From lists Sun May 2 13:41:09 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 13:41:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing Message-ID: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> Have I made the right choices?... or have I been tilting at windmills?... or am I just a rebel for a dying cause?... I like choices in my world and I frequently exercise that choice. My motivations for making certain choices are varied. Sometimes I go with the great unwashed masses in the computing world and use the common apps in the common OS on the common hardware (Word, Windows, Intel). But that is rare and usually for a specific purpose (recruiters want my resume in that format). I frequently choose alternatives. I have been running Linux for years, BSD, and solaris on sparc (involuntarily). My laptop is PowerPC (ibook) and next desktop may be AMD (shuttle). The point is: I have moved away (but not detached) from the Windows/Intel platform. While I do NOT rage against those machines, I like where I am. I know I can always have fun with my 'fringe' technologies, and there will probably always be some level of need for my skillsets. But lately I've been thinking about my future and the future of the marketplace. Now, I'm not curled up in a fetal position in the corner calling out for mommy but, I AM taking pause. Unless... my subconscious is falling victim to the marketing machine. Should I be afraid of Longhorn-XAML-Avalon, or is that what they WANT me to be afraid of? Will BSD ever break out like we hope? Will apple really turn into a music media company? Will linux ever capture the desktop? Does any of this matter if the giant has locked up 90% of the market? So to ask the unaskable... what does the future hold? There is a lot of very respectable chatter on the web in this direction too: http://www.drunkenbatman.com/drunkenblog-archives/000257.html Rhapsody in Yellow "What the hell is going on with independent development & the Mac?" http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2004/Apr-24.html Miguel de Icaza's web log "And finally, Longhorn will get deployed, XAML/Avalon applications will be written, and people will consume them. The worst bit: people will expect their desktop to be able to access these "rich" sites. With 90% market share, it seems doable." http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=40724396.1000303 at meer.net "Mozilla is not the Army. That's the good news. The bad news is that we have Redmond's army ants arrayed against us." All this hand wringing will be mute once I win the lotto! Michael -- From mlists Sun May 2 14:52:36 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 14:52:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> Message-ID: <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> On Sun, May 02, 2004 at 01:41:09PM -0400, michael wrote: > Have I made the right choices?... > or have I been tilting at windmills?... > or am I just a rebel for a dying cause?... > > I like choices in my world and I frequently exercise that choice. My > motivations for making certain choices are varied. Sometimes I go with > the great unwashed masses in the computing world and use the common > apps in the common OS on the common hardware (Word, Windows, Intel). > But that is rare and usually for a specific purpose (recruiters want my > resume in that format). I frequently choose alternatives. I have been > running Linux for years, BSD, and solaris on sparc (involuntarily). My > laptop is PowerPC (ibook) and next desktop may be AMD (shuttle). > > The point is: I have moved away (but not detached) from the > Windows/Intel platform. While I do NOT rage against those machines, I > like where I am. I know I can always have fun with my 'fringe' > technologies, and there will probably always be some level of need for > my skillsets. But lately I've been thinking about my future and the > future of the marketplace. Now, I'm not curled up in a fetal position > in the corner calling out for mommy but, I AM taking pause. > Unless... my subconscious is falling victim to the marketing machine. > Should I be afraid of Longhorn-XAML-Avalon, or is that what they WANT > me to be afraid of? Will BSD ever break out like we hope? Will apple > really turn into a music media company? Will linux ever capture the > desktop? Does any of this matter if the giant has locked up 90% of the > market? > > So to ask the unaskable... what does the future hold? We don't know, that is what makes life fun. :) I had the same questions, thoughts and fears when I made a change from MS to Linux in the early 90s. It was hard to decide not to have a dual boot computer anymore, but to try only using Linux, no matter how hard it was, and how long it took to just figure out how to configure X. For some time, I had doubts, especially since a lot of friends didn't want to bother with it, and played games all the time while I was trying to figure out htf to use slip. To cut the nostalgia short, I'm not at all sorry now. In the meantime I made another switch to BSDs in late 1998, and never looked back. Right now, I know enough Windows to get around, and I have friends who I can ask for help. I also know Linux, or should I say, a couple of distros. But without BSD, I would maybe have to change the field. I love it. Can't live without it. I'm not worried if Linux will capture the desktops, if Apple will gain more market share, or if BSD will grow bigger. What future will bring, I don't know. What I do know is that I enjoy the process, not the end result. I like using BSD right now, building things, creating infrastructures. Once a job is done, it is not fun anymore. While it is being done, it is fun. And in this process, we try to make things better, giving back to the community. Don't buy the marketing machine FUD. Take a look in the past 10 years, Windows only got worse. It is far more complex, there is far too much software that no one can understand. Have you ever tried using Visual Studio .NET? And what about worms, viruses, and other junk. Everything is more and more complex, and doesn't really work any better. Of course, there are improvements, but at what price? The only advice I can give you is to do what you feel is right for you. Only than you will be happy. It is like buying a nice car, putting some options on it, but then thinking hmmm I really want the sunroof but it is in the group of options that is $1000 more. Nah I spent enough already. And then for the next 5 years you will be kicking yourself in the ass for not getting the damn sunroof. Life is short, make a decision you won't be sorry about later.. Bruno -- Reliable Business E-mail Hosting http://www.bizintegrators.com From bob Sun May 2 15:24:01 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 15:24:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 2, 2004, at 2:52 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: > Don't buy the marketing machine FUD. Take a look in the past 10 years, > Windows only got worse. It is far more complex, there is far too much > software that no one can understand. Have you ever tried using Visual > Studio .NET? And what about worms, viruses, and other junk. Everything > is more and more complex, and doesn't really work any better. Of > course, there are improvements, but at what price? Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for most things. Yeah, there is a learning curve, but Emacs and Vim have one too ;) -bob From sunny-ml Sun May 2 15:59:11 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 15:59:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <200405021559.11830.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 02 May 2004 03:24 pm, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, > but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for most > things. Are you comparing the binaries produced by VS.net to GCC's ? Or the user environment ? If that latter, than the comparison is certainly not fair. ?Comparing VS.net to Kdevelop would be much more fair. Sunny Dubey From mlists Sun May 2 16:01:38 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:01:38 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <20040502200138.GG23192@bizintegrators.com> On Sun, May 02, 2004 at 03:24:01PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 2, 2004, at 2:52 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: > > >Don't buy the marketing machine FUD. Take a look in the past 10 years, > >Windows only got worse. It is far more complex, there is far too much > >software that no one can understand. Have you ever tried using Visual > >Studio .NET? And what about worms, viruses, and other junk. Everything > >is more and more complex, and doesn't really work any better. Of > >course, there are improvements, but at what price? > > Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, > but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for most > things. Yeah, there is a learning curve, but Emacs and Vim have one > too ;) Maybe I did give up too soon. I don't have a life to spend on learning how to use it. But hey, I'm pretty biased.. :) Great if it works for you. It is fine that it beats gcc, gcc runs on many systems, so there are tradeoffs. From bob Sun May 2 16:11:05 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:11:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <200405021559.11830.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405021559.11830.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 2, 2004, at 3:59 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Sunday 02 May 2004 03:24 pm, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, >> but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for >> most >> things. > > Are you comparing the binaries produced by VS.net to GCC's ? Or the > user > environment ? Both. > If that latter, than the comparison is certainly not fair. ?Comparing > VS.net > to Kdevelop would be much more fair. And it still wins ;) -bob From mspitze1 Sun May 2 16:38:34 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 16:38:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405021559.11830.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20040502163834.381f1c3e@bogomips.optonline.net> On Sun, 02 May 2004 16:11:05 -0400 Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 2, 2004, at 3:59 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > > On Sunday 02 May 2004 03:24 pm, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > > >> Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows > >developer,> but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc > >toolchain for > most > >> things. > > > > Are you comparing the binaries produced by VS.net to GCC's ? Or the > > user > > environment ? > > Both. > > > If that latter, than the comparison is certainly not fair. > > ?Comparing VS.net > > to Kdevelop would be much more fair. > > And it still wins ;) > > -bob not if I want 1 set of tools for windows and bsd and linux and solaris and hp-ux .... marc > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From tilly Sun May 2 17:59:23 2004 From: tilly (Tilly) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 17:59:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions Message-ID: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> Hey Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. IT kind of gets annoying going to the directory of the port and instal lthe aplication. Is their a program where i type )program executable here) mysql-server. Thanks Tilly From sunny-ml Sun May 2 18:07:35 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:07:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <200405021807.35065.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 02 May 2004 05:59 pm, Tilly wrote: > Hey > > Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. IT kind of gets annoying > going to the directory of the port and instal lthe aplication. Is their a > program where i type )program executable here) mysql-server. IIRC you can do this with cvsup As always, FreeBSD Diary has a great page on it: ? http://www.freebsddiary.org/ports.php Sunny Dubey From pete Sun May 2 18:09:21 2004 From: pete (pete at nomadlogic.org) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <33358.24.215.159.2.1083535761.squirrel@24.215.159.2> > > > Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, > but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for most > things. i thought Visual Studio .NET was an IDE with the windows compiler intergrated into it. and if i'm not mistaken, gcc stands for Gnu Compiler Collection which is not an IDE. -pete ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Sun May 2 18:13:27 2004 From: pete (pete at nomadlogic.org) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> > Hey > > Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. my understanding of emerge and gentoo's portage system was to bring a ports like system to GNU/Linux. so it's likely most of the behaviour you are used to from portage is avail in ports. if you want a more apt like system you want to read the man page for pkg_add. hope this get's you pointed in the right direction. -pete ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From tilly Sun May 2 18:26:24 2004 From: tilly (Tilly) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:26:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> Message-ID: <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> Hey Yea i see a lot of similiarities between ports and ports. But with portage all i needed to do was emerge (package name) with out going into the directory was located and i could do emerge sync which will update portage. With ports i need to go into the directory where the port is actually located and in some cases i need to get more ports to solve the dependency because the port is not on the machine. It is kind of annoying sometimes. Tilly ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Tilly" Cc: Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] noob questions > > > Hey > > > > Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. > > my understanding of emerge and gentoo's portage system was to bring a > ports like system to GNU/Linux. so it's likely most of the behaviour you > are used to from portage is avail in ports. if you want a more apt like > system you want to read the man page for pkg_add. > > hope this get's you pointed in the right direction. > > -pete > > > ~~~oO00Oo~~~ > Pete Wright > email: pete at nomadlogic.org > mobile: 917.415.9866 > web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete > From tilly Sun May 2 18:33:42 2004 From: tilly (Tilly) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:33:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY><33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> OK forgot some stuff too, Some other things about portage is that i can update every package that needs to be up date which was emerge -u world. That was another nice thing and it also doesnt put the tarball in the folder where the ebuild is. It puts it in a a tmp folder. Tilly P.S. Their are probalyl more things. From sunny-ml Sun May 2 18:39:21 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:39:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <200405021839.22209.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 02 May 2004 06:33 pm, Tilly wrote: > OK forgot some stuff too, > > Some other things about portage is that i can update every package that > needs to be up date which was emerge -u world. That was another nice > thing and it also doesnt put the tarball in the folder where the ebuild > is. It puts it in a a tmp folder. http://dev.gentoo.org/~g2boojum/bsd.html seems like a time-suck, but hey ... might just float your boat Sunny Dubey From mspitze1 Sun May 2 18:45:01 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 18:45:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <20040502184501.43a33d5f@bogomips.optonline.net> On Sun, 02 May 2004 18:26:24 -0400 Tilly wrote: > Hey > > Yea i see a lot of similiarities between ports and ports. But with > portage all i needed to do was emerge (package name) with out going > into the directory was located and i could do emerge sync which will > update portage. With ports i need to go into the directory where the > port is actually located and in some cases i need to get more ports to > solve the dependency because the port is not on the machine. It is > kind of annoying sometimes. look into portupgrade marc > > Tilly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Tilly" > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 6:13 PM > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] noob questions > > > > > > > Hey > > > > > > Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. > > > > my understanding of emerge and gentoo's portage system was to bring > > a ports like system to GNU/Linux. so it's likely most of the > > behaviour you are used to from portage is avail in ports. if you > > want a more apt like system you want to read the man page for > > pkg_add. > > > > hope this get's you pointed in the right direction. > > > > -pete > > > > > > ~~~oO00Oo~~~ > > Pete Wright > > email: pete at nomadlogic.org > > mobile: 917.415.9866 > > web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From pete Sun May 2 19:38:21 2004 From: pete (pete at nomadlogic.org) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY><33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <33612.24.215.159.2.1083541101.squirrel@24.215.159.2> > OK forgot some stuff too, > > Some other things about portage is that i can update every package that > needs to be up date which was emerge -u world. i would seriously check out all of the relevant documentation in the FreeBSD handbook before assuming that FreeBSD does not have these tools that you are looking for. hint, check out "make world". >That was another nice thing > and it also doesnt put the tarball in the folder where the ebuild is. It > puts it in a a tmp folder. hrm...not too sure that keeping it in a small /tmp partition is the right place to track source code. anyway, i'm pretty sure this behaviour can be modified. again i'd check out the handbook and the man pages for ports. the BSD man pages are a very good reference, in my experience they are better maintained, and have more info, than the GNU man and info systems. -pete > > Tilly > > P.S. Their are probalyl more things. > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Sun May 2 21:05:46 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 21:05:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <33358.24.215.159.2.1083535761.squirrel@24.215.159.2> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <33358.24.215.159.2.1083535761.squirrel@24.215.159.2> Message-ID: <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 2, 2004, at 6:09 PM, pete at nomadlogic.org wrote: >> Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, >> but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for >> most >> things. > > i thought Visual Studio .NET was an IDE with the windows compiler > intergrated into it. and if i'm not mistaken, gcc stands for Gnu > Compiler > Collection which is not an IDE. The IDE and debugger in VS.NET, in my experience, is much more feature complete and reliable than anything equivalent in the open source world. Someone highly experienced in something like Emacs or Eclipse can probably achieve the same or better productivity for writing regular 'ol code, but there's one heck of a learning curve. What most people probably miss about the VS.NET IDE at first glance is the integration with their other stuff: debugging/developing SQL Server databases and stored procedures, local and remote debugging of IIS (and other COM/DCOM type environments), JScript debugging, etc. Microsoft's compilers are more efficient and produce more efficient code than GCC on x86. The C++ 'support' is a little different, but most people avoid doing the sort of magic that breaks or otherwise confuses C++ compilers. g++ is not perfect either, I've seen correct C++ code cause g++ to segfault. That said, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here. I do most of my development these days on OS X (targeting several platforms, but sometimes just OS X) with Python, GCC, Vim and Xcode/Interface Builder.. but I've used Microsoft's tools and they are much better than any of you are giving them credit for when you're developing for their platform with their technologies. It's pretty much the same story with Apple's tools, but in many cases they're just lipstick on a pig (gcc/gdb). Compilation is slow, it produces slow code (in comparison to CodeWarrior or XL), and the debugger in Xcode is just a frontend to GDB so it can be expected to crash or produce incorrect results once you start using any of its advanced features. -bob From pete Sun May 2 21:16:59 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 21:16:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <33358.24.215.159.2.1083535761.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 2, 2004, at 6:09 PM, pete at nomadlogic.org wrote: > >>> Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows developer, >>> but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for most >>> things. >> >> >> i thought Visual Studio .NET was an IDE with the windows compiler >> intergrated into it. and if i'm not mistaken, gcc stands for Gnu >> Compiler >> Collection which is not an IDE. > > > The IDE and debugger in VS.NET, in my experience, is much more feature > complete and reliable than anything equivalent in the open source > world. Someone highly experienced in something like Emacs or Eclipse > can probably achieve the same or better productivity for writing > regular 'ol code, but there's one heck of a learning curve. What most > people probably miss about the VS.NET IDE at first glance is the > integration with their other stuff: debugging/developing SQL Server > databases and stored procedures, local and remote debugging of IIS > (and other COM/DCOM type environments), JScript debugging, etc. > that's really interesting, i spend most of my time being a sys admin and have always had problems debugging running systems on Win32 compared to unix. that is obviously coming from a different perspective than a programmer tho... > Microsoft's compilers are more efficient and produce more efficient > code than GCC on x86. The C++ 'support' is a little different, but > most people avoid doing the sort of magic that breaks or otherwise > confuses C++ compilers. g++ is not perfect either, I've seen correct > C++ code cause g++ to segfault. yea no wonder so many people use QT etc... > > That said, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here. I do most > of my development these days on OS X (targeting several platforms, but > sometimes just OS X) with Python, GCC, Vim and Xcode/Interface > Builder.. but I've used Microsoft's tools and they are much better > than any of you are giving them credit for when you're developing for > their platform with their technologies. It's pretty much the same > story with Apple's tools, but in many cases they're just lipstick on a > pig (gcc/gdb). Compilation is slow, it produces slow code (in > comparison to CodeWarrior or XL), and the debugger in Xcode is just a > frontend to GDB so it can be expected to crash or produce incorrect > results once you start using any of its advanced features. > that's really interesting. i've been very interested in Xcode, but have not had a chance to check it out. what other alternative compilers could apple use to get away from gcc? does ibm produce a compiler that apple could adopt on the ppc64 chip? -pete From bob Sun May 2 21:50:07 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 21:50:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <33358.24.215.159.2.1083535761.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <346254CD-9CA4-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 2, 2004, at 9:16 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> On May 2, 2004, at 6:09 PM, pete at nomadlogic.org wrote: >> >>>> Have YOU used Visual Studio .NET? I'm not often a windows >>>> developer, >>>> but when I am, it sure beats the hell out of the gcc toolchain for >>>> most >>>> things. >>> >>> >>> i thought Visual Studio .NET was an IDE with the windows compiler >>> intergrated into it. and if i'm not mistaken, gcc stands for Gnu >>> Compiler >>> Collection which is not an IDE. >> >> >> The IDE and debugger in VS.NET, in my experience, is much more >> feature complete and reliable than anything equivalent in the open >> source world. Someone highly experienced in something like Emacs or >> Eclipse can probably achieve the same or better productivity for >> writing regular 'ol code, but there's one heck of a learning curve. >> What most people probably miss about the VS.NET IDE at first glance >> is the integration with their other stuff: debugging/developing SQL >> Server databases and stored procedures, local and remote debugging of >> IIS (and other COM/DCOM type environments), JScript debugging, etc. >> > that's really interesting, i spend most of my time being a sys admin > and have always had problems debugging running systems on Win32 > compared to unix. that is obviously coming from a different > perspective than a programmer tho... That's something else entirely. I'm not even sure I would call it debugging, but I can't think of a better word for it right now. >> Microsoft's compilers are more efficient and produce more efficient >> code than GCC on x86. The C++ 'support' is a little different, but >> most people avoid doing the sort of magic that breaks or otherwise >> confuses C++ compilers. g++ is not perfect either, I've seen correct >> C++ code cause g++ to segfault. > > yea no wonder so many people use QT etc... Which works perfectly well with many different compilers, including both MSVC and GCC, so obviously they aren't using the kind of magic I was talking about. What's your point? >> That said, I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here. I do most >> of my development these days on OS X (targeting several platforms, >> but sometimes just OS X) with Python, GCC, Vim and Xcode/Interface >> Builder.. but I've used Microsoft's tools and they are much better >> than any of you are giving them credit for when you're developing for >> their platform with their technologies. It's pretty much the same >> story with Apple's tools, but in many cases they're just lipstick on >> a pig (gcc/gdb). Compilation is slow, it produces slow code (in >> comparison to CodeWarrior or XL), and the debugger in Xcode is just a >> frontend to GDB so it can be expected to crash or produce incorrect >> results once you start using any of its advanced features. >> > that's really interesting. i've been very interested in Xcode, but > have not had a chance to check it out. what other alternative > compilers could apple use to get away from gcc? does ibm produce a > compiler that apple could adopt on the ppc64 chip? I highly doubt that Apple is going to license a compiler from anyone given the effort that they have put into GCC. However, you can set up an Xcode project that uses an alternative compiler or different build process. XL is IBM's compiler, by the way. It is pretty badass (but expensive) for ppc64. -bob From sunny-ml Sun May 2 22:02:58 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:02:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200405022202.58606.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 02 May 2004 09:16 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > that's really interesting. i've been very interested in Xcode, but have > not had a chance to check it out. what other alternative compilers > could apple use to get away from gcc? does ibm produce a compiler that > apple could adopt on the ppc64 chip? Yes and no my interest in the POWER architecture has led me to this knowldege .... Yes because IBM understands PPC like its no-one's business, and because XLC (the actual compiler suite) has been customized for OS-X by IBM (and some other company, whos name escapes me). The compiler is somewhat expensive, propiertary, and obviously lacks all the advantages of a FLOSS app. Yet it is compatible with the GNU, and supports PPC64 much better than gcc does. OTOH Apple has a great number of reasons not to switch. The primary being that all the FLOSS code Apple takes is written and tested under the GNU tools. Therefore using another compiler would only add to the variables of possible bug sources. Sunny Dubey From pete Sun May 2 22:22:01 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:22:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <346254CD-9CA4-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <20040502185236.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <443604DC-9C6E-11D8-8E13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <33358.24.215.159.2.1083535761.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> <346254CD-9CA4-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <4095ACC9.3090103@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > On May 2, 2004, at 9:16 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Bob Ippolito wrote: >> >>> >> that's really interesting, i spend most of my time being a sys admin >> and have always had problems debugging running systems on Win32 >> compared to unix. that is obviously coming from a different >> perspective than a programmer tho... > > > That's something else entirely. I'm not even sure I would call it > debugging, but I can't think of a better word for it right now. heh...how 'bout banging head against wall ;) > >> >> yea no wonder so many people use QT etc... > > > Which works perfectly well with many different compilers, including > both MSVC and GCC, so obviously they aren't using the kind of magic I > was talking about. What's your point? none...sorry thinking outloud. > > I highly doubt that Apple is going to license a compiler from anyone > given the effort that they have put into GCC. However, you can set up > an Xcode project that uses an alternative compiler or different build > process. XL is IBM's compiler, by the way. It is pretty badass (but > expensive) for ppc64. cool i'll have to check that out. i don't know much about coding on osX...yet ;) -pete From pete Sun May 2 22:23:25 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:23:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <200405022202.58606.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <02632AB8-9C9E-11D8-A4AF-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40959D8B.7040109@nomadlogic.org> <200405022202.58606.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <4095AD1D.2050306@nomadlogic.org> Sunny Dubey wrote: >On Sunday 02 May 2004 09:16 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > > > >>that's really interesting. i've been very interested in Xcode, but have >>not had a chance to check it out. what other alternative compilers >>could apple use to get away from gcc? does ibm produce a compiler that >>apple could adopt on the ppc64 chip? >> >> > >Yes and no > >my interest in the POWER architecture has led me to this knowldege .... > >Yes because IBM understands PPC like its no-one's business, and because XLC >(the actual compiler suite) has been customized for OS-X by IBM (and some >other company, whos name escapes me). The compiler is somewhat expensive, >propiertary, and obviously lacks all the advantages of a FLOSS app. Yet it >is compatible with the GNU, and supports PPC64 much better than gcc does. > >OTOH Apple has a great number of reasons not to switch. The primary being >that all the FLOSS code Apple takes is written and tested under the GNU >tools. Therefore using another compiler would only add to the variables of >possible bug sources. > > this seems pretty similar to the Intel compiler suite situation. altho i assume the intel suite is alot cheaper. would that be a valid comparison? -pete From sunny-ml Sun May 2 22:48:04 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:48:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] hand wringing In-Reply-To: <4095AD1D.2050306@nomadlogic.org> References: <20040502134109.7734abb0@genoverly.com> <200405022202.58606.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4095AD1D.2050306@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200405022248.04965.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 02 May 2004 10:23 pm, you wrote: > this seems pretty similar to the Intel compiler suite situation. altho > i assume the intel suite is alot cheaper. would that be a valid > comparison? Maybe The Intel compiler is much better than GCC. ?But I don't even remember it being ported to any of the *BSD. ?Additionally, I wonder what type of AMD64 support it will have (maybe Intel's bastardized version of amd64?). I'm no compiler expert, and these are my two cents :^) Sunny Dubey From mlists Mon May 3 01:22:52 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 01:22:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <20040503052252.GI23192@bizintegrators.com> On Sun, May 02, 2004 at 06:26:24PM -0400, Tilly wrote: > Hey > > Yea i see a lot of similiarities between ports and ports. But with portage > all i needed to do was emerge (package name) with out going into the > directory was located and i could do emerge sync which will update portage. > With ports i need to go into the directory where the port is actually > located and in some cases i need to get more ports to solve the dependency > because the port is not on the machine. It is kind of annoying sometimes. > You could get all the ports for example, then you wouldn't need to get one by one. Get entire /usr/ports, and make install of a port will do dependencies for you. cd /usr/ports/something/dir is not very difficult for me, and I doubt this will every change just so you can type it from somewhere else. You could also do pkg_add from ftp site and it will get all dependencies for you as well. The way to go with this is to adapt to the ports system, not to try to make it look like something else. -bruno From jromero Mon May 3 05:21:30 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 05:21:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail Message-ID: Running Freebsd 4.9 with jail enabled. Ping doesn't seem to work. I get: ping: socket: Operation not permitted Anybody know why this happens?? From lists Mon May 3 08:53:47 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:53:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <20040503085347.2a4e5cbd@delinux.abwatley.com> On Sun, 2 May 2004 17:59:23 -0400 "Tilly" wrote: > > Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. > Did anybody mention 'portsman'. That is what I use. -- --- From jschauma Mon May 3 09:30:32 2004 From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:30:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040503133032.GA22605@netmeister.org> Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > > Running Freebsd 4.9 with jail enabled. Ping doesn't seem to work. I get: > > ping: socket: Operation not permitted > > Anybody know why this happens?? The ping in the jail is not setuid? -Jan -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040503/3dc9d760/attachment.bin From hans Mon May 3 09:30:16 2004 From: hans (Hans Zaunere) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 06:30:16 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8701C4B3A3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org > [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Jan Schaumann > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 9:31 AM > To: talk at lists.nycbug.org > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail > > Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > > > > > Running Freebsd 4.9 with jail enabled. Ping doesn't seem to > work. I get: > > > > ping: socket: Operation not permitted > > > > Anybody know why this happens?? Processes within a jail can't open raw sockets. Thus, traceroute and ping won't work. > The ping in the jail is not setuid? Won't make any difference; this is enforced by the kernel as a special case when the process is marked as jailed. The UID doesn't have an effect here. H From pete Mon May 3 09:34:27 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 09:34:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <20040503052252.GI23192@bizintegrators.com> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> <20040503052252.GI23192@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <40964A63.6070008@nomadlogic.org> mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: >You could also do pkg_add from ftp site and it will get all >dependencies for you as well. > > > i've grown fond of "pkg_add -r my_package" which will download my_package and all dependencies as well much like "apt-get install" if i remember correctly...don't have a man handy right now. other nice FreeBSD software management utils.(from the handbook which is avail free at http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html) pkg_info (will tell you what packages you have installed) this is helpfull for ports: $ cd /usr/ports $ make index now you can search for specfic ports so you don't have to search /usr/ports $ make search key=foo | less and finally, i think this was mentioned: portupgrade (this is will upgrade a installed port, or your whole ports tree. i'd read the Handbook on this one) hope this get's you interested. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From trish Mon May 3 12:11:37 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 12:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <200405021807.35065.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <200405021807.35065.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20040503121120.R28379@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Sun, 2 May 2004, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Sunday 02 May 2004 05:59 pm, Tilly wrote: > > Hey > > > > Is their something like apt, emerge, for ports. IT kind of gets annoying > > going to the directory of the port and instal lthe aplication. Is their a > > program where i type )program executable here) mysql-server. > > IIRC you can do this with cvsup > > As always, FreeBSD Diary has a great page on it: ? > http://www.freebsddiary.org/ports.php > > Sunny Dubey pkg_add -r is your friend. -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From trish Mon May 3 12:13:19 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 12:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] noob questions In-Reply-To: <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <001001c43090$bb0f9140$6301a8c0@TILLY><33359.24.215.159.2.1083536007.squirrel@24.215.159.2> <004401c43094$80a7f340$6301a8c0@TILLY> <005001c43095$85fe9190$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <20040503121243.I28379@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Sun, 2 May 2004, Tilly wrote: > OK forgot some stuff too, > > Some other things about portage is that i can update every package that > needs to be up date which was emerge -u world. That was another nice thing > and it also doesnt put the tarball in the folder where the ebuild is. It > puts it in a a tmp folder. > > Tilly > > P.S. Their are probalyl more things. > again, the tools are there.... cvsup set up correctly will update your ports tree, portupgrade, etc. -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From trish Mon May 3 12:15:37 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 12:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8701C4B3A3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8701C4B3A3@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Message-ID: <20040503121453.R28379@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Mon, 3 May 2004, Hans Zaunere wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org > > [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Jan Schaumann > > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 9:31 AM > > To: talk at lists.nycbug.org > > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail > > > > Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > > > > > > > > Running Freebsd 4.9 with jail enabled. Ping doesn't seem to > > work. I get: > > > > > > ping: socket: Operation not permitted > > > > > > Anybody know why this happens?? > > Processes within a jail can't open raw sockets. Thus, traceroute and > ping won't work. > > > The ping in the jail is not setuid? > > Won't make any difference; this is enforced by the kernel as a special > case when the process is marked as jailed. The UID doesn't have an > effect here. > > H somewhere theres a patch for this we use to do adns lookups from ircd.... look for adns jail freebsd 4 and ircd on google. -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From hans Mon May 3 12:30:41 2004 From: hans (Hans Zaunere) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:30:41 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question about jail Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F8701C4B54C@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> > somewhere theres a patch for this we use to do adns lookups > from ircd.... Probably here: http://garage.freebsd.pl/ He's the FreeBSD patch master H From george Tue May 4 18:15:40 2004 From: george (G. Rosamond) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 18:15:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Daemon News EZine April Message-ID: Yeah, I know it's May now. . .but the new EZine is out. http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200404/ Anyone interested in submitting an article should contact myself or Chris Coleman, who's on the list. Again, we're waiting on the newest print one to come out also. Hopefully we'll have it for BSDCan. See everyone tomorrow. . .remember 6:30 pm at Tekserve. From jromero Tue May 4 18:51:49 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 18:51:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache question Message-ID: <7593b7ef776dac42a9c348b12571689d@romero3000.com> Running a freebsd 4.9 hosting server with Plesk 7.0. Apache sometimes fails to start giving the following message in the error logs: critical_create(): semget() failed: No space left on device Any ideas????? From mlists Tue May 4 19:38:19 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:38:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache question In-Reply-To: <7593b7ef776dac42a9c348b12571689d@romero3000.com> References: <7593b7ef776dac42a9c348b12571689d@romero3000.com> Message-ID: <20040504233819.GS23192@bizintegrators.com> On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 06:51:49PM -0400, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > > Running a freebsd 4.9 hosting server with Plesk 7.0. > Apache sometimes fails to start giving the following message in the > error logs: > > critical_create(): semget() failed: No space left on device > It sounds like your system ran out of semaphores or semaphore sets. From george Wed May 5 08:11:33 2004 From: george (G. Rosamond) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:11:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X question Message-ID: I have a client that moved location and changed its internal network addresses. The desktops automatically are attempting to reconnect to the OS 9 file server's old internal address. How do I remove/change this, which happens as soon as the user attempts to "connect to server"? g From ycui Thu May 6 11:07:17 2004 From: ycui (Paul Cui) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:07:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200405061107.17997.ycui@bloomberg.com> I don't know the answer to this question, but from last night's talk at the bar, I think someone already replied Grorge with the answer. just want to let people know that it will be nice to copy the list when replying to a question posted on the list. this way, we all learn, not just George :) P On Wednesday 05 May 2004 08:11 am, G. Rosamond wrote: > I have a client that moved location and changed its internal network > addresses. > > The desktops automatically are attempting to reconnect to the OS 9 file > server's old internal address. > > How do I remove/change this, which happens as soon as the user attempts > to "connect to server"? > > g > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From its Thu May 6 11:59:44 2004 From: its (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:59:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X question In-Reply-To: <200405061107.17997.ycui@bloomberg.com> References: <200405061107.17997.ycui@bloomberg.com> Message-ID: <6429AF6B-9F76-11D8-889D-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> On May 6, 2004, at 11:07 AM, Paul Cui wrote: > I don't know the answer to this question, but from last night's > talk at the bar, I think someone already replied Grorge with the > answer. just > want to let people know that it will be nice to copy the list when > replying > to a question posted on the list. this way, we all learn, not just > George :) > > P > > On Wednesday 05 May 2004 08:11 am, G. Rosamond wrote: >> I have a client that moved location and changed its internal network >> addresses. >> >> The desktops automatically are attempting to reconnect to the OS 9 >> file >> server's old internal address. >> >> How do I remove/change this, which happens as soon as the user >> attempts >> to "connect to server"? >> >> g >> My bad, here is what I replied with: Depending on whether you are dealing with managed clients or not, you might try the following: 1) Get rid of Directory Services Prefs on the client computers at /Library/Preferences/DirectoryServices 2) If using MCX and 10.2, you can trash the MCX prefs using Netinfo -Brad From lists Thu May 6 16:18:51 2004 From: lists (Francisco Reyes) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] How was the meeting? Message-ID: <20040506161716.A39054@zoraida.natserv.net> I couldn't make it to the meeting 5-5 and I REALLY, REALLY wanted to go since I am now consulting full time to hear more on this topic. Anyone care to comment on the meeting? From ycui Thu May 6 16:43:59 2004 From: ycui (Paul Cui) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:43:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] How was the meeting? In-Reply-To: <20040506161716.A39054@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20040506161716.A39054@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <200405061643.59469.ycui@bloomberg.com> On Thursday 06 May 2004 04:18 pm, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I couldn't make it to the meeting 5-5 and I REALLY, REALLY wanted to go > since I am now consulting full time to hear more on this topic. > > Anyone care to comment on the meeting? In my opinion, it's the best meeting we had so far. I learned quite a few things, it's hard to tell you everything that Wes and everyone else talked about. I think your best bet is to wait for the video to come online :) btw. Wes, I saw you had some notes that you were looking at during the meeting, do you want to share it with us.. thanks. -P From George Thu May 6 17:20:41 2004 From: George (G. Rosamond) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] How was the meeting? In-Reply-To: <200405061643.59469.ycui@bloomberg.com> References: <20040506161716.A39054@zoraida.natserv.net> <200405061643.59469.ycui@bloomberg.com> Message-ID: <57441.64.81.202.91.1083878441.squirrel@mail.sddi.net> A wise person once said. . . Paul Cui > On Thursday 06 May 2004 04:18 pm, Francisco Reyes wrote: >> I couldn't make it to the meeting 5-5 and I REALLY, REALLY wanted to >> go since I am now consulting full time to hear more on this topic. >> >> Anyone care to comment on the meeting? > > In my opinion, it's the best meeting we had so far. I learned quite a > few things, it's hard to tell you everything that Wes and everyone > else talked about. I think your best bet is to wait for the video to > come online :) > > btw. Wes, I saw you had some notes that you were looking at during the > meeting, do you want to share it with us.. thanks. Quantitatively, it was the smallest meeting, with about 35 different people. Qualitatively, I agree that the presentations and discussions were among the best. I expected the meeting to be smaller than the usual 45 people or so, as it's a relatively narrow topic not pertaining to everyone. Nevertheless, the discussion was brilliant. . .I learned an enormous amount. I think it would be great if Wes put up his notes, and hopefully Ike will be getting up the video of last night and the other meetings. A meeting topic that hit me after last night, particularly since Marc didn't get a full chance to do his spiel, is on ports and packages. One speaker reviews ports, portupgrade, pkg_src, etc. Then we have three speakers cover some areas with a couple of ports highlighting. . .say development, network management and www. And maybe a latter meeting about desktop related ports. Thoughts? From lists Thu May 6 17:25:29 2004 From: lists (Francisco Reyes) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] How was the meeting? In-Reply-To: <200405061643.59469.ycui@bloomberg.com> References: <20040506161716.A39054@zoraida.natserv.net> <200405061643.59469.ycui@bloomberg.com> Message-ID: <20040506172202.X39383@zoraida.natserv.net> On Thu, 6 May 2004, Paul Cui wrote: > In my opinion, it's the best meeting we had so far. Although I am glad to read that, it's awfull I could not make it. Right now I have a client that is keeping me busy enough that with just him I can pay all my bills. I am just concerned that in a month or two he won't have so much work so need to start looking for more clients. The client will still be around (have been doing work for him for 8 years and every month he had some work for me), but it just won't be as much as the last few months and perhaps this one. From george Thu May 6 20:42:07 2004 From: george (G. Rosamond) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:42:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting topics. . . Message-ID: Please provide some comments for the meeting topics listed below. And make suggestions for others. Using the Ports One part could be on using the ports system, portupgrade, pkg_src, etc. Then additional parts where a few people highlight some useful ports individually that are maybe less known. Speakers: Marc Spitzer and a couple of other people. Or maybe we could just have an ssh session where people just get up and show their favorite port for 10 minutes. Simon Lok on Wireless Hacking We could schedule him for August. He's a brilliant speaker who I saw at a NYLUG meeting a few years back, and his firm is an OpenBSD shop. Hans Zaunere on BAMP (BSD, Apache, MySQL and PHP) Our very own Hans. . . Trish will be speaking on some topic for July 7th. He's getting me details. Additionally, I don't know when, we'll be having Robert Watson of TrustedBSD and Michael Lucas of, uh, you know, everything. Hopefully, Dru Lavigne will also be in the city at some point. Plus we'd love to have Wasabi at some point, but we've had inconsistent communications. BSDCan should be a great opportunity to get some additional speakers. From its Fri May 7 09:47:57 2004 From: its (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 09:47:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meeting topics. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25E38B70-A02D-11D8-A679-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> On May 6, 2004, at 8:42 PM, G. Rosamond wrote: > Please provide some comments for the meeting topics listed below. And > make suggestions for others. > > Using the Ports > One part could be on using the ports system, portupgrade, pkg_src, etc. > Then additional parts where a few people highlight some useful ports > individually that are maybe less known. Speakers: Marc Spitzer and a > couple of other people. Or maybe we could just have an ssh session > where people just get up and show their favorite port for 10 minutes. Sounds good, I'd like to see the speaker(s) go over using ports on all the BSD's... > > Simon Lok on Wireless Hacking > We could schedule him for August. He's a brilliant speaker who I saw > at > a NYLUG meeting a few years back, and his firm is an OpenBSD shop. > This would be quite interesting. A follow-up meeting on wireless security options utilizing BSD would great too. > Hans Zaunere on BAMP (BSD, Apache, MySQL and PHP) > Our very own Hans. . . > I'd especially like to see some discussion on chrooted and jailed implementations of the above topics. > Trish will be speaking on some topic for July 7th. He's getting me > details. > anticipation is building... -Brad From lists Fri May 7 15:45:36 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:45:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Intel Fab Message-ID: <20040507154536.1ee3712a@delinux.abwatley.com> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1586655,00.asp Intel Labs' Natural Born Killer Technologies By Rob Enderle May 6, 2004 Virtual Machine PowerPC Killer. This one was easy. Intel showed a FreeBSD-based OS that was running on one processor, and then with some changes to the kernel, moved it to an x86-based architecture with no application or performance impact. This is architected at the hardware level, and the technology is actually in use by some small hosting companies. What was new was near-seamless driver support for the technology. Evidently, they have been working on this for some time. Up until now, they could move applications, but the drivers were a problem. Aside from the implications for Apple (with the means to move Mac OS X to an Intel-based platform), this technology would allow one machine to run Unix, Linux and Windows more easily, and without the typical overhead penalty from using a product like VMware. -- --- From bob Fri May 7 16:05:30 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:05:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Intel Fab In-Reply-To: <20040507154536.1ee3712a@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <20040507154536.1ee3712a@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: On May 7, 2004, at 3:45 PM, michael wrote: > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1586655,00.asp > > Intel Labs' Natural Born Killer Technologies > By Rob Enderle > May 6, 2004 > > Virtual Machine PowerPC Killer. > > This one was easy. Intel showed a FreeBSD-based OS that was running on > one processor, and then with some changes to the kernel, moved it to an > x86-based architecture with no application or performance impact. > This is architected at the hardware level, and the technology is > actually in use by some small hosting companies. > > What was new was near-seamless driver support for the technology. > Evidently, they have been working on this for some time. Up until now, > they could move applications, but the drivers were a problem. > > Aside from the implications for Apple (with the means to move Mac OS X > to an Intel-based platform), this technology would allow one machine to > run Unix, Linux and Windows more easily, and without the typical > overhead penalty from using a product like VMware. That article makes NO SENSE whatsoever! The Intel PR flunkie who wrote it for him must've been high. -bob From ike Fri May 7 16:38:02 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:38:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Intel Fab In-Reply-To: References: <20040507154536.1ee3712a@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <6F3B50CA-A066-11D8-ADA4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup All, On May 7, 2004, at 4:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> Intel Labs' Natural Born Killer Technologies >> By Rob Enderle >> May 6, 2004 >> >> Virtual Machine PowerPC Killer. > > That article makes NO SENSE whatsoever! The Intel PR flunkie who > wrote it for him must've been high. > > -bob I'm gonna have to say I agree with that sentiment- insomuch as I read the article, sober as can be, and chalk it up to the usual market-bashing of ppc and Apple in general, seeing as in the same article they mention an 'iPod Killer'. Here's the crux of what continues to make me grin- for the last 20 years, the business heads on wall st. haven't been able to do anything but try to 'kill' apple products, while Apple (and others) continue to simply focus on innovation. (innovation here is arguable, I know, but I don't want to argue that). So, I don't really care if the PPC (up through the G4 era) is now being truly threatened- more fun stuff is on the table... - My .02? More interesting read IMHO, (with regard to IBM's recent 'power' platform architecture): http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1080794898.html Rocket- .ike From jromero Fri May 7 17:27:37 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:27:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question Message-ID: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> hosting multiple virtual domains on single ip address on apache 1.3 w/ mod_ssl and freebsd 4.9. having ssl certificate troubles. Is it possible to give each virtual domain its own ssl certificate even if they share the same ip address??? from what i understand, you can only use one ssl certificate per ip?? is this right?? does anyone have any suggestion besides hosting the ssl enabled domains on separate ip addresses?? From sunny-ml Fri May 7 17:33:44 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 17:33:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question In-Reply-To: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> References: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> Message-ID: <200405071733.44818.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Friday 07 May 2004 05:27 pm, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > hosting multiple virtual domains on single ip address on apache 1.3 w/ > mod_ssl and freebsd 4.9. having ssl certificate troubles. Is it possible > to give each virtual domain its own ssl certificate even if they share > the same ip address??? no > from what i understand, you can only use one ssl > certificate per ip?? is this right?? yes > does anyone have any suggestion > besides hosting the ssl enabled domains on separate ip addresses?? No. But if you do get multiple IPs, hit up the following http://www.incyte-studios.com/ssl.htm Sunny Dubey PS: whats up with the non auto-reply to list ? From ycui Fri May 7 17:46:33 2004 From: ycui (Paul Cui) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 17:46:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question In-Reply-To: <200405071733.44818.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> <200405071733.44818.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200405071746.33630.ycui@bloomberg.com> On Friday 07 May 2004 05:33 pm, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Friday 07 May 2004 05:27 pm, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > hosting multiple virtual domains on single ip address on apache 1.3 w/ > > mod_ssl and freebsd 4.9. having ssl certificate troubles. Is it possible > > to give each virtual domain its own ssl certificate even if they share > > the same ip address??? > > no ??? sure you can give each virtual domain its own cert... > > from what i understand, you can only use one ssl > > certificate per ip?? is this right?? > > yes certificate works with common names (CN), as long as your CN in the cert is different, then you can have one cert with each virtual domain (and the CN in the cert has to match the virtual domain.) in apache config, in each virtual domain section, you define where is the corresponding cert and other related things. > > does anyone have any suggestion > > besides hosting the ssl enabled domains on separate ip addresses?? > > No. > > But if you do get multiple IPs, hit up the following > > http://www.incyte-studios.com/ssl.htm > > Sunny Dubey > > PS: whats up with the non auto-reply to list ? > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From mlists Fri May 7 18:05:41 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 18:05:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question In-Reply-To: <200405071746.33630.ycui@bloomberg.com> References: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> <200405071733.44818.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <200405071746.33630.ycui@bloomberg.com> Message-ID: <20040507220541.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 05:46:33PM -0400, Paul Cui wrote: > > > from what i understand, you can only use one ssl > > > certificate per ip?? is this right?? > > > > yes > > certificate works with common names (CN), as long as your CN in the cert > is different, then you can have one cert with each virtual domain (and the > CN in the cert has to match the virtual domain.) > > in apache config, in each virtual domain section, you define where is the > corresponding cert and other related things. You also need to put each SSL cert on its own IP. Otherwise you will not get a consistent SSL state and your certs will "cross" your (domain) names. -bruno From ycui Fri May 7 18:21:18 2004 From: ycui (Paul Cui) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 18:21:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question In-Reply-To: <20040507220541.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> References: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> <200405071746.33630.ycui@bloomberg.com> <20040507220541.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <200405071821.18338.ycui@bloomberg.com> > > You also need to put each SSL cert on its own IP. Otherwise you will > not get a consistent SSL state and your certs will "cross" your > (domain) names. I don't understand what you mean by " cross your domain) names ". do you mean that because all ssl traffic go through port 443, and that will confuse mod_ssl to not know which cert to use if all destination IP are same.. but SSL cert handling in mod_ssl do not depend on destination IP. it only cares about the CN and hostname in the URL. -Paul From mlists Fri May 7 18:53:21 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 18:53:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question In-Reply-To: <200405071821.18338.ycui@bloomberg.com> References: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> <200405071746.33630.ycui@bloomberg.com> <20040507220541.GE23192@bizintegrators.com> <200405071821.18338.ycui@bloomberg.com> Message-ID: <20040507225321.GH23192@bizintegrators.com> On Fri, May 07, 2004 at 06:21:18PM -0400, Paul Cui wrote: > > > > > You also need to put each SSL cert on its own IP. Otherwise you will > > not get a consistent SSL state and your certs will "cross" your > > (domain) names. > > I don't understand what you mean by " cross your domain) names ". do you mean > that because all ssl traffic go through port 443, and that will confuse > mod_ssl to not know which cert to use if all destination IP are same.. but > SSL cert handling in mod_ssl do not depend on destination IP. it only cares > about the CN and hostname in the URL. I mean this: you will go to http://www.blah1.com and get a cert for blah2.com. SSL is lower protocol than HTTP.. -bruno From lists Fri May 7 22:33:46 2004 From: lists (Francisco Reyes) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Troubleshooting CVSup. Message-ID: <20040507223132.R50125@zoraida.natserv.net> Any pointers on troubleshooting why CVS is not updating my sources? Last time I updated to stable was back in October 2003. Same cvsup file as last time, yet no data seems to be updated. I even deleted the UPDATING and README file to see if they would come back and it didn't. Thought it could be an issue with the particular mirror so tried another one with the same result. From george Fri May 7 22:44:08 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:44:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Troubleshooting CVSup. In-Reply-To: <20040507223132.R50125@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20040507223132.R50125@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <948770E4-A099-11D8-9C6E-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 7, 2004, at 10:33 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Any pointers on troubleshooting why CVS is not updating my sources? > > Last time I updated to stable was back in October 2003. Same cvsup > file as > last time, yet no data seems to be updated. I even deleted the UPDATING > and README file to see if they would come back and it didn't. > > Thought it could be an issue with the particular mirror so tried > another > one with the same result. > Could you give us some details. . . FreeBSD? What does your sup file look like? Post it. . . g ps cvs and cvsup are two different things. . . From lists Sat May 8 08:58:44 2004 From: lists (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Troubleshooting CVSup. In-Reply-To: <948770E4-A099-11D8-9C6E-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <20040507223132.R50125@zoraida.natserv.net> <948770E4-A099-11D8-9C6E-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040508084733.G6278@zoraida.natserv.net> On Fri, 7 May 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > Could you give us some details. . . That's what happens when on posts while tired. :-( > FreeBSD? Yes. I track stable. Last updated about a months ago. I thought it was longer, but just checked my /kernel and it is dated Apr 6. > What does your sup file look like? Post it. . . > ps cvs and cvsup are two different things. . . *default host=cvsup13.freebsd.org *default base=/usr *default prefix=/usr *default release=cvs tag=RELENG_4 *default delete use-rel-suffix ...... src-base src-bin src-contrib src-etc ..... And more.. tags. This sup file has been working for as long as I have been tracking 4.X stable. Can't imagine why it would stop working.. I checked that I have the latest cvsup program. Also tried a couple of hosts. The way I found something was wrong was that my UPDATING file was from Oct 2003. Should I just try deleting my /usr/src tree and only keep my kernel configuration file? From lists Sat May 8 09:46:57 2004 From: lists (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 09:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Troubleshooting CVSup. In-Reply-To: <20040508084733.G6278@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20040507223132.R50125@zoraida.natserv.net> <948770E4-A099-11D8-9C6E-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040508084733.G6278@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <20040508093350.T24629@zoraida.natserv.net> On Sat, 8 May 2004, Francisco Reyes wrote: > The way I found something was wrong was that my UPDATING file was from Oct > 2003. Strange... >From /usr/src I did find . -exec ls -lT {} \; | grep 2004 | grep May And I see a number of files from May 2004 so it seems my update may be working. However I don't understand why my UPDATING file is from October. Looking around I see my file is revision 1.73.2.90 and on the web interface for CVS at the FreeBSD site the latest RELENG_4 for that file is Oct 2003, yet I see updates for 4_9 and 4_10. Doing a refresher course for myself I see at the docs ******* RELENG_4 The line of development for FreeBSD-4.X, also known as FreeBSD-STABLE. RELENG_4_10 The release branch for FreeBSD-4.10, used only for security advisories and other critical fixes. RELENG_4_9 The release branch for FreeBSD-4.9, used only for security advisories and other critical fixes. ******* So shouldn't RELENG_4 have a more up to date UPDATING file than 4_9 and 4_10? From george Sat May 8 10:37:39 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:37:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mini-ITX In-Reply-To: <20040508095218.I24629@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20040508095218.I24629@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <41830602-A0FD-11D8-A196-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 8, 2004, at 9:53 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > >> i picked up a mini-ITX (www.casetronic.com) recently, and was planning >> to build a bsd box of one variant or another. . . > > > Which one did you pick? 134? Yup. . . >> >> have tried net, free and open, but there's issues with the Via >> ethernet >> (vr0). > > What was the end result. It's been almost a month and a half so figure > you > probabl already decided on which OS to put on it for good.. Which one > did > you go with? Well, I tried Net, Free, Open and then even WinXP, but the motherboard nic didn't work. Same with some of the usb ports. Left it with the vendor (GCS) to update bios since they have a usb floppy and i don't. Still waiting on them for it. Have a decent USB 1.1 NIC that works well. . .it was only $20 or so. Will keep all informed. . .once the nic/usb issues are cleared up, the struggle with be with the CastleRock graphics card versus XFree. . . g From george Sat May 8 10:38:54 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:38:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mini-ITX In-Reply-To: <20040508095642.G24629@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20040508095642.G24629@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <6E5507A4-A0FD-11D8-A196-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 8, 2004, at 9:57 AM, Francisco wrote: > On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, G. Rosamond wrote: > >> i picked up a mini-ITX (www.casetronic.com) recently, and was planning >> to build a bsd box of one variant or another. . . > > Where did you buy it from? Casetronics doesn't seem to sell direct. > Which > distributor did you use? > General Computer & Services. . . 10 W. 37th Street, 5th floor. 212-594-1074. louis at gcserve.com g From george Sat May 8 10:41:23 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:41:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [dn-authors] May Issue Message-ID: > >> From: Chris Coleman >> Date: May 8, 2004 2:54:05 AM EDT >> To: dn-authors at daemonnews.org >> Subject: [dn-authors] May Issue >> >> Hi, >> >> I'll be going to BSDCan next week and I would like to publish the >> ezine upon my arrival home from it. So, that doesn't give us too >> much time to get things together for that issue. >> >> I have one article in hand. My editorial will be about BSDCan of >> course and that leaves 4+ articles to get in. I'm hoping for >> Daemon's Advocate (Probably Wes Peters), This month BSD by Sam Smith, >> Book Review by George Rosamond if he can get it done in time, and 1 >> to 3 more articles. >> >> The minimum I want is 6 and the max is 8 (or I start cutting into the >> next month's articles.) So I think it looks pretty good for next >> issue so far. >> >> Chris Coleman Editor in Chief >> Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org >> BSD Mall http://www.bsdmall.com >> Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dn-authors at daemonnews.org >> https://secure.daemonnews.org/mailman/listinfo/dn-authors > > Okay. . .here's a great opportunity. . . > > The variety of articles usuable is from the very basic to the most > complex. . . > > Why not try to throw something together. . . > > Article ideas, eg: > > Some really cool port that does something really cool. > > a BSD in your production or home environment > > General advocacy issues > > I'm doing a book review on Jacek Artmek (sp) on OpenBSD and pf. > > g > > > From george Sat May 8 18:01:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:01:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] lithium-ion batteries Message-ID: <3A6A6EE6-A13B-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Found this today about maintenance of lithium-ion batteries, common in laptops. Thought it might be of interest to others. . . http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm g From george Sat May 8 18:08:10 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:08:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] oops. .. Message-ID: <3184CC25-A13C-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Meant to send this one too. . . this is specific to Apple laptops for battery calibration. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86284 g From george Sat May 8 18:16:13 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:16:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] oops. .. In-Reply-To: References: <3184CC25-A13C-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <515FAEA7-A13D-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 8, 2004, at 6:12 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 8, 2004, at 6:08 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> this is specific to Apple laptops for battery calibration. >> >> http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86284 > > Yeah- one other thing that's good for battery life IMHO, be a FREAK > about taking out a power-supply and use it as much as possible- small > thing to plug in, pain in the but to replace a battery on a laptop > you've been using for a while... :) > > Rocket- > .ike I'm a bit confused about how you stated it. . you mean remove battery when using power adaptor? I think that's mentioned in the article somewhere. . . Great insight. . . tell the world. . .(you told me, not the list ;-) g From ike Sat May 8 19:36:16 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 19:36:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] oops. .. In-Reply-To: <515FAEA7-A13D-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <3184CC25-A13C-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <515FAEA7-A13D-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <803DEE90-A148-11D8-ADA4-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup G, All, On May 8, 2004, at 6:16 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 8, 2004, at 6:12 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> On May 8, 2004, at 6:08 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>> this is specific to Apple laptops for battery calibration. >>> >>> http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86284 >> >> Yeah- one other thing that's good for battery life IMHO, be a FREAK >> about taking out a power-supply and use it as much as possible- small >> thing to plug in, pain in the but to replace a battery on a laptop >> you've been using for a while... :) >> >> Rocket- >> .ike > > I'm a bit confused about how you stated it. . you mean remove battery > when using power adaptor? No no no- I meant using the power adapter out of habit keeps the battery running sane long after the applecare has run out... :) (with the battery plugged in :) > > I think that's mentioned in the article somewhere. . . > > Great insight. . . tell the world. . .(you told me, not the list ;-) My bad- I should make reply-all default :) Rocket- .ike From pastormac Sat May 8 21:01:22 2004 From: pastormac (Pastor Mac) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 21:01:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brief Intro In-Reply-To: <515FAEA7-A13D-11D8-84CE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <6391CD4F-A154-11D8-A684-00306577F390@macmail.com> Hi all-- I'm de-lurking for a moment to introduce myself as a very raw newbie in the world of *NIX-like OSs. Indeed, I am a church minister although for the moment I'm not currently serving a church but on and off have taken a number of computer science/IT classes and I've been hoping for an opportunity in network administration one day. I've been a Mac user for the past 12 years and last year acquired a Sawtooth G4 so that I could start using OS X. I've installed/played with a few distros of Linux on x86 but a couple months ago I surfed to the FreeBSD site and downloaded an ISO and installed it just to see how it compared. In short, I've been consuming any and all BSD related info/websites and have probably turned into zealot novice for BSD asking some fellow CS students at Calvin College to move to a more mature and secure environment:-). I found this list via the user group listing on the main FreeBSD website and subscribed to get a sense of the community in the tri-state area. I currently live in Grand Rapids, MI but will be relocating to Sussex, NJ in early June since the job market in west MI is simply awful. My wife's family is from the N. Haledon/Wyckoff area so I've gotten to know the neighborhood reasonably well. PTL for Hagstrom maps:-) What I'm hoping for is some kind soul on the list who has reasonable patience and lives in the northern NJ area who can mentor a newbie to craft a home server and learn how to do sysadmin work. On a related note, I realize the organization is geared to the 5 boroughs and I would like to participate and come to the various gatherings but Sussex to Midtown might be a stretch consistently. Is there a NJ sub-group? I will say the BSDCan event looks most cool but about 95% would likely be over my head for now. I hope I haven't interfered with existing discussions and I'll try to pay as much attention as possible to the discussions here so I can pick up a few nuggets along the way and try real hard not to be like the marketing guy in User Friendly. back to lurking... Pax, Mike McDonald Pastor Mac On OS X From george Sat May 8 21:10:49 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 21:10:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brief Intro In-Reply-To: <6391CD4F-A154-11D8-A684-00306577F390@macmail.com> References: <6391CD4F-A154-11D8-A684-00306577F390@macmail.com> Message-ID: On May 8, 2004, at 9:01 PM, Pastor Mac wrote: > Hi all-- > > I'm de-lurking for a moment to introduce myself as a very raw newbie > in the world of *NIX-like OSs. Indeed, I am a church minister > although for the moment I'm not currently serving a church but on and > off have taken a number of computer science/IT classes and I've been > hoping for an opportunity in network administration one day. I've > been a Mac user for the past 12 years and last year acquired a > Sawtooth G4 so that I could start using OS X. I've installed/played > with a few distros of Linux on x86 but a couple months ago I surfed to > the FreeBSD site and downloaded an ISO and installed it just to see > how it compared. In short, I've been consuming any and all BSD > related info/websites and have probably turned into zealot novice for > BSD asking some fellow CS students at Calvin College to move to a more > mature and secure environment:-). Sounds great Pastor Mac. Hopefully you find that our links on nycbug.org are useful. If you have any addtional ones that you particularly liked, send them to me or the list. > > I found this list via the user group listing on the main FreeBSD > website and subscribed to get a sense of the Glad they listed us. . . > community in the tri-state area. I currently live in Grand Rapids, MI > but will be relocating to Sussex, NJ in early June since the job > market in west MI is simply awful. My wife's family is from the N. > Haledon/Wyckoff area so I've gotten to know the neighborhood > reasonably well. PTL for Hagstrom maps:-) What I'm hoping for is some > kind soul on the list who has reasonable patience and lives in the > northern NJ area who can mentor a newbie to craft a home server There are a number of members in NJ. . .Hopefully there's one who has an afternoon free on a weekend to assist you. > and learn how to do sysadmin work. On a related note, I realize the > organization is geared to the 5 boroughs and I would like to > participate and come to the various gatherings but Sussex to Midtown > might be a stretch consistently. Is there a NJ sub-group? This group only started having meetings in January, so I think a NJ sub group might be a bit presumtuous. But the fact is that there are a good number of people in NJ, and it's not a crazy notion for the future. > > I will say the BSDCan event looks most cool but about 95% would likely > be over my head for now. I hope I haven't Maybe, maybe not. Osmosis does wonders. > interfered with existing discussions and I'll try to pay as much > attention as possible to the discussions here so I can pick up a few > nuggets along the way and try real hard not to be like the marketing > guy in User Friendly. Not worried about you 'interfering' as much as a few useful nuggets coming off the list. If we have the audience at some point, the talk list is at about 115 members, I think creating a new user list would be a good idea. > > back to lurking... > Pax, > > Mike McDonald > Pastor Mac > On OS X Feel free to ask questions. . .I think responding to questions forces people to provide answers that make sense. Particularly on issues they don't necessarily articulate very often. g From bsd Sun May 9 00:15:19 2004 From: bsd (Kevin Reiter) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:15:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brief Intro References: <6391CD4F-A154-11D8-A684-00306577F390@macmail.com> Message-ID: <001901c4357c$3dfec4a0$0800a8c0@hephaestus> > I currently live in Grand Rapids, MI but will be relocating to > Sussex, NJ in early June since the job market in west MI is simply > awful. My wife's family is from the N. Haledon/Wyckoff area so I've > gotten to know the neighborhood reasonably well. PTL for Hagstrom > maps:-) What I'm hoping for is some kind soul on the list who has > reasonable patience and lives in the northern NJ area who can mentor a > newbie to craft a home server and learn how to do sysadmin work. On a > related note, I realize the organization is geared to the 5 boroughs > and I would like to participate and come to the various gatherings but > Sussex to Midtown might be a stretch consistently. Is there a NJ > sub-group? I happen to live/work in Hawthorne (right next to Wycoff & North Haledon), and I'd be happy to spend time with you answering any questions you have, as well as showing you some tips and tricks I've picked up over the last few years. Feel free to drop me a line any time. -Kevin From jromero Sun May 9 00:19:12 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:19:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache ssl virtual domains on single IP In-Reply-To: <200405071757.25582.ycui@bloomberg.com> Message-ID: <572fd418144c7f4b960659aaaaafd314@romero3000.com> OK... This is what the mod_ssl FAQ says: Why can't I use SSL with name-based/non-IP-based virtual hosts??? [L] The reason is very technical. Actually it's some sort of a chicken and egg problem: The SSL protocol layer stays below the HTTP protocol layer and encapsulates HTTP. When an SSL connection (HTTPS) is established Apache/mod_ssl has to negotiate the SSL protocol parameters with the client. For this mod_ssl has to consult the configuration of the virtual server (for instance it has to look for the cipher suite, the server certificate, etc.). But in order to dispatch to the correct virtual server Apache has to know the Host HTTP header field. For this the HTTP request header has to be read. This cannot be done before the SSL handshake is finished. But the information is already needed at the SSL handshake phase. Bingo! From trish Sun May 9 12:09:29 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 12:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] quick apache question In-Reply-To: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> References: <1083965257.1955.16.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> Message-ID: <20040509120835.X2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Fri, 7 May 2004, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > hosting multiple virtual domains on single ip address on apache 1.3 w/ > mod_ssl and freebsd 4.9. having ssl certificate troubles. Is it possible > to give each virtual domain its own ssl certificate even if they share > the same ip address??? from what i understand, you can only use one ssl > certificate per ip?? is this right?? does anyone have any suggestion > besides hosting the ssl enabled domains on separate ip addresses?? > The limitation of SSL in this situation is that negotiation happens before the browser passes any host information to the daemon. Therefore, no, its a limitation with SSL and you need one IP per SSL cert. -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From trish Sun May 9 12:15:24 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 12:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brief Intro In-Reply-To: <6391CD4F-A154-11D8-A684-00306577F390@macmail.com> References: <6391CD4F-A154-11D8-A684-00306577F390@macmail.com> Message-ID: <20040509121215.D2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Sat, 8 May 2004, Pastor Mac wrote: > Hi all-- > > I'm de-lurking for a moment to introduce myself as a very raw newbie in > the world of *NIX-like OSs. Indeed, I am a church minister although > for the moment I'm not currently serving a church but on and off have > taken a number of computer science/IT classes and I've been hoping for > an opportunity in network administration one day. I've been a Mac user > for the past 12 years and last year acquired a Sawtooth G4 so that I > could start using OS X. I've installed/played with a few distros of > Linux on x86 but a couple months ago I surfed to the FreeBSD site and > downloaded an ISO and installed it just to see how it compared. In > short, I've been consuming any and all BSD related info/websites and > have probably turned into zealot novice for BSD asking some fellow CS > students at Calvin College to move to a more mature and secure > environment:-). > > I found this list via the user group listing on the main FreeBSD > website and subscribed to get a sense of the community in the tri-state > area. I currently live in Grand Rapids, MI but will be relocating to > Sussex, NJ in early June since the job market in west MI is simply > awful. My wife's family is from the N. Haledon/Wyckoff area so I've > gotten to know the neighborhood reasonably well. PTL for Hagstrom > maps:-) What I'm hoping for is some kind soul on the list who has > reasonable patience and lives in the northern NJ area who can mentor a > newbie to craft a home server and learn how to do sysadmin work. On a > related note, I realize the organization is geared to the 5 boroughs > and I would like to participate and come to the various gatherings but > Sussex to Midtown might be a stretch consistently. Is there a NJ > sub-group? > nope, but I'm in North Jersey (I'm originally from Mahwah, right next to Wyckoff, but now live in Wallington) If you need help I'm your (wo)man. (BTW, since this hasn;t sufficiently explained on this list, and pronouns are obviously an issue, I'm actually transitioning from male to female (slowly), but I tend to keep quiet about it. Its not a huge deal, and if you refer to the male persona, use "Pat", and "he" for now, but Trish is definitely a "she" though I don't look it right now) > I will say the BSDCan event looks most cool but about 95% would likely > be over my head for now. I hope I haven't interfered with existing > discussions and I'll try to pay as much attention as possible to the > discussions here so I can pick up a few nuggets along the way and try > real hard not to be like the marketing guy in User Friendly. > Hey, don;t worry about interfering, we're actually here for help, and admitting "I'm a newbie" and actually have the presence of mind to ask for mentoring is a big step. -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From tilly Sun May 9 17:47:23 2004 From: tilly (Tilly) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 17:47:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cant get this stupid prot installed Message-ID: <000e01c4360f$3643d140$6301a8c0@TILLY> Hey How would i force a certain port to be installed. I am trying to install ymsql-client and i did a portaudit eralier and it says it is unsecure and it wont let me install it. It is quite annoying. Tilly From mspitze1 Sun May 9 19:36:16 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 19:36:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cant get this stupid prot installed In-Reply-To: <000e01c4360f$3643d140$6301a8c0@TILLY> References: <000e01c4360f$3643d140$6301a8c0@TILLY> Message-ID: <20040509193616.56af01a9@bogomips.optonline.net> On Sun, 09 May 2004 17:47:23 -0400 Tilly wrote: > How would i force a certain port to be installed. I am trying to > install ymsql-client and i did a portaudit eralier and it says it is > unsecure and it wont let me install it. It is quite annoying. first of all, which version of mysql and which bsd? if you edit the make file I think there is a variable that marks thing broken, comment it out and see what happens. marc > > Tilly > From tilly Sun May 9 19:41:02 2004 From: tilly (Tilly) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 19:41:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cant get this stupid prot installed References: <000e01c4360f$3643d140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <20040509193616.56af01a9@bogomips.optonline.net> Message-ID: <001001c4361f$16eddd30$6301a8c0@TILLY> Hey Well i want to install mysql40-server and it needs the mysql40-client. I'll try ro find the line you are talking about. Tilly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Spitzer" To: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] cant get this stupid prot installed > On Sun, 09 May 2004 17:47:23 -0400 > Tilly wrote: > > > How would i force a certain port to be installed. I am trying to > > install ymsql-client and i did a portaudit eralier and it says it is > > unsecure and it wont let me install it. It is quite annoying. > > first of all, which version of mysql and which bsd? > > if you edit the make file I think there is a variable that marks > thing broken, comment it out and see what happens. > > marc > > > > > Tilly > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > From tilly Sun May 9 19:49:28 2004 From: tilly (Tilly) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 19:49:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] cant get this stupid prot installed References: <000e01c4360f$3643d140$6301a8c0@TILLY> <409EC393.3050300@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: <001a01c43620$448c1120$6301a8c0@TILLY> Hey Well their is asecurity thingy on it. Here is a link. http://www.vuxml.org/freebsd/2e129846-8fbb-11d8-8b29-0020ed76ef5a.html And also i cant quite find the line that would disable the error. Here is the output i get from doing a make. bsdBOX# cd /usr/ports/databases/mysql40-server/ bsdBOX# make && make install ===> mysql-server-4.0.18_1 depends on file: /usr/local/libexec/libtool13/libtool - found ===> mysql-server-4.0.18_1 depends on shared library: mysqlclient.12 - not found ===> Verifying install for mysqlclient.12 in /usr/ports/databases/mysql40-client ===> mysql-client-4.0.18_1 has known vulnerabilities: >> MySQL insecure temporary file creation (mysqlbug). Reference: >> Please update your ports tree and try again. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/ports/databases/mysql40-client. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/ports/databases/mysql40-server. bsdBOX# And i just upgraded my port tree using cvsweb. Any ideas. Tilly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Callaway" To: "Tilly" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] cant get this stupid prot installed > > Hey > > > > How would i force a certain port to be installed. I am trying to install > > ymsql-client and i did a portaudit eralier and it says it is unsecure and it > > wont let me install it. It is quite annoying. > > > > Tilly > > I've seen warnings when installing programs which use suid or are a > network accessible service. mysql-client doesn't do this, does it? Maybe > it's trying to install the server as a dependency. Sounds weird. Hope > you don't need to uninstall portaudit. > > Jesse > From jromero Mon May 10 00:14:53 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 00:14:53 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] sun ultra 10 console question Message-ID: <1084162492.9996.6.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> OK. So I borrowed a sun ultra 10 workstation. Installed bsd on it without a problem through serial console but I noticed someting interesting and I was wondering if anyone knows how to fix this. When I first got it and started playing with it I noticed that the system console displayed the console with extremely oversized fonts. Everything at the console seemed extremely blown up. First I thought it was the openboot firmware. So i went into the firmware and configured the rows and columns to be 34x80. reset the machine ... didn't work. then i reset openboot to factory defaults. then i changed my vga output to another monitor. nothing changed. anybody know why the system console could be displaying such a disproportionately large system console. From trish Mon May 10 11:09:25 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] sun ultra 10 console question In-Reply-To: <1084162492.9996.6.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> References: <1084162492.9996.6.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> Message-ID: <20040510110739.K2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Mon, 10 May 2004, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > OK. So I borrowed a sun ultra 10 workstation. Installed bsd on it > without a problem through serial console but I noticed someting > interesting and I was wondering if anyone knows how to fix this. > When I first got it and started playing with it I noticed that the > system console displayed the console with extremely oversized fonts. > Everything at the console seemed extremely blown up. First I thought it > was the openboot firmware. So i went into the firmware and configured > the rows and columns to be 34x80. reset the machine ... didn't work. > then i reset openboot to factory defaults. then i changed my vga output > to another monitor. nothing changed. anybody know why the system console > could be displaying such a disproportionately large system console. > Neither of my sparc64 boxes have a monitor, the one is in a rack here at work on serial, and the other doesn;t have VGA output (its an E250) if you give me a few days I'll fool around with it, but I suspect the best place to ask is on the freebsd.org sparc64 list. -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From mlists Mon May 10 12:03:38 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:03:38 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] sun ultra 10 console question In-Reply-To: <1084162492.9996.6.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> References: <1084162492.9996.6.camel@mail.save-ferris.com> Message-ID: <20040510160338.GA15056@bizintegrators.com> On Mon, May 10, 2004 at 12:14:53AM -0400, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > OK. So I borrowed a sun ultra 10 workstation. Installed bsd on it > without a problem through serial console but I noticed someting > interesting and I was wondering if anyone knows how to fix this. > When I first got it and started playing with it I noticed that the > system console displayed the console with extremely oversized fonts. > Everything at the console seemed extremely blown up. First I thought it > was the openboot firmware. So i went into the firmware and configured > the rows and columns to be 34x80. reset the machine ... didn't work. > then i reset openboot to factory defaults. then i changed my vga output > to another monitor. nothing changed. anybody know why the system console > could be displaying such a disproportionately large system console. Not sure which BSD you installed, but look into your console documentation, it would probably be wscons on OpenBSD and NetBSD, and syscons on FreeBSD. You should be able to change the resolution there somewhere. Just a guess.. -bruno From mikel.king Tue May 11 11:08:51 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:08:51 +0000 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] Message-ID: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? -------- Original Message -------- Security Threat Watch Number 028 Monday, May 10, 2004 Created for you by Network Computing & Neohapsis --- Security News ---------------------------------------------- The largest vulnerability this week involves a remote buffer overflow in the Apple File Server for various flavors of Mac OS. The advisory indicates that remote exploitation is relatively easy. http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0023.html In other news, it seems a potential suspect who may have been responsible for (partial) creation of the Sasser worm has been found. This capture seems to be the first payout from Microsoft's $5 million antivirus author reward fund. http://news.com.com/2100-7349_3-5208762.html Until next week, - The Neohapsis Security Threat Watch Team --- Advertisement ----------------------------------------------------- Join InformationWeek for a FREE, on-demand TechWebCast on Enterprise Grid Computing. It is better at balancing workloads, is more fault-tolerant, and is more scalable. We'll discuss three basic steps to move your business to Grid Computing. Register and view now: http://update.networkcomputing.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/egxP0GPnp20G5l0CTZF0Aa --- New Vulnerabilities ----------------------------------------------- Below is a list of new vulnerabilities announced this week. Vulnerabilities considered to be 'critical' involve highly-deployed software, or carry a high-risk of system compromise. Note that vulnerabilities not highlighted may still be of critical severity to your environment. **** Highlighted critical vulnerabilities **** AppleFileServer: LoginExt packet PathName remote overflow **** Newly announced vulnerabilities this week **** ____Windows____ Aldos HTTP server 1.5: Web root escaping, information disclosure http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0013.html Eudora 6.1: embedded file URL buffer overflow http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0057.html Serv-U 5.0.0.5: large LIST command parameter DoS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0012.html Titan FTP Server 3.01: aborted LIST command remote DoS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0025.html ____Linux____ KDE kolab: potential local configuration/password exposure http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0040.html PaX Linux 2.6 patch: local DoS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0004.html SuSE Live CD 9.1: insecure listening services (SuSE-SA:2004:011) http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2004-q2/0051.html ____MacOS____ AppleFileServer: LoginExt packet PathName remote overflow http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0023.html ____CGI____ Coppermine Photo Gallery 1.2.2: multiple vulnerabilities http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0009.html Crystal Reports Web interface: remote file retrieval, deletion/DoS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0007.html Fuse Talk: multiple vulnerabilities http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0039.html NukeJokes 1.7: multiple vulnerabilities http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0067.html P4DB 2.01: remote command execution, XSS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0046.html PHP-Nuke 6.x, 7.x: multiple vulnerabilities http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0042.html PHPX 3.26: multiple vulnerabilities http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0033.html SMF 1.0: SIZE tag XSS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0034.html Verity Ultraseek 5.2.1: system path disclosure http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0024.html YaBB forum 1.2: incorrect Subject field filtering http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0014.html omail 0.98.5: remote command execution http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0032.html ____Cross-Platform____ DeleGate 8.9.2: SSL certificate remote overflow http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0049.html HP WEBM agents: remote OpenSSL DoS (SSRT4717) http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0064.html Heimdal kadmind: preauth remote heap overflow http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0048.html --- Patches and Updates ----------------------------------------------- The following contains a list of vendor patches and updates released this week. ____Linux____ Debian > DSA 499-1: rsync http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0003.html Debian > DSA 500-1: flim http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0001.html Debian > DSA 501-1: exim http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2004-q2/0052.html Fedora > FLSA-2004:1395: OpenSSL http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0065.html Slackware > SSA:2004-124-01: rsync http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0019.html Slackware > SSA:2004-124-02: sysklogd http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0016.html Slackware > SSA:2004-124-04: libpng http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0017.html Slackware > SSA:2004-125-01: lha http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0037.html Slackware> SSA:2004-124-03: xine-lib http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0018.html SuSE > SuSE-SA:2004:010: kernel http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2004-q2/0048.html ____BSD____ FreeBSD > FreeBSD-SA-04:08: heimdal http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0045.html FreeBSD > FreeBSD-SA-04:09: kadmind http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0043.html OpenBSD > CVS http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-05/0282.html ____SCO____ SCOSA-2004.6: apache http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0035.html ____MacOS____ APPLE-SA-2004-05-03: multiple security updates http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0023.html --- Advertisement ----------------------------------------------------- Join Transform Magazine for a FREE, on-demand TechWebCast: Out Of Regulatory Necessity Comes Enterprise Invention. HP and Doculabs discuss how to align processes and technologies with business requirements. Learn how organizations move toward compliance and reap the benefits. Register and view now: http://update.networkcomputing.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/egxP0GPnp20G5l0CS6y0Ao --- Sign Off ---------------------------------------------------------- If this e-mail was passed to you, and you would like to begin receiving our free security e-mail newsletter on a weekly basis, we invite you to subscribe today by forwarding this message to [subscribe_stw at update.networkcomputing.com]. Or you can subscribe directly here: http://www.networkcomputing.com/go/stw.jhtml To manage all aspects of your subscription and newsletter account, simply use the URL below. You'll need your e-mail address and password to log in. If you don't have your password, you can generate a new one using the same URL. Once logged in, you can change your e-mail address and password as well as select specific platforms for which you'd like to receive information on patches and vulnerabilities. If you have any questions regarding this system, please don't hesitate to e-mail us at stw at nwc.com. http://stwpref.update.networkcomputing.com/CMP/NWC/prefctr.asp Important subscription contacts: CMP Media LLC 600 Community Drive Manhasset, NY 11030 Missed an issue? You can find all back issues of Security Threat Watch (as well as Security Alert Consensus and Security Express) online. http://archives.neohapsis.com/ Note: To better serve you we use dynamic URLs within our advertisments, which allow us to see how many readers click on a given ad. We do not share this information, or your personal information, with any outside party. Concerned about the privacy of your information relative to these tracking URLs? Please refer to our privacy policy. http://www.doubleclick.net/us/corporate/privacy We'd like to know what you think about the newsletter and what information you'd like to see in future editions. E-mail your comments to (stw at nwc.com). To unsubscribe from this newsletter, forward this message to [unsubscribe_stw at update.networkcomputing.com]. Copyright (c) 2004 Network Computing, a CMP Media LLC publication. All Rights Reserved. Distributed by Network Computing (http://www.networkcomputing.com). Powered by Neohapsis Inc., a Chicago-based security assessment and integration services consulting group (info at neohapsis.com | http://www.neohapsis.com/). This message powered by DARTmail http://www.doubleclick.net/us/corporate/privacy -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. You'll find the best way to get along. +------------------------------------------+ From pete Tue May 11 12:24:31 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:24:31 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: > Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, which i think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope ;^) -pete > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Security Threat Watch > Number 028 > Monday, May 10, 2004 > Created for you by Network Computing & Neohapsis > > --- Security News ---------------------------------------------- > > The largest vulnerability this week involves a remote buffer overflow in > the Apple File Server for various flavors of Mac OS. The advisory > indicates that remote exploitation is relatively easy. > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0023.html > > In other news, it seems a potential suspect who may have been > responsible for (partial) creation of the Sasser worm has been found. > This capture seems to be the first payout from Microsoft's $5 million > antivirus author reward fund. > http://news.com.com/2100-7349_3-5208762.html > > Until next week, > - The Neohapsis Security Threat Watch Team > > --- Advertisement ----------------------------------------------------- > > Join InformationWeek for a FREE, on-demand TechWebCast on Enterprise > Grid Computing. It is better at balancing > workloads, is more fault-tolerant, and is more scalable. > We'll discuss three basic steps to move your business to > Grid Computing. Register and view now: > http://update.networkcomputing.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/egxP0GPnp20G5l0CTZF0Aa > > > --- New Vulnerabilities ----------------------------------------------- > > Below is a list of new vulnerabilities announced this week. > Vulnerabilities considered to be 'critical' involve highly-deployed > software, or carry a high-risk of system compromise. Note that > vulnerabilities not highlighted may still be of critical severity > to your environment. > > > **** Highlighted critical vulnerabilities **** > > AppleFileServer: LoginExt packet PathName remote overflow > > > **** Newly announced vulnerabilities this week **** > > ____Windows____ > > Aldos HTTP server 1.5: Web root escaping, information disclosure > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0013.html > > Eudora 6.1: embedded file URL buffer overflow > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0057.html > > Serv-U 5.0.0.5: large LIST command parameter DoS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0012.html > > Titan FTP Server 3.01: aborted LIST command remote DoS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0025.html > > > ____Linux____ > > KDE kolab: potential local configuration/password exposure > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0040.html > > PaX Linux 2.6 patch: local DoS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0004.html > > SuSE Live CD 9.1: insecure listening services (SuSE-SA:2004:011) > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2004-q2/0051.html > > > ____MacOS____ > > AppleFileServer: LoginExt packet PathName remote overflow > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0023.html > > > ____CGI____ > > Coppermine Photo Gallery 1.2.2: multiple vulnerabilities > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0009.html > > Crystal Reports Web interface: remote file retrieval, deletion/DoS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0007.html > > Fuse Talk: multiple vulnerabilities > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0039.html > > NukeJokes 1.7: multiple vulnerabilities > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0067.html > > P4DB 2.01: remote command execution, XSS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0046.html > > PHP-Nuke 6.x, 7.x: multiple vulnerabilities > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0042.html > > PHPX 3.26: multiple vulnerabilities > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0033.html > > SMF 1.0: SIZE tag XSS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0034.html > > Verity Ultraseek 5.2.1: system path disclosure > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0024.html > > YaBB forum 1.2: incorrect Subject field filtering > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0014.html > > omail 0.98.5: remote command execution > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0032.html > > > ____Cross-Platform____ > > DeleGate 8.9.2: SSL certificate remote overflow > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0049.html > > HP WEBM agents: remote OpenSSL DoS (SSRT4717) > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0064.html > > Heimdal kadmind: preauth remote heap overflow > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0048.html > > > > --- Patches and Updates ----------------------------------------------- > > The following contains a list of vendor patches and updates released > this week. > > ____Linux____ > > Debian > DSA 499-1: rsync > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0003.html > > Debian > DSA 500-1: flim > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0001.html > > Debian > DSA 501-1: exim > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2004-q2/0052.html > > Fedora > FLSA-2004:1395: OpenSSL > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0065.html > > Slackware > SSA:2004-124-01: rsync > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0019.html > > Slackware > SSA:2004-124-02: sysklogd > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0016.html > > Slackware > SSA:2004-124-04: libpng > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0017.html > > Slackware > SSA:2004-125-01: lha > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0037.html > > Slackware> SSA:2004-124-03: xine-lib > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0018.html > > SuSE > SuSE-SA:2004:010: kernel > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2004-q2/0048.html > > > ____BSD____ > > FreeBSD > FreeBSD-SA-04:08: heimdal > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0045.html > > FreeBSD > FreeBSD-SA-04:09: kadmind > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0043.html > > OpenBSD > CVS > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-05/0282.html > > > ____SCO____ > > SCOSA-2004.6: apache > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0035.html > > > ____MacOS____ > > APPLE-SA-2004-05-03: multiple security updates > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2004-05/0023.html > > > > --- Advertisement ----------------------------------------------------- > > Join Transform Magazine for a FREE, on-demand TechWebCast: Out Of > Regulatory Necessity Comes Enterprise Invention. > HP and Doculabs discuss how to align processes and > technologies with business requirements. Learn how > organizations move toward compliance and reap the benefits. > Register and view now: > http://update.networkcomputing.com/cgi-bin4/DM/y/egxP0GPnp20G5l0CS6y0Ao > --- Sign Off ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > If this e-mail was passed to you, and you would like to begin receiving > our free security e-mail newsletter on a weekly basis, we invite you to > subscribe today by forwarding this message to > [subscribe_stw at update.networkcomputing.com]. > Or you can subscribe directly here: > http://www.networkcomputing.com/go/stw.jhtml > > To manage all aspects of your subscription and newsletter account, > simply use the URL below. You'll need your e-mail address and > password to log in. If you don't have your password, you can generate > a new one using the same URL. Once logged in, you can change your > e-mail address and password as well as select specific platforms for > which you'd like to receive information on patches and vulnerabilities. > If you have any questions regarding this system, please don't hesitate > to e-mail us at stw at nwc.com. > http://stwpref.update.networkcomputing.com/CMP/NWC/prefctr.asp > > Important subscription contacts: > CMP Media LLC > 600 Community Drive > Manhasset, NY 11030 > > Missed an issue? You can find all back issues of Security Threat Watch > (as well as Security Alert Consensus and Security Express) online. > http://archives.neohapsis.com/ > > Note: To better serve you we use dynamic URLs within our advertisments, > which allow us to see how many readers click on a given ad. We do not > share this information, or your personal information, with any outside > party. Concerned about the privacy of your information relative to these > tracking URLs? Please refer to our privacy policy. > http://www.doubleclick.net/us/corporate/privacy > > We'd like to know what you think about the newsletter and what > information you'd like to see in future editions. E-mail your comments > to (stw at nwc.com). > > To unsubscribe from this newsletter, forward this message to > [unsubscribe_stw at update.networkcomputing.com]. > Copyright (c) 2004 Network Computing, a CMP Media LLC publication. All > Rights Reserved. Distributed by Network Computing > (http://www.networkcomputing.com). Powered by Neohapsis Inc., a > Chicago-based security assessment and integration services consulting > group (info at neohapsis.com | http://www.neohapsis.com/). > > This message powered by DARTmail > http://www.doubleclick.net/us/corporate/privacy > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Tue May 11 11:35:37 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:35:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > >> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? > > i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm loose > yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, which i think > most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope ;^) For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. -bob From pete Tue May 11 12:44:53 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:44:53 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Mikel King wrote: >> >>> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? >> >> >> i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm >> loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, which i >> think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope ;^) > > > For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. > no i'm not. sorry. -pete > -bob > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Tue May 11 12:59:01 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:59:01 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> Pete Wright wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> >> On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> Mikel King wrote: >>> >>>> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? >>> >>> >>> >>> i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm >>> loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, which >>> i think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope ;^) >> >> >> >> For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. >> > no i'm not. sorry. > what other crossplatform, mostly open (via samba) network file system would you suggest? -p > -pete > > >> -bob >> > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Tue May 11 13:33:20 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:33:20 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DoomIII Message-ID: <40A10E60.3020902@nomadlogic.org> looks like Doom III due out this summer....right after the new Duke Nukem and halflife 2. anyway thought this quote was kinda funny from the press release, kinda makes me wish this guy was my CEO: "This summer we're sending game fans on a first-class trip to Mars -- with a layover in Hell," said Todd Hollenshead, CEO, id Software. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From lists Tue May 11 12:42:34 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:42:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DoomIII In-Reply-To: <40A10E60.3020902@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A10E60.3020902@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040511124234.592486d0@delinux.abwatley.com> On Tue, 11 May 2004 12:33:20 -0500 Pete Wright wrote: > -- with a layover in Hell," welcome to my world... That discribes my job, day in and day out.. -- --- From bob Tue May 11 12:59:21 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:59:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Pete Wright wrote: > >> Bob Ippolito wrote: >> >>> >>> On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Mikel King wrote: >>>> >>>>> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? >>>> >>>> i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm >>>> loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, which >>>> i think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope ;^) >>> >>> For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. >>> >> no i'm not. sorry. > > what other crossplatform, mostly open (via samba) network file system > would you suggest? You said "most OSX shops", if it's an OS X shop, you don't care about using a protocol that would interop with something else. In my experience, when you have macs talking to macs you use AFP, otherwise you use SMB. You have to go out a little bit out of your way on every client and server to use something other than AFP if they're both macs. There is no very compelling reason to move away from AFP. -bob From pete Tue May 11 15:06:44 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:06:44 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> Bob Ippolito wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mikel King wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm >>>>> loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, >>>>> which i think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope ;^) >>>> >>>> >>>> For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. >>>> >>> no i'm not. sorry. >> >> >> what other crossplatform, mostly open (via samba) network file system >> would you suggest? > > > You said "most OSX shops", if it's an OS X shop, you don't care about > using a protocol that would interop with something else. In my > experience, when you have macs talking to macs you use AFP, otherwise > you use SMB. You have to go out a little bit out of your way on every > client and server to use something other than AFP if they're both > macs. There is no very compelling reason to move away from AFP. hey i'm an OSX shop, but that doesn't mean i shouldn't take into consideration how things are gonna grow in the future. I guess the argument against afp, despite all of it's positive aspects, is that people are now free to move away from it and use more open technologies. i was just assuming most people were i guess. doesn't seem to crazy to me... -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From its Tue May 11 14:11:08 2004 From: its (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:11:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> On May 11, 2004, at 3:06 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> >> On May 11, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> Pete Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Bob Ippolito wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Mikel King wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm >>>>>> loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, >>>>>> which i think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i hope >>>>>> ;^) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. >>>>> >>>> no i'm not. sorry. >>> >>> >>> what other crossplatform, mostly open (via samba) network file >>> system would you suggest? >> >> >> You said "most OSX shops", if it's an OS X shop, you don't care about >> using a protocol that would interop with something else. In my >> experience, when you have macs talking to macs you use AFP, otherwise >> you use SMB. You have to go out a little bit out of your way on >> every client and server to use something other than AFP if they're >> both macs. There is no very compelling reason to move away from AFP. > > > hey i'm an OSX shop, but that doesn't mean i shouldn't take into > consideration how things are gonna grow in the future. I guess the > argument against afp, despite all of it's positive aspects, is that > people are now free to move away from it and use more open > technologies. i was just assuming most people were i guess. doesn't > seem to crazy to me... > > -pete > > As of 10.3 apple is moving towards ldap for managed clients. -brad From bob Tue May 11 14:48:25 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:48:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 2:11 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 3:06 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Bob Ippolito wrote: >> >>> >>> On May 11, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Pete Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bob Ippolito wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 11, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mikel King wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i have heard of it, altho i don't think there is a virus or worm >>>>>>> loose yet. the good news is that it's AFP that has the vuln, >>>>>>> which i think most OSX shops have moved away from by now...i >>>>>>> hope ;^) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For what, SMB? NFS? You must be kidding. >>>>>> >>>>> no i'm not. sorry. >>>> >>>> >>>> what other crossplatform, mostly open (via samba) network file >>>> system would you suggest? >>> >>> >>> You said "most OSX shops", if it's an OS X shop, you don't care >>> about using a protocol that would interop with something else. In >>> my experience, when you have macs talking to macs you use AFP, >>> otherwise you use SMB. You have to go out a little bit out of your >>> way on every client and server to use something other than AFP if >>> they're both macs. There is no very compelling reason to move away >>> from AFP. >> >> >> hey i'm an OSX shop, but that doesn't mean i shouldn't take into >> consideration how things are gonna grow in the future. I guess the >> argument against afp, despite all of it's positive aspects, is that >> people are now free to move away from it and use more open >> technologies. i was just assuming most people were i guess. doesn't >> seem to crazy to me... > > As of 10.3 apple is moving towards ldap for managed clients. If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, you're just making your life more difficult. LDAP is a central directory for metadata, not files, what does that have to do with anything? Apple has no obvious plans of moving to another filesharing protocol for their default. They currently support WebDAV, SMB, NFS, and AFP, so the people who want cake can eat it too. By the way, AFP is a perfectly open technology. There are open source (cross-platform!) implementations, and UNLIKE SMB, the wire protocol is publicly documented by the originator, Apple. I'm not saying it's an ideal protocol, but it does what it does well, and it supports the platform you're using a whole hell of a lot better than SMB does, so it would make your life easier if you used it. None of the filesharing protocols have a history of being secure, and in fact, I would say that AFP has the most pristine record of the bunch, so security isn't a real good reason either. -bob From trish Tue May 11 15:10:32 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> Message-ID: <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> > If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, you're just > making your life more difficult. > > LDAP is a central directory for metadata, not files, what does that > have to do with anything? > > Apple has no obvious plans of moving to another filesharing protocol > for their default. They currently support WebDAV, SMB, NFS, and AFP, > so the people who want cake can eat it too. > > By the way, AFP is a perfectly open technology. There are open source > (cross-platform!) implementations, and UNLIKE SMB, the wire protocol is > publicly documented by the originator, Apple. I'm not saying it's an > ideal protocol, but it does what it does well, and it supports the > platform you're using a whole hell of a lot better than SMB does, so it > would make your life easier if you used it. None of the filesharing > protocols have a history of being secure, and in fact, I would say that > AFP has the most pristine record of the bunch, so security isn't a real > good reason either. > sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to generally steer me away from it. -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From bob Tue May 11 15:27:46 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:27:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> Message-ID: <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 3:10 PM, Trish Lynch wrote: >> If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, you're >> just >> making your life more difficult. >> >> LDAP is a central directory for metadata, not files, what does that >> have to do with anything? >> >> Apple has no obvious plans of moving to another filesharing protocol >> for their default. They currently support WebDAV, SMB, NFS, and AFP, >> so the people who want cake can eat it too. >> >> By the way, AFP is a perfectly open technology. There are open source >> (cross-platform!) implementations, and UNLIKE SMB, the wire protocol >> is >> publicly documented by the originator, Apple. I'm not saying it's an >> ideal protocol, but it does what it does well, and it supports the >> platform you're using a whole hell of a lot better than SMB does, so >> it >> would make your life easier if you used it. None of the filesharing >> protocols have a history of being secure, and in fact, I would say >> that >> AFP has the most pristine record of the bunch, so security isn't a >> real >> good reason either. >> > > sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to generally > steer me away from it. Are you sure you're not talking about AppleTalk, the network layer that AFP doesn't depend on or even typically use in OS X? Even if it *were* particularly chatty, the protocol was originally designed a long time ago. Could it even have a remotely possible chance of bogging down your 100mbit or faster ethernet? Hell, I have gigabit ethernet in my apartment. I really think this claim is unfounded. -bob From pete Tue May 11 16:50:34 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:50:34 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > >>> If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, you're just >>> making your life more difficult. >>> yea i disagree here, sorry. >>> >> >> sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to generally >> steer me away from it. > > > Are you sure you're not talking about AppleTalk, the network layer > that AFP doesn't depend on or even typically use in OS X? so what does OS X use now on the "network" layer? here's an interesting link regarding AppleTalk and the OSI layers: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/Networking/Networking-21.html > > Even if it *were* particularly chatty, the protocol was originally > designed a long time ago. Could it even have a remotely possible > chance of bogging down your 100mbit or faster ethernet? yes, yes it can. it's happend to me a couple times actually. i've spent far too much time trying to debug AppleTalk problems during the OS8/9 days to even go back to that situation. now i'm really curious tho, i'd like to see some comparisons between afp over appletalk vs. non-appletalk. does it run as quickly, what about the overhead etc... -pete > -bob > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Tue May 11 16:06:50 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:06:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 4:50 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> >>>> If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, you're >>>> just >>>> making your life more difficult. >>>> > yea i disagree here, sorry. Obviously, it's hard to say that the time you've invested in making sure that only this more "open" protocol is supported hasn't bought you more than resource fork ugliness, mysterious long file transfer interruptions, filename handling peculiarities, and permission issues. Most of these things can probably be worked around, but that takes time that would've probably been better spent leaving things to AFP for an "OS X shop". >>> sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to >>> generally >>> steer me away from it. >> >> >> Are you sure you're not talking about AppleTalk, the network layer >> that AFP doesn't depend on or even typically use in OS X? > > so what does OS X use now on the "network" layer? > here's an interesting link regarding AppleTalk and the OSI layers: > > > http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/Networking/Networking > -21.html TCP/IP / ZeroConf / Rendezvous / LDAP takes the place of AppleTalk. >> Even if it *were* particularly chatty, the protocol was originally >> designed a long time ago. Could it even have a remotely possible >> chance of bogging down your 100mbit or faster ethernet? > > yes, yes it can. it's happend to me a couple times actually. > > i've spent far too much time trying to debug AppleTalk problems during > the OS8/9 days to even go back to that situation. now i'm really > curious tho, i'd like to see some comparisons between afp over > appletalk vs. non-appletalk. does it run as quickly, what about the > overhead etc... You're talking about AppleTalk again, I was talking about AFP. It's well known that AppleTalk is indeed chatty, but I haven't heard anyone ever say that same of AFP. -bob From dan Tue May 11 16:16:04 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:16:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) Message-ID: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> Wow! We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from NY. We also have people coming from Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Toledo, Charleston, Minneapolis, Vienna, Manassas Park, Vineyard Haven, Claremont, Fair Oaks, Topsham, Zelienople, and East Lansing. In all, we have 28 people from the US coming. It's not too late to sign up online for BSDCan 2004. After Thursday noon (EST), there is a CAD$50 late fee. Mind you, converted to US$, that's about the price of a coffee, so no big penalty there!. ;) -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From ike Tue May 11 16:25:03 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:25:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <491E2AFC-A389-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi All, This (interesting) thread is moving way faster than me today , On May 11, 2004, at 11:08 AM, Mikel King wrote: > Has anyone encountered this MAC bug? > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Security Threat Watch > Number 028 > Monday, May 10, 2004 > Created for you by Network Computing & Neohapsis > > --- Security News ---------------------------------------------- > > The largest vulnerability this week involves a remote buffer overflow > in > the Apple File Server [...] > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vulnwatch/2004-q2/0023.html Hi all, it seems that Apple released the patch approximately 2 days after the vulnerability was announced here, for what that's worth. For those generally unfamiliar with AFP: But with that said, I haven't heard any personal reports of the vulnerability being used to compromise a system or network, mostly because I'd say I see AFB being used behind NAT. Most larger organizations aren't using AFB that I see, (though BOY it would make some sysadmin's lives easier IMHO )- but it's usually used in enviornments which can't afford or make economic sense out of having a sysadmin or more complex network- (i.e. it's made to work in a decentralized network, no dns, and even works with no router between machines and a stupid old hub). It's aim is to be simple for users. More info on AFP from the horses mouth, for those interested: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Networking/Conceptual/AFP/ Preface/chapter_1_section_1.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000941 Now I'm not saying Large orgs explicitly DON'T use AFP, but it's really designed for a different culture and market, with different requirements for their practice, coming out of old AppleTalk. This is just my opinion based on my observations- I build web apps, so I'm not in any place to practically compare file sharing protocols- but I've lived off and on happily with various network file systems, and AFP has always been reliable. -- For The Record, Open Source implimentations of ye' ol AppleTalk from my bookmarks: "Netatalk is a freely-available, kernel level implementation of the AppleTalk Protocol Suite, originally for BSD-derived systems." http://netatalk.sourceforge.net/ "The Columbia AppleTalk Package (CAP) implements the AppleTalk protocol stack on a variety of UNIX machines." http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/appletalk/cap.html "Apple Talk Protocols" http://www.protocols.com/pbook/appletalk.htm From ike Tue May 11 16:27:31 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:27:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> Message-ID: Horay Dan! On May 11, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from > NY. I'm one of those signed up, who else here is going? Rocket- .ike From dan Tue May 11 16:30:28 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:30:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> Message-ID: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> On 11 May 2004 at 16:27, Isaac Levy wrote: > Horay Dan! > > On May 11, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > > We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from > > NY. > > I'm one of those signed up, who else here is going? Well, George has already publicly said he's going, so I can tell you that. For privacy reasons, I can't tell you about the other people. We got laws against that sort of thing here! -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From bob Tue May 11 16:30:58 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:30:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> Message-ID: <1C6082DA-A38A-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 4:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Horay Dan! > > On May 11, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Dan Langille wrote: >> We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from >> NY. > > I'm one of those signed up, who else here is going? I just signed up yesterday. From ike Tue May 11 16:31:27 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:31:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <491E2AFC-A389-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <491E2AFC-A389-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <2DAD45EA-A38A-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> correction: On May 11, 2004, at 4:25 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Apple released the patch Er, Software Update, (vocabulary of patch implies that the problem is 'solved', Software Update implies that security, and software in general, is an ongoing, living, process) Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 11 16:40:32 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:40:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> Message-ID: <72C91548-A38B-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > We got laws against that sort of thing here! I wish we did here ;) Rocket- .ike From dan Tue May 11 16:42:32 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:42:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <72C91548-A38B-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> Message-ID: <40A10278.26455.7CA9F2B9@localhost> On 11 May 2004 at 16:40, Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > > > We got laws against that sort of thing here! > > I wish we did here ;) I liked NZ privacy laws. In short, information can only be used for the purposes for which it was collected. That makes it much more difficult to pass on details to other parties, such as selling a mailing list. There are overriding conditions, such as court orders etc, but for the most part, it's pretty good. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From dan Tue May 11 16:43:27 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:43:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <72C91548-A38B-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> Message-ID: <40A102AF.5861.7CAAC8A0@localhost> On 11 May 2004 at 16:40, Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > > > We got laws against that sort of thing here! > > I wish we did here ;) Actually, even if we didn't have those laws here, it's still a privacy issue, and I wouldn't tell you (or anyone else for that matter). -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From pete Tue May 11 17:44:13 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:44:13 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 4:50 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Bob Ippolito wrote: >> >>> >>>>> If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, >>>>> you're just >>>>> making your life more difficult. >>>>> >> yea i disagree here, sorry. > > > Obviously, it's hard to say that the time you've invested in making > sure that only this more "open" protocol is supported hasn't bought > you more than resource fork ugliness, mysterious long file transfer > interruptions, filename handling peculiarities, and permission > issues. Most of these things can probably be worked around, but that > takes time that would've probably been better spent leaving things to > AFP for an "OS X shop". couple things then i gotta work ;) i don't rely on smb. sorry if it came out like that. frankly i use the best tool for the job at hand. nine times outta ten it's nfs. now, do i run a "pure" apple shop. no, aside from home users and apple corp. i can't think of any apple only shops. in fact i would argue that it would be a bad thing to rely on a single technology/vendor for anything. thank god steve figured that out and let's me mix and match all sorts of crazy things like smb/nfs/sneaker-net(that's my favorite)/afp to get things working. from what i've seen working at various places in the city is that people are using OSX on the desktop and building a cheap linux/bsd fileservers for storage. it works, takes less than a day to implement and everyone is happy. is it ideal? no. thank god, otherwise i'd prolly be outta work ;^) > >>>> sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to >>>> generally >>>> steer me away from it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Are you sure you're not talking about AppleTalk, the network layer >>> that AFP doesn't depend on or even typically use in OS X? >> >> >> so what does OS X use now on the "network" layer? >> here's an interesting link regarding AppleTalk and the OSI layers: >> >> >> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/Networking/Networking >> -21.html > > > TCP/IP / ZeroConf / Rendezvous / LDAP takes the place of AppleTalk. > which one is it by default? i'm honestly interested. i was under the assumption that DDP("AppleTalk") was being used when i enable "AppleTalk" in the OSX controll panel. how else would OSX clients be able to play with OS 8/9 clients and vice-versa? >>> Even if it *were* particularly chatty, the protocol was originally >>> designed a long time ago. Could it even have a remotely possible >>> chance of bogging down your 100mbit or faster ethernet? >> >> >> yes, yes it can. it's happend to me a couple times actually. >> >> i've spent far too much time trying to debug AppleTalk problems >> during the OS8/9 days to even go back to that situation. now i'm >> really curious tho, i'd like to see some comparisons between afp >> over appletalk vs. non-appletalk. does it run as quickly, what >> about the overhead etc... > > > You're talking about AppleTalk again, I was talking about AFP. It's > well known that AppleTalk is indeed chatty, but I haven't heard > anyone ever say that same of AFP. > yea i know i was. still think it's interesting tho... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Tue May 11 17:48:08 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:48:08 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> Message-ID: <40A14A18.2070409@nomadlogic.org> Dan Langille wrote: >On 11 May 2004 at 16:27, Isaac Levy wrote: > > > >>Horay Dan! >> >>On May 11, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Dan Langille wrote: >> >> >>>We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from >>>NY. >>> >>> >>I'm one of those signed up, who else here is going? >> >> > > > me too! >Well, George has already publicly said he's going, so I can tell you >that. For privacy reasons, I can't tell you about the other people. >We got laws against that sort of thing here! > > you guys do, all right! i knew i loved canada for some reason other than being the home of my girlfriend, hockey, socialized healthcare/education and beautiful geography ;^) seriously tho i can't wait! -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jesse Tue May 11 16:54:59 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:54:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> Message-ID: <7727B80E-A38D-11D8-9D60-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On May 11, 2004, at 4:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Horay Dan! > > On May 11, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Dan Langille wrote: >> We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from >> NY. > > I'm one of those signed up, who else here is going? > > Rocket- > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > Estoy vayendo. Watakashi wa ikimasu. Headin' nawth. need to dig up that paypal info, 1st. From jesse Tue May 11 17:03:52 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <40A102AF.5861.7CAAC8A0@localhost> References: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> <40A102AF.5861.7CAAC8A0@localhost> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 4:43 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > On 11 May 2004 at 16:40, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> On May 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Dan Langille wrote: >> >>> We got laws against that sort of thing here! >> >> I wish we did here ;) > > Actually, even if we didn't have those laws here, it's still a > privacy issue, and I wouldn't tell you (or anyone else for that > matter). > -- > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > Yeah, who cares about getting junk mail as a privacy issue when we have hard stats on our library habits available to the FBI. Three cheers for the good librarians who shred. The mess of laws here sucks. It seems that each law made to protect us is overridden by reams of other laws and their side-effects. May the best lawyer win. From bob Tue May 11 17:27:31 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:27:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> >> On May 11, 2004, at 4:50 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> Bob Ippolito wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>>> If you're an OS X shop that forces everyone into using SMB, >>>>>> you're just >>>>>> making your life more difficult. >>>>>> >>> yea i disagree here, sorry. >> >> >> Obviously, it's hard to say that the time you've invested in making >> sure that only this more "open" protocol is supported hasn't bought >> you more than resource fork ugliness, mysterious long file transfer >> interruptions, filename handling peculiarities, and permission >> issues. Most of these things can probably be worked around, but >> that takes time that would've probably been better spent leaving >> things to AFP for an "OS X shop". > > couple things then i gotta work ;) i don't rely on smb. sorry if it > came out like that. frankly i use the best tool for the job at hand. > nine times outta ten it's nfs. > now, do i run a "pure" apple shop. no, aside from home users and > apple corp. i can't think of any apple only shops. in fact i would > argue that it would be a bad thing to rely on a single > technology/vendor for anything. thank god steve figured that out and > let's me mix and match all sorts of crazy things like > smb/nfs/sneaker-net(that's my favorite)/afp to get things working. > from what i've seen working at various places in the city is that > people are using OSX on the desktop and building a cheap linux/bsd > fileservers for storage. it works, takes less than a day to implement > and everyone is happy. is it ideal? no. thank god, otherwise i'd > prolly be outta work ;^) You didn't say you had clients and servers running other operating systems. In any case, as Isaac points out, there are plenty of implementations of AFP to choose from that more than likely work just fine with your cheap linux/bsd fileservers. >>>>> sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to >>>>> generally >>>>> steer me away from it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Are you sure you're not talking about AppleTalk, the network layer >>>> that AFP doesn't depend on or even typically use in OS X? >>> >>> >>> so what does OS X use now on the "network" layer? >>> here's an interesting link regarding AppleTalk and the OSI layers: >>> >>> >>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/Networking/Networking >>> -21.html >> >> >> TCP/IP / ZeroConf / Rendezvous / LDAP takes the place of AppleTalk. >> > which one is it by default? i'm honestly interested. i was under the > assumption that DDP("AppleTalk") was being used when i enable > "AppleTalk" in the OSX controll panel. how else would OSX clients be > able to play with OS 8/9 clients and vice-versa? TCP/IP - Base network layer ZeroConf - Gets an IP address without a DHCP server Rendezvous - Service discovery LDAP - More service discovery, SSO (ZeroConf and Rendezvous are actually the same spec, but I'm using the names to mean different things) AppleTalk did all of these things. When you enable AppleTalk in the OS X control panel it's enabling AppleTalk, which allows it to talk to OS8/9 clients and vice-versa. AppleTalk is not on by default, because they've replaced it with open standard technologies. >>>> Even if it *were* particularly chatty, the protocol was originally >>>> designed a long time ago. Could it even have a remotely possible >>>> chance of bogging down your 100mbit or faster ethernet? >>> >>> >>> yes, yes it can. it's happend to me a couple times actually. >>> >>> i've spent far too much time trying to debug AppleTalk problems >>> during the OS8/9 days to even go back to that situation. now i'm >>> really curious tho, i'd like to see some comparisons between afp >>> over appletalk vs. non-appletalk. does it run as quickly, what >>> about the overhead etc... >> >> >> You're talking about AppleTalk again, I was talking about AFP. It's >> well known that AppleTalk is indeed chatty, but I haven't heard >> anyone ever say that same of AFP. >> > yea i know i was. still think it's interesting tho... The current implementation runs better over TCP/IP. -bob From ike Tue May 11 17:45:42 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:45:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <8D4A83FD-A394-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup All, On May 11, 2004, at 5:27 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> yea i know i was. still think it's interesting tho... > > The current implementation runs better over TCP/IP. Idea: since today I've heard/learned/read/thought about AFP more than I believe ever before, would anyone want to set up some comparison-style experiments to publish somewhere? Something to quantify the strengths/weaknesses of each respective protocal- (perhaps an article for DaemonNews or somesuch?) I'd be willing to get involved and could provide the place to do it- plus whatever gear I can sanely throw into the mix- but AFTER BSDCAN . Rocket- .ike From george Tue May 11 17:48:21 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:48:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > On 11 May 2004 at 16:27, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Horay Dan! >> >> On May 11, 2004, at 4:16 PM, Dan Langille wrote: >>> We have over 150 people signed up for BSDCan, four of whom are from >>> NY. >> >> I'm one of those signed up, who else here is going? > > Well, George has already publicly said he's going, so I can tell you > that. For privacy reasons, I can't tell you about the other people. > We got laws against that sort of thing here! Who says I'm going? That's just the excuse I told my significant other. I'm going to be in Vegas. . . ;-) g From ike Tue May 11 17:53:02 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:53:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> Message-ID: <932DC934-A395-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 11, 2004, at 5:48 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Who says I'm going? That's just the excuse I told my significant > other. > > I'm going to be in Vegas. . . > > ;-) Uh, dude, your my ride- bummer. .ike From pete Tue May 11 18:57:25 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:57:25 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <40A15A55.5040106@nomadlogic.org> > > You didn't say you had clients and servers running other operating > systems. In any case, as Isaac points out, there are plenty of > implementations of AFP to choose from that more than likely work just > fine with your cheap linux/bsd fileservers. > shoot, dosn't look like i got ike's post, i only knew of netatalk. i'd be really interested in checking them out. >>>>>> sure, but its also a very chatty protocol, which is enough to >>>>>> generally >>>>>> steer me away from it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Are you sure you're not talking about AppleTalk, the network >>>>> layer that AFP doesn't depend on or even typically use in OS X? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> so what does OS X use now on the "network" layer? >>>> here's an interesting link regarding AppleTalk and the OSI layers: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/mac/Networking/Networking >>>> -21.html >>> >>> >>> >>> TCP/IP / ZeroConf / Rendezvous / LDAP takes the place of AppleTalk. >>> >> which one is it by default? i'm honestly interested. i was under >> the assumption that DDP("AppleTalk") was being used when i enable >> "AppleTalk" in the OSX controll panel. how else would OSX clients be >> able to play with OS 8/9 clients and vice-versa? > > > TCP/IP - Base network layer > ZeroConf - Gets an IP address without a DHCP server > Rendezvous - Service discovery > LDAP - More service discovery, SSO > (ZeroConf and Rendezvous are actually the same spec, but I'm using the > names to mean different things) > > AppleTalk did all of these things. When you enable AppleTalk in the > OS X control panel it's enabling AppleTalk, which allows it to talk to > OS8/9 clients and vice-versa. AppleTalk is not on by default, because > they've replaced it with open standard technologies. > execellent, thanks for clearing that up! -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Tue May 11 19:05:47 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:05:47 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <8D4A83FD-A394-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <8D4A83FD-A394-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40A15C4B.7080100@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Wordup All, > > On May 11, 2004, at 5:27 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >>> yea i know i was. still think it's interesting tho... >> >> >> The current implementation runs better over TCP/IP. > > > Idea: since today I've heard/learned/read/thought about AFP more than > I believe ever before, would anyone want to set up some > comparison-style experiments to publish somewhere? Something to > quantify the strengths/weaknesses of each respective protocal- > (perhaps an article for DaemonNews or somesuch?) yea that would be great...it looks like bob and i will be at bsdcan and you will too right ike? maybe we can chat/hack on something up there. -pete > > I'd be willing to get involved and could provide the place to do it- > plus whatever gear I can sanely throw into the mix- but AFTER BSDCAN . > cool, i don't mind using a couple boxen here as a test bed. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Tue May 11 18:07:37 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:07:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <932DC934-A395-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> <932DC934-A395-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <9D24DA94-A397-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 11, 2004, at 5:48 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> Who says I'm going? That's just the excuse I told my significant >> other. >> >> I'm going to be in Vegas. . . >> >> ;-) > > Uh, dude, your my ride- bummer. Well, not necessarily, maybe he's taking us all to vegas. From george Tue May 11 18:11:03 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:11:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <9D24DA94-A397-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> <932DC934-A395-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <9D24DA94-A397-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <1790D93A-A398-11D8-9F85-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 11, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> On May 11, 2004, at 5:48 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>> Who says I'm going? That's just the excuse I told my significant >>> other. >>> >>> I'm going to be in Vegas. . . >>> >>> ;-) >> >> Uh, dude, your my ride- bummer. > > Well, not necessarily, maybe he's taking us all to vegas. Thanks Bob. . .it's nice to have someone in NYCBUG with some clarity. It's still too cold in Canada for me. . .and you can smoke unrestricted in Vegas. . .unlike Ottawa. g From ike Tue May 11 18:11:04 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:11:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Security Threat Watch 028] In-Reply-To: <40A15C4B.7080100@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A0EC83.9060609@ocsny.com> <40A0FE3F.7000108@nomadlogic.org> <40A10305.5000708@nomadlogic.org> <40A10655.8010403@nomadlogic.org> <8C34BB60-A36C-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A12444.3020306@nomadlogic.org> <938CD190-A376-11D8-8E3E-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <20040511150932.J2676@ultra.bsdunix.net> <483BF4A1-A381-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <40A13C9A.8090009@nomadlogic.org> <40A1492D.4090401@nomadlogic.org> <0291E096-A392-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <8D4A83FD-A394-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40A15C4B.7080100@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <18800BED-A398-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Word- On May 11, 2004, at 7:05 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >> Idea: since today I've heard/learned/read/thought about AFP more than >> I believe ever before, would anyone want to set up some >> comparison-style experiments to publish somewhere? Something to >> quantify the strengths/weaknesses of each respective protocal- >> (perhaps an article for DaemonNews or somesuch?) > > yea that would be great...it looks like bob and i will be at bsdcan > and you will too right ike? maybe we can chat/hack on something up > there. Cool- :) > -pete > >> >> I'd be willing to get involved and could provide the place to do it- >> plus whatever gear I can sanely throw into the mix- but AFTER BSDCAN >> . >> > cool, i don't mind using a couple boxen here as a test bed. > > -pete Excellent. :) We'll talk... Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 11 18:11:55 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:11:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan (two more days!) In-Reply-To: <9D24DA94-A397-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40A0FC44.22866.7C91B7D2@localhost> <40A0FFA4.9954.7C9EE83D@localhost> <932DC934-A395-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <9D24DA94-A397-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <369EEA5E-A398-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 11, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >>> >>> I'm going to be in Vegas. . . >>> >>> ;-) >> >> Uh, dude, your my ride- bummer. > > Well, not necessarily, maybe he's taking us all to vegas. Oh! Hrm... /me checks bank account... From george Tue May 11 18:16:43 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:16:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? Message-ID: There's been some debate about network protocols. .. I'm sure some has been elaborated elsewhere, but maybe we could do a little NYCBUG lab study about the various network protocols. . .put it into our soon to be live documentation project area. . . AFS v AppleTalk v. NFS v. SMB. . . That is what Ike and Peter were referring to, right? Post-BSDCan. . . g From ike Tue May 11 18:22:22 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:22:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 6:16 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > AFS v AppleTalk v. NFS v. SMB. . . > > That is what Ike and Peter were referring to, right? Post-BSDCan. . . Yes- a strengths/weaknesses shootout- quick and dirty... From george Tue May 11 18:24:01 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:24:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . Message-ID: I've been playing with KisMAC, iStumbler and MacStumbler on OS X. KisMAC is the only one that cracks WEP, but it doesn't seem to be capturing any packets. Etherpeg is like an OS X Driftnet, putting the NIC in promiscuous mode. . .but you have to chmod 777 on /dev/bpf* after each clean boot, which probably isn't a good idea. . . Any other wlan hacking apps around. . .it doesn't seem like BSDairtools is ported yet to Darwin. . g From sunny-ml Tue May 11 18:49:35 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:49:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200405111849.36527.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:16 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > AFS v AppleTalk v. NFS v. SMB. . . Might as well throw in CIFS(updatd SMB, works with nsswitch()), and Coda Sunny Dubey From bob Tue May 11 18:50:23 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:50:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9661DF90-A39D-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 6:24 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Etherpeg is like an OS X Driftnet, putting the NIC in promiscuous > mode. . .but you have to chmod 777 on /dev/bpf* after each clean boot, > which probably isn't a good idea. . . That is easily fixed by using the Authentication APIs... It is open source, but I'm not willing to convert it to an Xcode project or buy CodeWarrior to fix it. -bob From sunny-ml Tue May 11 18:52:36 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:52:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:24 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > . .but you have to chmod 777 on /dev/bpf* after each clean boot, which > probably isn't a good idea. . . > 777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for you. Sunny Dubey From pete Tue May 11 18:57:26 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:57:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <200405111849.36527.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405111849.36527.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On May 11, 2004, at 6:49 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:16 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> AFS v AppleTalk v. NFS v. SMB. . . > > Might as well throw in CIFS(updatd SMB, works with nsswitch()), and > Coda yea this all sounds real good. if we are lucky it'll start a thread twice as long as the new vuln. in afp. -p > > Sunny Dubey > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From bob Tue May 11 19:01:29 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:01:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 11, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:24 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> . .but you have to chmod 777 on /dev/bpf* after each clean boot, which >> probably isn't a good idea. . . > > 777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for you. You'd have to add yourself to the wheel group then. Administrator accounts are not wheel. As I mentioned, the real solution is to use the Authentication API to get access to the device files. Basically just sudo on crack. -bob From bob Tue May 11 19:06:50 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:06:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> References: <200405111849.36527.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 6:57 PM, pete wright wrote: > On May 11, 2004, at 6:49 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:16 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>> AFS v AppleTalk v. NFS v. SMB. . . >> >> Might as well throw in CIFS(updatd SMB, works with nsswitch()), and >> Coda > yea this all sounds real good. if we are lucky it'll start a thread > twice as long as the new vuln. in afp. CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. I would say the test matrix should be limited to NFS, SMB/CIFS, AFP. Coda/AFS/etc. are a different beast.. distributed network file systems. -bob From george Tue May 11 19:07:48 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:07:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <0502984A-A3A0-11D8-AA1F-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 11, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:24 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> . .but you have to chmod 777 on /dev/bpf* after each clean boot, which >> probably isn't a good idea. . . >> > > 777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for you. > > Sunny Dubey > Well aware of that. . .particulary on bpf. . . But that's the notification message when you start up the app. (we're talking about etherpeg for os x) 666 works. . .660 doesn't. . . g From sunny-ml Tue May 11 19:08:34 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:08:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:01 pm, you wrote: > > 777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for you. > > You'd have to add yourself to the wheel group then. Erm, I think G would know exactly what 660 means one must do ... hence why I didn't bother with the group issue. Sunny Dubey From sunny-ml Tue May 11 19:11:51 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:11:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:06 pm, you wrote: > CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears in the linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the samba guys hence why it should be tested seperately Sunny Dubey From ike Tue May 11 19:12:57 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:12:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <0502984A-A3A0-11D8-AA1F-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <0502984A-A3A0-11D8-AA1F-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 7:07 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > 666 works. . .660 doesn't. . . scary. From bob Tue May 11 19:19:23 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:19:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:06 pm, you wrote: > >> CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. > > I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears in > the > linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the samba > guys > > hence why it should be tested seperately We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has to do with that ;) -bob From george Tue May 11 19:20:42 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:20:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 7:08 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:01 pm, you wrote: > >>> 777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for >>> you. >> >> You'd have to add yourself to the wheel group then. > > Erm, I think G would know exactly what 660 means one must do ... hence > why I > didn't bother with the group issue. > Yes. . ..the first thing i did when i bought my ibook was enable root, then put my login in the wheel group. . .and installed x11. . .of course. . . This is my first apple or os x hardware for my use, but i have to say, i don't like that things run out of /opt/local/bin. . .blah. Lots of things to note.. .I'll be writing something up for Daemon News on this. . . BTW, the new DN EZine has a review i did of the new OBSD/pf book. . . Everyone should consider writing something for DN. . .lots of these discussions we have are relevant for DN readers. g From sunny-ml Tue May 11 19:25:35 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:25:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200405111925.35518.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:19 pm, you wrote: > We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. > I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has to > do with that ;) This has nothing to do with linux. The linux point was only evidence in favor of CIFS and SMB being substancially different. I doubt the linux/samba guys would create another kernel module just for fun. Sunny Dubey From george Tue May 11 19:26:47 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:26:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 7:19 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > On May 11, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:06 pm, you wrote: >> >>> CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. >> >> I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears in >> the >> linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the samba >> guys >> >> hence why it should be tested seperately > > We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. > I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has > to do with that ;) > > -bob The next time we'll compare OSs and protocols. . like that one that has a kernel developed separately from the rest of the os, separate from the packages it runs, versus the BSDs. ;-) Maybe with firewalling. . .ipchains/tables/netchains versus fbsd ipfw and obsd pf. g From bob Tue May 11 19:28:11 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:28:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 11, 2004, at 7:20 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 7:08 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:01 pm, you wrote: >> >>>> 777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for >>>> you. >>> >>> You'd have to add yourself to the wheel group then. >> >> Erm, I think G would know exactly what 660 means one must do ... >> hence why I >> didn't bother with the group issue. >> > > Yes. . ..the first thing i did when i bought my ibook was enable root, > then put my login in the wheel group. . .and installed x11. . .of > course. . . Why did you enable root? What's wrong with sudo? I find sudo -s to be a more than suitable root login replacement. > This is my first apple or os x hardware for my use, but i have to say, > i don't like that things run out of /opt/local/bin. . .blah. Blame darwinports, that's not Apple's fault. I'm pretty sure that you can configure that location. -bob From sunny-ml Tue May 11 19:29:52 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:29:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: References: <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200405111929.52662.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:20 pm, you wrote: > This is my first apple or os x hardware for my use, but i have to say, > i don't like that things run out of /opt/local/bin. . .blah. but /opt is required by the FHS :) Sunny Dubey From jromero Tue May 11 19:36:04 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:36:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Recommendation for colocated isp service Message-ID: <680c760d7c35714b97fa62429d2de2c7@romero3000.com> Looking for new colocation provider. Need the following: 1-multihomed BGP 2-backup generators 3-24/7 facility access 4-6u's worth of space (for now) Very unhappy with current provider. Looking for a new one in tri-state area. Any suggestions?? From george Tue May 11 19:38:34 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:38:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Recommendation for colocated isp service In-Reply-To: <680c760d7c35714b97fa62429d2de2c7@romero3000.com> References: <680c760d7c35714b97fa62429d2de2c7@romero3000.com> Message-ID: <519D4FF5-A3A4-11D8-AA1F-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 11, 2004, at 7:36 PM, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > > > Looking for new colocation provider. Need the following: > > 1-multihomed BGP > 2-backup generators > 3-24/7 facility access > 4-6u's worth of space (for now) > > Very unhappy with current provider. Looking for a new one in tri-state > area. > Any suggestions?? > YES YES YES Hans and I visited this nice colo facility in Bk recently. . .cheap space. . . I don't remember the pricing for cabinets or cages, but it was very cheap. It was the product of some huge dot com investment gone nowhere. .. it's in downtown Brooklyn/Fort Greene off Atlantic Ave and Vanderbilt... I'll get back to you with the details later. . .I got to look them up. . . g From jesse Tue May 11 22:00:29 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:00:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] taking my shoes off Message-ID: <24DE1070-A3B8-11D8-B4D9-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> I backed up my laptop and am about to put NetBSD 1.6.2 on it. If I do, I'll be the first to tell the NetBSD people I can do it. Should be trivial, but it's nice to say that it's been seen to work. From george Tue May 11 22:19:48 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:19:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] KisMAC followup Message-ID: Earlier I mentioned that KisMAC doesn't seem to find packets. . . duh. I did an RTFM and found that the Airport Extreme cards only work in active mode with KisMAC. Which explains why I'm seeing other networks, but no able to dump traffic. . . g From mlists Wed May 12 00:29:10 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:29:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <0502984A-A3A0-11D8-AA1F-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <0502984A-A3A0-11D8-AA1F-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040512042910.GK15056@bizintegrators.com> On Tue, May 11, 2004 at 07:07:48PM -0400, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 11, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > >On Tuesday 11 May 2004 06:24 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > >>. .but you have to chmod 777 on /dev/bpf* after each clean boot, which > >>probably isn't a good idea. . . > >> > > > >777 is never a good idea, I'd be surprised if 660 didn't work for you. > > > >Sunny Dubey > > > Well aware of that. . .particulary on bpf. . . > > But that's the notification message when you start up the app. > > (we're talking about etherpeg for os x) > > 666 works. . .660 doesn't. . . You could change the device group to your group, then 660 would be fine. -bruno From ike Wed May 12 01:59:37 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 01:59:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <8D3441C0-A3D9-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup all, On May 11, 2004, at 7:28 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> Yes. . ..the first thing i did when i bought my ibook was enable >> root, then put my login in the wheel group. . .and installed x11. . >> .of course. . . > > Why did you enable root? What's wrong with sudo? I find sudo -s to > be a more than suitable root login replacement. Yeah- sudo is the bomb- no need for root at all. (want a root shell? $ sudo bash ) Much more sane, from a certain perspective- i.e., how many experienced *nix admins have made an extremely costly mistake while logged in as root? Or, if root is enabled, a compromise could let one get it- :) > >> This is my first apple or os x hardware for my use, but i have to >> say, i don't like that things run out of /opt/local/bin. . .blah. > > Blame darwinports, that's not Apple's fault. I'm pretty sure that you > can configure that location. Edit /etc/ports/sources.conf to change the location. Indeed you can build the ports wherever you want by defining the build location, (i.e. /usr/local ) I LOVE this feature. One can choose to either separate the port installs into their own place in userland, or one can integrate them tightly into the system. Very *NIX-ish, IMHO. Currently, I like to use ports purely for tryout/convenience purposes, as any tool I choose to rely on I prefer to build from source myself- so I'm ok with the /opt dir. (once I even configured it for /usr/local/opt/bin etc... blah to keep it somewhere I felt comfortable with...) Rocket- .ike From bob Wed May 12 02:07:23 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:07:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: <8D3441C0-A3D9-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <8D3441C0-A3D9-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: On May 12, 2004, at 1:59 AM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Wordup all, > > On May 11, 2004, at 7:28 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >>> Yes. . ..the first thing i did when i bought my ibook was enable >>> root, then put my login in the wheel group. . .and installed x11. . >>> .of course. . . >> >> Why did you enable root? What's wrong with sudo? I find sudo -s to >> be a more than suitable root login replacement. > > Yeah- sudo is the bomb- no need for root at all. > (want a root shell? $ sudo bash ) I prefer sudo -s, it uses whatever shell you're currently using (via the SHELL variable or /etc/passwd). -bob From ike Wed May 12 02:19:30 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:19:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OS X wireless sniffers and more. . . In-Reply-To: References: <200405111852.36925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <23321D4C-A39F-11D8-BCDD-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <200405111908.34316.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <8D3441C0-A3D9-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <543F7BA0-A3DC-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 12, 2004, at 2:07 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I prefer sudo -s, it uses whatever shell you're currently using (via > the SHELL variable or /etc/passwd). Niiiice.... From ike Wed May 12 02:53:29 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:53:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Darwin Kernel Hacking Message-ID: <13188F5D-A3E1-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi All, Thought it was worth forking a new thread here, seeing as Mach Kernel hacking has gotten a WEE bit off the topic of file protocols... :) On May 11, 2004, at 7:26 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: [...some.file.protocol.conversation...] >>>> CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. >>> >>> I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears >>> in the >>> linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the samba >>> guys >>> >>> hence why it should be tested seperately >> >> We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. >> I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has >> to do with that ;) >> >> -bob > > The next time we'll compare OSs and protocols. . like that one that > has a kernel developed separately from the rest of the os, separate > from the packages it runs, versus the BSDs. Ok, so here goes some urls about kernel hacking in Darwin/OSX, and may shed some light on why Mach is different from other BSD kernels. (note- I'm not at all suggesting any kind of kernel argument here, but am simply interested in sharing differences, strengths/weaknesses...) Any folks here with BSD Kernel Hacking experience, who just recently purchased iBooks etc..., (cough cough), here's some urls: Darwin Kernel Documentation (main) http://tinyurl.com/35v8u http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Kernel-date.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000422-TP30000532 Kernel Extension Concepts http://tinyurl.com/3f25k http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KEXTConcept/ articles/kext_dependencies.html Hello Kernel: Creating a Kernel Extension With Xcode http://tinyurl.com/2vlz5 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KEXTConcept/ articles/hello_kext.html And noteworthy, while stumbling over Google fast to see if I could find some relevant Non-Apple source material, I found this nugget of fun: Mach and Darwin binary compatiblity for NetBSD/powerpc and NetBSD/i386. http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html (Photoshop on NetBSD/i386? wtf? perverse...) Rocket- .ike From ike Wed May 12 02:56:18 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 02:56:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Firewalls Message-ID: <7846F6CC-A3E1-11D8-891B-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi All, Forked thread again here, [...some.file.protocol.conversation...] > > ;-) > > Maybe with firewalling. . .ipchains/tables/netchains versus fbsd ipfw > and obsd pf. This is a good one that I'm still dying for a truly non-biased explanation of- (perhaps at BSDCAN?) Or- perhaps this is a good topic for an entire meeting? We could get some sports announcer to moderate between experts/hardcores who use various firewalling techniques and software... I understand that firewalls are very different from a use perspective, but I'm looking for a serious BREAKDOWN... (seeing as I really only know ipfw, and most of the threat model for what I do is oriented around making the application itself secure, and making the app secure over the firewall (webservers))... Firewalls for dummies is not what I'm looking for, but some sort of more practical level of comparison would be cool- and I haven't found that... Rocket- .ike From trish Wed May 12 08:53:27 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 08:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <200405111925.35518.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <200405111925.35518.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20040512084950.G66946@ultra.bsdunix.net> On Tue, 11 May 2004, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:19 pm, you wrote: > > > We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. > > I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has to > > do with that ;) > > This has nothing to do with linux. The linux point was only evidence in > favor of CIFS and SMB being substancially different. I doubt the > linux/samba guys would create another kernel module just for fun. > The file system specification for CIFS and SMB are essentially the same, in fact, CIFS is just the new name for server message block network file systems, the name was changed to reflect the fact that it was becoming somewhat of a standard to "common internet file system". The improvements in CIFS are minor and can be likended to the difference between NFSv2 and NFSv3 :) -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From pete Wed May 12 10:37:16 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:37:16 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > On May 11, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:06 pm, you wrote: >> >>> CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. >> >> >> I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears in >> the >> linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the samba >> guys >> >> hence why it should be tested seperately > > > We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. > I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has > to do with that ;) why should we limit the test to just Mac/OS X tho? Maybe for the initial testing it would be helpful to establish a base line using Mac/OS X, but in the furture i'd think the differences between a FreeBSD box serving NFSv3 versus a FreeBSD box server netatalk could be more interesting(and cheaper for us to test ;^). I still think we should target a OS X client tho... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From mikel.king Wed May 12 10:46:39 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:46:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... Message-ID: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> from ziff davis Apple Should Stop Making Macs That's what I think, at least. What's the point? The much-vaunted Apple luster has fallen from its computing and OS division, and now sits squarely in consumer electronics and iPod land. eWEEK.com columnist Rob Enderle disagrees, though. He thinks Apple has a bright future in desktop computing. If you care about the Mac or iPods, or you just want to witness a good catfight, don't miss our debate. Debate: The Future of Apple: http://eletters.wnn.ziffdavis.com/zd1/cts?d=75-205-1-1-766911-8873-1 From pete Wed May 12 12:10:14 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:10:14 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: > from ziff davis > > Apple Should Stop Making Macs > > That's what I think, at least. What's the point? The > much-vaunted Apple luster has fallen from its computing and > OS division, and now sits squarely in consumer electronics > and iPod land. eWEEK.com columnist Rob Enderle disagrees, > though. He thinks Apple has a bright future in desktop > computing. If you care about the Mac or iPods, or you just > want to witness a good catfight, don't miss our debate. > wow that's awesome! thank god i've got my asbestos jumpper still on ;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... -pete > Debate: The Future of Apple: > http://eletters.wnn.ziffdavis.com/zd1/cts?d=75-205-1-1-766911-8873-1 > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From lists Wed May 12 11:23:44 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:23:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040512112344.604746ef@delinux.abwatley.com> On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:10:14 -0500 Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > > > Apple Should Stop Making Macs related article... http://news.com.com/2010-7343_3-5210213.html Why Steve Jobs is still important May 11, 2004, 11:00 AM PT By George Colony "If Jobs and team point their considerable innovation and creativity back toward desktop applications, they could blow a lot of new thinking into the market. Call it "iWorks"--an integrated desktop suite based on Linux. Apple would feature iWorks first on the Mac and then make it available on Intel machines. This would mean that 5 percent of desktops would have Linux desktops right out of the chute--a great start for the first serious Linux-based Microsoft Office fighter. This one's a stretch, given that Mac is based on OpenBSD, not Linux. But if the opportunity becomes compelling, I'll bet Jobs will move." -- --- From mlists Wed May 12 11:30:05 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:30:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040512153005.GM15056@bizintegrators.com> > ;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker > that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... SGI. :) From pete Wed May 12 12:30:22 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:30:22 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <20040512112344.604746ef@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <20040512112344.604746ef@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <40A2511E.6090003@nomadlogic.org> michael wrote: >On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:10:14 -0500 >Pete Wright wrote: > > > >>Mikel King wrote: >> >> >> >>>Apple Should Stop Making Macs >>> >>> > >related article... > >http://news.com.com/2010-7343_3-5210213.html > >Why Steve Jobs is still important >May 11, 2004, 11:00 AM PT >By George Colony > >"If Jobs and team point their considerable innovation and creativity >back toward desktop applications, they could blow a lot of new thinking >into the market. Call it "iWorks"--an integrated desktop suite based on >Linux. Apple would feature iWorks first on the Mac and then make it >available on Intel machines. This would mean that 5 percent of desktops >would have Linux desktops right out of the chute--a great start for the >first serious Linux-based Microsoft Office fighter. This one's a >stretch, given that Mac is based on OpenBSD, not Linux. But if the >opportunity becomes compelling, I'll bet Jobs will move." > > > > wow. OpenBSD. wow. who the hell is George Colony? oh he's an analyst, no wonder he has no clue about anything -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From sunny-ml Wed May 12 11:29:59 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:29:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 12 May 2004 12:10 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > wow that's awesome! thank god i've got my asbestos jumpper still on > ;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker > that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... > I guess you've never sat down in front of an IBM POWER workstation or ThinkPad. Sunny Dubey From jeffknight Wed May 12 11:30:25 2004 From: jeffknight (putamare) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:30:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <4A0F91FC-A429-11D8-8DDC-000393B9FB36@mac.com> On May 12, 2004, at 12:10 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker that takes > industrial design as seriously as apple.... Or one that has been dead or dying for for even half as long... Jeff Knight putamare not junk at putamare.net From pete Wed May 12 12:40:33 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:33 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <20040512153005.GM15056@bizintegrators.com> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <20040512153005.GM15056@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <40A25381.1020508@nomadlogic.org> mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: >>;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker >>that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... >> >> > >SGI. :) > > yea them and IBM....hrmm maybe i'm just really annoyed with dell and HPaq right now ;) -p >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Wed May 12 12:41:19 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:41:19 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40A253AF.5040502@nomadlogic.org> Sunny Dubey wrote: >On Wednesday 12 May 2004 12:10 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > > > >>wow that's awesome! thank god i've got my asbestos jumpper still on >>;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker >>that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... >> >> >> > >I guess you've never sat down in front of an IBM POWER workstation or >ThinkPad. > > > yea i am right now actually...love it too! see follow up post.... -p >Sunny Dubey >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From mlists Wed May 12 12:28:36 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 12:28:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <40A2511E.6090003@nomadlogic.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <20040512112344.604746ef@delinux.abwatley.com> <40A2511E.6090003@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040512162836.GO15056@bizintegrators.com> > >By George Colony > > > >"If Jobs and team point their considerable innovation and creativity > >back toward desktop applications, they could blow a lot of new thinking > >into the market. Call it "iWorks"--an integrated desktop suite based on > >Linux. Apple would feature iWorks first on the Mac and then make it > >available on Intel machines. This would mean that 5 percent of desktops > >would have Linux desktops right out of the chute--a great start for the > >first serious Linux-based Microsoft Office fighter. This one's a > >stretch, given that Mac is based on OpenBSD, not Linux. But if the > >opportunity becomes compelling, I'll bet Jobs will move." > > > wow. OpenBSD. wow. who the hell is George Colony? oh he's an > analyst, no wonder he has no clue about anything This press crap got so bad, I don't even read it anymore. Anyone who can type is allowed to publish their expert articles these days.. -bruno From george Wed May 12 10:57:11 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:57:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 12, 2004, at 10:37 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> On May 11, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:06 pm, you wrote: >>> >>>> CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. >>> >>> >>> I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears >>> in the >>> linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the samba >>> guys >>> >>> hence why it should be tested seperately >> >> >> We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing list. >> I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux kernel has >> to do with that ;) > > > why should we limit the test to just Mac/OS X tho? Maybe for the > initial testing it would be helpful to establish a base line using > Mac/OS X, but in the furture i'd think the differences between a > FreeBSD box serving NFSv3 versus a FreeBSD box server netatalk could > be more interesting(and cheaper for us to test ;^). I still think we > should target a OS X client tho... > > > We should either use multiple protocols on one OS/platform, or one protocol with multiple plaforms/OS's. It seems that the main contention is about protocols, so maybe we stick to one platform/OS and test multiple protocols. g From pete Wed May 12 14:14:26 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:14:26 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> G. Rosamond wrote: > > On May 12, 2004, at 10:37 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Bob Ippolito wrote: >> >>> On May 11, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: >>> >>>> On Tuesday 11 May 2004 07:06 pm, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> CIFS and SMB aren't really worth talking about separately.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I believe their implementations are not the same, or so it appears >>>> in the >>>> linux kernel because each has their own kernel module from the >>>> samba guys >>>> >>>> hence why it should be tested seperately >>> >>> >>> >>> We were talking about OS X, on the NYC BSD Users Group mailing >>> list. I'm not sure what the implementation details of the Linux >>> kernel has to do with that ;) >> >> >> >> why should we limit the test to just Mac/OS X tho? Maybe for the >> initial testing it would be helpful to establish a base line using >> Mac/OS X, but in the furture i'd think the differences between a >> FreeBSD box serving NFSv3 versus a FreeBSD box server netatalk could >> be more interesting(and cheaper for us to test ;^). I still think we >> should target a OS X client tho... >> >> >> > > We should either use multiple protocols on one OS/platform, or one > protocol with multiple plaforms/OS's. > > It seems that the main contention is about protocols, so maybe we > stick to one platform/OS and test multiple protocols. > yea that a good point, maybe we should send an email to the apple folks for an Xserve/OSX server lisc. for this. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From lists Wed May 12 13:18:26 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:18:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] webup Message-ID: <20040512131826.4dcb9090@delinux.abwatley.com> I'm half way through a writing a script to periodically check whether my web servers are responding to http and serving pages, when... 1. Somebody must have been here before, I'll check the web 2. Marc showed me to search ports! 3. I could just pay a service hundreds of dollars a month for this OK, the last one was a joke... true, but a joke... I didn't find anything, so I'll finish my script. Besides, now I get to choose what cool features I want . Has anybody heard of anything like this? Michael -- --- From bob Wed May 12 13:45:07 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:45:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] webup In-Reply-To: <20040512131826.4dcb9090@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <20040512131826.4dcb9090@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <1B5DB336-A43C-11D8-8A4A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 12, 2004, at 1:18 PM, michael wrote: > I'm half way through a writing a script to periodically check whether > my > web servers are responding to http and serving pages, when... > > 1. Somebody must have been here before, I'll check the web > 2. Marc showed me to search ports! > 3. I could just pay a service hundreds of dollars a month for this > > OK, the last one was a joke... true, but a joke... I didn't find > anything, so I'll finish my script. Besides, now I get to choose what > cool features I want . You probably searched for something too specific.. usually people need to monitor more than just http, so the solutions out there are more general. The keywords you should be using are something like +(service OR server OR network) +monitor Here are some examples that I've actually heard of before, but I have no experience with any of them: Nagios: http://www.nagios.org/ Big Brother: http://bb4.com/ Slate: http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jlewalle/state/ -bob From ike Wed May 12 15:29:44 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:29:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Wordup all, On May 12, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> We should either use multiple protocols on one OS/platform, or one >> protocol with multiple plaforms/OS's. >> >> It seems that the main contention is about protocols, so maybe we >> stick to one platform/OS and test multiple protocols. >> > yea that a good point, maybe we should send an email to the apple > folks for an Xserve/OSX server lisc. for this. > -p Absolutely- perhaps the team that presented would be down with it, since wherever it's written up would be good advert. for Apple machines... Rocket- .ike From kit Wed May 12 15:57:39 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:57:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <4A0F91FC-A429-11D8-8DDC-000393B9FB36@mac.com> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <4A0F91FC-A429-11D8-8DDC-000393B9FB36@mac.com> Message-ID: At 11:30 AM -0400 5/12/04, putamare wrote: >On May 12, 2004, at 12:10 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >>i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker that takes >>industrial design as seriously as apple.... > >Or one that has been dead or dying for for even half as long... SGI. ;) -Kit Anybody wanna buy an INDY? -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From mikel.king Wed May 12 15:58:14 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:58:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40A281D6.2060402@ocsny.com> Sunny Dubey wrote: >On Wednesday 12 May 2004 12:10 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > > > >>wow that's awesome! thank god i've got my asbestos jumpper still on >>;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker >>that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... >> >> >> > >I guess you've never sat down in front of an IBM POWER workstation or >ThinkPad. > >Sunny Dubey >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > With regards to IBM....I just received this tidbit... 3. Office, Beware - Here Comes Workplace >From Business Week (Topic: IBM Workplace), May 10: If it stood on its own, IBM's $15 billion software group would be the world's second-largest software company, trailing only Microsoft. Yet, most of the software IBM makes runs on powerful server computers, and it figures only minimally in desktop computing. That's about to change. http://eletters.cioinsight.com/zd1/cts?d=78-103-1-1-64736-14521-1 From george Wed May 12 15:41:58 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:41:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] webup In-Reply-To: <20040512131826.4dcb9090@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <20040512131826.4dcb9090@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <6E56A9B6-A44C-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 12, 2004, at 1:18 PM, michael wrote: > I'm half way through a writing a script to periodically check whether > my > web servers are responding to http and serving pages, when... > > 1. Somebody must have been here before, I'll check the web > 2. Marc showed me to search ports! > 3. I could just pay a service hundreds of dollars a month for this > > OK, the last one was a joke... true, but a joke... I didn't find > anything, so I'll finish my script. Besides, now I get to choose what > cool features I want . > > Has anybody heard of anything like this? > Michael > What exactly are you checking with the web traffic? Could you be more specific? pings, etc. . and a more primitive way to search the ports that Marc mentioned, besides /usr/port$ make search name= is to bring up the text file of the port listings, and do a ctl-f in your browser. . . (maybe that's what you *are* referring to) Also bsdsearch.com and then of course our very own Dan's freshports. g From george Wed May 12 15:53:56 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:53:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <1A8EDE4A-A44E-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 12, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Wednesday 12 May 2004 12:10 pm, Pete Wright wrote: > >> wow that's awesome! thank god i've got my asbestos jumpper still on >> ;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer >> maker >> that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... >> > > I guess you've never sat down in front of an IBM POWER workstation or > ThinkPad. > > Sunny Dubey > This makes sense. . .the *BSD crowd has a soft spot for Apple, the Linux guy has one for IBM. Why don't we all just wear our own particular tshirt for our next thread? Maybe put a disclaimer on each email. . . g From george Wed May 12 15:49:56 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:49:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 12, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >> We should either use multiple protocols on one OS/platform, or one >> protocol with multiple plaforms/OS's. >> >> It seems that the main contention is about protocols, so maybe we >> stick to one platform/OS and test multiple protocols. >> > yea that a good point, maybe we should send an email to the apple > folks for an Xserve/OSX server lisc. for this. > -p We are still waitiing on them to give us a time and place to test the Xserves. Almost 30 people signed up for that. It will probably be on a weeknight in June, I'd assume. I do think we should be a bit more methodical . . . Yes, we could contact Apple, but we'll have to be a bit more clear. If we are testing networking protocols, then we could try a *BSD box and an XServe, and compare how they are with NFS, SMB, etc. We'd be comparing Xserve to a BSD, but the specs on each wouldn't be comparable. The better bet, IMO, is to try using i386 boxes with the same specs, with each of the relevant OSs (OpenDarwin on i386), then test each protocol that way. It would be much easier to organize, and I think I could find a vendor that would loan us the equipment. . . Of course, we'd have to determine a criteria for tweaks. . .or even basic config. Anybody got a good location? g From ike Wed May 12 16:18:21 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:18:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <83E94304-A451-11D8-A99D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Word all- On May 12, 2004, at 3:49 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > Anybody got a good location? > > g Not sure if this is what you meant, but, I have a good secure home office with a large countertop, 802.11b AP- and even a wee bit of rackspace (but don't see this getting long-term enough to warrant bolting something in place)... My DSL is 1.5/160, one static ip. Not ideal for remote access, but great for lan-party style sessions... 1st stop on L train into Brooklyn, easy as can be to get to... George and Hans have seen my office- (except it's a lot more settled these days). Rocket- .ike From pete Wed May 12 17:22:30 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:22:30 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40A29596.3040900@nomadlogic.org> G. Rosamond wrote: > > On May 12, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >>> >>> We should either use multiple protocols on one OS/platform, or one >>> protocol with multiple plaforms/OS's. >>> >>> It seems that the main contention is about protocols, so maybe we >>> stick to one platform/OS and test multiple protocols. >>> >> yea that a good point, maybe we should send an email to the apple >> folks for an Xserve/OSX server lisc. for this. >> -p > > > We are still waitiing on them to give us a time and place to test the > Xserves. Almost 30 people signed up for that. It will probably be on > a weeknight in June, I'd assume. > > I do think we should be a bit more methodical . . . > > Yes, we could contact Apple, but we'll have to be a bit more clear. yea i totally agree, i was hoping that during BSDcan we can get a methodology hacked out. i'd be willing to draw up a first draft, and we could edit it etc... > > If we are testing networking protocols, then we could try a *BSD box > and an XServe, and compare how they are with NFS, SMB, etc. We'd be > comparing Xserve to a BSD, but the specs on each wouldn't be comparable. > > The better bet, IMO, is to try using i386 boxes with the same specs, > with each of the relevant OSs (OpenDarwin on i386), then test each > protocol that way. > i have not played with OpenDarwin, has anyone on the list? how does it compare to OS X server? maybe it's time to repartition my laptop again ;) it sounds pretty promising... > It would be much easier to organize, and I think I could find a vendor > that would loan us the equipment. . . > > Of course, we'd have to determine a criteria for tweaks. . .or even > basic config. if we were to go the OS X server/Mac route it may make sense to use a pretty vanilla install, which may reflect most OS X server installs in the "real world." this would have the added benefit of being very easy to set up and replicate. > > Anybody got a good location? > i most likely will be able to offer up my office for this, still have to check w/ management etc. it would prolly have to be a weekend type thing tho b/c we run 24/5 most weeks. we have a fair amount of mac's on gig-e and 100base-T running 10.2 and 10.3. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Wed May 12 17:23:32 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:23:32 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <83E94304-A451-11D8-A99D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <83E94304-A451-11D8-A99D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40A295D4.1080304@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Word all- > > On May 12, 2004, at 3:49 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> >> Anybody got a good location? >> >> g > > > Not sure if this is what you meant, but, > I have a good secure home office with a large countertop, 802.11b AP- > and even a wee bit of rackspace (but don't see this getting long-term > enough to warrant bolting something in place)... My DSL is 1.5/160, > one static ip. Not ideal for remote access, but great for lan-party > style sessions... > 1st stop on L train into Brooklyn, easy as can be to get to... hey your in billburg? i just moved back there from alphabet city. cool! -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Wed May 12 17:25:16 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:25:16 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <1A8EDE4A-A44E-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <40A24C66.7020900@nomadlogic.org> <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <1A8EDE4A-A44E-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40A2963C.7060100@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 12, 2004, at 11:29 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Wednesday 12 May 2004 12:10 pm, Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> wow that's awesome! thank god i've got my asbestos jumpper still on >>> ;^) honestly tho, i'd be hard pressed to find any other computer maker >>> that takes industrial design as seriously as apple.... >>> >> >> I guess you've never sat down in front of an IBM POWER workstation or >> ThinkPad. >> >> Sunny Dubey >> > > > This makes sense. . .the *BSD crowd has a soft spot for Apple, the > Linux guy has one for IBM. > > Why don't we all just wear our own particular tshirt for our next > thread? Maybe put a disclaimer on each email. . . i dunno know i have the balls to wear my "Debian/Rocks" t-shirt to any nycbug meetings ;^) -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From sunny-ml Wed May 12 16:25:15 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:25:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <1A8EDE4A-A44E-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <1A8EDE4A-A44E-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200405121625.15025.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 12 May 2004 03:53 pm, you wrote: > This makes sense. . .the *BSD crowd has a soft spot for Apple, the > Linux guy has one for IBM. > I find this patronizing to be highly annoying. Shall I start going on and on about invisible bridging with pf to prove my BSD status ? Or how about the common misconceptions of the BSD ports tree ? Additionally, when did being a *BSD fan automagically subject one to be an Apple fan as well ? My IBM comment comes form the domain of the "real world" and of FreeBSD. An OS that is optimized for x86 hardware, and where the PPC port is pretty weak. Sunny Dubey From ike Wed May 12 16:27:25 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:27:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <40A29596.3040900@nomadlogic.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40A29596.3040900@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Word- On May 12, 2004, at 5:22 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > i most likely will be able to offer up my office for this, still have > to check w/ management etc. it would prolly have to be a weekend type > thing tho b/c we run 24/5 most weeks. we have a fair amount of mac's > on gig-e and 100base-T running 10.2 and 10.3. Your resources sound much more setup than mine for this, I'm still rockin' 10/100 and don't have so many machines- But, I've got space, so if anything falls through... Rocket- .ike From george Wed May 12 16:27:45 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:27:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] disturbing....article.... In-Reply-To: <200405121625.15025.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <40A238CF.8050506@ocsny.com> <200405121129.59866.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <1A8EDE4A-A44E-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405121625.15025.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 12, 2004, at 4:25 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Wednesday 12 May 2004 03:53 pm, you wrote: > >> This makes sense. . .the *BSD crowd has a soft spot for Apple, the >> Linux guy has one for IBM. >> > > I find this patronizing to be highly annoying. Shall I start going on > and > on about invisible bridging with pf to prove my BSD status ? Or how > about > the common misconceptions of the BSD ports tree ? My most serious apologies Sunny. Wasn't meant as that. I thought it was clear I was mocking both. > > Additionally, when did being a *BSD fan automagically subject one to > be an > Apple fan as well ? > Such is the debate that started that should continue. . . > My IBM comment comes form the domain of the "real world" and of > FreeBSD. An > OS that is optimized for x86 hardware, and where the PPC port is pretty > weak. > > Sunny Dubey g From george Wed May 12 16:30:10 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:30:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40A29596.3040900@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <2A456820-A453-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 12, 2004, at 4:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Word- > > On May 12, 2004, at 5:22 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> i most likely will be able to offer up my office for this, still have >> to check w/ management etc. it would prolly have to be a weekend >> type thing tho b/c we run 24/5 most weeks. we have a fair amount of >> mac's on gig-e and 100base-T running 10.2 and 10.3. > > Your resources sound much more setup than mine for this, I'm still > rockin' 10/100 and don't have so many machines- But, I've got space, > so if anything falls through... > > Rocket- > .ike > Regardless of the location, I think that including an Xserve is beyond simple planning. The larger question is about network protocols, from I've followed. g From pete Wed May 12 17:37:04 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:37:04 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <2A456820-A453-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40A29596.3040900@nomadlogic.org> <2A456820-A453-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40A29900.5040102@nomadlogic.org> G. Rosamond wrote: > > On May 12, 2004, at 4:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Word- >> >> On May 12, 2004, at 5:22 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> i most likely will be able to offer up my office for this, still >>> have to check w/ management etc. it would prolly have to be a >>> weekend type thing tho b/c we run 24/5 most weeks. we have a fair >>> amount of mac's on gig-e and 100base-T running 10.2 and 10.3. >> >> >> Your resources sound much more setup than mine for this, I'm still >> rockin' 10/100 and don't have so many machines- But, I've got space, >> so if anything falls through... > execellent, i really don't know what's gonna happen hear in the next month or so, we may book up on weekends or we may be completely dead. >> >> Rocket- >> .ike >> > > > Regardless of the location, I think that including an Xserve is beyond > simple planning. > > The larger question is about network protocols, from I've followed. yea good point. KISS right? -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From JBrown Wed May 12 16:55:42 2004 From: JBrown (Brown, James Jim) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:55:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] webup Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: G.Rosamond [mailto:george at sddi.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 3:42 PM > To: michael > Cc: talk at lists.nycbug.org > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] webup > > > > On May 12, 2004, at 1:18 PM, michael wrote: > > > I'm half way through a writing a script to periodically > check whether > > my > > web servers are responding to http and serving pages, when... > > > > 1. Somebody must have been here before, I'll check the web > > 2. Marc showed me to search ports! > > 3. I could just pay a service hundreds of dollars a month for this (http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=ping&stype=all) So none of these... echoping-5.2.0 - A ping-like program that uses tcp and/or http http_ping-20010709 - Sends HTTP requests every few seconds and times how long they take wping-0.1a - A Web-based graphical ping log do what you want? j Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. ThruPoint, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040512/2aa27a75/attachment.html From george Wed May 12 16:59:57 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:59:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cisco & TCP. . . Message-ID: <532B3CA1-A457-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> If anyone else hasn't following the Cisco/TCP issue, there's a nice set of references and a discussion on undeadly.org Also, I'm putting the OBSD song for 3.5 (just got my sub today). It's *very* relevant to the Cisco mess. . . nycbug.org/song355.ogg g From ike Wed May 12 18:19:45 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:19:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] network protocols: lab time? In-Reply-To: <40A29900.5040102@nomadlogic.org> References: <9230F6F4-A39E-11D8-88EF-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> <200405111911.43019.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40A2369C.70609@nomadlogic.org> <40A26982.3060300@nomadlogic.org> <8B8C0612-A44D-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40A29596.3040900@nomadlogic.org> <2A456820-A453-11D8-ADD9-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40A29900.5040102@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <796D4F32-A462-11D8-A99D-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 12, 2004, at 5:37 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > yea good point. KISS right? > > -p Indeed. :) rocket- .ike From ike Thu May 13 13:01:16 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:01:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP Message-ID: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup all, Starting what we hope will be a series of reports from BSDCAN, some of the NYC crew (and one DC rocker) are en route to Ottawa, currently via I-81. George Rosamond is driving, Bob Ippolito is DJ with the mp3's shotgun, and I'm sharing the back seat with Michael Morefield (DC BSD dude). Currently, we just passed mile marker 65, 'Owanatta County', New York State (near Syracuse). http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp? fakeTab.x=0&fakeTab.y=0&country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&searchtab =address&searchtype=address&address=&city=Syracuse&state=ny&zipcode= With that, anyone is free to join our AP while we have it up, Thx. to Michael Morefield, for bringing his 3G phone and some mad usb modem scripts for it... We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide in true NYCBUG style. That's all to report for now... and the fun hasn't even started yet... Rocket- .ike From lists Thu May 13 13:22:55 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:22:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20040513132255.7c1577f4@delinux.abwatley.com> On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:01:16 -0400 Isaac Levy wrote: > Wordup all, > Currently, we just passed mile marker 65, 'Owanatta County', New York > State (near Syracuse). > We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide in > true NYCBUG style. That is probably one of the coolest things I've read on this list. Guys, I wish I could be there! Please be safe and check in often. Michael -- --- From pete Thu May 13 17:45:56 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:45:56 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40A3EC94.5020102@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Wordup all, > > Starting what we hope will be a series of reports from BSDCAN, some > of the NYC crew (and one DC rocker) are en route to Ottawa, currently > via I-81. > George Rosamond is driving, Bob Ippolito is DJ with the mp3's > shotgun, and I'm sharing the back seat with Michael Morefield (DC BSD > dude). > > Currently, we just passed mile marker 65, 'Owanatta County', New York > State (near Syracuse). > > http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp? > fakeTab.x=0&fakeTab.y=0&country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&searchtab > =address&searchtype=address&address=&city=Syracuse&state=ny&zipcode= > > With that, anyone is free to join our AP while we have it up, Thx. to > Michael Morefield, for bringing his 3G phone and some mad usb modem > scripts for it... > We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide > in true NYCBUG style. > > That's all to report for now... and the fun hasn't even started yet... > wow that's awesome. jesse and i just got into our room at the uni. looks like they have ethernet wired to all the rooms. yea. we are setting up our wi-fi lan right now. we are in room 801 in the residence halls so anyone can feel free to see us! -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jesse Thu May 13 19:25:30 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:25:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <40A3EC94.5020102@nomadlogic.org> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40A3EC94.5020102@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 13, 2004, at 5:45 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Wordup all, >> >> Starting what we hope will be a series of reports from BSDCAN, some >> of the NYC crew (and one DC rocker) are en route to Ottawa, >> currently via I-81. >> George Rosamond is driving, Bob Ippolito is DJ with the mp3's >> shotgun, and I'm sharing the back seat with Michael Morefield (DC >> BSD dude). >> >> Currently, we just passed mile marker 65, 'Owanatta County', New York >> State (near Syracuse). >> >> http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp? >> fakeTab.x=0&fakeTab.y=0&country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&searcht >> ab >> =address&searchtype=address&address=&city=Syracuse&state=ny&zipcode= >> >> With that, anyone is free to join our AP while we have it up, Thx. to >> Michael Morefield, for bringing his 3G phone and some mad usb modem >> scripts for it... >> We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide >> in true NYCBUG style. >> >> That's all to report for now... and the fun hasn't even started >> yet... >> > > wow that's awesome. jesse and i just got into our room at the uni. > looks like they have ethernet wired to all the rooms. yea. we are > setting up our wi-fi lan right now. we are in room 801 in the > residence halls so anyone can feel free to see us! > > > -pete Everyone I know has a cel phone, but I am excited having brought my VoIP device from home. Now my home phone number works on the dorm phone here. Local calls (718) to my friends! From sunny-ml Thu May 13 20:36:34 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:36:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <200405132036.35007.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Thursday 13 May 2004 01:01 pm, Isaac Levy wrote: > Michael Morefield, for bringing his 3G phone and some mad usb modem > scripts for it... > We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide in > true NYCBUG style. sounds like the setup of a friend of mine ... What you need to do is sign up Sprint's Vision plan. Then you need to get a phone that can be hacked into working like a standard modem. So essentially for an extra 10 dollars per month, you have unlimited 112k cell phone data service. (this sure beats my limited 19k 2G for 5 bucks a month) Its also pretty hot because you don't have to pay per k transferred. Sunny Dubey From george Thu May 13 18:59:45 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:59:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <40A3EC94.5020102@nomadlogic.org> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40A3EC94.5020102@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <3A46A88A-A531-11D8-849D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 13, 2004, at 5:45 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Wordup all, >> >> Starting what we hope will be a series of reports from BSDCAN, some >> of the NYC crew (and one DC rocker) are en route to Ottawa, >> currently via I-81. >> George Rosamond is driving, Bob Ippolito is DJ with the mp3's >> shotgun, and I'm sharing the back seat with Michael Morefield (DC >> BSD dude). >> >> Currently, we just passed mile marker 65, 'Owanatta County', New York >> State (near Syracuse). >> >> http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp? >> fakeTab.x=0&fakeTab.y=0&country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&searcht >> ab >> =address&searchtype=address&address=&city=Syracuse&state=ny&zipcode= >> >> With that, anyone is free to join our AP while we have it up, Thx. to >> Michael Morefield, for bringing his 3G phone and some mad usb modem >> scripts for it... >> We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide >> in true NYCBUG style. >> >> That's all to report for now... and the fun hasn't even started >> yet... >> > > wow that's awesome. jesse and i just got into our room at the uni. > looks like they have ethernet wired to all the rooms. yea. we are > setting up our wi-fi lan right now. we are in room 801 in the > residence halls so anyone can feel free to see us! > > > -pete Nice. . .we're in the bar. . .we'll take this offlist now. . .sorry for interrupting any local discussions. We just arrived in Ottawa. . many many access points. of course it stated to pour once we got here. . . g 917-968=1900 From george Thu May 13 23:32:30 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:32:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <200405132036.35007.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <200405132036.35007.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <5468A54C-A557-11D8-9628-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 13, 2004, at 8:36 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 13 May 2004 01:01 pm, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Michael Morefield, for bringing his 3G phone and some mad usb modem >> scripts for it... >> We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide in >> true NYCBUG style. > > sounds like the setup of a friend of mine ... > > What you need to do is sign up Sprint's Vision plan. Then you need to > get a > phone that can be hacked into working like a standard modem. So > essentially for an extra 10 dollars per month, you have unlimited 112k > cell > phone data service. (this sure beats my limited 19k 2G for 5 bucks a > month) > > Its also pretty hot because you don't have to pay per k transferred. > > Sunny Dubey That would be great if Sprint had decent coverage. It's amazing. . .we're staying in dorms, but you have to go outside to find an ap. tomorrow the conference starts. . .we'll keep you informed. g From george Thu May 13 23:46:32 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:46:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <20040513132255.7c1577f4@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <20040513132255.7c1577f4@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <4A0C4A56-A559-11D8-9628-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 13, 2004, at 1:22 PM, michael wrote: > On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:01:16 -0400 > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Wordup all, > > > >> Currently, we just passed mile marker 65, 'Owanatta County', New York >> State (near Syracuse). > > > >> We're driving a Green Honda Civic. We're doing our best to provide in >> true NYCBUG style. > > > That is probably one of the coolest things I've read on this list. > Guys, I wish I could be there! Please be safe and check in often. > > Michael > > And we wish you were all here. . . It's all been an experience. . .and the conference hasn't even started. . . There's a good buzz in Ottawa. . .bUUUt (in canadian), eh, it's not exactly much of a place. Ike has lots of guts. . .he ordered pizza here. . .Next he'll be eating Lender's bagels. He had to wait 7 minutes for the pizza, because the *microwave* wasn't heated up. We'll keep you all posted. g From chrislist Fri May 14 07:22:32 2004 From: chrislist (Chris McCulloh) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:22:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Northbound I-81, WiFi AP In-Reply-To: <3A46A88A-A531-11D8-849D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <25CA6232-A4FF-11D8-AE6E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40A3EC94.5020102@nomadlogic.org> <3A46A88A-A531-11D8-849D-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040514072232.0fbcabe6@st0wable> On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:59:45 -0400 G.Rosamond said: > Nice. . .we're in the bar. . .we'll take this offlist now. . .sorry for > interrupting any local discussions. > > We just arrived in Ottawa. . many many access points. Not an interruption at all. I, for one, love hearing all the details, since I'm not able to be there. Keep keeping us all posted! -chris btw, the WiFi on the highway was awesome. I kept imagining somebody randomly wardriving on the highway and finding a signal that never changed in intensity, and then tracking down the green Civic. Priceless. -- Chris McCulloh Secure Systems Architect Sinetimore, LLC e: cmcculloh at sinetimore.com t: 212.504.0288 f: 212.656.1469 w: http://www.sinetimore.com a: 40 Broad Street, 4th Floor, New York, NY 10004, USA key: http://www.sinetimore.com/chriskey.pub : [ 9508 07E0 9E6C DD05 4419 40FA 4D96 FD82 24CE 0273 ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040514/6da96c29/attachment.bin From its Tue May 18 13:56:17 2004 From: its (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:56:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? Message-ID: How was it? From dan Tue May 18 14:07:04 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] graphic on main page Message-ID: <20040518140421.V68594@xeon.unixathome.org> The Daemon News graphic at the bottom of http://www.nycbug.org/ is 480x101. The HTML has it at 250x101. I think the HTML should be changed. Or perhaps the graphic adjusted, but I don't think this is the better solution. -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From dan Tue May 18 14:08:21 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] mailing list archives password protected? Message-ID: <20040518140711.N68594@xeon.unixathome.org> The link on the home page takes me to http://lists.nycbug.org/ and asked me for a username and password. What is the username and password? -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From pete Tue May 18 15:09:27 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:09:27 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AA5F67.6070809@nomadlogic.org> Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > How was it? it was pretty great, not sure if my email made it to the list. some pics: www.nomadlogic.org/bsdcan/ also daemonnews.org at: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200405/bsdcan_2004/ the pf talk was great, there was a great CARP demo that i think would be real fun to setup for a future meeting. theo gave a great talk, jesse and i went to the GEOM tutorial with PHK which was great. GEOM is very promising, especially with the emerging iSCSI protocol. they are doing another conf. next year dan said, and phk is going to try to get most of the FreeBSD dev's there. and uh yea, the beer was pretty OK too ;^) -pete > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From its Tue May 18 14:35:25 2004 From: its (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:35:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <40AA5F67.6070809@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AA5F67.6070809@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <209F1630-A8FA-11D8-9FDF-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> On May 18, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Brad Schonhorst wrote: > >> >> How was it? > > > it was pretty great, not sure if my email made it to the list. some > pics: > www.nomadlogic.org/bsdcan/ > also daemonnews.org at: > http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200405/bsdcan_2004/ I love how the first picture is at the bar! From pete Tue May 18 15:37:11 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:37:11 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <209F1630-A8FA-11D8-9FDF-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> References: <40AA5F67.6070809@nomadlogic.org> <209F1630-A8FA-11D8-9FDF-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> Message-ID: <40AA65E7.3060502@nomadlogic.org> Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > On May 18, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Brad Schonhorst wrote: >> >>> >>> How was it? >> >> >> >> it was pretty great, not sure if my email made it to the list. some >> pics: >> www.nomadlogic.org/bsdcan/ >> also daemonnews.org at: >> http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200405/bsdcan_2004/ > > > I love how the first picture is at the bar! > oh yea...there definatly was a theme! -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Tue May 18 14:39:12 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <40AA65E7.3060502@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AA5F67.6070809@nomadlogic.org> <209F1630-A8FA-11D8-9FDF-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <40AA65E7.3060502@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 18, 2004, at 3:37 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Brad Schonhorst wrote: > >> >> On May 18, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Pete Wright wrote: >> >>> Brad Schonhorst wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> How was it? >>> >>> it was pretty great, not sure if my email made it to the list. some >>> pics: >>> www.nomadlogic.org/bsdcan/ >>> also daemonnews.org at: >>> http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200405/bsdcan_2004/ >> >> >> I love how the first picture is at the bar! >> > oh yea...there definatly was a theme! Wait, you mean there was a conference too? All I remember is the beer :) -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040518/57b235b8/attachment.bin From dan Tue May 18 14:42:58 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <40AA65E7.3060502@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AA5F67.6070809@nomadlogic.org> <209F1630-A8FA-11D8-9FDF-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <40AA65E7.3060502@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040518143956.U68594@xeon.unixathome.org> On Tue, 18 May 2004, Pete Wright wrote: > Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > > > > On May 18, 2004, at 3:09 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > >> Brad Schonhorst wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> How was it? > >> > >> > >> > >> it was pretty great, not sure if my email made it to the list. some > >> pics: > >> www.nomadlogic.org/bsdcan/ > >> also daemonnews.org at: > >> http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200405/bsdcan_2004/ > > > > > > I love how the first picture is at the bar! The talks started on Friday.... Those pics are from Thursday lunch I think. Registration didn't start until about 4pm, by which time there was about 30 or 40 people hanging around. By the end of the night, about 60 or 70 registration packs had been picked up. > oh yea...there definatly was a theme! Socializing is an important part of network building. Heh. The orgranizor of OLS (Ottawa Linux Symposium) thought having registration at the pub was "taking it one step further".... ;) -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From hans Tue May 18 15:19:49 2004 From: hans (Hans Zaunere) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:19:49 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mailing list archives password protected? Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F87020134AF@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> > The link on the home page takes me to > http://lists.nycbug.org/ and asked me for a username and password. > > What is the username and password? There have been some DNS issues over the last couple of days. The DNS hoster has been fixed, but propagate delays, etc. H From george Tue May 18 15:05:45 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:05:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] mailing list archives password protected? In-Reply-To: <20040518140711.N68594@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040518140711.N68594@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: <5DA76ECE-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 18, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > The link on the home page takes me to http://lists.nycbug.org/ and > asked > me for a username and password. > > What is the username and password? > > -- > Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ > _______________________________________________ > I'm aware. . .we're dealing with the various related technical problems. . . g From george Tue May 18 15:05:32 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:05:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] graphic on main page In-Reply-To: <20040518140421.V68594@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040518140421.V68594@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: <5620C5EC-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 18, 2004, at 2:07 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > The Daemon News graphic at the bottom of http://www.nycbug.org/ is > 480x101. The HTML has it at 250x101. I think the HTML should be > changed. > Or perhaps the graphic adjusted, but I don't think this is the better > solution. > > -- > Thanks Dan. . we're replacing the entire site in the near future. . . right mr. Lists? g From george Tue May 18 15:04:22 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:04:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 18, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > How was it? > > Boring as hell. . .but the pizza in Ottawa was great. ;-) I think we'll all be posting notes up soon. . .along with pictures. Check out the pictures up on DN. . bsdnews.com g From bob Tue May 18 15:43:59 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:43:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On May 18, 2004, at 3:04 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 18, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote: > >> >> How was it? >> >> > > Boring as hell. . .but the pizza in Ottawa was great. > > ;-) Not to mention the swank penthouses we stayed at in uOttowa res, talk about living it up! -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040518/50a9ac51/attachment.bin From dan Tue May 18 15:47:02 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040518154646.X77437@xeon.unixathome.org> On Tue, 18 May 2004, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Not to mention the swank penthouses we stayed at in uOttowa res, talk > about living it up! Do tell us more about that! I saw only my room. -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From george Tue May 18 15:50:24 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:50:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <9A7FCCD2-A904-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 18, 2004, at 3:43 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> > > Not to mention the swank penthouses we stayed at in uOttowa res, talk > about living it up! > > -bob Ditto. . . In all seriousness, I think we all thoroughly enjoyed the conference, and learned a lot from the meetings. But truly invaluable were the contacts, listening to the experiences of others, etc. I met so many people over drinks. Found a number on the same wavelength, even in relation to a number of specific ideas we had during meeting discussions. There was one guy from the Netherlands (not Norweigian, inside joke) who had many of the same issues/approaches with our very own Dan Langille's Bacula, in terms of using for consulting. I highly recommend everyone reading Dru's piece on ORA. . . http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/4891 I don't think anyone could sum it up better. . . g From ike Tue May 18 15:52:03 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:52:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <20040518154646.X77437@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040518154646.X77437@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: Wordup all, On May 18, 2004, at 3:47 PM, Dan Langille wrote: >> Not to mention the swank penthouses we stayed at in uOttowa res, talk >> about living it up! > > Do tell us more about that! I saw only my room. I thought they were great, personally. Didn't spend a whole lot of time in it, and the price was right. Rocket- .ike From pete Tue May 18 17:06:46 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:06:46 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <9A7FCCD2-A904-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <9A7FCCD2-A904-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40AA7AE6.2010405@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 18, 2004, at 3:43 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >>> >> >> Not to mention the swank penthouses we stayed at in uOttowa res, talk >> about living it up! >> >> -bob > > > Ditto. . . > > In all seriousness, I think we all thoroughly enjoyed the conference, > and learned a lot from the meetings. But truly invaluable were the > contacts, listening to the experiences of others, etc. > > I met so many people over drinks. Found a number on the same > wavelength, even in relation to a number of specific ideas we had > during meeting discussions. There was one guy from the Netherlands > (not Norweigian, inside joke) who had many of the same > issues/approaches with our very own Dan Langille's Bacula, in terms of > using for consulting. > > I highly recommend everyone reading Dru's piece on ORA. . . > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/4891 > > I don't think anyone could sum it up better. . . yea i couldn't put it better! i think the only thing we didn't accomplish at BSDCan was convincing any locals to invaded the states and replace our healthcare system ;^) -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From ike Tue May 18 16:14:11 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:14:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <40AA7AE6.2010405@nomadlogic.org> References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <9A7FCCD2-A904-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AA7AE6.2010405@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 18, 2004, at 5:06 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > yea i couldn't put it better! i think the only thing we didn't > accomplish at BSDCan was convincing any locals to invaded the states > and replace our healthcare system ;^) Yeah- seems like a country with CHILDREN SLEDING on the back of their $5 bill has other stuff on their mind than war... Really cool culture and people, I must say. Rocket- .ike From george Tue May 18 17:15:07 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:15:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <9A7FCCD2-A904-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AA7AE6.2010405@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 18, 2004, at 4:14 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 18, 2004, at 5:06 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> yea i couldn't put it better! i think the only thing we didn't >> accomplish at BSDCan was convincing any locals to invaded the states >> and replace our healthcare system ;^) > > Yeah- seems like a country with CHILDREN SLEDING on the back of their > $5 bill has other stuff on their mind than war... Really cool culture > and people, I must say. > > Rocket- > .ike > I didn't make every session, since I was at the BSDMall table a lot, but this is what I did hit: Theo's talk on Exploit Mitigation Techiques I'm not a developer, but understood the issues and methods before hand. Covered the ProPolice issue, W^X/W XOR X, and more. Fascinating meeting. Ryan McBride's talk on pf It was labelled an intro meeting, but it was more like an overview about the functionality, not writing firewall rulesets (phew). Interestingly, the origins of CARP is with SAMBA. . . Dan's talk on Bacula Much thought still going on here with this topic. . .I knew about the technology already, but have some ideas for some funky implementations and add-ons. Paul X (always forget his hyphenated Scandanavian last name, and am too tired to lookup) on GBDE Essentially a followup on the earlier GEOM talk which I missed, but explored the various issues related to the FreeBSD encryption method. I highly recommend reading his paper, which I'll post the url of in my notes, particularly for those who were at Roland's talk on NetBSD's cgd. I'm sure there were more talks I attended, but it's all a bit blurry at the moment. . . The discussions in the car, at the bar, in the hall, etc were truly remarkable. We all sit in our little atomized worlds, interacting reguarly, but never having the space to adequately address things. . .This was different. It wasn't just exhausting since we went out and drank much each night, but rather since our brains were in constant motion. If anyone feels otherwise, I want to hear about it. More to come later. . .from meeting notes. . . Plus my pictures. Don't worry JC, won't put them *all* up g From ike Tue May 18 17:52:18 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 17:52:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Mailman SMIME handler note Message-ID: Hi All, Bob, George, and I all had a talk with regard to regular use of PGP and, Bob expressed frustration with SMIME handlers in Mailing List software, (expressing his preference for MIME-attached PGP and GPG keys, instead of the messy text) Anyhow, after discussing some MailMan hacks, I dug around the Mailman source and then read the Documentation with the current source, and found that somebody already wrote a fix- Just thought I'd post this info to the list, so any new and future mailman lists can be all cool and friendly with SMIME handlers and not strip/mung up SMIME attached keys. From $mailmanSource/NEWS - Mail handling o Content filtering now has a pass_mime_type variable, which is a whitelist of MIME types to allow in postings. See the details of the variable in the Content Filtering category for more information. o Content filtering now has a filter_action variable which controls what happens when a message matches the content filter rules. The default is still to discard the message. Rocket- .ike From sunny-ml Tue May 18 18:27:33 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:27:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200405181827.33387.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 18 May 2004 05:15 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > Theo's talk on Exploit Mitigation Techiques > > I'm not a developer, but understood the issues and methods before hand. > Covered the ProPolice issue, W^X/W XOR X, and more. Fascinating > meeting. Did they speak about how Intel's amd64 CPU doesn't have No-Execute ? I'm interested in knowning if this requires a seperate kernel to be compiled for both CPUs, or a single kernel can detect NX support and simple enable/disable it ? Sunny Dubey From sunny-ml Tue May 18 18:39:07 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:39:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <200405181827.33387.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405181827.33387.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200405181839.07724.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 18 May 2004 06:27 pm, Sunny Dubey wrote: > Did they speak about how Intel's amd64 CPU doesn't have No-Execute ? > > I'm interested in knowning if this requires a seperate kernel to be > compiled for both CPUs, or a single kernel can detect NX support and > simple enable/disable it ? Actually, I'm more interested in where the OpenBSD guys got Intel's amd64 chips to test their code on. Obviously it would have to be from Intel directly, but even the Obsd guys talking about actually using those chips is somewhat surprising. Most people weren't even aware Intel started fabbing any of their yamhill work. Sunny Dubey From trish Tue May 18 18:44:01 2004 From: trish (Trish Lynch) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <2BFBAD09-A8FE-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <9A7FCCD2-A904-11D8-BF0A-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AA7AE6.2010405@nomadlogic.org> <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040518184323.G46273@ultra.bsdunix.net> uOn Tue, 18 May 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > The discussions in the car, at the bar, in the hall, etc were truly > remarkable. We all sit in our little atomized worlds, interacting > reguarly, but never having the space to adequately address things. . > .This was different. It wasn't just exhausting since we went out and > drank much each night, but rather since our brains were in constant > motion. If anyone feels otherwise, I want to hear about it. > End of June, beginning of July, you'll get the same on a grander scale at USENIX in Boston. Everyone should go :) -Trish -- Trish Lynch trish at bsdunix.net Ecartis Core Team trish at listmistress.org EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at AilleCat at EFNet Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919 0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16 From bob Tue May 18 18:46:58 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:46:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Mailman SMIME handler note In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <450A4758-A91D-11D8-A675-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 18, 2004, at 5:52 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Bob, George, and I all had a talk with regard to regular use of PGP > and, Bob expressed frustration with SMIME handlers in Mailing List > software, (expressing his preference for MIME-attached PGP and GPG > keys, instead of the messy text) Clarification: I don't like OpenPGP keys, because they throw in ugly text ("ASCII armor") that most mail readers don't ignore, even when you are using multipart/signed. S/MIME is neither PGP nor GPG, it's an RSA thing. For those of you that do not currently have an S/MIME cert, you can get a free "Personal Freemail" certificate from Thawte. You don't get to put your name on the certificate until you've done the whole "web of trust" thing a few times over (which I have not done, so I can't help anyone there). If you're using Apple Mail, this is an excellent tutorial for getting started with S/MIME: http://joar.com/certificates/ -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040518/b251d7f8/attachment.bin From bob Tue May 18 18:51:54 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:51:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdcan? In-Reply-To: <200405181839.07724.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <706CC90D-A910-11D8-AAC3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405181827.33387.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <200405181839.07724.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: On May 18, 2004, at 6:39 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Tuesday 18 May 2004 06:27 pm, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> Did they speak about how Intel's amd64 CPU doesn't have No-Execute ? Theo mentioned this, and he also mentioned that Microsoft won't let them sell the chip until they have the flag. >> I'm interested in knowning if this requires a seperate kernel to be >> compiled for both CPUs, or a single kernel can detect NX support and >> simple enable/disable it ? I don't recall this being mentioned. From the way he talked about it, it sounds like they will probably fix it before the chip ships anyhow due to the pressure from Microsoft. > Actually, I'm more interested in where the OpenBSD guys got Intel's > amd64 > chips to test their code on. > > Obviously it would have to be from Intel directly, but even the Obsd > guys > talking about actually using those chips is somewhat surprising. Most > people weren't even aware Intel started fabbing any of their yamhill > work. The way Theo talked about it, the acquired samples of the chip from Intel directly. He also felt it necessary to mention that Intel calls him, not vice versa. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040518/bd0d1741/attachment.bin From mikel.king Wed May 19 08:47:09 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:47:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple thwarting Redmond? Message-ID: <40AB574D.6050901@ocsny.com> Apple Looks to Patent Translucent Windows Microsoft once again has looked to Apple for interface ideas--but this time, the hip technology company isn't standing still. Apple has moved to patent its cool, see-through Windows technology to forestall Longhorn. Will it work? Want more details? Our story looks into the claims. Apple Patents Windows: http://eletters.wnn.ziffdavis.com/zd1/cts?d=75-211-1-1-436895-9107-1 Thoughts, feelings, concerns? From mikel.king Wed May 19 09:07:37 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:07:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cisco oops.... Message-ID: <40AB5C19.1000004@ocsny.com> Cisco Source Code Reportedly Stolen By Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols May 18, 2004 **Updated:* The FBI is investigating the possible theft of source code for Cisco's main networking device operating system. * http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1594322,00.asp So what are the chances of this worming it's way into Linux, and possibly BSD? Think anyone would be dumb enough to... well you know... From pete Wed May 19 09:12:58 2004 From: pete (pete wright) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:12:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cisco oops.... In-Reply-To: <40AB5C19.1000004@ocsny.com> References: <40AB5C19.1000004@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <3F634E5E-A996-11D8-8BC6-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> On May 19, 2004, at 9:07 AM, Mikel King wrote: > > > Cisco Source Code Reportedly Stolen > By Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols > > May 18, 2004 > > **Updated:* The FBI is investigating the possible theft of source code > for Cisco's main networking device operating system. * > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1594322,00.asp > > > So what are the chances of this worming it's way into Linux, and > possibly BSD? Think anyone would be dumb enough to... well you i'd think pretty low, being opensource i would expect a wee bit more peer review would happen before code is merged into the source tree. esp. with the whole SCO fiasco going on with GNU/Linux right now...i'd be more worried if i was a large CISCO client right now, it looks like they yanked the code off an internal solaris machine, so who knows what other info they have. -pete > know... > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From lists Wed May 19 09:18:23 2004 From: lists (michael) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:18:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple thwarting Redmond? In-Reply-To: <40AB574D.6050901@ocsny.com> References: <40AB574D.6050901@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <20040519091823.65ae5954@delinux.abwatley.com> On Wed, 19 May 2004 08:47:09 -0400 Mikel King wrote: > Apple Looks to Patent Translucent Windows > Thoughts, feelings, concerns? Form Link: According to the filing, the patent covers a method in which "information-bearing windows whose contents remain unchanged for a predetermined period of time become translucent." The translucency would intensify the longer a window's content remains unchanged, the patent application states. Translucent / Transparent terminal windows were all the rage a while back on [flux|black|open]box window managers. I'll admit tailing the access log in a clear Eterm window set against the root window was l33t for about a day. But that is just me. Having windows slowly disappear (the patent) would seem similarly annoying. My opinion on this patent? There's nothing to see here.. move along. > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- --- From sunny-ml Wed May 19 10:22:18 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:22:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple thwarting Redmond? In-Reply-To: <20040519091823.65ae5954@delinux.abwatley.com> References: <40AB574D.6050901@ocsny.com> <20040519091823.65ae5954@delinux.abwatley.com> Message-ID: <200405191022.18892.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 19 May 2004 09:18 am, michael wrote: > Having windows slowly disappear (the patent) would seem similarly > annoying. My opinion on this patent? There's nothing to see here.. > move along. > The mere fact this patent can exist is bad enough. So when is Apple actually going to help the FLOSS community by granting their TrueType patents under some OSS license ? Sunny Dubey From mlists Wed May 19 10:28:57 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:28:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cisco oops.... In-Reply-To: <3F634E5E-A996-11D8-8BC6-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AB5C19.1000004@ocsny.com> <3F634E5E-A996-11D8-8BC6-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040519142857.GL15056@bizintegrators.com> > >**Updated:* The FBI is investigating the possible theft of source code > >for Cisco's main networking device operating system. * > > > >http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1594322,00.asp > > > > > >So what are the chances of this worming it's way into Linux, and > >possibly BSD? Think anyone would be dumb enough to... well you > > i'd think pretty low, being opensource i would expect a wee bit more > peer review would happen before code is merged into the source tree. > esp. with the whole SCO fiasco going on with GNU/Linux right now...i'd > be more worried if i was a large CISCO client right now, it looks like > they yanked the code off an internal solaris machine, so who knows what > other info they have. The thing is, Ciscos are used at many important places, backbones, and so on, where there is no Linux or BSD. If you crash a company webserver, well not good, but if you crash their uplink, that is a lot worse. Also, I'm not so sure Cisco code is very pretty / stable, they are known to have undocumented comands for example, and since companies like Cisco and MS make such a big deal of their software, it just sounds like there might be quite a bit of bugs in there. At least if anything bad happens, they will get fixed. :) -bruno From jesse Wed May 19 12:58:25 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:58:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: BSD HFS/HFS+ module In-Reply-To: <20040519105404.GB25754@comp.chem.msu.su> References: <40AA99CF.1040007@theholymountain.com> <20040519105404.GB25754@comp.chem.msu.su> Message-ID: <40AB9231.9050103@theholymountain.com> Yar Tikhiy wrote: > Hi Jesse, > > On Tue, May 18, 2004 at 07:18:39PM -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote: > >>Great job! I'm so excited that someone has been porting this code. Since > > > Thank you! It's a shame that I've had little time lately > to dedicate to this project. > > >>it seems to be specific to FreeBSD are you taking advantage of GEOM? > > > Not explicitly. Since GEOM is just a layer on the top of disks, > everyone using block devices benefits from GEOM. In particular, > GEOM supports Apple's disk partitioning scheme, thus allowing to > access Apple partitions as disk slice devices (/dev/da0s1 etc.) I found some great tools for the Mac PPC users. 'hfsutils' allows for manipulation of the HFS (not HFS+) fs. It is a suite of seperate user utilities to do most things you'd want to. Platform agnostic. http://www.mars.org/home/rob/proj/hfs/ But this one takes the cake, and is the real influence for posting: Native support in FreeBSD 5.2. Supports everything except doing the actual journaling on journaled fs's. http://people.freebsd.org/~yar/hfs/ I obviously hadn't read the GEOM_APPLE module stuff when I wrote to Yar, who is CC'd because I didn't tell him this was going on a mailing list. I haven't tried either of these out. I'm busy with VMWare and OpenBSD right now. I thought SCSI would be a more straightforward emulation than IDE. Nevertheless I'm getting this horrible error: bha3: mbi not in round-robin order on any of the disks which gets heavy use. -jesse From george Wed May 19 17:52:09 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:52:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment Message-ID: Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to lend us hardware for any test scenario. I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around networking protocols. One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, we're comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare architectures. Thoughts? Who is interested in taking a lead on this? g From george Wed May 19 17:58:38 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:58:38 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Some BSDCan notes Message-ID: Here are some brief notes I compiled during the BSDCan meetings. Sorry if some of it seems a bit disconnected. I find, particularly so many years after college, that notes are a distraction to understanding a presentation. Will be putting some of the trip pictures up on DN at some point in the near future. . . g 3:30 pm Paul GBDE Ease of changing passwd? Can't be broken until AES is cracked More productive to get the passphrase no differential crack possible. . .which is a weakness in AES algorithm review good passphrase characteristics can pull passphrase from anywhere: keyboard, usb key, etc two parts= sth you know + something you have simple steps to implement http://phk.freebsd.dk/pubs for slides weaknesses in CGD: can't chance passwd without reencrypting not for enterprise = = = = = = = = = = = = = pf talk, Ryan McBride what you can could with it and why you should use it. protocol based os fingerprinting, based on syn packet based on p0f, but can be spoofed redirection, nat, binat nat'g source port dos bandwidth based difficult to deal with other dos attacks can be defended against synproxy altq redundancy: pfsync carp load balancing carp started with samba servers. . .redundancy force routing. . .multihomed firewall but bgp is still better. . . if stateful connection, carp can be a problem with eg, key exchange, etc. NYCBUG tutorial? = = = = = = = = = = = Friday, May 14, 11:30 am Dan Langille, Bacula Kern in Switzerland is the developer Native Windows application as backup client tar/scp, to rsync, but it doesn't solve dated material with rotation. four main daemons, could be on separate machines: storage, to access files, disk, as operator client, run as wheel/root director, manages others, as special console, command line, talks to director, backups and restores from here web interface, php-based no need for cron. . .all internal to Bacula restoring to windows, bare window restore, done by someone? remote verification md5, "no need to do test restore" DL configuration files bacula-dir.conf bacula- bacula- bacula- Untrusted networks. . . need for two tunnels dir to file client file client to storage daemon port redirection through firewall with NAT mailing list has over 500 subs, busier than FBSD-hacker list little noise question: win laptops. . .sporatic uptime question: interruptions? question: clients doing restore via www interface question: why no use ipsec, since it's one to one, as opposed to ssl, which is one to many question: HFS+. . .does run on OS X, both client and servers, resource fork problems question: minimum database requirement. . .can use sql lite, as long as db not over 2 gig. if not, postgres question: win client, email notification of successful job question: file system readable? yes/no. can't use tar to read. question: encryption. . do it from client side. question: more encryption question: compression? yes. ..over network included. question: how to idiot-proof client restores. question: console is interactive question: it's in ports, debian, mandrake question: unison, different versions won't talk. doesn't need same version, depends is protocol has changed From ike Wed May 19 18:06:46 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:06:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wordemup all, On May 19, 2004, at 5:52 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to > lend us hardware for any test scenario. Sweet! > > I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and > OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around > networking protocols. Actually, agreed for the moment... Seems like pf, with the new pfsync and carp mania is taking off in some new directions, so this could be more appropriate in a few months IMHO... once folks have more familiarity with it all- > > One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, > we're comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare > architectures. I'm in- and have enough experience to make the architectural differences relatively painless (i.e. I've got our back on mac). > > Thoughts? > > Who is interested in taking a lead on this? I don't know about lead, but count me in. If it's a lead that's necessary, I'll do it, but not until after next NYCBUG meeting can I commit the time. Rocket- .ike From pete Wed May 19 19:08:51 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:08:51 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40ABE903.70601@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to > lend us hardware for any test scenario. that's great! > > I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and > OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around > networking protocols. > frankly after the CARP demo i'd love to check that out. like i said before, that might make a great NYCBUG meeting too... > One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, > we're comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare > architectures. > > Thoughts? > > Who is interested in taking a lead on this? > i'd love to take part in all of this....maybe not as a lead tho. my work schedule is too unpredictable unfortunatly :( -p > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Wed May 19 18:10:02 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:10:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 19, 2004, at 6:06 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Wordemup all, > > On May 19, 2004, at 5:52 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to >> lend us hardware for any test scenario. > > Sweet! > >> >> I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and >> OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around >> networking protocols. > > Actually, agreed for the moment... Seems like pf, with the new pfsync > and carp mania is taking off in some new directions, so this could be > more appropriate in a few months IMHO... once folks have more > familiarity with it all- But the problem, again, is that it's not about CARP, etc, and the other funky OBSD pf features. We need to create a test environment, so we have to have each variable controlled. Not to sound like I just took 6th grade science. . . > >> >> One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, >> we're comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare >> architectures. > > I'm in- and have enough experience to make the architectural > differences relatively painless (i.e. I've got our back on mac). > But what are we comparing then? >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Who is interested in taking a lead on this? > > I don't know about lead, but count me in. If it's a lead that's > necessary, I'll do it, but not until after next NYCBUG meeting can I > commit the time. I take that as volunteering. . . g From ike Wed May 19 18:21:26 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:21:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment Message-ID: Hi all, New thread here, Wanted to start a running list of file protocols which we'd all like to see included in a lab-style comparison test. Anyone is invited to add a protocol to the list, even if you don't plan to participate in the testing... Please feel free to copy/paste the below list and add to it, in this thread. -- File Protocol Possibility List: Open Standards: NFS WebDAV Quasi Proprietary: SMB (Samba, Windows) AFP (Apple File Protocol, over TCP/IP) AFP over AppleTalk (can happen on *nix and apple rigs) -- What else? This list is mighty slim- (is that a good thing?) Rocket- .ike From pete Wed May 19 19:24:50 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:24:50 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi all, New thread here, > > Wanted to start a running list of file protocols which we'd all like > to see included in a lab-style comparison test. Anyone is invited to > add a protocol to the list, even if you don't plan to participate in > the testing... > > Please feel free to copy/paste the below list and add to it, in this > thread. > > -- > File Protocol Possibility List: > > Open Standards: > NFS NFSv4(seems pretty scarry from what i heard at the BSDCAN BOF) > WebDAV > > Quasi Proprietary: > SMB (Samba, Windows) > AFP (Apple File Protocol, over TCP/IP) > AFP over AppleTalk (can happen on *nix and apple rigs) > > -- > > What else? This list is mighty slim- (is that a good thing?) > > Rocket- > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Wed May 19 18:35:06 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:35:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Welcome to the O'Reilly User Group Program Message-ID: This is from O'Reilly. . .We are now registered on ug.oreilly.com Some nice benefits here. . . Begin forwarded message: > From: Marsee Henon > Date: May 19, 2004 6:13:14 PM EDT > To: george at nycbug.org > Subject: Welcome to the O'Reilly User Group Program > > Thank you for registering for the O'Reilly User Group Program. > > Welcome! > > Here are details about the program you should know--PLEASE READ: > > O'Reilly offers free review copies of our books. 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They may place an order online at www.oreilly.com or by > calling 800-998-9938. Your members are also entitled to a 20% discount > on O'Reilly conferences and tutorials. Other special discount offers > may also be forwarded to your group from time to time. > > In addition, we regularly donate books and other promotional items for > raffles or auctions to help your group raise money, or for meeting door > prizes--just let me know if you're in need of something. (Allow at > least three weeks for shipping.) Please feel free to request our > catalogs anytime. > > Some of our authors are able to speak at user group meetings--let us > know if you are interested and we'll do what we can to help arrange > speakers. > > We'll also send you links to articles, tips, and book news from the > O'Reilly web sites via the UG newsletter. If you opted not to receive > the newsletter, you may want to reconsider, as this is the best way to > know which books are being released, and serves as a reminder to > request review copies for your group. Many groups post the newsletters > to their members list or on their web site. > > What you can do for O'Reilly: > > - Add an O'Reilly Banner or RSS feed to your web site from our UG page: > http://ug.oreilly.com/ > If you don't have a web site, please post O'Reilly information in > your newsletters or mailing lists. > > - Encourage your members to review our books and post the reviews on > your site or discussion lists, in your newsletters, or at any online > book review site such as Amazon, Slashdot, or Barnes & Noble--making > sure to notify me when a review is written. > For book review suggestions go to: > http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html > > > Please let me know if you have any questions. I look forward to working > with you. > > --Marsee Henon > From sunny-ml Wed May 19 21:01:41 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:01:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 19 May 2004 05:52 pm, G.Rosamond wrote: > Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to lend > us hardware for any test scenario. > > I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and > OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around > networking protocols. > > One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, Are we speaking Andrew File System (IBM/Carnegie-Mellon) or something of Apple's ? > Thoughts? > Well, I spoke to a friend of mine. He is a fellow Mandrake user, and he is also the primary admin of one of the largest clusters in the world (USC). He says the best way to test two different architectures for something like this is by price. Yeah, doing it by price seems somewhat weird. But essentially its too difficult for numerous reasons to compare different OSes on different targets. So if you have 2 grand, which combination will give you the biggest bang for your buck ? He also says that while pricing might be the fairest approach, it is also skewed because vendors like Apple sell at a much higher profit-margrin, and can greatly reduce their prices depending on who the purchaser is. (All major vendors do this sorta thing, IBM, HP, SGI, etc etc etc) *shrug* All questions and comments can be passed along to him. Sunny Dubey From bsd Wed May 19 21:01:52 2004 From: bsd (Kevin Reiter) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:01:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Welcome to the O'Reilly User Group Program References: Message-ID: <001201c43e06$098f7920$0800a8c0@hephaestus> > > Feel free to list your group on our User Group Wiki: > > http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi Done. From george Wed May 19 21:04:29 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:04:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Welcome to the O'Reilly User Group Program In-Reply-To: <001201c43e06$098f7920$0800a8c0@hephaestus> References: <001201c43e06$098f7920$0800a8c0@hephaestus> Message-ID: On May 19, 2004, at 9:01 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote: >>> Feel free to list your group on our User Group Wiki: >>> http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi > > Done. > > ? I already added NYCBUG . . . g From george Wed May 19 21:12:46 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:12:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] is the vi crew in the house? Message-ID: http://www.homebrew.net/visign/ From pete Wed May 19 22:20:32 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:20:32 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] is the vi crew in the house? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AC15F0.2070803@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > http://www.homebrew.net/visign/ > lol that's great...how many hands does it take to make the emacs sign? -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From ahpook Wed May 19 22:26:45 2004 From: ahpook (Ah Pook) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:26:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] is the vi crew in the house? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200405192226.45982.ahpook@optonline.net> G.Rosamond wrote: > http://www.homebrew.net/visign/ Yikes. That's pretty close to the Shocker. Or is that the point? :-P Pete Wright wrote: > lol that's great...how many hands does it take to make the emacs sign? Just one, I think: http://www.kidstogether.org/images/j0097899.gif From ike Wed May 19 22:40:59 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:40:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20BC4BCA-AA07-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Sunny, All, Sunny- be sure to hit the bottom of this post, On May 19, 2004, at 9:01 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: >> One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, > > Are we speaking Andrew File System (IBM/Carnegie-Mellon) or something > of > Apple's ? To clarify for the list: It seems apple has begun calling AFS AFP, (it seems to have been called AFS back when the transition from Appletalk to TCP/IP was happening, but they changed it, likely due to pre-existing Andrew), so this is my mistake. http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,289893,sid9_gci213766,00.html "An Andrew file system (AFS) is a location-independent file system that uses a local cache to reduce the workload and increase the performance of a distributed computing environment. A first request for data to a server from a workstation is satisfied by the server and placed in a local cache. A second request for the same data is satisfied from the local cache." Which is mentioned on the apple developer site at the bottom of this page: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/ KernelProgramming/Filesystem/chapter_12_section_1.html -- To clarify for Sunny, per last week's discussion on common file protocols, we do indeed mean Apple Filing Protocol. http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Networking/Conceptual/AFP/ Preface/chapter_1_section_1.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000941 Unless you want to head up the Andrew File System end of things, (on various BSD's), I'm thinking I'm personally not too interested in working with it at the moment- though it does look quite interesting. > >> Thoughts? >> > > Well, I spoke to a friend of mine. He is a fellow Mandrake user, and > he is > also the primary admin of one of the largest clusters in the world > (USC). > He says the best way to test two different architectures for something > like > this is by price. > > Yeah, doing it by price seems somewhat weird. But essentially its too > difficult for numerous reasons to compare different OSes on different > targets. So if you have 2 grand, which combination will give you the > biggest bang for your buck ? Understandable- but let me explain some of the objectives here- Raw performance is something which is definitely hard to quantify across architectures, and IMHO, is a loosing battle due to the insane number of variables involved- (chip architecture optomization, network interfaces, switches, routing, cable length, power fluctuations, operating temperature, other network traffic, etc...). Various protocols may 'perform' radically differently by shuffling conditions. So, here's the deal- this test is going to have to be more about operational comparison; qualities which are hard and unnecessary to quantify, with no aim of deciding on a 'winner'. Some protocols will have cool strengths and I think we can all learn something by setting up a bunch of them side by side. Some thoughts here are: - Sanity of setup and administration across various architectures - Network Verbosity vs. ease of use - Implimentation Sanity for different architectures, (i.e. perhaps, for example, the native SMB implementation on a given platform sucks, while it's awesome on a different platform) - General End User Experience (i.e. start a server runing one of the services, and test several laptops using the service with different OS's) - General NAS Use Experience I think from this kind of testing, we can come up with a boatload of really useful information- but I believe it would be a real waste of time to run this benchmark style, even as the same hardware can perform very differently with different *nixes. > > He also says that while pricing might be the fairest approach, Dig- I'll check the couch for some testing budget ;) -- Invite: Sunny- since your a Mandrake user, and a very knowledgeable Linux user and developer, would you be interested in participating and following our testing with a Linux or a few relevant Linuxes of your choosing? It is outside of our scope to be able to include a Linux as anything more than perhaps a client in our test network, but it would be a fantastic learning experience for all of us if you could participate and bring a Linux point of view to our testing. (unless you feel that the administrative and etc... type comparisons would be fairly similar across platforms, since we're all *nix, with X11 all around...) I'm looking to emphasize any difference in process and use which we can all learn from- Rocket- .ike From ike Wed May 19 22:47:23 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:47:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi George, All, On May 19, 2004, at 6:10 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >>> I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and >>> OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around >>> networking protocols. >> >> Actually, agreed for the moment... Seems like pf, with the new >> pfsync and carp mania is taking off in some new directions, so this >> could be more appropriate in a few months IMHO... once folks have >> more familiarity with it all- > > But the problem, again, is that it's not about CARP, etc, and the > other funky OBSD pf features. > >> >>> >>> One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, >>> we're comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare >>> architectures. >> >> I'm in- and have enough experience to make the architectural >> differences relatively painless (i.e. I've got our back on mac). >> > > But what are we comparing then? Well, as I expressed to Sunny just 1 min ago, I believe that a raw performance test is as foolhearty as comparing X86 to PPC to Sparc to Power4 architectures- there is really no clear 'winner', only strengths and weaknesses... > >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Who is interested in taking a lead on this? >> >> I don't know about lead, but count me in. If it's a lead that's >> necessary, I'll do it, but not until after next NYCBUG meeting can I >> commit the time. > > I take that as volunteering. . . [...snip...] > We need to create a test environment, so we have to have each variable > controlled. Not to sound like I just took 6th grade science. . . Ahh- seeing as you have a good idea of the network enviornment, I'd say I can't go this one alone, but will need some backing on how the hardware/network/softwares are setup and controlled. So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this stuff... Rocket- .ike From ike Wed May 19 22:51:52 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:51:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment In-Reply-To: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> References: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: current updated list as of: Wed May 19 22:50:31 EDT 2004 -- File Protocol Possibility List: Open Standards: NFS NFSv4(seems pretty scarry from what i heard at the BSDCAN BOF ) WebDAV ? AFS (Andrew File System, Quasi Proprietary: SMB (Samba, Windows) AFP (Apple File Protocol, over TCP/IP, not to be confused with AFS, ) AFP over AppleTalk (can happen on *nix and apple rigs) -- From george Wed May 19 22:54:33 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:54:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 19, 2004, at 10:47 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: >> But what are we comparing then? > > Well, as I expressed to Sunny just 1 min ago, I believe that a raw > performance test is as foolhearty as comparing X86 to PPC to Sparc to > Power4 architectures- there is really no clear 'winner', only > strengths and weaknesses... > Yeah, but mine was first. . . And as I said, we have to keep some controls. . .one platform i386 preferably. We should do something like one OS (ie, a BSD) and all the relevant network protocols. And then there's the question of tweaking OS's, which is frequently an issue in every test, particularly with the BSDs and Linux. . . >> >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >>>> Who is interested in taking a lead on this? >>> >>> I don't know about lead, but count me in. If it's a lead that's >>> necessary, I'll do it, but not until after next NYCBUG meeting can I >>> commit the time. >> >> I take that as volunteering. . . > [...snip...] >> We need to create a test environment, so we have to have each >> variable controlled. Not to sound like I just took 6th grade >> science. . . > > Ahh- seeing as you have a good idea of the network enviornment, I'd > say I can't go this one alone, but will need some backing on how the > hardware/network/softwares are setup and controlled. > > So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this stuff... I think the parameters need to be elaborated on the list, and then we can worry about the setups. g From ike Wed May 19 23:02:50 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:02:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 19, 2004, at 10:54 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >> So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this stuff... >> > > I think the parameters need to be elaborated on the list, and then we > can worry about the setups. Agreed- To re-state some of my generalizing in my response to Sunny, this is the kind of thing I'm looking for out of this: - Sanity of setup and administration across various architectures - Network Verbosity vs. ease of use - Implimentation Sanity for different architectures, (i.e. perhaps, for example, the native SMB implementation on a given platform sucks, while it's awesome on a different platform) - General End User Experience (i.e. start a server runing one of the services, and test several laptops using the service with different OS's) - General NAS Use Experiences - Resilience to Network Failure (ohh- nfs can make FUN for client machines on various platforms :) That's my blabbing- somebody want to start another thread with a formal list of tests? Rocket- .ike From pete Thu May 20 00:57:14 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 23:57:14 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Testing Criteria...was:Lab environment In-Reply-To: <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40AC3AAA.5060504@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 19, 2004, at 10:54 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >>> So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this stuff... >> >> >> I think the parameters need to be elaborated on the list, and then we >> can worry about the setups. > > > Agreed- > > To re-state some of my generalizing in my response to Sunny, this is > the kind of thing I'm looking for out of this: > > - Sanity of setup and administration across various architectures > - Network Verbosity vs. ease of use > - Implimentation Sanity for different architectures, (i.e. perhaps, > for example, the native SMB implementation on a given platform sucks, > while it's awesome on a different platform) > - General End User Experience (i.e. start a server runing one of the > services, and test several laptops using the service with different OS's) > - General NAS Use Experiences > - Resilience to Network Failure (ohh- nfs can make FUN for client > machines on various platforms :) > > yea ike i think we are going down the right track here....this is what i was thinking about, which looks pretty much in line which were you are going. first steps (in my opinion) 1)Which Operating Environments are we going to target: ->BSD(Free, Open, Net??) ->Gnu/Linux (RedHat AS, SuSE Ent., Debian??) ->Darwin x86 ->client side? i guess OS X... 2)What network services are we going to test out: ->NFS ->AFP ->SMB 3)What methology are we going to use to test performace: ->"time" a dd ->benchmark utility v. custum scripts? 4)What is our hypothesis....i think if we can agree on an initial target that might help us get things in focus I'm just throwing stuff out here right now, please don't mistake it for trolling or anything like that ;) -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Thu May 20 02:13:15 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 02:13:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] assisting the BSD projects Message-ID: I've updated the site's page on assisting the BSD projects at www.nycbug.org/projectassist.html. There's also a link from the home page. . . Additionally, there's a link for the newest OBSD song. . .which is dedicated to Cisco and their quest to control networking protocols. Just so everyone knows, I do try to keep the site as current as possible, with most time spent on the future and past events pages. g From mikel.king Thu May 20 08:56:20 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 08:56:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 19, 2004, at 10:54 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >>> So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this stuff... >> >> >> I think the parameters need to be elaborated on the list, and then we >> can worry about the setups. > > > Agreed- > > To re-state some of my generalizing in my response to Sunny, this is > the kind of thing I'm looking for out of this: > > - Sanity of setup and administration across various architectures > - Network Verbosity vs. ease of use > - Implimentation Sanity for different architectures, (i.e. perhaps, > for example, the native SMB implementation on a given platform sucks, > while it's awesome on a different platform) > - General End User Experience (i.e. start a server runing one of the > services, and test several laptops using the service with different OS's) > - General NAS Use Experiences > - Resilience to Network Failure (ohh- nfs can make FUN for client > machines on various platforms :) > > > That's my blabbing- somebody want to start another thread with a > formal list of tests? > > Rocket- > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk Have we found a suitable location yet? I am working on a client of mine who recently upgraded to allow me to take several of their old machines in which case we could possibly use them for this lab experiment. If not however; I happen to know that we are in the process of upgrading our NOC and have several Proliant 800's that might prove useful as well, but this all depends on timing. Of course that leads to the second possibility, our NOC while neither spacious nor...uh what's the correct word I'm looking for here, um well let's just say that here at OCS looks ain't everything. We could maybe shoe horn a group of engineers to deploy these boxes. I have enough rack space and bw to get this going. m! From pete Thu May 20 10:33:19 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:33:19 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40ACC1AF.8030007@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> On May 19, 2004, at 10:54 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>>> So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this stuff... >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I think the parameters need to be elaborated on the list, and then >>> we can worry about the setups. >> >> >> >> Agreed- >> >> To re-state some of my generalizing in my response to Sunny, this is >> the kind of thing I'm looking for out of this: >> >> - Sanity of setup and administration across various architectures >> - Network Verbosity vs. ease of use >> - Implimentation Sanity for different architectures, (i.e. perhaps, >> for example, the native SMB implementation on a given platform sucks, >> while it's awesome on a different platform) >> - General End User Experience (i.e. start a server runing one of the >> services, and test several laptops using the service with different >> OS's) >> - General NAS Use Experiences >> - Resilience to Network Failure (ohh- nfs can make FUN for client >> machines on various platforms :) >> >> >> That's my blabbing- somebody want to start another thread with a >> formal list of tests? >> >> Rocket- >> .ike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > Have we found a suitable location yet? I am working on a client of > mine who recently upgraded to allow me to take several of their old > machines in which case we could possibly use them for this lab > experiment. If not however; I happen to know that we are in the > process of upgrading our NOC and have several Proliant 800's that > might prove useful as well, but this all depends on timing. Of course > that leads to the second possibility, our NOC while neither spacious > nor...uh what's the correct word I'm looking for here, um well let's > just say that here at OCS looks ain't everything. We could maybe shoe > horn a group of engineers to deploy these boxes. I have enough rack > space and bw to get this going. > > m! wow, your NOC sounds pretty promising, i was going to offer my some space at my office, but it's quite crowded/dirty here. i'd definatly be up from hacking on any equipment we do get...installs etc.. -pete > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Thu May 20 09:38:16 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:38:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment In-Reply-To: References: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 19, 2004, at 10:51 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > current updated list as of: > Wed May 19 22:50:31 EDT 2004 > > -- > File Protocol Possibility List: > > Open Standards: > NFS > NFSv4(seems pretty scarry from what i heard at the BSDCAN BOF > ) > WebDAV > ? AFS (Andrew File System, > > Quasi Proprietary: > SMB (Samba, Windows) > AFP (Apple File Protocol, over TCP/IP, > not to be confused with AFS, ) > AFP over AppleTalk (can happen on *nix and apple rigs) AFP is not really quasi proprietary.. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040520/b18331ab/attachment.bin From george Thu May 20 10:01:05 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:01:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [nylug-talk] dumpster dive report: monitors, printers and a mini-fridge Message-ID: <22BAA93F-AA66-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> from the NYLUG talk list. . . Begin forwarded message: > From: Heow Eide-Goodman > Date: May 20, 2004 9:56:31 AM EDT > To: NYLUG discussion list > Subject: [nylug-talk] dumpster dive report: monitors, printers and a > mini-fridge > Reply-To: NYLUG discussion list > > Monitors (~17"), laser printers and a [presumably] working mini-frigde > on the corner of Pearl and John St., in Manhattan. > > Same place I picked up a copule of nice little Sparc-5s. > > - Heow > > _______________________________________________ > The nylug-talk mailing list is at nylug-talk at nylug.org > To subscribe or unsubscribe: > http://www.nylug.org/mailman/listinfo/nylug-talk > From mikel.king Thu May 20 10:10:30 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:10:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40ACC1AF.8030007@nomadlogic.org> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> <40ACC1AF.8030007@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40ACBC56.1040902@ocsny.com> Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > >> Isaac Levy wrote: >> >>> On May 19, 2004, at 10:54 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >>> >>>>> So I'll keep volunteered if some folks get my back on this >>>>> stuff... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think the parameters need to be elaborated on the list, and then >>>> we can worry about the setups. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Agreed- >>> >>> To re-state some of my generalizing in my response to Sunny, this is >>> the kind of thing I'm looking for out of this: >>> >>> - Sanity of setup and administration across various architectures >>> - Network Verbosity vs. ease of use >>> - Implimentation Sanity for different architectures, (i.e. perhaps, >>> for example, the native SMB implementation on a given platform >>> sucks, while it's awesome on a different platform) >>> - General End User Experience (i.e. start a server runing one of the >>> services, and test several laptops using the service with different >>> OS's) >>> - General NAS Use Experiences >>> - Resilience to Network Failure (ohh- nfs can make FUN for client >>> machines on various platforms :) >>> >>> >>> That's my blabbing- somebody want to start another thread with a >>> formal list of tests? >>> >>> Rocket- >>> .ike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk mailing list >>> talk at lists.nycbug.org >>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> >> >> Have we found a suitable location yet? I am working on a client of >> mine who recently upgraded to allow me to take several of their old >> machines in which case we could possibly use them for this lab >> experiment. If not however; I happen to know that we are in the >> process of upgrading our NOC and have several Proliant 800's that >> might prove useful as well, but this all depends on timing. Of >> course that leads to the second possibility, our NOC while neither >> spacious nor...uh what's the correct word I'm looking for here, um >> well let's just say that here at OCS looks ain't everything. We could >> maybe shoe horn a group of engineers to deploy these boxes. I have >> enough rack space and bw to get this going. >> >> m! > > > wow, your NOC sounds pretty promising, i was going to offer my some > space at my office, but it's quite crowded/dirty here. i'd definatly > be up from hacking on any equipment we do get...installs etc.. > > -pete > > >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > As I said it ain't pretty...in fact rustic comes to mind. But I would ike to have 3 or 4 identical machines to build the test bed on, and a MAC of course. Win2k3? Linux (flavor of the day) FreeBSD 5.x MAC OS 10.3 Netware? I might be able to aquire a NFR copy for testing... Of course we would need a few volunteers to come int one evening and fire these things off. Obviously this all depends on if you want to ry it here.... cheers, m! From george Thu May 20 10:16:12 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:16:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] MS moves on. . . Message-ID: <3F387B7E-AA68-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> MS has been talking this for a while now. . .but here's some documentation. . .picked these up off an Undeadly.org reply. . . http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windowsserversystem/exchange/product- information/features-at-a-glance/security.mspx And here's another . . . http://www.alchemistowl.org/arrigo/images/RSA2003-Microsoft-Arrigo- small.jpg IMO, I do think MS has made some progress, relative to where they were in the past, but they have a long way to go. An install of Server 2k3 is a bit leap from NT 4.0, there's no question. They've still got a long way to go, as I'm getting the impression there's not much more to the "Secure by Default" advertising campaign than an advertising campaign. 2K3 Server, for example, does give the admin a simple gui to determine the role of the server, ie, file, print, dns, etc. And Internet Explorer is filled with warnings and so on when you attempt to browse in the default setup. It's very likely this is all just window dressing. However, one thing Theo mentioned in his Exploit Mitigation Techniques talk was about OBSD's use of canaries to avoid buffer overflows. Apparently, MS is doing the same, although their placement of canaries does nothing. It would be good if someone could elaborate on the role of canaries. . . Interestingly enough, it was the only anti-MS comment I heard the entire weekend at BSDCan. . . g From pete Thu May 20 11:18:05 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:18:05 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40ACBC56.1040902@ocsny.com> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> <40ACC1AF.8030007@nomadlogic.org> <40ACBC56.1040902@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40ACCC2D.6070603@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: >> >> >> > As I said it ain't pretty...in fact rustic comes to mind. But I would > ike to have 3 or 4 identical machines to build the test bed on, and a > MAC of course. > > Win2k3? > Linux (flavor of the day) > FreeBSD 5.x > MAC OS 10.3 > Netware? I might be able to aquire a NFR copy for testing... frankly we could even have one server system with several HD's w/ different OS's on each HD. here, i have a good amount of pretty recent Mac workstations to run as clients, and gig-e. but as i said space is pretty limited in my machine room for now (stupid SGI Onyx1's ;) -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Thu May 20 11:25:23 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:25:23 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] MS moves on. . . In-Reply-To: <3F387B7E-AA68-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <3F387B7E-AA68-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40ACCDE3.4030009@nomadlogic.org> G.Rosamond wrote: > > However, one thing Theo mentioned in his Exploit Mitigation > Techniques talk was about OBSD's use of canaries to avoid buffer > overflows. Apparently, MS is doing the same, although their > placement of canaries does nothing. It would be good if someone > could elaborate on the role of canaries. . . > from what i understood was that MS inserts the canaries at compile time, not run time. so the canarie is in the same location on each build of windows. still confused as to what a canarie is tho... > Interestingly enough, it was the only anti-MS comment I heard the > entire weekend at BSDCan. . . > yea, i actually heard alot of people comparing features agains windows, not linux/solaris as i expected. actaully the FUD/flamming was quite low which was really nice! -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From dan Thu May 20 10:31:04 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 10:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] MS moves on. . . In-Reply-To: <40ACCDE3.4030009@nomadlogic.org> References: <3F387B7E-AA68-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40ACCDE3.4030009@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040520102831.F64060@xeon.unixathome.org> On Thu, 20 May 2004, Pete Wright wrote: > G.Rosamond wrote: > > > > > However, one thing Theo mentioned in his Exploit Mitigation > > Techniques talk was about OBSD's use of canaries to avoid buffer > > overflows. Apparently, MS is doing the same, although their > > placement of canaries does nothing. It would be good if someone > > could elaborate on the role of canaries. . . > > > from what i understood was that MS inserts the canaries at compile time, > not run time. so the canarie is in the same location on each build of > windows. still confused as to what a canarie is tho... It's not that it's in the same location, it's always the same value. A canary refers to the practice of carrying them into mines. If the canary dies, the air is bad, get out. This canary is a random value. If it changes, something has gone wrong. Get out. In this case, the value is created at compile time. So it'll be the same value every time it runs. Which means it isn't random. > > Interestingly enough, it was the only anti-MS comment I heard the > > entire weekend at BSDCan. . . > > > yea, i actually heard alot of people comparing features agains windows, > not linux/solaris as i expected. actaully the FUD/flamming was quite > low which was really nice! FUD/flaming is not part of productive activity. So it really shouldn't be there. :) -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From bob Thu May 20 11:40:33 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:40:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] MS moves on. . . In-Reply-To: <20040520102831.F64060@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <3F387B7E-AA68-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40ACCDE3.4030009@nomadlogic.org> <20040520102831.F64060@xeon.unixathome.org> Message-ID: <08587804-AA74-11D8-A675-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 20, 2004, at 10:31 AM, Dan Langille wrote: > On Thu, 20 May 2004, Pete Wright wrote: > >> G.Rosamond wrote: >> >>> >>> However, one thing Theo mentioned in his Exploit Mitigation >>> Techniques talk was about OBSD's use of canaries to avoid buffer >>> overflows. Apparently, MS is doing the same, although their >>> placement of canaries does nothing. It would be good if someone >>> could elaborate on the role of canaries. . . >>> >> from what i understood was that MS inserts the canaries at compile >> time, >> not run time. so the canarie is in the same location on each build of >> windows. still confused as to what a canarie is tho... > > It's not that it's in the same location, it's always the same value. A > canary refers to the practice of carrying them into mines. If the > canary > dies, the air is bad, get out. > > This canary is a random value. If it changes, something has gone > wrong. > Get out. In this case, the value is created at compile time. So > it'll be > the same value every time it runs. Which means it isn't random. The thing that's interesting about OpenBSD's implementation is that it's used as a security measure. In most other environments, code is generally trusted to work correctly, and these sorts are things are used only in debug builds of applications to help programmers fix their crappy code. The same sort of technique is used to see if you're overflowing the heap too, by marking a couple bytes at the end of a buffer and checking to see if that canary has died when the allocation is freed. A more aggressive technique (called MallocGuard on OS X, not sure what it's called elsewhere) is to do a page allocation for every malloc, and allocate the next page as unwritable, so that you get an exception exactly when the incorrect code is being run. I don't think OpenBSD does either of these by default in production applications, since it has a pretty gnarly performance impact. However, since the heap is going to be primarily W^X where available in OpenBSD, it's not as much of a concern. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040520/1db62cf5/attachment.bin From jesse Thu May 20 14:30:13 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:30:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] is the vi crew in the house? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 19, 2004, at 9:12 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > http://www.homebrew.net/visign/ > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > That's hilarious! From sunny-ml Thu May 20 15:53:04 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 15:53:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <20BC4BCA-AA07-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20BC4BCA-AA07-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 19 May 2004 10:40 pm, ike wrote: > I think from this kind of testing, we can come up with a boatload of > really useful information- but I believe it would be a real waste of > time to run this benchmark style, even as the same hardware can perform > very differently with different *nixes. I think you are attempting to test too much. I wouldn't mind seeing some raw numbers primarily because I haven't seen a good set in a while, and because when i do see them, they usually are crap cuz the tester forgot to do simple things like enlarge the network buffer, etc. We all know OS-X is going to win the GUI battle. And that the three BSDs are going to tie each other for CLI mastery. However raw numbers aren't so bad. First because I haven't seen numbers comparing all 3 major BSDs together for sometime. Secondly because when most people do test, I've always noticed that they manage to leave out stupid simple shit like creating a custom kernel or increasing the network buffer size. Additionally we all know that the BSDs are different. I'd be interested in seeing how that difference plays up in simulated real world usage. ie: If FreeBSD's support for SMP helps it, while Obsd lack of SPM hurts it. etc etc etc ( http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/netperf/ nifty hacks) > Invite: > Sunny- since your a Mandrake user, and a very knowledgeable Linux user > and developer, would you be interested in participating and following > our testing with a Linux or a few relevant Linuxes of your choosing? thats fine. I can use various live CDs and write a script to generate lots of network activity. > It is outside of our scope to be able to include a Linux as anything > more than perhaps a client in our test network, thats fine as well Sunny Dubey From george Thu May 20 16:00:09 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:00:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20BC4BCA-AA07-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 20, 2004, at 3:53 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Wednesday 19 May 2004 10:40 pm, ike wrote: > >> I think from this kind of testing, we can come up with a boatload of >> really useful information- but I believe it would be a real waste of >> time to run this benchmark style, even as the same hardware can >> perform >> very differently with different *nixes. > > I think you are attempting to test too much. Agree. . .If a useful comparison is going to be made, there needs to be ONE variable. If we are testing network protocols, then let's get several boxes with the same BSD on each. We can separate into multiple BSD's, but I think we'd have to make it a separate night.. .rebuild the boxes, do the documented or instructed tweaks. Conclusions would be something like, NFS runs amazingly faster than SMB, etc on NetBSD 1.5.3 with an Apple iBook g4 as client. Very simple, but we can at least draw some useful conclusions. Maybe it's too simple. . .maybe we use three boxes. . .Net, Free, Open, and test multiple protocols on each box. But then the tweaks and configs may change too much that it would distort the conclusions. But we should decide on the client side box. > > I wouldn't mind seeing some raw numbers primarily because I haven't > seen a > good set in a while, and because when i do see them, they usually are > crap > cuz the tester forgot to do simple things like enlarge the network > buffer, > etc. > > We all know OS-X is going to win the GUI battle. And that the three > BSDs > are going to tie each other for CLI mastery. > > However raw numbers aren't so bad. First because I haven't seen > numbers > comparing all 3 major BSDs together for sometime. Secondly because > when > most people do test, I've always noticed that they manage to leave out > stupid simple shit like creating a custom kernel or increasing the > network > buffer size. But that angle has to be dealt with too. . .what tweaking and how much? Every single open source related run in a test lab ends with some party or another complaining (usually legitimately) about custom configs. Maybe the best way to deal with this is to have an email to each project, stating our test parameters, and request their recommended settings, so that no complaining can happen later on. . . > > Additionally we all know that the BSDs are different. I'd be > interested in > seeing how that difference plays up in simulated real world usage. > ie: If > FreeBSD's support for SMP helps it, while Obsd lack of SPM hurts it. > etc > etc etc ( http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/netperf/ nifty hacks) > > >> Invite: >> Sunny- since your a Mandrake user, and a very knowledgeable Linux user >> and developer, would you be interested in participating and following >> our testing with a Linux or a few relevant Linuxes of your choosing? > > thats fine. I can use various live CDs and write a script to generate > lots > of network activity. > >> It is outside of our scope to be able to include a Linux as anything >> more than perhaps a client in our test network, > > thats fine as well > > Sunny Dubey g From jesse Thu May 20 16:00:04 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 16:00:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [nylug-talk] dumpster dive report: monitors, printers and a mini-fridge In-Reply-To: <22BAA93F-AA66-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <22BAA93F-AA66-11D8-B9D4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <48CCEDFA-AA98-11D8-AC6B-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On May 20, 2004, at 10:01 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > from the NYLUG talk list. . . > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Heow Eide-Goodman >> Date: May 20, 2004 9:56:31 AM EDT >> To: NYLUG discussion list >> Subject: [nylug-talk] dumpster dive report: monitors, printers and a >> mini-fridge >> Reply-To: NYLUG discussion list >> >> Monitors (~17"), laser printers and a [presumably] working mini-frigde >> on the corner of Pearl and John St., in Manhattan. >> >> Same place I picked up a copule of nice little Sparc-5s. >> >> - Heow I would NEVER soil my hands! ... Unless there happened to be a really cool 8" vga monitor right next to the bus stop which I could palm. but seriously... the mini-fridge would take some real scrutiny. It would be sweating. I'd offer it a hankie to wipe itself. It wouldn't no how to react. But I... I would walk away From sunny-ml Thu May 20 18:20:08 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:20:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Thursday 20 May 2004 04:00 pm, George wrote: > Conclusions would be something like, NFS runs amazingly faster than > SMB, etc on NetBSD 1.5.3 with an Apple iBook g4 as client. I think the a single BSD server will outlast the ibook, heh > > Very simple, but we can at least draw some useful conclusions. > > Maybe it's too simple. . .maybe we use three boxes. . .Net, Free, Open, > and test multiple protocols on each box. But then the tweaks and > configs may change too much that it would distort the conclusions. But > we should decide on the client side box. s#box#boxes with different implementations and such. The more heterogeneous clients are the more "real world" the simulated load will be. ie: Sambe<->Samba is supposed to be much faster than Samba<->Windows, so clearly there is something more going on. I can write a super generic bourne script for fbsd/nbsd/obsd and linux. Not too sure about os-x and I doubt windows can be scripted the way we want. > But that angle has to be dealt with too. . .what tweaking and how much? > Every single open source related run in a test lab ends with some > party or another complaining (usually legitimately) about custom > configs. > > Maybe the best way to deal with this is to have an email to each > project, stating our test parameters, and request their recommended > settings, so that no complaining can happen later on. . . I think the best way to go about optimizing would be to think like PHB would. IE: use only the optimizations *officially documented* by the vendor. Additionally these optimizations can only help the stability pool and must never decrease it. This way if something were to break, we could go back to the official documention of whatever software and find easily whatever it was that caused our issues. I don't think optimizations are not cheating in anyway because in any real world usage you wanna be able to get the most out of your money. Additionally quite often various defaults are left to safer-than-safe levels because the software installed has be generic enough to be able to be run on millions of random configurations. Sunny Dubey PS: can this list be setup to default on reply to list. This way we can all just hit reply and keep chatting. I find CC'ing the person and the list to be annoying. From joshmccormack Thu May 20 20:02:51 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:02:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40AD472B.8060207@travelersdiary.com> Sunny Dubey wrote: > Well, I spoke to a friend of mine. He is a fellow Mandrake user, and he is > also the primary admin of one of the largest clusters in the world (USC). > He says the best way to test two different architectures for something like > this is by price. Would time also figure into this (time is money sort of thing...)? Time to setup, admin, etc. Maybe would be a good way of comparing "free" software that runs on the same hardware, in addition to performance. Josh From joshmccormack Thu May 20 20:10:03 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 20:10:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40AD48DB.4040103@travelersdiary.com> G.Rosamond wrote: > Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to lend > us hardware for any test scenario. > > I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and > OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around > networking protocols. > > One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, we're > comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare architectures. > > Thoughts? > > Who is interested in taking a lead on this? > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > I'd be interested in seeing ease of use, performance and usability and interoperability of various FOSS VPN solutions. Would that interest anyone else? Josh From bob Thu May 20 21:03:22 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:03:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40AD48DB.4040103@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AD48DB.4040103@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: On May 20, 2004, at 8:10 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > > > G.Rosamond wrote: > >> Spoke to a vendor (GCS, who's rep is cc'd) and they are willing to >> lend us hardware for any test scenario. >> I put out the idea of comparing FBSD with ipfw, NetBSD with ipf, and >> OpenBSD with pf, but the dominant interest seemed to be around >> networking protocols. >> One problem is that if we do want to include AFS, AppleTalk, etc, >> we're comparing protocols on inherently difficult to compare >> architectures. >> Thoughts? >> Who is interested in taking a lead on this? > > I'd be interested in seeing ease of use, performance and usability and > interoperability of various FOSS VPN solutions. > > Would that interest anyone else? Oh god yes. What I would want to see more than anything else is a tutorial that details a telecommuting style configuration where isakmpd (openbsd server), kame (os x client), openswan (linux client), and microsoft's ipsec all play nicely together. I did some research and experimentation with the subject a few years ago, but I didn't have the time to figure out how to make it work. Hopefully the situation has improved since, but I still haven't come across any interoperability documentation. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040520/21016c07/attachment.bin From pete Thu May 20 21:30:27 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:30:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> Sunny Dubey wrote: > >with different implementations and such. The more heterogeneous clients are >the more "real world" the simulated load will be. ie: Sambe<->Samba is >supposed to be much faster than Samba<->Windows, so clearly there is >something more going on. > > > i agree. altho i've seen benchmarks, and even personally, samba boxes beat out win 2k, in connection response time and throughput. this may not be true with 2k3 servers and xp tho. >I don't think optimizations are not cheating in anyway because in any real >world usage you wanna be able to get the most out of your money. > yea exactly, man tuning for FreeBSD for example. > > >PS: can this list be setup to default on reply to list. This way we can >all just hit reply and keep chatting. I find CC'ing the person and the >list to be annoying. > > there was a thread regarding this behaviour back in jan or feb. it's not in my archives tho, maybe someone else remembers... -p From bob Thu May 20 21:40:56 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:40:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> References: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 20, 2004, at 9:30 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > Sunny Dubey wrote: >> >> PS: can this list be setup to default on reply to list. This way we >> can all just hit reply and keep chatting. I find CC'ing the person >> and the list to be annoying. >> > there was a thread regarding this behaviour back in jan or feb. it's > not in my archives tho, maybe someone else remembers... Uh, why? In most cases, with most email (list or otherwise), you want to use reply to all. Train yourself to use reply to all (cmd-shift-r in Apple Mail), or rebind it to the default action/toolbar/whatever and you won't screw up anymore. Unless, of course, you only intend to address just the sender; but that's the exception not the rule. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040520/212d332a/attachment.bin From sunny-ml Thu May 20 22:11:03 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:11:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Thursday 20 May 2004 09:40 pm, you wrote: > Uh, why? In most cases, with most email (list or otherwise), you want > to use reply to all. No, you don't For a few reasons. Replying to call without the email defaulting back to the mailing list means that the person is in the TO, and the mailing is in the CC. What this does is cause Mailman to detect this event, and simply *not* send the original the poster. (which makes lots of great sense because it prevents the original poster from getting the same mail twice.) However, because of the fact that the original poster is getting the email from a responder and *not* the mailing list means that the email will lack the list-id header. And filtering mail into folders by list-id is a much better idea than filter by subject (matching [nycbug-talk]). Therefore it totally screws up filtering for someone of us. And I really dislike filtering by subject because sometimes people do reply to me privately offlist, but their mail gets stuck into the UNIX/nycbug folder just because it still has the [nycbug] in the subject. Sunny Dubey From sunny-ml Thu May 20 22:13:31 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:13:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <200405202213.31476.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Thursday 20 May 2004 10:11 pm, Sunny Dubey wrote: err a few mistakes, my apologizes > Replying to call without the email defaulting back to the mailing list > means that the person is in the TO, and the mailing is in the CC. > > What this does is cause Mailman to detect this event, and simply *not* > send the original the poster. (which makes lots of great sense because > it prevents the original poster from getting the same mail twice.) What this does is cause Mailman to detect this event, and simply *not* send the mailing list reply the original the poster. > > However, because of the fact that the original poster is getting the > email from a responder and *not* the mailing list means that the email > will lack the list-id header. And filtering mail into folders by list-id > is a much better idea than filter by subject (matching [nycbug-talk]). > > Therefore it totally screws up filtering for someone of us. some of us, doh Sorry sorry Sunny Dubey From bob Thu May 20 22:18:46 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:18:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405202213.31476.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <200405202213.31476.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <30C1589C-AACD-11D8-8D13-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 20, 2004, at 10:13 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 20 May 2004 10:11 pm, Sunny Dubey wrote: > > err a few mistakes, my apologizes > >> Replying to call without the email defaulting back to the mailing list >> means that the person is in the TO, and the mailing is in the CC. >> >> What this does is cause Mailman to detect this event, and simply *not* >> send the original the poster. (which makes lots of great sense >> because >> it prevents the original poster from getting the same mail twice.) > > What this does is cause Mailman to detect this event, and simply *not* > send > the mailing list reply the original the poster. > >> >> However, because of the fact that the original poster is getting the >> email from a responder and *not* the mailing list means that the email >> will lack the list-id header. And filtering mail into folders by >> list-id >> is a much better idea than filter by subject (matching [nycbug-talk]). >> >> Therefore it totally screws up filtering for someone of us. > > some of us, doh Why not filter on "any recipient" against the list address(es).. that's what I do, it works just fine. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040520/527db59e/attachment.bin From mlists Thu May 20 22:55:08 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:55:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20040521025508.GT15056@bizintegrators.com> On Thu, May 20, 2004 at 10:11:03PM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Thursday 20 May 2004 09:40 pm, you wrote: > > > Uh, why? In most cases, with most email (list or otherwise), you want > > to use reply to all. > > No, you don't > [..] Agree, voting for reply-to defaulting to list. There is no need to receive two e-mail replies to one post. We are all subscribed to this list, replying to the list is all that is needed for all of us to get every mail. -bruno From george Thu May 20 22:58:13 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:58:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <20040521025508.GT15056@bizintegrators.com> References: <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521025508.GT15056@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: On May 20, 2004, at 10:55 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: > On Thu, May 20, 2004 at 10:11:03PM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote: >> On Thursday 20 May 2004 09:40 pm, you wrote: >> >>> Uh, why? In most cases, with most email (list or otherwise), you >>> want >>> to use reply to all. >> >> No, you don't >> > [..] > > Agree, voting for reply-to defaulting to list. There is no need to > receive two e-mail replies to one post. > We are all subscribed to this list, replying to the list is all that > is needed for all of us to get every mail. > > -bruno > That's fine Bruno. But you could just turn off me-too in your settings on the multiple emails. Let's see what other opinions are on this, then I'll make the appropriate change, if necessary. g From jschauma Thu May 20 23:05:26 2004 From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:05:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> Sunny Dubey wrote: > PS: can this list be setup to default on reply to list. This way we can > all just hit reply and keep chatting. I find CC'ing the person and the > list to be annoying. Use 'list-reply' (or whatever your MUA calls it). Google for ``reply-to munging''. Mailinglists should not change the reply-to header. -Jan -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040520/7395086e/attachment.bin From mikel.king Thu May 20 23:12:33 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:12:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40AD73A1.2000108@ocsny.com> Sunny Dubey wrote: >On Thursday 20 May 2004 04:00 pm, George wrote: > > > >>Conclusions would be something like, NFS runs amazingly faster than >>SMB, etc on NetBSD 1.5.3 with an Apple iBook g4 as client. >> >> > >I think the a single BSD server will outlast the ibook, heh > > > >>Very simple, but we can at least draw some useful conclusions. >> >>Maybe it's too simple. . .maybe we use three boxes. . .Net, Free, Open, >>and test multiple protocols on each box. But then the tweaks and >>configs may change too much that it would distort the conclusions. But >>we should decide on the client side box. >> >> > >s#box#boxes > >with different implementations and such. The more heterogeneous clients are >the more "real world" the simulated load will be. ie: Sambe<->Samba is >supposed to be much faster than Samba<->Windows, so clearly there is >something more going on. > >I can write a super generic bourne script for fbsd/nbsd/obsd and linux. Not >too sure about os-x and I doubt windows can be scripted the way we want. > > > > >>But that angle has to be dealt with too. . .what tweaking and how much? >> Every single open source related run in a test lab ends with some >>party or another complaining (usually legitimately) about custom >>configs. >> >>Maybe the best way to deal with this is to have an email to each >>project, stating our test parameters, and request their recommended >>settings, so that no complaining can happen later on. . . >> >> > >I think the best way to go about optimizing would be to think like PHB >would. IE: use only the optimizations *officially documented* by the >vendor. Additionally these optimizations can only help the stability pool >and must never decrease it. This way if something were to break, we could >go back to the official documention of whatever software and find easily >whatever it was that caused our issues. > >I don't think optimizations are not cheating in anyway because in any real >world usage you wanna be able to get the most out of your money. >Additionally quite often various defaults are left to safer-than-safe >levels because the software installed has be generic enough to be able to >be run on millions of random configurations. > >Sunny Dubey > >PS: can this list be setup to default on reply to list. This way we can >all just hit reply and keep chatting. I find CC'ing the person and the >list to be annoying. >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > Agreed however since most admins have limitted time, and time is money, unless things hit critical mass tweaking the OS for a few more horse power maybe be low on the priority list. Therefore, it would definately be advantageous to have the vanilla out of the box performance results, and a comparison of the optimization tweaked results. This way a busy admin could justify to his/her boss the cost/benefit of them. -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From mikel.king Thu May 20 23:17:02 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:17:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment In-Reply-To: References: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40AD74AE.5000508@ocsny.com> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 19, 2004, at 10:51 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> current updated list as of: >> Wed May 19 22:50:31 EDT 2004 >> >> -- >> File Protocol Possibility List: >> >> Open Standards: >> NFS >> NFSv4(seems pretty scarry from what i heard at the BSDCAN BOF >> ) >> WebDAV >> ? AFS (Andrew File System, >> >> Quasi Proprietary: >> SMB (Samba, Windows) >> AFP (Apple File Protocol, over TCP/IP, >> not to be confused with AFS, ) >> AFP over AppleTalk (can happen on *nix and apple rigs) > > > AFP is not really quasi proprietary.. > > -bob > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > what about sfs? -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From mikel.king Thu May 20 23:09:07 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:09:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40ACCC2D.6070603@nomadlogic.org> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> <40ACC1AF.8030007@nomadlogic.org> <40ACBC56.1040902@ocsny.com> <40ACCC2D.6070603@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40AD72D3.8040105@ocsny.com> Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >> As I said it ain't pretty...in fact rustic comes to mind. But I >> would ike to have 3 or 4 identical machines to build the test bed on, >> and a MAC of course. >> >> Win2k3? >> Linux (flavor of the day) >> FreeBSD 5.x >> MAC OS 10.3 >> Netware? I might be able to aquire a NFR copy for testing... > > > frankly we could even have one server system with several HD's w/ > different OS's on each HD. here, i have a good amount of pretty > recent Mac workstations to run as clients, and gig-e. but as i said > space is pretty limited in my machine room for now (stupid SGI Onyx1's ;) > > -p > > > > Well I had thought of that as well, and thought it might be nice to do side by side comparisons and keep the hardware as similar as possible. I will attempt aquiring the workstations next week when I visit said client. I think they would make a good test bed because they are absolutely identical down to the screws...;-) Well ok some harddisks have changed over the years but vid, mlb, nic ram cpu their identical. they are pII450's as I recall. Would MAC G3 be close to that in performance, because I have one of those as well. Sorry only running @ 100bt. But I think that would be representative of most sites, well the average ones anyway. -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From kit Thu May 20 23:35:14 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:35:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] is the vi crew in the house? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:12 PM -0400 5/19/04, G.Rosamond wrote: >http://www.homebrew.net/visign/ (Disclaimer: the message below is intended to be humorous. I don't actually care what editor you use & I'm sure as hell not going to shoot anybody.) Yo! Pico crew in tha house! OG since '93, throwin' down tha P-sign! Y'all best setenv EDITOR /usr/local/bin/pico or I'm'a start poppin' caps! http://www.kithalsted.com/images/P4Pico.jpg (Cue Ice-T's "Colors") -Kit From george Thu May 20 23:58:49 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 23:58:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdusergroups.org Message-ID: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Just an FYI to all. . . One of the nicest designed yet most dated listings of BSD User Groups is hosted by BC Hosting. . .located at BSDUserGroups.org. I have spoken to one of the sysadmins over there, and Daemon News is going to sponsor the site, and keep it up to date. It's a great resource, and I encourage all to take a look at the current format. g From sunny-ml Fri May 21 07:18:15 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 07:18:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> References: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <200405210718.15875.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Thursday 20 May 2004 11:05 pm, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Sunny Dubey wrote: > > PS: can this list be setup to default on reply to list. This way we > > can all just hit reply and keep chatting. I find CC'ing the person and > > the list to be annoying. > > Use 'list-reply' (or whatever your MUA calls it). > > Google for ``reply-to munging''. Interesting, I had never heard of this. Upon searching for this topic and reading them, I've come to realize that the first few hits I've seen are pretty much opinionated true unix-bigot style, and the idea that information is "lost" because of this is total BS. (This is just like the infamous "Yenc usenet posts considered harmful" website.) I think the purpose of such a public mailing list is to develop discussion and a community. Therefore the more lively traffic this list gets only helps attain that goal. I haven't been on nycbug-talk for too long, and yet I've already had posts in which the person simply hit reply to me, but not to the list. And this is no good, because what the person replied to me with might have been great interest or the spark plug for another interesting thread. just my two cents. I'm trying to figure out where I learned of filtering by list-id instead of Bob Ippolito's "any recipient" filter. Sunny Dubey From dan Fri May 21 07:26:29 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 07:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: <40AD5BB3.4000907@nomadlogic.org> <200405202211.03423.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521025508.GT15056@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <20040521072504.O30644@xeon.unixathome.org> On Thu, 20 May 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 20, 2004, at 10:55 PM, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: > > > On Thu, May 20, 2004 at 10:11:03PM -0400, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> On Thursday 20 May 2004 09:40 pm, you wrote: > >> > >>> Uh, why? In most cases, with most email (list or otherwise), you > >>> want > >>> to use reply to all. > >> > >> No, you don't > >> > > [..] > > > > Agree, voting for reply-to defaulting to list. There is no need to > > receive two e-mail replies to one post. > > We are all subscribed to this list, replying to the list is all that > > is needed for all of us to get every mail. > > > > -bruno > > > > That's fine Bruno. But you could just turn off me-too in your settings > on the multiple emails. > > Let's see what other opinions are on this, then I'll make the > appropriate change, if necessary. First, we should have a different thread for this. Second, I think we should leave things as they are. Munging reply-to is not a good thing. All the BSD lists I am on act as this list does. They work well. Why should we think that we can do better than them? -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From dan Fri May 21 07:30:45 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 07:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] bsdusergroups.org In-Reply-To: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040521072943.X30644@xeon.unixathome.org> On Thu, 20 May 2004, G.Rosamond wrote: > Just an FYI to all. . . > > One of the nicest designed yet most dated listings of BSD User Groups > is hosted by BC Hosting. . .located at BSDUserGroups.org. > > I have spoken to one of the sysadmins over there, and Daemon News is > going to sponsor the site, and keep it up to date. > > It's a great resource, and I encourage all to take a look at the > current format. FWIW, these are the same folks who provide me with a machine and bandwith for FreeBSDDiary.org, FreshPorts.org, BSDCan.org, FreshSource.org, and a few other website I run which you've never heard of. -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From pete Fri May 21 11:10:13 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:10:13 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] lists...was Lab environment In-Reply-To: <200405210718.15875.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> <200405210718.15875.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <40AE1BD5.8050401@nomadlogic.org> Sunny Dubey wrote: > >I think the purpose of such a public mailing list is to develop discussion >and a community. Therefore the more lively traffic this list gets only >helps attain that goal. I haven't been on nycbug-talk for too long, and >yet I've already had posts in which the person simply hit reply to me, but >not to the list. And this is no good, because what the person replied to >me with might have been great interest or the spark plug for another >interesting thread. > > there was a pretty good thread regarding netiquite early on. for me it's all 6 of one, half a dozen of the other(technically speaking). i would search the archives, around the feb time frame, to see what was discussed. i tend to agree with Dan tho, all of my BSD lists and most of my other lists adhere to this behaviour. maybe it's just another emacs v. vi flame fest. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Fri May 21 10:26:34 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:26:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] lists...was Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40AE1BD5.8050401@nomadlogic.org> References: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> <200405210718.15875.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40AE1BD5.8050401@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On May 21, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> >> I think the purpose of such a public mailing list is to develop >> discussion and a community. Therefore the more lively traffic this >> list gets only helps attain that goal. I haven't been on nycbug-talk >> for too long, and yet I've already had posts in which the person >> simply hit reply to me, but not to the list. And this is no good, >> because what the person replied to me with might have been great >> interest or the spark plug for another interesting thread. > > there was a pretty good thread regarding netiquite early on. for me > it's all 6 of one, half a dozen of the other(technically speaking). i > would search the archives, around the feb time frame, to see what was > discussed. i tend to agree with Dan tho, all of my BSD lists and most > of my other lists adhere to this behaviour. maybe it's just another > emacs v. vi flame fest. I'm probably subscribed to about 40 lists, and I can only think of 2 that do reply-to munging... -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040521/87a5fa21/attachment.bin From pete Fri May 21 11:35:18 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:35:18 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] netiquite...finally OT Message-ID: <40AE21B6.3020502@nomadlogic.org> whew...think i finally got a new thread going on this On May 21, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > Sunny Dubey wrote: > >> >> I think the purpose of such a public mailing list is to develop >> discussion and a community. Therefore the more lively traffic this >> list gets only helps attain that goal. I haven't been on nycbug-talk >> for too long, and yet I've already had posts in which the person >> simply hit reply to me, but not to the list. And this is no good, >> because what the person replied to me with might have been great >> interest or the spark plug for another interesting thread. > > > > there was a pretty good thread regarding netiquite early on. for me > it's all 6 of one, half a dozen of the other(technically speaking). i > would search the archives, around the feb time frame, to see what was > discussed. i tend to agree with Dan tho, all of my BSD lists and most > of my other lists adhere to this behaviour. maybe it's just another > emacs v. vi flame fest. I'm probably subscribed to about 40 lists, and I can only think of 2 that do reply-to munging... -bob again, as i said before "for me it's all 6 of one, half a dozen of another technically wise." http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2004-February/000628.html this is the thread i was refering to. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From jschauma Fri May 21 10:50:03 2004 From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:50:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] lists... In-Reply-To: References: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> <200405210718.15875.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40AE1BD5.8050401@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040521145003.GA7666@netmeister.org> [last post on this topic by me:] Reply-to-munging is not a good idea because it can lead to highly undesriable results: a private email intended for a single recipient accidentally sent to the mailing list, thusly public for all to see and even archived on the web for all eternity (for sufficiently low values of ``eternity''). The other way around, the worst case scenario is that an email that was intended to be public remains private. This can easily be fixed by resending the mail to the list. (The other way around, it's not possible to fix.) Therefore, the list should attempt to ``err'' on the side of caution and privacy and not munge reply-to. QED. :) -Jan -- Probability factor of one to one. We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own lookout. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040521/e65fa9e8/attachment.bin From sunny-ml Fri May 21 10:57:30 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:57:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] netiquite...finally OT In-Reply-To: <40AE21B6.3020502@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AE21B6.3020502@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <200405211057.30215.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Friday 21 May 2004 11:35 am, Pete Wright wrote: And bob wrote somewhere: > I'm probably subscribed to about 40 lists, and I can only think of 2 > that do reply-to munging... Erm, dunno what lists you're on, but the majority of mine do replay-to-list (all sourceforge lists (DRI-devel, etc), kernelnewbies, mandrake-cooker, squid-users, NYLUG, xchat, etc) I can see this is a losing issue for me. So I won't press it Sunny Dubey From dan Fri May 21 11:31:14 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:31:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan - notes from Dan Message-ID: <40ADE882.26379.AF0D67FA@localhost> Folks, I've updated the website to archive BSDCan 2004 and make way for 2005. The papers (those that have been given to me) are also available in the /2004/ directory. The final attendance count was 156 with about 15 noshows (people that registered but didn't attend). Yes, there will be a BSDCan 2005. Yes, it will be in Ottawa. And it will be the same weekend (the one after Mother's Day, second weekend in May, 2005). We have some t-shirts left over if anyone wants to buy one. Oh, and the books we were going to sell turned up on Monday. So I have about 100 pounds of books here to get ride of. See the website for details. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From pete Fri May 21 14:55:21 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:55:21 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] netperf on FreeBSD 5.x Message-ID: <40AE5099.10407@nomadlogic.org> http://kerneltrap.org/node/view/3170?PHPSESSID=7175aae01f9323f6539bb6c61181ce2a http://bulk.fefe.de/scalability/ seems to be pretty relevant for us.... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From dan Fri May 21 16:04:14 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:04:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] stolen laptop Message-ID: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> It's just so sickening. It gets me right in the gut. My laptop was stolen from my car today over lunch. It was an IBM ThinkPad T22 (serial 786NKZP). It wasn't just the hardware. There was a notebook with it too. And two wireless nics (Orinoco Gold and Silver), a PCMCIA modem, plus a Linksys PCM100 10/100 Integrated PC Card. That's what sucks. It's the little pieces. Ugh. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From george Fri May 21 16:06:16 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:06:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] stolen laptop In-Reply-To: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> References: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> Message-ID: <515E4FAE-AB62-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 21, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > It's just so sickening. It gets me right in the gut. > > My laptop was stolen from my car today over lunch. It was an IBM > ThinkPad T22 (serial 786NKZP). > > It wasn't just the hardware. There was a notebook with it too. And > two wireless nics (Orinoco Gold and Silver), a PCMCIA modem, plus a > Linksys PCM100 10/100 Integrated PC Card. That's what sucks. It's the > little pieces. > > Ugh. > Bad. Very bad. Hope you didn't lose too much data. Anything we could do to help? Was it in Ottawa? g From ike Fri May 21 16:09:50 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:09:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] stolen laptop In-Reply-To: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> References: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> Message-ID: Word All, On May 21, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > It's just so sickening. It gets me right in the gut. > > My laptop was stolen from my car today over lunch. It was an IBM > ThinkPad T22 (serial 786NKZP). Ohh dude- some mistaken Karma from somewhere else man- this is awful. /me lowers the (white) flag in my office to half mast today... Rocket- .ike From bschonhorst Fri May 21 16:10:06 2004 From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:10:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] stolen laptop In-Reply-To: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> References: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> Message-ID: On May 21, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > It's just so sickening. It gets me right in the gut. > > My laptop was stolen from my car today over lunch. It was an IBM > ThinkPad T22 (serial 786NKZP). > > It wasn't just the hardware. There was a notebook with it too. And > two wireless nics (Orinoco Gold and Silver), a PCMCIA modem, plus a > Linksys PCM100 10/100 Integrated PC Card. That's what sucks. It's the > little pieces. > > Ugh. Oh man, thats terrible. A friend of mine just had his wallet stolen and that was quite a mess. I can't imagine losing my laptop. Sorry to hear it, -brad -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040521/69af8886/attachment.bin From dan Fri May 21 16:10:52 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:10:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] stolen laptop In-Reply-To: <515E4FAE-AB62-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40AE287E.13795.B0075E59@localhost> Message-ID: <40AE2A0C.7290.B00D71C0@localhost> On 21 May 2004 at 16:06, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 21, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > > > It's just so sickening. It gets me right in the gut. > > > > My laptop was stolen from my car today over lunch. It was an IBM > > ThinkPad T22 (serial 786NKZP). > > > > It wasn't just the hardware. There was a notebook with it too. And > > two wireless nics (Orinoco Gold and Silver), a PCMCIA modem, plus a > > Linksys PCM100 10/100 Integrated PC Card. That's what sucks. It's > > the little pieces. > > > > Ugh. > > > > Bad. Very bad. Hope you didn't lose too much data. Nope, I don't think so. It would have been only notes. I run Bacula remember... ;) Seriously, all my work (websites etc) goes into CVS and that's backed up daily. On my laptop is just small stuff. It's really the spiral notebook that bothers me. That's a bunch of notes from a long period of time. > Anything we could do to help? Was it in Ottawa? Buy me a new laptop? ;) Yep, downtown Ottawa. The World Exchange Plaza parking garage. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From george Fri May 21 16:17:10 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 16:17:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my Daemon News BSDCan writeup. . . Message-ID: Comments appreciated. . .it will be published online this weekend. . . If I missed anything, let me know. . . g NYCBUG to BSDCan

Off We Go

Four of us left Brooklyn at 7:30 am on Thursday morning to avoid the traffic on Canal Street in downtown Manhattan. Well, there's no way to totally avoid it; but there's a better chance of getting through Manhattan at that hour to the Holland Tunnel than 30 minutes later. Remember, we're leaving from a city where you can be stuck in traffic at 2 am on the Brooklyn Bridge.

We know that there will be two additional NYCBUG members in Ottawa who arrive by plane. But since we only started up the group in January, we are all basically strangers to each other, especially in the context of a long drive to the Great White North.

Our trip was hardly uneventful. Some where on Interstate 81 in Pennsylvania, the other NYCBUG attendees, Ike, Michael and Bob had an internal network up and running. Then by the time we hit Syracuse, they were using Michael's GPRS-capable cell phone to surf the web, create SSH sessions and download mail.

They even managed to post to the NYCBUG talk list. The post is here.

It was also interesting to scan the various wireless networks along the way. As we had KisMAC running with an Airport Extreme card on OS X, we were unable to crack any WEP-encrypted networks, but that wasn't necessary in rural western New York state. But oddly enough, the entire city of Syracuse accessible from Interstate 81 had less wireless-coverage than a single block in Manhattan.

Border Crossing

When we arrived at the Ontario, Canada and New York, US border, we thought no sweat. We had no drugs, identifiable weapons and the Canadian government doesn't seem to be controlled by Redmond.

We handed our US passports to the young woman at Canadian customs and explained we were going to Ottawa for a UNIX conference. She took my attempted innocent grin and half-flirtatious eyelash batting and gave me a disproportionate smile in response. I said, "I know, we don't look like geeks."

We drove a few more feet to take tourist pictures of the "Welcome to Ontario" sign, when Bob revealed what he thinks she really thought I meant by "UNIX." "Oh, harmless boys, going off to a eunuch conference. How cute."

This joke continued through the weekend, with everyone quick to get it.

Arrival

Dan Langille told us to arrive at 5:30 pm. We arrived at exactly 5:30, with our throats thirsting for a malty beverage and our legs ready to get some activity, other than the earlier parking lot football game at "Thee Diner"(sic) outside of Syracuse.

We refreshed ourselves and began meeting BSDCan attendees from around the world.

Personally, I had my own mission. For years, I've worked with BSDMall and Daemon News. I needed to hook-up with Chris Coleman. I knew him as a close collaborator in the digital world, but didn't know if he had a hunch back, Coke-bottle thick glasses, or an extra leg in person.

Dan told me he hadn't arrived yet, so I meandered around BSDCan the night of our arrival and the next morning like the little duck searching for his mother: "Are you Chris Coleman?" "Have you seen Chris Coleman?"

The quest was fruitless until lunch time on the first full day of the conference. This tall, lanky, Midwestern-type was attempting to balance a cart of boxes. This must be him. Our introductions were brief, and off to work we went.

Beside the registration table, BSD Mall/Daemon News had the only table at BSDCan. We had a tone of software, shirts and books.

As the technical level of the conference was quite high, it was a pleasure not having to answer questions like "How many distros are there of BSD?" and "Why did BSD branch off from Linux?" That's generally the type of queries we faced for years at LinuxWorld Expo and even MacWorld in New York City.

The sessions NYCBUG attendees went to were amazing. I, for one, attended the sessions by Dan, Ryan McBride, Poul-Henning Kamp on GBDE, Robert Watson and Theo der Raadt. It was great to meet a variety of BSDer's from around Canada, the US and a small but good section of the rest of the world. It's even better when the sessions cause ideas to flow and plans to brew, and to have so many others to discuss it with at the bar afterwards.

The bar. Oh yeah, I mean the bars.

Our NYCBUG meetings are monthly the first Wednesday of the month, usually at 6 pm or so, we are in the habit of the meetings ending in the wee hours of the morning. I know the last "meeting" ended for me at 3:30 am or so, in some bar on Houston Street.

So when you're out with BSD Hackers from all over, who attended the same brilliant meetings with you, what do you think will happen then?

A hot topic among some of us was Dan's Bacula meeting. Great, and there are some interesting implementations to do with a consulting business, regardless of the clients' server and desktop operating systems.

More pressingly, we also proposed to some of our newly acquired Canadian friends a unique idea for spreading their way of life south. We asked a series of questions leading to our main point: "What is your healthcare system like?" "How big is your military?" and finally, "Have you considered invading the US, or at least New York state, to spread this universal healthcare thing?"

We Make Some Friends

Of course some of the NYCBUG attendees made some better "friends" than others. Those pictures will remain within the NYCBUG-BSDCan attendees to protect the innocent, and the guilty.

For me individually, I met a number of people who I enjoyed discussions with. Wayne from London explained the draconian laws in Britain which allow any police officer above the rank of sergeant to ask for your password, electronic keys, etc., for access to the data your serving. Not immediately fulfilling this request means an automatic two years in jail. But how you perform logging isn't detailed, as long as you have consistent logging policies throughout your organization. Well, there's no more resourceful response to this than having your /etc/newsyslog.conf file roll-over your logs every ten minutes.

I also spoke to Dru Lavigne for the first time face-to-face. Dru's contribution to BSD documentation and advocacy, particularly on O'Reilly's OnLamp.com is equalled by few. We've discussed a number of things, most importantly in my humble opinion, is the near release of her BSD Hacks book. There's no question to me that the increase in BSD popularity is significant, and this book could move beyond the expectations of the author, the publisher and distributors.

There are many, many other discussions I could mention, but I would just have to say I enjoyed each one. We were up for around 19 hours a day, talked non-stop, so this article could continue for days.

Of honorable mention is Chris Coleman. Susanna, his wife and Chris trucked out the entire contents of the BSDMall/DN table in their minivan, along with their three young, and remarkably well-behaved children. Chris' contribution to the BSD family doesn't get a fraction of the recognition it deserves. He is tirelessly thinking up new ways of building the BSD family while subsisting on a meager salary. Without Chris taking the two day drive, each way to Ottowa, the conference wouldn't have been quite the same.

And then there's Dan Langille of course. Dan, who crashed at my apartment during LinuxWorld Expo this past January, has contributed enormous amounts to the BSD community for years. How many FreeBSD users didn't dwell on FreeBSDDiary.org in their early days? How many people don't quickly query FreshPorts.org when they are looking for a particular port?

The effort Dan expended to get BSDCan is amazing. He has taken a pretty atomized BSD community in the east wing of Canada and the US and provided it a tremendous outlet for its of energy and focus.

Montreal for Sunday Night

To make the trip more vacation-like, we stopped in Montreal for Sunday evening. The bars, sights and restaurants were great. It was a big step up from Ottawa, which seemed as if it was administered a strong tranquilizer some years back.

But of course, as techs, our main quest in Montreal was for bandwidth. It was Monday now, and the work week had begun. The pictures following this article provide some insight into our fun.

It was amazing how sparse wireless networks were in Montreal. We didn't expect the concentrations of Manhattan, but we did expect to get decent connectivity here and there.

We wandered down the cafe-lined street of Saint Denis, to the old port district of Montreal, through the office buildings of downtown Montreal, up through Chinatown. No strong signals, according to our wireless detection devices. Finally, we found a very strong signal next to a sidestreet bed and breakfast, just north of Chinatown.

Ike and Bob investigated a nearby window to find a DLink router and cable modem sitting there clear in the window. As I took a picture of Bob next to the sign, the proprietor opened the door and asked if we need any assistance. Now in New York City this might have been a not-so-veiled threat, but we just responded with smiles, and "non, merci."

We spent the good part of an hour sitting on the sidewalk next to our brilliant access point, while passer-bys gawked at us.

We got our bandwidth, and some of us even managed to get some work done.

The End

We arrived back in Brooklyn at 11 pm Monday evening. We had spent the last few hours in the car arguing fervently about technology, from broad issues to the details of testing network protocols.

For days after, we are still all exhausted physically, and our brains were clearly on overload for the trip.

We are clear on one thing: even though our NYCBUG talk list was down for most of BSDCan, our excitment will mean that you will have more NYCBUG attendees next year, my dear friend Dan, and that means more people demanding decent pizza, bagels, and a vodka other than Smirnov. But we know they won't be demanding a better conference. From chrisc Fri May 21 21:19:46 2004 From: chrisc (Chris Coleman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:19:46 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] my Daemon News BSDCan writeup. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1D047C60-AB8E-11D8-8AD3-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> On Friday, May 21, 2004, at 03:17 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Comments appreciated. . .it will be published online this weekend. . . > > If I missed anything, let me know. . . I've updated your article in Zdesk, but my attempts at HMTL'izing it sucks. If there are any HTML gurus on this list that would like to fix it for me, I'd appreciate it. You need a Zdesk account to work on it, but I can take care of that. From mspitze1 Sat May 22 00:00:43 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 00:00:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] netiquite...finally OT In-Reply-To: <40AE21B6.3020502@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AE21B6.3020502@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040522000043.428bb92c@bogomips.optonline.net> On Fri, 21 May 2004 10:35:18 -0500 Pete Wright wrote: > whew...think i finally got a new thread going on this > it was *always* OT, On or Off Topic == OT after all. marc From mspitze1 Sat May 22 00:07:03 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 00:07:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] lists...was Lab environment In-Reply-To: References: <200405201820.08339.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20040521030526.GB17074@netmeister.org> <200405210718.15875.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <40AE1BD5.8050401@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040522000703.4128ad50@bogomips.optonline.net> On Fri, 21 May 2004 10:26:34 -0400 Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 21, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > it's all 6 of one, half a dozen of the other(technically speaking). > > i would search the archives, around the feb time frame, to see what > > was discussed. i tend to agree with Dan tho, all of my BSD lists > > and most of my other lists adhere to this behaviour. maybe it's > > just another emacs v. vi flame fest. > > I'm probably subscribed to about 40 lists, and I can only think of 2 > that do reply-to munging... And there is a good reason for that, when you rewrite the Reply-To: header with the list address every bounced message goes to the list and then gets sent to the list, bounces again and goes to the list... That really sucks and on large lists or with poorly designed software you can fill your mailbox or get a big bill from your service provider going way over your bandwidth limit, etc. IT just seems like a good idea. marc From joshmccormack Sat May 22 12:22:45 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 12:22:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X Message-ID: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad 360X? It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using the OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: Loading; ERR R Josh From george Sat May 22 12:28:19 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 12:28:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <092D13C4-AC0D-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad 360X? > It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using the > OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: > > Loading; > ERR R > > note: pbr is partition boot record. From the OpenBSD FAQ: As the PBR is very small, its range of error messages is pretty limited, and somewhat cryptic. Most likely messages are: * ERR R -- BIOS returned an error when trying to read a block from the disk. Usually means exactly what it says: your disk wasn't readable. http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html g From george Sat May 22 12:37:15 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 12:37:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad 360X? > It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using the > OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: > > Loading; > ERR R > > Josh > Let me be more helpful Josh. This happens while it's reading from the floppy? 1. make sure you're using a decent floppy. I had a box of 50 compusa floppies a while back, and none of them were good. 2. do a low level format of the floppy on a UNIX box. This will reveal the errors that won't show up during a Win32 format. g From joshmccormack Sat May 22 16:19:28 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:19:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> G. Rosamond wrote: > > On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > >> Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad 360X? >> It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using the >> OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: >> >> Loading; >> ERR R >> >> Josh >> > > Let me be more helpful Josh. > > This happens while it's reading from the floppy? > > 1. make sure you're using a decent floppy. I had a box of 50 compusa > floppies a while back, and none of them were good. > > 2. do a low level format of the floppy on a UNIX box. This will reveal > the errors that won't show up during a Win32 format. > > g > > I did a format using a Knoppix disk, and it looked like it verified fine and the write was good. Here's a line by line of what I did once I downloaded the laptop floppy disk from OpenBSD's FTP site: fdformat /dev/fd0 cd /ramdisk/home/knoppix dd if=floppyC35.fs of=/dev/fd0 bs=32k But I still got the same error, as it was trying to load the floppy. Josh From mlists Sat May 22 16:41:06 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:41:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <20040522204106.GA30341@bizintegrators.com> On Sat, May 22, 2004 at 04:19:28PM -0400, Josh McCormack wrote: > > > G. Rosamond wrote: > > > >On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > > > >>Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad 360X? > >>It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using the > >>OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: > >> > >>Loading; > >>ERR R > >> > >>Josh > >> > > > >Let me be more helpful Josh. > > > >This happens while it's reading from the floppy? > > > >1. make sure you're using a decent floppy. I had a box of 50 compusa > >floppies a while back, and none of them were good. > > > >2. do a low level format of the floppy on a UNIX box. This will reveal > >the errors that won't show up during a Win32 format. > > > >g > > > > > > > I did a format using a Knoppix disk, and it looked like it verified fine > and the write was good. Here's a line by line of what I did once I > downloaded the laptop floppy disk from OpenBSD's FTP site: > > fdformat /dev/fd0 > cd /ramdisk/home/knoppix > dd if=floppyC35.fs of=/dev/fd0 bs=32k > > But I still got the same error, as it was trying to load the floppy. > Only every 4th floppy I try works with OpenBSD boot floppies, but they all look fine after dd (no [media] errors). I think you should listen to George and try some other floppies. If you have any Microsoft floppies, they are the best. Also most other official or driver floppies from big companies work pretty good. -bruno From george Sat May 22 16:46:56 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:46:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 22, 2004, at 4:19 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > > > G. Rosamond wrote: >> On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: >>> Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad >>> 360X? It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using >>> the OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: >>> >>> Loading; >>> ERR R >>> >>> Josh >>> >> Let me be more helpful Josh. >> This happens while it's reading from the floppy? >> 1. make sure you're using a decent floppy. I had a box of 50 >> compusa floppies a while back, and none of them were good. >> 2. do a low level format of the floppy on a UNIX box. This will >> reveal the errors that won't show up during a Win32 format. >> g > > > I did a format using a Knoppix disk, and it looked like it verified > fine and the write was good. Here's a line by line of what I did once > I downloaded the laptop floppy disk from OpenBSD's FTP site: > > fdformat /dev/fd0 > cd /ramdisk/home/knoppix > dd if=floppyC35.fs of=/dev/fd0 bs=32k > > But I still got the same error, as it was trying to load the floppy. > > Josh > Michael's followup is accurate. But then again, it's just the case for getting a subscription to OBSD. Use the link on our nycbug.org homepage. g From sunny-ml Sat May 22 17:48:41 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:48:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <200405221748.41491.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Saturday 22 May 2004 04:19 pm, Josh McCormack wrote: > fdformat /dev/fd0 > cd /ramdisk/home/knoppix > dd if=floppyC35.fs of=/dev/fd0 bs=32k > you should also do: md5sum floppyC35.fs md5sum /dev/fd0 Sunny Dubey From rwbutcher Sat May 22 19:58:31 2004 From: rwbutcher (Bob Butcher) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] freebsd 5.1 installation Message-ID: <20040522235831.95733.qmail@web60604.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I've been trying to install freebsd 5.1 from the CD. The installation seems to have gone pretty smoothly. My problem is when I log in and launch KDE the screen is too big for the monitor. I'm using an 20" CRT Apple Studio Display. The icons for trash, home, and the mouse pointer are huge and I can't see 80% of the screen. I have a little ability to drag the screen left and right but not very far down towards the bottom. I think the adjustments I need to make are in the Control Center (is that correct?). However when I launch the Control Center I can see only a fraction of the screen and can't get to the bottom of the page where I could accept, or apply changes or even see what changes I should be making. I'd be happy to google for an answer or use the man pages but I'm not sure what exactly I should be asking for. all the best, Bob Butcher __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains ? Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer From joshmccormack Sat May 22 22:53:43 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 22:53:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40B01237.5010109@travelersdiary.com> G. Rosamond wrote: > > On May 22, 2004, at 4:19 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > >> >> >> G. Rosamond wrote: >> >>> On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad >>>> 360X? It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using >>>> the OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: >>>> >>>> Loading; >>>> ERR R >>>> >>>> Josh >>>> >>> Let me be more helpful Josh. >>> This happens while it's reading from the floppy? >>> 1. make sure you're using a decent floppy. I had a box of 50 >>> compusa floppies a while back, and none of them were good. >>> 2. do a low level format of the floppy on a UNIX box. This will >>> reveal the errors that won't show up during a Win32 format. >>> g >> >> >> >> I did a format using a Knoppix disk, and it looked like it verified >> fine and the write was good. Here's a line by line of what I did once >> I downloaded the laptop floppy disk from OpenBSD's FTP site: >> >> fdformat /dev/fd0 >> cd /ramdisk/home/knoppix >> dd if=floppyC35.fs of=/dev/fd0 bs=32k >> >> But I still got the same error, as it was trying to load the floppy. >> >> Josh >> > > Michael's followup is accurate. > > But then again, it's just the case for getting a subscription to OBSD. > > Use the link on our nycbug.org homepage. > > g > > I can't boot off of a CD-ROM - no CD-ROM drive. So the subscription wouldn't do it for me, right? I tried making 4 more floppies, including do the md5sum, per Sunny's suggestion. They matched up. Still had the same problem, so I think it must be something other than the floppies. I'll keep trying different things. Thanks for the help. Josh From joshmccormack Sun May 23 03:55:24 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 03:55:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40B058EC.7020703@travelersdiary.com> >>> On May 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have any experience installing any OS to an IBM Thinkpad >>>> 360X? It has no CD-ROM, and an external floppy. When I tried using >>>> the OpenBSD 3.5 laptop floppy boot disk I got this: >>>> >>>> Loading; >>>> ERR R >>>> >>>> Josh >>>> Turns out it was b/c I had the laptop plugged into a port replicator. W/O it made it all the way to where I was ftp'ing sets of files, and it stalled. Ugh. Josh From pete Sun May 23 12:53:46 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 12:53:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] freebsd 5.1 installation In-Reply-To: <20040522235831.95733.qmail@web60604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040522235831.95733.qmail@web60604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40B0D71A.7040600@nomadlogic.org> Bob Butcher wrote: >Hi, > I've been trying to install freebsd 5.1 from the >CD. The installation seems to have gone pretty >smoothly. My problem is when I log in and launch KDE >the screen is too big for the monitor. I'm using an >20" CRT Apple Studio Display. The icons for trash, >home, and the mouse pointer are huge and I can't see >80% of the screen. I have a little ability to drag the >screen left and right but not very far down towards >the bottom. I think the adjustments I need to make are >in the Control Center (is that correct?). However when >I launch the Control Center I can see only a fraction >of the screen and can't get to the bottom of the page >where I could accept, or apply changes or even see >what changes I should be making. > I'd be happy to google for an answer or use the >man pages but I'm not sure what exactly I should be >asking for. > > looks like your /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file is not setup properlly. i would google for XF86Config and the name of your video card. if you are running a mac (which you might b/c of the studio display) do the same except for the type of mac you have (quicksilver etc...). hth -pete > all the best, >Bob Butcher > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Domains ? Claim yours for only $14.70/year >http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > From ike Sun May 23 12:56:44 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 12:56:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40B058EC.7020703@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B058EC.7020703@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <2BFD0DB6-ACDA-11D8-864C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> On May 23, 2004, at 3:55 AM, Josh McCormack wrote: > Turns out it was b/c I had the laptop plugged into a port replicator. > W/O it made it all the way to where I was ftp'ing sets of files, and > it stalled. Ugh. > > Josh Ugh is right- that bites. Question for the list- Can Josh install OpenBSD from a USB media key? Question for Josh- Do you have a usb port on this rig? Rocket- .ike From pete Sun May 23 13:01:33 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:01:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <2BFD0DB6-ACDA-11D8-864C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B058EC.7020703@travelersdiary.com> <2BFD0DB6-ACDA-11D8-864C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40B0D8ED.10703@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > On May 23, 2004, at 3:55 AM, Josh McCormack wrote: > >> Turns out it was b/c I had the laptop plugged into a port replicator. >> W/O it made it all the way to where I was ftp'ing sets of files, and >> it stalled. Ugh. >> >> Josh > > > Ugh is right- that bites. > > Question for the list- > Can Josh install OpenBSD from a USB media key? i believe the BIOS does not allow this on the thinkpads. one option would be to PXE/netboot boot the sucker. if you have another box, you could also use this machine as an nfs server so you don't have to worry about ftp'ing the files from the 'net. -pete > > Question for Josh- > Do you have a usb port on this rig? > > Rocket- > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From joshmccormack Sun May 23 15:59:37 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:59:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD 3.5 install on IBM Thinkpad 360X In-Reply-To: <40B0D8ED.10703@nomadlogic.org> References: <40AF7E55.5030300@travelersdiary.com> <487755AC-AC0E-11D8-98E0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40AFB5D0.7060801@travelersdiary.com> <29F92212-AC31-11D8-8789-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B058EC.7020703@travelersdiary.com> <2BFD0DB6-ACDA-11D8-864C-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40B0D8ED.10703@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40B102A9.2050705@travelersdiary.com> Pete Wright wrote: > Isaac Levy wrote: > >> On May 23, 2004, at 3:55 AM, Josh McCormack wrote: >> >>> Turns out it was b/c I had the laptop plugged into a port replicator. >>> W/O it made it all the way to where I was ftp'ing sets of files, and >>> it stalled. Ugh. >>> >>> Josh >> >> >> >> Ugh is right- that bites. >> >> Question for the list- >> Can Josh install OpenBSD from a USB media key? > > > i believe the BIOS does not allow this on the thinkpads. one option > would be to PXE/netboot boot the sucker. if you have another box, you > could also use this machine as an nfs server so you don't have to worry > about ftp'ing the files from the 'net. > > -pete > >> >> Question for Josh- >> Do you have a usb port on this rig? >> >> Rocket- >> .ike It has a USB port, but the BIOS doesn't allow it to boot from that. When I tried restarting the machine it ignored the floppy and spun around trying to find things on the hard drive. Then I hit ESC a few times (out of desperation - VIM has taught me ESC is my friend), and it did a long hardware summary thing, booted the floppy, and I started over. Didn't need to partition the harddrive again, just labeled. I installed the 3 required sets first from a different FTP server (wanted to work incrementally to make sure I'd get something). Just finished! So I'll move on to other sets next. Ideally it should work now. Thanks for all your help. Josh From dlavigne6 Sun May 23 20:00:08 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> Hello list members :-) I've been invited to give a non-technical talk aimed at users at this year's EuroBSDCon (www.eurobsdcon2004.de). I'll probably end up being the only talk which isn't delivered by a developer aimed at (primarily) developers. I'm thinking of something along the lines of "but I'm not a programmer, how can I contribute to open source?" Does anyone have any suggestions on what they'd like to see in such a presentation? So far I've come up with: -finding an open source OS or project you're passionate about -using send-pr or particular project's bug reporting system -becoming a beta tester (e.g. playing with current on a spare system) -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews -growing where you're planted (installing and showing off open source software at your place of work/school -joining/starting user groups -volunteering at local high school, senior citizens residence, etc. -attending installfests (e.g. BSD booth at "Linux" installfest) What other ideas have you guys seen, done, or heard of? Which URLs are worth mentioning? Or is this talk even worth doing? Dru From george Sun May 23 20:55:41 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:55:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <14A662E2-AD1D-11D8-90F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 23, 2004, at 8:00 PM, Dru wrote: > > Hello list members :-) > > I've been invited to give a non-technical talk aimed at users at this > year's EuroBSDCon (www.eurobsdcon2004.de). I'll probably end up being > the > only talk which isn't delivered by a developer aimed at (primarily) > developers. > > I'm thinking of something along the lines of "but I'm not a programmer, > how can I contribute to open source?" Does anyone have any suggestions > on > what they'd like to see in such a presentation? So far I've come up > with: > > -finding an open source OS or project you're passionate about > > -using send-pr or particular project's bug reporting system > > -becoming a beta tester (e.g. playing with current on a spare system) > > -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews Good example. . .but make this more concrete and simplify. "How I changed the default password encryption to Blowfish for my password file on FreeBSD" "How I used a OpenBSD pf firewall for our web servers" People do lots of simple things, that others would love to know about. And book reviews. . .even on Amazon.com. > > -growing where you're planted (installing and showing off open source > software at your place of work/school > > -joining/starting user groups Or even just starting a mailing list. When people ask me about starting a user group, I tell them, start with a mailing list, post it on Daemon News. Worry about setting up a meeting once you have critical mass. > > -volunteering at local high school, senior citizens residence, etc. > > -attending installfests (e.g. BSD booth at "Linux" installfest) Talk to BSDMall/DN if they'll have a table at a major local event, in the US. > > What other ideas have you guys seen, done, or heard of? Which URLs are > worth mentioning? Or is this talk even worth doing? > Create a list of vendors in your area who use or support BSD. Peruse the various lists of each project and lurk on those that are relevant for your needs. Contribute if appropirate. Get on the various BSD www sites, including DN, undeadly.org, bsdforums, bsdvault, usenet, etc, and read, post, assist. The virtual world is the base of the larger BSD community. Everyone can contribute. Try to get BSD related authors to speak at your local bookstore, UG meeting, Apple store or school. Get a subscription to one or more of the CD's from BSDMall. . .the regular committment of money is very necessary for the continuation and growth of the projects. Money is the big issue few talk about, but an issue that is critical. For OBSD, eg, the costs are very high for their annual Hackathon, and the removal of the DARPA money was a big blow to their efforts. Check the donate pages of each project. The ug.oreilly.com site that *you* told me about earlier this week. . .probably worth mentioning. Dru, I think this is a great topic, and certainly worth it. Developers are the core of the BSD's, without doubt. But most BSD sysadmins, users, etc, just plod along doing their thing, often feeling marginal from the projects. In some ways, I'd argue, that's a reflection of the seriousness of the BSD's, but it's not a reason to maintain walls. . . Sorry for the length. g From hans Sun May 23 21:13:58 2004 From: hans (Hans Zaunere) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:13:58 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon Message-ID: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870221408C@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org > [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Dru > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 8:00 PM > To: NYC Bug List > Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon > > > Hello list members :-) > > I've been invited to give a non-technical talk aimed at users > at this year's EuroBSDCon (www.eurobsdcon2004.de). I'll > probably end up being the only talk which isn't delivered by > a developer aimed at (primarily) developers. > > I'm thinking of something along the lines of "but I'm not a > programmer, how can I contribute to open source?" Does anyone > have any suggestions on what they'd like to see in such a > presentation? So far I've come up with: > > -finding an open source OS or project you're passionate about > > -using send-pr or particular project's bug reporting system > > -becoming a beta tester (e.g. playing with current on a spare system) > > -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews > > -growing where you're planted (installing and showing off > open source software at your place of work/school > > -joining/starting user groups > > -volunteering at local high school, senior citizens residence, etc. > > -attending installfests (e.g. BSD booth at "Linux" installfest) > > What other ideas have you guys seen, done, or heard of? Which > URLs are worth mentioning? Or is this talk even worth doing? I think it'd certainly be worth doing. Depending on how non-technical you want to get, there's often an overlooked aspect of open source. Just like any project (whether it be software or not) there are mangerial and organizational issues that are often overlooked. Programmers are good at programming, but typically not organizing. I think there could be much more open source success (especially for the smaller projects) if non-technicals could feel welcome and knowing how they can participate. This is why I think this talk has a lot of value. Think project management, marketing (a term I use loosely), financial considerations, legal considerations, etc. This brings in people with little or no skill technically, but that offer skills most tech-savvies don't have. The merge of these skills, however, truely makes success. H From chrisc Sun May 23 21:45:17 2004 From: chrisc (Chris Coleman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:45:17 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <02732680-AD24-11D8-9C74-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> I sometimes have a hard time making people realize or remember how different things were when they first started out. In Korea they have a saying: "The frog forgets it was a tadpole." In BSD this means that older admins forget how much they didn't know when they started out. So, new users don't feel like they can contribute anything and old admins think everyone already knows anything they could possibly contribute. So we have to convince both old and new BSD users that they have something worth while to contribute to BSD. Basically, if you are using BSD in some way that isn't currently documented at Daemon News, then we would like an article explaining how you did it. It doesn't matter how trivial you think the explanation is I can guarantee someone else will appreciate it. And if they don't feel they can write, we can never seem to get enough help html formatting and proofreading the articles that come in. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org BSD Mall http://www.bsdmall.com Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org From bob Sun May 23 22:17:51 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:17:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870221408C@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870221408C@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Message-ID: <8F12E931-AD28-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 23, 2004, at 9:13 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Dru >> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 8:00 PM >> >> I've been invited to give a non-technical talk aimed at users >> at this year's EuroBSDCon (www.eurobsdcon2004.de). I'll >> probably end up being the only talk which isn't delivered by >> a developer aimed at (primarily) developers. >> >> I'm thinking of something along the lines of "but I'm not a >> programmer, how can I contribute to open source?" Does anyone >> have any suggestions on what they'd like to see in such a >> presentation? So far I've come up with: -- cut -- >> What other ideas have you guys seen, done, or heard of? Which >> URLs are worth mentioning? Or is this talk even worth doing? > > I think it'd certainly be worth doing. Depending on how non-technical > you want to get, there's often an overlooked aspect of open source. > > Just like any project (whether it be software or not) there are > mangerial and organizational issues that are often overlooked. > Programmers are good at programming, but typically not organizing. > > I think there could be much more open source success (especially for > the > smaller projects) if non-technicals could feel welcome and knowing how > they can participate. This is why I think this talk has a lot of > value. > Think project management, marketing (a term I use loosely), financial > considerations, legal considerations, etc. This brings in people with > little or no skill technically, but that offer skills most tech-savvies > don't have. The merge of these skills, however, truely makes success. [somewhat offtopic.. but] One of the biggest problems is communication. Users (technical or otherwise) of software products don't generally speak up. This does nothing whatsoever for the software, especially free (as in beer) software. I'll give a little example of how not to be a good user (from experience, it was me): A few weeks ago, I needed to process a bunch of Excel files in batch. I did some research on the topic, and I found that there are essentially two solutions out there that met my requirements and claimed to do what I wanted: - xlHtml - Spreadsheet::ParseExcel xlHtml was nice and fast, but it just didn't produce correct output for the small set of input Excel documents I had. Not good! I took a quick glance at the source code, didn't see anything obvious, so I dropped it. This was for a paid project and I wanted to get it done quickly so I didn't try very hard to make it work and I didn't contact the developers. Spreadsheet::ParseExcel was MUCH slower and is some godawful perl code, but at least it seemed to give correct output for the spreadsheets that I needed to process. I haven't done major perl development in a few years so I wasn't even going to try and profile it to find the bottleneck(s), I just decided to live with the performance implications. Again, I wanted to get it over with quickly, so I didn't give any feedback whatsoever to the developers. Are either of these products going to get any better because I tried them out? No. I didn't contribute feedback, file bugs, submit feature requests, money, patches, documentation, examples, support, advocacy, etc. Software, especially open source software, is an evolutionary process guided by the constraints of its contributors (contributors being a very general term). If you don't contribute anything AT ALL to it, it's probably not going to evolve to satisfy your needs. If you want software to work for you, the major contributors in that software's community have to know what you want. There are plenty of ways to make that happen: file bugs, post to mailing lists, hop on IRC, post to forums, write articles, donate, buy stuff, ask for help, etc. Most of it's really pretty easy, but makes a difference when there's a lot of people doing it. As a software developer, I've definitely added features or fixed bugs in software that I didn't need myself because someone asked. If they didn't ask, it wouldn't have have gotten done. Of course, sometimes you won't be heard, so you should speak louder (substantial monetary contributions work as a great amplifier), live with it, or cut your losses and take your business elsewhere. In the smaller projects I've been involved with, what we really need is FEEDBACK, people to help others who don't need direct support from the developers (answering FAQs politely is boring, especially when you've frequently answered them), and people who are willing to spend the time to write articles, documentation, tutorials, etc. (writing documentation is generally not a top priority for those who know the code very well and would rather fix bugs and add features). -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040523/5c9d6851/attachment.bin From jschauma Sun May 23 22:25:45 2004 From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:25:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <20040524022545.GD21270@netmeister.org> Dru wrote: > -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is something that anybody can contribute to - even though getting really good documentation out there is very hard by itself, input from anybody (programmers or non-programmers alike) is important. Often input from non-programmers can help make documentation more helpful: things that are obvious to a programmer are often left out, but the people who need the documentation may not be programmers and thus lack a frame of reference. It is also a great point to overcome one's own shyness of contributing. Initially, a user may think that whatever she has to contribute surely must have been discussed and debated by the folks who distribute the OS. Not being shy about feedback in general is a good point, I think. Positive feedback is always appreciated, and negative feedback, as long as constructive, is also appreciated (at least by those smart enough to look beyond pettiness). Submitting patches for typos (and thinkos) may seem trivial, but help, too. All in all certainly a topic that will be of interest to many people. -Jan -- Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040523/fb9304ae/attachment.bin From george Sun May 23 22:30:55 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:30:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040524022545.GD21270@netmeister.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> <20040524022545.GD21270@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <62187715-AD2A-11D8-85F3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 23, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > Dru wrote: > >> -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews > > This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is > something that anybody can contribute to - even though getting really > I think there's been some good input on this. I'd actually like to hear more from the lurkers on the list, whether or not they have attended a NYCBUG meeting. It would seem that they would have some reaction to the posted comments. . .and some insight others are missing. g From sunny-ml Sun May 23 23:15:12 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 23:15:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <200405232315.13900.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Sunday 23 May 2004 08:00 pm, Dru wrote: > What other ideas have you guys seen, done, or heard of? Which URLs are > worth mentioning? Or is this talk even worth doing? Having end users do end user support. We all know devheads can be real busy people. And so they don't have time to answer simple questions like "how do I get it to do X,Y,Z?". But the various end users might. Most FLOSS apps have various forums, lists, or IRC channels. Joining one and hanging around to answer questions if you can, and when you can is of great help to any FLOSS project. It helps the end user do what they desire to do with the app: to get the job done, not spend all day RTFMing. Example: There is this guy named f3ew on the #postfix IRC channel. From what I gather he is a patch submitter to postfix, but more importantly he answers a rather hefty amount of questions asked in #postfix. I've seen people ask some pretty bizarre questions and f3ew seems to spit the *correct* answer out in a rather fast manner. Sure he may never be recognized for his end user support for postfix, but IMNSHO he def has made a large contribution to postfix. Sunny Dubey From george Sun May 23 23:13:16 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 23:13:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... Message-ID: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> Thought the nycbug folks might know this as well as anyone... I'm looking for an ftp client that runs on Mac, needs be GUI, idiot proof and have ability to do recursive put on a bsd-ftpd directory with mode 333. Any ideas? // George -- George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7 9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631 From JBrown Mon May 24 08:52:27 2004 From: JBrown (Brown, James Jim) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:52:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: G.Rosamond [mailto:george at sddi.net] > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 10:31 PM > To: Jan Schaumann > Cc: NYC Bug List > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon > > > > On May 23, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > > > Dru wrote: > > > >> -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews > > > > This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is > > something that anybody can contribute to - even though > getting really > > > Documentation is important, but there is a more critical need, IMHO. Open Source software needs reliable testing frameworks. Most Open Source projects of substance are large (> 50K lines of code) and most do not have a reliable, rigorous testing framework. My perception is that Open Source testing consists mainly of just getting as many people as possible to run the project code and submit bug reports. While helpful, this is spotty testing. The Perl Test Harness is a step in the right direction. Test programs are written for specific features of a module and compared against expected output. These can be run by anyone, on any hw/sw platform that runs Perl. The BIND 9 test suite is another good example, although in this case, it's not easy to set up and run. Consider challenging the Open Source community to develop testing frameworks for every project. 'make test' should perform a complete suite of tests for the project that can be reused for every release. My $0.02USD. Best Regards, Jim B. Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. ThruPoint, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040524/02930ac9/attachment.html From pete Mon May 24 09:17:00 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:17:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40B1F5CC.7040608@nomadlogic.org> Brown, James (Jim) wrote: > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: G.Rosamond [mailto:george at sddi.net] >>Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 10:31 PM >>To: Jan Schaumann >>Cc: NYC Bug List >>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon >> >> >> >>On May 23, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: >> >> >> >>>Dru wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>-contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews >>>> >>>> >>>This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is >>>something that anybody can contribute to - even though >>> >>> >>getting really >> >> >>> >>> >>> > >Documentation is important, but there is a more critical need, IMHO. > >Open Source software needs reliable testing frameworks. Most Open >Source projects of substance are large (> 50K lines of code) and >most do not have a reliable, rigorous testing framework. >My perception is that Open Source testing consists mainly of just >getting as many people as possible to run the project code >and submit bug reports. While helpful, this is spotty testing. > > >The Perl Test Harness is a step in the right direction. >Test programs are written for specific features of a module >and compared against expected output. These can be run by >anyone, on any hw/sw platform that runs Perl. > >The BIND 9 test suite is another good example, although in this >case, it's not easy to set up and run. > > >Consider challenging the Open Source community to develop testing >frameworks for every project. 'make test' should perform a >complete suite of tests for the project that can be reused >for every release. > > > yea i totally agree with you there. and hopefully OSDL has started to take on this role, and maybe other organizations will follow. i do not even know of any opensource software testing out there, is there any? -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Mon May 24 09:19:13 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:19:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> Message-ID: <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> George Georgalis wrote: >Thought the nycbug folks might know this as well as anyone... I'm >looking for an ftp client that runs on Mac, needs be GUI, idiot proof >and have ability to do recursive put on a bsd-ftpd directory with mode >333. Any ideas? > > fetch for OSX is your best shot in my opinion (http://www.fetchsoftworks.com/). you have to pay like $20 for it, but considering i've been using fetch for free since the mid 90's i think it's worth it. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Mon May 24 09:21:11 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:21:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle on a Mac Message-ID: <40B1F6C7.6010104@nomadlogic.org> who woulda' thought this would happen a couple years ago... http://seminars.apple.com/tours/oracle/indextrk.html?s=99 -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From bob Mon May 24 09:27:35 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:27:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <40B1F5CC.7040608@nomadlogic.org> References: <40B1F5CC.7040608@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <1E7A7B49-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 24, 2004, at 9:17 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > Brown, James (Jim) wrote: > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: G.Rosamond [mailto:george at sddi.net] >>> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 10:31 PM >>> To: Jan Schaumann >>> Cc: NYC Bug List >>> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon >>> >>> On May 23, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dru wrote: >>>> >>>>> -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews >>>>> >>>> This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is >>>> something that anybody can contribute to - even though >>> getting really >>> >>>> >>>> >> >> Documentation is important, but there is a more critical need, IMHO. >> >> Open Source software needs reliable testing frameworks. Most Open >> Source projects of substance are large (> 50K lines of code) and >> most do not have a reliable, rigorous testing framework. My >> perception is that Open Source testing consists mainly of just >> getting as many people as possible to run the project code >> and submit bug reports. While helpful, this is spotty testing. >> >> >> The Perl Test Harness is a step in the right direction. Test >> programs are written for specific features of a module >> and compared against expected output. These can be run by >> anyone, on any hw/sw platform that runs Perl. >> >> The BIND 9 test suite is another good example, although in this >> case, it's not easy to set up and run. >> >> >> Consider challenging the Open Source community to develop testing >> frameworks for every project. 'make test' should perform a complete >> suite of tests for the project that can be reused >> for every release. >> > yea i totally agree with you there. and hopefully OSDL has started to > take on this role, and maybe other organizations will follow. i do > not even know of any opensource software testing out there, is there > any? It's almost exclusively done on a project by project basis. Testing is a lot harder than it sounds. You more or less have to design your software to be easily testable, or you're pretty screwed. Developing a test suite is often just as hard, sometimes harder, than the application or library itself. It takes a much higher level understanding of the problem at hand and the implementation of the software in order to write effective tests. -bob From bob Mon May 24 09:28:44 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:28:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 24, 2004, at 9:19 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > George Georgalis wrote: > >> Thought the nycbug folks might know this as well as anyone... I'm >> looking for an ftp client that runs on Mac, needs be GUI, idiot proof >> and have ability to do recursive put on a bsd-ftpd directory with mode >> 333. Any ideas? >> > > fetch for OSX is your best shot in my opinion > (http://www.fetchsoftworks.com/). you have to pay like $20 for it, > but considering i've been using fetch for free since the mid 90's i > think it's worth it. There's also RBrowser (which wraps, or at least used to wrap, the CLI utilities with a Cocoa UI) and Transmit (another classic). I don't have any significant experience with any of them though. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040524/8ca24461/attachment.bin From pete Mon May 24 09:42:44 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:42:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <1E7A7B49-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <40B1F5CC.7040608@nomadlogic.org> <1E7A7B49-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <40B1FBD4.4040302@nomadlogic.org> Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 24, 2004, at 9:17 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> Brown, James (Jim) wrote: >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: G.Rosamond [mailto:george at sddi.net] >>>> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 10:31 PM >>>> To: Jan Schaumann >>>> Cc: NYC Bug List >>>> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon >>>> >>>> On May 23, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dru wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> -contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews >>>>>> >>>>> This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is >>>>> something that anybody can contribute to - even though >>>> >>>> getting really >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> Documentation is important, but there is a more critical need, IMHO. >>> >>> Open Source software needs reliable testing frameworks. Most Open >>> Source projects of substance are large (> 50K lines of code) and >>> most do not have a reliable, rigorous testing framework. My >>> perception is that Open Source testing consists mainly of just >>> getting as many people as possible to run the project code >>> and submit bug reports. While helpful, this is spotty testing. >>> >>> >>> The Perl Test Harness is a step in the right direction. Test >>> programs are written for specific features of a module >>> and compared against expected output. These can be run by >>> anyone, on any hw/sw platform that runs Perl. >>> >>> The BIND 9 test suite is another good example, although in this >>> case, it's not easy to set up and run. >>> >>> >>> Consider challenging the Open Source community to develop testing >>> frameworks for every project. 'make test' should perform a complete >>> suite of tests for the project that can be reused >>> for every release. >>> >> yea i totally agree with you there. and hopefully OSDL has started >> to take on this role, and maybe other organizations will follow. i >> do not even know of any opensource software testing out there, is >> there any? > > > It's almost exclusively done on a project by project basis. Testing > is a lot harder than it sounds. You more or less have to design your > software to be easily testable, or you're pretty screwed. Developing > a test suite is often just as hard, sometimes harder, than the > application or library itself. It takes a much higher level > understanding of the problem at hand and the implementation of the > software in order to write effective tests. > > -bob > yea, i was referring to products like Intersolv's PVCS tracker (i used to work for them). I know we have Bugzilla etc. in the FOSS area, to track bugs, but i don't know if there is an enterprise testing suite out there. -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From dlavigne6 Mon May 24 09:50:16 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:50:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <20040524094824.E694@dru.domain.org> Gee, thanks to everyone who responded! I knew I would get some really good feedback from this list. Dru From JBrown Mon May 24 09:50:04 2004 From: JBrown (Brown, James Jim) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:50:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Wright [mailto:pete at nomadlogic.org] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 9:17 AM > To: Brown, James (Jim) > Cc: NYC Bug List > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon > > > Brown, James (Jim) wrote: > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: G.Rosamond [mailto:george at sddi.net] > >>Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 10:31 PM > >>To: Jan Schaumann > >>Cc: NYC Bug List > >>Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon > >> > >> > >> > >>On May 23, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Jan Schaumann wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Dru wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>-contributing documentation, tutorials, reviews > >>>> > >>>> > >>>This is one point that can't be stressed enough. Documentation is > >>>something that anybody can contribute to - even though > >>> > >>> > >>getting really > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > >Documentation is important, but there is a more critical need, IMHO. > > > >Open Source software needs reliable testing frameworks. Most Open > >Source projects of substance are large (> 50K lines of code) and > >most do not have a reliable, rigorous testing framework. > >My perception is that Open Source testing consists mainly of just > >getting as many people as possible to run the project code > >and submit bug reports. While helpful, this is spotty testing. > > > > > >The Perl Test Harness is a step in the right direction. > >Test programs are written for specific features of a module > >and compared against expected output. These can be run by > >anyone, on any hw/sw platform that runs Perl. > > > >The BIND 9 test suite is another good example, although in this > >case, it's not easy to set up and run. > > > > > >Consider challenging the Open Source community to develop testing > >frameworks for every project. 'make test' should perform a > >complete suite of tests for the project that can be reused > >for every release. > > > > > > > yea i totally agree with you there. and hopefully OSDL has > started to > take on this role, and maybe other organizations will follow. > i do not > even know of any opensource software testing out there, is there any? > I don't know of any 'one-size-fits-all' software testing suite. I do know of projects that have formed their own test suites and make them available- some right in the project Makefile as I noted above. But not every project does this. 'make test' is not universally adopted. The point I'm trying to emphasize here is that spotty testing must go away. Open Source needs rigorous testing if it is going to seriously compete with commercial products. Of course, the specific tests would vary by project. A web proect needs network based web testing, while a graphics project needs a lot of graphics. What's common is that they both have large code bases that can be modularly (is that a word?) tested. The modularized frameworks would cover the standard 'unit, integration, system' tests in their own way. Perhaps a branding scheme- 'Project Foo conforms to Open Source Test Framework v. 1.0' with a spiffy logo would work. Personally, I'd rather see somethat like that instead of 'Powered by Foo'. Best Regards, Jim B. PS- I'm not a testing engineer, but I have done a fair amount of software development over the years. I've developed my own tests for my own code, and in a few cases, I've had to endure the rigors submitting it to a larger enterprise test environment. It was a helpful experience, though somewhat painful. Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. ThruPoint, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040524/1a1276de/attachment.html From dlavigne6 Mon May 24 10:10:08 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040524100529.I694@dru.domain.org> On Mon, 24 May 2004, Brown, James (Jim) wrote: > I don't know of any 'one-size-fits-all' software testing suite. > I do know of projects that have formed their own test suites > and make them available- some right in the project Makefile > as I noted above. But not every project does this. 'make test' > is not universally adopted. > > The point I'm trying to emphasize here is that spotty testing > must go away. Open Source needs rigorous testing if it is going > to seriously compete with commercial products. > > Of course, the specific tests would vary by project. A web proect > needs network based web testing, while a graphics project needs > a lot of graphics. What's common is that they both have large > code bases that can be modularly (is that a word?) tested. > The modularized frameworks would cover the standard 'unit, > integration, system' tests in their own way. > > Perhaps a branding scheme- > 'Project Foo conforms to Open Source Test Framework v. 1.0' > with a spiffy logo would work. Personally, I'd rather see > somethat like that instead of 'Powered by Foo'. Sounds like an excellent beginning to another talk, but not by me as I'm not a programmer so I couldn't bring it the hands-on experience it deserves. However, this could be a valuable talk at next year's BSDCan-- if there's any takers. It would be an excellent arena to start a ball rolling in a conference room full of developers.... Dru From pete Mon May 24 10:11:26 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:11:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <20040524094824.E694@dru.domain.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> <20040524094824.E694@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <40B2028E.20307@nomadlogic.org> Dru wrote: > > Gee, thanks to everyone who responded! I knew I would get some really > good feedback from this list. > good luck dru! i wish i could make your talk! -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From kit Mon May 24 10:21:41 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:21:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) Message-ID: Hey, NYCBUG folks: I'm having some problems with one of my servers & I'm running out of ideas on how to fix it. It's an Athlon 1.8GHz box running OpenBSD 3.3 & it crashes every few days. Lately, it doesn't want to come back up. Nothing in the logs & it doesn't seem to be crashing under load, just losing power once in a while for no apparent reason. It was happening around 6:30-7:00 AM at first, but it died some time after 6:00 PM & before 1:30 AM yesterday. Nothing in the logs seems to point to hardware, losing power seems to point to the power supply, but it's still happening with a brand new 480W Antec PS... Basically, all I can think to do is replace the motherboard at this point. I'm wondering: 1. if anyone can think of anything else that might be responsible for these problems & 2. if anybody can suggest a good place in the city to pick up a new Socket-A mobo. Thanks, -Kit From dlavigne6 Mon May 24 10:32:55 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <40B2028E.20307@nomadlogic.org> References: <2A922132-AADB-11D8-AEDA-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <20040523194135.T560@dru.domain.org> <20040524094824.E694@dru.domain.org> <40B2028E.20307@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20040524103116.C694@dru.domain.org> On Mon, 24 May 2004, Pete Wright wrote: > Dru wrote: > >> >> Gee, thanks to everyone who responded! I knew I would get some really good >> feedback from this list. >> > good luck dru! i wish i could make your talk! Well, you may miss the tail-end of Octoberfest in Germany, but the abstract for the talk itself and the slides will be posted to my O'Reilly blog when I get back and at some point will also be posted at the EuroBSDcon website. Dru From JBrown Mon May 24 10:34:01 2004 From: JBrown (Brown, James Jim) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:34:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Kit Halsted [mailto:kit at kithalsted.com] > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 10:22 AM > To: talk at lists.nycbug.org > Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) > > > Hey, NYCBUG folks: > > I'm having some problems with one of my servers & I'm running out of > ideas on how to fix it. It's an Athlon 1.8GHz box running OpenBSD 3.3 > & it crashes every few days. Lately, it doesn't want to come back up. > Nothing in the logs & it doesn't seem to be crashing under load, just > losing power once in a while for no apparent reason. It was happening > around 6:30-7:00 AM at first, but it died some time after 6:00 PM & > before 1:30 AM yesterday. Nothing in the logs seems to point to > hardware, losing power seems to point to the power supply, but it's > still happening with a brand new 480W Antec PS... > > Basically, all I can think to do is replace the motherboard at this > point. I'm wondering: > > 1. if anyone can think of anything else that might be responsible for > these problems & > > 2. if anybody can suggest a good place in the city to pick up a new > Socket-A mobo. > > Thanks, > -Kit Heat related? The temp inside the case is what matters, not the ambient temp. Can you add an extra fan to your case? In my experience heat problems tend to compound themselves over time- simlilar to what you are describing. Best Regards, Jim B. Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. ThruPoint, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040524/1f9e8408/attachment.html From dlavigne6 Mon May 24 10:45:47 2004 From: dlavigne6 (Dru) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870221408C@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> References: <41EE526EC2D3C74286415780D3BA9F870221408C@ehost011-1.exch011.intermedia.net> Message-ID: <20040524103656.H694@dru.domain.org> On Sun, 23 May 2004, Hans Zaunere wrote: > Just like any project (whether it be software or not) there are > mangerial and organizational issues that are often overlooked. > Programmers are good at programming, but typically not organizing. > > I think there could be much more open source success (especially for the > smaller projects) if non-technicals could feel welcome and knowing how > they can participate. This is why I think this talk has a lot of value. > Think project management, marketing (a term I use loosely), financial > considerations, legal considerations, etc. This brings in people with > little or no skill technically, but that offer skills most tech-savvies > don't have. The merge of these skills, however, truely makes success. I'd like to explore this part of the thread a bit more. It is very important, but I'm a techie (not a programmer, but definitely a techie) so I know very little about project management, marketing, etc. other than that they are a big deal and I don't know how to do them adequately... I think we all agree (and hopefully won't digress into the unfairness of it all) that quality open source (especially BSD) doesn't quite have the marketshare of its commercial counterparts. But what can I as an end user/sysadmin do about it? How do I get the attention of people that can do something about it? This may well end up being the core issue of the talk. Will end users still feel like they're emptying the ocean with a teaspoon or will they feel their actions can really make a difference? Dru From kit Mon May 24 10:43:07 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:43:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Jim. Heat was one of the first things to occur to me, & one thing I did last time I was there was cleaning the filter on the server room AC. (Dropped ambient temp by about 15 degrees! That filter was nasty...) Still, it never made sense to me that heat problems would happen when the box was close to idle; I would expect crashes at peak times rather than at 7:00 AM when the office is empty & no one's hitting the web db... -Kit At 10:34 AM -0400 5/24/04, Brown, James (Jim) wrote: <...> >Heat related? The temp inside the case is what matters, >not the ambient temp. > >Can you add an extra fan to your case? > >In my experience heat problems tend to compound themselves >over time- simlilar to what you are describing. From bschonhorst Mon May 24 11:38:49 2004 From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:38:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> On May 24, 2004, at 9:28 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On May 24, 2004, at 9:19 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> George Georgalis wrote: >> >>> Thought the nycbug folks might know this as well as anyone... I'm >>> looking for an ftp client that runs on Mac, needs be GUI, idiot proof >>> and have ability to do recursive put on a bsd-ftpd directory with >>> mode >>> 333. Any ideas? >>> >> >> fetch for OSX is your best shot in my opinion >> (http://www.fetchsoftworks.com/). you have to pay like $20 for it, >> but considering i've been using fetch for free since the mid 90's i >> think it's worth it. > > There's also RBrowser (which wraps, or at least used to wrap, the CLI > utilities with a Cocoa UI) and Transmit (another classic). I don't > have any significant experience with any of them though. Don't forget fugu which uses sftp and scp. It does not support recursive deletion or directory download though. http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/ -Brad Schonhorst -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040524/5a024ecb/attachment.bin From pete Mon May 24 11:45:16 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:45:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> Message-ID: <40B2188C.6090102@nomadlogic.org> Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > > http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/ > that looks great, i'll have to throw that in my toolchest cheers pete > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk at lists.nycbug.org >http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From mlists Mon May 24 11:50:21 2004 From: mlists (mlists at bizintegrators.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:50:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040524155021.GC30341@bizintegrators.com> On Mon, May 24, 2004 at 10:21:41AM -0400, Kit Halsted wrote: > Hey, NYCBUG folks: > > I'm having some problems with one of my servers & I'm running out of > ideas on how to fix it. It's an Athlon 1.8GHz box running OpenBSD 3.3 > & it crashes every few days. Lately, it doesn't want to come back up. > Nothing in the logs & it doesn't seem to be crashing under load, just > losing power once in a while for no apparent reason. It was happening > around 6:30-7:00 AM at first, but it died some time after 6:00 PM & > before 1:30 AM yesterday. Nothing in the logs seems to point to > hardware, losing power seems to point to the power supply, but it's > still happening with a brand new 480W Antec PS... Check your BIOS settings, make sure your printer port is being seen fine by OpenBSD, and that you don't get any "stray interupt 7" messages, look while you boot or scan your messages for those. It could be your disk controler, which one do you have? Which driver does it use? Is this a "brand" name box? Also it could be your disk(s), if they are SCSI check then in SCSI prom. Are they raided (hardware)? Does it write to the console when it freezes? Or nothing, just a hard freeze? > > Basically, all I can think to do is replace the motherboard at this > point. I'm wondering: > > 1. if anyone can think of anything else that might be responsible for > these problems & It can overheat without load. Make sure your fan is good enough. You can monitor the temperature in BIOS for some time, if possible (cause server is down), and see if it gets into the "red" numbers. > > 2. if anybody can suggest a good place in the city to pick up a new > Socket-A mobo. Which motherboard do you have? -bruno From mikel.king Mon May 24 13:15:20 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:15:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? Message-ID: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would like to know before I ask the client if I could have them before they hit the dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. From pete Mon May 24 13:52:50 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:52:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: > Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would like to > know before I ask the client if I could have them before they hit the > dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. hrm....i think at a minimum we would need two. altho ideally one for each OS that we are going to test would be best right? so we have: FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD these seem for sure right? did we make a decision yet regarding Darwin/Linux/others? -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright email: pete at nomadlogic.org mobile: 917.415.9866 web: www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From mikel.king Mon May 24 13:58:11 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:58:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > >> Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would like to >> know before I ask the client if I could have them before they hit the >> dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. > > > hrm....i think at a minimum we would need two. altho ideally one for > each OS that we are going to test would be best right? so we have: > > FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD > these seem for sure right? did we make a decision yet regarding > Darwin/Linux/others? > > -pete > > A win2k3 box, and some sort of MAC OS 10.x Therefore I shall see what I can do about the 4 intel based boxes From kit Mon May 24 16:39:10 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:39:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: <20040524155021.GC30341@bizintegrators.com> References: <20040524155021.GC30341@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: At 11:50 AM -0400 5/24/04, mlists at bizintegrators.com wrote: >On Mon, May 24, 2004 at 10:21:41AM -0400, Kit Halsted wrote: >> Hey, NYCBUG folks: >> >> I'm having some problems with one of my servers & I'm running out of >> ideas on how to fix it. It's an Athlon 1.8GHz box running OpenBSD 3.3 >> & it crashes every few days. Lately, it doesn't want to come back up. >> Nothing in the logs & it doesn't seem to be crashing under load, just >> losing power once in a while for no apparent reason. It was happening >> around 6:30-7:00 AM at first, but it died some time after 6:00 PM & >> before 1:30 AM yesterday. Nothing in the logs seems to point to >> hardware, losing power seems to point to the power supply, but it's >> still happening with a brand new 480W Antec PS... > >Check your BIOS settings, make sure your printer port is being seen >fine by OpenBSD, and that you don't get any "stray interupt 7" >messages, look while you boot or scan your messages for those. Heh. thanks, I guess I forgot to mention that this box was fine for the 1st 15 months or so. >It could be your disk controler, which one do you have? Adaptec 2400A >Which driver >does it use? iop0: configuring... ioprbs0 at iop0 tid 521: direct access, fixed scsibus0 at ioprbs0: 1 targets >Is this a "brand" name box? Built it myself. >Also it could be your disk(s), if they are SCSI check then in SCSI prom. >Are they raided (hardware)? Yes, IDE RAID 5, 3 disks in use + 1 hot spare. >Does it write to the console when it freezes? Or nothing, just a hard >freeze? Power goes off. > > >> Basically, all I can think to do is replace the motherboard at this >> point. I'm wondering: >> >> 1. if anyone can think of anything else that might be responsible for >> these problems & > >It can overheat without load. Make sure your fan is good enough. You >can monitor the temperature in BIOS for some time, if possible (cause >server is down), and see if it gets into the "red" numbers. I threw a new processor fan in it today. I also noticed that the slot fan I had in there is not spinning; I wonder if that's it. That GigE (nge) card gets wicked hot! Anybody know of a cooler-running GigE card, or maybe something with a fan on the heatsink? > > >> 2. if anybody can suggest a good place in the city to pick up a new >> Socket-A mobo. > >Which motherboard do you have? I replaced the MSI KT3 Ultra 2 with an MSI KT4AVL from J&R. I'm not really sure it'll help; I expected to find some cooked caps on the old mobo*, but they're all flat & non-leaky. Thanks, -Kit * http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Feb/bch20030207018535.htm -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From joshmccormack Mon May 24 20:05:06 2004 From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:05:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> Mikel King wrote: > Pete Wright wrote: > >> Mikel King wrote: >> >>> Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would like to >>> know before I ask the client if I could have them before they hit the >>> dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. >> >> >> >> hrm....i think at a minimum we would need two. altho ideally one for >> each OS that we are going to test would be best right? so we have: >> >> FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD >> these seem for sure right? did we make a decision yet regarding >> Darwin/Linux/others? >> >> -pete >> >> > A win2k3 box, and some sort of MAC OS 10.x > > Therefore I shall see what I can do about the 4 intel based boxes Was it decided what tests would be done? If there will be time in addition to whatever other tests you want to run, I'd like to do compare FOSS VPN options on different platforms and how they interact. When I asked about it before there was one person interested, who didn't have time. If this is way too boring for everyone (understandable!), if your client has extra junkers destined for the dumpster I'd like to grab a couple, if I could, to try it out on my own. Josh From george Mon May 24 20:15:05 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:15:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 24, 2004, at 8:05 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > > > Mikel King wrote: > >> Pete Wright wrote: >>> Mikel King wrote: >>> >>>> Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would like >>>> to know before I ask the client if I could have them before they >>>> hit the dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. >>> >>> >>> >>> hrm....i think at a minimum we would need two. altho ideally one >>> for each OS that we are going to test would be best right? so we >>> have: >>> >>> FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD >>> these seem for sure right? did we make a decision yet regarding >>> Darwin/Linux/others? >>> >>> -pete >>> >>> >> A win2k3 box, and some sort of MAC OS 10.x >> Therefore I shall see what I can do about the 4 intel based boxes > > Was it decided what tests would be done? > I'm a bit confused myself Josh. I think some people are focused on network protocols, which was the initial theme. . . > If there will be time in addition to whatever other tests you want to > run, I'd like to do compare FOSS VPN options on different platforms > and how they interact. > I think that would be a great thing to test in a lab format. But it's probably better to do these tests separately. The KISS principle, as Peter stated, should reign supreme. > When I asked about it before there was one person interested, who > didn't have time. If this is way too boring for everyone > (understandable!), if your client has extra junkers destined for the > dumpster I'd like to grab a couple, if I could, to try it out on my > own. > > Josh Let's do it in a group. I'd like to be part of these lab sessions too. . .and I'm sure others would too. We need to clarify time, place, date, and the two people responsible for the base setup. And before that, there needs to be some consensus on the test parameters. g From george Mon May 24 20:45:25 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:45:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] McKusick interview Message-ID: For those who don't know, Marshall McKusick is the long-time core developers (and creators) of this BSD world in which we dwell. This interview provides some insight into the SCO case against IBM/Linux, with an eye upon the early 1990's battles that brought about the open source BSD family. Oh, yeah, he's also the head of USENIX. And holds the patent for the BSD Daemon logo to protect it from the potential vultures. http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/qna/ 0,289202,sid39_gci966588,00.html g From mspitze1 Mon May 24 21:07:04 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:07:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: <20040524155021.GC30341@bizintegrators.com> Message-ID: <20040524210704.6856992c@bogomips.optonline.net> On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:39:10 -0400 Kit Halsted wrote: > Heh. thanks, I guess I forgot to mention that this box was fine for > the 1st 15 months or so. > > > >Does it write to the console when it freezes? Or nothing, just a hard > >freeze? > > Power goes off. have you replaced the power supply? marc From mikel.king Mon May 24 22:05:03 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:05:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 24, 2004, at 8:05 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > >> >> >> Mikel King wrote: >> >>> Pete Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Mikel King wrote: >>>> >>>>> Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would like >>>>> to know before I ask the client if I could have them before they >>>>> hit the dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> hrm....i think at a minimum we would need two. altho ideally one >>>> for each OS that we are going to test would be best right? so we >>>> have: >>>> >>>> FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD >>>> these seem for sure right? did we make a decision yet regarding >>>> Darwin/Linux/others? >>>> >>>> -pete >>>> >>>> >>> A win2k3 box, and some sort of MAC OS 10.x >>> Therefore I shall see what I can do about the 4 intel based boxes >> >> >> Was it decided what tests would be done? >> > > I'm a bit confused myself Josh. I think some people are focused on > network protocols, which was the initial theme. . . > >> If there will be time in addition to whatever other tests you want to >> run, I'd like to do compare FOSS VPN options on different platforms >> and how they interact. >> > > I think that would be a great thing to test in a lab format. But it's > probably better to do these tests separately. The KISS principle, as > Peter stated, should reign supreme. > >> When I asked about it before there was one person interested, who >> didn't have time. If this is way too boring for everyone >> (understandable!), if your client has extra junkers destined for the >> dumpster I'd like to grab a couple, if I could, to try it out on my own. >> >> Josh > > > Let's do it in a group. I'd like to be part of these lab sessions > too. . .and I'm sure others would too. > > We need to clarify time, place, date, and the two people responsible > for the base setup. > > And before that, there needs to be some consensus on the test parameters. > > g > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk All I am trying to do is get us a lab to work in for right now, and to possibly get the base systems completed as quickly as possible so that we can then take application for lab time...sounds too much like college but I am certain that we would all agee this this will require some sort of structure if we are to pull it off. I made the initial request to my client for the loaner boxes. And I am working on some space here at OCS for hosting them. Since most of the initial testing wont require any real b/w it will not be a serious problem. once the machines are aquired and setup then we will define the experiments, and grant remote access. No sense having to crowd around the machines to get the job done right. Of course if you are buying, the pizza and beer then I'm game...;-) I think that now would be the time to decide which OSes/rev we are going to use a test platforms. I will supply and setup Win2k3 and fBSD5.x, but will definately need help with nBSD and oBSD, as well as any MAC stuff should we get lucky enough to find a matched class of machine. Of course this could all be premature if the client isn't willing to part with these machines even for a limitted basis. Think positivly, because how often do you stumble across a batch of identical hardware. -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From clarke Mon May 24 22:27:00 2004 From: clarke (Nigel Clarke) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 02:27:00 -0000 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Security Books? Message-ID: <1085452671.8006.3.camel@mckenzie> I'm looking for input on *BSD security books. What would be helpful in a BSD or Unix security book? Thanks -- Nigel Clarke CRAFTED PACKETS LLC Security Engineer clarke at craftedpackets.net www.craftedpackets.net From george Mon May 24 22:51:39 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 22:51:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Security Books? In-Reply-To: <1085452671.8006.3.camel@mckenzie> References: <1085452671.8006.3.camel@mckenzie> Message-ID: <724E5ACE-ADF6-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 24, 2004, at 10:37 PM, Nigel Clarke wrote: > I'm looking for input on *BSD security books. What would be helpful in > a BSD or Unix security book? > > Thanks > -- > Nigel Clarke CRAFTED PACKETS LLC > Security Engineer clarke at craftedpackets.net > www.craftedpackets.net > Outside of the recent book on OpenBSD Secure Architecture, there's no book exclusively on BSD security. The best bet is certain chapters from the array of books, including Michael Lucas' on Free and Open. There's a large variety of How-To's available online. I did one a long while back that's accessible from www.sddi.net. It's dated, incomplete, etc., but IMHO it does provide some basics, plus the references are useful. g From bob Mon May 24 23:11:04 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:11:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Security Books? In-Reply-To: <724E5ACE-ADF6-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <1085452671.8006.3.camel@mckenzie> <724E5ACE-ADF6-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <284584A4-ADF9-11D8-BDF7-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 24, 2004, at 10:51 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > On May 24, 2004, at 10:37 PM, Nigel Clarke wrote: > >> I'm looking for input on *BSD security books. What would be helpful in >> a BSD or Unix security book? > > Outside of the recent book on OpenBSD Secure Architecture, there's no > book exclusively on BSD security. > > The best bet is certain chapters from the array of books, including > Michael Lucas' on Free and Open. > > There's a large variety of How-To's available online. > > I did one a long while back that's accessible from www.sddi.net. It's > dated, incomplete, etc., but IMHO it does provide some basics, plus > the references are useful. Secure Architectures with OpenBSD is more like a series of pretty good "man pages" and tutorials than a book on security. It just so happens that the software covered is mostly security and networking related.. it doesn't really cover security as a topic in and of itself (or if it did, I didn't notice). It seems like Theo thought more or less the same, as the front cover uses this quote: "This book works in tandem with the OpenBSD manual pages. As a result, it will help many users grow and get the most from the system." It's worth having, though it's mostly information you'd already know if you've been in the trenches a while. The title is a bit of a misnomer, it's just a little, but essential, piece of the "Secure Architectures" puzzle. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040524/81e8b086/attachment.bin From george Mon May 24 23:17:20 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:17:20 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [nycbug-talk] BSD Security Books? Message-ID: <08AC4B88-ADFA-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> oops. Begin forwarded message: > From: G. Rosamond > Date: May 24, 2004 11:16:54 PM EDT > To: clarke at craftedpackets.net > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] BSD Security Books? > > > On May 24, 2004, at 11:12 PM, Nigel Clarke wrote: > >> George, >> >> The site is good. Thanks for the input. >> >> Nigel >> > > for a dated incomplete piece, yeah. > > There's another one that someone did after me, which is better, and > builds on mine, uses many of my resources, yet they don't give me a > mention. > > I don't have the link, but I have to say, theirs is better. > > Every BSD book you find will have a decent section on security. You > should also browse OnLamp.com's BSD section. > > What version of BSD are you running? There are mighty differences in > some of the tweaking between each, and certainly between FBSD 4.x > versus 5.x. Something you can thank TrustedBSD.org for. > > g > From pete Tue May 25 00:25:52 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:25:52 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40B2CAD0.6030405@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: > > All I am trying to do is get us a lab to work in for right now, and to > possibly get the base systems completed as quickly as possible so that > we can then take application for lab time...sounds too much like > college but I am certain that we would all agee this this will require > some sort of structure if we are to pull it off. I made the initial > request to my client for the loaner boxes. And I am working on some > space here at OCS for hosting them. Since most of the initial testing > wont require any real b/w it will not be a serious problem. once the > machines are aquired and setup then we will define the experiments, > and grant remote access. yea i totally agree! > > No sense having to crowd around the machines to get the job done > right. Of course if you are buying, the pizza and beer then I'm > game...;-) > > I think that now would be the time to decide which OSes/rev we are > going to use a test platforms. I will supply and setup Win2k3 and > fBSD5.x, but will definately need help with nBSD and oBSD, as well as > any MAC stuff should we get lucky enough to find a matched class of > machine. > i'm game working on oBSD. regarding mac, i was just thinking about that. george do you think apple would be kind enough to lend us a osx server for some tests. i.e. if we could say "apple, we would like to benchmark osx against linux and the rest of the bsd's next week" do you think they would lend us a machine for this purpose? who knows, it might be good publicity for them ;^) > Of course this could all be premature if the client isn't willing to > part with these machines even for a limitted basis. Think positivly, > because how often do you stumble across a batch of identical hardware. > positive ;) altho, if it falls through i'm sure we can gather some money (donations, raffle's etc.) to purchase white boxes or something... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Mon May 24 23:32:09 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:32:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B2CAD0.6030405@nomadlogic.org> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> <40B2CAD0.6030405@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <1AB2A0B2-ADFC-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 25, 2004, at 12:25 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > >> >> All I am trying to do is get us a lab to work in for right now, and >> to possibly get the base systems completed as quickly as possible so >> that we can then take application for lab time...sounds too much like >> college but I am certain that we would all agee this this will >> require some sort of structure if we are to pull it off. I made the >> initial request to my client for the loaner boxes. And I am working >> on some space here at OCS for hosting them. Since most of the initial >> testing wont require any real b/w it will not be a serious problem. >> once the machines are aquired and setup then we will define the >> experiments, and grant remote access. > > > yea i totally agree! > Onsite is probably a better deal, since we can pull others around, and make it a collective learning experience, IMO. >> >> No sense having to crowd around the machines to get the job done >> right. Of course if you are buying, the pizza and beer then I'm >> game...;-) >> >> I think that now would be the time to decide which OSes/rev we are >> going to use a test platforms. I will supply and setup Win2k3 and >> fBSD5.x, but will definately need help with nBSD and oBSD, as well as >> any MAC stuff should we get lucky enough to find a matched class of >> machine. >> > i'm game working on oBSD. regarding mac, i was just thinking about > that. george do you think apple would be kind enough to lend us a osx > server for some tests. i.e. if we could say "apple, we would like to > benchmark osx against linux and the rest of the bsd's next week" do > you think they would lend us a machine for this purpose? who knows, > it might be good publicity for them ;^) I doubt it. . .I don't think it's that easy for them to get the hardware for those purposes. We're still waiting on the Xserve expo for their end. > > >> Of course this could all be premature if the client isn't willing to >> part with these machines even for a limitted basis. Think positivly, >> because how often do you stumble across a batch of identical >> hardware. >> > positive ;) altho, if it falls through i'm sure we can gather some > money (donations, raffle's etc.) to purchase white boxes or > something... > As I stated earlier on this, I have a vendor who will loan us several identical machines. They won't be Piv or Xenon boxes, but they will be adequate for our purposes. I really don't think borrowing boxes from a client is necessary. g From jromero Tue May 25 03:36:35 2004 From: jromero (Jeronimo Romero) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 03:36:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DNS hosting control panel software Message-ID: <33936358b5e0534c94e9cf8f3e182287@romero3000.com> Does anyone know of a good DNS hosting control panel software. Need to give clients access to control panel in order to let them edit their own dns zones. Also has anyone heard of "Positive Software Corporation". http://www.psoft.net From ike Tue May 25 04:31:47 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:31:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment In-Reply-To: <40AD74AE.5000508@ocsny.com> References: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> <40AD74AE.5000508@ocsny.com> Message-ID: On May 20, 2004, at 11:17 PM, Mikel King wrote: > what about sfs? Ahh- San File System- Mikel- can you explain what would be necessary to do a common implimentation? Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 04:46:19 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 04:46:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Protocol List - Lab Enviornment In-Reply-To: <40AD74AE.5000508@ocsny.com> References: <40ABECC2.3000300@nomadlogic.org> <40AD74AE.5000508@ocsny.com> Message-ID: -- current updated list as of: Tue May 25 04:45:29 EDT 2004 File Protocol Possibility List: Open Standards: NFS ? NFSv4(seems pretty scarry from what i heard at the BSDCAN BOF ) WebDAV ? AFS (Andrew File System, ? SFS (San File System ) Vendor Derived: SMB (Samba, Windows) AFP (Apple File Protocol, over TCP/IP, not to be confused with AFS, ) AFP over AppleTalk (can happen on *nix and apple rigs) -- From ike Tue May 25 05:26:15 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:26:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <200405192101.41226.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <20BC4BCA-AA07-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <200405201553.04865.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <4BDF196F-AA98-11D8-83A7-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <92036D3C-AE2D-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Word All, After catching up on this thread, On May 20, 2004, at 4:00 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Agree. . .If a useful comparison is going to be made, there needs to > be ONE variable. > > If we are testing network protocols, then let's get several boxes with > the same BSD on each. I'm in agreement with ONE variable as well. BUT- what about the AFP stuff, to be feature/spec fair, I'd like this protocol to warrant a ppc box and run an Apple-derived OS and AFP implementation, so this does mix things up a bit... (unless we run ALL the protocols on PPC/Darwin/OSX machines- yikes!) I only bring this up because the threads that started this whole thing, dove madly into NFS vs. AFP... At this moment, the list of protocols is over here: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2004-May/001414.html Any ideas for resolution on this? > > We can separate into multiple BSD's, but I think we'd have to make it > a separate night.. .rebuild the boxes, do the documented or instructed > tweaks. One BSD on each, *BSD to be decided by what hardware we end up using (or by drawing straws if it comes down to it). Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 05:31:14 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:31:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40AD48DB.4040103@travelersdiary.com> References: <40AD48DB.4040103@travelersdiary.com> Message-ID: <440701F8-AE2E-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Wordup Josh, All, On May 20, 2004, at 8:10 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: > I'd be interested in seeing ease of use, performance and usability and > interoperability of various FOSS VPN solutions. > > Would that interest anyone else? > > Josh Yes- but how about this- can you perform this evaluation by participating in the testing, and writing it up independently? i.e. I got this idea- that anyone can jump into this project to focus on more specific evaluation, on top of what we collectively are narrowing down to a common goal and testing enviornment. (i.e. I'm thinking I'm definately going to be paying mad attention to how my mac deals with some of these protocols not only from a performance and feature factor, but also based on how simple it was to use... so perhaps even I could do a separate write up on that... Whaddya' think? Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 05:40:06 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:40:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Lab environment In-Reply-To: <40AD6750.6070103@upan.org> References: <46C7F895-A9E1-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <053C57D7-AA08-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <05965228-AA09-11D8-BEAE-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <2DB0C751-AA0A-11D8-8E83-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40ACAAF4.9060106@ocsny.com> <40ACC1AF.8030007@nomadlogic.org> <40ACBC56.1040902@ocsny.com> <40ACCC2D.6070603@nomadlogic.org> <40AD6750.6070103@upan.org> Message-ID: <81305F82-AE2F-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Mikel: On May 20, 2004, at 10:20 PM, Mikel King wrote: > Well I had thought of that as well, and thought it might be nice to do > side by side comparisons and keep the hardware as similar as possible. > I will attempt aquiring the workstations next week when I visit said > client. I think they would make a good test bed because they are > absolutely identical down to the screws...;-) Well ok some harddisks > have changed over the years but vid, mlb, nic ram cpu their identical. > they are pII450's as I recall. Would MAC G3 be close to that in > performance, because I have one of those as well. Sorry only running @ > 100bt. But I think that would be representative of most sites, well > the average ones anyway. I LOVE this. slow rigs == molasses (and fun to watch) results. Noteworthy though, with regard to the Mac, there is a definate line which is drawn for contemporary Darwin/OSX/OSXServer installs, and a PPC machine which would be comparable to a pII450 I don't believe will run Darwin/OSX... which brings me back to this thought: On May 25, 2004, at 5:26 AM, Isaac Levy wrote: > I only bring this up because the threads that started this whole > thing, dove madly into NFS vs. AFP... > > At this moment, the list of protocols is over here: > http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2004-May/001414.html Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 05:45:11 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 05:45:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <1AB2A0B2-ADFC-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> <40B2CAD0.6030405@nomadlogic.org> <1AB2A0B2-ADFC-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <36E73DD8-AE30-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi All, On May 24, 2004, at 11:32 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: >>> Since most of the initial testing wont require any real b/w it will >>> not be a serious problem. once the machines are aquired and setup >>> then we will define the experiments, and grant remote access. >> >> >> yea i totally agree! >> > > Onsite is probably a better deal, since we can pull others around, and > make it a collective learning experience, IMO. I'm gonna have to say I got into this in the first place to be able to physically meet as a team and pull something off- that's almost worth more to me in learning/sharing than the actual results of the testing IMHO (all the subtle stuff...) Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 06:00:47 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:00:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> Message-ID: <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Word, On May 24, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote: > > Don't forget fugu which uses sftp and scp. It does not support > recursive deletion or directory download though. > > http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/ + 1 for Fugu and sftp gui, totally great Mac OSX GUI for sftp. but for plain ol' FTP, (eeeek!): Dedicated Client Software: The Mac Finder: all drag-n-drop n' such... From the finder, Controll-K, and then enter the ftp server url... (noteworthy, this works great across an SSH tunnel for when you actually encounter some FTP resource in the wild...) You can also flip the passive/active switch in the system preferences, Network Pane, in the 'Proxies' tab for a given interface. An old Mac classic that lives on: http://fetchsoftworks.com/ And another classic that lives on: http://www.panic.com/transmit/ -- Seems like all GUI FTP clients for a mac cost nowadays, but nobody yells about that since ftp is free from the shell and the finder... Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 06:08:46 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:08:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DNS hosting control panel software In-Reply-To: <33936358b5e0534c94e9cf8f3e182287@romero3000.com> References: <33936358b5e0534c94e9cf8f3e182287@romero3000.com> Message-ID: <8290F481-AE33-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Jeronimo, On May 25, 2004, at 3:36 AM, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > Does anyone know of a good DNS hosting control panel software. Need to > give clients access to control panel in order to let them edit their > own > dns zones. Actually, no. I've worked with and written modules for providing a web interface to clients DNS zone files, but as they were customized to our needs, not portable or available. With that, also, I've seen lots of different ways that DNS zone files are setup in various secured ways for client editing via a web interface, but I can't say I've been completely pleased with any given implementation yet, though I have ideas for how I'd do it... (security level:paranoid ) With that, I'd really suggest just whipping out your scripting language of choice, bash does nicely, sed and awk make quick work of parsing the files, and python is really excellent for text processing as well... Then bust out some html frontend, and your in business. > Also has anyone heard of "Positive Software Corporation". > http://www.psoft.net Vaugely heard of them due their 'Linux FreeVPS' system (User Mode Linux packaged frontend)- but looks like they could have such a product for DNS somewhere? Rocket- .ike From sunny-ml Tue May 25 06:59:36 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:59:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DNS hosting control panel software In-Reply-To: <33936358b5e0534c94e9cf8f3e182287@romero3000.com> References: <33936358b5e0534c94e9cf8f3e182287@romero3000.com> Message-ID: <200405250659.36250.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Tuesday 25 May 2004 03:36 am, Jeronimo Romero wrote: > Does anyone know of a good DNS hosting control panel software. Need to > give clients access to control panel in order to let them edit their own > dns zones. > > Also has anyone heard of "Positive Software Corporation". > http://www.psoft.net freshmeat.net is your friend. And from the simple query of "dns web" I was able to find the following relevant hits http://www.xname.org/ http://mywebdns.sourceforge.net/ http://bulldog.tzo.org/zoneadm/zoneadm.html http://osuosl.org/maintain/ http://www.inter7.com/dnsadmin.html Sunny Dubey From pete Tue May 25 10:45:02 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:45:02 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <36E73DD8-AE30-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> <40B2CAD0.6030405@nomadlogic.org> <1AB2A0B2-ADFC-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <36E73DD8-AE30-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40B35BEE.5020308@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > On May 24, 2004, at 11:32 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >>>> Since most of the initial testing wont require any real b/w it will >>>> not be a serious problem. once the machines are aquired and setup >>>> then we will define the experiments, and grant remote access. >>> >>> >>> >>> yea i totally agree! >>> >> >> Onsite is probably a better deal, since we can pull others around, >> and make it a collective learning experience, IMO. > > > I'm gonna have to say I got into this in the first place to be able to > physically meet as a team and pull something off- that's almost worth > more to me in learning/sharing than the actual results of the testing > IMHO (all the subtle stuff...) > > Rocket- > .ike > shoot i kinda agree with everyone here...maybe i should clarify. i think the initial setup should be a install/hack fest type thing. we can set these boxen up and also have folks interested/new to bsd bring a machine with them and we all, as a user-group, can help them out. or people can just come by and hang out etc... altho, once we get everything installed and running smoothly...i think it may be beneficial to have some organization as to who is using the lab and when. i figure with the testing, most of it can happen remotely from the servers/workstations (assuming that each server has 2 nic's, one for internet one for a the lab LAN). this way we do not have to NOC to run/develop our tests, people can pretty much get togther anywhere to access the lab. what do you all think, is this lab even going to be a long term setup? are we going to have multiple tests running on this setup? if this works i think we would have a pretty nice setup... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Tue May 25 10:46:57 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:46:57 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40B35C61.8050609@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > > > -- > Seems like all GUI FTP clients for a mac cost nowadays, but nobody > yells about that since ftp is free from the shell and the finder... > hey ike, i have a question about using ftp in the finder, are you able to do passive-mode transfers from the finder? just curious... -p > Rocket- > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From ycui Mon May 24 15:08:20 2004 From: ycui (Paul Cui) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:08:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200405241508.20786.ycui@bloomberg.com> don't forget to check your power supply. I had a machine used to reboot itself for no obvious reason.. I checked everything except the power supply. and finally, a co-worker told me to check power supply. and that was the problem. -Paul On Monday 24 May 2004 10:21 am, Kit Halsted wrote: > Hey, NYCBUG folks: > > I'm having some problems with one of my servers & I'm running out of > ideas on how to fix it. It's an Athlon 1.8GHz box running OpenBSD 3.3 > & it crashes every few days. Lately, it doesn't want to come back up. > Nothing in the logs & it doesn't seem to be crashing under load, just > losing power once in a while for no apparent reason. It was happening > around 6:30-7:00 AM at first, but it died some time after 6:00 PM & > before 1:30 AM yesterday. Nothing in the logs seems to point to > hardware, losing power seems to point to the power supply, but it's > still happening with a brand new 480W Antec PS... > > Basically, all I can think to do is replace the motherboard at this > point. I'm wondering: > > 1. if anyone can think of anything else that might be responsible for > these problems & > > 2. if anybody can suggest a good place in the city to pick up a new > Socket-A mobo. > > Thanks, > -Kit > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From bschonhorst Tue May 25 09:51:46 2004 From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:51:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCLAB? In-Reply-To: <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> References: <40B22DA8.4070003@ocsny.com> <40B23672.2040705@nomadlogic.org> <40B237B3.6010809@ocsny.com> <40B28DB2.9000909@travelersdiary.com> <929BCFBE-ADE0-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> <40B2A9CF.9020606@ocsny.com> Message-ID: On May 24, 2004, at 10:05 PM, Mikel King wrote: > G.Rosamond wrote: > >> >> On May 24, 2004, at 8:05 PM, Josh McCormack wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Mikel King wrote: >>> >>>> Pete Wright wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mikel King wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Have we decided on the number of machines et cettera? I would >>>>>> like to know before I ask the client if I could have them before >>>>>> they hit the dumpster or get donated or loaned elsewhere. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> hrm....i think at a minimum we would need two. altho ideally one >>>>> for each OS that we are going to test would be best right? so we >>>>> have: >>>>> >>>>> FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD >>>>> these seem for sure right? did we make a decision yet regarding >>>>> Darwin/Linux/others? >>>>> >>>>> -pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> A win2k3 box, and some sort of MAC OS 10.x >>>> Therefore I shall see what I can do about the 4 intel based boxes >>> >>> >>> Was it decided what tests would be done? >>> >> >> I'm a bit confused myself Josh. I think some people are focused on >> network protocols, which was the initial theme. . . >> >>> If there will be time in addition to whatever other tests you want >>> to run, I'd like to do compare FOSS VPN options on different >>> platforms and how they interact. >>> >> >> I think that would be a great thing to test in a lab format. But >> it's probably better to do these tests separately. The KISS >> principle, as Peter stated, should reign supreme. >> >>> When I asked about it before there was one person interested, who >>> didn't have time. If this is way too boring for everyone >>> (understandable!), if your client has extra junkers destined for the >>> dumpster I'd like to grab a couple, if I could, to try it out on my >>> own. >>> >>> Josh >> >> >> Let's do it in a group. I'd like to be part of these lab sessions >> too. . .and I'm sure others would too. >> >> We need to clarify time, place, date, and the two people responsible >> for the base setup. >> >> And before that, there needs to be some consensus on the test >> parameters. >> >> g >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > All I am trying to do is get us a lab to work in for right now, and to > possibly get the base systems completed as quickly as possible so that > we can then take application for lab time...sounds too much like > college but I am certain that we would all agee this this will require > some sort of structure if we are to pull it off. I made the initial > request to my client for the loaner boxes. And I am working on some > space here at OCS for hosting them. Since most of the initial testing > wont require any real b/w it will not be a serious problem. once the > machines are aquired and setup then we will define the experiments, > and grant remote access. > > No sense having to crowd around the machines to get the job done > right. Of course if you are buying, the pizza and beer then I'm > game...;-) > > I think that now would be the time to decide which OSes/rev we are > going to use a test platforms. I will supply and setup Win2k3 and > fBSD5.x, but will definately need help with nBSD and oBSD, as well as > any MAC stuff should we get lucky enough to find a matched class of > machine. > Depending on what you determine to be 'matched class', I have a spare G4 tower (450 MHz) that could be used for testing purposes. I can load up 10.2 or 10.3 and drop in up to a Gig of RAM... -Brad -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040525/d904e373/attachment.bin From george Tue May 25 09:51:55 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:51:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20040525135155.GA16146@trot.local> Thanks all. She was able to use netscape to drop the directories into a public incoming dir. We lost the (minor) directory structure, but all the file got in place. Now to pick the software she likes and get it setup for next time. Is there something like vnc for mac? // George On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 06:00:47AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > >but for plain ol' FTP, (eeeek!): > >Dedicated Client Software: >The Mac Finder: >all drag-n-drop n' such... >From the finder, Controll-K, and then enter the ftp server url... >(noteworthy, this works great across an SSH tunnel for when you >actually encounter some FTP resource in the wild...) >You can also flip the passive/active switch in the system preferences, >Network Pane, in the 'Proxies' tab for a given interface. > -- George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7 9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631 From pete Tue May 25 10:57:14 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:57:14 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <20040525135155.GA16146@trot.local> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <20040525135155.GA16146@trot.local> Message-ID: <40B35ECA.7080506@nomadlogic.org> George Georgalis wrote: > >Now to pick the software she likes and get it setup for next time. >Is there something like vnc for mac? > > yes...vnc for mac osx ;^) if you search on macupdate.com for vnc their should be a couple hits. i know the "classic" vnc implementation for mac was java based, not sure if that's true with OSX tho... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From danielk Tue May 25 10:01:18 2004 From: danielk (Daniel Krook) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:01:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <20040525135155.GA16146@trot.local> Message-ID: > Is there something like vnc for mac? These work pretty well for me. Client: Chicken of the VNC http://sourceforge.net/projects/cotvnc/ Server: Share My Desktop http://www.bombich.com/software/smd.html Daniel Krook, Application Developer WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com 1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604 Personal: http://info.krook.org/ Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=C-0M7P897 From george Tue May 25 13:39:17 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DN EZine Message-ID: <7246E9B2-AE72-11D8-89F6-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Phew. . .the May issue is online. . . Lots about BSDCan. . . http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200405/ You may recognize some of the ugly faces. . . g From ike Tue May 25 14:05:16 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:05:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <40B35C61.8050609@nomadlogic.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40B35C61.8050609@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <1355F06D-AE76-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Pete, On May 25, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Pete Wright wrote: >> Seems like all GUI FTP clients for a mac cost nowadays, but nobody >> yells about that since ftp is free from the shell and the finder... >> > > hey ike, > i have a question about using ftp in the finder, are you able to do > passive-mode transfers from the finder? just curious... > -p I'm absolutely sure- but one thing, I don't have any FTP running anywhere to test it today- and haven't done it since back in the 10.1 days... but I'm really sure. On May 25, 2004, at 6:00 AM, Isaac Levy wrote: > You can also flip the passive/active switch in the system preferences, > Network Pane, in the 'Proxies' tab for a given interface. Kindof burried switch IMHO. Rocket- .ike From ike Tue May 25 14:06:31 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:06:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] DNS hosting control panel software In-Reply-To: <200405250659.36250.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <33936358b5e0534c94e9cf8f3e182287@romero3000.com> <200405250659.36250.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <402805AE-AE76-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Thanks Sunny! On May 25, 2004, at 6:59 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > freshmeat.net is your friend. And from the simple query of "dns web" > I was > able to find the following relevant hits > > http://www.xname.org/ > http://mywebdns.sourceforge.net/ > http://bulldog.tzo.org/zoneadm/zoneadm.html > http://osuosl.org/maintain/ > http://www.inter7.com/dnsadmin.html > > Sunny Dubey Learn something new every day, and today I get to learn 5 things :) Rocket- .ike From pete Tue May 25 15:11:16 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:11:16 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <1355F06D-AE76-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> <40B1F651.8040106@nomadlogic.org> <47C58C7F-AD86-11D8-8497-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> <7421C5C2-AD98-11D8-BE3A-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> <64ECBF36-AE32-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> <40B35C61.8050609@nomadlogic.org> <1355F06D-AE76-11D8-ABF7-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <40B39A54.50403@nomadlogic.org> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Pete, > > On May 25, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > >>> Seems like all GUI FTP clients for a mac cost nowadays, but nobody >>> yells about that since ftp is free from the shell and the finder... >>> >> >> hey ike, >> i have a question about using ftp in the finder, are you able to >> do passive-mode transfers from the finder? just curious... >> -p > > > I'm absolutely sure- but one thing, I don't have any FTP running > anywhere to test it today- and haven't done it since back in the 10.1 > days... but I'm really sure. cool...for some odd reason i assumed it didn't do passive transfers. i'll check it out today. cheers -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From pete Tue May 25 15:17:57 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:17:57 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Benchmark suites Message-ID: <40B39BE5.8050209@nomadlogic.org> hey all, so i searched for benchmark suites on freshmeat.net and found a couple suites that look promising. i've used I/Ozone before, havn't used bonnie++ tho. http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ http://www.iozone.org/ I/O zone has documentation relating to how it has been used to test NFSv3. It also builds on Free/Open/NetBSD. No advertised Darwin support tho. Does anyone have any opinions about these apps? Maybe we can use them as a reference? -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From george Tue May 25 21:51:28 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:51:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Slashdot Message-ID: <342D0E16-AEB7-11D8-B3B0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Well, my post on DN and BSDCan made the BSD Section of Slashdot: http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/26/ 0029218&mode=thread&tid=122&tid=126&tid=172&tid=185&tid=190 Woah. . .four posts and only three are trolls. g From dan Tue May 25 22:14:34 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:14:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Slashdot In-Reply-To: <342D0E16-AEB7-11D8-B3B0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <40B3C54A.8983.74AF092@localhost> On 25 May 2004 at 21:51, G.Rosamond wrote: > Well, my post on DN and BSDCan made the BSD Section of Slashdot: > > http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/26/ > 0029218&mode=thread&tid=122&tid=126&tid=172&tid=185&tid=190 Now, if only there was a link to BSDCan in there.... -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From george Tue May 25 22:16:40 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:16:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Slashdot In-Reply-To: <40B3C54A.8983.74AF092@localhost> References: <40B3C54A.8983.74AF092@localhost> Message-ID: On May 25, 2004, at 10:14 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > On 25 May 2004 at 21:51, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> Well, my post on DN and BSDCan made the BSD Section of Slashdot: >> >> http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/26/ >> 0029218&mode=thread&tid=122&tid=126&tid=172&tid=185&tid=190 > > Now, if only there was a link to BSDCan in there.... > -- > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ > > Oops. . .i had to put in so many links. . .I lost track. sorry Dan. . .I thought I flattered you enough with "the brain behind". . . g From dan Tue May 25 22:18:41 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:18:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Slashdot In-Reply-To: References: <40B3C54A.8983.74AF092@localhost> Message-ID: <40B3C641.20523.74EB5D3@localhost> On 25 May 2004 at 22:16, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 25, 2004, at 10:14 PM, Dan Langille wrote: > > > On 25 May 2004 at 21:51, G.Rosamond wrote: > > > >> Well, my post on DN and BSDCan made the BSD Section of Slashdot: > >> > >> http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/26/ > >> 0029218&mode=thread&tid=122&tid=126&tid=172&tid=185&tid=190 > > > > Now, if only there was a link to BSDCan in there.... > > -- > > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > > BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ > > > > > > Oops. . .i had to put in so many links. . .I lost track. > > sorry Dan. . .I thought I flattered you enough with "the brain > behind". . . I've had my behind referred to as many things, but never a brain. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From kit Wed May 26 12:50:51 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:50:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ftp client.... In-Reply-To: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> References: <20040524031316.GK18600@trot.local> Message-ID: Don't know anything about it, but today's MacInTouch mentions a Mac FTP app I've never heard of before: >David Kocher's Cyberduck 2.3 is an open source FTP and SFTP browser >that offers uploads and downloads of files and directories, file >deletion and renaming, checking and changing of permissions, >Rendezvous support, and more. This release adds external editor >support (SubEthaEdit, BBEdit, TextWrangler, Tex-Edit Plus), >resumable downloads for SFTP, resumable uploads for SFTP and FTP, >rearrangement of files on the host by drag-and-drop, and other >changes. Cyberduck is free for Mac OS X 10.3. http://cyberduck.ch/ HTH, -Kit At 11:13 PM -0400 5/23/04, George Georgalis wrote: >Thought the nycbug folks might know this as well as anyone... I'm >looking for an ftp client that runs on Mac, needs be GUI, idiot proof >and have ability to do recursive put on a bsd-ftpd directory with mode >333. Any ideas? > >// George -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From robert Wed May 26 12:51:50 2004 From: robert (robert at packetpolice.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Perl classes Message-ID: <27680.207.127.241.2.1085590310.squirrel@mail.packetpolice.com> My company has agreed to pop for Perl training. Woo-hoo! Can anyone recommend classes in the evening in the city? Cheers, Robert Duncan From sunny-ml Wed May 26 13:46:18 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:46:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Perl classes In-Reply-To: <27680.207.127.241.2.1085590310.squirrel@mail.packetpolice.com> References: <27680.207.127.241.2.1085590310.squirrel@mail.packetpolice.com> Message-ID: <200405261346.07528.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> On Wednesday 26 May 2004 12:51 pm, robert at packetpolice.com wrote: > My company has agreed to pop for Perl training. Woo-hoo! Can anyone > recommend classes in the evening in the city? spend the money on some OReilly perl books ... join the billions of perl mailing lists, IRC channels, and new groups ... it sure beats going to some over-priced classes Sunny Dubey <-- few weeks into purl with a bunch of books From bob Wed May 26 13:52:22 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:52:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Perl classes In-Reply-To: <200405261346.07528.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <27680.207.127.241.2.1085590310.squirrel@mail.packetpolice.com> <200405261346.07528.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <708A1052-AF3D-11D8-9DC7-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 26, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > On Wednesday 26 May 2004 12:51 pm, robert at packetpolice.com wrote: >> My company has agreed to pop for Perl training. Woo-hoo! Can anyone >> recommend classes in the evening in the city? > > spend the money on some OReilly perl books ... join the billions of > perl > mailing lists, IRC channels, and new groups ... it sure beats going to > some > over-priced classes Well you more or less need the books whether or not you take the class. It's not his money, and I doubt they're going to pay him extra to learn Perl on his own. He should take the class. The only thing better than a class is having someone tutor/mentor him personally.. a perl guru on-site is probably more expensive than a class. -bob From jesse Wed May 26 19:21:55 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:21:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A43596F-AF6B-11D8-8706-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On May 24, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Kit Halsted wrote: > Thanks, Jim. Heat was one of the first things to occur to me, & one > thing I did last time I was there was cleaning the filter on the > server room AC. (Dropped ambient temp by about 15 degrees! That filter > was nasty...) Still, it never made sense to me that heat problems > would happen when the box was close to idle; I would expect crashes at > peak times rather than at 7:00 AM when the office is empty & no one's > hitting the web db... > > -Kit > hmm... maybe it wants coffee. Are the PCI cards sitting tightly in the sockets? Is there someone who doesn't like you who leaves around that time? Someone who touches the power cord at that time, like by walking on it? Regarding what Jim suggests, check the BIOS and see if it has a thermal panic feature. From kit Wed May 26 19:42:25 2004 From: kit (Kit Halsted) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) Message-ID: At 7:21 PM -0400 5/26/04, Jesse Callaway wrote: >On May 24, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Kit Halsted wrote: > >>Thanks, Jim. Heat was one of the first things to occur to me, & one >>thing I did last time I was there was cleaning the filter on the >>server room AC. (Dropped ambient temp by about 15 degrees! That >>filter was nasty...) Still, it never made sense to me that heat >>problems would happen when the box was close to idle; I would >>expect crashes at peak times rather than at 7:00 AM when the office >>is empty & no one's hitting the web db... >> >>-Kit >> > >hmm... maybe it wants coffee. No, that I'm sure of! Same client, a year or 2 back, I get a call about a PowerBook not working: turns out it took about half a grande latte in the keyboard. Nice piece of design, that keyboard: it kept the liquid away from the important bits. >Are the PCI cards sitting tightly in the sockets? Yep. >Is there someone who doesn't like you who leaves around that time? One of the 1st things I thought of, being a bit on the paranoid side, but no. The office is empty when the machine goes down. >Someone who touches the power cord at that time, like by walking on it? No one. >Regarding what Jim suggests, check the BIOS and see if it has a >thermal panic feature. I have to look all through the new BIOS when I can get back there, but that could be it. Thanks, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus From george Wed May 26 20:27:55 2004 From: george (George Georgalis) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:27:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Perl classes In-Reply-To: <708A1052-AF3D-11D8-9DC7-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <27680.207.127.241.2.1085590310.squirrel@mail.packetpolice.com> <200405261346.07528.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> <708A1052-AF3D-11D8-9DC7-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <20040527002755.GB5738@trot.local> On Wed, May 26, 2004 at 01:52:22PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >On May 26, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > >>On Wednesday 26 May 2004 12:51 pm, robert at packetpolice.com wrote: >>>My company has agreed to pop for Perl training. Woo-hoo! Can anyone >>>recommend classes in the evening in the city? >> >>spend the money on some OReilly perl books ... join the billions of >>perl >>mailing lists, IRC channels, and new groups ... it sure beats going to >>some >>over-priced classes > >Well you more or less need the books whether or not you take the class. > It's not his money, and I doubt they're going to pay him extra to >learn Perl on his own. He should take the class. The only thing >better than a class is having someone tutor/mentor him personally.. a >perl guru on-site is probably more expensive than a class. > Contact Josh Rabinowitz, "Joshr Perl Training NYC" Josh Rabinowitz http://joshr.com/ You can see him present Perl 6 and Parrot at the next NYSA meeting, Wednesday, June 9th, 2004 http://www.nysa.org/meetings.html // George -- George Georgalis, Architect and administrator, Linux services. IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org Key fingerprint = 5415 2738 61CF 6AE1 E9A7 9EF0 0186 503B 9831 1631 From mikel.king Wed May 26 21:19:02 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:19:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] silly snarf tricks Message-ID: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> A while back I was playing around with snarf which is a command line utility for pulling web content...Ok so no real big deal there FreeBSD has fetch which does the same thing. However snarf is cool in that you can drop a switch that tells it to return a precompiled HTTP_USER_AGENT. Now aside from messing with my web developers heads a bit, cause I modified the code to return a (Mozilla 5; on a Banana Jr 2000...) and lately I've changed it to match my FreeBSD 5.1 install on my laptop. Then I scripted it in a cron job to run once a minute and grab 5 pages from our company website. OK this really screwed with the web stats...but it was harmless fun. I mean we now get 3800 hits per day from a machine pretending to be Mozilla 1.6 on FreeBSD 5.1. I guess what I am wondering is if anyone can devise a praticle use for this? I did use it to scriptout a daily pull of the intelligent updater from Symantec, and place it into my companies ftp server. But that's really nothing magical... ideas? -- Cheers, m! From mikel.king Wed May 26 21:25:30 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:25:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40B5438A.2030808@ocsny.com> Kit Halsted wrote: > At 7:21 PM -0400 5/26/04, Jesse Callaway wrote: > >> On May 24, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Kit Halsted wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Jim. Heat was one of the first things to occur to me, & one >>> thing I did last time I was there was cleaning the filter on the >>> server room AC. (Dropped ambient temp by about 15 degrees! That >>> filter was nasty...) Still, it never made sense to me that heat >>> problems would happen when the box was close to idle; I would expect >>> crashes at peak times rather than at 7:00 AM when the office is >>> empty & no one's hitting the web db... >>> >>> -Kit >>> >> >> hmm... maybe it wants coffee. > > > No, that I'm sure of! Same client, a year or 2 back, I get a call > about a PowerBook not working: turns out it took about half a grande > latte in the keyboard. Nice piece of design, that keyboard: it kept > the liquid away from the important bits. > >> Are the PCI cards sitting tightly in the sockets? > > > Yep. > >> Is there someone who doesn't like you who leaves around that time? > > > One of the 1st things I thought of, being a bit on the paranoid side, > but no. The office is empty when the machine goes down. > >> Someone who touches the power cord at that time, like by walking on it? > > > No one. > >> Regarding what Jim suggests, check the BIOS and see if it has a >> thermal panic feature. > > > I have to look all through the new BIOS when I can get back there, but > that could be it. > > Thanks, > -Kit Has the building done any electrical changes, or construction recently? I few years ago I had a client that their servers would good off line sporadically As it turned out the on other side of the wall behind the servers; were new high power lines for the elevator systems that the building recently installed. The EMI fields generated threw the room into a frenzy, caused the UPSes to trippout and well all sorts of strange phenomenon. The client thought that it was a poldergiest (sp?). Another client had a faulty tape drive and whenever the backup launched the server would upend. -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From bob Wed May 26 21:43:25 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:43:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] silly snarf tricks In-Reply-To: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> References: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <3ECC404A-AF7F-11D8-9896-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On May 26, 2004, at 9:19 PM, Mikel King wrote: > A while back I was playing around with snarf which is a command > line utility for pulling web content...Ok so no real big deal there > FreeBSD has fetch which does the same thing. However snarf is cool in > that you can drop a switch that tells it to return a precompiled > HTTP_USER_AGENT. > > Now aside from messing with my web developers heads a bit, cause I > modified the code to return a (Mozilla 5; on a Banana Jr 2000...) and > lately I've changed it to match my FreeBSD 5.1 install on my laptop. > Then I scripted it in a cron job to run once a minute and grab 5 pages > from our company website. OK this really screwed with the web > stats...but it was harmless fun. I mean we now get 3800 hits per day > from a machine pretending to be Mozilla 1.6 on FreeBSD 5.1. > > I guess what I am wondering is if anyone can devise a praticle use > for this? > > I did use it to scriptout a daily pull of the intelligent updater > from Symantec, and place it into my companies ftp server. But that's > really nothing magical... > > ideas? curl (installed by default on OS X) and GNU Wget (pretty common with Linux) also let you set your User-Agent.. surprisingly enough, they actually take the same --user-agent flag to do it. There aren't really any practical uses for it, except to fetch strange URLs that send different content or authorize based upon UA, and of course stat jacking. -bob From pete Wed May 26 23:18:15 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:18:15 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] silly snarf tricks In-Reply-To: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> References: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <40B55DF7.4090205@nomadlogic.org> Mikel King wrote: > A while back I was playing around with snarf which is a command > line utility for pulling web content...Ok so no real big deal there > FreeBSD has fetch which does the same thing. However snarf is cool in > that you can drop a switch that tells it to return a precompiled > HTTP_USER_AGENT. > > Now aside from messing with my web developers heads a bit, cause I > modified the code to return a (Mozilla 5; on a Banana Jr 2000...) and > lately I've changed it to match my FreeBSD 5.1 install on my laptop. > Then I scripted it in a cron job to run once a minute and grab 5 pages > from our company website. OK this really screwed with the web > stats...but it was harmless fun. I mean we now get 3800 hits per day > from a machine pretending to be Mozilla 1.6 on FreeBSD 5.1. > > I guess what I am wondering is if anyone can devise a praticle use > for this? > > I did use it to scriptout a daily pull of the intelligent updater > from Symantec, and place it into my companies ftp server. But that's > really nothing magical... > hey who said messing with web devs was not a practicle use ;) seriously tho, i would imagine that this was developed to help get past buggy sites that only allow IE/NT to access files. do you think it would allow you grab files from windows update? prolly not tho b/c of all the ActiveX scripts etc... -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From mikel.king Wed May 26 22:22:28 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:22:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] silly snarf tricks In-Reply-To: <40B55DF7.4090205@nomadlogic.org> References: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> <40B55DF7.4090205@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40B550E4.8050906@ocsny.com> Pete Wright wrote: > Mikel King wrote: > >> A while back I was playing around with snarf which is a command >> line utility for pulling web content...Ok so no real big deal there >> FreeBSD has fetch which does the same thing. However snarf is cool in >> that you can drop a switch that tells it to return a precompiled >> HTTP_USER_AGENT. >> >> Now aside from messing with my web developers heads a bit, cause I >> modified the code to return a (Mozilla 5; on a Banana Jr 2000...) and >> lately I've changed it to match my FreeBSD 5.1 install on my laptop. >> Then I scripted it in a cron job to run once a minute and grab 5 >> pages from our company website. OK this really screwed with the web >> stats...but it was harmless fun. I mean we now get 3800 hits per day >> from a machine pretending to be Mozilla 1.6 on FreeBSD 5.1. >> >> I guess what I am wondering is if anyone can devise a praticle use >> for this? >> >> I did use it to scriptout a daily pull of the intelligent updater >> from Symantec, and place it into my companies ftp server. But that's >> really nothing magical... >> > hey who said messing with web devs was not a practicle use ;) > seriously tho, i would imagine that this was developed to help get > past buggy sites that only allow IE/NT to access files. do you think > it would allow you grab files from windows update? prolly not tho b/c > of all the ActiveX scripts etc... > > -p > I don't know, I mean with symantec thingie had to go through a couple of awk stages before I could grab the right file, but it's pretty reliable...like ronco...set it and foget it....;-) sure would be nice to figure out a way around the ms updates thingie...hmmm ok the wheels are turning... -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From bsd Thu May 27 00:14:56 2004 From: bsd (Kevin Reiter) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 00:14:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] silly snarf tricks References: <40B54206.8040802@ocsny.com> <40B55DF7.4090205@nomadlogic.org> <40B550E4.8050906@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <000601c443a1$2b830920$0800a8c0@hephaestus> > > hey who said messing with web devs was not a practicle use ;) > > seriously tho, i would imagine that this was developed to help get > > past buggy sites that only allow IE/NT to access files. do you think > > it would allow you grab files from windows update? prolly not tho b/c > > of all the ActiveX scripts etc... Actually, all the Winblows Update files are on their public FTP server - you just have to know which filenames they are to grab them. I think there's a database somewhere (that's also public) that lists the filename with the KB# and soforth, so if you knew which ones you needed, no prob. ...then again, FTP isn't HTTP... -just my half a nickel... -Kevin --------- Yes, I know, I'm writing this from MSOE. Once someone ports LinkSys PCMCIA wireless 54G drivers for Linux/FreeBSD, please let me know. --------- From George Thu May 27 10:11:37 2004 From: George (G. Rosamond) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help!!! (server problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54926.68.237.206.112.1085667097.squirrel@mail.sddi.net> A wise person once said. . . Kit Halsted > At 7:21 PM -0400 5/26/04, Jesse Callaway wrote: >>On May 24, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Kit Halsted wrote: >> >>>Thanks, Jim. Heat was one of the first things to occur to me, & one >>>thing I did last time I was there was cleaning the filter on the >>>server room AC. (Dropped ambient temp by about 15 degrees! That >>>filter was nasty...) Still, it never made sense to me that heat >>>problems would happen when the box was close to idle; I would >>>expect crashes at peak times rather than at 7:00 AM when the office >>>is empty & no one's hitting the web db... >>> >>>-Kit >>> >> >>hmm... maybe it wants coffee. > > No, that I'm sure of! Same client, a year or 2 back, I get a call > about a PowerBook not working: turns out it took about half a grande > latte in the keyboard. Nice piece of design, that keyboard: it kept > the liquid away from the important bits. Ike has some insight about Dos Equis and PowerBooks. . . >>Regarding what Jim suggests, check the BIOS and see if it has a >>thermal panic feature. > > I have to look all through the new BIOS when I can get back there, but > that could be it. I think it's easy to forget the importance of cooling and computers. That is one of the threshholds of speed, right? I've also spent a lot of time dealing with heat issues that weren't apparent. Some years back, I was at a firm with a number of Florida offices. I was working on a Cisco router remotely as the WAN connection was acting very flaky. One thought was that the router had been compromised. When I had a consultant go onsite he was hit by a blast of heat when he entered the server room. I had lost an argument with upper management to spend $6k on decent HVAC in the room not too long before that. Needless to say, the hardware and labor costs hit that in one incident. g From pete Thu May 27 13:17:41 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:17:41 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Re: [Bacula-users] Encrypting at bacula-fd] Message-ID: <40B622B5.3020304@nomadlogic.org> This is from the bacula list, i know George and Ike are probably interested in this. -pete -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Kern Sibbald Subject: Re: [Bacula-users] Encrypting at bacula-fd Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:49:19 +0200 Size: 4429 Url: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040527/1d0a5cf1/attachment.mht From dan Thu May 27 12:20:42 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:20:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Re: [Bacula-users] Encrypting at bacula-fd] In-Reply-To: <40B622B5.3020304@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40B5DD1A.28964.F781CBA@localhost> On 27 May 2004 at 12:17, Pete Wright wrote: > This is from the bacula list, i know George and Ike are probably > interested in this. I say it there, it turns up here... Is there no privacy in this world? ;) -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From pete Thu May 27 13:33:02 2004 From: pete (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 12:33:02 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Re: [Bacula-users] Encrypting at bacula-fd] In-Reply-To: <40B5DD1A.28964.F781CBA@localhost> References: <40B5DD1A.28964.F781CBA@localhost> Message-ID: <40B6264E.6090605@nomadlogic.org> Dan Langille wrote: >On 27 May 2004 at 12:17, Pete Wright wrote: > > > >>This is from the bacula list, i know George and Ike are probably >>interested in this. >> >> > >I say it there, it turns up here... > >Is there no privacy in this world? ;) > > not in the states ;) -p -- ~~~oO00Oo~~~ Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete From chrisc Thu May 27 18:52:48 2004 From: chrisc (Chris Coleman) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 17:52:48 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt Message-ID: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> Did you guys see the new t-shirt? http://www.bsdmall.com/fourten.html It was an epiphany I had coming back from BSDCan. I'm looking for some good ideas for a FreeBSD 5.3 T-Shirt Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org BSD Mall http://www.bsdmall.com Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org From george Thu May 27 19:53:00 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:53:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, May 27 Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: Marsee Henon > Date: May 27, 2004 7:33:15 PM EDT > To: george at nycbug.org > Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, May 27 > > ================================================================ > O'Reilly UG Program News--Just for User Group Leaders > May 27, 2004 > ================================================================ > -Special Event or Meeting Coming Up? > -We Still Have Expo Hall Passes for Macworld in Boston July 13-15 > -Put Up an O'Reilly Open Source Convention Banner, Get a Free Book > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Book Info > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ***Review books are available > Copies of our books are available for your members to review-- > send me an email and please include the book's ISBN number on > your request. Let me know if you need your book by a certain date. > Allow at least four weeks for shipping. > > ***Please send copies of your book reviews > Email me a copy of your newsletters or book reviews. > For tips and suggestions on writing book reviews, go to: > http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html > > ***Discount information > Don't forget to remind your members about our 20% discount on O'Reilly, > No Starch, Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, and Syngress books and > O'Reilly > conferences. > Just use code DSUG. > > ***Group purchases with better discounts are available > Please let me know if you are interested and I can put you in > touch with our sales department. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > General News > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ***Do you have a special event or meeting coming up? > Let me know so I can send along a book or two to help support your > topic. > Please give me as much notice as possible to make sure your materials > arrive in time. > > Here is our list of books to peruse: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/prdindex.html > > > ***We Still Have Expo Hall Passes for Macworld in Boston July 13-15 > Let me know and I can send you some--we've got lots of them. The free > online registration is over, but you can bring these cards on site to > register for an exhibit hall admission. > > > ***Put Up an O'Reilly Open Source Convention Banner, Get a Free Book > We're looking for user groups to display our conference banner on their > web sites. If you send me the link to your user group site with our > O'Reilly Open Source Convention banner, I will send you the book of > your > choice. > > OSCON Conference Banners: > http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/oscon2004/ > > ================================================================ > O'Reilly News for User Group Members > May 27, 2004 > ================================================================ > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Book News > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -Hackers & Painters > -Web Database Applications with PHP and MySQL, 2nd Ed. > -Stealing the Network > -Hibernate: A Developer's Notebook > -Digital Photography Hacks > -.NET Compact Framework Pocket Guide > -Pragmatic Version Control Using CVS > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Upcoming Events > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -Rob Griffiths ("Max OS X Hints"), Rogue Valley Mac Expo 2004, > Grants Pass, OR--June 13 > -Derrick Story ("Digital Photography Hacks"), North Coast Mac Users > Group, > Rohnert Park, CA--June 15 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Conference News > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -Mac OS X Conference Call for Participation--Ends June 11 > -O'Reilly Open Source Convention Early Bird Discount--Ends June 18 > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > News > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -O'Reilly Distributes Pragmatic Bookshelf > -Microsoft Smartphone Tips and Tricks > -Dave Chappell: Inside the Enterprise Service Bus > -Inside the Homebrew Atari 2600 Scene > -Top Ten Ethereal Tips and Tricks > -FreeBSD Networking Basics > -The Fight Against Spam > -Top 12 Ways to Degunk Your PC > -Windows Server Hacks: Configuring Universal Group Caching > -SSS (Small, Simple, Safe) > -Documenting Projects with Apache Forrest > -C# Generics > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > News From Your Peers > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > -Looking for more User Group events to attend? Or want to get > more exposure for your events? > > ================================================ > Book News > ================================================ > Did you know you can request a free book to review for your > group? Ask your group leader for more information. > > For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to: > http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html > > Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, > Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, or Syngress book you purchase directly > from O'Reilly. > Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938. > http://www.oreilly.com/ > > > ***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at > least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer > applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico. > For more details, go to: > http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > New Releases > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > ***Hackers & Painters > Publisher: O'Reilly > ISBN: 0596006624 > "Hackers & Painters" examines issues such as the importance of beauty > in > software design, the programming language renaissance, spam filtering, > the > Open Source Movement, and Internet startups. Each essay moves beyond > widely held beliefs about the way programmers work and tells important > stories about the kinds of people behind technological innovations, > revealing distinctions about their characters and their craft. Hackers > who > read this book will surely recognize themselves within these pages, and > programmers will have new thoughts percolating the minute they put it > down. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/hackpaint/ > > Chapter 2, "Hackers and Painters," is available free online: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/hackpaint/chapter/index.html > > > ****Web Database Applications with PHP and MySQL, 2nd Ed. > Publisher: O'Reilly > ISBN: 0596005431 > "Web Database Applications with PHP and MySQL, 2nd Edition" has been > updated and redesigned around the rich offerings of PEAR. Several of > these > offerings, including the Template package and the database-independent > query API, have been integrated into examples and thoroughly described. > Using a complex sample application, all the important techniques of > dynamic content are introduced with an emphasis on good design. The > book > also introduces PHP 5 and MySQL 4.1 features, while providing > techniques > that can be used on older versions of the software. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/webdbapps2/ > > Chapter 11, "Authentication and Security," is available online: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/webdbapps2/chapter/index.html > > > ***Stealing the Network > Publisher: Syngress > ISBN: 1931836051 > A fictional continent is emerging as a major new economic, political, > and > military force on the world stage. However, its rapid growth has left > little in the way of time and money to shore up its Internet backbone; > now > it's vulnerable to a potentially catastrophic attack. Who are the bad > guys? What do they want? How will it end? Find out in this > cyber-thriller, > written by some of the most accomplished cyber-security specialists in > the > world. We could tell you their real names, but then we'd have to kill > you. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1931836051/ > > > ***Hibernate: A Developer's Notebook > Publisher: O'Reilly > ISBN: 0596006969 > "Hibernate: A Developer's Notebook" shows you how to use Hibernate to > automate persistence: you write natural Java objects and some simple > configuration files, and Hibernate automates all the interaction > between > your objects and the database. You don't even need to know the > database is > there, and you can change from one database to another simply by > changing > a few statements in a configuration file. If you've needed to add a > database back-end to your application, don't put it off. It's much more > fun than it used to be. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596006969/ > > Chapter 3, "Harnessing Hibernate," is available online: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0596006969/chapter/index.html > > > ***Digital Photography Hacks > Publisher: O'Reilly > ISBN: 0596006667 > Going beyond the standard fare of most digital photography books, > "Digital > Photography Hacks" > shares the knowledge that professional photographers have learned > through > thousands of shots' worth of experience and years of experimentation. > With > exquisite, full-color photos throughout, the book presents 100 proven > techniques in the areas of daytime and nighttime photo secrets, flash > magic, digital camera attachments, fun photo projects, camera phone > tricks, and more. This book is your passport to taking the kind of > digital > photos you've always aspired to. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/digphotohks/ > > Ten Sample Hacks are available online: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/digphotohks/chapter/index.html > > > ***.NET Compact Framework Pocket Guide > Publisher: O'Reilly > ISBN: ISBN: 0596007574 > ".NET Compact Framework Pocket Guide" teaches you what you need to > know to > create applications for Pocket PC- and Windows-based Smartphones. This > pocket guide is a handy reference that provides a quick tour of the > .NET > Compact Framework, and includes several working projects to get you > productive straightaway. Whether you're new to mobile programming or > new > to Visual Studio .NET 2003, ".NET Compact Framework Pocket Guide" will > have you writing mobile applications quickly. Get the information you > need > without all the fluff. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/compactframeworkpg/ > > A sample excerpt, "Project A: Currency Converter," is available online: > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/compactframeworkpg/chapter/index.html > > > ***Pragmatic Version Control Using CVS > Publisher: Pragmatic Bookshelf > ISBN: 0974514004 > Version control systems don't have to be complicated, or > time-consuming. > This book is a recipe-based approach to using the CVS Version Control > system that will get you up and running quickly--and correctly. Half of > all project teams in the U.S. don't use any version control at all, and > many others experience problems. > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0974514004/ > > ================================================ > Upcoming Events > ================================================ > ***For more events, please see: > http://events.oreilly.com/ > > > ***Rob Griffiths ("Max OS X Hints"), Rogue Valley Mac Expo 2004, > Grants Pass, OR--June 13 > Rob will be one of the featured presenters at this event. > Josephine County Fairgrounds Art Building > Grants Pass, OR > http://www.jomacs.org/news_article.php?article_id=39 > > ***Derrick Story ("Digital Photography Hacks"), North Coast Mac Users > Group, Rohnert Park, CA--June 15 > Derrick, author and O'Reilly Network editor, presents "Movie Making > with > Your Digital Camera" at the June NCMUG meeting. Learn to create > compelling > QuickTime video that can be shared with friends, family, and even > coworkers in the business environment. Free for NCMUG members and $5 > for > non-members. > Rohnert Park Senior Center > Rohnert Park, CA > http://www.ncmug.org/ > > ================================================ > Conference News > ================================================ > ***Mac OS X Conference Call for Participation--Ends June 11 > If you're pushing the Mac envelope, we want you to speak at our third > annual Mac OS X Conference this October. We're looking for proposals > from > developers building new apps, admins tapping the open source toolbox, > small business owners powering their bottom lines, and digital > musicians > leveraging X's muscle--but we're open to surprises, too. > The deadline for proposals is June 11. > http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/macosx2004/create/e_sess > > > ***O'Reilly Open Source Convention Early Bird Discount--Ends June 18 > User Group members who register before June 18, 2004 get a double > discount. Use code DSUG when you register, and you'll get 20% off the > "Early Bird" price. > > To register, go to: > http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/ord_os04 > > O'Reilly Open Source Convention > Portland Marriott Downtown > Portland, OR > July 26-30, 2004 > http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ > > ================================================ > News From O'Reilly & Beyond > ================================================ > --------------------- > General News > --------------------- > ***O'Reilly Distributes Pragmatic Bookshelf > Books by developers, for developers: that's the pragmatic way, and it's > nicely aligned with the O'Reilly approach to publishing. We're happy to > help Pragmatic Programmers reach a wider audience by providing sales, > distribution, and marketing support for Pragmatic Bookshelf, an > imprint of > Pragmatic Programmers, LLC. > For a list of titles available on the Pragmatic Bookshelf, visit: > http://pragmatic.oreilly.com/ > > > ***Microsoft Smartphone Tips and Tricks > Ultimately, smartphones are only as smart as the applications that run > on > them. Wei-Meng Lee begins a new series that explores what's possible, > and > what's practical, with these powerful mobile devices. Wei-Meng is the > author of "Windows XP Unwired." > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/wireless/2004/05/14/ > smartphone_tips.html > > > ***Dave Chappell: Inside the Enterprise Service Bus > Integration Developer News spoke with Dave Chappell to gain insights on > how ESBs work, and more importantly, how they may change the way Java > developers look at XML, XPath, messaging, and transaction-driven > integration projects. Dave is the author of O'Reilly's upcoming > "Enterprise Service Bus." > http://www.idevnews.com/CaseStudies.asp?ID=124 > > --------------------- > Open Source > --------------------- > ***Inside the Homebrew Atari 2600 Scene > Despite console-company protestations to the contrary, emulators aren't > only tools for copyright infringers. If it weren't for emulators, would > the Atari 2600 homebrew scene be where it is today? "Wait, there's an > Atari 2600 homebrew scene?" you ask. As Howard Wen explains, it exists, > and new-school programmers are making some impressive games in the > old-school style. > http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/05/20/ > atari_2600_homebrew.html > > > ***Top Ten Ethereal Tips and Tricks > Ethereal rivals commercial sniffers with its abundance of features and > hundreds of protocol dissectors. And best of all, it's free. Here's a > top > ten list of Ethereal tips and tricks from Angela D. Orebaugh, a > coauthor > of Syngress' "Ethereal Packet Sniffing." > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/security/2004/05/13/etherealtips.html > > > ***FreeBSD Networking Basics > Networking is integral to many functions of a modern FreeBSD system. > When > it's working, it works wonderfully. When it's not working--or before > you've configured things--it can frustrate new users. Dru Lavigne, > author > of O'Reilly's "BSD Hacks," explains how to verify, configure, and > optimize > FreeBSD networking. > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/05/13/FreeBSD_Basics.html > > --------------------- > Mac > --------------------- > ***LDAP in Mac OS X Server > Typical network services problems, such as enabling all of your > computers > to use the same login information to authenticate users, can be solved > with directory services. Panther has the built-in tools, but they're > still > less than elegant. Tony Williams shows you how to piece them together. > http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/05/25/ldap.html > > > ***The Fight Against Spam > Fighting spam is a battle that all Internet users must fight. Francois > Joseph de Kermadec shows you practical techniques, many of which you > might > have overlooked, to take back control of your email. > > Part One: > http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/05/14/spam_pt1.html > > Part Two: > http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/05/18/spam_pt2.html > > Part Three: > http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/05/21/spam_pt3.html > > --------------------- > Windows > --------------------- > ***Top 12 Ways to Degunk Your PC > Your PC, with its 80GB hard drive and 512MB of RAM, runs way too slow. > Why? It's gunked up with pictures, movies, music, and attachments > you've > saved; you've saved stuff to the wrong places; and you have apps > installed > that you don't use. If you want to clean up your PC, and get it > running as > fast as it should, follow Joli Ballew and Jeff Duntemann's 12-step > program > for degunking your PC. Joli and Jeff are the authors of "Degunking > Windows" from Paraglyph Press. > http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/05/25/ > degunkwindows.html > > > ***Windows Server Hacks: Configuring Universal Group Caching > Universal groups offer big benefits for system administrators, but can > have downsides as well. Mitch Tulloch, author of O'Reilly's "Windows > Server Hacks," shows you how to get the most out of them, and how to > avoid > the pitfalls. > http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/05/18/ > ug_caching.html > > --------------------- > Java > --------------------- > ***SSS (Small, Simple, Safe) > Teaching Java is complicated both by the language's syntax and the huge > number of classes in its standard libraries. According to Alper Coskun, > one solution might be "Small Simple Safe" (SSS), which tries to > alleviate > this by giving the user an opportunity to create and relate objects in > a > very simple GUI. > http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/05/26/sss.html > > > ***Documenting Projects with Apache Forrest > Apache Forrest helps you develop the documentation to accompany your > application, automatically providing a number of neat features such as > menus, links, cross-references, and breadcrumb navigation. Kyle Downey > provides an introduction. > http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2004/05/26/forrest.html > > --------------------- > .NET > --------------------- > ***C# Generics > The single most anticipated (and dreaded?) feature of Visual C# 2.0 is > the > addition of Generics. Jesse Liberty shows you what problems Generics > solve, how to use them to improve your code, and why you need not fear > them. > http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/05/17/liberty.html > > ================================================ > News From Your Peers > ================================================ > ***Looking for more User Group events to attend? Or want to get > more exposure for your next meeting? > Check out the events page on the O'Reilly UG wiki: > http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/null?UGEvents > > Until next time-- > > Marsee > > From george Thu May 27 19:59:30 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:59:30 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt In-Reply-To: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> Message-ID: On May 27, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Chris Coleman wrote: > Did you guys see the new t-shirt? http://www.bsdmall.com/fourten.html > > It was an epiphany I had coming back from BSDCan. I'm looking for > some good ideas for a FreeBSD 5.3 T-Shirt > > Christopher. . . What sets the OBSD world apart is their themes. . . The continuing battles of Puffy, the songs, etc, all good tshirt material. . .as was easily noticed as BSDCan. I know Net will have a new logo, and this could quickly put them in that league, but Free is dismal. Yeah, the main logo that people identify with BSD is the FreeBSD logo, but that's as far as it goes. It wouldn't hurt for BSDMall/DN/NYCBUG to create it's own little theme for the entire BSD world. . . ideas? Non-NYC-centric, project agnostic. . . g From mikel.king Thu May 27 21:54:28 2004 From: mikel.king (Mikel King) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 21:54:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt In-Reply-To: References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> Message-ID: <40B69BD4.2090902@ocsny.com> G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 27, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Chris Coleman wrote: > >> Did you guys see the new t-shirt? http://www.bsdmall.com/fourten.html >> >> It was an epiphany I had coming back from BSDCan. I'm looking for >> some good ideas for a FreeBSD 5.3 T-Shirt >> >> > > Christopher. . . > > What sets the OBSD world apart is their themes. . . > > The continuing battles of Puffy, the songs, etc, all good tshirt > material. . .as was easily noticed as BSDCan. > > I know Net will have a new logo, and this could quickly put them in > that league, but Free is dismal. > > Yeah, the main logo that people identify with BSD is the FreeBSD logo, > but that's as far as it goes. > > It wouldn't hurt for BSDMall/DN/NYCBUG to create it's own little theme > for the entire BSD world. . . > > ideas? Non-NYC-centric, project agnostic. . . > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk In order to be that generic we might end up with a hotdog, plain old boiled no mustard, or ketchup, or even onions let alone chili...Uh sorry just got home from work it's been a rather long day...no supper yet, where was I...Oh yeah...so like can we maybe come up with a set of core ideals and criteria; then say postit on the NYCBUG and DN site as a logo contest? The winner gets a complimentary item with the new logo on it, and credit of course for their design....blah blah blah... -- Cheers, Mikel King Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org http://www.MySql.org +------------------------------------------+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. +------------------------------------------+ From george Thu May 27 22:28:19 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 22:28:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt In-Reply-To: <40B69BD4.2090902@ocsny.com> References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> <40B69BD4.2090902@ocsny.com> Message-ID: On May 27, 2004, at 9:54 PM, Mikel King wrote: > > In order to be that generic we might end up with a hotdog, plain old > boiled no mustard, or ketchup, or even onions let alone chili...Uh > sorry just got home from work it's been a rather long day...no supper > yet, where was I...Oh yeah...so like can we maybe come up with a set > of core ideals and criteria; then say postit on the NYCBUG and DN site > as a logo contest? The winner gets a complimentary item with the new > logo on it, and credit of course for their design....blah blah blah... > > Great idea. . .probably as you were typing that, I said the same exact thing to Chris over the phone. . . There should be some fun with this. . .like there's been generated around the NetBSD logo. FBSD 5.3 is supposed to be the first stable release in the 5.x series. *That* seems to me to be a great theme to work from. . . . What about the daemon pulling the Leaning Tower of Pisa straight up? What about some earthquake theme. . .the daemon closing a fissure in the earth? We should also get this onto the FBSD lists. . .particularly advocacy. . . g From george Fri May 28 00:48:33 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 00:48:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] an update. . . Message-ID: <464961FC-B062-11D8-BBE4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Did some small updates on the homepage yesterday. . . There's two links for you desktop. . .good for your X or OS X desktop included. . . blue think BSD red think BSD g From bob Fri May 28 03:02:11 2004 From: bob (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 03:02:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] an update. . . In-Reply-To: <464961FC-B062-11D8-BBE4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <464961FC-B062-11D8-BBE4-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On May 28, 2004, at 12:48 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > Did some small updates on the homepage yesterday. . . > > There's two links for you desktop. . .good for your X or OS X desktop > included. . . > > blue think BSD > > red think BSD That gave me flashbacks of last year. I totally forgot how much they muted the window backgrounds in 10.3.. Who knows, maybe in 10.4 we'll just have a solid grey :) -bob From Pastor_Mac Fri May 28 09:37:26 2004 From: Pastor_Mac (Pastor Mac) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 09:37:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <62187715-AD2A-11D8-85F3-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: <2872C26A-B0AC-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> On Sunday, May 23, 2004, at 10:30 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > I think there's been some good input on this. > > I'd actually like to hear more from the lurkers on the list, whether > or not they have attended a NYCBUG meeting. > > It would seem that they would have some reaction to the posted > comments. . .and some insight others are missing. A documentation project has also been pitched targeted towards home users, experimenters/dabblers, and other such non-power or professional users over on the freebsd-newbies list. I've also been seeing a recurring thread in comp.os.unix.freebsd and comp.os.unix.freebsd.misc from inquirers about what FreeBSD is as it relates to Linux. Indeed, it seems with a recent Usenet poster that he thought FBSD is simply a flavor of Linux. Several replies followed up on that question (the replies were well written and polite, btw) and the original poster went out and bought a FreeBSD set from Fry's. I think the idea of writing a tutorial for basic users, i.e. those who have a good command of PC/Mac navigation, who want to see what an open source *NIXish OS is like and how it can be deployed as a home server/firewall would be a quality project. I've looked about and around for such a basic tutorial on either Linux or BSD and have yet been able to find something that was, IMO, really geared for a non-geek user. This angle, I believe, is where a BSD could really take off--the central storage for a family's documents, music, etc plus providing a truly first rate firewall. Since the above is what I intend for my home, I'd love to offer whatever writing skills I have to help document whatever materializes as my home server to the project. From my initial introductory post a couple of weeks ago, I received extremely generous offers of help which I intend to follow up on when we get to Sussex in less than two weeks. As to making meetings in the City, I cannot judge yet how often that can happen. Sussex is a bit far away but NJT does have a terminus in Port Jervis however it is a 2 hour trip one way. In spite of the logistics, I very much would like to be a part of the user group and contribute whatever I can offer back to the community. Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From george Fri May 28 10:01:20 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:01:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <2872C26A-B0AC-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> References: <2872C26A-B0AC-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> Message-ID: <7F4C90EE-B0AF-11D8-A2D0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 28, 2004, at 9:37 AM, Pastor Mac wrote: > > > A documentation project has also been pitched targeted towards home > users, experimenters/dabblers, and other such non-power or > professional users over on the freebsd-newbies list. I've also been > seeing a recurring thread in comp.os.unix.freebsd and > comp.os.unix.freebsd.misc from inquirers about what FreeBSD is as it > relates to Linux. Indeed, it seems with a recent Usenet poster that > he thought FBSD is simply a flavor of Linux. Several replies followed > up on that question (the replies were well written and polite, btw) > and the original poster went out and bought a FreeBSD set from Fry's. > And we've pitched the same thing a while back. . .you can see the link on our site. We're just waiting on our new site. We'd also like include things like book and software reviews, more complex project outlines, etc. I think the 'What is Linux, BSD?' theme is good for a nice short piece, as for years at the BSMall tables at LinuxWorld Expo, etc, we're approached with questions such as " how many distributions does BSD have?" or the notion that somehow Linux precedes BSD. It's documented so many places, but maybe we could contribute to the clarification process by doing our view on this. . . (what is "Fry's"?) > I think the idea of writing a tutorial for basic users, i.e. those who > have a good command of PC/Mac navigation, who want to see what an open > source *NIXish OS is like and how it can be deployed as a home > server/firewall would be a quality project. I've looked about and > around for such a basic tutorial on either Linux or BSD and have yet > been able to find something that was, IMO, really geared for a > non-geek user. This angle, I believe, is where a BSD could really > take off--the central storage for a family's documents, music, etc > plus providing a truly first rate firewall. Good point, but to be honest this issue has always confused me a bit. Obviously BSD's make a great home firewall, but as Wes argued in his last meeting, there are so many basic, easy-to-setup commercial products out there, I don't see the BSD's encroaching on the family photo repository market or home firewalls for non-technical users. Most can't be bothered, and just want things to work. They are flustered by losing their navigation bar in Internet Explorer, and BSD is not about that market. There are lots and lots of people running BSD as a home firewall. That's clear. I spoke to a Manhattan RedHat trainer at LWE in January, and we were talking about BSD, and he said "Sure, I have an OBSD firewall at home." That's great and all, and it's something to be encouraged, and something we want to facilitate, but I don't see it as a market that the BSD's have a great future . . .it's the backend that matters, where there is already a big presence at ISP's, hosting firms, etc. But someone actually making that type of product and selling it to home users, that's another story. . . Do an "nmap -O" on your average commercial firewall, and you may find BSD there already. > > Since the above is what I intend for my home, I'd love to offer > whatever writing skills I have to help document whatever materializes > as my home server to the project. From my initial introductory post a > couple of weeks ago, I received extremely generous offers of help > which I intend to follow up on when we get to Sussex in less than two > weeks. As to making meetings in the City, I cannot judge yet how > often that can happen. Sussex is a bit far away but NJT does have a > terminus in Port Jervis however it is a 2 hour trip one way. In spite > of the logistics, I very much would like to be a part of the user > group and contribute whatever I can offer back to the community. > Pax, > > Pastor Mac > On OS X > That's awesome. Your writing is clear and concise, and it's clear that you doing a How-To would benefit so so many. If you can't make NYC meetings, which I know are difficult for some in the far suburbs, then maybe we can arrange periodic meetings out there. . .or at least you could pull people together on a regular basis. . .You could be a sub-project of NYCBUG. . .We can send periodic speakers out there to bear country (oh, they didn't tell you *that*), and all get together on a less frequent basis. BTW, one of the best How-To's I ever read is on building a home firewall running ipf: http://www.schlacter.net/public/ It's very dated, but I think great for the new user looking to build a home firewall. Sorry all for the ramble. . .my coffee had bad milk in it this am, so I don't feel I'm at my most articulate. . . g From chrisc Fri May 28 11:14:51 2004 From: chrisc (Chris Coleman) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:14:51 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <7F4C90EE-B0AF-11D8-A2D0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> References: <2872C26A-B0AC-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> <7F4C90EE-B0AF-11D8-A2D0-000D9328615E@sddi.net> Message-ID: On May 28, 2004, at 9:01 AM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > (what is "Fry's"?) Fry's is a discount electronics chain in California and a few other western states. BSDMall has boxed sets of most if our products in there. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org BSD Mall http://www.bsdmall.com Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org From bschonhorst Fri May 28 11:38:25 2004 From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:38:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <2872C26A-B0AC-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> References: <2872C26A-B0AC-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> Message-ID: <0F811704-B0BD-11D8-8839-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> On May 28, 2004, at 9:37 AM, Pastor Mac wrote: > > On Sunday, May 23, 2004, at 10:30 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > >> I think there's been some good input on this. >> >> I'd actually like to hear more from the lurkers on the list, whether >> or not they have attended a NYCBUG meeting. >> >> It would seem that they would have some reaction to the posted >> comments. . .and some insight others are missing. > > > > I think the idea of writing a tutorial for basic users, i.e. those who > have a good command of PC/Mac navigation, who want to see what an open > source *NIXish OS is like I have been putting together some how-to documents for new bsd users. I am new to the bsd's myself and thought it would be cool to try and make others introduction a bit easier. I am hoping that the docs will be able to take someone with little or no unix ability and get them through an OpenBSD install and feel a bit more comfortable with the command line. More and more Mac admins are finding that learning unix skills is a necessity and they look towards the BSD community first. I'd love some feedback on what I have so far or any ideas about where to post them for more accessibility. http://plumblossom.org/openbsd.html -brad -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20040528/89f2ead3/attachment.bin From Pastor_Mac Fri May 28 13:21:41 2004 From: Pastor_Mac (Pastor Mac) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:21:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] eurobsdcon In-Reply-To: <0F811704-B0BD-11D8-8839-000A9573D036@vcsnyc.org> Message-ID: <7C53E6AE-B0CB-11D8-B903-00306577F390@spymac.com> On Friday, May 28, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote: > I'd love some feedback on what I have so far or any ideas about where > to post them for more accessibility. You rock. Your material is simply splendid. Added to the growing bookmark collection. Also George's link to the schlacter.org FBSD firewall tutorial. Pax, Pastor Mac On OS X From dan Fri May 28 13:45:24 2004 From: dan (Dan Langille) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:45:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN? Message-ID: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost> Do you know someone at MSN? My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically. Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop. I suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged out of MSN Messenger. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From bsd Fri May 28 15:39:54 2004 From: bsd (Kevin Reiter) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:39:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone with a contact at MSN? References: <40B74274.27458.14EC1E98@localhost> Message-ID: <001b01c444eb$8d39df40$0800a8c0@hephaestus> > My laptop was stolen. It logs into MSN Messenger automatically. > Yesterday I was logged out of MSN Messenger on my home desktop. I > suspect the thief powered on the laptop and that's why I was logged > out of MSN Messenger. Does MSN offer any information on previous logins, like ICQ and others? Usually, it'll say something along the lines of "... last successful login from 1.2.3.4 ..." or similar. Anyone else know more about it? (I use Trillian, which has that, but I don't have an MSN account, so I can't check it to be sure.) -Kev From clarke Sat May 29 01:52:04 2004 From: clarke (Nigel Clarke) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 05:52:04 -0000 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... Message-ID: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? Linux was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to endorse it. When I say successful, I'm speaking of making it into corporate environments. One of the other advantages that Linux offers is that it is economical. That and stable vendor support make it an easy decision for management. How does BSD compare? How will BSD make it into corporate environments? -- Nigel Clarke CRAFTED PACKETS LLC Security Engineer clarke at craftedpackets.net www.craftedpackets.net From jesse Sat May 29 02:01:44 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 02:01:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt In-Reply-To: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> Message-ID: On May 27, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Chris Coleman wrote: > Did you guys see the new t-shirt? http://www.bsdmall.com/fourten.html > > It was an epiphany I had coming back from BSDCan. I'm looking for > some good ideas for a FreeBSD 5.3 T-Shirt > > Chris Coleman Editor in Chief > Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org > BSD Mall http://www.bsdmall.com > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org > I really think a nuclear power plant is too much for FreeBSD. A bikeshed would be kind of appropriate as long as it is a module. Thoughts? From george Sat May 29 02:39:42 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 02:39:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... In-Reply-To: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> Message-ID: On May 29, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Nigel Clarke wrote: > What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? Linux > was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to > endorse it. When I say successful, I'm speaking of making it into > corporate environments. > > One of the other advantages that Linux offers is that it is economical. > That and stable vendor support make it an easy decision for management. > > How does BSD compare? How will BSD make it into corporate environments? > First things first. I think this thought about the corporate environment is incorrect in some ways. The presence of BSD in the hosting and ISPs is enormous. That may be the most challenging 'corporate environment' on a technical level. I also think that the BSD presence in the world outside the US east coast is much more significant and recognized. That seems like the 64k question, but I think the base reason for the 'tardiness' is the ATT court case, which dragged the BSDs down from getting a quick start in the years before the dot com period. What does Linux have? First I don't think that the popularity of Linux is at the expense of the BSD's in general. When companies migrate to free, open source software, it's in the favor of the BSD community. Sure, some migrated *from* BSD to a Linux distro when BSDI, BSD/OS when south, but the anecdotes you hear seem to show there's some fluctuation between the BSDs and Linux. I think that people have accepted FOSS in the corporate environments helps us all. Just as when SCO attacked Linux, it was also an attack on the BSD community, even before we got a mention. Linux has a real political appeal due to the GPL for a layer of people also, and that means an increase in advocacy. That point is ever so clear on Slashdot, where lots of barely technical users troll the BSD stories as a hobby. It seems to set a tone that few people openly take seriously, but many seem implicitly impacted by. As everyone knows, the BSD community has never taken advocacy seriously as a whole. This may or may not change, but the role of NYCBUG is certainly important in this equation. What city is more important than NYC? Maybe Rome and Athens in the classical period, London in the age of the British Empire, but that's the past. The vendor question is also important, as you raised it. Because of BSD licensing, there's no need for a vendor to advertise the code being at the core of their closed source and or embedded system. Snap Appliances, for instance, broadcasts that one of its product lines runs on Linux. But try to find on their www site that their other product line uses BSD. I tried it once, but it was fruitless. What are the strengths of BSD? A long history. Innovation in whole numbers of area, from TCP/IP to DNS and firewalling. A level of obsessive seriousness among its developers. The incorporation into OS X. It's recognition as a serious project, something everyone notices. Tell someone you hack Linux, and the average tech thinks, cool. Tell them you hack BSD, and you get immediate respect. In comparison to Linux, the advantages are clear to me. Stability, security and performance before bleeding edge, which certainly matters in a corporate environment. The licensing is better for businesses (although I think it's better for developers even more). Finally, when you use BSD, you use a total system, and probably some apps that are GPL. When you use a Linux, you're using Linus' kernel, some distribution's userland and system, third party packages, and someone or another's drivers. All along the way, you're banking on things to work like a nice mixed salad. You just have a greater chance of someone throwing in a radish too many, and you'll have a hard time finding out who it was. This became an issue with the SCO case, or whatever you call that stock-pumping fiasco. Is there code that SCO claims to own in Linux? If so, where, and who put it there? These are questions that are difficult to answer, since there's no real accountability in code contributions in the Linux model of development. Open corporate backing is good, without a doubt. Particularly if it's a big name (and I don't mean Wind River). Apple isn't going to run BSD commercials like IBM has for Linux, but that's fine. But corporate support is about technical support and development, as you stated. *That* to me (and I know many others), is a major handicap for the growth of the BSDs. As I've mentioned before, we are attempting to setup some basic support through BSDMall. It will start out as M-F, 9-5 email and phone support, and hopefully develop from there. BSDMall has the name recognition and credibility, and we think it can work. And it will greatly enhance the prospects of the BSDs in the corporate environment if things develop. I don't believe that the BSDs are some "red-haired step child" (no insult meant to all the red-haired step children on the list). Things are moving along quite well on a development level, and I know that there's been a serious upswing in interest in the BSDs over the past year. Ask Chris Coleman on the state of BSDMall comparing today to a year ago. Woah, it's late. . . g From jesse Sat May 29 02:54:16 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 02:54:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt In-Reply-To: References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> Message-ID: <0025483F-B13D-11D8-B5BA-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> On May 27, 2004, at 7:59 PM, G.Rosamond wrote: > > On May 27, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Chris Coleman wrote: > >> Did you guys see the new t-shirt? http://www.bsdmall.com/fourten.html >> >> It was an epiphany I had coming back from BSDCan. I'm looking for >> some good ideas for a FreeBSD 5.3 T-Shirt >> >> > > Christopher. . . > > What sets the OBSD world apart is their themes. . . > > The continuing battles of Puffy, the songs, etc, all good tshirt > material. . .as was easily noticed as BSDCan. > > I know Net will have a new logo, and this could quickly put them in > that league, but Free is dismal. > > Yeah, the main logo that people identify with BSD is the FreeBSD logo, > but that's as far as it goes. > > It wouldn't hurt for BSDMall/DN/NYCBUG to create it's own little theme > for the entire BSD world. . . > > ideas? Non-NYC-centric, project agnostic. . . > > g I think a turtle would be appropriate. Each scale of the shell could represent a diffrent BSD. It doesn't have to be a 1to 1 correspondence. On second thought they might be percieved as being slow and hermit-like. Strictly incorporating the demon + pitchfork with a sea theme yields Neptune. But that doesn't mean anything. Hammer and anvil? Tools of a blacksmith.. a toolmaker. Or we could go more high-tech to like a machinist. I just thought of the calipers and maybe it's getting too Masonic here. But I think the blacksmith line of thought could go pretty far. From clarke Sat May 29 09:31:05 2004 From: clarke (Nigel Clarke) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:31:05 -0000 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... In-Reply-To: References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> Message-ID: <1085838132.10913.25.camel@mckenzie> George, Thanks for the response. I'm not bashing BSD. It is becoming my OS of choice. The questions I asked were for myself and my research. Thanks, Nigel On Sat, 2004-05-29 at 02:39, G. Rosamond wrote: > On May 29, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Nigel Clarke wrote: > > > What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? Linux > > was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to > > endorse it. When I say successful, I'm speaking of making it into > > corporate environments. > > > > One of the other advantages that Linux offers is that it is economical. > > That and stable vendor support make it an easy decision for management. > > > > How does BSD compare? How will BSD make it into corporate environments? > > > > First things first. > > I think this thought about the corporate environment is incorrect in > some ways. > > The presence of BSD in the hosting and ISPs is enormous. That may be > the most challenging 'corporate environment' on a technical level. I > also think that the BSD presence in the world outside the US east coast > is much more significant and recognized. > > That seems like the 64k question, but I think the base reason for the > 'tardiness' is the ATT court case, which dragged the BSDs down from > getting a quick start in the years before the dot com period. > > What does Linux have? > > First I don't think that the popularity of Linux is at the expense of > the BSD's in general. When companies migrate to free, open source > software, it's in the favor of the BSD community. Sure, some migrated > *from* BSD to a Linux distro when BSDI, BSD/OS when south, but the > anecdotes you hear seem to show there's some fluctuation between the > BSDs and Linux. I think that people have accepted FOSS in the > corporate environments helps us all. Just as when SCO attacked Linux, > it was also an attack on the BSD community, even before we got a > mention. > > Linux has a real political appeal due to the GPL for a layer of people > also, and that means an increase in advocacy. > > That point is ever so clear on Slashdot, where lots of barely technical > users troll the BSD stories as a hobby. It seems to set a tone that > few people openly take seriously, but many seem implicitly impacted by. > > As everyone knows, the BSD community has never taken advocacy seriously > as a whole. This may or may not change, but the role of NYCBUG is > certainly important in this equation. What city is more important than > NYC? Maybe Rome and Athens in the classical period, London in the age > of the British Empire, but that's the past. > > The vendor question is also important, as you raised it. Because of > BSD licensing, there's no need for a vendor to advertise the code being > at the core of their closed source and or embedded system. Snap > Appliances, for instance, broadcasts that one of its product lines runs > on Linux. But try to find on their www site that their other product > line uses BSD. I tried it once, but it was fruitless. > > What are the strengths of BSD? A long history. Innovation in whole > numbers of area, from TCP/IP to DNS and firewalling. A level of > obsessive seriousness among its developers. The incorporation into OS > X. It's recognition as a serious project, something everyone notices. > Tell someone you hack Linux, and the average tech thinks, cool. Tell > them you hack BSD, and you get immediate respect. > > In comparison to Linux, the advantages are clear to me. Stability, > security and performance before bleeding edge, which certainly matters > in a corporate environment. The licensing is better for businesses > (although I think it's better for developers even more). Finally, when > you use BSD, you use a total system, and probably some apps that are > GPL. When you use a Linux, you're using Linus' kernel, some > distribution's userland and system, third party packages, and someone > or another's drivers. All along the way, you're banking on things to > work like a nice mixed salad. You just have a greater chance of > someone throwing in a radish too many, and you'll have a hard time > finding out who it was. > > This became an issue with the SCO case, or whatever you call that > stock-pumping fiasco. Is there code that SCO claims to own in Linux? > If so, where, and who put it there? These are questions that are > difficult to answer, since there's no real accountability in code > contributions in the Linux model of development. > > Open corporate backing is good, without a doubt. Particularly if it's > a big name (and I don't mean Wind River). Apple isn't going to run BSD > commercials like IBM has for Linux, but that's fine. > > But corporate support is about technical support and development, as > you stated. *That* to me (and I know many others), is a major handicap > for the growth of the BSDs. As I've mentioned before, we are > attempting to setup some basic support through BSDMall. It will start > out as M-F, 9-5 email and phone support, and hopefully develop from > there. BSDMall has the name recognition and credibility, and we think > it can work. And it will greatly enhance the prospects of the BSDs in > the corporate environment if things develop. > > I don't believe that the BSDs are some "red-haired step child" (no > insult meant to all the red-haired step children on the list). Things > are moving along quite well on a development level, and I know that > there's been a serious upswing in interest in the BSDs over the past > year. Ask Chris Coleman on the state of BSDMall comparing today to a > year ago. > > Woah, it's late. . . > > g -- Nigel Clarke CRAFTED PACKETS LLC Security Engineer clarke at craftedpackets.net www.craftedpackets.net From sunny-ml Sat May 29 19:30:31 2004 From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:30:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... In-Reply-To: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> Message-ID: <200405291929.57002.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> I wasn't going to reply, so I'll just clarify a few things (single response to both posts) On Saturday 29 May 2004 02:03 am, Nigel Clarke wrote: > What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? > was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to > endorse it. Solaris isn't a company, its a competing product of Sun Microsystems. Sun has had a love/hate relationship with linux. [...] On Saturday 29 May 2004 02:39 am, G.Rosamond wrote: > The vendor question is also important, as you raised it. Because of > BSD licensing, there's no need for a vendor to advertise the code being > at the core of their closed source and or embedded system. Snap > Appliances, for instance, broadcasts that one of its product lines runs > on Linux. But try to find on their www site that their other product > line uses BSD. I tried it once, but it was fruitless. > There is not advertising clause in GPL either. In fact its the adveritising clause of the original BSD license that RMS speaks out against (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html), and its the same reason why projects like GnuTLS started (because OpenSSL has an advertising clause). > Woah, it's late. . . > > g Yeah, doesn't your wife worry about late nite hacking ?! haha Sunny Dubey From jesse Sat May 29 19:35:03 2004 From: jesse (Jesse Callaway) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:35:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... In-Reply-To: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> Message-ID: On May 29, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Nigel Clarke wrote: > What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? Linux > was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to > endorse it. When I say successful, I'm speaking of making it into > corporate environments. > > One of the other advantages that Linux offers is that it is economical. > That and stable vendor support make it an easy decision for management. > > How does BSD compare? How will BSD make it into corporate environments? I think you've answered your questions. Support from someone they know who's proven. Anecdotes being advertised on TV. From rick Sat May 29 21:04:13 2004 From: rick (Rick Aliwalas) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... In-Reply-To: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2004, Nigel Clarke wrote: > What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? Linux > was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to > endorse it. When I say successful, I'm speaking of making it into > corporate environments. > > One of the other advantages that Linux offers is that it is economical. > That and stable vendor support make it an easy decision for management. > > How does BSD compare? How will BSD make it into corporate environments? I work for a Fortune 200 company and we use Free/OpenBSD heavily for infrastructure (mail, DNS, firewalls, etc). We chose to use BSD over Linux because at the time (~1997) the TCP/IP stack was much more robust. We are starting to use Linux for WebLogic and Oracle but it's displacing our Solaris machines, not BSD. I've found the BSD's to be much easier to maintain for a number of reasons. The documentation for the BSD's is really complete. The man pages in OpenBSD are just awesome. The man pages for RedHat on the other hand... Also, keeping up with the security upgrades for the RedHat kernel has been a hassle. Upgrading the kernel in BSD is trivial. In fact, upgrading the entire o/s via CVS is trvial. -rick aliwalas From george Sat May 29 21:20:33 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:20:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD in the enterprise.... In-Reply-To: <200405291929.57002.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> References: <1085810591.10913.21.camel@mckenzie> <200405291929.57002.sunny-ml@opencurve.org> Message-ID: <8C48A0F7-B1D7-11D8-8F77-000D9328615E@sddi.net> On May 29, 2004, at 7:30 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote: > I wasn't going to reply, so I'll just clarify a few things (single > response > to both posts) > > On Saturday 29 May 2004 02:03 am, Nigel Clarke wrote: >> What will it take to have *BSD in use in corporate environments? >> was not successful until companies like Solaris and IBM started to >> endorse it. > > Solaris isn't a company, its a competing product of Sun Microsystems. > Sun > has had a love/hate relationship with linux. Is there anyone Sun doesn't have a love/hate relation with? I'm trying my a list, but it's very short. . . > > [...] > > On Saturday 29 May 2004 02:39 am, G.Rosamond wrote: > > >> The vendor question is also important, as you raised it. Because of >> BSD licensing, there's no need for a vendor to advertise the code >> being >> at the core of their closed source and or embedded system. Snap >> Appliances, for instance, broadcasts that one of its product lines >> runs >> on Linux. But try to find on their www site that their other product >> line uses BSD. I tried it once, but it was fruitless. >> > > There is not advertising clause in GPL either. In fact its the > adveritising > clause of the original BSD license that RMS speaks out against > (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html), and its the same reason why > projects like GnuTLS started (because OpenSSL has an advertising > clause). > Of course the RMS commentary. . .forgot about that one Sunny. Most vendors work on the basis of the revised. The reality is that advertising and putting in credit in code is two different things. They are both worthy to mention, but I wouldn't call crediting advertising. g From george Sat May 29 21:29:45 2004 From: george (G.Rosamond) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 21:29:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 4:10 T-Shirt In-Reply-To: <0025483F-B13D-11D8-B5BA-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> References: <9339CECE-B030-11D8-B05B-000393A620A4@daemonnews.org> <0025483F-B13D-11D8-B5BA-000A95BD8054@theholymountain.com> Message-ID: On May 29, 2004, at 2:54 AM, Jesse Callaway wrote: >> ideas? Non-NYC-centric, project agnostic. . . >> >> g > > I think a turtle would be appropriate. Each scale of the shell could > represent a diffrent BSD. It doesn't have to be a 1to 1 > correspondence. On second thought they might be percieved as being > slow and hermit-like. > yes, and remember we're talking about fbsd 5.3. ..which may no longer be considered "new technology." > Strictly incorporating the demon + pitchfork with a sea theme yields > Neptune. But that doesn't mean anything. > but it's there. . . > Hammer and anvil? Tools of a blacksmith.. a toolmaker. Or we could go > more high-tech to like a machinist. I just thought of the calipers and > maybe it's getting too Masonic here. But I think the blacksmith line > of thought could go pretty far. > Deep. . . I can see the blacksmith thing working. . .but again, i think that the theme of fbsd 5.3 being the first stable needs to stand out. . . maybe the theme of atlas holding the globe? no more tornadoes or rain, no more earthquakes or volcanoes. . . g From theotherbush Sat May 29 17:35:04 2004 From: theotherbush (Harold Bush) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:35:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help Message-ID: Folks I need some help making a decision. I'm moving my hosting clients from a rented server in Atlanta to a location near my office where a friend and I are sharing a T1 (Wodstock NY). I have a few questions. I will be providing web host/mail service for about 30 clients and am wondering whether to use FreeBSD 4.10 or 5.2.1. The goal is to provide a stable hosting situation that will not require a lot of work once installed. I intend to use Apache and Postfix and some web mail front end not yet determined (suggestions?). On page 70 of Greg Lehey's book "The Complete FreeBSD" he states: ... I now recommend: Make a single root file system Do not have a seaparate /usr file system Do not have a separate /var file system unless you have a good idea how big it should be. A good example may be a web server, where (contrary to FreeBSD's recommendations) it is a good idea to put the web pages on the var file system This is a little confusing to me (I haven't done any Unix work since 95). Can someone recommend a file structure that will support web hosting and mail serving that is a known good configuration (in general)? Harold Bush Technologist digitalBRANDS ? From mspitze1 Mon May 31 23:07:11 2004 From: mspitze1 (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:07:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040531230711.11647e7a@bogomips.optonline.net> On Sat, 29 May 2004 17:35:04 -0400 Harold Bush wrote: > Folks > > I need some help making a decision. I'm moving my hosting clients from > a rented server in Atlanta to a location near my office where a > friend and I are sharing a T1 (Wodstock NY). I have a few questions. I > will be providing web host/mail service for about 30 clients and am > wondering whether to use FreeBSD 4.10 or 5.2.1. The goal is to provide > a stable hosting situation that will not require a lot of work once > installed. I intend to use Apache and Postfix and some web mail front > end not yet determined (suggestions?). Both will work, and with the connection being a T1 your choke point will be network not cpu. And both are solid. 4.10 is branded stable and 5.2.1 is not, if that matters to you. But on the other hand 5.2.1 can use the hyper-threaded p4 cpus better then 4.10. > > On page 70 of Greg Lehey's book "The Complete FreeBSD" he states: > ... I now recommend: > Make a single root file system > Do not have a seaparate /usr file system > Do not have a separate /var file system unless you have a good idea > how big it should be. A good example may be a web server, where > (contrary to FreeBSD's recommendations) it is a good idea to put the > web pages on the var file system are you running, or planning to run, any raid software/hardware? > > This is a little confusing to me (I haven't done any Unix work since > 95). Can someone recommend a file structure that will support web > hosting and mail serving that is a known good configuration (in > general)? sizes depend on how much disk is available / swap /usr /var /home /tmp /var/mail /var/web should work, /var/mail/ and /var/web are optional Also are you looking to use a jail for security? Or any spam/virus filtering? Good luck with this. marc > > Harold Bush > Technologist > digitalBRANDS ? > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk From ike Mon May 31 23:39:46 2004 From: ike (Isaac Levy) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:39:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53C2D822-B37D-11D8-96E8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org> Hi Harold, sorry to send again- forgot to cc to the list. On May 29, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Harold Bush wrote: > Folks > > I need some help making a decision. I'm moving my hosting clients from > a rented server in Atlanta to a location near my office where a > friend and I are sharing a T1 (Wodstock NY). I have a few questions. I > will be providing web host/mail service for about 30 clients and am > wondering whether to use FreeBSD 4.10 or 5.2.1. The goal is to provide > a stable hosting situation that will not require a lot of work once > installed. For a web server you wish not to become painful or surprising: I'd DEFINATELY suggest going 4.10, (or 4.9 even, but 4.10 is indeed the current production release at the time of this writing). With FreeBSD, it is best practice (and simply sane) to heed these words: DO NOT attempt to use anything but a Production release for Production systems, unless you specifically know what your doing and have the time/energy/economics to deal with the blood which can spill on the cutting edge. Also, the FreeBSD cvsup system enables you to elegantly compile a full system upgrade in a given system, so a future of the 5.3 FreeBSD, (the first *gulp* production 5.x release) will be a snap when the time comes. > I intend to use Apache and Postfix and some web mail front end not yet > determined (suggestions?). Apache, rocks. Stick to the 1.3.x branch instead of the 2.x branch, for the same general reasons I suggested above re. FreeBSD 5.x, though the details are much more involved. Re. MTA's, Postfix is popular and lots of documentation out there, Exim is also popular- both great MTA's (but that's not my specialty, so worth asking around). > > On page 70 of Greg Lehey's book "The Complete FreeBSD" he states: > ... I now recommend: > Make a single root file system > Do not have a seaparate /usr file system > Do not have a separate /var file system unless you have a good idea > how big it should be. A good example may be a web server, where > (contrary to FreeBSD's recommendations) it is a good idea to put the > web pages on the var file system Well, if this is your first Unix box in some time, and your going to be feeling it all out, I'd highly suggest making a single root filesystem (for example, what if you end up storing your website somewhere in /usr/local?) > > This is a little confusing to me (I haven't done any Unix work since > 95). Can someone recommend a file structure that will support web > hosting and mail serving that is a known good configuration (in > general)? I'll leave the rest of this to the list for lack of time here- and since I just suggested not to setup a complex partition scheme until you have figured out your individual usage patterns for your system. > > Harold Bush > Technologist > digitalBRANDS ? Happy hacking! Rocket, .ike