47779@yinaska.pair.com> On Thu 2004.07.15 at 19:41 -0400, Dru wrote: > I'm building a POP3 server for a client and am looking for suggestions for > the most secure (he-he) app available. According to the ports > descriptions, that brings me down to: > > akpop3d > dovecot > missey > > The client isn't interested in IMAP but wants POP3. Anyone have experience > with any of these and reasons to recommend one over the other? you didn't mention your OS. if you use OpenBSD, you have one in the base, based of of solar designs popa3d (as someone else mentioned). i'd recommend that on any OS. -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From george Fri Jul 16 12:55:42 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:55:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] TWC issue Message-ID: Ends up just cloning the mac address of a desktop on the router worked. . . Fortunately, if they start doing ISN checking, I have a pf OBSD box going in next week. .. g From george Fri Jul 16 13:13:09 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:13:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] new NYCBUG www site. . . Message-ID: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> I want to encourage all to provide feedback on the new site. . . We want to roll this out very soon. .. it's been delayed to long. . . What a developer can do is certainly a big step up from my abilities with OOo and vi. . . Let's use talk as a forum for input on the site. g From jw_nyc Fri Jul 16 16:54:20 2004 From: jw_nyc (Jonathan White) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Finding Vendors Message-ID: <20040716205420.98682.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> Don't know if this is the right place to ask but, how would I go about finding a vendor to setup and maintain a network for me? I work in a small office, about 25 people. We have a peer network now with all windows workstations + 1 AIX workstation that runs a vertical app on it. using FacetWIN we get terminal emulation and are able to use the AIX box as shared hard drive. I'd like to set up a proper domain server, bring our externally hosted pop mail in house and use (maybe) IMAP with web mail have a hosted address book and etc. also like to ad a fax server. how do I go about finding someone to do the work, and I bet dollars to donuts I get responses to this for that. But then how do I know they know what the are doing? I am an applications programmer, I've worked in UNIX (Solaris) before but am not systems oriented so don't know much about that side of things nor do I have the time right now. thanks jw __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From george Fri Jul 16 19:28:56 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:28:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On Jul 16, 2004, at 1:13 PM, G. Rosamond wrote: > I want to encourage all to provide feedback on the new site. . . > > We want to roll this out very soon. .. it's been delayed to long. . . > > What a developer can do is certainly a big step up from my abilities > with OOo and vi. . . > > Let's use talk as a forum for input on the site. Okay, okay.. . would a url help? dev.nycbug.org g From bob Fri Jul 16 19:54:42 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:54:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 16, 2004, at 7:28 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 16, 2004, at 1:13 PM, G. Rosamond wrote: > >> I want to encourage all to provide feedback on the new site. . . >> >> We want to roll this out very soon. .. it's been delayed to long. . . >> >> What a developer can do is certainly a big step up from my abilities >> with OOo and vi. . . >> >> Let's use talk as a forum for input on the site. > > Okay, okay.. . > > would a url help? > > dev.nycbug.org Looks much better! Is there a real good reason to limit the width of the site? Seems like a waste when you're going to the site to read information, not to look at the pretty "shadows" on the edges. News/Events/etc. should be syndicated as RSS or ATOM (I don't care, NetNewsWire does both). The style sheet could use a little work (as advertised). The "your ip" text at the bottom isn't really readable, and the headings could use some more vertical space between the lines of text.. it renders a bit different in Mozilla than it does in Safari (well, the 2.0 beta I'm using). In Mozilla, the header in the top-right bar is spaced fine, in Safari the two lines of text are right on top of each other. In both, the news header is really squished. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040716/09bdc43c/attachment.bin From george Fri Jul 16 20:00:01 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:00:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 16, 2004, at 7:54 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> dev.nycbug.org > > Looks much better! > > Is there a real good reason to limit the width of the site? Seems > like a waste when you're going to the site to read information, not to > look at the pretty "shadows" on the edges. > > News/Events/etc. should be syndicated as RSS or ATOM (I don't care, > NetNewsWire does both). > Great point. And we should add RSS feeds for Daemon News and Undeadly. . . > The style sheet could use a little work (as advertised). The "your > ip" text at the bottom isn't really readable, and the headings could > use some more vertical space between the lines of text.. it renders a > bit different in Mozilla than it does in Safari (well, the 2.0 beta > I'm using). In Mozilla, the header in the top-right bar is spaced > fine, in Safari the two lines of text are right on top of each other. > In both, the news header is really squished. Everyone should be checking it out in multiple browsers. . .but at the end of the day, lynx is it. g From marco Fri Jul 16 20:50:14 2004 From: marco (marco at metm.org) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:50:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Swealter-fest : Aug 6th 2004! Message-ID: <20040717005013.GB21109@metm.org> We said we were going to reschedule the installfest at my place, cause that week with cacerts and hope was totally overcrowed, but as I'm pretty busy 'till the end of the month, I propose: Friday August 6th, an installfest at my place in brklyn. Lets make all those jerks with real vacation plans jealous! Interesting problems and strange hardware welcome. Some beers will be available, but more are absolutely welcome. So who's in? -- Marco From sunny-ml Fri Jul 16 21:09:50 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:09:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Friday 16 July 2004 08:00 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > Everyone should be checking it out in multiple browsers. . .but at the > end of the day, lynx is it. > this site works with lynx!! 2 thumbs up! way up! Sunny Dubey From george Sat Jul 17 01:13:12 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:13:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> On Fri, Jul 16, 2004 at 09:09:50PM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote: >On Friday 16 July 2004 08:00 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> Everyone should be checking it out in multiple browsers. . .but at the >> end of the day, lynx is it. >> > >this site works with lynx!! 2 thumbs up! way up! yeah, that's impressive considering all the nice graphics. but w3m is really much better than lynx... I really have to agree with Bob I's comment about fixed width, all dimensions should be relative (cf css em, ex or %), not based on px. // George -- George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7 9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631 From marco Sat Jul 17 01:39:41 2004 From: marco (marco at metm.org) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:39:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> Message-ID: <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> On Sat, Jul 17, 2004 at 01:13:12AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: > I really have to agree with Bob I's comment about fixed width, all > dimensions should be relative (cf css em, ex or %), not based on px. > Very, very few dimensions should be relative. The only dimension which works across all the broken versions of IE is px. I for one hate reading sites where the lines are extremely long, there have been many studies which show that long lines are much harder to read. Implementing true columns (like a newpaper) is difficult. There has to be some tweaking of the style sheets to make everything look right, but all in all the design of the new site looks good. -- Marco From marco Sat Jul 17 01:45:35 2004 From: marco (Marco Scoffier) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:45:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> Message-ID: <20040717054534.GB24523@metm.org> On Sat, Jul 17, 2004 at 01:39:41AM -0400, marco at metm.org wrote: > There has to be some tweaking of the style sheets to make everything > look right, but all in all the design of the new site looks good. I'd put some padding around the paragraphs that you read on the right. Giving them alittle more white space would make them much more easy to read. -- Marco From lists Sat Jul 17 10:15:13 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:15:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <40F93471.6020203@genoverly.net> on 20040716 7:54 PM Bob Ippolito had written... First, thanks for jumping on this thread so quickly! It is important to get feedback from the community before this goes out for public consumption. > > Looks much better! thanks > > Is there a real good reason to limit the width of the site? Seems like > a waste when you're going to the site to read information, not to look > at the pretty "shadows" on the edges. > The width and `shadows` were by design and yes, for good reason.. not the least of which is I like them and I wrote it! . There are other reasons too, like readability, etc. The real point here is, what you see is my interpretation of how the site should look. You may (and do) have a different opinion. Thank goodness for style sheets, eh? In the BSD tradition, if you don't like it code you own! . The site can accomodate an infinite number of style sheets, and as already stated, everyone is encouraged to add their own. See http://csszengarden.com/ for what I'm talking about. A browser that can handle multiple style sheets can switch among them. In the future we'll have a way to do that actually on the page. > News/Events/etc. should be syndicated as RSS or ATOM (I don't care, > NetNewsWire does both). > While I totally agree a newsfeed is a great idea, the News/Events/etc sections were intended to be OUR news/events/etc.. you know, NYCBUG specific stuff. The two articles there are bad examples of placeholders, sorry. > The style sheet could use a little work (as advertised). The "your ip" > text at the bottom isn't really readable, and the headings could use > some more vertical space between the lines of text.. it renders a bit > different in Mozilla than it does in Safari (well, the 2.0 beta I'm > using). In Mozilla, the header in the top-right bar is spaced fine, in > Safari the two lines of text are right on top of each other. In both, > the news header is really squished. > > -bob > I agree, the current css could surely use a little polish! Thanks for pointing them out, I'll un-squish . Development was done using Mozilla FireFox and tested on Gentoo Linux, FreeBSD, and Mac OSX. It was not tested in other OS's. It renders well in Dillo and Lynx by design! It is god-awful on IE-Mac, so don't even bother. The render is not too-too bad in Safari. I remember it rendered well in Opera several months ago, but I removed QT from my Linux box and no longer run it. Michael From lists Sat Jul 17 10:16:37 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:16:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40F934C5.1040804@genoverly.net> on 20040716 9:09 PM Sunny Dubey had written... > On Friday 16 July 2004 08:00 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > > >>Everyone should be checking it out in multiple browsers. . .but at the >>end of the day, lynx is it. >> > > > this site works with lynx!! 2 thumbs up! way up! > > Sunny Dubey Woot! Thanks Sunny, that is by design! Michael From lists Sat Jul 17 10:33:28 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:33:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> Message-ID: <40F938B8.3000904@genoverly.net> on 20040717 1:39 AM marco at metm.org had written... > On Sat, Jul 17, 2004 at 01:13:12AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: > >>I really have to agree with Bob I's comment about fixed width, all >>dimensions should be relative (cf css em, ex or %), not based on px. >> > > Very, very few dimensions should be relative. The only dimension which > works across all the broken versions of IE is px. > The css gurus swing back and forth on px. http://www.alistapart.com/ http://realworldstyle.com/ http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/ http://meyerweb.com/ > I for one hate reading sites where the lines are extremely long, there > have been many studies which show that long lines are much harder to > read. Implementing true columns (like a newpaper) is difficult. Obviously I agree with the long lines thing.. I toyed with the newspaper design and acutally have an unfinished model. But, in the end I went with the blue chicklets. A good guide for boxes is http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/boxes.html > > There has to be some tweaking of the style sheets to make everything > look right, but all in all the design of the new site looks good. > Thanks, Michael From bob Sat Jul 17 10:53:20 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:53:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <40F93471.6020203@genoverly.net> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40F93471.6020203@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <0B678E46-D801-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 17, 2004, at 10:15 AM, michael wrote: > on 20040716 7:54 PM Bob Ippolito had written... > >> News/Events/etc. should be syndicated as RSS or ATOM (I don't care, >> NetNewsWire does both). > > While I totally agree a newsfeed is a great idea, the News/Events/etc > sections were intended to be OUR news/events/etc.. you know, NYCBUG > specific stuff. The two articles there are bad examples of > placeholders, sorry. If you don't implement RSS feeds, I guarantee I will NEVER read the site unless somebody points me to it via email or IM. I don't periodically go to websites anymore, I just wait until NNW tells me a site has changed. To me, RSS feeds are way more important than the web-browser-digestible site itself. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040717/47d9e007/attachment.bin From pete Sat Jul 17 11:05:39 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:05:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Swealter-fest : Aug 6th 2004! In-Reply-To: <20040717005013.GB21109@metm.org> References: <20040717005013.GB21109@metm.org> Message-ID: <40F94043.7050302@nomadlogic.org> marco at metm.org wrote: >We said we were going to reschedule the installfest at my place, cause >that week with cacerts and hope was totally overcrowed, but as I'm >pretty busy 'till the end of the month, I propose: > > Friday August 6th, an installfest at my place in brklyn. > >Lets make all those jerks with real vacation plans jealous! > >Interesting problems and strange hardware welcome. > >Some beers will be available, but more are absolutely welcome. > >So who's in? > > > i think i'll be able to make it. i'll also be able to bring some extra gear if you need it (monitors, swtich, beer...) -pete From george Sat Jul 17 11:49:12 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:49:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <40F938B8.3000904@genoverly.net> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> <40F938B8.3000904@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <20040717154912.GB14876@trot.local> On Sat, Jul 17, 2004 at 10:33:28AM -0400, michael wrote: >on 20040717 1:39 AM marco at metm.org had written... >>I for one hate reading sites where the lines are extremely long, there >>have been many studies which show that long lines are much harder to >>read. Implementing true columns (like a newpaper) is difficult. > >Obviously I agree with the long lines thing.. I toyed with the newspaper >design and acutally have an unfinished model. But, in the end I went >with the blue chicklets. A good guide for boxes is >http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/boxes.html excellent link, need to check out the others too. I don't like long lines either. but some people like 10pt and others like 28pt as the base size, maybe because they view at 800x600 or 2048x1536 resolution, have a small or large display or need different sizes to accommodate their vision. when dimensions are relative, to font size or window size, the user has more liberty -- she can use big fonts on high res or small fonts on low res. when font sizes are adjusted and the layout is in px, neither the viewer nor the author has control of the layout anymore. The most common problem I find with web sites is when they require me to use the authors font size _and_ pixel dimensions for proper layout, that's not fair. // George -- George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7 9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631 From jesse Sat Jul 17 16:56:27 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:56:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Time Warner Cable?? In-Reply-To: <1089922111.4319.3.camel@linux.site> References: <1089922111.4319.3.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2004, at 4:08 PM, jromero at romero3000.com wrote: > > Speakeasy DSL 6mbps/768k is $99 a month& 1.5mbps/768k is $79. Comes > with > 4 static IPs. If anybody is interested in ordering let me know. I'm a > reseller ;) > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > six megabits? jesus. From mspitze1 Sat Jul 17 17:07:54 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:07:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] POP3 server recommendations In-Reply-To: <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> References: <200407151831.44574.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40F70861.9030504@futurebit.com> <006d01c46ac3$2934ce30$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> <20040715193820.H545@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <20040717170754.6f40c1b4@bogomips.optonline.net> On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Dru wrote: > > I'm building a POP3 server for a client and am looking for suggestions > for the most secure (he-he) app available. According to the ports > descriptions, that brings me down to: > > akpop3d > dovecot > missey umm that pop3s not pop3, right? pop3 is a clear text protocol, not secure at all. I am pretty sure dovecot does pop3s, the others I have no idea marc > > The client isn't interested in IMAP but wants POP3. Anyone have > experience with any of these and reasons to recommend one over the > other? > > Dru > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From jesse Sat Jul 17 17:53:35 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:53:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: new NYCBUG www site. . . In-Reply-To: <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> References: <6931C966-D74B-11D8-B6AB-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <81F5E0B3-D783-11D8-B460-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <3FDB8514-D784-11D8-AE8C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200407162109.51434.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040717051312.GF8247@trot.local> <20040717053940.GA24523@metm.org> Message-ID: On Jul 17, 2004, at 1:39 AM, marco at metm.org wrote: > On Sat, Jul 17, 2004 at 01:13:12AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: >> I really have to agree with Bob I's comment about fixed width, all >> dimensions should be relative (cf css em, ex or %), not based on px. >> > Very, very few dimensions should be relative. The only dimension which > works across all the broken versions of IE is px. > > I for one hate reading sites where the lines are extremely long, there > have been many studies which show that long lines are much harder to > read. Implementing true columns (like a newpaper) is difficult. > > There has to be some tweaking of the style sheets to make everything > look right, but all in all the design of the new site looks good. > > -- > Marco Making little tweaks on pages where everthing is relative ends up taking hours. From lists Sun Jul 18 13:42:29 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:42:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dev site Message-ID: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> http://dev.nycbug.org added `contact us` form simplified `donate` page several minor css changes tested Opera on FreeBSD tested Camino on MacOSX . am working on filling in data from current site to make look more real. A lot of the feedback so far has been layout related. While this is important, remember the style sheet can be easily replaced or completely removed. I am hoping to find out if the function of the site is workable. Does it do what we need it to do? What pieces are missing? What is not needed? For instance... > on 20040717 10:53 AM Bob Ippolito had written... > > If you don't implement RSS feeds, I guarantee I will NEVER > read the site ... What else? Michael From sunny-ml Sun Jul 18 15:36:30 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:36:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dev site In-Reply-To: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> References: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <200407181536.30560.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 18 July 2004 01:42 pm, michael wrote: > I am hoping to find out if the function of the site is workable. Does > it do what we need it to do? What pieces are missing? What is not needed? > How about some sort of gallery? for pix and movies. Sunny Dubey From pete Sun Jul 18 17:08:13 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:08:13 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dev site In-Reply-To: <200407181536.30560.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> <200407181536.30560.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40FAE6BD.1060702@nomadlogic.org> Sunny Dubey wrote: >On Sunday 18 July 2004 01:42 pm, michael wrote: > > > >>I am hoping to find out if the function of the site is workable. Does >>it do what we need it to do? What pieces are missing? What is not needed? >> >> >> yea i really think the site is easy to navigate, and there is a bunch of information there as well. i like the bsdtracker tab. what exactly does it do? the library, i think, is going to be a helpfull resource. i think a tab that contains links to both the dmesg and bsdtracker items may be a cleaner design. > >How about some sort of gallery? for pix and movies. > > > i think this will fit under the library tab, should it have it's own? >Sunny Dubey >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > -- Peter Wright Systems Administrator Click3X NYC pwright at click3x.com 212.627.1900 From george Sun Jul 18 17:41:03 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:41:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ekkoBSD Message-ID: <2AEC7278-D903-11D8-A0F1-000D9328615E@sddi.net> http://www.ekkobsd.org/ it's dead. . . g From lists Sun Jul 18 17:56:41 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:56:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dev site In-Reply-To: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> References: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <40FAF219.6020503@genoverly.net> on 20040718 1:42 PM michael had written... > http://dev.nycbug.org > > What else? > Michael > put in `gallery` put in `apps` but left dmesg and bsdtracker to see which way we like added a lot of original site data What else? Michael From george Sun Jul 18 19:22:45 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:22:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] dev site In-Reply-To: <40FAF219.6020503@genoverly.net> References: <40FAB685.7010300@genoverly.net> <40FAF219.6020503@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <5FEB1B8A-D911-11D8-BCE2-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:56 PM, michael wrote: > on 20040718 1:42 PM michael had written... > >> http://dev.nycbug.org >> What else? >> Michael > > > put in `gallery` the benefit being that we do have a bit of content for this section. . .right Big I? > put in `apps` but left dmesg and bsdtracker to see which way we like What does this mean regarding dmesgd and bsdtracker? > added a lot of original site data > From ike Mon Jul 19 17:19:14 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:19:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] iSCSI SAN fun on the BSD's? Message-ID: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi all, Was just doing some reading about iSCSI, trying to solve a problem (and not have to buy Fibre Channel stuff...). With that, does anyone know anything about iSCSI or other SAN backend stuff that can be done with the BSD's, (actually, FreeBSD would be the 'client' boxes)... Any URLS or pointers to man pages would be greatly appreciated... Barfing out buzzwords, hoping I don't hit anybody's shoes, .ike From pete Mon Jul 19 19:15:12 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:15:12 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] iSCSI SAN fun on the BSD's? In-Reply-To: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40FC5600.1040902@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi all, > > Was just doing some reading about iSCSI, trying to solve a problem > (and not have to buy Fibre Channel stuff...). > > With that, does anyone know anything about iSCSI or other SAN backend > stuff that can be done with the BSD's, (actually, FreeBSD would be the > 'client' boxes)... > from my experience using this stuff on IRIX and Linux is that if the OS supports the Fiber Chan card (sorry havn't used iSCSI cards yet, altho from what i've heard from others in the BUG is that FreeBSD's support for this tech. is not there yet) then the storage should just show up as a volume. Generally with large Fiber Chan storage the firmware takes care of slicing up, grouping and RAID'ing the disks. The cards I've worked with are Qlogic's and they all seem to work quite well with IRIX. -p > Any URLS or pointers to man pages would be greatly appreciated... > the "isp" and "ispfw" drivers for FreeBSD are where I would start looking for fiberchan cards.... > Barfing out buzzwords, hoping I don't hit anybody's shoes, > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jesse Mon Jul 19 18:19:45 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:19:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] iSCSI SAN fun on the BSD's? In-Reply-To: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: I was looking for one at my last job. An initiator for FreeBSD that is, but was disenhartened to learn that only RedHat provides one for free. I was so pissed off. When I read your email I flipped back into disbelief and started searching. here's what I found: The outlook: http://www.byteandswitch.com/document.asp?doc_id=20901 The outcome: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/current-users/2004/05/27/0002.html I wonder if the price isn't too bad. Somebody have all the ugly details of why there isn't one? It's not bad technology over Gig-E... but it is kinda slow with all of that TCP/IP going on. I wonder if there could be a different kind of bus... like straight over the Gig ports, and, yes using Ethernet since the cards can't really do much else... but maybe no TCP or UDP. Is there already something like this? What's it called? You know a SAN protocol which runs over Ethernet? Anyone want to write one? I think it would be fun (and way outside my current capabilities). Why doesn't iSCSI use UDP anyway? As long as you tell the kernel "I'm still waiting..." The app should be in a happy deadlock or picking it's nose or something. Anyway. Somebody tell me I'm dead wrong I don't know what I'm talking about on these two issues. I have my double-aught welder's mask on. On Jul 19, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi all, > > Was just doing some reading about iSCSI, trying to solve a problem > (and not have to buy Fibre Channel stuff...). > > With that, does anyone know anything about iSCSI or other SAN backend > stuff that can be done with the BSD's, (actually, FreeBSD would be the > 'client' boxes)... > > Any URLS or pointers to man pages would be greatly appreciated... > > Barfing out buzzwords, hoping I don't hit anybody's shoes, > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From pete Mon Jul 19 21:15:17 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:15:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] iSCSI SAN fun on the BSD's? In-Reply-To: References: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40FC7225.9050401@nomadlogic.org> Jesse Callaway wrote: > I was looking for one at my last job. An initiator for FreeBSD that > is, but was disenhartened to learn that only RedHat provides one for > free. I was so pissed off. When I read your email I flipped back into > disbelief and started searching. here's what I found: i *believe* that there is SuSE support as well. -pete From trish Tue Jul 20 15:33:11 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] anyone know of any jobs... Message-ID: <20040720152906.E70766@ultra.bsdunix.net> that are open and full-time for a sysadmin/network type? preferably in NYC area I've been at disney for 15 months now, and my insurance runs out via cobra in a month. They seem to be interested in keeping me, but seem to not be getting things together for a full time position. I need insurance, as I have a family to take care of, and while I like where I am, I need to think of what might be best for my family. So if anyone knows anything thats open... please let me know. -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From pete Tue Jul 20 17:54:11 2004 From: pete (peter wright) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:54:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD Message-ID: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> anyone else notice the TinyBSD post today current at freebsd.org today? sounds pretty interesting, the default install is only 19MB. They guy's starting it up think that because PicoBSD dosn't play nice with 5.x this might be a nice alternative. -pete From george Tue Jul 20 20:58:44 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD In-Reply-To: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> References: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <1D1EB743-DAB1-11D8-BF24-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 20, 2004, at 5:54 PM, peter wright wrote: > anyone else notice the TinyBSD post today current at freebsd.org today? > sounds pretty interesting, the default install is only 19MB. They > guy's starting it up think that because PicoBSD dosn't play nice with > 5.x this might be a nice alternative. > > -pete > I need to check out myself. . . I screwed around with closedBSD for a while, but seems like development died on it. . . g From mspitze1 Tue Jul 20 23:01:20 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:01:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD In-Reply-To: <1D1EB743-DAB1-11D8-BF24-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> <1D1EB743-DAB1-11D8-BF24-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040720230120.7dec5a34@bogomips.optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:44 -0400 "G.Rosamond" wrote: > > On Jul 20, 2004, at 5:54 PM, peter wright wrote: > > > anyone else notice the TinyBSD post today current at freebsd.org today? > > > > sounds pretty interesting, the default install is only 19MB. They > > guy's starting it up think that because PicoBSD dosn't play nice > > with 5.x this might be a nice alternative. > > > > -pete > > > > I need to check out myself. . . > > I screwed around with closedBSD for a while, but seems like > development died on it. . . umm, what is wrong with netbsd? It is designed to be embedded, among other things. marc > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From louis Tue Jul 20 23:35:30 2004 From: louis (Louis Bertrand) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Non-MMU CPs (was: Re: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD) In-Reply-To: <20040720230120.7dec5a34@bogomips.optonline.net> References: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> <1D1EB743-DAB1-11D8-BF24-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040720230120.7dec5a34@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Marc Spitzer wrote: > umm, what is wrong with netbsd? It is designed to be embedded, > among other things. > One of the things that always puzzled me about embedded *nix of any description, is how does it play with really small CPU architectures that don't have a proper hardware MMU. I'm thinking more along the lines of 16-bit microcontrollers, rather than, let's say, embedded 80386 chips. Does NetBSD handle that gracefully? Ciao --Louis From bob Tue Jul 20 23:47:28 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:47:28 -0400 Subject: Non-MMU CPs (was: Re: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD) In-Reply-To: References: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> <1D1EB743-DAB1-11D8-BF24-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040720230120.7dec5a34@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:35 PM, Louis Bertrand wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Marc Spitzer wrote: > >> umm, what is wrong with netbsd? It is designed to be embedded, >> among other things. >> > One of the things that always puzzled me about embedded *nix > of any description, is how does it play with really small > CPU architectures that don't have a proper hardware MMU. > I'm thinking more along the lines of 16-bit microcontrollers, > rather than, let's say, embedded 80386 chips. > > Does NetBSD handle that gracefully? I doubt it. I think NetBSD only supports >=32bit CPUs with MMUs, which aren't really that expensive these days anyway. Worst case, there's eCos/uCLinux... -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040720/2143e127/attachment.bin From pete Wed Jul 21 13:41:31 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:41:31 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD In-Reply-To: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> References: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40FEAACB.5000104@nomadlogic.org> peter wright wrote: > anyone else notice the TinyBSD post today current at freebsd.org today? > sounds pretty interesting, the default install is only 19MB. They > guy's starting it up think that because PicoBSD dosn't play nice with > 5.x this might be a nice alternative. > this might be interesting for the soekris folks out there(from current@ today): For example, assuming a 32MB flash memory, one could use the following parameters to create an embedded system: ./tinybsd.sh 62592 4 32 Or optionally the name of the output image you want: ./tinybsd.sh 62592 4 32 myimage.bin i like how it is basicly a shell script, so you can take a running system and clone it to an embedded device. anyway it's always good to see folks hacking on stuff i'm hacking on ;) -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Wed Jul 21 16:19:14 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:19:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? Message-ID: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Would love hear some feedback. . . http://www.bsdmall.com/daemons.html g From george Wed Jul 21 16:19:14 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:19:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? Message-ID: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Would love hear some feedback. . . http://www.bsdmall.com/daemons.html g From hanulec Wed Jul 21 17:19:02 2004 From: hanulec (Michael Hanulec) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] iSCSI SAN fun on the BSD's? In-Reply-To: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <48F19B65-D9C9-11D8-8D9E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: while I haven't attempted this w/ FreeBSD yet it could be possible w/ NetBSD. I'm in the initial stages of evaluating an iSCSI storage software from Wasabi Systems. Their overall system looks relatively painless as long as your hardware is supported: http://www.wasabisystems.com/products/storagebuilder.htm I'm not sure of how frequently Wasabi commits its NetBSD additions back to netbsd-current but it might be worth wild looking into it. -Mike -- hanulec at hanulec.com cell: 858.518.2647 && 516.410.4478 https://secure.hanulec.com EFnet irc && aol im: hanulec On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi all, > > Was just doing some reading about iSCSI, trying to solve a problem (and not > have to buy Fibre Channel stuff...). > > With that, does anyone know anything about iSCSI or other SAN backend stuff > that can be done with the BSD's, (actually, FreeBSD would be the 'client' > boxes)... > > Any URLS or pointers to man pages would be greatly appreciated... > > Barfing out buzzwords, hoping I don't hit anybody's shoes, > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > From lists Wed Jul 21 13:32:31 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:32:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] TinyBSD In-Reply-To: <40FEAACB.5000104@nomadlogic.org> References: <40FD9483.5@nomadlogic.org> <40FEAACB.5000104@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040721133231.49d940bc@delinux.abwatley.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:41:31 -0500 Pete Wright wrote: > > this might be interesting for the soekris folks out there(from > current@ today): > > .. we are on the same train.. -- --- From lists Wed Jul 21 17:45:25 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:45:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:19:14 -0400 G.Rosamond wrote: > http://www.bsdmall.com/daemons.html I tell ya.. I really liked the idea about using subway letters for BSD and the general format being of a sign like you read on the way down from the street. I remember *many* people said it would make a cool t-shirt. -- --- From chrisc Wed Jul 21 19:58:15 2004 From: chrisc (Chris Coleman) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <20040721165728.A34633@ithildin.daemonnews.org> > I tell ya.. I really liked the idea about using subway letters for BSD > and the general format being of a sign like you read on the way down > from the street. I remember *many* people said it would make a cool > t-shirt. Can you get me a photo of the original subway sign that you want it patterned after and the exact text of what you want it to say? -Chris From lists Wed Jul 21 22:29:30 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:29:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <20040721165728.A34633@ithildin.daemonnews.org> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040721165728.A34633@ithildin.daemonnews.org> Message-ID: <40FF268A.7040408@genoverly.net> on 20040721 7:58 PM Chris Coleman had written... >>I tell ya.. I really liked the idea about using subway letters for BSD >>and the general format being of a sign like you read on the way down >>from the street. I remember *many* people said it would make a cool >>t-shirt. > > > Can you get me a photo of the original subway sign that you want it > patterned after and the exact text of what you want it to say? > > -Chris I'm trying to remember... I think it was Ike... OK found it. Ike posted it to talk on Jan25 around 6pm. The graphic didn't make the archives so I took the liberty to putting it on the dev.nycbug.org site. Click the gallery tab. I hope this does not upset Ike. We can take it down in the morning. It does not have to be exactly this, but I really liked the concept. Michael From george Wed Jul 21 23:08:00 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:08:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <40FF268A.7040408@genoverly.net> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040721165728.A34633@ithildin.daemonnews.org> <40FF268A.7040408@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <56AEC066-DB8C-11D8-9677-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 21, 2004, at 10:29 PM, michael wrote: > on 20040721 7:58 PM Chris Coleman had written... >>> I tell ya.. I really liked the idea about using subway letters for >>> BSD >>> and the general format being of a sign like you read on the way down >>> from the street. I remember *many* people said it would make a cool >>> t-shirt. >> Can you get me a photo of the original subway sign that you want it >> patterned after and the exact text of what you want it to say? >> -Chris > > I'm trying to remember... I think it was Ike... OK found it. Ike > posted it to talk on Jan25 around 6pm. The graphic didn't make the > archives so I took the liberty to putting it on the dev.nycbug.org > site. Click the gallery tab. I hope this does not upset Ike. We can > take it down in the morning. > > It does not have to be exactly this, but I really liked the concept. > There's no U trains in NYC, but there are the B (orange), S (grey, shuttle b/w times sq & grand central), D (orange, also). The colors were in for both the tourists and graphic designers. . . I like the concept very much too. . .it's the right approach. . . g From pete Wed Jul 21 23:20:03 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:20:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <56AEC066-DB8C-11D8-9677-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040721165728.A34633@ithildin.daemonnews.org> <40FF268A.7040408@genoverly.net> <56AEC066-DB8C-11D8-9677-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40FF3263.7080104@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > There's no U trains in NYC, but there are the B (orange), S (grey, > shuttle b/w times sq & grand central), D (orange, also). The colors > were in for both the tourists and graphic designers. . . > > I like the concept very much too. . .it's the right approach. . . > i really like the subway approach. i mean what three things do non-new yorkers associate with new york: the mets the giants the subway ;p -pete From okan Wed Jul 21 23:49:09 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:49:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <40FF3263.7080104@nomadlogic.org> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040721165728.A34633@ithildin.daemonnews.org> <40FF268A.7040408@genoverly.net> <56AEC066-DB8C-11D8-9677-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40FF3263.7080104@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040722034909.GA56260@yinaska.pair.com> On Wed 2004.07.21 at 23:20 -0400, pete wright wrote: > G.Rosamond wrote: > > > > >There's no U trains in NYC, but there are the B (orange), S (grey, > >shuttle b/w times sq & grand central), D (orange, also). The colors > >were in for both the tourists and graphic designers. . . > > > >I like the concept very much too. . .it's the right approach. . . > > > i really like the subway approach. i mean what three things do non-new > yorkers associate with new york: > > the mets > the giants > the subway uhm, the yankee's! > ;p > > -pete > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From trish Thu Jul 22 03:54:24 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <20040722035307.Q71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, michael wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:19:14 -0400 > G.Rosamond wrote: > > > http://www.bsdmall.com/daemons.html > > I tell ya.. I really liked the idea about using subway letters for BSD > and the general format being of a sign like you read on the way down > from the street. I remember *many* people said it would make a cool > t-shirt. > > I'm a member of an organization that did a shirt similar, involving B, D, M, and S and it rocks :) - -Trish - -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA/3K4JrIdYm/B/xYRAjs3AJ9xxOp9lUO1Ho9Y+5xX1CjzFmXMLgCfSlDT LX+AGQjrNW6vYrBLLaBMepg= =QDFq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From karthik.gopalakrishnan Thu Jul 22 04:21:51 2004 From: karthik.gopalakrishnan (Karthik Gopalakrishnan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:51:51 +0530 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD TCP/IP stack for Linux Message-ID: Can anyone please suggest me a web site or a mirror from where I can download TCP/IP stack sources which can be built for Linux. Thanks, Karthik. From pete Thu Jul 22 09:51:28 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:51:28 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <20040722035307.Q71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040722035307.Q71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: <40FFC660.9080108@nomadlogic.org> Trish Lynch wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, michael wrote: > > > >>On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:19:14 -0400 >>G.Rosamond wrote: >> >> >> >>>http://www.bsdmall.com/daemons.html >>> >>> >>I tell ya.. I really liked the idea about using subway letters for BSD >>and the general format being of a sign like you read on the way down >>from the street. I remember *many* people said it would make a cool >>t-shirt. >> >> >> >> > >I'm a member of an organization that did a shirt similar, involving >B, D, M, and S and it rocks :) > > > ROTFL! now i wounder how many people will get the nycbug confused with that ;) -p >- -Trish > > >- -- >Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net >Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org >EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet >Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) > >iD8DBQFA/3K4JrIdYm/B/xYRAjs3AJ9xxOp9lUO1Ho9Y+5xX1CjzFmXMLgCfSlDT >LX+AGQjrNW6vYrBLLaBMepg= >=QDFq >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Thu Jul 22 09:58:48 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:58:48 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD TCP/IP stack for Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40FFC818.7060102@nomadlogic.org> Karthik Gopalakrishnan wrote: >Can anyone please suggest me a web site or a mirror from where I can >download TCP/IP stack sources which can be built for Linux. > > well it really depends on what you mean by the TCP/IP sources. one great place to start would be to visit www.freebsd.org. from there this might be helpfull: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/anoncvs.html this will explain how to check out freebsd source code. you also might be interested in checking out www.openbsd.org or www.netbsd.org. they have very similar setups. now as far as porting the FreeBSD tcp/ip stack to gnu/linux i don't know where you would start to do this. maybe someone else on the list knows of a port of the bsd tcp/ip to gnu/linux, maybe you can do this with netbsd's pkgsrc? -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jfreeman Thu Jul 22 11:56:55 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:56:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] consult Message-ID: Hey all you BSD people. We have a brand new ION Computing server with FreeBSD 5.2 installed. We want to install bacula on it and use it with our spectralogic tape library. Here's the conundrum: I'm relatively new here... prior to my arrival, this was mostly a Windoze shop on the desktop and on the server side. My Sysads are very solid windoze sysads and that's fine... they're beginning to get comfortable with Linux (as I am)... now.. we're all gonna start grokking BSD... so.. back to the conundrum: We're running out of DLT tapes for our HP ShureStore library (or whatever that thing is called)... I don't want to order new tapes for a tape library I'm going to be deprecating. We HAVE a license for Brightstor... if I let them, the sysads could throw Windows Server 2003 on the Ion Computing box and put brightstor on it and we'd have the spectralogic up and running by day's end.. but... I'd really rather move in the direction of BSD and Bacula.. Is there anyone out there that'd like to help us properly setup our BSD box and get bacula up and running and the spectralogic working? the important aspect of this is we're looking for someone to teach us to fish, not sell us fish.. we'd like to do this asap.. if you're interested, please call me at 347 392 2560 to discuss. Thanks! J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Computer Services New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From pete Thu Jul 22 13:05:22 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:05:22 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] consult In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40FFF3D2.4070403@nomadlogic.org> Joshua S. Freeman wrote: >Hey all you BSD people. > >We have a brand new ION Computing server with FreeBSD 5.2 installed. > >We want to install bacula on it and use it with our spectralogic tape >library. > >Here's the conundrum: > >I'm relatively new here... > >prior to my arrival, this was mostly a Windoze shop on the desktop and on >the server side. > >My Sysads are very solid windoze sysads and that's fine... they're beginning >to get comfortable with Linux (as I am)... > >now.. we're all gonna start grokking BSD... > >so.. back to the conundrum: > >We're running out of DLT tapes for our HP ShureStore library (or whatever >that thing is called)... > > >I don't want to order new tapes for a tape library I'm going to be >deprecating. > >We HAVE a license for Brightstor... if I let them, the sysads could throw >Windows Server 2003 on the Ion Computing box and put brightstor on it and >we'd have the spectralogic up and running by day's end.. > >but... I'd really rather move in the direction of BSD and Bacula.. > >Is there anyone out there that'd like to help us properly setup our BSD box >and get bacula up and running and the spectralogic working? > >the important aspect of this is we're looking for someone to teach us to >fish, not sell us fish.. > > > i'd be willing to give you a hand. I'm just finishing up my testing on FreeBSD 4.x and Bacula. It will be backing up various Linux/IRIX/BSD boxen on our LAN. Are there specific questions you have? The Bacula mailing list is very active, and everyone is very approachable. Also #bacula on irc.freenode.net is running, altho things have been not so busy lately on that chan. Also, is there a reason why you would like to use FreeBSD 5.x (device driver support?) 5.x has not been deemed production ready yet, altho I know alot of people are using it in production. There are some cases when 5.x will actually be slower that 4.x, at least for now ;) They only caveat for me is that I am *very* busy right now at work, but I will defiantly be willing to help you out if need be. cheers, pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From kit Thu Jul 22 12:07:12 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:07:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <40FFC660.9080108@nomadlogic.org> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040722035307.Q71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> <40FFC660.9080108@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: At 8:51 AM -0500 7/22/04, Pete Wright wrote: >Trish Lynch wrote: <...> >>I'm a member of an organization that did a shirt similar, involving >>B, D, M, and S and it rocks :) >> >> > >ROTFL! now i wounder how many people will get the nycbug confused >with that ;) I think Trish is talking about more of a meanbug kind of thing. -Kit, going for more coffee -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From trish Thu Jul 22 12:41:29 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040722035307.Q71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> <40FFC660.9080108@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040722120824.M71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Kit Halsted wrote: > > > >ROTFL! now i wounder how many people will get the nycbug confused > >with that ;) > > I think Trish is talking about more of a meanbug kind of thing. > > > > -Kit, going for more coffee something like that, its no secret I wear lots of leather :) The tat I want to get is Emily Daemon in a leather vest and levis and boots with a whip in her hand :) - -Trish - -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA/+48JrIdYm/B/xYRAskDAJ9pBtVXv95XqtQhkAcrGh/HoXuUjQCfXse0 9XRL4gzQ/RJ8/xsack5FLB8= =iFz1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From george Thu Jul 22 13:25:12 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:25:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] consult In-Reply-To: <40FFF3D2.4070403@nomadlogic.org> References: <40FFF3D2.4070403@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <168145DE-DC04-11D8-9677-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 22, 2004, at 1:05 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > > > You could also use our jobs list for this. . . lists.nycbug.org g From lists Thu Jul 22 13:52:29 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:52:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] consult In-Reply-To: <40FFF3D2.4070403@nomadlogic.org> References: <40FFF3D2.4070403@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040722135229.334f1e26@delinux.abwatley.com> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:05:22 -0500 Pete Wright wrote: > i'd be willing to give you a hand. I'm just finishing up my testing > on FreeBSD 4.x and Bacula. It will be backing up various > Linux/IRIX/BSD boxen on our LAN. I'm curious, does nomadlogic Bacula to spectralogic? If not.. then to what? -- --- From steve Thu Jul 22 14:07:29 2004 From: steve (Steve Rieger) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:07:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hello All Smi New guy here Message-ID: <20040722180731.XLRG3910.out005.verizon.net@stacy> Have a few general questions, In ports how would I go about installing with different than the default values, ie. Zabbix, I want to install it as static, I installed mysqlserver 4, and when I try to install a port that requires mysql, it tries to install mysql 3.2 How would I install perl 5.8.4, I tried changing the version line in Makefile to 5.8.4, but didn't work, Where can I find answers to these question and similar ones on the web, I don't think that there is a need to bother all of you each time I have a question thanx -- Steve Rieger ICQ# 53956607 MSN IM steve at n2sw.com Yahoo IM riegersteve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040722/11e009b3/attachment.html From pete Thu Jul 22 16:12:35 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:12:35 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] consult In-Reply-To: <20040722135229.334f1e26@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <40FFF3D2.4070403@nomadlogic.org> <20040722135229.334f1e26@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <41001FB3.4010205@nomadlogic.org> michael wrote: >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:05:22 -0500 >Pete Wright wrote: > > > > >>i'd be willing to give you a hand. I'm just finishing up my testing >>on FreeBSD 4.x and Bacula. It will be backing up various >>Linux/IRIX/BSD boxen on our LAN. >> >> > >I'm curious, does nomadlogic Bacula to spectralogic? >If not.. then to what? > > > > nah, i just use ssh+rsync ;P -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Thu Jul 22 15:17:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:17:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Tshirt thoughts? In-Reply-To: <20040722120824.M71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> References: <3C59988C-DB53-11D8-9E27-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040721174525.3004ed9f@delinux.abwatley.com> <20040722035307.Q71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> <40FFC660.9080108@nomadlogic.org> <20040722120824.M71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Trish Lynch wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > something like that, its no secret I wear lots of leather :) > > The tat I want to get is Emily Daemon in a leather vest and levis and > boots with a whip in her hand :) > Now *that's* a concept for NYCBUG. . . a rogue's gallery of NYC-ish characters. . .as the beastie. . . s&m outfit, mugger, yankee player, etc. . .all the stereotypes. . . it would be a big hit at non-nyc events. . .we could even sell them door to door in the dorms at the University of Ottawa. . . g From lists Thu Jul 22 22:03:32 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:03:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly] Message-ID: <410071F4.5040006@genoverly.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, July 22 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:49:44 -0700 ================================================================ O'Reilly News for User Group Members July 22, 2004 ================================================================ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Book News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -Pragmatic Project Automation: How to Build, Deploy, and Monitor Java Apps -The Book of Nero 6 Ultra Edition -Enterprise JavaBeans, 4th Edition -Learning PHP 5 -Java 1.5 Tiger: A Developer's Notebook -Enterprise Service Bus -GarageBand: The Missing Manual -Mac OS X Panther Hacks ---------------------------------------------------------------- Upcoming Events ---------------------------------------------------------------- -O'Reilly Open Source Convention, Portland, OR--July 26-30 -Dan Gillmor ("We the Media") and Paul Graham ("Hackers & Painters"), Powell's Books, Portland, OR--July 28 -Tim O'Reilly Speaks at the Portland Area .NET User Group Meeting, Portland, OR--July 29 -Alex Martelli ("Python in a Nutshell"), Powell's Books, Portland, OR--July 29 -Niel M. Bornstein (".NET and XML"), Extreme Markup Languages 2004, Montreal, Canada--August 2-6 -O'Reilly at LinuxWorld, San Francisco, CA--August 2-5 -MERLOT International Conference, Costa Mesa, CA--August 3-6 -Steve Bass ("PC Annoyances"), 11th Annual Southwest Computer User Group Conference, San Diego, CA--August 6-8 -Wil Wheaton ("Just a Geek"), Powell's Technical Books, Portland, OR--August 6 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Conference News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -O'Reilly Open Source Convention User Group Discount ---------------------------------------------------------------- News ---------------------------------------------------------------- -The Ideal Digital Photographer's Workflow, Part 5 -SafariU: Create, Customize, and Share Teaching Material -The Great Linux Desktop Migration Contest -Why PHP 5 Rocks! -How to Fall in Love with Your iSight, Again -12 Steps to Improving Your Mac's Performance -Macworld Boston 2004: Brains Over Beauty -Windows Server Hacks: Restoring Shadow Copies Using the Command Line -Understanding WinFX in Longhorn -Better, Faster, Lighter Programming in .NET and Java -Cooking with Eclipse -Writing Cross-Platform Mobile Applications Using Crossfire ---------------------------------------------------------------- News From Your Peers ---------------------------------------------------------------- -How to Write a Book Review by the Melbourne PHP User Group ================================================ Book News ================================================ Did you know you can request a free book to review for your group? Ask your group leader for more information. For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to: http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, or Syngress book you purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938. http://www.oreilly.com/ ***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico. For more details, go to: http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- New Releases ---------------------------------------------------------------- ***Pragmatic Project Automation: How to Build, Deploy, and Monitor Java Apps Publisher: Pragmatic Bookshelf ISBN: 0974514039 Forget wizards, you need a slave--someone to do your repetitive, tedious and boring tasks, without complaint and without pay, so you'll have more time to design and write exciting code. Enlist your computer to automate all of your Java project's repetitive tasks from individual builds and testing through to product release and deployment. Enjoy pragmatic, automatic, unattended software production that's reliable and accurate every time. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0974514039/ ***The Book of Nero 6 Ultra Edition Publisher: No Starch Press ISBN: 1593270437 The Nero Ultra 6 software makes it easier to burn a CD or DVD, but to use it you first need to understand how it works, as well as things such as whether to burn a multisession CD, what mode to use, how to burn music files, and much more. The Book of Nero 6 Ultra Edition takes you step by step through using Nero for these tasks, and many others, so you'll be ready to burn in no time. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270437/ ***Enterprise JavaBeans, 4th Edition Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 059600530X "Enterprise JavaBeans, 4th Edition" includes everything that made previous editions the single must-have book for EJB developers. Providing a solid grasp of EJBs??? complexities; hundreds of clear, practical examples; and adept coverage of EJBs' key concepts, this fourth edition also includes everything you need to get up to speed quickly on the changes in EJB version 2.1, including an architecture overview, design strategies, XML deployment descriptors, and more. The book also includes a JBoss implementation guide. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/entjbeans4/ A sample excerpt, "Workbook 8: Exercises for Chapter 11," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/entjbeans4/chapter/index.html ***Learning PHP 5 Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596005601 "Learning PHP 5" is the ideal tutorial for graphic designers, bloggers, and other web crafters who want a thorough but non-intimidating way to understand the code that makes web sites dynamic. The book begins with an introduction to the just-released PHP 5, then moves to more advanced features: language basics, arrays and functions, web forms, connecting to databases, and much more. Complete with exercises to make sure the lessons stick, this book offers the ideal classroom experience to learning PHP 5. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnphp5/ Chapter 8, "Remembering Users with Cookies and Sessions,' is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnphp5/chapter/index.html ***Java 1.5 Tiger: A Developer's Notebook Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596007388 Java 1.5, code-named "Tiger," promises to be the most significant new version of Java since the language's introduction. But with so many changes, where do you start? This no-nonsense, down-and-dirty guide is the answer, providing complete coverage of generics, boxing and unboxing, varargs, enums, annotations, formatting, the for/in loop, concurrency, and more. Following the task-oriented format unique to this new series, this book allows you to get straight to work with Tiger's new features. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/learnphp5/chapter/index.html Chapter 3, "Enumerated Types," is available free online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/javaadn/chapter/index.html ***Enterprise Service Bus Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006756 "Enterprise Service Bus" provides an architectural overview of the ESB, showing how it can bring the task of integrating enterprise applications and services built on J2EE, .NET, C/C++, and other legacy environments into the reach of everyday IT professionals, using an event-driven Service-Oriented Architecture. Through the study of real-world-use cases drawn from several industries deploying ESB, this book coherently outlines the benefits of moving toward this integration strategy, and it compares and contrasts ESB to other integration architectures. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/esb/ Chapter 3, "Necessity Is the Mother of Invention," is available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/esb/chapter/index.html ***GarageBand: The Missing Manual Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596006950 Imagine how many thousands of musicians, though enormously talented, remain undiscovered because they lack recording studios and backup bands. For them, GarageBand may open doors--or just offer a lot of fun. GarageBand can turn the inspiration of musical novices into commercial-sounding demos, but you have to know how to take advantage of all that the program offers. This book provides that knowledge. "GarageBand: The Missing Manual" is an authoritative, witty guide to constructing your digital recordings. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/garageband/ Check out the GarageBand examples CD available for download: http://www.missingmanuals.com/cds/#garageband ***Mac OS X Panther Hacks Publisher: O'Reilly ISBN: 0596007183 This book offers the perfect combination of tips, tricks, and tools to help serious Mac users get the most from their machines. This newly revised collection provides hands-on solutions in topics such as user interface, accessories, wired and wireless networking, email, messaging, and much more. Written for users who need to go beyond what's covered in conventional manuals, "Mac OS X Panther Hacks" will bring your Mac to its full potential. http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596007183/ Ten sample hacks are available online: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596007183/chapter/index.html ================================================ Upcoming Events ================================================ ***For more events, please see: http://events.oreilly.com/ ***O'Reilly Open Source Convention, Portland, OR--July 26-30 Mark your calendar to join us for the sixth annual O'Reilly Open Source Convention this summer. Fresh ideas are already sizzling on the OSCON program barbie, including keynote addresses by two of 2003's most riveting speakers, Robert Lefkowitz and Milton Ngan, as well as a trio of Dysons: Esther, Freeman, and George. Bring the family along--Portland has something for everyone. Portland Marriott Downtown, Portland, OR http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ ***Dan Gillmor ("We the Media") and Paul Graham ("Hackers & Painters"), Powell's Books, Portland OR--July 28 Powell's hosts a special double-header with two authors in town for OSCON. Powell's Technical Books, Portland, OR http://www.powells.com/calendar.html ***Tim O'Reilly Speaks at the Portland Area .NET User Group Meeting Portland, OR--July 29 "An Evening With Tim O'Reilly--Tim discusses what is on the O'Reilly Radar." The meeting starts at 6:30pm Portland Community College Auditorium, Room 104, 1626 SE Water Ave., Portland, OR http://www.padnug.org ***Alex Martelli ("Python in a Nutshell"), Powell's Books, Portland, OR--July 29 Alex stops in for an appearance at Portland's favorite bookstore. Powell's Technical Books, Portland, OR http://www.powells.com/calendar.html ***Niel M. Bornstein (".NET and XML"), Extreme Markup Languages 2004, Montreal, Canada--August 2-6 Niel presents a tutorial based on his book. Hotel Europa, Montreal, Canada http://www.mulberrytech.com/Extreme/Tutorial/Bornstein_tutorial.html ***O'Reilly at LinuxWorld, San Francisco, CA--August 2-5 Come by and say hello in the Exhibit Hall (I--Marsee--will be there on Thursday, August 5th), and page through our latest publications, as well as our classic references, at our booth (#873). Be sure to catch a panel on The Future of Open Source with Tim O'Reilly on Tuesday, August 3. Moscone Center, San Francisco, CA http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/live/12/ ***MERLOT International Conference, Costa Mesa, CA--August 3-6 We'll be exhibiting at this event for faculty members, digital library providers and developers, authors of digital learning materials, and those involved in administering and supporting instructional technology. Stop by for a preview of our SafariU service. Hilton Costa Mesa, Costa Mesa, CA http://conference.merlot.org/ ***Steve Bass ("PC Annoyances"), 11th Annual Southwest Computer User Group Conference, San Diego, CA--August 6-8 If you'll be there on the evening of August 7, be sure to drop by the Vendor Fair and say hello to Steve. Hilton Hotel--Mission Valley, San Diego, CA http://www.swugconf.org/ ***Wil Wheaton ("Just a Geek"), Powell's Technical Books, Portland, OR--August 6 Wil heads north for an appearance and book signing. 33 NW Park Avenue Portland, OR http://www.powells.com/calendar.html ================================================ Conference News ================================================ ***O'Reilly Open Source Convention User Group Discount User Group use code DSUG when you register, and you'll get 20% off the conference price. To register, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/ord_os04 O'Reilly Open Source Convention Portland Marriott Downtown Portland, OR July 26-30, 2004 http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ ================================================ News From O'Reilly & Beyond ================================================ --------------------- General News --------------------- ***The Ideal Digital Photographer's Workflow, Part 5 Ken Milburn, author of "Digital Photography: Expert Techniques," offers the latest installment in his series on creating ideal (and least destructive) workflows for digital photography. This week, he offers step-by-step routines for performing the three stages of sharpening that are almost always necessary: rescue, effect, and output. And he offers advice on a few things you should do before you even start sharpening your images. http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/javascript/2004/07/20/digital_photography.html ***SafariU: Create, Customize, and Share Teaching Material Looking for a way to truly customize your course textbook and offer students exactly the material you choose to teach, while saving them a good bit of money? Become a SafariU beta tester and check out the new web-based publishing platform from O'Reilly that allows you to create custom textbooks and online syllabi. http://academic.oreilly.com/safariu-more.csp --------------------- Open Source --------------------- ***The Great Linux Desktop Migration Contest If you're considering, or you have already embarked upon, a Linux desktop migration, here's your chance to help guide and inspire others and be eligible to win an all-expense-paid trip to Barcelona, Spain. Novell and O'Reilly Media have joined forces to present this contest and are looking for entries that describe the benefits realized from a desktop migration, a phased migration plan, or the most practical tips for migrating to Linux. The contest deadline is August 9. http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/linux/contest/ ***Why PHP 5 Rocks! Adam Trachtenberg provides a quick tour around PHP 5, highlighting seven of his favorite new features. These features (including better support for OOP, bundled SQLite, iterators, and more cool stuff) will allow your PHP 5 code to be more concise, more elegant, and more flexible than ever. Adam is the author of the upcoming "Upgrading to PHP 5." http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/php/2004/07/15/UpgradePHP5.html --------------------- Mac --------------------- ***How to Fall in Love with Your iSight, Again Snaggy and Nitrozac are back to show you how to fall in love with your iSight, again, and provide a few chuckles along the way. Consider them your personal tech-therapists, willing to help bring you and your gorgeous hardware back together, with advice on apps and add-ons that will enhance your iSight relationship. If you like the way S and N weave humor and tech talk, check out their book, "The Best of The Joy of Tech." http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/07/20/iSightLove.html ***12 Steps to Improving Your Mac's Performance Keeping your Mac happy and performing as it did the day you brought it home takes a bit of degunking. Joli Ballew offers 12 steps to improving your Mac's performance that will have it humming along in no time. For more in-depth details on why the Mac slowdown occurs and what you can do about it, check out Joli's new book, "Degunking Your Mac." http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/07/16/DegunkYourMac.html ***Macworld Boston 2004: Brains Over Beauty In the late 1700s, Boston culture facilitated debate by some of the greatest American minds. Now in 2004, it's once again the home for the Mac elite on the East Coast. Derrick Story photographs and comments on the character of this year's Macworld Boston. http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/07/14/macworld.html --------------------- Windows --------------------- ***Windows Server Hacks: Restoring Shadow Copies Using the Command Line Shadow copies is a new feature of Windows Server 2003 that automatically creates point-in-time copies or snapshots of files in shared folders. Mitch Tulloch, author of "Windows Server Hacks," shows you the easiest way to restore them. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/07/20/shadow_copies.html ***Understanding WinFX in Longhorn Longhorn is still in pre-beta, but it's time to get ready for developing apps for it. Wei-Meng Lee, author of "Windows XP Unwired," gives a rundown about the APIs that developers will use to write the next generation of Windows applications. http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/07/13/winfx.html --------------------- Java --------------------- ***Better, Faster, Lighter Programming in .NET and Java In "Better, Faster, Lighter Java," authors Bruce Tate and Justin Gehtland lay out five basic principles to combat the "bloat" that has built up over time in modern Java programming. In this article, Justin shows how programmers developing .NET apps can apply the same principles, and along the way, cultivate still more ideas that make programming simpler and fun again. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/07/14/BFLJava.html ***Cooking with Eclipse In these sample recipes from O'Reilly's "Eclipse Cookbook" learn how to create a custom perspective in Eclipse, and how to speed up the JDT Editor. http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/excerpt/eclipseckbk_chap1/index.html --------------------- .NET --------------------- *** Writing Cross-Platform Mobile Applications Using Crossfire If you are a Microsoft developer familiar with the .NET Framework, you generally have two options if you want to write mobile applications. For mobile handsets, you can develop mobile web applications using the ASP.NET Mobile controls. For standalone applications, you can use the .NET Compact Framework. However, using the .NET Compact Framework you can only target Pocket PC devices. And that essentially means that you are out of luck when it comes to developing for competing devices such as Palm and Symbian Smartphones. In this article, Wei-Meng Lee introduces you to a new open source project known as Crossfire that promises to close the gap. http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/07/12/crossfire.html ================================================ News From Your Peers ================================================ ***How to Write a Book Review by the Melbourne PHP User Group http://melbourne.ug.php.net/content/view/63/59/ Thanks to Chris Burgess for sharing this. You can find this URL along with other tips and tricks on the O'Reilly UG wiki: http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/lpt?HomePage END From lists Fri Jul 23 05:57:02 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:57:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing Message-ID: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was curious what advantage this would have over running a single session to a host and running screen on the host. Does anyone have an opinion? Michael From jfreeman Fri Jul 23 14:44:20 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] gosh am I dumb Message-ID: So... I was busy starting to get to know our new FreeBSD box. It's a beaut from ion computing. It has 4 big drives and a nice RAID card and all... I was using sysinstall to do a system upgrade ... i chose the minimal option... it started up just fine.. I *think* it copied /etc to /?/?/tmp/etc or something like that while it did its thing. meanwhile, in another console i was fishing around looking at stuff... for some retarded reason I ran 'dhclient'... this stopped the big system upgrade process.. now my machine is in a completely unstable state.. I cannot even boot into single user mode and get to a prompt. I have the drivers for the RAID card and I have my 5.2 install CDs. But I don't think i have the skill to pull off a clean re-install. Ordinarily, I'd be posting a request for assistance on the jobs part of the nycbug website but.. this is kind of an emergency.. If ANYONE has free time and would like to make a little $ by helping me out.. please call me up, starting around 2:50pm at 718 817 8533... TIA J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Information Technology New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From trish Fri Jul 23 15:08:10 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] gosh am I dumb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040723150532.B71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > > If ANYONE has free time and would like to make a little $ by helping me > out.. please call me up, starting around 2:50pm at 718 817 8533... > > > TIA > > J. > OK everyone I called Josh and he seems to be mucking his way through a re-install pretty well, so he doesn't need any help (right now) He has my number just in case. -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From jfreeman Fri Jul 23 16:09:04 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:09:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] gosh am I dumb In-Reply-To: <20040723150532.B71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: Thanks Trish, Hi everyone... I managed to get the machine to the point where I ran fsck and then rebooted and everything seemed 'ok'.... I'll go to the jobs board and post something meaningful now... J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Information Technology New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. > From: Trish Lynch > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:08:10 -0400 (EDT) > To: "Joshua S. Freeman" > Cc: "NYCBUG discussion list > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] gosh am I dumb > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > >> >> If ANYONE has free time and would like to make a little $ by helping me >> out.. please call me up, starting around 2:50pm at 718 817 8533... >> >> >> TIA >> >> J. >> > > > OK everyone I called Josh and he seems to be mucking his way through a > re-install pretty well, so he doesn't need any help (right now) > > He has my number just in case. > > -Trish > > > > > -- > Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net > Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org > EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet > Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 > From jesse Sun Jul 25 02:33:46 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:33:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: > I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was > curious what advantage this would have over running a single session > to a host and running screen on the host. > > Does anyone have an opinion? > Michael > I'd have to assume that running virtual screens on the host would be most efficient in all aspects of the case. From quecojones Sun Jul 25 04:25:19 2004 From: quecojones (Queco Jones) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:25:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Root certificates on OS X... Message-ID: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> A friend recently told me about http://cacert.org and said I should download/install the root certificate. I went to the site and it says that it works with IE. So I started p IE and tried it, but I got a pop up asking me for a passprase or something and clicked the cancel button. I talked to my friend and later, when I tried it again, I got a pop saying that the certificate wasn't valid. Now I'm wondering if I did something to mess it all up... The reason I was interested in it is because when I get an email from my friend, Mail.app displays a message saying that it's "unable to verify message signature." I have GPG and the GPGMail plug-in installed, but my friend says that it won't work until I get the root certificate installed. My question is, can anybody point me to documentation that explains just how to go about doing this? I also wonder if it can't be done with Safari instead of IE... Any suggestions? qj -- Conrado A. Bermudez (aka Queco Jones) - http://quecojones.net From scottro Sun Jul 25 04:42:47 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:42:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Root certificates on OS X... In-Reply-To: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> References: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040725084247.GA27460@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sun, Jul 25, 2004 at 04:25:19AM -0400, Queco Jones wrote: > > The reason I was interested in it is because when I get an email from > my friend, Mail.app displays a message saying that it's "unable to > verify message signature." > > I have GPG and the GPGMail plug-in installed, but my friend says that > it won't work until I get the root certificate installed. My question > is, can anybody point me to documentation that explains just how to go > about doing this? Don't know about Mac mail, but in mutt, at least, it simply means you haven't downloaded their key, and given it a trust level. In other words, you see in my sig that gpg --recv-keys thingie. If you type what I have written there, my key will be downloaded. It's been awhile, so I don't remember off the top of my head if it'll then be verifiable--you might have to do gpg edit-key scott and choose a trust level. So, unless Mac's mail is quite different, your friend may be mistaken or there might be some sort of misunderstanding. The whole good signature thing is from your own $HOME/.gnupg file. Hope this helps, unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding your question. :) [1] [1] Which I didn't actually answer--I answered the implied question of verifying sigs. :) -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Giles: Might I have a word? Buffy: Have a sentence even. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040725/a640a5b1/attachment.bin From bob Sun Jul 25 05:23:54 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:23:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Root certificates on OS X... In-Reply-To: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> References: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <59AF662C-DE1C-11D8-999C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 25, 2004, at 4:25 AM, Queco Jones wrote: > A friend recently told me about http://cacert.org and said I should > download/install the root certificate. I went to the site and it says > that it works with IE. So I started p IE and tried it, but I got a > pop up asking me for a passprase or something and clicked the cancel > button. I talked to my friend and later, when I tried it again, I got > a pop saying that the certificate wasn't valid. Now I'm wondering if > I did something to mess it all up... Don't use IE on the Mac. Ever. It's not relevant anyways. > The reason I was interested in it is because when I get an email from > my friend, Mail.app displays a message saying that it's "unable to > verify message signature." > > I have GPG and the GPGMail plug-in installed, but my friend says that > it won't work until I get the root certificate installed. My question > is, can anybody point me to documentation that explains just how to go > about doing this? S/MIME, the specification used by CACert, Thawte, etc. and supported in stock configurations of popular email clients by such as Mail.app, is definitely *NOT* GPG. Completely different stuff. GPG is for rings of trust, S/MIME is more centralized. Personally I don't think that GPG really has a chance because S/MIME is already so widely adopted, and PGP/GPG is well, not. Probably because PGP is proprietary software and GPG is GPL, where S/MIME takes advantage of the machinery that's already in OpenSSL and other frameworks that people were already using for other things (like encrypted IMAP, POP3, SMTP, HTTP) so licensing isn't really an issue. > I also wonder if it can't be done with Safari instead of IE... It actually has nothing to do with the browser, *especially* if you are using it for Mail! :) OS X has a global registry for certificates in a keychain called X509Anchors. Download the "certificate for most browsers" and double click it. Safari will download it as a .crt file, double-click the file from Finder and Keychain will ask you where to import it to. You want to import it to the X509Anchors keychain. Though the registry is global and is available by public API, it's mostly just Apple apps that take advantage of it (Safari and Mail being the big ones). Stuff from the Mozilla project don't currently leverage Apple's APIs to my knowledge, for example. Note that I may have done something a long time ago that makes X509Anchors show up in the list, and I'm running a beta version of OS X on this laptop, so the instructions may very well differ slightly. I also have no recollection of how OS X 10.2 handled such things, if you happen to be that unfortunate. If my instructions aren't good enough for whatever reason, google is your friend. X509Anchors, "OS X ", Keychain, etc. are all pretty good keywords. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040725/3a531f8d/attachment.bin From trish Sun Jul 25 11:20:39 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Root certificates on OS X... In-Reply-To: <59AF662C-DE1C-11D8-999C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> <59AF662C-DE1C-11D8-999C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <20040725111311.K71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Bob Ippolito wrote: > S/MIME, the specification used by CACert, Thawte, etc. and supported in > stock configurations of popular email clients by such as Mail.app, is > definitely *NOT* GPG. Completely different stuff. GPG is for rings of > trust, S/MIME is more centralized. Personally I don't think that GPG > really has a chance because S/MIME is already so widely adopted, and > PGP/GPG is well, not. Probably because PGP is proprietary software and > GPG is GPL, where S/MIME takes advantage of the machinery that's > already in OpenSSL and other frameworks that people were already using > for other things (like encrypted IMAP, POP3, SMTP, HTTP) so licensing > isn't really an issue. > I would actually have to disagree, IMO, S/MIME is unwieldy and a pain in the arse, while PGP/GPG and all its tools for us unix folks have been a round a long time. Its also not hard to get Outlook, Pegasus, or Eudora users to use PGP. I see more people signing thier email with PGP/GPG than anything else. I get on average about 10 out of every hundred emails with a verifiable OpenPGP signature on it. I don't see that with S/MIME at all. S/MIME was widely adopted in the clients, and rarely used because of the time it takes to get a cert signed by VeriSign and/or Thawte. With PGP, I create a key and have others verify in a ring of trust... I have a pretty reasonable assumption that all the keys I have imported are verified to be the user by other people who have also been verified, by people that I have usually met in person and know well. Its much easier for me to use OpenPGP than S/MIME. - -Trish - -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBA8/NJrIdYm/B/xYRAlzkAKCcYI8hpDcuKjtDc0QNIG5OHu1TfwCfVMty 6pMDyGGR4bDpxYLVJg0kmlE= =4q28 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pete Sun Jul 25 11:49:52 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:49:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: <44B3A576-DE52-11D8-B93C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On Jul 25, 2004, at 2:33 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: > >> I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was >> curious what advantage this would have over running a single session >> to a host and running screen on the host. >> >> Does anyone have an opinion? >> Michael >> hey michael can you post the link to that article. i use screen alot but get frustrated with some aspects of it (key bindings, me being to lazy to customize said key bindings...). cheers, pete From lists Sun Jul 25 12:07:50 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:07:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <44B3A576-DE52-11D8-B93C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <44B3A576-DE52-11D8-B93C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <4103DAD6.2050301@genoverly.net> on 20040725 11:49 AM pete wright had written... > > On Jul 25, 2004, at 2:33 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > >> >> On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: >> >>> I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was >>> curious what advantage this would have over running a single session >>> to a host and running screen on the host. >>> >>> Does anyone have an opinion? >>> Michael >>> > hey michael can you post the link to that article. i use screen alot > but get frustrated with some aspects of it (key bindings, me being to > lazy to customize said key bindings...). > > cheers, > pete > http://undeadly.org .it is on the front page: Ask undeadly: SSH client session multiplexing From pete Sun Jul 25 12:09:50 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:09:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <4103DAD6.2050301@genoverly.net> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <44B3A576-DE52-11D8-B93C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <4103DAD6.2050301@genoverly.net> Message-ID: <0EBE536C-DE55-11D8-B93C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On Jul 25, 2004, at 12:07 PM, michael wrote: > on 20040725 11:49 AM pete wright had written... > >> On Jul 25, 2004, at 2:33 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: >>> >>> On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: >>> >>>> I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was >>>> curious what advantage this would have over running a single >>>> session to a host and running screen on the host. >>>> >>>> Does anyone have an opinion? >>>> Michael >>>> >> hey michael can you post the link to that article. i use screen alot >> but get frustrated with some aspects of it (key bindings, me being to >> lazy to customize said key bindings...). >> cheers, >> pete > > http://undeadly.org > > .it is on the front page: > Ask undeadly: SSH client session multiplexing > lol thx! who woulda' thought.. -p From bob Sun Jul 25 12:33:35 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:33:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Root certificates on OS X... In-Reply-To: <20040725111311.K71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> References: <102700db04072501257fd96edc@mail.gmail.com> <59AF662C-DE1C-11D8-999C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <20040725111311.K71786@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: <5FCC58A2-DE58-11D8-999C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Trish Lynch wrote: > On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> S/MIME, the specification used by CACert, Thawte, etc. and supported >> in >> stock configurations of popular email clients by such as Mail.app, is >> definitely *NOT* GPG. Completely different stuff. GPG is for rings >> of >> trust, S/MIME is more centralized. Personally I don't think that GPG >> really has a chance because S/MIME is already so widely adopted, and >> PGP/GPG is well, not. Probably because PGP is proprietary software >> and >> GPG is GPL, where S/MIME takes advantage of the machinery that's >> already in OpenSSL and other frameworks that people were already using >> for other things (like encrypted IMAP, POP3, SMTP, HTTP) so licensing >> isn't really an issue. >> > > I would actually have to disagree, IMO, S/MIME is unwieldy and a pain > in > the arse, while PGP/GPG and all its tools for us unix folks have been a > round a long time. Its also not hard to get Outlook, Pegasus, or Eudora > users to use PGP. I've had much better luck getting people with clients like those on S/MIME than PGP. > I see more people signing thier email with PGP/GPG than anything else. > I > get on average about 10 out of every hundred emails with a verifiable > OpenPGP signature on it. I don't see that with S/MIME at all. I see more S/MIME than PGP/GPG. Different people, I guess. My mails are signed with S/MIME w/ a CAcert certificate, though I did use Thawte for a while. > S/MIME was widely adopted in the clients, and rarely used because of > the > time it takes to get a cert signed by VeriSign and/or Thawte. With > PGP, I > create a key and have others verify in a ring of trust... I have a > pretty > reasonable assumption that all the keys I have imported are verified > to be > the user by other people who have also been verified, by people that I > have usually met in person and know well. Its much easier for me to use > OpenPGP than S/MIME. Getting a cert from Thawte or CAcert is painless, it just doesn't have your name on it until you do the web of trust thing and get verified by a real person. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040725/4a64438f/attachment.bin From pete Sun Jul 25 13:40:36 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:40:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Hacks review Message-ID: Hey all, First draft of my BSD Hacks review is up at: http://www.nomadlogic.org/~pete/hacks_review.html quick and short, which may not be a bad thing... -pete From george Sun Jul 25 17:37:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:37:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] test Message-ID: From okan Sun Jul 25 19:16:46 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:16:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> On Sun 2004.07.25 at 02:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: > On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: > > >I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was > >curious what advantage this would have over running a single session > >to a host and running screen on the host. > > > >Does anyone have an opinion? > >Michael > > > > I'd have to assume that running virtual screens on the host would be > most efficient in all aspects of the case. ssh multiplexing and virtual screens are two different things. you all know what virtual screens are using screen and window, but ssh multiplexing allows one to, say, open up one control session to your server then "piggy back" the rest of them over that channel - the advantage is that one can do anything else over that same channel: tunneling, more ttys, X forwarding, rsync, cvs, whatever leveraging that one channel - net gain is performance. basically, it speeds up all my actions to one server. try it, you'll love it ;) okan -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From okan Sun Jul 25 19:19:32 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:19:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Hacks review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040725231932.GB32033@yinaska.pair.com> On Sun 2004.07.25 at 13:40 -0400, pete wright wrote: > Hey all, > First draft of my BSD Hacks review is up at: > http://www.nomadlogic.org/~pete/hacks_review.html > > quick and short, which may not be a bad thing... nice. -i'm curious about #10 - unison and enviroments....i tend to generate my .profile with m4 for each arch, and yet it still has tons of case statements in there... anyone care to describe the hack, or i suppose i should go out and buy the book and support the cause... > -pete > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From pete Sun Jul 25 20:58:13 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:58:13 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Hacks review In-Reply-To: <20040725231932.GB32033@yinaska.pair.com> References: <20040725231932.GB32033@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <41045725.4030001@nomadlogic.org> Okan Demirmen wrote: >On Sun 2004.07.25 at 13:40 -0400, pete wright wrote: > > >>Hey all, >> First draft of my BSD Hacks review is up at: >>http://www.nomadlogic.org/~pete/hacks_review.html >> >>quick and short, which may not be a bad thing... >> >> > >nice. -i'm curious about #10 - unison and enviroments....i tend to >generate my .profile with m4 for each arch, and yet it still has >tons of case statements in there... > >anyone care to describe the hack, or i suppose i should go out and >buy the book and support the cause... > > > > heh,now your on the trolly ;) the app is called unison, it's in your ports -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Sun Jul 25 20:59:28 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:59:28 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> Okan Demirmen wrote: >On Sun 2004.07.25 at 02:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > >>On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: >> >> >> >>>I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was >>>curious what advantage this would have over running a single session >>>to a host and running screen on the host. >>> >>>Does anyone have an opinion? >>>Michael >>> >>> >>> >>I'd have to assume that running virtual screens on the host would be >>most efficient in all aspects of the case. >> >> > >ssh multiplexing and virtual screens are two different things. you >all know what virtual screens are using screen and window, but ssh >multiplexing allows one to, say, open up one control session to >your server then "piggy back" the rest of them over that channel - >the advantage is that one can do anything else over that same >channel: tunneling, more ttys, X forwarding, rsync, cvs, whatever >leveraging that one channel - net gain is performance. basically, >it speeds up all my actions to one server. try it, you'll love it ;) > > > yea, agreed. but michael was talking about "screen" a gnu utility that allows you to run a console...have it detached, reattach at another location etc... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From hans Sun Jul 25 20:13:08 2004 From: hans (Hans Zaunere) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:13:08 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Python SIG; NYPHP Meeting this Tuesday Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870334B38E@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Python SIG at New York PHP -------------------------- Recently, some members of the New York open source community have shown interest in having a Python user group in the area. Since Python is part of the LAMP stack, we've created a Python SIG at New York PHP. http://nyphp.org/content/mailinglist/mlist.php While not a full user group, it's a start, and can serve as a common discussion place for Python developers. Those who are interested are encouraged to join and discuss technical and community topics. Also, anyone is welcome to contact me to get involved in organizing the SIG and events. New York PHP will help however we can to support Python programmers. NYPHP July Meeting ------------------ When: July 27th, 2004 at 6:30pm *sharp* Where: (new location) IBM, 590 Madison Avenue, Room 306 (3rd Floor) Post-Meeting: Outback Steakhouse, 919 3rd Avenue at 56th Street IMPORTANT: All attendees MUST RSVP by 3:00pm on July 26th. IBM Security will not let you in the building if your name isn't listed. RSVP online at http://nyphp.org/rsvp.php Details: http://nyphp.org This July, join New York PHP's own David Mintz at our new IBM location for an exciting follow-up to May's HTML_QuickForm by David Sklar. David M. will expand on May's meeting and take us through using HTML_QuickForm with the Smarty template engine. Using HTML_QuickForm with Smarty HTML_QuickForm is a PEAR package providing powerful and elegant functionality for building and validating HTML forms. Its default form renderer, however, is only adequate for the simplest of applications and customizing its output, though possible, is awkward and tends to undermine the goal of separating logic from presentation. Smarty is a popular template engine noted for its flexibility and efficiency, and HTML_QuickForm supports integration with this and other template engines. In this presentation we quickly review the use of both tools, and then examine some techniques for getting them to play nicely together. David Mintz is a self-proclaimed wannabe geek who works as a Spanish-English staff interpreter for the federal court in downtown Manhattan. Join David and the New York PHP crew and see how the powerful HTML_QuickForm and elegant Smarty engine can be combined for engineering the perfect frontend. IBM, our latest sponsor, has provided a great room with seating for plenty. Come prepared with a business card to enter drawings for book and other prizes. When: July 27th, 2004 at 6:30pm sharp Where: (new location) IBM, 590 Madison Avenue, Room 306 (3rd Floor) Post-Meeting: Outback Steakhouse, 919 3rd Avenue at 56th Street Join us after the meeting for good food and discussion! As always this meeting is free and open to the public. Be sure to RSVP online at http://nyphp.org/rsvp.php IMPORTANT: All attendees MUST RSVP by 3:00pm on July 26th. IBM Security will not let you in the building if your name isn't listed. RSVP online at http://nyphp.org/rsvp.php --- Hans Zaunere President New York PHP http://nyphp.org From okan Sun Jul 25 20:36:42 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:36:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040726003642.GA48892@yinaska.pair.com> On Sun 2004.07.25 at 19:59 -0500, Pete Wright wrote: > Okan Demirmen wrote: > > >On Sun 2004.07.25 at 02:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > > > > >>On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was > >>>curious what advantage this would have over running a single session > >>>to a host and running screen on the host. > >>> > >>>Does anyone have an opinion? > >>>Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I'd have to assume that running virtual screens on the host would be > >>most efficient in all aspects of the case. > >> > >> > > > >ssh multiplexing and virtual screens are two different things. you > >all know what virtual screens are using screen and window, but ssh > >multiplexing allows one to, say, open up one control session to > >your server then "piggy back" the rest of them over that channel - > >the advantage is that one can do anything else over that same > >channel: tunneling, more ttys, X forwarding, rsync, cvs, whatever > >leveraging that one channel - net gain is performance. basically, > >it speeds up all my actions to one server. try it, you'll love it ;) > > > > > > > yea, agreed. but michael was talking about "screen" a gnu utility that > allows you to run a console...have it detached, reattach at another > location etc... > -p right, i got that...i guess my mail didn't make that clear - i was just trying to show that running "screen" or "window" is different than ssh multiplexing...different tools for separate actions...i don't think multiplexing and screen really can be compared... screen is great for, say, irc'ing and ssh multiplexing works well when you develop/work on a remote box. $0.02 -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From pete Sun Jul 25 21:53:59 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:53:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <20040726003642.GA48892@yinaska.pair.com> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> <20040726003642.GA48892@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 8:36 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Sun 2004.07.25 at 19:59 -0500, Pete Wright wrote: >> Okan Demirmen wrote: >> >>> On Sun 2004.07.25 at 02:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was >>>>> curious what advantage this would have over running a single >>>>> session >>>>> to a host and running screen on the host. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have an opinion? >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I'd have to assume that running virtual screens on the host would be >>>> most efficient in all aspects of the case. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ssh multiplexing and virtual screens are two different things. you >>> all know what virtual screens are using screen and window, but ssh >>> multiplexing allows one to, say, open up one control session to >>> your server then "piggy back" the rest of them over that channel - >>> the advantage is that one can do anything else over that same >>> channel: tunneling, more ttys, X forwarding, rsync, cvs, whatever >>> leveraging that one channel - net gain is performance. basically, >>> it speeds up all my actions to one server. try it, you'll love it ;) >>> >>> >>> >> yea, agreed. but michael was talking about "screen" a gnu utility >> that >> allows you to run a console...have it detached, reattach at another >> location etc... >> -p > > right, i got that...i guess my mail didn't make that clear - i was > just trying to show that running "screen" or "window" is different > than ssh multiplexing...different tools for separate actions...i > don't think multiplexing and screen really can be compared... screen > is great for, say, irc'ing and ssh multiplexing works well when you > develop/work on a remote box. > heh...maybe i can't read :) sorry 'bout that. i think i'm a bit foggy on how screen and multiplexing differ. i guess it's one of those things i'll just have to do eh? so how do you config your sshd and ssh conf's to utilize multiplexing, i'm intrigued. i'll look it up, but are there any hints to get one started? -p From okan Sun Jul 25 23:21:20 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:21:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> <20040726003642.GA48892@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040726032120.GA74860@yinaska.pair.com> On Sun 2004.07.25 at 21:53 -0400, pete wright wrote: > heh...maybe i can't read :) sorry 'bout that. i think i'm a bit foggy > on how screen and multiplexing differ. i guess it's one of those > things i'll just have to do eh? so how do you config your sshd and ssh > conf's to utilize multiplexing, i'm intrigued. i'll look it up, but > are there any hints to get one started? well, while we wait on the list server to spit out our mails...here is an example ~/.ssh/config that kinda shows what one can do...and check your tcp states while you're at it - all over one session. # create multiplexed session and a local forward Host myhost HostName myhost.example.com ControlMaster yes ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl LocalForward 2201 10.1.1.1:22 # ssh to myhost over session Host myh ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl # ssh to myhost with X forwarding over the same session Host m-X ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl ForwardX11 yes # ssh to local forward via session Host m-2201 ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl HostName localhost Port 2201 # ssh and create a new local forward Host m-2202 ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl LocalForward 2202 10.1.1.2:22 -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From bob Mon Jul 26 00:22:10 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:22:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Python SIG; NYPHP Meeting this Tuesday In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870334B38E@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870334B38E@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Message-ID: <5D01B722-DEBB-11D8-B33B-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Jul 25, 2004, at 8:13 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: > Python SIG at New York PHP > -------------------------- > > Recently, some members of the New York open source community have shown > interest in having a Python user group in the area. > > Since Python is part of the LAMP stack, we've created a Python SIG at > New York PHP. Is this SIG focused on Python in the context of the LAMP stack, Python in the context of web applications in general (the most interesting web frameworks for Python are missing at least the "A", but quite possibly the "M" as well), or just anything Python? -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040726/5d4bb689/attachment.bin From hans Mon Jul 26 08:45:14 2004 From: hans (Hans Zaunere) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:45:14 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Python SIG; NYPHP Meeting this Tuesday Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F87034416E0@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> > > Python SIG at New York PHP > > -------------------------- > > > > Recently, some members of the New York open source community have shown > > interest in having a Python user group in the area. > > > > Since Python is part of the LAMP stack, we've created a Python SIG at > > New York PHP. > > Is this SIG focused on Python in the context of the LAMP stack, Python > in the context of web applications in general (the most interesting web > frameworks for Python are missing at least the "A", but quite possibly > the "M" as well), or just anything Python? Anything Python... H From louis Mon Jul 26 08:48:56 2004 From: louis (Louis Bertrand) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Python SIG; NYPHP Meeting this Tuesday In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F87034416E0@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F87034416E0@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Hans Zaunere wrote: > > > > Python SIG at New York PHP > > > -------------------------- > > > > > > Recently, some members of the New York open source community have > shown > > > interest in having a Python user group in the area. > > > > > > Since Python is part of the LAMP stack, we've created a Python SIG > at > > > New York PHP. > > > > Is this SIG focused on Python in the context of the LAMP stack, Python > > in the context of web applications in general (the most interesting > web > > frameworks for Python are missing at least the "A", but quite possibly > > the "M" as well), or just anything Python? > > Anything Python... > > One interpretation of LAMP is Linux-Apache-Middleware-PostgreSQL Python easily belongs in the middleware category. Ciao --Louis From hanulec Mon Jul 26 10:11:19 2004 From: hanulec (Michael Hanulec) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? Message-ID: there was tons of talk about them in June. has anyone received theirs yet? anyone onlist done anything cool w/ them yet? -- hanulec at hanulec.com cell: 858.518.2647 && 516.410.4478 https://secure.hanulec.com EFnet irc && aol im: hanulec From pete Mon Jul 26 11:22:18 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:22:18 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410521AA.8030803@nomadlogic.org> Michael Hanulec wrote: > > there was tons of talk about them in June. has anyone received theirs > yet? anyone onlist done anything cool w/ them yet? > yea we got them in, and they rock! i'm running OBSD/pf on it right now. it was pretty fun getting the box up and running. had to do a pxe-boot/tftp/nfs install. that was pretty great. aside from that it's just doing boring pf/nat type stuff now...i think we have a meeting planned in the future around these guys. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jesse Mon Jul 26 11:43:28 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:43:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <8A1A9E22-DF1A-11D8-BA5F-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On Jul 25, 2004, at 7:16 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Sun 2004.07.25 at 02:33 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: >> On Jul 23, 2004, at 5:57 AM, michael wrote: >> >>> I was reading about session multiplexing on undeadly.org and was >>> curious what advantage this would have over running a single session >>> to a host and running screen on the host. >>> >>> Does anyone have an opinion? >>> Michael >>> >> >> I'd have to assume that running virtual screens on the host would be >> most efficient in all aspects of the case. > > ssh multiplexing and virtual screens are two different things. you > all know what virtual screens are using screen and window, but ssh > multiplexing allows one to, say, open up one control session to > your server then "piggy back" the rest of them over that channel - > the advantage is that one can do anything else over that same > channel: tunneling, more ttys, X forwarding, rsync, cvs, whatever > leveraging that one channel - net gain is performance. basically, > it speeds up all my actions to one server. try it, you'll love it ;) > > okan > > -- > Okan Demirmen > PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 > PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 ah... like how I'm sending this email. ok. I thought it was like to get more than one console. From jesse Mon Jul 26 11:58:40 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:58:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: <20040726032120.GA74860@yinaska.pair.com> References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> <20040726003642.GA48892@yinaska.pair.com> <20040726032120.GA74860@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Sun 2004.07.25 at 21:53 -0400, pete wright wrote: >> heh...maybe i can't read :) sorry 'bout that. i think i'm a bit >> foggy >> on how screen and multiplexing differ. i guess it's one of those >> things i'll just have to do eh? so how do you config your sshd and >> ssh >> conf's to utilize multiplexing, i'm intrigued. i'll look it up, but >> are there any hints to get one started? > > well, while we wait on the list server to spit out our mails...here is > an > example ~/.ssh/config that kinda shows what one can do...and check your > tcp states while you're at it - all over one session. > > # create multiplexed session and a local forward > Host myhost > HostName myhost.example.com > ControlMaster yes > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > LocalForward 2201 10.1.1.1:22 > > # ssh to myhost over session > Host myh > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > > # ssh to myhost with X forwarding over the same session > Host m-X > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > ForwardX11 yes > > # ssh to local forward via session > Host m-2201 > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > HostName localhost > Port 2201 > > # ssh and create a new local forward > Host m-2202 > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > LocalForward 2202 10.1.1.2:22 > > > -- > Okan Demirmen > PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 > PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 ad-hoc port forwarding can be done at the 'ssh prompt'. You can get this by sending break-C, or ~C on my computer. So if you do the magic key sequence while a session has been established you get a prompt where you can do: ssh> -L 1000:mail.theholymountain.com:25 ssh> -L 1001:mail.theholymountain.com:143 and point your mail client to localhost:1000 for the SMTP server and same deal for the IMAP server. Though I like Okan's numbering scheme for the local ports. Furthermore, I wouldn't have to type all of this crap in every time. I'm glad to have seen your example otherwise I would have blown it off. This is a real time saver. From jfreeman Mon Jul 26 14:35:59 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:35:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Serial ATA and stable 4.10 Message-ID: Does anyone know off hand if Serial ATA and FreeBSD stable 4.10 play nice together? J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Information Technology New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From george Mon Jul 26 14:38:56 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:38:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Serial ATA and stable 4.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D7C143E-DF33-11D8-BBEE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 26, 2004, at 2:35 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > Does anyone know off hand if Serial ATA and FreeBSD stable 4.10 play > nice > together? > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html From pete Mon Jul 26 15:42:58 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:42:58 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Serial ATA and stable 4.10 In-Reply-To: <0D7C143E-DF33-11D8-BBEE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <0D7C143E-DF33-11D8-BBEE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <41055EC2.9000306@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 26, 2004, at 2:35 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > >> Does anyone know off hand if Serial ATA and FreeBSD stable 4.10 play >> nice >> together? >> > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html > this is also helpfull. http://www.freebsd.org/releases/4.10R/hardware-i386.html i would keep both of these links very close at hand. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Mon Jul 26 22:28:47 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:28:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Python SIG; NYPHP Meeting this Tuesday In-Reply-To: References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F87034416E0@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Message-ID: On Jul 26, 2004, at 8:48 AM, Louis Bertrand wrote: > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Hans Zaunere wrote: > >> >>>> Python SIG at New York PHP >>>> -------------------------- >>>> >>>> Recently, some members of the New York open source community have >> shown >>>> interest in having a Python user group in the area. >>>> >>>> Since Python is part of the LAMP stack, we've created a Python SIG >> at >>>> New York PHP. >>> >>> Is this SIG focused on Python in the context of the LAMP stack, >>> Python >>> in the context of web applications in general (the most interesting >> web >>> frameworks for Python are missing at least the "A", but quite >>> possibly >>> the "M" as well), or just anything Python? >> >> Anything Python... >> > One interpretation of LAMP is Linux-Apache-Middleware-PostgreSQL > Python easily belongs in the middleware category. Even still, Apache isn't always very useful in the context of Python development because many of the web frameworks do the whole protocol stack, which gives you a whole hell of a lot more flexibility. ProxyPass from Apache to Python is still common, because many people have Apache responsible for port 80.. but beyond that, it really just gets in the way. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040726/b5947738/attachment.bin From okan Tue Jul 27 09:23:31 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:23:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] SSH client session multiplexing In-Reply-To: References: <4100E0EE.80003@genoverly.net> <94C33622-DE04-11D8-B83E-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> <20040725231646.GA32033@yinaska.pair.com> <41045770.7080100@nomadlogic.org> <20040726003642.GA48892@yinaska.pair.com> <20040726032120.GA74860@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040727132331.GA62833@yinaska.pair.com> On Mon 2004.07.26 at 11:58 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: > > On Jul 25, 2004, at 11:21 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote: > > > ># create multiplexed session and a local forward > >Host myhost > > HostName myhost.example.com > > ControlMaster yes > > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > > LocalForward 2201 10.1.1.1:22 > > > ># ssh to myhost over session > >Host myh > > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > > > ># ssh to myhost with X forwarding over the same session > >Host m-X > > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > > ForwardX11 yes > > > ># ssh to local forward via session > >Host m-2201 > > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > > HostName localhost > > Port 2201 ^^^ this one doesn't work ^^^ in a hast, i didn't bother reading over the config before i sent it, and while just cleaning out my mailbox, i scanned through and noticed the error in my way ;) the "ssh to local forward via session" example entry doesn't work as it looks like it should...basically, one needs to remove the ControlPath and this will allow one to ssh to the locally forwarded prot, otherwise, if one leaves it in, "ssh m-2201" will connect you directly to myhost over the existing channel....sorry for the confusion. > ># ssh and create a new local forward > >Host m-2202 > > ControlPath ~/.ssh/myhost-ctrl > > LocalForward 2202 10.1.1.2:22 > > > > ad-hoc port forwarding can be done at the 'ssh prompt'. You can get > this by sending break-C, or ~C on my computer. So if you do the magic > key sequence while a session has been established you get a prompt > where you can do: > > ssh> -L 1000:mail.theholymountain.com:25 > ssh> -L 1001:mail.theholymountain.com:143 right, and now you have another way...the nice thing with multiplexing is that once you open the first session, you can add as many forwards as you wish as your day moves along without the burden of additional connections. > and point your mail client to localhost:1000 for the SMTP server and > same deal for the IMAP server. Though I like Okan's numbering scheme > for the local ports. Furthermore, I wouldn't have to type all of this > crap in every time. I'm glad to have seen your example otherwise I > would have blown it off. This is a real time saver. yea, and you know how long i went without ever knowing about .ssh/config? way way too long...that in itself shrunk my shell aliases and shell functions significantly ;) if anyone wants more info, let me know...since the client side of the multiplexing came out, i've converted the majority of my .ssh/config at work to use it, so i only need to make one CONNECT through our proxy. (ssshhh) -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From megan.restuccia Tue Jul 27 10:51:15 2004 From: megan.restuccia (Megan Restuccia) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:51:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question Message-ID: <20040727145115.XEKK26805.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Does anyone in the NY/NJ area, have a datacenter or use a co-location site, that they can recommend someone visit to see a datacenter designed right? Or one that can be visited to point out what not to do? Megan From kit Tue Jul 27 11:59:30 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:59:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question In-Reply-To: <20040727145115.XEKK26805.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> References: <20040727145115.XEKK26805.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Megan: I can recommend NYI for both... http://nyi.net/ I'm not sure if they still have anything at 20 Exchange Place, but their setup there never impressed me. Their new facility is another story, very nice. HTH, -Kit At 10:51 AM -0400 7/27/04, Megan Restuccia wrote: >Does anyone in the NY/NJ area, have a datacenter or use a >co-location site, that they can recommend someone visit to see a >datacenter designed right? Or one that can be visited to point out >what not to do? > >Megan -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From jesse Tue Jul 27 12:18:34 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:18:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question In-Reply-To: References: <20040727145115.XEKK26805.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: <9B889358-DFE8-11D8-A1F0-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> make sure to ask some hard hitting questions in the area of The Big Blackout etc. Ask how many kilowatt hours they have of backup juice. If they can't say, they didn't buy anything.... it's just building power. Ask if you can see their bandwidth stats from their ISPsesses website. ask to look under the floor to see if the cabling sucks ask to look at the modems, muxes or whatever where their feeds come in. Ie, if they say they have 8 redundant connections to teir-1 backbones, then take a look. There needs to be at least 8 pieces of equipment going to 8 lines. If anything is impressive it's expensive. Go for people who know what they are doing, not a white room. On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:59 AM, Kit Halsted wrote: > Hi Megan: > > I can recommend NYI for both... http://nyi.net/ > > I'm not sure if they still have anything at 20 Exchange Place, but > their setup there never impressed me. > > Their new facility is another story, very nice. > > HTH, > -Kit > > At 10:51 AM -0400 7/27/04, Megan Restuccia wrote: >> Does anyone in the NY/NJ area, have a datacenter or use a co-location >> site, that they can recommend someone visit to see a datacenter >> designed right? Or one that can be visited to point out what not to >> do? >> >> Megan > > -- > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin > > "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" > (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius > Renatus > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month From george Tue Jul 27 12:31:48 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:31:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: BSD Hacks book review status Message-ID: <74BDE3D2-DFEA-11D8-B67E-000D9328615E@sddi.net> get ready to defend me from the vicious slashdot trolls. . . ;-) g Begin forwarded message: > From: Tim Lord > Date: July 27, 2004 12:15:42 PM EDT > To: "G.Rosamond" > Subject: Re: BSD Hacks book review status > > Dear George: > > Your review, very lightly edited, is set up to appear later today; the > exact time will depend on the on-duty editor at the time (which could > even be me, it turns out ...) > > Tim > > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:51:37 -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: >> Greetings Timothy. >> >> Was wondering on the status of my BSD Hacks review I submitted a week >> or two ago. . .Any changes I should do? >> >> Or is it just too much good BSD news happening that you don't want to >> wake the trolls? >> >> >> g >> >> > > > -- >>>>> edges are interesting <<<< From nboeger Tue Jul 27 13:09:13 2004 From: nboeger (Nathan Boeger) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:09:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Another BSD book Message-ID: <41068C39.9040307@khmere.com> Hello everyone! I have just finished a book on BSD system programming. It is online and free to all. If anyone is interested please have a look: http://www.khmere.com/freebsd_book/index.html Thanks -nb From george Tue Jul 27 17:41:43 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:41:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question In-Reply-To: <9B889358-DFE8-11D8-A1F0-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> References: <20040727145115.XEKK26805.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> <9B889358-DFE8-11D8-A1F0-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 12:18 PM, Jesse Callaway wrote: > make sure to ask some hard hitting questions in the area of The Big > Blackout etc. Ask how many kilowatt hours they have of backup juice. > If they can't say, they didn't buy anything.... it's just building > power. Ask if you can see their bandwidth stats from their ISPsesses > website. > ask to look under the floor to see if the cabling sucks > ask to look at the modems, muxes or whatever where their feeds come > in. Ie, if they say they have 8 redundant connections to teir-1 > backbones, then take a look. There needs to be at least 8 pieces of > equipment going to 8 lines. > > If anything is impressive it's expensive. Go for people who know what > they are doing, not a white room. > All very relevant issues, Jesse. . . A few of us have visited a number of colo sites around Manhattan & Bk over the past several months. . . Many have been impressive. . .but for brilliant design and attention to details Internap is second to none. . .I highly recommend visiting their facilities in downtown Manhattan and listening to their sales engineer type spiel. Apparently, they were reselling power back to ConEd during either the blackout or 9/11, I can't remember which one. . .That how amazing their generators are. . .and they're not sitting up on the roof either. . .a well-thought out and comprehensive setup. I have been to many many places over the years too, and find something neat and clean about Globix's setup. . .sure, lots of warts, but still an interesting approach considering they are a tier iii isp. . .Although haven't been to the Centre street facility in a few years. . . Also, be sure to meet with Alex at Pilosoft.com. . .He's the patron facility of the user groups in NYC, and truly insightful in discussions on the matter. I've cc'd him if he's not yet on the talk list. . .(which he *should* be already!) g From alex Tue Jul 27 17:17:27 2004 From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > make sure to ask some hard hitting questions in the area of The Big > > Blackout etc. Ask how many kilowatt hours they have of backup juice. > > If they can't say, they didn't buy anything.... it's just building > > power. Ask if you can see their bandwidth stats from their ISPsesses > > website. ask to look under the floor to see if the cabling sucks ask > > to look at the modems, muxes or whatever where their feeds come in. > > Ie, if they say they have 8 redundant connections to teir-1 backbones, > > then take a look. There needs to be at least 8 pieces of equipment > > going to 8 lines. > > > > If anything is impressive it's expensive. Go for people who know what > > they are doing, not a white room. > > All very relevant issues, Jesse. . . > > A few of us have visited a number of colo sites around Manhattan & Bk > over the past several months. . . > > Many have been impressive. . .but for brilliant design and attention to > details Internap is second to none. . .I highly recommend visiting their > facilities in downtown Manhattan and listening to their sales engineer > type spiel. Yep. Internap at 75 broad is *pimp*. The only other site that spent as much money per sqft is Tyco at 32 AoA. Nevertheless, there's a point of diminishing returns, I think. > Apparently, they were reselling power back to ConEd during either the > blackout or 9/11, I can't remember which one. . .That how amazing their > generators are. . .and they're not sitting up on the roof either. . .a > well-thought out and comprehensive setup. I wouldn't trust their claim about reselling power but there's no doubt they were up. During big blackout, everyone who had gensets was up. During 9/11, only Telehouse went down (on 9/13) because their gensets overheated because debris were clogging the heat escape louvers. > I have been to many many places over the years too, and find something > neat and clean about Globix's setup. . .sure, lots of warts, but still > an interesting approach considering they are a tier iii isp. . > .Although haven't been to the Centre street facility in a few years. . Globix is alright. So is Telehouse/25B'way. So is TelX @ 60Hud or MFNX at 111 8th, etc. Frankly - all facilities you'll see in the city will have the required things: generator[s], UPS[s], air conditioning, etc. Question is how flexible they will be working with you when you need something special... > Also, be sure to meet with Alex at Pilosoft.com. . .He's the patron > facility of the user groups in NYC, and truly insightful in discussions > on the matter. I've cc'd him if he's not yet on the talk list. . > .(which he *should* be already!) I am now ;) Come by anytime to 55 Broad St, our facility that was previously owned by EMC. It isn't big, but we've got the works ;) -- Alex Pilosov | DSL, Colocation, Hosting Services President | alex at pilosoft.com (800) 710-7031 Pilosoft, Inc. | http://www.pilosoft.com From mikel.king Tue Jul 27 19:44:00 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:44:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question Message-ID: <20040727234503.24392A85EA@virtu.nyphp.org> Hi Megan, I can pretty much afirm that the top providers are all basically equal. They ALL pack the same risks and no one is beyond cahpter 11/7. I have toured Globix, MFN, Level 3, Quest, and Verio over the past several years. Most of the top notch colo's are actually in 111 8th ave. This is a massive facility stretches from 8th ave to 10th. The building has enough backup genset power to light a small city, and most of the providers have their own battery backups as well. I spent a lot of time in the military working in different datacenters and MFN's setup rivals most of what I've experiened while in the service. I could say more but it's hard to type on the phone...if you have any more questions email me tomorrow... Cheers, mikel Megan Restuccia wrote: __________ >Does anyone in the NY/NJ area, have a datacenter or use a co-location site, that they can recommend someone visit to see a datacenter designed right? Or one that can be visited to point out what not to do? > >Megan > > >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >% Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists >% We meet the first Wednesday of the month From bpalmer Tue Jul 27 21:03:42 2004 From: bpalmer (bpalmer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question In-Reply-To: References: <20040727145115.XEKK26805.out003.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> <9B889358-DFE8-11D8-A1F0-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: I'm going to throw down my vote and give Internap 5 stars, they are a great datacenter with untouchable internet connectivity. I trust my business to them. > > Many have been impressive. . .but for brilliant design and attention to > details Internap is second to none. . .I highly recommend visiting > their facilities in downtown Manhattan and listening to their sales > engineer type spiel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- c: 917-697-8665 h: 201-435-6226 b. palmer, bpalmer at crimelabs.net pgp:crimelabs.net/bpalmer.pgp5 From bpalmer Tue Jul 27 21:05:35 2004 From: bpalmer (bpalmer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Datacenter Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Apparently, they were reselling power back to ConEd during either the > > blackout or 9/11, I can't remember which one. . .That how amazing their > > generators are. . .and they're not sitting up on the roof either. . .a > > well-thought out and comprehensive setup. > I wouldn't trust their claim about reselling power but there's no doubt > they were up. During big blackout, everyone who had gensets was up. During > 9/11, only Telehouse went down (on 9/13) because their gensets overheated > because debris were clogging the heat escape louvers. This is true, they were back feeding to coned. They have enough power for their floor to power the entire building. Inap @ 75broad was without any problems durring 9/11 and the blackout. Contact me off list if anyone needs INAP contacts. - Brandon ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- c: 917-697-8665 h: 201-435-6226 b. palmer, bpalmer at crimelabs.net pgp:crimelabs.net/bpalmer.pgp5 From george Tue Jul 27 23:02:02 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:02:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org Message-ID: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> BCHosting has given administrative control of BSDUserGroups.org to Daemon News, and I'll be maintaining it. . . Spread the word to anyone you know in other user groups. . .it's a good site, and it could work out to be a very current and useful resource. I just spent over an hour updating. . . g From spork Tue Jul 27 23:11:20 2004 From: spork (Charles Sprickman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org In-Reply-To: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040727231010.D3626@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > BCHosting has given administrative control of BSDUserGroups.org to > Daemon News, and I'll be maintaining it. . . Damn! Still no Jersey groups. Anyone here a commuter interested in getting something in your own state? Charles ___ Charles Sprickman NetEng/SysAdmin Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344 > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From george Tue Jul 27 23:18:09 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:18:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org In-Reply-To: <20040727231010.D3626@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> References: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040727231010.D3626@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:11 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> BCHosting has given administrative control of BSDUserGroups.org to >> Daemon News, and I'll be maintaining it. . . > > Damn! Still no Jersey groups. Anyone here a commuter interested in > getting something in your own state? > I know there are a number of people who live in NJ on the list and active in the group. It doesn't have to be anything official. . .just a night a month in a bar or restaurant when you meet up. . . g From tux Tue Jul 27 23:33:47 2004 From: tux (Kevin Reiter) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:33:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org References: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net><20040727231010.D3626@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> Message-ID: <006501c47453$b2b8f570$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> > I know there are a number of people who live in NJ on the list and > active in the group. > > It doesn't have to be anything official. . .just a night a month in a > bar or restaurant when you meet up. . . Some of us not so active as the others, but willing to get together to discuss stuff... -Kev -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040727/f8c98f23/attachment.bin From pastormac Wed Jul 28 05:53:04 2004 From: pastormac (Pastor Mac) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:53:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org In-Reply-To: <006501c47453$b2b8f570$0600a8c0@geekiskahn.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote: >> I know there are a number of people who live in NJ on the list and >> active in the group. >> >> It doesn't have to be anything official. . .just a night a month in a >> bar or restaurant when you meet up. . . > > Some of us not so active as the others, but willing to get together to > discuss stuff... > Toss me into the mix for a Jersey group. The Glen Rock Inn would be a fine place to meet up. Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From pete Wed Jul 28 10:33:20 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:33:20 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org In-Reply-To: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <7FF468C8-E042-11D8-A9AE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <4107B930.3060506@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > BCHosting has given administrative control of BSDUserGroups.org to > Daemon News, and I'll be maintaining it. . . > > Spread the word to anyone you know in other user groups. . .it's a > good site, and it could work out to be a very current and useful > resource. > > I just spent over an hour updating. . . > george that's great! I'm going to LA in week for a con. and was trying to figure out an easy way to locate a user group in the area! cheers, -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Wed Jul 28 11:07:34 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:07:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Another BSD book In-Reply-To: <41068C39.9040307@khmere.com> References: <41068C39.9040307@khmere.com> Message-ID: On Jul 27, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Nathan Boeger wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I have just finished a book on BSD system programming. It is online > and free to all. If anyone is interested please have a look: > > http://www.khmere.com/freebsd_book/index.html > I'm working my way through it now. . .maybe we could serialize it in Daemon News . . .or maybe a publisher would want to make it a pocket guide. . . thoughts? g From pete Wed Jul 28 12:59:41 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:59:41 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Handbook 3rd ed. Message-ID: <4107DB7D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> just noticed this on via the latest FreeBSD status report. http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/handbook3.html Should be interesting, especially the second volume. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Wed Jul 28 12:08:03 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:08:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . Message-ID: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> I don't want to just rebroadcast postings from Daemon News, but this article is particularly relevant. . . http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170 PHK and Robert Watson are two critical FBSD developers. We are considering having a meeting on jails, and the last NYLUG meeting was on UML by Sunny, who's on this list. . . g From nboeger Wed Jul 28 12:24:14 2004 From: nboeger (Nathan Boeger) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:24:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Another BSD book In-Reply-To: References: <41068C39.9040307@khmere.com> Message-ID: <4107D32E.6020900@khmere.com> G. Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 1:09 PM, Nathan Boeger wrote: > >> Hello everyone! >> >> I have just finished a book on BSD system programming. It is online >> and free to all. If anyone is interested please have a look: >> >> http://www.khmere.com/freebsd_book/index.html >> > > I'm working my way through it now. . .maybe we could serialize it in > Daemon News . . .or maybe a publisher would want to make it a pocket > guide. . . > > thoughts? > > g > > > Pocket guide sounds good. However, I would like see if I can get some people to help add/update content. I wanted to add a chapter on kernel modules and drivers but I don't have the time. Also, some content on network programming would be great. Of course we would give proper credit to people who do help out. -nb From sunny-ml Wed Jul 28 12:31:39 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:31:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . In-Reply-To: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200407281231.39949.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 28 July 2004 12:08 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > I don't want to just rebroadcast postings from Daemon News, but this > article is particularly relevant. . . > > http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170 > > PHK and Robert Watson are two critical FBSD developers. > > We are considering having a meeting on jails, and the last NYLUG > meeting was on UML by Sunny, who's on this list. . . For those of you wondering what the Unified Modeling Language has to do with jail(), UML also stands for "User Mode Linux". (Which is a port of linux to itself.) Sunny Dubey From fifi Wed Jul 28 13:38:17 2004 From: fifi (Mike Sawicki) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:38:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . In-Reply-To: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040728173817.GR87092@HAX.ORG> On Wed, Jul 28, 2004 at 12:08:03PM -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: > I don't want to just rebroadcast postings from Daemon News, but this > article is particularly relevant. . . > > http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170 > > PHK and Robert Watson are two critical FBSD developers. > > We are considering having a meeting on jails, and the last NYLUG > meeting was on UML by Sunny, who's on this list. . . > There use of seperating articles to gain ad revenue is impressive. Anyways.. yes, jails are good.. jails are powerful.. and they can make you good $. I can help with some input on this topic if needed. Mike Sawicki (fifi at HAX.ORG) From dan Wed Jul 28 14:45:34 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . In-Reply-To: <20040728173817.GR87092@HAX.ORG> References: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040728173817.GR87092@HAX.ORG> Message-ID: <20040728144455.O61655@xeon.unixathome.org> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Mike Sawicki wrote: > There use of seperating articles to gain ad revenue is impressive. What a good idea! I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to split up the FreeBSD Diary articles now. Thank you for the idea. -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ From george Wed Jul 28 14:48:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:48:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . In-Reply-To: <20040728144455.O61655@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040728173817.GR87092@HAX.ORG> <20040728144455.O61655@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: On Jul 28, 2004, at 2:45 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Mike Sawicki wrote: > >> There use of seperating articles to gain ad revenue is impressive. > > What a good idea! I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to split up the > FreeBSD Diary articles now. > > Thank you for the idea. Great argument for closed source development. . . You should have kept that proprietary mike. . . From klimenta Wed Jul 28 18:05:59 2004 From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:05:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDUserGroups.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41082347.5020604@futurebit.com> >>> bar or restaurant when you meet up. . . >> >> >> Some of us not so active as the others, but willing to get together to >> discuss stuff... >> > > Toss me into the mix for a Jersey group. The Glen Rock Inn would be a > fine place to meet up. > I am "Inn" too. Little Ferry, NJ. From lists Thu Jul 29 07:32:07 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:32:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . In-Reply-To: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040729073207.2e03b862@delinux.abwatley.com> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:08:03 -0400 G.Rosamond wrote: > I don't want to just rebroadcast postings from Daemon News, but this > article is particularly relevant. . . > > http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170 So at the risk of being flamed.. who is jailing what? Do you jail the web server, the mail gateway, name service? Or is it just *jail everything*? Michael -- --- From barry Thu Jul 29 10:39:28 2004 From: barry (Barry Kominik) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:39:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41090C20.2020309@kominik.net> Michael Hanulec wrote: > > there was tons of talk about them in June. has anyone received theirs > yet? anyone onlist done anything cool w/ them yet? > > -- > hanulec at hanulec.com cell: 858.518.2647 && 516.410.4478 > https://secure.hanulec.com EFnet irc && aol im: hanulec > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month I got mine a few months before all that talk. I love it. I use it as a home firewall/web/mail server running openbsd. I installed a 60 gig laptop hard drive. The only problem I have is heat. The system runs at about 60C which I think is too hot, though I haven't seen any errors. I just bought a cheap usb wifi card with the prism3 chipset. I plan on playing around with making a wifi base station. I'm also thinking of swapping out the hard drive for a compact flash. Has anyone ever seen one of these: US Modular 2.2GB compact flash; http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=338550 In the product details it says the media is glass. I'd love to find out more about this as it is cheap, $176. Rgds, Barry From fifi Thu Jul 29 11:23:58 2004 From: fifi (Mike Sawicki) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:23:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] article on Jails. . . In-Reply-To: <20040729073207.2e03b862@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <4DD50D34-E0B0-11D8-896C-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040729073207.2e03b862@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <20040729152358.GU87092@HAX.ORG> On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 07:32:07AM -0400, michael wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:08:03 -0400 > G.Rosamond wrote: > > > I don't want to just rebroadcast postings from Daemon News, but this > > article is particularly relevant. . . > > > > http://www.acmqueue.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=170 > > > So at the risk of being flamed.. who is jailing what? Do you jail the > web server, the mail gateway, name service? Or is it just *jail > everything*? > I use them for high-traffic, Internet-facing servers such as DNS and mail relays. In the case of DNS specifically, you get a whole lot of piece of mind out of running a chroot'ed BIND within a jail. Adding a good kernel securelevel and proper filters to the box helps even more. Mike Sawicki (fifi at HAX.ORG) From jfreeman Thu Jul 29 12:27:42 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] a few little questions Message-ID: I am happy to report that I successfully downloaded 4.10 isos, installed 4.10 without a hitch... ran sysinstall... no problem with the RAID or the Serial ATA installed in the ION Computing box.. I even configured XFree86 correctly though I've not installed anything more exciting than the basic window manager. Here are a couple of questions: 1) where do I set things so that the machine is listening for connections on port 22 (i.e. ssh)? 2) when using sysinstall, a few things failed to install, most notably bacula, PHP and PHPMyAdmin. When things fail to install I'm directed to look at the ..hrm.. should have written it down.. 'error' window? the something window... basicaly, Sysinstall is telling me to look somewhere for more detailed information on why a port is failing to install but I can't figure out where it wants me to look or how to look there. Thanks in advance for any pointers. J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Information Technology New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From jesse Thu Jul 29 13:12:58 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:12:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] a few little questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89CFA6D1-E182-11D8-AC19-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On Jul 29, 2004, at 12:27 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > I am happy to report that I successfully downloaded 4.10 isos, > installed > 4.10 without a hitch... ran sysinstall... no problem with the RAID or > the > Serial ATA installed in the ION Computing box.. > I even configured XFree86 > correctly though I've not installed anything more exciting than the > basic > window manager. > > Here are a couple of questions: > > 1) where do I set things so that the machine is listening for > connections on > port 22 (i.e. ssh)? /etc/rc.conf - to turn the service on at boot make sure you have this line in the file sshd_enable = "YES" If you have the manual pages installed, then run 'man rc.conf' and read up on everyone's favorite config file. I prefer browsing the web for man pages. I do a man -k at the command line and then go to the browser to look for the manual. /etc/ssh/sshd.conf - tweak the port #, key size etc. You probably don't need to edit this, but you should look at it. > > 2) when using sysinstall, a few things failed to install, most notably > bacula, PHP and PHPMyAdmin. Do sysinstall again and choose 'Post-install'. Then try to add the packages again and write it down. > > When things fail to install I'm directed to look at the ..hrm.. should > have > written it down.. 'error' window? the something window... basicaly, > Sysinstall is telling me to look somewhere for more detailed > information on > why a port is failing to install but I can't figure out where it wants > me to > look or how to look there. You can look at a virtual terminal on, I think vtty4, which is reached through shift-F5? Maybe that's the one the colored install screen is on. If this isn't the case, just go down the line holding down shift and trying the function keys. You'll see the error messages. From lists Thu Jul 29 13:06:02 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:06:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] a few little questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040729130602.4e1d533e@delinux.abwatley.com> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:42 -0400 "Joshua S. Freeman" wrote: > I am happy to report that I successfully downloaded 4.10 isos, > installed 4.10 without a hitch... ran sysinstall... no problem with > the RAID or the Serial ATA installed in the ION Computing box.. I even > configured XFree86 correctly though I've not installed anything more > exciting than the basic window manager. > Good for you! Are you new to computers? Is this your first BSD install? > Here are a couple of questions: > > 1) where do I set things so that the machine is listening for > connections on port 22 (i.e. ssh)? You can run systinstall again and select [Configure] then [Networking] and you need to check off [sshd]. Sysinstall is kind-of like windows with bright colors and menu choices. Many people find it helpful to spend some time poking around in sysinstall. As you learn more you will be able to configure many things on your own using the CLI (command line interface). > > 2) when using sysinstall, a few things failed to install, most notably > bacula, PHP and PHPMyAdmin. > > When things fail to install I'm directed to look at the ..hrm.. should > have written it down.. 'error' window? the something window... > basicaly, Sysinstall is telling me to look somewhere for more detailed > information on why a port is failing to install but I can't figure out > where it wants me to look or how to look there. > The error message is vital. Do it again and pay very close attention and write everything down. The answer to your problem will likely be there!! Michael -- --- From truk Thu Jul 29 13:45:02 2004 From: truk (Kurt Miller) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:45:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? References: <41090C20.2020309@kominik.net> Message-ID: <027901c47593$c7014cd0$290110ac@truk> From: "Barry Kominik" > I got mine a few months before all that talk. I love it. I use it as a > home firewall/web/mail server running openbsd. I installed a 60 gig > laptop hard drive. The only problem I have is heat. The system runs at > about 60C which I think is too hot, though I haven't seen any errors. I > just bought a cheap usb wifi card with the prism3 chipset. I plan on > playing around with making a wifi base station. I'm also thinking of > swapping out the hard drive for a compact flash. Has anyone ever seen > one of these: US Modular 2.2GB compact flash; > http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=338550 In the product > details it says the media is glass. I'd love to find out more about this > as it is cheap, $176. > I purchased a 64MB compact flash and a USB hard drive to avoid heat issues. I plan to use the CF for root and the USB drive for the rest. Unfortunately soekris (or is it OpenBSD?) can't boot of a USB drive. I don't know anything about the US Modular CF, but many people like SanDisk CF on the soekris-tech list . Recently someone posted a link to misc at openbsd.org about how SanDisk uses wear leveling to prolong CF life: http://www.sandisk.com/pdf/oem/WPaperWearLevelv1.0.pdf I haven't had time to setup the soekris box with the 64MB CF and USB drive, but I've got my firewall up on another one using 256MB of a 512MB CF. When I get around to installing the CF/USB combo, I report any gotchas if I find any. -Kurt From george Thu Jul 29 13:50:54 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:50:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? In-Reply-To: <027901c47593$c7014cd0$290110ac@truk> References: <41090C20.2020309@kominik.net> <027901c47593$c7014cd0$290110ac@truk> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Kurt Miller wrote: > From: "Barry Kominik" >> of a 512MB CF. When I get around to installing the CF/USB combo, > I report any gotchas if I find any. > > -Kurt > I haven't done anything with mine yet. . .need to get a ide cable for my laptop harddrive, and or cf card and accessories. . . once we have a few people very skilled in this arena, we should do a fun install fest solely on this. . . In the meantime, while there's great how-to's around on Soekris/BSD, it would be great if everyone started to document their issues, hacks, so on, so we can get them up on the new site at dev.nycbug.org g From jfreeman Thu Jul 29 13:55:00 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:55:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] a few little questions In-Reply-To: <20040729130602.4e1d533e@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: > From: michael > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:06:02 -0400 > To: talk at lists.nycbug.org > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] a few little questions > > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:42 -0400 > "Joshua S. Freeman" wrote: > >> I am happy to report that I successfully downloaded 4.10 isos, >> installed 4.10 without a hitch... ran sysinstall... no problem with >> the RAID or the Serial ATA installed in the ION Computing box.. I even >> configured XFree86 correctly though I've not installed anything more >> exciting than the basic window manager. >> > > Good for you! Thank you! > Are you new to computers? Sometimes it certainly feels that way... but no... > Is this your first BSD > install? yeah, i guess it was! >> Here are a couple of questions: >> >> 1) where do I set things so that the machine is listening for >> connections on port 22 (i.e. ssh)? > > > You can run systinstall again and select [Configure] then > [Networking] and you need to check off [sshd]. Sysinstall is kind-of > like windows with bright colors and menu choices. Many people find it > helpful to spend some time poking around in sysinstall. As you learn > more you will be able to configure many things on your own using the CLI > (command line interface). > cool.. thanks >> >> 2) when using sysinstall, a few things failed to install, most notably >> bacula, PHP and PHPMyAdmin. >> >> When things fail to install I'm directed to look at the ..hrm.. should >> have written it down.. 'error' window? the something window... >> basicaly, Sysinstall is telling me to look somewhere for more detailed >> information on why a port is failing to install but I can't figure out >> where it wants me to look or how to look there. >> > > The error message is vital. Do it again and pay very close attention > and write everything down. The answer to your problem will likely be > there!! ok! Thanks again! J. > > Michael > > > -- > --- > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From jfreeman Thu Jul 29 16:34:10 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:34:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages Message-ID: Here are the messages I'm getting: "Add of Package php4-4.3.6 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug screen for more info." "Add of Package bacula-1.32f5 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug screen for more info." I cannot figure out where/what the debug screen is. TIA, J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Information Technology New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. From jesse Thu Jul 29 16:48:03 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:48:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? In-Reply-To: <41090C20.2020309@kominik.net> References: <41090C20.2020309@kominik.net> Message-ID: <9602B01E-E1A0-11D8-B32B-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On Jul 29, 2004, at 10:39 AM, Barry Kominik wrote: > Michael Hanulec wrote: > >> >> there was tons of talk about them in June. has anyone received >> theirs yet? anyone onlist done anything cool w/ them yet? >> >> -- >> hanulec at hanulec.com cell: 858.518.2647 && 516.410.4478 >> https://secure.hanulec.com EFnet irc && aol im: hanulec >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists >> % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > > I got mine a few months before all that talk. I love it. I use it as a > home firewall/web/mail server running openbsd. I installed a 60 gig > laptop hard drive. The only problem I have is heat. The system runs at > about 60C which I think is too hot, though I haven't seen any errors. > I just bought a cheap usb wifi card with the prism3 chipset. I plan on > playing around with making a wifi base station. I'm also thinking of > swapping out the hard drive for a compact flash. Has anyone ever seen > one of these: US Modular 2.2GB compact flash; > http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=338550 In the product > details it says the media is glass. I'd love to find out more about > this as it is cheap, $176. > > Rgds, > Barry > I'm fascinated by these micro hard drives. Glass? I'm trying to read up on them and have found one cool thing: The heads are floated above teh platter on an air bearing. Thus they don't work at high altitudes because the air mass can't push hard enough on the head-beam. I'm also trying to read up on how giant magnetoresistance works, but I have little knowledge of spin and polarity. From scottro Thu Jul 29 16:56:50 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:56:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040729205650.GA84392@nyserve1.starlofashions.com> On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 04:34:10PM -0400, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > Here are the messages I'm getting: > > "Add of Package php4-4.3.6 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug > screen for more info." > > > "Add of Package bacula-1.32f5 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug > screen for more info." > > > I cannot figure out where/what the debug screen is. I think someone said hit shift and then F2, F3, etc. (I ~think~ it's F4 or F5). However, they apparently mistyped, it should be alt+F4 (or F5 or whatever) :) Of course, at my age, since I've been busy today, I may have misread the original post--but there should be, aside from the install screen, another console where you can see some of the messages. HTH and hope that you're enjoying FreeBSD aside from these glitches--soon you'll be the one telling the next newcomer how to do it. -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Buffy: People to see, demons to kill. From jfreeman Thu Jul 29 17:29:33 2004 From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:29:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages In-Reply-To: <20040729205650.GA84392@nyserve1.starlofashions.com> Message-ID: Thanks Scott, You are correct, in his reply to my post, Jesse Callaway suggested hitting shift-F2, etc... which I interpreted to mean "alt-F2", etc. which enables you to switch between virtual terminals. I was switching between all the terminals (all 7 of them) but was unable to see anything looked like a debug screen.. :-( Hopefully you're correct in your prediction. I'm quite enjoying FreeBSD... it's hard for me to describe but it definitely seems to have a more 'serious' or 'grave' mein than Linux... cheers, J. -- Joshua S. Freeman Dir. of Information Technology New York Botanical Garden v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. > From: Scott Robbins > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:56:50 -0400 > To: "NYCBUG discussion list > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 04:34:10PM -0400, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: >> Here are the messages I'm getting: >> >> "Add of Package php4-4.3.6 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug >> screen for more info." >> >> >> "Add of Package bacula-1.32f5 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug >> screen for more info." >> >> >> I cannot figure out where/what the debug screen is. > > I think someone said hit shift and then F2, F3, etc. (I ~think~ it's F4 > or F5). > > However, they apparently mistyped, it should be alt+F4 (or F5 or > whatever) :) > > > Of course, at my age, since I've been busy today, I may have misread the > original post--but there should be, aside from the install screen, > another console where you can see some of the messages. > > HTH and hope that you're enjoying FreeBSD aside from these > glitches--soon you'll be the one telling the next newcomer how to do it. > > > -- > > Scott > > GPG KeyID EB3467D6 > ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 > > Buffy: People to see, demons to kill. > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From pete Thu Jul 29 18:51:50 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:51:50 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41097F86.6010201@nomadlogic.org> Joshua S. Freeman wrote: >Thanks Scott, > >You are correct, in his reply to my post, Jesse Callaway suggested hitting >shift-F2, etc... which I interpreted to mean "alt-F2", etc. which enables >you to switch between virtual terminals. > >I was switching between all the terminals (all 7 of them) but was unable to >see anything looked like a debug screen.. > > > you may want to check your various logs in /var/log. i believe you already got your system up and booting happily tho. if that is the case then you may want to try installing the package via ports (man ports) or pkg_add (man pkg_add). I highly suggest reading these man pages, they are very well written. The handbook also has some very good walkthroughs on both approaches. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html Quickly, ports will build an application from source, while pkg_add will grab preinstalled binaries and install them. The idea is, if you attempt to install php via pkg_add, for example, you will hopefully get better error messages on what's going wrong. I *believe* sysinstall is primarily used for initial installs. I do not know where files are logged to after the system is up and running. > >Hopefully you're correct in your prediction. I'm quite enjoying FreeBSD... >it's hard for me to describe but it definitely seems to have a more >'serious' or 'grave' mein than Linux... > > > IMO BSD is a whole system (a kernel, supporting applications, etc.), in contrast to Linux which is "just" a kernel that latches into the GNU system. I like them both alot. The good news is that they both are free ;p -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete member: NYCBUG www.nycbug.org New York City's BSD User Group From spork Thu Jul 29 17:53:28 2004 From: spork (Charles Sprickman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040729174959.D3626@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > Thanks Scott, > > You are correct, in his reply to my post, Jesse Callaway suggested hitting > shift-F2, etc... which I interpreted to mean "alt-F2", etc. which enables > you to switch between virtual terminals. That does work during the install; ALT-F2 will give you the sysintall debug screen. BUT if you are running sysinstall post-install, I've not yet figured out where exactly the debug output should show up. > I was switching between all the terminals (all 7 of them) but was unable to > see anything looked like a debug screen.. Yep. > Hopefully you're correct in your prediction. I'm quite enjoying FreeBSD... > it's hard for me to describe but it definitely seems to have a more > 'serious' or 'grave' mein than Linux... "Organized" and "Unified" and "an entire OS not made out of bits and pieces" come to mind as well. :) You might want to try using the "pkg_add" tool to add those packages and see if that works. If it doesn't, it will certainly give you a more meaningful error message. Charles > cheers, > > > J. > -- > Joshua S. Freeman > Dir. of Information Technology > New York Botanical Garden > v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560 > > This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information > intended for a specific individual/group of individuals and a specific > purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not an intended recipient, you > should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of > this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly > prohibited. > > > From: Scott Robbins > > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:56:50 -0400 > > To: "NYCBUG discussion list > > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] those pesky error messages > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 04:34:10PM -0400, Joshua S. Freeman wrote: > >> Here are the messages I'm getting: > >> > >> "Add of Package php4-4.3.6 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug > >> screen for more info." > >> > >> > >> "Add of Package bacula-1.32f5 aborted, error code 1- Please check the debug > >> screen for more info." > >> > >> > >> I cannot figure out where/what the debug screen is. > > > > I think someone said hit shift and then F2, F3, etc. (I ~think~ it's F4 > > or F5). > > > > However, they apparently mistyped, it should be alt+F4 (or F5 or > > whatever) :) > > > > > > Of course, at my age, since I've been busy today, I may have misread the > > original post--but there should be, aside from the install screen, > > another console where you can see some of the messages. > > > > HTH and hope that you're enjoying FreeBSD aside from these > > glitches--soon you'll be the one telling the next newcomer how to do it. > > > > > > -- > > > > Scott > > > > GPG KeyID EB3467D6 > > ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) > > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 > > > > Buffy: People to see, demons to kill. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk at lists.nycbug.org > > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From jonathan.michael.stewart Thu Jul 29 20:28:17 2004 From: jonathan.michael.stewart (Jonathan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:28:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Advice on setting up a RAID array Message-ID: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> Hello all, I'm thinking about setting up a RAID array for my computer for a few reasons: 1. I'm really bad about backups and I have too much information that is reorganized too often to try to backup on CDs 2. I'd like to have more hard drive space for future use 3. I have some money to spend :) and I have not spent any on computers for over 6 months :( The main things I am looking for with the RAID array are (not necessarily in priority order): 1. Size, I'd like to go 500GB+ 2. Redundancy, the main requirement I'm planning to try and mitigate any crashes considering I have no backups (I do know hard drive crashes are not the only thing that can destroy data but hard drive crashes are my main concern) 3. Preferably Hardware RAID so it is more compatible across OSes and performs better. 4. SATA, I don't know if this is even an option yet but SATA would be very nice esp. considering 18in IDE cables can't reach anywhere near the top of my case where I would need to put the drives. 5. Compatibility, I don't doubt whatever I get would work under windows but I also want to be sure it will work under the BSDs (FreeBSD-current won't boot right now but I want to try NetBSD one of these days (5.2.1-release does work for some reason)) Awaiting much helpful advice ;) Jonathan From spork Thu Jul 29 20:36:00 2004 From: spork (Charles Sprickman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Advice on setting up a RAID array In-Reply-To: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> References: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> Message-ID: <20040729203321.J3626@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Jonathan wrote: > Hello all, > I'm thinking about setting up a RAID array for my computer for a > few reasons: > 1. I'm really bad about backups and I have too much information that is > reorganized too often to try to backup on CDs I can tell you from very recent experience that redundancy and backup are two very different things. Backups can really save your ass if you make a mistake. Redundancy generally offers less protection against human error. Human error is hard to avoid with humans using computers. :) If you have the budget, consider getting a really big IDE drive that you can periodically rsync (or any other "simple" backup scheme) with your RAID array. Charles From lists Thu Jul 29 21:27:12 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:27:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how are soekris boxes? In-Reply-To: <027901c47593$c7014cd0$290110ac@truk> References: <41090C20.2020309@kominik.net> <027901c47593$c7014cd0$290110ac@truk> Message-ID: <4109A3F0.7030302@genoverly.net> Mine isn't finished. I bought a SanDisk 256MB CF and started to set it up a few weekends ago. I got it to pxe boot to freebsd and openbsd, but I haven't loaded any OS. I was actually trying to cheat and have it boot from the install CD on the host pc. It was fun watching the FreeBSD boot daemon paint one ascii character at a time.. but only the first time. I was kinda waiting for the August meeting to get me hyped again. Michael From jesse Thu Jul 29 23:24:08 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:24:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Advice on setting up a RAID array In-Reply-To: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> References: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> Message-ID: On Jul 29, 2004, at 8:28 PM, Jonathan wrote: > Hello all, > I'm thinking about setting up a RAID array for my computer for a few > reasons: > 1. I'm really bad about backups and I have too much information that > is reorganized too often to try to backup on CDs > 2. I'd like to have more hard drive space for future use > 3. I have some money to spend :) and I have not spent any on > computers for over 6 months :( > > The main things I am looking for with the RAID array are (not > necessarily in priority order): > 1. Size, I'd like to go 500GB+ > 2. Redundancy, the main requirement I'm planning to try and mitigate > any crashes considering I have no backups (I do know hard drive > crashes are not the only thing that can destroy data but hard drive > crashes are my main concern) > 3. Preferably Hardware RAID so it is more compatible across OSes and > performs better. > 4. SATA, I don't know if this is even an option yet but SATA would be > very nice esp. considering 18in IDE cables can't reach anywhere near > the top of my case where I would need to put the drives. > 5. Compatibility, I don't doubt whatever I get would work under > windows but I also want to be sure it will work under the BSDs > (FreeBSD-current won't boot right now but I want to try NetBSD one of > these days (5.2.1-release does work for some reason)) > > Awaiting much helpful advice ;) > Jonathan > the problem is getting yesterday's data. RAID 5 is pretty cool, but alone it will let you down eventually. Maybe you have RAID 5 to work off of and then do backups to another RAID 5 setup. I highly recommend this over any realtime backup *unless you can roll back. If you can't roll back to another point in time it's just not a backup. Maybe snapshots would help to reduce storage needs. From scottro Fri Jul 30 08:46:10 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:46:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DragonFlyBSD adventures Message-ID: <20040730124610.GA734@nyserve1.starlofashions.com> I haven't seen too much about DFBSD on this list, so thought I'd share my experiences--not sure how common my problems are. First the disclaimer--I have just been playing with it, and when I ran into a problem, did a fairly cursory search of their bugs mailing list. So, it is quite possibe that sometimes I missed the obvious. First problem was booting the CD. If you get the big_timeout error, that keeps repeating, this can be due to the CD being a master. In my case, I switched the cables so that the CD was a slave, and it booted without problem. During the default install--and DO NOT use 1.0, use 1.0A if you have anything else on the drive--there was a problem with 1.0, where it was messing up anything after its own partition--it gives what seems a reasonable size for /usr and defaults to using the rest of it for /home. In my case, on a 7 gig partition, I found that I was better off not creating a separate /home partition. Various builds go on in there, and as it divided /usr into about 3 gigs and /home into 2, I ran out of room at one point. I've found it easiest, at least on a 7 gig partition, to change the defaults to use remaining space for /usr and create a dcvs directory in /usr/home. Funny mistake--at one point, mistyped and made a /home directory--that is, on the 140 meg or so / partition. Oops--that messed up the first cvs rather badly as it quickly ran out of room. I follow the README and just go with the supfile defaults for the first cvsup--when I thought I was being clever, and put it directly into /usr, I had trouble with cvs checkout--no doubt this could be solved with a quick google, but at this point, I'm just playing. Another funny mistake--assuming you're following the README and have cvsup'd then do cvs checkout src---DO follow the README and be sure you have first done the cd /usr. If err, uh, you're in, say, /usr/local/etc, editing a config file and forget to cd to /usr you'll find all your src stuff is in, for example, /usr/local/etc/ssmtp. Oops. Other small glitches--things that run from /usr/local/etc/rc.d, e.g. samba.sh are looking at /usr/local/etc/rc.subr. (This is in the sh script itself). At least as of 4 days ago, that was giving me trouble and editing the script to look at /etc/rc.subr fixed the problem. The cups.sh has a case statement that has *BSD) which should work. However, (again, as of a few days ago) uname didn't have BSD as part of it, just DragonFly, so the case statement didn't work. It went to the last choice, *) which was looking for a file that wasn't on my system. Easily fixed by slightly editing the case statement so that rather than *BSD it just read DragonFly. There are a ton of packages on go.bsd.org that can be added with pkg_add -r. A few aren't working perfectly, but most do. There are, so far, only a relatively few specific DragonFly ports--mostly, they're using FreeBSD 4.x ports. However, there can be problems, for example, at least as of a week ago, xorg wouldn't build. Aside from these minor problems, it seems like a nice OS though, and should become quite good. I suspect that many of my issues could be solved with a little research, but at this point, I'm simply dabbling. Anyway, hope this is of use to someone. -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Buffy: See, this is a school. And we have students and they check out books and then they learn things. Giles: I was beginning to suspect that was a myth. From pete Fri Jul 30 10:14:58 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:14:58 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Advice on setting up a RAID array In-Reply-To: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> References: <41099621.6070009@us.army.mil> Message-ID: <410A57E2.50603@nomadlogic.org> Jonathan wrote: > Hello all, > I'm thinking about setting up a RAID array for my computer for a > few reasons: > 1. I'm really bad about backups and I have too much information that > is reorganized too often to try to backup on CDs > 2. I'd like to have more hard drive space for future use > 3. I have some money to spend :) and I have not spent any on > computers for over 6 months :( > hey those are all execellent reasons, especially #3 ;) > The main things I am looking for with the RAID array are (not > necessarily in priority order): > 1. Size, I'd like to go 500GB+ > 2. Redundancy, the main requirement I'm planning to try and mitigate > any crashes considering I have no backups (I do know hard drive > crashes are not the only thing that can destroy data but hard drive > crashes are my main concern) > 3. Preferably Hardware RAID so it is more compatible across OSes and > performs better. > 4. SATA, I don't know if this is even an option yet but SATA would be > very nice esp. considering 18in IDE cables can't reach anywhere near > the top of my case where I would need to put the drives. > 5. Compatibility, I don't doubt whatever I get would work under > windows but I also want to be sure it will work under the BSDs > (FreeBSD-current won't boot right now but I want to try NetBSD one of > these days (5.2.1-release does work for some reason)) i've had pretty good luck with the 3Ware Raid controllers. They are relativly cheap, and are supported quite well with FreeBSD. I use the "Escalade 7506 Series",* *they are IDE controllers. They do offer SATA cards as well, but have not used them. I have one server here that's using a 7506-12 card, serving up about 1.3 Ter. of data with no problems. The only drawback I can think about these guys is the onboard cache is very small. If you are trying to do any highspeed striping (i.e. a Raid 0 or 1) performance will not be that great when compared to a SCSI RAID card with a proper amount of cache. But it seems like your are shooting for a RAID 5 config so you should be OK. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Fri Jul 30 21:05:00 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:05:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop Message-ID: I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's aimed at those who have told me face-to-face so many times that they'd love to try out a BSD, but have so many basic functions that aren't fulfilled by BSD on a desktop. It may become a meaty piece of documentation for our documentation project, or maybe a serialized piece in Daemon News, or who knows what. . . I'd appreciate any input anyone has in terms of their favorite X packages to run. . .and using which window manager. I'm not going to cover Gnome or KDE environments, but rather focus on XFCE, FVWM, MLVWM, WindowMaker, etc. . . I'd love to hear some input, particularly for those running a BSD desktop. . .this includes Dan's love for xplanet, etc. . .useful for end-user tasks and/or just fun. Thanks. . . g From dlavigne6 Fri Jul 30 21:36:05 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040730212540.J578@dru.domain.org> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's aimed at > those who have told me face-to-face so many times that they'd love to try out > a BSD, but have so many basic functions that aren't fulfilled by BSD on a > desktop. > > It may become a meaty piece of documentation for our documentation project, > or maybe a serialized piece in Daemon News, or who knows what. . . > > I'd appreciate any input anyone has in terms of their favorite X packages to > run. . .and using which window manager. I'm not going to cover Gnome or KDE > environments, but rather focus on XFCE, FVWM, MLVWM, WindowMaker, etc. . . Out of curiosity, why the focus on the light-weight window managers? I was an XFCE fan myself, until I could afford a PC with enough RAM and CPU to comfortably run KDE. Build KDE's metaport and you already have 85% of the desktop stuff you'd ever want to use... As for fave utilities: gimp, firefox, OpenOffice (only for compatability with coworkers), Abiword (because I prefer something more lightweight), numlockx (because it sucks to have to press the numlocks key), xmms, ogle, gkrellm, and scrot. Plus all my network toys, but not every desktop user is a network geek... Dru From george Fri Jul 30 22:05:13 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:05:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040730212540.J578@dru.domain.org> References: <20040730212540.J578@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <0EEC965F-E296-11D8-ADBD-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 30, 2004, at 9:36 PM, Dru wrote: > > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's >> aimed at those >> > > Out of curiosity, why the focus on the light-weight window managers? I > was an XFCE fan myself, until I could afford a PC with enough RAM and > CPU to comfortably run KDE. Build KDE's metaport and you already have > 85% of the desktop stuff you'd ever want to use... Of course. . .the angle I'm thinking is the everyday Unix-like system user who wants to *try* a BSD, and I feel like KDE would be cheating. . . Also, this is for someone without the necessary hardware. . .ie, second machine. . . And I'd hate KDE. . .way too clunky for me. . .I intend to provide some useful temples, including .rc files. .. > As for fave utilities: gimp, firefox, OpenOffice (only for > compatability with coworkers), Abiword (because I prefer something > more lightweight), numlockx (because it sucks to have to press the > numlocks key), xmms, ogle, gkrellm, and scrot. Plus all my network > toys, but not every desktop user is a network geek... > Good list. . .thanks. . . g From scottro Sat Jul 31 00:41:23 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:41:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 09:05:00PM -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: > I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's > aimed at those who have told me face-to-face so many times that they'd > love to try out a BSD, but have so many basic functions that aren't > fulfilled by BSD on a desktop. > > It may become a meaty piece of documentation for our documentation > project, or maybe a serialized piece in Daemon News, or who knows what. > . . > > I'd appreciate any input anyone has in terms of their favorite X > packages to run. . .and using which window manager. I'm not going to > cover Gnome or KDE environments, but rather focus on XFCE, FVWM, MLVWM, > WindowMaker, etc. . . I'm assuming from this, you'd like input on the list. Feel free to use anything here if it's useful. There are various threads on the BSD forums about BSD as a desktop, (including lists of people's favorite apps.) For myself, to attempt to be objective, Linux is still probably a bit better for the desktop, but as I use FreeBSD for almost everything, it was worth it to me to do the extra research to get it working as an adequate desktop. Using Linux opera, getting flash and java working was fairly trivial. One problem I have run into (and haven't yet solved) was the fact that though opera now works with cups (despite notes in their help section sayng it doesn't) there does seem to be a problem with linux-opera and cups--I guess it's trying to to print to something in the /usr/compat linux section--I thought it could be easily solved by symlinking lp or lpr, but that didn't do the trick. (If one does want java working with linux-opera, I recommend installing the linux-blackdown jdk--there's no need to manually install anything as there is with some of the native versions of java, one can simply do make install clean from ports). There are minor glitches still--for instance, if you open up a page using java, suddenly keyboard input switches--open an xterm type anyting (including exit) in the terminal, and keyboard input works again. Haven't played with firefox and java, I keep firefox native in case I do need to print a web page. (With linux-opera, one can simply print to a file then run the file to lp). It's easy to set it to work with either xpdf or acroread, so that pdf pages open without intervention. FreeBSD's version of lbreakout2 is way behind Linux's, but as I just use it to kill time while waiting for things, I can deal with that. The only other game I use at all is penguin-command which seems to be about the same in both. The quality of sound in FreeBSD seems to be a bit less. I've used mplayer for DVD's without too much trouble. My feeling is always that it's better to use a 150 dollar DVD player than a $1,000 computer that doesn't do the job as well, so I've not really gotten involved in it too deeply. Seems that after I install mplayer, I had to do a bit of configuring--which is a bit annoying to me, it's not one of those things that I enjoy researching, I want it to just work like it does on my wife's Mac. On the other hand, with Linux, I think I have the same problem, and xine can never find the DVD player, so it might even be something borked with the hardware. For word processing, I use OpenOffice--I basically just need compatibility with MS .doc and .xls formats and I also need Japanese. I've only been able to print Japanese using OpenOffice--last time I tried, AbiWord wouldn't even enable me to properly input it. As this is an infrequent need, I keep meaning to put in Abiword again, just to keep for simply .doc format when I don't need Japanese or other features of OpenOffice. Again, FreeBSD is a bit behind Linux--OpenOffice now has a version 1.2 (and a 2.x snapshot--though I've heard that is back to being slow) 1.2 does seem much faster than the 1.1 versions. Trying to do it from ports is a major nuisance, and openoffice.org does have a package for 1.1.2, which is a bit faster than 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 (which is, IIRC, the latest offered through ports). My desktop needs are fairly minor, mostly, I use the desktop for some web browsing and to have several terminals open. I use mutt as my emailer, though Sylpheed seems to be the equal of most GUI mail clients I've run into--again, I don't know how good it is if someone has more sophisticated needs, but it enables filtering etc. If we're comparing to Linux, I think it's equal. I use fluxbox as my window manager--I'm a bit of a wm slut, but keep coming back to it. Mainly, I want to be able to move terminals around and open applications with keystrokes, and flux allows me to do this, as well as allowing me to open and navigate its root menu with keystrokes as well. Again, compared with Linux, it seems equal. So, the only advantages to me, at least, in using Linux are a nicer version of lbreakout2, slightly better sound quality (though I have one box where Linux will simply not work with the onboard AC97 sound card and FreeBSD does--as my wife confiscated the speakers to that box for her Mac, it's become a moot point.). Opera will work directly with cups in Linux. (FreeBSD's native opera will also do so, but with native opera, it was too much trouble to get java and flash working). Japanese is as easy, or easier, to get working in FreeBSD (due to the ports--for instance, it's quicker to get Japanese working in FreeBSD than Debian. Deb is not hard at all, but there's a few extra steps one has to take). I realize that's a fairly esoteric need, but it is a need for me. My desktop needs are perhaps less than the average person. However, I think that FreeBSD is pretty easy to get working as a more than adequate desktop. Hope this is of use (and if not, I apologize to the list for the long post) -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Cordelia: When did you become Martha Stewart? Buffy: First of all, Martha Stewart knows jack about hand-cut prosciutto. Xander: I don't believe she slays, either. Oz: Oh, I hear she can, but she doesn't like to. From scottro Sat Jul 31 00:49:10 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:49:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20040731044910.GA23763@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 12:41:23AM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > > For word processing, I use OpenOffice--I basically just need > compatibility with MS .doc and .xls formats and I also need Japanese. > I've only been able to print Japanese using OpenOffice--last time I > tried, AbiWord wouldn't even enable me to properly input it. As this is > an infrequent need, I keep meaning to put in Abiword again, just to keep > for simply .doc format when I don't need Japanese or other features of > OpenOffice. Again, FreeBSD is a bit behind Linux--OpenOffice now has a > version 1.2 (and a 2.x snapshot--though I've heard that is back to being > slow) 1.2 does seem much faster than the 1.1 versions. Trying to do it > from ports is a major nuisance, and openoffice.org does have a package > for 1.1.2, which is a bit faster than 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 (which is, IIRC, > the latest offered through ports). Oops, see I was in error here--I'd written there was a version 1.2.x which there isn't--openoffice.org's FreeBSD version is now on the same level as Linux's, 1.1.2. It does seem faster than previous versions, but (subjective opinion) does seem to open a bit faster in Linux than in FreeBSD--however, the difference is minor, perhaps a second or so. Also, as they're all on different boxes, not sure how much of this is simply due to hardware. -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Buffy: Then why with the crazy? Riley: Because I'm so in love with you I can't think straight. From george Sat Jul 31 09:11:37 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:11:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <277BDBAC-E2F3-11D8-B32D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:41 AM, Scott Robbins wrote: > On Fri, Jul 30, 2004 at 09:05:00PM -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's > > I'm assuming from this, you'd like input on the list. Feel free to > use > anything here if it's useful. > Absolutely . . .sorry if the need for input wasn't clear. > There are various threads on the BSD forums about BSD as a desktop, > (including lists of people's favorite apps.) > Of course. . .I prefer our talk list. > For myself, to attempt to be objective, Linux is still probably a bit > better for the desktop, but as I use FreeBSD for almost everything, it > was worth it to me to do the extra research to get it working as an > adequate desktop. > > Using Linux opera, getting flash and java working was fairly trivial. > One problem I have run into (and haven't yet solved) was the fact that > though opera now works with cups (despite notes in their help section > sayng it doesn't) there does seem to be a problem with linux-opera and > cups--I guess it's trying to to print to something in the /usr/compat > linux section--I thought it could be easily solved by symlinking lp or > lpr, but that didn't do the trick. (If one does want java working with > linux-opera, I recommend installing the linux-blackdown jdk--there's no > need to manually install anything as there is with some of the native > versions of java, one can simply do make install clean from ports). > There are minor glitches still--for instance, if you open up a page > using java, suddenly keyboard input switches--open an xterm type > anyting > (including exit) in the terminal, and keyboard input works again. > Haven't played with firefox and java, I keep firefox native in case I > do > need to print a web page. (With linux-opera, one can simply print to a > file then run the file to lp). > The Flash/Java issue is obviously critical. . .and is a bit of a hassle. I already have it in its own section. . . "First, place your ankles behind the back of your neck. Second, spin around counterclockwise . . ." > It's easy to set it to work with either xpdf or acroread, so that pdf > pages open without intervention. > Very true. > > FreeBSD's version of lbreakout2 is way behind Linux's, but as I just > use > it to kill time while waiting for things, I can deal with that. The > only other game I use at all is penguin-command which seems to be about > the same in both. > > The quality of sound in FreeBSD seems to be a bit less. I've used > mplayer for DVD's without too much trouble. My feeling is always that > it's better to use a 150 dollar DVD player than a $1,000 computer that > doesn't do the job as well, so I've not really gotten involved in it > too > deeply. Seems that after I install mplayer, I had to do a bit of > configuring--which is a bit annoying to me, it's not one of those > things > that I enjoy researching, I want it to just work like it does on my > wife's Mac. On the other hand, with Linux, I think I have the same > problem, and xine can never find the DVD player, so it might even be > something borked with the hardware. > > For word processing, I use OpenOffice--I basically just need > compatibility with MS .doc and .xls formats and I also need Japanese. > I've only been able to print Japanese using OpenOffice--last time I > tried, AbiWord wouldn't even enable me to properly input it. As this > is > an infrequent need, I keep meaning to put in Abiword again, just to > keep > for simply .doc format when I don't need Japanese or other features of > OpenOffice. Again, FreeBSD is a bit behind Linux--OpenOffice now has a > version 1.2 (and a 2.x snapshot--though I've heard that is back to > being > slow) 1.2 does seem much faster than the 1.1 versions. Trying to do > it > from ports is a major nuisance, and openoffice.org does have a package > for 1.1.2, which is a bit faster than 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 (which is, IIRC, > the latest offered through ports). > > My desktop needs are fairly minor, mostly, I use the desktop for some > web browsing and to have several terminals open. I use mutt as my > emailer, though Sylpheed seems to be the equal of most GUI mail clients > I've run into--again, I don't know how good it is if someone has more > sophisticated needs, but it enables filtering etc. If we're comparing > to Linux, I think it's equal. > > I use fluxbox as my window manager--I'm a bit of a wm slut, but keep > coming back to it. Mainly, I want to be able to move terminals around > and open applications with keystrokes, and flux allows me to do this, > as > well as allowing me to open and navigate its root menu with keystrokes > as well. Again, compared with Linux, it seems equal. > > So, the only advantages to me, at least, in using Linux are a nicer > version of lbreakout2, slightly better sound quality (though I have one > box where Linux will simply not work with the onboard AC97 sound card > and FreeBSD does--as my wife confiscated the speakers to that box for > her Mac, it's become a moot point.). Opera will work directly with > cups > in Linux. (FreeBSD's native opera will also do so, but with native > opera, it was too much trouble to get java and flash working). > > Japanese is as easy, or easier, to get working in FreeBSD (due to the > ports--for instance, it's quicker to get Japanese working in FreeBSD > than Debian. Deb is not hard at all, but there's a few extra steps one > has to take). I realize that's a fairly esoteric need, but it is a > need > for me. > > My desktop needs are perhaps less than the average person. However, I > think that FreeBSD is pretty easy to get working as a more than > adequate > desktop. > Agree. . . > Hope this is of use (and if not, I apologize to the list for the long > post) > No apology necessary. . .thanks for your input Scott. . . g From george Sat Jul 31 09:14:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:14:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731044910.GA23763@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731044910.GA23763@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <86507F22-E2F3-11D8-B32D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:49 AM, Scott Robbins wrote: > On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 12:41:23AM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: >> >> For word processing, I use OpenOffice--I basically just need >> compatibility with MS .doc and .xls formats and I also need Japanese. >> I've only been able to print Japanese using OpenOffice--last time I >> tried, AbiWord wouldn't even enable me to properly input it. As this >> is >> an infrequent need, I keep meaning to put in Abiword again, just to >> keep >> for simply .doc format when I don't need Japanese or other features of >> OpenOffice. Again, FreeBSD is a bit behind Linux--OpenOffice now has >> a >> version 1.2 (and a 2.x snapshot--though I've heard that is back to >> being >> slow) 1.2 does seem much faster than the 1.1 versions. Trying to do >> it >> from ports is a major nuisance, and openoffice.org does have a package >> for 1.1.2, which is a bit faster than 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 (which is, IIRC, >> the latest offered through ports). > > > Oops, see I was in error here--I'd written there was a version 1.2.x > which there isn't--openoffice.org's FreeBSD version is now on the same > level as Linux's, 1.1.2. It does seem faster than previous versions, > but (subjective opinion) does seem to open a bit faster in Linux than > in > FreeBSD--however, the difference is minor, perhaps a second or so. > Also, as they're all on different boxes, not sure how much of this is > simply due to hardware. > Unless you're using FBSD 4.10. . . which is still 1.0. I do notice a general speed difference with the newer versions. . . I know there are hacks to increase speed of OOo startup, but haven't googled yet, so I'll keep my mouth shut g From scottro Sat Jul 31 10:31:09 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:31:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <86507F22-E2F3-11D8-B32D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731044910.GA23763@scottro11.homeunix.net> <86507F22-E2F3-11D8-B32D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040731143109.GA27055@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 09:14:16AM -0400, G. Rosamond wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:49 AM, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > > >Oops, see I was in error here--I'd written there was a version 1.2.x > >which there isn't--openoffice.org's FreeBSD version is now on the same > >level as Linux's, 1.1.2. It does seem faster than previous versions, > >but (subjective opinion) does seem to open a bit faster in Linux than > >in > >FreeBSD--however, the difference is minor, perhaps a second or so. > >Also, as they're all on different boxes, not sure how much of this is > >simply due to hardware. > > > > Unless you're using FBSD 4.10. . . which is still 1.0. www.openoffice.org has its own binaries, including 1.1.2 for FreeBSD 4.x. > I do notice a general speed difference with the newer versions. . . Yes, I didn't benchmark it, but it is noticeable--I found it more noticeable in Linux, but it's still noticeable in FreeBSD. > > I know there are hacks to increase speed of OOo startup, but haven't > googled yet, so I'll keep my mouth shut This is one of the things, (imho) that shouldn't require google. It's a freakin' desktop app, and should, if one is into advocacy, just work. Of course, this is easy for me to say, I'm not a coder. :) Still it does seem that, especially if advocacy is an issue, that one shouldn't have to do extra work. Those speed up tips might be on their page somewhere--as I really seldom need it, I've never bothered to look hard either--seems to me (but with my memory, I could easily be wrong) that one had to do something that seemed to be too much trouble. :) The other thing that joe user doesn't realize is that one reason MS Office opens so much faster is that it's preloaded into memory. (Or something like that, that's what I seem to remember.) With hardware these days, that isn't often noticeable, but when setting up users' MS boxen, one of the first things I do is remove it from startup--no one has complained about slow opening yet. However, if we're comparing to Linux, vs. MS or Mac, then, this becomes a non-issue. Ohhhh--I forgot realplayer--haven't gotten that working properly with Linux-opera either. Mezz, the developer has a post on forums about getting things to work with it and mentioned that he hadn't been able to get it working, so at least I'm in good company. Realplayer ~does~ work if I want to open something with it, but if one clicks on a vid link on the web, it doesn't open. I think I did get it to do that in Linux with opera, but I've forgotten what I did. :) (Again, it's not something I do often or really need. So, there's one more disadvantage to FreeBSD as desktop. However, (again, to me, with my needs) it's too minor to merit me not using FreeBSD as my main workstation. -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Spike: What's Big Blue doing anyway? The Judge: I am preparing. Spike: It's interesting to me that preparing looks a great bit like sitting on your ass. From george Sat Jul 31 11:00:47 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:00:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731143109.GA27055@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731044123.GA23584@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731044910.GA23763@scottro11.homeunix.net> <86507F22-E2F3-11D8-B32D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040731143109.GA27055@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <67C251D6-E302-11D8-B32D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On Jul 31, 2004, at 10:31 AM, Scott Robbins wrote: >> Unless you're using FBSD 4.10. . . which is still 1.0. > > www.openoffice.org has its own binaries, including 1.1.2 for FreeBSD > 4.x. > You are correct. . .I was referring to the comments is the 1.1 port. . . >> I do notice a general speed difference with the newer versions. . . > > Yes, I didn't benchmark it, but it is noticeable--I found it more > noticeable in Linux, but it's still noticeable in FreeBSD. > > >> >> I know there are hacks to increase speed of OOo startup, but haven't >> googled yet, so I'll keep my mouth shut > > > > > This is one of the things, (imho) that shouldn't require google. It's a > freakin' desktop app, and should, if one is into advocacy, just work. > > Of course, this is easy for me to say, I'm not a coder. :) > I agree. . .but tweaking is a reality of the world. If it wasn't the case, Dru wouldn't be a billionaire off her BSD Hacks book. > Still it does seem that, especially if advocacy is an issue, that one > shouldn't have to do extra work. Those speed up tips might be on their > page somewhere--as I really seldom need it, I've never bothered to look > hard either--seems to me (but with my memory, I could easily be wrong) > that one had to do something that seemed to be too much trouble. :) > I haven't bothered either, obviously. But it's a reality of all os's, and while OOo is in its 1.x releases, there are still maturity issues that are being dealt with. . .It wasn't that long ago that you couldn't perform a decent zoom in "page preview" mode. . . > The other thing that joe user doesn't realize is that one reason MS > Office opens so much faster is that it's preloaded into memory. (Or > something like that, that's what I seem to remember.) With > hardware these days, that isn't often noticeable, but when setting up > users' MS boxen, one of the first things I do is remove it from > startup--no one has complained about slow opening yet. > That's one reason. . .and having it preloaded (from Win32 experiences) does make it substantially faster. > > However, if we're comparing to Linux, vs. MS or Mac, then, this becomes > a non-issue. > Yes, but no. It's relevant insofar as most users don't do basic comparisons when using new operating systems. . . they become super critical when they are using something new. This can arise with every desktop application. . . It's what people are used to. But my target audience is quite narrow. . . > Ohhhh--I forgot realplayer--haven't gotten that working properly with > Linux-opera either. Mezz, the developer has a post on forums about > getting things to work with it and mentioned that he hadn't been able > to > get it working, so at least I'm in good company. Realplayer ~does~ > work > if I want to open something with it, but if one clicks on a vid link on > the web, it doesn't open. I think I did get it to do that in Linux > with > opera, but I've forgotten what I did. :) (Again, it's not something I > do often or really need. > Haven't even tried Real Player. . .that little evil spyware that masquerades as a desktop necessity. > So, there's one more disadvantage to FreeBSD as desktop. However, > (again, to me, with my needs) it's too minor to merit me not using > FreeBSD as my main workstation. Understood. I use W2K, primarily due to QuickBooks which is a necessity since I'm an independent consultant, but I live on my iBook now. . .when it's not in the repair shop . Let me again reiterate my goal: a comprehensive how-to for all those people at non-BSD events who approach the Daemon News/BSD Mall table and say they want to try out a BSD on their desktop. This would be a handy reference, aimed at providing what they need to know, instead of rattling off responses piecemeal. It would be a tool for today's context: a real growth in interest in the BSDs, something that's noticeable even among the trolls of Slashdot. Maybe I should stop these long rambling responses. . .sorry. g From pete Sat Jul 31 11:53:16 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:53:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2004, at 9:05 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's > aimed at those who have told me face-to-face so many times that they'd > love to try out a BSD, but have so many basic functions that aren't > fulfilled by BSD on a desktop. > > It may become a meaty piece of documentation for our documentation > project, or maybe a serialized piece in Daemon News, or who knows > what. . . > > I'd appreciate any input anyone has in terms of their favorite X > packages to run. . .and using which window manager. I'm not going to > cover Gnome or KDE environments, but rather focus on XFCE, FVWM, > MLVWM, WindowMaker, etc. . . > > I'd love to hear some input, particularly for those running a BSD > desktop. . .this includes Dan's love for xplanet, etc. . .useful for > end-user tasks and/or just fun. > ...pete strap's on his asbestos fireman suit.... OK I'm a GNOME user, and I'm not sure why you would not want to include it in your examination of WM's. It's not like the GNOME team doesn't have a lot of the Xorg people working with them ;^) seriously tho, I feel that Gnome 2.6 runs pretty great on most modern hardware and it's easy-pees'y-puddin-pie to install via ports (including the 5th toe port). Most of the X11 ports you are going to run into these day's either require QT or GTK2, so you are most likely going to be installing most of the KDE and GNOME libraries anyway.... So let's assume they are used to CDE for some reason and want a modern WM that is similar to CDE, I would go with XFCE. It's also GTK2+ so if an app works on GNOME you are all set. I guess there is also fvwm2 as well, which is my personal lightweight favorite. here is my list of apps that I *need* on any desktop workstation I setup: moz, thunderbird, firefox, Xchat, konqueror, konsole (love tabbed shells), gnome-multiterm (again love tabbed shells), xterm, xmms, realplayer, abiword, gnumeric. That's about it, must of the "real" utilities i use are in a shell anyway. I've tried using OOo, but really think it's over kill for my admin duties. Abiword has no problems with .doc formats and gnumeric I think is better than Excell, and I read somewhere that it's infact more precise than excell.... For me it's really the tabbed shells that won me over with using GNOME or KDE. You can use tab's in gnome-term, but it's kinda crappy compared to konsole. if you have not tried it out, the default shortcut is ctl+shift+t to make a new tab, and shift+left/right arrow key moves from tab to tab. -p > Thanks. . . > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month From scottro Sat Jul 31 12:45:54 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:45:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 11:53:16AM -0400, pete wright wrote: > > On Jul 30, 2004, at 9:05 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > >I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's > > > > That's about it, must of the "real" utilities i use are in a shell > anyway. I've tried using OOo, but really think it's over kill for my > admin duties. Abiword has no problems with .doc formats and gnumeric I > think is better than Excell, and I read somewhere that it's infact more > precise than excell.... Yes, I would use it were it not for the need for Japanese. > > For me it's really the tabbed shells that won me over with using GNOME > or KDE. You can use tab's in gnome-term, but it's kinda crappy > compared to konsole. if you have not tried it out, the default > shortcut is ctl+shift+t to make a new tab, and shift+left/right arrow > key moves from tab to tab. Just for fun, you might try materm, another x-terminal with tabs. (I prefer separate terminals myself, and fluxbox allows me to move them around the screen with a keystroke combo) -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Riley: I thought maybe we could have a little spread. Sandwiches, maybe some ants. Could be fun. Buffy: We were talking about a picnic? Riley: Oh... so, was that a conversation I actually had or one I was just practicing? From pete Sat Jul 31 12:49:07 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:49:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <89D6D125-E311-11D8-857E-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:45 PM, Scott Robbins wrote: > On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 11:53:16AM -0400, pete wright wrote: >> >> On Jul 30, 2004, at 9:05 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>> I'm working on a outline of making FreeBSD a useful desktop. It's >>> >> >> That's about it, must of the "real" utilities i use are in a shell >> anyway. I've tried using OOo, but really think it's over kill for my >> admin duties. Abiword has no problems with .doc formats and gnumeric >> I >> think is better than Excell, and I read somewhere that it's infact >> more >> precise than excell.... > > Yes, I would use it were it not for the need for Japanese. > >> >> For me it's really the tabbed shells that won me over with using GNOME >> or KDE. You can use tab's in gnome-term, but it's kinda crappy >> compared to konsole. if you have not tried it out, the default >> shortcut is ctl+shift+t to make a new tab, and shift+left/right arrow >> key moves from tab to tab. > > Just for fun, you might try materm, another x-terminal with tabs. > (I prefer separate terminals myself, and fluxbox allows me to move them > around the screen with a keystroke combo) > cool thanks! that may be exactly what i'm looking for. is it a sf.net project...i guess i could just google it. cheers, pete > -- > > Scott > > PGP keyID EB3467D6 > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 > > Riley: I thought maybe we could have a little spread. Sandwiches, > maybe some ants. Could be fun. > Buffy: We were talking about a picnic? > Riley: Oh... so, was that a conversation I actually had or one I > was just practicing? > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month From scottro Sat Jul 31 13:03:12 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:03:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <89D6D125-E311-11D8-857E-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <89D6D125-E311-11D8-857E-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040731170312.GB27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 12:49:07PM -0400, pete wright wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2004, at 12:45 PM, Scott Robbins wrote: > > >On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 11:53:16AM -0400, pete wright wrote: > >> Heh, we're quoting too much, let me try to attribute here properly. (I think that emacs does it automatically, but after trying to learn it, I settled for learning simpler operating systems) :) > > > >> > [Pete] >>For me it's really the tabbed shells that won me over with using GNOME > >>or KDE. You can use tab's in gnome-term, but it's kinda crappy > >>compared to konsole. if you have not tried it out, the default > >>shortcut is ctl+shift+t to make a new tab, and shift+left/right arrow > >>key moves from tab to tab. > > [Scott] > >Just for fun, you might try materm, another x-terminal with tabs. > >(I prefer separate terminals myself, and fluxbox allows me to move them > >around the screen with a keystroke combo) > > > [Pete] > cool thanks! that may be exactly what i'm looking for. is it a sf.net > project...i guess i could just google it. > > cheers, > pete It's in ports--shucks, I think it has a different name, hold on. Ah, there it is. /usr/ports/x11/multi-aterm a multi terminal based on aterm. :)[1] [1] The smiley is mine. -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Willow: The only solution is the final solution. Xander: Nuke the school? I like that. Willow: Not quite. Exorcism. Cordelia: Are you crazy? I saw that movie. Even the priest died. From louis Sat Jul 31 13:04:49 2004 From: louis (Louis Bertrand) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > I'd love to hear some input, particularly for those running a BSD > desktop. . .this includes Dan's love for xplanet, etc. . .useful for > end-user tasks and/or just fun. > I bought in to the "Linux is better on the desktop" hype a few years ago. I'd been running OpenBSD on servers, and on a laptop for PHP and Java development. But the challenge was to set up a non-tecnical user on something other than Windows. The most annoying part was having to go on a scavenger hunt for drivers: network card, AC97 sound on MB. The dmesg in Linux doesn't give you a clue, so you have to look at the chips, the specs or just guess. I kept rebooting the machine with an OpenBSD boot floppy, writing down the hardware specs from dmesg and then continuing the hunt. The distro you run does matter: some do a better job of integration than others. Finally, I just said "f--- it" and installed OpenBSD with KDE. It almost all worked. Printing from Linux emul apps was wonky: the Linux app (e.g. Acrobat) would place the spool file in /emul, but lpr was looking under the real / . Ciao --Louis From pete Sat Jul 31 13:24:32 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:24:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731170312.GB27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <89D6D125-E311-11D8-857E-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <20040731170312.GB27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <7CC285D4-E316-11D8-857E-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On Jul 31, 2004, at 1:03 PM, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > It's in ports--shucks, I think it has a different name, hold on. > > Ah, there it is. > > > /usr/ports/x11/multi-aterm > > a multi terminal based on aterm. :)[1] > > [1] The smiley is mine. > nice, i've used aterm before...i'm gonna give it a try right now. thanks scott! -p From mspitze1 Sat Jul 31 14:01:23 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:01:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:45:54 -0400 Scott Robbins wrote: > Just for fun, you might try materm, another x-terminal with tabs. > (I prefer separate terminals myself, and fluxbox allows me to move > them around the screen with a keystroke combo) Long live screen!!! After all what is the real use of a terminal multiplexer that needs X to work? 'C-a ?' is all you need to get started with it or a quick man screen. marc From pete Sat Jul 31 14:04:54 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:04:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] X and screen. was: BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: <20180B1D-E31C-11D8-857E-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On Jul 31, 2004, at 2:01 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > > Long live screen!!! After all what is the real use of a terminal > multiplexer that needs X to work? 'C-a ?' is all you need to get > started with it or a quick man screen. > hey marc, here is a dumb question...can you run say Xterm in a screen session, detach the session (along with xterm) then re-attach the session somewhere else and have the xterm come back. i've tried it out, but have a feeling that it's not possible or i'm missing a swtich somewhere. -p From spork Sat Jul 31 14:05:06 2004 From: spork (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040731140045.N41948@toad.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Louis Bertrand wrote: > I bought in to the "Linux is better on the desktop" hype a few > years ago. I'd been running OpenBSD on servers, and on a laptop > for PHP and Java development. But the challenge was to set up a > non-tecnical user on something other than Windows. > The most annoying part was having to go on a scavenger hunt for > drivers: network card, AC97 sound on MB. The dmesg in Linux doesn't > give you a clue, so you have to look at the chips, the specs or just > guess. I kept rebooting the machine with an OpenBSD boot floppy, > writing down the hardware specs from dmesg and then continuing the > hunt. Personally, I think that if you spend any time at all on a Linux noobie list, you'll find that many things in Linux are just as difficult and in some cases more difficult than *BSD. There is a *perception* amongst many Linux users that it's "easier", but that's more from familiarity than anything else. I've been using FBSD as a desktop for years and I find that between it being a complete OS (no distro searching) and having the ports/packages system it's all pretty easy. See, for example /usr/ports/misc/instant-workstation Charles > Ciao > --Louis > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From scottro Sat Jul 31 14:26:41 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:26:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 02:01:23PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote: > On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:45:54 -0400 > Scott Robbins wrote: > > > Just for fun, you might try materm, another x-terminal with tabs. > > (I prefer separate terminals myself, and fluxbox allows me to move > > them around the screen with a keystroke combo) > > > Long live screen!!! After all what is the real use of a terminal > multiplexer that needs X to work? 'C-a ?' is all you need to get > started with it or a quick man screen. Heh. Screen is handy, but what if you want 6 terms or so visible? Yes, it can be done, but you can only see a few lines of each. Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. http://www.qndguides.org/qnd-screen.html -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Anya: You know this isn't your world, right? I mean, you know you don't belong here. Willow: No. This is a dumb world. On my world, there are people in chains, and we can ride them like ponies. From scottro Sat Jul 31 15:14:59 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:14:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 02:26:41PM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in > quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. > > http://www.qndguides.org/qnd-screen.html > > Sigh, I can't even spam properly--the correct url is http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-screen.html -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Willy: What are you gonna' do with him, anyway? Spike: I'm thinkin' maybe dinner and a movie. I don't want to rush into anything. I've been hurt, you know. From okan Sat Jul 31 15:33:19 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:33:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20040731193319.GA89061@yinaska.pair.com> On Sat 2004.07.31 at 15:14 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > > > > Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in > > quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. > > http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-screen.html i know this is getting OT, but i'd like to throw my $.02 out here. nothing against anything/anyone, but i've seen screen mentioned many times on this list. i like screen and use screen mainly for interactive processes, such as screening my irc sessions; however, i believe it should not be a replacement for nohup - as admins gain experience, they will find that they will need to use the standard utitilies on a unix/unix-like system to get to the "final" state....in other words, i say learn to use the standard utils, existant in all OS's / shells, first, then find the nice "addon" tools later. (*bsd/sunos/solaris/hpux/aix/linux/etc......) far too many times have i seen admins expect to use tools that simply do not exist on stock/custom builds that are not their own - and then even in dire times.... ok, way off-topic: -$.02 okan -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From okan Sat Jul 31 15:37:33 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:37:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20040731193733.GA91309@yinaska.pair.com> On Sat 2004.07.31 at 15:14 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > > Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in > > quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. > > > > http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-screen.html albeit my previous post, i very much like the idea you and your friends have taken ... very quick and to the point - thanks okan -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From scottro Sat Jul 31 16:11:45 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:11:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731193319.GA89061@yinaska.pair.com> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731193319.GA89061@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040731201145.GA28960@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 03:33:19PM -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Sat 2004.07.31 at 15:14 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > > > > > > > Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in > > > quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. > > > > http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-screen.html > > i know this is getting OT, but i'd like to throw my $.02 out here. IMHO very apt, however (sigh, if this were a Deb list, there's a pun there.) > > other words, i say learn to use the standard utils, existant in all > OS's / shells, first, then find the nice "addon" tools later. > (*bsd/sunos/solaris/hpux/aix/linux/etc......) far too many times > have i seen admins expect to use tools that simply do not exist on > stock/custom builds that are not their own - and then even in dire > times.... An embarrassing but perhaps educational story. I first got into IT as a profession via the MCSE route though the *nix clones interested me a great deal. I got my first job, and had to edit some files on an AIX box. Thinking I was an elite Linuxer or whatever, I went to fire up pico--oops, no pico on the AIX box. (Yeah, I know, but remember I was ignorant then.) I learned vi in a hurry, and when I see posts like Okan's, I think of how true they are. I like screen but wouldn't want to be hired somewhere, go to do some remote things and not know of -nohup. Thank you Okan, for reminding us of this. -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Angel: Acathla turned to stone, as demons sometimes do, and was buried where neither man nor demon would want to look...unless, of course, they're putting up low-rent housing. From scottro Sat Jul 31 16:41:08 2004 From: scottro (Scott Robbins) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:41:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731193733.GA91309@yinaska.pair.com> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731193733.GA91309@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040731204107.GA29102@scottro11.homeunix.net> On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 03:37:33PM -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote: > On Sat 2004.07.31 at 15:14 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > > > > > > Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in > > > quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. > > > > > > > http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-screen.html > > albeit my previous post, i very much like the idea you and your > friends have taken ... very quick and to the point - thanks And thanks for your kind words. The idea started when one of the three people involved wrote a guide to gpg for his father. :) Of course, he has yet to redo it for our page. However, your post makes me think that I should add a little section on nohup there, especially as those pages are (in the most part) for the novice. -- Scott PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Angelus: You know, I never properly thanked you for sending me to Hell. Buffy: No... Angelus: I'm wondering, where do I start? A card, fruit basket, hmm? Evisceration? From klimenta Sat Jul 31 16:47:04 2004 From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:47:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on a desktop In-Reply-To: <20040731201145.GA28960@scottro11.homeunix.net> References: <20040731164554.GA27567@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731140123.150768b4@bogomips.optonline.net> <20040731182641.GA28350@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731191459.GB28518@scottro11.homeunix.net> <20040731193319.GA89061@yinaska.pair.com> <20040731201145.GA28960@scottro11.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <410C0548.9070707@futurebit.com> Scott Robbins wrote: >On Sat, Jul 31, 2004 at 03:33:19PM -0400, Okan Demirmen wrote: > > >>On Sat 2004.07.31 at 15:14 -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: >> >> >>>> >>>>Some friends of mine and I are working on a series of QND (as in >>>>quick-n-dirty) guides--we threw in one about screen. >>>> >>>> >>>http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-screen.html >>> >>> >>i know this is getting OT, but i'd like to throw my $.02 out here. >> >> > >IMHO very apt, however (sigh, if this were a Deb list, there's a pun >there.) > > >>other words, i say learn to use the standard utils, existant in all >>OS's / shells, first, then find the nice "addon" tools later. >>(*bsd/sunos/solaris/hpux/aix/linux/etc......) far too many times >>have i seen admins expect to use tools that simply do not exist on >>stock/custom builds that are not their own - and then even in dire >>times.... >> >> > > >An embarrassing but perhaps educational story. > >I first got into IT as a profession via the MCSE route though the *nix >clones interested me a great deal. I got my first job, and had to edit >some files on an AIX box. Thinking I was an elite Linuxer or whatever, >I went to fire up pico--oops, no pico on the AIX box. (Yeah, I know, >but remember I was ignorant then.) > >I learned vi in a hurry, and when I see posts like Okan's, I think of >how true they are. > >I like screen but wouldn't want to be hired somewhere, go to do some >remote things and not know of -nohup. > >Thank you Okan, for reminding us of this. > > > > From okan Sat Jul 31 18:14:27 2004 From: okan (Okan Demirmen) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:14:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports [was re: BSD on a desktop] Message-ID: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> to everything here, hoping people will notice how OT i'm getting.... while browsing over the other QND's, i noticed the freebsd way of installing ports from the ports tree (i'm not talking installing via packages, ala pkg_add, but rather from source). i've seen many times posts about "make install [clean]" as root. i was somewhat shocked as to see that that really is the case in freebsd. for those of you playing with, or wanting to play with, openbsd, that method of "make install clean as root" certainly will work, it however is not preferred. (i don't *think* i'm by myself here). in openbsd, both "make build" (base build) and "make (package|install)" (ports) pull a nice variable from /etc/mk.conf - SUDO=/usr/bin/sudo. you can guess what that does - anything that *requires" root, the make infrastructure uses ${SUDO}. so the effects? - well, for one you are not building any ports as root (no ./configure --whatever as root on untrusted source) and one can also systrace the package build process too by flicking on the systrace switch...the only root priv one needs is to "package" and "install"...(and it is taked care of automagically if you are in sudoers) this is also true for "make build" in openbsd land...the entire system is built as a normal user, except for "installs" and regress tests that require root (pfctl, etc...), and a "release" process that makes vnds for snapshots...it goes as far as the contents of /usr/{src,obj,ports} need not to be owned by root, just add the user to "wsrc" group...time to stop ;) anyway, i'm not here to start a war or anything, but i just want to point that out on openbsd. now, it's been a while for me on netbsd, so i'm sure someone will clarify for us what netbsd does...i'm sure it's close or similar to openbsd's build infrastructure. okan -- Okan Demirmen PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 From spork Sat Jul 31 18:27:33 2004 From: spork (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports [was re: BSD on a desktop] In-Reply-To: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> References: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Okan Demirmen wrote: > in openbsd, both "make build" (base build) and "make (package|install)" > (ports) pull a nice variable from /etc/mk.conf - SUDO=/usr/bin/sudo. In FreeBSD have a look at the portupgrade port (which also has a hardlink called "portinstall") and check out it's "-s" switch. It would be nice if portupgrade were part of the base, but I suppose that they don't want ruby in the base just for one set of tools. If you're using freebsd and never used portupgrade, try it out; it's a fantastic way to safely upgrade things. All old ports/packages are backed-up so you can undo anything if you make a mistake. And pkgtools.conf lets you set presets for things like PHP, mysql, or anything that requires some build-time adjustments. Charles > okan > > -- > Okan Demirmen > PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934 > PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934 > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From mspitze1 Sat Jul 31 18:58:28 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:58:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports [was re: BSD on a desktop] In-Reply-To: References: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040731185828.4ad3217c@bogomips.optonline.net> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Charles Sprickman wrote: > On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Okan Demirmen wrote: > > > in openbsd, both "make build" (base build) and "make > > (package|install)"(ports) pull a nice variable from /etc/mk.conf - > > SUDO=/usr/bin/sudo. > > In FreeBSD have a look at the portupgrade port (which also has a > hardlink called "portinstall") and check out it's "-s" switch. > > It would be nice if portupgrade were part of the base, but I suppose > that they don't want ruby in the base just for one set of tools. > > If you're using freebsd and never used portupgrade, try it out; it's a > fantastic way to safely upgrade things. All old ports/packages are > backed-up so you can undo anything if you make a mistake. And > pkgtools.conf lets you set presets for things like PHP, mysql, or > anything that requires some build-time adjustments. It is a nice tool, that I use. But with that said NetBSD pkgsrc tools provide most/all the added functionality of portupgrade. And it works on Solaris(among others) also, quit well I must say. I am using it for package management at work, netbsd on PC's and Sun/Solaris. marc From jschauma Sat Jul 31 23:17:54 2004 From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:17:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports [was re: BSD on a desktop] In-Reply-To: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> References: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> Message-ID: <20040801031754.GA21272@netmeister.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: msg.pgp Type: application/pgp Size: 1295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040731/79c57dda/attachment.bin From spork Sat Jul 31 23:15:47 2004 From: spork (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] ports [was re: BSD on a desktop] In-Reply-To: <20040731185828.4ad3217c@bogomips.optonline.net> References: <20040731221427.GA8138@yinaska.pair.com> <20040731185828.4ad3217c@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Marc Spitzer wrote: > It is a nice tool, that I use. But with that said NetBSD pkgsrc tools > provide most/all the added functionality of portupgrade. And it works > on Solaris(among others) also, quit well I must say. I am using it for > package management at work, netbsd on PC's and Sun/Solaris. Hey, all us BSDers should get together and talk about the differences amongst the various BSDs. Oh wait, we are... :) If my SparcStation 2 still boots I'll give NetBSD a spin on that. pkgsrc sounds fun. Charles > marc > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > % Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > % We meet the first Wednesday of the month >