From anthony.elizondo  Thu Dec  1 10:18:16 2005
From: anthony.elizondo (Anthony Elizondo)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:18:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/30/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
> if you have the linux.ko loaded you should be all set.  i'd check to
> make sure you have linprocfs loaded as well, as i believe the oracle
> installer utilizies it.
>
> and yea, oracle+linux=no fun okan :)

I have linux.ko loaded.

Hmm, I'm stuck. From within the bash shell at /compat/linux/bin/bash I
have awk, sed, and the seperate chown, so I don't think I need to make
those symlinks. I made /compat/linux/bin/arch and it returns "i686".
How does the installer determine the operating system...

Wait, found it. /compat/linux/etc/redhat-release currently holds only one line:

Red Hat Linux release 8.0 (Psyche)

I've added the following line, stolen from Red Hat EL 4:

Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS release 4 (Nahant)

Onward!



From anthony.elizondo  Thu Dec  1 10:21:59 2005
From: anthony.elizondo (Anthony Elizondo)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:21:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot to mention: I'm doing this partly for educational enrichment.
But I am also doing it to show people in my company that FreeBSD can
do what Linux can, sometimes better. I'll be doing some simple
performance testing to see if Oracle+FreeBSD can compete with
Oracle+Linux.

We are an Oracle shop. Sorry, but that part of the equation is, at
this point, not negotiable. :)



From nomadlogic  Thu Dec  1 11:27:43 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:27:43 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512010827lcd0a9a3y71464c842e6c0561@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/1/05, Anthony Elizondo <anthony.elizondo at gmail.com> wrote:
> I forgot to mention: I'm doing this partly for educational enrichment.
> But I am also doing it to show people in my company that FreeBSD can
> do what Linux can, sometimes better. I'll be doing some simple
> performance testing to see if Oracle+FreeBSD can compete with
> Oracle+Linux.
>

well if you are going to do a performance test between two platforms
atleast use a common ground to do the test.  Oracle is seriously tuned
for their supported platforms.  I don't even think they support
RHEL4.x at this point.  PostgreSQL (heh I guess you can tell where
most of stand in the DB wars :) may be a good option for Database
performace benchmarking (MySQL obviously would be another good
application as well).  They are both supported and  well documented
under gnu/linux and *BSD.  Now I'm not saying that *BSD is not able to
run Oracle, but I would read any results gotten from this test with a
grain of salt while trying to compare the functionality and performace
of two platforms.

> We are an Oracle shop. Sorry, but that part of the equation is, at
> this point, not negotiable. :)

Yea, one can't argue with that :)  While you are doing benchmarking it
may be fun to see how oracle behaves on linux and solaris.  Now I
think that would be a more fair comparison.

-pete


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From o_sleep  Thu Dec  1 13:49:41 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:49:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] multiple make buildkernel
Message-ID: <92419483-D467-4C8A-9E27-E98AFA2A1D71@belovedarctos.com>

NYCBuggers,

I have a quad processor box that is fairly slow cpu-wise.  I am using  
the make buildworld -j option (benchmarks so far are 47 min 9 sec at  
j11, 47 min 18 sec at j10,  47 min 5 sec at j9, still playing with  
this).  Buildkernel seems to take an hour and half at least.  I am  
wondering what would be involved to get multiple buildkernel's to run  
for different kernels.  I believe a make buildkernel only writes to / 
usr/obj/usr/src/sys/KERNELNAME.  If this is true, it should be okay  
for multiple buildkernel's to run, right?

Thanks,
Bjorn Nelson



From njt  Thu Dec  1 14:39:44 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:39:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] overloaded webserver: nfs wait issue?
Message-ID: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>

We have a website with moderately high traffic, load balanced among 3
webservers.

During peak traffic times however (when the volume is higher than
normal), the load shoots up to over a 100, and the site crawls to its
knees.

We set up a script to take snapshots of top every 20 seconds. Here is
what it looks like when everthing is normal:

         127
    last pid: 12003;  load averages:  0.93,  1.36,  1.35  up 41+04:22:14    14:00:23
    243 processes: 12 running, 230 sleeping, 1 zombie

    Mem: 222M Active, 74M Inact, 186M Wired, 16M Cache, 111M Buf, 503M Free
    Swap: 2048M Total, 16M Used, 2032M Free


      PID USERNAME     PRI NICE  SIZE    RES STATE    TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
      136 root          32   0  1208K   420K RUN     33.1H  7.28%  7.28% amd
    11918 nobody        -1   0   149M 12292K nfsrcv   0:01  3.00%  1.95% httpd
    11879 nobody         2   0   149M 12292K sbwait   0:01  2.10%  1.37% httpd
    11896 nobody         2   0   148M 11704K RUN      0:00  1.80%  1.17% httpd
    11962 nobody         2   0   147M 10072K RUN      0:00  4.33%  1.12% httpd
    11892 nobody        -1   0   145M  8804K nfsrcv   0:00  1.35%  0.88% httpd
    11935 nobody         2   0   149M 12284K sbwait   0:00  1.73%  0.78% httpd
    11925 nobody         2   0   149M 12288K sbwait   0:00  1.08%  0.68% httpd
    11894 nobody         2   0   149M 12404K sbwait   0:00  0.98%  0.63% httpd
    11937 nobody         2   0   149M 12456K RUN      0:00  1.61%  0.63% httpd
    11954 nobody         2   0   149M 12288K sbwait   0:00  1.88%  0.49% httpd
      191 root           2   0   144M  6632K select  13:23  0.34%  0.34% httpd
    11930 nobody         2   0   145M  8852K sbwait   0:00  0.62%  0.34% httpd
    11872 nobody         2   0   149M 12288K sbwait   0:00  0.45%  0.29% httpd
    11911 nobody         2   0   148M 11604K accept   0:00  0.45%  0.29% httpd
    11893 nobody         2   0   149M 12392K sbwait   0:00  0.38%  0.24% httpd
    11876 nobody         2   0   149M 12264K sbwait   0:00  0.38%  0.24% httpd
    11934 nobody         2   0   149M 12292K accept   0:00  0.41%  0.20% httpd


When the load shoots up, the number of http clients hits Apache's
MaxClients setting, here is what top shows:

    last pid: 12407;  load averages: 87.84, 51.91, 27.52  up 41+04:40:51    14:19:00
    268 processes: 2 running, 266 sleeping

    Mem: 715M Active, 68M Inact, 187M Wired, 29M Cache, 111M Buf, 2100K Free
    Swap: 2048M Total, 272M Used, 1776M Free, 13% Inuse


      PID USERNAME     PRI NICE  SIZE    RES STATE    TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
      136 root          64   0  1208K   376K RUN     33.1H  2.69%  2.69% amd
    11965 nobody        -1   0   149M  6892K nfsrcv   0:05  0.24%  0.24% httpd
    11913 nobody        -1   0   149M  8300K nfsrcv   0:05  0.20%  0.20% httpd
    11878 nobody        -1   0   149M  8572K nfsrcv   0:09  0.15%  0.15% httpd
    11948 nobody        -1   0   149M  8852K nfsrcv   0:07  0.15%  0.15% httpd
    11982 nobody        -1   0   149M  6764K nfsrcv   0:04  0.15%  0.15% httpd
    11912 nobody        -1   0   149M  4912K nfsrcv   0:06  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    12060 nobody        -1   0   149M  7356K nfsrcv   0:05  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    11999 nobody        -1   0   149M  8352K nfsrcv   0:04  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    12122 nobody        -1   0   149M  8296K nfsrcv   0:04  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    12028 nobody        -1   0   149M  8664K nfsrcv   0:04  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    12267 nobody        -1   0   149M  8452K nfsrcv   0:03  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    12270 nobody        -1   0   150M  7156K nfsrcv   0:02  0.10%  0.10% httpd
    11983 nobody        -1   0   149M  8256K nfsrcv   0:09  0.05%  0.05% httpd
    11977 nobody        -1   0   149M  5488K nfsrcv   0:06  0.05%  0.05% httpd
    11952 nobody        -1   0   149M  6704K nfsrcv   0:06  0.05%  0.05% httpd
    11895 nobody        -1   0   148M  4404K nfsrcv   0:06  0.05%  0.05% httpd
    11885 nobody        -1   0   149M  8348K nfsrcv   0:06  0.05%  0.05% httpd

The state of all the httpd prcesses are "nfsrcv". Does this mean the
bottleneck is at the NFS server that hosts the htdocs (and PHP scripts)
or just that the server is low on memory?

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From njt  Thu Dec  1 15:08:17 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:08:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] overloaded webserver: nfs wait issue?
In-Reply-To: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>
References: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051201200817.GI15171@ayvali.org>

* N.J. Thomas <njt at ayvali.org> [2005-12-01 14:39:44 -0500]:
> We have a website with moderately high traffic, load balanced among 3
> webservers.
> 
> During peak traffic times however (when the volume is higher than
> normal), the load shoots up to over a 100, and the site crawls to its
> knees.

I forgot to mention that the webservers are running FreeBSD 4.11 and
Apache 1.3.x.

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From spork  Thu Dec  1 15:17:38 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:17:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] overloaded webserver: nfs wait issue?
In-Reply-To: <20051201200817.GI15171@ayvali.org>
References: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>
	<20051201200817.GI15171@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512011516230.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, N.J. Thomas wrote:

> * N.J. Thomas <njt at ayvali.org> [2005-12-01 14:39:44 -0500]:
>> We have a website with moderately high traffic, load balanced among 3
>> webservers.
>>
>> During peak traffic times however (when the volume is higher than
>> normal), the load shoots up to over a 100, and the site crawls to its
>> knees.

The one thing that sticks out to me is that you go pretty deep into swap 
when the load shoots up.  Do you have room for more RAM?  What kind of 
hardware are we talking about here?

Charles

> I forgot to mention that the webservers are running FreeBSD 4.11 and
> Apache 1.3.x.
>
> Thomas
>
> -- 
> N.J. Thomas
> njt at ayvali.org
> Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From dlavigne6  Thu Dec  1 15:21:27 2005
From: dlavigne6 (dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:21:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] python | snmp help
Message-ID: <20051201202127.DOSU1593.tomts46-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.82]>


I finally have nav (that network monitoring application) up and running on a FreeBSD 6.0 system. Everything works except for the editdb module which keeps failing with this error:

File "/usr/local/nav/lib/python/nav/Snmp.py", line 26, in ?
    import pysnmp.proto.cli.ucd

ImportError: No module named cli.ucd

>From the choices at freshports, I installed the packages that looked like they'd do the trick: py24-snmp and ucd-snmp. I did get a whole bunch of psynmp subdirectories including proto, but it does not have any cli subdirectory...

Anyone have any clue how I can get cli.ucd on a BSD system?

Dru




From njt  Thu Dec  1 15:27:31 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:27:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] overloaded webserver: nfs wait issue?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512011516230.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>
	<20051201200817.GI15171@ayvali.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512011516230.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20051201202731.GB8773@ayvali.org>

* Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> [2005-12-01 15:17:38 -0500]:
> The one thing that sticks out to me is that you go pretty deep into swap 
> when the load shoots up.  Do you have room for more RAM?  What kind of 
> hardware are we talking about here?

We have:

    - one: P4, 3GHz, 1GB RAM
    - one: P3, 1.4GHz, 1GB RAM
    - two: P3, 900MHz, 1GB RAM

The two faster ones are used a bit more by the load balancer..

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From bruno  Thu Dec  1 15:37:42 2005
From: bruno (bruno)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:37:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] overloaded webserver: nfs wait issue?
In-Reply-To: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>
References: <20051201193944.GH15171@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <438F5F16.50409@loftmail.com>

N.J. Thomas wrote:

> The state of all the httpd prcesses are "nfsrcv". Does this mean the
> bottleneck is at the NFS server that hosts the htdocs (and PHP scripts)
> or just that the server is low on memory?

Does the NFS server lock up when you see the high load on clients?
Does the NFS server itself keep working, and can you acccess the server 
via NFS from clients?
Try using server-status in Apache to see what processes are doing, 
although they seem to be waiting for NFS.
Your Apaches are a bit large. What is your MaxClients set to?



From o_sleep  Thu Dec  1 16:19:15 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:19:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] multiple make buildkernel
In-Reply-To: <92419483-D467-4C8A-9E27-E98AFA2A1D71@belovedarctos.com>
References: <92419483-D467-4C8A-9E27-E98AFA2A1D71@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <45C324E7-56A7-41A1-93B3-5929601D63AB@belovedarctos.com>

On Dec 1, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Bjorn Nelson wrote:

> NYCBuggers,
>
> I have a quad processor box that is fairly slow cpu-wise.  I am  
> using the make buildworld -j option (benchmarks so far are 47 min 9  
> sec at j11, 47 min 18 sec at j10,  47 min 5 sec at j9, still  
> playing with this).  Buildkernel seems to take an hour and half at  
> least.  I am wondering what would be involved to get multiple  
> buildkernel's to run for different kernels.  I believe a make  
> buildkernel only writes to /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/KERNELNAME.  If  
> this is true, it should be okay for multiple buildkernel's to run,  
> right?

I just ran four make buildkernels with different kernels  
simultaneously without error, much faster.

-Bjorn



From mspitzer  Thu Dec  1 19:28:20 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:28:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512011628q6667d341kfc47567ac61205eb@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/1/05, Anthony Elizondo <anthony.elizondo at gmail.com> wrote:
> I forgot to mention: I'm doing this partly for educational enrichment.
> But I am also doing it to show people in my company that FreeBSD can
> do what Linux can, sometimes better. I'll be doing some simple
> performance testing to see if Oracle+FreeBSD can compete with
> Oracle+Linux.

Here is the thing you can not compete with linux here, you can get
support(that costs an arm and a leg) for linux and you can not for
freebsd.

marc

--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From tux  Thu Dec  1 22:51:59 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:51:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30512011628q6667d341kfc47567ac61205eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>	<a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30512011628q6667d341kfc47567ac61205eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <438FC4DF.6080401@penguinnetwerx.net>

Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On 12/1/05, Anthony Elizondo <anthony.elizondo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>I forgot to mention: I'm doing this partly for educational enrichment.
>>But I am also doing it to show people in my company that FreeBSD can
>>do what Linux can, sometimes better. I'll be doing some simple
>>performance testing to see if Oracle+FreeBSD can compete with
>>Oracle+Linux.
> 
> 
> Here is the thing you can not compete with linux here, you can get
> support(that costs an arm and a leg) for linux and you can not for
> freebsd.

You can get paid support for FreeBSD, among other places, from FreeBSD 
Mall [1] and from the vendors/consultants listed directly on the FreeBSD 
website [2].  Granted, there's not the same amount of companies 
providing support for FreeBSD as there are for Linux, but it's out 
there.  Hell, we even have a small listing on the NYCBUG website..

[1]http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/support.html?id=xWkr3M5c&mv_arg=mv_arg&mv_pc=10
[2]http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/consult_bycat.html



From o_sleep  Thu Dec  1 23:33:15 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:33:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] multiple make buildkernel
In-Reply-To: <45C324E7-56A7-41A1-93B3-5929601D63AB@belovedarctos.com>
References: <92419483-D467-4C8A-9E27-E98AFA2A1D71@belovedarctos.com>
	<45C324E7-56A7-41A1-93B3-5929601D63AB@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <68F2A682-B776-4A7A-985A-34B938503C8A@belovedarctos.com>

NYCBuggers and self,

On Dec 1, 2005, at 4:19 PM, Bjorn Nelson wrote:

> On Dec 1, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Bjorn Nelson wrote:
>
>> NYCBuggers,
>>
>> I have a quad processor box that is fairly slow cpu-wise.  I am  
>> using the make buildworld -j option (benchmarks so far are 47 min  
>> 9 sec at j11, 47 min 18 sec at j10,  47 min 5 sec at j9, still  
>> playing with this).  Buildkernel seems to take an hour and half at  
>> least.  I am wondering what would be involved to get multiple  
>> buildkernel's to run for different kernels.  I believe a make  
>> buildkernel only writes to /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/KERNELNAME.  If  
>> this is true, it should be okay for multiple buildkernel's to run,  
>> right?
>
> I just ran four make buildkernels with different kernels  
> simultaneously without error, much faster.

I just did an installkernel on an nfs client after doing this and it  
came up fine.  This worked so well, I am adding this to my script  
that locks /usr/src from allowing an install during a build.

use & abuse

====


#!/bin/sh

# Created by: Bjorn Nelson 051128
#
# Description: Build sources while locking them.

# Check for proper usage
if [ ! $1 ]; then
   echo "Usage: $0 numberofthreads"
   exit 1
fi

# Set Your Variables
THREADS=$1
DIRLOC="/usr/src"
CATLOC="/bin/cat"
RMLOC="/bin/rm"
TOUCHLOC="/usr/bin/touch"
DATELOC="/bin/date"
MAKELOC="/usr/bin/make"
LOGDIR="/var/log"
MAKEFILE_NAME="BSDmakefile"
LOCKFILE_NAME="BUILDING"
DORUN="TRUE"
KERNEL_LIST="SMP GENERIC SMPPAE CARP SMPCARP PAELOCAL"

# Start "here" document to supercede /usr/src/Makefile
$CATLOC << EOF > $DIRLOC/$MAKEFILE_NAME

.if exists(${DIRLOC}/${LOCKFILE_NAME}) && empty(BUILDOVERRIDE)
.error ${DIRLOC}/${LOCKFILE_NAME} file exists. Cancelling install.
.else
.include <Makefile>
.endif

EOF

# Lock sources
$TOUCHLOC $DIRLOC/$LOCKFILE_NAME

# Start buildworld while overriding lock
echo "buildworld Started: `$DATELOC`" >> $LOGDIR/buildworld.out
if [ $DORUN ]; then
   $MAKELOC -C $DIRLOC -j $THREADS buildworld BUILDOVERRIDE=TRUE >>  
$LOGDIR/build
world.out 2> /var/log/buildworld.err
else
echo "Make buildworld skipped"
fi
echo "buildworld Completed: `$DATELOC`" >> $LOGDIR/buildworld.out

# Start buildkernel while overriding lock
# Running multiple builds simultaneously.  This isn't supported but
# is much faster and easier to manage

# Start buildkernels in a subshell simultaneously for performance gain
for i in $KERNEL_LIST
do
(
echo "buildkernel Started: `$DATELOC`" >> $LOGDIR/buildkernel-${i}.out
if [ $DORUN ]; then
   $MAKELOC buildkernel -C $DIRLOC BUILDOVERRIDE=TRUE KERNCONF=${i}>>  
$LOGDIR/bui
ldkernel-${i}.out 2> /var/log/buildkernel-${i}.err
else
echo "Make buildkernel skipped"
sleep 10
echo "Done"
fi
echo "buildkernel Completed: `$DATELOC`" >> $LOGDIR/buildkernel-${i}.out
) &
done

# Wait for child process to finish before removing lock
wait

# Unlock sources
echo "Unlock $DIRLOC"
$RMLOC $DIRLOC/$LOCKFILE_NAME





From mspitzer  Fri Dec  2 09:55:53 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:55:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <438FC4DF.6080401@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30512011628q6667d341kfc47567ac61205eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<438FC4DF.6080401@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512020655t3917461ch4d7c5ba9f3f248ae@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/1/05, Kevin Reiter <tux at penguinnetwerx.net> wrote:
> Marc Spitzer wrote:
> > On 12/1/05, Anthony Elizondo <anthony.elizondo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I forgot to mention: I'm doing this partly for educational enrichment.
> >>But I am also doing it to show people in my company that FreeBSD can
> >>do what Linux can, sometimes better. I'll be doing some simple
> >>performance testing to see if Oracle+FreeBSD can compete with
> >>Oracle+Linux.
> >
> >
> > Here is the thing you can not compete with linux here, you can get
> > support(that costs an arm and a leg) for linux and you can not for
> > freebsd.
>
> You can get paid support for FreeBSD, among other places, from FreeBSD
> Mall [1] and from the vendors/consultants listed directly on the FreeBSD
> website [2].  Granted, there's not the same amount of companies
> providing support for FreeBSD as there are for Linux, but it's out
> there.  Hell, we even have a small listing on the NYCBUG website..

I am sorry, I was talking about support for oracle from oracle.

marc

>
> [1]http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/support.html?id=xWkr3M5c&mv_arg=mv_arg&mv_pc=10
> [2]http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/consult_bycat.html
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From tux  Fri Dec  2 14:15:41 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:15:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30512020655t3917461ch4d7c5ba9f3f248ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>	
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>	
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>	
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>	
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>	
	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>	
	<a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>	
	<8c50a3c30512011628q6667d341kfc47567ac61205eb@mail.gmail.com>	
	<438FC4DF.6080401@penguinnetwerx.net>
	<8c50a3c30512020655t3917461ch4d7c5ba9f3f248ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43909D5D.6060501@penguinnetwerx.net>

Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On 12/1/05, Kevin Reiter <tux at penguinnetwerx.net> wrote:
> 
>>Marc Spitzer wrote:
>>
>>>On 12/1/05, Anthony Elizondo <anthony.elizondo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I forgot to mention: I'm doing this partly for educational enrichment.
>>>>But I am also doing it to show people in my company that FreeBSD can
>>>>do what Linux can, sometimes better. I'll be doing some simple
>>>>performance testing to see if Oracle+FreeBSD can compete with
>>>>Oracle+Linux.
>>>
>>>
>>>Here is the thing you can not compete with linux here, you can get
>>>support(that costs an arm and a leg) for linux and you can not for
>>>freebsd.
>>
>>You can get paid support for FreeBSD, among other places, from FreeBSD
>>Mall [1] and from the vendors/consultants listed directly on the FreeBSD
>>website [2].  Granted, there's not the same amount of companies
>>providing support for FreeBSD as there are for Linux, but it's out
>>there.  Hell, we even have a small listing on the NYCBUG website..
> 
> 
> I am sorry, I was talking about support for oracle from oracle.

Sorry, I thought you were saying you couldn't get paid support for FreeBSD (which 
struck me as odd, coming from you..)

Kev


-- 
It said "use Linux 2.4 kernel or better" so I installed FreeBSD.  Now everything 
runs better.  Why didn't they just tell me to do that to begin with?




From jbaltz  Fri Dec  2 14:31:39 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:31:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <4390A11B.3080708@3phasecomputing.com>

On 11/30/2005 1:56 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> On Wed 2005.11.30 at 13:49 -0500, Anthony Elizondo wrote: 
>>I don't believe there is a good how-to for installing Oracle 10g on
>>FreeBSD 6.0. I will venture to make one.
> if this exercise is for educational purposes, go for it. however, for
> anything that you ever so slightly care about, i would advise against
> oracle+freebsd, or heck oracle+linux on most days.

Oracle+linux is at least *supported* by Oracle -- they'll help you get 
it running. Oracle+FreeBSD is "you're on your own".

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From mspitzer  Fri Dec  2 17:05:26 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:05:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <43909D5D.6060501@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<64C4B21A-98E9-47B7-A017-644AE31FA16F@tbwachiat.com>
	<a49e62c80511301218t7536c45ag43c0f57b2835a487@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000511301601v1e82291o3efb55bd0cc3715e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010718u74945bd3kfe871bf24d7a4d5e@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512010721y353c5133mfa9dbe4cde14796f@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30512011628q6667d341kfc47567ac61205eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<438FC4DF.6080401@penguinnetwerx.net>
	<8c50a3c30512020655t3917461ch4d7c5ba9f3f248ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<43909D5D.6060501@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512021405x346a2d8fjcad71f6a3f2d5b16@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/2/05, Kevin Reiter <tux at penguinnetwerx.net> wrote:
> Marc Spitzer wrote:
> > I am sorry, I was talking about support for oracle from oracle.
>
> Sorry, I thought you were saying you couldn't get paid support for FreeBSD (which
> struck me as odd, coming from you..)
>

hell pay me money and I will support freebsd.

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From o_sleep  Fri Dec  2 17:14:35 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:14:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] local ports
Message-ID: <366A71CE-D76B-4AD8-89DE-33997930B335@belovedarctos.com>

NYCBuggers,

I just posted this to the freebsd-arch mailing list.  What is  
everyone's thought on this?

"I propose a new port category called local or site.  This would not  
get updated with the cvsup, but would allow people to have a place to  
put ports that they want to keep internal to their site.  I am  
currently exporting a ports tree to a bunch of other hosts and it  
would be handy if I could just put ports for our proprietary apps in  
there and not worry about keeping a forked bsd.port.mk."

-Bjorn Nelson



From mspitzer  Fri Dec  2 17:16:54 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:16:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <4390A11B.3080708@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<4390A11B.3080708@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512021416w8bba96eg39a2ef695e11fb2f@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/2/05, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com> wrote:
> On 11/30/2005 1:56 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> > On Wed 2005.11.30 at 13:49 -0500, Anthony Elizondo wrote:
> >>I don't believe there is a good how-to for installing Oracle 10g on
> >>FreeBSD 6.0. I will venture to make one.
> > if this exercise is for educational purposes, go for it. however, for
> > anything that you ever so slightly care about, i would advise against
> > oracle+freebsd, or heck oracle+linux on most days.
>
> Oracle+linux is at least *supported* by Oracle -- they'll help you get
> it running. Oracle+FreeBSD is "you're on your own".
>

getting it running is not what scares me so much as *keeping* it
running.  The last thing I ever want to hear is, from any vendor, is
"Please put your box in a supported configuration so that we can start
to work on why your ecommerce site is down during Christmas shopping
season" etc.  To knowingly put a client or employer in that position
is wrong pure and simple, yes even if they agree and want to do it we
should know better.

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From mspitzer  Fri Dec  2 17:19:31 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:19:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] local ports
In-Reply-To: <366A71CE-D76B-4AD8-89DE-33997930B335@belovedarctos.com>
References: <366A71CE-D76B-4AD8-89DE-33997930B335@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512021419j532af9c6n3fbafc12c3be0358@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/2/05, Bjorn Nelson <o_sleep at belovedarctos.com> wrote:
> NYCBuggers,
>
> I just posted this to the freebsd-arch mailing list.  What is
> everyone's thought on this?
>
> "I propose a new port category called local or site.  This would not
> get updated with the cvsup, but would allow people to have a place to
> put ports that they want to keep internal to their site.  I am
> currently exporting a ports tree to a bunch of other hosts and it
> would be handy if I could just put ports for our proprietary apps in
> there and not worry about keeping a forked bsd.port.mk."

Sounds like one of those really simple and useful ideas tha make
people say "I could have though of that"

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From okan  Fri Dec  2 17:42:44 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:42:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] local ports
In-Reply-To: <366A71CE-D76B-4AD8-89DE-33997930B335@belovedarctos.com>
References: <366A71CE-D76B-4AD8-89DE-33997930B335@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <20051202224244.GA96973@yinaska.pair.com>

On Fri 2005.12.02 at 17:14 -0500, Bjorn Nelson wrote:
> NYCBuggers,
> 
> I just posted this to the freebsd-arch mailing list.  What is  
> everyone's thought on this?
> 
> "I propose a new port category called local or site.  This would not  
> get updated with the cvsup, but would allow people to have a place to  
> put ports that they want to keep internal to their site.  I am  
> currently exporting a ports tree to a bunch of other hosts and it  
> would be handy if I could just put ports for our proprietary apps in  
> there and not worry about keeping a forked bsd.port.mk."

echo mystuff >> ${PORTSDIR}/.cvsignore

then have fun in ${PORTSDIR}/mystuff (by the way, openbsd has this by
default)

cheers,
okan



From tillman  Fri Dec  2 18:46:26 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:46:26 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] -current moved from AMD to Celeron,
	can't build anymore
Message-ID: <20051202234626.GC39036@seekingfire.com>

My old AMD 1800 box was starting to spontaneously reboot just a little
too often for my taste (it appears to be either a RAM or CPU problem) so
I decided to transfer the hard drive to a Celeron 800 box I had handy.

Strangely, the box dumps coreand reboots about 3/4 of hte way through
the boot sequence. Forcing single-user mode, I'm able to bring up the
basics (networking, sshd, etc) and poke around a bike.

I started to suspect that it was my old make.conf that was causing the
problem -- the optimizations may not be appropriate for the Celeron.
This tentative diagnosis was backed up when I tried to perform a
buildworld:


--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> stage 1.2: bootstrap tools
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /usr/src; MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp  INSTALL="sh
/usr/src/tools/install.sh"
PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/legacy/usr/sbin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/legacy/usr/bin:/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/legacy/usr/games:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin
WORLDTMP=/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp  MAKEFLAGS="-m /usr/src/tools/build/mk  -m
/usr/src/share/mk" make -f Makefile.inc1  DESTDIR=  BOOTSTRAPPING=700006
-DNO_HTML -DNO_INFO -DNO_LINT -DNO_MAN -DNO_NLS -DNO_PIC  -DNO_PROFILE
-DNO_SHARED -DNO_CPU_CFLAGS -DNO_WARNS bootstrap-tools
===> games/fortune/strfile (obj,depend,all,install)
/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/src/games/fortune/strfile created for
/usr/src/games/fortune/strfile
rm -f .depend
mkdep -f .depend -a    -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/legacy/usr/include
/usr/src/games/fortune/strfile/strfile.c
echo strfile: /usr/lib/libc.a
/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/legacy/usr/lib/libegacy.a >> .depend
cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe
-I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/legacy/usr/include -c
/usr/src/games/fortune/strfile/strfile.c
/usr/src/games/fortune/strfile/strfile.c: In function `add_offset':
/usr/src/games/fortune/strfile/strfile.c:346: internal compiler error:
Illegal instruction: 4
Please submit a full bug report,
with preprocessed source if appropriate.
See <URL:http://gcc.gnu.org/bugs.html> for instructions.
*** Error code 1


Illegal instructions, that doesn't look good.

The make.conf looked like this:

KERNCONF=BACKFORTY GENERIC
CPUTYPE?=i686
NO_PROFILE= true # Avoid compiling profiled libraries


Does that sound like a reasonable diagnosis? Are there ways to work
around this problem? (I have the 6.0 disc1 CD in the CD-ROM drive,
perhaps I could boot, chroot and build from there? If so, any pointers
as to how?)

-T


-- 
The greatest and most important problems of life cannot be solved.  They can 
only be outgrown.
	 - Sister Jessica, private journal entry



From ike  Sun Dec  4 15:46:53 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:46:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
Message-ID: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

I've got 2 brand-spankin' new RAID cards I'd like to ditch, they're  
not that smooth to use with FreeBSD (but reported rock-solid for  
OpenBSD use):

'3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp

4 port SATA low-profile, raid 0,1,5,10,JOBD

Makes me sad, these are way nicer cards than the Adaptec models I've  
been using (and will continue to use for now).

--
I'm going to return them regardless, just thought I'd shout out here  
to see if someone else wants to buy them- or trade them outright for  
2 of the Adaptec models I use.

Email me offlist if interested.

Rocket-
.ike





From george  Sun Dec  4 15:50:55 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:50:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <439356AF.6060709@sddi.net>

Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
> 
> I've got 2 brand-spankin' new RAID cards I'd like to ditch, they're  not 
> that smooth to use with FreeBSD (but reported rock-solid for  OpenBSD use):
> 
> '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
> http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp
> 
> 4 port SATA low-profile, raid 0,1,5,10,JOBD
> 
> Makes me sad, these are way nicer cards than the Adaptec models I've  
> been using (and will continue to use for now).
> 
> -- 
> I'm going to return them regardless, just thought I'd shout out here  to 
> see if someone else wants to buy them- or trade them outright for  2 of 
> the Adaptec models I use.
> 
> Email me offlist if interested.

Do I hear some +1's for a giveway-swap-sell list solelyfor noncommercial 
purposes only with no guarantees?

a small but significant amount of our traffic seems to be around this 
topic...

g



From mohansingh68  Sun Dec  4 16:01:58 2005
From: mohansingh68 (Mohan Singh)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:01:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] how much is too much?
Message-ID: <48d803190512041301q3b55996bvcc222f4a23d07b7c@mail.gmail.com>

$work has about 2 dozen employees, all with windows machines. In addition,
there are about 40 rack servers running FreeBSD, with a couple of Linux ones
in the mix.

A single sysadmin (me) has to take care of all the Unix machines (not
generally a problem), all the webservers (ditto), work as help support (a
big time eater), diagnose Windows issues (a huge time eater), write
documentation, and do other office technical work (pretty much support
anything that runs on electricty).

This is obviously too much work for one person to handle, but how many
additional employees would you think are needed? I'm thinking at least one
more full time admin, plus another junior admin/help desk person.

For those of you who work at similar sized companies, how many IT people do
you have on hand?

MS
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From george  Sun Dec  4 16:05:14 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:05:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] how much is too much?
In-Reply-To: <48d803190512041301q3b55996bvcc222f4a23d07b7c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48d803190512041301q3b55996bvcc222f4a23d07b7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43935A0A.40502@sddi.net>

Mohan Singh wrote:
> $work has about 2 dozen employees, all with windows machines. In 
> addition, there are about 40 rack servers running FreeBSD, with a couple 
> of Linux ones in the mix.
> 
> A single sysadmin (me) has to take care of all the Unix machines (not 
> generally a problem), all the webservers (ditto), work as help support 
> (a big time eater), diagnose Windows issues (a huge time eater), write 
> documentation, and do other office technical work (pretty much support 
> anything that runs on electricty).
> 
> This is obviously too much work for one person to handle, but how many 
> additional employees would you think are needed? I'm thinking at least 
> one more full time admin, plus another junior admin/help desk person.
> 
> For those of you who work at similar sized companies, how many IT people 
> do you have on hand?

Hard question to answer. . .

Certainly getting a help desk person would allow you a lot more free 
time.  I would do that first, then reassess. . .

Users tend to hog up a lot of CPU time. . .

g



From lists  Sun Dec  4 16:57:39 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:57:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <20051204165739.67ce6b60@wit.genoverly.home>

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:49:10 -0800
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
December 2, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Programming MapPoint in .NET
-Monad
-DV Filmmaking: From Start to Finish 
-Makers
-Wireless Hacks, Second Edition
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News
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-New O'Reily Newsletter Topics Available
-UFOs (Ubiquitous Findable Objects)
-User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning 
 Lab Courses--Ends December 31
-What Is Prefactoring?
-Avoid Common Pitfalls in Greasemonkey
-PHP Problems
-TCP Tuning and Network Troubleshooting
-Getting Video Out of Your New iPod--for Cheap!
-An Introduction to Tiger Terminal, Part 5
-What Is Spyware?
-Visual Studio Express 2005: Now Available
-Creating an Application from Scratch, Part 1
-Toughen Forms' Security with an Image
-To Pop or Not To Pop
-Ruby the Rival
-Hibernate for Java SE
-What Is Screencasting
-Inside a Luxury Synth: Creating the Linux-Powered Korg OASYS
-MAKE's Mostly Under $100 Gift Guide 2005
-MAKE on "Attack of the Show"
-Introducing the iPod VR
----------------------------------------------------------------
>From Your Peers
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Linuxfest Northwest 2006 Looking for Speakers--Bellingham, WA


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***Programming MapPoint in .NET
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Chapter 6, "MapPoint Web Service Find APIs," is available online:
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***Monad
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***DV Filmmaking: From Start to Finish 
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***Makers
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***Wireless Hacks, Second Edition
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Wireless technology gives us the flexibility, range and mobility to
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Sample Hacks "Share Your GPS," "Monitor Wireless Links in Linux with
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***Quicken 2006 for Starters: The Missing Manual
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Quicken is one of today's most popular and convenient ways to keep track
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/quickenfstmm/>

Chapter 2, "Accounts and Categories," is available online:
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***Time Management for System Administrators
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This collection of time management tools addresses the very specific
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/timemgmt/>

Chapter 4, "The Cycle System," is available online:
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***Java Enterprise in a Nutshell, Third Edition
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ISBN: 0596101422
Revised and updated for the new 1.4 version of Sun Microsystems Java
Enterprise Edition software, "Java Enterprise in a Nutshell, 3rd 
Edition" is a practical guide for Enterprise Java developers.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/javaentnut3/>

Chapter 18, "JUnit and Cactus," is availavble online:
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***Designing Interfaces
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008031
This convenient resource offers advice on creating user-friendly
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/designinterfaces/>

Chapter 4, "Organizing the Page: Layout of Page Elements" is available
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/designinterfaces/chapter/index.html>


***Photoshop Elements 4 One-on-One
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100981
Revised to cover all the new features of Photoshop Elements 4, this
full-color book / high-definition video DVD package gives new users the
accessible guidance they need to master this powerful but complex
digital imaging program from the ground up, while still providing a
wealth of tips, shortcuts, and secrets that even the most experienced
Photoshop users won't know.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/adobex/>


***Applied Software Project Management
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009488
Whether you're starting a software project from scratch, or fixing an
ailing one, this handy guide is your ticket to success. Written by a
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and patches. Ideal for anyone on a project team.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/appliedprojectmgmt/>

Chapter 3, "Estimation," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/appliedprojectmgmt/chapter/index.html>


***Practical Perforce
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101856
Authored by Perforce's own VP of product technology, "Practical
Perforce" is the ideal complement to the existing product manual. The
book is not only a helpful introduction to Perforce, it's an
enlightening resource for those already familar with this versatile SCM
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engineer, you stand to benefit from the many insider tips and ideas
presented in this convenient guide.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/practicalperforce/>

Chapter 1, "Files in The Depot," and  Chapter 7, "How Software Evolves,"
are available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/practicalperforce/>


***Understanding the Linux Kernel, Third Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596005652
This new edition covers Version 2.6 of the Linux kernel, which has seen
significant changes to nearly every kernel subsystem, particularly in
the areas of memory management and block devices. "Understanding the
Linux Kernel" provides a guided tour of the code that forms the core of
all Linux operating systems. Beyond the functioning of the code, the
book explains the theoretical underpinnings behind Linux, and many
other operating systems.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/understandlk/>


***Wicked Cool Java
Publisher: No Starch Press
ISBN: 1593270615
Wicked Cool Java contains 101 fun, interesting, and useful ways to get
more out of Java. This isn't intended as a Java tutorial--it's targeted
at developers and system architects who have some basic Java knowledge
but may not be familiar with the wide range of libraries available. Full
of example code and ideas for combining them in useful projects, this
book is perfect for hobbyists, while professionals will find tips and
open-source projects to enhance their code and make their jobs easier.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270615/index.html>


***Linux Multimedia Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100760
This Hacks book gives you the technical chops to enjoy the considerable
multimedia options available on the Linux platform. Learn step-by-step
how to do cool things with images, audio, and video. Included are tips
and tricks for connecting to iPods, creating MP3s and Oggs, watching and
making DVDs, turning your Linux box into a Tivo ala MythTV, and much
more. 
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxmmhks/>


================================================
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***O'Reilly at LISA 2005, San Diego, CA--December 4-9
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***O'Reilly at ApacheCon 2005, San Diego, CA--December 10-14
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***New O'Reily Newsletters Topics Available-
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***UFOs (Ubiquitous Findable Objects) 
The emergence of ubiquitous findable objects (UFOs) enables us to tag
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space and time. In this fascinating read, bestselling author Peter
Morville illustrates the power of the future presence of UFOs with real
examples, such as Plazes, Meetro, Dodgeball, GPS, RFID, flocking
patterns, anomaly detection, and more. Peter is the author of "Ambient
Findability."
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/11/17/ubiquitous-findable-objects.html>


***User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning 
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As an O'Reilly User Group member, you save on all the courses in the
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***What Is Prefactoring?
You've probably heard of Refactoring (the process of restructuring code
without changing its external behavior), but what is Prefactoring? Ken
Pugh provides the answer, then covers some of the guidelines to
prefactoring in the areas of Extreme Abstraction, Extreme Separation,
and Extreme Readability. Ken is the author of "Prefactoring."
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/11/15/what-is-prefactoring.html>


***Avoid Common Pitfalls in Greasemonkey 
Mark Pilgrim walks through a major security concern that prompted the
architectural changes in Greasemonkey 0.5, and then provides solutions
to ten common pitfalls to avoid when writing Greasemonkey scripts. The
hacks he describes, as well as the underlying history of the breach in
Greasemonkey 0.3's security, provide a useful lesson on designing secure
user scripts. Mark is the author of "Greasemonkey Hacks."
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/11/01/avoid-common-greasemonkey-pitfalls.html>

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***PHP Problems 
Noel Davis looks at problems in PHP, Emacs, ftpd-ssl, Lynx, Roaring
Penguin pppoe, OpenVPN, RAR, Fedora Core X-Chat, HP-UX xterm, libungif4,
and GpsDrive.
<http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2005/11/18/security-alerts.html>


***TCP Tuning and Network Troubleshooting 
Information doesn't travel across networks in one big chunk--it goes in
little packets wrapped in packets wrapped in packets. Sure, you know
that, but did you know that a bit of measuring and a bit of tweaking can
improve your networking performance by two orders of magnitude?
<http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/11/17/tcp_tuning.html>

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***Getting Video out of Your New iPod--for Cheap! 
Yes, you can spend extra dollars for Apple's sleek white video cable for
TV connectivity, or you can hack your own together for cheap.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/11/18/video-ipod.html>


***An Introduction to Tiger Terminal, Part 5 
In Part 5, Mary Norbury-Glaser looks at how Tiger Mac OS X runs
regularly scheduled commands and scripts to execute recurring jobs, like
system maintenance and backups. She compares the "old" way, using the
Unix tool called cron (for chronological), with the new Tiger method of
using the launched daemon.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/11/15/terminal5.html>

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***What Is Spyware?
As business use of the internet has grown up, so has business abuse.
>From this incubator emerged spyware--the grownup cousin to viruses and
worms, whose intent is not simply to have fun at someone else's expense
but to make money at someone else's expense. Anton Chuvakin looks at
what spyware is, how it works, and what you can do to keep your systems
free of spyware infection.
<http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/11/22/what-is-spyware.html>


***Visual Studio Express 2005: Now Available
Microsoft's Visual Studio Express software is now available as a free
download...Kevin Yank tells you why you should
grab a copy to develop your ASP.NET 2.0 web sites.
<http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/11/07/visual-studio-2005-express-editions-are-free-downloads/> 


***Creating an Application from Scratch, Part 1 
Watch over Jesse Liberty's virtual shoulder as he documents his creation
of a real-world application from scratch. In real time--that is, as he
develops it.
<http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/11/14/creating-an-application-from-scratch-part1.html>

---------------------
Web
---------------------
***Toughen Forms' Security with an Image
Keep your web site and server secure from "brute force attacks" by
requiring visitors to type in a code embedded into an image. 
<http://www.sitepoint.com/article/toughen-forms-security-image>


***To Pop or Not To Pop
If you run or own a content web site, should you be using pop-ups to
monetize your traffic? Chris Beasley takes a look at the pros and cons
of pop-up ad networks.
<http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/11/08/to-pop-or-not-to-pop/>

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Ruby the Rival 
Bruce Tate's Beyond Java picks Ruby as the front-runner among languages
that could succeed Java among enterprise developers. But what's so great
about Ruby--and frankly, what's wrong with Java? We asked some top Java
bloggers, authors, and developers what they think of Ruby's challenge.
<http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/11/16/ruby-the-rival.html>


***Hibernate for Java SE 
For many, Hibernate goes hand in hand with Java EE as part of their
enterprise development strategy. But what if you need access to your
data access objects outside of the EE container? Jason Lee offers some
strategy for getting and using a Hibernate session from Java SE code.
<http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/11/16/hibernate-for-java-se.html>

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***What Is Screencasting
Whether it's for a tutorial, a how-to, or a software review, if you have
a product you'd like to explain to other users, screencasting???the art
of screen recording with audio narration???can be both easier and more
effective than written descriptions accompanied by static screen shots.
Jon Udell walks you through how to make, edit, and deliver compelling
screencasts.
<http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/11/16/what-is-screencasting.html>


***Inside a Luxury Synth: Creating the Linux-Powered Korg OASYS
Defying the trend toward ever-cheaper plastic gear and soulless soft
synths, this super-keyboard is designed to rock the world for years to
come. Create Digital Music's Peter Kirn goes behind the scenes at Korg
USA to learn how the designers finally built the dream instrument they'd
been planning for 15 years.
<http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/11/09/inside-the-korg-oasys.html>

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***MAKE's Mostly Under $100 Gift Guide 2005
MAKE proudly presents a gift guide for the holiday season with listings
you certainly won't find anywhere else. MAKE staffers and pals sent in
their favorite maker-friendly gift ideas for mostly under $100, as well
as Editor Phillip Torrone's personal picks...happy holidays! May all of 
your warranties be voided!
<http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/12/makes_mostly_under_100_gift_gu.html>


***MAKE on "Attack of the Show"
MAKE Editor Phil Torrone was on G4's "Attack of the Show" sharing the
PEZ MP3 player, the "Fly" pen computer, and homemade high-speed flash
photography. Here's a QuickTime of the segment:
<http://downloads.oreilly.com/make/g402.mov>


***Introducing the iPod VR
MAKE wanted to see if the new iPod video would foster a new market for
virtual reality/LCD goggles. Here are the photos of the iPod video,
homemade battery extender, travel case, and LCD goggles:
<http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/11/introducingthe_ipod_vr.html>


***Give the Gift of MAKE Magazine--Special Offer for UG Members
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================================================
>From Your Peers
================================================
***Linuxfest Northwest 2006 Looking for Speakers--Bellingham, WA 
Linuxfest Northwest 2006 (April 29, 2006), is looking for presentations
on all aspects of Linux and open source technology. They welcome both
introductory lectures and advanced discussions on software development,
database, server application, networking, and system administration
topics. They also invite those using Linux and open source applications
to give talks about their experiences and lessons learned. Lecture slots
are 90-minute with presenters speaking for 45 to 60 minutes followed by 
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For details see:
<http://linuxfestnorthwest.org/present.html>


***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user
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Until next time--


-- 

Michael



From spork  Sun Dec  4 17:40:48 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 17:40:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> I've got 2 brand-spankin' new RAID cards I'd like to ditch, they're not that 
> smooth to use with FreeBSD (but reported rock-solid for OpenBSD use):
>
> '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
> http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp

Ike,

Just curious what issues you have with these.  I have a 8506-4LP in a 6.0 
box I'm testing, and it's been stable.  Also have one in a production 
4.11 box and have been very happy with it.  Not a speed demon though on 
the 6.0 box, and it's still under "giant".

Charles

> 4 port SATA low-profile, raid 0,1,5,10,JOBD
>
> Makes me sad, these are way nicer cards than the Adaptec models I've been 
> using (and will continue to use for now).
>
> --
> I'm going to return them regardless, just thought I'd shout out here to see 
> if someone else wants to buy them- or trade them outright for 2 of the 
> Adaptec models I use.
>
> Email me offlist if interested.
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From mspitzer  Sun Dec  4 17:46:28 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 17:46:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] how much is too much?
In-Reply-To: <43935A0A.40502@sddi.net>
References: <48d803190512041301q3b55996bvcc222f4a23d07b7c@mail.gmail.com>
	<43935A0A.40502@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512041446y35981554t9d26850923bbb88c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/4/05, George R. <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> Mohan Singh wrote:
> > $work has about 2 dozen employees, all with windows machines. In
> > addition, there are about 40 rack servers running FreeBSD, with a couple
> > of Linux ones in the mix.
> >
> > A single sysadmin (me) has to take care of all the Unix machines (not
> > generally a problem), all the webservers (ditto), work as help support
> > (a big time eater), diagnose Windows issues (a huge time eater), write
> > documentation, and do other office technical work (pretty much support
> > anything that runs on electricty).
> >
> > This is obviously too much work for one person to handle, but how many
> > additional employees would you think are needed? I'm thinking at least
> > one more full time admin, plus another junior admin/help desk person.
> >
> > For those of you who work at similar sized companies, how many IT people
> > do you have on hand?
>
> Hard question to answer. . .
>
> Certainly getting a help desk person would allow you a lot more free
> time.  I would do that first, then reassess. . .
>
> Users tend to hog up a lot of CPU time. . .

Seconded, you need a helpdesk/desktop support guy.  Another thing you
need is a ticketing system, for a few reasons:
1: things do not get dropped, although they may sit in the queue for ever
2: you can generate reports, this is how I spent my week boss
3: makes the case for hiring a relatively cheap desktop admin easier
to show, see 2
4: if you use it correctly builds a knowledge base for you and users to consult
5: keeps track of all you do so that you can ask for raises with more
confidence, this is what I did boss
6: once people get used to putting tickets in you get larger blocks of
time when the phone does not ring.  So you get more done.

we use remedy at work and RT seems very popular also


marc
>
> g
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From ike  Mon Dec  5 08:04:50 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:04:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <439356AF.6060709@sddi.net>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
	<439356AF.6060709@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <774FF2E0-1350-4FB6-A8DF-A2FABEC03E54@lesmuug.org>

Wordup George, All,

On Dec 4, 2005, at 3:50 PM, George R. wrote:

> Isaac Levy wrote:
>> <snip>
>> I'm going to return them regardless, just thought I'd shout out  
>> here  to see if someone else wants to buy them- or trade them  
>> outright for  2 of the Adaptec models I use.
>> Email me offlist if interested.
>
> Do I hear some +1's for a giveway-swap-sell list solelyfor  
> noncommercial purposes only with no guarantees?
>
> a small but significant amount of our traffic seems to be around  
> this topic...

-1, here's why:

- It's a small amount of traffic, not much list noise IMHO.

- It's only signifigant because people actually *read* this list,  
dunno about you, but I think folks are usually already on WAY MORE  
LISTS than one can keep up with...

My .02?

Rocket-
.ike





From nomadlogic  Mon Dec  5 11:17:30 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:17:30 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] how much is too much?
In-Reply-To: <48d803190512041301q3b55996bvcc222f4a23d07b7c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48d803190512041301q3b55996bvcc222f4a23d07b7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512050817j60e9a088v4ad203a6cce9a2ab@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/4/05, Mohan Singh <mohansingh68 at gmail.com> wrote:
> $work has about 2 dozen employees, all with windows machines. In addition,
> there are about 40 rack servers running FreeBSD, with a couple of Linux ones
> in the mix.
>
> A single sysadmin (me) has to take care of all the Unix machines (not
> generally a problem), all the webservers (ditto), work as help support (a
> big time eater), diagnose Windows issues (a huge time eater), write
> documentation, and do other office technical work (pretty much support
> anything that runs on electricty).
>
> This is obviously too much work for one person to handle, but how many
> additional employees would you think are needed? I'm thinking at least one
> more full time admin, plus another junior admin/help desk person.
>
> For those of you who work at similar sized companies, how many IT people do
> you have on hand?
>
> MS
>


I was in a very similar situation a while back.  In retrospect I think
the most important thing to tak care of first is creating a rigid
support policy before adding any more heads to your group.  this way
if you develop the support pipeline (helpdesk ticketing system, or
whatever) it may be easier to quantify how many heads you need to add 
when asking the money people for support.  You may also find that by
having a ridgid structure in place may actually help things enough
that you need less people that you would have thought (a good HD
ticketing system can be self documenting, especially in a small
environment).

-p



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From kacanski_s  Mon Dec  5 12:25:44 2005
From: kacanski_s (Aleksandar Kacanski)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:25:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] how much is too much?
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512050817j60e9a088v4ad203a6cce9a2ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051205172545.71002.qmail@web53605.mail.yahoo.com>

Honestly, I don't support ticketing systems for
environment like yours. I would say that ticketing
system does help in strictly service driven
environments with a quick turn-around time and well
defined procedures. (e.a. ISP's). I do like and use
project management systems and collaboration systems,
where projects could and should be assigned, ideas
bounced and solutions posted for future recall.
This approach, does support idea of getting users
involved and helps them learn and fix their own
problems. It also requires from you and staff to write
fast and post lots of info, most if it at the offset
of the new policy. Software and hardware policies are
important part, but you need to have a boss who
actually have a spine to say no to user base and their
bosses. In organizations that support massive 
ghosting procedures and keep everything important on
the server side, user support becomes ratter trivial
thing, specially when you have on-line source of
information for users (wiki's, email, www ....)
I do currently support user base of 150 with junior
admin and myself. But there is also a big difference
between educational environment and industry...
-:)
hope this helps,
/s

--- pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/4/05, Mohan Singh <mohansingh68 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > $work has about 2 dozen employees, all with
> windows machines. In addition,
> > there are about 40 rack servers running FreeBSD,
> with a couple of Linux ones
> > in the mix.
> >
> > A single sysadmin (me) has to take care of all the
> Unix machines (not
> > generally a problem), all the webservers (ditto),
> work as help support (a
> > big time eater), diagnose Windows issues (a huge
> time eater), write
> > documentation, and do other office technical work
> (pretty much support
> > anything that runs on electricty).
> >
> > This is obviously too much work for one person to
> handle, but how many
> > additional employees would you think are needed?
> I'm thinking at least one
> > more full time admin, plus another junior
> admin/help desk person.
> >
> > For those of you who work at similar sized
> companies, how many IT people do
> > you have on hand?
> >
> > MS
> >
> 
> 
> I was in a very similar situation a while back.  In
> retrospect I think
> the most important thing to tak care of first is
> creating a rigid
> support policy before adding any more heads to your
> group.  this way
> if you develop the support pipeline (helpdesk
> ticketing system, or
> whatever) it may be easier to quantify how many
> heads you need to add 
> when asking the money people for support.  You may
> also find that by
> having a ridgid structure in place may actually help
> things enough
> that you need less people that you would have
> thought (a good HD
> ticketing system can be self documenting, especially
> in a small
> environment).
> 
> -p
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ~~o0OO0o~~
> Pete Wright
> www.nycbug.org
> NYC's *BSD User Group
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce
> lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From jbaltz  Mon Dec  5 12:31:41 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:31:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30512021416w8bba96eg39a2ef695e11fb2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051130185657.GD63532@yinaska.pair.com>
	<4390A11B.3080708@3phasecomputing.com>
	<8c50a3c30512021416w8bba96eg39a2ef695e11fb2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4394797D.2040405@3phasecomputing.com>

On 12/2/2005 5:16 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On 12/2/05, Jerry B. Altzman <jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com> wrote:
>>Oracle+linux is at least *supported* by Oracle -- they'll help you get
>>it running. Oracle+FreeBSD is "you're on your own".
> getting it running is not what scares me so much as *keeping* it
> running.  The last thing I ever want to hear is, from any vendor, is
> "Please put your box in a supported configuration so that we can start
> to work on why your ecommerce site is down during Christmas shopping
> season" etc.  To knowingly put a client or employer in that position
> is wrong pure and simple, yes even if they agree and want to do it we
> should know better.

Agreed -- and Oracle, love them or hate them, publishes configurations 
that they *will* support, it includes several Linux distros (RHES and 
SuSE, if my memory isn't faulty).

So: if you want to run Oracle, make sure you're running a system they 
support (solaris, RHES) and not something offbrand.

> marc

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From anthony.elizondo  Mon Dec  5 16:08:36 2005
From: anthony.elizondo (Anthony Elizondo)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:08:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a49e62c80512051308v6ebae690nae01e3205f645593@mail.gmail.com>

Well, you guys warned me, but I wouldn't listen. :)

The installer wants to do all sorts of things like:

cat /proc/cpuinfo
cat /proc/meminfo

These are easy, I just made symlinks to the Linux versions in /compat/linux.

However, it wants to do stupider stuff like:

cat /proc/swaps
cat /proc/sys/kernel/shmmax

And the killers:

error: cannot open Packages index using db3 - No such file or directory (2)
error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
ipcs: illegal option -- l
usage: ipcs [-abcmopqstyMQST] [-C corefile] [-N namelist] [-u user]

I installed db3 port, but that didn't help. And I have no idea how to
fix the ipcs problem. Perhaps I can somehow install the linux version
of ipcs?



From nomadlogic  Mon Dec  5 16:38:52 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:38:52 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Oracle 10g on FreeBSD 6.0
In-Reply-To: <a49e62c80512051308v6ebae690nae01e3205f645593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a49e62c80511301049w351d3c12jb9205d60c2992c13@mail.gmail.com>
	<a49e62c80512051308v6ebae690nae01e3205f645593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512051338r2802f63fwf5b0a94a8e18713@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/5/05, Anthony Elizondo <anthony.elizondo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, you guys warned me, but I wouldn't listen. :)
>
> The installer wants to do all sorts of things like:
>
> cat /proc/cpuinfo
> cat /proc/meminfo
>
> These are easy, I just made symlinks to the Linux versions in /compat/linux.
>
> However, it wants to do stupider stuff like:
>
> cat /proc/swaps
> cat /proc/sys/kernel/shmmax
>
> And the killers:
>
> error: cannot open Packages index using db3 - No such file or directory (2)
> error: cannot open Packages database in /var/lib/rpm
> ipcs: illegal option -- l
> usage: ipcs [-abcmopqstyMQST] [-C corefile] [-N namelist] [-u user]
>
> I installed db3 port, but that didn't help. And I have no idea how to
> fix the ipcs problem. Perhaps I can somehow install the linux version
> of ipcs?

looks like you are having a problem with how rpm is being called. 
have you tried installing this via chroot'd lin. environment.  you
also may want to check the RPM docs and see what envrionmental
settings you can set to help the install script find the correct
path's (i.e. the rpm db etc...).

-p



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From tux  Mon Dec  5 22:12:50 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:12:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD @ NJIT
Message-ID: <439501B2.9060809@penguinnetwerx.net>

http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/index.htm

It's good to see some positive stuff being taught at respected 
institutions, but sometimes ya gotta wonder...

I'd sure like to know exactly what certification they're talking about 
when they mention FreeBSD, though:

"The continued exploitations of security holes in the Microsoft Windows 
operating systems have produced an obvious need for more secure software."

[Wasn't BSD around before Mickeysoft?]

"The Berkeley Software Distribution, developed by the Computer Science 
Research Group at the University of California, has developed into the 
most secure open source codebase in the world. BSD derivative operating 
systems, including OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and Apple's Macintosh OS X, 
are some of the most security-conscious operating systems in the world. 
They are all based on the open-source standards produced by the original 
BSD distributions.

In the business world, the need for competent personnel who are familiar 
with the open source concept and availability of programs has never been 
higher --it's rate of growth shows no sign of diminishing either now or 
in the future

The path to success in the professional world of Information Technology 
leads straight through the world of open source and open standards. 
There has never been a better time to become certified in these 
important technology areas

Complete the three stage training and receive certification in open 
source unix operating systems. The three courses are: 1 Fundamentals of 
Open Source Operating Systems 2.Administration I 3. Administration II 
The courses begin via eLearning every 4 weeks, and in-class each Fall 
and Spring."



From george  Mon Dec  5 22:21:17 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:21:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD @ NJIT
In-Reply-To: <439501B2.9060809@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <439501B2.9060809@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>

Kevin Reiter wrote:
> http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/index.htm
> 
> It's good to see some positive stuff being taught at respected 
> institutions, but sometimes ya gotta wonder...
> 
> I'd sure like to know exactly what certification they're talking about 
> when they mention FreeBSD, though:

AFAIK, it's a university certificate. . . Heard about this a while back. 
. . Dru?

> 
> "The continued exploitations of security holes in the Microsoft Windows 
> operating systems have produced an obvious need for more secure software."
> 
> [Wasn't BSD around before Mickeysoft?]
> 
> "The Berkeley Software Distribution, developed by the Computer Science 
> Research Group at the University of California, has developed into the 
> most secure open source codebase in the world. BSD derivative operating 
> systems, including OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and Apple's Macintosh OS X, 
> are some of the most security-conscious operating systems in the world. 
> They are all based on the open-source standards produced by the original 
> BSD distributions.
> 
> In the business world, the need for competent personnel who are familiar 
> with the open source concept and availability of programs has never been 
> higher --it's rate of growth shows no sign of diminishing either now or 
> in the future
> 
> The path to success in the professional world of Information Technology 
> leads straight through the world of open source and open standards. 
> There has never been a better time to become certified in these 
> important technology areas
> 
> Complete the three stage training and receive certification in open 
> source unix operating systems. The three courses are: 1 Fundamentals of 
> Open Source Operating Systems 2.Administration I 3. Administration II 
> The courses begin via eLearning every 4 weeks, and in-class each Fall 
> and Spring."

Woah, tiger. . . This type of class and program should make us all very 
happy. . . it's clearly taught by someone who is extremely enthused 
about the BSDs.

I don't know much more about the class than what KR posted, but I think 
this type of happening is very good.  It's clearly being taken 
seriously, and it certainly increases the profile of the BSDs.

Let's not get nutty about criticizing any details.  Take it for what it 
is.  A series of classes on FreeBSD.

g



From spork  Mon Dec  5 22:32:47 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:32:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD @ NJIT
In-Reply-To: <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>
References: <439501B2.9060809@penguinnetwerx.net> <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512052231470.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, George R. wrote:

> Kevin Reiter wrote:
>> http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/index.htm
>> 
> I don't know much more about the class than what KR posted, but I think this 
> type of happening is very good.  It's clearly being taken seriously, and it 
> certainly increases the profile of the BSDs.
>
> Let's not get nutty about criticizing any details.  Take it for what it is. 
> A series of classes on FreeBSD.

Bring in the NJIT guy that started this for a meeting!
(he says with some authority he does not have)  :)

Charles

> g
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From tux  Tue Dec  6 01:31:58 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 01:31:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD @ NJIT
In-Reply-To: <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>
References: <439501B2.9060809@penguinnetwerx.net> <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <4395305E.6000002@penguinnetwerx.net>

George R. wrote:
> Kevin Reiter wrote:
> 
>> http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/index.htm
>>
>> It's good to see some positive stuff being taught at respected 
>> institutions, but sometimes ya gotta wonder...
>>
>> I'd sure like to know exactly what certification they're talking about 
>> when they mention FreeBSD, though:
> 
> 
> AFAIK, it's a university certificate. . . Heard about this a while back. 
> . . Dru?
> 
>>
>> "The continued exploitations of security holes in the Microsoft 
>> Windows operating systems have produced an obvious need for more 
>> secure software."
>>
>> [Wasn't BSD around before Mickeysoft?]
>>
>> "The Berkeley Software Distribution, developed by the Computer Science 
>> Research Group at the University of California, has developed into the 
>> most secure open source codebase in the world. BSD derivative 
>> operating systems, including OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and Apple's 
>> Macintosh OS X, are some of the most security-conscious operating 
>> systems in the world. They are all based on the open-source standards 
>> produced by the original BSD distributions.
>>
>> In the business world, the need for competent personnel who are 
>> familiar with the open source concept and availability of programs has 
>> never been higher --it's rate of growth shows no sign of diminishing 
>> either now or in the future
>>
>> The path to success in the professional world of Information 
>> Technology leads straight through the world of open source and open 
>> standards. There has never been a better time to become certified in 
>> these important technology areas
>>
>> Complete the three stage training and receive certification in open 
>> source unix operating systems. The three courses are: 1 Fundamentals 
>> of Open Source Operating Systems 2.Administration I 3. Administration 
>> II The courses begin via eLearning every 4 weeks, and in-class each 
>> Fall and Spring."
> 
> 
> Woah, tiger. . . This type of class and program should make us all very 
> happy. . . it's clearly taught by someone who is extremely enthused 
> about the BSDs.
> 
> I don't know much more about the class than what KR posted, but I think 
> this type of happening is very good.  It's clearly being taken 
> seriously, and it certainly increases the profile of the BSDs.
> 
> Let's not get nutty about criticizing any details.  Take it for what it 
> is.  A series of classes on FreeBSD.

I wasn't criticizing, ("It's good to see some positive stuff being taught at 
respected institutions...") but merely wondering out loud what kind of certs they 
were referring to.

Long day, bad mood, poor choice of words there, wot?

-- 
It said "use Linux 2.4 kernel or better" so I installed FreeBSD.  Now everything 
runs better.  Why didn't they just tell me to do that to begin with?




From dlavigne6  Tue Dec  6 10:00:59 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:00:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD @ NJIT
In-Reply-To: <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>
References: <439501B2.9060809@penguinnetwerx.net> <439503AD.9050709@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20051206095047.S540@dru.domain.org>



On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, George R. wrote:

> Kevin Reiter wrote:
>> http://cpe.njit.edu/opensourceunix/index.htm
>> 
>> It's good to see some positive stuff being taught at respected 
>> institutions, but sometimes ya gotta wonder...
>> 
>> I'd sure like to know exactly what certification they're talking about when 
>> they mention FreeBSD, though:
>
> AFAIK, it's a university certificate. . . Heard about this a while back. . . 
> Dru?


They are advertising it as a "vendor" certificate, though. (click on 
the first course) IIRC, we emailed Tim Kellers about this back in March and
never received an answer back.

Dru



From lists  Tue Dec  6 14:19:31 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:19:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Audio/video of Dec 7 meeting?
Message-ID: <cone.1133896771.491070.10406.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>

Just checked with the powers that be.. and I won't be able to escape my 12pm 
to 8pm shift to attend the meeting.

Will there be audio or video of this meeting at a later date?
This is one meeting I really wanted to attend. :-( 

And it would be my luck that the one person that could cover for me is sick 
today and likely won't be on a position to cover for me tomorrow..  



From george  Tue Dec  6 15:20:25 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:20:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Audio/video of Dec 7 meeting?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1133896771.491070.10406.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
References: <cone.1133896771.491070.10406.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
Message-ID: <4395F289.5090002@sddi.net>

Francisco Reyes wrote:
> Just checked with the powers that be.. and I won't be able to escape my 
> 12pm to 8pm shift to attend the meeting.
> 
> Will there be audio or video of this meeting at a later date?
> This is one meeting I really wanted to attend. :-(
> And it would be my luck that the one person that could cover for me is 
> sick today and likely won't be on a position to cover for me tomorrow..  

Usually that one person who is consistent is Nikolai. . . but not sure...

Nikolai?

g




From nikolai.fetissov  Tue Dec  6 15:51:13 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:51:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Audio/video of Dec 7 meeting?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1133896771.491070.10406.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
References: <cone.1133896771.491070.10406.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
Message-ID: <1392.63.66.6.134.1133902273.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>


On Tue, December 6, 2005 2:19 pm, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> Just checked with the powers that be.. and I won't be able to escape my
> 12pm
> to 8pm shift to attend the meeting.
>
> Will there be audio or video of this meeting at a later date?
> This is one meeting I really wanted to attend. :-(
>

I'll do my best not to miss this one.
Then the mp3 would be online the next morning.
--
 nick



From dlavigne6  Tue Dec  6 19:04:31 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:04:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] latest BSDCG press release
Message-ID: <20051206185810.P540@dru.domain.org>


Just a thumbs up that BSD Certification Group Inc. has announced their 
first campaign to raise the startup costs required to produce the upcoming
BSDA examination. All are encouraged to distribute the press release found 
at:

http://www.bsdcertification.org/index.php?NAV=News&Item=pr024

and to point others to the Sponsorship Fact Sheet which explains the 
startup costs:

http://www.bsdcertification.org/index.php?NAV=Donate

Any questions regarding the campaign, feel free to email me off-list.

Dru



From george  Tue Dec  6 22:08:18 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:08:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some past meeting recordings. . .
Message-ID: <43965222.5090003@sddi.net>

So everyone knows, Nikolai has recorded a good number of meetings for us.

http://www.peachisland.com/nycbug/

Hopefully he'll record tomorrow, since I've already gotten a few 
requests offline for the audio.

(no pressure nikolai ;-)

g



From lists  Wed Dec  7 16:05:29 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:05:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Audio/video of Dec 7 meeting?
References: <cone.1133896771.491070.10406.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<1392.63.66.6.134.1133902273.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1133989529.925233.27707.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>

Nikolai N. Fetissov writes:

> I'll do my best not to miss this one.

Hope you make it.

> Then the mp3 would be online the next morning.

Thanks.



From nikolai.fetissov  Wed Dec  7 22:54:38 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:54:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] December meeting audio
Message-ID: <1136.69.119.149.0.1134014078.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

Hi folks,
mp3 of Ike's presentation is at
http://www.peachisland.com/nycbug/
-- 
 nick



From george  Wed Dec  7 23:36:32 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:36:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] December meeting audio
In-Reply-To: <1136.69.119.149.0.1134014078.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <1136.69.119.149.0.1134014078.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <4397B850.5010403@sddi.net>

Nikolai N. Fetissov wrote:
> Hi folks,
> mp3 of Ike's presentation is at
> http://www.peachisland.com/nycbug/

Thanks Nikolai. . . .posted as a reply to the meeting announce on 
BSDNews.com.

g



From mspitzer  Thu Dec  8 00:13:21 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:13:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ike what size is the process id in fbsd?
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512072113g41482b18m27d39e3ca8c60fd8@mail.gmail.com>

Ike,

As asked for, what size is the process id in freebsd?

laptop% cat pid.c
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <unistd.h>

int main (char argv[][], int argc ) {
printf ("size of pid %d\n" , sizeof(pid_t));
}

laptop% ./a.out
size of pid 4
laptop%

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From ike  Thu Dec  8 08:58:57 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:58:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jailing Party
Message-ID: <1D9F4B96-DD93-4705-A386-47DF26D9E8C5@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Thanks to all who attended last night's meeting on the topic of  
Jailing, really appreciate everyone's involvement!

With that, I'm wondering when a good time for a jailing party would be?

--
What is this 'Jailing Party'?  It's a few hours of fun, spread over a  
day or two:

1) ike puts a computer online with a base FreeBSD install
2) ike gives root to Jailing Party attendees
3) attendees show up on irc.freenode.org #nycbug
4) everyone makes jails, hands on, first focused on setup/config etc...
5) those inclinded, make attempts to crack, break, or otherwise  
experiment dangerously with the jailed systems (Party is over when  
the box is either hosed, or everyone is satisfied/bored)


The last time we did this it was a lot of fun,
(Old Jailing Party Flyer is here http://diversaform.com/temp/ 
JailingParty.jpg - was a lot of fun...)

--
When do people want to do this?  (I know everyone is busy with the  
holi-daze...)

Rocket-
.ike





From nycbug  Thu Dec  8 10:55:29 2005
From: nycbug (Chris Buechler)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 10:55:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>

Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> I've got 2 brand-spankin' new RAID cards I'd like to ditch, they're 
>> not that smooth to use with FreeBSD (but reported rock-solid for 
>> OpenBSD use):
>>
>> '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
>> http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp
>
>
> Ike,
>
> Just curious what issues you have with these.  I have a 8506-4LP in a 
> 6.0 box I'm testing, and it's been stable.  Also have one in a 
> production 4.11 box and have been very happy with it.  Not a speed 
> demon though on the 6.0 box, and it's still under "giant".



I must say, I'm curious as well.  Curious if it's the same issue I've 
been seeing for about 2 years.  I've used a variety of 3Ware cards in 
FreeBSD boxes, 4.x through 6.x, and they've been solid except for one 
thing.  Enable SMP and everything goes all to hell real fast.  Ranging 
from a dual P3 500 MHz to a dual Xeon 3+ GHz, with several different 
3Ware cards, the symptoms vary from instability (kernel panics ranging 
in frequency, typically a couple times a week at least), to complete 
inability to boot, and a few things in between.  Disabling SMP in the 
kernel, or physically taking out the second proc, always has completely 
resolved the problems.  The hardware is rock solid in every case, 
without SMP on the same boxes with 3Ware cards, or with SMP and without 
the 3Ware cards, I've had 1+ year uptimes. 

haven't had time to look into it any closer than that. 

-Chris



From o_sleep  Thu Dec  8 11:26:17 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:26:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] local ports
Message-ID: <17505241-86E0-4C29-9EDF-7D6FAA4AE647@belovedarctos.com>

NYCBuggers,

I just wanted to follow up on this post.
On Fri 2005.12.02 at 17:14 -0500, Bjorn Nelson wrote:

> NYCBuggers,
>
> I just posted this to the freebsd-arch mailing list.  What is
> everyone's thought on this?
>
> "I propose a new port category called local or site.  This would not
> get updated with the cvsup, but would allow people to have a place to
> put ports that they want to keep internal to their site.  I am
> currently exporting a ports tree to a bunch of other hosts and it
> would be handy if I could just put ports for our proprietary apps in
> there and not worry about keeping a forked bsd.port.mk."

Got some good information on freebsd-ports at freebsd.org from Michael  
C. Shultz who said:

=====

I've been doing this for years and the current port mechnism seems to  
work
with it ok.  Excerpt from man portmanager(1)

      local ports, ie. ports not in the FreeBSD ports tree:

      Here is how to handle locally installed ports if you plan to  
take advan-
      tage of some of FreeBSD's port system features:

        
########################################################################
       # Makefile from /usr/ports/local/sysutils/somelocalportname/ 
Makefile
        
########################################################################
       PORTNAME=           somelocalportname
       PORTVERSION=        0.1.0
       CATEGORIES=         local/sysutils
       VALID_CATEGORIES+=  ${CATEGORIES}       # for FreeBSD to  
accept our
                                               # local category

      Simply add a "local" directory to /usr/ports and install your  
local ports
      under that directory. Where a normal FreeBSD port may be in "sysu-
      tils/{portname} the example above would reside in "local/ 
sysutils/{port-
      name}".

-Mike

====

Okan Demirmen on this (nycbug) list suggested to:
echo mystuff >> ${PORTSDIR}/.cvsignore

So I don't lose my port when I do a cvsup.  The setup is working  
great now.  Installing our clumsy proprietary apps are much easier now.

Thanks all.

-Bjorn Nelson




From spork  Fri Dec  9 00:45:48 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:45:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] misc. meeting note (ike jail)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512090043220.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>

All,

I remember there being some question (not any idea anymore how it related 
to jails) about large filesystems.  Ike answered that the support for 2TB+ 
stank.  That sounded odd to me after hearing about UFS2 supporting much 
larger filesystems...

This little article explains some of the issues:

http://www.mostlygeek.com/node/39

My favorite part is that disklabel can't deal with a partition larger than 
2TB.

This references 5.4, any changes in 6.0?

Thanks,

Charles



From jonathan  Fri Dec  9 06:00:29 2005
From: jonathan (Jonathan)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:00:29 +0300
Subject: [nycbug-talk] misc. meeting note (ike jail)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512090043220.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512090043220.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
Message-ID: <439963CD.7020002@kc8onw.net>

Charles Sprickman wrote:
> All,
> 
> I remember there being some question (not any idea anymore how it 
> related to jails) about large filesystems.  Ike answered that the 
> support for 2TB+ stank.  That sounded odd to me after hearing about UFS2 
> supporting much larger filesystems...
> 
> This little article explains some of the issues:
> 
> http://www.mostlygeek.com/node/39
> 
> My favorite part is that disklabel can't deal with a partition larger 
> than 2TB.
> 
> This references 5.4, any changes in 6.0?
> 

http://www.freebsd.org/projects/bigdisk/

Many systems don't require an MBR or GPT, and even PCs don't require it 
if booting and inter-operating with other OS's is not required. The next 
limit that comes in, though, is with the BSD disklabel. This label 
defines up to 8 partitions on a disk, MBR slice, or other storage extent 
for filesystems and swap space. Unfortunately, the on-disk format of the 
disk label again uses 32 bit quantities, so it is also limited to 2TB. 
Fixing this would require creating a new format that is incompatible 
with the old and would require an update to the FreeBSD boot loader. 
This would complicate interoperability and the upgrade path. Also, if a 
new format is going to be created, it should also address the 8 
partition limit that exists now. Given these requirements, it's tempting 
to just adopt the GPT format instead for secondary storage partitioning.

HTH,
Jonathan




From george  Fri Dec  9 11:08:10 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:08:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Security & monoculture
Message-ID: <4399ABEA.3050504@sddi.net>

The issue of diversity and monoculture has been a major security debate 
over the past several years.

Monoculture being the use of a single operating system family, 
applications and code throughout an environment, as opposed to having 
diversity.  Okay, maybe I'm oversimplifying, but that's why you should 
read the article <g>

USENIX had a great debate on this a while back at ATC, and an article in 
the current ;login: is referred to by Bruce Schneier's blog:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/monocultures_an.html

It's generally considered a Microsoft v 'the others' debate, but I think 
in some ways, this doesn't address the point of open source, standards, etc.

The problem with Microsoft's approach to security goes beyond their 
monopoly.  For instance, a 100% BSD environment is certainly different 
than a regular monoculture, not just because it is in the 'other' 
category, but because of code maturity, strong auditing, etc.

Anyway, more interested in opening the debate. . ..

g



From ike  Fri Dec  9 12:52:00 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:52:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>
Message-ID: <CEAEBE99-3372-4332-B757-29D4A61BE542@lesmuug.org>

Hey Chris, All,

On Dec 8, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Chris Buechler wrote:

> I've used a variety of 3Ware cards in FreeBSD boxes, 4.x through  
> 6.x, and they've been solid except for one thing.  Enable SMP and  
> everything goes all to hell real fast.

Anyone know who's 'in charge' of writing the driver for the 3Ware  
Escalade stuff?  I may have a card for them...

Rocket-
.ike





From nomadlogic  Fri Dec  9 13:16:32 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:16:32 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <CEAEBE99-3372-4332-B757-29D4A61BE542@lesmuug.org>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>
	<CEAEBE99-3372-4332-B757-29D4A61BE542@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <57d710000512091016q1a82e4d5j951ef746e4165447@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/9/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> Hey Chris, All,
>
> On Dec 8, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Chris Buechler wrote:
>
> > I've used a variety of 3Ware cards in FreeBSD boxes, 4.x through
> > 6.x, and they've been solid except for one thing.  Enable SMP and
> > everything goes all to hell real fast.
>
> Anyone know who's 'in charge' of writing the driver for the 3Ware
> Escalade stuff?  I may have a card for them...
>
I think 3ware themselves actually write code for the twe driver...I
belive, not %100 sure though...

-pete


> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From ike  Fri Dec  9 13:22:51 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:22:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512091016q1a82e4d5j951ef746e4165447@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>
	<CEAEBE99-3372-4332-B757-29D4A61BE542@lesmuug.org>
	<57d710000512091016q1a82e4d5j951ef746e4165447@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C074EEF2-68BA-4D20-8EF3-7A67D98626EB@lesmuug.org>

Hey Pete, All,

On Dec 9, 2005, at 1:16 PM, pete wright wrote:

>> On Dec 8, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Chris Buechler wrote:
>>
>>> I've used a variety of 3Ware cards in FreeBSD boxes, 4.x through
>>> 6.x, and they've been solid except for one thing.  Enable SMP and
>>> everything goes all to hell real fast.
>>
>> Anyone know who's 'in charge' of writing the driver for the 3Ware
>> Escalade stuff?  I may have a card for them...
>>
> I think 3ware themselves actually write code for the twe driver...I
> belive, not %100 sure though...
>
> -pete

Ha!  So if I give the card to their engineers, I get my money back  
too!  Sweet :)

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Fri Dec  9 13:31:05 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:31:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Security & monoculture
In-Reply-To: <4399ABEA.3050504@sddi.net>
References: <4399ABEA.3050504@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <EC1D31B2-B5B3-4B68-98E7-D2FB7D7E7F9D@lesmuug.org>

Hey George, All,

On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:08 AM, George R. wrote:

> The issue of diversity and monoculture has been a major security  
> debate over the past several years.
>
> Monoculture being the use of a single operating system family,  
> applications and code throughout an environment, as opposed to  
> having diversity.  Okay, maybe I'm oversimplifying, but that's why  
> you should read the article <g>
>
> USENIX had a great debate on this a while back at ATC, and an  
> article in the current ;login: is referred to by Bruce Schneier's  
> blog:
>
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/monocultures_an.html
>
> It's generally considered a Microsoft v 'the others' debate, but I  
> think in some ways, this doesn't address the point of open source,  
> standards, etc.
>
> The problem with Microsoft's approach to security goes beyond their  
> monopoly.  For instance, a 100% BSD environment is certainly  
> different than a regular monoculture, not just because it is in the  
> 'other' category, but because of code maturity, strong auditing, etc.
>
> Anyway, more interested in opening the debate. . ..
>
> g

Whaddya' mean monoculture?  There's plenty of developers from diverse  
cultural backgrounds working on OpenSSH. ;)

But seriously, I don't see any debate here, this is a pretty  
fundamental topic.  Thanks for posting the URL Gman.

Rocket-
.ike





From nycbug  Fri Dec  9 13:32:43 2005
From: nycbug (Chris Buechler)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:32:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <CEAEBE99-3372-4332-B757-29D4A61BE542@lesmuug.org>
References: <0D5986B3-D820-488A-90BE-888CC83D219E@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512041738450.5936@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>
	<CEAEBE99-3372-4332-B757-29D4A61BE542@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <4399CDCB.4030001@chrisbuechler.com>

Isaac Levy wrote:

>
> Anyone know who's 'in charge' of writing the driver for the 3Ware  
> Escalade stuff?  I may have a card for them...
>

 From the twa man page on 6.0:

     The twa driver and manpage were written by Vinod Kashyap
     <vkashyap at FreeBSD.org>.

No idea if he still works on it, or if there is a better contact. 

As Pete said, I also recall reading somewhere that 3Ware did a lot of 
the work themselves.  I haven't contacted them about the problem (yet), 
though they have been responsive to other support issues I've had in the 
past.  Looking at their website, though, they still don't offer 
downloads for anything newer than FreeBSD 4.8, which IIRC is the same as 
the last time I checked many months ago.  Yet if you try to install 3DM 
(their management tool) from ports on a 4.x box, you get:
===>  3dm-2.04.00.011,1 is not supported in versions earlier than 
5.4-RELEASE.

The more I look at it, the more confused I am. 

cheers,
-Chris



From nomadlogic  Sat Dec 10 01:12:10 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 22:12:10 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD projects
Message-ID: <57d710000512092212h41c0ba59l7ecbb4783525bbce@mail.gmail.com>

Saw this, pretty extensive list of projects needing work on the FreeBSD project:
http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/

I am pretty interested in the PXE booting extensions to the installer...

-p


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From jonathan  Sun Dec 11 09:59:07 2005
From: jonathan (Jonathan)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:59:07 +0300
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache 2 mod_auth_pam and DAV
Message-ID: <439C3EBB.5060809@kc8onw.net>

I'm trying to set up Apache 2 with mod_auth_pam and keep getting 401 
errors not matter what user and password I try.  The only entry in the 
logs is
[Sun Dec 11 09:37:04 2005] [error] [client 144.104.30.81] PAM: user 
'xxxxxxxx' - not authenticated: authentication error

My PAM.d file has (just for testing)
auth       required     /usr/lib/pam_permit.so
account    required     /usr/lib/pam_permit.so

My Apache server ID string is
Apache/2.0.55 (FreeBSD) DAV/2 PHP/5.1.1 SVN/1.3.0-rc2 mod_ssl/2.0.55 
OpenSSL/0.9.7e Server at www.kc8onw.net Port 443

uname -a
FreeBSD server.kc8onw.net 5.4-RELEASE FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE #1: Sat May  7 
22:11:02 EDT 2005 
root at server.kc8onw.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  i386

My Apache config has the following for DAV and mod_auth_pam
LoadModule auth_pam_module    libexec/apache2/mod_auth_pam.so
DavLockDB /var/run/DavLock
Alias /dav /usr/local/www/dav
<Location /dav>
   AuthPAM_Enabled on
    AuthType Basic
    AuthName "General WebDAV access"
    require group svnusers
    require user jonathan
    Dav filesystem
</Location>

Does anyone have any ideas where to look next on this?  I've been poking 
around for days trying to figure this out and Google has not been much 
help in this instance (PAM: user  - "not authenticated: authentication 
error")
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=PAM%3A+user++-+%22not+authenticated%3A+authentication+error%22&btnG=Search

Thank you,
Jonathan




From nomadlogic  Mon Dec 12 14:22:47 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:22:47 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment
Message-ID: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>

Hey All,
any links/hacks and tricks for distributing openssh key's in a large
desktop and cluster unix environment.  ideally i'd like to have key's
distributed to servers at buildtime.  catch is that most builds are
automated so being prompted for passwords during the initial setup can
not happen.  I've started kicking around using hostbased auth, but
this is less secure and does not save any work when I can just script
creating passwordless key's.  Still, the issue I forsee is having to
manually distribute the key's for the first time (having to type a
password atleast once to get a hsots public key into a servers auth.
hosts file).

what are you all doing to manage hosts in large mostly automated
environments (more than 1000 hosts)?


thx!
-pete

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From mspitzer  Mon Dec 12 16:09:58 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:09:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512121309ibdb92cap59c4679692d19796@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/12/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey All,
> any links/hacks and tricks for distributing openssh key's in a large
> desktop and cluster unix environment.  ideally i'd like to have key's
> distributed to servers at buildtime.  catch is that most builds are
> automated so being prompted for passwords during the initial setup can
> not happen.  I've started kicking around using hostbased auth, but
> this is less secure and does not save any work when I can just script
> creating passwordless key's.  Still, the issue I forsee is having to
> manually distribute the key's for the first time (having to type a
> password atleast once to get a hsots public key into a servers auth.
> hosts file).
>
> what are you all doing to manage hosts in large mostly automated
> environments (more than 1000 hosts)?

it depends how you build them.  you could do any of the following:

1: scripted cvs/http/ftp download of the needed files
2: cfengine script
3: something else mentioned on this list, I think it started with hf,
and got good reviews
4: other stuff in ports
and others, what would work for you given your existing/planed infrastructure

marc


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From nomadlogic  Mon Dec 12 16:21:02 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:21:02 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30512121309ibdb92cap59c4679692d19796@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30512121309ibdb92cap59c4679692d19796@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512121321s4cfac3d3r85a30ce21cd32e5c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/12/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/12/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey All,
> > any links/hacks and tricks for distributing openssh key's in a large
> > desktop and cluster unix environment.  ideally i'd like to have key's
> > distributed to servers at buildtime.  catch is that most builds are
> > automated so being prompted for passwords during the initial setup can
> > not happen.  I've started kicking around using hostbased auth, but
> > this is less secure and does not save any work when I can just script
> > creating passwordless key's.  Still, the issue I forsee is having to
> > manually distribute the key's for the first time (having to type a
> > password atleast once to get a hsots public key into a servers auth.
> > hosts file).
> >
> > what are you all doing to manage hosts in large mostly automated
> > environments (more than 1000 hosts)?
>
> it depends how you build them.  you could do any of the following:
>
> 1: scripted cvs/http/ftp download of the needed files
> 2: cfengine script
> 3: something else mentioned on this list, I think it started with hf,
> and got good reviews
> 4: other stuff in ports
> and others, what would work for you given your existing/planed infrastructure
>
> marc

funny you mention cfengine, as this is partly due to cfengine ;) 
trying to figure out a way to get the client ppkey's over to the
master via an install script.  hmm...i guess I can kick around the
idea of doing some sort of HTTP/perl/python thingy...


-p


>
>
> --
> "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
> form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
> we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
> can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
> inefficiency and demoralization."
> -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD
>


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From spork  Mon Dec 12 16:33:57 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:33:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512121625110.24469@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, pete wright wrote:

> Hey All,
> any links/hacks and tricks for distributing openssh key's in a large
> desktop and cluster unix environment.  ideally i'd like to have key's
> distributed to servers at buildtime.  catch is that most builds are
> automated so being prompted for passwords during the initial setup can
> not happen.

This might be too simple, but if you're only needing one initial user to 
get going, you could include a .ssh directory and the authorized_keys file 
in the dot.skel directory...

Then for the initial connect you could loop on the list of new hosts and 
use expect to reply "yes" to the key prompt.

Charles

> thx!
> -pete
>
> --
> ~~o0OO0o~~
> Pete Wright
> www.nycbug.org
> NYC's *BSD User Group
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nomadlogic  Mon Dec 12 16:41:40 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:41:40 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512121625110.24469@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512121625110.24469@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512121341u6489f0e3w3e414de67e7944d5@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/12/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, pete wright wrote:
>
> > Hey All,
> > any links/hacks and tricks for distributing openssh key's in a large
> > desktop and cluster unix environment.  ideally i'd like to have key's
> > distributed to servers at buildtime.  catch is that most builds are
> > automated so being prompted for passwords during the initial setup can
> > not happen.
>
> This might be too simple, but if you're only needing one initial user to
> get going, you could include a .ssh directory and the authorized_keys file
> in the dot.skel directory...
>
> Then for the initial connect you could loop on the list of new hosts and
> use expect to reply "yes" to the key prompt.
>


hmm...yea that's a good one.  lemme think about that...although I'll
have to do an LDAP trick but I think the logic may work here :)

-p

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From mspitzer  Mon Dec 12 16:42:04 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:42:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512121321s4cfac3d3r85a30ce21cd32e5c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30512121309ibdb92cap59c4679692d19796@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000512121321s4cfac3d3r85a30ce21cd32e5c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512121342u66bdbb72u5dd4375c4777e89c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/12/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> funny you mention cfengine, as this is partly due to cfengine ;)
> trying to figure out a way to get the client ppkey's over to the
> master via an install script.  hmm...i guess I can kick around the
> idea of doing some sort of HTTP/perl/python thingy...

see all large env build processes are custom.  What os are you running on here?

one simple way is to put a set of default keys that are only good for
contacting a special server that you download real keys from and
insert the default keys in the build server packages.  and you
consider the keys server key to be short lived, replaced every 15-30
days.  you do not even need to delete the keys as they will time out
quickly and all new servers get the current set and are immediately
getting the data they need.  You can make this as fancy as you like.

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From spork  Mon Dec 12 23:00:26 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:00:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] syslog "compression"?
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512122256110.24469@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone here has some insight on this problem I'm having... 
FreeBSD's syslog by default will "compress" (their word) repetitive 
messages, like so:

Dec 12 22:14:58 spamd2 clamd[32226]: stream: Worm.Sober.U FOUND
Dec 12 22:15:25 spamd2 last message repeated 38 times
Dec 12 22:20:35 spamd3 last message repeated 59 times

>From my reading of the manpage, I can only turn this behaviour off for all 
logfiles that syslogd handles.  Am I parsing that correctly?  In many 
cases having the compression feature on is quite helpful.  But with my 
clamd logs on this logserver, I'd like each line left as is so they can be 
counted by my stats program.

If the stock syslogd can't do this, what is a popular replacement that's 
safe to have open to a number of hosts, routers and switches on the 
network?

Thanks,

Charles



From george  Tue Dec 13 01:45:29 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 01:45:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Business Week on Java
Message-ID: <439E6E09.2020402@sddi.net>

Interesting article. . .

http://businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051213_042973.htm



From anthony.elizondo  Tue Dec 13 09:21:48 2005
From: anthony.elizondo (Anthony Elizondo)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:21:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] syslog "compression"?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512122256110.24469@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512122256110.24469@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <a49e62c80512130621k1cca48d6uc5cc45dfc2b3eeca@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/12/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
> If the stock syslogd can't do this, what is a popular replacement that's
> safe to have open to a number of hosts, routers and switches on the
> network?

syslog-ng can disable message summarization.
http://freshmeat.net/projects/syslog-ng/

> Thanks,
>
> Charles

Anthony Elizondo



From jonathan  Tue Dec 13 10:42:38 2005
From: jonathan (Jonathan)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:42:38 +0300
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache 2 mod_auth_pam and DAV
In-Reply-To: <439DE044.8090404@aros.net>
References: <439C3EBB.5060809@kc8onw.net> <439DE044.8090404@aros.net>
Message-ID: <439EEBEE.7010406@kc8onw.net>

Lonnie Olson wrote:
 > Jonathan wrote:
 >
 >> My Apache config has the following for DAV and mod_auth_pam
 >> LoadModule auth_pam_module    libexec/apache2/mod_auth_pam.so
 >> DavLockDB /var/run/DavLock
 >> Alias /dav /usr/local/www/dav
 >> <Location /dav>
 >>   AuthPAM_Enabled on
 >>    AuthType Basic
 >>    AuthName "General WebDAV access"
 >>    require group svnusers
 >>    require user jonathan
 >>    Dav filesystem
 >> </Location>
 >
 >
 > Just a guess.  You have "require group svnusers", but how is your pam
 > config supposed to read what group that user is in.  Try removing the
 > group requirement.

Just tried it with no luck, it used to work a month or two ago so I 
didn't think that was it.  It might help if mod_auth_pam had more 
logging or debug output but finding the source and getting a rough idea 
of what it does is about the limit of my C skills.

Thanks,
Jonathan







From nomadlogic  Tue Dec 13 11:09:50 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:09:50 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WM flamefest
Message-ID: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html

kinda funny, i'd love to hear what Alan Key has to say about this ;)

and here is the kicker:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00022.html

I guess this is why you don't want coders to do UI.....

-p

<note I support KDE at work, use Gnome/xfce or fvwm personally and
frankly I think KDE is the hardest WM to support...>



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From nomadlogic  Tue Dec 13 11:19:07 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:19:07 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: WM flamefest
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512130819w43dae0cdia084d5e14db316b9@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/13/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html
>
> kinda funny, i'd love to hear what Alan Key has to say about this ;)

woops...should pay attention...that's Alan Kay
http://www.smalltalk.org/alankay.html


-p

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From lists  Tue Dec 13 11:40:31 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:40:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WM flamefest
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051213114031.43270f0a@wit.genoverly.home>

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:09:50 -0800
pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:

"If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it."
-Linus Torvalds, 12 Dec 2005 

.. ever the sage.

Go BSD! Go Fluxbox!

-- 

Michael






From chsnyder  Tue Dec 13 11:49:37 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:49:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WM flamefest
In-Reply-To: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690512130849q7bf53e72qfb9101088bdcb65f@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/13/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html
>
> kinda funny, i'd love to hear what Alan Key has to say about this ;)
>
> and here is the kicker:
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00022.html
>
> I guess this is why you don't want coders to do UI.....
>
> -p
>
> <note I support KDE at work, use Gnome/xfce or fvwm personally and
> frankly I think KDE is the hardest WM to support...>


Linus is right of course... every longtime Gnome user has at least one
story of hunting around for "the option that used to be there".

I'm all for simplicity in a user interface, but elegant solutions
still allow access to the complexity underneath. Mozilla's
about:config is a brilliant example -- everything they took out of the
Preferences dialog (and oh so much more) is available for tweaking
through a expert interface.


--
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From nomadlogic  Tue Dec 13 12:01:13 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:01:13 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] WM flamefest
In-Reply-To: <b76252690512130849q7bf53e72qfb9101088bdcb65f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000512130809x7b8c1ee2lf477f42be34d15f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252690512130849q7bf53e72qfb9101088bdcb65f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512130901u69514565v922eca61c82b69a7@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/13/05, csnyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/13/05, pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html
> >
> > kinda funny, i'd love to hear what Alan Key has to say about this ;)
> >
> > and here is the kicker:
> > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00022.html
> >
> > I guess this is why you don't want coders to do UI.....
> >
> > -p
> >
> > <note I support KDE at work, use Gnome/xfce or fvwm personally and
> > frankly I think KDE is the hardest WM to support...>
>
>
> Linus is right of course... every longtime Gnome user has at least one
> story of hunting around for "the option that used to be there".

yea sure, there are ton's of things I miss...or have had to spend some
time to figure out.  Although I wouldn't go as far to say that Linus
is right.  A user interface should not get in the way of the task that
the user wan't to accomplish, and I think this is a goal that the
Gnome folks are taking to hart (atleast that was the case at the last
GUADEC conf. I was at).  IMO Linus is just flamming the GNOME folks...

>
> I'm all for simplicity in a user interface, but elegant solutions
> still allow access to the complexity underneath. Mozilla's
> about:config is a brilliant example -- everything they took out of the
> Preferences dialog (and oh so much more) is available for tweaking
> through a expert interface.
>

yea about:config is pretty fun, although registries kinda freak me
out.  I'm still trying to figure out an easy way to script mozilla
prefs (or how to migrate key profile and preferences from mozilla to
firefox/thunderbird on a large scale)


-p





--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From fungus  Mon Dec 12 15:40:36 2005
From: fungus (Lonnie Olson)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:40:36 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache 2 mod_auth_pam and DAV
In-Reply-To: <439C3EBB.5060809@kc8onw.net>
References: <439C3EBB.5060809@kc8onw.net>
Message-ID: <439DE044.8090404@aros.net>

Jonathan wrote:
> My Apache config has the following for DAV and mod_auth_pam
> LoadModule auth_pam_module    libexec/apache2/mod_auth_pam.so
> DavLockDB /var/run/DavLock
> Alias /dav /usr/local/www/dav
> <Location /dav>
>   AuthPAM_Enabled on
>    AuthType Basic
>    AuthName "General WebDAV access"
>    require group svnusers
>    require user jonathan
>    Dav filesystem
> </Location>

Just a guess.  You have "require group svnusers", but how is your pam 
config supposed to read what group that user is in.  Try removing the 
group requirement.

--lonnie





From lists  Wed Dec 14 04:19:27 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 04:19:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Machine hangs upon boot load screen
Message-ID: <cone.1134551967.238913.85724.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Have two near identical machines, with the disk drives the only difference, 
that are having different behaviours (one been the freezing).

Machine 1 freezes upon the bootup screen (the one with the menu, right 
before the kernel boots).

Machine 2 works fine.


On the trouble machine we tried disabling ACPI and AIPC and it did not help. 
Usually the freezing occurs after 2 or 3 seconds.

To make it more interesting... if we press enter right after the menu comes 
up the machine boots perfectly fine and the machine works without any 
problems.

Both machines with FreeBSD 6 Stable as of Dec 6.
We are going to try 6 Release... and failing that then we will try 5. Stable.

Any suggestions?

Will post motherboard tomorrow when I get back to the office, but it's 
interesting that we have that second machine with the same CPU/motherboard 
which works fine. 



From nomadlogic  Wed Dec 14 11:55:45 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:55:45 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Machine hangs upon boot load screen
In-Reply-To: <cone.1134551967.238913.85724.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cone.1134551967.238913.85724.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000512140855q6ee70df1g4cfc9e68bf73e571@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/14/05, Francisco Reyes <lists at stringsutils.com> wrote:
> Have two near identical machines, with the disk drives the only difference,
> that are having different behaviours (one been the freezing).
>
> Machine 1 freezes upon the bootup screen (the one with the menu, right
> before the kernel boots).
>
> Machine 2 works fine.
>
>
> On the trouble machine we tried disabling ACPI and AIPC and it did not help.
> Usually the freezing occurs after 2 or 3 seconds.
>
> To make it more interesting... if we press enter right after the menu comes
> up the machine boots perfectly fine and the machine works without any
> problems.
>
> Both machines with FreeBSD 6 Stable as of Dec 6.
> We are going to try 6 Release... and failing that then we will try 5. Stable.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Will post motherboard tomorrow when I get back to the office, but it's
> interesting that we have that second machine with the same CPU/motherboard
> which works fine.

check BIOS rev's/options, failing that have you swapped the drives
between both machines?  This should tell us if it's a possible
hardware issue or OS install issue.

-p

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From nomadlogic  Wed Dec 14 12:06:08 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:06:08 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD XFS readonly support
Message-ID: <57d710000512140906p294aa29amebd32f11316c9c61@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure how many people are following current at freebsd, but I just
noticed that XFS readonly support has been enabled.  Thought that was
pretty good development.  Has anyone on the list been following the
development of this closely?  I'm going to try to find the time to
start testing this out....

-p

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From lists  Wed Dec 14 16:05:37 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:05:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Machine hangs upon boot load screen
References: <cone.1134551967.238913.85724.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<57d710000512140855q6ee70df1g4cfc9e68bf73e571@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1134594337.675483.74588.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>

pete wright writes:

> On 12/14/05, Francisco Reyes <lists at stringsutils.com> wrote:
>> Have two near identical machines, with the disk drives the only difference,
>> that are having different behaviours (one been the freezing).
>>
>> Machine 1 freezes upon the bootup screen (the one with the menu, right
>> before the kernel boots).
.....
>> On the trouble machine we tried disabling ACPI and AIPC and it did not help.
>> Usually the freezing occurs after 2 or 3 seconds.
>>
>> To make it more interesting... if we press enter right after the menu comes
>> up the machine boots perfectly fine and the machine works without any
>> problems.

 
> check BIOS rev's/options, failing that have you swapped the drives
> between both machines?  This should tell us if it's a possible
> hardware issue or OS install issue.

We downgraded the problem machine to 6 Release and it works fine.
Given some recent upgrades in the 6 stable line related to IDE/SATA 
controller I am thinking that if I can't get 6 stable to work, may go with 5 
Stable.

In the mean time I posted on stable this problem, since we were able to 
narrow it down to FreeBSD stable sources.  



From steve.rieger  Wed Dec 14 17:13:45 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:13:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] resignation letter 
Message-ID: <3481CBE7-A51F-4FBD-901A-6E9CDF8991A5@tbwachiat.com>

hi all i know that this is way off topic, but i need the help and you  
could all use a distraction just before the hollidays.

aside from the usual one thats all over the world, i am looking for a  
hilarious resignation letter to send out, if you know of one that  
will make folks split please forward it to me or send me a link.


thanx

i know that this is stealing but tho cares.



Steve Rieger
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq light)
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} == black_hole)
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})){
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} + 1;
};





From dlavigne6  Wed Dec 14 18:43:50 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:43:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] new blogspot
Message-ID: <20051214183410.L548@dru.domain.org>


I'm excited about this one as it's a chance to get some BSD exposure in a 
large IT forum bereft of current BSD content:

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/unix/bsd/archives/006926.asp

They did take the conference URLs out of my bio (sorry guys) and the whole
system is based on asp (yuck), but they have a good linking system and an 
RSS feed. I intend to blog often on everything BSD; feel free to post 
comments.

Cheers,

Dru







From elric  Wed Dec 14 18:57:38 2005
From: elric (Roland Dowdeswell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:57:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openssh in clustered environment 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:22:47 PST."
	<57d710000512121122j4e4ee723v65a95a0319b62e21@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20051214235738.F01FB37014@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1134415367 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
pete wright wrote:
>

>what are you all doing to manage hosts in large mostly automated
>environments (more than 1000 hosts)?

Use Kerberos.  ;-)

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From nycbug  Thu Dec 15 14:44:45 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:44:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
Message-ID: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>

Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.

-Ray-

----- Forwarded message from ShmooCon <info at shmoocon.org> -----

Dear ShmooCon 2006 Attendee,

First, thanks for registering for ShmooCon 2006!  We're less than a
month away from the conference, and it's shaping up nicely.  From the
Hacker Arcade to a spectacular speaker lineup or our
soon-to-be-announced danceclub event or the newly-designed Shmooballs,
we think you're going to get a kick out of one of the East Coast's
niftiest hacker cons.  Visit http://www.shmoocon.org for regular
updates between now and conference time!

Second, the cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel
at the ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW.  Not only does reserving a
room at the conference hotel give you some convenience, but it helps
us meet our contractual obligations with the hotel, thereby ensuring
we can bring you ShmooCon NEXT year.  The Shmoo Group runs ShmooCon as
a break-even operation.  We're simply trying to bring you an
affordable conference without losing too much money.

So, TSG pleads, if you have NOT reserved a room at the conference
hotel yet, please do so.  Visit http://www.shmoocon.org/location.html
for more information on reserving a room at the Marriott Wardman Park
Hotel.

If you have ALREADY reserved a room at the conference hotel, but
obtained a CHEAPER rate, let us know, because we can still count your
reservations towards our commitment numbers.

If you have already reserved a room at the conference hotel, but
didn't know about the ShmooCon group rate, let us know, because we can
get your room rate changed to OUR rate, which saves you money, and we
can count your reservations towards our commitment numbers.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and thanks for your support
as an attendee.  And a big THANKS to everyone who has reserved a room
at the hotel!  ;)

We look forward to seeing you at ShmooCon 2006!

Cheers,

The Shmoo Group

P.S.-- You will be receiving your final registration confirmation
email, with badge pick-up mechanism, at the first of the year.=20
Remember, as a backup, you can use your PayPal receipt to get through
registration, too.

----- End forwarded message -----



From bschonhorst  Thu Dec 15 15:00:32 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:00:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
>
> -Ray-

I'm planning on it.  I could use a ride as well...if anyone has a spare seat.

-Brad


> ----- Forwarded message from ShmooCon <info at shmoocon.org> -----
>
> Dear ShmooCon 2006 Attendee,
>
> First, thanks for registering for ShmooCon 2006!  We're less than a
> month away from the conference, and it's shaping up nicely.  From the
> Hacker Arcade to a spectacular speaker lineup or our
> soon-to-be-announced danceclub event or the newly-designed Shmooballs,
> we think you're going to get a kick out of one of the East Coast's
> niftiest hacker cons.  Visit http://www.shmoocon.org for regular
> updates between now and conference time!
>
> Second, the cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel
> at the ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW.  Not only does reserving a
> room at the conference hotel give you some convenience, but it helps
> us meet our contractual obligations with the hotel, thereby ensuring
> we can bring you ShmooCon NEXT year.  The Shmoo Group runs ShmooCon as
> a break-even operation.  We're simply trying to bring you an
> affordable conference without losing too much money.
>
> So, TSG pleads, if you have NOT reserved a room at the conference
> hotel yet, please do so.  Visit http://www.shmoocon.org/location.html
> for more information on reserving a room at the Marriott Wardman Park
> Hotel.
>
> If you have ALREADY reserved a room at the conference hotel, but
> obtained a CHEAPER rate, let us know, because we can still count your
> reservations towards our commitment numbers.
>
> If you have already reserved a room at the conference hotel, but
> didn't know about the ShmooCon group rate, let us know, because we can
> get your room rate changed to OUR rate, which saves you money, and we
> can count your reservations towards our commitment numbers.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to read this, and thanks for your support
> as an attendee.  And a big THANKS to everyone who has reserved a room
> at the hotel!  ;)
>
> We look forward to seeing you at ShmooCon 2006!
>
> Cheers,
>
> The Shmoo Group
>
> P.S.-- You will be receiving your final registration confirmation
> email, with badge pick-up mechanism, at the first of the year.=20
> Remember, as a backup, you can use your PayPal receipt to get through
> registration, too.
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nycbug  Thu Dec 15 15:03:11 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:03:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051215200311.GC22131@syntax.cyth.net>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:00:32PM -0500, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> > Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
> 
> I'm planning on it.  I could use a ride as well...if anyone has a spare seat.

I plan on taking a Chinatown bus, although I don't know where to
take them.  George R.?  Ike?  =)

-Ray-



From george  Thu Dec 15 15:05:44 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:05:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon
	2006	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43A1CC98.3000508@sddi.net>

Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> 
>>Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
>>
>>-Ray-
> 
> 
> I'm planning on it.  I could use a ride as well...if anyone has a spare seat.
> 
> -Brad

I'm going, like last year.  Highly recommended conference.

I will probably just take the canal street bus. . . but we should work 
out a suite at the hotel offline.

Not enough security conferences are serious, non-script kiddie, 
non-LSD-filled, yet not also full of bafoons in suits who don't know 
what a ping is.

Shmoocon is serious, yet technical and full of very cool people.

The organizers are also all BSD-heavy on things . . . Bruce Potter's 
intro rant last year was at least 35% BSD-focused.

And this year, I'm sure you noticed this. ..
"FreeBSD jail(8), A Secure Virtual Machine" (Build It!)
Ike

Early unix mainframe computing brought elegant process and resource 
sharing systems which helped get more application use out of expensive 
hardware. These concerns have been largely been pushed aside in 
computing with the rise of desktop PCs, and large farms of 
ever-shrinking pizza boxes in the data center. Today, as more punch gets 
packed into 1u than ever, server resources can be further consolidated 
and abstracted to securely separate complex and sophisticated services 
in the same hardware server, by running secure virtual UNIX machines. 
FreeBSD Jails are a time-tested, secure, reliable UNIX virtual machine 
with endless uses.

g



From okan  Thu Dec 15 15:10:04 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:10:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215200311.GC22131@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051215200311.GC22131@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20051215201004.GA55742@yinaska.pair.com>

On Thu 2005.12.15 at 15:03 -0500, Ray Lai wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 03:00:32PM -0500, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> > On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> > > Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
> > 
> > I'm planning on it.  I could use a ride as well...if anyone has a spare seat.
> 
> I plan on taking a Chinatown bus, although I don't know where to
> take them.  George R.?  Ike?  =)

chinatown to chinatown ;) when in chinatown, dc, take the redline
towards "shady grove" and get off at the "woodley park-zoo/adams morgan"
stop, the marriott is right there.

cheers,
okan



From dlavigne6  Thu Dec 15 15:19:59 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:19:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

> On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
>> Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.


I am and can't wait :-)

Assuming Amtrak cooperates, we should hit D.C. late Thursday night.

We booked a room here:

http://travelbook.com/hotelinfo.php?get_rooms=true&hotelId=122013&hotname=Quality%20Inn%20Silver%20Spring&currencyCode=&locale=&propertyType=A&hrnQuoteKey=158A18141400496314&city=Washington&stateProvince=DC&country=US&hotaddress=7411%20New%20Hampshire%20Ave&arrivalDate=1/12/2006&departureDate=1/16/2006&arrivalMonth=1&arrivalDay=12&arrivalYear=2006&departureMonth=1&departureDay=16&departureYear=2006&numberOfRooms=1&room-0-adult-total=2&room-0-child-total=0&room-1-adult-total=&room-1-child-total=&room-2-adult-total=&room-2-child-total=&room-3-adult-total=&room-3-child-total=&hasmap=true

as it was cheap and close to the Metro. Less than 8 miles from the conference
IIRC.

Dru



From george  Thu Dec 15 15:20:51 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:20:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon
	2006	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>

Dru wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> 
>> On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
> 
> 
> 
> I am and can't wait :-)
> 
> Assuming Amtrak cooperates, we should hit D.C. late Thursday night.
> 
> We booked a room here:
> 
> http://travelbook.com/hotelinfo.php?get_rooms=true&hotelId=122013&hotname=Quality%20Inn%20Silver%20Spring&currencyCode=&locale=&propertyType=A&hrnQuoteKey=158A18141400496314&city=Washington&stateProvince=DC&country=US&hotaddress=7411%20New%20Hampshire%20Ave&arrivalDate=1/12/2006&departureDate=1/16/2006&arrivalMonth=1&arrivalDay=12&arrivalYear=2006&departureMonth=1&departureDay=16&departureYear=2006&numberOfRooms=1&room-0-adult-total=2&room-0-child-total=0&room-1-adult-total=&room-1-child-total=&room-2-adult-total=&room-2-child-total=&room-3-adult-total=&room-3-child-total=&hasmap=true 
> 
> 
> as it was cheap and close to the Metro. Less than 8 miles from the 
> conference
> IIRC.

????

Falling into and out of bed while staying at the marriot is highly 
recommended.

g



From okan  Thu Dec 15 15:29:29 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:29:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20051215202929.GB57221@yinaska.pair.com>

On Thu 2005.12.15 at 15:19 -0500, Dru wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> 
> >On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> >>Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
> 
> 
> I am and can't wait :-)
> 
> Assuming Amtrak cooperates, we should hit D.C. late Thursday night.
>
>
> We booked a room here:
> 
> http://travelbook.com/hotelinfo.php?get_rooms=true&hotelId=122013&hotname=Quality%20Inn%20Silver%20Spring&currencyCode=&locale=&propertyType=A&hrnQuoteKey=158A18141400496314&city=Washington&stateProvince=DC&country=US&hotaddress=7411%20New%20Hampshire%20Ave&arrivalDate=1/12/2006&departureDate=1/16/2006&arrivalMonth=1&arrivalDay=12&arrivalYear=2006&departureMonth=1&departureDay=16&departureYear=2006&numberOfRooms=1&room-0-adult-total=2&room-0-child-total=0&room-1-adult-total=&room-1-child-total=&room-2-adult-total=&room-2-child-total=&room-3-adult-total=&room-3-child-total=&hasmap=true
> 
> as it was cheap and close to the Metro. Less than 8 miles from the 
> conference
> IIRC.

silver spring. ok, i'm not sure which metro this is near up there, but
from the silver spring metro to woodly park (the redline) will take
about 30-45 min. if it's another metro line or stop, i'm not sure.

fyi, union station is on the redline, so that's nice if the quality inn
is near a redline stop. (as is the marriott/shmoocon - woodly park)

but for those looking for dc metro help, http://www.wmata.com/ has a
little "trip planner", the usual stuff.

cheers,
okan



From dlavigne6  Thu Dec 15 15:35:10 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:35:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org> <43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20051215153431.E553@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, George R. wrote:

> Falling into and out of bed while staying at the marriot is highly 
> recommended.


That's fine for ya rich folks, us Canucks have to count our pennies ;-)

Besides, get to play tourist.

Dru



From george  Thu Dec 15 15:33:19 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:33:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215153431.E553@dru.domain.org>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org> <43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>
	<20051215153431.E553@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <43A1D30F.9030309@sddi.net>

Dru wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, George R. wrote:
> 
>> Falling into and out of bed while staying at the marriot is highly 
>> recommended.
> 
> 
> 
> That's fine for ya rich folks, us Canucks have to count our pennies ;-)

we had like six people in a suite . . . it was cheaper than the ymca.

> 
> Besides, get to play tourist.

yuch. . .

g



From mspitzer  Thu Dec 15 16:17:28 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:17:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <43A1D30F.9030309@sddi.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org> <43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>
	<20051215153431.E553@dru.domain.org> <43A1D30F.9030309@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512151317h5822089ex8bdb74a1ca43b34e@mail.gmail.com>

I think I am just gona get a room and amtrack tickets, I truely hate bus rides.

marc

--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From tux  Thu Dec 15 22:53:55 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:53:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick
	ShmooCon	2006	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>	<7708fd680512151200s30483075p621241326ba15797@mail.gmail.com>	<20051215151219.V553@dru.domain.org>
	<43A1D023.2070501@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <43A23A53.7070308@penguinnetwerx.net>

George R. wrote:
> Dru wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/15/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am and can't wait :-)
>>
>> Assuming Amtrak cooperates, we should hit D.C. late Thursday night.
>>
>> We booked a room here:
>>
>> http://travelbook.com/hotelinfo.php?get_rooms=true&hotelId=122013&hotname=Quality%20Inn%20Silver%20Spring&currencyCode=&locale=&propertyType=A&hrnQuoteKey=158A18141400496314&city=Washington&stateProvince=DC&country=US&hotaddress=7411%20New%20Hampshire%20Ave&arrivalDate=1/12/2006&departureDate=1/16/2006&arrivalMonth=1&arrivalDay=12&arrivalYear=2006&departureMonth=1&departureDay=16&departureYear=2006&numberOfRooms=1&room-0-adult-total=2&room-0-child-total=0&room-1-adult-total=&room-1-child-total=&room-2-adult-total=&room-2-child-total=&room-3-adult-total=&room-3-child-total=&hasmap=true 
>>
>>
>> as it was cheap and close to the Metro. Less than 8 miles from the 
>> conference
>> IIRC.
> 
> 
> ????
> 
> Falling into and out of bed while staying at the marriot is highly 
> recommended.

I'll second that, unless you're talking about Ike, who slept in the bar chairs 
more than the room, methinks ;)

-- 
It said "use Linux 2.4 kernel or better" so I installed FreeBSD.  Now everything 
runs better.  Why didn't they just tell me to do that to begin with?




From tux  Thu Dec 15 22:57:00 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:57:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD vs Linux
Message-ID: <43A23B0C.4050308@penguinnetwerx.net>

Calm down, I'm not starting a flame war :)

Just saw this link from ITToolbox.com [1] and figured I'd pass it on.  It deals 
mainly with Linux vs NetBSD in embedded applications, the difference between the 
GPL and the BSD license, and ..  well, read it and find out..




[1] http://www.wasabisystems.com/pdfs/Linux_or_BSD.pdf
-- 
It said "use Linux 2.4 kernel or better" so I installed FreeBSD.  Now everything 
runs better.  Why didn't they just tell me to do that to begin with?




From dan  Fri Dec 16 06:55:03 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:55:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon
	2006	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <43A264C7.15361.178E6F04@localhost>

On 15 Dec 2005 at 14:44, Ray Lai wrote:

> Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.

I'm going.  My room is already booked and full.  I'm arriving 
Wednesday night, working from our office in DC on Thursday and 
Friday, then leaving for home on Sunday.

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From dlavigne6  Fri Dec 16 09:15:27 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:15:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD vs Linux
In-Reply-To: <43A23B0C.4050308@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <43A23B0C.4050308@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <20051216090513.H544@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> [1] http://www.wasabisystems.com/pdfs/Linux_or_BSD.pdf


Yes, this is in a similar vein to the Bruce Montague one on the FreeBSD 
website:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/index.html

It is always interesting when I discuss Open Source licenses in class. The 
audience is typically sysadmins working in the field for at least a few 
years, many with self-taught Linux skills. They are always surprised to 
learn:

1. that there are over 50 different licenses defined at opensource.org
2. about the differences in legal complexity between the GPL and BSD licenses
3. that there are restrictions on GPL'd code that could possibly come back
    to haunt you

Without fail, at least one person in every class will comment "why doesn't 
everyone just use a BSD license?" Indeed :-)

Which reminds me that I never did get back to the NYI guy I met at NYCBSDCon
about Bruce's book. If you're on this list, send me a reminder email.

Dru



From nycbug  Fri Dec 16 09:50:29 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:50:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20051216145029.GA4700@syntax.cyth.net>

Actually the point of the previous e-mail was more to find out who
I could share a room with.  As the forwarded message says, "the
cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel at the
ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW."  So, who can I bunk with?  (Of
course, the cost is split.)  If we haven't gotten a room yet we've
got to get one really soon.

-Ray-

On Thu, Dec 15, 2005 at 02:44:45PM -0500, Ray Lai wrote:
> Who's going to ShmooCon?  Let's share rooms.
> 
> -Ray-
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from ShmooCon <info at shmoocon.org> -----
> 
> Dear ShmooCon 2006 Attendee,
> 
> First, thanks for registering for ShmooCon 2006!  We're less than a
> month away from the conference, and it's shaping up nicely.  From the
> Hacker Arcade to a spectacular speaker lineup or our
> soon-to-be-announced danceclub event or the newly-designed Shmooballs,
> we think you're going to get a kick out of one of the East Coast's
> niftiest hacker cons.  Visit http://www.shmoocon.org for regular
> updates between now and conference time!
> 
> Second, the cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel
> at the ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW.  Not only does reserving a
> room at the conference hotel give you some convenience, but it helps
> us meet our contractual obligations with the hotel, thereby ensuring
> we can bring you ShmooCon NEXT year.  The Shmoo Group runs ShmooCon as
> a break-even operation.  We're simply trying to bring you an
> affordable conference without losing too much money.
> 
> So, TSG pleads, if you have NOT reserved a room at the conference
> hotel yet, please do so.  Visit http://www.shmoocon.org/location.html
> for more information on reserving a room at the Marriott Wardman Park
> Hotel.
> 
> If you have ALREADY reserved a room at the conference hotel, but
> obtained a CHEAPER rate, let us know, because we can still count your
> reservations towards our commitment numbers.
> 
> If you have already reserved a room at the conference hotel, but
> didn't know about the ShmooCon group rate, let us know, because we can
> get your room rate changed to OUR rate, which saves you money, and we
> can count your reservations towards our commitment numbers.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read this, and thanks for your support
> as an attendee.  And a big THANKS to everyone who has reserved a room
> at the hotel!  ;)
> 
> We look forward to seeing you at ShmooCon 2006!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> The Shmoo Group
> 
> P.S.-- You will be receiving your final registration confirmation
> email, with badge pick-up mechanism, at the first of the year.=20
> Remember, as a backup, you can use your PayPal receipt to get through
> registration, too.
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month



From dan  Fri Dec 16 09:53:03 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:53:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [info@shmoocon.org: A quick ShmooCon
	2006	administrative note]
In-Reply-To: <20051216145029.GA4700@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <43A28E7F.13998.1C7FB7@localhost>

On 16 Dec 2005 at 9:50, Ray Lai wrote:

> Actually the point of the previous e-mail was more to find out who
> I could share a room with.  As the forwarded message says, "the
> cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel at the
> ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW."  So, who can I bunk with?  (Of
> course, the cost is split.)  If we haven't gotten a room yet we've
> got to get one really soon.

Us, being a social lot, answered your [only] question.  ;) Who's 
going.

You might be better served by starting a new thread, with the subject 
"Sharing rooms at ShmooCon"
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From nycbug  Fri Dec 16 11:09:36 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:09:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Sharing rooms at ShmooCon (Was: A quick ShmooCon 2006
	administrative note)
In-Reply-To: <43A28E7F.13998.1C7FB7@localhost>
References: <20051215194445.GB22131@syntax.cyth.net>
	<43A28E7F.13998.1C7FB7@localhost>
Message-ID: <20051216160936.GB4700@syntax.cyth.net>

On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 09:53:03AM -0500, Dan Langille wrote:
> On 16 Dec 2005 at 9:50, Ray Lai wrote:
> > Actually the point of the previous e-mail was more to find out who
> > I could share a room with.  As the forwarded message says, "the
> > cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel at the
> > ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW."  So, who can I bunk with?  (Of
> > course, the cost is split.)  If we haven't gotten a room yet we've
> > got to get one really soon.
> 
> Us, being a social lot, answered your [only] question.  ;) Who's 
> going.
> 
> You might be better served by starting a new thread, with the subject 
> "Sharing rooms at ShmooCon"

So, who can I bunk with? =)

-Ray-



From dan  Fri Dec 16 11:20:28 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:20:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How to start a new thread
Message-ID: <43A2A2FC.6150.6C8A7F@localhost>

On 16 Dec 2005 at 11:09, Ray Lai wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 09:53:03AM -0500, Dan Langille wrote:
> > On 16 Dec 2005 at 9:50, Ray Lai wrote:
> > > Actually the point of the previous e-mail was more to find out who
> > > I could share a room with.  As the forwarded message says, "the
> > > cut-off date for reserving a room at the conference hotel at the
> > > ShmooCon group rate is TOMORROW."  So, who can I bunk with?  (Of
> > > course, the cost is split.)  If we haven't gotten a room yet we've
> > > got to get one really soon.
> > 
> > Us, being a social lot, answered your [only] question.  ;) Who's 
> > going.
> > 
> > You might be better served by starting a new thread, with the subject 
> > "Sharing rooms at ShmooCon"
> 
> So, who can I bunk with? =)

Please do not take this the wrong way.  What I'm about to explain is 
a minor point about threads and how best to make them work for you.  
I'm cc'ing the list because you're sure to not be the only one that 
doesn't know how this works

Close!  But you replied to my message. Which does not start a new 
thread.

See here:  http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-
December/thread.html where you'll see that your message is still part 
of the original thread.

What you need to do is start a brand new email.   Don't reply.

Granted, some email clients, mine included, allow you to remove the 
headers that make the new email part of an existing thread.    If you 
check the above URL, you'll see that it's a new thread.  I hit reply 
to your email, but used the special features to remove the In-reply-
to: and References: headers.

cheers
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From mikel.king  Fri Dec 16 11:32:34 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:32:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How to start a new thread
In-Reply-To: <43A2A2FC.6150.6C8A7F@localhost>
References: <43A2A2FC.6150.6C8A7F@localhost>
Message-ID: <7BDF3481-7917-4AC6-85FF-181746659ABF@ocsny.com>

>
{SNIP}

> Please do not take this the wrong way.  What I'm about to explain is
> a minor point about threads and how best to make them work for you.
> I'm cc'ing the list because you're sure to not be the only one that
> doesn't know how this works
>
> Close!  But you replied to my message. Which does not start a new
> thread.
>
> See here:  http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-
> December/thread.html where you'll see that your message is still part
> of the original thread.
>
> What you need to do is start a brand new email.   Don't reply.
>
> Granted, some email clients, mine included, allow you to remove the
> headers that make the new email part of an existing thread.    If you
> check the above URL, you'll see that it's a new thread.  I hit reply
> to your email, but used the special features to remove the In-reply-
> to: and References: headers.
>
> cheers
> --  
> Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/

Dan,

	Maybe it's cause you're speaking Canadian, and they can't understand  
you?

	Sorry bud I couldn't resist.



Cheers,
Mikel King
CIO, Director of Network Operations
Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
Tech Alliance, INC
39 West Fourteenth Street
Second Floor
New York, NY 10011
http://www.ocsny.com
http://www.techally.com
t: 212.727.2100x132
+------------------------------------------+
How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use
each other, but optimists help each other.
Collaboration feeds your spirit, while
competition only stokes your ego. You'll
find the best way to get along.
+------------------------------------------+







From scottro  Fri Dec 16 11:37:29 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:37:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How to start a new thread
In-Reply-To: <43A2A2FC.6150.6C8A7F@localhost>
References: <43A2A2FC.6150.6C8A7F@localhost>
Message-ID: <20051216163729.GA14474@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Dec 16, 2005 at 11:20:28AM -0500, Dan Langille wrote:
> 
> Please do not take this the wrong way.  What I'm about to explain is 
> a minor point about threads and how best to make them work for you.  
> I'm cc'ing the list because you're sure to not be the only one that 
> doesn't know how this works
> 
> Close!  But you replied to my message. Which does not start a new 
> thread.
> 
> See here:  http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-
> December/thread.html where you'll see that your message is still part 
> of the original thread.


Quick note---many people make this error until it's pointed out
to them--hopefully, as nicely as Dan did.

For newcomers, there's an example (with screenshots no less) at

http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/linfaq.html#netiquette 

It's a somewhat poorly maintained faq I made for several newcomer type
Linux lists.


- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Buffy: I'm sorry, it's just been a really weird day. 
Xander: Yeah, Buffy died and everything. 
Willow: Wow, harsh. 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD)

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From dan  Fri Dec 16 11:57:28 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:57:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Talking to Americans
Message-ID: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>

I didn't start this....!  ;)

On 16 Dec 2005 at 11:32, Mikel King wrote:

> >
> {SNIP}
> 
> > Please do not take this the wrong way.  What I'm about to explain is
> > a minor point about threads and how best to make them work for you.
> > I'm cc'ing the list because you're sure to not be the only one that
> > doesn't know how this works
> >
> > Close!  But you replied to my message. Which does not start a new
> > thread.
> >
> > See here:  http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-
> > December/thread.html where you'll see that your message is still part
> > of the original thread.
> >
> > What you need to do is start a brand new email.   Don't reply.
> >
> > Granted, some email clients, mine included, allow you to remove the
> > headers that make the new email part of an existing thread.    If you
> > check the above URL, you'll see that it's a new thread.  I hit reply
> > to your email, but used the special features to remove the In-reply-
> > to: and References: headers.
> >
> > cheers
> > --  
> > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> > BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
> 
> Dan,
> 
> 	Maybe it's cause you're speaking Canadian, and they can't understand  
> you?
> 
> 	Sorry bud I couldn't resist.

I try really hard to lower the comprehension level required when 
speaking to Americans, but it's just so time consuming.  ;)

You should listen to Rick Mercer, Talking To Americans: 
http://home.comcast.net/~wwwstephen/americans/

I don't know if non-Canadians will find that funny.  It requires 
knowledge of Canada.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From bschonhorst  Fri Dec 16 12:06:33 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:06:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Talking to Americans
In-Reply-To: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>
References: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>
Message-ID: <7708fd680512160906i5f97b8b8i7e9ba6327d6c29ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/16/05, Dan Langille <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> I didn't start this....!  ;)
>
> On 16 Dec 2005 at 11:32, Mikel King wrote:
>
> > >
> > {SNIP}
> >
> > > Please do not take this the wrong way.  What I'm about to explain is
> > > a minor point about threads and how best to make them work for you.
> > > I'm cc'ing the list because you're sure to not be the only one that
> > > doesn't know how this works
> > >
> > > Close!  But you replied to my message. Which does not start a new
> > > thread.
> > >
> > > See here:  http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-
> > > December/thread.html where you'll see that your message is still part
> > > of the original thread.
> > >
> > > What you need to do is start a brand new email.   Don't reply.
> > >
> > > Granted, some email clients, mine included, allow you to remove the
> > > headers that make the new email part of an existing thread.    If you
> > > check the above URL, you'll see that it's a new thread.  I hit reply
> > > to your email, but used the special features to remove the In-reply-
> > > to: and References: headers.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > --
> > > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> > > BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> >       Maybe it's cause you're speaking Canadian, and they can't understand
> > you?
> >
> >       Sorry bud I couldn't resist.
>
> I try really hard to lower the comprehension level required when
> speaking to Americans, but it's just so time consuming.  ;)
>
> You should listen to Rick Mercer, Talking To Americans:
> http://home.comcast.net/~wwwstephen/americans/
>
> I don't know if non-Canadians will find that funny.  It requires
> knowledge of Canada.


It would be helpful if you could limit the length of the words you
choose to use.  Any word with more than five letters is going to be
pushing it. That's why we like all those acronyms, you know, like USA.

-Brad



From mikel.king  Fri Dec 16 12:13:59 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:13:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Talking to Americans
In-Reply-To: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>
References: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>
Message-ID: <905992CF-6E48-4ED8-9E9E-A6CA85EDC17F@ocsny.com>


On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:57 AM, Dan Langille wrote:
{SNIP}
>>
>> Dan,
>>
>> 	Maybe it's cause you're speaking Canadian, and they can't understand
>> you?
>>
>> 	Sorry bud I couldn't resist.
>
> I try really hard to lower the comprehension level required when
> speaking to Americans, but it's just so time consuming.  ;)
>
> You should listen to Rick Mercer, Talking To Americans:
> http://home.comcast.net/~wwwstephen/americans/
>

What's really funny about all this is technically Canadians are  
Americans too (but then so are Brazilians). So in a way they are just  
slagging off on themselves as well. It's just that some of our more  
stupid politicians here in the US have latched on to a term that  
unfairly does not belong to us. This term supposedly first coined by  
Ben Franklin, the man who wanted the turkey to be the national bird,  
also the innovator of daylight savings.

Anyway that's probably enough said about this silliness.

> I don't know if non-Canadians will find that funny.  It requires
> knowledge of Canada.
> -- 
> Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
>




From lists  Fri Dec 16 12:39:00 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:39:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall User Group Program
Message-ID: <20051216123900.6fc409d0@wit.genoverly.home>



Begin forwarded message:

YEAR-END USER GROUP APPRECIATION 40% DISCOUNT COUPON INFO: 

Visit: 
www.awprofessional.com, 
www.prenhallprofessional.com,  or
www.ibmpressbooks.com

Select the book(s) of your choice and enter coupon code:
"USERGROUP"  ((it is CASE-sensitive!!)) 
at Checkout Step #3 (Payment Method) --  OFFER EXPIRES 1/10/2006


-- 

Michael


-------------- next part --------------
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From nomadlogic  Fri Dec 16 12:47:33 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:47:33 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Talking to Americans
In-Reply-To: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>
References: <43A2ABA8.11589.8E68F8@localhost>
Message-ID: <57d710000512160947q17375f52r3f71f5a385191b53@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/16/05, Dan Langille <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> I didn't start this....!  ;)
>
> On 16 Dec 2005 at 11:32, Mikel King wrote:
>
> > >
> > {SNIP}
> >
> > > Please do not take this the wrong way.  What I'm about to explain is
> > > a minor point about threads and how best to make them work for you.
> > > I'm cc'ing the list because you're sure to not be the only one that
> > > doesn't know how this works
> > >
> > > Close!  But you replied to my message. Which does not start a new
> > > thread.
> > >
> > > See here:  http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-
> > > December/thread.html where you'll see that your message is still part
> > > of the original thread.
> > >
> > > What you need to do is start a brand new email.   Don't reply.
> > >
> > > Granted, some email clients, mine included, allow you to remove the
> > > headers that make the new email part of an existing thread.    If you
> > > check the above URL, you'll see that it's a new thread.  I hit reply
> > > to your email, but used the special features to remove the In-reply-
> > > to: and References: headers.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > > --
> > > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> > > BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> >       Maybe it's cause you're speaking Canadian, and they can't understand
> > you?
> >
> >       Sorry bud I couldn't resist.
>
> I try really hard to lower the comprehension level required when
> speaking to Americans, but it's just so time consuming.  ;)
>
> You should listen to Rick Mercer, Talking To Americans:
> http://home.comcast.net/~wwwstephen/americans/


hey thanks dan, that's a great link
/me fowards it to his canadian gf....

-p


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From lists  Fri Dec 16 15:12:16 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <20051216151216.49bea635@wit.genoverly.home>

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:46:20 -0800
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, December 16

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
December 16, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------
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-ASP.NET 2.0 Cookbook, Second Edition
-How to Cheat at Designing Security for a W2K3 Server Network
-XSLT Cookbook, Second Edition
-Zero Configuration Networking: The Definitive Guide
-Adobe Creative Suite 2 Workflow
-Insider Threat: Protecting the Enterprise from Sabotage, Spying, 
 and Theft
-Windows Server 2003 Security Cookbook
-C in a Nutshell
-SQL Cookbook
-InDesign Production Cookbook
-Run Your Own Web Server Using Linux & Apache
-Linux Server Hacks, Volume Two
-OS X for Hackers at Heart
-Running LInux, 5 Ed.
-Sarbanes-Oxley IT Compliance Using COBIT and Open Source Tools
-Securing IM and P2P Applications for the Enterprise
-VoIp Hacks
-VB Express 2005: Now Playing
-Running Mac OS X Tiger
-Dreamweaver 8: The Missing Manual
-PCs: The Missing Manual
-Virtualization with VMware ESX Server
-Podcasting Pocket Guide
-Phishing Exposed
-Digital Video Production Cookbook
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Peter Krogh ("The DAM Book") Presents iView MediaPro Workshop,
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-Peter Krogh ("The DAM Book") offers DAM for Working Photographers 
 Workshop, Kensington, MD--January 3
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-Tom Limoncelli ("Time Management for System Administrators") at
 BBLISA, Boston, MA--January??22
-Derrick Story ("Digital Photography Pocket Guide, 3rd Ed," 
 iPhoto 5:The Missing Manual) at NCMUG, Rohnert Park, CA--February??21
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
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-New 40% discount for ETel--Early Registration Pricing Ends January 9
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Reader Created Tagged Bibliography for "Ambient Findability"
-eBay Developer Challenge 2006
-Attention Span
-Time Management on Google Video
-User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning 
 Lab Courses--Ends December 31
-Through Project Looking Glass with Hideya Kawahara
-Managing TV with XMLTV 
-MacVoices #515: Home Networking with Scott Lowe
-Managing MySQL on Mac OS X 
-What Is Virtualization?
-Identifying Essential Windows Services: Part 2 
-Work Around Word XP's AutoCorrect Change
-Turn a Client Site into Saleable Software
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-You Have to Try This on Google
-Hibernate Class Generation Using hbm2java
-Lightweight O/R Mapping 
-Five Fun Ways to Play with Audio Hijack Pro
-Introduction to the Variations Color Correction Tool in Photoshop
-Meet Your Fellow Makers
-MAKE Flickr
-Give the Gift of MAKE Magazine--Special Offer for UG Members

================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
<http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html>

Don't forget, you can receive 30% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, 
Paraglyph, PC Publishing, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, or Syngress
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----------------------------------------------------------------
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<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/hfhtmlcss/chapter/index.html>


***Skype Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101899
If you've heard about Skype--and who hasn't with all the recent media
attention devoted to Internet phone service--chances are you've been
mighty tempted to try it out. "Skype Hacks" tells you what all the Skype
hype is about, explains the basics, and shows you more than 100 clever
tips and tricks for tweaking and tuning Skype so you too can enjoy free
phone calls and services.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/skypehks/>

Sample Hacks such as "Make Calls from Your Web Browser," can be 
found online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/skypehks/chapter/index.html>


***PHP Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101392
This valuable guide offers both practical and fun PHP programming
techniques. Learn to develop more robust PHP applications by improving
your database design, automating application testing, and employing
design patterns in your PHP scripts and classes. Image and application
hacks explain how to create custom MP3 broadcasts, integrate with
iTunes, and generate PDFs. Designed for all PHP programmers, from
newcomers to experts.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phphks/>

Sample Hacks such as "Read RSS Feeds on Your PSP," can be
found online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phphks/chapter/index.html>


***ASP.NET 2.0 Cookbook, Second Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100647
Completely revised for ASP.NET 2.0, this new edition of the best-selling
"ASP.NET Cookbook" has everything you need to go from beginning to
advanced Windows-based web site development using Microsoft's popular
Visual Studio 2005 and ASP.NET 2.0 developer tools. Written for the
impatient professional, "ASP.NET 2.0 Cookbook" contains more than 125
recipes for solving common and not-so-common problems you are likely to
encounter when building ASP.NET-based web applications. As with the
first edition, every solution is coded in both C# and Visual Basic 2005.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/aspnetckbk2/>


***How to Cheat at Designing Security for a W2K3 Server Network
Publisher:??Syngress
ISBN: 1597492434
When looking at an organization's security needs, you should begin with
any existing security policies or procedures that the organization might
already have in place. Examining existing security policies extends to
technical measures like analyzing security requirements for different
types of data, since some kinds of data might be subject to specific
security or retention policies, and some data is simply more
mission-critical or sensitive than others. As a network administrator,
you will need to balance the human and the technical in order to create
the best security design for your organization.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1597492434/index.html>


***XSLT Cookbook, Second Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009747
"XSLT Cookbook, 2nd Ed." is a collection of detailed code recipes that
breaks down everyday XSLT problems into manageable chunks. Learn how to
transform XML documents into PDF files, SVG files, HTML documents, etc.
Other topics include numerical transformation, XPath, date/time
conversion, string manipulation, testing and debugging, and complex
sorting and linking. Updated to cover XSLT 2.0.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/xsltckbk2/>

Chapter 9, "Querying XML," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/xsltckbk2/chapter/index.html>


***Zero Configuration Networking: The Definitive Guide
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101007
Offering a unique insider's perspective, "Zero Configuration Networking:
The Definitive Guide" takes the mystery out of networking electronic
devices, so you can enjoy maximum efficiency at work or home. Covers all
networking activities, including the sharing of files, music and photos,
and even Instant Messaging. It's the ultimate authority for developers
on any platform.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bonjour/>

Chapter 7, "Using the C APIs," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bonjour/chapter/index.html>


***Adobe Creative Suite 2 Workflow
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596102364
"Adobe Creative Suite 2 Workflow" can help you quickly learn how to take
advantage of all that CS2 has to offer. By following its concise
explanations and step-by-step exercises, you'll soon learn core skills
and techniques that will enable you to create an integrated workflow
that will not only save you lots of time, but will also give you more
flexibility to move between applications to make necessary tweaks, try
out new ideas, and create portable files for review.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/adobecs2work/>

Chapter 1, "Bridge and Version Cue: The Hub for Creative Suite 2," is
available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/adobecs2work/chapter/index.html>


***Insider Threat: Protecting the Enterprise from Sabotage, Spying, 
 and Theft
Publisher:??Syngress
ISBN: 1597490482
As network defense perimeters get stronger and stronger,IT, security,
law enforcement, and intelligence professionals are realizing that the
greatest threats to their networks are increasingly coming from within
their own organizations. These insiders, comprised of current and former
employees or contractors, can use their inside knowledge of a target
network to carry out acts of sabotage, espionage, and theft of data.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1597490482/index.html>


***Windows Server 2003 Security Cookbook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007531
This handy problem-solver teaches you how to perform important security
tasks in the Windows Server 2003 OS using very specific recipes. Each
recipe features a brief description of the problem, a step-by-step
solution, and then a discussion of the technology at work. Also features
a detailed explanation of Microsoft's scripting support.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/windowsssckbk/>


***C in a Nutshell
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596006977
Covering the C programming language and C runtime library, this book is
destined to be a constant companion in your work. "C in a Nutshell"
covers virtually everything you need to program in C. Topics include
runtime library calls, common compiler options, and questions of C
syntax and usage. Not to be missed by C programmers of all levels.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/cinanut/>

Chapter 10, "Structures, Unions, and Bit-Fields," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/cinanut/chapter/index.html>


***SQL Cookbook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009763
This convenient guide is for anyone who wants to take his or her SQL
skills to the next level. Packed with over 200 recipes, the SQL Cookbook
helps you conquer common data query and manipulation problems, including
those related to window functions, data warehousing, and string
manipulation. Features an easy-to-grasp problem/solution discussion
format.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/sqlckbk/>


***InDesign Production Cookbook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100485
Whether you're an experienced designer or a desktop publisher new to
InDesign CS2, you'll find "InDesign Production Cookbook" chock-full of
useful information, with quick solutions to real-world layout
challenges. From handling typography and applying color and transparency
to building tables and multi-page documents, the unique combination of
concise explanations, expert tips, and practical recipes makes this the
ultimate, no-nonsense production guide for every InDesign user.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/indesigncook/>

A sample excerpt, "Nested Styles, Working With Images and The Pen Tool,"
is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/indesigncook/chapter/index.html>


***Run Your Own Web Server Using Linux & Apache
Publisher: SitePoint
ISBN: 0975240226
Learn to install Linux and Apache 2.0 on a home or office computer for
testing and development, and then learn how to perform dozens of common
administration, security and optimization tasks related to using Linux
for web hosting. Save thousands on expensive third party support and
maintenance.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0975240226/index.html>


***Linux Server Hacks, Volume Two
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100825
This handy reference offers 100 completely new server management tips
and techniques designed to improve your productivity and sharpen your
administrative skills. Each hack represents a clever way to accomplish a
specific task, saving you countless hours of searching for the right
answer. And you don't have to be a system administrator with hundreds of
boxes to get something useful from this book as many of the hacks apply
equally well to a single system or a home network. Whether they help you
recover lost data, collect information from distributed clients, or
synchronize administrative environments, the solutions found in "Linux
Server Hacks, Volume Two" will simplify your life as a system
administrator.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/morelnxsvrhks/index.html>

Sample Hacks such as "Autostart VNC Servers on Demand," can be found
online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/morelnxsvrhks/chapter/index.html>


***OS X for Hackers at Heart
Publisher: Syngress
ISBN: 1597490407
With sexy hardware, a powerful operating system, and easy to use
applications, Apple has made OS X the operating system of choice for
hackers everywhere. But as great as OS X is out of the box, hackers are
eager to push the boundaries by tweaking and tuning the software and
hardware in order to do the things that really excite them such as
penetration testing or software development. These modifications are
often sexy in their own right and drive the OS X community even deeper
into the realm of "elite." This book attempts to capture these
purpose-driven modifications and shows how the best and brightest use OS
X to do cutting edge research, development, and just plain fooling
around.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1597490407/index.html>


***Running Linux, 5 Ed.
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007604
The fifth edition of "Running Linux" is greatly expanded, reflecting the
maturity of the operating system and the teeming wealth of software
available for it. Hot consumer topics such as audio and video playback
applications, groupware functionality, and spam filtering are covered,
along with the basics in configuration and management that always made
the book popular.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/runlinux5/>

Chapter 6, "Electronic Mail Clients," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/runlinux5/chapter/index.html>


***Sarbanes-Oxley IT Compliance Using COBIT and Open Source Tools
Publisher: Syngress
ISBN: 1597490369
Whether you work for a publicly traded or pre-IPO company or an IT
consultant, you are familiar with the daunting task of complying with
The Sarbanes-Oxley Act. You have no doubt seen the hour and dollar
estimates for compliance go up and up. Now, you can re-grain control.
This ground-breaking, fully integrated book and bootable, live CD
provide all of the information AND the open source tools required for
you to achieve SOX compliance the cheap and easy way.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1597490369/index.html>


***Securing IM and P2P Applications for the Enterprise
Publisher: Syngress
November 2005 
ISBN: 1597490172
As an IT Professional, you know that the majority of the workstations on
your network now contain IM and P2P applications that you did not
select, test, install, or configure. As a result, malicious hackers, as
well as virus and worm writers are targeting these inadequately secured
applications for attack This book will teach you how to take back
control of your workstations and reap the benefits provided by these
applications while protecting your network from the inherent dangers.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1597490172/index.html>


***VoIp Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101333
Interested in saving money, increasing productivity, or just impressing
your friends? If so, then "VoIP Hacks" can show you how. This practical
guide offers dozens of clever tips, tricks, and techniques for working
with VoIP, the cool technology that makes phone service via the Internet
possible. Hack your way to the phone service of the future-today.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/voiphks/index.html>

Sample Hacks such as "Wire Your House Phones for VoIP" can be found
online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/voiphks/chapter/index.html>


***VB Express 2005: Now Playing
Publisher: No Starch Press
ISBN: 1593270593
A true guide for beginners, "Now Playing: Visual Basic 2005 Express"
starts off with a short primer on how programming works, regardless of
the programming language used. Once readers understand the general
principles behind computer programming, the book then teaches readers
how to use the Visual Basic Express program itself and how to write
programs using the Visual Basic language.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/15932700593/index.html>


***Running Mac OS X Tiger
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009135
"Running Mac OS X Tiger" is the ideal resource for power users and
system administrators who want to tweak Tiger to run faster, better, or
just differently. Easy to follow and intuitively organized, the book
helps you understand the inner workings of Mac OS X so you can know how
to get the most out of it and become master of your Mac.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/runmacx2/index.html>


***Dreamweaver 8: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100566
Macromedia's Dreamweaver 8 is a professional web design and development
program offering drag-and-drop simplicity, streamlined HTML coding
tools, and powerful database integration features. But Dreamweaver 8 is
missing one vital component: a printed manual. Enter "Dreamweaver 8: The
Missing Manual," the completely revised fourth edition of this
bestselling book by David McFarland. With crystal-clear writing and more
than 500 illustrations, it's the ultimate atlas for Dreamweaver 8.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dreamweaver8tmm/index.html>

Chapter 17, "Templates," is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dreamweaver8tmm/chapter/index.html>


***PCs: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100930
"PCs: The Missing Manual" delivers everything you need to know about
PCs. From hooking everything up to configuring today's must-have digital
media devices; burning CDs and DVDs, setting up blogs and webcams;
networking several computers to accessing TV and radio online, there's
something for everyone.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pcstmm/index.html>


***Virtualization with VMware ESX Server
Publisher: Syngress
ISBN: 1597490199
This book provides the essential concepts as well as an advanced
understanding of VMware's ESX Server and explains what the virtual
evolution is and why it is important. This book gives you the requisite
knowledge to plan and execute a server consolidation project as well as
build both basic and advanced virtual machines and a virtual
infrastructure.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1597490199/index.html>


***Podcasting Pocket Guide
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596102305
Whether you're a listener or an aspiring podcaster, "Podcasting Pocket
Guide" is a non-technical guide for the non-geek who wants in on this
revolutionary new medium. This handy guide shows you how to tune into
unique and interesting podcasts and download them to your favorite
portable device and contains an introduction to creating, recording,
publishing, and finding an audience for your own, professional-quality
podcasts.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/podcastingpg/index.html>

A sample excerpt, "Finding, Subscribing to, and Listening to Podcasts,"
is available online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/podcastingpg/chapter/index.html>


***Phishing Exposed
Publisher: Syngress
ISBN: 159749030X
If you have ever received a phish, become a victim of a phish, or manage
the security of a major e-commerce or financial site, then you need to
read this book. The author of this book delivers the unconcealed
techniques of phishers including their evolving patterns, and how to
gain the upper hand against the ever-accelerating attacks they deploy.
Filled with elaborate and unprecedented forensics, "Phishing Exposed"
details techniques that system administrators, law enforcement, and
fraud investigators can exercise and learn more about their attacker and
their specific attack methods, enabling risk mitigation in many cases
before the attack occurs.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/159749030X/index.html>


***Digital Video Production Cookbook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100310
With clear, full-color, step-by-step instructions laid out in a
stunning, easy-to-follow format, "Digital Video Production Cookbook"
shows independent and amateur filmmakers how to create
sophisticated-looking visual effects, dramatic shots, and powerful
sequences using low-cost techniques adapted from high-end professional
practices. From shooting bluescreen effects and simulating weather
conditions to choreographing fistfights and chase scenes, this is the
ultimate, no-nonsense resource for every aspiring digital filmmaker.
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/digvidprod/index.html>

A sample excerpt, "Particles of Light & Water Camera," is available
online:
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/digvidprod/chapter/index.html>

================================================
Upcoming Events
================================================
***For more events, please see:
<http://events.oreilly.com/>

***Peter Krogh ("The DAM Book") Presents iView MediaPro
Workshop, Kensington, MD--January 5
Peter offers a new program especially for digital photographers looking
to implement iView MediaPro in a professional photography workflow.
<http://www.peterkrogh.com/Pages/digital/digital_asset_management_seminar.html#anchoriview>

***Peter Krogh ("The DAM Book") offers DAM for Working Photographers 
Workshop,Kensington, MD--January 3
Peter offer a hands-on program for digital photographers looking to
streamline their workflow with Adobe Bridge and Digital Asset Management
software.
<http://www.peterkrogh.com/Pages/digitaldigital_asset_management_seminar.html#anchorDAM>


***Scott MacHaffie ("Palm and Treo Hacks") at Powell's Technical Books, 
 Portland, OR--January 7
Scott will sharing  tips and tools that show you how to make the most of
your Palm and Treo. 
<http://www.powells.com/calendar.html>


***Tom Limoncelli ("Time Management for System Administrators") at
 BBLISA, Boston, MA--Jan??22
Tom discusses techniques he's developed over the last 15 years including
how to find time to get projects done, the best way to manage
interruptions from users, open source tools for tracking requests, and
how to turn chaos into free time.
<http://www.bblisa.org/calendar.html>


***Derrick Story ("Digital Photography Pocket Guide, 3rd Ed," "iPhoto
5: The Missing Manual") at NCMUG, Rohnert Park, CA--Feb??21, 2006
Derrick presents "Dumb DigiPhoto Tricks" to the North Coast Mac Users
Group. There are so many serious things to do with you Mac that
sometimes we forget to play. Join Derrick as he shows you how to
entertain yourself (and friends) with digital photography toys and your
Mac.
<http://www.ncmug.org/events.html#Feb2006>

================================================
Conference News
================================================
***ETech Registration is Open
We're five years into the O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference and
the stuff of which it is made shows no sign of abating: bandwidth
continues to broaden, storage grows ever larger and cheaper, and content
keeps pouring from the firehose. How do we visualize all of this digital
data, filter it, remix it, and access it in meaningful ways? The coming
technical challenge is not about generating digital content-we have more
than enough already. It's time to do something with that data. It's time
to build The Attention Economy.

O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference, March 6-9, 2006
Manchester Grand Hyatt, San Diego, CA
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/etech/>

User Group members who register before January 16, 2006 get a double
discount. Use code "et06dsug" when you register, and receive 20% off
the early registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/43/register.html>


***New 40% discount for ETel--Early Registration Pricing Ends January 9
The early registration deadline for O'Reilly's Emerging Telephony
Conference (ETel) has been extended to January 9th. Join us on January
24-26 in San Francisco when telephony's key figures, like Jim Van
Meggelen, Peter Cochrane, Mark Spencer, Norman Lewis, and Clay Shirkey,
convene to provide a high-level perspective of the future of telephony.
And as a special offer to our friends, save an additional 40% when you 
register using code etel06lms.
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/etel/>

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/etel2006/create/ord_etel06>


================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***Reader Created Tagged Bibliography for "Ambient Findability"
Livia Labate has taken "Ambient Findability's" bibliography ("Ambient
Findability" is Peter Morville's highly readable and provocative book
on, well, findability), entered the URL of each entry into her page at
del.icio.us, and tagged each "ambientfindability," thus making the
bibliography entries more ambiently findable. For example, you'll notice
that 13 other people have bookmarked Gene Smith's "Beyond the Page,"
making it a good jumping off point to amble findably through related
works. [Tags: tagging taxonomy PeterMorville AmbientFindability
EverythingIsMiscellaneous]
<http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/tagged_bibliography.html>


***eBay Developer Challenge 2006 
eBay and O'Reilly are sponsoring a coding contest for applications built
on eBay web services: the eBay Developer Challenge 2006. This contest
encourages the development of great tools that the eBay community will
love. Winners will be announced at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology
Conference in San Diego in March.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/12/05/ebay-developer-challenge-2006.html>


***Attention Span 
Are you paying full attention to anything you do these days? Probably
not. Whether at work or at home, you probably are distracted by email,
IM, the telephone, the television, and countless other distractions. We
begin this podcast with Linda Stone talking about Continuous Partial
Attention from her SuperNova address "Your Attention Please." Paul
Graham compares amateurs and professionals in his OSCON keynote "What
Business Can Learn from Open Source." We respond to a listener comment
on a story we ran last week and conclude with Ernie Prabhakar on open
source from infancy to adulthood. (DTF 008 beta: 24 minutes, 30 seconds,
13.9MB)
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/12/12/distributing-the-future.html>


***Time Management on Google Video
Tom Limoncelli??recently produced a 45-minute video that highlights many
of the techniques in his new book, "Time Management for System
Administrators."
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8630>


***User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning 
Lab Courses--Ends December 31
As an O'Reilly User Group member, you save on all the courses in the
following University of Illinois Certificate Series:
-Linux/Unix System Administration 
-Web Programming
-Open Source Programming
-.NET Programming
-Client-Side

This offer ends December 31st, 2005.  To redeem, use Promotion Code
"ORALL1" to save 50%. Each course comes with a free O'Reilly book and a
7-day money-back guarantee. Register online:
<http://learninglab.oreilly.com/>

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***Through Project Looking Glass with Hideya Kawahara 
3D has taken over video gaming. When will it take over mundane computing
areas such as file managers, word processors, and desktop environments?
Maybe soon, if Hideya Kawahara and the Project Looking Glass team have
their way. John Littler explores the ideas, implementations, and
possibilities of 3D interfaces in this interview.
<http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2005/12/08/project_looking_glass.html>


***Managing TV with XMLTV 
XMLTV is a set of open source utilities for working with television
schedules. It's not just for people building their own PVRs,
though--with a little cleverness, you can build your own schedule
applications. Brian Murray shows how he manages his family's
entertainment time.
<http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/12/08/xmltv.html>

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***MacVoices #515: Home Networking with Scott Lowe
Scott Lowe, author of the "Home Networking: The Missing Manual" talks
with Chuck Joiner about the benefits and logistics of creating a home
network. Why would you want one? What are your options? What are the
pros and cons of each? Scott talks about wireless, Ethernet and
Powerline, how to choose, and what you can do with them once they are
set up.
<http://www.macvoices.com/archives/2005/515.html>


***Managing MySQL on Mac OS X 
There are myriad ways to control and manipulate information on a MySQL
server--some are stand-alone GUI apps, some are web-based, and of course
the venerable (and powerful) command-line option is always available.
Robert Daeley shows some of the most useful tools.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/12/13/mysql.html>

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***What Is Virtualization?
Virtualization lets you have multiple "virtual machines," each with its
own operating system running in a sandbox, shielded from each other, all
in one physical machine. But why would you want to do this? Wei-Meng Lee
explains, and takes you on a tour of some of the most popular
virtualization software available: Microsoft Virtual PC 2004, VMware
Workstation 5.0, and Microsoft Virtual Server 2005.
<http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/12/06/what-is-virtualization.html>


***Identifying Essential Windows Services: Part 2 
In Part 1 of this series, Mitch Tulloch, author of Windows Server Hacks,
showed you how to identify which basic server services are essential,
and which can be turned off. In this second part, he shows you
additional services for servers configured with specific roles.
<http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/12/13/identifying-essential-windows-services-2.html>


***Work Around Word XP's AutoCorrect Change
THE ANNOYANCE: When I upgraded to Word 2002 a month ago, I found my
AutoCorrect entries stopped working. In Word 97 and Word 2000
AutoCorrect, typing an abbreviated form immediately after a period will
cause the long form to display???but not in Word 2002.
I type many hundreds of measurements in millimeters and centimeters
every day, and have therefore created AutoCorrect entries to save
keystrokes. For example, in Word 2002, I type "1m" and "1 mm" displays,
"3c" and "3 cm" displays, saving me two keystrokes each time. Also I
type "1.5m" and "1.5 mm" displays, "3.25c" and "3.25 cm" displays.
<http://www.annoyancescentral.com/experts/>

---------------------
Web
---------------------
***Turn a Client Site into Saleable Software Find out how to turn your
Web Design projects into software that you can sell again and again at
big profits with this in-depth guide.
<http://www.sitepoint.com/article/client-site-saleable-software>


***How to choose a product for eCommerce
Trying to decide what to sell on the Web? Chris Beasley offers some
handy guidelines on what to sell online.
<http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/11/23/how-to-choose-a-product-for-ecommerce/>


***You Have to Try This on Google
Google offers a fantastic service which offers you an insider's glimpse
at how Google views your web site.
<http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/11/16/google-sitemaps/>

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Hibernate Class Generation Using hbm2java 
Hibernate uses mapping files to express the mapping of Java classes to
database tables. In a complex project, keeping mappings in sync with
your Java code can be burdensome and error-prone. Fortunately, the
hbm2java tool can automate this by generating POJO classes from the
mapping files. John Ferguson Smart shows how to use hbm2java with Ant
and Maven, and how to customize the behavior of the generated classes.
<http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/12/14/hibernate-class-generation-with-hbm2java.html>


***Lightweight O/R Mapping 
O/R frameworks map Java classes to database tables and SQL code. While
popular, this approach is unpopular among DBAs, with the database at the
mercy of an external tool. Another approach is to go the other
direction: write tables and stored procedures and generate Java classes
from that. Norbert Ehreke introduces Amber, a framework that embodies
this approach.
<http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/12/07/relational-object-mapping.html>

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***Five Fun Ways to Play with Audio Hijack Pro 
It's like a sound lab on your Mac--with Audio Hijack Pro you can
digitize legacy music, time-shift radio shows, and even repurpose your
legally purchased music. Erica Sadun shows you five of her favorite AHP
tips.
<http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/12/02/audio-hijack.html>


***Introduction to the Variations Color Correction Tool in Photoshop
Photoshop's Variations tool simplifies color correction by presenting
you with visual options in realtime. In this training video, Deke
McClelland shows you how perform simple color correction quickly.
<http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/12/05/variations-color-correction.html>

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***Meet Your Fellow Makers
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From dlavigne6  Sat Dec 17 12:08:34 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:08:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] blog on male/female Open Source ratio
Message-ID: <20051217120756.Y544@dru.domain.org>


http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/unix/bsd/archives/006968.asp

Dru



From lists  Sun Dec 18 10:53:26 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:53:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] DragonFly news
Message-ID: <20051218105326.4401bc29@wit.genoverly.home>

Don't know if anyone is following this, but they have some big plans
for Q1 2006.

http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/kernel/2005-12/msg00040.html

-- 

Michael





From nomadlogic  Sun Dec 18 11:19:56 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:19:56 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] DragonFly news
In-Reply-To: <20051218105326.4401bc29@wit.genoverly.home>
References: <20051218105326.4401bc29@wit.genoverly.home>
Message-ID: <57d710000512180819g16ec32bh83286e26cc8a3d3c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> Don't know if anyone is following this, but they have some big plans
> for Q1 2006.
>
> http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/kernel/2005-12/msg00040.html
>

ZFS would be quite nice :)

-p



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From marco  Sun Dec 18 12:47:44 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:47:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD help (segfaults on Sunday)
Message-ID: <20051218174744.GB14173@ns.metm.org>

Hello everyone, sorry I couldn't make it to the party last night, hope
it was fun.

I am getting some weird log messages on a FreeBSD 5.4 box which I am
using mainly as an svn host and file server for myself.  I setup one
jail which is hosting a php/mysql app called Drupal (which is exposed to
the world).  The machine is behind a firewall which forwards two ports
to the box: 22 for ssh and ssh+svn to the main machine 192.168.1.11 and
port 80 to the jail 192.168.1.12  lately I have been getting many
strange messages in the kernel log output which I hope some of you can
help me to interpret.  Despite the messages, the box seems to be fine
any services I use are up and doing fine.

There are many connections to 512 which sounds scary (rexec) but from
localhost to localhost,  and to 113 (ident)  I've been getting these for
a while, but chalked it up to some internal things which may be common
to FreeBSD.  Recently (last week or so) there have been many segfaults
(signal 11) and aborts (signal 6) of random applications: like today
sendmail, but also had perl and httpd segfault (signal 11 repeated
times).  I rebooted a few days ago and the segfaults/aborts went away
for a few days, now they are back in force:

> pid 19721 (sendmail), uid 0: exited on signal 6
> Connection attempt to UDP 127.0.0.1:512 from 127.0.0.1:60950
> pid 19722 (sendmail), uid 0: exited on signal 6
> pid 19730 (sendmail), uid 0: exited on signal 6
> pid 19848 (sendmail), uid 0: exited on signal 6
> Connection attempt to TCP 192.168.1.12:113 from 192.168.1.12:52404
> flags:0x02
> Connection attempt to UDP 192.168.1.12:512 from 192.168.1.12:52096
> Connection attempt to TCP 192.168.1.12:113 from 192.168.1.12:58066
> flags:0x02
> Connection attempt to UDP 192.168.1.12:512 from 192.168.1.12:54896
> Connection attempt to TCP 127.0.0.1:113 from 127.0.0.1:51821
> flags:0x02
> pid 19990 (sendmail), uid 0: exited on signal 6

Pointers appreciated,

-- 
Marco



From jbaltz  Mon Dec 19 09:23:52 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:23:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] helix server
 =?iso-8859-1?q?=28ne=E9_realserver=29_on_FreeBSD_5?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?=2Ex_=28x_=2Ege=2E_3=29?=
Message-ID: <43A6C278.10801@3phasecomputing.com>

Comrades:

Does anyone have any experience running the Helix streaming server on 
FBSD 5.x (or 6)?

I've got it set up for someone now and we're finding it's totally 
crushing the machine (load average .gt. 10 and slow interactive response 
times) with just a few streams flowing; it seems odd.

Thanks!

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From ike  Mon Dec 19 15:49:55 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:49:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
Message-ID: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Not a *BSD topic per-se, but just wanted to shout out on this one  
because:

1) It's a common conversation for us to swap sob stories about  
Verizon problems

2) I found a nifty service/solution

After some insane service problems with verizon, (yet another  
client's T1 with regular outages), I was luckily cold-called by a  
TowerStream representative, selling 'Pre-WiMax' internet service.

http://towerstream.com

Basically, after doing my homework, it goes like this:
WiMax, (802.16) is a wireless spec that has not been ratified by  
standards bodies yet.

With that, hardware vendors and service providers are chomping at the  
bit to provide service, and are doing so.  Here's what's cool about  
WiMax:

- 30 mile range for line-of-sight networks (yikes!)
- up to 100mbit synchronous
- Very robust radio band, weather doesn't hurt it etc...

--
With that, I sadly replaced T1 service for this client with a  
TowerStream line, for no matter which T1 service provider we went  
with, Verizon created massive problems in keeping us (and our  
neighbors!!!) online.  We got a package which costs $40 more than  
your average T1, same 99.9% uptime SLA, and can burst to 5mbit...  
(they sell up to 100mbit pipes, but that's pricey for our needs...).

Anyhow, I'll be hammering this line, as will everyone in the offiice-  
but so far, so good- though I'm sad not to use one our the local T1  
providers, (lots of providers on this list have promoted and  
participated in NYC*BUG activities).
But no Verizon holding our pipes here...  I can't express my relief  
in words here :)

--
Next thought, anyone seen any PCI or MiniPCI cards for doing 802.16  
wireless?  (something like the Sangoma cards for Soekris...)  ;)   
NYC*BUG all-burroughs IPV6 lan anyone? (no throwing rotten fruit at  
me for that one...)

Rocket-
.ike





From chsnyder  Mon Dec 19 18:11:25 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:11:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/19/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> Hey All,
>
> Not a *BSD topic per-se, but just wanted to shout out on this one
> because:
>
> 1) It's a common conversation for us to swap sob stories about
> Verizon problems
>
> 2) I found a nifty service/solution
>
> After some insane service problems with verizon, (yet another
> client's T1 with regular outages), I was luckily cold-called by a
> TowerStream representative, selling 'Pre-WiMax' internet service.
>
> http://towerstream.com
>
> Basically, after doing my homework, it goes like this:
> WiMax, (802.16) is a wireless spec that has not been ratified by
> standards bodies yet.
>
> With that, hardware vendors and service providers are chomping at the
> bit to provide service, and are doing so.  Here's what's cool about
> WiMax:
>
> - 30 mile range for line-of-sight networks (yikes!)
> - up to 100mbit synchronous
> - Very robust radio band, weather doesn't hurt it etc...
>
> --
> With that, I sadly replaced T1 service for this client with a
> TowerStream line, for no matter which T1 service provider we went
> with, Verizon created massive problems in keeping us (and our
> neighbors!!!) online.  We got a package which costs $40 more than
> your average T1, same 99.9% uptime SLA, and can burst to 5mbit...
> (they sell up to 100mbit pipes, but that's pricey for our needs...).
>
> Anyhow, I'll be hammering this line, as will everyone in the offiice-
> but so far, so good- though I'm sad not to use one our the local T1
> providers, (lots of providers on this list have promoted and
> participated in NYC*BUG activities).
> But no Verizon holding our pipes here...  I can't express my relief
> in words here :)
>
> --
> Next thought, anyone seen any PCI or MiniPCI cards for doing 802.16
> wireless?  (something like the Sangoma cards for Soekris...)  ;)
> NYC*BUG all-burroughs IPV6 lan anyone? (no throwing rotten fruit at
> me for that one...)
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>


Oooh boy, I have a big fat sob story pegged to TowerStream. The
service was great when it worked... and then there were the other
days.

In theory it's a great replacement for the landline, and could give
you the geographically diverse, redundant connection you've been
dreaming of. But based on nine months of experience with them (over
two different midtown transmitters and a series of receivers), I have
to caution against using them for anything other than a backup, unless
you can afford to be off the air (or flapping) for a few hours now and
then.

They were really nice about cancelling our contract, though. Nicer
than Verizon would be, that's for sure.


From trish  Mon Dec 19 18:42:59 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:42:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20051219184049.S795@daemon.bsdunix.net>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
> with regular outages), I was luckily cold-called by a TowerStream 
> representative, selling 'Pre-WiMax' internet service.
>
> http://towerstream.com
>

Let me know how it works, and also, let me know if anyone has gotten in 
touch with you yet from here, or do I make some heads roll?

Seriously though, I've been thinking about this since the office is line 
of sight from both the MetLife and Empire State Buildings..... seems like 
it would be a good solution for my office bandwidth woes, but I've been 
very hesitant since its not tested. Let me know how it goes....

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From george  Mon Dec 19 21:39:01 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:39:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <20051219184049.S795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<20051219184049.S795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <43A76EC5.6020400@sddi.net>

Trish Lynch wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
>> Hey All,
>> with regular outages), I was luckily cold-called by a TowerStream 
>> representative, selling 'Pre-WiMax' internet service.
>>
>> http://towerstream.com
>>
> 
> Let me know how it works, and also, let me know if anyone has gotten in 
> touch with you yet from here, or do I make some heads roll?
> 
> Seriously though, I've been thinking about this since the office is line 
> of sight from both the MetLife and Empire State Buildings..... seems 
> like it would be a good solution for my office bandwidth woes, but I've 
> been very hesitant since its not tested. Let me know how it goes....

(IMO, total appropriate for this list, .I)

If it's not accepted as a standard yet, I would be hesitant to use in 
production. . . whether it's with about hardware interfaces to the 
connection or whatever.

But now let's see if I have line of sight with Ike. . .

Can you give us an idea on pricing?

g



From ephillips  Mon Dec 19 22:10:17 2005
From: ephillips (Erik Phillips)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:10:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Terminal Server for *nix
Message-ID: <20051219221017.2uoo3ip4ow4ogkcw@free.loftmail.com>

Quick question.  Any success stories installing nxserver 
(nomachine.com) from ports or via package.  I'm just a beginner, but it 
appears that all the documentation around this is way to complex or I'm 
not understanding it correctly.   Any insight or direction would be 
greatly appreciated!!!  I'm trying to educate my tunneled vision 
superiors about reliability and depending on the configuration, the 
cost effectiveness of *nix, but *bsd to precise.  Lame plug, but hey 
I'm trying to gather followers by any means. -ep-

--
http://www.loftmail.com




From ike  Tue Dec 20 10:57:58 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:57:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

On Dec 19, 2005, at 6:11 PM, csnyder wrote:

> Oooh boy, I have a big fat sob story pegged to TowerStream. The
> service was great when it worked... and then there were the other
> days.

Good to know...

>
> In theory it's a great replacement for the landline, and could give
> you the geographically diverse, redundant connection you've been
> dreaming of. But based on nine months of experience with them (over
> two different midtown transmitters and a series of receivers), I have
> to caution against using them for anything other than a backup, unless
> you can afford to be off the air (or flapping) for a few hours now and
> then.

Sounds OK for my current application, a hard-use office LAN, (and  
Verizon was popping out for 12-48 hrs at a time), so we figured it  
can't be any worse than that :)

>
> They were really nice about cancelling our contract, though. Nicer
> than Verizon would be, that's for sure.

<snirk> I'd bet- they've been very cool to work with so far.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Tue Dec 20 11:09:31 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:09:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <43A76EC5.6020400@sddi.net>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<20051219184049.S795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<43A76EC5.6020400@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <C0CD4866-CDB1-4011-B76C-BEB940DD8FDD@lesmuug.org>


On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:39 PM, George R. wrote:

> Trish Lynch wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>> Hey All,
>>> with regular outages), I was luckily cold-called by a TowerStream  
>>> representative, selling 'Pre-WiMax' internet service.
>>>
>>> http://towerstream.com
>>>
>> Let me know how it works, and also, let me know if anyone has  
>> gotten in touch with you yet from here, or do I make some heads roll?
>> Seriously though, I've been thinking about this since the office  
>> is line of sight from both the MetLife and Empire State  
>> Buildings..... seems like it would be a good solution for my  
>> office bandwidth woes, but I've been very hesitant since its not  
>> tested. Let me know how it goes....
>
> (IMO, total appropriate for this list, .I)
>
> If it's not accepted as a standard yet, I would be hesitant to use  
> in production. . . whether it's with about hardware interfaces to  
> the connection or whatever.

Agreed- I'm lucky with this office lan, perfect test case office  
since it can't be any worse than Verizon and T1 probs.

>
> But now let's see if I have line of sight with Ike. . .

Actually, from my roof, I can see EVERYTHING- mahnattan, downtown  
brooklyn, everything...
I repeat: Does Sangoma make a 802.16 card yet?!?

>
> Can you give us an idea on pricing?
>
> g

$495 for guaranteed 1.5mbit synchronous, burstable to 5mbit based on  
network availability- (so far it's sitting pretty at about 2.8mbit  
syncrhonous avg, and I've seen a few bursts over 3.5mbit).

Just a wee bit pricier than a T1.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Tue Dec 20 11:15:06 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:15:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <BFCCD9EF.3DD97%jfreeman@nybg.org>
References: <BFCCD9EF.3DD97%jfreeman@nybg.org>
Message-ID: <293F73CD-823E-472F-AB41-6B923DB1A23A@lesmuug.org>

Hi Josh, Trish,

On Dec 19, 2005, at 6:42 PM, Trish Lynch wrote:
>
> Seriously though, I've been thinking about this since the office is  
> line of sight from both the MetLife and Empire State Buildings.....  
> seems like it would be a good solution for my office bandwidth  
> woes, but I've been very hesitant since its not tested. Let me know  
> how it goes....
>
> -Trish

I'll keep reporting to list- but anyone can feel free to contact me  
for an unbiased report of the service if your thinking about it  
sometime down the line...


On Dec 19, 2005, at 9:43 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote:

> Isaac,
>
> Any latency issues?  We're looking at towerstream too but the  
> latency seems
> 2x copper.
>
> J.

Josh: are there any tests you'd like me to run for you to show this?   
So far, the overall speed is definitely much faster than the T1 this  
is replacing.

For anyone:  I'll totally run any network tests people can email me  
with, just email me with instructions in this thread- (I'm hoping to  
learn some new tools for network performance monitoring while I'm at  
this? :)

Rocket-
.ike





From nomadlogic  Tue Dec 20 11:29:20 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:29:20 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Terminal Server for *nix
In-Reply-To: <20051219221017.2uoo3ip4ow4ogkcw@free.loftmail.com>
References: <20051219221017.2uoo3ip4ow4ogkcw@free.loftmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512200829h422ca42bn81fdf007cf199530@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/19/05, Erik Phillips <ephillips at loftmail.com> wrote:
> Quick question.  Any success stories installing nxserver
> (nomachine.com) from ports or via package.  I'm just a beginner, but it
> appears that all the documentation around this is way to complex or I'm
> not understanding it correctly.   Any insight or direction would be
> greatly appreciated!!!  I'm trying to educate my tunneled vision
> superiors about reliability and depending on the configuration, the
> cost effectiveness of *nix, but *bsd to precise.  Lame plug, but hey
> I'm trying to gather followers by any means. -ep-
>

a little confused here, you want to run nxserver on your BSD box for
remote management?  I was a little confused by this product, does it
just provide a remote desktop (like VNC) or is it more like virtual
machine ala VMWare?  If this is a VNC replacement type application I
would go with tightvnc...or better yet leverage the power of the unix
way of doing things and use a shell ;p

-p



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From spork  Tue Dec 20 11:49:17 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:49:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <293F73CD-823E-472F-AB41-6B923DB1A23A@lesmuug.org>
References: <BFCCD9EF.3DD97%jfreeman@nybg.org>
	<293F73CD-823E-472F-AB41-6B923DB1A23A@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201145560.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Josh: are there any tests you'd like me to run for you to show this?  So far, 
> the overall speed is definitely much faster than the T1 this is replacing.

What's the round trip time to the far end router?

> For anyone:  I'll totally run any network tests people can email me with, 
> just email me with instructions in this thread- (I'm hoping to learn some new 
> tools for network performance monitoring while I'm at this? :)

This tool is good to look at latency, loss and jitter all at once.

Wireless usually looks all over the map with it:

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~oetiker/webtools/smokeping/

It's very nice for helping decide whether you want to run VoIP or any 
other jitter/loss sensitive service.

C

> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nomadlogic  Tue Dec 20 12:20:39 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:20:39 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Terminal Server for *nix
In-Reply-To: <20051220115253.s4ird9w4owog0sws@free.loftmail.com>
References: <20051219221017.2uoo3ip4ow4ogkcw@free.loftmail.com>
	<57d710000512200829h422ca42bn81fdf007cf199530@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051220115253.s4ird9w4owog0sws@free.loftmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000512200920y4b80f07x2c8c3b77a473bb2f@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/20/05, Erik Phillips <ephillips at loftmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think its a vnc or vmware type of program.  According to their
> site, it is a terminal server for *nix.  I'm trying to run a few
> diskless workstations and would like to have openoffice or abiword, a
> browser (opera/firefox), email (evolution with exchange
> connector,thunderbird), etc....  Not sure, but I believe you can
> configure xdm to work the same way.  Is this correct?  Basically I have
> my bsd box with the apps I need and would like to have that available
> at another location.  Does this make any sense?
>
> I do apologize for any confusion.
heh, don't apologize this is pretty interesting stuff IMO :)

 (cc'ing talk@ as I think other folks may have some insight on this)

Ahh I get it....so you have a pretty beefy server (some 64bit procs, a
ton of ram and some fast redundant storage attached to it) and would
basicly like to run your app's off it.  got it.

i've tried to go the full thin client route a couple times (and saw an
awesome demo from sun a bit back too).  One of the most interesting
solutions that could be done relativly cheaply was via netbooting the
diskless workstations off a centralized server.  Each client load an
OS image and X into a RAM disk and then access the windowmanger and
applications via a NFS volume (in this example the thinclient can be
anything from a true X terminal to a cheap/old pc with ram and a
pxebooting capable network card).

having said that...i've done a little digging into NoMachines site and
under all the tech. fluf it looks like they are trying to do something
similar to what Apollo was doing back in the 80's or what
Plan9/InfernoOS is doing now:
http://www.nomachine.com/documentation/intr-technology.php
(see distributed architechture)

aside from the fact that they state the server run's only on Linux it
looks pretty fun...


-p


>
> erik
>
> Quoting pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com>:
>
> > On 12/19/05, Erik Phillips <ephillips at loftmail.com> wrote:
> >> Quick question.  Any success stories installing nxserver
> >> (nomachine.com) from ports or via package.  I'm just a beginner, but it
> >> appears that all the documentation around this is way to complex or I'm
> >> not understanding it correctly.   Any insight or direction would be
> >> greatly appreciated!!!  I'm trying to educate my tunneled vision
> >> superiors about reliability and depending on the configuration, the
> >> cost effectiveness of *nix, but *bsd to precise.  Lame plug, but hey
> >> I'm trying to gather followers by any means. -ep-
> >>
> >
> > a little confused here, you want to run nxserver on your BSD box for
> > remote management?  I was a little confused by this product, does it
> > just provide a remote desktop (like VNC) or is it more like virtual
> > machine ala VMWare?  If this is a VNC replacement type application I
> > would go with tightvnc...or better yet leverage the power of the unix
> > way of doing things and use a shell ;p
> >
> > -p
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ~~o0OO0o~~
> > Pete Wright
> > www.nycbug.org
> > NYC's *BSD User Group
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.loftmail.com
>
>


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From nycbug-list  Tue Dec 20 12:28:10 2005
From: nycbug-list (Jonathan Vanasco)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:28:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
> Sounds OK for my current application, a hard-use office LAN, (and  
> Verizon was popping out for 12-48 hrs at a time), so we figured it  
> can't be any worse than that :)

Am I correct in guessing that this Is this the T1 nightmare you
inherited from me?

Cos yeah, that Verizon trunk was a (*#&$(*&% nightmare, and only  
reliable in the sense that you could count on it it constantly going  
down.  I remember even switching between 3 different providers that  
assured me that they would somehow route it through a different  
service - and then find out it was still the same verizon line.  The  
only difference in service I ever got were providers being more 'on  
the ball' about telling me that the verizon part of the line was  
having issues.

needless to say, it was definately worth paying the extra $100 a  
month from one provider to have them call me and say "we're sorry,  
but there's an issue on the verizon trunk" before I had to call them  
and say "look into this please"




From ike  Tue Dec 20 12:32:54 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
Message-ID: <593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>

Hi Jon,

On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Jonathan Vanasco wrote:

>
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>> Sounds OK for my current application, a hard-use office LAN, (and  
>> Verizon was popping out for 12-48 hrs at a time), so we figured it  
>> can't be any worse than that :)
>
> Am I correct in guessing that this Is this the T1 nightmare you
> inherited from me?

Ayup- indeed it is.  Wish you were here to see the it up man :)

>
> Cos yeah, that Verizon trunk was a (*#&$(*&% nightmare, and only  
> reliable in the sense that you could count on it it constantly  
> going down.  I remember even switching between 3 different  
> providers that assured me that they would somehow route it through  
> a different service - and then find out it was still the same  
> verizon line.  The only difference in service I ever got were  
> providers being more 'on the ball' about telling me that the  
> verizon part of the line was having issues.
>
> needless to say, it was definately worth paying the extra $100 a  
> month from one provider to have them call me and say "we're sorry,  
> but there's an issue on the verizon trunk" before I had to call  
> them and say "look into this please"

3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!

Rocket-
.ike





From lists  Tue Dec 20 12:47:42 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:47:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:

> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!

Was that a cheer and a call for privatization?

sshhh.. there are non-americans on this list.

-- 

Michael



From spork  Tue Dec 20 12:57:50 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:57:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi Jon,
>
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Jonathan Vanasco wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sounds OK for my current application, a hard-use office LAN, (and Verizon 
>>> was popping out for 12-48 hrs at a time), so we figured it can't be any 
>>> worse than that :)
>> 
>> Am I correct in guessing that this Is this the T1 nightmare you
>> inherited from me?
>
> Ayup- indeed it is.  Wish you were here to see the it up man :)

And Bway had the luck of being the last T1 provider (via Covad) to give it 
a shot.  I heard the short version of the install trauma via my coworker. 
I don't think there's a problem in relaying this since we all know that no 
matter what you do, if you run lines to a smallish building, there are no 
last mile alternatives.  If you're in a high-rise, then you have a few 
excellent things going for you:

-metro ethernet (which we are pushing hard anywhere that has the service)
-T1/T3 lines via a CLEC that has fiber in the building

In both cases you can be completely verizon free without worrying about 
the crowded NYC airwaves.  It's truly a shame that NYC has such an 
excellent density to sell wireless into, but it also has so much RF 
pollution that it's hit or miss.

Anyhow from what I gather, this last T1 install involved Verizon not only 
botching the T1 install for this office, but knocking out multiple T1s 
that belong to a very important client in the building, and then walking 
out without fixing it for quite some time.  Not a good way to make 
friends...

Right now we're starting to work with a salesman turned telco agent for 
direct VZ T1s.  Back when I worked with him at inch.com, he worked 
wonders with his secret VZ rolodex.  A botched job could be turned around 
the same day if you knew the digits to dial to get the right guy on the 
job.  I'm hoping he still has the magic touch.

In the past, I've seen problems like the one in Ike's customer's building 
solved by leaning on Verizon hard enough to get fiber and a mux installed 
in the building.  That usually brings you up to 5 9's reliability.  VZ is 
reluctant to do this in older/smaller buildings, but I've seen it happen 
if the building management allows this (no charge for the fiber + mux, but 
some buildings just don't want to give up a few square feet in the 
basement).  Usually when you see a "T1 from hell" it's copper from the CO 
to premise, and given the condition of VZ's copper plant in Manhattan, 
you're lucky if it works.

Charles

>> Cos yeah, that Verizon trunk was a (*#&$(*&% nightmare, and only reliable 
>> in the sense that you could count on it it constantly going down.  I 
>> remember even switching between 3 different providers that assured me that 
>> they would somehow route it through a different service - and then find out 
>> it was still the same verizon line.  The only difference in service I ever 
>> got were providers being more 'on the ball' about telling me that the 
>> verizon part of the line was having issues.
>> 
>> needless to say, it was definately worth paying the extra $100 a month from 
>> one provider to have them call me and say "we're sorry, but there's an 
>> issue on the verizon trunk" before I had to call them and say "look into 
>> this please"
>
> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From mikel.king  Tue Dec 20 12:59:29 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:59:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
Message-ID: <EFCC5EBA-68A2-4594-8215-C8B60CBAFBB7@ocsny.com>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
>> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>
> Was that a cheer and a call for privatization?
>
> sshhh.. there are non-americans on this list.
>
> --  
>
> Michael

Technically, it's a State endorsed monopoly not state controlled.  
They are already about as private as they can get. Sadly there are  
very few places/entities in NYC that can lay their own copper or  
fiber in the street without any involvement of Verizon overlords. 



From nycbug-list  Tue Dec 20 13:06:48 2005
From: nycbug-list (Jonathan)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:06:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
Message-ID: <AFE59AA0-F651-4365-B26B-97FA533278E2@2xlp.com>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> Anyhow from what I gather, this last T1 install involved Verizon  
> not only botching the T1 install for this office, but knocking out  
> multiple T1s that belong to a very important client in the  
> building, and then walking out without fixing it for quite some  
> time.  Not a good way to make friends...

I was actually very thankful to Verizon - we're best friends now.

2+ years of intermittent crap followed by 4 months of them having  
hardcore issues on their line gave me the insight to realize I was  
doing exactly what I didn't want to do.  So I up and left , and then  
Ike got screwed with it all.  Ha!



From dan  Tue Dec 20 13:21:51 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:21:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Strike, yep.  we know
Message-ID: <43A8056F.5533.A216618@dan.langille.org>

Yep, we know about the transit strike there in NYC.

Did you hear about our transit strike threat here a few weeks back?  
;)

Just a quick note that yeah, we thought about you this morning.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From okan  Tue Dec 20 13:23:03 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:23:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Strike, yep.  we know
In-Reply-To: <43A8056F.5533.A216618@dan.langille.org>
References: <43A8056F.5533.A216618@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <20051220182303.GA76620@yinaska.pair.com>

On Tue 2005.12.20 at 13:21 -0500, Dan Langille wrote:
> Yep, we know about the transit strike there in NYC.
> 
> Did you hear about our transit strike threat here a few weeks back?  
> ;)
> 
> Just a quick note that yeah, we thought about you this morning.

anybody see george on his bike?



From george  Tue Dec 20 13:26:58 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:26:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Strike, yep.  we know
In-Reply-To: <20051220182303.GA76620@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <43A8056F.5533.A216618@dan.langille.org>
	<20051220182303.GA76620@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <E89B5E8B-E2CB-470D-BC60-68E5200E0840@sddi.net>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Okan Demirmen wrote:

> On Tue 2005.12.20 at 13:21 -0500, Dan Langille wrote:
>> Yep, we know about the transit strike there in NYC.
>>
>> Did you hear about our transit strike threat here a few weeks back?
>> ;)
>>
>> Just a quick note that yeah, we thought about you this morning.
>
> anybody see george on his bike?

Made it to NYI. . . made decent time. . .

:-)

g



From ike  Tue Dec 20 13:46:31 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:46:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
Message-ID: <1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>

On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
>> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>
> Was that a cheer and a call for privatization?
>
> sshhh.. there are non-americans on this list.
>
> --  
>
> Michael

Actually, your right- look at what a great scene the wireless voice  
business is, now that ma' bell is no longer the monopoly (Cingular,  
AT&T, Verizon, TMobile, Sprint/Nextel, etc...)

Why is there so much greed (it seems), resulting in bad service, in  
the big-scale telco biz?  Is this just what happens when any idea  
scales to masses of people?  (parallel: internent standards are often  
the more inferior technological ideas, but we all agree to use them  
so they work...)  What makes this stuff tick?

Rocket-
.ike





From george  Tue Dec 20 13:52:55 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:52:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
	<1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <B66821B6-EE15-42CD-AE86-C86E3979C910@sddi.net>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, michael wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
>> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>>
>>> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>>
>> Was that a cheer and a call for privatization?
>>
>> sshhh.. there are non-americans on this list.
>>
>> --  
>> Michael
>
> Actually, your right- look at what a great scene the wireless voice  
> business is, now that ma' bell is no longer the monopoly (Cingular,  
> AT&T, Verizon, TMobile, Sprint/Nextel, etc...)

Oh, that's interesting. . . wireless is a 'good scene' in the US?

I actually think deregulation was the problem with telecom in the  
US. . . Bell Labs, .Ike?  Compare it before and after deregulation. . .

And AFAIK and have seen, the European scene is much better with GSM  
as the standard in terms of coverage, although not in terms of  
pricing (although incoming is free).  And AFAIK, the European GSM  
adoption was a basically pseudo-public/gov't endeavor . . .

g





From ike  Tue Dec 20 14:05:13 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:05:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <B66821B6-EE15-42CD-AE86-C86E3979C910@sddi.net>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
	<1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>
	<B66821B6-EE15-42CD-AE86-C86E3979C910@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <9217F86E-8837-4FEF-8745-8785CE7CA1D1@lesmuug.org>

NOooooo,

On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:52 PM, George R. wrote:

> On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, michael wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
>>> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>>>
>>> Was that a cheer and a call for privatization?
>>>
>>> sshhh.. there are non-americans on this list.
>>>
>>> -- Michael
>>
>> Actually, your right- look at what a great scene the wireless  
>> voice business is, now that ma' bell is no longer the monopoly  
>> (Cingular, AT&T, Verizon, TMobile, Sprint/Nextel, etc...)
>
> Oh, that's interesting. . . wireless is a 'good scene' in the US?

I was being sarcastic- I thought that was understood.

(I loathe my phone service, the policies, tactics, contracts,  
connectivity, phone handsets, everything doesn't meet my expectations  
based on the prices...)

>
> I actually think deregulation was the problem with telecom in the  
> US. . . Bell Labs, .Ike?  Compare it before and after  
> deregulation. . .

Word from the oldschool is that everyone hated Ma' Bell back in the  
day too...

>
> And AFAIK and have seen, the European scene is much better with GSM  
> as the standard in terms of coverage, although not in terms of  
> pricing (although incoming is free).  And AFAIK, the European GSM  
> adoption was a basically pseudo-public/gov't endeavor . . .
>
> g

Yep- but the Europeans actually have laws that protect and cover more  
abstract personal civil liberties, (things that reduce the meme- 
attacks of advertising, for example... in America we don't even begin  
to deal with such things [perhaps based on our religious, absolutist  
hanging-on to 19th century scientific idealism])...

What I'm saying is that we don't respect abstract mental/conceptual/ 
meme space much in America, so it doesn't surprise me that people  
elsewhere do this stuff better...

/me ponders the devaluation of my own .02?

Rocket-
.ike





From george  Tue Dec 20 14:13:19 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:13:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <9217F86E-8837-4FEF-8745-8785CE7CA1D1@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
	<1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>
	<B66821B6-EE15-42CD-AE86-C86E3979C910@sddi.net>
	<9217F86E-8837-4FEF-8745-8785CE7CA1D1@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <9E398787-FF46-491F-A7F5-6DE42D7CAFF1@sddi.net>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> NOooooo,

oh here we go. . .

>
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:52 PM, George R. wrote:
>
>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, michael wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:32:54 -0500
>>>> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>>>>
>>>> Was that a cheer and a call for privatization?
>>>>
>>>> sshhh.. there are non-americans on this list.
>>>>
>>>> -- Michael
>>>
>>> Actually, your right- look at what a great scene the wireless  
>>> voice business is, now that ma' bell is no longer the monopoly  
>>> (Cingular, AT&T, Verizon, TMobile, Sprint/Nextel, etc...)
>>
>> Oh, that's interesting. . . wireless is a 'good scene' in the US?
>
> I was being sarcastic- I thought that was understood.

Okay. . . and i meant cell phones. . . not wireless, of course. . .

>
> (I loathe my phone service, the policies, tactics, contracts,  
> connectivity, phone handsets, everything doesn't meet my  
> expectations based on the prices...)
>

phew. . . i was a bit worried there tiger. ;-)

>>
>> I actually think deregulation was the problem with telecom in the  
>> US. . . Bell Labs, .Ike?  Compare it before and after  
>> deregulation. . .
>
> Word from the oldschool is that everyone hated Ma' Bell back in the  
> day too...
>
>>
>> And AFAIK and have seen, the European scene is much better with  
>> GSM as the standard in terms of coverage, although not in terms of  
>> pricing (although incoming is free).  And AFAIK, the European GSM  
>> adoption was a basically pseudo-public/gov't endeavor . . .
>>
>> g
>
> Yep- but the Europeans actually have laws that protect and cover  
> more abstract personal civil liberties, (things that reduce the  
> meme-attacks of advertising, for example... in America we don't  
> even begin to deal with such things [perhaps based on our  
> religious, absolutist hanging-on to 19th century scientific  
> idealism])...

speaking of abstract!  Laws don't drop out of the sky, and the  
intense deregulation of the late 70's and early 80's in the US  
(airlines, trucking, telecom) concretely killed the innovation of  
Bell Labs.  Nothing about abstract laws.  I mean, most people in the  
US make the converse case by pointing to the Bill of Rights in the  
US. . . how funny, but equally nonsensical.

>
> What I'm saying is that we don't respect abstract mental/conceptual/ 
> meme space much in America, so it doesn't surprise me that people  
> elsewhere do this stuff better...

And did those of us who are euro-americans lose that gene in the  
atlantic somewhere?!? :-'

I strongly disagree. . . but it's hard to argue with you since you're  
speaking in grand abstractions, and not about concrete things.  Ask  
your jail buddy in Warsawa about abstract space in the Polish  
economy.  Do you think European firms somehow put Enlightenment  
principles above their profit margins?  LOL

>
> /me ponders the devaluation of my own .02?

Well, that will still buy us each a pack of cigarettes in NC.

g


From ike  Tue Dec 20 14:19:01 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:19:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
Message-ID: <225B5EA7-CEA8-40C4-9AA7-2D914E7E0B6B@lesmuug.org>

Yeah,

Sorry for the top-post here-

I do want to shout out with a thanks and an empathetic statement for  
the service providers on this list who had been involved with our  
Verizon traumas-

Pilosoft (Alex) provided solid T1 service for years at this location,  
and we're sad to let go of his service- Alex was hands-on and showed  
up, when Verizon would not...  Next time I see you downtown Alex, I  
owe you a coffee or a beer...

We were getting a redundant line via BWay.net, (and pushing Verizion  
to provision a totally new circut and SmartJack with the install),  
when all went haywire- I believe at the lest, I owe the B'Way crew  
all a beer sometime for the amount of time and fight they put into  
dealing with some very serious Verizon muck.

--
New Question:

Are any of the service providers on this list getting involved with  
the WiMax scene, or is it too early (and expensive) to get involved?

/me dreams of the day when I have WiMax from my Brooklyn rooftop,  
from a provider I can buy a beer for...

Rocket-
.ike








On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:28 PM, Jonathan Vanasco wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 20, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>>> Sounds OK for my current application, a hard-use office LAN,  
>>>> (and Verizon was popping out for 12-48 hrs at a time), so we  
>>>> figured it can't be any worse than that :)
>>> Am I correct in guessing that this Is this the T1 nightmare you
>>> inherited from me?
>>
>> Ayup- indeed it is.  Wish you were here to see the it up man :)
>
> And Bway had the luck of being the last T1 provider (via Covad) to  
> give it a shot.  I heard the short version of the install trauma  
> via my coworker. I don't think there's a problem in relaying this  
> since we all know that no matter what you do, if you run lines to a  
> smallish building, there are no last mile alternatives.  If you're  
> in a high-rise, then you have a few excellent things going for you:
>
> -metro ethernet (which we are pushing hard anywhere that has the  
> service)
> -T1/T3 lines via a CLEC that has fiber in the building
>
> In both cases you can be completely verizon free without worrying  
> about the crowded NYC airwaves.  It's truly a shame that NYC has  
> such an excellent density to sell wireless into, but it also has so  
> much RF pollution that it's hit or miss.
>
> Anyhow from what I gather, this last T1 install involved Verizon  
> not only botching the T1 install for this office, but knocking out  
> multiple T1s that belong to a very important client in the  
> building, and then walking out without fixing it for quite some  
> time.  Not a good way to make friends...
>
> Right now we're starting to work with a salesman turned telco agent  
> for direct VZ T1s.  Back when I worked with him at inch.com, he  
> worked wonders with his secret VZ rolodex.  A botched job could be  
> turned around the same day if you knew the digits to dial to get  
> the right guy on the job.  I'm hoping he still has the magic touch.
>
> In the past, I've seen problems like the one in Ike's customer's  
> building solved by leaning on Verizon hard enough to get fiber and  
> a mux installed in the building.  That usually brings you up to 5  
> 9's reliability.  VZ is reluctant to do this in older/smaller  
> buildings, but I've seen it happen if the building management  
> allows this (no charge for the fiber + mux, but some buildings just  
> don't want to give up a few square feet in the basement).  Usually  
> when you see a "T1 from hell" it's copper from the CO to premise,  
> and given the condition of VZ's copper plant in Manhattan, you're  
> lucky if it works.
>
> Charles
>
>>> Cos yeah, that Verizon trunk was a (*#&$(*&% nightmare, and only  
>>> reliable in the sense that you could count on it it constantly  
>>> going down.  I remember even switching between 3 different  
>>> providers that assured me that they would somehow route it  
>>> through a different service - and then find out it was still the  
>>> same verizon line.  The only difference in service I ever got  
>>> were providers being more 'on the ball' about telling me that the  
>>> verizon part of the line was having issues.
>>> needless to say, it was definately worth paying the extra $100 a  
>>> month from one provider to have them call me and say "we're  
>>> sorry, but there's an issue on the verizon trunk" before I had to  
>>> call them and say "look into this please"
>>
>> 3 cheers for State-controlled monopolies!  Hip Hip Horay!
>>
>> Rocket-
>> .ike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
>> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>>
>




From alex  Tue Dec 20 15:31:27 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:31:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512201528480.3577-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> -metro ethernet (which we are pushing hard anywhere that has the service)
> -T1/T3 lines via a CLEC that has fiber in the building
> 
> In both cases you can be completely verizon free without worrying about
> the crowded NYC airwaves.  It's truly a shame that NYC has such an
> excellent density to sell wireless into, but it also has so much RF
> pollution that it's hit or miss.
Eh, you can't ever be completely verizon-free. The list of buildings where 
CLECs have *their own fiber* is short. At the rest of them, CLECs buy 
UNE-DS3 or similar transport products from verizon. Also, the CLEC fiber 
is in conduits that are owned by Empire City Subway, which is (guess) 
owned 50/50 by NYC and VZ. :)

> Right now we're starting to work with a salesman turned telco agent for
> direct VZ T1s.  Back when I worked with him at inch.com, he worked
> wonders with his secret VZ rolodex.  A botched job could be turned
> around the same day if you knew the digits to dial to get the right guy
> on the job.  I'm hoping he still has the magic touch.
It's hit and miss. I have contacts for vz hicap folks, but you can't get 
your guy to do the specific job...

> In the past, I've seen problems like the one in Ike's customer's
> building solved by leaning on Verizon hard enough to get fiber and a mux
> installed in the building.  That usually brings you up to 5 9's
> reliability.  VZ is reluctant to do this in older/smaller buildings, but
> I've seen it happen if the building management allows this (no charge
> for the fiber + mux, but some buildings just don't want to give up a few
> square feet in the basement).  Usually when you see a "T1 from hell"
> it's copper from the CO to premise, and given the condition of VZ's
> copper plant in Manhattan, you're lucky if it works.
That is true.




From spork  Tue Dec 20 14:41:30 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:41:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512201528480.3577-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512201528480.3577-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201436470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> -metro ethernet (which we are pushing hard anywhere that has the service)
>> -T1/T3 lines via a CLEC that has fiber in the building
>>
>> In both cases you can be completely verizon free without worrying about
>> the crowded NYC airwaves.  It's truly a shame that NYC has such an
>> excellent density to sell wireless into, but it also has so much RF
>> pollution that it's hit or miss.

> Eh, you can't ever be completely verizon-free. The list of buildings where
> CLECs have *their own fiber* is short. At the rest of them, CLECs buy
> UNE-DS3 or similar transport products from verizon. Also, the CLEC fiber
> is in conduits that are owned by Empire City Subway, which is (guess)
> owned 50/50 by NYC and VZ. :)

I still think that if you walk into a high-rise and the mux in the 
basement is owned by some CLEC that you like to work with, you have a 
better chance of getting a timely fix than if you're dealing with Verizon.

Also keep in mind that ConEd does NOT use the Empire City Subway for their 
fiber.  Their list of buildings is short, and they are in turmoil, but now 
that they have a buyer, perhaps they will continue putting equipment in 
all of their buildings.

>> Right now we're starting to work with a salesman turned telco agent for
>> direct VZ T1s.  Back when I worked with him at inch.com, he worked
>> wonders with his secret VZ rolodex.  A botched job could be turned
>> around the same day if you knew the digits to dial to get the right guy
>> on the job.  I'm hoping he still has the magic touch.

> It's hit and miss. I have contacts for vz hicap folks, but you can't get
> your guy to do the specific job...

You can also push hard from the sales end.  There are contacts that can do 
the sales->tech bitching at such a fevered pitch that things get done. 
Like I said, my pal was very good at this when I worked with him.  I don't 
know how many others like him are out there.

>> In the past, I've seen problems like the one in Ike's customer's
>> building solved by leaning on Verizon hard enough to get fiber and a mux
>> installed in the building.  That usually brings you up to 5 9's
>> reliability.  VZ is reluctant to do this in older/smaller buildings, but
>> I've seen it happen if the building management allows this (no charge
>> for the fiber + mux, but some buildings just don't want to give up a few
>> square feet in the basement).  Usually when you see a "T1 from hell"
>> it's copper from the CO to premise, and given the condition of VZ's
>> copper plant in Manhattan, you're lucky if it works.
> That is true.

And the right person can push for a mux in the building.  I've seen it 
done for a single T1.  Verizon, as much as I hate them, seem to love 
pushing new equipment out like that once the right buttons are pushed - I 
suppose they see it as extending their monopoly even further. :)

Charles



From ike  Tue Dec 20 14:43:16 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:43:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <9E398787-FF46-491F-A7F5-6DE42D7CAFF1@sddi.net>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
	<1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>
	<B66821B6-EE15-42CD-AE86-C86E3979C910@sddi.net>
	<9217F86E-8837-4FEF-8745-8785CE7CA1D1@lesmuug.org>
	<9E398787-FF46-491F-A7F5-6DE42D7CAFF1@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <935BC6A3-2C83-4A07-9EFF-5048041D2AB2@lesmuug.org>

ROTFL,

On Dec 20, 2005, at 2:13 PM, George R. wrote:

>> Yep- but the Europeans actually have laws that protect and cover  
>> more abstract personal civil liberties, (things that reduce the  
>> meme-attacks of advertising, for example... in America we don't  
>> even begin to deal with such things [perhaps based on our  
>> religious, absolutist hanging-on to 19th century scientific  
>> idealism])...
>
> speaking of abstract!  Laws don't drop out of the sky, and the  
> intense deregulation of the late 70's and early 80's in the US  
> (airlines, trucking, telecom) concretely killed the innovation of  
> Bell Labs.  Nothing about abstract laws.  I mean, most people in  
> the US make the converse case by pointing to the Bill of Rights in  
> the US. . . how funny, but equally nonsensical.

Well, the Bill of Rights, as defined by the fella's who wrote it, is  
designed to serve our interpertations;

Read:
- Bill of Rights could be applied to let advertisers post mind- 
numbing chatter on the subways
- Bill of Rights could be applied to protect me from dealing with  
mind-numbing chatter of advertisement on the subway
(it's all moot since the subway is offline today)

Another (more relevant?) Read:
- Bill of Rights could be used to protect private or regulated telco  
industries, to let them provide service as they see fit- (it's their  
business, they can provide what they wish)
- Bill of Rights could be used to protect consumers/citizens from  
private or regulated companies manipulating, influencing, or  
otherwise being the gatekeepers for common infrastructure which  
society has come to rely on

That's what I meant by abstract stuff.

>
>>
>> What I'm saying is that we don't respect abstract mental/ 
>> conceptual/meme space much in America, so it doesn't surprise me  
>> that people elsewhere do this stuff better...
>
> And did those of us who are euro-americans lose that gene in the  
> atlantic somewhere?!? :-'

Historically, we perhaps lost it in our quest to escape the  
repressive social and spiritual 'abstracts' which came to apparently  
oppress many of the people who came here...  I'm not arguing that our  
religious scientific faith is necessarily a bad thing, just stating  
that it's where we're at...

So with all of that; Who are the consumers?  Why are we consuming?   
Why are we not filtering the poison they are spooning? (Perhaps  
because it can't be easily quantified?)

>
> I strongly disagree. . . but it's hard to argue with you since  
> you're speaking in grand abstractions, and not about concrete things.

Exactly my point Gman.

> Ask your jail buddy in Warsawa about abstract space in the Polish  
> economy.  Do you think European firms somehow put Enlightenment  
> principles above their profit margins?  LOL

Not what I'm saying- but they do apparently have better mobile  
service and options in Warsawa than NYC.

>> /me ponders the devaluation of my own .02?
>
> Well, that will still buy us each a pack of cigarettes in NC.
>
> g

LOL- it'll buy us each a carton, if the US telcos continue to stifle  
overall business and individual growth, if they continue with  
Trollish, Trollbridge business practices.

It's not until the GDP takes a 'quantifiable' hit that we'll do  
something about this in the US, reinforcing my point.  (Many  
Americans don't stop eating too much McDonalds until they get heart  
disease or something and they have to, so whatever...)

But it's America, I guess I'll hit RadioShack.com and build my own  
darned cellphone, go to HomeDepot.com and build my own personal cell  
towers...

Rocket-
.ike





From alex  Tue Dec 20 15:51:33 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:51:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201436470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512201549310.3577-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> I still think that if you walk into a high-rise and the mux in the
> basement is owned by some CLEC that you like to work with, you have a
> better chance of getting a timely fix than if you're dealing with
> Verizon.
> 
> Also keep in mind that ConEd does NOT use the Empire City Subway for
> their fiber.  Their list of buildings is short, and they are in turmoil,
> but now that they have a buyer, perhaps they will continue putting
> equipment in all of their buildings.
Yes, and yes. :)

> And the right person can push for a mux in the building.  I've seen it
> done for a single T1.  Verizon, as much as I hate them, seem to love
> pushing new equipment out like that once the right buttons are pushed -
> I suppose they see it as extending their monopoly even further. :)
It depends. If there's fiber in the street (in the vault), it may be a
single T1. (but I doubt it - your sales people must have lots of push). If
there needs to be any kind of street digging involved, we talking lots of
T's. At a place in NJ, a friend managed to get VZ to run about 1000ft of
fiber by ordering 15 T1s...




From thareja.lists  Tue Dec 20 15:03:16 2005
From: thareja.lists (Sachin Thareja)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:03:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
Message-ID: <9bdd47ef0512201203w17564702qbeb9b84f4043d128@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Am I correct in guessing that this Is this the T1 nightmare you
> inherited from me?
>
> Cos yeah, that Verizon trunk was a (*#&$(*&% nightmare, and only
> reliable in the sense that you could count on it it constantly going
> down.  I remember even switching between 3 different providers that
> assured me that they would somehow route it through a different
> service - and then find out it was still the same verizon line.  The
> only difference in service I ever got were providers being more 'on
> the ball' about telling me that the verizon part of the line was
> having issues.
>
> needless to say, it was definately worth paying the extra $100 a
> month from one provider to have them call me and say "we're sorry,
> but there's an issue on the verizon trunk" before I had to call them
> and say "look into this please"



Thanks, list, for all the good info, this was quite a learning experience. I
am currently using a Speakeasy T1 for VOIP, and am seeing a recent spike in
issues... I've seen over 4 minutes of total downtime already today. The SLA
allows for 99.99% uptime a month, the current situation is close to
violating it. Seeing that if they cannot resolve soon, we will have to go
with someone else... any recommendations for a T1 provider for the sole
purpose of VOIP would be very welcome.

Thanks, and I apologize if I shouldnt be asking about specific providers etc
on the list...
Sachin

_______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
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From mspitzer  Tue Dec 20 15:44:08 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:44:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <935BC6A3-2C83-4A07-9EFF-5048041D2AB2@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<20051220124742.7fb75c10@wit.genoverly.home>
	<1ADBC980-7C91-4E4B-B02D-B602416E159C@lesmuug.org>
	<B66821B6-EE15-42CD-AE86-C86E3979C910@sddi.net>
	<9217F86E-8837-4FEF-8745-8785CE7CA1D1@lesmuug.org>
	<9E398787-FF46-491F-A7F5-6DE42D7CAFF1@sddi.net>
	<935BC6A3-2C83-4A07-9EFF-5048041D2AB2@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30512201244l6559b4acpb7f0bc643ebb81f9@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/20/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> ROTFL,
>
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 2:13 PM, George R. wrote:
>
> >> Yep- but the Europeans actually have laws that protect and cover
> >> more abstract personal civil liberties, (things that reduce the
> >> meme-attacks of advertising, for example... in America we don't
> >> even begin to deal with such things [perhaps based on our
> >> religious, absolutist hanging-on to 19th century scientific
> >> idealism])...
> >
> > speaking of abstract!  Laws don't drop out of the sky, and the
> > intense deregulation of the late 70's and early 80's in the US
> > (airlines, trucking, telecom) concretely killed the innovation of
> > Bell Labs.  Nothing about abstract laws.  I mean, most people in
> > the US make the converse case by pointing to the Bill of Rights in
> > the US. . . how funny, but equally nonsensical.
>
> Well, the Bill of Rights, as defined by the fella's who wrote it, is
> designed to serve our interpertations;
>
> Read:
> - Bill of Rights could be applied to let advertisers post mind-
> numbing chatter on the subways
> - Bill of Rights could be applied to protect me from dealing with
> mind-numbing chatter of advertisement on the subway
> (it's all moot since the subway is offline today)
>
> Another (more relevant?) Read:
> - Bill of Rights could be used to protect private or regulated telco
> industries, to let them provide service as they see fit- (it's their
> business, they can provide what they wish)
> - Bill of Rights could be used to protect consumers/citizens from
> private or regulated companies manipulating, influencing, or
> otherwise being the gatekeepers for common infrastructure which
> society has come to rely on

umm what are you talking about?  I do not see how the constitution
applies in either case.  In the first example you would have to really
bend out of shape the constitution to apply it in either case.  There
is no law against you being bothered in public.  There are laws
against you being assaulted though, and brain washing via advertising
would count as assault

Now to the best of my knowledge the only monopoly power granted in the
constitution is for patents and copy rights.  Now with that said it is
perfectly ok to go to a government agency and say that in exchange for
exclusive rights for a period of time I will spend lots of money to 
provision a service that people want, phone or cable come to mind. 
The government does not have to approve and if the citizens are really
pissed over the decision off they can vote them out of office.

>
> That's what I meant by abstract stuff.

There is a thing called context.  If you remove all context from an
argument it means nothing.  The US constitution has context, which is
why speech is protected but yelling fire in a crowded theater is not,
if there is no fire.  It is also why specific forms of lieing are
protected, satire comes to mind.  Even though they are provably false
and potentially damaging, personally and/or professionally.

marc



From nycbug-list  Tue Dec 20 16:00:22 2005
From: nycbug-list (Jonathan Vanasco)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:00:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <9bdd47ef0512201203w17564702qbeb9b84f4043d128@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<9bdd47ef0512201203w17564702qbeb9b84f4043d128@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66151C80-7C43-4F3A-AC27-30C5016D8E61@2xlp.com>

My advice to your speakeasy issue, is to find out exactly who is to  
blame.

it could very well be a Verizon problem and you'll run into the issue  
that plagued me , ike , Alex at pilosoft and everyone else who worked on  
that connection that started this thread.

If it is an issue on the verizon trunk, then no matter who you use  
for T1/DSL/etc , you're going to run into the same issue unless you  
can find a magical non-verizon line to run on.

to note: i don't use speakeasy, but everyone i know who has loved it  
and had no issues.  so see the comment above.

Now, i don't want to say "I told you so..." but:
	alex, ike - from day 1, I said "its not the router, its not  
pilosoft, its not ___, its verizon" and they all said "let's just be  
safe" and i'd be all "are you fffing kidding me?!? its so obviously a  
problem on the trunk" (gotta applaud alex again for going out of his  
way to make damn sure it was a verizon issue and not his when i  
handled that network)
anyways, i lied.  i do wan to say it:
	i told you so




On Dec 20, 2005, at 3:03 PM, Sachin Thareja wrote:

> Am I correct in guessing that this Is this the T1 nightmare you
> inherited from me?
>
> Cos yeah, that Verizon trunk was a (*#&$(*&% nightmare, and only
> reliable in the sense that you could count on it it constantly going
> down.  I remember even switching between 3 different providers that
> assured me that they would somehow route it through a different
> service - and then find out it was still the same verizon line.  The
> only difference in service I ever got were providers being more 'on
> the ball' about telling me that the verizon part of the line was
> having issues.
>
> needless to say, it was definately worth paying the extra $100 a
> month from one provider to have them call me and say "we're sorry,
> but there's an issue on the verizon trunk" before I had to call them
> and say "look into this please"
>
>
> Thanks, list, for all the good info, this was quite a learning  
> experience. I am currently using a Speakeasy T1 for VOIP, and am  
> seeing a recent spike in issues... I've seen over 4 minutes of  
> total downtime already today. The SLA allows for 99.99% uptime a  
> month, the current situation is close to violating it. Seeing that  
> if they cannot resolve soon, we will have to go with someone  
> else... any recommendations for a T1 provider for the sole purpose  
> of VOIP would be very welcome.
>
> Thanks, and I apologize if I shouldnt be asking about specific  
> providers etc on the list...
> Sachin
>
>



From thareja.lists  Tue Dec 20 16:37:56 2005
From: thareja.lists (Sachin Thareja)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:37:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <66151C80-7C43-4F3A-AC27-30C5016D8E61@2xlp.com>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<9bdd47ef0512201203w17564702qbeb9b84f4043d128@mail.gmail.com>
	<66151C80-7C43-4F3A-AC27-30C5016D8E61@2xlp.com>
Message-ID: <9bdd47ef0512201337i766af59aga7998e6c83e2a19f@mail.gmail.com>

>
> My advice to your speakeasy issue, is to find out exactly who is to
> blame.
>
> it could very well be a Verizon problem and you'll run into the issue
> that plagued me , ike , Alex at pilosoft and everyone else who worked on
> that connection that started this thread.
>
> If it is an issue on the verizon trunk, then no matter who you use
> for T1/DSL/etc , you're going to run into the same issue unless you
> can find a magical non-verizon line to run on.
>
> to note: i don't use speakeasy, but everyone i know who has loved it
> and had no issues.  so see the comment above.



Thanks for the advice: its a relief that that speakeasy is a generally
favored provider. I hope they can diagnose and (dare I say it) "work with
Verizon" to nurse this T1 back to health. I guess I should also let them
know that an SDSL line (another provider) to the same closet has been
performing well, which may help decide if there's a problem with the trunk
(I'm guessing that the copper from the building leads to the same trunk at
some point)...

Sachin
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From ike  Tue Dec 20 17:32:07 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:32:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201145560.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <BFCCD9EF.3DD97%jfreeman@nybg.org>
	<293F73CD-823E-472F-AB41-6B923DB1A23A@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201145560.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20FF91B6-9D03-4263-AB1F-6D8D52E05F54@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

On Dec 20, 2005, at 11:49 AM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Josh: are there any tests you'd like me to run for you to show  
>> this?  So far, the overall speed is definitely much faster than  
>> the T1 this is replacing.
>
> What's the round trip time to the far end router?

Been trying with traceroutes, but ICMP packets seems to be dropping  
out, can't currently get outside of my border router....

Any other suggestions for finding this out?

>
>> For anyone:  I'll totally run any network tests people can email  
>> me with, just email me with instructions in this thread- (I'm  
>> hoping to learn some new tools for network performance monitoring  
>> while I'm at this? :)
>
> This tool is good to look at latency, loss and jitter all at once.
>
> Wireless usually looks all over the map with it:
>
> http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~oetiker/webtools/smokeping/
>
> It's very nice for helping decide whether you want to run VoIP or  
> any other jitter/loss sensitive service.

That's precisely the tool I was looking for- Thanks Charles!

Rocket-
.ike





From jbaltz  Tue Dec 20 21:16:58 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:16:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Verizon Woes got you down?
In-Reply-To: <225B5EA7-CEA8-40C4-9AA7-2D914E7E0B6B@lesmuug.org>
References: <E5490290-B852-41C9-BB81-D144245694F6@lesmuug.org>
	<b76252690512191511xb948d6cna20ab13aa4229abc@mail.gmail.com>
	<54871F7F-D101-4F87-8169-2DAE30CD6CAF@lesmuug.org>
	<845658DF-5EDC-4CFF-86CF-CD13E8EF3BC3@2xlp.com>
	<593CD6CF-5A01-45CE-82D6-9E1CB3C22C13@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512201246470.282@office-dhcp-18.bway.net>
	<225B5EA7-CEA8-40C4-9AA7-2D914E7E0B6B@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <43A8BB1A.1040700@3phasecomputing.com>

Apropos only this:

On 12/20/2005 2:19 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Pilosoft (Alex) provided solid T1 service for years at this location,  
> and we're sad to let go of his service- Alex was hands-on and showed  
> up, when Verizon would not...  Next time I see you downtown Alex, I  owe 
> you a coffee or a beer...

In case anyone wants to pipe up otherwise: don't.
Alex/Pilosoft has been a great resource and a fantastic (and patient) 
person to work with, and I recommend him to my clients.

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From lists  Tue Dec 20 22:45:35 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:45:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Restarting ipfw remotely
Message-ID: <cone.1135136735.362039.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

is there any other/better way to restart ipfw other than 
"sh /etc/rc.firewall"?

Specially after changing a number of lines in the file and wanting to put 
them in production.

The machine is not in production yet so no worries if I lock myself out for 
a bit. :-)



From lists  Tue Dec 20 22:47:13 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:47:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Restarting ipfw remotely
Message-ID: <cone.1135136833.816647.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Is there any other/better way to restart ipfw other than
"sh /etc/rc.firewall"?

Specially after changing a number of lines in the file and wanting to put
them in production.

The machine is not in production yet so no worries if I lock myself out for
a bit. :-)



From g  Wed Dec 21 13:52:55 2005
From: g (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:52:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <43985771.7030104@chrisbuechler.com>
Message-ID: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Ike & Chris,

Were you able to get closer to identifying a cause for the problem with
using the 3Ware Escalade 9500S RAID cards with SMP enabled in FBSD 6?  Is it
possible that some other device used in all the affected machines is the
"lynch pin" that causes the instability when combined with the 3Ware card
and SMP?

Cheers,
Gordon

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org]
On Behalf Of Chris Buechler
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:55 AM
To: NYC Bug List
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA

Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> I've got 2 brand-spankin' new RAID cards I'd like to ditch, they're 
>> not that smooth to use with FreeBSD (but reported rock-solid for 
>> OpenBSD use):
>>
>> '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
>> http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp
>
>
> Ike,
>
> Just curious what issues you have with these.  I have a 8506-4LP in a 
> 6.0 box I'm testing, and it's been stable.  Also have one in a 
> production 4.11 box and have been very happy with it.  Not a speed 
> demon though on the 6.0 box, and it's still under "giant".



I must say, I'm curious as well.  Curious if it's the same issue I've 
been seeing for about 2 years.  I've used a variety of 3Ware cards in 
FreeBSD boxes, 4.x through 6.x, and they've been solid except for one 
thing.  Enable SMP and everything goes all to hell real fast.  Ranging 
from a dual P3 500 MHz to a dual Xeon 3+ GHz, with several different 
3Ware cards, the symptoms vary from instability (kernel panics ranging 
in frequency, typically a couple times a week at least), to complete 
inability to boot, and a few things in between.  Disabling SMP in the 
kernel, or physically taking out the second proc, always has completely 
resolved the problems.  The hardware is rock solid in every case, 
without SMP on the same boxes with 3Ware cards, or with SMP and without 
the 3Ware cards, I've had 1+ year uptimes. 

haven't had time to look into it any closer than that. 

-Chris
_______________________________________________
% NYC*BUG talk mailing list
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
%Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
%We meet the first Wednesday of the month




From trish  Wed Dec 21 18:18:55 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:18:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Restarting ipfw remotely
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135136735.362039.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cone.1135136735.362039.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051221181732.F795@daemon.bsdunix.net>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> is there any other/better way to restart ipfw other than "sh 
> /etc/rc.firewall"?
>
> Specially after changing a number of lines in the file and wanting to put 
> them in production.
>
> The machine is not in production yet so no worries if I lock myself out for a 
> bit. :-)

What I've taken to doing is having ipfw default to accept in the kernel, 
then having as my last line the deny all rule (65534), so it would be next 
to impossible to lock myself out if I reload or flush it.

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From lists  Wed Dec 21 22:48:14 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:48:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Restarting ipfw remotely
References: <cone.1135136735.362039.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051221181732.F795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1135223294.4308.18804.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Trish Lynch writes:

> What I've taken to doing is having ipfw default to accept in the kernel, 
> then having as my last line the deny all rule (65534), so it would be next 
> to impossible to lock myself out if I reload or flush it.

I like that idea.

While on the IPFW subject.. since when it became possile to run IPFW without 
modifying the kernel? A new co-worker just showed me a few days ago how one 
can just enable it in /rc.conf and just do "ipfw start".. is that a loadable 
module?

Is performance still better from the kernel? 



From trish  Thu Dec 22 08:51:35 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:51:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Restarting ipfw remotely
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135223294.4308.18804.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cone.1135136735.362039.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051221181732.F795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<cone.1135223294.4308.18804.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051222084856.C795@daemon.bsdunix.net>

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Trish Lynch writes:
>
>> What I've taken to doing is having ipfw default to accept in the kernel, 
>> then having as my last line the deny all rule (65534), so it would be next 
>> to impossible to lock myself out if I reload or flush it.
>
> I like that idea.
>
> While on the IPFW subject.. since when it became possile to run IPFW without 
> modifying the kernel? A new co-worker just showed me a few days ago how one 
> can just enable it in /rc.conf and just do "ipfw start".. is that a loadable 
> module?
>
> Is performance still better from the kernel?

Yes, its a loadable module, it has been since 3.x as far as I know.... it 
just wasn;t loadable in rc.conf until 4.x....

As with any loadable module, I would expect some sort of small performance 
hit, probably not one to be able to notice though.


-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From lists  Thu Dec 22 10:11:50 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:11:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Restarting ipfw remotely
References: <cone.1135136735.362039.6039.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051221181732.F795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<cone.1135223294.4308.18804.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051222084856.C795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1135264310.383475.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Trish Lynch writes:

> As with any loadable module, I would expect some sort of small performance 
> hit, probably not one to be able to notice though.


Great.
I will add it to the machines on the kernel next time I re-do the kernel..
Gret to know one can get it up and going before doing the kernel...



From lists  Thu Dec 22 10:14:37 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:14:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
Message-ID: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Had never had the need for wireless..
Getting a new laptop and was wondering how safe it is to use a wireless WEP 
connection with SSH.

I figure I would not put too much trust on the WEP part, but figure ssh will 
be the same regardless of whether it's wired/wireless.. just perhaps easier 
for someone to see the packets passing by..

Any horror stories?

As convenient as it may be if there is any risk.. I would just stay wired...



From dan  Thu Dec 22 10:36:53 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:36:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <43AA81C5.17526.13D70F03@dan.langille.org>

On 22 Dec 2005 at 10:14, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Had never had the need for wireless..
> Getting a new laptop and was wondering how safe it is to use a wireless WEP 
> connection with SSH.
> 
> I figure I would not put too much trust on the WEP part, but figure ssh will 
> be the same regardless of whether it's wired/wireless.. just perhaps easier 
> for someone to see the packets passing by..
> 
> Any horror stories?
> 
> As convenient as it may be if there is any risk.. I would just stay wired...

If all you do is ssh from your laptop, they can't sniff that any 
easier than if it was on the wire.

If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection, 
that's a different issue.  I achieve both security and control 
through IPsec.  http://www.freebsddiary.org/ipsec.php

My laptop, whether running Windows XP Pro or FreeBSD, uses IPsec.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From ike  Thu Dec 22 16:14:59 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:14:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <65B20AC8-C77E-4CF4-B3EF-E42E800D24F9@lesmuug.org>

Hi Francicso,

Good question,

On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:14 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Had never had the need for wireless..
> Getting a new laptop and was wondering how safe it is to use a  
> wireless WEP connection with SSH.

The setup you describe is a real winner, IMHO.  Based on how I do  
things (small scale), environments I work in rarely stand still long  
enough for me to get into setting up VPN's, (ipsec, etc...), though  
those are great tools as well.

SSH itself, over wireless, is a very secure way of working, and ssh  
tunnels are fantastic, mostly because they are quick, and possible to/ 
from just about any system running OpenSSH.

I would also add one more thing to your toolkit: a nice remote proxy,  
on a server with a 'trusted' wired connection to the net (tinyproxy  
is very nice).  Using a combination of SSH tunnels, to a proxy  
server, one can effectively proxy all traffic through the ssh tunnel,  
out to the remote server.  IT'S IMPORTANT to configure the proxy  
server to listen only to localhost, else anyone can proxy traffic  
through your server- (and do possibly fraudulent things from your IP!)

This is very similar to a VPN, except it's much faster to setup and  
discard, (to me, at least...).  Something like:


LAPTOP     (untrusted/wireless www? lan?)  SERVER
  http---> \                               / -> \
  smtp--->  >========[ssh-tunnel]=========<  ->  >127.0.0.1(proxy- 
server)
  etc----> /                               \ -> /                |
                                                                 |
                                            ('trusted' network  
connection)
                                                                 |
                                                                 |
                                                               (WWW)
                                                               / | \
                                                              / /|\ \
                                                           http smtp etc


I hope the ascii diagram makes it simpler, not confuses things.

>
> I figure I would not put too much trust on the WEP part, but figure  
> ssh will be the same regardless of whether it's wired/wireless..  
> just perhaps easier for someone to see the packets passing by..
>
> Any horror stories?

Heck yeah!  I think of it as 2 'clsses' of risk using WiFi:

1) Protecting traffic through your Local AP

2) Protecting your traffic when using a public AP (Cafe's, etc...)

--
1) With one's local AP, the ugliest thing I've seen, (at several  
different locations) is to have some neighboring PC crack accesss to  
the AP, and snif/snarf or otherwise do nasty things with the traffic  
across that wire.  This doesn't mean your upstairs neighbor is  
necessarily cracking your line, but their machine could be  
compromised by some kiddie in the Eastern Block, or S. Korea, or some  
University dorm...  (I've seen all 3 of these scenarios).

So, the common mistakes I've seen, is that people trust their own AP,  
when it can be compromised via:

- cracked WEP keys (trivial, though relatively time-consuming [read:  
kismet])

- cracked WPA keys (less trivial, very time consuming [read: kismet  
again])

- spoofed MAC addresses for MAC based AP access: (trivial,  
netStumbler and knowledge of how to configure MAC address of a given  
OS/Nic)

With that, beyond real-time sniffing/snarfing, wireless traffic can  
be trivially dumped to file, and a cracker can take all the cpu time  
they want to crack WPA/WEP traffic.

SSH (or a VPN) can be used in protecting your traffic in all these  
cases, quite nicely- but to protect your AP from resource-based  
attacks, (some jerk soaking/using your line to do nasty things), I  
find it simplest to just change keys regularly, since it takes a  
relatively long amount of time to work out cracking them.  Also,  
keeping an eye on your network using Arpwatch, or a packet sniffer,  
can possibly save you a headache.

--
2) Cafe' internet access can often be *very* dirty wires.  Not only  
can somebody in Russia sniff packets and cause MITM chaos, it's way  
more likely, insomuch as Cafe' AP's are manned by employees focused  
on serving Coffee/Food, not securing the AP.
With that, in NYC more and more, I see people clog the entire cafe  
connection with limewire, or gaming traffic- making it totally  
useless to even check email, and making remote ssh shells so  
unresponsive they're almost useless.

With that, I highly reccommend grabbing a copy of ettercap, and  
reading the man pages on how to use it.  An ike-quickstart to  
ettercap-ng is to install it (ports makes it much easier, believe  
me...), and try the Curses interface like so:

ettercap -C -i en1

You can sniff traffic passively, or by performing ARP or IP based  
MITM- easily find network abusers, and cleanly kill connections that  
are hogging the wires.  Kindof sucks to have to work to get a decent  
connnection, but I've found it's often necessary to get anything  
bloody done at public Wireless Hotspots...

Remember though, with such great power, comes great responsibility-  
(read: don't be a jerk with that samurai sword).


>
> As convenient as it may be if there is any risk.. I would just stay  
> wired...

Basically, it's a more or less the same as any physical wire, it's  
insane to trust any important packets to any unencrypted line.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Thu Dec 22 16:16:50 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:16:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <43AA81C5.17526.13D70F03@dan.langille.org>
References: <43AA81C5.17526.13D70F03@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <3B2CAEB4-AF14-4DEC-BF99-C314DAA6A60B@lesmuug.org>

Dan, All,

On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Dan Langille wrote:

>> As convenient as it may be if there is any risk.. I would just  
>> stay wired...
>
> If all you do is ssh from your laptop, they can't sniff that any
> easier than if it was on the wire.
>
> If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection,
> that's a different issue.  I achieve both security and control
> through IPsec.  http://www.freebsddiary.org/ipsec.php
>
> My laptop, whether running Windows XP Pro or FreeBSD, uses IPsec.
> -- 

Thanks for posting this article!  It kindof makes my last email's  
whining about VPN setup moot...

Gonna give this a shot...

Rocket-
.ike





From dan  Thu Dec 22 16:24:55 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:24:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <3B2CAEB4-AF14-4DEC-BF99-C314DAA6A60B@lesmuug.org>
References: <43AA81C5.17526.13D70F03@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <43AAD357.7366.1515B00B@dan.langille.org>

On 22 Dec 2005 at 16:16, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Dan, All,
> 
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:36 AM, Dan Langille wrote:
> 
> >> As convenient as it may be if there is any risk.. I would just  
> >> stay wired...
> >
> > If all you do is ssh from your laptop, they can't sniff that any
> > easier than if it was on the wire.
> >
> > If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection,
> > that's a different issue.  I achieve both security and control
> > through IPsec.  http://www.freebsddiary.org/ipsec.php
> >
> > My laptop, whether running Windows XP Pro or FreeBSD, uses IPsec.
> > -- 
> 
> Thanks for posting this article!  It kindof makes my last email's  
> whining about VPN setup moot...
> 
> Gonna give this a shot...

Missing from there, but documented and waiting to go, is the 
corresponding setup on the Windows client.  Complete with about 25 
screen shots.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From lists  Thu Dec 22 17:17:22 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:17:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
References: <43AA81C5.17526.13D70F03@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>

Dan Langille writes:

> If all you do is ssh from your laptop, they can't sniff that any 
> easier than if it was on the wire.

That's what I figured, but thanks for the re-assurance.


> If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection, 
> that's a different issue.

I think, from what I read, that WEP will stop the casual hackers... and 
hopefully I will be able to do something better soon.. like the article you 
reference below.  

>  I achieve both security and control 
> through IPsec.  http://www.freebsddiary.org/ipsec.php

> My laptop, whether running Windows XP Pro or FreeBSD, uses IPsec.

Thanks for the Link.. printed to read on the way home.
Where did you find instructions for the windows part?
I plan to partition the 80GB drive in the laptop as 10GB Windows XP, 70GB 
FreeBSD... or something simmilar.



From ike  Thu Dec 22 17:31:18 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:31:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>

Hi Gordon,

On Dec 21, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> Ike & Chris,
>
> Were you able to get closer to identifying a cause for the problem  
> with
> using the 3Ware Escalade 9500S RAID cards with SMP enabled in FBSD  
> 6?  Is it
> possible that some other device used in all the affected machines  
> is the
> "lynch pin" that causes the instability when combined with the  
> 3Ware card
> and SMP?

I have 2 of these cards still, and have been mucking about just  
trying to get *any* kind of install to happen using them with FreeBSD  
(their specs are *soooo* much nicer than my Adaptec cards, at the  
same price...)

With that, I'm willing to start hacking through this problem- I'll be  
working with the cards either tomorrow, or Saturday- (depending on  
the Strike, and a few other variables)...

Gordon- Do you have one of these cards too?  I'm wanting to start  
pooling notes on this or something...
I'll try to jump on irc.freenode.net #nycbug when I'm working- my  
nick is dot_ike.

Rocket-
.ike




>
> Cheers,
> Gordon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org [mailto:talk- 
> bounces at lists.nycbug.org]
> On Behalf Of Chris Buechler
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:55 AM
> To: NYC Bug List
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
>
> Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>>> Hey All,
>>>
>>> I've got 2 brand-spankin' new RAID cards I'd like to ditch, they're
>>> not that smooth to use with FreeBSD (but reported rock-solid for
>>> OpenBSD use):
>>>
>>> '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
>>> http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp
>>
>>
>> Ike,
>>
>> Just curious what issues you have with these.  I have a 8506-4LP in a
>> 6.0 box I'm testing, and it's been stable.  Also have one in a
>> production 4.11 box and have been very happy with it.  Not a speed
>> demon though on the 6.0 box, and it's still under "giant".
>
>
>
> I must say, I'm curious as well.  Curious if it's the same issue I've
> been seeing for about 2 years.  I've used a variety of 3Ware cards in
> FreeBSD boxes, 4.x through 6.x, and they've been solid except for one
> thing.  Enable SMP and everything goes all to hell real fast.  Ranging
> from a dual P3 500 MHz to a dual Xeon 3+ GHz, with several different
> 3Ware cards, the symptoms vary from instability (kernel panics ranging
> in frequency, typically a couple times a week at least), to complete
> inability to boot, and a few things in between.  Disabling SMP in the
> kernel, or physically taking out the second proc, always has  
> completely
> resolved the problems.  The hardware is rock solid in every case,
> without SMP on the same boxes with 3Ware cards, or with SMP and  
> without
> the 3Ware cards, I've had 1+ year uptimes.
>
> haven't had time to look into it any closer than that.
>
> -Chris
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>




From dan  Thu Dec 22 18:41:01 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:41:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
Message-ID: <43AAF33D.16544.15924B27@dan.langille.org>

On 22 Dec 2005 at 17:17, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Where did you find instructions for the windows part? I plan to
> partition the 80GB drive in the laptop as 10GB Windows XP, 70GB
> FreeBSD... or something simmilar. 

OK, you've shamed me into to finally publishing it:

  http://www.freebsddiary.org/ipsec-wireless-xp.php

FWIW, I have my laptop triple booting with XP, 4.11, and 6.  I blam 
to remove 4.11 and 6 and reinstall 6 from scratch.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From benjamin.gross  Fri Dec 23 09:01:30 2005
From: benjamin.gross (Benjamin Gross)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:01:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
References: <43AA81C5.17526.13D70F03@dan.langille.org>
	<cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
Message-ID: <217879570512230601h193ed38bvdfcab121dac60a11@mail.gmail.com>

> > If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection,
> > that's a different issue.
>
> I think, from what I read, that WEP will stop the casual hackers... and
> hopefully I will be able to do something better soon.. like the article you
> reference below.
>

Most access points will allow you to setup filters on the MAC.



From lists  Fri Dec 23 09:05:54 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:05:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
Message-ID: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>

If you haven't seen it:
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/12/21/netbsd_cgd.html

He has been a repeat speaker at NYCBUG meetings.

-- 

Michael





From dan  Fri Dec 23 11:06:05 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:06:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <217879570512230601h193ed38bvdfcab121dac60a11@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
Message-ID: <43ABDA1D.13751.1918205A@dan.langille.org>

On 23 Dec 2005 at 9:01, Benjamin Gross wrote:

> > > If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection,
> > > that's a different issue.
> >
> > I think, from what I read, that WEP will stop the casual hackers... and
> > hopefully I will be able to do something better soon.. like the article you
> > reference below.
> >
> 
> Most access points will allow you to setup filters on the MAC.

Many OS's allow you to change your MAC.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From nycbug  Fri Dec 23 11:18:51 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:18:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
In-Reply-To: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>
References: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>
Message-ID: <20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>

On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:05:54AM -0500, michael wrote:
> If you haven't seen it:
> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/12/21/netbsd_cgd.html
> 
> He has been a repeat speaker at NYCBUG meetings.

I've always wondered how gracefully encrypted disks handled crashes.
Does anyone have any experience?  I've used the encrypted disk image
for qemu before, but a crash rendered the whole image useless.

-Ray-



From george  Fri Dec 23 11:33:15 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:33:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
In-Reply-To: <20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>
	<20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <43AC26CB.7070600@sddi.net>

Ray Lai wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:05:54AM -0500, michael wrote:
> 
>>If you haven't seen it:
>>http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/12/21/netbsd_cgd.html
>>
>>He has been a repeat speaker at NYCBUG meetings.
> 
> 
> I've always wondered how gracefully encrypted disks handled crashes.
> Does anyone have any experience?  I've used the encrypted disk image
> for qemu before, but a crash ren

Excellent point Ray. . .  encryption, particularly disk level (which CGD 
is not), may raise some issues of data integrity in the event of crashes.

Roland, why don't you speak to this, even though CGD is file-based, right?

g



From jlam  Fri Dec 23 12:01:10 2005
From: jlam (Johnny Lam)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:01:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
In-Reply-To: <43AC26CB.7070600@sddi.net>
References: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>	<20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
	<43AC26CB.7070600@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <43AC2D56.6050302@pkgsrc.org>

George R. wrote:
> Ray Lai wrote:
>>
>> I've always wondered how gracefully encrypted disks handled crashes.
>> Does anyone have any experience?  I've used the encrypted disk image
>> for qemu before, but a crash ren
> 
> 
> Excellent point Ray. . .  encryption, particularly disk level (which CGD 
> is not), may raise some issues of data integrity in the event of crashes.
> 
> Roland, why don't you speak to this, even though CGD is file-based, right?

No, CGD is not file-based -- it works at the block-level.  It provides a 
pseudo-disk that can be partitioned, disklabeled, and newfs'ed like any 
other disk.  I consider this a strength since it foils meta-data 
attacks, e.g. looking at directory structures to glean information about 
the likely contents of files.  IIRC, because CGD works block-by-block 
and because of the "write atomicity" that Roland talks about in the 
interview, losing power when using CGDs is no different than losing 
power with normal disks -- you just lose whatever has failed to write to 
the disk, but it doesn't affect the existing data on the CGD pseudo-disk.

Incidentally, I use the 2-factor authentication scheme that Roland talks 
about in the paper.  It works like a charm with CGD on my laptop to 
protect sensitive data.

	Cheers,

	-- Johnny Lam <jlam at pkgsrc.org>



From ike  Fri Dec 23 12:30:51 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:30:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
In-Reply-To: <43AC2D56.6050302@pkgsrc.org>
References: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>	<20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
	<43AC26CB.7070600@sddi.net> <43AC2D56.6050302@pkgsrc.org>
Message-ID: <B35CDDDA-708C-480A-A114-0D627E0991D4@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Johnny Lam wrote:

>> even though CGD is file-based, right?
>
> No, CGD is not file-based -- it works at the block-level.

Indeed, CGD is block-level crypto, you must have been thinking of the  
FreeBSD crypto scheme, based on GEOM,

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/disks- 
encrypting.html

Rocket-
.ike





From trish  Fri Dec 23 12:48:21 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:48:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <43ABDA1D.13751.1918205A@dan.langille.org>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<43ABDA1D.13751.1918205A@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 23 Dec 2005 at 9:01, Benjamin Gross wrote:
>
>>>> If you want to stop others from using your wireless connection,
>>>> that's a different issue.
>>>
>>> I think, from what I read, that WEP will stop the casual hackers... and
>>> hopefully I will be able to do something better soon.. like the article you
>>> reference below.
>>>
>>
>> Most access points will allow you to setup filters on the MAC.
>
> Many OS's allow you to change your MAC.
> --

Yes, but you still have to guess valid macs, right? guess thats firly 
easy while sniffing.

seriously its just another minor layer, but it won't help keep someone 
from sniffing the wireless.

Why use WEP? use WPA, it addresses the issues with WEP.

-Trish



-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From ike  Fri Dec 23 12:59:36 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:59:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<43ABDA1D.13751.1918205A@dan.langille.org>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:48 PM, Trish Lynch wrote:

>>> Most access points will allow you to setup filters on the MAC.
>>
>> Many OS's allow you to change your MAC.
>> --
>
> Yes, but you still have to guess valid macs, right? guess thats  
> firly easy while sniffing.
>
> seriously its just another minor layer, but it won't help keep  
> someone from sniffing the wireless.
>
> Why use WEP? use WPA, it addresses the issues with WEP.

WPA is definately nicer than WEP, but it's still crackable (and in  
some instances, requires less wireless packet capture to perform a  
successful crack than WEP even):

http://wifinetnews.com/archives/004428.html

"Both the WPA and 802.11i documentation recommend a minimum 20- 
character password. Unfortunately, this small tip is buried in a lot  
of highly technical information, and therefore unavailable to the  
typical SOHO user."
http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=370636&rl=1

--
If it's something you care about, change passphrases often- it's  
quite effective dealing with WEP/WPA crack threats, as they both  
simply take time to actually crack the keys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

Rocket-
.ike





From g  Fri Dec 23 14:30:27 2005
From: g (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:30:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <0IRY00IIAU6S24S9@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

> With that, I'm willing to start hacking through this problem- I'll be  
> working with the cards either tomorrow, or Saturday- (depending on  
> the Strike, and a few other variables)...
> 
> Gordon- Do you have one of these cards too?  I'm wanting to start  
> pooling notes on this or something...

We haven't bought any hardware (RAID controllers included) for 
FreeBSD implementation yet.  We're planning to buy a few server 
machines (probably 2-3 at the moment) that will be ready to go 
for FreeBSD with RAID 1+0.  We were considering installing 
FreeBSD 6.0 on the new machines, so long as the resulting 
configurations proved stable; we may have to go with 5.4 for 
the moment until we can identify a RAID 1+0 card that works 
reliably under 6.0.  

I appreciate your willingness to work through this issue.  
Whatever info you can collect would be helpful...

When we buy and install the machines, if there are "standard" 
Controller performance benchmarks that I can run, I'll be happy 
to post the test results.

Cheers,
Gordon




From spork  Fri Dec 23 16:41:03 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:41:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] multiport serial cards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510120305580.2731@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510120305580.2731@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512231634140.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>

Top-posting to myself, so sue me... :p

I realized that I never shared the cost-effective device that I settled on 
for this.  In the past, I remember contacting Paul Vixie directly since 
he was a BSDi (now FreeBSD) diehard and he'd written some open source 
terminal server software.  He was very helpful, so I decided to hit him up 
again...

He said that ISC is using these devices and they have been working well:

http://www.usbgear.com/computer_cable_details.cfm?sku=USB-16COM-RM&cats=199&catid=493%2C494%2C474%2C199%2C461%2C106%2C1009%2C601

$500 for 16 ports.  It's basically a box with a bunch of USB->serial 
adapters and a hub.  In FreeBSD 5/6 it's totally plug-n-play.  In 4 it may 
or may not be depending on the chipset.  Mine required a manual backport 
of some driver code from 6, but it was very simple for a non-coder like me 
and I have the info saved.

So hats off to Vixie, this was exactly what I needed.  Combined with 
conserver.com, I've got a really nice console server that's secure, logs 
all console output from all the servers, and has been very reliable.  This 
box takes standard DB9/DB9 null modem cables that can be had for about $2.

I'd also recommend looking at the entire USBGear serial line, there's some 
really cool stuff there if you need more than 2 serial ports:

http://www.usbgear.com/USB-Serial.html

Charles

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've got a (FreeBSD) console server that's got two 8-port Rocketport cards in 
> it.  I need to ditch these as they have two problems:  the driver is kind of 
> flakey and basically abandoned, and I'm already three ports short of what I 
> need and we're still adding servers.
>
> Stallion looked nice, specifically this setup:
>
> http://www.stallion.com/html/products/easyconnection.html
>
> Density is great, 64 ports per card.  Price is right too.  However every 
> retailer has these on backorder, and it seems like the stl driver did not 
> make it to 5.x.
>
> This all makes me feel like some old unix nerd.  When I post on the FreeBSD 
> lists it's just crickets. :)
>
> Anyone here have recommendations on decent cards that cost less than buying a 
> standalone console server?  I'd like a minimum of 32 ports on a single 
> card...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charles
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From dlavigne6  Fri Dec 23 17:40:46 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:40:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] latest blog
Message-ID: <20051223174007.E544@dru.domain.org>


http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/unix/bsd/archives/007057.asp

Merry Christmas everyone :-)

Dru



From noreply  Fri Dec 23 18:13:39 2005
From: noreply (Gizmo Project)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:13:39 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] has invited to Gizmo Project
Message-ID: <200512232313.jBNNDdpY006602@misc01.gizmoproject.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20051223/69a64303/attachment.html 


From riegersteve  Fri Dec 23 21:00:01 2005
From: riegersteve (Steve Rieger)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:00:01 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] has invited to Gizmo Project
In-Reply-To: <200512232313.jBNNDdpY006602@misc01.gizmoproject.com>
References: <200512232313.jBNNDdpY006602@misc01.gizmoproject.com>
Message-ID: <90C475C0-D427-4D4A-B58F-7B17AE25865B@gmail.com>

i apologize for that, please disregard.



From okan  Fri Dec 23 23:20:27 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:20:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051224042027.GF74359@yinaska.pair.com>

On Thu 2005.12.22 at 10:14 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> Had never had the need for wireless..
> Getting a new laptop and was wondering how safe it is to use a wireless WEP 
> connection with SSH.

since everyone put their two cents in, i will as well.

i now use a combination of things at home: ipsec, authpf, and ssh.

ipsec - it just works.
authpf - it too works well, but less overhead on a few of my dinky
laptops sitting around the house. (also for devices that have yet been
given keys from my ca)
ssh - i've used ppp over ssh for a while now, for various tasks - from
tunneling out of my network and through some others, to tunneling back
home from a "cafe", of sorts, and using my home net to actually do
anything.

the whole "wireless security" thing is somewhat vague. really, the only
thing one *should* worry about is unauthorized access to your wireless
devices. sniffing, and the lot happen, after the wireless gateway with
mail (non-tls), http and whatnot anyway. ssh, tls/ssl and other such
protocols are far better equiped to handle the workload of protecting
your data (streams, etc) - and they are already there, doing their job.
this is why i really like authpf. ever since i "solved" my interference
issues, i've been providing wireless services to my neighbors, and
authpf is just so simple for those "client" machines. i do ipsec for my
own devices (after i've got the key signed), and i'm replacing my ppp
over ssh tunnels with the shinny new openssh native tunnels (even layer2
ones ;).

so that's my $.02 - have a good one everyone.

cheers,
okan



From okan  Fri Dec 23 23:31:06 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:31:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
In-Reply-To: <20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>
	<20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20051224043106.GG74359@yinaska.pair.com>

On Fri 2005.12.23 at 11:18 -0500, Ray Lai wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:05:54AM -0500, michael wrote:
> > If you haven't seen it:
> > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/12/21/netbsd_cgd.html
> > 
> > He has been a repeat speaker at NYCBUG meetings.
> 
> I've always wondered how gracefully encrypted disks handled crashes.
> Does anyone have any experience?  I've used the encrypted disk image
> for qemu before, but a crash rendered the whole image useless.

doh, that sucks. i haven't had many issues with svnd(4) before. i have
all my home data that i care about in a svnd(4). before i got my new
laptop, i had this old laptop which had zero battery life. i can't count
the number of times i accidentally pulled the power cord, but the device
came up successfully each time. now that i've got a working battery, i
can't recall the last time this thing actually crashed completely, but
what i can say is that i've yet to lose the data in that svnd(4).

now, my use of the device is for files, created/modified by me, a
human. milage varies....

now, i do backups all the time though ;) which i'm sure you do as well.

cheers,
okan



From spork  Sat Dec 24 00:47:31 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:47:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <20051224042027.GF74359@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051224042027.GF74359@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512240046210.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Okan Demirmen wrote:

> and i'm replacing my ppp over ssh tunnels with the shinny new openssh 
> native tunnels (even layer2 ones ;).

Got any pointers to a FAQ/HOWTO?  I'm really a bit behind the curve on the 
new stuff that's popped into openssh the last few years...

Thanks,

Charles

> so that's my $.02 - have a good one everyone.
>
> cheers,
> okan
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From lists  Sat Dec 24 19:02:02 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:02:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<65B20AC8-C77E-4CF4-B3EF-E42E800D24F9@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1135468922.230510.55383.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> This is very similar to a VPN, except it's much faster to setup and  
> discard, (to me, at least...).  Something like:


Thanks for the detailed email. The chart did help.
I will read in detail later...

After you get a chance to read Dan's article let me know if you think the 
approach you described is still usefull .. or if I should go for the full 
blown setup Dan describes.



From lists  Sat Dec 24 19:04:02 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:04:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
References: <43AAF33D.16544.15924B27@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1135469042.795977.55383.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Dan Langille writes:

> OK, you've shamed me into to finally publishing it:
>   http://www.freebsddiary.org/ipsec-wireless-xp.php

:-)

Thanks.

Have spent the day fighting with the partitioning.. more on that on separate 
email.

> FWIW, I have my laptop triple booting with XP, 4.11, and 6.  I blam 
> to remove 4.11 and 6 and reinstall 6 from scratch.

What do you use as boot manager? I am happy with GAG, but always willing to 
look at what is out there.




From lists  Sat Dec 24 19:14:05 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:14:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How NOT to setup a laptop with FreeBSD. :-(
Message-ID: <cone.1135469645.92519.55383.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Got a Compaq Presario V2410 laptop yesterday.
Spent most of the day trying to resize the single partition.
Tried Knopix, tried SystemCD (some linux distro recovery disk)... and not 
long ago was desperate enough to order Partition Manager version 7

In one of the many tries with Knopix I must have damaged the partition and 
now PM7 can't do it's trick.. I decided to go for broke.. and redo the 
"system recovery disks".

It turns out that these recovery disks actually have a "normal" XP setup 
where I was able to delete the existing partition and make a new one.

I should have simply done that from the beginning. Didn't do it, because I 
expected the recovery disks were going to be specialized.. like once I had a 
Sony VIAO and the recovery disks gave me 0 options.. they just ran straight 
through. 


My advice for would be laptop users with multi-boot need... try the recovery 
disks.. if they allow you to specify size of partition that is the way to 
go... before you start working on the machine.

I would recommend against Knoppix/qtparted. It froze several times and 
eventually ended up damaging the partition info. Perhaps for desktops it 
would work better...

Second part of this advice... don't try partition work with 
relatives/wife/kids around which will interrupt you every 10 to 20 
minutes... and turn a couple of hours work into a whole day affair due to 
constant distractions, interruptions and trips to grocery store to buy 
goodies for Christmas dinner. :-)  



From dan  Sat Dec 24 20:43:50 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 20:43:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135469042.795977.55383.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <43ADB306.19284.543FBFC@dan.langille.org>

On 24 Dec 2005 at 19:04, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Dan Langille writes:
> 
> > FWIW, I have my laptop triple booting with XP, 4.11, and 6.  I blam 
> > to remove 4.11 and 6 and reinstall 6 from scratch.
> 
> What do you use as boot manager? I am happy with GAG, but always willing to 
> look at what is out there.

I use GAG.  http://gag.sourceforge.net/
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From nycbug  Sat Dec 24 21:51:02 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 21:51:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Roland Dowdeswell interview on CGD
In-Reply-To: <20051224043106.GG74359@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <20051223090554.25a25a18@wit.genoverly.home>
	<20051223161850.GA3655@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20051224043106.GG74359@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20051225025101.GA13201@syntax.cyth.net>

On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 11:31:06PM -0500, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> On Fri 2005.12.23 at 11:18 -0500, Ray Lai wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:05:54AM -0500, michael wrote:
> > > If you haven't seen it:
> > > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/12/21/netbsd_cgd.html
> > > 
> > > He has been a repeat speaker at NYCBUG meetings.
> > 
> > I've always wondered how gracefully encrypted disks handled crashes.
> > Does anyone have any experience?  I've used the encrypted disk image
> > for qemu before, but a crash rendered the whole image useless.
> 
> doh, that sucks. i haven't had many issues with svnd(4) before. i have
> all my home data that i care about in a svnd(4). before i got my new
> laptop, i had this old laptop which had zero battery life. i can't count
> the number of times i accidentally pulled the power cord, but the device
> came up successfully each time. now that i've got a working battery, i
> can't recall the last time this thing actually crashed completely, but
> what i can say is that i've yet to lose the data in that svnd(4).

Actually I was talking about qemu's encrypted disk image, not
svnd(4).

> now, i do backups all the time though ;) which i'm sure you do as well.

Of course not. =)

-Ray-



From ike  Mon Dec 26 00:10:38 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 00:10:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Happy Holidaze!
Message-ID: <C001C609-4BB4-41F0-A251-DD364F86DED5@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Thought this would get a quick chuckle-

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~jford/man/xkill

Happy Holidays!

Best,
.ike





From nycbug  Mon Dec 26 02:04:34 2005
From: nycbug (Chris Buechler)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 02:04:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <43AF9602.5070001@chrisbuechler.com>

Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Had never had the need for wireless..
> Getting a new laptop and was wondering how safe it is to use a 
> wireless WEP connection with SSH.
>

This has been pretty much beaten to death, but there's one quick point 
I'd like to throw in.  Always connect to any SSH server on a trusted 
network first, so it saves the server's key.  Watch out for key 
warnings, where the host key does not match the one you have saved.  If 
you get that on an untrusted network, watch out.  sshmitm, part of the 
dsniff [1] suite, allows man in the middle attacks against SSH if you 
are tricked into accepting the "changed" host key.  An attacker can use 
ARP poisoning, amongst other tactics, to route your connections through 
his machine, and accepting the attacker's host key means you have 
nothing more than a SSH connection to his machine, which then relays 
everything to the legit SSH server (with everything, of course, being 
captured, unencrypted, by the attacker). 

1 - http://www.monkey.org/~dugsong/dsniff/

cheers,
-Chris



From lists  Mon Dec 26 10:18:22 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:18:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<43AF9602.5070001@chrisbuechler.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1135610302.776687.80599.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Chris Buechler writes:

> This has been pretty much beaten to death, but there's one quick point 
> I'd like to throw in.  Always connect to any SSH server on a trusted 
> network first

Yes; good point.
I actually copied over the "known_hosts" file from my server.

For now I actually left the wireless router off.

My setup needs some thought.

I have:


  Internet
    |
    |
FreeBSD server/firewall (external IP and 192.168.10 subnet)
    |
    |
regular switch
    |
    |
Wireless router (uses FreeBSD server as gateway).
  publishes 192.168.0 subnet for wireless use



I just need to spend a little time making sure my firewall rules do not 
allow anything in the wireless router to do connect to any of the other 
machines in the 192.168.10 subnet. I am sure it won't be difficult, just 
need to find the time to do it. For now just connected the laptop directly 
to my regular switch.

Also not even sure if the wireless card works under FreeBSD. It works under 
windows XP, but that is the least I will be doing on that laptop.



From chris  Mon Dec 26 14:39:10 2005
From: chris (Chris Clymer)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:39:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200512261439.15047.chris@chrisclymer.com>

On Friday 23 December 2005 12:59 pm, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
>
> On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:48 PM, Trish Lynch wrote:
> >>> Most access points will allow you to setup filters on the MAC.
> >>
> >> Many OS's allow you to change your MAC.
> >> --
> >
> > Yes, but you still have to guess valid macs, right? guess thats
> > firly easy while sniffing.
> >
> > seriously its just another minor layer, but it won't help keep
> > someone from sniffing the wireless.
> >
> > Why use WEP? use WPA, it addresses the issues with WEP.
>
> WPA is definately nicer than WEP, but it's still crackable (and in
> some instances, requires less wireless packet capture to perform a
> successful crack than WEP even):
>
> http://wifinetnews.com/archives/004428.html
>
> "Both the WPA and 802.11i documentation recommend a minimum 20-
> character password. Unfortunately, this small tip is buried in a lot
> of highly technical information, and therefore unavailable to the
> typical SOHO user."
> http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=370636&rl=1
>
> --
> If it's something you care about, change passphrases often- it's
> quite effective dealing with WEP/WPA crack threats, as they both
> simply take time to actually crack the keys.
>

You'd better be changing those keys quickly.  These days WEP is apparently 
crackable in 10 minutes or less:  
http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-6D7E4B

WPA I have been consistently hearing isn't as much better as some of us have 
thought:  http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=369221&rl=1

The original responders had the best method for securing wireless:  don't.  
Secure your own transmissions over it with proven technologies like SSH and 
VPN.  Put your wireless access point on a different network segment from 
everything else, treat it like a leper.  Make your own decisions for how 
locked down your network needs to be, but always assume that your wireless 
access point is as untrusted as a connection could possibly be.

The bottom line is that a lot of people rely heavily on ssh and vpn technology 
for a lot of important things, and if attackers find ways of defeating 
popular implementations of either, theres a lot more to worry about than just 
secure wireless.  With more at stake, one presumes that a better job is being 
done to secure them.  On the other hand, very few people are making serious 
attempts to secure wireless itself.  Its a losers game...the serious security 
people are just using the same ssh and vpn stuff they've been using 
everyplace else...or else they don't install WAP's to begin with.


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From spork  Mon Dec 26 14:26:41 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:26:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <200512261439.15047.chris@chrisclymer.com>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>
	<200512261439.15047.chris@chrisclymer.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512261422330.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005, Chris Clymer wrote:

> The original responders had the best method for securing wireless:  don't.
> Secure your own transmissions over it with proven technologies like SSH and
> VPN.  Put your wireless access point on a different network segment from
> everything else, treat it like a leper.  Make your own decisions for how
> locked down your network needs to be, but always assume that your wireless
> access point is as untrusted as a connection could possibly be.

That seems like good advice...  Once I can figure out why every OpenBSD 
past 3.5 panics on boot on my firewall I'm going to redesign things at 
home.  I think that for a few people here the experience of setting things 
up as if you're doing it for a small business would be very valuable 
experience.

I wonder if anyone can comment on the overhead that running everything 
through a VPN might have?  Specifically when we're talking about older 
hardware.  I still run a G3/600 as my laptop and it seems like OS-X is dog 
slow when it touches the SSL stuff (time page loads in Safari w/SSL and 
w/o)...  I wonder what sort of slowdown this or a slower PII-class intel 
laptop would see once all traffic has to be encrypted (just to be clear, 
WEP/WPA are offloaded to the card if I understand that correctly).

Thanks,

Charles

ps - It's almost 70 degrees here in Florida



From counts  Mon Dec 26 14:42:22 2005
From: counts (counts at digicat.org)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:42:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512261422330.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>
	<200512261439.15047.chris@chrisclymer.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512261422330.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>
Message-ID: <20051226194222.GA23527@leto.moffitt.usf.edu>

On 2005-12-26, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> I wonder if anyone can comment on the overhead that running everything 
> through a VPN might have?  Specifically when we're talking about older 

Charles -

Angelos Keromytis gave a talk a few months ago on IPSec and
had some slides (towards the end) specifically on IPSec performance
which might help. He has an mp3 of his talk on nycbug's site as well
I believe.

Slides available at:
  http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~angelos/NYCBUG/

 - Kevin




From george  Mon Dec 26 20:55:04 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:55:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <20051226194222.GA23527@leto.moffitt.usf.edu>
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>
	<200512261439.15047.chris@chrisclymer.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512261422330.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>
	<20051226194222.GA23527@leto.moffitt.usf.edu>
Message-ID: <20051227015504.GE20946@sta.duo>

>On 2005-12-26, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> I wonder if anyone can comment on the overhead that running everything 
>> through a VPN might have?  Specifically when we're talking about older 
>

Hi Charles-
Interesting thread. you may remember my frustrations
with deploying a vpn a while back, we settled on a
linksys piece of junk which had doggy performance,
before it failed completely.

I was "compelled" to learn and deploy openvpn while
people where unable to work. That turned out a good
thing because the software has been rock solid,
running on a 500Mhz box with 64Mb RAM, and apparently
outperforms the the 2Mb connection it is on.

That aside, a big plus with openvpn is it runs in
user space, which is another way of saying
client/server, *BSD, Mac, Windows, some other OS,
it doesn't matter, mix as you please.

So what does this have to do with wireless ;)
well I happen to notice a feature of openvpn

# If enabled, this directive will configure
# all clients to redirect their default
# network gateway through the VPN, causing
# all IP traffic such as web browsing and
# and DNS lookups to go through the VPN
# (The OpenVPN server machine may need to NAT
# the TUN/TAP interface to the internet in
# order for this to work properly).
# CAVEAT: May break client's network config if
# client's local DHCP server packets get routed
# through the tunnel.  Solution: make sure
# client's local DHCP server is reachable via
# a more specific route than the default route
# of 0.0.0.0/0.0.0.0.
;push "redirect-gateway"

while I haven't tried that out yet, I got most of
the rest of the system in place with these design
goals:

1) max security
2) min hardware
3) min public (wifi available) resources
4) ease of operation

So, I happen to have a 4 port NETGEAR wifi device
(rocks over linksys), a bridging firewall, and
a couple hosts to run on public IPs behind the
bridge.

ISP---+
      |        ( * )
  bridge fw      |
      |          |
      +-------+-----+
host1 --------+ soho+--WAN---
host2 --------+ wifi|
host3 --------+-----+
  |
private lan


(looks much better in pencil) the 3 hosts are connected
to the dmz side of the firewall via the lan switch on
the wifi device, they use public address space.

the wifi is then configured to provide dhcp for
192.168.a.0/24 with a wan ip of 192.168.b.0/24 and
gateway 192.168.b.1/24 and dns of 192.168.b.c/24,
nothing is connected to the wan port.

host3 has two interfaces, a public ip on the dmz and
a private lan address on the other interface. an
alias ip of 192.168.b.c/24 is added to the public
interface, which listens for dns, ssh and openvpn.

so, establish a no password wifi connection and you
have nearly nothing: http htpasswd from the wifi;
dns, sshd and openvpnd from host3. Start openvpn and
gain an ip in the private lan and a default route
via the private lan gateway.

kinda stinks that I cannot turn off the wifi http
interface to the air (that's not wan access), but
I can have it email failed passwd attempts to a
procmail recipe to call the police to arrest my
neighbor... kidding.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From njt  Tue Dec 27 12:19:57 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:19:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
Message-ID: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>

Sometime last week, the FreeBSD 5.4-p6 machine I had been using merrily
since August started crapping out on me.

It rebooted spontaneously twice last week while I was using it. Over the
weekend, it rebooted itself at least two more times.

(I have installed no new software on this box in months, and I'm fairly
certain it is not a security issue (it's tied down fairly well, and the
only service pf allows is ssh from the local LAN).)

This morning I came back in to find that it is rebooting roughly every
2-3 minutes or so, but only when I access the disk.

Nothing in /var/log seems to indicate what is the problem, but I noticed
I was able to get it to reboot on me twice by running "less
/var/log/messages". I noticed I can occasionally make it reboot if I
open some file.

Has anyone experience anything similar? How can I go about debugging
this?

If this a disk issue, I can easily replace the disk and restore
everything from the latest backup, but I'd like to find the root cause
before I start throwing hardware at the problem.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From okan  Tue Dec 27 12:27:51 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:27:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051227172751.GC18390@yinaska.pair.com>

On Tue 2005.12.27 at 12:19 -0500, N.J. Thomas wrote:
> Sometime last week, the FreeBSD 5.4-p6 machine I had been using merrily
> since August started crapping out on me.
> 
> It rebooted spontaneously twice last week while I was using it. Over the
> weekend, it rebooted itself at least two more times.
> 
> (I have installed no new software on this box in months, and I'm fairly
> certain it is not a security issue (it's tied down fairly well, and the
> only service pf allows is ssh from the local LAN).)
> 
> This morning I came back in to find that it is rebooting roughly every
> 2-3 minutes or so, but only when I access the disk.
> 
> Nothing in /var/log seems to indicate what is the problem, but I noticed
> I was able to get it to reboot on me twice by running "less
> /var/log/messages". I noticed I can occasionally make it reboot if I
> open some file.
> 
> Has anyone experience anything similar? How can I go about debugging
> this?
> 
> If this a disk issue, I can easily replace the disk and restore
> everything from the latest backup, but I'd like to find the root cause
> before I start throwing hardware at the problem.
> 
> Any suggestions appreciated.

who "kicked" the box last? :) first make sure everything is seated well.
if still rebooting, take your favorite *BSD live cd and see what that
does. i don't recall what freebsd has, but trying booting the default
bsd.rd (openbsd) from the disk. you can also boot memtest86 too - or a
simple dos disk...that's some things i'd start with...

good luck.



From okan  Tue Dec 27 12:28:45 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:28:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512240046210.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>
References: <cone.1135264477.465869.27534.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051224042027.GF74359@yinaska.pair.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512240046210.6056@charles-sprickmans-computer-2.local>
Message-ID: <20051227172845.GD18390@yinaska.pair.com>

On Sat 2005.12.24 at 00:47 -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> 
> >and i'm replacing my ppp over ssh tunnels with the shinny new openssh 
> >native tunnels (even layer2 ones ;).
> 
> Got any pointers to a FAQ/HOWTO?  I'm really a bit behind the curve on the 
> new stuff that's popped into openssh the last few years...

/usr/src/usr.bin/ssh/README.tun

;)

cheers,
okan



From jpb  Tue Dec 27 12:30:39 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:30:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051227173039.GA7461@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* N.J. Thomas <njt at ayvali.org> [2005-12-27 12:20]:
> Sometime last week, the FreeBSD 5.4-p6 machine I had been using merrily
> since August started crapping out on me.
> 
> It rebooted spontaneously twice last week while I was using it. Over the
> weekend, it rebooted itself at least two more times.
> 
> (I have installed no new software on this box in months, and I'm fairly
> certain it is not a security issue (it's tied down fairly well, and the
> only service pf allows is ssh from the local LAN).)
> 
> This morning I came back in to find that it is rebooting roughly every
> 2-3 minutes or so, but only when I access the disk.
> 
> Nothing in /var/log seems to indicate what is the problem, but I noticed
> I was able to get it to reboot on me twice by running "less
> /var/log/messages". I noticed I can occasionally make it reboot if I
> open some file.
> 
> Has anyone experience anything similar? How can I go about debugging
> this?
> 
> If this a disk issue, I can easily replace the disk and restore
> everything from the latest backup, but I'd like to find the root cause
> before I start throwing hardware at the problem.
> 
> Any suggestions appreciated.
> 
> Thomas



I'd start with a fresh disk and reinstall from your original 5.4 media,
setting aside your current disk.

If you still have problems I'd suspect hardware.
If not, I'd suspect a compromise.

Thoughts for hardware:
  - excessive heat
  - memory chips failing
  - an installed card (video, hard disk, usb, serial, etc.)
  - static buildup

Maybe others have some thoughts...


Best Regards,
Jim B.




From alex  Tue Dec 27 13:37:39 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:37:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <20051227172845.GD18390@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512271337030.2811-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Okan Demirmen wrote:

> On Sat 2005.12.24 at 00:47 -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> > 
> > >and i'm replacing my ppp over ssh tunnels with the shinny new openssh 
> > >native tunnels (even layer2 ones ;).
> > 
> > Got any pointers to a FAQ/HOWTO?  I'm really a bit behind the curve on the 
> > new stuff that's popped into openssh the last few years...
> 
> /usr/src/usr.bin/ssh/README.tun
tcp over tcp = bad juju

http://sites.inka.de/sites/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html

-alex




From spork  Tue Dec 27 14:42:26 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:42:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>


> I have 2 of these cards still, and have been mucking about just trying to get 
> *any* kind of install to happen using them with FreeBSD (their specs are 
> *soooo* much nicer than my Adaptec cards, at the same price...)

Ike,

I've been following some discussions on the Postgres-performance list 
since I'm needing to think about chaning our RAID build (currently Adaptec 
ZCR SCSI stuff).  I'm kind of seeing some serious slagging of traditional 
SCSI host-based RAID controllers there - the on-card processors don't seem 
to be keeping pace with the scsi chain, newer drives, or modern computing 
in general...  Notice how NO ONE that sells host-based RAID cards posts 
any benchmarks in their sales/tech slicks...??

That said, many there are talking about SATA RAID.  These are database 
people, mind you, who are very picky about storage.  The 9500 series cards 
are very highly recommended, but there's also a brand that I have not 
heard of before called "Areca": 
http://www.areca.com.tw/index/html/index.htm

These are getting very positive reviews, and Areca's benchmarks claim that 
they beat out 3Ware as well.  FreeBSD is mentioned throughout their site, 
and the driver author for FreeBSD is an Areca employee.

Just thought I'd share this...

Charles



From okan  Tue Dec 27 15:48:09 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:48:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512271337030.2811-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <20051227172845.GD18390@yinaska.pair.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0512271337030.2811-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20051227204809.GD41854@yinaska.pair.com>

On Tue 2005.12.27 at 13:37 -0500, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> 
> > On Sat 2005.12.24 at 00:47 -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> > > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Okan Demirmen wrote:
> > > 
> > > >and i'm replacing my ppp over ssh tunnels with the shinny new openssh 
> > > >native tunnels (even layer2 ones ;).
> > > 
> > > Got any pointers to a FAQ/HOWTO?  I'm really a bit behind the curve on the 
> > > new stuff that's popped into openssh the last few years...
> > 
> > /usr/src/usr.bin/ssh/README.tun
> tcp over tcp = bad juju
> 
> http://sites.inka.de/sites/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html

yes...this is well known, but the key is one has options. actually, this
is one reason to stay way from those xyz vendors' ssl vpns - though some
vendors are doing hybrids with ipsec now...why not just use ipsec,
vendor xyz??

anyway, back on topic - sometimes it's good to have options (ssh over
ppp or tun). for example, my corner coffee shop restricts to 80/443, but
with nc (netcat) and ssh over tun/ppp, i'm golden. this would be
considered ad-hoc - definately not something to replace ipsec....

cheers,
okan



From njt  Tue Dec 27 15:50:34 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:50:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227173039.GA7461@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
	<20051227173039.GA7461@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>

* Jim Brown <jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> [2005-12-27 12:30:39 -0500]:
> > This morning I came back in to find that it is rebooting roughly
> > every 2-3 minutes or so, but only when I access the disk.
> 
>   - excessive heat
>   - memory chips failing
>   - an installed card (video, hard disk, usb, serial, etc.)
>   - static buildup

I think (but I'm not sure) it is a heating issue.

I ran memtest86+ on the machine right now and it went through two
complete passes with no errors.

However, someone noticed that one of the fans on the side of the case
(this is one of those fancy see-through cases with two fans built into
the side covers) was not running...so I cracked open the cover for a bit
and lo an behold, the machine ran for about 2 hours before rebooting
again.

This is an AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (1.5GHz) system, and I understand that
AMd chips run hot, so I think cooling is more critical than in Intel
systems.

I went into the BIOS right now and I saw that the CPU temp was hovering
between 50 and 54 degrees Celsius. It has an alarm more that will warn
you if your CPU is above some pre-defined temp, but since it allows you
to set this temperature between 50 and 75C, I'm not exactly sure what
"normal" is.

In any case, just to rule out unseated cards...I'll open this box up,
reseat everything and clean out the dust bunnies on the inside of the
machine (there is quite a bit in there).

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From joshmccormack  Tue Dec 27 15:54:58 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:54:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
	<20051227173039.GA7461@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <e22ad7830512271254v618e7de3r69b9855f8c681e92@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/27/05, N.J. Thomas <njt at ayvali.org> wrote:
> * Jim Brown <jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> [2005-12-27 12:30:39 -0500]:
> I went into the BIOS right now and I saw that the CPU temp was hovering
> between 50 and 54 degrees Celsius. It has an alarm more that will warn
> you if your CPU is above some pre-defined temp, but since it allows you
> to set this temperature between 50 and 75C, I'm not exactly sure what
> "normal" is.
>
> In any case, just to rule out unseated cards...I'll open this box up,
> reseat everything and clean out the dust bunnies on the inside of the
> machine (there is quite a bit in there).
>
> Thomas
>
> --
> N.J. Thomas
> njt at ayvali.org
> Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo

Wireless KVM, put the machine outside on your balcony. It will love
the weather, as long as it doesn't rain.

Josh



From okan  Tue Dec 27 16:04:41 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:04:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
	<20051227173039.GA7461@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051227210441.GE41854@yinaska.pair.com>

On Tue 2005.12.27 at 15:50 -0500, N.J. Thomas wrote:
> * Jim Brown <jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> [2005-12-27 12:30:39 -0500]:
> > > This morning I came back in to find that it is rebooting roughly
> > > every 2-3 minutes or so, but only when I access the disk.
> > 
> >   - excessive heat
> >   - memory chips failing
> >   - an installed card (video, hard disk, usb, serial, etc.)
> >   - static buildup
> 
> I think (but I'm not sure) it is a heating issue.
> 
> I ran memtest86+ on the machine right now and it went through two
> complete passes with no errors.
> 
> However, someone noticed that one of the fans on the side of the case
> (this is one of those fancy see-through cases with two fans built into
> the side covers) was not running...so I cracked open the cover for a bit
> and lo an behold, the machine ran for about 2 hours before rebooting
> again.

ah yes, heating...err, rather, cooling.

> This is an AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (1.5GHz) system, and I understand that
> AMd chips run hot, so I think cooling is more critical than in Intel
> systems.
>
> I went into the BIOS right now and I saw that the CPU temp was hovering
> between 50 and 54 degrees Celsius. It has an alarm more that will warn
> you if your CPU is above some pre-defined temp, but since it allows you
> to set this temperature between 50 and 75C, I'm not exactly sure what
> "normal" is.
 
$ sysctl hw.model
hw.model=AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+

runs at:
hw.sensors.10=lm0, Temp2, temp, 31.50 degC / 88.70 degF

i run all my sensors through rrd, as well as, having sensorsd tell me
when things "look" like they are going too hot/cold/slow/fast...i'd
suggest the same for you.

> In any case, just to rule out unseated cards...I'll open this box up,
> reseat everything and clean out the dust bunnies on the inside of the
> machine (there is quite a bit in there).

dust can also block airflow ;)

cheers,
okan



From nycbug-list  Tue Dec 27 16:16:12 2005
From: nycbug-list (Jonathan Vanasco)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:16:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD rebooting every 120 seconds =-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <42E496F1-6BBF-4D64-ADE6-22495FECD9FD@2xlp.com>


Same thing happened to me this summer.

Gave every suggestion it was some odd software / disk error.

It wasn't.  The culprit?  Bad power supply from a brownout/power  
fluctuation in the building, which eventually fried the CPU.

I'd toss a new power supply in there ASAP, just to be safe, as you  
continue your testing (they're like $30, you might even have a  
spare).  Then check to make sure all of the CPU and case fans are in  
working order.  If this is the problem, and you get to it in time,  
your CPU/MoBo is safe.  In my situation, it was the last thing I  
tested, and it ended up taking out the CPU.  Not ideal.

 From my experience, this  sounds exactly like that issue -- but  
thats only because I've NEVER had a non-windows machine go into a  
reboot cycle aside from this one bad power supply.


On Dec 27, 2005, at 12:19 PM, N.J. Thomas wrote:

> Sometime last week, the FreeBSD 5.4-p6 machine I had been using  
> merrily
> since August started crapping out on me.
>
> It rebooted spontaneously twice last week while I was using it.  
> Over the
> weekend, it rebooted itself at least two more times.
>
> (I have installed no new software on this box in months, and I'm  
> fairly
> certain it is not a security issue (it's tied down fairly well, and  
> the
> only service pf allows is ssh from the local LAN).)
>
> This morning I came back in to find that it is rebooting roughly every
> 2-3 minutes or so, but only when I access the disk.
>
> Nothing in /var/log seems to indicate what is the problem, but I  
> noticed
> I was able to get it to reboot on me twice by running "less
> /var/log/messages". I noticed I can occasionally make it reboot if I
> open some file.
>
> Has anyone experience anything similar? How can I go about debugging
> this?
>
> If this a disk issue, I can easily replace the disk and restore
> everything from the latest backup, but I'd like to find the root cause
> before I start throwing hardware at the problem.
>
> Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> Thomas




From njt  Tue Dec 27 16:54:05 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:54:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: dead >=-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227171956.GD25765@ayvali.org>
	<20051227173039.GA7461@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051227215403.GG25765@ayvali.org>

* N.J. Thomas <njt at ayvali.org> [2005-12-27 15:50:34 -0500]:
> I'll open this box up, reseat everything and clean out the dust
> bunnies on the inside of the machine (there is quite a bit in there).

Well, after opening up the box, cleaning out all the dust with a can of
compressed air (a cold one, that) and making sure all the cards were
seated properly and plugs were fastened together, I couldn't restart the
machine -- it looks like the motherboard died.

I'm told by my coworker in the office that the mobo of an identical
machine he had died last year. Said something about the vendor doing a
poor job of putting the whole thing together.

Thanks to all who helped out. I guess the only good side to this whole
thing is that it wasn't an FreeBSD or security issue.

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From dan  Tue Dec 27 21:01:41 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:01:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: dead >=-(
In-Reply-To: <20051227215403.GG25765@ayvali.org>
References: <20051227205034.GF25765@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <43B1ABB5.16057.707ECE2@dan.langille.org>

On 27 Dec 2005 at 16:54, N.J. Thomas wrote:

> Thanks to all who helped out. I guess the only good side to this whole
> thing is that it wasn't an FreeBSD or security issue.

If the drives are still good, and it sounds like they should be, all 
you might need to do is get a new box or mainboard, and you're all 
set.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From tux  Thu Dec 29 01:31:15 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:31:15 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Happy Holidays from Colorado!
Message-ID: <43B382B3.5030007@penguinnetwerx.net>

Been kinda quiet lately because the only Net access I have is wireless 
DSL, and wifi on my FreeBSD laptop isn't working just yet, but I wanted 
to wish everyone a Happy Holiday..

See y'all next year!

Kev



From ike  Fri Dec 30 22:33:43 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:33:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <42478985-E09E-4B02-B99D-72E2EBA7DD59@lesmuug.org>

Hi Charles,

*THANK YOU* very much, (my time spent with the 3Ware SATA cards feels  
wasted at this point- they are still for sale, all shiny and such, if  
any OpenBSD folks want them...)

On Dec 27, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

>
>> I have 2 of these cards still, and have been mucking about just  
>> trying to get *any* kind of install to happen using them with  
>> FreeBSD (their specs are *soooo* much nicer than my Adaptec cards,  
>> at the same price...)
>
> Ike,
>
> I've been following some discussions on the Postgres-performance  
> list since I'm needing to think about chaning our RAID build  
> (currently Adaptec ZCR SCSI stuff).  I'm kind of seeing some  
> serious slagging of traditional SCSI host-based RAID controllers  
> there - the on-card processors don't seem to be keeping pace with  
> the scsi chain, newer drives, or modern computing in general...   
> Notice how NO ONE that sells host-based RAID cards posts any  
> benchmarks in their sales/tech slicks...??
>
> That said, many there are talking about SATA RAID.  These are  
> database people, mind you, who are very picky about storage.  The  
> 9500 series cards are very highly recommended, but there's also a  
> brand that I have not heard of before called "Areca": http:// 
> www.areca.com.tw/index/html/index.htm

"Easy RAID Management
The controller firmware also contains McBIOS RAID manager can access  
via hot key at BIOS boot-up screen and browser-based McRAID manager  
that can access from local and remote through the Http Proxy server  
in Windows, Linux, FreeBSD environment."

Neat!

"Greater than 2TB per volume set to support 64-bit LBA OS"

Sick...  This made me very sad with the other raid options- (when  
using a 16 channel SATA card from Adaptec...)

> These are getting very positive reviews, and Areca's benchmarks  
> claim that they beat out 3Ware as well.  FreeBSD is mentioned  
> throughout their site, and the driver author for FreeBSD is an  
> Areca employee.
>
> Just thought I'd share this...
>
> Charles

Thanks again Charles!

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Fri Dec 30 22:38:33 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:38:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512271337030.2811-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0512271337030.2811-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <029F4E22-52C8-4C00-A63A-FF079D70ABBE@lesmuug.org>

Thanks Alex,

On Dec 27, 2005, at 1:37 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

>> /usr/src/usr.bin/ssh/README.tun
> tcp over tcp = bad juju
>
> http://sites.inka.de/sites/bigred/devel/tcp-tcp.html
>
> -alex

And there we go, *finally* a solid reason someone answered as to why  
ipsec (or other vpn tech) exists, when ssh tunnels are so easy and  
*everywhere*.

While I still absolutely love my ssh tunnels, this is the most  
solidly compelling reason to setup ipsec I've ever seen.  Although  
ssh tunnels are so easy and flexible, this article just makes plain  
sense...

Rocket-
.ike





From lists  Sat Dec 31 02:21:28 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:21:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Charles Sprickman writes:

> That said, many there are talking about SATA RAID.  These are database 
> people, mind you, who are very picky about storage.  The 9500 series cards 
> are very highly recommended

We just got a machine with a 9550SX on it.
It was a hassle installing FreeBSD on it. Had to boot a loadable module from 
a floppy. Once the machine was upgraded to 6 Stable it was fine since the 
driver for the card was added in early December to the source tree.


> , but there's also a brand that I have not 
> heard of before called "Areca": 
> http://www.areca.com.tw/index/html/index.htm

I have read very good reviews and good feedback on other lists. Also they 
are one of the few cards that can do RAID 6 (parity distributed to 2 disks).

The reason we went with 3Ware in the latest server is because the vendor of 
the machine mentioned that 3Ware had a unique technology which would better 
safeguard the data upon power loss. He said that one would have to turn off 
the cache in the Areca to be as safe as the 3Ware.. and that the 3Ware with 
cache enable was safe.. as long as one got power back before the card 
batteries ran out. 

 
> These are getting very positive reviews, and Areca's benchmarks claim that 
> they beat out 3Ware as well.

Have seen a few reviews where the Areca's did better, but according to the 
an engineer where we bought our latest server the 3Ware 9550SX outperforms 
the areca offerings.




From lists  Sat Dec 31 02:28:23 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:28:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<43ABDA1D.13751.1918205A@dan.langille.org>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1136014103.320906.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Trish Lynch writes:

> Why use WEP? use WPA, it addresses the issues with WEP.

>From the little I researched it seems WPA has it's own set of drawbacks.. 
although not as bad as WEP.

I plan to go over Dan's notes this weekend... if I am able to figure out 
if the card is supported. A quick look.. and it didn't seemed like it 
was.




From lists  Sat Dec 31 02:29:54 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:29:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] How secure: wireless + ssh?
References: <cone.1135289842.942365.16185.5001@35st-server.simplicato.com>
	<43ABDA1D.13751.1918205A@dan.langille.org>
	<20051223124700.L795@daemon.bsdunix.net>
	<F08035B4-20F1-430A-96B5-508369C53912@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136014194.337.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> "Both the WPA and 802.11i documentation recommend a minimum 20- 
> character password.

I saw that..
Since I am totally bad about it.. I asked the wife..
she came up with a 32 letter password that was super easy to remember. :-)
I am even using it already with an SSH key. :-)





From g  Sat Dec 31 10:18:23 2005
From: g (Gordon Smith)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:18:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <0ISD003MFBUOHNON@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

 

-----Original Message-----
Francisco Reyes writes:

> We just got a machine with a 9550SX on it.
> It was a hassle installing FreeBSD on it. Had to boot a loadable module
from 
> a floppy. Once the machine was upgraded to 6 Stable it was fine since the 
> driver for the card was added in early December to the source tree.
...
> The reason we went with 3Ware in the latest server is because the vendor
of 
> the machine mentioned that 3Ware had a unique technology which would
better 
> safeguard the data upon power loss. He said that one would have to turn
off 
> the cache in the Areca to be as safe as the 3Ware.. and that the 3Ware
with 
> cache enable was safe.. as long as one got power back before the card 
> batteries ran out. 

Sounds really compelling.  I think Ike mentioned that *his* issue was the
use of the 3Ware card with SMP enabled in FreeBSD 6.  Do you have SMP
enabled in the same 6 Stable machine that has the 3Ware card installed?




From lists  Sat Dec 31 11:51:31 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:51:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0ISD003MFBUOHNON@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1136047891.714699.27817.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Gordon Smith writes:

> Sounds really compelling.  I think Ike mentioned that *his* issue was the
> use of the 3Ware card with SMP enabled in FreeBSD 6.  Do you have SMP
> enabled in the same 6 Stable machine that has the 3Ware card installed?


Yes.
It's a dual Opteron machine. I think it's 244s. Running i386 FreeBSD.
I have it running bonnie on a loop since yesterday (Friday 12-29).
We also left it overnight running bonnie the night before that. So far no 
problems.


FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs
 cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1

       -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random--
        -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks---
Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU  /sec %CPU
      4000 84454 93.3 152340 46.9 50510 17.2 54282 64.9 93387 19.4 457.3 2.1

Raid 10 with 6 drives (+2 hot spares which should not have affected the 
test).

Just running bonnie to burn the machine in.. to make sure it won't day early 
on.. Had a machine a week ago that died the second day it was at the office. 
That's why I like to let something running on the machines for a few days 
before dragging them to the data center.



From ike  Sat Dec 31 12:17:47 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:17:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>

Hi Francisco, All,

On Dec 31, 2005, at 2:21 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Charles Sprickman writes:
>
>> That said, many there are talking about SATA RAID.  These are  
>> database people, mind you, who are very picky about storage.  The  
>> 9500 series cards are very highly recommended
>
> We just got a machine with a 9550SX on it.
> It was a hassle installing FreeBSD on it. Had to boot a loadable  
> module from a floppy. Once the machine was upgraded to 6 Stable it  
> was fine since the driver for the card was added in early December  
> to the source tree.

Right- but has anyone simply tried to *install* straight FreeBSD 6  
using the card?  *Not fun*, so far.  The TWE driver is not loading  
properly after installing, so it boots ok from the bootonly ISO, but  
after a fairly 'stock' install, (no wacky options), rebooting (for  
the first machine boot) just sits tossing errors over and over...

>
>
>> , but there's also a brand that I have not heard of before called  
>> "Areca": http://www.areca.com.tw/index/html/index.htm
>
> I have read very good reviews and good feedback on other lists.  
> Also they are one of the few cards that can do RAID 6 (parity  
> distributed to 2 disks).
>
> The reason we went with 3Ware in the latest server is because the  
> vendor of the machine mentioned that 3Ware had a unique technology  
> which would better safeguard the data upon power loss. He said that  
> one would have to turn off the cache in the Areca to be as safe as  
> the 3Ware.. and that the 3Ware with cache enable was safe.. as long  
> as one got power back before the card batteries ran out.

The Areca Raid Controller cards have a battery backup option too,  
with most cards I've bought it's always an add-on option.

 From what I found online, the Areca battery is designed to sit in  
the metal PCI backplane, (doesn't plug into the PCI slot), because  
the card is fat enough on it's own.
http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sata_raid_controllers/

The 3Ware card battery add-on option fits on the card itself, which  
I'd say is a consideration for a 1u system...  (Although the battery  
backup could fit elsewhere in the server case?)

Just tossing that info into this thread for the record.

>> These are getting very positive reviews, and Areca's benchmarks  
>> claim that they beat out 3Ware as well.

Gotcha.  If someone has an Areca card, I have a spare of the 3Ware,  
we could do a NYC*BUG test...

>
> Have seen a few reviews where the Areca's did better, but according  
> to the an engineer where we bought our latest server the 3Ware  
> 9550SX outperforms the areca offerings.

Right- hrm.
/me doesn't trust any vendor or sales engineer until I live with it  
for a few years...

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Sat Dec 31 12:27:16 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:27:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136047891.714699.27817.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <0ISD003MFBUOHNON@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<cone.1136047891.714699.27817.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <34053A97-2EFB-4A5C-989C-180E073B51F9@lesmuug.org>

Oy, perhaps key to why I have problems, and you don't seem to,

On Dec 31, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Yes.
> It's a dual Opteron machine. I think it's 244s. Running i386 FreeBSD.
> I have it running bonnie on a loop since yesterday (Friday 12-29).
> We also left it overnight running bonnie the night before that. So  
> far no problems.
>
>
> FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs
> cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
> cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1

I'm running dual Xeon machines.

CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.00GHz (3000.12-MHz 686-class CPU)
   Hyperthreading: 2 logical CPUs
cpu0: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
acpi_throttle0: <ACPI CPU Throttling> on cpu0

--
Now I'm jealous and pouting. :)

Rocket-
.ike





From dan  Sat Dec 31 12:36:13 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:36:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>
References: <cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <43B67B3D.7320.19D28A76@dan.langille.org>

On 31 Dec 2005 at 12:17, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Right- but has anyone simply tried to *install* straight FreeBSD 6  
> using the card?  *Not fun*, so far.  The TWE driver is not loading  
> properly after installing, so it boots ok from the bootonly ISO, but  
> after a fairly 'stock' install, (no wacky options), rebooting (for  
> the first machine boot) just sits tossing errors over and over...

I think I have succeeded with the 3Ware 7006-2 card.  I saw that only 
because the twe0 looks familiar.  I'll be trying it again in the next 
few days, so I'll confirm later.

FYI: http://www.freebsddiary.org/freebsd-6.0-disk-timings.php

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From lists  Sat Dec 31 12:45:08 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:45:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0ISD003MFBUOHNON@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<cone.1136047891.714699.27817.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<34053A97-2EFB-4A5C-989C-180E073B51F9@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136051108.330214.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> Oy, perhaps key to why I have problems, and you don't seem to,

You have the 9500  or 9550SX?
I am running the newer 9550SX which seems the makers of 3ware have done new 
drivers for it.
 
> I'm running dual Xeon machines.

Maybe you could try the 9550SX drivers.. but check with AMCC first. I notice 
many of their drivers are backware compatible.



From ike  Sat Dec 31 12:46:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:46:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <43B67B3D.7320.19D28A76@dan.langille.org>
References: <cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<43B67B3D.7320.19D28A76@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <136DB6D2-9B1C-45FE-8D48-E42D7CDF2E4B@lesmuug.org>

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the offer and shout out, but it may not be relevant,

On Dec 31, 2005, at 12:36 PM, Dan Langille wrote:

>> Right- but has anyone simply tried to *install* straight FreeBSD 6
>> using the card?  *Not fun*, so far.  The TWE driver is not loading
>> properly after installing, so it boots ok from the bootonly ISO, but
>> after a fairly 'stock' install, (no wacky options), rebooting (for
>> the first machine boot) just sits tossing errors over and over...
>
> I think I have succeeded with the 3Ware 7006-2 card.  I saw that only
> because the twe0 looks familiar.  I'll be trying it again in the next
> few days, so I'll confirm later.
>
> FYI: http://www.freebsddiary.org/freebsd-6.0-disk-timings.php

The cards I'm speaking about again are:

'3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp

4 port SATA low-profile, raid 0,1,5,10,JOBD

--
It is indeed the twe driver,
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=twe&sektion=4&manpath=FreeBSD 
+6.0-RELEASE

But it's the SATA part that seems to be puking terribly...

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Sat Dec 31 12:49:13 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:49:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <136DB6D2-9B1C-45FE-8D48-E42D7CDF2E4B@lesmuug.org>
References: <cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<43B67B3D.7320.19D28A76@dan.langille.org>
	<136DB6D2-9B1C-45FE-8D48-E42D7CDF2E4B@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <8E867077-E8D2-426F-8EA5-D2663F10F7B2@lesmuug.org>

WOAH, CORRECTION:

On Dec 31, 2005, at 12:46 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> The cards I'm speaking about again are:
>
> '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA'
> http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata9000.asp
>
> 4 port SATA low-profile, raid 0,1,5,10,JOBD
>
> --
> It is indeed the twe driver,
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi? 
> query=twe&sektion=4&manpath=FreeBSD+6.0-RELEASE

FALSE- I meant the twa driver:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=twa&sektion=4&manpath=FreeBSD 
+6.0-RELEASE

>
> But it's the SATA part that seems to be puking terribly...
>
> Rocket-
> .ike

Sorry for the mistake.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Sat Dec 31 12:50:38 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:50:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136051108.330214.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <0ISD003MFBUOHNON@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<cone.1136047891.714699.27817.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<34053A97-2EFB-4A5C-989C-180E073B51F9@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136051108.330214.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <CF58D2F8-1BE6-4E82-8931-BA737196EB85@lesmuug.org>

Hy Francisco,

On Dec 31, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Isaac Levy writes:
>
>> Oy, perhaps key to why I have problems, and you don't seem to,
>
> You have the 9500  or 9550SX?
> I am running the newer 9550SX which seems the makers of 3ware have  
> done new drivers for it.
>> I'm running dual Xeon machines.

9500 (not SX).  When purchasing, I actually saw some bad notes on the  
SX on some mailing list thread, so I went with what I believed was a  
'reliable' older solution...

http://www.freebsd.org/releases/6.0R/hardware-i386.html

> Maybe you could try the 9550SX drivers.. but check with AMCC first.  
> I notice many of their drivers are backware compatible.

This is worth a shot, that is now in my queue to try Monday afternoon  
when I'm back with the hardware.

Rocket-
.ike





From lists  Sat Dec 31 12:52:00 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:52:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136051520.433752.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> Right- but has anyone simply tried to *install* straight FreeBSD 6  
> using the card? 

I thik you would need to do a 6 Stable ISO disk... which I didn't know how 
to do, so followed AMCCs instructions. Installed 5.4, then loaded module 
from floppy... then upgraded to 6 stable.


> *Not fun*, so far.  The TWE driver is not loading  
> properly after installing, so it boots ok from the bootonly ISO, but  
> after a fairly 'stock' install, (no wacky options), rebooting (for  
> the first machine boot) just sits tossing errors over and over...


I believe support for the 9550SX went in around Dec 7. You would need an ISO 
after that date.

> The Areca Raid Controller cards have a battery backup option too,  
> with most cards I've bought it's always an add-on option.

What the tech at the vendor mentioned was beyond just battery backup. 
Supposedly they have an algorithm that safeguards the data... supposedly 
better than just the run off the mill backup. I will as the tech if it's ok 
to quote his email.. he explained it better. :-) 


> The 3Ware card battery add-on option fits on the card itself, which  
> I'd say is a consideration for a 1u system.

I think the PCI next to the card would be pretty tight after adding the 
add-on.

> /me doesn't trust any vendor or sales engineer until I live with it  
> for a few years...

I think most people won't really be able to test most of the differences.. I 
don't know other places, but where I work thinks like "test", "benchmark".. 
don't get much priority.. All I hear is "when will the machine be ready".. 
Lucky for me we recently had a machine die on the second day so I use that 
now as a reference as to why I like to keep the machine for a few days 
without doing much real work on it.. I would hate to spend a day or two 
setting up a machine for production to then have it die and have to return 
it. 



From lists  Sat Dec 31 13:03:23 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:03:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0ISD003MFBUOHNON@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<cone.1136047891.714699.27817.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<34053A97-2EFB-4A5C-989C-180E073B51F9@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136051108.330214.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<CF58D2F8-1BE6-4E82-8931-BA737196EB85@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136052203.307161.28540.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> http://www.freebsd.org/releases/6.0R/hardware-i386.html

The SX cards were not supported at release.
If memory serves me well AMCC did spanking new drivers for the SX series 
whereas they were sharing drivers from older versions for the 9500.

The list of supported cards/OS is a bit convoluted

With any luck you will be able to use the same drivers. 

> This is worth a shot, that is now in my queue to try Monday afternoon  
> when I'm back with the hardware.

Hope it works.

As for the CPU difference, I think it is a possible factor, but given that 
we are using different drivers altogether I would not say it's very 
conclusive.. specially since I started out with 5.4 and binaries from AMCC.

Did you try the questions list or the hardware list? Also AMCC seems to be 
responsive to FreeBSD questions. May be worth a shot trying to contact them.



From ike  Sat Dec 31 13:08:03 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:08:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136051520.433752.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136051520.433752.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <931E78FC-4883-4C5C-9D19-9FB26F7F5BB6@lesmuug.org>

Hey Francisco,

Thanks for hanging with me on this thread- it's providing me with a  
lot of good insight man.

On Dec 31, 2005, at 12:52 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Isaac Levy writes:
>
>> Right- but has anyone simply tried to *install* straight FreeBSD  
>> 6  using the card?
>
> I thik you would need to do a 6 Stable ISO disk... which I didn't  
> know how to do, so followed AMCCs instructions. Installed 5.4, then  
> loaded module from floppy... then upgraded to 6 stable.

OUCH OUCH OUCH.  I can't do this for production webservers, I just  
can't.
/me begins to quietly cry and whimper

>
>
>> *Not fun*, so far.  The TWE driver is not loading  properly after  
>> installing, so it boots ok from the bootonly ISO, but  after a  
>> fairly 'stock' install, (no wacky options), rebooting (for  the  
>> first machine boot) just sits tossing errors over and over...
>
>
> I believe support for the 9550SX went in around Dec 7. You would  
> need an ISO after that date.

OK- this is also in my queue for Monday afternoon to try.

>
>> The Areca Raid Controller cards have a battery backup option too,   
>> with most cards I've bought it's always an add-on option.
>
> What the tech at the vendor mentioned was beyond just battery  
> backup. Supposedly they have an algorithm that safeguards the  
> data... supposedly better than just the run off the mill backup. I  
> will as the tech if it's ok to quote his email.. he explained it  
> better. :-)

Interesting.  Please do- it sounds cool...

>
>> The 3Ware card battery add-on option fits on the card itself,  
>> which  I'd say is a consideration for a 1u system.
>
> I think the PCI next to the card would be pretty tight after adding  
> the add-on.

Yeah- I'm trying to figure out where in my 1u boxes I could put the  
thing...

>
>> /me doesn't trust any vendor or sales engineer until I live with  
>> it  for a few years...
>
> I think most people won't really be able to test most of the  
> differences.. I don't know other places, but where I work thinks  
> like "test", "benchmark".. don't get much priority.. All I hear is  
> "when will the machine be ready".. Lucky for me we recently had a  
> machine die on the second day so I use that now as a reference as  
> to why I like to keep the machine for a few days without doing much  
> real work on it.. I would hate to spend a day or two setting up a  
> machine for production to then have it die and have to return it.

Gah.  Reality strikes.

On Dec 31, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> Isaac Levy writes:
>
>> http://www.freebsd.org/releases/6.0R/hardware-i386.html
>
> The SX cards were not supported at release.
> If memory serves me well AMCC did spanking new drivers for the SX  
> series whereas they were sharing drivers from older versions for  
> the 9500.

It's all making more sense to me now...

>
> The list of supported cards/OS is a bit convoluted

HELL YES it is.

Big picture question, aside from the NYC*BUG dmesg database, how  
could we proactively make this situation better?

>
> With any luck you will be able to use the same drivers.
>> This is worth a shot, that is now in my queue to try Monday  
>> afternoon  when I'm back with the hardware.
>
> Hope it works.

Thx- Me too! :)

>
> As for the CPU difference, I think it is a possible factor, but  
> given that we are using different drivers altogether I would not  
> say it's very conclusive.. specially since I started out with 5.4  
> and binaries from AMCC.

Agreed.

>
> Did you try the questions list or the hardware list? Also AMCC  
> seems to be responsive to FreeBSD questions. May be worth a shot  
> trying to contact them

No- but now I feel I've fully done my share to deserve to hit both of  
those resources.
That is now in my Monday Afternoon Queue as well...

Thanks again for all this info Francisco!

Rocket-
.ike





From lists  Sat Dec 31 13:27:37 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:27:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136051520.433752.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<931E78FC-4883-4C5C-9D19-9FB26F7F5BB6@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136053657.621217.28540.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> Hey Francisco,
> 
> Thanks for hanging with me on this thread- it's providing me with a  
> lot of good insight man.

My pleasure.

>> I thik you would need to do a 6 Stable ISO disk... which I didn't  
>> know how to do, so followed AMCCs instructions. Installed 5.4, then  
>> loaded module from floppy... then upgraded to 6 stable.
> 
> OUCH OUCH OUCH.  I can't do this for production webservers, I just  
> can't.

I thought this was a new machine. Isn't it?

> Big picture question, aside from the NYC*BUG dmesg database, how  
> could we proactively make this situation better?

Support vendors that support FreeBSD.
The company we bought from, http://www.siliconmechanics.com/, are familiar 
with FreeBSD and we explained in pretty definite terms that we were going 
to use it with FreeBSD. The burden was on them to give us a system that 
worked with FreeBSD. 

When we got stuck we called them and they did some leg 
work for us to refine the instructions from AMCC so we could get the machine 
to work. If we had have to do the research all on our own it would have been 
a different story. They setup a simmilar machine to what we got, tested our 
problem, replicated it and wrote back to us when they had specific 
instructions on what needed to be done.


> That is now in my Monday Afternoon Queue as well...

Those lists are NOT as responsive as this list.. best to seed your question 
NOW.. to give it time before tuesday (are you actually working monday? :-).. 

I shouldn't be saying anything about monday.. I asked the owner if we needed 
to come on monday and his phrase was "you don't have to come, but would be 
very helpfull"... He is really a great person so I will go.. we have lots of 
pending projects trying to get finished.



From lists  Sat Dec 31 13:46:16 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:46:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d doesn't run
Message-ID: <cone.1136054776.294742.28930.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Tried the questions list.. but zero response so far..
Last issue before this machine goes in production. :-( 

--
I have one script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d that doesn't run. Any ideas why?
It is marked as executable

ls -l /usr/local/etc/rc.d/
-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   441B Dec 30 20:36 start-program.sh


The script is just:

#!/bin/sh

log="/var/log/program.log"
echo ----------------->>$log
/bin/date >>$log
echo Entering program.sh >>$log

case "$1" in
       start)
               echo Starting program
               echo ================= >>$log
               echo Starting program >>$log
               /home/root/bin/archivec.pl >> $log
               echo beyond program call >> $log
               ;;
       stop)
               echo No Stopping procedure yet
               ;;
       *)
               echo Need parameter
               echo Valid parameter: start
               ;;
esac

--
All the echo are just debuggin tools.. It seems the script simply doesn't 
run.




From dan  Sat Dec 31 13:52:27 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:52:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d doesn't run
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136054776.294742.28930.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <43B68D1B.31198.1A1855C5@dan.langille.org>

On 31 Dec 2005 at 13:46, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> I have one script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d that doesn't run. Any ideas why?
> It is marked as executable
> 
> ls -l /usr/local/etc/rc.d/
> -r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   441B Dec 30 20:36 start-program.sh

+x and .sh extension is all that's needed AFAIK.

> 
> 
> The script is just:
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> 
> log="/var/log/program.log"

What are the permissions on that file?  Does it exist?

> echo ----------------->>$log
> /bin/date >>$log
> echo Entering program.sh >>$log
> 
> case "$1" in
>        start)
>                echo Starting program
>                echo ================= >>$log
>                echo Starting program >>$log
>                /home/root/bin/archivec.pl >> $log
>                echo beyond program call >> $log
>                ;;
>        stop)
>                echo No Stopping procedure yet
>                ;;
>        *)
>                echo Need parameter
>                echo Valid parameter: start
>                ;;
> esac
> 
> --
> All the echo are just debuggin tools.. It seems the script simply doesn't 
> run.

1 - What makes you conclude it does not run?

2 - replace the script content with something smaller: touch 
/var/run/MYFILE for example.  Then compare the timestamp on that file 
each time.

3 - What version of FreeBSD?  Perhaps you need something in 
/etc/rc.conf to allow this script to run.  I'm thinking of 
postgresql_enable="YES" for example.

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From ike  Sat Dec 31 14:15:52 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:15:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
In-Reply-To: <cone.1136053657.621217.28540.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136051520.433752.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<931E78FC-4883-4C5C-9D19-9FB26F7F5BB6@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136053657.621217.28540.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <B55E57C8-CEAB-4827-9F71-C6B9CB29AF74@lesmuug.org>

Word,

On Dec 31, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Isaac Levy writes:
>
>> Hey Francisco,
>> Thanks for hanging with me on this thread- it's providing me with  
>> a  lot of good insight man.
>
> My pleasure.
>
>>> I thik you would need to do a 6 Stable ISO disk... which I  
>>> didn't  know how to do, so followed AMCCs instructions. Installed  
>>> 5.4, then  loaded module from floppy... then upgraded to 6 stable.
>> OUCH OUCH OUCH.  I can't do this for production webservers, I  
>> just  can't.
>
> I thought this was a new machine. Isn't it?

Yes, the machines are new, but everything except the RAID card is  
identical to machines I've had in hard production for some time now.   
I have some slack for hardware failure in production, insomuch as  
these are Jailing boxen, so the jails are respectively backed up to  
each-other...  But they *do* need to be solid...

Again, using FreeBSD, the Adaptec cards are very very stable, but  
they are soooo 1995- slow, and wonkie in the features/mgmt arena...

>
>> Big picture question, aside from the NYC*BUG dmesg database, how   
>> could we proactively make this situation better?
>
> Support vendors that support FreeBSD.
> The company we bought from, http://www.siliconmechanics.com/, are  
> familiar with FreeBSD and we explained in pretty definite terms  
> that we were going to use it with FreeBSD. The burden was on them  
> to give us a system that worked with FreeBSD.
> When we got stuck we called them and they did some leg work for us  
> to refine the instructions from AMCC so we could get the machine to  
> work. If we had have to do the research all on our own it would  
> have been a different story. They setup a simmilar machine to what  
> we got, tested our problem, replicated it and wrote back to us when  
> they had specific instructions on what needed to be done.

Gotcha- their stuff looks like SuperMicro gear- so the FreeBSD  
support seems natural, (I've had great times with SuperMicro  
equipment for many many years using FreeBSD).

>
>
>> That is now in my Monday Afternoon Queue as well...
>
> Those lists are NOT as responsive as this list.. best to seed your  
> question NOW.. to give it time before tuesday (are you actually  
> working monday? :-)..

Gah- /me puts on a "hello my name is" namebadge...

> I shouldn't be saying anything about monday.. I asked the owner if  
> we needed to come on monday and his phrase was "you don't have to  
> come, but would be very helpfull"... He is really a great person so  
> I will go.. we have lots of pending projects trying to get finished.

Ha- :)  I forget when the holidaze are...

Rocket-
.ike





From lists  Sat Dec 31 14:25:50 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:25:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA
References: <0IRV00MIQ348JCXG@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<5E8A00E1-6618-466E-B733-0ABAFE275B62@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0512271437130.2138@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<cone.1136013688.918626.17871.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<2F3DAEE6-4005-402E-9F4F-4760B98B4986@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136051520.433752.28433.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<931E78FC-4883-4C5C-9D19-9FB26F7F5BB6@lesmuug.org>
	<cone.1136053657.621217.28540.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<B55E57C8-CEAB-4827-9F71-C6B9CB29AF74@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136057150.658225.29317.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Isaac Levy writes:

> Yes, the machines are new, but everything except the RAID card is  
> identical to machines I've had in hard production for some time now.   

Is it up to 6 stable yet? Or still 6 release?
There were a number of RAID related changes in December.. some even related 
to a memory leak if I recall correctly.

> Again, using FreeBSD, the Adaptec cards are very very stable, but  
> they are soooo 1995- slow, and wonkie in the features/mgmt arena...

Are you disk bound on the other machines that do simmilar functionality?
Does vmstat shows high number on the "b" column?

If your boxes are not disk bound I would trade stability for features any 
day of the week. :-)

Do continue trying with the 3ware cards, but IF, you are not terribly disk 
bound.. give yourself a deadline by which you will go back tot he Adaptec 
cards.. if you don't give yourself a deadline.. someone else will. :-( 



From lists  Sat Dec 31 14:27:05 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:27:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Script in /usr/local/etc/rc.d doesn't run
References: <43B68D1B.31198.1A1855C5@dan.langille.org>
Message-ID: <cone.1136057225.293953.29317.1000@zoraida.natserv.net>

Dan Langille writes:


> What are the permissions on that file?  Does it exist?


Solved...
I took EXACTLY the same content of the script file.
Made a new file and it works.
Bizarre.. very bizarre.



From ike  Sat Dec 31 14:39:10 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:39:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] HEY KIDS! SPYING IS FUN! 
Message-ID: <00D05BE4-71BC-4927-84EB-7AA0D2EF9CE0@lesmuug.org>

Hey Everyone,

Another list I'm on posted these, it's fairly off-topic, but again  
relevant to conversations off-list.  Enjoy.

Rocket-
.ike


HEY KIDS! SPYING IS FUN!

National Security Agency (NSA)
http://www.nsa.gov/kids/

-
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/ciakids/index.shtml

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
http://www.fbi.gov/fbikids.htm

National Geospatial Intelligence Agency (NGA)
http://www.nima.mil/ngakids

National Reconnaissance Office (NRO)
http://www.nrojr.gov/

United States Department of State (DOS)
http://future.state.gov/

United States Department of Treasury (DOT)
http://www.treasury.gov/kids/

United States Department of Energy (DOE)
http://www.energy.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=KIDS

Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)
http://www.dia.mil/kids/interfacemx.html 



From ike  Sat Dec 31 14:59:38 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:59:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD.org Blocked in China
Message-ID: <3BFC1E2E-C31D-4186-8774-A9420A2B4D48@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Interesting side-news:

I don't have a conformation of this (elsewhere on the web?), but on  
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, it's been reported that FreeBSD has been  
blocked in mainland China due to the word 'free'.

Post is here:

http://tinyurl.com/74d38

-or-

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/ 
browse_thread/thread/373a712671521307/e9a7561496c19d52#e9a7561496c19d52

--
Related sidenote:  For those who don't know already, the Chinese  
govt. officially (and actively, to my understanding) supports Red  
Flag Linux, which seems like a fairly unique Linux distro...
http://www.redflag-linux.com/

Rocket,
.ike