From gstewart  Sat Jan  1 09:34:48 2005
From: gstewart (Godwin Stewart)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:34:48 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PCMCIA NIC on a laptop - RELENG_5_3
Message-ID: <20050101153448.10f646e0.gstewart@spamcop.net>

Hi all,

I hope 2005 has kicked off to a good start for everyone (once you've all
recovered from your hangovers :o) ).

So far on this laptop I've done a fresh install of 5.3-RELEASE, then
cvsup'ed RELENG_5_3 and did a buildworld/buildkernel. So far so good.

I even ironed out the "RTC running twice too fast" problem all on my very
own like a good boy who does his homework before crying for help, but here
I'm stuck.

My problem is WRT the PCMCIA NIC being brought back online when I wake the
laptop up from suspend mode or when I insert the device. "ed1" is indeed
brought back up but no IP address is assigned to it (each machine in the LAN
has a static IP, no DHCP) and there's no IP route to the outside. I have to
run /etc/rc.d/netif & routing start to get that back.

Before pulling the NIC:
flybsd# ifconfig ed1
ed1: flags=108843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
        inet 192.168.1.252 netmask 0xfffffe00 broadcast 192.168.1.255
        inet6 fe80::240:f4ff:fe3e:60d7%ed1 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2
        ether 00:40:f4:3e:60:d7

When I pull the NIC out:
ed1: detached

Shove the NIC back in:
ed1: <NETGEAR FA411> at port 0x300-0x31f irq 9 function 0 config 7 on pccard0
ed1: [GIANT-LOCKED]
ed1: Ethernet address: 00:40:f4:3e:60:d7
ed1: if_start running deferred for Giant
type NE2000 (16 bit)

Having put the NIC back:
flybsd# ifconfig ed1
ed1: flags=108802<BROADCAST,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
        ether 00:40:f4:3e:60:d7

So, I read the handbook and see that pccardd can invoke scripts upon events
such as the pc-card device being yanked or inserted - this looks just like
what I need.

pccardd isn't actually running right now, despite pccard_enable="YES" in
/etc/rc.conf (and yet *someone* is managing the pc-card buses right now
because the job is being half done). Furthermore, if I try and run pccardd
manually, the logs say this:

Jan  1 15:15:43 flybsd pccardd[495]: fatal error: no PC-CARD slots

And yet:

flybsd# dmesg | grep pccard
pccard0: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb0
pccard1: <16-bit PCCard bus> on cbb1
ed1: <NETGEAR FA411> at port 0x300-0x31f irq 9 function 0 config 7 on pccard0

Confused yet? I am!

What do I need to do to get my IP address and routing back short of doing it
manually each time?

-- 
G. Stewart - gstewart at spamcop.net

The sun goes down just when you need it the most.
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From ike  Sun Jan  2 22:54:24 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:54:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
Message-ID: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Quick shout out on behalf of my housemate, (a musician), he just scored 
a free computer and is looking for a monitor- does anybody have an old 
CRT sitting rotting in the closet that they'd like to sell?

Rocket-
.ike




From bob  Sun Jan  2 23:03:25 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:03:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>

On Jan 2, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Quick shout out on behalf of my housemate, (a musician), he just 
> scored a free computer and is looking for a monitor- does anybody have 
> an old CRT sitting rotting in the closet that they'd like to sell?

I two that my old roommate still hasn't picked up. If he needed them, 
he'd have picked them up by now (it's been like 4 months).  You can 
have them both for a beer if you can take them out of here.  He is a 
graphic designer, so they are pretty nice:

Mitsubishi Diamond Plus 200 (22", 20" viewable, .24dp, 1800x1440 @ 72hz)
Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 900u (19", 18" viewable, .25dp, 1600x1200 .. 
dunno what refresh)

I'm not sure if they have gotten misaligned or anything over the years, 
they're just sitting in the closet..

-bob




From ike  Mon Jan  3 07:05:50 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:05:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Yo Bob,

On Jan 2, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>> Quick shout out on behalf of my housemate, (a musician), he just 
>> scored a free computer and is looking for a monitor- does anybody 
>> have an old CRT sitting rotting in the closet that they'd like to 
>> sell?
>
> I two that my old roommate still hasn't picked up. If he needed them, 
> he'd have picked them up by now (it's been like 4 months).  You can 
> have them both for a beer if you can take them out of here.  He is a 
> graphic designer, so they are pretty nice:
>
> Mitsubishi Diamond Plus 200 (22", 20" viewable, .24dp, 1800x1440 @ 
> 72hz)
> Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 900u (19", 18" viewable, .25dp, 1600x1200 .. 
> dunno what refresh)
>
> I'm not sure if they have gotten misaligned or anything over the 
> years, they're just sitting in the closet...

Sweeeeeet- deal.  I'll contact ya' for the tradeoff...

Rocket-
.ike





From bschonhorst  Mon Jan  3 09:38:22 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:38:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
	<CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <1E6012CA-5D95-11D9-8263-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>


>
>>> Quick shout out on behalf of my housemate, (a musician), he just 
>>> scored a free computer and is looking for a monitor- does anybody 
>>> have an old CRT sitting rotting in the closet that they'd like to 
>>> sell?
>>
>> I two that my old roommate still hasn't picked up. If he needed them, 
>> he'd have picked them up by now (it's been like 4 months).  You can 
>> have them both for a beer if you can take them out of here.  He is a 
>> graphic designer, so they are pretty nice:

Hey Ike-

If Bob's roommate comes back for the monitors, I have a couple you 
could take.

Sony Trinitron Multiscan 17SE  (17 inch)
Viewsonic Optiquest Q95 (19 inch)

-Brad




From lists  Mon Jan  3 10:47:48 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:47:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <1E6012CA-5D95-11D9-8263-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
	<CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1E6012CA-5D95-11D9-8263-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <20050103104748.6b07e2fd@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:38:22 -0500
Brad Schonhorst <bschonhorst at vcsnyc.org> wrote:

> 
> Hey Ike-
> 
> If Bob's roommate comes back for the monitors, I have a couple you 
> could take.
> 
> Sony Trinitron Multiscan 17SE  (17 inch)
> Viewsonic Optiquest Q95 (19 inch)
> 
> -Brad
> 

When is the NYCBUG yard sale?
How about IRC-swapmeet?

-- 
---



From george  Mon Jan  3 13:18:22 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:18:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <20050103104748.6b07e2fd@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
	<CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1E6012CA-5D95-11D9-8263-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050103104748.6b07e2fd@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20050103181822.GA32562@run>

On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:47:48AM -0500, michael wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:38:22 -0500
>Brad Schonhorst <bschonhorst at vcsnyc.org> wrote:
>
>> 
>> Hey Ike-
>> 
>> If Bob's roommate comes back for the monitors, I have a couple you 
>> could take.
>> 
>> Sony Trinitron Multiscan 17SE  (17 inch)
>> Viewsonic Optiquest Q95 (19 inch)
>> 
>> -Brad
>> 
>
>When is the NYCBUG yard sale?
>How about IRC-swapmeet?
>

anybody got an extra ipod lying around? <chuckel>

BTW - Best wishes and happy new year NYCBUG members!

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From okan  Mon Jan  3 13:33:28 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:33:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <20050103181822.GA32562@run>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
	<CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1E6012CA-5D95-11D9-8263-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050103104748.6b07e2fd@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<20050103181822.GA32562@run>
Message-ID: <20050103183328.GC22859@yinaska.pair.com>

On Mon 2005.01.03 at 13:18 -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:47:48AM -0500, michael wrote:
> >
> >When is the NYCBUG yard sale?
> >How about IRC-swapmeet?

new app idea for nycbug? not sure how vendors might feel, but...
i still have a lot of "stuff" that is sitting, waiting to be given
away, without owners. what about nycbug swapd?

> anybody got an extra ipod lying around? <chuckel>

i'll let you know on that ;) - my gf might pitch hers.

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From unixenigma  Mon Jan  3 13:45:21 2005
From: unixenigma (G T)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:45:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <20050103181822.GA32562@run>
Message-ID: <20050103184521.41888.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:47:48AM -0500, michael
> wrote:
> >On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:38:22 -0500
> >Brad Schonhorst <bschonhorst at vcsnyc.org> wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> Hey Ike-
> >> 
> >> If Bob's roommate comes back for the monitors, I
> have a couple you 
> >> could take.
> >> 
> >> Sony Trinitron Multiscan 17SE  (17 inch)
> >> Viewsonic Optiquest Q95 (19 inch)
> >> 
> >> -Brad
> >> 
> >
> >When is the NYCBUG yard sale?
> >How about IRC-swapmeet?
> >
> 
> anybody got an extra ipod lying around? <chuckel>
> 
> BTW - Best wishes and happy new year NYCBUG members!
> 
> // George
> 
> 
> -- 
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator
> Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027
> mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce
> lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 

Let me see.....
I got one.
It has a 19" screen CRT screen.
A little bit bulky to carry on the subway - but sound
quality is a bomb! ;)
:D


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From lists  Mon Jan  3 13:43:47 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:43:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <20050103183328.GC22859@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <287C446A-5D3B-11D9-80F8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6AC98BD2-5D3C-11D9-8981-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
	<CF9B7D51-5D7F-11D9-A8A8-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1E6012CA-5D95-11D9-8263-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050103104748.6b07e2fd@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<20050103181822.GA32562@run>
	<20050103183328.GC22859@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20050103134347.0ef4a8fa@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:33:28 -0500
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com> wrote:

>what about nycbug swapd?
> 

Now you are talking!  


-- 
---



From george  Mon Jan  3 14:24:09 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 14:24:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Cheap/Spare monitor?
In-Reply-To: <20050103184521.41888.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050103181822.GA32562@run>
	<20050103184521.41888.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20050103192409.GA32627@run>

On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:45:21AM -0800, G T wrote:
>
>--- George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
>
>> anybody got an extra ipod lying around? <chuckel>
>> 
>> BTW - Best wishes and happy new year NYCBUG members!
>> 
>
>Let me see.....
>I got one.
>It has a 19" screen CRT screen.
>A little bit bulky to carry on the subway - but sound
>quality is a bomb! ;)
>:D


Now THAT is a big ipod!

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From spork  Mon Jan  3 18:02:25 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 18:02:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] hard error reading fsbn...
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501031759100.1829@oof.local>

Hi,

I thought I'd try here as this always gets mixed results on the FreeBSD 
lists.

I've got a 5 or 6 month old IDE drive in a spamass server that has started 
spitting this type of stuff out:

ad0s1e: hard error reading fsbn 4156992 (ad0s1 bn 4156992; cn 4124 tn 0 sn 
0) status=59 error=40
ad0s1e: hard error reading fsbn 4156992 (ad0s1 bn 4156992; cn 4124 tn 0 sn 
0) status=59 error=40
ad0s1e: hard error reading fsbn 4156992 (ad0s1 bn 4156992; cn 4124 tn 0 sn 
0) status=59 error=40
ad0s1e: hard error reading fsbn 12055631 of 3406344-3406366 (ad0s1 bn 
12055631; cn 11959 tn 15 sn 14) status=59 error=40
ad0s1e: hard error reading fsbn 13547159 of 4152108-4152112 (ad0s1 bn 
13547159; cn 13439 tn 10 sn 17) status=59 error=40

I'm thinking this is probably not a cabling issue (one drive on one good 
ATA-133 cable) since it's not doing the "falling back to PIO mode" or 
"resetting devices" which I've seen on other borderline failures.

Does anyone know specifically what "status=59 error=40" might be trying to 
tell me?

Thanks,

Charles

___
Charles Sprickman
NetEng/SysAdmin
Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net
spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344




From alex  Mon Jan  3 18:00:42 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 18:00:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] hard error reading fsbn...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501031759100.1829@oof.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501031800010.14929-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> I'm thinking this is probably not a cabling issue (one drive on one good
> ATA-133 cable) since it's not doing the "falling back to PIO mode" or
> "resetting devices" which I've seen on other borderline failures.
> 
> Does anyone know specifically what "status=59 error=40" might be trying
> to tell me?
your drive is dead. status=59 might tell some detailed information (track 
seek or crc error or etc), but the bottom line is, make backup of what you 
have and throw it away.

-alex




From pete  Mon Jan  3 19:45:24 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:45:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] oh boy!
Message-ID: <20050104004524.GA57538@finn.nomadlogic.org>

this looks kinda fun!

http://people.freebsd.org/~grehan/miniinst.txt

-p

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From unixenigma  Tue Jan  4 01:13:35 2005
From: unixenigma (G T)
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:13:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] hard error reading fsbn...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501031800010.14929-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050104061335.55903.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> 
> > I'm thinking this is probably not a cabling issue
> (one drive on one good
> > ATA-133 cable) since it's not doing the "falling
> back to PIO mode" or
> > "resetting devices" which I've seen on other
> borderline failures.
> > 
> > Does anyone know specifically what "status=59
> error=40" might be trying
> > to tell me?
> your drive is dead. status=59 might tell some
> detailed information (track 
> seek or crc error or etc), but the bottom line is,
> make backup of what you 
> have and throw it away.
> 
> -alex

Before throwing it away, maybe
try low-level format on it with the manufacturer
software and do test-through - I solved this problem
on 2 of my drives some time ago by doing this.

GT



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com 



From lists  Tue Jan  4 09:51:12 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:51:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <20050104095112.7c11d038@delinux.abwatley.com>



Begin forwarded message:

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
January 3, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Windows XP Pro: The Missing Manual, 2nd Edition
-Photo Retouching with Photoshop: A Designer's Notebook
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-Oracle SQL*Plus: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition
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-Home Theater Hacks
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----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-O'Reilly Happenings at Macworld SF--January 10-14
-Free Exhibit Hall Pass for Macworld
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Registration is Open for 2005 O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference,
  San Diego, CA--March 14-17
-Registration Is Open for the 2005 MySQL Users Conference, 
  Santa Clara, CA--April 18-21
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-"Make" Subscriptions Now Available
-Renewable Energy--The Next Opportunity for Silicon Valley
-Freedom, Innovation, and Convenience: The RMS Interview
-Ten Tips for Building Your First High-Performance Cluster
-Clever Tricks with MythTV
-Tim O'Reilly, Derrick Story, and David Pogue make the 2004 MDJ 
  Power 25 List
-Build an eDoc Reader for your iPod
-Book Worms into Minds of PC Cultists
-Windows Explorer Hacks
-Inside Secrets of MSN Desktop Search
-Towards Bug-Free Code
-ONJava 2004 in Review: Popular Articles
-Exporting QuickTime Movies with Simple Video Out X
================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
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For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html

Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, 
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----------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
---



From george  Tue Jan  4 11:41:03 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:41:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] which came first?  usenet or IRC?
Message-ID: <6C0DEA64-5E6F-11D9-AA62-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

 From  
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/01/03/online.underground.ap/ 
index.html about internet-based movie piracy. . .

<quote>

Members of these so-called ripping groups, also known as warez groups,  
have created a community referred to as "the scene." It exists  
primarily on the Internet's back alleys -- private Internet Relay Chat,  
or IRC, which is a precursor to the modern instant messaging software,  
or Usenet news groups that function like bulletin boards.

</quote>

Woah.

g




From swygue  Tue Jan  4 12:39:49 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f3050104093930b38a98@mail.gmail.com>

========================================================================

I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.

Here is my setup:

edit /etc/rc.conf
     named_enable="YES"             
     named_chrotdir="/var/named"    
     named_chroot_autoupdate="YES"

Generate rndc.key, create rndc.conf, place rndc.key in named.conf and rndc.conf
Create Forward zone, reverse zone, loopback
Place my named server in /etc/resolv.conf

Rebooted, then I tried the following:

hazika# dig

; <<>> DiG 9.3.0 <<>>
;; global options:  printcmd
;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached


hazika# /etc/rc.d/named stop
named not running? (check /var/run/named/pid).

hazika# /etc/rc.d/named start

hazika# ps -aux | grep 'named'
root     670  0.0  0.8  1620  972  p1  R+   12:21PM   0:00.02 grep named

hazika# netstat -an | grep '.53
Unmatched '.

hazika# rndc start
rndc: connect failed: connection refused

Some help please, it seems Bind is not running.


-- 
Rodrique Heron
Independent Network Consultant
(MS Window's Flavors, FreeBSD, Fedora)
---------------------------------------
pH:718-255-5876



From ike  Tue Jan  4 12:54:33 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:54:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f3050104093930b38a98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050104093930b38a98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0B26E34-5E79-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Rodrique,

On Jan 4, 2005, at 12:39 PM, swygue wrote:

> ======================================================================= 
> =
>
> I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
>
> Here is my setup:
>
> edit /etc/rc.conf
>      named_enable="YES"
>      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
>      named_chroot_autoupdate="YES"
>
> Generate rndc.key, create rndc.conf, place rndc.key in named.conf and  
> rndc.conf
> Create Forward zone, reverse zone, loopback
> Place my named server in /etc/resolv.conf
>
> Rebooted, then I tried the following:
>
> hazika# dig
>
> ; <<>> DiG 9.3.0 <<>>
> ;; global options:  printcmd
> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
>
>
> hazika# /etc/rc.d/named stop
> named not running? (check /var/run/named/pid).
>
> hazika# /etc/rc.d/named start
>
> hazika# ps -aux | grep 'named'
> root     670  0.0  0.8  1620  972  p1  R+   12:21PM   0:00.02 grep  
> named
>
> hazika# netstat -an | grep '.53
> Unmatched '.
>
> hazika# rndc start
> rndc: connect failed: connection refused
>
> Some help please, it seems Bind is not running.
>
>
> -- 
> Rodrique Heron

I've not run Bind 9, but worth a shout, I belive the command 'ndc  
start' (or stop or restart etc.) may do the trick.

The FreeBSD handbook is somewhat unclear on the topic, insomuch as the  
Bind 9 page, refers to '/etc/rc.d/named start',

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network- 
bind9.html


Whereas the big DNS page simply refers to 'ndc <start|stop|restart>',

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/network- 
dns.html



Rocket-
.ike




From gstewart  Tue Jan  4 13:00:08 2005
From: gstewart (Godwin Stewart)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f3050104093930b38a98@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050104093930b38a98@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050104190008.25c07567.gstewart@spamcop.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> 
> Here is my setup:
> 
> edit /etc/rc.conf
>      named_enable="YES"             
>      named_chrotdir="/var/named"    
               ^^^
Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?

BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If it's
the same address as your sender address then it's entirely unnecessary and
bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area where
you asked your question.

- -- 
G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net

Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
=ouRp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From mspitzer  Tue Jan  4 14:16:30 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:16:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <-8497110974695640236@unknownmsgid>
References: <-8497110974695640236@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501041116198dbb0f@mail.gmail.com>

how rude


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON at c60.cesmail.net>
Date: 04 Jan 2005 13:11:44 -0500
Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
To: mspitzer at gmail.com


The following message to <gstewart at bonivet.net> was undeliverable.
The reason for the problem:
5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 <gstewart at bonivet.net>...
GMail is unwelcome here'




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:11:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
it is also rude to correct someone in public when it can be done in
private, don't you think so?

marc

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100, Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> >
> > Here is my setup:
> >
> > edit /etc/rc.conf
> >      named_enable="YES"
> >      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
>                ^^^
> Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
>
> BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If it's
> the same address as your sender address then it's entirely unnecessary and
> bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area where
> you asked your question.
>
> - --
> G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net
>
> Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
> Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)
>
> iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
> fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
> =ouRp
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From pete  Tue Jan  4 16:17:14 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:17:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
In-Reply-To: <20050104190008.25c07567.gstewart@spamcop.net>
References: <cdb2c1f3050104093930b38a98@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050104190008.25c07567.gstewart@spamcop.net>
Message-ID: <20050104211714.GA29591@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 07:00:08PM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > 
> > Here is my setup:
> > 
> > edit /etc/rc.conf
> >      named_enable="YES"             
> >      named_chrotdir="/var/named"    
>                ^^^
> Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> 

also a check of /var/log/messages may yeild what error bind is generating on start.


-pete

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From george  Tue Jan  4 17:20:40 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:20:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501041116198dbb0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <-8497110974695640236@unknownmsgid>
	<8c50a3c30501041116198dbb0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DE2A02A4-5E9E-11D9-AA62-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 4, 2005, at 2:16 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> how rude

Following the top/bottom/vertical replies is difficult here, but it 
does seem kind of funny that someone would bounce gmail. . . I think 
Mr. Fence Post does their UCE filters. . . (sorry, inside joke)

*Not* that *I* approve that. . .

g


>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON at c60.cesmail.net>
> Date: 04 Jan 2005 13:11:44 -0500
> Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> To: mspitzer at gmail.com
>
>
> The following message to <gstewart at bonivet.net> was undeliverable.
> The reason for the problem:
> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 <gstewart at bonivet.net>...
> GMail is unwelcome here'
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:11:33 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> it is also rude to correct someone in public when it can be done in
> private, don't you think so?
>
> marc
>
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100, Godwin Stewart 
> <gstewart at spamcop.net> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
>>>
>>> Here is my setup:
>>>
>>> edit /etc/rc.conf
>>>      named_enable="YES"
>>>      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
>>                ^^^
>> Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
>>
>> BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If 
>> it's
>> the same address as your sender address then it's entirely 
>> unnecessary and
>> bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area 
>> where
>> you asked your question.
>>
>> - --
>> G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net
>>
>> Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
>> Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)
>>
>> iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
>> fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
>> =ouRp
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> _______________________________________________
>> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
>> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>




From pete  Tue Jan  4 22:54:32 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:54:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
Message-ID: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>

Hey nycbugers,
	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the 
possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is 
something I'm missing?

-p

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From louis  Tue Jan  4 23:01:22 2005
From: louis (Louis Bertrand)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:01:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.56.0501042259290.25635@grendel.bts>

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:

> Hey nycbugers,
> 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> something I'm missing?
>

Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).

Ciao
 --Louis  <louis at bertrandtech dot ca>





From pete  Tue Jan  4 23:10:19 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:10:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.56.0501042259290.25635@grendel.bts>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<Pine.BSO.4.56.0501042259290.25635@grendel.bts>
Message-ID: <20050105041019.GB639@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> > Hey nycbugers,
> > 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > something I'm missing?
> >
> 
> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> 
yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of 
system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is 
to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
can provision a group of servers.

-p

> Ciao
>  --Louis  <louis at bertrandtech dot ca>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From george  Wed Jan  5 00:00:34 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:00:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <20050105041019.GB639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<Pine.BSO.4.56.0501042259290.25635@grendel.bts>
	<20050105041019.GB639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20050105050034.GD29576@sta.local>

On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:10:19PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
>> 
>> > Hey nycbugers,
>> > 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
>> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
>> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
>> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
>> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
>> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
>> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
>> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
>> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
>> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
>> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
>> > something I'm missing?
>> >
>> 
>> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
>> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
>> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
>> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
>> 
>yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
>altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of 
>system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
>server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is 
>to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
>can provision a group of servers.

sounds like a good idea, less the ramp up time which no doubt be
recoverable after a few image mods.

Speaking from second hand info, and I've been paying a lot of attention
to these things, I don't think you'll see a performance hit. There is
another layer of abstraction with a jail but the "cpu" doesn't really
go through it, device IO does. I expect you'll see well under 1% cpu
degrade, probably closer to 0.1%, and maybe 1% IO degrade. +/- 3% on all
that. ;-) but seriously, I think any performance hit you'll see with a
jail will be squelched by the reality of HW cost and Moore's Law, for
that last 1% you need to buy new hardware every 6 months and if you're
doing that, you'll have a nice, actual, cluster in no time. :)

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Wed Jan  5 00:45:39 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:45:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year...
Message-ID: <20050105054539.GA31788@sta.local>

Thanks to a declaration by Poland and their
Undersecretary of State at the Polish Ministry of
Science and Technology, Wlodzimierz Marcinski,
at the EU's Agriculture and Fisheries council
meeting...

The Software Patent Directive, "computer-implemented
inventions" (ePatents) are out, for at least a year.

Join the 33K others and sign the thank you letter.
http://www.gnu.org/thankpoland.html


// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From lists  Wed Jan  5 07:28:02 2005
From: lists (=?iso-8859-1?Q? Michael ?=)
Date: Wed,  5 Jan 2005 13:28:02 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NetBSD on NewsForge
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1CmAGh2s01-0007oV@mrelay.perfora.net>


Nice coverage:
http://trends.newsforge.com/trends/04/12/22/1954233.shtml?tid=8&tid=29

This guys writes for OnLamp : http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/1777
and has a good BSD news aggregator: http://bsd.it/

Michael



From sunny-ml  Wed Jan  5 09:25:13 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:25:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200501050925.14080.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Tuesday 04 January 2005 22:54, Pete Wright wrote:
> Hey nycbugers,
> 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.

I have to admit, I don't see the security behind a single jail solution.  If I 
need to run httpd/maild/something-d whatever I run is going to touch XYZ.  
(In this case XYZ can be sensitive data, databases, etc).  Theoretically I 
already have a security issue by running whatever service/daemon/app.

The OS becomes nothing more than a management tool that provides for me to 
admin, provides the computing needed by whatever app, and the OS itself 
becomes a security risk.  That being said the host-OS must provide for the 
jail-OS which in turn provides for the app.  Each time you add an OS into the 
picture, I would assume it is another security risk.

(I'm thinking of data security greatly here, heh)

> Seems 
> simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> something I'm missing?

The only bottle-neck would be I/O and physical devices (hard drives).  But if 
you are only running one jail, then you have little to worry about.  Just 
remember to change the times the daily cron scripts run on the host and jail.  
It can become super painful and ugly when you have multiple cpu/io-intensive 
cron scrips running at the same time, heh

Sunny Dubey



From ike  Wed Jan  5 09:26:22 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:26:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year...
In-Reply-To: <20050105054539.GA31788@sta.local>
References: <20050105054539.GA31788@sta.local>
Message-ID: <C6542CC2-5F25-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:45 AM, George Georgalis wrote:

> Join the 33K others and sign the thank you letter.
> http://www.gnu.org/thankpoland.html

Pretty cool!  Would be sooo nice if we could see more of the sanity of 
this kind of thing stateside... (/me wonders how much money is 
absolutely wasted in the US in the obligatory patent wars?)

(BTW- my corp. just patented a thing called the 'User Group' if anyone 
is interested, I'm in the process of setting up licensing right now...  
Also patented a thing we're calling 'dmesg online' as well as a thing 
called 'swapd'. ;)

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Wed Jan  5 10:13:29 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:13:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <20050105050034.GD29576@sta.local>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<Pine.BSO.4.56.0501042259290.25635@grendel.bts>
	<20050105041019.GB639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050105050034.GD29576@sta.local>
Message-ID: <5ACDBB98-5F2C-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey Pete, All,

On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:00 AM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:10:19PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
>>> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey nycbugers,
>>>> 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
>>>> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
>>>> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
>>>> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
>>>> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
>>>> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
>>>> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
>>>> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
>>>> simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
>>>> any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
>>>> expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
>>>> something I'm missing?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
>>> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
>>> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
>>> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).

Yes, it's very similar in concept- (and a lot of these base concepts 
are the same from the earliest time-sharing systems), but from my 
understanding from the jail side of things, it's manifest in a somewhat 
different manner.  I believe the IBM VM systems manifest at a lower 
level that's tied closer to hardware, (ala hardware memory partitioning 
that IBM seems obsessed with for years here etc...)

It's pretty cool stuff, I must admit, but I'm fonder of the jailing 
model due to scale of operations I'm involved with- (small).  Since 
jail(2) is such a simple kernel call, and jail(8) is such a simple 
userland call, a lot of the application brawn that IBM puts into 
hardware (and oodles of low-level softwares to make use of it) is all 
in much higher-level stuff for jailing.  i.e. an app developer can 
write something in any language to manage jails, even just simple and 
solid shell scripts to run things.  Therefore I see the uses for 
jailing to be much more malliable, less developers can create more 
diverse and more flexible systems, on cheaper hardware- something I see 
more in-line with the actual needs of many 'enterprise' operations.

All about right tool for the job IMO.


>> yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
>> altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of
>> system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
>> server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is
>> to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
>> can provision a group of servers.

HECK YEAH.  That's what I'm talkin' about!  You could ostensibly run 
the images following similar practices for running diskless systems 
running from read-only drives...  (applying principles passed around 
from the micro-soekris world lately etc...)

The only thing that's necessary is a solid, fast, and redundant data 
storage backend for it all- which for the moment, in the BSD's, seems 
somewhat limited to my knowledge (NetApp and the like currently rule 
the mass storage scene right...)

>
> sounds like a good idea, less the ramp up time which no doubt be
> recoverable after a few image mods.
>
> Speaking from second hand info, and I've been paying a lot of attention
> to these things, I don't think you'll see a performance hit.

Speaking from first-hand and battle-tested experience, George is 
absolutely correct here,

> There is
> another layer of abstraction with a jail but the "cpu" doesn't really
> go through it, device IO does. I expect you'll see well under 1% cpu
> degrade, probably closer to 0.1%, and maybe 1% IO degrade. +/- 3% on 
> all
> that. ;-)

benchmarks are tough in any context, but I'll nod to these hypothetical 
numbers,

> but seriously, I think any performance hit you'll see with a
> jail will be squelched by the reality of HW cost and Moore's Law, for
> that last 1% you need to buy new hardware every 6 months and if you're
> doing that, you'll have a nice, actual, cluster in no time. :)
>
> // George

Yep, yep, and yep.

IMO, some of the real caveats and places to focus on would be in how 
the systems that manage the jails are setup and run.  For example, weak 
performance points in many contexts can be:

- starting jails, properly forked or multithreaded applications to 
start and manage jails would be really appropriate here- (I did a few 
childish experiments hacking with multithreading in Python, and used 
Jails startup as the subject for my experiments- in lieu of replacing 
shell scripts which started jails in a linear queue...).  The jail 
mechanism takes hardly any time or resources when starting, but 
starting the tree of processes for services the jail is running, can 
get a bit time consuming en' masse.

- management systems for jails, some currently nifty, and indispensable 
tools for saner jail management are in the ports collection, jtop, jps, 
jkill being most valuable to me personally- BUT, these are all 
basically Perl wrappers on top of the utilities they mimmic, and 
therefore aren't really that efficient when managing large numbers of 
jails.  In the context of what your talking about, some ports to 
something faster, [perhaps even hacking the source of top, ps, and 
kill, [kill(8), not kill(2) etc...], could be totally appropriate.)

- network or other centralized filesystem/repository speed and 
accessibility (nfs gives me the creeps in this context for various 
reasons- would love to see other ways for separate, abstracted, 'disks' 
to happen)

- the ever-present resource based attacks/failures scenario,
     - Memory Hogs and Fork Bombs, malicious or app bugs...
     - Disk Resource Restrictions
(The stuff that the lower-level rigidity of the IBM stuff aims to solve 
in some ways),
The above problems can be solved in various ways, but as it is with 
problems of this ilk, it always comes down to a balance between 
restriction and rigidity vs. security and stability.  For example, 
quotas or fixed partitions for jailed system, or even disk images for 
the jails can help mitigate disk based resource vulnerabilities, yet 
they create new problems in complexity and rigidity of management... 
(i.e. when x jail needs more disk space to carry out it's intended 
function, this stuff can all become quite cumbersome).

--
I blabbed a bit there, but in the end, all of it to me is less about 
actual resource consumption, Pete and George are both right with the 
assumption jailing performance itself is really a moot point, but the 
real keys to jailing performance lie in strategies for management.  
Balancing the increased complexity that comes with service requirements 
and usage contexts changing over time.  If the complexity is not 
thoughtfully designed and managed, and this increasing complexity is 
not anticipated from the jailing management application level, 
performance will simply go down the tubes in jockeying systems to cope 
with the life-cycle of their use.  (But in the end, it is this way with 
many things...)

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Wed Jan  5 10:40:06 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:40:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <200501050925.14080.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<200501050925.14080.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <13140A35-5F30-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Sunny, Pete, All,

On Jan 5, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Tuesday 04 January 2005 22:54, Pete Wright wrote:
>> Hey nycbugers,
>> 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
>> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
>> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
>> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
>> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
>> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
>> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
>> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.
>
> I have to admit, I don't see the security behind a single jail 
> solution.  If I
> need to run httpd/maild/something-d whatever I run is going to touch 
> XYZ.
> (In this case XYZ can be sensitive data, databases, etc).  
> Theoretically I
> already have a security issue by running whatever service/daemon/app.
>
> The OS becomes nothing more than a management tool that provides for 
> me to
> admin, provides the computing needed by whatever app, and the OS itself
> becomes a security risk.

This is indeed true for FreeBSD jailing, a Jail Exploit is something 
that any jailing sysadmin should plan for, (but sysadmins should 
likewise have contingency plans in place for SSH or even other serious 
show-stopping OS exploit, for ANY OS).

>   That being said the host-OS must provide for the
> jail-OS which in turn provides for the app.  Each time you add an OS 
> into the
> picture, I would assume it is another security risk.

Well, this model is correct for User Mode Linux, but not for FreeBSD 
Jailing- the Jailed OS's don't even have their own kernels, no direct 
access to memory, and highly restrainable device access.  (Does httpd 
for example need to care about access to dmesg or see all dev nodes?)

It's one of the tradeoffs and things which make FreeBSD Jails a 
virtualization which is sane in contexts where securely isolating 
mutually non-trusted processes is the primary issue at hand, and UML 
jailing sane when one's requirements call for multiple distros of Linux 
to run.

My understanding of Pete's requirements here are that the Jailed 
application be something which run a specific enterprise-level app, or 
suite of apps, and in that context the actual jailed system could be 
stripped down a bit based on the general requirements of the 
application- and the security, stability and performance of the overall 
system would be stripped down to just managing the resources that the 
application requires- a cost effective means to an end if it's managed 
thoughtfully.

>
> (I'm thinking of data security greatly here, heh)
>
>> Seems
>> simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
>> any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
>> expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
>> something I'm missing?
>
> The only bottle-neck would be I/O and physical devices (hard drives).  
> But if
> you are only running one jail, then you have little to worry about.  
> Just
> remember to change the times the daily cron scripts run on the host 
> and jail.
> It can become super painful and ugly when you have multiple 
> cpu/io-intensive
> cron scrips running at the same time, heh

Agreed- that's a really good example of the real performance issues 
when running jailed systems.  Thoughtfully managing complexity...

Rocket-
.ike




From bob  Wed Jan  5 10:40:57 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:40:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <200501050925.14080.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<200501050925.14080.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <318F2736-5F30-11D9-9DC0-000A9567635C@redivi.com>


On Jan 5, 2005, at 9:25 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Tuesday 04 January 2005 22:54, Pete Wright wrote:
>> Hey nycbugers,
>> 	I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
>> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
>> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
>> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
>> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
>> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
>> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
>> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.
>
> I have to admit, I don't see the security behind a single jail 
> solution.  If I
> need to run httpd/maild/something-d whatever I run is going to touch 
> XYZ.
> (In this case XYZ can be sensitive data, databases, etc).  
> Theoretically I
> already have a security issue by running whatever service/daemon/app.
>
> The OS becomes nothing more than a management tool that provides for 
> me to
> admin, provides the computing needed by whatever app, and the OS itself
> becomes a security risk.  That being said the host-OS must provide for 
> the
> jail-OS which in turn provides for the app.  Each time you add an OS 
> into the
> picture, I would assume it is another security risk.
>
> (I'm thinking of data security greatly here, heh)

If each daemon is running in a separate jail, then the security is that 
there is no way (assuming the kernel is not buggy, which you don't) 
that even a root exploit in one daemon can provide direct access to the 
files of another.  Of course, as you say, you probably can get at some 
important ports and passwords by exploiting httpd, because it is going 
to talk to the database.  Depending on the way the database is setup, 
those passwords might not be able to do too much damage to the database 
in the first place.

-bob




From swygue  Wed Jan  5 10:43:03 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:43:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3
In-Reply-To: <20050105142637.890D7A86DE@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <20050105142637.890D7A86DE@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f305010507431bf251a2@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Michael Madden and Peter Wright for your tips, I did check
/var/log/messages and there was some syntax errors which I fixed,
howerver I am still getting the error:

Jan  5 10:25:42 hazika named[3866]: could not configure root hints
from 'cache.zone': file not found
Jan  5 10:25:42 hazika named[3866]: loading configuration: file not found
Jan  5 10:25:42 hazika named[3866]: exiting (due to fatal error)


To make sure that I had this file in /etc/namedb. I deleted it and ran
this command:

dig @e.root-servers.net . ns > cache.zone

But I still getting the same errors.

Any more tips
--------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks


On Wed,  5 Jan 2005 09:26:37 -0500 (EST),
talk-request at lists.nycbug.org <talk-request at lists.nycbug.org> wrote:
> Send talk mailing list submissions to
>         talk at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         talk-request at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         talk-owner at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) (Marc Spitzer)
>    2. Re: Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3. (Pete Wright)
>    3. Re: Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) (G. Rosamond)
>    4. Jail Performance (Pete Wright)
>    5. Re: Jail Performance (Louis Bertrand)
>    6. Re: Jail Performance (Pete Wright)
>    7. Re: Jail Performance (George Georgalis)
>    8. Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year... (George Georgalis)
>    9. NetBSD on NewsForge (Michael)
>   10. Re: Jail Performance (Sunny Dubey)
>   11. Re: Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year... (Isaac Levy)
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> To: NYC Bug List <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:16:30 -0500
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> how rude
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON at c60.cesmail.net>
> Date: 04 Jan 2005 13:11:44 -0500
> Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> To: mspitzer at gmail.com
> 
> The following message to <gstewart at bonivet.net> was undeliverable.
> The reason for the problem:
> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 <gstewart at bonivet.net>...
> GMail is unwelcome here'
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:11:33 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> it is also rude to correct someone in public when it can be done in
> private, don't you think so?
> 
> marc
> 
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100, Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > >
> > > Here is my setup:
> > >
> > > edit /etc/rc.conf
> > >      named_enable="YES"
> > >      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
> >                ^^^
> > Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> >
> > BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If it's
> > the same address as your sender address then it's entirely unnecessary and
> > bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area where
> > you asked your question.
> >
> > - --
> > G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net
> >
> > Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
> > Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)
> >
> > iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
> > fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
> > =ouRp
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:17:14 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 07:00:08PM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > >
> > > Here is my setup:
> > >
> > > edit /etc/rc.conf
> > >      named_enable="YES"
> > >      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
> >                ^^^
> > Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> >
> 
> also a check of /var/log/messages may yeild what error bind is generating on start.
> 
> -pete
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net>
> To: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:20:40 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> 
> On Jan 4, 2005, at 2:16 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> 
> > how rude
> 
> Following the top/bottom/vertical replies is difficult here, but it
> does seem kind of funny that someone would bounce gmail. . . I think
> Mr. Fence Post does their UCE filters. . . (sorry, inside joke)
> 
> *Not* that *I* approve that. . .
> 
> g
> 
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON at c60.cesmail.net>
> > Date: 04 Jan 2005 13:11:44 -0500
> > Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> > To: mspitzer at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > The following message to <gstewart at bonivet.net> was undeliverable.
> > The reason for the problem:
> > 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 <gstewart at bonivet.net>...
> > GMail is unwelcome here'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> > To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:11:33 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > it is also rude to correct someone in public when it can be done in
> > private, don't you think so?
> >
> > marc
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100, Godwin Stewart
> > <gstewart at spamcop.net> wrote:
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> >>>
> >>> Here is my setup:
> >>>
> >>> edit /etc/rc.conf
> >>>      named_enable="YES"
> >>>      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
> >>                ^^^
> >> Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> >>
> >> BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If
> >> it's
> >> the same address as your sender address then it's entirely
> >> unnecessary and
> >> bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area
> >> where
> >> you asked your question.
> >>
> >> - --
> >> G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net
> >>
> >> Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
> >> Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)
> >>
> >> iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
> >> fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
> >> =ouRp
> >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> >> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:54:32 -0500
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> Hey nycbugers,
>         I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> something I'm missing?
> 
> -p
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Louis Bertrand <louis at bertrandtech.ca>
> To: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:01:22 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> > Hey nycbugers,
> >       I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > something I'm missing?
> >
> 
> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> 
> Ciao
>  --Louis  <louis at bertrandtech dot ca>
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> To: Louis Bertrand <louis at bertrandtech.ca>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:10:19 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> >
> > > Hey nycbugers,
> > >     I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> > > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > > something I'm missing?
> > >
> >
> > Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> > talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> > system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> > instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> >
> yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
> altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of
> system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
> server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is
> to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
> can provision a group of servers.
> 
> -p
> 
> > Ciao
> >  --Louis  <louis at bertrandtech dot ca>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "George Georgalis" <george at galis.org>
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:00:34 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:10:19PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
> >On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
> >> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hey nycbugers,
> >> >    I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> >> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> >> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> >> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> >> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> >> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> >> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> >> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> >> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> >> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> >> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> >> > something I'm missing?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> >> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> >> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> >> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> >>
> >yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
> >altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of
> >system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
> >server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is
> >to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
> >can provision a group of servers.
> 
> sounds like a good idea, less the ramp up time which no doubt be
> recoverable after a few image mods.
> 
> Speaking from second hand info, and I've been paying a lot of attention
> to these things, I don't think you'll see a performance hit. There is
> another layer of abstraction with a jail but the "cpu" doesn't really
> go through it, device IO does. I expect you'll see well under 1% cpu
> degrade, probably closer to 0.1%, and maybe 1% IO degrade. +/- 3% on all
> that. ;-) but seriously, I think any performance hit you'll see with a
> jail will be squelched by the reality of HW cost and Moore's Law, for
> that last 1% you need to buy new hardware every 6 months and if you're
> doing that, you'll have a nice, actual, cluster in no time. :)
> 
> // George
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "George Georgalis" <george at galis.org>
> To: New York City *BSD User Group <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:45:39 -0500
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year...
> Thanks to a declaration by Poland and their
> Undersecretary of State at the Polish Ministry of
> Science and Technology, Wlodzimierz Marcinski,
> at the EU's Agriculture and Fisheries council
> meeting...
> 
> The Software Patent Directive, "computer-implemented
> inventions" (ePatents) are out, for at least a year.
> 
> Join the 33K others and sign the thank you letter.
> http://www.gnu.org/thankpoland.html
> 
> // George
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:  "Michael" <lists at genoverly.net>
> To:  "NYCBUG Talk List" <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:28:02 +0100
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] NetBSD on NewsForge
> 
> Nice coverage:
> http://trends.newsforge.com/trends/04/12/22/1954233.shtml?tid=8&tid=29
> 
> This guys writes for OnLamp : http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/1777
> and has a good BSD news aggregator: http://bsd.it/
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sunny Dubey <sunny-ml at opencurve.org>
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:25:13 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tuesday 04 January 2005 22:54, Pete Wright wrote:
> > Hey nycbugers,
> >       I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.
> 
> I have to admit, I don't see the security behind a single jail solution.  If I
> need to run httpd/maild/something-d whatever I run is going to touch XYZ.
> (In this case XYZ can be sensitive data, databases, etc).  Theoretically I
> already have a security issue by running whatever service/daemon/app.
> 
> The OS becomes nothing more than a management tool that provides for me to
> admin, provides the computing needed by whatever app, and the OS itself
> becomes a security risk.  That being said the host-OS must provide for the
> jail-OS which in turn provides for the app.  Each time you add an OS into the
> picture, I would assume it is another security risk.
> 
> (I'm thinking of data security greatly here, heh)
> 
> > Seems
> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > something I'm missing?
> 
> The only bottle-neck would be I/O and physical devices (hard drives).  But if
> you are only running one jail, then you have little to worry about.  Just
> remember to change the times the daily cron scripts run on the host and jail.
> It can become super painful and ugly when you have multiple cpu/io-intensive
> cron scrips running at the same time, heh
> 
> Sunny Dubey
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org>
> To: "George Georgalis" <george at galis.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:26:22 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year...
> On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:45 AM, George Georgalis wrote:
> 
> > Join the 33K others and sign the thank you letter.
> > http://www.gnu.org/thankpoland.html
> 
> Pretty cool!  Would be sooo nice if we could see more of the sanity of
> this kind of thing stateside... (/me wonders how much money is
> absolutely wasted in the US in the obligatory patent wars?)
> 
> (BTW- my corp. just patented a thing called the 'User Group' if anyone
> is interested, I'm in the process of setting up licensing right now...
> Also patented a thing we're calling 'dmesg online' as well as a thing
> called 'swapd'. ;)
> 
> Rocket-
> .ike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Rodrique Heron
Independent Network Consultant
(MS Window's Flavors, FreeBSD, Fedora)
---------------------------------------
pH:718-255-5876



From swygue  Wed Jan  5 10:45:35 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:45:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3
In-Reply-To: <20050105142637.890D7A86DE@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <20050105142637.890D7A86DE@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f305010507454d9fe526@mail.gmail.com>

G. Stewart, I am not clear on what you are referring to. Reply-to
address is a default gmail setting.

On Wed,  5 Jan 2005 09:26:37 -0500 (EST),
talk-request at lists.nycbug.org <talk-request at lists.nycbug.org> wrote:
> Send talk mailing list submissions to
>         talk at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         talk-request at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         talk-owner at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) (Marc Spitzer)
>    2. Re: Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3. (Pete Wright)
>    3. Re: Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) (G. Rosamond)
>    4. Jail Performance (Pete Wright)
>    5. Re: Jail Performance (Louis Bertrand)
>    6. Re: Jail Performance (Pete Wright)
>    7. Re: Jail Performance (George Georgalis)
>    8. Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year... (George Georgalis)
>    9. NetBSD on NewsForge (Michael)
>   10. Re: Jail Performance (Sunny Dubey)
>   11. Re: Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year... (Isaac Levy)
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> To: NYC Bug List <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:16:30 -0500
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> how rude
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON at c60.cesmail.net>
> Date: 04 Jan 2005 13:11:44 -0500
> Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> To: mspitzer at gmail.com
> 
> The following message to <gstewart at bonivet.net> was undeliverable.
> The reason for the problem:
> 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 <gstewart at bonivet.net>...
> GMail is unwelcome here'
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:11:33 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> it is also rude to correct someone in public when it can be done in
> private, don't you think so?
> 
> marc
> 
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100, Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > >
> > > Here is my setup:
> > >
> > > edit /etc/rc.conf
> > >      named_enable="YES"
> > >      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
> >                ^^^
> > Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> >
> > BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If it's
> > the same address as your sender address then it's entirely unnecessary and
> > bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area where
> > you asked your question.
> >
> > - --
> > G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net
> >
> > Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
> > Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)
> >
> > iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
> > fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
> > =ouRp
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:17:14 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 07:00:08PM +0100, Godwin Stewart wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > >
> > > Here is my setup:
> > >
> > > edit /etc/rc.conf
> > >      named_enable="YES"
> > >      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
> >                ^^^
> > Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> >
> 
> also a check of /var/log/messages may yeild what error bind is generating on start.
> 
> -pete
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net>
> To: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:20:40 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> 
> On Jan 4, 2005, at 2:16 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> 
> > how rude
> 
> Following the top/bottom/vertical replies is difficult here, but it
> does seem kind of funny that someone would bounce gmail. . . I think
> Mr. Fence Post does their UCE filters. . . (sorry, inside joke)
> 
> *Not* that *I* approve that. . .
> 
> g
> 
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Mail Delivery System <MAILER-DAEMON at c60.cesmail.net>
> > Date: 04 Jan 2005 13:11:44 -0500
> > Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
> > To: mspitzer at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > The following message to <gstewart at bonivet.net> was undeliverable.
> > The reason for the problem:
> > 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'5.0.0 <gstewart at bonivet.net>...
> > GMail is unwelcome here'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com>
> > To: Godwin Stewart <gstewart at spamcop.net>
> > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:11:33 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> > it is also rude to correct someone in public when it can be done in
> > private, don't you think so?
> >
> > marc
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:00:08 +0100, Godwin Stewart
> > <gstewart at spamcop.net> wrote:
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:39:49 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I need some help setting up Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3.
> >>>
> >>> Here is my setup:
> >>>
> >>> edit /etc/rc.conf
> >>>      named_enable="YES"
> >>>      named_chrotdir="/var/named"
> >>                ^^^
> >> Unintentional typo while copying your config to e-mail maybe?
> >>
> >> BTW, please don't set a Reply-To: <yourself> header in your mail. If
> >> it's
> >> the same address as your sender address then it's entirely
> >> unnecessary and
> >> bad mannered in that it directs responses away from this public area
> >> where
> >> you asked your question.
> >>
> >> - --
> >> G. Stewart - gstewart at bonivet.net
> >>
> >> Mary had a little lamb which walked into a pylon
> >> Ten thousand volts went up its @$$ and turned its fleece to nylon
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)
> >>
> >> iD8DBQFB2tmoK5oiGLo9AcYRAoylAKDAa+PYjT/K4jxghyou+hWs4E9V9QCbB1Gh
> >> fg3uuQ11C4hONTN8Pnk5kJM=
> >> =ouRp
> >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> >> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:54:32 -0500
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> Hey nycbugers,
>         I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> something I'm missing?
> 
> -p
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Louis Bertrand <louis at bertrandtech.ca>
> To: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:01:22 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> > Hey nycbugers,
> >       I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > something I'm missing?
> >
> 
> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> 
> Ciao
>  --Louis  <louis at bertrandtech dot ca>
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> To: Louis Bertrand <louis at bertrandtech.ca>
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 23:10:19 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> >
> > > Hey nycbugers,
> > >     I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> > > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > > something I'm missing?
> > >
> >
> > Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> > talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> > system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> > instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> >
> yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
> altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of
> system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
> server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is
> to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
> can provision a group of servers.
> 
> -p
> 
> > Ciao
> >  --Louis  <louis at bertrandtech dot ca>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "George Georgalis" <george at galis.org>
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:00:34 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:10:19PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
> >On Tue, Jan 04, 2005 at 11:01:22PM -0500, Louis Bertrand wrote:
> >> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hey nycbugers,
> >> >    I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> >> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> >> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> >> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> >> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> >> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> >> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> >> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.  Seems
> >> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> >> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> >> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> >> > something I'm missing?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Just a quick thought, and note that I really have no idea what I'm
> >> talking aobut, but didn't you just describe IBM's VM operating
> >> system for mainframes?  I think they run multiple independent
> >> instances of Linux, each in its own virtual machine (hence the name).
> >>
> >yes it is sorta similar to partitioning hardware on IBM or Sun gear,
> >altho what I was thinking about was having a central repository of
> >system images, bundled with a specific app (say an apache tomcat
> >server) that can be distributed to a group a machines.  The idea is
> >to make administration easier and allow more flexibility on how one
> >can provision a group of servers.
> 
> sounds like a good idea, less the ramp up time which no doubt be
> recoverable after a few image mods.
> 
> Speaking from second hand info, and I've been paying a lot of attention
> to these things, I don't think you'll see a performance hit. There is
> another layer of abstraction with a jail but the "cpu" doesn't really
> go through it, device IO does. I expect you'll see well under 1% cpu
> degrade, probably closer to 0.1%, and maybe 1% IO degrade. +/- 3% on all
> that. ;-) but seriously, I think any performance hit you'll see with a
> jail will be squelched by the reality of HW cost and Moore's Law, for
> that last 1% you need to buy new hardware every 6 months and if you're
> doing that, you'll have a nice, actual, cluster in no time. :)
> 
> // George
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "George Georgalis" <george at galis.org>
> To: New York City *BSD User Group <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:45:39 -0500
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year...
> Thanks to a declaration by Poland and their
> Undersecretary of State at the Polish Ministry of
> Science and Technology, Wlodzimierz Marcinski,
> at the EU's Agriculture and Fisheries council
> meeting...
> 
> The Software Patent Directive, "computer-implemented
> inventions" (ePatents) are out, for at least a year.
> 
> Join the 33K others and sign the thank you letter.
> http://www.gnu.org/thankpoland.html
> 
> // George
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:  "Michael" <lists at genoverly.net>
> To:  "NYCBUG Talk List" <talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:28:02 +0100
> Subject: [nycbug-talk] NetBSD on NewsForge
> 
> Nice coverage:
> http://trends.newsforge.com/trends/04/12/22/1954233.shtml?tid=8&tid=29
> 
> This guys writes for OnLamp : http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/1777
> and has a good BSD news aggregator: http://bsd.it/
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sunny Dubey <sunny-ml at opencurve.org>
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:25:13 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
> On Tuesday 04 January 2005 22:54, Pete Wright wrote:
> > Hey nycbugers,
> >       I've been kicking around some ideas regarding jailing
> > in an "enterprise" environment.  While jails do have the obvious
> > benefit of added security; one thing that interests me are the
> > possibilities of using jails to assist with server and app.
> > management in distrubited envrionments.  The basic idea I am
> > thinking of is creating jails for specific applications that
> > get loaded to a farm of servers via PXE-TFTP.  One would netboot
> > a server, and then dist a jail to that system after boot.
> 
> I have to admit, I don't see the security behind a single jail solution.  If I
> need to run httpd/maild/something-d whatever I run is going to touch XYZ.
> (In this case XYZ can be sensitive data, databases, etc).  Theoretically I
> already have a security issue by running whatever service/daemon/app.
> 
> The OS becomes nothing more than a management tool that provides for me to
> admin, provides the computing needed by whatever app, and the OS itself
> becomes a security risk.  That being said the host-OS must provide for the
> jail-OS which in turn provides for the app.  Each time you add an OS into the
> picture, I would assume it is another security risk.
> 
> (I'm thinking of data security greatly here, heh)
> 
> > Seems
> > simple enough...but what about performance.  Has anyone noticed
> > any significant performance bottlenecks w/in jails.  I would not
> > expect any, and have not seen any either.  But maybe there is
> > something I'm missing?
> 
> The only bottle-neck would be I/O and physical devices (hard drives).  But if
> you are only running one jail, then you have little to worry about.  Just
> remember to change the times the daily cron scripts run on the host and jail.
> It can become super painful and ugly when you have multiple cpu/io-intensive
> cron scrips running at the same time, heh
> 
> Sunny Dubey
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org>
> To: "George Georgalis" <george at galis.org>
> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:26:22 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Thanks Poland, ePatents are out, for a year...
> On Jan 5, 2005, at 12:45 AM, George Georgalis wrote:
> 
> > Join the 33K others and sign the thank you letter.
> > http://www.gnu.org/thankpoland.html
> 
> Pretty cool!  Would be sooo nice if we could see more of the sanity of
> this kind of thing stateside... (/me wonders how much money is
> absolutely wasted in the US in the obligatory patent wars?)
> 
> (BTW- my corp. just patented a thing called the 'User Group' if anyone
> is interested, I'm in the process of setting up licensing right now...
> Also patented a thing we're calling 'dmesg online' as well as a thing
> called 'swapd'. ;)
> 
> Rocket-
> .ike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Rodrique Heron
Independent Network Consultant
(MS Window's Flavors, FreeBSD, Fedora)
---------------------------------------
pH:718-255-5876



From ike  Wed Jan  5 10:48:02 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:48:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <318F2736-5F30-11D9-9DC0-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<200501050925.14080.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<318F2736-5F30-11D9-9DC0-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <2E7529E0-5F31-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 5, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> If each daemon is running in a separate jail, then the security is 
> that there is no way (assuming the kernel is not buggy, which you 
> don't)

Right on the mark, stated simpler than my rant.  If one has kernel 
issues, then one has way more serious issues to worry about...

Question for Sunny:

- What happens if a UML instance has a buggy/exploitable kernel?  How 
or is it contained?  I'm just curious...

Rocket-
.ike




From mikel.king  Wed Jan  5 11:36:26 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 11:36:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Bind 9.3.0 on FreeBSD 5.3
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f305010507454d9fe526@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050105142637.890D7A86DE@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305010507454d9fe526@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41DC178A.6060707@ocsny.com>



swygue wrote:

>G. Stewart, I am not clear on what you are referring to. Reply-to
>address is a default gmail setting.
>  
>
>  
>

Absolutely correct and you can't even turn it off, only over ride it 
with another address.



Rodrique,

    I passed the pdf on to the main office...cheers,

m!



From mikel.king  Wed Jan  5 21:41:48 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:41:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] c3 expo @ javits....
Message-ID: <41DCA56C.3080109@ocsny.com>

  *C3 EXPO 2005 Call For Papers*
Deadline: January 25, 2005

c3 = (Corporate & Channel, Computing)

In any event somehow I am on their mailing list and normally I wouldn't 
care. But as I was half heartedly skimming the message; I had this 
thought because one of the Seminar Topic Headings is 'OPEN SOURCE 
COMPUTING' And well I thought that maybe some of us could pool our 
collective knowledge and write a kick ass seminar or two (yeah I know 
it's short notice but we do have until Jan 25) and if we are lucky get 
selected to present it? I mean this could be a really good photo op for 
the BSD world.

So if anyone is interested contact me off list, and we'll tqm some ideas.

-- 

Cheers,
Mikel King
Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
39 West Fourteenth Street
Second Floor
New York, NY 10011
http://www.ocsny.com
t: 212.727.2100x132
+------------------------------------------+
You may like them. You will see. You may
like them in a tree.
http://www.FreeBSD.org
http://www.OpenOffice.org
http://www.Mozilla.org
+------------------------------------------+
How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use
each other, but optimists help each other.
Collaboration feeds your spirit, while
competition only stokes your ego. You'll
find the best way to get along.
+------------------------------------------+

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From okan  Thu Jan  6 01:15:39 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 01:15:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] token question from meeting...
Message-ID: <20050106061539.GA66962@yinaska.pair.com>

george and i were talking about open source-based token based
systems, and well, since it was also a question last night, i'm
posting...

i remember looking into this a while ago, and recall that the API
is open for x9.9, so getting 2 factor auth with an open source
solution seems highly likely. the cost really comes down to management
and the tokens.

i can validate that x9.9 auth works fine with the software token
calculator, x99token(1), and yes, including ssh, at least with
bsd_auth(3).

so looking at x9.9 tokens out there, you can buy them individually,
but they can be expensive, ~$350, plus probably some sort of device
to initialize it (one per install-base obviously). i'm sure bulk
may get you better prices.

in the past, i've thought about getting one, or using some sort of
hack for token-based s/key, but never took it anywhere. tonight
sparked my interest once again. so, a long shot here, but does
anyone have any x9.9 tokens sitting around anywhere? i can't mess
with my sole securid card, for it's not really "mine".

if not, i may be interested in a joint project to validate a few
vendor's x9.9 token implementations, if anyone else finds value.
my current clients are on both extremes - either want to pay crap
loads of money for securid, or the other side - barely understand
one factor auth ;) so my immediate needs are personal.

okan

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From nycbug  Thu Jan  6 07:40:05 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 07:40:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: token question from meeting...
In-Reply-To: <20050106061539.GA66962@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <20050106061539.GA66962@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20050106124005.GA32135@florian.hastek.net>

Okan Demirmen:
t x9.9 tokens out there, you can buy them individually,
> but they can be expensive, ~$350, plus probably some sort of device

~$350 sounds high IIRC... I know a reseller that might do better..
please contact me off list, if you'd like me to check on it later
this morning..

Cheers!
-Harold






From sunny-ml  Thu Jan  6 08:33:45 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 08:33:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail Performance
In-Reply-To: <2E7529E0-5F31-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050105035432.GA639@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<318F2736-5F30-11D9-9DC0-000A9567635C@redivi.com>
	<2E7529E0-5F31-11D9-8CFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200501060833.46222.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 05 January 2005 10:48, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Question for Sunny:
>
> - What happens if a UML instance has a buggy/exploitable kernel?  How
> or is it contained?  I'm just curious...

The UML kernel is run like any other process is.  So if I ran a UML kernel 
with the user USER1 and there was a local root exploit in the kernel, 
theoretically I could exploit the UML kernel and gain whatever privs USER1 
has on the host-OS.

(Well that is how it should work ... various compatibility bugs have prevented 
the above from happening in the past.  The intention is to *remove* these 
bugs.)

Sunny Dubey



From steve  Thu Jan  6 10:21:21 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 10:21:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] add ons ideas from last nights meeting/presentation
Message-ID: <41DD5771.9090803@n2sw.com>

there are a few things that all should be aware of, that were not 
mentioned last night at all

for starters checksum your /etc/passwd /etc/group /etc/shadow 
/usr/bin/su and other important files on a daily basis, you might not 
notice any changes in these files.

also for any networking equipment, including printers, turn off or 
change the snmp public and private stings, i can and have reconfigured 
networks and printers (HP is notorious for this) that were left with 
private and the private SNMP community name

on a side note, it is possible to download your phone book if you have a 
bluetooth enabled phone. its been done.

for those of you that have bsd running at home and are not using it as a 
mail server, turn off sendmail, postfix or whatever, and start it every 
x minutes to flush the queue via cron, there is no reason to keep it 
running all the time if you are not receiving mail on this box, 
something like this in your cron tab should work */5 * * * * 
/usr/libexec/postfix -q

also omnicom/omnigroup (the second largest advertising firm in the 
world) uses freebsd almost exclusively now.
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From lists  Fri Jan  7 12:43:13 2005
From: lists (Francisco)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:43:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Simple sed question
Message-ID: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>

New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
Trying to convert:
### Text Text Text

to
###<tab>Text Text Text

or
Text Text Text

So far I have
/^[^0-9]/d
#deletes any lines that do not start with a number

Then for the actual replace tried several unsucesfull tries such as
s/^[0-9][0-9]* */^[0-9][0-9]* */<tab>/
s/^[0-9][0-9]* */ /<tab> /

Any suggestions?



From george  Fri Jan  7 12:57:27 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:57:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107175727.GD28364@sta.local>

On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 12:43:13PM -0500, Francisco wrote:
>
>So far I have
>/^[^0-9]/d
>#deletes any lines that do not start with a number
>

Can you rephrase the question? I don't see what that has to do with your
requirements?

also the yahoo sed-users group is excellent, you'll get good answers,
quick.

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From nycbug  Fri Jan  7 13:03:39 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:03:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>

Francisco:
> New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
> Trying to convert:
> ### Text Text Text
> 
> to
> ###<tab>Text Text Text


echo -e "Text Text Text" |sed -e 's/\(Text Text Text\)/\t\1/g'

Just a general example for the tab replacement part (it could have
many further permutations depending precisely what you need..)








From mspitzer  Fri Jan  7 13:09:17 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:09:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305010710091998c3b2@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:03:39 -0500, a nice bug <nycbug at hastek.com> wrote:
> Francisco:
> > New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
> > Trying to convert:
> > ### Text Text Text
> >
> > to
> > ###<tab>Text Text Text
> 
> 
> echo -e "Text Text Text" |sed -e 's/\(Text Text Text\)/\t\1/g'
> 

more of a sed job but I prefer awk

awk '{print "\t" $0 } '  file_name 

should work

marc

> Just a general example for the tab replacement part (it could have
> many further permutations depending precisely what you need..)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From lists  Fri Jan  7 13:16:38 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:16:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
Message-ID: <20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, a nice bug wrote:

> Francisco:
>> New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
>> Trying to convert:
>> ### Text Text Text
>>
>> to
>> ###<tab>Text Text Text
>
>
> echo -e "Text Text Text" |sed -e 's/\(Text Text Text\)/\t\1/g'
>
> Just a general example for the tab replacement part (it could have
> many further permutations depending precisely what you need..)


Of course it would help if I had explained that "Text Text Text" are 3 
unknown columns and not literals. :-(
Real data sample
506     AllianceBer Intl PremGr B     AIPBX   8.29    -2.13   -1.54
507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79


Basically what I am trying to do is to have only from the description 
onward.
506 through 509 have a tab
510 has 2 spaces
511 and 512 have a single space

The data is coming from OCR and basically I am cleaning it up in sed so by 
the time I get it to awk is in good shape. I figured out all the other 
cleanups this is the only one have not figured out. :-(



From george  Fri Jan  7 13:21:08 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:21:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>

On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 01:16:38PM -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, a nice bug wrote:
>
>>Francisco:
>>>New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
>>>Trying to convert:
>>>### Text Text Text
>>>
>>>to
>>>###<tab>Text Text Text
>>
>>
>>echo -e "Text Text Text" |sed -e 's/\(Text Text Text\)/\t\1/g'
>>
>>Just a general example for the tab replacement part (it could have
>>many further permutations depending precisely what you need..)
>
>
>Of course it would help if I had explained that "Text Text Text" are 3 
>unknown columns and not literals. :-(
>Real data sample
>506     AllianceBer Intl PremGr B     AIPBX   8.29    -2.13   -1.54
>507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
>508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
>509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>
>
>Basically what I am trying to do is to have only from the description 
>onward.
>506 through 509 have a tab
>510 has 2 spaces
>511 and 512 have a single space
>
>The data is coming from OCR and basically I am cleaning it up in sed so by 
>the time I get it to awk is in good shape. I figured out all the other 
>cleanups this is the only one have not figured out. :-(

s/[ \t]*/\t/g

substitute, any combination of spaces and tabs with one tab character,
globaly across the line (untested)

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From lists  Fri Jan  7 13:33:14 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:33:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>
	<20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107133156.D27723@zoraida.natserv.net>

One of these days I will learn to always reply with the right ID to the 
list. :-(

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, George Georgalis wrote:

>507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
>508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
>509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79

>s/[ \t]*/\t/g
>substitute, any combination of spaces and tabs with one tab character,
> globaly across the line (untested)

  I don't think that's what I am looking for.
  If you substitute spaces by a tab then the spaces inside the description will
  be made into tab. For example "AllianceBer Intl PremGr C" should remain with
  it's spaces.




From okan  Fri Jan  7 13:46:20 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:46:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107184620.GA30986@yinaska.pair.com>

On Fri 2005.01.07 at 13:16 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, a nice bug wrote:
> 
> >Francisco:
> >>New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
> >>Trying to convert:
> >>### Text Text Text
> >>
> >>to
> >>###<tab>Text Text Text
> >
> >
> >echo -e "Text Text Text" |sed -e 's/\(Text Text Text\)/\t\1/g'
> >
> >Just a general example for the tab replacement part (it could have
> >many further permutations depending precisely what you need..)
> 
> 
> Of course it would help if I had explained that "Text Text Text" are 3 
> unknown columns and not literals. :-(
> Real data sample
> 506     AllianceBer Intl PremGr B     AIPBX   8.29    -2.13   -1.54
> 507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
> 508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
> 509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 
> 
> Basically what I am trying to do is to have only from the description 
> onward.
> 506 through 509 have a tab
> 510 has 2 spaces
> 511 and 512 have a single space

sed -e 's/^[0-9]*.[ \t]*//g'

okan

> The data is coming from OCR and basically I am cleaning it up in sed so by 
> the time I get it to awk is in good shape. I figured out all the other 
> cleanups this is the only one have not figured out. :-(
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From lists  Fri Jan  7 13:48:42 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:48:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>
	<20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107134450.A27829@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 francisco at natserv.com wrote:

> 507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
> 508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
> 509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79

Got it. :-)
s/^[0-9]*[<space<tab>]*//


I think 90% of using sed/awk is learning to master regular expressions. 
:-(



From okan  Fri Jan  7 13:49:16 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:49:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107134450.A27829@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>
	<20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107134450.A27829@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107184916.GB30986@yinaska.pair.com>

On Fri 2005.01.07 at 13:48 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 francisco at natserv.com wrote:
> 
> >507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
> >508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
> >509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> >510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> >511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> >512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 
> Got it. :-)
> s/^[0-9]*[<space<tab>]*//

heh - i just responded with something similar...but use "\t" instead
of <tab>:

s/^[0-9]*.[ \t]*//

okan

> 
> I think 90% of using sed/awk is learning to master regular expressions. 
> :-(
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From mikel.king  Fri Jan  7 13:46:17 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:46:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107133156.D27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>	<20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107133156.D27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <41DED8F9.7000705@ocsny.com>



Francisco Reyes wrote:

> One of these days I will learn to always reply with the right ID to 
> the list. :-(
>
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>> 507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
>> 508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
>> 509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>> 510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>> 511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>> 512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>
>
>> s/[ \t]*/\t/g
>> substitute, any combination of spaces and tabs with one tab character,
>> globaly across the line (untested)
>
>
>  I don't think that's what I am looking for.
>  If you substitute spaces by a tab then the spaces inside the 
> description will
>  be made into tab. For example "AllianceBer Intl PremGr C" should 
> remain with
>  it's spaces.
>

Hi Francisco,


I am not exactly sure I am following you requirements but from what I've 
gathered it sounds like this could be a task for awk.

Is the delimination between the # and TEXT a tab or space? If it is a 
space is it always the same quatity, making the columns?

If for instatnce it were 4 spaces you could do someting like;

cat {Your Ouput} | awk -F "    " '{print $1}'

If it were a tab then change the 4 space charaters to a tab and do the 
same thing.

Does this help?

cheers,
m!



From george  Fri Jan  7 13:56:15 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:56:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>
	<20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050107185615.GF28364@sta.local>

On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 01:31:21PM -0500, francisco at natserv.com wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>>507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
>>>508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
>>>509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>>510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>>511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>>512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>
>>s/[ \t]*/\t/g
>>substitute, any combination of spaces and tabs with one tab character,
>>globaly across the line (untested)
>
>I don't think that's what I am looking for.
>If you substitute spaces by a tab then the spaces inside the description 
>will be made into tab. For example "AllianceBer Intl PremGr C" should 
>remain with it's spaces.
>

That problem occured to me after I sent the message, I don't really know
what constitutes columns... neither does sed, I'd do additional passes
for additional cleanup.

sed -e '
	s/[ \t]*/\t/g
	s/AllianceBer.Intl.Val./AllianceBer Intl Val /
	s/AllianceBer.Intl.PremGrAd/AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd/
	s/AllianceBer.Intl.PremGr/AllianceBer Intl PremGr /
	' >outfile <infile

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From lists  Fri Jan  7 14:03:58 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:03:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <41DED8F9.7000705@ocsny.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>
	<20050107132917.S27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107133156.D27723@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<41DED8F9.7000705@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <20050107135940.N27829@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, Mikel King wrote:

> I am not exactly sure I am following you requirements but from what I've 
> gathered it sounds like this could be a task for awk.

I got an expression that worked.
Have been reading on sed/awk for 3 days.
So far this is the impression I am getting:
* Sed for when one needs to replace/delete text
* Awk for formatting and more fine detailed control

>From what I have read awk possibly can do everything that sed, does, but 
there seem to be some work that sed seems more "natural".. or more 
direct.. at least that's the impression I get on all my newbiness.

I am using "Sed & awk" from O'reilly, 2nd edition.

It's interesting that I picked the book just as a curiosity to learn more 
about these tools, and I see how many things I was doing with some MUCH 
worse methods..



From elric  Fri Jan  7 14:06:47 2005
From: elric (Roland Dowdeswell)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:06:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:21:08 EST."
	<20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local> 
Message-ID: <20050107190647.0E49837099@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1105122068 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
"George Georgalis" wrote:
>

>s/[ \t]*/\t/g
>
>substitute, any combination of spaces and tabs with one tab character,
>globaly across the line (untested)

This will intersperse tabs between all of the characters, because <atom>*
matches 0 or more <atom>s.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From mspitzer  Fri Jan  7 14:43:26 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:43:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:16:38 -0500 (EST), Francisco Reyes
<lists at natserv.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, a nice bug wrote:
> 
> > Francisco:
> >> New to sed/awk.. reading a book on them.
> >> Trying to convert:
> >> ### Text Text Text
> >>
> >> to
> >> ###<tab>Text Text Text
> >
> >
> > echo -e "Text Text Text" |sed -e 's/\(Text Text Text\)/\t\1/g'
> >
> > Just a general example for the tab replacement part (it could have
> > many further permutations depending precisely what you need..)
> 
> 
> Of course it would help if I had explained that "Text Text Text" are 3
> unknown columns and not literals. :-(
> Real data sample
> 506     AllianceBer Intl PremGr B     AIPBX   8.29    -2.13   -1.54
> 507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
> 508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
> 509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
> 
> Basically what I am trying to do is to have only from the description
> onward.
> 506 through 509 have a tab
> 510 has 2 spaces
> 511 and 512 have a single space
> 
> The data is coming from OCR and basically I am cleaning it up in sed so by
> the time I get it to awk is in good shape. I figured out all the other
> cleanups this is the only one have not figured out. :-(

The real question is how do you define the data into fields, what delimits
fields and what delimits seperate sub fields in a field.   from looking at the
data above  you have the 4 last fields and the first field are fixed
and everything
between them is field 2,  if that is correct then it is easy and not
nessarly a  regex
problem, and you can now turn it into a safer intermediate form(CSV
for example).
 
untested code:
awk '  { for( i=2 ; i< NF-4 ; i++) {
              tmp_2 = sprintf( "%s %s",tmp_2, $i);}
              printf "%s,%s,%s,%s,%s,%s\n", $1, tmp_2, $(NF-3),
$(NF-2), $(NF-1), $NF
}'  file

marc
  



> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Fri Jan  7 14:49:40 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:49:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107190647.0E49837099@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20050107182108.GE28364@sta.local>
	<20050107190647.0E49837099@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <20050107194940.GG28364@sta.local>

On Fri, Jan 07, 2005 at 02:06:47PM -0500, Roland Dowdeswell wrote:
>On 1105122068 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
>"George Georgalis" wrote:
>>
>
>>s/[ \t]*/\t/g
>>
>>substitute, any combination of spaces and tabs with one tab character,
>>globaly across the line (untested)
>
>This will intersperse tabs between all of the characters, because <atom>*
>matches 0 or more <atom>s.
>

You are so right! Great observation! Nice testing.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From mikel.king  Fri Jan  7 15:42:12 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:42:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>


>>506     AllianceBer Intl PremGr B     AIPBX   8.29    -2.13   -1.54
>>507     AllianceBer Intl PremGr C     AIPCX   8.29    -2.24   -1.54
>>508     AllianceBer Intl PremGrAd     AIPYX   8.87    -1.88   -0.67
>>509     AllianceBer Intl Val A        ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>510  AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>511 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>512 AllianceBer Intl Val A    ABIAX   14.91   5.59    9.79
>>
>>Basically what I am trying to do is to have only from the description
>>onward.
>>506 through 509 have a tab
>>510 has 2 spaces
>>511 and 512 have a single space
>>
>>The data is coming from OCR and basically I am cleaning it up in sed so by
>>the time I get it to awk is in good shape. I figured out all the other
>>cleanups this is the only one have not figured out. :-(
>>    
>>
>
>The real question is how do you define the data into fields, what delimits
>fields and what delimits seperate sub fields in a field.   from looking at the
>data above  you have the 4 last fields and the first field are fixed
>and everything
>between them is field 2,  if that is correct then it is easy and not
>nessarly a  regex
>problem, and you can now turn it into a safer intermediate form(CSV
>for example).
> 
>untested code:
>awk '  { for( i=2 ; i< NF-4 ; i++) {
>              tmp_2 = sprintf( "%s %s",tmp_2, $i);}
>              printf "%s,%s,%s,%s,%s,%s\n", $1, tmp_2, $(NF-3),
>$(NF-2), $(NF-1), $NF
>}'  file
>
>marc
>  
>
>
>  
>
cool, good work Marc... I like the concept...




From mspitzer  Fri Jan  7 15:53:36 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:53:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
	<41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:42:12 -0500, Mikel King <mikel.king at ocsny.com> wrote:
> >
> cool, good work Marc... I like the concept...


I really dislike TSV files, looking at it how the hell do you tell the
difference.

marc



From lists  Fri Jan  7 16:11:58 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:11:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
	<41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>
	<8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050107161158.0c3b5147@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:53:36 -0500
Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:


> I really dislike TSV files, looking at it how the hell do you tell the
> difference.
> 

Tabs, commas, spaces in text data files are like grapes on the grocery
store floor.  The can be hazardous but, can be avoided.  I frequently
look at text as data.  I have to deal with 3rd party files all the time.
I try to get them to use a unique delimiter like bar(|) or carat(^).  In
my line of business these are rarely used characters.

Good stuff on SED today, thanks.
Michael

-- 
---



From lists  Fri Jan  7 16:11:41 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:11:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
	<41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>
	<8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050107161141.2e556a73@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:53:36 -0500
Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:


> I really dislike TSV files, looking at it how the hell do you tell the
> difference.
> 

Tabs, commas, spaces in text data files are like grapes on the grocery
store floor.  The can be hazardous but, can be avoided.  I frequently
look at text as data.  I have to deal with 3rd party files all the time.
I try to get them to use a unique delimiter like bar(|) or carat(^).  In
my line of business these are rarely used characters.

Good stuff on SED today, thanks.
Michael

-- 
---



From lists  Fri Jan  7 16:11:50 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:11:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
	<41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>
	<8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050107161150.3268dce3@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:53:36 -0500
Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:


> I really dislike TSV files, looking at it how the hell do you tell the
> difference.
> 

Tabs, commas, spaces in text data files are like grapes on the grocery
store floor.  The can be hazardous but, can be avoided.  I frequently
look at text as data.  I have to deal with 3rd party files all the time.
I try to get them to use a unique delimiter like bar(|) or carat(^).  In
my line of business these are rarely used characters.

Good stuff on SED today, thanks.
Michael

-- 
---



From mspitzer  Fri Jan  7 16:27:14 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:27:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Simple sed question
In-Reply-To: <20050107161158.0c3b5147@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20050107124243.O27263@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20050107180339.GA36933@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050107131142.D27534@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305010711435c88e894@mail.gmail.com>
	<41DEF424.3000901@ocsny.com>
	<8c50a3c305010712537400e7f9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050107161158.0c3b5147@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050107132739e1fe54@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:11:58 -0500, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:53:36 -0500
> Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I really dislike TSV files, looking at it how the hell do you tell the
> > difference.
> >
> 
> Tabs, commas, spaces in text data files are like grapes on the grocery
> store floor.  The can be hazardous but, can be avoided.  I frequently
> look at text as data.  I have to deal with 3rd party files all the time.
> I try to get them to use a unique delimiter like bar(|) or carat(^).  In
> my line of business these are rarely used characters.
>

True and good advice.  But my real bitch about TSV is I can not look at it
and tell the difference, I can look at comas and count them easly at least.

And one of my favorate awk tricks for this stuff is:

awk -F delimiter '  right_num_fields != NF { print "ERROR" , RN, $0}' file
 
> Good stuff on SED today, thanks.

What stufff on sed?  I prefer not to use sed.

marc

> Michael
> 
> --
> ---
>



From george  Fri Jan  7 19:16:34 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:16:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] iMac & OBSD 3.4
Message-ID: <8E0FEF56-610A-11D9-907F-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Just got an old iMac from a client. . . the all-enclosed-in-CRT 
variety. . .

Can't seem to find any other OBSD disks at the moment, so I installed 
3.4. . . pretty straight-forward, as long as you're not dual-booting.

Remarkably simple. . . The only real difference, if you're not dual 
booting and are using MBR, is a few quick Open Firmware changes . . .

g




From pete  Sat Jan  8 13:29:59 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:29:59 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Imaging software for FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f3041223095020af3921@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3041223095020af3921@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41E026A7.9070803@nomadlogic.org>

swygue wrote:

>I want fast imaging program that works with FreeBSD like symantec
>ghost. Any suggestions ? Or can some one tell me how I can accomplish
>this task some other way. I would like to get one PC build just the
>way I want and copy it to the other PC.
>
>  
>
well i've found "dd" to be a very good imaging program for unix.  having 
g4u take that long does not sound right tho, perhaps some hardware is 
acting flakey?  as a side note, you do not have to build every FreeBSD 
app from source, especially Window Managers and X servers.  Some would 
argue the benefits of building these programs from source is a waste of 
time when compared to all the headaches and time of building and 
maintiaing these large apps from the ports tree.  that is unless you 
really need to change some config., so for these types of situations i 
generally use:

pkg_add -r gnome

or what ever the correct package name is...

-pete






From george  Sat Jan  8 21:22:51 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:22:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Jail problem on FBSD 5.3
Message-ID: <5CE2B4FE-61E5-11D9-A344-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Didn't notice this coming up on Talk, but there seems to be a problem 
creating jails on FBSD 5.3:

http://lists.virus.org/freebsd-security-0411/msg00041.html

I experienced it recently, but the posed solution is working so far. . .

g




From george  Sun Jan  9 18:23:26 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 18:23:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: BSDCan - 4 months to go!
Message-ID: <76938632-6295-11D9-A344-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

 From Dan Langille. . .

Dan: I'll post to announce also. . .

g

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org>
> Date: January 9, 2005 6:18:54 PM EST
> To: announce at lists.bsdcan.org
> Subject: BSDCan - 4 months to go!
>
>
> Hello folks,
>
> Welcome to the first BSDCan 2005 announcement of the year.
>
> BSDCan 2005 will be 13-14 May 2005.  There will be related events on
> the 12th and the 15th (of a social nature, for the most part).
>
> Paper submissions have been steady since the announcement went out in
> December.  This is a reminder that the closing date for papers is 19
> January 2005.  If you have an idea for a paper, please let us know.
> If you have suggestions for who you would like to hear speak, please
> tell us and we'll approach them.
>
> The FreeBSD project will be holding a developer summit just before
> BSDCan 2005.  We will be providing space for the developers and look
> forward to their participation in the conference.
>
> If your project is also interesting in meeting up at BSDCan 2005,
> please let us know and we'll see what we can arrange for you.
>
> In our next announcement, we will have updated accommodation costs
> and conference pricing.  We expect prices to be close to those of
> last year.
>
> Regards
>
>
> -- 
> Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
>
>
> To unsubscribe: send mail to <majordomo at lists.bsdcan.org>
> with "unsubscribe announce" in the body of the message
>
>




From dan  Mon Jan 10 12:45:52 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:45:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: BSDCan - 4 months to go!
In-Reply-To: <76938632-6295-11D9-A344-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <41E27900.260.82CF3509@localhost>

On 9 Jan 2005 at 18:23, G. Rosamond wrote:

>  From Dan Langille. . .
> 
> Dan: I'll post to announce also. . .

Can someone post to various websites as well?    e.g. bsdforums.org

thanks
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From mspitzer  Mon Jan 10 14:00:57 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:00:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1 day spam workshop, next friday 21-Jan
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501101100197dd89f@mail.gmail.com>

its in boston

http://spamconference.org/



From spork  Tue Jan 11 19:45:23 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:45:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>

Hi,

In the past one of the guys I've worked with has been pretty happy with 
the boxed supermicro servers.  They're basically a SM server board in a 
pretty decent chassis, so we order that, processors, memory, ZCR card and 
drives.

However I'm a bit intrigued by all the new AMD 64-bit stuff.  Since the 
next box will be doing a fair amount of Postgres work, that might be 
helpful if only by allowing more RAM.  Also looking at the prices on Xeon 
chips, AMD looks like a steal.

Supermicro doesn't offer any AMD stuff, so I'm looking for some general 
recommendations.  We don't want any homemade beige-box stuff nor do we 
want to pay a premium for someone else to put together some "it may work 
with FreeBSD" beige-box stuff. :)

Suggestions?  Our budget is OK, but not huge.  We're frugal but not dumb.

Thanks,

Charles



From pete  Tue Jan 11 19:55:35 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:55:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
Message-ID: <20050112005535.GA92790@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 07:45:23PM -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> In the past one of the guys I've worked with has been pretty happy with 
> the boxed supermicro servers.  They're basically a SM server board in a 
> pretty decent chassis, so we order that, processors, memory, ZCR card and 
> drives.
> 
> However I'm a bit intrigued by all the new AMD 64-bit stuff.  Since the 
> next box will be doing a fair amount of Postgres work, that might be 
> helpful if only by allowing more RAM.  Also looking at the prices on Xeon 
> chips, AMD looks like a steal.
> 
> Supermicro doesn't offer any AMD stuff, so I'm looking for some general 
> recommendations.  We don't want any homemade beige-box stuff nor do we 
> want to pay a premium for someone else to put together some "it may work 
> with FreeBSD" beige-box stuff. :)
> 
> Suggestions?  Our budget is OK, but not huge.  We're frugal but not dumb.
> 

I have had good luck with both Boxx as well as Penguin Computing.  Boxx tends
to gravitate towards the 3D world so you may not find exactly what you are 
looking for there...anyway they do have a decent 1U offering:
http://www.boxxtech.com/asp/1selectconfig.asp
(too bad it's an ASP page...but the gear is pretty decent for the price)

as far as penguin goes you get a bit more flexibility in options:
http://penguincomputing.com/products/servers/altus_opteron_1u_servers.php
(1U opterons)
http://penguincomputing.com/products/servers/altus_opteron_2u_servers.php
(larger machines)
I have build a backend/renderfarm with penguin gear and felt is really was
the best deal for the money.  They go with Tyan boards (at least w/ the athlon
procs).  I have had gear go down on me and the support was good and they got
replacements out ASAP as well.

Granted, neither of these guy's are BSD specific but I would not see any reason
this gear may not work on *BSD.


anyway just my 2 bits...

-p


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From paul  Tue Jan 11 20:14:09 2005
From: paul (Paul Dlug)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:14:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
Message-ID: <4356E302-6437-11D9-B72B-000D93491930@aps.org>


On Jan 11, 2005, at 7:45 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Supermicro doesn't offer any AMD stuff, so I'm looking for some 
> general recommendations.  We don't want any homemade beige-box stuff 
> nor do we want to pay a premium for someone else to put together some 
> "it may work with FreeBSD" beige-box stuff. :)

While I haven't ordered AMD equipment from them we've had alot of 
success with Iron Systems, http://www.ironsystems.com They have 
reasonable prices, big selection and best of all the fully support 
FreeBSD (in fact we were one of the first to run FreeBSD on an Intel 
blade server thanks to their help). They carry AMD/Intel 1U servers. If 
you want a sales contact let me know.

--Paul




From bruno  Tue Jan 11 23:06:37 2005
From: bruno (bruno)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:06:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
Message-ID: <41E4A24D.2010201@loftmail.com>

Charles Sprickman wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> In the past one of the guys I've worked with has been pretty happy with 
> the boxed supermicro servers.  They're basically a SM server board in a 
> pretty decent chassis, so we order that, processors, memory, ZCR card 
> and drives.
> 
> However I'm a bit intrigued by all the new AMD 64-bit stuff.  Since the 
> next box will be doing a fair amount of Postgres work, that might be 
> helpful if only by allowing more RAM.  Also looking at the prices on 
> Xeon chips, AMD looks like a steal.
> 
> Supermicro doesn't offer any AMD stuff, so I'm looking for some general 
> recommendations.  We don't want any homemade beige-box stuff nor do we 
> want to pay a premium for someone else to put together some "it may work 
> with FreeBSD" beige-box stuff. :)
> 
> Suggestions?  Our budget is OK, but not huge.  We're frugal but not dumb.

For sure amd64 is the way to go, they are only a few hundred $$ more
than Intel. I recently had a pleasure to setup up a few SUN Opterons 
(V20z), although not with *BSD, but close enough. They boot OpenBSD fine 
(32 and 64 bit), so FreeBSD should work as well. Two scsi hot swap 
disks, easy to take off cover, two giga interfaces, LOM, serial, usb, 
u320 scsi. And fast, very fast. They are a bit loud it seems, there are 
many cooling fans inside, but that doesn't bother me at all. They could 
be a bit more costly, but in case you are interested, they are great.

Bruno
-- 
http://www.loftmail.com



From alex  Tue Jan 11 23:50:05 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:50:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501111940370.1829@oof.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501112345180.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> However I'm a bit intrigued by all the new AMD 64-bit stuff.  Since the
> next box will be doing a fair amount of Postgres work, that might be
> helpful if only by allowing more RAM.  Also looking at the prices on
> Xeon chips, AMD looks like a steal.
Keep in mind that on 64-bit architecture, you will need about twice as 
much RAM to get similar performance as on 32-bit architecture. If your app 
requires 2G to get decent performance on i386, you'll need 4G on x86_64.
Prices on Xeon and AMD Opteron 2xx are very close. Motherboards are too. 

If you are looking for AMD just for the purposes of 64-bit-ness, consider 
latest Intel Xeon's ("nocona") chips, which are also x86_64. (I.E. 
whatever runs on AMD opteron x86_64 platform runs on nocona just as well).

> Supermicro doesn't offer any AMD stuff, so I'm looking for some general
> recommendations.  We don't want any homemade beige-box stuff nor do we
> want to pay a premium for someone else to put together some "it may work
> with FreeBSD" beige-box stuff. :)
> 
> Suggestions?  Our budget is OK, but not huge.  We're frugal but not
> dumb.
Get Dell SC1425 (nocona, dual xeon). They aren't expensive at all, if you 
buy minimum config and add memory and second CPU from newegg.

-alex




From sunny-ml  Wed Jan 12 00:21:16 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:21:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501112345180.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501112345180.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <200501120021.17460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Tuesday 11 January 2005 23:50, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> Keep in mind that on 64-bit architecture, you will need about twice as
> much RAM to get similar performance as on 32-bit architecture. If your app
> requires 2G to get decent performance on i386, you'll need 4G on x86_64.
> Prices on Xeon and AMD Opteron 2xx are very close. Motherboards are too.

can you explain why this is so ?

(I've heard some weird theories about 32bit to 64bit migration in terms of 
performance, mostly from Alpha users though ... )

Sunny Dubey



From bob  Wed Jan 12 00:36:26 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:36:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <200501120021.17460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501112345180.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<200501120021.17460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <E6E47FB6-645B-11D9-BA53-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>

On Jan 12, 2005, at 0:21, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Tuesday 11 January 2005 23:50, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that on 64-bit architecture, you will need about twice as
>> much RAM to get similar performance as on 32-bit architecture. If 
>> your app
>> requires 2G to get decent performance on i386, you'll need 4G on 
>> x86_64.
>> Prices on Xeon and AMD Opteron 2xx are very close. Motherboards are 
>> too.
>
> can you explain why this is so ?
>
> (I've heard some weird theories about 32bit to 64bit migration in 
> terms of
> performance, mostly from Alpha users though ... )

A 64-bit word has twice as many bits as a 32-bit word, so it has twice 
the storage requirements.  I'm not so sure that "twice as much" is 
really true, because not everything is stored as platform dependent 
words.. but in the increments you buy memory, twice as much is probably 
the best way to do it to be sure.  More memory is good to have, anyway.

Note that this is only relevant for applications that are compiled as 
64-bit, if you're running 32-bit code on a 64-bit processor you will 
have the same requirements.

-bob




From alex  Wed Jan 12 00:32:16 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:32:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <200501120021.17460.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120015380.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Tuesday 11 January 2005 23:50, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> 
> > Keep in mind that on 64-bit architecture, you will need about twice as
> > much RAM to get similar performance as on 32-bit architecture. If your app
> > requires 2G to get decent performance on i386, you'll need 4G on x86_64.
> > Prices on Xeon and AMD Opteron 2xx are very close. Motherboards are too.
> 
> can you explain why this is so ?
>
> (I've heard some weird theories about 32bit to 64bit migration in terms
> of performance, mostly from Alpha users though ... )
Yes my experience is also Alpha-based, on Alpha this is even more 
pronounced than on x86_64. In short, there are couple of popular ways to 
have 'basic C types' on 64-bit architecture, and all of those will take up 
more memory than on 32-bit (obviously)

LP64: Meaning "long" and "pointer" types are 64-bit. Since a lot of data
structures are pointer based, your memory utilization (for the same
structure) will significantly increase.

ILP64: (What Alpha uses): Your ints are also 64 bit. That pretty much 
guarantees doubling of space utilization, since int is the most frequently 
used data type.

In addition, if you have structs with members that are less than 64-bit, 
they will be aligned on 64-bit boundaries. If you have struct {char 
a,b,c;}, it'll take 3*32-bit space on ia32, and 3*64bit space on x86_64.

I may have mis-said when saying your memory utilization will double - it
won't. But it will be significantly higher than on 32-bit architecture,
and it is something you need to be aware of.

-alex




From alex  Wed Jan 12 00:38:38 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:38:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120015380.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120034440.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> In addition, if you have structs with members that are less than 64-bit, 
> they will be aligned on 64-bit boundaries. If you have struct {char 
> a,b,c;}, it'll take 3*32-bit space on ia32, and 3*64bit space on x86_64.
Mutter, it's too late in the night to do thinking, I'm wrong on this one.  
Struct members are naturally-aligned (i.e. alignment is to the data type's
own size, chars are not aligned at all, etc) - thus {char a,b,c;} will
take 3*8 bit of space on any architecture.

However, {char a;int *b;} will be 4+4 bytes on 32-bit and 8+8 bytes on
64-bit still. 




From pete  Wed Jan 12 00:59:29 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:59:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
Message-ID: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>

>From the news.com.com interview with Andy Hertzfeld:
http://news.com.com/How+the+Mac+was+born%2C+and+other+tales/2008-1082_3-5529081.html?tag=st.num

How would things be different for Apple if they switched to Linux from FreeBSD?

Technically that doesn't make much of a difference at all. Commercially...
The more free software on the system, the more alliances it would allow them
to make with companies like IBM, and some of the other open-source systems.

<rant>
ok since when does linux == free software...and more importantly isn't linux
just a fscking kernel?!?  and finally i really have no friggin' idea how he
makes the leap of a vendor *not* using the GPL preventing them from working
with vendors...aside from the marketing perspective.

sigh...who would have thought the guy behind such "great" firms as
Eazel would completely not misunderstand such basic concepts...

anyway it's an interesting read if anyone feels like getting worked up for
no good reason.
</rant>
-p

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From bob  Wed Jan 12 01:41:17 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:41:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <F66A7374-6464-11D9-BA53-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 0:59, Pete Wright wrote:

>> From the news.com.com interview with Andy Hertzfeld:
> http://news.com.com/How+the+Mac+was+born%2C+and+other+tales/2008 
> -1082_3-5529081.html?tag=st.num
>
> How would things be different for Apple if they switched to Linux from  
> FreeBSD?
>
> Technically that doesn't make much of a difference at all.  
> Commercially...
> The more free software on the system, the more alliances it would  
> allow them
> to make with companies like IBM, and some of the other open-source  
> systems.

The question's premise is kinda bogus to begin with.  "... they took  
FreeBSD and layered their proprietary OS on top of it to get some of  
the benefits of open source."  Originally it didn't have FreeBSD at  
all, it was BSD code they inherited from NeXT.  There is a lot of  
FreeBSD code shoved into the Darwin kernel and userland, but it's  
nothing anyone who knows what they're talking about would actually call  
FreeBSD.  Linux has *BSD code in it too, and we don't call that FreeBSD  
either.

I think that buying G5s as fast as IBM can make them gives them better  
footing than switching to Linux ever could... If they wanted to use  
Linux, they would have.  The microkernel they developed for Darwin  
derives from the work they did for MkLinux, after all.  IBM does  
support Mac OS X, especially their compilers and the Java stuff.

> <rant>
> ok since when does linux == free software...and more importantly isn't  
> linux
> just a fscking kernel?!?  and finally i really have no friggin' idea  
> how he
> makes the leap of a vendor *not* using the GPL preventing them from  
> working
> with vendors...aside from the marketing perspective.

The example he gave in another question is that HP and Sun both  
announced to use a particular standard related to Eazel, and he  
insinuates the reason for this is that it was GPL licensed.  Bogus,  
because they've done this before on things that weren't similarly  
licensed, but that's what he thinks.

> sigh...who would have thought the guy behind such "great" firms as
> Eazel would completely not misunderstand such basic concepts...

Great companies don't flop in less than 18 months :)

> anyway it's an interesting read if anyone feels like getting worked up  
> for
> no good reason.
> </rant>

I dunno, it seemed as good a response as any if you're going to dumb it  
down for the press.  Having cofounded a company that wrote GPL  
software, he's obviously biased in that direction and will see what he  
wants to see.

-bob




From tux  Wed Jan 12 01:52:44 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:52:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120034440.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <046d01c4f873$53096a70$0500a8c0@apollo>

: > In addition, if you have structs with members that are less than 64-bit,
: > they will be aligned on 64-bit boundaries. If you have struct {char
: > a,b,c;}, it'll take 3*32-bit space on ia32, and 3*64bit space on x86_64.
: Mutter, it's too late in the night to do thinking, I'm wrong on this one.
: Struct members are naturally-aligned (i.e. alignment is to the data type's
: own size, chars are not aligned at all, etc) - thus {char a,b,c;} will
: take 3*8 bit of space on any architecture.
:
: However, {char a;int *b;} will be 4+4 bytes on 32-bit and 8+8 bytes on
: 64-bit still.


Can someone hand me a mop and a bucket of warm, soapy water?  My head just
exploded after reading all that...




From ike  Wed Jan 12 06:32:19 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:32:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <F66A7374-6464-11D9-BA53-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<F66A7374-6464-11D9-BA53-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <9E6410F6-648D-11D9-9401-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Morning all,

Andy Hertzfeld's statements hit me like this little fictional analogy:

Not so long ago, in a place not so far away, a part-time anti-logging  
activist, who was lucky enough to grow up in privileged America- where  
things like Jobs and Food is plentiful, came to my South American rain  
forest to spike trees, and help stop clearcutting.  On the way he got  
all sorts of feel-good warm-fuzzy feelings from the trip, and perhaps  
truly believed he was doing something good for the world, but he was  
totally unaware of me- In this analogy I am an indeginous person who  
LIVES in that rain-forest, and *whops*, I tried to cut down a spiked  
tree and got seriously mamed.

--
Go Andy!  If you really care about what your talking about in Open  
Source, you'd shut your mouth and put your energy to good use  
elsewhere- (perhaps by getting involved and gleaning an understanding  
of how somebody in your position could ACTUALLY HELP open source  
development).

I'm urked because articles like this add to the white noise that hurts  
ideas and businesses carried by people who are actually WORKING today  
in the front lines of open source.

Andy, if you ever read this and are in the NYC area, I'd love to sit  
down and buy you a drink and explain my thoughts further.

Rocket-
.ike

--
BTW- todays AM coffee produced quite a rant below, perhaps valid for  
the archive, but there's a snip re. Mach/MKLinux for anyone interested.  
  Feel free to disregard it and move on to fun/interesting threads-  
insomuch as what follows really isn't doing anything constructive about  
this situation, it's just me ranting...




On Jan 12, 2005, at 1:41 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> On Jan 12, 2005, at 0:59, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>>> From the news.com.com interview with Andy Hertzfeld:
>> http://news.com.com/How+the+Mac+was+born%2C+and+other+tales/2008 
>> -1082_3-5529081.html?tag=st.num
>>
>> How would things be different for Apple if they switched to Linux  
>> from FreeBSD?
>>
>> Technically that doesn't make much of a difference at all.  
>> Commercially...
>> The more free software on the system, the more alliances it would  
>> allow them
>> to make with companies like IBM, and some of the other open-source  
>> systems.
>
> The question's premise is kinda bogus to begin with.  "... they took  
> FreeBSD and layered their proprietary OS on top of it to get some of  
> the benefits of open source."  Originally it didn't have FreeBSD at  
> all, it was BSD code they inherited from NeXT.  There is a lot of  
> FreeBSD code shoved into the Darwin kernel and userland, but it's  
> nothing anyone who knows what they're talking about would actually  
> call FreeBSD.  Linux has *BSD code in it too, and we don't call that  
> FreeBSD either.
>
[snip]
> The microkernel they developed for Darwin derives from the work they  
> did for MkLinux, after all.  IBM does support Mac OS X, especially  
> their compilers and the Java stuff.

To my knowledge re. Mach and MKLinux, I never worked at apple, but  
after hacking around with MKLinux years ago- I'd think that one reason  
Apple went with the BSD userland (and many other conventions), was that  
MKLinux suffered from a lot of higher-level components being kindof  
wonkie (Linux userland, which came from a lot of BSD and other more  
ancient stuff).
Basically without a Linux kernel, it wasn't technically even a Linux.
But back then, they seemed to be focusing on Mach development, so it  
didn't matter so much what the userland was composed of- they weren't  
'doing anything' with it yet- just development.  Once they went to  
start *using* the OS for products, it seems they simply went straight  
to the source with a lot of things to keep it clean and sane, much of  
what followed came from the BSD world and NEXT- (and this incidentally  
ends up being where there are actually a few completely synchronized  
source trees between FreeBSD and Darwin today.)

--
Re. Andy Hertzfeld, I'll agree with Bob, but perhaps throw in a bit of  
a cheap shot here, trendy Linux and GPL ideology is easy enough to tout  
when one has cashed in their Apple startup stock in 1984 :)  Andy  
obviously hasn't been involved with any tech. at a low level for a long  
time, and it doesn't seem he's really ever been around UNIX in a  
serious capacity- so I'll just write off his statements and not  
personalize this, as I can appreciate anybody who says:

"Maybe even a better word is love. You fill the product with love and  
then people will love it."

But I gotta say, Andy is being dangerously misleading here with his  
Open-Business and 'Apple should use Linux' rant.  I'd say he truly  
doesn't understand the industry anymore at this level, (and certainly  
not at a technical level).  In his criticism of Steve Jobs, and  
Openness, it seems he's not aware of nice moments where Jobs/Apple  
tried EXACTLY what he proscribed, years ago even, ala Open Firmware?
http://www.openfirmware.org/
As usual, when things work well, they become transparent and are easily  
forgotten...

--
With all that said, I still work my tail off for a living, and shut off  
when someone tells me ANYTHING about just HOW I should be free.  If  
it's free, aren't we free to be un-free with this freedom?  Does every  
good thing for humanity come from freedom?  Isn't the history of UNIX  
about open freedom before anyone ever uttered the words 'Open Source'?   
It's about the tech- it's about doing positive stuff- it's about  
hacking.

I also find it ironic when people who have been part of massive wars  
over propriety (um, the original Macintosh and Mac OS in Andy's case?)  
dive headlong into the GPL, (which I'll dare call totalitarian  
freedom).
Guess it's not too strange, since both of these seem to be stabs at  
some sort of control/power in the end.  Perhaps this need for  
control/power en' masse comes from anxiety produced by the increased  
speed and change that tech. brings with it as a side effect, and Andy,  
in this context, is simply advocating things that help keep a firm  
continuing grasp on technology, in order to maintain a firm  
understanding of the world around us.
The only reason it pisses me off is that his mis-statements directly  
and negatively affect my free use of open technology, and I don't know  
if it affects him either way.

General ike GPL rant:
Bottom line, (and a bit of a stretch here), is the FSF going to sue  
somebody for infringing on GPL code for something that thrives in the  
context of some closed IP market, yet happens to, say... save millions  
of lives in that context?  To me, no one ideal can be successfully  
applied to every problem, (even the BSD's).

Or, another example, what if I wanted to make a closed internet-like  
network of my own, starting in my neighborhood, perhaps.  Do I have to  
let everyone in?  Do I have to use tcp/ip even?  What if it 'succeeds'  
and people use the thing to some positive end?  I mean, if I'm having a  
dinner party, am I obliged to invite every one of my neighbors?  What  
if that would be prohibitive because I couldn't possibly cook/buy the  
same gourmet dinner for 100 people that I could for 10?  Should that  
stop me from having the dinner in the first place?  Hell no.

I'd argue that not everything done by committee succeeds, and sometimes  
an idea needs to live within the focus that a closed environment can  
bring to reach useful fruition.  That stated, closing any environment  
too much creates an ingrown environment that is bound to fail on it's  
own (digital security is an easy contemporary example here.)

I mean, the territory that purist GPL idealism gets into here is the  
kind of idealism that turns quickly into imperialism at the worst, and  
disrespect at the least.

*sigh*

On to perhaps more constructive thoughts-
.ike




From elric  Wed Jan 12 09:41:15 2005
From: elric (Roland Dowdeswell)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:41:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:32:16 EST."
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120015380.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com> 
Message-ID: <20050112144115.AA62B3701F@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1105507936 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
>

>LP64: Meaning "long" and "pointer" types are 64-bit. Since a lot of data
>structures are pointer based, your memory utilization (for the same
>structure) will significantly increase.
>
>ILP64: (What Alpha uses): Your ints are also 64 bit. That pretty much 
>guarantees doubling of space utilization, since int is the most frequently 
>used data type.

Alphas are LP64.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From dlavigne6  Wed Jan 12 09:47:37 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:47:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>



On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:

>> From the news.com.com interview with Andy Hertzfeld:
> http://news.com.com/How+the+Mac+was+born%2C+and+other+tales/2008-1082_3-5529081.html?tag=st.num
>
> How would things be different for Apple if they switched to Linux from FreeBSD?
>
> Technically that doesn't make much of a difference at all. Commercially...
> The more free software on the system, the more alliances it would allow them
> to make with companies like IBM, and some of the other open-source systems.


<paranoid view>

I read an interesting perspective in Bruce Montague's Elements of 
Operating System & Internet History, a FreeBSD Perspective. In my mind, it 
helped make some sense out of the nonsensical "why are all the big companies
publicly embracing GPL code while their use of BSD code remains 
unadvertised?" It gave me one of those aha moments, followed by the 
realization that something insidious may be going on.

Remember the days of Big Blue and that huge antitrust case against IBM 
that dragged on for decades? Well, "the charge against IBM was, in effect, 
that it was stifling the opportunity for a competitive software market to 
arise by bundling free software with IBM hardware". And that free software 
was basically SHARE (www.share.org) code; that is, code written by 
customers and given to IBM for distribution to other customers. (gee, that 
sounds a lot like what happened at Berkeley...) Anyways, the fledgling 
software market at the time argued that IBM was stifling the software 
market which eventually led to the anti-trust case.

Bruce then goes on to explain the intent and ramifications of the BSD and 
GPL licenses. The intent of the GPL is to prevent open source code from 
becoming commercialized (www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html). This 
is the part that confused me, seeing all of the big software interests are 
embracing GPL code left write and center. Whereas, the BSD license doesn't 
place restrictions on what happens to the code i.e. it can stay open 
source or end up in a commercial entity.

Bruce then explains how history is repeating itself: "The GPL is well 
suited for use as a commercial marketing weapon, particularly by hardware or
service companies which, similar to IBM in the late 1950s and 1960s, profit if
the cost of software is driven to zero...zero-cost software can be used to
undermine the software of a competitor and can contribute to monopolistic
behaviour. It can drive software companies out of business. It is unclear if
the current generation of open source software will have this effect or not".

If this is the case, it is certainly ironic that Stallman's vision of the 
ideal license is being used to promote the commercial entities he is so 
strongly opposed to.

Dru



From ike  Wed Jan 12 09:51:35 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:51:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <74AED3E6-64A9-11D9-9401-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 12, 2005, at 9:47 AM, Dru wrote:

> Bruce then explains how history is repeating itself: "The GPL is well 
> suited for use as a commercial marketing weapon, particularly by 
> hardware or
> service companies which, similar to IBM in the late 1950s and 1960s, 
> profit if
> the cost of software is driven to zero...zero-cost software can be 
> used to
> undermine the software of a competitor and can contribute to 
> monopolistic
> behaviour. It can drive software companies out of business. It is 
> unclear if
> the current generation of open source software will have this effect 
> or not".
>
> If this is the case, it is certainly ironic that Stallman's vision of 
> the ideal license is being used to promote the commercial entities he 
> is so strongly opposed to.

Wow.  A definate nod to that sentiment from this desk.

Rocket in the free world-
.ike




From george  Wed Jan 12 11:17:52 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:17:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
Message-ID: <20050112161752.GI7400@sta.local>

Can anyone provide to links documentation on how users can generate
dsa key pairs with any (and all) of filezilla, winscp and putty?

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From tillman  Wed Jan 12 11:28:52 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:28:52 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
In-Reply-To: <20050112161752.GI7400@sta.local>
References: <20050112161752.GI7400@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050112162852.GH96419@seekingfire.com>

On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:17:52AM -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
> Can anyone provide to links documentation on how users can generate
> dsa key pairs with any (and all) of filezilla, winscp and putty?

Puttygen, a companion tool to putty, might be what you're looking for. I
found an overview at
http://www.tartarus.org/~simon/puttydoc/Chapter8.html but I'm sure
there's better documentation out there.

-T


-- 
Enlightenment is: do what you want, eat what there is
	Jack Kerouac



From krook  Wed Jan 12 11:46:04 2005
From: krook (Daniel Krook)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:46:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
In-Reply-To: <20050112161752.GI7400@sta.local>
Message-ID: <OFDEB0D6BC.F2ADD43E-ON85256F87.005C02E1-85256F87.005C1B2D@us.ibm.com>

> Can anyone provide to links documentation on how users can generate
> dsa key pairs with any (and all) of filezilla, winscp and putty?


You'll need at least the following four tools from the PuTTY download 
page, PuTTY, Pageant, Plink, and PuTTYgen:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html

PuTTYgen is the key generation tool.
Plink is the command line engine behind the PuTTY interface for SSH.
Pageant manages your keys on the client.

The docs page has most of the detailed set up information:
http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/0.56/htmldoc/

Section III of this guide may or may not be helpful as a summary of the 
steps involved.
http://krook.net/os/eclipse-cvs-setup.txt






Daniel Krook, Application Developer
WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com
1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604

Personal: http://info.krook.org/
Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897





From george  Wed Jan 12 12:09:59 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:09:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
In-Reply-To: <OFDEB0D6BC.F2ADD43E-ON85256F87.005C02E1-85256F87.005C1B2D@us.ibm.com>
References: <20050112161752.GI7400@sta.local>
	<OFDEB0D6BC.F2ADD43E-ON85256F87.005C02E1-85256F87.005C1B2D@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20050112170959.GA15118@sta.local>

On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:46:04AM -0500, Daniel Krook wrote:
>> Can anyone provide to links documentation on how users can generate
>> dsa key pairs with any (and all) of filezilla, winscp and putty?
>
>
>You'll need at least the following four tools from the PuTTY download 
>page, PuTTY, Pageant, Plink, and PuTTYgen:
>http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html
>
>PuTTYgen is the key generation tool.
>Plink is the command line engine behind the PuTTY interface for SSH.
>Pageant manages your keys on the client.
>
>The docs page has most of the detailed set up information:
>http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/0.56/htmldoc/
>
>Section III of this guide may or may not be helpful as a summary of the 
>steps involved.
>http://krook.net/os/eclipse-cvs-setup.txt


For winscp, it looks like PuTTYgen and Pageant are required and Pageant
is going to work like ssh-agent (and I don't have to invoke it before I
"startx"), am I reading this correct?

http://winscp.sourceforge.net/eng/docs/requirements?s=key#server_requirements

I looks like winscp uses Pageant automagically, I wonder if filezilla does too?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From krook  Wed Jan 12 12:21:53 2005
From: krook (Daniel Krook)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:21:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
In-Reply-To: <20050112170959.GA15118@sta.local>
Message-ID: <OFAD56015D.589B21B1-ON85256F87.005F2CA1-85256F87.005F6285@us.ibm.com>

> I looks like winscp uses Pageant automagically, I wonder if filezilla 
does too?

Doesn't quite look automagic, but seems like it does work:

http://lists.virus.org/debian-security-0306/msg00256.html

As for Pageant, I need to fire it up and add the key everytime I reboot my 
machine.  There's probably a way to automate this, but I never set it up.





Daniel Krook, Application Developer
WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com
1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604

Personal: http://info.krook.org/
Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897





From george  Wed Jan 12 12:41:24 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:41:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
In-Reply-To: <OFAD56015D.589B21B1-ON85256F87.005F2CA1-85256F87.005F6285@us.ibm.com>
References: <20050112170959.GA15118@sta.local>
	<OFAD56015D.589B21B1-ON85256F87.005F2CA1-85256F87.005F6285@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20050112174124.GA15561@sta.local>

On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 12:21:53PM -0500, Daniel Krook wrote:
>> I looks like winscp uses Pageant automagically, I wonder if filezilla 
>does too?
>
>Doesn't quite look automagic, but seems like it does work:
>
>http://lists.virus.org/debian-security-0306/msg00256.html
>
>As for Pageant, I need to fire it up and add the key everytime I reboot my 
>machine.  There's probably a way to automate this, but I never set it up.
>
>
>
>
>Daniel Krook, Application Developer
>WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com
>1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604
>
>Personal: http://info.krook.org/
>Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897




Thanks!

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From steve.rieger  Wed Jan 12 13:52:49 2005
From: steve.rieger (steve rieger)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:52:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php conflict from ports
Message-ID: <41E57201.1030301@tbwachiat.com>

hi all, have a question i am sure some of you came across already.

i have a requirement to install php pear, but when trying to install 
from ports it tells me that i must uninstall mod_php, if i uninstall 
mod_php and then install pear me thinks that me can not reinstall 
mod_php, how would i get apache to run with mod_php in that case.


thanx
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From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 14:13:04 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:13:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:47:37 -0500 (EST), Dru <dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 
> Bruce then goes on to explain the intent and ramifications of the BSD and
> GPL licenses. The intent of the GPL is to prevent open source code from
> becoming commercialized (www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html). This
> is the part that confused me, seeing all of the big software interests are
> embracing GPL code left write and center. Whereas, the BSD license doesn't
> place restrictions on what happens to the code i.e. it can stay open
> source or end up in a commercial entity.

The gpl, IMO, is anti innovation as far as software goes.  Explain
this to the VC/shareholders:

1: you used a gpled library in your commercial app.
2: one of your customers figures it out
3: said customer demands all your code, using a lawyer
4: puts it up on sourceforge, along with his own compiled windows binaries
5: it is your only product and sales have droped off by +90%


> 
> Bruce then explains how history is repeating itself: "The GPL is well
> suited for use as a commercial marketing weapon, particularly by hardware or
> service companies which, similar to IBM in the late 1950s and 1960s, profit if
> the cost of software is driven to zero...zero-cost software can be used to
> undermine the software of a competitor and can contribute to monopolistic
> behaviour. It can drive software companies out of business. It is unclear if
> the current generation of open source software will have this effect or not".
> 

the gpl is designed to destroy the value of software and it does a
very good job of doing it.

> If this is the case, it is certainly ironic that Stallman's vision of the
> ideal license is being used to promote the commercial entities he is so
> strongly opposed to.

If you look at RMS's ideal world he was a comunist, you own nothing.  

marc



From ike  Wed Jan 12 14:15:28 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:15:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php conflict from ports
In-Reply-To: <41E57201.1030301@tbwachiat.com>
References: <41E57201.1030301@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <521731FD-64CE-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Steve,

On Jan 12, 2005, at 1:52 PM, steve rieger wrote:

> hi all, have a question i am sure some of you came across already.
>
> i have a requirement to install php pear, but when trying to install 
> from ports it tells me that i must uninstall mod_php, if i uninstall 
> mod_php and then install pear me thinks that me can not reinstall 
> mod_php, how would i get apache to run with mod_php in that case.

Yuck.

Are you certain that the ports installer for php pear won't just 
reinstall mod_php clean?

Hrm.  After I just looked up pear, there's a LOT of ports for it.  This 
may be a good question for a nyphp list...

There may be an easy way around this that I can't see, but I'll throw 
in my .02? on the issue- running Apache/mods from Ports can become 
wicked complex (insane to maintain) when one has to incorporate new or 
different add-ons, (dependancy loops like this can become a puzzle much 
more time consuming than just installing Apache w. everything from 
sources...).

If it's trivial, I'd really seriously consider trying to Install at 
least the 'php pear' package from source- it may be simpler/cleaner to 
maintain in the long run.

end .02?

Rocket-
.ike




From aron  Wed Jan 12 14:17:56 2005
From: aron (Aron Roberts)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:17:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>

Correct me if I am wrong, but unless you modify the library you should 
be able to link against whatever you want with no repercussions from 
the GPL. Even then you would only be required to share your changes to 
that library.

I sure like the BSD license better however I am not sure that you are 
right in this case.



On Jan 12, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:47:37 -0500 (EST), Dru <dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca> 
> wrote:
>>
>> Bruce then goes on to explain the intent and ramifications of the BSD 
>> and
>> GPL licenses. The intent of the GPL is to prevent open source code 
>> from
>> becoming commercialized (www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html). 
>> This
>> is the part that confused me, seeing all of the big software 
>> interests are
>> embracing GPL code left write and center. Whereas, the BSD license 
>> doesn't
>> place restrictions on what happens to the code i.e. it can stay open
>> source or end up in a commercial entity.
>
> The gpl, IMO, is anti innovation as far as software goes.  Explain
> this to the VC/shareholders:
>
> 1: you used a gpled library in your commercial app.
> 2: one of your customers figures it out
> 3: said customer demands all your code, using a lawyer
> 4: puts it up on sourceforge, along with his own compiled windows 
> binaries
> 5: it is your only product and sales have droped off by +90%
>
>
>>
>> Bruce then explains how history is repeating itself: "The GPL is well
>> suited for use as a commercial marketing weapon, particularly by 
>> hardware or
>> service companies which, similar to IBM in the late 1950s and 1960s, 
>> profit if
>> the cost of software is driven to zero...zero-cost software can be 
>> used to
>> undermine the software of a competitor and can contribute to 
>> monopolistic
>> behaviour. It can drive software companies out of business. It is 
>> unclear if
>> the current generation of open source software will have this effect 
>> or not".
>>
>
> the gpl is designed to destroy the value of software and it does a
> very good job of doing it.
>
>> If this is the case, it is certainly ironic that Stallman's vision of 
>> the
>> ideal license is being used to promote the commercial entities he is 
>> so
>> strongly opposed to.
>
> If you look at RMS's ideal world he was a comunist, you own nothing.
>
> marc
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>




From bob  Wed Jan 12 14:47:03 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:47:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <BB2DE606-64D2-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>

On Jan 12, 2005, at 14:17, Aron Roberts wrote:

> On Jan 12, 2005, at 2:13 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:47:37 -0500 (EST), Dru 
>> <dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bruce then goes on to explain the intent and ramifications of the 
>>> BSD and
>>> GPL licenses. The intent of the GPL is to prevent open source code 
>>> from
>>> becoming commercialized (www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html). 
>>> This
>>> is the part that confused me, seeing all of the big software 
>>> interests are
>>> embracing GPL code left write and center. Whereas, the BSD license 
>>> doesn't
>>> place restrictions on what happens to the code i.e. it can stay open
>>> source or end up in a commercial entity.
>>
>> The gpl, IMO, is anti innovation as far as software goes.  Explain
>> this to the VC/shareholders:
>>
>> 1: you used a gpled library in your commercial app.
>> 2: one of your customers figures it out
>> 3: said customer demands all your code, using a lawyer
>> 4: puts it up on sourceforge, along with his own compiled windows 
>> binaries
>> 5: it is your only product and sales have droped off by +90%
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Bruce then explains how history is repeating itself: "The GPL is well
>>> suited for use as a commercial marketing weapon, particularly by 
>>> hardware or
>>> service companies which, similar to IBM in the late 1950s and 1960s, 
>>> profit if
>>> the cost of software is driven to zero...zero-cost software can be 
>>> used to
>>> undermine the software of a competitor and can contribute to 
>>> monopolistic
>>> behaviour. It can drive software companies out of business. It is 
>>> unclear if
>>> the current generation of open source software will have this effect 
>>> or not".
>>>
>>
>> the gpl is designed to destroy the value of software and it does a
>> very good job of doing it.
>>
>>> If this is the case, it is certainly ironic that Stallman's vision 
>>> of the
>>> ideal license is being used to promote the commercial entities he is 
>>> so
>>> strongly opposed to.
>>
>> If you look at RMS's ideal world he was a comunist, you own nothing.
> Correct me if I am wrong, but unless you modify the library you should 
> be able to link against whatever you want with no repercussions from 
> the GPL. Even then you would only be required to share your changes to 
> that library.

You are thinking of the LGPL.  The GPL exhibits the described 
properties.  Consider yourself corrected :)

> I sure like the BSD license better however I am not sure that you are 
> right in this case.

He is right!

-bob




From dan  Wed Jan 12 14:52:47 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:52:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php conflict from ports
In-Reply-To: <41E57201.1030301@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <41E539BF.19080.8D901C43@localhost>

On 12 Jan 2005 at 13:52, steve rieger wrote:

> hi all, have a question i am sure some of you came across already.
> 
> i have a requirement to install php pear, but when trying to install 
> from ports it tells me that i must uninstall mod_php, if i uninstall 
> mod_php and then install pear me thinks that me can not reinstall 
> mod_php, how would i get apache to run with mod_php in that case.

Try lang/php4
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From aron  Wed Jan 12 14:56:05 2005
From: aron (Aron Roberts)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:56:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <BB2DE606-64D2-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<BB2DE606-64D2-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <FEBCC93E-64D3-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>> Correct me if I am wrong, but unless you modify the library you 
>> should be able to link against whatever you want with no 
>> repercussions from the GPL. Even then you would only be required to 
>> share your changes to that library.
>
> You are thinking of the LGPL.  The GPL exhibits the described 
> properties.  Consider yourself corrected :)
>
>> I sure like the BSD license better however I am not sure that you are 
>> right in this case.
>
> He is right!
>
> -bob

Wow... cruddy, thanks! :)




From pete  Wed Jan 12 15:19:32 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:19:32 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <4570D4D2-64D7-11D9-9862-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Aron Roberts wrote:

> Correct me if I am wrong, but unless you modify the library you should 
> be able to link against whatever you want with no repercussions from 
> the GPL. Even then you would only be required to share your changes to 
> that library.
>
> I sure like the BSD license better however I am not sure that you are 
> right in this case.
>
>
from the horses mouth
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfLibraryIsGPL

"If a library is released under the GPL (not the LGPL), does that mean 
that any program which uses it has to be under the GPL?
     Yes, because the program as it is actually run includes the 
library."

-pete
>>
>> If you look at RMS's ideal world he was a comunist, you own nothing.

heh well you say that like sharing is a bad thing....what bothers me 
about RMS and the GPL is that it infact ends up *reducing* the amount 
of freedom and individual has by using the GPL (shamelessly taken from 
a rant Theo).


-p


~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 15:42:03 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:42:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail hack be warned
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050112124219057b44@mail.gmail.com>

http://dump.hbx.us/gmail_bug_hack/



From bob  Wed Jan 12 16:08:20 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:08:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <4570D4D2-64D7-11D9-9862-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<4570D4D2-64D7-11D9-9862-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <16426B02-64DE-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 15:19, pete wright wrote:

> heh well you say that like sharing is a bad thing....what bothers me 
> about RMS and the GPL is that it infact ends up *reducing* the amount 
> of freedom and individual has by using the GPL (shamelessly taken from 
> a rant Theo).

Yeah.  I'm a GPL-hater too.  As a software developer, GPL just adds 
hassle.  Licenses that impose fewer restrictions give me more 
flexibility.  If I want to (or have time to, or am allowed to) share 
something, I will, and I often do.  I don't need an idealist license to 
force me to share, though I suppose that may be the case for some 
developers.

The GPL actually makes me much less likely to share.  If it's GPL, I 
probably won't contribute to it or even use it unless I absolutely have 
no other option.

-bob




From spork  Wed Jan 12 16:40:00 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:40:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php conflict from ports
In-Reply-To: <41E539BF.19080.8D901C43@localhost>
References: <41E539BF.19080.8D901C43@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501121638130.370@radec.bway.net>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Dan Langille wrote:

> Try lang/php4

I'll second that.  I just did a big jump on a bunch of machines and moved 
to that port.  Once it's done, it's much much easier to keep up to date 
than working from source.

The recent split of all the Pear and php extensions is a pain to start 
with, but ongoing very nice (assuming you're familiar with portupgrade, 
esp. the "-b" switch).

Charles

> -- 
> Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 16:39:58 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:39:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:17:56 -0500, Aron Roberts <aron at slam.cc> wrote:
> Correct me if I am wrong, but unless you modify the library you should
> be able to link against whatever you want with no repercussions from
> the GPL. Even then you would only be required to share your changes to
> that library.

you are wrong, you are thinking about the LGPL. and that one letter is a
whole world of difference.   The short answer is if you link against GPLed code,
even shared libs, you have just GPLed your code and everyone down stream can
demand all the source code you have that touched(linked against) the GPLed code.

> 
> I sure like the BSD license better however I am not sure that you are
> right in this case.

It depends on what you are trying to do for RMS GPL is better then
LGPL and LGPL is better than BSD.  I disagree with his goals so I
disagree with his ranking.

BTW top posting is considered rude, it makes things harder to read for
the rest of us.

marc



From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 16:45:49 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:45:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <4570D4D2-64D7-11D9-9862-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<4570D4D2-64D7-11D9-9862-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305011213452adb60a9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:19:32 -0800, pete wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> 

[ I said this marc]
> >> If you look at RMS's ideal world he was a comunist, you own nothing.
> 
> heh well you say that like sharing is a bad thing....what bothers me
> about RMS and the GPL is that it infact ends up *reducing* the amount
> of freedom and individual has by using the GPL (shamelessly taken from
> a rant Theo).
> 

I have no problem with sharing stuff,  I have a big problem about
being compelled to share stuff.  Once you bring a stick to the table
you are no longer playing nice.

marc



From dan  Wed Jan 12 16:54:11 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:54:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php conflict from ports
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501121638130.370@radec.bway.net>
References: <41E539BF.19080.8D901C43@localhost>
Message-ID: <41E55633.17816.8DFF41E0@localhost>

On 12 Jan 2005 at 16:40, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Dan Langille wrote:
> 
> > Try lang/php4
> 
> I'll second that.  I just did a big jump on a bunch of machines and moved 
> to that port.  Once it's done, it's much much easier to keep up to date 
> than working from source.

Also consider lang/php4-extensions.  That contains all your 
PostgreSQL, MySQL, etc extensions.  Once you specify your extensions, 
they remain until you do a make rmconfig.  To add/remove something 
from your existing choices, run make config.  All very nice.

> The recent split of all the Pear and php extensions is a pain to start 
> with, but ongoing very nice (assuming you're familiar with portupgrade, 
> esp. the "-b" switch).

Never used that.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From bob  Wed Jan 12 17:05:18 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:05:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305011213452adb60a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<4570D4D2-64D7-11D9-9862-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<8c50a3c305011213452adb60a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0B66C097-64E6-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 16:45, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:19:32 -0800, pete wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> 
> wrote:
>>
>
> [ I said this marc]
>>>> If you look at RMS's ideal world he was a comunist, you own nothing.
>>
>> heh well you say that like sharing is a bad thing....what bothers me
>> about RMS and the GPL is that it infact ends up *reducing* the amount
>> of freedom and individual has by using the GPL (shamelessly taken from
>> a rant Theo).
>>
>
> I have no problem with sharing stuff,  I have a big problem about
> being compelled to share stuff.  Once you bring a stick to the table
> you are no longer playing nice.

Well said.

-bob




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 17:05:29 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:05:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:57:24 -0500, Aron Roberts <aron at slam.cc> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 12, 2005, at 4:39 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> > you are wrong, you are thinking about the LGPL.
> 
> Yeah I certainly see my mistake now. Should have looked before I leapt.
> 
> > BTW top posting is considered rude, it makes things harder to read for
> > the rest of us.
> 
> That is not a universally held opinion.
> Whatever works for ya.

this is a Unix group and for Unix it generally is.  I was going to
send this in private mail but the last time I tried I was told gmail
was not welcome by your server, very rude.

marc

> 
>



From ike  Wed Jan 12 17:40:39 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:40:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

>> That is not a universally held opinion.
>> Whatever works for ya.
>
> this is a Unix group and for Unix it generally is.

Yeah, actually in UNIX settings it generally is bad to top-post.

> I was going to
> send this in private mail but the last time I tried I was told gmail
> was not welcome by your server, very rude.
>
> marc

This is interesting- and ironically relevant- considering the last few 
posts in this thread.

Why would somebody block Gmail email?  I can totally understand the 
reasons why one would want to decline an invitation for using an 
account, but why block incoming mail from Gmail?

Curiosity getting this cat- Rocket-
.ike




From pete  Wed Jan 12 17:40:12 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:40:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail hack be warned
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050112124219057b44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c3050112124219057b44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39900.160.33.20.11.1105569612.squirrel@160.33.20.11>


> http://dump.hbx.us/gmail_bug_hack/

this is indeed a bummer (altho the article describing how they ran into
the bug is pretty good IMO).  I hope they clean this up soon...i made the
mistake of using gmail for ebay stuff (fortunatly no billing related info
tho - but still not good) :(

-pete

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866




From aron  Wed Jan 12 17:48:49 2005
From: aron (Aron Roberts)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:48:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
> Yeah, actually in UNIX settings it generally is bad to top-post.
>

I have found it depends on the quoting style, however it was a mistake. 
I find different lists like different styles. However in no case have I 
heard it referred to as rude. Which is why I immediately reverted to 
bottom posting

> Why would somebody block Gmail email?  I can totally understand the 
> reasons why one would want to decline an invitation for using an 
> account, but why block incoming mail from Gmail?
>

We don't block gmail. He was making that part up :)  I don't run that 
machine any more... but I can certainly ask someone to check the logs. 
I get all sorts of mail from other gmail users however.




From ike  Wed Jan 12 18:00:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:00:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <BF986C7E-64ED-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:48 PM, Aron Roberts wrote:

>
> On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, actually in UNIX settings it generally is bad to top-post.
>>
>
> I have found it depends on the quoting style, however it was a 
> mistake. I find different lists like different styles. However in no 
> case have I heard it referred to as rude. Which is why I immediately 
> reverted to bottom posting

Dig. :)

>
>> Why would somebody block Gmail email?  I can totally understand the 
>> reasons why one would want to decline an invitation for using an 
>> account, but why block incoming mail from Gmail?
>>
>
> We don't block gmail. He was making that part up :)

Marc?

> I don't run that machine any more... but I can certainly ask someone 
> to check the logs. I get all sorts of mail from other gmail users 
> however.

/me seriously curious- especially re. the gmail hack out today(?) in 
another thread here...

Rocket-
.ike




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 18:10:32 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:10:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050112151071aa4cd9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:48:49 -0500, Aron Roberts <aron at slam.cc> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, actually in UNIX settings it generally is bad to top-post.
> >
> 
> I have found it depends on the quoting style, however it was a mistake.
> I find different lists like different styles. However in no case have I
> heard it referred to as rude. Which is why I immediately reverted to
> bottom posting

I was wrong, was not you.  Sorry about that.  


> 
> > Why would somebody block Gmail email?  I can totally understand the
> > reasons why one would want to decline an invitation for using an
> > account, but why block incoming mail from Gmail?
> >
> 
> We don't block gmail. He was making that part up :)  I don't run that

in this case true.

marc



From bob  Wed Jan 12 18:12:08 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:12:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <61A3EC0B-64EF-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 17:40, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>>> That is not a universally held opinion.
>>> Whatever works for ya.
>>
>> this is a Unix group and for Unix it generally is.
>
> Yeah, actually in UNIX settings it generally is bad to top-post.

Software developers also seem to prefer bottom-posting, at least in the 
open source world, regardless of platform.  Hasn't list etiquette been 
discussed here before?  Did any of that discussion end up on 
nycbug.org?

-bob




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 18:14:19 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:14:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail hack be warned
In-Reply-To: <39900.160.33.20.11.1105569612.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
References: <8c50a3c3050112124219057b44@mail.gmail.com>
	<39900.160.33.20.11.1105569612.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050112151435091c74@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:40:12 -0800 (PST), Pete Wright
<pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> 
> > http://dump.hbx.us/gmail_bug_hack/
> 
> this is indeed a bummer (altho the article describing how they ran into
> the bug is pretty good IMO).  I hope they clean this up soon...i made the
> mistake of using gmail for ebay stuff (fortunatly no billing related info
> tho - but still not good) :(

It did not look too bad, no control over what you got back.  Random
info so people could not target you specificly.  with that said
randomly getting your credit card lifted still sucks.

marc

> 
> -pete
> 
> --
> ~~oO00Oo~~
> Peter Wright
> pete at nomadlogic.org
> www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
> 917.415.9866
> 
>



From bob  Wed Jan 12 18:14:29 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:14:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <B5B8B849-64EF-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 17:48, Aron Roberts wrote:

>
> On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, actually in UNIX settings it generally is bad to top-post.
>>
>
> I have found it depends on the quoting style, however it was a 
> mistake. I find different lists like different styles. However in no 
> case have I heard it referred to as rude. Which is why I immediately 
> reverted to bottom posting

It's probably because you top-posted to a thread that is already 
written in bottom-post style.  If I reply to these sorts of messages, I 
will almost always rewrite them to be consistent, and that is pretty 
annoying.

-bob




From ike  Wed Jan 12 18:17:08 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:17:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050112151071aa4cd9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112151071aa4cd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <146C7D1F-64F0-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 12, 2005, at 6:10 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

>> We don't block gmail. He was making that part up :)  I don't run that
>
> in this case true.
>
> marc

/me chucks a couple of doughnuts across the east river, hoping that one 
will hit Marc in the head.

Rocket-
.ike





From george  Wed Jan 12 18:19:35 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:19:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <146C7D1F-64F0-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112151071aa4cd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<146C7D1F-64F0-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <6C29E4CC-64F0-11D9-95C9-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 6:17 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 12, 2005, at 6:10 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>>> We don't block gmail. He was making that part up :)  I don't run that
>>
>> in this case true.
>>
>> marc
>
> /me chucks a couple of doughnuts across the east river, hoping that 
> one will hit Marc in the head.
>

doughnuts are caught by Marc S., hurdled back across East River to 
George R.'s head for not having the Netiquette doc up and operational. 
. .

George R. drops down cold and no one knows the list admin passwd, and 
Hans is somewhere far far away.

George R.




From pete  Wed Jan 12 18:21:44 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:21:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <6C29E4CC-64F0-11D9-95C9-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<AA4FFADA-64CE-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c305011213394ad969ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<F14AEA9B-64E4-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112140560bf1ea8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC176686-64EA-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<1FDA9E8F-64EC-11D9-BC96-000393DEEF4A@slam.cc>
	<8c50a3c3050112151071aa4cd9@mail.gmail.com>
	<146C7D1F-64F0-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<6C29E4CC-64F0-11D9-95C9-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050112232144.GA4421@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 06:19:35PM -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:

(Meanwhile in a way way off topic thread....)
> 
> 
> George R. drops down cold and no one knows the list admin passwd, and 
> Hans is somewhere far far away.

ahh the school bus scenario strikes again (i wish i could remember when i
heard that first....maybe at a nycbug meeting?)

-pete


> 
> George R.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From chsnyder  Wed Jan 12 19:10:03 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:10:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail hack be warned
In-Reply-To: <39900.160.33.20.11.1105569612.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
References: <8c50a3c3050112124219057b44@mail.gmail.com>
	<39900.160.33.20.11.1105569612.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
Message-ID: <b7625269050112161043997ee@mail.gmail.com>

Pete Wright wrote:
> I hope they clean this up soon..

Finally got around to writing my own test of this, but it appears that
the gengineers have hacked something up to prevent you from opening
any message with a mal-formed From: address.



From unixenigma  Wed Jan 12 19:27:56 2005
From: unixenigma (G T)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:27:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
Message-ID: <20050113002756.43428.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>

Looks neat...
http://www.apple.com/macmini/

GT


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 




From ike  Wed Jan 12 20:02:30 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:02:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <20050113002756.43428.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050113002756.43428.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CC967B70-64FE-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 12, 2005, at 7:27 PM, G T wrote:

> Looks neat...
> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
>
> GT

Heck yeah- one of these would make for a sexy little backup/fileserver 
IMO, out of sight and sound alltogether...

Rocket-
.ike




From sunny-ml  Wed Jan 12 20:12:06 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:12:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120034440.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120034440.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <200501122012.06475.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 12 January 2005 00:38, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

>
> Mutter, it's too late in the night to do thinking, I'm wrong on this one.
> Struct members are naturally-aligned (i.e. alignment is to the data type's
> own size, chars are not aligned at all, etc) - thus {char a,b,c;} will
> take 3*8 bit of space on any architecture.
>
> However, {char a;int *b;} will be 4+4 bytes on 32-bit and 8+8 bytes on
> 64-bit still.

So this is where things break down for me.

I know video-gaming isn't exactly general computing, but I assume 99.9% of the 
theories/practices carry over ...

that being said ...

Video game consoles always have a higher computing bits, but much lower memory 
footprints.  Does that mean they are hurting themselves ?

ie:  the Nintendo 64 (released in 1996) had a 64bit MIPS CPU and only 4 megs 
of RAM.  The PlayStation2 has a 128 bit MIPS-derivative CPU with only 32 megs 
of RAM.  So at any given time, they aren't acessing much memory at all.

So by the logic above ... it would have been faster if the machines 
had stayed at 32bits ?

Sunny Dubey



From sunny-ml  Wed Jan 12 20:12:49 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:12:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 12 January 2005 14:13, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> The gpl, IMO, is anti innovation as far as software goes.  Explain
> this to the VC/shareholders:
>
> 1: you used a gpled library in your commercial app.

there was your single biggest mistake.

if your employees are too stupid to take care of licensing regardless of open 
source or closed source, the manager and the employees need to be fired 
pronto

> 2: one of your customers figures it out
> 3: said customer demands all your code, using a lawyer
> 4: puts it up on sourceforge, along with his own compiled windows binaries
> 5: it is your only product and sales have droped off by +90%

not the GPL's products fault

did the GPL product visit your home at nite and threatened you with a gun if 
you didn't use it ?

No, you ********** WILLINGLY *********** chose to use it and now must deal 
with the consequences of it.

(May I repeat the key word .... WILLINGLY )

its like unprotected sex with that random gal/guy at the bar last nite.  You 
had fun (step 1), and now you've got huge problems (steps 2, 3, 4, and 5)

> the gpl is designed to destroy the value of software and it does a
> very good job of doing it.
>

Of course! clearly the authors behind Mplayer, GNOME, Pan, Gaim, Gimp, etc etc 
etc want to destroy the value of their hard work and labor.

Do not attack the GPL if you ****WILLINGLY**** chose to use software licensed 
under it.

That would be like going on NASA's Shuttle to space and complaining about 
freeze-dried food (which tastes really really bad BTW).

Sunny Dubey



From bob  Wed Jan 12 20:26:50 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:26:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 1U Server Recommendations
In-Reply-To: <200501122012.06475.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501120034440.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<200501122012.06475.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <32D23BCA-6502-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 20:12, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Wednesday 12 January 2005 00:38, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Mutter, it's too late in the night to do thinking, I'm wrong on this 
>> one.
>> Struct members are naturally-aligned (i.e. alignment is to the data 
>> type's
>> own size, chars are not aligned at all, etc) - thus {char a,b,c;} will
>> take 3*8 bit of space on any architecture.
>>
>> However, {char a;int *b;} will be 4+4 bytes on 32-bit and 8+8 bytes on
>> 64-bit still.
>
> So this is where things break down for me.
>
> I know video-gaming isn't exactly general computing, but I assume 
> 99.9% of the
> theories/practices carry over ...
>
> that being said ...
>
> Video game consoles always have a higher computing bits, but much 
> lower memory
> footprints.  Does that mean they are hurting themselves ?
>
> ie:  the Nintendo 64 (released in 1996) had a 64bit MIPS CPU and only 
> 4 megs
> of RAM.  The PlayStation2 has a 128 bit MIPS-derivative CPU with only 
> 32 megs
> of RAM.  So at any given time, they aren't acessing much memory at all.
>
> So by the logic above ... it would have been faster if the machines
> had stayed at 32bits ?

No.  As I said before, data isn't always stored in platform words.  The 
majority of information dealt with by a video game console is a packed 
format for geometry, textures, or sound.  A 16bit sound sample is a 
16bit sound sample, regardless of what the CPU deals with natively.. 
just as a 32 bits per pixel texture is going to be 32 bits per pixel 
whether your CPU deals in 12 or 128 bit words.

The advantage to having wider registers in your CPU is mostly because 
that means you have a wider bus.  That's why we have stuff like Altivec 
and SSE2.  These units have very large registers and a wide bus for 
dealing with lots of data -- even though for "normal" operation your 
CPU is probably dealing with 32bit or 64bit words.  With Altivec, for 
example, you can work on up to eight 32bit words in one instruction, 
because you can fit four in each Altivec register (128 bits wide).  
This means you can make certain algorithms run in *less than* 1/4th of 
the time under ideal circumstances.  So clearly, in some cases, big 
registers is a big win.

-bob




From ike  Wed Jan 12 20:47:31 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:47:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <16D8B9FC-6505-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Sunny,

On Jan 12, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Wednesday 12 January 2005 14:13, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>> The gpl, IMO, is anti innovation as far as software goes.  Explain
>> this to the VC/shareholders:
>>
>> 1: you used a gpled library in your commercial app.
>
> there was your single biggest mistake.
>
> if your employees are too stupid to take care of licensing regardless 
> of open
> source or closed source, the manager and the employees need to be fired
> pronto

Sunny, sorry to be curt, but this thread was about an article where 
Andy Hertzfield made some ridiculously uninformed statements about how 
Apple should use Linux, and generalized how Linux needs to be what 
drives all of tech, from a business perspective.

But to take it sideways here, are you advocating above, that anyone 
working at a company who pulls GPL code into anything at the company, 
should be fired?  ;)

>
>> 2: one of your customers figures it out
>> 3: said customer demands all your code, using a lawyer
>> 4: puts it up on sourceforge, along with his own compiled windows 
>> binaries
>> 5: it is your only product and sales have droped off by +90%
>
> not the GPL's products fault
>
> did the GPL product visit your home at nite and threatened you with a 
> gun if
> you didn't use it ?

Yes.  It scared me and I called the cops.

>
> No, you ********** WILLINGLY *********** chose to use it and now must 
> deal
> with the consequences of it.
>
> (May I repeat the key word .... WILLINGLY )
>
> its like unprotected sex with that random gal/guy at the bar last 
> nite.  You
> had fun (step 1), and now you've got huge problems (steps 2, 3, 4, and 
> 5)

um,..

>
>> the gpl is designed to destroy the value of software and it does a
>> very good job of doing it.
>>
>
> Of course! clearly the authors behind Mplayer, GNOME, Pan, Gaim, Gimp, 
> etc etc
> etc want to destroy the value of their hard work and labor.

No, but seriously, I've been involved with 3 Open Source projects which 
have outright turned the project from GPL to LGPL and BSD Licenced, 
insomuch as the initial author made an un-informed choice when they 
decided to post their young project under the GPL.  No arguments, no 
fuss, and no misgivings.  By the time they went to actually apply it in 
a company or paying project, and bring their creation to a place they 
work at all day, the GPL just didn't fly.

The authors simply didn't know any better when they started- but lucky 
for them, the projects didn't include any other GPL'ed code to begin 
with, so the change was easy.  I believe a lot of projects are like 
this- hackers, especially young ones, tend to pay attention to the 
important stuff- hacking the code- not licensing and property...

>
> Do not attack the GPL if you ****WILLINGLY**** chose to use software 
> licensed
> under it.

See, Sunny, this is the NYC BSD Users Group, for the most part we're 
here because we ****WILLINGLY**** chose to use BSD licensed software.

>
> That would be like going on NASA's Shuttle to space and complaining 
> about
> freeze-dried food (which tastes really really bad BTW).

Sunny, check your head and cop some humble man- GPL software doesn't 
run everything, it's not somebody's only choice, by far, and I'd argue 
that GPL code couldn't possibly constitute a majority of code in the 
whole of Open Source.

I'm not meaning disrespect or flame-bait here, but we're all on this 
list today because people ****WILLINGLY**** chose to openly share 
source code long before there was any such thing called Open Source.

So please, I know your reading this using one of the various (and very 
nice) GPL'd window managers right now, but please remember what much of 
the source code of contemporary Linux userland comes from, BSD; freely 
distributed to everyone, even free for people to blend up with the GPL.

And just to put this in context, I'll go back to watching a FreeBSD 
compile using the GCC- and hoping we're both smiling.


Rocket-
.ike




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 12 20:48:56 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:48:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050112174841f97bf5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:12:49 -0500, Sunny Dubey <sunny-ml at opencurve.org> wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 January 2005 14:13, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> 
> > The gpl, IMO, is anti innovation as far as software goes.  Explain
> > this to the VC/shareholders:
> >
> > 1: you used a gpled library in your commercial app.
> 
> there was your single biggest mistake.
> 
> if your employees are too stupid to take care of licensing regardless of open
> source or closed source, the manager and the employees need to be fired
> pronto

And what happens if we get blindsided by a quite change in licence
during an upgrade.  And the absolute dishonesty that the FSF uses in
marketing the cursed thing, it free but we have a definition of free
that is not in a dictionary and thats the kind of "free" it is.  Now
give us all your stuff.

> 
> > 2: one of your customers figures it out
> > 3: said customer demands all your code, using a lawyer
> > 4: puts it up on sourceforge, along with his own compiled windows binaries
> > 5: it is your only product and sales have droped off by +90%
> 
> not the GPL's products fault

the gpled product is a thing so it can never be at fault, ever sue a toaster.

> 
> did the GPL product visit your home at nite and threatened you with a gun if
> you didn't use it ?

sheer genius, why did I not think of that

> 
> No, you ********** WILLINGLY *********** chose to use it and now must deal
> with the consequences of it.

no I did not, sure you got enough * there and caps how very aol.

> 
> (May I repeat the key word .... WILLINGLY )
> 
> its like unprotected sex with that random gal/guy at the bar last nite.  You
> had fun (step 1), and now you've got huge problems (steps 2, 3, 4, and 5)
> 

no it like having sex with someone who does not tell you they have
herpes, in fact they swear up and down they are tested and clean then
after the fact they tell you the truth.


> > the gpl is designed to destroy the value of software and it does a
> > very good job of doing it.
> >
> 
> Of course! clearly the authors behind Mplayer, GNOME, Pan, Gaim, Gimp, etc etc
> etc want to destroy the value of their hard work and labor.

Where does the money come from to pay for the developers and hardware?
  I have yet to see an economic model for open source that does not
rely on charity, people donating time.  But at least if you do it with
a BSD license you are not dragging other people in with you who may
not want to come.

> 
> Do not attack the GPL if you ****WILLINGLY**** chose to use software licensed
> under it.

again with the aol stuff, good argument.  And I can attack anything I
want what are you gona do about it.  If you choose to hold your breath
until you turn blue please do it on an escalator.

> 
> That would be like going on NASA's Shuttle to space and complaining about
> freeze-dried food (which tastes really really bad BTW).

funny sunny I have had some good freeze dried food, you get what you
pay for I guess.

marc



From bob  Wed Jan 12 20:56:58 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:56:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <16D8B9FC-6505-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050112092411.Q591@dru.domain.org>
	<8c50a3c30501121113795a6672@mail.gmail.com>
	<200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<16D8B9FC-6505-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <68989F8F-6506-11D9-B569-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 12, 2005, at 20:47, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 12, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 12 January 2005 14:13, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>>
>> did the GPL product visit your home at nite and threatened you with a 
>> gun if
>> you didn't use it ?
>
> Yes.  It scared me and I called the cops.

Same here!  Fortunately I was playing Grand Theft Auto at the time, and 
libreadline became frightened by the thug voices and ran away.  
Unfortunately the suspect is still at large, but libedit is on the 
case.

-bob




From sunny-ml  Wed Jan 12 21:58:47 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:58:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] lame...real lame Andy
In-Reply-To: <16D8B9FC-6505-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050112055929.GE93124@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<200501122012.49342.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<16D8B9FC-6505-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200501122158.47500.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 12 January 2005 20:47, Ike wrote:

>
> Sunny, sorry to be curt

no need to apologize bro

we'll finish this after-school! mano to mano!

> but this thread was about an article where 
> Andy Hertzfield made some ridiculously uninformed statements about how
> Apple should use Linux, and generalized how Linux needs to be what
> drives all of tech, from a business perspective.

Oh I know that, I disagree with him too.  I think he was on the linux wave of 
the dot-bomb bubble and was burned by it.

Apple should stick to whatever they are comfy with in terms of tech and legal.  
(linux would never work for Apple.  it becomes much harder for binary-only 
code to link to the kernel, and the development cycles are two different 
beasts)

> But to take it sideways here, are you advocating above, that anyone
> working at a company who pulls GPL code into anything at the company,
> should be fired?  ;)

not GPL code, but any code

I think its amazing that SCO is suing IBM for code produced almost a decade 
ago, and yet IBM has been on the ball about which license was used for what 
code (much to SCO's dismay, heh)

All companies need to keep track of this stuff for the obvious reasons.  There 
are times/examples where entire companies accidentally used GPL'ed code and 
were badly bitten by it.  Sigma Design did that with the Xvid codec.

I'd be surprised if the coder (who lifted Xvid's code and attempted to hide 
it) and his manager weren't fired.

> See, Sunny, this is the NYC BSD Users Group,

whoa, we aren't in kansas anymore ?! :P

> for the most part we're 
> here because we ****WILLINGLY**** chose to use BSD licensed software.
>

well yeah, we choose lots of software from lots of licenses ... we gravitate 
towards a few licenses for our own reasons ... its just an issue of keeping 
an open mind and not being ignorant about the other guy's licenses.

cool

Sunny Dubey



From swygue  Thu Jan 13 10:20:14 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:20:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>

> well i've found "dd" to be a very good imaging program for unix.  having
> g4u take that long does not sound right tho, perhaps some hardware is
> acting flakey?  as a side note, you do not have to build every FreeBSD
> app from source, especially Window Managers and X servers.  Some would
> argue the benefits of building these programs from source is a waste of
> time when compared to all the headaches and time of building and
> maintiaing these large apps from the ports tree.  that is unless you
> really need to change some config., so for these types of situations i
> generally use:
> 
> pkg_add -r gnome
> 
> or what ever the correct package name is...

Thanks for the tip pete, I have struggle with idea of which is better,
building from ports or pkg_add. I just think that when I build from
ports the program should work faster, although I have not been able to
prove that. I have pretty much given up on the g4u.

Coming from the Windows world, I am custom to spend time tweakoing my
OS just the way I want it, then ghosting (Symantec Ghost) my entire
harddrive.
Then whenever I screw up my system, badly enough, I just download the image.

I would love to have the same flexibility with FreeBSD. Because even
with pkg_add perfecting FreeBSD for desktop use is quite time
consuming. Not to mention configuring a custom Kernel and building
world.

I would like to hear how others have managed to accomplish this.

I have look on articles that details how to move FreeBSD to a bigger
disk and I think  this method may help. Any thoughts ?

Thanks



From mspitzer  Thu Jan 13 10:35:32 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:35:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305011307352cdddf36@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:20:14 -0500, swygue <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the tip pete, I have struggle with idea of which is better,
> building from ports or pkg_add. I just think that when I build from
> ports the program should work faster, although I have not been able to
> prove that. I have pretty much given up on the g4u.

well there is nothing stoping you from doing both make packages to
your spec and then install them as packages.

> 
> Coming from the Windows world, I am custom to spend time tweakoing my
> OS just the way I want it, then ghosting (Symantec Ghost) my entire
> harddrive.
> Then whenever I screw up my system, badly enough, I just download the image.
> 
> I would love to have the same flexibility with FreeBSD. Because even
> with pkg_add perfecting FreeBSD for desktop use is quite time
> consuming. Not to mention configuring a custom Kernel and building
> world.

umm on most of my bsd boxes it takes less then 1 hour to do src->
install, fast cpus are great.  What you really need is a safe place to
store your config files, from what I read above,  since unix config
files are text based just tar/bzip them up and mail them to yahoo or
gmail.  Then if you toast your system reinstall/rebuild the os
reinstall your packages and pull down your config.

> 
> I would like to hear how others have managed to accomplish this.
> 
> I have look on articles that details how to move FreeBSD to a bigger
> disk and I think  this method may help. Any thoughts ?

one word of warning, dd will do an exact copy so if you move to a
bigger disk you my not see any size difference.

marc



From zperkov  Thu Jan 13 11:36:02 2005
From: zperkov (zperkov)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:36:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] alright....who did it?
Message-ID: <8a851180050113083629ae24ce@mail.gmail.com>

A problem with Google's e-mail service, Gmail, let any user query the
company's servers for information on the last message sent, two
hackers announced on Wednesday.

The programmers, part of a community site dedicated to the Unix-like
FreeBSD operating system, found that an improperly formatted address
allowed Gmail users to retrieve the message body of the last
HTML-formatted e-mail processed by the server..

http://news.com.com/2100-1029_3-5534210.html



From bob  Thu Jan 13 11:49:28 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:49:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] alright....who did it?
In-Reply-To: <8a851180050113083629ae24ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8a851180050113083629ae24ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1729918E-6583-11D9-94F0-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>

On Jan 13, 2005, at 11:36, zperkov wrote:

> A problem with Google's e-mail service, Gmail, let any user query the
> company's servers for information on the last message sent, two
> hackers announced on Wednesday.
>
> The programmers, part of a community site dedicated to the Unix-like
> FreeBSD operating system, found that an improperly formatted address
> allowed Gmail users to retrieve the message body of the last
> HTML-formatted e-mail processed by the server..
>
> http://news.com.com/2100-1029_3-5534210.html

We already had a thread about this yesterday, "gmail hack be warned".

-bob




From zperkov  Thu Jan 13 11:52:54 2005
From: zperkov (zperkov)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:52:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] alright....who did it?
In-Reply-To: <1729918E-6583-11D9-94F0-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <8a851180050113083629ae24ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<1729918E-6583-11D9-94F0-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <8a851180050113085223e4c37f@mail.gmail.com>

ahhh..sorry.
unfortunately my gmail was down yesterday........

-/z


On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:49:28 -0500, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
> On Jan 13, 2005, at 11:36, zperkov wrote:
> 
> > A problem with Google's e-mail service, Gmail, let any user query the
> > company's servers for information on the last message sent, two
> > hackers announced on Wednesday.
> >
> > The programmers, part of a community site dedicated to the Unix-like
> > FreeBSD operating system, found that an improperly formatted address
> > allowed Gmail users to retrieve the message body of the last
> > HTML-formatted e-mail processed by the server..
> >
> > http://news.com.com/2100-1029_3-5534210.html
> 
> We already had a thread about this yesterday, "gmail hack be warned".
> 
> -bob
> 
>



From chsnyder  Thu Jan 13 11:59:50 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:59:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <CC967B70-64FE-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113002756.43428.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
	<CC967B70-64FE-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <b7625269050113085974fb3d5d@mail.gmail.com>

Should be able to fit four or more of them in a 2U rack mount,
wouldn't you think?



From mspitzer  Thu Jan 13 12:08:29 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:08:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <b7625269050113085974fb3d5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050113002756.43428.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
	<CC967B70-64FE-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<b7625269050113085974fb3d5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501130908f2ff0ae@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:59:50 -0500, csnyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
> Should be able to fit four or more of them in a 2U rack mount,
> wouldn't you think?

cubest computing how nice.

marc

> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From unixenigma  Thu Jan 13 13:17:56 2005
From: unixenigma (G T)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:17:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501130908f2ff0ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:59:50 -0500, csnyder
> <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Should be able to fit four or more of them in a 2U
> rack mount,
> > wouldn't you think?
> 
> cubest computing how nice.
> 
> marc
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce
> lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce
> lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 
One extra feature they forgot to put is an OLED screen
on top, like like 8" or so.
Also a touch pad keyboard with cool bluetooth
headphones :D
Here comes the Overkill - Ipod All-in-One Box! :D

GT


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



From steve  Thu Jan 13 13:21:31 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:21:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stability question
Message-ID: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>

in your opinion if 5.3 stable enough to be used as a production server 
of should one stick to 1.10


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From mspitzer  Thu Jan 13 13:27:23 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:27:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stability question
In-Reply-To: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
References: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305011310272e75c612@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:21:31 -0500, steve <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> in your opinion if 5.3 stable enough to be used as a production server
> of should one stick to 1.10

And I thought 2.X was old school.

marc

> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 
> 
> 
>



From jschauma  Thu Jan 13 13:36:48 2005
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:36:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stability question
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305011310272e75c612@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
	<8c50a3c305011310272e75c612@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050113183648.GE25384@netmeister.org>

Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:21:31 -0500, steve <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> > in your opinion if 5.3 stable enough to be used as a production server
> > of should one stick to 1.10
> 
> And I thought 2.X was old school.

On the contrary: 2.0 has just been released, 5.3 will probably not be
released for several years.  So I'd suggest going with 2.0.

-Jan

-- 
"I am so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a 
month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis."
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From ike  Thu Jan 13 17:35:18 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:35:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stability question
In-Reply-To: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
References: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <67088370-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Steve,

On Jan 13, 2005, at 1:21 PM, steve wrote:

> in your opinion if 5.3 stable enough to be used as a production server 
> of should one stick to 1.10

IMHO:

4.10 is solid as can be, I'll likely stay in 4.x for the next 8 months, 
at least.
5.3 has repeatedly surprises me with issues (but less and less as time 
goes on here)

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Thu Jan 13 17:36:17 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:36:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 13, 2005, at 1:17 PM, G T wrote:

> Here comes the Overkill - Ipod All-in-One Box! :D

It is kindof an iPod on sterioids...

Rocket-
.ike





From bob  Thu Jan 13 17:40:33 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:40:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 13, 2005, at 17:36, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 13, 2005, at 1:17 PM, G T wrote:
>
>> Here comes the Overkill - Ipod All-in-One Box! :D
>
> It is kindof an iPod on sterioids...

I'm just waiting for someone to mod one to look like an 80s lunch box, 
it seems like it's about the same size.  Who will be the first on YOUR 
block to have a Voltron Mac Mini?

-bob




From pete  Thu Jan 13 18:46:55 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:46:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>

(sorry if this is a duplicate reply...despite my ability to offer advice
seems that still have problems sending email ;)

>
> Thanks for the tip pete, I have struggle with idea of which is better,
> building from ports or pkg_add. I just think that when I build from
> ports the program should work faster, although I have not been able to
> prove that. I have pretty much given up on the g4u.
>

i was talking to a developer a while back (who was actually preparing a
lecture on compiler optimisation) about this same topic.  I forwarded the
idea that one of the benefits of hand compiling software is that it will
run faster...seeing as how it's been built on my specific CPU/etc.  He
responded that as long as the maintainer builds a package with sensable
optimisation flags the benefits are really slim to nill.

For me the real benefit of the ports tree or pkgsrc is the ability to
easily customize a specific software package.  For example let's say that
the .pkg for sasldb does not include support for ldap auth (or something
along those lines).  Using the ports adding this support is pretty
trivial.  Having to do this in a sane way with binary distributions is
not, atleast in the long term (actaully i've never had to do this with
FreeBSD packages...only with .rpm's .deb's and slackware .tgz so maybe
it's more easy with FreeBSD wouldn't that be nice).

so anyway...pkg's 9 times outta 10 are the way togo esp. with large
bundles like X.org or gnome....


> Coming from the Windows world, I am custom to spend time tweakoing my
> OS just the way I want it, then ghosting (Symantec Ghost) my entire
> harddrive.
> Then whenever I screw up my system, badly enough, I just download the
> image.
>

one of the great design decisions with Unix is the fact that all of your
important configuration data is in easy accessable ASCII text files.  For
me, when it's time to reinstall a workstation...or even migrate operating
environments I tar up /etc /usr/local/etc/ /home and what ever important
directories I may need.

On a similar note I think you will find that the need to do a complete
reinstall when a box get's messed up to pretty infrequent when using a
Unix platform.  Unix type OS's tend to be much more modular than Win32 so
if your mail server get's hosed there is rarely a need to reinstall the
complete box to fix the problem.  Altho to do a complete backup there are
builtin utilities like "dd" "dump" and tar that are well suited for these
tasks.

> I would love to have the same flexibility with FreeBSD. Because even
> with pkg_add perfecting FreeBSD for desktop use is quite time
> consuming. Not to mention configuring a custom Kernel and building
> world.
>
> I would like to hear how others have managed to accomplish this.

sure it may take a little time, altho when it comes down to it it should
not take too long to build a kernel for example.  I have a dual pIII
server that can build a kernel in several min's.  If you have a SMP system
try using a command similar to this (assuming that no others are using the
box!!):

# make -j5 buildworld KERNCONF=MY_KERNEL

this will launch 5 make jobs, which will speed up some of the make tasks.

>
> I have look on articles that details how to move FreeBSD to a bigger
> disk and I think  this method may help. Any thoughts ?

"dd"


have fun!
-pete



-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866




From george  Thu Jan 13 19:08:59 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:08:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <7D2F6885-65C0-11D9-95C9-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 13, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 13, 2005, at 1:17 PM, G T wrote:
>
>> Here comes the Overkill - Ipod All-in-One Box! :D
>
> It is kindof an iPod on sterioids...
>

Or an iMac on diet pills?

g




From ike  Thu Jan 13 19:32:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:32:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <C3F0ABA3-65C3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 13, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> I'm just waiting for someone to mod one to look like an 80s lunch box, 
> it seems like it's about the same size.  Who will be the first on YOUR 
> block to have a Voltron Mac Mini?

Nah- I want an A-Team mini.

Rocket-
.ike




From o_sleep  Thu Jan 13 19:37:01 2005
From: o_sleep (O_Sleep)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:37:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>


> On Jan 13, 2005, at 17:36, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> On Jan 13, 2005, at 1:17 PM, G T wrote:
>>
>>> Here comes the Overkill - Ipod All-in-One Box! :D
>>
>> It is kindof an iPod on sterioids...
>
> I'm just waiting for someone to mod one to look like an 80s lunch box, 
> it seems like it's about the same size.  Who will be the first on YOUR 
> block to have a Voltron Mac Mini?
>
> -bob

Take note that this box isn't supposed to be user serviceable like the 
imac.  Course this hasn't stopped people before....

-Bjorn




From bob  Thu Jan 13 19:38:35 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:38:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
Message-ID: <A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 13, 2005, at 18:46, Pete Wright wrote:

> (sorry if this is a duplicate reply...despite my ability to offer 
> advice
> seems that still have problems sending email ;)
>
>>
>> Thanks for the tip pete, I have struggle with idea of which is better,
>> building from ports or pkg_add. I just think that when I build from
>> ports the program should work faster, although I have not been able to
>> prove that. I have pretty much given up on the g4u.
>>
>
> i was talking to a developer a while back (who was actually preparing a
> lecture on compiler optimisation) about this same topic.  I forwarded 
> the
> idea that one of the benefits of hand compiling software is that it 
> will
> run faster...seeing as how it's been built on my specific CPU/etc.  He
> responded that as long as the maintainer builds a package with sensable
> optimisation flags the benefits are really slim to nill.

Processor specific optimizations require processor specific 
optimization flags.  The benefits should be exactly nil unless the port 
system decides to set CFLAGS to something exotic (I think gentoo may do 
this).  The added bonus is that some compiler optimizations can break 
certain kinds of software in very hard to diagnose ways, where if you 
stick with the default or developer-provided optimization flags, you're 
safer (because they're extremely well tested with the software and with 
GCC, and because they're less likely to be dangerous).

>> I would love to have the same flexibility with FreeBSD. Because even
>> with pkg_add perfecting FreeBSD for desktop use is quite time
>> consuming. Not to mention configuring a custom Kernel and building
>> world.
>>
>> I would like to hear how others have managed to accomplish this.
>
> sure it may take a little time, altho when it comes down to it it 
> should
> not take too long to build a kernel for example.  I have a dual pIII
> server that can build a kernel in several min's.  If you have a SMP 
> system
> try using a command similar to this (assuming that no others are using 
> the
> box!!):
>
> # make -j5 buildworld KERNCONF=MY_KERNEL
>
> this will launch 5 make jobs, which will speed up some of the make 
> tasks.

Typically it's recommended to use -jN where N is the number of 
processors you actually have.  For values of N greater than the number 
of CPUs you have, it should actually go slower...  I would think that 
-j5 is slower than -j4 on a dual CPU system (though -j3 or -j4 might be 
a little faster than -j2 for some kinds of source, -j2 is always faster 
than -j1 on a dual processor system).

-bob




From pete  Thu Jan 13 19:45:07 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>


>>
>> # make -j5 buildworld KERNCONF=MY_KERNEL
>>
>> this will launch 5 make jobs, which will speed up some of the make
>> tasks.
>
> Typically it's recommended to use -jN where N is the number of
> processors you actually have.  For values of N greater than the number
> of CPUs you have, it should actually go slower...  I would think that
> -j5 is slower than -j4 on a dual CPU system (though -j3 or -j4 might be
> a little faster than -j2 for some kinds of source, -j2 is always faster
> than -j1 on a dual processor system).
>
> -bob
>

Just to prove that I'm not pulling this outta my a*s.  From the handbook
(granted it's from make buildworld...altho I've found this to work fine on
kernels for a long time now):

"It is now possible to specify a -j option to make which will cause it to
spawn several simultaneous processes. This is most useful on multi-CPU
machines. However, since much of the compiling process is IO bound rather
than CPU bound it is also useful on single CPU machines.

On a typical single-CPU machine you would run:

# make -j4 buildworld

make(1) will then have up to 4 processes running at any one time.
Empirical evidence posted to the mailing lists shows this generally gives
the best performance benefit.

If you have a multi-CPU machine and you are using an SMP configured kernel
try values between 6 and 10 and see how they speed things up.

Be aware that this is still somewhat experimental, and commits to the
source tree may occasionally break this feature. If the world fails to
compile using this parameter try again without it before you report any
problems."

-p

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866




From bob  Thu Jan 13 20:02:42 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:02:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
Message-ID: <FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 13, 2005, at 19:45, Pete Wright wrote:

>
>>>
>>> # make -j5 buildworld KERNCONF=MY_KERNEL
>>>
>>> this will launch 5 make jobs, which will speed up some of the make
>>> tasks.
>>
>> Typically it's recommended to use -jN where N is the number of
>> processors you actually have.  For values of N greater than the number
>> of CPUs you have, it should actually go slower...  I would think that
>> -j5 is slower than -j4 on a dual CPU system (though -j3 or -j4 might 
>> be
>> a little faster than -j2 for some kinds of source, -j2 is always 
>> faster
>> than -j1 on a dual processor system).
>
> Just to prove that I'm not pulling this outta my a*s.  From the 
> handbook
> (granted it's from make buildworld...altho I've found this to work 
> fine on
> kernels for a long time now):
>
> "It is now possible to specify a -j option to make which will cause it 
> to
> spawn several simultaneous processes. This is most useful on multi-CPU
> machines. However, since much of the compiling process is IO bound 
> rather
> than CPU bound it is also useful on single CPU machines.
>
> On a typical single-CPU machine you would run:
>
> # make -j4 buildworld
>
> make(1) will then have up to 4 processes running at any one time.
> Empirical evidence posted to the mailing lists shows this generally 
> gives
> the best performance benefit.
>
> If you have a multi-CPU machine and you are using an SMP configured 
> kernel
> try values between 6 and 10 and see how they speed things up.
>
> Be aware that this is still somewhat experimental, and commits to the
> source tree may occasionally break this feature. If the world fails to
> compile using this parameter try again without it before you report any
> problems."

Ok, I said "some kinds of source" for that reason.  It really depends 
(but it's universally true that N should be *at least* the number of 
CPUs you have).  In this case, they've tried it, and large numbers are 
good.  When I've tried -jN, I usually find that the optimal numbers 
aren't that large, but I'm compiling different things..

-bob




From ike  Thu Jan 13 21:23:25 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:23:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 13, 2005, at 7:37 PM, O_Sleep wrote:

> Take note that this box isn't supposed to be user serviceable like the 
> imac.  Course this hasn't stopped people before....
>
> -Bjorn

Yeah- on that note actually, I was looking at the RAM prices for it- 
1gb stick seems WAY the heck overpriced from Apple- I'm wondering if 
3rd party ram is kosher and available for the little rig?
(i.e. add 1gb from apple, +$425 whereas pricewatch gets the same specs 
ram for around $95 - BIG difference...)

I'd assume that a stick of 'PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SRAM' simply is what it 
is... quality is always an issue though, but(?)...

Rocket-
.ike




From spork  Thu Jan 13 22:03:41 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:03:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501132158250.1829@oof.local>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Yeah- on that note actually, I was looking at the RAM prices for it- 1gb 
> stick seems WAY the heck overpriced from Apple- I'm wondering if 3rd party 
> ram is kosher and available for the little rig?
> (i.e. add 1gb from apple, +$425 whereas pricewatch gets the same specs ram 
> for around $95 - BIG difference...)

It always is.  Never buy "Apple" memory.  My G5 has 1GB of Kingston from 
NewEgg in it.  Just carefully match all the specs (easily found with 
Crucial's "configurator") and then buy elsewhere.

> I'd assume that a stick of 'PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SRAM' simply is what it is... 
> quality is always an issue though, but(?)...

See above, and so far rumor is that you don't void the warranty if you 
don't break the case opening it up. :)

You can see a pic of the memory here:

http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html

Note all the little "tabs" pointing up to engage the other half of the 
case.

Also here's some more pictures of the thing:

http://www.macminute.com/2005/01/12/mac-mini-photos/

A guy out at MWSF says the aluminum sides are similar to the G5, the back 
is solid white plastic and the top resembles the iBook "clear plastic". 
When he ran system profiler it showed a Toshiba 2.5" drive.  Looking up 
the model number gave an 80GB 4200 RPM(booo!) drive.  I hope someone makes 
a matching/stacking firewire case to sit below it.

Charles

> Rocket-
> .ike
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Thu Jan 13 23:13:04 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:13:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501132158250.1829@oof.local>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501132158250.1829@oof.local>
Message-ID: <20050114041304.GB30255@sta.local>

On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 10:03:41PM -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>You can see a pic of the memory here:
>
>http://www.apple.com/macmini/design.html

pretty amazing they can say "Operating temperature: 50? to 95? F" with
that density! What's that? your cluster room is 90 degrees!!??

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From sunny-ml  Fri Jan 14 03:15:58 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 03:15:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200501140315.58327.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 13 January 2005 21:23, Isaac Levy wrote:

>
> Yeah- on that note actually, I was looking at the RAM prices for it-
> 1gb stick seems WAY the heck overpriced from Apple- I'm wondering if
> 3rd party ram is kosher and available for the little rig?
> (i.e. add 1gb from apple, +$425 whereas pricewatch gets the same specs
> ram for around $95 - BIG difference...)
>
> I'd assume that a stick of 'PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SRAM' simply is what it
> is... quality is always an issue though, but(?)...

I'm going to say what sounds like the obvious: the pricing is very much 
intentional.

The sales of these machines could easily eat away at their low end emac and 
imac machines.  So by charging lots for RAM and voiding your warrenty if you 
have non-authorized Apple folks add RAM to your system is an easy way of 
ensuring two pricing brackets exist.

(Also if you add a keyboard, mouse, usb-hub, and a monitor, that can easily 
run the 'average' person over 100 more to the price.)

Sunny Dubey



From o_sleep  Fri Jan 14 09:19:16 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:19:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <200501140315.58327.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200501140315.58327.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <459B8581-6637-11D9-894E-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>


On Jan 14, 2005, at 3:15 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Thursday 13 January 2005 21:23, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah- on that note actually, I was looking at the RAM prices for it-
>> 1gb stick seems WAY the heck overpriced from Apple- I'm wondering if
>> 3rd party ram is kosher and available for the little rig?
>> (i.e. add 1gb from apple, +$425 whereas pricewatch gets the same specs
>> ram for around $95 - BIG difference...)
>>
>> I'd assume that a stick of 'PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SRAM' simply is what 
>> it
>> is... quality is always an issue though, but(?)...
>
> I'm going to say what sounds like the obvious: the pricing is very much
> intentional.
>
> The sales of these machines could easily eat away at their low end 
> emac and
> imac machines.  So by charging lots for RAM and voiding your warrenty 
> if you
> have non-authorized Apple folks add RAM to your system is an easy way 
> of
> ensuring two pricing brackets exist.

They are only charging $75 to upgrade to 512M of memory.  This is more 
expensive then direct from a ram vendor but it's not enough to push it 
into another bracket.  Most people only need between 384 and 512M of 
ram to run their applications.  People that require 1g of ram will be 
running high end applications, but why would they get a mac mini then?

> (Also if you add a keyboard, mouse, usb-hub, and a monitor, that can 
> easily
> run the 'average' person over 100 more to the price.)

They are marketing this to people that have a pc and an ipod and want 
to see what the whole mac experience is all about.  They will have a 
keyboard, mouse, and monitor.  If they want, they can get a kvm, which 
is advertised on the mini mac's accessory list.

-Bjorn




From bschonhorst  Fri Jan 14 09:59:42 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:59:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] new iPod WARNING
Message-ID: <EBD73752-663C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>

Check this warning out:

http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and read footnote #2


-Brad




From ike  Fri Jan 14 10:08:08 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:08:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] new iPod WARNING
In-Reply-To: <EBD73752-663C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <EBD73752-663C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <197E9F26-663E-11D9-A528-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 14, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

> http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/
>
> Scroll down to the bottom of the page and read footnote #2

Oh- NM for me then.  Apple *almost* got this product right.  (I need to 
be able to eat whatever media has my crypto keys on in the event I um, 
need to).

Rocket-
.ike




From scottro  Fri Jan 14 10:15:57 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:15:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] new iPod WARNING
In-Reply-To: <197E9F26-663E-11D9-A528-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <EBD73752-663C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<197E9F26-663E-11D9-A528-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050114151556.GA8650@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 10:08:08AM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote:
> On Jan 14, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> 
> >http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/
> >
> >Scroll down to the bottom of the page and read footnote #2
> 
> Oh- NM for me then.  Apple *almost* got this product right.  (I need to 
> be able to eat whatever media has my crypto keys on in the event I um, 
> need to).

Somehow, it reminds me of one of the funnier bash.org quotes, to the
effect that they weren't saying stupidity should be outlawed, but one
should remove all warning labels and see who survives.


- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Buffy: Believe it or not, Jonathan, I understand about the
pain.
Jonathon: Oh, right. 'Cause the burden of being beautiful and
athletic, that's a crippler.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFB5+Is+lTVdes0Z9YRAvthAKCN/wbwcItBhZZFSZiyx9ZOgP49wwCgm/p0
pGzNxrKVN08c8biOH0uh1m4=
=IbuC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From bschonhorst  Fri Jan 14 10:18:06 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:18:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] new iPod WARNING
In-Reply-To: <197E9F26-663E-11D9-A528-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <EBD73752-663C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<197E9F26-663E-11D9-A528-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <7D9EE0C8-663F-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>

> On Jan 14, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>> http://www.apple.com/ipodshuffle/
>>
>> Scroll down to the bottom of the page and read footnote #2
>
> Oh- NM for me then.  Apple *almost* got this product right.  (I need 
> to be able to eat whatever media has my crypto keys on in the event I 
> um, need to).
>
>

To avoid any confusion, be sure to keep it away from your mini-mac 
lunch box




From george  Fri Jan 14 10:59:57 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:59:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <200501140315.58327.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200501140315.58327.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <20050114155957.GA1700@sta.local>

On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 03:15:58AM -0500, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>(Also if you add a keyboard, mouse, usb-hub, and a monitor, that can easily 
>run the 'average' person over 100 more to the price.)

Huh? I thought mice cost $100 each, and I still haven't figured out how
to get the left one working. <sigh>, as I process a 1GB memory RMA...

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From zaunere  Fri Jan 14 11:50:42 2005
From: zaunere (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:50:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail hack be warned
In-Reply-To: <b7625269050112161043997ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050114164645.9F71299B0@mailrelay.t-mobile.com>


> > I hope they clean this up soon..
> 
> Finally got around to writing my own test of this, but it appears that
> the gengineers have hacked something up to prevent you from opening
> any message with a mal-formed From: address.

Yay;

Q: How many PhD's does it take to handle a From: address? 

A: A Google!


---
Hans Zaunere
President, Founder
New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org

Gmail: The 1gb spam catcher 






From zaunere  Fri Jan 14 11:55:24 2005
From: zaunere (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:55:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php conflict from ports
In-Reply-To: <521731FD-64CE-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050114165127.F31B199B0@mailrelay.t-mobile.com>


> > hi all, have a question i am sure some of you came across already.
> >
> > i have a requirement to install php pear, but when trying to install
> > from ports it tells me that i must uninstall mod_php, if i uninstall
> > mod_php and then install pear me thinks that me can not reinstall
> > mod_php, how would i get apache to run with mod_php in that case.
> 
> Yuck.
> 
> Are you certain that the ports installer for php pear won't just
> reinstall mod_php clean?
> 
> Hrm.  After I just looked up pear, there's a LOT of ports for it.  This
> may be a good question for a nyphp list...
> 
> There may be an easy way around this that I can't see, but I'll throw
> in my .02? on the issue- running Apache/mods from Ports can become
> wicked complex (insane to maintain) when one has to incorporate new or
> different add-ons, (dependancy loops like this can become a puzzle much
> more time consuming than just installing Apache w. everything from
> sources...).

I agree.  I've never used ports to do Apache/PHP so I can't be much help.
The dependencies can get real rough, so I always compile AMP from source
(except MySQL, which I just install from the binaries from dev.mysql.com).


---
Hans Zaunere
President, Founder
New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org

Gmail: The 1gb spam catcher 







From ike  Sun Jan 16 06:47:36 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 06:47:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Panix Domain Hijacked
Message-ID: <6A61FB1C-67B4-11D9-99B1-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

For anyone who missed it on slashdot, looks like Panix, oldschool NY 
ISP with longstanding UNIX services, has had their domain hijacked:

http://www.panix.net/

:(

Rocket-
.ike




From george  Sun Jan 16 15:16:06 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:16:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: panix.com hijacked (VeriSign refuses to help)]
In-Reply-To: <1105861627.10895.697.camel@inferno>
References: <1105861627.10895.697.camel@inferno>
Message-ID: <20050116201606.GA22206@sta.local>

I'd like to see postal and email addresses, and general info from panix,
framed in such a way that *I* have the information I need to print and
mail a complaint. Addresses might include best contact at ICANN, IANA,
VeriSign and MELBOURNE.  Additionally I may write my own registrars
requesting that such an event not be allowed to happen to my domains.

For as many hoops as we all go through to keep our registrars in order,
I think it is in everybody's best interest to inquire about this issue
and participate in getting it resolved.

// George


On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 02:47:07AM -0500, Ron Guerin wrote:
>FYI: Someone has misappropriated the panix.com domain.
>This sort of thing could happen to you too.
>
>- Ron
>
>-------- Forwarded Message --------
>From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at NetBSD.org>
>To: nanog at merit.edu
>Subject: Re: panix.com hijacked (VeriSign refuses to help)
>Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:04:46 +0000
>Alexis Rosen tried to send this to NANOG earlier this evening but it
>looks like it never made it.  Apologies if it's a duplicate; we're
>both reduced to reading the list via the web interface since the
>legitimate addresses for panix.com have now timed out of most folks'
>nameservers and been replaced with the hijacker's records.
>
>Note that we contacted VeriSign both directly and through intermediaries
>well known to their ops staff, in both cases explaining that we suspect
>a security compromise (technical or human) of the registration systems
>either at MelbourneIT or at VeriSign itself (we have reasons to suspect
>this that I won't go into here right now).  We noted that after calling
>every publically available number for MelbourneIT and leaving polite
>messages, the only response we received was a rather rude brush-off from
>MelbourneIT's corporate counsel, who was evidently directed to call us
>by their CEO.
>
>We are also told that law enforcement separately contacted VeriSign on
>our behalf, to no avail.
>
>Below please find VeriSign's response to our plea for help.  We're rather
>at a loss as to what to do now; MelbourneIT clearly are beyond reach,
>VeriSign won't help, and Dotster just claim they still own the domain and
>that as far as they can tell nothing's wrong.  Panix may not survive this
>if the formal complaint and appeal procedure are the only way forward.
>
>> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:21:33 -0500
>> To: <alexis at panix.com>, NOC Supervisor <nocsupervisor at verisign.com>
>> Subject: Re: FW: [alexis at panix.com: Brief summary of panix.com hijacking incident]  (KMM2294267V49480L0KM)
>> From: VeriSign Customer Service <info at verisign-grs.com>
>> X-Mailer: KANA Response 7.0.1.127
>> 
>> Dear Alexis,
>> 
>> Thank you for contacting VeriSign Customer Service.
>> 
>> Unfortunately there is little that VeriSign, Inc. can do to rectify this
>> situation.  If necessary, Dotster (or Melbourne) is more than welcome to
>> contact us to obtain the specific details as to when the notices were
>> sent and other historical information about the transfer itself.
>> 
>> Dotster can file a Request for Enforcement if Melbourne IT contends that
>> the request was legitimate and we will review the dispute and respond
>> accordingly.  Dotster can also contact Melbourne directly and if they
>> come to an agreement that the transfer was fraudulent they can file a
>> Request for Reinstatement and the domain would be reinstated to its
>> original Registrar.  Dotster could submit a normal transfer request to 
>> Melbourne IT for the domain name and hope that Melbourne IT agrees to
>> transfer the name back to them outside of a dispute having been filed. 
>> In order to expedite processing the transfer or submitting a Request for
>> Reinstatement however Dotster will need to contact Melbourne IT
>> directly.  If Dotster is unable to get in touch with anyone at Melbourne
>> IT we can assist them directly if necessary.
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Melissa Blythe
>> Customer Service
>> VeriSign, Inc.
>> www.verisign.com
>> info at verisign-grs.com


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From lists  Mon Jan 17 16:10:52 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:10:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stability question
In-Reply-To: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
References: <41E6BC2B.2030804@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <20050117161043.F71233@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, steve wrote:

> in your opinion if 5.3 stable enough to be used as a production server of

What will it be doing?
What load?

> should one stick to 1.10

The servers I manage are very low traffic/load.. and I have been moving 
them to 5.3.. BUT depending on your scenario the advise may change.

If you tell more of your plans others can probably give better advise.

I think either 4.X Stable or 5.X Stable are good choices, however I find 
that given the difference in them that the sooner one starts to use 5.X 
the better.. but that's just me..

By difference I mean minute details like configuration files, etc.. It 
didn't take me long when moved to 5.3 to find what I needed, but it was 
different from the 4.x.. example.. Some ports now require that you put a 
flag in /etc/rc.conf.. that little detail could send you on a 15 to 30 
minute trip down the google lane.. while you discover that you should have 
looked at /usr/ports/UPGRADES. :-)... which is also new to 5.X



From lists  Mon Jan 17 16:13:11 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:13:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] generating keys with filezilla, winscp and putty
In-Reply-To: <OFAD56015D.589B21B1-ON85256F87.005F2CA1-85256F87.005F6285@us.ibm.com>
References: <OFAD56015D.589B21B1-ON85256F87.005F2CA1-85256F87.005F6285@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20050117161221.R71233@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Daniel Krook wrote:

> As for Pageant, I need to fire it up and add the key everytime I reboot my
> machine.  There's probably a way to automate this, but I never set it up.


A shortcut on the "Startup" folder should do the trick, if you want it 
started upon login (or is it bootup.. can't remember)



From john  Tue Jan 18 01:48:20 2005
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 01:48:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
Message-ID: <200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>

Are you guys aware of this? Dang.

I have been seeing an odd paucity from source-changes at cvs.openbsd 
on-and-off, recently. Might be related, probably not, that list server 
is in the US.

	John

On Monday 17 January 2005 03:29 pm, David Farber wrote:
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei at rsasecurity.com>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:10:39 -0500
> To: <dave at farber.net>
> Subject: Verizon blocks European email by default.
>
> For IP, if you wish.
>
> Verizon has taken to blocking all email from Europe, in an
> attempt to reduce spam.
>
> Quote from Verizon to Wired: "If it's really important
> you might want to make a phone call."
>
> Peter Trei
>
> --------------------------
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/14/verizon_email_block/
>
> US ISP Verizon is persisting with a controversial policy of
> blocking email sent from Europe. Since 22 December, mail
> servers at verizon.net have been configured not to accept
> connections from Europe by default.
>
> [...]
>
> Paul Wood, chief information analyst at email security firm
> MessageLabs, said it took Verizon two days to whitelist the
> IP addresses of its European messaging servers from the time
> it first complained its international users were having
> problems sending email to customers of the US ISP.
>
> [...]
>
> Verizon three million DSL customers waiting for emails
> from Europe were advised to use alternative forms of
> communication. "If it's really important you might want
> to make a phone call," he said.
>
> [1]http://www.wired.com/news/ebiz/0,1272,66226,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_
>3
>
>
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>
>
> -------------------------------------
> Archives at:
> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From ike  Tue Jan 18 08:54:37 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:54:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
Message-ID: <7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 1:48 AM, John Bacall wrote:

> Are you guys aware of this? Dang.
>
> I have been seeing an odd paucity from source-changes at cvs.openbsd
> on-and-off, recently. Might be related, probably not, that list server
> is in the US.
>
> 	John
>
> On Monday 17 January 2005 03:29 pm, David Farber wrote:
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei at rsasecurity.com>
>> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:10:39 -0500
>> To: <dave at farber.net>
>> Subject: Verizon blocks European email by default.
>>
>> For IP, if you wish.
>>
>> Verizon has taken to blocking all email from Europe, in an
>> attempt to reduce spam.
>>
>> Quote from Verizon to Wired: "If it's really important
>> you might want to make a phone call."
>>
>> Peter Trei
>>
>> --------------------------
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/14/verizon_email_block/
>>
>> US ISP Verizon is persisting with a controversial policy of
>> blocking email sent from Europe. Since 22 December, mail
>> servers at verizon.net have been configured not to accept
>> connections from Europe by default.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Paul Wood, chief information analyst at email security firm
>> MessageLabs, said it took Verizon two days to whitelist the
>> IP addresses of its European messaging servers from the time
>> it first complained its international users were having
>> problems sending email to customers of the US ISP.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Verizon three million DSL customers waiting for emails
>> from Europe were advised to use alternative forms of
>> communication. "If it's really important you might want
>> to make a phone call," he said.
>>
>> [1]http://www.wired.com/news/ebiz/0,1272,66226,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_
>> 3
>>
>>
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------
>> Archives at:
>> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

What the heck can we all do about this?  It's beyond ridiculous.

Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Tue Jan 18 09:00:22 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:00:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:54:37 -0500
Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:


> What the heck can we all do about this?  It's beyond ridiculous.
> 
> Rocket-
> .ike
> 

Do not use a verizon email account... use something else.

-- 
---



From george  Tue Jan 18 09:17:09 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:17:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <A3912412-695B-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:00 AM, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:54:37 -0500
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
>
>> What the heck can we all do about this?  It's beyond ridiculous.
>>
>> Rocket-
>> .ike
>>
>
> Do not use a verizon email account... use something else.
>

It does explain a lot to me. . .

Thanks John. . .

and 'dang' is right.

g




From ike  Tue Jan 18 09:20:01 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:20:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:00 AM, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:54:37 -0500
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
>
>> What the heck can we all do about this?  It's beyond ridiculous.
>>
>> Rocket-
>> .ike
>>
>
> Do not use a verizon email account... use something else.

Something else like..... So how about all of us separate from the 
internet alltogether and form our own network, an ipsec layer across 
the internet where we run our own mail, our own everything? :)

I'm kindof not kidding-

Rocket-
.ike




From tillman  Tue Jan 18 09:37:40 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:37:40 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050118143740.GE80831@seekingfire.com>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 09:20:01AM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Something else like..... So how about all of us separate from the 
> internet alltogether and form our own network, an ipsec layer across 
> the internet where we run our own mail, our own everything? :)

I think it's a great idea.

'Course, I'm biased ;-)
http://www.seekingfire.com/projects/metanetwork/info.html

> I'm kindof not kidding-

We already have Internet2 as an Internet for a certain class of user.
I'd like an old-school Internet back as well.

-T


-- 
Enlightenment is not something you achieve. It is the absence of something.
All your life you have been going forward after something, pursuing some goal.
Enlightenment is dropping all that.
	Charlotte Joko Beck



From lists  Tue Jan 18 09:37:28 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:37:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050118093728.374fb8c9@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:20:01 -0500
Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:

> Something else like..... So how about all of us separate from the 
> internet alltogether and form our own network, an ipsec layer across 
> the internet where we run our own mail, our own everything? :)
> 
> I'm kindof not kidding-
> 

That would cut down on a lot of spam!
Michael

-- 
---



From george  Tue Jan 18 09:42:39 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:42:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <20050118093728.374fb8c9@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118093728.374fb8c9@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <33EBC8F8-695F-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:37 AM, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:20:01 -0500
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
>> Something else like..... So how about all of us separate from the
>> internet alltogether and form our own network, an ipsec layer across
>> the internet where we run our own mail, our own everything? :)
>>
>> I'm kindof not kidding-
>>
>
> That would cut down on a lot of spam!
> Michael
>

But I'd probably still get emails from Ike, which is synonymous.

;-'

g




From ike  Tue Jan 18 09:47:21 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:47:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <20050118143740.GE80831@seekingfire.com>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118143740.GE80831@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <DBB6CD90-695F-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:37 AM, Tillman Hodgson wrote:

> 'Course, I'm biased ;-)
> http://www.seekingfire.com/projects/metanetwork/info.html
>
>> I'm kindof not kidding-
>
> We already have Internet2 as an Internet for a certain class of user.
> I'd like an old-school Internet back as well.
>
> -T

HOT. Hot Hot Hot.  I like this...

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Tue Jan 18 09:49:05 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:49:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <33EBC8F8-695F-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118093728.374fb8c9@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<33EBC8F8-695F-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <19DF4016-6960-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:42 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>> That would cut down on a lot of spam!
>> Michael
>>
>
> But I'd probably still get emails from Ike, which is synonymous.
>
> ;-'
>
> g

/me starts pinging 6mb packets at sddi.net, picks up a (real) baseball 
bat, and goes to the G-train...

:P
.ike




From george  Tue Jan 18 10:15:53 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:15:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <19DF4016-6960-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118093728.374fb8c9@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<33EBC8F8-695F-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<19DF4016-6960-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <D84B6E67-6963-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:49 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:42 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
>>> That would cut down on a lot of spam!
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>> But I'd probably still get emails from Ike, which is synonymous.
>>
>> ;-'
>>
>> g
>
> /me starts pinging 6mb packets at sddi.net, picks up a (real) baseball 
> bat, and goes to the G-train...
>

It snowed yesterday 2", so the G train won't be running until Friday, 
at least.




From ike  Tue Jan 18 10:26:02 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:26:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [IP] Verizon blocks European email by default.
In-Reply-To: <D84B6E67-6963-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE118A68.FB0A%dave@farber.net>
	<200501180148.20235.john@unixen.org>
	<7E10B23A-6958-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118090022.2d1bc954@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<0A2F2971-695C-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118093728.374fb8c9@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<33EBC8F8-695F-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<19DF4016-6960-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<D84B6E67-6963-11D9-A76B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <43893572-6965-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 10:15 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>> /me starts pinging 6mb packets at sddi.net, picks up a (real) 
>> baseball bat, and goes to the G-train...
>>
>
> It snowed yesterday 2", so the G train won't be running until Friday, 
> at least.

/me has to get out and off these keys more :)

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Tue Jan 18 11:54:48 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:54:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
Message-ID: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

So I've got a hardware question some folks here may find fun.

I'm looking to replace my home-office soho type router.  For a long 
time I've used an ADSL 'router' provided by my ISP, which basically 
does NAT and DHCP, and does it quite simply and reliably.  With that, 
this thing is aging, and perhaps dying after a few years of solid 
service- and I'm looking at options...

Biggest requirement: the router must simply run, with as little 
ike-interaction as possible, as not to disrupt my other regular work.

Option Ideas:

1) Soekris/OpenBSD/pf-NAT:
I'd love to rock out with a soekris box, and OpenBSD is 
luscious/fun/obvious for a router/firewall, BUT, since I work from 
home, I can't have any downtime managing the thing by myself- and don't 
really sanely seeing myself making time to mess around- (I have other 
code and sw to work with for work and pleasure...)  Also, to ensure it 
stays up, (as I'm not sure I trust myself yet to run the little 
buggers, they're quite different than the servers I'm used to), I'd be 
inclined to buy two of them- so the price goes up for this simple task 
for me...  I'd really love to do some Soekris for the sake of it, but I 
really just don't have time to go there right now...

2) Prefab/SOHO-stuff:
The off-the-shelf options from NetGear and D-Link and etc. crudola- all 
look a bit daunting, insomuch as soho stuff can vary in quality pretty 
extremely, and I'm not real fond of all the whiz-bang features- (I've 
seen some web interfaces for client stuff that makes me sick to my 
stomach from a security and use perspective...)
The only thing that brings me to this option is simplicity of setup and 
use- so I can continue to focus on administering systems that really 
mean something to me, and hacking software that I *want* to hack...

3) Soekris-with-m0n0wall:
I'm downloading m0n0wall to give it a shot on another box here, but 
does anyone here have experience using this thing?  My fear is that I'd 
not only be hacking the system on a regular basis, but that I'd have to 
learn about hacking things 'the m0n0wall way', which I'm not 
necessarily interested in...  Though it looks like a contender due to 
simplicity of setup factor, *and* it's BSD :)

While I'm hemming and hawing here, does anyone have any good words/urls 
on this topic?

Rocket-
.ike




From bschonhorst  Tue Jan 18 12:23:53 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:23:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>


On Jan 18, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> So I've got a hardware question some folks here may find fun.
>
> I'm looking to replace my home-office soho type router.  For a long 
> time I've used an ADSL 'router' provided by my ISP, which basically 
> does NAT and DHCP, and does it quite simply and reliably.  With that, 
> this thing is aging, and perhaps dying after a few years of solid 
> service- and I'm looking at options...
>
> Biggest requirement: the router must simply run, with as little 
> ike-interaction as possible, as not to disrupt my other regular work.
>
>

Although not as professional looking as a little Soekris, you could 
just use an old (reliable) PC and drop a few ethernet cards in and run 
OpenBSD without spending the time prepping the Soekris stuff (CF I 
assume)


-brad




From ike  Tue Jan 18 12:27:14 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:27:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:23 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

>
> Although not as professional looking as a little Soekris, you could 
> just use an old (reliable) PC and drop a few ethernet cards in and run 
> OpenBSD without spending the time prepping the Soekris stuff (CF I 
> assume)
>
>
> -brad

Thx- yeah, actually, I should just give this option a shot first and 
see how it all feels...  I'm not so afraid of a monsterous-looking 
contraption, and actually anyone who's been in my office would know I'm 
right at home with wires and blinking lights...  /me starts rummaging 
through boxes for spare nics...

Rocket-
.ike




From bschonhorst  Tue Jan 18 12:34:16 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:34:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>


On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:27 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:23 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>>
>> Although not as professional looking as a little Soekris, you could 
>> just use an old (reliable) PC and drop a few ethernet cards in and 
>> run OpenBSD without spending the time prepping the Soekris stuff (CF 
>> I assume)
>>
>>
>> -brad
>
> Thx- yeah, actually, I should just give this option a shot first and 
> see how it all feels...  I'm not so afraid of a monsterous-looking 
> contraption, and actually anyone who's been in my office would know 
> I'm right at home with wires and blinking lights...  /me starts 
> rummaging through boxes for spare nics...
>

Yeah-  I get a great deal  of satisfaction (perhaps too much) out of 
being able to make use of those old pc's on the shelf that just collect 
dust, re-cycle the planet or whatever they say....




From marco  Tue Jan 18 12:44:50 2005
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:44:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 12:34:16PM -0500, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>
>Yeah-  I get a great deal  of satisfaction (perhaps too much) out of 
>being able to make use of those old pc's on the shelf that just collect 
>dust, re-cycle the planet or whatever they say....
>

Yes I have more and more old-pcs (and even a nubus mac running mklinux)
performing different functions here, of course my electric bill seems to
go up every month... as does the noise level in the apartment ...

-- 
Marco



From pete  Tue Jan 18 12:51:05 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:51:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <20050118175105.GA4549@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 12:23:53PM -0500, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> 
> On Jan 18, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> >Hi All,
> >
> >So I've got a hardware question some folks here may find fun.
> >
> >I'm looking to replace my home-office soho type router.  For a long 
> >time I've used an ADSL 'router' provided by my ISP, which basically 
> >does NAT and DHCP, and does it quite simply and reliably.  With that, 
> >this thing is aging, and perhaps dying after a few years of solid 
> >service- and I'm looking at options...
> >
> >Biggest requirement: the router must simply run, with as little 
> >ike-interaction as possible, as not to disrupt my other regular work.
> >
> >
> 
> Although not as professional looking as a little Soekris, you could 
> just use an old (reliable) PC and drop a few ethernet cards in and run 
> OpenBSD without spending the time prepping the Soekris stuff (CF I 
> assume)
> 

this is pretty much what i did before i migrated my setup to soekris/obsd.
the added benefit was that i had a working pf ruleset running before i brought
the soekris box into my setup.  so when i started hacking on pxebooting the
sucker, getting pf running was not an issue.  honestly tho, after working
on several different NAT/Firewall solutions on different platforms I 
really think that PF is the only way to go if you need mucho uptime
and don't want to have to spend too much time learning wierd ruleset
syntax (cough iptables ;) or throw in the towel and use a sketchy web 
interface.

-pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Tue Jan 18 12:53:54 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:53:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] phishing reporting on gmail
Message-ID: <20050118175354.GB4549@finn.nomadlogic.org>

hey am i crazy or did gmail used to have a widget somewhere that would
allow you to report a phishing email?  just curious b/c i've gotten
a couple recently and would like to report them to the admin....


-pete

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From lists  Tue Jan 18 12:58:47 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:58:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>
Message-ID: <20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>

You already know what the answer is when you ask a unix mailing list if
you should build vs. buy.

I do not disagree with re-using boxes and I own a soekris.  Those are
great solutions.  Especially if you want to learn, or, really care about
how you route and filter packets.

But from what I read in your message, you may be better with a cheap
NETGEAR router.  They have good features, solid construction, and a web
interface your mama could configure.

You plug it in, input a few settings, and you are back to what ever you
were doing in no time.  


Michael


-- 
---



From george  Tue Jan 18 13:15:50 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:15:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>
	<20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20050118181550.GA8893@sta.local>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 12:58:47PM -0500, michael wrote:
>You already know what the answer is when you ask a unix mailing list if
>you should build vs. buy.
>
>I do not disagree with re-using boxes and I own a soekris.  Those are
>great solutions.  Especially if you want to learn, or, really care about
>how you route and filter packets.
>
>But from what I read in your message, you may be better with a cheap
>NETGEAR router.  They have good features, solid construction, and a web
>interface your mama could configure.
>
>You plug it in, input a few settings, and you are back to what ever you
>were doing in no time.  

In a nutshell, sysadmins don't have time for programming, and security
specialists don't have time for sysadmins. Of course each needs to be on
the ball with the other two, but it boils down to choose your poison.

If you don't want the nuts and bolts of your own firewall setup, which
some choose as a career, I'd say go with a soho dedicated hardware. Some
very fancy ones (vpn, etc) can be had for cheap on ebay.

of course, I'm using a 250Mhz PII, but that's because it's setup and
keeps on working...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From ike  Tue Jan 18 13:16:39 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:16:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>
	<20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <1929116A-697D-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:58 PM, michael wrote:

> But from what I read in your message, you may be better with a cheap
> NETGEAR router.  They have good features, solid construction, and a web
> interface your mama could configure.


On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:51 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> if you need mucho uptime
> and don't want to have to spend too much time learning wierd ruleset
> syntax (cough iptables ;) or throw in the towel and use a sketchy web
> interface.


On Jan 18, 2005, at 12:44 PM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> of course my electric bill seems to
> go up every month... as does the noise level in the apartment ...


Thanks for the food for thought everybody!  I totally appreciate the 
responses- helping me think through what I want to do before I spend 
any time or money...

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Tue Jan 18 13:19:18 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:19:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050118181550.GA8893@sta.local>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>
	<20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<20050118181550.GA8893@sta.local>
Message-ID: <77E95736-697D-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 18, 2005, at 1:15 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> If you don't want the nuts and bolts of your own firewall setup, which
> some choose as a career, I'd say go with a soho dedicated hardware.

Very well stated, funny thing is that I'm somewhat on the fence here 
with this- seeing as I don't build firewalls for a living, and am more 
on the Dev side than SA side of things- but...  hrm...

Rocket-
.ike




From o_sleep  Tue Jan 18 13:52:22 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:52:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<B9F72486-6975-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<316F2B88-6976-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2D7412D8-6977-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<20050118174449.GJ16925@metm.org>
	<20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <16746152-6982-11D9-9C02-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>


> But from what I read in your message, you may be better with a cheap
> NETGEAR router.  They have good features, solid construction, and a web
> interface your mama could configure.

I wouldn't recommend netgear:
Netgear received some bad press for hard setting all their routers to 
one public ntp server.  They also got into trouble for having a 
backdoor password.  When everyone made a stink about it, their solution 
was to just change the backdoor password.

I have used a couple linksys routers, but wouldn't recommend them 
either.  I am still waiting for a stable firmware version that does 
everything the retail box says the router will do.  Besides that I have 
noticed some generally network connectivity flakiness, which I can't 
pin down but can only guess is the linksys router.

The apple routers have been very stable.  Their graphite had a problem 
with an early capacitor lifetime.  Had to replace it, besides that 
works fine for three years.  It even supports snmpwalks (as opposed to 
simple snmptraps that the linksys is limited to).

-Bjorn




From sunny-ml  Tue Jan 18 14:13:52 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:13:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <16746152-6982-11D9-9C02-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050118125847.1b268e11@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<16746152-6982-11D9-9C02-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <200501181413.52816.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

hey all

if we're going to talk about consumer-family-routers, I highly recommend 
D-link routers.  I've had nothing but good luck with them.  And many of their 
routers have an online emulator, so you can 'use' the router before you ever 
buy it.

On Tuesday 18 January 2005 13:52, Bjorn Nelson wrote:

> I have used a couple linksys routers, but wouldn't recommend them
> either.  I am still waiting for a stable firmware version that does
> everything the retail box says the router will do.  Besides that I have
> noticed some generally network connectivity flakiness, which I can't
> pin down but can only guess is the linksys router.

I'd recommend Linksys routers.  (If you don't mind running linux ... ) for 50 
bucks you get a router with a 4 port switch, 1 port uplink, 802.11b/g 
support, and everything the linux kernel/tools support, with a fine selection 
of OSS 3rd party firmwares.  Its not PF, but hey ... something beats 
nothing .. heh

cool

keep warm folks!

Sunny



From bschonhorst  Tue Jan 18 14:25:29 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:25:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] phishing reporting on gmail
In-Reply-To: <20050118175354.GB4549@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050118175354.GB4549@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <B6704F24-6986-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>

> hey am i crazy or did gmail used to have a widget somewhere that would
> allow you to report a phishing email?  just curious b/c i've gotten
> a couple recently and would like to report them to the admin....

Yeah, for some reason they hide it.  You have to click on the "Show 
Options" link to the right of the screen which provides you with 
options including the "Report Phising" link.

-Brad




From jbaltz  Tue Jan 18 14:28:11 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:28:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <41ED634B.8020609@omnipod.com>

On 1/18/2005 11:54 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> So I've got a hardware question some folks here may find fun.

[...story of woe...]

Data points:

- We use a m0n0wall here at my office for various and sundry things, and 
it's a bit squirrelly to set up, but it is featureful and does a lot of 
weirdo stuff that we need.

- I just bought and installed an Asante' firewall/router COTS box for my 
in-laws. The hardest part of dealing with that box was routing the power 
cable to their extension cord. I plugged it in, and it worked. Just like 
that. The web interface is >eh< but unless you're doing a lot of custom 
stuff (port redirects, etc.) something like this is fine.

- At home I run an oldskool Netgear FP114. It, too, "Just Works". Before 
I moved in November, it had been up since the power came back on in 
August 2003. (15 months, is that right?).

> Biggest requirement: the router must simply run, with as little 
> ike-interaction as possible, as not to disrupt my other regular work.

Given this, and the cost (these firewall gizmos are under $50 now) 
unless you really just want the 1337-factor of building your own, just buy.

> .ike

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at omnipod.com    +1 646 230 8750
Thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.




From pete  Tue Jan 18 15:36:00 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:36:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] phishing reporting on gmail
In-Reply-To: <B6704F24-6986-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <20050118175354.GB4549@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<B6704F24-6986-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <20050118203600.GA20104@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 02:25:29PM -0500, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
> >hey am i crazy or did gmail used to have a widget somewhere that would
> >allow you to report a phishing email?  just curious b/c i've gotten
> >a couple recently and would like to report them to the admin....
> 
> Yeah, for some reason they hide it.  You have to click on the "Show 
> Options" link to the right of the screen which provides you with 
> options including the "Report Phising" link.
> 

cool thanks for the reply's everyone found it!

-p 

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Tue Jan 18 17:59:15 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:59:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance was:  Re: talk Digest, Vol 14,
	Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 08:02:42PM -0500, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> 
> On Jan 13, 2005, at 19:45, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> >
> >>>
> >>># make -j5 buildworld KERNCONF=MY_KERNEL
> >>>
> >>>this will launch 5 make jobs, which will speed up some of the make
> >>>tasks.
> >>
> >>Typically it's recommended to use -jN where N is the number of
> >>processors you actually have.  For values of N greater than the number
> >>of CPUs you have, it should actually go slower...  I would think that
> >>-j5 is slower than -j4 on a dual CPU system (though -j3 or -j4 might 
> >>be
> >>a little faster than -j2 for some kinds of source, -j2 is always 
> >>faster
> >>than -j1 on a dual processor system).
> >
> >Just to prove that I'm not pulling this outta my a*s.  From the 
> >handbook
> >(granted it's from make buildworld...altho I've found this to work 
> >fine on
> >kernels for a long time now):
> >
> >"It is now possible to specify a -j option to make which will cause it 
> >to
> >spawn several simultaneous processes. This is most useful on multi-CPU
> >machines. However, since much of the compiling process is IO bound 
> >rather
> >than CPU bound it is also useful on single CPU machines.
> >
> >On a typical single-CPU machine you would run:
> >
> ># make -j4 buildworld
> >
> >make(1) will then have up to 4 processes running at any one time.
> >Empirical evidence posted to the mailing lists shows this generally 
> >gives
> >the best performance benefit.
> >
> >If you have a multi-CPU machine and you are using an SMP configured 
> >kernel
> >try values between 6 and 10 and see how they speed things up.
> >
> >Be aware that this is still somewhat experimental, and commits to the
> >source tree may occasionally break this feature. If the world fails to
> >compile using this parameter try again without it before you report any
> >problems."
> 
> Ok, I said "some kinds of source" for that reason.  It really depends 
> (but it's universally true that N should be *at least* the number of 
> CPUs you have).  In this case, they've tried it, and large numbers are 
> good.  When I've tried -jN, I usually find that the optimal numbers 
> aren't that large, but I'm compiling different things..
> 
> -bob
> 



Hey bob all,
	so instead of relying on blind faith I ran some tests to see the truth
in the make -jN statements in the FreeBSD handbook.  While I agree with what 
bob stated regarding the "-j" flag I thought that maybe there was something in
the makeworld process that got around these issues.  Well I hacked up a small
shell script to test this out and the findings were not what I expected (and 
frankly not what I remember experiencing in the past).  The make times flattened
out after make -j2 buildworld on an SMP system running 5.3.  I've posted a pretty detailed
post to freebsd-stable@ and hope to get some feedback.  I'll keep you all posted
here as well if you all are interested.


-pete

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From megan.restuccia  Tue Jan 18 19:41:35 2005
From: megan.restuccia (Megan Restuccia)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:41:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introduction to XSAN at the Apple SoHo Store
Message-ID: <20050119004135.NTSQ28025.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>

For all interested - this seems interesting...

Megan 



I just wanted to make you aware that there is an event at the Apple SoHo
store to introduce Apple?s new XSAN storage area network solution. I will be
attending the event on January 25th, but it is being hosted on both the 24th
AND 25th at 8PM. I hope you are able to make it.

Xsan For the Enterprise and Video Markets

Overview of solutions and deployment scenarios that are now available with
Xsan?s release within the enterprise and video market.
January 24 and 25, 8:00 p.m.

http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/week/20050102.html

Best Regards,
Steve


-- 





From george  Tue Jan 18 20:21:51 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:21:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introduction to XSAN at the Apple SoHo Store
In-Reply-To: <20050119004135.NTSQ28025.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
References: <20050119004135.NTSQ28025.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7F70A6D2-69B8-11D9-AC54-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 18, 2005, at 7:41 PM, Megan Restuccia wrote:

> For all interested - this seems interesting...
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> I just wanted to make you aware that there is an event at the Apple 
> SoHo
> store to introduce Apple?s new XSAN storage area network solution. I 
> will be
> attending the event on January 25th, but it is being hosted on both 
> the 24th
> AND 25th at 8PM. I hope you are able to make it.
>
> Xsan For the Enterprise and Video Markets
>
> Overview of solutions and deployment scenarios that are now available 
> with
> Xsan?s release within the enterprise and video market.
> January 24 and 25, 8:00 p.m.
>
> http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/week/20050102.html
>
> Best Regards,
> Steve
>

Fancy. . .

Pete, you flying back here for this?  Weren't you trying to get to one 
of these?

g




From pete  Tue Jan 18 20:28:31 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:28:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introduction to XSAN at the Apple SoHo Store
In-Reply-To: <7F70A6D2-69B8-11D9-AC54-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <20050119004135.NTSQ28025.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
	<7F70A6D2-69B8-11D9-AC54-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050119012831.GD20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 08:21:51PM -0500, G. Rosamond 
> >
> >http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/week/20050102.html
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >Steve
> >
> 
> Fancy. . .
> 
> Pete, you flying back here for this?  Weren't you trying to get to one 
> of these?
> 
> g

yea click3x got one of these for better or worse (The XRAID).  they do look nice...
altho the management utilites kinda are lacking and obviously we were
forced to use HFS+...ouch.  from a hardware perspective the cases are pretty
nice, altho I still am not convinced in with SATA tech. yet.  i followed the 
developments of the XSan FS pretty closely, and it does look interesting.  
altho in hindsight i'd probably not go with one of these guy's again, 
even with the XSan FS.  what's interesting is when we were trying to get an
XRAID from apple they didn't give us the time of day...and now here they are 
trying to push this as a video solution.  as far as the enterprise buzz word...
while I'm sure it's possible (anything is) i would not bet the company data
on it just yet, but that goes for any new new tech.


-p

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From branto  Tue Jan 18 21:10:26 2005
From: branto (Brant I. Stevens)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:10:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <41ED634B.8020609@omnipod.com>
Message-ID: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>

I'd recommend a Linksys WRT54GS...  Drop the default firmware and use
OpenWRT, though it is based on the L-word.

http://www.openwrt.org



On 01/18/2005 02:28 PM, "Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz at omnipod.com> wrote:

> On 1/18/2005 11:54 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>> So I've got a hardware question some folks here may find fun.
> 
> [...story of woe...]
> 
> Data points:
> 
> - We use a m0n0wall here at my office for various and sundry things, and
> it's a bit squirrelly to set up, but it is featureful and does a lot of
> weirdo stuff that we need.
> 
> - I just bought and installed an Asante' firewall/router COTS box for my
> in-laws. The hardest part of dealing with that box was routing the power
> cable to their extension cord. I plugged it in, and it worked. Just like
> that. The web interface is >eh< but unless you're doing a lot of custom
> stuff (port redirects, etc.) something like this is fine.
> 
> - At home I run an oldskool Netgear FP114. It, too, "Just Works". Before
> I moved in November, it had been up since the power came back on in
> August 2003. (15 months, is that right?).
> 
>> Biggest requirement: the router must simply run, with as little
>> ike-interaction as possible, as not to disrupt my other regular work.
> 
> Given this, and the cost (these firewall gizmos are under $50 now)
> unless you really just want the 1337-factor of building your own, just buy.
> 
>> .ike
> 
> //jbaltz
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From george  Tue Jan 18 23:13:24 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:13:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] more about OBSD 3.6 on the iMac
Message-ID: <765DE3D2-69D0-11D9-AC54-000D9328615E@sddi.net>

Btw, some insight into the issues. . .

Running XFCE4 for it. . . very nice. . . it's functioning as an always 
on BSD box that's quiet, compact and physically unobtrusive for nmap, 
ssh, gaim, etc.

No graphical browser works from OBSD ports, except Konqueror-embedded.  
It's the first time I've used the stand-alone, and it's fine.  Works 
just like coffee works for me: light and sweet.

cvsup is *not* ported to macppc on OBSD, but cvsync is. . . . haven't 
tried it out yet, but let others know.  From the OBSD-ppc archives, 
someone noted that it seems faster than cvsup.

I'll also post the nice MacBSD desktop image I have to the site at some 
point. . . email me offlist if you want it.  it's only 43k.

George




From ike  Wed Jan 19 08:23:15 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:23:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>
Message-ID: <469F0ABC-6A1D-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup All,

On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Brant I. Stevens wrote:

> I'd recommend a Linksys WRT54GS...  Drop the default firmware and use
> OpenWRT, though it is based on the L-word.
>
> http://www.openwrt.org

I gotta say- this has been a cool thread for a tangental reason- I'm 
actually really surprised at the variety of solutions that folks have 
posted and experienced.  I would have never thought this (basic) 
question would have received such varied and cool examples for 
solutions.  Thanks All!

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Wed Jan 19 08:31:19 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:31:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <671131BD-6A1E-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Regurgitating this for the Record on this thread,

On Jan 13, 2005, at 9:23 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Yeah- on that note actually, I was looking at the RAM prices for it-  
> 1gb stick seems WAY the heck overpriced from Apple- I'm wondering if  
> 3rd party ram is kosher and available for the little rig?
> (i.e. add 1gb from apple, +$425 whereas pricewatch gets the same specs  
> ram for around $95 - BIG difference...)
>
> I'd assume that a stick of 'PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SRAM' simply is what  
> it is... quality is always an issue though, but(?)...


Thanks slasdhdot for posting links to 'cracking open a Mac mini safely'  
(remember, it DOES void AppleCare):

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/01/19/036200.shtml? 
tid=174&tid=137&tid=99&tid=3

--
The links from the article, for the record:

http://www.smashsworld.com/2005/01/taking-apart-mac-mini-how-to.php
700kb Quicktime How-To movie:
http://www.smashsworld.com/2005/01/taking-apart-mac-mini-how-to.php
http://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/

Rocket-
.ike




From jbaltz  Wed Jan 19 10:10:37 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:10:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>
Message-ID: <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>

On 1/18/2005 9:10 PM, Brant I. Stevens wrote:
> I'd recommend a Linksys WRT54GS...  Drop the default firmware and use
> OpenWRT, though it is based on the L-word.
> http://www.openwrt.org

Violates the requirement to have as little interaction as possible. Use 
the WRT54GS as it stands; it's a fine little box.

Really, with the COTS boxes, you spend more time simply removing the 
wrapping than you do with setup. They're deny all inbound by default, 
permit all outbound, and Just Work.

And they're cheaper than the soekris units.

Like I said before, if you're the type who buys tobacco and rolling 
papers, build. Else, buy.

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at omnipod.com    +1 646 230 8750
Thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.




From george  Wed Jan 19 10:18:18 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:18:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
Message-ID: <5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:10 AM, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> On 1/18/2005 9:10 PM, Brant I. Stevens wrote:
>> I'd recommend a Linksys WRT54GS...  Drop the default firmware and use
>> OpenWRT, though it is based on the L-word.
>> http://www.openwrt.org
>
> Violates the requirement to have as little interaction as possible. 
> Use the WRT54GS as it stands; it's a fine little box.
>
> Really, with the COTS boxes, you spend more time simply removing the 
> wrapping than you do with setup. They're deny all inbound by default, 
> permit all outbound, and Just Work.
>
> And they're cheaper than the soekris units.

It actually makes sense for someone in NYC*BUG to maintain a easy to 
install script for Soekris with CF card as the medium.  Complete with 
home connectivity. . . PPOE, etc.  When I have the time, I'd be willing 
to do this. . . make it easy for all to use Soekris just by following 
some easy steps, without worrying about pf rules, etc.  We must be 
responsible for something like 10% of Soekris sales at this point. <g>

We have it up on the site, and maybe do a variety of images. . . 
Verizon DSL, Optonline, standard DHCP for external IP, etc.  We could 
make it easy for those without the time or inclination to run Soekris 
at home without much thought or effort.

>
> Like I said before, if you're the type who buys tobacco and rolling 
> papers, build. Else, buy.
>

Woah. . . you do know Ike. . .

g




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 19 10:43:51 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:43:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:18:18 -0500, G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> 
> It actually makes sense for someone in NYC*BUG to maintain a easy to
> install script for Soekris with CF card as the medium.  Complete with
> home connectivity. . . PPOE, etc.  When I have the time, I'd be willing
> to do this. . . make it easy for all to use Soekris just by following
> some easy steps, without worrying about pf rules, etc.  We must be
> responsible for something like 10% of Soekris sales at this point. <g>

umm why?  for around $50 I get a up link port, a 4 port switch, a dead stupid
web interface and it works.   A sokris is what, ~ $200+ and I do not
get the switch.
And it does not work out of the box.

I agree that you can do more with the sokris box, dmz for example, but
the home user market does not need or want a dmz or know what it is.
Sokris is on my toy list and I can  use it as a firewall, but I would
be doing it in large part for the fun of setting it up.


> 
> We have it up on the site, and maybe do a variety of images. . .
> Verizon DSL, Optonline, standard DHCP for external IP, etc.  We could
> make it easy for those without the time or inclination to run Soekris
> at home without much thought or effort.

why spend the extra money and wait for the product to be delivered when I can
just save $150 (200-500 ) and be done with it?   Personaly I have had good luck 
with netgear not linksys, but all the arguments apply.

marc



From george  Wed Jan 19 11:02:28 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:02:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:18:18 -0500, G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> 
> wrote:
>>
>> It actually makes sense for someone in NYC*BUG to maintain a easy to
>> install script for Soekris with CF card as the medium.  Complete with
>> home connectivity. . . PPOE, etc.  When I have the time, I'd be 
>> willing
>> to do this. . . make it easy for all to use Soekris just by following
>> some easy steps, without worrying about pf rules, etc.  We must be
>> responsible for something like 10% of Soekris sales at this point. <g>
>
> umm why?  for around $50 I get a up link port, a 4 port switch, a dead 
> stupid
> web interface and it works.   A sokris is what, ~ $200+ and I do not
> get the switch.
> And it does not work out of the box.

Right  .. . .that's the assumption we're working off of.

>
> I agree that you can do more with the sokris box, dmz for example, but
> the home user market does not need or want a dmz or know what it is.
> Sokris is on my toy list and I can  use it as a firewall, but I would
> be doing it in large part for the fun of setting it up.

And a DMZ could be part of that image.

>
>
>>
>> We have it up on the site, and maybe do a variety of images. . .
>> Verizon DSL, Optonline, standard DHCP for external IP, etc.  We could
>> make it easy for those without the time or inclination to run Soekris
>> at home without much thought or effort.
>
> why spend the extra money and wait for the product to be delivered 
> when I can
> just save $150 (200-500 ) and be done with it?   Personaly I have had 
> good luck
> with netgear not linksys, but all the arguments apply.
>

Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool some 
of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a Soekris box 
without having to start from square one.

sysadmins<->devs
newusers<->old hacks

The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.

I'd envision this:

You download and copy to your CF card.

Plug it in.

Use it.

all images would include:

standard dhcp range from .150-.200

the particular isps dns servers, ppoe, dhcp, whatever.

dmz ips pre-assigned even if unused covering www, mail, dns.

standard pf rules for the three interfaces.

G




From ike  Wed Jan 19 11:09:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:09:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup All,

So I REALLY dig the idea of a NYC*BUG distributed SoHo router image,

On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:02 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:

> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
> some of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a 
> Soekris box without having to start from square one.
>
> sysadmins<->devs
> newusers<->old hacks
>
> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>
> I'd envision this:
>
> You download and copy to your CF card.
>
> Plug it in.
>
> Use it.
>
> all images would include:
>
> standard dhcp range from .150-.200
>
> the particular isps dns servers, ppoe, dhcp, whatever.
>
> dmz ips pre-assigned even if unused covering www, mail, dns.
>
> standard pf rules for the three interfaces.
>
> G

After investigating more yesterday, it's REALLY noteworthy to check out 
how the m0n0wall folks distribute install media- really 
straightforeword.  I'd love to see this go in that direction, but 
OpenBSD/PF based, and perhaps not *soo* focused on a html gui- (but 
that could be a cool side-project for later!)

Shall we rock this?

Rocket-
.ike




From mspitzer  Wed Jan 19 11:32:40 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:32:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501190832621fbabf@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:02:28 -0500, G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> 
>
> >
> > I agree that you can do more with the sokris box, dmz for example, but
> > the home user market does not need or want a dmz or know what it is.
> > Sokris is on my toy list and I can  use it as a firewall, but I would
> > be doing it in large part for the fun of setting it up.
> 
> And a DMZ could be part of that image.

as could an ipsec vpn server, ssh with port fowarding ....


> > why spend the extra money and wait for the product to be delivered
> > when I can
> > just save $150 (200-500 ) and be done with it?   Personaly I have had
> > good luck
> > with netgear not linksys, but all the arguments apply.
> >
> 
> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool some
> of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a Soekris box
> without having to start from square one.

But the thing is square 1 is where the fun is, that is the toy value
to me that makes
it worth 4x the proce of the linksys box.  I get to learn/refine a set
of skills.

> 
> sysadmins<->devs
> newusers<->old hacks
> 
> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run
> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.

I am missing some thing here.

> 
> I'd envision this:
> 
> You download and copy to your CF card.
> 
> Plug it in.
> 
> Use it.
> 
> all images would include:
> standard dhcp range from .150-.200
> the particular isps dns servers, ppoe, dhcp, whatever.
> dmz ips pre-assigned even if unused covering www, mail, dns.
> standard pf rules for the three interfaces.
and don't forget the web interface, not kidding here. 

It would be fun to do as a project, but it would be about as much fun
to use as a linksys if done well.

marc



From bruno  Wed Jan 19 11:40:59 2005
From: bruno (bruno)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:40:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <A9CBE68A-6971-11D9-ABFB-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050119164059.GN2804@bizintegrators.com>

> I'm looking to replace my home-office soho type router.  For a long 
> time I've used an ADSL 'router' provided by my ISP, which basically 
> does NAT and DHCP, and does it quite simply and reliably.  With that, 
> this thing is aging, and perhaps dying after a few years of solid 
> service- and I'm looking at options...
> 
> Biggest requirement: the router must simply run, with as little 
> ike-interaction as possible, as not to disrupt my other regular work.
> 
> Option Ideas:
> 
> 1) Soekris/OpenBSD/pf-NAT:
> I'd love to rock out with a soekris box, and OpenBSD is 
> luscious/fun/obvious for a router/firewall, BUT, since I work from 
> home, I can't have any downtime managing the thing by myself- and don't 
> really sanely seeing myself making time to mess around- (I have other 
> code and sw to work with for work and pleasure...)  Also, to ensure it 
> stays up, (as I'm not sure I trust myself yet to run the little 
> buggers, they're quite different than the servers I'm used to), I'd be 
> inclined to buy two of them- so the price goes up for this simple task 
> for me...  I'd really love to do some Soekris for the sake of it, but I 
> really just don't have time to go there right now...

In case you opt for this one, they are stable and do stay up, I've been
running OpenBSD 3.1 since it came out. It was a little time consuming
at that time, I had to hack a laptop and made my own .iso to install
from the laptop on the CF, which is only 64MB because they were a
little expensive then. But these days, you should be able to PXEboot
and install the regular way (10 min?). Unless you have a complex setup,
pf should be simple, you might get away with just a few lines. I have
not touched it since (about 3 years or more?), except to add/remove an
IP to be allowed to go out, open/close a port, and so on. It just
works. Another nice thing is a serial console, so I don't have to run
sshd on it. They are not that much different from any server, I don't
think.

bruno
--
http://www.loftmail.com



From john  Wed Jan 19 12:36:22 2005
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:36:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance was:  Re: talk Digest, Vol 14,
	Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200501191236.26976.john@unixen.org>

On Tuesday 18 January 2005 05:59 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
> I've posted
> a pretty detailed post to freebsd-stable@ and hope to get some
> feedback.  I'll keep you all posted here as well if you all are
> interested.

Very. The results are perplexing. Hmmm. Too bad no one knowledgeable has 
responded.

  http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2005-January/011206.html

	John




From pete  Wed Jan 19 12:57:03 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:57:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introduction to XSAN at the Apple SoHo Store
In-Reply-To: <12F90EC9-6A19-11D9-B846-000393A55FC0@apple.com>
References: <20050119004135.NTSQ28025.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net>
	<7F70A6D2-69B8-11D9-AC54-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<20050119012831.GD20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<12F90EC9-6A19-11D9-B846-000393A55FC0@apple.com>
Message-ID: <20050119175703.GA94519@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 07:53:10AM -0500, Ken Court wrote:
> pete 
> 
> 
> > what's interesting is when we were trying to get an 
> > XRAID from apple they didn't give us the time of day 
> > 
>  
> we now carry these in stock at the SoHo retail store along with fabric, 
> switches, and even fibred LTO tape drives 
> 
> 
> > while I'm sure it's possible (anything is) i would not bet the 
> > company data 
> > on it just yet, but that goes for any new new tech. 
> > 
>  
> can I have have an Lead Apple Engineer w/ a lot of full Xsan deploys 
> already done call you. 
> 

Sorry I didn't intend for this to end up being a flame.  When I was working 
for Click3X in NYC I was building a new HD suite based on Apple tech 
(a G5 HD suite using Final Cut and Shake).  We were attempting
to see if it was feasable replace one of our three Flame suites with this
setup.  At the time I was hoping to build a relationship between Apple
and Click, but it did not seem that anyone I spoke with at Apple took me seriously.
In the end we fell back on Tekserve, which worked more or less.  I'm now working for
Sony Imageworks in LA so it's all a moot point now.  I have let the current
engineers at Click3X know abou this demo though and they will hopefully be 
attending.

-pete

> k 
>  
> 
> *************** 
> Ken Court 
> Business Technical Coordinator 
> Apple Computer, SoHo 
> Mon - Fri   10 - 7 
> Phone   212.226.3126 x 642 
> FAX       212.965.9118 
> http://www.apple.com/xsan/videoworkflow.html 
> http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/open_directory.html 
> - 
>  
> On Jan 18, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Pete Wright wrote: 
> 
> 
> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 08:21:51PM -0500, G. Rosamond  
> > 
> > > 
> > > >  
> > > > http://www.apple.com/retail/soho/week/20050102.html 
> > > > 
> > > > Best Regards, 
> > > > Steve 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > >  
> > > Fancy. . . 
> > > 
> > > Pete, you flying back here for this?  Weren't you trying to get 
> > > to one  
> > > of these? 
> > > 
> > > g 
> > > 
> >  
> > yea click3x got one of these for better or worse (The XRAID).  they 
> > do look nice... 
> > altho the management utilites kinda are lacking and obviously we 
> > were 
> > forced to use HFS+...ouch.  from a hardware perspective the cases 
> > are pretty 
> > nice, altho I still am not convinced in with SATA tech. yet.  i 
> > followed the  
> > developments of the XSan FS pretty closely, and it does look 
> > interesting.   
> > altho in hindsight i'd probably not go with one of these guy's 
> > again,  
> > even with the XSan FS.  what's interesting is when we were trying 
> > to get an 
> > XRAID from apple they didn't give us the time of day...and now here 
> > they are  
> > trying to push this as a video solution.  as far as the enterprise 
> > buzz word... 
> > while I'm sure it's possible (anything is) i would not bet the 
> > company data 
> > on it just yet, but that goes for any new new tech. 
> > 
> > 
> > -p 
> > 
> > --  
> > ~~oO00Oo~~ 
> > Peter Wright 
> > pete at nomadlogic.org 
> > www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 
> > 917.415.9866 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Wed Jan 19 13:05:41 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:05:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance was:  Re: talk Digest, Vol 14,
	Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <200501191236.26976.john@unixen.org>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<200501191236.26976.john@unixen.org>
Message-ID: <20050119180541.GB94519@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 12:36:22PM -0500, John Bacall wrote:
> On Tuesday 18 January 2005 05:59 pm, Pete Wright wrote:
> > I've posted
> > a pretty detailed post to freebsd-stable@ and hope to get some
> > feedback.  I'll keep you all posted here as well if you all are
> > interested.
> 
> Very. The results are perplexing. Hmmm. Too bad no one knowledgeable has 
> responded.
> 
>   http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2005-January/011206.html
> 
> 	John


odd eh, that'll teach me to put all my data into one email...i should have
left out vital info that always seems to get people to respond :)

I guess if I do not get any responses it may be time to submit a PR...

-pete


--
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From george  Wed Jan 19 12:04:39 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:04:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:09 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Wordup All,
>
> So I REALLY dig the idea of a NYC*BUG distributed SoHo router image,
>
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:02 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
>> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
>> some of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a 
>> Soekris box without having to start from square one.
>>
>> sysadmins<->devs
>> newusers<->old hacks
>>
>> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
>> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>>
>> I'd envision this:
>>
>> You download and copy to your CF card.
>>
>> Plug it in.
>>
>> Use it.
>>
>> all images would include:
>>
>> standard dhcp range from .150-.200
>>
>> the particular isps dns servers, ppoe, dhcp, whatever.
>>
>> dmz ips pre-assigned even if unused covering www, mail, dns.
>>
>> standard pf rules for the three interfaces.
>>
>> G
>
> After investigating more yesterday, it's REALLY noteworthy to check 
> out how the m0n0wall folks distribute install media- really 
> straightforeword.  I'd love to see this go in that direction, but 
> OpenBSD/PF based, and perhaps not *soo* focused on a html gui- (but 
> that could be a cool side-project for later!)

the html gui would be a nice addition, although not necessarily for one 
aimed at nycbug members.

>
> Shall we rock this?
>

I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
etc., but really don't have the time.

volunteers?

I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., etc., 
have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into the 
matter, if not volunteering.

G




From george  Wed Jan 19 12:01:54 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:01:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501190832621fbabf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c30501190832621fbabf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D24FBDD2-6A3B-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:02:28 -0500, G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I agree that you can do more with the sokris box, dmz for example, 
>>> but
>>> the home user market does not need or want a dmz or know what it is.
>>> Sokris is on my toy list and I can  use it as a firewall, but I would
>>> be doing it in large part for the fun of setting it up.
>>
>> And a DMZ could be part of that image.
>
> as could an ipsec vpn server, ssh with port fowarding ....

Yup . . .

>
>
>>> why spend the extra money and wait for the product to be delivered
>>> when I can
>>> just save $150 (200-500 ) and be done with it?   Personaly I have had
>>> good luck
>>> with netgear not linksys, but all the arguments apply.
>>>
>>
>> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
>> some
>> of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a Soekris box
>> without having to start from square one.
>
> But the thing is square 1 is where the fun is, that is the toy value
> to me that makes
> it worth 4x the proce of the linksys box.  I get to learn/refine a set
> of skills.

Sure, and then there are those who *want* to use it for whatever 
reasons, maybe bragging value, some bad childhood experience or 
functionality.  This would give them the basis to at least get it 
functional, and then they could worry about playtime later on.


>
>>
>> sysadmins<->devs
>> newusers<->old hacks
>>
>> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run
>> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>
> I am missing some thing here.

the <-> thing is about spreading the skills and experience, if not for 
training and education, then for usage.

so if nycbug member X is a developer at home, and doesn't have the time 
or interest to config a Soekris box, they could utilize the efforts of 
member Y, a full-time sysadmin with heavy pf experience.


>
>>
>> I'd envision this:
>>
>> You download and copy to your CF card.
>>
>> Plug it in.
>>
>> Use it.
>>
>> all images would include:
>> standard dhcp range from .150-.200
>> the particular isps dns servers, ppoe, dhcp, whatever.
>> dmz ips pre-assigned even if unused covering www, mail, dns.
>> standard pf rules for the three interfaces.
> and don't forget the web interface, not kidding here.
>
> It would be fun to do as a project, but it would be about as much fun
> to use as a linksys if done well.
>

Okay, okay, Marc S. is *not* required to use it.  We won't be probing 
your firewall to confirm that you use it.

g




From bob  Wed Jan 19 14:05:57 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:05:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:04, G. Rosamond wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:09 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Wordup All,
>>
>> So I REALLY dig the idea of a NYC*BUG distributed SoHo router image,
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:02 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>>
>>> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
>>> some of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a 
>>> Soekris box without having to start from square one.
>>>
>>> sysadmins<->devs
>>> newusers<->old hacks
>>>
>>> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
>>> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>>>
>>> I'd envision this:
>>>
>>> You download and copy to your CF card.
>>>
>>> Plug it in.
>>>
>>> Use it.
>>>
>>> all images would include:
>>>
>>> standard dhcp range from .150-.200
>>>
>>> the particular isps dns servers, ppoe, dhcp, whatever.
>>>
>>> dmz ips pre-assigned even if unused covering www, mail, dns.
>>>
>>> standard pf rules for the three interfaces.
>>>
>>> G
>>
>> After investigating more yesterday, it's REALLY noteworthy to check 
>> out how the m0n0wall folks distribute install media- really 
>> straightforeword.  I'd love to see this go in that direction, but 
>> OpenBSD/PF based, and perhaps not *soo* focused on a html gui- (but 
>> that could be a cool side-project for later!)
>
> the html gui would be a nice addition, although not necessarily for 
> one aimed at nycbug members.
>
>>
>> Shall we rock this?
>>
>
> I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
> etc., but really don't have the time.
>
> volunteers?
>
> I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., 
> etc., have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into 
> the matter, if not volunteering.

If this gets off the ground I'll probably buy one and help..  I've been 
meaning to replace my years-old Linux-based crap for a looong time, but 
like Ike, I can't afford the downtime.  If I had a second device, it 
wouldn't be a big deal... but I don't want to buy one and spend all the 
time setting it up.  If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF 
card that was almost all the way there, I would do it in a second.

-bob




From spork  Wed Jan 19 14:13:45 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:13:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Check out new minimac :)
In-Reply-To: <671131BD-6A1E-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050113181756.13182.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
	<89EE881C-65B3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<22CB4FA2-65B4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<67BD1BE6-65C4-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>
	<44C3F130-65D3-11D9-A779-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<671131BD-6A1E-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501191406380.20134@oof.local>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Thanks slasdhdot for posting links to 'cracking open a Mac mini safely' 
> (remember, it DOES void AppleCare):

...only if you break the box.  You can find a confirmation from Apple on 
this issue in this article:

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/01/miniapplesandoranges/index.php

"Updated 1/18 at 4:00 PM PT, adding specific verification from Apple that 
opening the Mac mini doesn't void your warranty unless you break it while 
opening it."

It is MacWorld, so if they are claiming Apple said the above it should be 
more reliable than something like Slashdot.

C

> http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/01/19/036200.shtml? 
> tid=174&tid=137&tid=99&tid=3
>
> --
> The links from the article, for the record:
>
> http://www.smashsworld.com/2005/01/taking-apart-mac-mini-how-to.php
> 700kb Quicktime How-To movie:
> http://www.smashsworld.com/2005/01/taking-apart-mac-mini-how-to.php
> http://www.mini-itx.com/news/13909018/
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From ike  Wed Jan 19 14:18:05 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:18:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <D8B3BB8E-6A4E-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:04 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>> After investigating more yesterday, it's REALLY noteworthy to check 
>> out how the m0n0wall folks distribute install media- really 
>> straightforeword.  I'd love to see this go in that direction, but 
>> OpenBSD/PF based, and perhaps not *soo* focused on a html gui- (but 
>> that could be a cool side-project for later!)
>
> the html gui would be a nice addition, although not necessarily for 
> one aimed at nycbug members.

Actually, I'll hang with Marc S. on this one, and put my hands where my 
mouth is and step up to build that part when the time comes.  (web-apps 
and systems integration is my bag').

First, however, I feel the thing has to be running and stable before 
its' sane to lay in a web interface on top.

Also, if the web interface is designed sanely, and in an *nix-ish way, 
it can actually help new users learn how to run things like PF etc...  
Teach folks to fish, don't give them fish...  Everyone is happier with 
that in the end IMO...

>
>>
>> Shall we rock this?
>>
>
> I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
> etc., but really don't have the time.
>
> volunteers?

Not me until it's Web-GUI time...  I'll gladly beta-test the distro and 
could provide nauseatingly detailed feedback, have some old pc hardware 
and nics sitting here... (assuming this distro can run on more than 
just soekris boxen?  i.e. installer that just dumps to disk instead of 
cf-card?)

> I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., 
> etc., have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into 
> the matter, if not volunteering.

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Wed Jan 19 14:19:35 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:19:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <0DED9660-6A4F-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF card that was almost 
> all the way there, I would do it in a second.

After reviewing more of the options from this thread, I completely echo 
that sentiment.

Rocket-
.ike




From okan  Wed Jan 19 14:43:42 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:43:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050119194342.GA25272@yinaska.pair.com>

On Wed 2005.01.19 at 12:04 -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:
> I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
> etc., but really don't have the time.
> 
> volunteers?

yes

> I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., etc., 
> have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into the 
> matter, if not volunteering.

i'm somewhat falling off the list nowadays, but once i complete my     
move and get internet access, i have many projects to complete and
start up - this is one that i'd like to contribute to ...give me a
week or two to get ramped up. 

cheers,
okan

> G
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
Okan Demirmen <okan at demirmen.com>
PGP-Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB3670934
PGP-Fingerprint: 226D B4AE 78A9 7F4E CD2B 1B44 C281 AF18 B367 0934



From rick  Wed Jan 19 16:07:47 2005
From: rick (Rick Aliwalas)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:07:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.61.0501191556300.12011@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF card that was almost all 
> the way there, I would do it in a second.

If you spend the extra 10 bucks and get a "large" CF card (say 128mb or
256mb), you can just do a normal OpenBSD install via pxeboot.  Other
than using the serial console, it's really no different than installing
on a full-blown pc.

I like the fact that you can slap in a wireless card and easily roll your
own WAP - while having all of what OpenBSD (and ports) offers.  Fun stuff
and you can sleep at night.

-rick




From george  Wed Jan 19 14:56:16 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:56:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <0DED9660-6A4F-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<0DED9660-6A4F-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <2DD1DFB4-6A54-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF card that was 
>> almost all the way there, I would do it in a second.
>
> After reviewing more of the options from this thread, I completely 
> echo that sentiment.
>

Right. . .  that was my point. . . someone takes it on, others test, 
and it becomes NYC*BUG 1.0-Release/Stable/WorkingNice at some point. . 
.

Then those who don't want don't have to play to get it to work.

g




From tillman  Wed Jan 19 16:24:17 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:24:17 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance was:  Re: talk Digest, Vol 14,
	Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>

On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 05:59:15PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
> Hey bob all,
> 	so instead of relying on blind faith I ran some tests to see the truth
> in the make -jN statements in the FreeBSD handbook.  While I agree with what 
> bob stated regarding the "-j" flag I thought that maybe there was something in
> the makeworld process that got around these issues.  Well I hacked up a small
> shell script to test this out and the findings were not what I expected (and 
> frankly not what I remember experiencing in the past).  The make times flattened
> out after make -j2 buildworld on an SMP system running 5.3.  I've posted a pretty detailed
> post to freebsd-stable@ and hope to get some feedback.  I'll keep you all posted
> here as well if you all are interested.

About a year ago I did some tests as well.

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2004-January/032105.html

I posted this to the FreeBSD questions mailing list though it didn't
generate much discussion. After testing for myself and seeing these
results, I quit using -j# with make on single CPU boxes.

Combined with your results, it looks like one job per CPU is the best
that the build infrastructure can do.

-T


-- 
"Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't
 bet, you can't win."
    -- Robert Heinlein



From pete  Wed Jan 19 17:34:58 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:34:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <20050119223458.GA95295@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Wed, Jan 19, 2005 at 03:24:17PM -0600, Tillman Hodgson wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 05:59:15PM -0500, Pete Wright wrote:
> > Hey bob all,
> > 	so instead of relying on blind faith I ran some tests to see the truth
> > in the make -jN statements in the FreeBSD handbook.  While I agree with what 
> > bob stated regarding the "-j" flag I thought that maybe there was something in
> > the makeworld process that got around these issues.  Well I hacked up a small
> > shell script to test this out and the findings were not what I expected (and 
> > frankly not what I remember experiencing in the past).  The make times flattened
> > out after make -j2 buildworld on an SMP system running 5.3.  I've posted a pretty detailed
> > post to freebsd-stable@ and hope to get some feedback.  I'll keep you all posted
> > here as well if you all are interested.
> 
> About a year ago I did some tests as well.
> 
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2004-January/032105.html
> 
> I posted this to the FreeBSD questions mailing list though it didn't
> generate much discussion. After testing for myself and seeing these
> results, I quit using -j# with make on single CPU boxes.
> 
> Combined with your results, it looks like one job per CPU is the best
> that the build infrastructure can do.


hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team then...well 
atleast it was an interesting exercise :)

-pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From mspitzer  Wed Jan 19 18:04:26 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:04:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <2DD1DFB4-6A54-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<263B6AF6-6A4D-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<0DED9660-6A4F-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<2DD1DFB4-6A54-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050119150468446863@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:56:16 -0500, G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> > On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> >
> >> If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF card that was
> >> almost all the way there, I would do it in a second.
> >
> > After reviewing more of the options from this thread, I completely
> > echo that sentiment.
> >
> 
> Right. . .  that was my point. . . someone takes it on, others test,
> and it becomes NYC*BUG 1.0-Release/Stable/WorkingNice at some point. .

I would be willing to set up the firewall QA, like I said it is a fun
project.  And the new hping3 alpha looks like a way fun toy.  Are we
getting an order together soon?  I want a 4801 with 3 network jacks.

you guys are evil sucking me into this project.

marc

ps yes you are don't deny it


> .
> 
> Then those who don't want don't have to play to get it to work.
> 
> g
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From lists  Wed Jan 19 21:48:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:48:01 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_soho_router_options_(soekris?)?=
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1CrSOY1I5Q-0004YM@mrelay.perfora.net>


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:19:35 -0500
Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> 
> > If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF card that 
> > was almost all the way there, I would do it in a second.
> 
> After reviewing more of the options from this thread, 
> I completely echo that sentiment.
> Rocket-
> .ike

So you would rather grab a fork than a fishing pole.
Michael



From mspitzer  Wed Jan 19 21:57:31 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:57:31 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_soho_router_options_(soekris?)?=
In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1CrSOY1I5Q-0004YM@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CrSOY1I5Q-0004YM@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050119185750b57d02@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:48:01 +0100, lists at genoverly.net
<lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:19:35 -0500
> Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Jan 19, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> >
> > > If I had an image that I could just throw on a CF card that
> > > was almost all the way there, I would do it in a second.
> >
> > After reviewing more of the options from this thread,
> > I completely echo that sentiment.
> > Rocket-
> > .ike
> 
> So you would rather grab a fork than a fishing pole.
> Michael

what about dynamite? 

marc

> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From bschonhorst  Thu Jan 20 10:54:38 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:54:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>


On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:04 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>>
>>> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
>>> some of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a 
>>> Soekris box without having to start from square one.
>>>
>>> sysadmins<->devs
>>> newusers<->old hacks
>>>
>>> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
>>> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>>>
>>> I'd envision this:
>>>
>>> You download and copy to your CF card.
>>>
>>> Plug it in.
>>>
>>> Use it.
>>
>> Shall we rock this?
>>
>
> I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
> etc., but really don't have the time.
>
> volunteers?
>
> I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., 
> etc., have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into 
> the matter, if not volunteering.
>
> G
>

First off, I think this is a great idea and would love to help test or 
whatever I can do.  My question is how would this be different from:

flashdist
http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/

opensoekris
http://opensoekris.sourceforge.net/

CompactBSD
http://sourceforge.net/projects/compactbsd


Also, has anyone used nsh?
http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/nsh/


-Brad




From george  Thu Jan 20 10:57:57 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:57:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:54 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

>
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:04 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
>>>> some of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a 
>>>> Soekris box without having to start from square one.
>>>>
>>>> sysadmins<->devs
>>>> newusers<->old hacks
>>>>
>>>> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
>>>> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>>>>
>>>> I'd envision this:
>>>>
>>>> You download and copy to your CF card.
>>>>
>>>> Plug it in.
>>>>
>>>> Use it.
>>>
>>> Shall we rock this?
>>>
>>
>> I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
>> etc., but really don't have the time.
>>
>> volunteers?
>>
>> I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., 
>> etc., have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into 
>> the matter, if not volunteering.
>>
>> G
>>
>
> First off, I think this is a great idea and would love to help test or 
> whatever I can do.  My question is how would this be different from:
>
> flashdist
> http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/

I think it would be more fully config'd version, with full pf rules, 
with an accompanying network device listing, ie, ips<-> devices listed 
to match included PF rules.


>
> opensoekris
> http://opensoekris.sourceforge.net/
>
> CompactBSD
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/compactbsd
>
>
> Also, has anyone used nsh?
> http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/nsh/
>

Doesn't work on OBSD 3.6 AFAIK.  Emailed that to Chris Capuccio a while 
back.

But ..  . uh .  . . . who wants a Cisco IOS interface on a BSD box 
anyway?

g




From paul  Thu Jan 20 11:19:36 2005
From: paul (Paul Dlug)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:19:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NCD X-Terminals Up for Grabs
Message-ID: <13F714CC-6AFF-11D9-B9AD-000A95D1D7EE@aps.org>

If anyone is interested we have quite a few NCD Explora 450 X-Terminals 
(2mb video, 16mb RAM, standard VGA port) available, we had them booting 
off Solaris servers but I'm sure they'd work with anything.

We're doing some office cleaning so if anyone wants them please let me 
know by today, I'm willing to hold on to them for a while if needed. We 
have about 15-20 up for grabs. These are for pick up only, we are in 
Ridge, NY (exit 68 on the LIE).

--Paul




From lists  Thu Jan 20 11:31:44 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:31:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NCD X-Terminals Up for Grabs
In-Reply-To: <13F714CC-6AFF-11D9-B9AD-000A95D1D7EE@aps.org>
References: <13F714CC-6AFF-11D9-B9AD-000A95D1D7EE@aps.org>
Message-ID: <20050120113144.31b69f07@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:19:36 -0500
Paul Dlug <paul at aps.org> wrote:

> NCD Explora 450 X-Terminals

Google is probably trying to figure out why so many searches just ran...

http://criggie.dyndns.org/ncd/explora/
http://www.ncd.com/products/hardware/ncs/compare_Explora.html



-- 
---



From ike  Thu Jan 20 11:59:45 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:59:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <20050119223458.GA95295@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>
	<20050119223458.GA95295@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <AF8E57BE-6B04-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team 
> then...well
> atleast it was an interesting exercise :)
>
> -pete

Yeah- I wanted to pipe in quicklike with this one with some super-crude 
test results,

Basically I've been compiling a lot of FreeBSD jails lately, so what 
the hey, I've thrown in some -j flags informally to see what happens, 
here's my results:

--
Single CPU (crufty old office 800mhz PIII):

- No flags, make world takes 49 min average.
- j2, j4, j6, j10, all take 50 min average.

--
Dual CPU (new-ish Dual Xeon 2.6mhz, under other server load):

- No flags, make world takes 22 min average.

- j2, j4, j6, j10, all take about 12 min average. (NICE.)



--
Lots of other stuff could affect my results here, but in a nutshell, it 
seems that the j flag has no effect unless there's more than 1 
processor.

That stated, I'd think that in my scripted jail-build stuff, it would 
be worth my time to throw a -j4 flag in there, as it doesn't seem to 
hurt much, and what the hey- the systems may port to 4 cpu machines in 
the not-too-distant future...

Reporting from the Why-the-heck-not Dept.,
.ike




From dlavigne6  Thu Jan 20 12:14:08 2005
From: dlavigne6 (dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:14:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
Message-ID: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>


> 
> From: Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org>
> Date: 2005/01/20 Thu AM 11:59:45 EST
> To: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> CC: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
> 
> Hey All,
> 
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> > hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team 
> > then...well
> > atleast it was an interesting exercise :)
> >
> > -pete
> 
> Yeah- I wanted to pipe in quicklike with this one with some super-crude 
> test results,
> 
> Basically I've been compiling a lot of FreeBSD jails lately, so what 
> the hey, I've thrown in some -j flags informally to see what happens, 
> here's my results:
> 
> --
> Single CPU (crufty old office 800mhz PIII):
> 
> - No flags, make world takes 49 min average.
> - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take 50 min average.
> 
> --
> Dual CPU (new-ish Dual Xeon 2.6mhz, under other server load):
> 
> - No flags, make world takes 22 min average.
> 
> - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take about 12 min average. (NICE.)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Lots of other stuff could affect my results here, but in a nutshell, it 
> seems that the j flag has no effect unless there's more than 1 
> processor.

Is this on a 4.x or a 5.x system? I'm wondering if there's a difference between the two...

Dru




From tillman  Thu Jan 20 12:19:11 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:19:11 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
References: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
Message-ID: <20050120171911.GE85710@seekingfire.com>

On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 12:14:08PM -0500, dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca wrote:
> Is this on a 4.x or a 5.x system? I'm wondering if there's a difference between the two...

In my case it was a 4.x system (following -stable at the time). I can
try it on a -current system if you don't mind waiting a while for
results.

-T


-- 
Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit.  This is the fine 
point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job 
security.
	- Bene Gesserit Coda



From ike  Thu Jan 20 12:20:34 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:20:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
References: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
Message-ID: <97DF15DC-6B07-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Dru, All,

On Jan 20, 2005, at 12:14 PM, <dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca> wrote:

>
>>
>> From: Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org>
>> Date: 2005/01/20 Thu AM 11:59:45 EST
>> To: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
>> CC: talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
>>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>> hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team
>>> then...well
>>> atleast it was an interesting exercise :)
>>>
>>> -pete
>>
>> Yeah- I wanted to pipe in quicklike with this one with some 
>> super-crude
>> test results,
>>
>> Basically I've been compiling a lot of FreeBSD jails lately, so what
>> the hey, I've thrown in some -j flags informally to see what happens,
>> here's my results:
>>
>> --
>> Single CPU (crufty old office 800mhz PIII):
>>
>> - No flags, make world takes 49 min average.
>> - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take 50 min average.
>>
>> --
>> Dual CPU (new-ish Dual Xeon 2.6mhz, under other server load):
>>
>> - No flags, make world takes 22 min average.
>>
>> - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take about 12 min average. (NICE.)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lots of other stuff could affect my results here, but in a nutshell, 
>> it
>> seems that the j flag has no effect unless there's more than 1
>> processor.
>
> Is this on a 4.x or a 5.x system? I'm wondering if there's a 
> difference between the two...
>
> Dru

4.10 systems all around.

Rocket-
.ike





From paul  Thu Jan 20 12:51:47 2005
From: paul (Paul Dlug)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:51:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NCD X-Terminals Up for Grabs
In-Reply-To: <OFBF639F1A.BA0BB20D-ON85256F8F.005B737A-85256F8F.005BA18B@us.ibm.com>
References: <OFBF639F1A.BA0BB20D-ON85256F8F.005B737A-85256F8F.005BA18B@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <F4B95002-6B0B-11D9-94FD-000393BB3E22@aps.org>


On Jan 20, 2005, at 11:40 AM, Daniel Krook wrote:

> So are Mapquest and Yahoo :)
>
> http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result? 
> ed=M7tNO.p_0TqT&csz=Ridge%2C+NY&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=

If it helps, we're on William Floyd Parkway across the street from  
Brookhaven National Lab. I might be able to ship them if someone wanted  
to take a larger batch and redistribute. I don't want to have to make  
alot of small shipments but if someone closer to civilization  
(geographically) wants to take a shipment of 10 or so I could probably  
arrange it.


--Paul




From bschonhorst  Thu Jan 20 12:56:27 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:56:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>

>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sure.  But the point of NYC*BUG, to me at least, should be to pool 
>>>>> some of our skills and resources so we can do things like run a 
>>>>> Soekris box without having to start from square one.
>>>>>
>>>>> sysadmins<->devs
>>>>> newusers<->old hacks
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea would be to make it easier for those who *do* want to run 
>>>>> Soekris as a firewall at home without too much effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd envision this:
>>>>>
>>>>> You download and copy to your CF card.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plug it in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Use it.
>>>>
>>>> Shall we rock this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would love to, and have the basic setup ready, including pfstat, 
>>> etc., but really don't have the time.
>>>
>>> volunteers?
>>>
>>> I know a number of nycbug people, like Kurt M., Okan D., Pete W., 
>>> etc., have had some Soekris fun.  I'm sure they have some input into 
>>> the matter, if not volunteering.
>>>
>>> G
>>>
>>
>> First off, I think this is a great idea and would love to help test 
>> or whatever I can do.  My question is how would this be different 
>> from:
>>
>> flashdist
>> http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/
>
> I think it would be more fully config'd version, with full pf rules, 
> with an accompanying network device listing, ie, ips<-> devices listed 
> to match included PF rules.
>

this sounds cool, makes your soekris box almost as easy to plug and 
play as the other options discussed earlier in the thread.

-brad




From pete  Thu Jan 20 13:50:01 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:50:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
References: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
Message-ID: <20050120185001.GA91341@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 12:14:08PM -0500, dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca wrote:
> 
> > 
> > From: Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org>
> > Date: 2005/01/20 Thu AM 11:59:45 EST
> > To: Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org>
> > CC: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
> > 
> > Hey All,
> > 
> > On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
> > 
> > > hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team 
> > > then...well
> > > atleast it was an interesting exercise :)
> > >
> > > -pete
> > 
> > Yeah- I wanted to pipe in quicklike with this one with some super-crude 
> > test results,
> > 
> > Basically I've been compiling a lot of FreeBSD jails lately, so what 
> > the hey, I've thrown in some -j flags informally to see what happens, 
> > here's my results:
> > 
> > --
> > Single CPU (crufty old office 800mhz PIII):
> > 
> > - No flags, make world takes 49 min average.
> > - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take 50 min average.
> > 
> > --
> > Dual CPU (new-ish Dual Xeon 2.6mhz, under other server load):
> > 
> > - No flags, make world takes 22 min average.
> > 
> > - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take about 12 min average. (NICE.)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Lots of other stuff could affect my results here, but in a nutshell, it 
> > seems that the j flag has no effect unless there's more than 1 
> > processor.
> 
> Is this on a 4.x or a 5.x system? I'm wondering if there's a difference between the two...
> 

My initial test were on a 5.3 box (dual P-III 1.2ghz, 1.5gigRAM, Stripped 10K SCSI disks)

-pete

> Dru
> 

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From joshmccormack  Thu Jan 20 14:11:56 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:11:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] NCD X-Terminals Up for Grabs
In-Reply-To: <13F714CC-6AFF-11D9-B9AD-000A95D1D7EE@aps.org>
References: <13F714CC-6AFF-11D9-B9AD-000A95D1D7EE@aps.org>
Message-ID: <41F0027C.6030804@travelersdiary.com>

If anyone has some cool ideas of what to do with these I could drive out 
and pick up a bunch with my mini van and bring them somewhere. I'd like 
to learn how to use them if anyone else would.

Josh

Paul Dlug wrote:

> If anyone is interested we have quite a few NCD Explora 450 X-Terminals 
> (2mb video, 16mb RAM, standard VGA port) available, we had them booting 
> off Solaris servers but I'm sure they'd work with anything.
> 
> We're doing some office cleaning so if anyone wants them please let me 
> know by today, I'm willing to hold on to them for a while if needed. We 
> have about 15-20 up for grabs. These are for pick up only, we are in 
> Ridge, NY (exit 68 on the LIE).
> 
> --Paul
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 




From bob  Thu Jan 20 14:45:11 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:45:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <AF8E57BE-6B04-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>
	<20050119223458.GA95295@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<AF8E57BE-6B04-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <CBF69B60-6B1B-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 20, 2005, at 11:59, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team 
>> then...well
>> atleast it was an interesting exercise :)
>>
>> -pete
>
> Yeah- I wanted to pipe in quicklike with this one with some 
> super-crude test results,
>
> Basically I've been compiling a lot of FreeBSD jails lately, so what 
> the hey, I've thrown in some -j flags informally to see what happens, 
> here's my results:
>
> --
> Single CPU (crufty old office 800mhz PIII):
>
> - No flags, make world takes 49 min average.
> - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take 50 min average.
>
> --
> Dual CPU (new-ish Dual Xeon 2.6mhz, under other server load):
>
> - No flags, make world takes 22 min average.
>
> - j2, j4, j6, j10, all take about 12 min average. (NICE.)
>
>
>
> --
> Lots of other stuff could affect my results here, but in a nutshell, 
> it seems that the j flag has no effect unless there's more than 1 
> processor.
>
> That stated, I'd think that in my scripted jail-build stuff, it would 
> be worth my time to throw a -j4 flag in there, as it doesn't seem to 
> hurt much, and what the hey- the systems may port to 4 cpu machines in 
> the not-too-distant future...

You should have some way to detect the number of CPUs in the build 
system.  I don't know how to do this with FreeBSD, but on Mac OS X (any 
Darwin) you would do the following:

make -j`sysctl -n hw.ncpu`

I wouldn't recommend just guessing -j4.  Most people don't have 4 way 
systems, there is no gain (as you two have proven empirically) if you 
have less than 4 cpus, and in some cases people are using distcc.  I 
don't know how common this is for FreeBSD, but it can happen often on 
Mac OS X because it's so damn easy to setup (a checkbox in Xcode 
preferences per machine).  I would recommend something equivalent to 
the above by default, but make a special note for distcc users.  If I 
have 16 cpus on my network, all running distcc, then I would want "make 
CC=distcc -j16".  I don't think there's a quick and dirty way to get 
the number of CPUs available for distcc.

-bob




From george  Thu Jan 20 15:41:05 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:41:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cooling a cluster...
Message-ID: <20050120204105.GB30894@sta.local>

A new office is in the final stages and there is an architect for
layout and wall construction etc; but someone to do the AC plan is
needed. It would seem to me, the cluster exhaust could be utilized for
office heat in the winter, but how exactly is that done? There will be
a maximum of about 30 computers in a small space, in the center of the
building. Presently, the plan is to install an 8 ton unit for the entire
office vs 5 ton AC unit for a no computer office... Can anyone provide
referrals for the AC designing work? The office is near Hartford CT.

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From pete  Thu Jan 20 17:53:39 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:53:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jdk for bsd
Message-ID: <20050120225339.GA92391@finn.nomadlogic.org>

gears seem to be rolling for jdk support on free and net:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-java/2005-January/003376.html
http://www.eyesbeyond.com/freebsddom/java/jdk15.html

-p
-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Thu Jan 20 18:28:20 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:28:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <CBF69B60-6B1B-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>
	<20050119223458.GA95295@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<AF8E57BE-6B04-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<CBF69B60-6B1B-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20050120232820.GA92506@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 02:45:11PM -0500, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> 
> On Jan 20, 2005, at 11:59, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> >Hey All,
> >
> >On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
> >
> >>hmm...then it looks like I should submit a PR to the doc team 
> >>then...well
> >>atleast it was an interesting exercise :)
> >>
> >>-pete
> >
> >Yeah- I wanted to pipe in quicklike with this one with some 
> >super-crude test results,
> >
> >Basically I've been compiling a lot of FreeBSD jails lately, so what 
> >the hey, I've thrown in some -j flags informally to see what happens, 
> >here's my results:
> >
> >--
> >Single CPU (crufty old office 800mhz PIII):
> >
> >- No flags, make world takes 49 min average.
> >- j2, j4, j6, j10, all take 50 min average.
> >
> >--
> >Dual CPU (new-ish Dual Xeon 2.6mhz, under other server load):
> >
> >- No flags, make world takes 22 min average.
> >
> >- j2, j4, j6, j10, all take about 12 min average. (NICE.)
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Lots of other stuff could affect my results here, but in a nutshell, 
> >it seems that the j flag has no effect unless there's more than 1 
> >processor.
> >
> >That stated, I'd think that in my scripted jail-build stuff, it would 
> >be worth my time to throw a -j4 flag in there, as it doesn't seem to 
> >hurt much, and what the hey- the systems may port to 4 cpu machines in 
> >the not-too-distant future...
> 
> You should have some way to detect the number of CPUs in the build 
> system.  I don't know how to do this with FreeBSD, but on Mac OS X (any 
> Darwin) you would do the following:
> 
> make -j`sysctl -n hw.ncpu`
> 
> I wouldn't recommend just guessing -j4.  Most people don't have 4 way 
> systems, there is no gain (as you two have proven empirically) if you 
> have less than 4 cpus, and in some cases people are using distcc.  I 
> don't know how common this is for FreeBSD, but it can happen often on 
> Mac OS X because it's so damn easy to setup (a checkbox in Xcode 
> preferences per machine).  I would recommend something equivalent to 
> the above by default, but make a special note for distcc users.  If I 
> have 16 cpus on my network, all running distcc, then I would want "make 
> CC=distcc -j16".  I don't think there's a quick and dirty way to get 
> the number of CPUs available for distcc.
> 



ok to wrap this thread up, i've submitted a PR with freebsd-doc@ as PR#
docs/76515

-pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From ike  Thu Jan 20 20:29:34 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:29:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cooling a cluster...
In-Reply-To: <20050120204105.GB30894@sta.local>
References: <20050120204105.GB30894@sta.local>
Message-ID: <E83E6B53-6B4B-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi George,

On Jan 20, 2005, at 3:41 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> A new office is in the final stages and there is an architect for
> layout and wall construction etc; but someone to do the AC plan is
> needed. It would seem to me, the cluster exhaust could be utilized for
> office heat in the winter, but how exactly is that done? There will be
> a maximum of about 30 computers in a small space, in the center of the
> building. Presently, the plan is to install an 8 ton unit for the 
> entire
> office vs 5 ton AC unit for a no computer office... Can anyone provide
> referrals for the AC designing work? The office is near Hartford CT.
>
> // George

I'm totally not sure about your situation here, but I'll throw this bit 
in-

I grew up around my father's small HVAC business in Kansas City, and 
one thing I can DEFINATELY say, don't guess with the tonnage- simply 
upping the tonnage is NOT A GUARANTEE you'll be able to control the 
climate, get a professional to take a look at the situation.

Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Thu Jan 20 20:36:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:36:01 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <0MKyxe-1CrniU0ZiF-0006Da@mrelay.perfora.net>


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>From Your Peers
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Until next time--



--



From ike  Thu Jan 20 20:36:02 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:36:02 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <CBF69B60-6B1B-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
References: <20050112045805.85F24A879E@virtu.nyphp.org>
	<cdb2c1f305011307203db5294e@mail.gmail.com>
	<58768.160.33.20.11.1105660015.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<A0256826-65C4-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<61624.160.33.20.11.1105663507.squirrel@160.33.20.11>
	<FE7AE260-65C7-11D9-8F98-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
	<20050118225915.GB20375@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050119212417.GI46008@seekingfire.com>
	<20050119223458.GA95295@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<AF8E57BE-6B04-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<CBF69B60-6B1B-11D9-A018-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <CF67AD48-6B4C-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Bob,

On Jan 20, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> make -j`sysctl -n hw.ncpu`

So from here, 'sysctl -n hw.ncpu' works fine on OSXServer(Jaguar even), 
but does not give the proper number of cpu's on the xeon boxes I tried 
it on- it returns '1' on a machine which otherwise is properly running 
as a dual-proc machine.

FreeBSD 4.10, dual XEON 2.6ghz, Tyan Motherboard

>
> I wouldn't recommend just guessing -j4.  Most people don't have 4 way 
> systems, there is no gain (as you two have proven empirically) if you 
> have less than 4 cpus, and in some cases people are using distcc.

I can dig the sentiment that slapping -j4 in there is silly, but if I'm 
doing things between boxes, and the sysctl bit is bugging out, (seems 
so at least), it really doesn't do me any harm does it?  (except in my 
testing it gives approx. 2% time increase on single procs, likely 
managing the process dance...)  What about -j2 even?

Rocket-
.ike




From tillman  Thu Jan 20 20:45:57 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:45:57 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] make -jN performance
In-Reply-To: <20050120171911.GE85710@seekingfire.com>
References: <20050120171408.NQVA1814.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@mxmta.bellnexxia.net>
	<20050120171911.GE85710@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <20050121014557.GK85710@seekingfire.com>

On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 11:19:11AM -0600, Tillman Hodgson wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 12:14:08PM -0500, dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca wrote:
> > Is this on a 4.x or a 5.x system? I'm wondering if there's a difference between the two...
> 
> In my case it was a 4.x system (following -stable at the time). I can
> try it on a -current system if you don't mind waiting a while for
> results.

And I've now done such tests on a -current system.

# uname -a
FreeBSD backforty.seekingfire.prv 6.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 6.0-CURRENT #2: Fri Nov 19 08:03:52 CST 2004 tillman at backforty.seekingfire.prv:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/BACKFORTY  i386

# dmesg <-- I snipped out the interesting bits of the output
CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1700+ (1477.51-MHz 686-class CPU)
real memory  = 268369920 (255 MB)
avail memory = 253235200 (241 MB)
ad0: 19092MB <WDC WD200BB-00AUA1/18.20D18> [38792/16/63] at ata0-master UDMA100

(Yes, a single drive, so /usr/src, /usr/obj, and the OS share a single
spindle).

# cd /usr/obj && rm -rf usr && sleep 60 && cd /usr/src
# time make buildworld
real    78m2.997s
user    62m33.527s
sys     7m48.909s
# cd /usr/obj && rm -rf usr && sleep 60 && cd /usr/src
# time make -j2 buildworld
real    81m7.560s
user    65m47.179s
sys     8m45.934s
# cd /usr/obj && rm -rf usr && sleep 60 && cd /usr/src
# time make -j3 buildworld
real    81m47.648s
user    67m25.276s
sys     8m59.892s
# cd /usr/obj && rm -rf usr && sleep 60 && cd /usr/src
# time make -j4 buildworld
real    84m54.193s
user    70m3.855s
sys     9m21.527s

On this particular hardware, the results got progressively *worse*.

-T


-- 
The correct way to punctuate a sentence that starts: "Of course it is none of
my business but--" is to place a period after the word "but." Don't use
excessive force in supplying such moron with a period. Cutting his throat is
only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.
    -- Robert Heinlein



From george  Fri Jan 21 09:04:38 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:04:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cooling a cluster...
In-Reply-To: <E83E6B53-6B4B-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050120204105.GB30894@sta.local>
	<E83E6B53-6B4B-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050121140438.GA5218@sta.local>

On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 08:29:34PM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote:
>Hi George,
>
>On Jan 20, 2005, at 3:41 PM, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>>A new office is in the final stages and there is an architect for
>>layout and wall construction etc; but someone to do the AC plan is
>>needed. It would seem to me, the cluster exhaust could be utilized for
>>office heat in the winter, but how exactly is that done? There will be
>>a maximum of about 30 computers in a small space, in the center of the
>>building. Presently, the plan is to install an 8 ton unit for the 
>>entire
>>office vs 5 ton AC unit for a no computer office... Can anyone provide
>>referrals for the AC designing work? The office is near Hartford CT.
>>
>>// George
>
>I'm totally not sure about your situation here, but I'll throw this bit 
>in-
>
>I grew up around my father's small HVAC business in Kansas City, and 
>one thing I can DEFINATELY say, don't guess with the tonnage- simply 
>upping the tonnage is NOT A GUARANTEE you'll be able to control the 
>climate, get a professional to take a look at the situation.
>

Yes. I knew there was more to it but wasn't sure what.

...imagine running an 8 ton AC for a rack in the winter? we're looking
at a unit specially (and only for) the rack.  I like the idea of
partitioning the front and the back of the units but that may require
more work than is appropriate here.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From steve  Fri Jan 21 09:45:40 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:45:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] request for feedback
Message-ID: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>

hi all, i respect your opinions, well most of you anyways, and would 
like to know if you can take a look at www.n2sw.com/phpinfo.php. i am 
looking for feedback as to how i compiled php with various components. 
if you have ideas about how i can make it better or if i have done 
something wrong please do let me know thanx.

PS. this is not for work, so please  dont tell me to hire a consultant.



From dan  Fri Jan 21 09:51:01 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:51:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] request for feedback
In-Reply-To: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <41F0D085.3262.1277150E@localhost>

On 21 Jan 2005 at 9:45, steve wrote:

> PS. this is not for work, so please  dont tell me to hire a
> consultant.

I see no need for such disclaimers on this list.  Or any other list 
I'm on for that matter.  If others feel differently, this is not the 
list I thought it was.

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From george  Fri Jan 21 09:52:22 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:52:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] request for feedback
In-Reply-To: <41F0D085.3262.1277150E@localhost>
References: <41F0D085.3262.1277150E@localhost>
Message-ID: <0EAE7CCF-6BBC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 21 Jan 2005 at 9:45, steve wrote:
>
>> PS. this is not for work, so please  dont tell me to hire a
>> consultant.
>
> I see no need for such disclaimers on this list.  Or any other list
> I'm on for that matter.  If others feel differently, this is not the
> list I thought it was.
>

Ditto . . . Nobody even says RTFM on this list, so why would they say 
that?

g




From o_sleep  Fri Jan 21 09:59:00 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:59:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] request for feedback
In-Reply-To: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
References: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <FB75CA84-6BBC-11D9-B725-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>


> hi all, i respect your opinions, well most of you anyways, and would 
> like to know if you can take a look at www.n2sw.com/phpinfo.php. i am 
> looking for feedback as to how i compiled php with various components. 
> if you have ideas about how i can make it better or if i have done 
> something wrong please do let me know thanx.

For a general question, I have a random answer.  I was having problems 
with running mod_perl using the GD cpan module when I had GD compiled 
into perl.  It caused httpd to crash.  Couldn't figure out why.

-Bjorn




From o_sleep  Fri Jan 21 10:05:24 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:05:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] request for feedback
In-Reply-To: <FB75CA84-6BBC-11D9-B725-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>
References: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
	<FB75CA84-6BBC-11D9-B725-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <E0AB3522-6BBD-11D9-B725-003065B84EC8@belovedarctos.com>

I meant when I had GD compiled into php.

-Bjorn

On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Bjorn Nelson wrote:

>
>> hi all, i respect your opinions, well most of you anyways, and would 
>> like to know if you can take a look at www.n2sw.com/phpinfo.php. i am 
>> looking for feedback as to how i compiled php with various 
>> components. if you have ideas about how i can make it better or if i 
>> have done something wrong please do let me know thanx.
>
> For a general question, I have a random answer.  I was having problems 
> with running mod_perl using the GD cpan module when I had GD compiled 
> into perl.  It caused httpd to crash.  Couldn't figure out why.
>
> -Bjorn
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month




From nycbug  Fri Jan 21 11:03:03 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:03:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: request for feedback
In-Reply-To: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
References: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <20050121160303.GA46040@florian.hastek.net>

steve:
> hi all, i respect your opinions, well most of you anyways, and would 
> like to know if you can take a look at www.n2sw.com/phpinfo.php. i am 
> looking for feedback as to how i compiled php with various components. 

I'll venture a couple of comments

- You've a lot of stuff in there - I know that took a while to
figure out!

- looks like you used IMAP 2004a but the phpinfo app reports
  c-client version 2000 .. wonder if that's just a confusion or if
at compile time an earlier c-client was found and used?

- some apps using xml are going to want xml-dom (and maybe xslt) support;
  it's good to include them if you've gone this far..

- looks like your mod_perl is statically built - that's good

- you might include --with-mime-magic into the PHP build


Harold


















From steve  Fri Jan 21 11:27:19 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:27:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me 
Message-ID: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>

figured that some of you could redo it a it for your bsd boxes. dont 
know if can send attachements so i enclosed it



#!/bin/ksh
#
#set -vx
# $Header: /home/CVS/cfg2html_sun/cfg2html_sun.sh,v 1.10 2004/06/03 
4:33:40 ralproth Exp $
############################################################################
# $Log: cfg2html_sun.sh,v $
# Revision 1.11B 2004/08/02 10:33
# Some test in Solaris 9
# Change to eject prtdiag -v correctly
# Modify to recolect info over veritas vm 3.5
#
# Revision 1.10  2004/06/03 14:33:40
#
# Revision 1.9  2004/06/02 13:52:16
# Checked in new version from MVL, send back for testing
#
# Revision 1.5  2004/06/02 13:48:36
# I tested it to work fine on Solaris 7 and 8 and got good output with 
VxVM 3.2 and 4.0
# (3.5 is alike 4.0 so I expect no hickups there). The bulk of the work 
went into rearranging the VxVM stuff.
# In may cases we got double the information, guess that's fixed now.
#
# Revision 1.7  2004/04/26 15:31:17
# ! Merged the enhancements from MVL
#
# Revision 1.6  2003/02/03 14:51:48
# Fixed cvs keywords, added log and version
#
############################################################################


PATH=$PATH:/local/bin:/local/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/local/gnu/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/local/X11/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/dt/bin:/usr/proc/bin:/usr/ucb:/local/misc/openv/netbackup/bin
#
# use "no" to disable a collection
#
CFG_SYSTEM="yes"
CFG_KERNEL="yes"
CFG_HARDWARE="yes"
CFG_FILESYS="yes"
CFG_DISKS="yes"
CFG_NETWORK="yes"
CFG_PRINTER="yes"
CFG_CRON="yes"
CFG_PASSWD="yes"
CFG_SOFTWARE="yes"
CFG_FILES="yes"
CFG_APPLICATIONS="yes"
CFG_DISKSUITE="yes"
CFG_VXVA="yes"
CFG_VXVM="yes"
CFG_VXFS="yes"
CFG_SAP="yes"
GIF="yes"
OUTDIR=`pwd`
#MVL
VERSION=" "$(echo "$Revision: 1.11b $" | cut -f2 -d" ")
#MVL
#
#
#
usage() {
    echo "  Usage: `basename $0` [OPTION]"
    echo "  creates HTML and plain ASCII host documentation"
    echo
    echo "  -o		set directory to write or use the environment"
    echo "		variable OUTDIR=\"/path/to/dir\" (directory must"
    echo "		exist"
    echo "  -v		output version information and exit"
    echo "  -h		display this help and exit"
    echo
    echo "  use the following options to disable collections:"
    echo
    echo "  -s		disable: System"
    echo "  -k		disable: Kernel"
    echo "  -H		disable: Hardware"
    echo "  -f		disable: Filesystems"
    echo "  -d		disable: Disks"
    echo "  -n		disable: Network"
    echo "  -P		disable: Printers"
    echo "  -c		disable: Cron"
    echo "  -p		disable: Passwords"
    echo "  -S		disable: Software"
    echo "  -F		disable: Files"
    echo "  -a		disable: Applications"
    echo "  -D		disable: DiskSuite"
    echo "  -x		don't create background images"
    echo
}
#
# getopt
#
#
while getopts ":o:skHfdnPcpSFaDx" Option
do
    case $Option in
       o     ) OUTDIR=$OPTARG;;
       v     ) echo $VERSION;exit;;
       h     ) usage;exit;;
       x     ) GIF="no";;
       s     ) CFG_SYSTEM="no";;
       c     ) CFG_CRON="no";;
       S     ) CFG_SOFTWARE="no";;
       f     ) CFG_FILESYS="no";;
       d     ) CFG_DISKS="no";;
       k     ) CFG_KERNEL="no";;
       F     ) CFG_FILES="no";;
       n     ) CFG_NETWORK="no";;
       a     ) CFG_APPLICATIONS="no";;
       p     ) CFG_PASSWD="no";;
       P     ) CFG_PRINTER="no";;
       H     ) CFG_HARDWARE="no";;
       *     ) echo "Unimplemented option chosen.";exit 1;;   # DEFAULT
    esac
done

shift $(($OPTIND - 1))
# Decrements the argument pointer so it points to next argument.

VERSION="cfg2html/SUN Version "$(echo "$Revision: 1.11b $" | cut -f2 -d" ")
###MYNAME=`whence $0`
###CFG_HOME=`dirname $MYNAME`
##CFG_HOME="/usr/local/scripts"
CFG_HOME=`pwd`
PLUGINS=$CFG_HOME/plugins
HTML_OUTFILE=$OUTDIR/`uname -n`_cfg.html
HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP=/tmp/`uname -n`.html.$$
TEXT_OUTFILE=$OUTDIR/`uname -n`_cfg.txt
TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP=/tmp/`uname -n`.txt.$$
ERROR_LOG=$OUTDIR/`uname -n`_cfg.err
touch $HTML_OUTFILE
#echo "Starting up $VERSION\r"
[ -s "$ERROR_LOG" ] && rm -f $ERROR_LOG 2> /dev/null
DATE=`date "+%Y-%m-%d"` # ISO8601 compliant date string
DATEFULL=`date "+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S"` # ISO8601 compliant date and time 
string
IPADDRESS=`cut -d"#" -f1 /etc/hosts | awk '{for (i=2; i<=NF; i++) if 
("'$HOSTNAME'" == $i) {print $1; exit} }'`
ANTPROS=`psrinfo | awk 'END {print NR}'`
SPEED=`psrinfo -v | awk '/MHz/{print $(NF-1); exit }'`
CPU=`uname -p`
TYPE=`uname -i`
LC_TIME="" date +"%a %b %e %Y   %H:%M"
CURRDATE=`LC_TIME="" date +"%b %e %Y"`
#Let the cache expire since this script runes every night
EXPIRE_CACHE=`LC_TIME="" date "+%a, %d %b %Y "`"23:00 GMT"

# Convert illegal characters for HTML into escaped ones.
# Convert '&' first!
CONVSTR='
s/&/\&amp;/g
s/</\&lt;/g
s/>/\&gt;/g
s/\\/\&#92;/g
'

line ( ) {
    echo -------------------------------------------------
}

echo "\n"

#########################################################
#    Check that you are running the script as root user
#########################################################
if [ `id|cut -c5-11` != "0(root)" ] ; then
    banner "Sorry"
    line
    echo "You must run this script as Root\n"
    exit 1
fi

######### Check if /plugin dir is there #############################
if [ ! -x $PLUGINS/get_sap.sh ] ; then
    banner "Error"
    line
    echo "Installation Error, the plugin directory is missing or execute 
bit is not set"
    echo "You MUST install cfg2html via  tar xvf"
    echo "Plugin-Dir = $PLUGINS"
    exit 1
fi

exec 2> $ERROR_LOG

if [ ! -f $HTML_OUTFILE ] ; then
    banner "Error"
    line
    echo "You have not the rights to create $HTML_OUTFILE! (NFS?)\n"
    exit 1
fi

COMPUTER_NAME=`uname -n`
VERSION_=`uname -r`
typeset -i HEADL=0                       #Headinglevel

osrev=`uname -r`

if [ "$osrev" -lt 2 ] ; then
    banner "Sorry"
    line
    echo "$0: Requires Solaris 2.6 or better!\n"
    exit 1
fi

####################################################################
# needs improvement!
# trap "echo Signal: Aborting!; rm $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP"  2 13 15
####################################################################
#
####################################################################
#  Header of HTML file
####################################################################

open_html() {
    echo " \
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML> <HEAD>
  <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Selfmade-$RCCS-vi Solaris 2.x">
  <META NAME="AUTHOR" CONTENT="t505414 at online.no">
  <META NAME="CREATED" CONTENT="Trond Eirik Aune">
  <META NAME="CHANGED" CONTENT="`id` %A%">
  <META NAME="DESCRIPTION" CONTENT="$Header: 
/home/CVS/cfg2html_sun/cfg2html_sun.sh,v 1.10 2004/06/03 14:33:40 
ralproth Exp $DATE root Exp $">
  <META NAME="subject" CONTENT="$VERSION on $COMPUTER_NAME by 
t505414 at online.no">
<TITLE>${COMPUTER_NAME} - Documentation - $VERSION</TITLE>
</HEAD><BODY>
<BODY LINK="#0000ff" VLINK="#800080" BACKGROUND="cfg2html_back.jpg">
<H1><CENTER><FONT COLOR=blue>
<P><hr><B>$COMPUTER_NAME - SunOS "`uname -r`" System Documentation</P></H1>
<hr><FONT COLOR=blue><small>Created "$DATEFULL" with " $VERSION 
"</font></center></B></small>
<HR><H1>Contents\n</font></H1>\n\
" >$HTML_OUTFILE

    (line;banner $COMPUTER_NAME;line) > $TEXT_OUTFILE
    echo "\n" >> $TEXT_OUTFILE
    echo "\n" > $TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP
}

######################################################################
#  Increases the headling level
######################################################################

inc_heading_level() {
    HEADL=HEADL+1
    ##
    ## no we want to have it otherways
    ## it233 U.Frey
    ##echo "<UL>\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE
    echo "<UL type='square'>\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE        # !!!!!
}

######################################################################
#  Decreases the heading level
######################################################################

dec_heading_level() {
    HEADL=HEADL-1
    echo "</UL>\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE
}

######################################################################
#  Creates an own paragraph, $1 = heading
######################################################################

paragraph() {
    if [ "$HEADL" -eq 1 ] ; then
       echo "\n<HR>\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    fi
    #echo "\n<table WIDTH="90%"><tr 
BGCOLOR="#CCCCCC"><td>\n">>$HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<A NAME=\"$1\">" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<A HREF=\"#Inhalt-$1\"><H${HEADL}> $1 </H${HEADL}></A><P>" >> 
$HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    #echo "<A HREF=\"#Inhalt-$1\"><H${HEADL}> $1 
</H${HEADL}></A></table><P>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP

    ##
    ## no we do not want the gif at begin of line
    ## it233 30Jan2003 U.Frey
    ##echo "<IMG SRC="profbull.gif" WIDTH=14 HEIGHT=14>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE
    echo "<A NAME=\"Inhalt-$1\"></A><A HREF=\"#$1\">$1</A>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE
    echo "\nCollecting: " $1 " .\c"
    echo "    $1" >> $TEXT_OUTFILE
}

######################################################################
#  Documents the single commands and their output
#  $1  = unix command,  $2 = text for the heading
######################################################################

exec_command() {
    if [ -z "$3" ] ; then	# if string 3 is zero
       TiTel="$1"
    else
       TiTel="$3"
    fi


    echo ".\c"

    echo "\n---=[ $2 
]=----------------------------------------------------------------" | 
cut -c1-74 >> $TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "       - $2" >> $TEXT_OUTFILE
    ######the working horse##########
    TMP_EXEC_COMMAND_ERR=/tmp/exec_cmd.tmp.$$
    EXECRES=`eval $1 2> $TMP_EXEC_COMMAND_ERR | expand | cut -c 1-150 | 
sed "$CONVSTR"`
    if [ -z "$EXECRES" ] ; then
       EXECRES="n/a"
    fi
    if [ -s $TMP_EXEC_COMMAND_ERR ] ; then
       echo "stderr output from \"$1\":" >> $ERROR_LOG
       cat $TMP_EXEC_COMMAND_ERR | sed 's/^/    /' >> $ERROR_LOG
    fi
    rm -f $TMP_EXEC_COMMAND_ERR

    echo "\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<A NAME=\"$2\"></A> <A HREF=\"#Inhalt-$2\" 
title=\"$TiTel\"><H${HEADL}> $2 </H${HEADL}></A>\n" >>$HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<PRE><B>$EXECRES</B></PRE>\n"  >>$HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<meta http-equiv=\"expires\" 
content=\"${EXPIRE_CACHE}\">">>$HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    # echo "<PRE><SMALL><B>$EXECRES</B></SMALL></PRE>\n" 
 >>$HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<LI><A NAME=\"Inhalt-$2\"></A><A HREF=\"#$2\" 
title=\"$TiTel\">$2</A>\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE
    echo "\n$EXECRES\n" >> $TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP
}

################# Schedule a job for killing commands which ###############
################# may hang under special conditions.  #####
# Argument 1: regular expression to search processlist for. Be careful
# when specifiying this so you don't kill any more processes than
# those you are looking for!
# Argument 2: number of minutes to wait for process to complete.
######################################################################

KillOnHang() {
    TMP_KILL_OUTPUT=/tmp/kill_hang.tmp.$$
    at now + $2 minutes 1>$TMP_KILL_OUTPUT 2>&1 <<EOF
    ps -ef | grep root | grep -v grep | egrep $1 | awk '{print \$2}' | 
sort -n -r | xargs kill
EOF
    AT_JOB_NR=`egrep '^job' $TMP_KILL_OUTPUT | awk '{print \$2}'`
    rm -f $TMP_KILL_OUTPUT
}

######################################################################
# You should always match a KillOnHang() call with a matching call
# to this function immediately after the command which could hang
# has properly finished.
CancelKillOnHang() {
    at -r $AT_JOB_NR
}

################# adds a text to the output files, rar, 25.04.99 ##########

AddText() {
    echo "<p>$*</p>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "$*\n" >> $TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP
}

######################################################################
#  end of the html document
######################################################################

close_html() {
    echo "<hr>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE
    echo "</P><P>\n<hr><FONT COLOR=blue>Created "$DATEFULL" with " 
$VERSION " by <A 
HREF="mailto:sysadmin at localhost?subject=$VERSION_">Trond E. Aune, 
SysAdm</A></P></font>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "</P><P>\n<FONT COLOR=blue>Based on the original script by <A 
HREF=/quot 
mailto:cfg2html&#64;&#104;&#111;&#116;&#109;&#97;&#105;&#108;&#46;&#99;&#111;&#109?subject=$VERSION_/quot 
 >Ralph Roth</A></P></font>" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    echo "<hr><center><A HREF="http://come.to/cfg2html">  [ Download 
cfg2html from external home page ] 
</b></A></center></P><hr></BODY></HTML>\n" >> $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP
    cat $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP >>$HTML_OUTFILE
    cat $TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP >> $TEXT_OUTFILE
    rm $HTML_OUTFILE_TEMP $TEXT_OUTFILE_TEMP
       echo "\n\nCreated "$DATEFULL" with " $VERSION >> $TEXT_OUTFILE
}

######################################################################
#######################  M A I N  ####################################
######################################################################
line
##
##
## Bug corrected on display output files, no $PWD
## must be used here
## 30Jan2003
echo "Starting          "$VERSION" on a "`uname -rsi`" box"
echo "Path to cfg2html  "$0
echo "Path to plugins   "$PLUGINS
echo "HTML Output File  "$HTML_OUTFILE
echo "Text Output File  "$TEXT_OUTFILE
echo "Errors logged to  "$ERROR_LOG
echo "Started at        "$DATEFULL
echo "Problem           If cfg2html hangs on Hardware, press twice ENTER"
echo "                  or Crtl-D. Then check or update your Diagnostics!"
echo "WARNING           USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! :-))"
#echo "License      Freeware"
line

logger "Start of $VERSION"
open_html
inc_heading_level

######################################################################
if [ "$CFG_SYSTEM" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Solaris/System"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command "hostname" "Hostname"
    exec_command "uname -n" "Host aliases"
    exec_command "uname -sr" "OS version"
    exec_command "uname -mi" "Hardware type"
    exec_command "prtconf | awk '/^Memory size:/ { print $3 }'" "Memory 
size"
    exec_command "echo 'CPU's:' $ANTPROS of type $CPU $SPEED MHz" "CPU's"
    exec_command "uptime;sar" "Uptime, load & sar"
    exec_command "sar -b" "Buffer activity"

    dec_heading_level

fi

###########################################################################
#	Kernel Information
###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_KERNEL" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Kernel"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command "modinfo" "Loaded kernel modules"
    exec_command "sysdef -D" "System peripheral device driver"
    ##
    ## we want also display the /etc/system file
    ## it is important
    ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
    if [ -e "/etc/system" ] ; then
       exec_command "cat /etc/system" "Parameter in /etc/system"
       exec_command "ls -l /etc/system*" "Boot types of /etc/system"
    fi

    #for i in `sysdef -d |cut -f2 -d"'"`
    #do
    #echo "System pheriphial: $i"
    #sysdef $i
    #exec_command "sysdef $i  2>&1" "System  peripheral $i"
    #done

    dec_heading_level

fi

######################################################################
#	Harware Information
###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_HARDWARE" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Hardware"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command "/usr/platform/`uname -i`/sbin/prtdiag -v" "Hardware 
(prtdiag)"
    exec_command "prtconf -v" "Hardware (prtconf)"
    #exec_command "sysinfo -class Device" "Devices"

    dec_heading_level

fi

######################################################################
#	Filesystem Information
###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_FILESYS" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Filesystems, dump and swap configuration"
    inc_heading_level

    ##
    ## we want to display the boot types
    ## of vfstab too
    ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
    if [ -e "/etc/vfstab" ] ; then
       exec_command "ls -l /etc/vfstab*" "Boot types of /etc/vfstab"
    fi

    exec_command "df -k" "Filesystems and usage"

    if [ -f /etc/exports ] ; then
       exec_command "cat /etc/exports|grep -v '^#'" "NFS filesystems"
    fi
    exec_command "swap -l" "Swap"

    exec_command "vmstat -s" "Kernel paging events"
    dec_heading_level
fi

###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_DISKS" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Disks"
    inc_heading_level

    disklist () {
    if [ -d "/opt/IBMdpo" ] ; then
      format <<-EOF | grep "^ *[0-9][0-9]*\. " | awk '{ print $2 }' | 
grep -v vpath
EOF
    else
      format <<-EOF | grep "^ *[0-9][0-9]*\. " | awk '{ print $2 }'
EOF
    fi
    }

    verdisk () {
       format -d $1 <<-EOF | sed '1,/format> /d' | sed 's/format> //g'
       verify
       inquiry
       quit
EOF
    }

    for i in `disklist`
    do
       exec_command "verdisk $i 2>&1" "Disk $i"
    done

    dec_heading_level

#####################
### EMC Powerpath ###
#####################

    if [ -e "/opt/EMCpower/bin/powermt" ] ; then

       paragraph "EMC"
       inc_heading_level

       EMCver=`pkginfo -l EMCpower | grep -i version:`
       exec_command "echo $EMCver" "EMCpower version"

       ##
       ## if there are EMC Disks display them with inq
       ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
       if [ -e "/opt/emc/SInquiry/V4.1/bin/inq" ] ; then
	 exec_command "/opt/emc/SInquiry/V4.1/bin/inq" "EMC disks inquire"
       fi
       ##
       ## if EMCpower is installed display the powermt output
       ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
       if [ -e "/opt/EMCpower/bin/powermt" ] ; then
	 exec_command "/opt/EMCpower/bin/powermt display dev=all" "EMC Power 
display"
       fi

       dec_heading_level
    fi
fi

###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_DISKSUITE" != "no" ] ; then

   paragraph "Solstice DiskSuite"
   inc_heading_level
   # Modify for use in old version of SDS
   if [ -e "/usr/opt/SUNWmd/sbin/metadb" ] ; then
	  pathsds="/usr/opt/SUNWmd/sbin"
   fi
   if [ -e "/usr/sbin/metadb" ] ; then
	  pathsds="/usr/sbin"
   fi

   if [ -e "$pathsds/metadb" ] ; then
     exec_command "$pathsds/metadb -i" "Status SDS metadb"
   fi

   if [ -f $pathsds/metastat ] ; then
     ##
     ## awk does not work in the command below
     ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
     ##DSVER=`pkginfo -l SUNWmdu | grep -i version: | awk'{ print }'`
     DSVER=`pkginfo -l SUNWmdu | grep -i version:`
     exec_command "echo $DSVER" "DiskSuite version" "pkginfo -l SUNWmdu"
     for i in metadb metastat ; do
       ##
       ## wrong path to metastat
       ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
       exec_command "$pathsds/$i" "$i"
     done
   fi

   ## if there are Solstice Disk Suite Devices
   ## we display the Device configuration
   ## 30jan2003 it233 U.Frey
   if [ -e "$pathsds/metastat" ] ; then
     exec_command "$pathsds/metastat -t" "Status SDS devices"
   fi

   dec_heading_level
fi

###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_NETWORK" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Network Settings"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command "ifconfig -a" "ifconfig"
    exec_command "netstat -an" "list of all sockets"
    exec_command "netstat -in" "list of all IP addresses"
    exec_command "netstat -rvn" "list of all routing table entries"
    exec_command "cat /etc/resolv.conf" "resolv.conf"
    exec_command "ypwhich 2>&1" "ypwhich"
    exec_command "domainname" "domainname"
    exec_command "nslookup `hostname`" "nslookup hostname"

    dec_heading_level
fi

###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_PRINTER" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Printers"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command "lpstat -s" "Configured printers"
    exec_command "lpstat -d" "Default printer"
    exec_command "lpstat -t" "Status printers"

    dec_heading_level
fi

###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_CRON" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "cron and at"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command $PLUGINS/crontab_collect.sh "Crontab and AT scheduler"

    dec_heading_level

fi

###########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_PASSWD" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Passwords and group consistency"
    inc_heading_level

    exec_command "cat /etc/passwd | sed 
's&:.*:\([-0-9][0-9]*:[-0-9][0-9]*:\)&:x:\1&'" "/etc/passwd"
    exec_command "pwck 2>&1" "Errors found in passwd"
    exec_command "cat /etc/group" "/etc/group"
    exec_command "grpck 2>&1" "Errors found in group"

    dec_heading_level

fi

######################################################################
#  patch statistics
######################################################################
if [ "$CFG_SOFTWARE" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Software"
    inc_heading_level

    #list_pkg () {
    #pkginfo -l | awk '/^ *PKGINST:/{print}
		     #/^ *NAME:/{print}
		     #/^ *CATEGORY:/{print}
		     #/^ *VERSION:/{print}
		     #/^$/{print}' |
    #sed '/^ *PKGINST:/{s/^ *PKGINST: *//; s/$/;/;}
	#/^ *NAME:/{s/^ *NAME: *//; s/$/;/;}
	#/^ *CATEGORY:/{s/^ *CATEGORY: *//; s/,.*//; s/$/;/;}
	#/^ *VERSION:/{s/^ *VERSION: *//;}' |
    #sed -n '/./{
	   #h
	   #:top
	   #n
	   #/./H
	   #/./b top
	   #g
	   #s/\n//g
	   #p
	   #}' |
    #sed 's/^\([^;]*\);\([^;]*\);\([^;]*\);\([^;]*\)$/\3;\1;\4; \2 ;/'
    #}

    #exec_command "list_pkg | sed 's/ ;$//' | tr ';' '\011' | expand 
-t1,12,26,60" "Filesets installed "

    exec_command "pkginfo " "Filesets installed "
    exec_command "showrev -p" "Patches installed "

    dec_heading_level

fi

######################################################################
#  files statistics
######################################################################
if [ "$CFG_FILES" != "no" ] ; then

    paragraph "Files"
    inc_heading_level
    exec_command "cat /etc/inittab" "inittab"
    files()
    {
       ls /etc/hosts
       ls /etc/rc2.d/*
       ls /etc/rc3.d/*
    }
    COUNT=1
    for FILE in `files`
    do
       exec_command "cat ${FILE}" "${FILE}"
       COUNT=`expr $COUNT + 1`
    done

    dec_heading_level

fi

##########################################################################
if [ "$CFG_APPLICATIONS" != "no" ] ; then

#  paragraph "Applications and subsystems"

    ## we want to display HP OpenVantage Operations configurations
      if [ -e /opt/OV/bin/OpC/utils/opcdcode ] ; then

       paragraph "HP Openview"
       inc_heading_level
       if [ -e /opt/OV/bin/OpC/install/opcinfo ] ; then
	 exec_command "cat /opt/OV/bin/OpC/install/opcinfo" "HP Openview info, 
Version"
       fi

       if [ -e /var/opt/OV/conf/OpC/monitor ] ; then
	 exec_command "/opt/OV/bin/OpC/utils/opcdcode 
/var/opt/OV/conf/OpC/monitor | grep DESCRIPTION" "HP Openview 
Configuration Monitor"
       fi

       if [ -e /var/opt/OV/conf/OpC/le ] ; then
	 exec_command "/opt/OV/bin/OpC/utils/opcdcode /var/opt/OV/conf/OpC/le | 
grep DESCRIPTION" "HP Openview Configuration Logging"
       fi

       dec_heading_level

    fi

#-------------------------
    ## we want to display Veritas netbackup configurations
       if [ -e /usr/openv/netbackup/bp.conf ] ; then

       paragraph "Veritas Netbackup"
       inc_heading_level
       if [ -e /usr/openv/netbackup/version ] ; then
	 exec_command "cat /usr/openv/netbackup/version" "Veritas Netbackup 
version"
       fi
       exec_command "cat /usr/openv/netbackup/bp.conf" "Veritas 
Netbackup configuration"

       dec_heading_level

    fi

    ### VXVA 
###################################################################
#  if [ "$CFG_VXVA" != "no" ] ; then
#
#     paragraph "VXVA"
#     inc_heading_level
#
#     pkginfo VRTSvxva > /dev/null
#     if [ $? ]; then
#       for i in `vxdg list |awk '{print ($1)}'|grep -v NAME` ; do
#         exec_command "echo $i" "volume group"
#         exec_command "vxdg list $i" "Content of $i"
#       done
#       exec_command "vxprint" "vxprint"
#       exec_command "vxdg free" "vxdg free"
#     fi
#
#     dec_heading_level
#  fi

    ### VXVM 
##################################################################
    if [ "$CFG_VXVM" != "no" ] ; then

       paragraph "VxVM"
       inc_heading_level

       pkginfo VRTSvxvm > /dev/null
       if [ $? ]; then
	 VXVMVER=`pkginfo -l VRTSvxvm | grep -i version: | awk '{ print $2 }'`
	 exec_command "echo $VXVMVER" "VxVM version" "pkginfo -l VRTSvxvm"
	 exec_command "vxdisk list" "vxdisk list"
          exec_command $PLUGINS/VxVM_collect.sh "VxVM collector"
	 for i in `vxdg list |awk '{print ($1)}'|grep -v NAME` ; do
	    exec_command "vxdg list $i" "$i"
	 done
#        exec_command "vxprint" "vxprint"
	 exec_command "vxdg free" "vxdg free"

          if [ -f /etc/vx/elm/* ] ; then
            exec_command "vxlicense -p" "vxlicense -p" # for <3.5 only
            for i in `ls /etc/vx/elm/*` ; do
	     exec_command "cat $i" "license file $i"
	   done
          fi
          if [ -f /etc/vx/licenses/lic/* ] ; then
               # for >3.5 only
               if [ -f /opt/VRTSvlic/bin/vxlicrep ] ; then
                   exec_command "/opt/VRTSvlic/bin/vxlicrep" "VXVM 
licensing"
               else
	          exec_command "vxlicrep" "VXVM licensing"
               fi
          fi
      fi

       dec_heading_level
    fi

    ### VXFS 
##################################################################
    if [ "$CFG_VXFS" != "no" ] ; then

       paragraph "VxFS"
       inc_heading_level

       pkginfo VRTSvxfs > /dev/null
       if [ $? ] ; then
	 VXFSVER=`pkginfo -l VRTSvxfs | grep -i version: | awk '{ print $2 }'`
	 exec_command "echo $VXFSVER" "VxFS version" "pkginfo -l VRTSvxfs"
       fi

       dec_heading_level
    fi

    ### Oracle ####################################
    if [ -f /etc/oratab ] ; then

        paragraph "Oracle"
        inc_heading_level
    #
    ###
    ## grep -v -E does not work on Sun
           exec_command "cat /etc/oratab | grep -v '^#|^$|N'" 
"Configured Oracle databases"
        ##
        ## we want each Sid displayed with title
        for  DB in `grep ':' /etc/oratab|grep -v '#'|grep -v 'N'`
	  do
	    Ora_Home=`echo $DB | awk -F: '{print $2}'`
	    Sid=`echo $DB | awk -F: '{print $1}'`
	    Init=${Ora_Home}/dbs/init${Sid}.ora
	    exec_command "cat $Init" "Oracle Instance $Sid"
	  done
        ##
        ## each Sid displayed without title
        ## 30Jan2003 it233 U.Frey
        ##exec_command $PLUGINS/oracle_collect.sh "Oracle databases"
        dec_heading_level
    fi

 
###########################################################################
    if [ "$(grep 'informix' /etc/passwd)" != "" ] ; then

       paragraph "Informix"
       inc_heading_level
       exec_command "su - informix -c \"onstat -l\"" "Configured 
Informix databases"
       dec_heading_level
    fi

 
###########################################################################
    if [ "$CFG_SAP" = "yes" ] ; then

       if [ -d /usr/sap ] ; then
	 paragraph "SAP R3"
	 inc_heading_level
	 exec_command $PLUGINS/get_sap.sh "SAP R3 configuration"

	 [ -f /etc/sapconf ] && exec_command "cat /etc/sapconf" "Local 
configured SAP R3 instances"
	 dec_heading_level
       fi
    fi

fi # terminates CFG_APPLICATIONS wrapper

close_html
###########################################################################

logger "End of $VERSION"
echo "\n"
line

rm -f core > /dev/null

########## remove the error.log if it has size zero #######################
[ ! -s "$ERROR_LOG" ] && rm -f $ERROR_LOG 2> /dev/null

if [ "$1" != "-x" ] ;then
    exit 0
fi



From pete  Fri Jan 21 13:18:07 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:18:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] request for feedback
In-Reply-To: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
References: <41F11594.3090501@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <20050121181807.GA2534@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Fri, Jan 21, 2005 at 09:45:40AM -0500, steve wrote:
> hi all, i respect your opinions, well most of you anyways, and would 
> like to know if you can take a look at www.n2sw.com/phpinfo.php. i am 
> looking for feedback as to how i compiled php with various components. 
> if you have ideas about how i can make it better or if i have done 
> something wrong please do let me know thanx.
> 


without knowing what you are going to be using this php install for it's
hard to say specifically but a couple things i noticed.  you've obviously
enabled alot of flags on your php build...are all of them neccessary?  for
example do you need the --enable-ftp flag, i'm just thinking that these
are alot of things to keep track of from a security perspective.  you've 
also turned on support for pgsql and mysql, are you planning on using both
DB's?  i'm more of the type that keeps things pretty lean and mean on my
install's....it's easier to keep track of what's doing what and makes security
and debugging easier to track down.  just my two bits...and hoping that i
fall into the group whose opinion you respect on the list ;)

-p



-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Fri Jan 21 13:54:24 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:54:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me
In-Reply-To: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>
References: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <52433.24.130.167.5.1106333664.squirrel@24.130.167.5>


> figured that some of you could redo it a it for your bsd boxes. dont
> know if can send attachements so i enclosed it
>
>
> usage() {
>     echo "  Usage: `basename $0` [OPTION]"
>     echo "  creates HTML and plain ASCII host documentation"
>     echo


sorry havn't had time to fully study this.  but how does it generate the
doc, by reading various known locations of apps and probing for hardware
configs?  just curious...looks pretty interesting tho.

-p


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866




From jeff.knight  Fri Jan 21 14:04:54 2005
From: jeff.knight (Jeff Knight)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:04:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me
In-Reply-To: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>
References: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <2ca9ba91050121110450b4b3d4@mail.gmail.com>

It is probably wise to avoid the terms "cool script" and "buddy sent
me" in the subjects of any email. Gmail marked this as spam, even with
my nycbug filters, and in all honesty, if it wasn't from nycbug (&
Gmail's display of the first line of the message in its spam list) I
would have flushed it with extreme predjudice.


On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:27:19 -0500, steve <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> figured that some of you could redo it a it for your bsd boxes. dont
> know if can send attachements so i enclosed it....



From mikel.king  Fri Jan 21 15:18:10 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:18:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Article on PC Mag aout BSD
Message-ID: <41F16382.3000103@ocsny.com>

OS Alternatives

It's hard to browse the Web or read a computer magazine without 
finding a reference to Linux, the operating-system wunderkind 
created by Linus Torvalds and developed by a host of others. 
But although Linux steals the headlines, ISPs and system 
administrators often choose one of the BSDs--a group of operating 
systems based on code polished during more than 20 years of 
research at one of America's leading academic institutions.

What are the BSDs? And why should you consider using them if 
you're looking for a non-Windows operating system? Read today's 
tip to find out.

For the solution, click below: 
http://ct.enews.pcmag.com/rd/cts?d=184-1436-5-55-2011-145253-0-0-0-1




From lists  Fri Jan 21 15:33:29 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:33:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
Message-ID: <20050121153329.2e3a35b1@delinux.abwatley.com>

Has anyone had any experience with network cameras?  I was looking at
the d-link or Axis or something like that.

-- 
---



From rick  Fri Jan 21 15:39:27 2005
From: rick (Rick Aliwalas)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:39:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Article on PC Mag aout BSD
In-Reply-To: <41F16382.3000103@ocsny.com>
References: <41F16382.3000103@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.61.0501211537270.22427@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Mikel King wrote:

> What are the BSDs? And why should you consider using them if you're looking 
> for a non-Windows operating system? Read today's tip to find out.
>
> For the solution, click below: 
> http://ct.enews.pcmag.com/rd/cts?d=184-1436-5-55-2011-145253-0-0-0-1

The article is not too recent - 11.27.01.




From george  Fri Jan 21 15:40:26 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:40:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <20050121153329.2e3a35b1@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20050121153329.2e3a35b1@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <AE70B8FA-6BEC-11D9-AD9D-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 21, 2005, at 3:33 PM, michael wrote:

> Has anyone had any experience with network cameras?  I was looking at
> the d-link or Axis or something like that.
>
>

Please expand. . . for who?  for what purpose?  business?  snooping on 
your snooty manhattan neighbors?

I'm asking since I've dealt a bit with high level DVR systems. . . so I 
could speak to the guy who does the cameras themselves. . . or do you 
mean the system in general?

g




From lists  Fri Jan 21 15:54:59 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:54:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <AE70B8FA-6BEC-11D9-AD9D-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <20050121153329.2e3a35b1@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<AE70B8FA-6BEC-11D9-AD9D-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050121155459.1fb7529d@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:40:26 -0500
"G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:

> 
> Please expand. . . for who?  for what purpose?  business?  snooping on
> your snooty manhattan neighbors?
> 
> I'm asking since I've dealt a bit with high level DVR systems. . . so
> I could speak to the guy who does the cameras themselves. . . or do
> you mean the system in general?
> 
> g

This is not just a web cam to talk to grandma.  This is an inexpensive
security type cam that will hook to an existing network, not necessarily
to a pc.  One use could be to see how much coffee is left in the pot in
the break room.  Or maybe to watch the computer room door and video log
visitors. Or, make sure my snooty manhattan neighbors are not climbing
in my windows.

I was just pinging the list to see if anyone has a preference for these
devices.

Michael



-- 
---



From ike  Fri Jan 21 16:10:11 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:10:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me
In-Reply-To: <2ca9ba91050121110450b4b3d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>
	<2ca9ba91050121110450b4b3d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6263CD4-6BF0-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Jeff Knight wrote:

> It is probably wise to avoid the terms "cool script" and "buddy sent
> me" in the subjects of any email. Gmail marked this as spam, even with
> my nycbug filters, and in all honesty, if it wasn't from nycbug (&
> Gmail's display of the first line of the message in its spam list) I
> would have flushed it with extreme predjudice.

*sigh*  But what does one then say when they actually have a cool 
script a buddy sent them? :P

Rocket-
.ike




From dlavigne6  Fri Jan 21 16:43:32 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:43:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Article on PC Mag aout BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.61.0501211537270.22427@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>
References: <41F16382.3000103@ocsny.com>
	<Pine.BSO.4.61.0501211537270.22427@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>
Message-ID: <20050121164228.R4264@dru.domain.org>



On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Rick Aliwalas wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, Mikel King wrote:
>
>> What are the BSDs? And why should you consider using them if you're looking 
>> for a non-Windows operating system? Read today's tip to find out.
>> 
>> For the solution, click below: 
>> http://ct.enews.pcmag.com/rd/cts?d=184-1436-5-55-2011-145253-0-0-0-1
>
> The article is not too recent - 11.27.01.


Brett might be updating the article (which is currently copyrighted by 
Ziff-Davis). I'll let the group know if I hear anything more about it.

Dru



From chsnyder  Fri Jan 21 17:07:00 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:07:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me
In-Reply-To: <D6263CD4-6BF0-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>
	<2ca9ba91050121110450b4b3d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6263CD4-6BF0-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <b7625269050121140771884683@mail.gmail.com>

Isaac Levy wrote:

> *sigh*  But what does one then say when they actually have a cool
> script a buddy sent them? :P

Subject: A-1 superplus rockstar routine for accomplishing wizardry attached

That'd make me look.



From rick  Fri Jan 21 18:20:06 2005
From: rick (Rick Aliwalas)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:20:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <20050121153329.2e3a35b1@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20050121153329.2e3a35b1@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.61.0501211543430.22427@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005, michael wrote:

> Has anyone had any experience with network cameras?  I was looking at
> the d-link or Axis or something like that.

I bought a D-Link DCS-900W which is a wireless (802.11b) cam.  It
also has a 100mb ethernet port on it.  It's pretty slick - runs
a web server so its standalone.  I bought one for my Dad who
uses it under Windows.  My co-worker has (4) DCS-900W's and is
using Zoneminder under Fedora.  Like the windows s/w, it has
motion detection capability so it records motion.  At your
leisure, you can hit a web page on the box running Zoneminder and
it shows "events" it recorded - timestamped of course.  Really slick.
The picture quality is acceptable.  I wonder if Zoneminder will compile
under OpenBSD...

-rick





From tux  Fri Jan 21 20:02:03 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:02:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me
References: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com><2ca9ba91050121110450b4b3d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6263CD4-6BF0-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <001f01c5001d$fc7ed7f0$6400a8c0@olympus>

: *sigh*  But what does one then say when they actually have a cool
: script a buddy sent them? :P

How about "kewlies"?  ..or.. "this r0x!"

Better yet - "thanks" :)

..then again, I'm in a state of severe caffeine deprivation at the moment, so
maybe I really wouldn't say any of those.  *shrug*




From lists  Sat Jan 22 08:26:02 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:26:02 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_net_cam?=
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>


On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:20:06 -0500 (EST)
Rick Aliwalas <rick at cuc.com> wrote:

> 
> I bought a D-Link DCS-900W which is a wireless (802.11b) cam.  It
> also has a 100mb ethernet port on it.  It's pretty slick - runs
> a web server so its standalone.  I bought one for my Dad who
> uses it under Windows.  My co-worker has (4) DCS-900W's and is
> using Zoneminder under Fedora.  Like the windows s/w, it has
> motion detection capability so it records motion.  At your
> leisure, you can hit a web page on the box running Zoneminder and
> it shows "events" it recorded - timestamped of course.  Really slick.
> The picture quality is acceptable.  I wonder if Zoneminder will 
> compile under OpenBSD...
> 
> -rick
> 

rick, that  is what I am talking about.  
Thanks for replying.
Michael


--



From ike  Sat Jan 22 08:37:51 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 08:37:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <CFDB5336-6C7A-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>


On Jan 22, 2005, at 8:26 AM, <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:20:06 -0500 (EST)
> Rick Aliwalas <rick at cuc.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I bought a D-Link DCS-900W which is a wireless (802.11b) cam.  It
>> also has a 100mb ethernet port on it.  It's pretty slick - runs
>> a web server so its standalone.
[snip]
>
> rick, that  is what I am talking about.
> Thanks for replying.
> Michael

Some Good/Bad to note- DLink provides a demo UI for the thing, (since 
it's web based, [got that from Sunny's comment before about D-Link 
routers]), for this camera, it's here:

http://support.dlink.com/emulators/dcs900w/

One thing that I noted though, with this camera, is that some of the 
cooler features IMO are only accessable via windows software,

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=297

"The included Windows-based IPView Lite software provides even more 
features, allowing you to archive streaming video straight to your hard 
drive, monitor up to 4 cameras on a single screen, rotate camera views, 
enable motion detection, and update the firmware on your DCS-900W 
Internet Camera."

Wah.  But it's so cute.  :(

Rocket-
.ike




From marco  Sat Jan 22 11:53:31 2005
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:53:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <CFDB5336-6C7A-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<CFDB5336-6C7A-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050122165331.GB11256@metm.org>

On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 08:37:51AM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote:
>"The included Windows-based IPView Lite software provides even more 
>features, allowing you to archive streaming video straight to your hard 
>drive, monitor up to 4 cameras on a single screen, rotate camera views, 
>enable motion detection, and update the firmware on your DCS-900W 
>Internet Camera."
>
There are are freesoftware projects attempting to do these types of
things notedly motion :

  http://www.lavrsen.dk/twiki/bin/view/Motion/WebHome

- developed for linux but has a freebsd developer 
- can handle these web based cameras 
  (recommends axis cameras: http://www.axis.com ), 
- allows you to record to disk only the images in which motion has occured, 
- can log to a database etc. 
- and can do more funky image analysis type stuff:

  http://www.lavrsen.dk/twiki/bin/view/Motion/MotionExamples

Haven't really used it but played around with it and firewire cameras
last year.

-- 
Marco



From ike  Sat Jan 22 12:06:12 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:06:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <20050122165331.GB11256@metm.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<CFDB5336-6C7A-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050122165331.GB11256@metm.org>
Message-ID: <EAD95018-6C97-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Yo Marco, All,

On Jan 22, 2005, at 11:53 AM, marco at metm.org wrote:

> Haven't really used it but played around with it and firewire cameras
> last year.

Ohhhh-yeah- What were those little things again?  I remember you showed 
them to us at the 1st ever nycbug installfest-?  Cool stuff-

Rocket-
.ike




From marco  Sat Jan 22 13:20:55 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:20:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <EAD95018-6C97-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<CFDB5336-6C7A-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050122165331.GB11256@metm.org>
	<EAD95018-6C97-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050122182054.GC11256@metm.org>

On Sat, Jan 22, 2005 at 12:06:12PM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>>Haven't really used it but played around with it and firewire cameras
>>last year.
>
>Ohhhh-yeah- What were those little things again?  I remember you showed 
>them to us at the 1st ever nycbug installfest-?  Cool stuff-
>
  http://unibrain.com/1394_products/fire-i_board_cam/fire-i_board_camera.htm
  
<beware lots of references to the L word> 

I used the linux ieee1394 drivers ... 
have not checked out firewire with the BSDs at all.
good people at : 

  http://www.tele.ucl.ac.be/PEOPLE/DOUXCHAMPS/ieee1394/coriander/
and 
  http://www.linux1394.org/

<end of references>

-- 
Marco



From ike  Sat Jan 22 13:27:33 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:27:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] net cam
In-Reply-To: <20050122182054.GC11256@metm.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1CsLJ40lN1-0000Pi@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<CFDB5336-6C7A-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050122165331.GB11256@metm.org>
	<EAD95018-6C97-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050122182054.GC11256@metm.org>
Message-ID: <486E004F-6CA3-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>


On Jan 22, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Marco Scoffier wrote:
> <end of references>
>
> -- 
> Marco

Danke man'-
.ike





From steve  Sat Jan 22 22:55:37 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
Message-ID: <006501c500ff$696563c0$c900a8c0@panda>

Hi all

 

In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a setup
that includes php, perl, and ssl. 

 

 

 

Thanx

 

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From ike  Sat Jan 22 23:46:43 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:46:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <006501c500ff$696563c0$c900a8c0@panda>
References: <006501c500ff$696563c0$c900a8c0@panda>
Message-ID: <C78679D3-6CF9-11D9-B0DE-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Steve,

On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:55 PM, steve wrote:

> Hi all
>
> In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> setup that includes php, perl, and ssl.

This topic is hard to give a definitive answer about- it's worth 
discussion, and I'll throw out my experiences with it-

Basically, Apache2 is solid software, but it's initial 
production/stable debut was riddled with a few massive security holes 
that left me (and lots of folks) shaky- sucked hard to go back when I 
was already in the process of updating/migrating all the systems I was 
currently working in...

On the other hand, it *is* the Apache which the Apache foundation is 
sitting on as the 'live' branch, though there is still a lot of ongoing 
work for 1.3.x, insomuch as half the world runs it still...

I'd like to see the world get over and move to 2.x, insomuch as I found 
it to be filled with smart and elegant features- and nicer ways to go 
about many things- (mod_ssl is default module, for example).  In 
addition, on some platforms and under particular loads, the 
multiprocessor (threaded) compile-time modules provide INSANE 
performance if applied in the right context.

On the other hand, 1.3.x, if your doing standard stuff, (like it sounds 
like you are), is still likely the simplest to manage, insomuch as 
there's years of relevant docs and info online for 1.3.x, within nearly 
every tech. culture online.  Hard to move away from what I feel is one 
of the most widely supported Open Source softwares, supported by the 
masses of the world using it.

--
So with that, I guess I didn't really provide any definitive answer, 
but hope this helps you make your decision more sanely...  (Personal 
note, I'm running 1.3.x in all but one production box I administer, and 
that 1 box has special requirements that are met by Apache2's ability 
to re-write incoming headers [for proxy] - here's a somewhat ancient 
article on that particular setup, for the record 
<http://www.zope.org/Members/ike/Apache2_freeBSD>).

Rocket-
.ike




From bob  Sun Jan 23 02:22:09 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:22:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <C78679D3-6CF9-11D9-B0DE-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <006501c500ff$696563c0$c900a8c0@panda>
	<C78679D3-6CF9-11D9-B0DE-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <7E250CC0-6D0F-11D9-90F7-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>


On Jan 22, 2005, at 23:46, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Jan 22, 2005, at 10:55 PM, steve wrote:
>
>> In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
>> setup that includes php, perl, and ssl.
>
> This topic is hard to give a definitive answer about- it's worth 
> discussion, and I'll throw out my experiences with it-
>
> Basically, Apache2 is solid software, but it's initial 
> production/stable debut was riddled with a few massive security holes 
> that left me (and lots of folks) shaky- sucked hard to go back when I 
> was already in the process of updating/migrating all the systems I was 
> currently working in...
>
> On the other hand, it *is* the Apache which the Apache foundation is 
> sitting on as the 'live' branch, though there is still a lot of 
> ongoing work for 1.3.x, insomuch as half the world runs it still...
>
> I'd like to see the world get over and move to 2.x, insomuch as I 
> found it to be filled with smart and elegant features- and nicer ways 
> to go about many things- (mod_ssl is default module, for example).  In 
> addition, on some platforms and under particular loads, the 
> multiprocessor (threaded) compile-time modules provide INSANE 
> performance if applied in the right context.

I think that mod_php had some problems with threading, I'm not sure if 
these are completely resolved or not, but they probably are by now.  
Another thing is that Apache 2 supports WebDAV out of the box, and some 
extensions are only available for Apache 2 (mod_dav_svn for example).

> On the other hand, 1.3.x, if your doing standard stuff, (like it 
> sounds like you are), is still likely the simplest to manage, insomuch 
> as there's years of relevant docs and info online for 1.3.x, within 
> nearly every tech. culture online.  Hard to move away from what I feel 
> is one of the most widely supported Open Source softwares, supported 
> by the masses of the world using it.

In my experience most of administration/configuration stuff is the same 
between 1.3 and 2...  It's not like they went and changed everything, 
most of the changes were internal and matter most to developers of 
Apache extensions.

The only place I use 1.3.x is on my Mac OS X boxes cause it's there by 
default, and they don't serve anything interesting.  Everywhere else I 
use Apache 2 specific extensions or features.

-bob




From lists  Sun Jan 23 08:04:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:04:01 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_apache_stability?=
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>


On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
"steve" <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:

> In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> setup that includes php, perl, and ssl. 

As already stated, people run both for different reasons.  I tried 2 a
while back but had problems with PHP.  I have not re-tried in over a
year, so things may have changed.  1.3 is rock solid and tested, and
has been scrutinized by the security conscience for a long time.   If
it is OpenBSD you will run 1.3.  

There is a NYCBUG article about setting up web services that might be
helpful: http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=82

Steve, this Apache question and the prior phpinfo question may be better
answered by an AMP group... like NYPHP.ORG.  They have active mailing
lists.  Some of the guys are pretty bright, right Hans? <grin>

Michael



From jpb  Sun Jan 23 19:15:06 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:15:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* lists at genoverly.net <lists at genoverly.net> [2005-01-23 08:04]:
> 
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
> "steve" <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> 
> > In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> > setup that includes php, perl, and ssl. 
> 
> As already stated, people run both for different reasons.  I tried 2 a
> while back but had problems with PHP.  I have not re-tried in over a
> year, so things may have changed.  1.3 is rock solid and tested, and
> has been scrutinized by the security conscience for a long time.   If
> it is OpenBSD you will run 1.3.  
> 

More specifically, it's 1.3.29 and frozen there.  See the slashdot
story at http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/06/07/1621254.shtml?tid=2&tid=7
and the OBSD list discussion at 
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-06/0448.html

Bummer...

Best Regards,
Jim B.

(PS- sorry if you get this twice...)




From pete  Sun Jan 23 21:47:04 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 21:47:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 07:15:06PM -0500, Jim Brown wrote:
> * lists at genoverly.net <lists at genoverly.net> [2005-01-23 08:04]:
> > 
> > On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
> > "steve" <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> > > setup that includes php, perl, and ssl. 
> > 
> > As already stated, people run both for different reasons.  I tried 2 a
> > while back but had problems with PHP.  I have not re-tried in over a
> > year, so things may have changed.  1.3 is rock solid and tested, and
> > has been scrutinized by the security conscience for a long time.   If
> > it is OpenBSD you will run 1.3.  
> > 
> 
> More specifically, it's 1.3.29 and frozen there.  See the slashdot
> story at http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/06/07/1621254.shtml?tid=2&tid=7
> and the OBSD list discussion at 
> http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-06/0448.html
> 
> Bummer...
> 

depending on which side of the debate you are on this may be a good thing.  i'm 
personally leaning towards this being a good move by the openbsd team, as i really
do think the new apache lisc. is much less free than the original lisc.  anyway
just my 2bits ;)

-p



~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From tux  Mon Jan 24 00:22:52 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:22:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VeriSign breaks silence on domain hijack
Message-ID: <001901c501d4$c0a831f0$6400a8c0@olympus>

 http://tinyurl.com/7ypdb

In case anyone was following this...






From steve  Mon Jan 24 10:06:54 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:06:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
Message-ID: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>

Hi all,

hope you had a safe commute, and a safe weekend. this weekend i thought 
allot about how to compose this email, and have yet to find a proper way 
to state whats on my mind. so please bear with me, and hear me out.


Last week i posted a question to this group regarding my configuration 
of php. i got a few great responses, and recommendations. i also posted 
  another question this past weekend about the question of stability of 
the apache 2 release, again i got some great responses. but i have some 
issues with this group that i would like to clarify, and that in my 
opinion can make this group better as a world respected tech resource, 
(if thats what we want).


i belong to various mailing lists, including but not limited to postfix, 
rt, apache, sunmanagers, nylug, and of course this one. from a technical 
prospective, sunmanagers is one of the worlds most respected mailing 
lists out there. postfix is pretty much up there too. the reason these 
two lists have such a highly respected view (and not only to me) is 
because they discuss technical issues related to the mailing list. on 
the sunmanagers list, if i were to post a question on how to set up 
apache on freebsd, i would be told that we do not answer such questions 
here, but i will get one and only one such email from the list 
moderator. on the other hand if i were to ask a question regarding 
anything that incorporates solaris Os, or Sun hardware, i would get the 
authorative answer from somebody on that list.

last week somebody on the postfix-users mailing list posted the 
following question
"Hi everybody!!!!!!
I need help to compile postfix under OpenBSD with SASL and MYSQL 
support.  Is anybody can help me???????"

the first answer that came through was as follows

"cd /usr/ports/mail/postfix/stable && env FLAVOR="sasl2 mysql" make 
install clean

That'll install 2.1.5 with MySQL and SASL support."

which is the perfect (in my opinion) answer to the question. nobody 
responded with google for postfix on openbsd, nor with www.openbsd.org. 
the question was a technical one and the answers were the same.


another list i belong to is the nylug, which in my opinion (and i hope i 
do not infuriate anybody here) is more of a meeting place for people 
that like, know about, admin, or otherwise are involved with linux in 
general. it is not a place that i would go to for in-depth technical 
questions, which is a shame, because there are some great minds there.


and now i come to this list. the nycbug general list. on the homepage of 
the nycbug there is not charter of organization, the closest i could 
find to a charter is the following "This is like-minded people getting 
together under a single interest." which to me means that nycbug is a 
group of people that as the nylug group are involved with the bsd 
variants in some way or another, and that this mailing list is more for 
discussions and is very open. which is fine with me (but who cares). and 
when i do try to bring up a technical question the responses are 
negligible, for the php question i think i got 4 responses and one was 
that i should asks the folks over at nyphp group. when i asked the 
apache question i also got 5 responses, yet only two answered my 
question. the other three, one told me to go elsewhere because they 
might better answer my question, the next one told me that openbsd froze 
their apache at 1.3.29 for license reasons. all i wanted was to start a 
discussion that would involve the members of this group, and i was 
looking for personal opinions, you the people of this group are 
technically astute, and most if not all have apache running in some 
form, why cant we just have a technical discussion where we point out 
what worked for us and what we recommend. i can (just as well as you) 
read all about apache on various pages, but the thing that makes this 
field, (meaning unix, bsd, and linux) different is that we share what we 
learned the hard way with one another.


  i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list called 
bsdmanagers, and take the rules that are applied to the other purely 
technical mailing lists, namely only technically bsd related question 
are allowed. and if i ask a question about my php on bsd, i wont get 
told to go to a different group to ask that question. i would like to 
see the nycbug lists become world renowned for technical questions and 
answers for anything that involves the bsd world. and if you dont know 
or dont want ot answer then dont.


for those of you that read this all the way i thank you, and hope that i 
did not piss anybody off. i do not have anything against the nylug, or 
any other group out there. and yes i had a coffee today already, and 
slept pretty well last night, so this is not just a rant, it is a 
thought out and intentional email. i do not know if i have the right to 
do this but i am proposing that the membership votes on whether we can 
create a managers/technical mailing list.



PS. for those of you that want to respond to me please do so, there is 
no reason to rant to the whole list if you take offence to anything i said.

Thank you once again for your time,


Steve Rieger



From nycbug  Mon Jan 24 10:20:00 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:20:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <20050124152000.GB59907@florian.hastek.net>

steve:

> "Hi everybody!!!!!!
> I need help to compile postfix under OpenBSD with SASL and MYSQL 
> support.  Is anybody can help me???????"
> 
> the first answer that came through was as follows
> 
> "cd /usr/ports/mail/postfix/stable && env FLAVOR="sasl2 mysql" make 
> install clean
> 
> That'll install 2.1.5 with MySQL and SASL support."
> 
> which is the perfect (in my opinion) answer to the question. nobody 

That is an incomplete and inadequate answer - anyone can say "make
install reboot and call me in the morning". If you want to see what
good answers look like, visit perlmonks.org.

I never though this list was a technical support list, especially
since it is called "talk" and not "bsd-users" or "BSD-commando".
Besides, those lists exist elsewhere, and freebsd-isp is as
interesting as the Postfix-users list. I always thought this list
was for peripheral/cultural/commerce issues around *BSD, although
the occasional technical queries about specific issues were welcome.










From george  Mon Jan 24 10:32:08 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:32:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <1BDBF97C-6E1D-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:06 AM, steve wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> hope you had a safe commute, and a safe weekend. this weekend i 
> thought allot about how to compose this email, and have yet to find a 
> proper way to state whats on my mind. so please bear with me, and hear 
> me out.

I'm all ears. . .

>
>
> Last week i posted a question to this group regarding my configuration 
> of php. i got a few great responses, and recommendations. i also 
> posted  another question this past weekend about the question of 
> stability of the apache 2 release, again i got some great responses. 
> but i have some issues with this group that i would like to clarify, 
> and that in my opinion can make this group better as a world respected 
> tech resource, (if thats what we want).

Of course we want that. . .

>
>
> i belong to various mailing lists, including but not limited to 
> postfix, rt, apache, sunmanagers, nylug, and of course this one. from 
> a technical prospective, sunmanagers is one of the worlds most 
> respected mailing lists out there. postfix is pretty much up there 
> too. the reason these two lists have such a highly respected view (and 
> not only to me) is because they discuss technical issues related to 
> the mailing list. on the sunmanagers list, if i were to post a 
> question on how to set up apache on freebsd, i would be told that we 
> do not answer such questions here, but i will get one and only one 
> such email from the list moderator. on the other hand if i were to ask 
> a question regarding anything that incorporates solaris Os, or Sun 
> hardware, i would get the authorative answer from somebody on that 
> list.
>
> last week somebody on the postfix-users mailing list posted the 
> following question
> "Hi everybody!!!!!!
> I need help to compile postfix under OpenBSD with SASL and MYSQL 
> support.  Is anybody can help me???????"
>
> the first answer that came through was as follows
>
> "cd /usr/ports/mail/postfix/stable && env FLAVOR="sasl2 mysql" make 
> install clean
>
> That'll install 2.1.5 with MySQL and SASL support."
>
> which is the perfect (in my opinion) answer to the question. nobody 
> responded with google for postfix on openbsd, nor with 
> www.openbsd.org. the question was a technical one and the answers were 
> the same.

I'd tend to agree with you. . . too often "RTFM" implies to me the RTFM 
poster doesn't know the answer.

>
>
> another list i belong to is the nylug, which in my opinion (and i hope 
> i do not infuriate anybody here) is more of a meeting place for people 
> that like, know about, admin, or otherwise are involved with linux in 
> general. it is not a place that i would go to for in-depth technical 
> questions, which is a shame, because there are some great minds there.

I'd agree with you there. . .

>
>
> and now i come to this list. the nycbug general list. on the homepage 
> of the nycbug there is not charter of organization, the closest i 
> could find to a charter is the following "This is like-minded people 
> getting together under a single interest." which to me means that 
> nycbug is a group of people that as the nylug group are involved with 
> the bsd variants in some way or another, and that this mailing list is 
> more for discussions and is

In the broadest sense, this is true.

> very open. which is fine with me (but who cares). and when i do try to 
> bring up a technical question the responses are negligible, for the 
> php question i think i got 4 responses and one was that i should asks 
> the folks over at nyphp group. when i asked the apache question i also 
> got 5 responses, yet only two answered my question. the other three, 
> one told me to go elsewhere because they might better answer my 
> question, the next one told me that openbsd froze their apache at 
> 1.3.29 for license reasons. all i wanted was to start a discussion 
> that would involve the members of this group, and i was looking for 
> personal opinions, you the people of this group are technically 
> astute, and most if not all have apache running in some form, why cant 
> we just have a technical discussion where we point out what worked for 
> us and what we recommend. i can (just as well as you) read all about 
> apache on various pages, but the thing that makes this field, (meaning 
> unix, bsd, and linux) different is that we share what we learned the 
> hard way with one another.

It's often the question that is more important than the answer.  I 
thought the answers provided to your question were appropriate.  It 
sounds like you were really asking for something else.  When people 
were directing you to New York PHP, I think it has more to do with the 
heavier expertise there, as they are the group we are most intertwined 
with.  It's not a blow-off response.  They are a serious group, and if 
we all encouraged cross-posting, I'm sure a lot of posts would be on 
both lists.  Hans, Jeff, Chris S., MW. . . there's many in both places.

The NYCBUG talk list tends to fluctuate in traffic and quality of 
answers.  We have had brilliant and insightful discussions, we have 
also had lackluster ones.  But such is the reality of a mailing list.  
I am also aware that many of us (including me), are incredibly busy 
right now, working seven days a week with time only to browse the list 
for things directly relevant to me at the moment.  For many of us 
independents, this is common in January, September. . . unlike, say, 
August.

>
>
>  i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list called 
> bsdmanagers, and take the rules that are applied to the other purely 
> technical mailing lists, namely only technically bsd related question 
> are allowed. and if

I'd argue strongly against another mailing list.  We don't have the 
traffic at this point to create a separate technical mailing list.  You 
can solve the question of weak responses on certain questions with a 
new mailing list.

> i ask a question about my php on bsd, i wont get told to go to a 
> different group to ask that question. i would like to see the nycbug 
> lists become world renowned for technical questions and answers for 
> anything that involves the bsd world. and if you dont know or dont 
> want ot answer then dont.

BTW, if you notice New York PHP is an AMP group, not LAMP, since most 
prefer BSD.  I don't think anyone is against increasing the technical 
weight of the talk list.  But there's no simple organizational solution 
IMO.

>
>
> for those of you that read this all the way i thank you, and hope that 
> i did not piss anybody off. i do not have anything against the nylug, 
> or any other group out there. and yes i had a coffee today already, 
> and slept pretty well last night, so this is not just a rant, it is a 
> thought out and intentional email. i do not know if i have the right 
> to do this but i am proposing that the membership votes on whether we 
> can create a managers/technical mailing list.

I don't think you pissed anyone off.  But I think I've made clear the 
case against another mailing list.

>
>
>
> PS. for those of you that want to respond to me please do so, there is 
> no reason to rant to the whole list if you take offence to anything i 
> said.

This should be a general talk discussion.  But there are no quick fixes 
to this like creating another list.

>
> Thank you once again for your time,
>
>
> Steve Rieger

g




From george  Mon Jan 24 10:38:58 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:38:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <20050124152000.GB59907@florian.hastek.net>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<20050124152000.GB59907@florian.hastek.net>
Message-ID: <105FACB0-6E1E-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:20 AM, a nice bug wrote:

> steve:
>
>> "Hi everybody!!!!!!
>> I need help to compile postfix under OpenBSD with SASL and MYSQL
>> support.  Is anybody can help me???????"
>>
>> the first answer that came through was as follows
>>
>> "cd /usr/ports/mail/postfix/stable && env FLAVOR="sasl2 mysql" make
>> install clean
>>
>> That'll install 2.1.5 with MySQL and SASL support."
>>
>> which is the perfect (in my opinion) answer to the question. nobody
>
> That is an incomplete and inadequate answer - anyone can say "make
> install reboot and call me in the morning". If you want to see what
> good answers look like, visit perlmonks.org.
>

There's no need to segregate answers between the different compartments 
of the internet.

> I never though this list was a technical support list, especially
> since it is called "talk" and not "bsd-users" or "BSD-commando".
> Besides, those lists exist elsewhere, and freebsd-isp is as
> interesting as the Postfix-users list. I always thought this list
> was for peripheral/cultural/commerce issues around *BSD, although
> the occasional technical queries about specific issues were welcome.
>
talk can and has functioned as a technical support/discussion list.

There are higher quality BSD lists, like FBSD-hackers for instance.

This is a talk list, which can mean whatever you want it to mean, and 
that means whatever the subscribers make it.

Personally, I would love to see this list be more like those heavier 
lists. I also know that many people on this list are actively involved 
in other lists.  We have the "weight" on this list to be heavier, as 
there are a number of committers, developers, big time sysadmins, etc., 
but this is a voluntary list that is newer than the other heavier duty 
ones.

There's really no way to force lists to be one thing or another, but we 
can provide some direction.  I don't think the "peripheral/etc" 
comments should be muted. . .  I mean, is there a better place to ask 
for the cheapest cat 5e cable in midtown?

g




From bob  Mon Jan 24 10:53:14 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:53:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <0E8689F8-6E20-11D9-8A29-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>

On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:06, steve wrote:

> and now i come to this list. the nycbug general list. on the homepage 
> of the nycbug there is not charter of organization, the closest i 
> could find to a charter is the following "This is like-minded people 
> getting together under a single interest." which to me means that 
> nycbug is a group of people that as the nylug group are involved with 
> the bsd variants in some way or another, and that this mailing list is 
> more for discussions and is very open. which is fine with me (but who 
> cares). and when i do try to bring up a technical question the 
> responses are negligible, for the php question i think i got 4 
> responses and one was that i should asks the folks over at nyphp 
> group. when i asked the apache question i also got 5 responses, yet 
> only two answered my question. the other three, one told me to go 
> elsewhere because they might better answer my question, the next one 
> told me that openbsd froze their apache at 1.3.29 for license reasons. 
> all i wanted was to start a discussion that would involve the members 
> of this group, and i was looking for personal opinions, you the people 
> of this group are technically astute, and most if not all have apache 
> running in some form, why cant we just have a technical discussion 
> where we point out what worked for us and what we recommend. i can 
> (just as well as you) read all about apache on various pages, but the 
> thing that makes this field, (meaning unix, bsd, and linux) different 
> is that we share what we learned the hard way with one another.

In general, seriously presented specific questions solicit serious 
answers.  For example, the questions you reference have extremely poor 
Subject headers, and the questions themselves have been vague and are 
rife with grammatical errors.  If you don't put a sufficient amount of 
effort into phrasing a question, how can you expect someone to put a 
decent amount of effort into a response?  From looking over those 
threads, it seems that the responses you received are more than 
deserving of the questions asked :)

>  i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list called 
> bsdmanagers, and take the rules that are applied to the other purely 
> technical mailing lists, namely only technically bsd related question 
> are allowed. and if i ask a question about my php on bsd, i wont get 
> told to go to a different group to ask that question. i would like to 
> see the nycbug lists become world renowned for technical questions and 
> answers for anything that involves the bsd world. and if you dont know 
> or dont want ot answer then dont.

As has been said already, it is silly to split this list in two with 
only a handful of posts a day, most of which wouldn't end up on said 
new list.  It would be stillborn.

-bob




From jbaltz  Mon Jan 24 11:30:07 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:30:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] tis a cool script that a buddy sent me
In-Reply-To: <b7625269050121140771884683@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41F12D67.3080704@n2sw.com>	<2ca9ba91050121110450b4b3d4@mail.gmail.com>	<D6263CD4-6BF0-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<b7625269050121140771884683@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41F5228F.5020109@omnipod.com>

On 1/21/2005 5:07 PM, csnyder wrote:
> Isaac Levy wrote:
>>*sigh*  But what does one then say when they actually have a cool
>>script a buddy sent them? :P
> Subject: A-1 superplus rockstar routine for accomplishing wizardry attached

Better yet: "You are not expected to understand this."

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at omnipod.com    +1 646 230 8750
Thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.




From sunny-ml  Mon Jan 24 12:26:45 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:26:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <200501241226.45980.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Monday 24 January 2005 10:06, steve wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> hope you had a safe commute

almost 8 hours through the snow-storm saturday nite ...

> another list i belong to is the nylug, which in my opinion (and i hope i
> do not infuriate anybody here) is more of a meeting place for people
> that like, know about, admin, or otherwise are involved with linux in
> general. it is not a place that i would go to for in-depth technical
> questions, which is a shame, because there are some great minds there.
>

No offense as been taken

[...]

> when i do try to bring up a technical question the responses are
> negligible, for the php question i think i got 4 responses and one was
> that i should asks the folks over at nyphp group. when i asked the
> apache question i also got 5 responses, yet only two answered my
> question. the other three, one told me to go elsewhere because they
> might better answer my question, the next one told me that openbsd froze
> their apache at 1.3.29 for license reasons. all i wanted was to start a
> discussion that would involve the members of this group, and i was
> looking for personal opinions, you the people of this group are
> technically astute, and most if not all have apache running in some
> form, why cant we just have a technical discussion where we point out
> what worked for us and what we recommend. i can (just as well as you)
> read all about apache on various pages, but the thing that makes this
> field, (meaning unix, bsd, and linux) different is that we share what we
> learned the hard way with one another.
>

I think it is somewhat important to realize what a " * User Group" is.  These 
groups are essentially pot-luck dinners.  A few people take their time to 
organize and hold the dinner, and everyone else just brings what they're good 
at to the table.

That being said you aren't going to find a whole lot of concentration on a 
particularly specific subject at any given time.  IE:  I've compiled PHP many 
different times, and the only thing I know about it is that the more options 
I enable, the more difficult my upgrade strategy might be.  Clearly I'm not 
qualified to talk about PHP compilation arguments so the most I could do is 
point you to a group of people that do know and are willing to answer 
questions for you.

However, if you asked a question about DS3 cards, then you just got lucky 
because folks like Alex may take the time to answer such a question

With any near-"general purpose" user group, it becomes hit or miss

>   i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list called
> bsdmanagers, and take the rules that are applied to the other purely
> technical mailing lists, namely only technically bsd related question
> are allowed. and if i ask a question about my php on bsd, i wont get
> told to go to a different group to ask that question. i would like to
> see the nycbug lists become world renowned for technical questions and
> answers for anything that involves the bsd world. and if you dont know
> or dont want ot answer then dont.

the problem with such a list is that there are people who will use such a list 
as free tech-support/consulting.  The leechers will come en masse.  And 
somehow, you need to give motivation to those who answer questions.

Sunny Dubey

PS:  I looked at the January archive of the Sun Managers list, and I wasn't 
entirely impressed.  I saw lots of questions and even fewer responses.



From ike  Mon Jan 24 12:30:46 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:30:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Steve, All,

On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:06 AM, steve wrote:

>  i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list called  
> bsdmanagers,

Steve, I appreciate your sentiment, and insomuch as I agree with the  
others that a seperate nycbug-bsd-managers list would fragment things,  
I do want to hone in on what your thinking about here-

If I'm getting this right, it sounds like there's a level of  
communication/support on (especially) the sunmanagers list that you'd  
like to see happen somewhere with the *BSD's?  Have you not found this  
yet on other various BSD tech lists?

--
I don't mean to give a RTFM-type response here Steve, (especially  
because I know you know your stuff and know these resources all too  
well), but for the public record here, I'd hope that something similar  
to sunmanagers could be found in these various BSD resources(?):

FreeBSD Mailing Lists:
http://tinyurl.com/623qw
--or--
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ 
eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL

OpenBSD Mailing Lists:
http://openbsd.org/mail.html

NetBSD Mailing Lists:
http://netbsd.org/MailingLists/

(sorry not all BSD's listed, but these BSD's definitely have masses of  
folks running these BSD's in heavy production)


On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:38 AM, G. Rosamond wrote:

> I mean, is there a better place to ask for the cheapest cat 5e cable  
> in midtown?

Gman-that statement is key.
To me, NYC*BUG is much more about connecting like-minded folks locally,  
in, (but not restricted to) NYC.    I personally pay attention to a  
boatload of other much more tech-centric mailing lists, and for me,  
NYC*BUG is a breath of fresh air- because it can do trivial stuff-  
which in the end, can be important stuff.

With regard to the more technical-heavy threads on the list, I have to  
say, I've lurked on threads for topics here where I'd NEVER have time  
to actually sign up to a list and get more involved in that  
community/technology.  It's the shotgun learning I like here.

There was some discussion a while back from some published comments Rob  
Pike made about Bell Labs, the Unix Room, where the coffee machine was-  
and how that's where the really interesting work got done etc...  I  
kindof taste that coffee on this list, and love the fact that it's a  
list where I have a MUCH better chance of seeing a posters face  
eventually... :)

Rockin' in with my .02?
.ike




From mspitzer  Mon Jan 24 12:35:53 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:35:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <200501241226.45980.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<200501241226.45980.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501240935318f2a3@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:26:45 -0500, Sunny Dubey <sunny-ml at opencurve.org> wrote:
> 
> PS:  I looked at the January archive of the Sun Managers list, and I wasn't
> entirely impressed.  I saw lots of questions and even fewer responses.

because that is not how sun net managers works, the process is:

1: post a question
2: recieve answers in private mail
3: post a summery to the list of the answers you recieved and how they
worked out.

many people are not doing #3 and this has nothing to do with the quality of #2.

marc



From steve  Mon Jan 24 12:36:36 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:36:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <41F53224.6020501@n2sw.com>

Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hi Steve, All,
> 
> On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:06 AM, steve wrote:
> 
>>  i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list 
>> called  bsdmanagers,
> 
> 
> Steve, I appreciate your sentiment, and insomuch as I agree with the  
> others that a seperate nycbug-bsd-managers list would fragment things,  
> I do want to hone in on what your thinking about here-
> 
> If I'm getting this right, it sounds like there's a level of  
> communication/support on (especially) the sunmanagers list that you'd  
> like to see happen somewhere with the *BSD's?  Have you not found this  
> yet on other various BSD tech lists?
> 
> 
> Rockin' in with my .02?
> .ike
> 
> 
> 

thats all i was trying to say, and if i may clarify one thing here,

the sunmanagers group works in a different format than most lists. i ask 
a question and whoever decides to answer send the response directly to 
me not to the list. once i get my issue resolved satisfactorily, i 
repost the question and up to two possible solutions to the group with 
the word SUMARRY in the subject line.

again the point i was trying to make is that i believe that the nycbug 
users can become a world class destinations for a bsd tech lists, am not 
in any way trying to bash the current users group









From sunny-ml  Mon Jan 24 12:42:06 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:42:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501240935318f2a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<200501241226.45980.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<8c50a3c30501240935318f2a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200501241242.06308.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Monday 24 January 2005 12:35, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> because that is not how sun net managers works, the process is:
>
> 1: post a question
> 2: recieve answers in private mail
> 3: post a summery to the list of the answers you recieved and how they
> worked out.
>
> many people are not doing #3 and this has nothing to do with the quality of
> #2.

interesting

thanks for the tip

(and to those who responded off-line)

Sunny Dubey



From pete  Mon Jan 24 12:43:22 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:43:22 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] VeriSign breaks silence on domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <001901c501d4$c0a831f0$6400a8c0@olympus>
References: <001901c501d4$c0a831f0$6400a8c0@olympus>
Message-ID: <71286D8F-6E2F-11D9-8233-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 23, 2005, at 9:22 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:

>  http://tinyurl.com/7ypdb
>
> In case anyone was following this...
>
>

i just read that article and am a little confused, aside from the fact 
that somehow verigsign OK'd this transfer.  This quote is quite 
interesting:

"The registrars were able to reverse the situation within 24 hours of 
notification. In the meantime, VeriSign worked as a conduit to assist 
the registrars. The name has been restored to the registrant of record 
and the name servers have been restored."

And I though this whole issue was made worse b/c it tool well over 24 
hours to get the gears moving at MIT (no weekend NOC support etc..).  
and finally isn't PANIX registered by Godaddy or something like that?  
The plot thickens :)

-pete


~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From ike  Mon Jan 24 12:44:31 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:44:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F53224.6020501@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<41F53224.6020501@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <9A53ECFC-6E2F-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 24, 2005, at 12:36 PM, steve wrote:

> again the point i was trying to make is that i believe that the nycbug 
> users can become a world class destinations for a bsd tech lists, am 
> not in any way trying to bash the current users group

Point taken- and echoed- there are loads of people doing insanely great 
stuff around nycbug.  This ain't Otawalla TX yo.  (not to say there 
isn't great stuff in Otawalla, but hey- we have density on our side).  
But, we always have 'busy' working against us all...

Rocket-
.ike




From mspitzer  Mon Jan 24 12:50:25 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:50:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050124095029c55203@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:30:46 -0500, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> Hi Steve, All,
> 
> 
> If I'm getting this right, it sounds like there's a level of
> communication/support on (especially) the sunmanagers list that you'd
> like to see happen somewhere with the *BSD's?  Have you not found this
> yet on other various BSD tech lists?
> 

one other thing here the bsds are different enough that a general
heavy technical list would be a bit of a mess at best, for example:

user: I need to add some accounts, about 200 in bulk
expert: use the pw command and a small shell/awk script to set it up
user: whats pw?
expert: man pw
user: its not there
expert: what OS are you running
user: bsd
expert: what kind of bsd
user: oh there are different, cd says openbsd
expert: you are right pw is not in openbsd, you really should use
freebsd for this stuff
user: you think so?
expert2: openbsd is great and freebsd is lacking X,Y,Z use useradd( or
is it adduser i forget(this is me not expert2))
...

this will happen unless we had a moderator, and I would feel sorry for
whoever took the job.

marc



From pete  Mon Jan 24 12:52:21 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:52:21 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues,  and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <B2AF866C-6E30-11D9-8233-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 24, 2005, at 7:06 AM, steve wrote:

> Hi all,
>
<snip>
> last week somebody on the postfix-users mailing list posted the 
> following question
> "Hi everybody!!!!!!
> I need help to compile postfix under OpenBSD with SASL and MYSQL 
> support.  Is anybody can help me???????"
>
> the first answer that came through was as follows
>
> "cd /usr/ports/mail/postfix/stable && env FLAVOR="sasl2 mysql" make 
> install clean
>
> That'll install 2.1.5 with MySQL and SASL support."
>
> which is the perfect (in my opinion) answer to the question. nobody 
> responded with google for postfix on openbsd, nor with 
> www.openbsd.org. the question was a technical one and the answers were 
> the same.
>

Personally I think that's actually the worst solution you can give to 
someone who is obviously starting out with *any* OS.  Now sometimes 
responses can be harsh "RTFM!" but just telling people to blindly 
execute commnads w/o pushing them to solve problems themselves is not 
good.  Esp. with OBSD.  One of the things that set's BSd apart from 
most other OS's is the ease with which one is able to solve a problem 
on their own, meaning the documentation is Top Notch and well organized 
%95 of the time.

>
<snip>

> when i asked the apache question i also got 5 responses, yet only two 
> answered my question. the other three, one told me to go elsewhere 
> because they might better answer my question, the next one told me 
> that openbsd froze their apache at 1.3.29 for license reasons. all i 
> wanted was to start a discussion that would involve the members of 
> this group, and i was looking for personal opinions, you the people of 
> this group are technically astute, and most if not all have apache 
> running in some form, why cant we just have a technical discussion 
> where we point out what worked for us and what we recommend. i can 
> (just as well as you) read all about apache on various pages, but the 
> thing that makes this field, (meaning unix, bsd, and linux) different 
> is that we share what we learned the hard way with one another.
>

I thought the reply's were pretty spot on, honestly it would probably 
not be a good thing to come out and say "Yes use apache 2" with out 
knowing your specific environment you are going to be working in.  Heck 
michael even pointed you a page he wrote up to assist people with 
setting up apache.  I also think the licensing issue is very important, 
esp. in regards to free software.  because the code is ours we should 
be concerned when a change is made and talk about it.


-p


~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From ike  Mon Jan 24 12:53:24 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:53:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050124095029c55203@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com>
	<AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<8c50a3c3050124095029c55203@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D80817CC-6E30-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 24, 2005, at 12:50 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> this will happen unless we had a moderator, and I would feel sorry for
> whoever took the job.

How well would said job pay? :)

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Mon Jan 24 13:17:36 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:17:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stack size in FreeBSD / Zope
Message-ID: <394889EA-6E34-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

I need to learn a bit more basic stuff about stack sizes when compiling  
software on FreeBSD- I'm looking for any resources online, insomuch as  
any of my googling comes up with stack-smashing techniques, (ProPolice  
and the like), not what I'm looking for.  I've not found what I'm  
looking for in the FreeBSD handbook, and not sure where to dig next.

Thanks for any comments/urls, Rocket-
.ike




Why (if anyone is interested further in what I'm up to):
--
I'm fixin' to attempt to track down and permanently resolve a  
longstanding bug in Plone/CMF, (a software which is built on top of  
Zope).  My clients and community projects I'm around use this app hard.  
  In a nutshell:

1) Python builds and runs great on every system I've ever touched

2) Zope builds and runs fine stock on FreeBSD; Zope runs a restricted  
Python interperter for various reasons (context, web applications and  
web server- security and performance).

3) Somewhere in the restricted interperter, something is wrong where  
Zope needs more than the 64K stack on FreeBSD, so Plone especailly, (an  
app of mosterous scale in it's own right), crashes Zope.  The FreeBSD  
port of Zope builds a python which fixes this issue, but I'm just not  
comfortable with that any more.

Some very old dead-end, but spot-on, mail on the topic, which has  
become the 'fix' for Plone on FreeBSD (duct-tape, if you ask me, but  
it's worked for years):
http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2002-January/014718.html

Also, a Plone.org collector issue:
http://plone.org/collector/3199/ISSUE_TRANSCRIPT/view? 
searchterm=WANT_HUGE_STACK_SIZE

4) Much of the Zope commmunity is Linux based, so this FreeBSD bug gets  
no attention- (a few years this bug has stood!), as it's not an issue  
on Linux - so I'm interested in anything folks can say about stack  
sizes in Linux?
--




From tux  Mon Jan 24 13:58:49 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:58:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
References: <41F50F0E.8010005@n2sw.com><AE7EC9C6-6E2D-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org><8c50a3c3050124095029c55203@mail.gmail.com>
	<D80817CC-6E30-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <005501c50246$c125bf90$8002000a@geekiskahn.net>

: How well would said job pay? :)

..enough to keep your pockets filled with lint  :)


--
 PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
 saved in a permanent database.



From steve  Mon Jan 24 14:28:23 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:28:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
Message-ID: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>

hi all,

who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to 
start with



please respond off list

thanx



From ike  Mon Jan 24 14:33:52 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:33:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:28 PM, steve wrote:

> who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to 
> start with
>
>
>
> please respond off list

Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!

Rocket-
.ike





From mspitzer  Mon Jan 24 14:45:14 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:45:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305012411456e1f3644@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:33:52 -0500, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:28 PM, steve wrote:
> 
> > who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to
> > start with
> >
> >
> >
> > please respond off list
> 
> Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!

This would be good to have up on the website, it is a faqish local bsd
type of thing.

marc



From tux  Mon Jan 24 14:58:30 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:58:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c5024f$165d91b0$8002000a@geekiskahn.net>

: who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to
: start with

There's a few, but I'd highly recommend GeekISP.com, who's hosting my
business domain.  Service is the best I've ever dealt with, and Dave knows
his stuff.  Responses to questions or problems are typically measured in
minutes.  I can't say enough good things about my personal experiences with
them, and considering they host my business website/mail, that's saying
something...

-Kev



--
 PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been
 saved in a permanent database.



From george  Mon Jan 24 17:34:58 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:34:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305012411456e1f3644@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<8c50a3c305012411456e1f3644@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2D757F56-6E58-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:33:52 -0500, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:28 PM, steve wrote:
>>
>>> who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to
>>> start with
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> please respond off list
>>
>> Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!
>
> This would be good to have up on the website, it is a faqish local bsd
> type of thing.
>

Excellent idea Marc. . . MW: we should investigate. . .

There are a number of BSD-using vendors on or around this list who 
should be listed .  .

GeekISP, Loftmail/BizIntegrators, NY Internet. . . then Pilosoft the 
Linux one with heavy-duy Alex. . .

There are others, but I can't remember off the top of my head . . .

At some point, I would also like to see free jails or shared virtual 
hosting provided free to NYC*BUG members by somebody. . . either the 
firm donates and manages for us, or we have a box they host for us, and 
we run the box, provide jails, etc. . .

MS: other services to include. . .?  EMail/WWW hosting, ISP, etc. . .

Criteria to get on the list. . ? Free/Open Source or BSD-only?

This is a use for the BSD Tracker app that we really haven't pushed 
enough. . .

g





From george  Mon Jan 24 18:29:47 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:29:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <005501c50246$c125bf90$8002000a@geekiskahn.net>
References: <D80817CC-6E30-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<005501c50246$c125bf90$8002000a@geekiskahn.net>
Message-ID: <20050124232947.GD1273@run>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 01:58:49PM -0500, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>: How well would said job pay? :)
>
>..enough to keep your pockets filled with lint  :)
>

What's a moderator?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Mon Jan 24 18:31:38 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:31:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.
In-Reply-To: <20050124232947.GD1273@run>
References: <D80817CC-6E30-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<005501c50246$c125bf90$8002000a@geekiskahn.net>
	<20050124232947.GD1273@run>
Message-ID: <17ECDC7C-6E60-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 24, 2005, at 6:29 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 01:58:49PM -0500, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>> : How well would said job pay? :)
>>
>> ..enough to keep your pockets filled with lint  :)
>>
>
> What's a moderator?
>

what's lint. . . you mean LINT?

this list is case-sensitive. . .

g




From matt  Mon Jan 24 20:25:31 2005
From: matt (Matthew Terenzio)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:25:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] first install - FreeBSD5.3
Message-ID: <00A4BBED-6E70-11D9-A647-0003938BDF32@jobsforge.com>

Well, I installed FreeBSD  5.3 . This was my first BSD install.
In general, it was painless.

Wasn't too familiar with inetd.conf. I just uncommented ssh.

Didn't understand, at first why I couldn't authenticate as root.
Created a new user and ssh'd from my mac into the FreeBSD box.
Got in.
Then I tried to su - . . . Sorry

So I start my journey. . .

So far, though, I'm liking it. Perhaps a convert was born today. Or 
should I say bourne again?

Hmmm




From george  Mon Jan 24 20:36:55 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:36:55 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] first install - FreeBSD5.3
In-Reply-To: <00A4BBED-6E70-11D9-A647-0003938BDF32@jobsforge.com>
References: <00A4BBED-6E70-11D9-A647-0003938BDF32@jobsforge.com>
Message-ID: <98E786D2-6E71-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 24, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Matthew Terenzio wrote:

> Well, I installed FreeBSD  5.3 . This was my first BSD install.
> In general, it was painless.

Good to hear. . . What is your technical background, if you don't mind 
me asking?

>
> Wasn't too familiar with inetd.conf. I just uncommented ssh.

ssh is enabled by default, and it's not through /etc/inetd.conf

Check out /etc/rc.conf and /etc/ssh/sshd_config

>
> Didn't understand, at first why I couldn't authenticate as root

By default connecting to a BSD box with root over ssh is disabled. . . 
for obvious reasons.

Again, see /etc/ssh/sshd_config.

This is good particularly in light of the increase in brute force 
attacks tools that have been born over the past year.

Are there OSs that enable root ssh access by default (oh, horrors).

> .
> Created a new user and ssh'd from my mac into the FreeBSD box.
> Got in.
> Then I tried to su - . . . Sorry

Yup . . . or install /usr/ports/security/sudo

>
> So I start my journey. . .
>
> So far, though, I'm liking it. Perhaps a convert was born today. Or 
> should I say bourne again?
>
> Hmmm
>

Enjoy. . . .

Keep the FreeBSD Handbook close at hand . . . trust the BSD documents 
including the manual pages, they are so good that it's difficult to 
sell BSD books and make money.

g




From lists  Mon Jan 24 20:52:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:52:01 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_first_install_-_FreeBSD5=2E3?=
Message-ID: <0MKyxe-1CtFu61beJ-0007x1@mrelay.perfora.net>


On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:36:55 -0500
"G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:

> > Then I tried to su - . . . Sorry

put yourself in wheel group



From jpb  Mon Jan 24 22:08:20 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:08:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> [2005-01-23 21:51]:
> On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 07:15:06PM -0500, Jim Brown wrote:
> > * lists at genoverly.net <lists at genoverly.net> [2005-01-23 08:04]:
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
> > > "steve" <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> > > > setup that includes php, perl, and ssl. 
> > > 
> > > As already stated, people run both for different reasons.  I tried 2 a
> > > while back but had problems with PHP.  I have not re-tried in over a
> > > year, so things may have changed.  1.3 is rock solid and tested, and
> > > has been scrutinized by the security conscience for a long time.   If
> > > it is OpenBSD you will run 1.3.  
> > > 
> > 
> > More specifically, it's 1.3.29 and frozen there.  See the slashdot
> > story at http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/06/07/1621254.shtml?tid=2&tid=7
> > and the OBSD list discussion at 
> > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-06/0448.html
> > 
> > Bummer...
> > 
> 
> depending on which side of the debate you are on this may be a good thing.  i'm 
> personally leaning towards this being a good move by the openbsd team, as i really
> do think the new apache lisc. is much less free than the original lisc.  anyway
> just my 2bits ;)
> 
> -p
> 

I applaud OpenBSD for taking a stance on free licenses, yes.   But I'm
disappointed as I watch them get further and further away from production
releases the rest of the world is using.  

There is really no good choice here.  OBSD certainly can't spend scarce
resources to keep Apache (and other good software) up to date in their
own sources.  But the rest of the world moves on.  Soon, those
versions will be *way* out of date, and won't work with other software.
What then?

I'm feeling this pain right now.  I want to put up a web site on OBSD.
What server should I use?  Apache 1.3.29?  1.3.31?  thttpd?
(Note, I run thttpd elsewhere and I do like it.)

No clear answers I'm afraid.  What I'm really concerned about is that this
will start to come up over and over again.

Jim B.




From pete  Mon Jan 24 22:19:12 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:19:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20050125031912.GA46876@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 10:08:20PM -0500, Jim Brown wrote:
> * Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> [2005-01-23 21:51]:
> > On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 07:15:06PM -0500, Jim Brown wrote:
> > > * lists at genoverly.net <lists at genoverly.net> [2005-01-23 08:04]:
> > > > 
> > > > On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
> > > > "steve" <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> > > > > setup that includes php, perl, and ssl. 
> > > > 
> > > > As already stated, people run both for different reasons.  I tried 2 a
> > > > while back but had problems with PHP.  I have not re-tried in over a
> > > > year, so things may have changed.  1.3 is rock solid and tested, and
> > > > has been scrutinized by the security conscience for a long time.   If
> > > > it is OpenBSD you will run 1.3.  
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > More specifically, it's 1.3.29 and frozen there.  See the slashdot
> > > story at http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/06/07/1621254.shtml?tid=2&tid=7
> > > and the OBSD list discussion at 
> > > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-06/0448.html
> > > 
> > > Bummer...
> > > 
> > 
> > depending on which side of the debate you are on this may be a good thing.  i'm 
> > personally leaning towards this being a good move by the openbsd team, as i really
> > do think the new apache lisc. is much less free than the original lisc.  anyway
> > just my 2bits ;)
> > 
> > -p
> > 
> 
> I applaud OpenBSD for taking a stance on free licenses, yes.   But I'm
> disappointed as I watch them get further and further away from production
> releases the rest of the world is using.  
> 
> There is really no good choice here.  OBSD certainly can't spend scarce
> resources to keep Apache (and other good software) up to date in their
> own sources.  But the rest of the world moves on.  Soon, those
> versions will be *way* out of date, and won't work with other software.
> What then?
> 
> I'm feeling this pain right now.  I want to put up a web site on OBSD.
> What server should I use?  Apache 1.3.29?  1.3.31?  thttpd?
> (Note, I run thttpd elsewhere and I do like it.)
> 
> No clear answers I'm afraid.  What I'm really concerned about is that this
> will start to come up over and over again.
> 

well as I understand the issue b/w Apache and the OBSD folks is that not only
are there incompatible issues with the license but it seems that there were
some patches that the OBSD folks were trying to push into the main Apache
tree that were not being accepted by the apache devs.


so...i think for the time being there is no harm in running obsd's offical
apache release (bug fixes are still being applied) and I don't think any major
new functionality should be making it's way into the 1.3 branch anyway so 
most people should be OK.  frankly I'm not even %100 convinced that the changes
in apache 2.x would benefit most people running OBSD...although i could totally
be wrong on that one....

-p



-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From nycbug  Mon Jan 24 22:40:45 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:40:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: apache stability
In-Reply-To: <20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20050125034045.GA62444@florian.hastek.net>

Jim Brown:
> * Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> [2005-01-23 21:51]:
> > On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 07:15:06PM -0500, Jim Brown wrote:
> > > * lists at genoverly.net <lists at genoverly.net> [2005-01-23 08:04]:
> > > > 
> > > > On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:55:37 -0500
> > > > "steve" <steve at n2sw.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > In your opinion is apache2 ready for production use, am looking at a 
> > > > > setup that includes php, perl, and ssl. 
> > > > 
> > > > As already stated, people run both for different reasons.  I tried 2 a
> > > > while back but had problems with PHP.  I have not re-tried in over a
> > > > year, so things may have changed.  1.3 is rock solid and tested, and
> > > > has been scrutinized by the security conscience for a long time.   If
> > > > it is OpenBSD you will run 1.3.  
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > More specifically, it's 1.3.29 and frozen there.  See the slashdot
> > > story at http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/06/07/1621254.shtml?tid=2&tid=7
> > > and the OBSD list discussion at 
> > > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2004-06/0448.html
> > > 
> > > Bummer...
> > > 
> > 
> > depending on which side of the debate you are on this may be a good thing.  i'm 
> > personally leaning towards this being a good move by the openbsd team, as i really
> > do think the new apache lisc. is much less free than the original lisc.  anyway
> > just my 2bits ;)
> > 
> > -p
> > 
> 
> I applaud OpenBSD for taking a stance on free licenses, yes.   But I'm
> disappointed as I watch them get further and further away from production
> releases the rest of the world is using.  
> 
> There is really no good choice here.  OBSD certainly can't spend scarce
> resources to keep Apache (and other good software) up to date in their
> own sources.  But the rest of the world moves on.  Soon, those
> versions will be *way* out of date, and won't work with other software.
> What then?
> 
> I'm feeling this pain right now.  I want to put up a web site on OBSD.
> What server should I use?  Apache 1.3.29?  1.3.31?  thttpd?

1.3.33 :) 
 
All of these problems are eliminated if you were to build your
Apache application platform from source code. 
 
It's a little more work, resulting in a lot more control. For an
application as critical (and as modular) as Apache, why be tied to a
ports tree that brings with it G-- knows what political baggage and
dependency limitations? Wouldn't you want full control of your
complex build of Apache/PHP or mod_perl, or _________? As it
appears, a coreteam/ports tree maintenance decision can put an end
to my platform upgrade path essentially overnight.






From o_sleep  Mon Jan 24 23:19:29 2005
From: o_sleep (O_Sleep)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:19:29 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: apache stability
In-Reply-To: <20050125034045.GA62444@florian.hastek.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050125034045.GA62444@florian.hastek.net>
Message-ID: <4EA026D3-6E88-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>

> It's a little more work, resulting in a lot more control. For an
> application as critical (and as modular) as Apache, why be tied to a
> ports tree that brings with it G-- knows what political baggage and
> dependency limitations?

Funny, that's kind of why I don't like linux.

> Wouldn't you want full control of your
> complex build of Apache/PHP or mod_perl, or _________? As it
> appears, a coreteam/ports tree maintenance decision can put an end
> to my platform upgrade path essentially overnight.

No doubt, I love being able to modify configure args in FreeBSD's ports.

-Bjorn




From pete  Mon Jan 24 23:47:49 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:47:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] emacs read-only mode
Message-ID: <20050125044749.GB46876@finn.nomadlogic.org>

hey all,
	i'm a slacker (altho i did do a little googling first)
but anyway...does anyone know of a read-only mode for emacs.
i.e. i'd like to mimic how i use view to load vim in readonly mode
which i find helpfull in grokking new code, troubleshooting, reading
log/config files  etc...


cheers,
	pete

ps-->i know i could just use view but i'm "forcing" myself to learn
emacs for fun and profit ;)



-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Tue Jan 25 02:12:24 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:12:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <2D757F56-6E58-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<8c50a3c305012411456e1f3644@mail.gmail.com>
	<2D757F56-6E58-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050125071224.GA51779@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2005 at 05:34:58PM -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:
> 

> 
> At some point, I would also like to see free jails or shared virtual 
> hosting provided free to NYC*BUG members by somebody. . . either the 
> firm donates and manages for us, or we have a box they host for us, and 
> we run the box, provide jails, etc. . .
> 

i'd even like to take this a step further and possibly look into some sort
of "co-op ISP" type situation.  maybe where interested members from nycbug
and other UG's get together and see if it would make sense to go in and 
lease out a rack from a co-lo facility.  hopefully giving an ISP very good
exposure from the user groups, and members get a cut-rate for a rack or so.
i know i pay out of pocket for dedicated internet connect's for work/play, 
and can assume others would be interested as well, if it makes sense 
financially that is.


-pete

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From lists  Tue Jan 25 07:00:07 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:00:07 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1CtPOW26R8-0006CJ@mrelay.perfora.net>


Who said CAcert was dead?  

Newsforge ran this: http://tinyurl.com/6q7eg

Michael



From dan  Tue Jan 25 08:17:30 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:17:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
Message-ID: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>

Hi folks,

I'm trying to get BSDCan 2005 listed on OSNews.com.  My attempt 
yesterday failed (I say that because other stories have been appeared 
on their fron page since I submitted).

Does anyone have contacts at OSNews?

cheers
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From sunny-ml  Tue Jan 25 08:25:58 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:25:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200501250825.58532.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Monday 24 January 2005 14:33, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!
>

I can provide virtualized NetBSD hosting.  You log in as root do whatever you 
want, run your own networking firewalls, etc etc etc.  This is *not* jail() 
or any jail() derivative, it is something more powerful/flexible called XEN.  
(which is openly backed/supported by the likes of IBM and Intel)

(the FreeBSD port to XEN is somewhat new and shaky)

contact me offlist if interested

Sunny Dubey



From lists  Tue Jan 25 08:34:09 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:34:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
In-Reply-To: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>
References: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050125083409.31407ddc@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:17:30 -0500
"Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:

> Does anyone have contacts at OSNews?
> 

I do not have contacts, but, money talks... 
maybe they would listen if you paid the $20 subscription
price.  It is for a good cause anyway, right?

Michael

-- 
---



From chsnyder  Tue Jan 25 09:15:33 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:15:33 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert
In-Reply-To: <0MKz5u-1CtPOW26R8-0006CJ@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz5u-1CtPOW26R8-0006CJ@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <b76252690501250615174da81e@mail.gmail.com>

Until CAcert is added to the default CA list in Mozilla/Firefox (and
other browsers), what is the advantage over self-signed certs?



From bob  Tue Jan 25 09:42:06 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:42:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] CAcert
In-Reply-To: <b76252690501250615174da81e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0MKz5u-1CtPOW26R8-0006CJ@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<b76252690501250615174da81e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <491C5C03-6EDF-11D9-8863-000A95BA5446@redivi.com>

On Jan 25, 2005, at 9:15, csnyder wrote:

> Until CAcert is added to the default CA list in Mozilla/Firefox (and
> other browsers), what is the advantage over self-signed certs?

They're also useful for signing email.  The user only has to accept the 
CACert root once.  If the user uses ONLY your servers, it's of course a 
wash.

-bob

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From matt  Tue Jan 25 10:27:13 2005
From: matt (Matthew Terenzio)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:27:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] list replies
Message-ID: <964A774A-6EE5-11D9-9081-0003938BDF32@jobsforge.com>

I apologize for sending some replies off list.

I'm just getting used to the reply button not going back to the list 
the way it does for NYPHP.

I just need to pay more attention to what I'm doing and not get so 
excited about a topic.

Matt Terenzio




From scottro  Tue Jan 25 10:53:36 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:53:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Samba and Mac OS X problem
Message-ID: <20050125155336.GA5506@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I have the feeling I'm missing something obvious here, but I haven't
found anything googling.

We just incorporated some Mac graphic artists into our network.  There
is a shared directory on a BSD samba server. /usr/smiths that the smiths
group uses.

There is a also a folder /usr/home/cross.  I wanted to mount this on
cross' Mac, so she could copy files from there to the Smith's directory.
Both have more or less identical lines in smb.conf, read only = no
public = no.

When I try to mount cross on the Mac, it asks for authentication, I type
in the cross user name and NT domain password.  It then just asks for
reauthentication and won't mount the share.  When I do this with the
smiths folder (cross is a member of smiths) it mounts without trouble.

What stupid thing am I missing here?  I have the feeling it's one of
those things where I have looked at it so long I'm overlooking something
obvious. 


TIA

- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Principal Snyder: It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that 
that gets you eaten. 
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From mspitzer  Tue Jan 25 11:02:46 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:02:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <2D757F56-6E58-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<8c50a3c305012411456e1f3644@mail.gmail.com>
	<2D757F56-6E58-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305012508025e738b89@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:34:58 -0500, G. Rosamond <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> GeekISP, Loftmail/BizIntegrators, NY Internet. . . then Pilosoft the
> Linux one with heavy-duy Alex. . .

I vote for keeping it a BSD resource and encouriging the linux people
to keep there own list, that we can link to.  And they can link to
ours as well.

> 
> There are others, but I can't remember off the top of my head . . .
> 
> At some point, I would also like to see free jails or shared virtual
> hosting provided free to NYC*BUG members by somebody. . . either the
> firm donates and manages for us, or we have a box they host for us, and
> we run the box, provide jails, etc. . .
> 
> MS: other services to include. . .?  EMail/WWW hosting, ISP, etc. . .

I kinda like the xen, think opensource vmware, approach that Sunny
mentioned for the tech.   And if people want nycbug.org email
addresses we should be able to help them out with aliases at least.

> 
> Criteria to get on the list. . ? Free/Open Source or BSD-only?

BSD, see above

marc
> 
> This is a use for the BSD Tracker app that we really haven't pushed
> enough. . .
> 
> g
> 
>



From tux  Tue Jan 25 11:10:23 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:10:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Samba and Mac OS X problem
References: <20050125155336.GA5506@uws1.starlofashions.com>
Message-ID: <001201c502f8$60062e90$6400a8c0@olympus>

: When I try to mount cross on the Mac, it asks for authentication, I type
: in the cross user name and NT domain password.  It then just asks for
: reauthentication and won't mount the share.  When I do this with the
: smiths folder (cross is a member of smiths) it mounts without trouble.
:
: What stupid thing am I missing here?  I have the feeling it's one of
: those things where I have looked at it so long I'm overlooking something
: obvious.

Have you added that user as a Samba user on the BSD box? (smbpasswd -a user)  I've
run into that same thing on a Windows network and curse myself for not remembering
to do that step.  Don't know if that'll work (if that's the issue) but it's what I
always trip over..

-Kev




From bruno  Tue Jan 25 11:52:03 2005
From: bruno (bruno)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:52:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] apache stability
In-Reply-To: <20050125031912.GA46876@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1CshPO0dvd-0004su@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050124001506.GB32349@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050124024704.GA27314@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050125030820.GA34398@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<20050125031912.GA46876@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20050125165203.GT2804@bizintegrators.com>

> > I applaud OpenBSD for taking a stance on free licenses, yes.   But I'm
> > disappointed as I watch them get further and further away from production
> > releases the rest of the world is using.  
> > 
> > There is really no good choice here.  OBSD certainly can't spend scarce
> > resources to keep Apache (and other good software) up to date in their
> > own sources.  But the rest of the world moves on.  Soon, those
> > versions will be *way* out of date, and won't work with other software.
> > What then?

Depends how you look at it. The way I see it, OpenBSD moves on, and
the rest of the world is spending their time on things I don't need,
or care about. To me, official Apache is out of date, and I'm so very
happy that OBSD did what they did. :) So, the choice is yours, as
always, whatever works best for you is what you should do.

Also, OpenBSD Apache _is_ up to date, plus extra patches, for 1.3.x.
They don't like Apache2, for its license and other reasons.

Part of running OpenBSD is understanding that they do things their
way, and if you start fighting it, you will be in great pain, and
might as well run something else.

> > 
> > I'm feeling this pain right now.  I want to put up a web site on OBSD.
> > What server should I use?  Apache 1.3.29?  1.3.31?  thttpd?
> > (Note, I run thttpd elsewhere and I do like it.)

OBSD Apache would be my suggestion.

> > 
> > No clear answers I'm afraid.  What I'm really concerned about is that this
> > will start to come up over and over again.
> > 
> 
> well as I understand the issue b/w Apache and the OBSD folks is that not only
> are there incompatible issues with the license but it seems that there were
> some patches that the OBSD folks were trying to push into the main Apache
> tree that were not being accepted by the apache devs.

Yes, I heard the same thing. 

> 
> 
> so...i think for the time being there is no harm in running obsd's offical
> apache release (bug fixes are still being applied) and I don't think
> any major 
> new functionality should be making it's way into the 1.3 branch anyway so 
> most people should be OK.  frankly I'm not even %100 convinced that
> the changes 
> in apache 2.x would benefit most people running OBSD...although i
> could totally 
> be wrong on that one....

I agree, run OpenBSD Apache unless you need a feature offered by
another web server.

bruno
--
http://www.loftmail.com



From scottro  Tue Jan 25 12:16:34 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:16:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Samba and Mac OS X problem
In-Reply-To: <001201c502f8$60062e90$6400a8c0@olympus>
References: <20050125155336.GA5506@uws1.starlofashions.com>
	<001201c502f8$60062e90$6400a8c0@olympus>
Message-ID: <20050125171634.GA5867@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 11:10:23AM -0500, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> : When I try to mount cross on the Mac, it asks for authentication, I type
> : in the cross user name and NT domain password.  It then just asks for
> : reauthentication and won't mount the share.  When I do this with the
> : smiths folder (cross is a member of smiths) it mounts without trouble.
> :
> : What stupid thing am I missing here?  I have the feeling it's one of
> : those things where I have looked at it so long I'm overlooking something
> : obvious.
> 
> Have you added that user as a Samba user on the BSD box? (smbpasswd -a user)  I've
> run into that same thing on a Windows network and curse myself for not remembering
> to do that step.  Don't know if that'll work (if that's the issue) but it's what I
> always trip over..

No, I don't miss that one anymore.  (I have often enough.)  :)  The user
cross authenticates with the smiths directory without problem.  I wonder
if it's some peculiar Mac thing that I simply don't know.


- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
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Giles: Nothing left but skin and cartilage.
Xander: In other words, this was no boating accident.
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From george  Tue Jan 25 16:13:46 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:13:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Samba and Mac OS X problem
In-Reply-To: <20050125171634.GA5867@uws1.starlofashions.com>
References: <20050125155336.GA5506@uws1.starlofashions.com>
	<001201c502f8$60062e90$6400a8c0@olympus>
	<20050125171634.GA5867@uws1.starlofashions.com>
Message-ID: <20050125211346.GB9276@sta.local>

On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 12:16:34PM -0500, Scott Robbins wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 11:10:23AM -0500, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>> : When I try to mount cross on the Mac, it asks for authentication, I type
>> : in the cross user name and NT domain password.  It then just asks for
>> : reauthentication and won't mount the share.  When I do this with the
>> : smiths folder (cross is a member of smiths) it mounts without trouble.
>> :
>> : What stupid thing am I missing here?  I have the feeling it's one of
>> : those things where I have looked at it so long I'm overlooking something
>> : obvious.
>> 
>> Have you added that user as a Samba user on the BSD box? (smbpasswd -a user)  I've
>> run into that same thing on a Windows network and curse myself for not remembering
>> to do that step.  Don't know if that'll work (if that's the issue) but it's what I
>> always trip over..
>
>No, I don't miss that one anymore.  (I have often enough.)  :)  The user
>cross authenticates with the smiths directory without problem.  I wonder
>if it's some peculiar Mac thing that I simply don't know.

to get it done, you might mount cross via nfs to localhost in smiths.
or it may be easier to create a new mount point just for cross...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From scottro  Tue Jan 25 17:14:23 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:14:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Samba and Mac OS X problem
In-Reply-To: <20050125211346.GB9276@sta.local>
References: <20050125155336.GA5506@uws1.starlofashions.com>
	<001201c502f8$60062e90$6400a8c0@olympus>
	<20050125171634.GA5867@uws1.starlofashions.com>
	<20050125211346.GB9276@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050125221423.GA7551@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 04:13:46PM -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 12:16:34PM -0500, Scott Robbins wrote:


> >No, I don't miss that one anymore.  (I have often enough.)  :)  The user
> >cross authenticates with the smiths directory without problem.  I wonder
> >if it's some peculiar Mac thing that I simply don't know.
> 
> to get it done, you might mount cross via nfs to localhost in smiths.
> or it may be easier to create a new mount point just for cross...

Yes, I would have done something like that had it been essential--the
real point was to get the cross files into smiths, so I did it on the
BSD box with cp.  :)  (which was much faster as well).  

What is annoying me is ~why~ it isn't working.  



- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
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gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Ford: I wanna be like you...A vampire. 
Spike: I've known you for two minutes and I can't stand you. I 
don't really feature you living forever. Can I eat him now love?
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From dan  Tue Jan 25 17:35:22 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:35:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
In-Reply-To: <20050125083409.31407ddc@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>
Message-ID: <41F6835A.18452.28BB85DC@localhost>

On 25 Jan 2005 at 8:34, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:17:30 -0500
> "Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have contacts at OSNews?
> 
> I do not have contacts, but, money talks... 
> maybe they would listen if you paid the $20 subscription
> price.  It is for a good cause anyway, right?

I find the concept of buying news distasteful and unethical.

But it seems someone posted something today as part of another 
article:

  http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9495

I will try again after the papers are announced.

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From lists  Tue Jan 25 17:44:57 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:44:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
In-Reply-To: <41F6835A.18452.28BB85DC@localhost>
References: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>
	<41F6835A.18452.28BB85DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050125174457.5985dce9@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:35:22 -0500
"Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:

> > On 25 Jan 2005 at 8:34, michael wrote:
> > It is for a good cause anyway, right?
> 
> I find the concept of buying news distasteful and unethical.
> 

I may agree or disagree with that sentiment, but it remains...
BSDCan is still a good cause.
Michael

-- 
---


-- 
---



From dan  Tue Jan 25 18:12:56 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:12:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
In-Reply-To: <20050125174457.5985dce9@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <41F6835A.18452.28BB85DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <41F68C28.31547.28DDE879@localhost>

On 25 Jan 2005 at 17:44, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:35:22 -0500
> "Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:
> 
> > > On 25 Jan 2005 at 8:34, michael wrote:
> > > It is for a good cause anyway, right?
> > 
> > I find the concept of buying news distasteful and unethical.
> 
> I may agree or disagree with that sentiment, but it remains...
> BSDCan is still a good cause.

Thanks.  I appreciate the support.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From spork  Tue Jan 25 20:29:21 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:29:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
In-Reply-To: <20050125174457.5985dce9@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>
	<41F6835A.18452.28BB85DC@localhost>
	<20050125174457.5985dce9@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501252029030.1192@charles-sprickmans-computer.local>

Just put "Linux" in the subject somewhere and they'll grab it.  :)

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, michael wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:35:22 -0500
> "Dan Langille" <dan at langille.org> wrote:
>
>>> On 25 Jan 2005 at 8:34, michael wrote:
>>> It is for a good cause anyway, right?
>>
>> I find the concept of buying news distasteful and unethical.
>>
>
> I may agree or disagree with that sentiment, but it remains...
> BSDCan is still a good cause.
> Michael
>
> -- 
> ---
>
>
> -- 
> ---
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Tue Jan 25 21:03:39 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:03:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan on OSNews
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501252029030.1192@charles-sprickmans-computer.local>
References: <41F6009A.26227.26BCC83A@localhost>
	<41F6835A.18452.28BB85DC@localhost>
	<20050125174457.5985dce9@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501252029030.1192@charles-sprickmans-computer.local>
Message-ID: <7ED31372-6F3E-11D9-8849-000D9328615E@sddi.net>


On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:29 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Just put "Linux" in the subject somewhere and they'll grab it.  :)
>

Or something wildly inaccurate, like "the Gentoo Core of OS X"

OSNews does have a reputation to maintain.  . . <g>

g




From mspitzer  Tue Jan 25 21:15:09 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:15:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>

Since things have quited down here, let me pour gas on the coals:

We should use NetBSD for the OS and not OpenBSD and here is why:

1: ease of development, XEN allows us to do qa work on 1 computer and
you do not have to buy a soukris box to do it, or have it handy when
you can work on it.

2: Of the big 3 BSD's it is the one with the most design time on being embeded

3: There are several very good NetBSD people in NYC, it might come in handy

4: carp is just not an issue, If you have that much need of up time
then you need a support contract and multple lines in from different
providers.

marc



From pete  Tue Jan 25 21:24:58 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:24:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050126022458.GA5799@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 09:15:09PM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> Since things have quited down here, let me pour gas on the coals:
> 
> We should use NetBSD for the OS and not OpenBSD and here is why:
> 
> 1: ease of development, XEN allows us to do qa work on 1 computer and
> you do not have to buy a soukris box to do it, or have it handy when
> you can work on it.
> 
> 2: Of the big 3 BSD's it is the one with the most design time on being embeded
> 
> 3: There are several very good NetBSD people in NYC, it might come in handy
> 
> 4: carp is just not an issue, If you have that much need of up time
> then you need a support contract and multple lines in from different
> providers.
> 


those are pretty convincing arguments, how is pf support in netbsd 2.0?  i've
never run it (assuming we would still want to use pf).

-pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From mspitzer  Tue Jan 25 21:30:06 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:30:06 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050126022458.GA5799@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050126022458.GA5799@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:24:58 -0500, Pete Wright
<pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> those are pretty convincing arguments, how is pf support in netbsd 2.0?  i've
> never run it (assuming we would still want to use pf).

pf is in core as is ipf, 3.x I think, and ipf 4.x might be a port.

marc



From o_sleep  Tue Jan 25 22:21:11 2005
From: o_sleep (O_Sleep)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:21:11 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <539C882A-6F49-11D9-9DA7-003065A248EA@belovedarctos.com>

> It actually makes sense for someone in NYC*BUG to maintain a easy to 
> install script for Soekris with CF card as the medium.  Complete with 
> home connectivity. . . PPOE, etc.

Count me in on helping out as well.  I can help with any shell or perl 
scripting as well as any sysadmin tasks.

Besides, I have been eyeing these Soekris devices as well for a while.

-Bjorn




From mspitzer  Tue Jan 25 22:52:27 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:52:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050126022458.GA5799@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050125195286a5c92@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:30:06 -0500, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:24:58 -0500, Pete Wright
> <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> > those are pretty convincing arguments, how is pf support in netbsd 2.0?  i've
> > never run it (assuming we would still want to use pf).
> 
> pf is in core as is ipf, 3.x I think, and ipf 4.x might be a port.
> 
> marc
> 

Ok here is a first cut of the needed services this box needs to provide:

1: firewall

2: nat

3: dhcp server

4: dhcp client

5: port forwarding

6: logging/syslog

7: web management interface

8: authentication, ppoe for dls for example

9: self manageing, log file rotation etc.

10: users guide

11: should cost under $300 including everything, cf card, mounting
hardware, ...)
      we should look into if soukris would put together a kit

12: ability to save config file  off the box and restore.

13: no ssh/telnet access out of the box,  iff you are good enough to
figure it out more power to you and you are good enough to fix it so
do not bother me.

fill in the rest of the must haves below

now on to V2

1: dmz, but keep it in mind when building V1

2: vpn ipsec/pptp

3: simple ids, not a full snort install


basic design decisions:

1: one and only one scripting/programming language and I vote for tcl

2: we need to find out how much stuff we can buy for about $300, how
big a CF card can we get?

3: how are we going to do upgrades/patches

there is lots to bicker^w err discuss after we get this round settled.

Let the discussion begin,

marc

----
I think the src for X is larger then the source for netbsd, this cvs
checkout is taking forever.



From nycbug  Tue Jan 25 23:01:41 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:01:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050125195286a5c92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050126022458.GA5799@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c3050125195286a5c92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050126040140.GA66575@florian.hastek.net>

Marc Spitzer:
> Ok here is a first cut of the needed services this box needs to provide:
> 1: firewall
> 
> 2: nat
> 
> 3: dhcp server
> 
> 4: dhcp client
> 
> 5: port forwarding
> 
> 6: logging/syslog
> 
> 7: web management interface
> 
> 8: authentication, ppoe for dls for example
> 
> 9: self manageing, log file rotation etc.
> 
> 10: users guide
> 
> 11: should cost under $300 including everything, cf card, mounting
> hardware, ...)
>       we should look into if soukris would put together a kit
> 
> 12: ability to save config file  off the box and restore.
> 
> 13: no ssh/telnet access out of the box,  iff you are good enough to
> figure it out more power to you and you are good enough to fix it so
> do not bother me.
> 
> fill in the rest of the must haves below


How about NTP - for the inside hosts to use but also so the
syslog/IDS is accurate too:)






From mspitzer  Tue Jan 25 23:14:27 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:14:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050126040140.GA66575@florian.hastek.net>
References: <84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050126022458.GA5799@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c3050125195286a5c92@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050126040140.GA66575@florian.hastek.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305012520145f19095a@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:01:41 -0500, a nice bug <nycbug at hastek.com> wrote:
> Marc Spitzer:
> > Ok here is a first cut of the needed services this box needs to provide:
> > 1: firewall
> >
> > 2: nat
> >
> > 3: dhcp server
> >
> > 4: dhcp client
> >
> > 5: port forwarding
> >
> > 6: logging/syslog
> >
> > 7: web management interface
> >
> > 8: authentication, ppoe for dls for example
> >
> > 9: self manageing, log file rotation etc.
> >
> > 10: users guide
> >
> > 11: should cost under $300 including everything, cf card, mounting
> > hardware, ...)
> >       we should look into if soukris would put together a kit
> >
> > 12: ability to save config file  off the box and restore.
> >
> > 13: no ssh/telnet access out of the box,  iff you are good enough to
> > figure it out more power to you and you are good enough to fix it so
> > do not bother me.
> >
> > fill in the rest of the must haves below
> 
> 
> How about NTP - for the inside hosts to use but also so the
> syslog/IDS is accurate too:)

yup that is needed

marc



From mspitzer  Wed Jan 26 00:10:21 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:10:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source solaris
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305012521107dd240e7@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.opensolaris.org/



From elric  Wed Jan 26 11:03:10 2005
From: elric (Roland Dowdeswell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:03:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:30:06 EST."
	<8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20050126160310.CFE1037056@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1106706606 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Marc Spitzer wrote:
>

>pf is in core as is ipf, 3.x I think, and ipf 4.x might be a port.

NetBSD 2.0's IPF version is 4.1.3.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From mspitzer  Wed Jan 26 11:05:51 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:05:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050126160310.CFE1037056@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <8c50a3c305012518306df86158@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050126160310.CFE1037056@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050126080520798c9e@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:03:10 -0500, Roland Dowdeswell <elric at imrryr.org> wrote:
> On 1106706606 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
> Marc Spitzer wrote:
> >
> 
> >pf is in core as is ipf, 3.x I think, and ipf 4.x might be a port.
> 
> NetBSD 2.0's IPF version is 4.1.3.

Thanks for the correction

marc

> 
> --
>     Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/
>



From steve.rieger  Wed Jan 26 11:30:52 2005
From: steve.rieger (steve rieger)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:30:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] spare hardware
Message-ID: <41F7C5BC.3040004@tbwachiat.com>

hi all, i have a few scsi 9 gb h/d i believe that they are ultra2, if 
interested let me know

also have a good pc case with an amd cpu 3000, no ram and a cdrom. for 
you to take, let me know if interested.


thanx



also if anybody on this list has any extra sun parts for sale please let 
me know offlist


thanx



From steve.rieger  Wed Jan 26 11:31:42 2005
From: steve.rieger (steve rieger)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:31:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050126160310.CFE1037056@arioch.imrryr.org>
References: <20050126160310.CFE1037056@arioch.imrryr.org>
Message-ID: <41F7C5EE.7050908@tbwachiat.com>

upon recommondation from folks in this group i am getting on of these 
contraptions in february. am willing to let the gurus here mess with it, 
and then g4u it up to the nycbug ftp server, and whoever needs a decent 
config can then g4u slurp it at a later date.


Roland Dowdeswell wrote:
> On 1106706606 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
> Marc Spitzer wrote:
> 
> 
>>pf is in core as is ipf, 3.x I think, and ipf 4.x might be a port.
> 
> 
> NetBSD 2.0's IPF version is 4.1.3.
> 
> --
>     Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 
> 



From spork  Wed Jan 26 13:02:12 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:02:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> Since things have quited down here, let me pour gas on the coals:
>
> We should use NetBSD for the OS and not OpenBSD and here is why:

That's an interesting idea...  My best guess is that this list is mainly 
freebsd users with a sprinkling of openbsd users and just about no NetBSD 
users.  That's kind of sad considering the number of NYC folks on the Net 
team...  Anyhow it sounds very interesting.  I've been meaning to play 
with NetBSD again (haven't used it since 0.9).

Any NetBSD folks here?

Anyone want to give a quick market-speak rundown on XEN?  I know you need 
a specific OS port to make it work, but I'm unsure if a Linux "host" is 
required or not and what kind of resource allocation control the host OS 
has over the guests.

I'm all for your idea.  I'd rather learn NetBSD than some distro-du-jour.

Charles

> 1: ease of development, XEN allows us to do qa work on 1 computer and
> you do not have to buy a soukris box to do it, or have it handy when
> you can work on it.
>
> 2: Of the big 3 BSD's it is the one with the most design time on being embeded
>
> 3: There are several very good NetBSD people in NYC, it might come in handy
>
> 4: carp is just not an issue, If you have that much need of up time
> then you need a support contract and multple lines in from different
> providers.
>
> marc
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From elric  Wed Jan 26 13:03:34 2005
From: elric (Roland C. Dowdeswell)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:03:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:02:12 EST."
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local> 
Message-ID: <20050126180334.626B437054@arioch.imrryr.org>

On 1106762532 seconds since the Beginning of the UNIX epoch
Charles Sprickman wrote:
>

>Any NetBSD folks here?

Yes, there are a few of us.

--
    Roland Dowdeswell                      http://www.Imrryr.ORG/~elric/



From jbaltz  Wed Jan 26 13:09:50 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:09:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>
	<41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
Message-ID: <41F7DCEE.7070601@omnipod.com>

On 1/26/2005 1:02 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> Any NetBSD folks here?

Running it (2.0, not 2.0.1) on my Toshiba Satellite A10 laptop I am. 
Rebuilding every goshdarn thing now since I borked the standard kde 
install by accident. (Don't get me started on how long it took to get 
audio to work.)
Alas, I couldn't get FreeBSD to install at all on this particular laptop 
and I haven't bothered with OpenBSD.

> Charles

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at omnipod.com    +1 646 230 8750
Thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.




From george  Wed Jan 26 13:13:08 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:13:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
Message-ID: <03e2797d688059478eeae834ae3e9e6b@sddi.net>


On Jan 26, 2005, at 1:02 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>> Since things have quited down here, let me pour gas on the coals:
>>
>> We should use NetBSD for the OS and not OpenBSD and here is why:
>
> That's an interesting idea...  My best guess is that this list is 
> mainly freebsd users with a sprinkling of openbsd users and just about 
> no NetBSD users.  That's kind of sad considering the number of NYC 
> folks on the Net team...  Anyhow it sounds very interesting.  I've 
> been meaning to play with NetBSD again (haven't used it since 0.9).

Not at all Chip.


>
> Any NetBSD folks here?

There's a bunch, besides Roland. . .

>
> Anyone want to give a quick market-speak rundown on XEN?  I know you 
> need a specific OS port to make it work, but I'm unsure if a Linux 
> "host" is required or not and what kind of resource allocation control 
> the host OS has over the guests.
>
> I'm all for your idea.  I'd rather learn NetBSD than some 
> distro-du-jour.
>

LOL.




From lists  Wed Jan 26 14:22:54 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:22:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <41F7DCEE.7070601@omnipod.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com> <41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>
	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
	<41F7DCEE.7070601@omnipod.com>
Message-ID: <20050126142254.19aba6e4@delinux.abwatley.com>

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:09:50 -0500
"Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz at omnipod.com> wrote:

> On 1/26/2005 1:02 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> > Any NetBSD folks here?
> 
> Running it (2.0, not 2.0.1) on my Toshiba Satellite A10 laptop I am. 
> Rebuilding every goshdarn thing now since I borked the standard kde 
> install by accident. (Don't get me started on how long it took to get 
> audio to work.)
> Alas, I couldn't get FreeBSD to install at all on this particular
> laptop and I haven't bothered with OpenBSD.
> 
> //jbaltz

How funny, I am the complete opposite.  

I *really* wanted cgd on my IBM T21 laptop.  Influenced by the author's
kind words on this list, I tried to install NetBSD 2.0 on a partition. 

I somehow managed to hose everything, including my existing FreeBSD
partition.  So I know what 'rebuilding every goshdarn thing' means - I
was ticked, albeit at my own error somewhere. Even on the second
try, with the whole disk <grrrr>, I could not get it to work.  It turns
out, the 2 pccard nics and 1 borrowed pccard wireless nic were NOT on
the supported list anyway. Even without the nics, I was really surprised
I could not get it to work properly. FreeBSD installed like a dream, as
did OBSD.

Again, I really wanted to load NetBSD, but I have had a really easy time
with OBSD on everything from Sun pizzaboxes (w/out cd or diskette) to
dell rack mount, to IBM laptop, to little soekris.

Hey, next installfest I'll bring the laptop and the NetBSD 2.0 and we
can give it another try.
Michael


- 
---


-- 
---



From tillman  Wed Jan 26 14:28:13 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:28:13 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
References: <5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>
	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>
	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>
	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>
Message-ID: <20050126192813.GS46047@seekingfire.com>

On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 01:02:12PM -0500, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> That's an interesting idea...  My best guess is that this list is mainly 
> freebsd users with a sprinkling of openbsd users and just about no NetBSD 
> users.  That's kind of sad considering the number of NYC folks on the Net 
> team...  Anyhow it sounds very interesting.  I've been meaning to play 
> with NetBSD again (haven't used it since 0.9).
> 
> Any NetBSD folks here?

Yup :-)

I run NetBSD on an SGI O2, on a Vaxstation 4000/60, on a SparcStation 20
and a SparcStation 10, on a DECStation 5000/25, and the OS in my IBM
thin client is based on NetBSD. I don't have any i386 boxes running
NetBSD -- perhaps that's common, perhaps not. My i386 boxes tend to be
FreeBSD, though they're outnumbered by RISC boxes and Vaxen (by CPU, not
by MIPS-count).

I tend not to mention operating systems by name very much because Unix
is, more or less, Unix (my .sig from the ironicly-minded random
sigmonster notwithstanding, heh -- he must not be using cfengine).

Aside from BSDish operating systems, I also run OpenVMS, Solaris and
IRIX at home and Linux on my laptop (integrating heterogenous systems is
both a hobby and a part of my job).  On a list like this one I mentally
translate everything into FreeBSD terms and jargon ("ports" instead of
"pkgsrc" or "RPMs", for example) because it makes for a handy lingua
franca[1].

I think having a common frame of reference makes it easier to talk about
ideas and solutions with folks who aren't running what I'm running ...
and often I'll never fess up that I'm translating, for example, file
paths that I'm posting to a list in order to participate in an
interesting conversation ;-)

-T


1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca ... the history behind the
   word is fascinating.


--
"If you're a UNIX user, all UNIX are pretty much the same. If you're a
 UNIX programmer, all UNIX are a little bit different. If you're a UNIX
 system admin, all UNIX are completely different!"
  -- Bob Koehler, Hubble Space Telescope Payload Flight Software Team



From jbaltz  Wed Jan 26 15:41:24 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:41:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soho router options (soekris?)
In-Reply-To: <20050126142254.19aba6e4@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <BE132BC2.417F1%branto@branto.com>
	<41EE786D.6070707@omnipod.com>	<5962683E-6A2D-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<8c50a3c3050119074350231304@mail.gmail.com>	<84E653A6-6A33-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<7D7C5A4A-6A34-11D9-89BC-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>	<34960748-6A3C-11D9-B39B-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<972976F6-6AFB-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>	<0D7A0CB2-6AFC-11D9-A783-000D9328615E@sddi.net>	<9B7F5A42-6B0C-11D9-9E8A-000A277AE326@vcsnyc.org>	<8c50a3c3050125181531c40bc9@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0501261259150.20134@oof.local>	<41F7DCEE.7070601@omnipod.com>
	<20050126142254.19aba6e4@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <41F80074.80508@omnipod.com>

On 1/26/2005 2:22 PM, michael wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:09:50 -0500
> "Jerry B. Altzman" <jbaltz at omnipod.com> wrote:
>>Running it (2.0, not 2.0.1) on my Toshiba Satellite A10 laptop I am. 
> How funny, I am the complete opposite.  

Well, I won't hold it against you :-)

> Again, I really wanted to load NetBSD, but I have had a really easy time
> with OBSD on everything from Sun pizzaboxes (w/out cd or diskette) to
> dell rack mount, to IBM laptop, to little soekris.

I have OBSD 3.5 running at home on a SS10; it booted and installed off 
of floppy then net just fine. (My SS20 runs debian for the time being.)

> Michael

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at omnipod.com    +1 646 230 8750
Thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.




From jbaltz  Wed Jan 26 18:20:52 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:20:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] hopeless wireless search
Message-ID: <41F825D4.90301@omnipod.com>

(yes, I have googled)

Anyone know how to coerce a recalcitrant USR 5410 wireless card to speak 
properly to NetBSD 2.0?
dmesg says that it's:

> (manufacturer 0x0, product 0x0) Texas Instruments product 0x9066 (miscellaneous network) at cardbus0 dev 0 function 0 not configured

Yes, I've poked around netbsd.org, and googled, but just maybe someone 
else knows about this #%!% card.

Thanks!

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman        jbaltz at omnipod.com    +1 646 230 8750
Thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.




From ike  Wed Jan 26 18:47:09 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:47:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <200501250825.58532.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<E1089BA2-6E3E-11D9-A41E-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200501250825.58532.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <98148AB4-6FF4-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Sunny, All,

On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:25 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Monday 24 January 2005 14:33, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!
>>
>
> I can provide virtualized NetBSD hosting.  You log in as root do 
> whatever you
> want, run your own networking firewalls, etc etc etc.  This is *not* 
> jail()
> or any jail() derivative, it is something more powerful/flexible 
> called XEN.

I don't mean to be confrontational with what folows, seeing as you and 
I have a decent dialouge with some lively banter, but I gotta ask you 
to put your money where your mouth is with XEN here man.

I never think it's fair to say one thing is more or less 
powerful/flexible than another, and of course, your bound to meet 
resistance pimping a Linux based product on a BSD mailing list <g>.


--
Question:

Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can 
you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?

I'm not sure, but for a BSD based mailing list, I'd think that it 
should be clearly stated that you'd be running a NetBSD Virtual Machine 
image, running inside of XEN, on a Linux distro?

--
Additional Questions:

- Does XEN support VM's of other OS's, or does only NetBSD fit the bill 
due to it's rep. for hardware compatability?  (i.e. to meet some funky 
stuff in the VM?)

- Are there any fundamental differences in how the VM accesses devices, 
memory, networking, etc... which is different than in jail(8)'ing or 
User Mode Linux (UML)?

- How long has XEN existed, and beyond the commercial backing, what 
kind of history does XEN have for stability and maturity in 
production-level environments, especially large-scale systems running 
on the public internet?

- How does XEN fundamentally work?  I have read the XEN virtual machine 
papers, available here,

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/performance.html

but it only seems to cover like systems- and seems to be focused 
primarily on performance (an issue with classical emulation systems).

jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see as 
an important factor when working with the complexity which arises, in 
the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating Systems.
How does XEN help an administrator manage the complexity, and how 
complex is the actual virtualization mechanism itself?  (i.e. is it a 
'large' software like VMWare and the like? [I'm asking in the context 
of the relatively few lines of kernel code that make up the whole of 
Jail(8)])


> (which is openly backed/supported by the likes of IBM and Intel)
>
> (the FreeBSD port to XEN is somewhat new and shaky)
>
> contact me offlist if interested
>
> Sunny Dubey

Rocket-
.ike




From marco  Wed Jan 26 18:56:15 2005
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:56:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] McKusick Book
Message-ID: <20050126235615.GM26723@metm.org>

I think a bunch of people picked up this book at the talk at Columbia, 
I wanted to then hesitated 'cause I spend too much money on tech books.

Now I'm taking an OS course, and am thinking I sure would like to have
it lying around to checkup on certain things ...

So I'm wondering if someone has a copy I could borrow for a semester ?

Sorry if this request is out of place or annoying,

-- 
Marco



From alex  Wed Jan 26 19:08:57 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:08:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <98148AB4-6FF4-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501261859360.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> I don't mean to be confrontational with what folows, seeing as you and 
> I have a decent dialouge with some lively banter, but I gotta ask you 
> to put your money where your mouth is with XEN here man.

<snip>
> Question:
> 
> Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can
> you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?
Apples and oranges. Xen runs another OS, jail restricts a "root" user to
less-than-root privileges in a single OS environment OS. Can't compare
that. If anything, it is like comparing separation offered by having 
multiple users to a separation offered by having multiple hosts.

> I'm not sure, but for a BSD based mailing list, I'd think that it should
> be clearly stated that you'd be running a NetBSD Virtual Machine image,
> running inside of XEN, on a Linux distro?
And why does it matter for you?

> - Does XEN support VM's of other OS's, or does only NetBSD fit the bill
> due to it's rep. for hardware compatability?  (i.e. to meet some funky
> stuff in the VM?)
XEN supports lots of things, including windows.

> - Are there any fundamental differences in how the VM accesses devices,
> memory, networking, etc... which is different than in jail(8)'ing or
> User Mode Linux (UML)?
Xen is *similar* to UML. Xen is also similar to vmware/bochs. Xen is
somewhere in the middle between vmware/bochs and UML - in other words,
explicit support for Xen is necessary for a 'guest OS' (like UML but not
like vmware) and explicit support for Xen is necessary for host (like 
vmware but not like UML). Those tradeoffs give Xen significant performance 
boost compared to either vmware or UML.

> - How long has XEN existed, and beyond the commercial backing, what kind
> of history does XEN have for stability and maturity in production-level
> environments, especially large-scale systems running on the public
> internet?
Meh. What kind of history does vmware or bochs have? apples to apples, 
please.

> jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see as
> an important factor when working with the complexity which arises, in
> the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating Systems.
And ridiculously insecure. If there is a kernel bug in host OS, very high
chance you can be bitten by it if are running in a jail(8). If there is 
local ddos exploit, you will be able to exploit it in jail(8). With Xen, 
to do that, you need to 1) find a bug in guest kernel that would allow you 
to execute code in Xen context 2) find a bug in Xen that would allow you 
to execute code in host context 3) find a bug in host kernel that would 
screw up the machine.

> How does XEN help an administrator manage the complexity, and how
> complex is the actual virtualization mechanism itself?  (i.e. is it a
> 'large' software like VMWare and the like? [I'm asking in the context of
> the relatively few lines of kernel code that make up the whole of
> Jail(8)])
You'd be surprised how many lines of kernel code actually deal with "root 
but not really superuser thanks to possibility of being in jail". It is 
not a few.

Again, apples and oranges. To virtualize a x86 processor takes lots of 
code.


-alex




From sunny-ml  Wed Jan 26 20:25:31 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:25:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <98148AB4-6FF4-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<200501250825.58532.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<98148AB4-6FF4-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200501262025.31742.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Wednesday 26 January 2005 18:47, Agent Smith wrote:
> Hi Sunny, All,
>
> On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:25 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:
> > On Monday 24 January 2005 14:33, Isaac Levy wrote:
> >> Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!
> >
> > I can provide virtualized NetBSD hosting.  You log in as root do
> > whatever you
> > want, run your own networking firewalls, etc etc etc.  This is *not*
> > jail()
> > or any jail() derivative, it is something more powerful/flexible
> > called XEN.
>
> I don't mean to be confrontational with what folows, seeing as you and
> I have a decent dialouge with some lively banter, but I gotta ask you
> to put your money where your mouth is with XEN here man.
>

nothing is confrontational .... (not until we have our Matrix style fight 
involving flying, guns, and the 'truth' .. lol)

> I never think it's fair to say one thing is more or less
> powerful/flexible than another, and of course, your bound to meet
> resistance pimping a Linux based product on a BSD mailing list <g>.
>

Linux based yes, but the end result is a pure NetBSD experience for the end 
user.  The user will watch his/her the NetBSD kernel boot up, the user will 
log into a NetBSD system with NetBSD libraries and NetBSD tools.

In that sense, its very much like IBM's VM product.  IBM sells their z-Series 
with the ability to run many linux instances all at once.  (Well, its a bit 
more complicated than that, but this is long story short).  People don't care 
for the s390 architecture too much, nor do they care about VM ... they just 
want to run as many linux'es as they want for whatever reason they want (Once 
again, we'd have to start talking about things liked "partitioned hardware" 
to get any real meat into this XEN/VM comparsion discussion)

XEN is essentially a linux machine.  If you lock down the linux machine good 
enough (IE: no open ports, except for SSH on an off port), it becomes just as 
secure as any other machine from an external point of view.  (Internal 
security is an entire subject of its own.  But unlike UML, exploiting the 
virtualized kernel in XEN does not give you privileges on the host.)

So in the end, whether is a linux based product or not is somewhat irrelevant.  
Its all about the stability of the guest OS and the dedication of the 
developers of the guest OS to maintain and support the port of whatever guest 
OS.  (in this case the guest OS is Netbsd:  http://netbsd.org/Ports/xen/ )

>
> --
> Question:
>
> Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can
> you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?
>

Because you are booting the kernel, and have full control of *almost 
everything* once inside the kernel.

I could easily compile 13 different NetBSD kernels each with a different patch 
and boot them all at once to do mass testing.  It really doesn't get easier 
than that.

Additionally (as Marc had suggest) I could booth 13 differnet NetBSD installs 
each with a different ipf/pf/etc script and try tinkering with the networking 
till my face was blue, heh.  This includes control of ICMP, etc

> I'm not sure, but for a BSD based mailing list, I'd think that it
> should be clearly stated that you'd be running a NetBSD Virtual Machine
> image, running inside of XEN, on a Linux distro?
>

its inside XEN with is running on a linux distro.  But as stated above, its 
not entirely important.

> --
> Additional Questions:
>
> - Does XEN support VM's of other OS's, or does only NetBSD fit the bill
> due to it's rep. for hardware compatability?  (i.e. to meet some funky
> stuff in the VM?)

XEN can support any OS, but that OS must be ported to the 'XEN architecture'.  
Currently this includes linux and NetBSD, with FreeBSD support coming along 
the way.  And being that OpenBSD folks don't take it seriously.

XEN itself is currently limited to x86 and amd64.  There are no plans of 
changing this.  (intel and AMD apparently have people looking into XEN to 
ensure that it will work with whatever emt64/amd64 hardware partitioning 
exists in the future.  I guess they want to compete with IBM's 
VM/s390/zSeries combination *shrug*)

The following is a bit on the super technical side, and so I could easily be 
wrong ....

buuuutt I'm going to try anyways

lets suppose NetBSD has a foobar() syscall.  Implementing foobar() on x86 
requires different code than ppc64, obviously.  on x86 foobar() pretty much 
needs MMU support and nothing more.  But on ppc64 foobar() not only needs MMU 
support, but it can take advantage of other ppc64 target features.  So two 
sets of code is written for foobar().

XEN is the same sorta target.  If I as a NetBSD developer wanted foobar() on 
XEN, I would have to write code to this 'XEN architecture'.

I believe this is the way it works.

>
> - Are there any fundamental differences in how the VM accesses devices,
> memory, networking, etc... which is different than in jail(8)'ing or
> User Mode Linux (UML)?
>

I'm not too keen on the details with jail(8), and UML to some extent is a bit 
different than XEN.  But suffice to say, Alex's answer is some what on the 
mark.  XEN creates a quasi-architecture, that the host needs to provide 
support for, as well as the guest OSes need to support.

> - How long has XEN existed, and beyond the commercial backing, what
> kind of history does XEN have for stability and maturity in
> production-level environments, especially large-scale systems running
> on the public internet?
>

apparently XEN has existed for 3 years, but I have to admit a whole bunch of 
us didn't give it much thought till sometime mid-last year.  Redhat and SuSE 
are working to integrate XEN into their distros.  (Mandrake has me! haha)  
IBM stands behind it (I suppose they too are aware that efficient 
virtualization will soon be a commoddity product).  Intel and AMD stand 
behind it, largely for their own CPU partitioning schemes.

There is also XenSource which is a company that supports the code base and 
such.

> - How does XEN fundamentally work?  I have read the XEN virtual machine
> papers, available here,
>
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/performance.html
>
> but it only seems to cover like systems- and seems to be focused
> primarily on performance (an issue with classical emulation systems).
>

XEN works by creating a quasi-architecture on top x86.  So the amount of work 
needed to port an x86 friendly OS is very little.  And none of the userland 
libraries and tools have to be touched at all to work out-of-the-box.

> jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see as
> an important factor when working with the complexity which arises, in
> the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating Systems.
> How does XEN help an administrator manage the complexity,

xen comes with a control panel app and was built with mass hosting in mind.  
This I suppose is the single and biggest reason why people are so much more 
interested in it than the traditional UML.  The traditional UML was a more of 
hack'ish sorta thing in which everyone wrote their own tools for and such.

> and how 
> complex is the actual virtualization mechanism itself?  (i.e. is it a
> 'large' software like VMWare and the like? [I'm asking in the context
> of the relatively few lines of kernel code that make up the whole of
> Jail(8)])

virtualization can be fairly complex (vmware, VM) or just complex.  XEN is 
half and half in a way the allows for minimal performance loss.  I hope what 
i've typed above gives one a sense of what XEN is in relation to Hosts and 
Guests.

HTH

Sunny Dubey



From ike  Wed Jan 26 21:23:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:23:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501261859360.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501261859360.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <6D4CE2AD-700A-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hi Alex, All,

Alex, I'm not meaning any of my disagreements/corrections to your 
writing below as a flame, but am hoping, as usual, to engage your 
comments in the most constructive and positive manner possible.

(In short- I like you and generally agree with what you say, but here I 
don't agree with much you said, especailly in the context of my 
original meaning.)

On Jan 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> I don't mean to be confrontational with what folows, seeing as you and
>> I have a decent dialouge with some lively banter, but I gotta ask you
>> to put your money where your mouth is with XEN here man.
>
> <snip>
>> Question:
>>
>> Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can
>> you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?
> Apples and oranges. Xen runs another OS, jail restricts a "root" user 
> to
> less-than-root privileges in a single OS environment OS.

Gotcha.  How is this different than a nicely configured unix group?

> Can't compare
> that. If anything, it is like comparing separation offered by having
> multiple users to a separation offered by having multiple hosts.

So let me get this straight, XEN is not a Virtual Machine whose 
intention is to *completely* separate mutually untrusted users?  How is 
it then really all that fundamentally different than UNIX privilege 
separation, and why then is it self-described as a 'Virtual Machine'?

Is this a misnomer of a title, or am I missing something?

>
>> I'm not sure, but for a BSD based mailing list, I'd think that it 
>> should
>> be clearly stated that you'd be running a NetBSD Virtual Machine 
>> image,
>> running inside of XEN, on a Linux distro?
> And why does it matter for you?

Woah tiger- because I'm thinking about mabye buying some service from 
Sunny, out of interest in exploring what XEN/Sunny has to offer- as I'm 
interested in the tech.  Sorry if my wording sounded inflammatory, but 
this is in the end, a BSD oriented list.

>
>> - Does XEN support VM's of other OS's, or does only NetBSD fit the 
>> bill
>> due to it's rep. for hardware compatability?  (i.e. to meet some funky
>> stuff in the VM?)
> XEN supports lots of things, including windows.

I just read this:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/faq.html#a1.3

  1.3 Which OSes run on Xen?

  To achieve such high performance, Xen requires that OSes are ported to 
run on it. So far we have stable ports of Linux 2.4, Linux 2.6, and 
NetBSD. Ports of FreeBSD and Plan 9 are nearing completion.

  1.4 Does Xen support Microsoft Windows?

  Unfortunately there are no plans to support any versions of Windows in 
the near future. Furthermore, a port of Windows would be encumbered by 
licensing issues. Longer term, virtualisation features in 
next-generation CPUs should make it much easier to support unmodified 
OSes: at that time we will reconsider Windows sup
--

Alex- let me then re-phrase my question to be clearer, in the next 
paragraph:

>
>> - Are there any fundamental differences in how the VM accesses 
>> devices,
>> memory, networking, etc... which is different than in jail(8)'ing or
>> User Mode Linux (UML)?
> Xen is *similar* to UML. Xen is also similar to vmware/bochs. Xen is
> somewhere in the middle between vmware/bochs and UML - in other words,
> explicit support for Xen is necessary for a 'guest OS' (like UML but 
> not
> like vmware) and explicit support for Xen is necessary for host (like
> vmware but not like UML). Those tradeoffs give Xen significant 
> performance
> boost compared to either vmware or UML.

Do other OS's running unmodified, run in a manner which they will meet 
production-level expections for use (espeically in the context of 
internet applications)?


>
>> - How long has XEN existed, and beyond the commercial backing, what 
>> kind
>> of history does XEN have for stability and maturity in 
>> production-level
>> environments, especially large-scale systems running on the public
>> internet?
> Meh. What kind of history does vmware or bochs have? apples to apples,
> please.

I really wasn't referring to vmware or bochs, but was alluding to 
Jail(8)'ing, which has more to do with the overall history of FreeBSD 
itself, (not to shabby a rep for stability/security/performance <g>).

>
>> jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see as
>> an important factor when working with the complexity which arises, in
>> the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating Systems.
> And ridiculously insecure.

Ok, Alex, I hate to call you out, but that statement is a bit 
far-fetched, I have to say, insomuch as your next statement correctly 
summarizes the security context for jail(8),

> If there is a kernel bug in host OS, very high
> chance you can be bitten by it if are running in a jail(8).

you are talking about the security of the Host enviornment, which is 
likewise an issue in an XEN enviornment.

(Additionally, not meaning this to be flame bait here, but seriously 
when was the last time this issue became significant on any BSD OS?  Or 
Linux OS?  I mean this is a whole other discussion.)


> If there is
> local ddos exploit, you will be able to exploit it in jail(8).

What do you mean by local ddos exploit?  Local resource-based attacks 
like fork bombs or memory hogs?

If so, I've not really seen any successful, comprehensive, or easy 
solutions to this problem on ANY platform.  In past posts here 
discussing jail(8)'ing, good strategies using SecureLevels in FreeBSD 
have been discussed, and I'm sure there are many good ways to skin this 
cat on various platforms, in different application contexts- but 
fundamentally local resouce-based attacks problem ALWAYS has been, and 
ALWAYS will be problems which are about 
use/features/freedom/flexibility vs. security.

Because of that, recource-based attacks always need to be addressed in 
the context of a given situation or big-picture enviornment- and NO OS 
platform solves this problem once and for all.  (All of us in Open 
Source UNIX-land, BSD and Linux alike, take for granted that we all 
have such sophisticated and mature tools to help manage these problems 
in various ways IMHO.)

> With Xen,
> to do that, you need to 1) find a bug in guest kernel that would allow 
> you
> to execute code in Xen context 2) find a bug in Xen that would allow 
> you
> to execute code in host context 3) find a bug in host kernel that would
> screw up the machine.

I don't see this as any more or less secure than Jailing, insomuch as I 
believe I've nuked your previous statement about the insecurity of 
jail(8), (in the context of jail(8) being more or less secure based on 
host OS vulnerability- or resource based attacks), but I can speak from 
my own experiences on my philosophy:

Large complex systems are more prone to catastrophic failure.  Simple 
systems can be used effectively to create highly scalable systems, 
which themselves become complex.
Therefore, I see managing complex systems with complex tools as being a 
bad thing, in general.

--
That stated, I see no real difference between eating an 'apple or an 
orange' here, a vulnerability in jail(8) can surface, though to date 
there has been none- (as it is based on time-tested core subsystems, 
chroot, IP aliasing, etc...- built from 'simple' stuff).

I would think that cracking XEN *may* be more plausable, insomuch as 
larger systems are often filled with many sprue edges and forgotten 
pathways...

Additionally, I feel security is enhanced by shared agendas.  In the 
history of computintg, Virtual Machines have always had a relatively 
limited audience, throughout their continued rises and falls in 
popularity over time.

That stated, a few words in support of jail(8)'ing, in the context of 
the expectations for web hosting;  Dedicated systems for machine 
emulation have less developers dedicated to the problem/idea, when 
comparing any of the popularized VM systems to jail(8)'ing- e.g., I'd 
think there are a LOT more people who are concerned that the FreeBSD 
Kernel runs ROCK SOLID, than there are for the whole of the history of 
people involved with virtual machines and emulation systems, (any 
living Kernel, for that matter have more people/resources involved who 
REALLY care).  Same goes for things like the networking stack, which 
ultimately is tied to IP aliasing features, etc... fundamental stuff.

Put directly, there's more people in the world who care about the 
kernel and networking stack in FreeBSD alone (the simple building 
blocks for jail(8)), than the engineering core at Intel and IBM put 
together, (including some actual engineers at Intel and IBM).

--
So, all of that said, I'm a big fan of tying my systems into 
technologies which are supported by resources more vast than I can 
individually comprehend- and have experienced extreme pain when I tie 
myself into any solution whose developer base is proportionally smaller 
than the often large amounts of code they produce.

It seems that my sentiment is echoed quite directly by some folks in 
the Linux world here on KernelTrap,

http://kerneltrap.org/node/3981


>
>> How does XEN help an administrator manage the complexity, and how
>> complex is the actual virtualization mechanism itself?  (i.e. is it a
>> 'large' software like VMWare and the like? [I'm asking in the context 
>> of
>> the relatively few lines of kernel code that make up the whole of
>> Jail(8)])
> You'd be surprised how many lines of kernel code actually deal with 
> "root
> but not really superuser thanks to possibility of being in jail". It is
> not a few.

Ok- for the whole of the *userland* components of Jail(8), yes.  It is 
more than a few, lets get the facts down though:

--
The fundamental Jail(2) call, the actual kernel code which does 
everything here, is merely a small pointer which leverages chroot- 
(which exists as an elementary component in every decent unix I know 
of).
With that, I'm not sure about the size of the source code for jailing, 
but I just scoped out Robert Watson's full from-scratch 
reimplementation of jail(2), which is under 2200 lines, available here:

http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/jailng/

Watson's jailctl utility itself is a 4kb tarball- again, not much code 
in comparison to 2.1 mb tarball of XEN, (which itself is relatively 
small, compared to an entire OS),

The full rewrite code for jail is 64kb, the full uncompressed code for 
Xen is 9.8mb,

XEN is roughly an order of magnitude of between 150-200 times the code 
that goes into Jail(2) and jail(8), on quick glance- so I don't see why 
this is is really worth discussing- technically, Xen is much larger 
than jail(8) altogether.


You do know your stuff, and knowing about you I'd bet you've spent more 
time actually hacking the kernels here than I have, but watch the facts 
(and the sprit of the argument)...  Jail(2) and Jail(8) combined are 
much smaller than all the VM systems I've seen.


>
> Again, apples and oranges. To virtualize a x86 processor takes lots of
> code.

Indeed, agreed on apples vs. oranges.  But, again to re-iterate my 
position on these issues, I'm not meaning to trash-talk Xen, or UML, or 
Linux.  I am meaning to clarify expectations for use, and context- 
especially when dealing with services running on the most hostile and 
bustling network ever, the internet.

Xen, UML, and other virtulizations have other strengths in various 
contexts/cultures that Jail(8) does not.  For instance, the ability to 
run a full kernel, in the context of application and kernel 
development, is pretty insanely cool.  One out of many fundamentally 
different ideas.

It is not however necessary in the context of my managed virtualized 
servers, that my jails have a kernel- and actually is something I 
prefer, in the context of type of app/web development I do.  It's that 
simple- and there really isn't anything you've stated here Alex which 
constructively changes my preference- (though I'm open to change my 
mind if there's something that I'm missing here??)


> -alex
>

Rocket-
.ike




From alex  Wed Jan 26 22:05:57 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:05:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <6D4CE2AD-700A-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> >> Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can
> >> you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?
> > Apples and oranges. Xen runs another OS, jail restricts a "root" user
> > to less-than-root privileges in a single OS environment OS.
> 
> Gotcha.  How is this different than a nicely configured unix group?
It is nothing like it. Compare two different users on same machine to two 
different machines running different operating systems. 

Again, one is not like the other.

> > Can't compare that. If anything, it is like comparing separation
> > offered by having multiple users to a separation offered by having
> > multiple hosts.
> 
> So let me get this straight, XEN is not a Virtual Machine whose
> intention is to *completely* separate mutually untrusted users?  How is
> it then really all that fundamentally different than UNIX privilege
> separation, and why then is it self-described as a 'Virtual Machine'?
Xen *is* a virtual machine whose intention is to completely separate 
mutually untrusted *operating systems!*

<snip - i was wrong about Windows port of Xen>

> >> - Are there any fundamental differences in how the VM accesses
> >> devices, memory, networking, etc... which is different than in
> >> jail(8)'ing or User Mode Linux (UML)?
> > Xen is *similar* to UML. Xen is also similar to vmware/bochs. Xen is
> > somewhere in the middle between vmware/bochs and UML - in other words,
> > explicit support for Xen is necessary for a 'guest OS' (like UML but
> > not like vmware) and explicit support for Xen is necessary for host
> > (like vmware but not like UML). Those tradeoffs give Xen significant
> > performance boost compared to either vmware or UML.
> 
> Do other OS's running unmodified, run in a manner which they will meet
> production-level expections for use (espeically in the context of
> internet applications)?
They *are* modified. Modifications are necessary to gain the highest 
performance under the virtual machine environment.

> >> - How long has XEN existed, and beyond the commercial backing, what
> >> kind of history does XEN have for stability and maturity in
> >> production-level environments, especially large-scale systems running
> >> on the public internet?
> > Meh. What kind of history does vmware or bochs have? apples to apples,
> > please.
> 
> I really wasn't referring to vmware or bochs, but was alluding to
> Jail(8)'ing, which has more to do with the overall history of FreeBSD
> itself, (not to shabby a rep for stability/security/performance <g>).
Apples to oranges, again. You can't compare xen to jail. You just can't. 
Different things. Designed to solve different problems. 

If your problem *can* be solved by jail, and you trust jail enough, use 
jail. Xen is designed to solve a different problem. 

> >> jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see
> >> as an important factor when working with the complexity which arises,
> >> in the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating
> >> Systems.
> > And ridiculously insecure.
> 
> Ok, Alex, I hate to call you out, but that statement is a bit
> far-fetched, I have to say, insomuch as your next statement correctly
> summarizes the security context for jail(8),
> 
> > If there is a kernel bug in host OS, very high chance you can be
> > bitten by it if are running in a jail(8).
> 
> you are talking about the security of the Host enviornment, which is
> likewise an issue in an XEN enviornment.
Yes, but in Xen, you have to hax0r two environments before you can even 
*get* to the Host environment!

> (Additionally, not meaning this to be flame bait here, but seriously
> when was the last time this issue became significant on any BSD OS?  Or
> Linux OS?  I mean this is a whole other discussion.)
> 
> 
> > If there is local ddos exploit, you will be able to exploit it in
> > jail(8).
> 
> What do you mean by local ddos exploit?  Local resource-based attacks
> like fork bombs or memory hogs?
Good example, yes.
> 
> If so, I've not really seen any successful, comprehensive, or easy
> solutions to this problem on ANY platform.  In past posts here
> discussing jail(8)'ing, good strategies using SecureLevels in FreeBSD
> have been discussed, and I'm sure there are many good ways to skin this
> cat on various platforms, in different application contexts- but
> fundamentally local resouce-based attacks problem ALWAYS has been, and
> ALWAYS will be problems which are about use/features/freedom/flexibility
> vs. security.
> 
> Because of that, recource-based attacks always need to be addressed in
> the context of a given situation or big-picture enviornment- and NO OS
> platform solves this problem once and for all.  (All of us in Open
> Source UNIX-land, BSD and Linux alike, take for granted that we all have
> such sophisticated and mature tools to help manage these problems in
> various ways IMHO.)
That's not correct. There are resource-based attacks and there are local 
DDoS exploits and similar. You are vulnerable to both with jail. You are 
not vulnerable to exploits with Xen, (or rather, the only thing local ddos 
exploit on Xen would do is kill your guest instance). 

You are able to use Xen to control damage from resource-based attacks far
more effectively than jail - for example, by telling Xen not to allocate
more than 256M to a given OS, no matter what. You just can't do that with 
jail. 

> > With Xen, to do that, you need to 1) find a bug in guest kernel that
> > would allow you to execute code in Xen context 2) find a bug in Xen
> > that would allow you to execute code in host context 3) find a bug in
> > host kernel that would screw up the machine.
> 
> I don't see this as any more or less secure than Jailing, insomuch as I
> believe I've nuked your previous statement about the insecurity of
> jail(8), (in the context of jail(8) being more or less secure based on
> host OS vulnerability- or resource based attacks), but I can speak from
> my own experiences on my philosophy:
See above.

> Large complex systems are more prone to catastrophic failure.  Simple
> systems can be used effectively to create highly scalable systems, which
> themselves become complex. Therefore, I see managing complex systems
> with complex tools as being a bad thing, in general.
That all depends. All things being equal, I would also prefer a simpler 
system. However, all things are not equal in this case, and Xen gives you 
far more than jail. 

> That stated, I see no real difference between eating an 'apple or an
> orange' here, a vulnerability in jail(8) can surface, though to date
> there has been none- (as it is based on time-tested core subsystems,
> chroot, IP aliasing, etc...- built from 'simple' stuff).
> 
> I would think that cracking XEN *may* be more plausable, insomuch as
> larger systems are often filled with many sprue edges and forgotten
> pathways...
I beg to differ. Jail-related code is *all over* the OS. Every time a root 
privilege is checked, a code-writer needs to think whether one should also 
check for 'root but not superuse'.

> Additionally, I feel security is enhanced by shared agendas.  In the
> history of computintg, Virtual Machines have always had a relatively
> limited audience, throughout their continued rises and falls in
> popularity over time.
Limited for you may mean a general population who can't afford a
VM-capable system wasn't using VM. IBM mainframes *by nature* run VM and
run every OS under VM. (In the above context VM means IBM's virtual
machine environment). All of your credit cards are likely to be processed
by something that runs under a VM.

> That stated, a few words in support of jail(8)'ing, in the context of
> the expectations for web hosting;  Dedicated systems for machine
> emulation have less developers dedicated to the problem/idea, when
> comparing any of the popularized VM systems to jail(8)'ing- e.g., I'd
> think there are a LOT more people who are concerned that the FreeBSD
> Kernel runs ROCK SOLID, than there are for the whole of the history of
> people involved with virtual machines and emulation systems, (any living
> Kernel, for that matter have more people/resources involved who REALLY
> care).  Same goes for things like the networking stack, which ultimately
> is tied to IP aliasing features, etc... fundamental stuff.
I would think that out of all people, BSD users would be loath to equate
popular to good, thus I won't comment on that. And as far as "rock solid",
you have absolutely no idea how much runs under VM environments on
mainframes.

Yes, VM technology on x86 might not be the most mature. But it is the 
Right Thing to do.

> Put directly, there's more people in the world who care about the kernel
> and networking stack in FreeBSD alone (the simple building blocks for
> jail(8)), than the engineering core at Intel and IBM put together,
> (including some actual engineers at Intel and IBM).
Again, you probably have no idea how many people *understand* networking 
stack on BSD (under 100), and how many people work at IBM and Intel 
engineering (under a hundred thousand).

> So, all of that said, I'm a big fan of tying my systems into
> technologies which are supported by resources more vast than I can
> individually comprehend- and have experienced extreme pain when I tie
> myself into any solution whose developer base is proportionally smaller
> than the often large amounts of code they produce.
Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If jail fits your needs, use it. 

<snip>

> >> How does XEN help an administrator manage the complexity, and how
> >> complex is the actual virtualization mechanism itself?  (i.e. is it a
> >> 'large' software like VMWare and the like? [I'm asking in the context
> >> of the relatively few lines of kernel code that make up the whole of
> >> Jail(8)])
> > You'd be surprised how many lines of kernel code actually deal with
> > "root but not really superuser thanks to possibility of being in
> > jail". It is not a few.
> 
> Ok- for the whole of the *userland* components of Jail(8), yes.  It is 
> more than a few, lets get the facts down though:
> 
> The fundamental Jail(2) call, the actual kernel code which does
> everything here, is merely a small pointer which leverages chroot-
> (which exists as an elementary component in every decent unix I know
> of). With that, I'm not sure about the size of the source code for
> jailing, but I just scoped out Robert Watson's full from-scratch
> reimplementation of jail(2), which is under 2200 lines, available here:
> 
> http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/jailng/
This patch does not contain the hooks that are sprinklered all over the 
source code to check for jail-ness. I submit that doing the checking in 
this fashion is unsafe and prone to error. Tomorrow, someone will add a 
syscall to (i dunno, format the harddrive) and check for root, forgetting 
to check for jail'd root.

> XEN is roughly an order of magnitude of between 150-200 times the code
> that goes into Jail(2) and jail(8), on quick glance- so I don't see why
> this is is really worth discussing- technically, Xen is much larger than
> jail(8) altogether.
Apples and oranges. Xen does much more, thus it is necessarily more 
complicated.

> You do know your stuff, and knowing about you I'd bet you've spent more
> time actually hacking the kernels here than I have, but watch the facts
> (and the sprit of the argument)...  Jail(2) and Jail(8) combined are
> much smaller than all the VM systems I've seen.
Of course, because they aren't VM systems. Entirely different things, 
made for entirely different task. I say again, if what you are attempting 
to do can be done with jail, you probably do not want Xen.

> > Again, apples and oranges. To virtualize a x86 processor takes lots of
> > code.
> 
> Indeed, agreed on apples vs. oranges.  But, again to re-iterate my
> position on these issues, I'm not meaning to trash-talk Xen, or UML, or
> Linux.  I am meaning to clarify expectations for use, and context-
> especially when dealing with services running on the most hostile and
> bustling network ever, the internet.
> 
> Xen, UML, and other virtulizations have other strengths in various
> contexts/cultures that Jail(8) does not.  For instance, the ability to
> run a full kernel, in the context of application and kernel development,
> is pretty insanely cool.  One out of many fundamentally different ideas.
> 
> It is not however necessary in the context of my managed virtualized
> servers, that my jails have a kernel- and actually is something I
> prefer, in the context of type of app/web development I do.  It's that
> simple- and there really isn't anything you've stated here Alex which
> constructively changes my preference- (though I'm open to change my mind
> if there's something that I'm missing here??)
When one of your users starts to continuously locally-ddos your machine,
you might change your mind on VMs.

Bottom line is: with jail, you still gotta trust your users not to fuck up
the environment for everyone else. With VMs, you don't have to trust your
users.

-alex




From joshmccormack  Wed Jan 26 22:26:47 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:26:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <41F85F77.5080309@travelersdiary.com>

I knew nothing of XEN before this discussion, but in looking for more 
info, this article seemed pretty good:
http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-10/xen_01.html

Josh


alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can
>>>>you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?

<lots of useful stuff cut...>




From ike  Thu Jan 27 00:04:23 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:04:23 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <200501262025.31742.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<200501250825.58532.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
	<98148AB4-6FF4-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200501262025.31742.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <E940217C-7020-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Sunny,

On Jan 26, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 January 2005 18:47, Agent Smith wrote:
>> Hi Sunny, All,
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:25 AM, Sunny Dubey wrote:
>>> On Monday 24 January 2005 14:33, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>>> Noo!  Please respond on-list, I'd like to know too!
>>>
>>> I can provide virtualized NetBSD hosting.  You log in as root do
>>> whatever you
>>> want, run your own networking firewalls, etc etc etc.  This is *not*
>>> jail()
>>> or any jail() derivative, it is something more powerful/flexible
>>> called XEN.
>>
>> I don't mean to be confrontational with what folows, seeing as you and
>> I have a decent dialouge with some lively banter, but I gotta ask you
>> to put your money where your mouth is with XEN here man.
>>
>
> nothing is confrontational .... (not until we have our Matrix style 
> fight
> involving flying, guns, and the 'truth' .. lol)

Next nyc*bug meeting- flying 30 ft. above the stairway at apple...  
lets rumble...

>
>> I never think it's fair to say one thing is more or less
>> powerful/flexible than another, and of course, your bound to meet
>> resistance pimping a Linux based product on a BSD mailing list <g>.
>>
>
> Linux based yes, but the end result is a pure NetBSD experience for 
> the end
> user.  The user will watch his/her the NetBSD kernel boot up, the user 
> will
> log into a NetBSD system with NetBSD libraries and NetBSD tools.

This is pretty darned fascinating, I gotta say.

>
> In that sense, its very much like IBM's VM product.  IBM sells their 
> z-Series
> with the ability to run many linux instances all at once.  (Well, its 
> a bit
> more complicated than that, but this is long story short).  People 
> don't care
> for the s390 architecture too much, nor do they care about VM ... they 
> just
> want to run as many linux'es as they want for whatever reason they 
> want (Once
> again, we'd have to start talking about things liked "partitioned 
> hardware"
> to get any real meat into this XEN/VM comparsion discussion)

Right.

>
> XEN is essentially a linux machine.  If you lock down the linux 
> machine good
> enough (IE: no open ports, except for SSH on an off port), it becomes 
> just as
> secure as any other machine from an external point of view.  (Internal
> security is an entire subject of its own.  But unlike UML, exploiting 
> the
> virtualized kernel in XEN does not give you privileges on the host.)

Ok- that's quite cool and interesting as well.  How does it work?  I.E. 
if a cracker exploits a virtualized kernel, does XEN keep some kind of 
jail-like process tree?  (i.e. does the kernel itself then die as a 
chrooted process or somesuch?)  Or does a process have a life beyond 
the XEN'd process tree?

>
> So in the end, whether is a linux based product or not is somewhat 
> irrelevant.

Well, that's a matter of preference and opinion, (i.e. not worth you 
and I going there now <g>), but your point is well taken...

> Its all about the stability of the guest OS and the dedication of the
> developers of the guest OS to maintain and support the port of 
> whatever guest
> OS.  (in this case the guest OS is Netbsd:  
> http://netbsd.org/Ports/xen/ )

Gotcha.

>
>>
>> --
>> Question:
>>
>> Sunny- for the purposes of the archive for this BSD oriented list, can
>> you please explain *why* XEN is more powerful/flexible than jail(8)?
>>
>
> Because you are booting the kernel, and have full control of *almost
> everything* once inside the kernel.
>
> I could easily compile 13 different NetBSD kernels each with a 
> different patch
> and boot them all at once to do mass testing.  It really doesn't get 
> easier
> than that.

Ok- again, like our conversations before re. UML compared to jail(8), 
I'd come to similar conclusions here?  I.E. each system has strengths 
and weakness in a given context.  That said, I can't think of many 
applications where I'd *want* different kernels on a VM cluster for 
webservers?

Sunny, you do a lot of this, have you run into any specific instances 
of applications/requirements where you need different kernels running 
on the net from the same box?  (Aside from development which is all 
about some core kernel-level dev, I'm talking about Application here).  
I'm really trying to come up with a use case that challenges my own 
practices here...  (which leads to the stripped-down homogeny of 
jailing)...

>
> Additionally (as Marc had suggest) I could booth 13 differnet NetBSD 
> installs
> each with a different ipf/pf/etc script and try tinkering with the 
> networking
> till my face was blue, heh.  This includes control of ICMP, etc

Ok- this is one use case, but still on the dev. side- I'm talking 
micro-complexity in production baby...

>
>> I'm not sure, but for a BSD based mailing list, I'd think that it
>> should be clearly stated that you'd be running a NetBSD Virtual 
>> Machine
>> image, running inside of XEN, on a Linux distro?
>>
>
> its inside XEN with is running on a linux distro.  But as stated 
> above, its
> not entirely important.

Right, not from the hostee's perspective, somewhat irrelevant.  But 
from the .ike perspective, (licensing, stability, security, man page 
gripes) I'll choose not to comment until we can both come at each other 
matrix style etc... <g>

>
>> --
>> Additional Questions:
>>
>> - Does XEN support VM's of other OS's, or does only NetBSD fit the 
>> bill
>> due to it's rep. for hardware compatability?  (i.e. to meet some funky
>> stuff in the VM?)
>
> XEN can support any OS, but that OS must be ported to the 'XEN 
> architecture'.
> Currently this includes linux and NetBSD, with FreeBSD support coming 
> along
> the way.  And being that OpenBSD folks don't take it seriously.

/me waits for the day when I can run jail(8)s inside of one of Sunny's 
Xen boxen...

>
> XEN itself is currently limited to x86 and amd64.  There are no plans 
> of
> changing this.  (intel and AMD apparently have people looking into XEN 
> to
> ensure that it will work with whatever emt64/amd64 hardware 
> partitioning
> exists in the future.  I guess they want to compete with IBM's
> VM/s390/zSeries combination *shrug*)
>
> The following is a bit on the super technical side, and so I could 
> easily be
> wrong ....
>
> buuuutt I'm going to try anyways
>
> lets suppose NetBSD has a foobar() syscall.  Implementing foobar() on 
> x86
> requires different code than ppc64, obviously.  on x86 foobar() pretty 
> much
> needs MMU support and nothing more.  But on ppc64 foobar() not only 
> needs MMU
> support, but it can take advantage of other ppc64 target features.  So 
> two
> sets of code is written for foobar().
>
> XEN is the same sorta target.  If I as a NetBSD developer wanted 
> foobar() on
> XEN, I would have to write code to this 'XEN architecture'.
>
> I believe this is the way it works.

Makes sense, more or less- and really pretty damn interesting.

>
>>
>> - Are there any fundamental differences in how the VM accesses 
>> devices,
>> memory, networking, etc... which is different than in jail(8)'ing or
>> User Mode Linux (UML)?
>>
>
> I'm not too keen on the details with jail(8), and UML to some extent 
> is a bit
> different than XEN.  But suffice to say, Alex's answer is some what on 
> the
> mark.  XEN creates a quasi-architecture, that the host needs to provide
> support for, as well as the guest OSes need to support.

Dig- dug.

>
>> - How long has XEN existed, and beyond the commercial backing, what
>> kind of history does XEN have for stability and maturity in
>> production-level environments, especially large-scale systems running
>> on the public internet?
>>
>
> apparently XEN has existed for 3 years, but I have to admit a whole 
> bunch of
> us didn't give it much thought till sometime mid-last year.  Redhat 
> and SuSE
> are working to integrate XEN into their distros.  (Mandrake has me! 
> haha)
> IBM stands behind it (I suppose they too are aware that efficient
> virtualization will soon be a commoddity product).  Intel and AMD stand
> behind it, largely for their own CPU partitioning schemes.
>
> There is also XenSource which is a company that supports the code base 
> and
> such.

That's very cool.

>
>> - How does XEN fundamentally work?  I have read the XEN virtual 
>> machine
>> papers, available here,
>>
>> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/performance.html
>>
>> but it only seems to cover like systems- and seems to be focused
>> primarily on performance (an issue with classical emulation systems).
>>
>
> XEN works by creating a quasi-architecture on top x86.  So the amount 
> of work
> needed to port an x86 friendly OS is very little.  And none of the 
> userland
> libraries and tools have to be touched at all to work out-of-the-box.

'Nod.

>
>> jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see as
>> an important factor when working with the complexity which arises, in
>> the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating Systems.
>> How does XEN help an administrator manage the complexity,
>
> xen comes with a control panel app and was built with mass hosting in 
> mind.
> This I suppose is the single and biggest reason why people are so much 
> more
> interested in it than the traditional UML.  The traditional UML was a 
> more of
> hack'ish sorta thing in which everyone wrote their own tools for and 
> such.

EEEWwwwww... Like GUI?  :/

>
>> and how
>> complex is the actual virtualization mechanism itself?  (i.e. is it a
>> 'large' software like VMWare and the like? [I'm asking in the context
>> of the relatively few lines of kernel code that make up the whole of
>> Jail(8)])
>
> virtualization can be fairly complex (vmware, VM) or just complex.  
> XEN is
> half and half in a way the allows for minimal performance loss.  I 
> hope what
> i've typed above gives one a sense of what XEN is in relation to Hosts 
> and
> Guests.
>
> HTH
>
> Sunny Dubey

Yo Sunny, thanks for the informative and thoughtful answers.  I'm still 
not giving up jail(8) any time soon for my needs in production-level, 
redundancy oriented, internet service; actually makes me cling to 
jailing even harder, HOWEVER, this is some insanely cool tech. man- and 
I believe I'm now a sideline fan of Xen alltogether- for whatever 
that's worth as we all proceed doing our thing...

Rocket-
.ike





From pete  Thu Jan 27 00:25:54 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:25:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 4.11-RELEASE
Message-ID: <20050127052554.GA23589@finn.nomadlogic.org>

hey folks 4.11-RELEASE is out, and avail via bittorrent.
i've been running a client for a bit, and this may be a
good opportunity to give something to back to the FBSD
community if you've been looking for a chance to turn a
good deed.  here is a link to the torrent file:

http://people.freebsd.org/~kensmith/4.11-torrent/

i'll post a quick howto to our library soon.  ok have
fun!

-pete  
 

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From john  Thu Jan 27 02:50:26 2005
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:50:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <41F85F77.5080309@travelersdiary.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<41F85F77.5080309@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <200501270250.31116.john@unixen.org>

On Wednesday 26 January 2005 10:26 pm, Josh McCormack wrote:
> I knew nothing of XEN before this discussion, but in looking for more
> info, this article seemed pretty good:
> http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-10/xen_01.html

Googling for Xen yielded that article up front after Sunny posted, and 
would have saved everyone a chunck of time. Google! baby. Alex was 
originally right about the Windows port, if the reference was to its 
existence. Googling around it is clear it once existed; the Cambridge 
developers apparently have pulled it, and claim non-support now in the 
site docs. That's apparently so out of decorum, and commonsense, to 
wit, MS is a sponsor according to the site, secondly, you do not want 
to be a vector to litigation against yourself if you can help it, i.e., 
a claim for aiding unauthorized, unlicensed Win* instances.

	John




From john  Thu Jan 27 03:19:32 2005
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 03:19:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] McKusick Book
In-Reply-To: <20050126235615.GM26723@metm.org>
References: <20050126235615.GM26723@metm.org>
Message-ID: <200501270319.32146.john@unixen.org>

On Wednesday 26 January 2005 06:56 pm, marco at metm.org wrote:
> So I'm wondering if someone has a copy I could borrow for a semester
> ?
>
> Sorry if this request is out of place or annoying,

Pu-leeee-ze. Not at all. Am surprised it is not in our library. I'd 
check it out after your term work, if so. :-)

	John




From steve  Thu Jan 27 11:07:35 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:07:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gforge
Message-ID: <41F911C7.1070808@n2sw.com>

hi all, is anybody on this list running gforge on a bsd box, am looking 
for pointers, are there are about 3 levels of reqs.


thanx





From pete  Thu Jan 27 13:18:59 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:18:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gforge
In-Reply-To: <41F911C7.1070808@n2sw.com>
References: <41F911C7.1070808@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <20050127181859.GB51885@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:07:35AM -0500, steve wrote:
> hi all, is anybody on this list running gforge on a bsd box, am looking 
> for pointers, are there are about 3 levels of reqs.
> 

this is actually the first i've seen this app.  looks pretty interesting,
according to the gforge.org site it looks like all the componets are
standard unix daemons/langs (pgsql, php, python, jabber...).  I am not 
sure what the GForge app is written in, is it Php or python by any chance?

it does look like a nice package tho....

-pete


> 
> thanx
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From ike  Thu Jan 27 13:20:47 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:20:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gforge
In-Reply-To: <20050127181859.GB51885@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <41F911C7.1070808@n2sw.com>
	<20050127181859.GB51885@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <2A3A8B03-7090-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 27, 2005, at 1:18 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 11:07:35AM -0500, steve wrote:
>> hi all, is anybody on this list running gforge on a bsd box, am 
>> looking
>> for pointers, are there are about 3 levels of reqs.
>>
>
> this is actually the first i've seen this app.  looks pretty 
> interesting,
> according to the gforge.org site it looks like all the componets are
> standard unix daemons/langs (pgsql, php, python, jabber...).  I am not
> sure what the GForge app is written in, is it Php or python by any 
> chance?
>
> it does look like a nice package tho....
>
> -pete

Tha' heck is it?

Rocket-
.ike





From lists  Thu Jan 27 13:34:53 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:34:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
Message-ID: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>

No library card needed to check these articles!

Web Services on FreeBSD
http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=82

Running bittorrent on FreeBSD
http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=86


-- 
---



From bschonhorst  Thu Jan 27 13:55:57 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:55:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Email hosting companies?
Message-ID: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>

Any suggestions for companies that do email hosting.  At this point I 
don't need any other services, just somewhere to catch a domain's 
email, provide a decent webmail interface, and POP access.  A BSD 
friendly company would be cool.

BTW-  Thanks to the authors who submitted the new articles (Michael, 
Pete)


-brad




From george  Thu Jan 27 14:01:05 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:01:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Email hosting companies?
In-Reply-To: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
References: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <1db7140743fceb16cbb1be36fc6bbb17@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

> Any suggestions for companies that do email hosting.  At this point I 
> don't need any other services, just somewhere to catch a domain's 
> email, provide a decent webmail interface, and POP access.  A BSD 
> friendly company would be cool.
>
> BTW-  Thanks to the authors who submitted the new articles (Michael, 
> Pete)
>

There's a number of providers on this list. . . but I'll mention the 
one I use for my corp mail. . . Bruno at Biz Integrators/Loftmail. . . 
(no slight to the others. . .)

g




From ike  Thu Jan 27 14:03:36 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:03:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Email hosting companies?
In-Reply-To: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
References: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <25B87802-7096-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 27, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

> Any suggestions for companies that do email hosting.  At this point I 
> don't need any other services, just somewhere to catch a domain's 
> email, provide a decent webmail interface, and POP access.  A BSD 
> friendly company would be cool.

Bruno of nyc*bug just split off their old bizintegrators email service 
to a company of it's own,

http://www.loftmail.com/

I've been using their stuff (under bizintegrators) for quite some time 
now and It's just straight solid service- highly recommend it, and 
trust my clients to it- (more importantly, I trust my friends to it).

I believe there's others who do mail hosting on list too here.

Rocket-
.ike




From spork  Thu Jan 27 14:43:04 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:43:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Email hosting companies?
In-Reply-To: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
References: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501271440230.519@oof.local>

One of my fine clients, bway.net, offers some nice email packages. 
Self-admin available, webmail with all the bells and whistles, ssl on 
pop/imap/smtp, spamass, clamav, etc. etc.  15/3 backup cycle.  All run on 
FreeBSD.  Next to Panix, we're probably the longest running ISP left in 
NYC.  We have no queues on our phone system, just call and get a human.

Thanks,

Charles

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Brad Schonhorst wrote:

> Any suggestions for companies that do email hosting.  At this point I don't 
> need any other services, just somewhere to catch a domain's email, provide a 
> decent webmail interface, and POP access.  A BSD friendly company would be 
> cool.
>
> BTW-  Thanks to the authors who submitted the new articles (Michael, Pete)
>
>
> -brad
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From dan  Thu Jan 27 14:54:07 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:54:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Email hosting companies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501271440230.519@oof.local>
References: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
Message-ID: <41F9008F.718.32749DDE@localhost>

On 27 Jan 2005 at 14:43, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> 15/3 backup cycle.

What is a 15/3 backup cycle?
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/




From george  Thu Jan 27 14:59:52 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:59:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
In-Reply-To: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <20050127195952.GD6744@run>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 01:34:53PM -0500, michael wrote:
>No library card needed to check these articles!

Did we ever work out a library policy? Or is it on a per request basis?
I need one cute girl to read me technical books...

>Web Services on FreeBSD
>http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=82

Thanks Michael!

>Running bittorrent on FreeBSD
>http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=86

Pete, bittorrent has always seemed too good to be true (try),
thanks for the easy doc!

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From pete  Thu Jan 27 15:03:19 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:03:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan't wait
Message-ID: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>

i'm so clever with my subject lines.  seriously tho
i can't wait for bsdcan this year, so i've started to
think about getting time off work, booking a flight
and hotel rooms.  boy i hope the speaker list is good
this year dan ;^)  i think this year it may be fun
to try to book a nycbug room(s) where we can setup 
a LAN and maybe do a little hacking for the con.  what
do you all think?


-pete 


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From ike  Thu Jan 27 15:04:37 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:04:37 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
In-Reply-To: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
References: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
Message-ID: <ABE3509E-709E-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 27, 2005, at 1:34 PM, michael wrote:

> No library card needed to check these articles!
>
> Web Services on FreeBSD
> http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=82
>
> Running bittorrent on FreeBSD
> http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=86

THANKS GUYS!!!

Rocket-
.ike





From pete  Thu Jan 27 15:13:21 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:13:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
In-Reply-To: <20050127195952.GD6744@run>
References: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<20050127195952.GD6744@run>
Message-ID: <20050127201321.GB52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>


On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 02:59:52PM -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 01:34:53PM -0500, michael wrote:
> > 
> >Web Services on FreeBSD
> >http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=82
> 
> Thanks Michael!
> 

yea michael that's awesome!


> >Running bittorrent on FreeBSD
> >http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Library&SUBM=86
> 
> Pete, bittorrent has always seemed too good to be true (try),
> thanks for the easy doc!

no problem, sorry if the directions are a little incoherent,
i wrote them up quickly at the end of my shift last night...
but i'm sure everyone on the list get's the gist of what to do.

hopefully this will start a trend of folks on the list just 
throwing something up quickly, i think our library could become
a great resource.

-p

> 
> // George
> 
> 
> -- 
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From pete  Thu Jan 27 15:16:09 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:16:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] insecure perl port?
Message-ID: <20050127201609.GC52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>

hey has anyone been following this on the list:

(from my nightly portaudit)
Affected package: perl-5.8.5
Type of problem: perl -- File::Path insecure file/directory permissions.
Reference: <http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/portaudit/c418d472-6bd1-11d9-93ca-000a95bc6fae.html>

(now i won't tell you which box this on..sorry ;)
i've checked the reference URL and didn't find any more info,
and it does not seem that the port's tree has been updated
to fix this yet (atleast it wasn't a little while ago).  any
ideas?

-pete

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From ike  Thu Jan 27 15:25:54 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:25:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] insecure perl port?
In-Reply-To: <20050127201609.GC52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050127201609.GC52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <A5023ABA-70A1-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Pete Wright wrote:

> any
> ideas?

Python?

/me ducks to miss flying projectiles for that one

Rocket-
.ike





From tux  Thu Jan 27 15:41:38 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:41:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Sexy FreeBSD Wallpaper
Message-ID: <004f01c504b0$99cde550$6400a8c0@olympus>

I came across this somewhere and figured it would look good as my wallpaper:

http://unixfun.net/FreeBSD_Chick.png

(Dru: No offense, but you probably wouldn't be interested in it :)



From spork  Thu Jan 27 15:55:13 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:55:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Email hosting companies?
In-Reply-To: <41F9008F.718.32749DDE@localhost>
References: <80d355cbb76953886720de014974ba67@vcsnyc.org>
	<41F9008F.718.32749DDE@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0501271554500.519@oof.local>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 27 Jan 2005 at 14:43, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> 15/3 backup cycle.
>
> What is a 15/3 backup cycle?

Something I made up. :)

Full level 0 every 15 days, incremental every 3 days...

C

> -- 
> Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
> BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/
>
>



From tux  Thu Jan 27 16:04:00 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:04:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
References: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<20050127195952.GD6744@run>
Message-ID: <007901c504b3$b99fc580$6400a8c0@olympus>

: I need one cute girl to read me technical books...

If you find one, see if she has a sister for me :)



From tillman  Thu Jan 27 16:33:14 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:33:14 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] insecure perl port?
In-Reply-To: <A5023ABA-70A1-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050127201609.GC52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<A5023ABA-70A1-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050127213314.GN46047@seekingfire.com>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 03:25:54PM -0500, Isaac Levy wrote:
> On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:16 PM, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> >any
> >ideas?
> 
> Python?
> 
> /me ducks to miss flying projectiles for that one

Heat-seeking nerf gun projective ;-)

I recently ran across this on nntp://alt.humor.best-of-usenet:

> > Never write it in 'C' if you can do it in 'awk';
> > Never do it in 'awk' if 'sed' can handle it;
> > Never use 'sed' when 'tr' can do the job;
> > Never invoke 'tr' when 'cat' is sufficient;
> > Avoid using 'cat' whenever possible.
> > --Taylor's Laws of Programming
> Just use Perl.
> -- Larry's Law

Made my day.

-T


-- 
"I'd like to see distributing timesharing, so that all these people with
 *way* too much time on their hands could donate some to us people with
 sensible projects to complete but not enough time."
    -- Anonymous Coward posting on Slashdot



From ike  Thu Jan 27 16:37:40 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:37:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] insecure perl port?
In-Reply-To: <20050127213314.GN46047@seekingfire.com>
References: <20050127201609.GC52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<A5023ABA-70A1-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<20050127213314.GN46047@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <AB8A68BA-70AB-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Sorry for the continuation of tangent,

On Jan 27, 2005, at 4:33 PM, Tillman Hodgson wrote:

> I recently ran across this on nntp://alt.humor.best-of-usenet:
>
>>> Never write it in 'C' if you can do it in 'awk';
>>> Never do it in 'awk' if 'sed' can handle it;
>>> Never use 'sed' when 'tr' can do the job;
>>> Never invoke 'tr' when 'cat' is sufficient;
>>> Avoid using 'cat' whenever possible.
>>> --Taylor's Laws of Programming
>> Just use Perl.
>> -- Larry's Law
>
> Made my day.

LOL.  Mine here too- thx.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Thu Jan 27 16:56:25 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:56:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <4A4BF5B9-70AE-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Alex, All,

Based on what Sunny wrote last night, I'm now a big sideline fan of 
Xen, but for the record I believe I need to clarify some of the facts 
here, for the record.

Alex- I don't want to make this a confrontational thread, because I 
find this new tech all really interesting- so I'll just disregard the 
stuff that feels disrespectful to me from your last post, and I'm sorry 
if I came off as disrespectful in my last post to you.
The hair on my back does however raise when I get slapped with what 
sound like absolutist imperatives by folks I don't know too well, for 
things which are fairly abstract.  That's all.

>> I'd think that it should
>> be clearly stated that you'd be running a NetBSD Virtual Machine 
>> image,
>> running inside of XEN, on a Linux distro?
> And why does it matter for you?

>> Same goes for things like the networking stack, which ultimately
>> is tied to IP aliasing features, etc... fundamental stuff.
> I would think that out of all people, BSD users would be loath to 
> equate
> popular to good, thus I won't comment on that.

Notably, with regard to my obviously BSD slanted sentiment, THIS IS A 
BSD TECH LIST.  Quit it.
It's my business if I like the BSD's, and BSD licensing, and Alex, you 
need to not get so uppity about a slant TOWARDS the BSD's here.  In the 
right context, I'd love to discuss Linux design implementation in 
contrast to the BSD's, as well as GPL vs. BSD in practice, BUT- note 
that I'm talking about tech in both of the above snippets- and I don't 
care to slip into *these* kinds of discussions indiscriminately, (or at 
least until we both have a fair amount of vodka in us, face to face 
<g>).

> Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If jail fits your needs, use it.
It's not about that- we all are doing that anyhow- the spirit of my 
previous mail is about discussing these fascinating technologies here.

Sunny and I have a long-standing sparring dialogue based on mutual 
respect, seeing as he and I both are junkies for running virtualized 
OS'es- so I hope our banter wasn't interpreted as anything actually 
confrontational.  (guess I'll try to throw my punches at Sunny in 
private from now on.
[btw- sunny- schoolyard- 3pm- tomorrow- be there] :)


-------------------
That out of the way, Alex, on the technical side I believe you have 
simply mis-represented some of the facts about jailing, so I'm going to 
try to set things straight, and put the code where my mouth is for this 
archived list.  I'll keep my words on Xen to a minimum, insomuch as 
it's totally new to me, but jailing, is not.  On to the fun stuff;


DESIGN SEMANTICS
--
With regard to features and 'better, worse, secure', Alex made some 
pretty bold statements, yet I still have no solid evidence of anything 
other than this:
Xen and jail() simply come at the same problem with different tools, 
from different directions:

Xen's intended scope seems more all-inclusive for the task at hand, 
while the intended scope of jailing is built to leverage existing 
userland tools;

On Jan 26, 2005, at 10:05 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
>> Jail(2) and Jail(8) combined are
>> much smaller than all the VM systems I've seen.
> Of course, because they aren't VM systems.

I'd argue, for the technical record online with the archive of this 
thread, that Jailing is an kernel/OS-based VM, and that Xen is an 
emulator-based VM.  I say this because various VM schemes are all based 
around 1 idea- providing full OS-level access to mutually untrusted 
uses/processes.
Virtual Machine =! Emulator, IMHO.

> Xen *is* a virtual machine whose intention is to completely separate
> mutually untrusted *operating systems!*

Understood now, and in the context of web services, (something you, 
Sunny, and I all do for a living in various contexts), don't we all 
meet the same end goal with both Xen and jail(8)?

>> I really wasn't referring to vmware or bochs, but was alluding to
>> Jail(8)'ing, which has more to do with the overall history of FreeBSD
>> itself, (not to shabby a rep for stability/security/performance <g>).
> Apples to oranges, again. You can't compare xen to jail. You just 
> can't.
> Different things. Designed to solve different problems.

Seems like- but then what I'm still wondering is, what are the Xen 
advantages when applied to hosting common internet applications?

> If your problem *can* be solved by jail, and you trust jail enough, use
> jail. Xen is designed to solve a different problem.

What different problem?!

I can discuss the implementation for the problem Jailing was designed 
to solve, perhaps somebody could contrast it with Xen's purpose:

 From McKusick's latest book (http://www.mckusick.com/FreeBSDbook.html),

'Two important goals of the jail implementation are to:

1. Retain the semantics of the existing discretionary access-control 
mechanisms

2. Allow each jail to have it's own superuser administrator whose 
activities are limited to the processes, files, and network associated 
with it's jail'

The implimentation scope is actually so small it's really only got 
these two stated design goals, (which themselves are 
dissected/discussed/scrubbed fairly extensively).

>> Do other OS's running unmodified, run in a manner which they will meet
>> production-level expections for use (espeically in the context of
>> internet applications)?
> They *are* modified. Modifications are necessary to gain the highest
> performance under the virtual machine environment.

This all makes sense now- but it still doesn't answer my question, 
(though Sunny basically did),

If I have Xen basics straight, I'm still wondering if the modifications 
are simply a performance-gain issue; do they affect production-level 
expectations (perhaps expectations for use in common internet 
services/applications)?

It seems to me, as Sunny and I had discussed long ago, that Linux VM 
systems really need a Kernel available to the instances more than the 
BSD's, because so much is done in Linux through the Kernel- whereas the 
converse is true across the BSD's, where much more is accomplished 
through userland tools and subsystems (if not userland, at least 
subsystems which aren't in the kernel).


>> That stated, I see no real difference between eating an 'apple or an
>> orange' here, a vulnerability in jail(8) can surface, though to date
>> there has been none- (as it is based on time-tested core subsystems,
>> chroot, IP aliasing, etc...- built from 'simple' stuff).
>>
>> I would think that cracking XEN *may* be more plausable, insomuch as
>> larger systems are often filled with many sprue edges and forgotten
>> pathways...
> I beg to differ. Jail-related code is *all over* the OS. Every time a 
> root
> privilege is checked, a code-writer needs to think whether one should 
> also
> check for 'root but not superuse'.

Are you absolutely certain that the code you are referring to is not 
the foundation for chroot?  In BSD's other than FreeBSD, jail is often 
vocabulary used to discribe chrooted processes- (esp. in the OpenBSD 
scene).

I'll be totally happy to stand down corrected, but at this point, I'm 
going to need to see some examples in the kernel source- and have 
started poking around...

To my knowledge, after looking up/browsing the source for regular jail, 
it's even smaller than I'd thought,

contents of /usr/src/usr.sbin/jail

    161B May  8  2003 Makefile
     14K Jan  2  2002 jail.8
      3K Jan  2  2002 jail.c

To my knowledge, that's all there is to jailing, so that's under 16 kb 
in source code- (again, vs. the 9.2 mb of Xen- so we're actually at the 
magnitude of about 580 times the code, give or take, for the record.)

-
Now, diving deeper into the source, I can't find the jaill-related code 
which you state is *all-over*.

I found about 550 references to jail, mostly contained in the files 
mentioned above, and some strewn about in the chroot code, in the 
source for PS, expected places-  but haven't taken the time to 
investigate *too* deeply (but did find a cute EPS diagram which grep 
ripped 'jail' out of).

Alex- can you point out the type of example you speak of here, or else 
drop this point, because I believe you are wrong?

An example of why I believe you are wrong, one example below,

/usr/src/bin/ps/print.c line 237,

      cp++;
      if (!(flag & P_INMEM))
           *cp++ = 'W';
      if (p->p_nice < NZERO)
           *cp++ = '<';
      else if (p->p_nice > NZERO)
           *cp++ = 'N';
      if (flag & P_TRACED)
           *cp++ = 'X';
      if (flag & P_WEXIT && p->p_stat != SZOMB)
           *cp++ = 'E';
      if (flag & P_PPWAIT)
           *cp++ = 'V';
      if ((flag & P_SYSTEM) || p->p_lock > 0)
           *cp++ = 'L';
      if (KI_EPROC(k)->e_flag & EPROC_SLEADER)
           *cp++ = 's';
      if ((flag & P_CONTROLT) && KI_EPROC(k)->e_pgid == 
KI_EPROC(k)->e_tpgid)
           *cp++ = '+';
 >>>> if (flag & P_JAILED) 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
           *cp++ = 'J';
      *cp = '\0';
      (void)printf("%-*s", v->width, buf);
}

Well in PS, this makes a heck of a lot of sense, but not from the 
perspective of a hole as you describe, but in the way which jails are 
restricted from particular low-level calls, like the calls ps would 
make to page memory/cpu for processes.

So this patch is to make ps function within the contextual confines of 
a jail, for practical purposes, and trying to modify this would just 
break ps for the jail (an inconvenient problem, for sure)..

<Total sidenote- top does not work in jails out of the box, for the 
this very reason, (paging memory) and this gives me a nice lead to 
actually get around to hacking a patch to make top work in jails- what 
a convienence that'd be... (but talk is cheap, so I digress)...>

Alex- show me the code.  I'm willing to step down on this issue, but 
currently believe I am correct, and it's worth stating it here to not 
do any disservice to jailing.

>> Xen is much larger than
>> jail(8) altogether.
> Apples and oranges. Xen does much more, thus it is necessarily more
> complicated.

Understood in the context of the scope of the systems.

So apples and oranges, yes- and the implimentation differences are 
understood in context.

But I'll continue with the parts that make it all common fruit of a 
particular scale and form, (it's not size that matters, really)...



SECURITY CONCERNS
--
>>>> jail(8) is fundamentally ridiculously simple by design, which I see
>>>> as an important factor when working with the complexity which 
>>>> arises,
>>>> in the context of virtualizing services as complex as Operating
>>>> Systems.
>>> And ridiculously insecure.
>>
>> Ok, Alex, I hate to call you out, but that statement is a bit
>> far-fetched, I have to say, insomuch as your next statement correctly
>> summarizes the security context for jail(8),
>>
>>> If there is a kernel bug in host OS, very high chance you can be
>>> bitten by it if are running in a jail(8).
>>
>> you are talking about the security of the Host enviornment, which is
>> likewise an issue in an XEN enviornment.
> Yes, but in Xen, you have to hax0r two environments before you can even
> *get* to the Host environment!

That point not understood on this end of the wire, here's why:  If a 
cracker gets through the Xen enviornment and into the host, how is the 
host *not* then compromised?  I mean, it's still all the same hardware, 
still the same system.
I would additionally argue that a hole *could* be burrowed right 
through the OS instance, (I'd start digging at the kernel mods for Xen 
modified system calls)- and burrow straight into the host OS, precisely 
the same threat model that jail(2) faces.  Layers in between don't 
matter, big picture of this complexity, it's still the same hardware.

(/me opens the door for Sunny here hoping he'll pipe in with some words 
on yummy hardware separation tech?)


>>> If there is local ddos exploit, you will be able to exploit it in
>>> jail(8).
>>
>> What do you mean by local ddos exploit?  Local resource-based attacks
>> like fork bombs or memory hogs?
> Good example, yes.
>>
>> If so, I've not really seen any successful, comprehensive, or easy
>> solutions to this problem on ANY platform.  In past posts here
>> discussing jail(8)'ing, good strategies using SecureLevels in FreeBSD
>> have been discussed, and I'm sure there are many good ways to skin 
>> this
>> cat on various platforms, in different application contexts- but
>> fundamentally local resouce-based attacks problem ALWAYS has been, and
>> ALWAYS will be problems which are about 
>> use/features/freedom/flexibility
>> vs. security.
>>
>> Because of that, recource-based attacks always need to be addressed in
>> the context of a given situation or big-picture enviornment- and NO OS
>> platform solves this problem once and for all.  (All of us in Open
>> Source UNIX-land, BSD and Linux alike, take for granted that we all 
>> have
>> such sophisticated and mature tools to help manage these problems in
>> various ways IMHO.)

> That's not correct.

Can you tell me *why* my abstract opinion presented, is not correct?

With both Xen or Jail(8), restricting resources, is, restricting 
resources.
Or is there something I'm missing here?

>> It is not however necessary in the context of my managed virtualized
>> servers, that my jails have a kernel- and actually is something I
>> prefer, in the context of type of app/web development I do.  It's that
>> simple- and there really isn't anything you've stated here Alex which
>> constructively changes my preference- (though I'm open to change my 
>> mind
>> if there's something that I'm missing here??)
> When one of your users starts to continuously locally-ddos your 
> machine,
> you might change your mind on VMs.

Do you now mean network-based DDoS over the local network or localhost? 
  Would this not be mitigated by running various forms of bandwidth 
shaping and packet filtering, thoughtfully taking into consideration 
communications between abstracted interfaces?  (I've worked in big jail 
clusters which were NAT'd on the host server, routing was very modular, 
controllable, predictable... well worth the added overhead and 
complexity...)




PRACTICAL JAILING FEATURES
--

Ok, so to totally put a halt to the FUD about features here, and after 
reading up on Xen, I don't see any features which are not covered when 
running jails.  Here's why:

> You are able to use Xen to control damage from resource-based attacks 
> far
> more effectively than jail - for example, by telling Xen not to 
> allocate
> more than 256M to a given OS, no matter what. You just can't do that 
> with
> jail.

Actually, yes- you can do this with jailed systems, though it's done 
differently, insomuch as the scope of jailing as a whole is totally 
different, it leverages basic, time-tested, expendable, replacable unix 
utilities to cover the features which Xen provides for itself.  There  
is no 'can't do' anything here, basic examples would be:

FreeBSD 4.x

- master system running securelevel 0
   (securelevel first appeared as init utility in Version 6 AT&T UNIX)

	- chflags to lock down processes in good ol' login.conf
        by making it immutable (root is really root inside a jail)

	* caveat, securelevel 0 is a restriction which can make
	things surprisingly painful in common use scenarios...

	* Un-caveat!, FreeBSD 5.x impliments securelevel for each jail,
	though I haven't myself gone deep with jailing on 5.x, so many new 
strategy options...

- dummynet or other for traffic shaping (first implimented in 96')
   (I don't know if PF is capable of traffic-shaping on FreeBSD?)

- Quotas, disk partition schemes, or Image-based disk schemes
   for resource-based controls (The quota command appeared in 4.2BSD)

And anything else in the OS can be added to this list to control 
resources in a common manner.

** SERIOUSLY ** What can Xen do that cannot be done with fundamental 
tools on ANY good UNIX?  I am truly interested here.


--
Questions/interests I still have about Xen- but perhaps in the next few 
weeks of reading, I'll learn more about it here:

>> I really wasn't referring to vmware or bochs, but was alluding to
>> Jail(8)'ing, which has more to do with the overall history of FreeBSD
>> itself, (not to shabby a rep for stability/security/performance <g>).
> Apples to oranges, again. You can't compare xen to jail. You just 
> can't.
> Different things. Designed to solve different problems.

Seems like- but then what I'm still wondering is, what are the Xen 
advantages when applied to hosting common internet applications?  What 
does it have over jail(8), feature-wise, or in the fundamental 
differences in use?

> If your problem *can* be solved by jail, and you trust jail enough, use
> jail. Xen is designed to solve a different problem.

What different problem?!  I don't see the different problem, aside from 
kernel-dev abilities?
Jail() 'was designed to solve particular SECURITY problems in ways 
chroot did not address', which ended up manifest as a Virtual Machine.  
It's that simple.
What was Xen intended for in it's design?

--
A few other misc. details snipped in here:

>> Gotcha.  How is this [Xen] different than a nicely configured unix 
>> group?
> It is nothing like it. Compare two different users on same machine to 
> two
> different machines running different operating systems.

Gotcha- my mistake based on the way it was explained.

--------------------

So at the end of this email, all I have found as a major difference is 
the *approach* to confining the VM system, not the feaures, and 
certainly better/worse type arguments don't REALLY apply here.  Period.

In the BSD's, much less is done in the kernel (than is my understanding 
of what is done in Linux kernel)- so from a paradigm perspective, I 
believe we are simply solving similar problem, (Virtualizing an OS to 
provide services to mutually untrusted users), from totally different 
paradigms in UNIX.  That's all.  And I think Xen's side of the solution 
is fascinating- and hope to learn more...

Rocket,
.ike




From ike  Thu Jan 27 17:05:15 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:05:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <200501270250.31116.john@unixen.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<41F85F77.5080309@travelersdiary.com>
	<200501270250.31116.john@unixen.org>
Message-ID: <8630AEAD-70AF-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Josh, John,

On Jan 27, 2005, at 2:50 AM, John Bacall wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 January 2005 10:26 pm, Josh McCormack wrote:
>> I knew nothing of XEN before this discussion, but in looking for more
>> info, this article seemed pretty good:
>> http://www.linux-mag.com/2004-10/xen_01.html

THANKS for this article- it's really a good one.


> Googling for Xen yielded that article up front after Sunny posted, and
> would have saved everyone a chunck of time. Google! baby.

At least confusion/conversation can lead to fast learning sometimes!  
(nothing hardwires something more than explaining something on the 
spot...)

> Alex was
> originally right about the Windows port, if the reference was to its
> existence. Googling around it is clear it once existed; the Cambridge
> developers apparently have pulled it, and claim non-support now in the
> site docs. That's apparently so out of decorum, and commonsense, to
> wit, MS is a sponsor according to the site, secondly, you do not want
> to be a vector to litigation against yourself if you can help it, i.e.,
> a claim for aiding unauthorized, unlicensed Win* instances.

Makes sense...  And who *really* is that exited about windows Vhosts in 
there anyhow :)

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Thu Jan 27 17:06:51 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:06:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <BF265D6E-70AF-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>

Hey Steve,

On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:28 PM, steve wrote:

> hi all,
>
> who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to 
> start with
>
>
>
> please respond off list

Sorry to be part of hijacking your request thread man... Snowballs from 
the snow?

Rocket-
.ike




From steve  Thu Jan 27 17:20:53 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:20:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <BF265D6E-70AF-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <41F54C57.1020904@n2sw.com>
	<BF265D6E-70AF-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <41F96945.7070109@n2sw.com>

Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hey Steve,
> 
> On Jan 24, 2005, at 2:28 PM, steve wrote:
> 
>> hi all,
>>
>> who on this list provides shared hosting, am looking for 2 domains to 
>> start with
>>
>>
>>
>> please respond off list
> 
> 
> Sorry to be part of hijacking your request thread man... Snowballs from 
> the snow?
> 
> Rocket-
> .ike
> 
> 
> 
OK SO NOW CAN WHOEVER SELLS SHARED HOSTING PLEASE REPLY WITH A ONE 
LINER, YOUR URL,

sorry bout the caps am too lazy to retype



From alex  Thu Jan 27 17:29:24 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:29:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <4A4BF5B9-70AE-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501271648520.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Alex- I don't want to make this a confrontational thread, because I find
> this new tech all really interesting- so I'll just disregard the stuff
> that feels disrespectful to me from your last post, and I'm sorry if I
> came off as disrespectful in my last post to you.
Likewise, I usually come off as brash. Don't take it personally. 

<snip>

> On Jan 26, 2005, at 10:05 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> >> Jail(2) and Jail(8) combined are much smaller than all the VM systems
> >> I've seen.
> > Of course, because they aren't VM systems.
> 
> I'd argue, for the technical record online with the archive of this
> thread, that Jailing is an kernel/OS-based VM, and that Xen is an
> emulator-based VM.  I say this because various VM schemes are all based
> around 1 idea- providing full OS-level access to mutually untrusted
> uses/processes. Virtual Machine =! Emulator, IMHO.
Jailing is not a VM in any definition of that word. Xen is not an
emulator. Bochs (original Bochs) is an emulator. IBM VM is not an
emulator. It is a VM. You are using wrong language.

> > Xen *is* a virtual machine whose intention is to completely separate
> > mutually untrusted *operating systems!*
> 
> Understood now, and in the context of web services, (something you,
> Sunny, and I all do for a living in various contexts), don't we all meet
> the same end goal with both Xen and jail(8)?
Kinda sorta, but not really. In the same sense, you meet same goal with 
buying two machines and giving each machine to a separate user. So, no, 
you don't. You can't compare.

> >> I really wasn't referring to vmware or bochs, but was alluding to
> >> Jail(8)'ing, which has more to do with the overall history of FreeBSD
> >> itself, (not to shabby a rep for stability/security/performance <g>).
> > Apples to oranges, again. You can't compare xen to jail. You just
> > can't. Different things. Designed to solve different problems.
> 
> Seems like- but then what I'm still wondering is, what are the Xen
> advantages when applied to hosting common internet applications?
Complete separation of control. Xen-based user can upgrade his kernel, can 
run his own init(8), can have his own routing table, etc.

> > If your problem *can* be solved by jail, and you trust jail enough,
> > use jail. Xen is designed to solve a different problem.
> 
> What different problem?!
> 
> I can discuss the implementation for the problem Jailing was designed to
> solve, perhaps somebody could contrast it with Xen's purpose:
See above.

<snip>

> 2. Allow each jail to have it's own superuser administrator whose
> activities are limited to the processes, files, and network associated
> with it's jail'
> 
> The implimentation scope is actually so small it's really only got these
> two stated design goals, (which themselves are
> dissected/discussed/scrubbed fairly extensively).
That's right. Processes and files doesn't make the complete system. And 
network control is only partial with jail.

> >> Do other OS's running unmodified, run in a manner which they will
> >> meet production-level expections for use (espeically in the context
> >> of internet applications)?
> > They *are* modified. Modifications are necessary to gain the highest
> > performance under the virtual machine environment.
> 
> This all makes sense now- but it still doesn't answer my question,
> (though Sunny basically did),
> 
> If I have Xen basics straight, I'm still wondering if the modifications
> are simply a performance-gain issue; do they affect production-level
> expectations (perhaps expectations for use in common internet
> services/applications)?
Well, yes, they do have reliability implications. It is a VM environment. 
There could be bugs in the implementation of VM-related code. How many? We 
don't know.

> It seems to me, as Sunny and I had discussed long ago, that Linux VM
> systems really need a Kernel available to the instances more than the
> BSD's, because so much is done in Linux through the Kernel- whereas the
> converse is true across the BSD's, where much more is accomplished
> through userland tools and subsystems (if not userland, at least
> subsystems which aren't in the kernel).
What in the world are you talking about now? Both Linux and bsd's have 
about the same separation of kernelspace and userspace. Name one example. 

<snip>
> > I beg to differ. Jail-related code is *all over* the OS. Every time a
> > root privilege is checked, a code-writer needs to think whether one
> > should also check for 'root but not superuse'.
> 
> Are you absolutely certain that the code you are referring to is not the
> foundation for chroot?  In BSD's other than FreeBSD, jail is often
> vocabulary used to discribe chrooted processes- (esp. in the OpenBSD
> scene).
> 
> I'll be totally happy to stand down corrected, but at this point, I'm
> going to need to see some examples in the kernel source- and have
> started poking around...
> 
> To my knowledge, after looking up/browsing the source for regular jail, 
> it's even smaller than I'd thought,
Jail is still chroot on steroids, no matter how much BSD people try to 
claim it isn't.

<snip>
> To my knowledge, that's all there is to jailing, so that's under 16 kb
> in source code- (again, vs. the 9.2 mb of Xen- so we're actually at the
> magnitude of about 580 times the code, give or take, for the record.)
Jail-related code is all over kernel. Everywhere you check for superuser, 
you need to check for jailed superuser.

> Now, diving deeper into the source, I can't find the jaill-related code
> which you state is *all-over*.
> 
> I found about 550 references to jail, mostly contained in the files
> mentioned above, and some strewn about in the chroot code, in the source
> for PS, expected places- but haven't taken the time to investigate *too*
> deeply (but did find a cute EPS diagram which grep ripped 'jail' out
> of).
There you go. It's all over. Everywhere kernel needs to check for 
superuser, it needs to check for a jailed superuser.

<snip>

> Well in PS, this makes a heck of a lot of sense, but not from the
> perspective of a hole as you describe, but in the way which jails are
> restricted from particular low-level calls, like the calls ps would make
> to page memory/cpu for processes.
ps(1) does not page memory or CPU. Kernel does. 

Try to get your language correct, like 'system call'.

Yes, in a syscall, kernel needs to verify whether root is a superuser.  
That means at every place where you check for rootness, you need to also
check for jailed root-ness.

> So this patch is to make ps function within the contextual confines of a
> jail, for practical purposes, and trying to modify this would just break
> ps for the jail (an inconvenient problem, for sure)..
No, that patch was just cosmetic to show whether process is jailed or 
not.

There's a bigger issue: ps used to work through direct access of kernel
virtual memory. If you allow that access to a jailed user, you open
yourself for information-leakage attacks. So you don't, and instead make a
separate system call (or a /proc-like filesystem like linux) to export
that information. That's code that might not have been needed if not for
jail.

Also, to me, the fact that jailed user can still see 'ps' for *every* 
process, not just owned by same user is a big information leak. And if you 
say that its possible to add code to prevent that leak by having 
/proc-like-filesystem present different views - well, that's even more 
jail-related-code that doesn't need to exist.

There are similar things that also need to work by directly accessing 
kernel memory. In jail, they won't work. That's not cool.

> <Total sidenote- top does not work in jails out of the box, for the this
> very reason, (paging memory) and this gives me a nice lead to actually
> get around to hacking a patch to make top work in jails- what a
> convienence that'd be... (but talk is cheap, so I digress)...>
Yes, cause top works directly by accessing kernel virtual memory.

> Alex- show me the code.  I'm willing to step down on this issue, but
> currently believe I am correct, and it's worth stating it here to not do
> any disservice to jailing.
Which code? I'm just showing you examples. Just because it doesn't say 
"jail" in the source it doesn't mean it isn't necessitated by jail.

> > Yes, but in Xen, you have to hax0r two environments before you can
> > even *get* to the Host environment!
> 
> That point not understood on this end of the wire, here's why:  If a 
> cracker gets through the Xen enviornment and into the host, how is the 
> host *not* then compromised?  I mean, it's still all the same hardware, 
> still the same system.
Again, you are either not getting it or intentionally misunderstanding my
words. Assume you have a bug in a certain syscall kernel that causes OS to
crash when it is executed with certain parameters. With jail, you are 
immediately screwed. 

> I would additionally argue that a hole *could* be burrowed right through
> the OS instance, (I'd start digging at the kernel mods for Xen modified
> system calls)- and burrow straight into the host OS, precisely the same
> threat model that jail(2) faces.  Layers in between don't matter, big
> picture of this complexity, it's still the same hardware.
> 
> (/me opens the door for Sunny here hoping he'll pipe in with some words 
> on yummy hardware separation tech?)
No it isn't. Xen runs code in a different security ring. (Ring 0, ring 1,
ring 2, ring 3). Read up on intel security contexts. When you are running 
inside a guest OS on Xen, your syscalls are handled by the "guest OS" 
kernel. Guest OS can make a syscall into Xen. Xen can make calls into Host 
kernel. There is no direct way for a guest OS to make a syscall into Host 
kernel. Period.

<snip>
> Can you tell me *why* my abstract opinion presented, is not correct?
> 
> With both Xen or Jail(8), restricting resources, is, restricting
> resources. Or is there something I'm missing here?
Yes, you are. You can't restrict global kernel resources with jail,
because you can't, kernel doesn't account for those (and accounting for it
would take hit on performance and be "more code to maintain"). You cannot
say that jailed user "cannot use more than 512M of *ANY KIND OF MEMORY*".
Not possible.

> >> It is not however necessary in the context of my managed virtualized
> >> servers, that my jails have a kernel- and actually is something I
> >> prefer, in the context of type of app/web development I do.  It's
> >> that simple- and there really isn't anything you've stated here Alex
> >> which constructively changes my preference- (though I'm open to
> >> change my mind if there's something that I'm missing here??)
> > When one of your users starts to continuously locally-ddos your
> > machine, you might change your mind on VMs.
> 
> Do you now mean network-based DDoS over the local network or localhost?
Local DDoS.

>   Would this not be mitigated by running various forms of bandwidth
> shaping and packet filtering, thoughtfully taking into consideration
> communications between abstracted interfaces?  (I've worked in big jail
> clusters which were NAT'd on the host server, routing was very modular,
> controllable, predictable... well worth the added overhead and
> complexity...)
No.

> Ok, so to totally put a halt to the FUD about features here, and after
> reading up on Xen, I don't see any features which are not covered when
> running jails.  Here's why:
> 
> > You are able to use Xen to control damage from resource-based attacks
> > far more effectively than jail - for example, by telling Xen not to
> > allocate more than 256M to a given OS, no matter what. You just can't
> > do that with jail.
> 
> Actually, yes- you can do this with jailed systems, though it's done
> differently, insomuch as the scope of jailing as a whole is totally
> different, it leverages basic, time-tested, expendable, replacable unix
> utilities to cover the features which Xen provides for itself.  There is
> no 'can't do' anything here, basic examples would be:
Jesus christ. I feel that I'm arguing with a GenToo user who just been 
told that FreeBSD is much cooler. You have no understanding of how the 
kernel works.

<snip>
> - dummynet or other for traffic shaping (first implimented in 96')
>    (I don't know if PF is capable of traffic-shaping on FreeBSD?)
> 
> - Quotas, disk partition schemes, or Image-based disk schemes
>    for resource-based controls (The quota command appeared in 4.2BSD)
> 
> And anything else in the OS can be added to this list to control 
> resources in a common manner.
No, you cannot. You can't even reliably control *user* memory allocated by
jailed processes. In addition to that, kernel will allocate memory based
on userspace requests. Kernel memory is not accounted to a specific user.  
It is possible to make kernel starve by having it allocate too much
memory. Each little thing that you do will allocate a kernel resource. I
don't know if kernel accounts for each socket you open and can place
limits on that. Does it account for each file that you open?

> ** SERIOUSLY ** What can Xen do that cannot be done with fundamental
> tools on ANY good UNIX?  I am truly interested here.
Here's one: have each user have their own init and inittab. Have each user 
choose their own freaking kernel.

> --
> Questions/interests I still have about Xen- but perhaps in the next few 
> weeks of reading, I'll learn more about it here:
> 
> >> I really wasn't referring to vmware or bochs, but was alluding to
> >> Jail(8)'ing, which has more to do with the overall history of FreeBSD
> >> itself, (not to shabby a rep for stability/security/performance <g>).
> > Apples to oranges, again. You can't compare xen to jail. You just
> > can't. Different things. Designed to solve different problems.
> 
> Seems like- but then what I'm still wondering is, what are the Xen
> advantages when applied to hosting common internet applications?  What
> does it have over jail(8), feature-wise, or in the fundamental
> differences in use?
If you don't get it by now, you won't. I give up.

> > If your problem *can* be solved by jail, and you trust jail enough,
> > use jail. Xen is designed to solve a different problem.
> 
> What different problem?!  I don't see the different problem, aside from
> kernel-dev abilities? Jail() 'was designed to solve particular SECURITY
> problems in ways chroot did not address', which ended up manifest as a
> Virtual Machine.  It's that simple. What was Xen intended for in it's
> design?
Jail is not a virtual machine. Xen is. I can't talk any more if we don't 
agree on basic terminology.


> So at the end of this email, all I have found as a major difference is
> the *approach* to confining the VM system, not the feaures, and
> certainly better/worse type arguments don't REALLY apply here.  Period.
One is VM, other isn't. 

> In the BSD's, much less is done in the kernel (than is my understanding
> of what is done in Linux kernel)- so from a paradigm perspective, I
> believe we are simply solving similar problem, (Virtualizing an OS to
> provide services to mutually untrusted users), from totally different
> paradigms in UNIX.  That's all.  And I think Xen's side of the solution
> is fascinating- and hope to learn more...
I give up. 

-alex





From sunny-ml  Thu Jan 27 17:41:20 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:41:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <4A4BF5B9-70AE-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<4A4BF5B9-70AE-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <200501271741.20791.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

I have to admit, these long emails are getting really annoying

How about I simply create a XEN box that everyone can have an account on.  
Both on the VMs and the host-os itself so everyone can get a sense/feel of 
what xen from a host/client perspective ?

On Thursday 27 January 2005 16:56, Isaac Levy wrote:

[...]


> Seems like- but then what I'm still wondering is, what are the Xen
> advantages when applied to hosting common internet applications?
>

IIRC jail() can have name-space clashes when it comes to disk permissions and 
such.  This isn't possible on a XEN like system.  (I have to admit, I don't 
fully understand the scope of this clashing)Xen and the Art of Virtualization 
describes the architecture of Xen 1.x. Published at SOSP 2003 
Xen and the Art of Repeated Research is an independent paper verifying our 
SOSP results (written by a group at Clarkson University),. Published at 
FREENIX 2004 
Safe Hardware Access with the Xen Virtual Machine Monitor describes the new 
I/O infrastructure in Xen 2.0. Published at the OASIS ASPLOS 2004 workshop. 

XEN allows me to do live suspends and resumes.  I can literally take a 
snapshot of a running OS, and resume it when I desire.  I can even migrate a 
VM over the network in such a live fashion.

the availability and flexibility is clearly higher

> > If your problem *can* be solved by jail, and you trust jail enough, use
> > jail. Xen is designed to solve a different problem.
>
> What different problem?!
>

Jail() is freebsd on freebsd.  XEN is anything on XEN/linux.  Its not a 
question of different problems, its just a question of two different products 
with goals that can be very similar to each other.

[...]

> It seems to me, as Sunny and I had discussed long ago, that Linux VM
> systems really need a Kernel available to the instances more than the
> BSD's, because so much is done in Linux through the Kernel- whereas the
> converse is true across the BSD's, where much more is accomplished
> through userland tools and subsystems (if not userland, at least
> subsystems which aren't in the kernel).
>

ummm, no, I guess I came off wrongly

both the linux kernel and *bsd kernel are the same when you think of what they 
do (implement syscalls, provide drivers etc).  There is very little 
difference between the two (other than random things like NFS being done in 
user/kernel space.)

At the time UML was nothing more than a port of linux onto itself.  Meaning 
the linux kernel was given all the ELF executable stuff to make it look and 
run just like a regular binary.

Tho this is somewhat offtopic, heh

> To my knowledge, that's all there is to jailing, so that's under 16 kb
> in source code- (again, vs. the 9.2 mb of Xen- so we're actually at the
> magnitude of about 580 times the code, give or take, for the record.)

ok, I think u are looking at the wrong file:

sunny at atticus[~/files]$ ls -lh xen-2.0.3-src.tgz
-rw-r--r--  1 sunny sunny 2.1M Jan 12 07:31 xen-2.0.3-src.tgz

2.1 megs, of which contains patch for linux kernel and the tools to run xen 
too.

>
> -
> Now, diving deeper into the source, I can't find the jaill-related code
> which you state is *all-over*.
>
> I found about 550 references to jail, mostly contained in the files
> mentioned above, and some strewn about in the chroot code, in the
> source for PS, expected places-  but haven't taken the time to
> investigate *too* deeply (but did find a cute EPS diagram which grep
> ripped 'jail' out of).

see, its not a question of 550, or even 3.  Its a question of any code being 
modified or not.  With XEN only the kernel needs to be ported to a 
quasi-architecture.  There is zero editing of the userspace libraries or 
tools.

This could be a good thing, a bad thing.  Whatever floats your boat.

> <Total sidenote- top does not work in jails out of the box, for the
> this very reason, (paging memory) and this gives me a nice lead to
> actually get around to hacking a patch to make top work in jails- what
> a convienence that'd be... (but talk is cheap, so I digress)...>
>

tools like top would have to work in XEN because VMs are run a separate kernel 
addressing scheme.

> That point not understood on this end of the wire, here's why:  If a
> cracker gets through the Xen enviornment and into the host, how is the
> host *not* then compromised?  I mean, it's still all the same hardware,
> still the same system.
> I would additionally argue that a hole *could* be burrowed right
> through the OS instance, (I'd start digging at the kernel mods for Xen
> modified system calls)- and burrow straight into the host OS, precisely
> the same threat model that jail(2) faces.  Layers in between don't
> matter, big picture of this complexity, it's still the same hardware.
>
> (/me opens the door for Sunny here hoping he'll pipe in with some words
> on yummy hardware separation tech?)
>

hardware separation is more about saying I have "4 CPUs on a single CPU card, 
one can be dedicated to a single instance of linux-2.6.11, the others to 
linux-2.6.12" (or so I think.  it doesn't matter if this is wrong because 
isn't entirely relevant)

In order to break into the Host, you would first need to exploit the local 
running kernel (linux, netbsd, whatever).  Then you would have to deal with 
the domains layers that XEN sets up, and finally you then would be able to 
affect the host in any way shape or form.  Layers are very important because 
XEN is built around allowing/denying specific layers specific things.  These

Much easier said than done.

I'm sorry, but this is my last post for this thread.  If folks want to 
continue discussion, lets all meet for a cup of joe or something, heh

Sunny Dubey



From sunny-ml  Thu Jan 27 17:48:46 2005
From: sunny-ml (Sunny Dubey)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:48:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <200501271741.20791.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<4A4BF5B9-70AE-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200501271741.20791.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <200501271748.46925.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>

On Thursday 27 January 2005 17:41, Sunny Dubey wrote:

> IIRC jail() can have name-space clashes when it comes to disk permissions
> and such.  This isn't possible on a XEN like system.  (I have to admit, I
> don't fully understand the scope of this clashing)Xen and the Art of
> Virtualization describes the architecture of Xen 1.x. Published at SOSP
> 2003
> Xen and the Art of Repeated Research is an independent paper verifying our
> SOSP results (written by a group at Clarkson University),. Published at
> FREENIX 2004
> Safe Hardware Access with the Xen Virtual Machine Monitor describes the new
> I/O infrastructure in Xen 2.0. Published at the OASIS ASPLOS 2004 workshop.
>
> XEN allows me to do live suspends and resumes.  I can literally take a
> snapshot of a running OS, and resume it when I desire.  I can even migrate
> a VM over the network in such a live fashion.
>
> the availability and flexibility is clearly higher
>

oops

there was a mistake paste:

I wanted to write:

---------------------------------

IIRC jail() can have name-space clashes when it comes to disk permissions and 
such.  This isn't possible on a XEN like system.  (I have to admit, I don't 
fully understand the scope of this clashing)

XEN allows me to do live suspends and resumes.  I can literally take a 
snapshot of a running OS, and resume it when I desire.  I can even migrate a 
VM over the network in such a live fashion.

the availability and flexibility is clearly higher

---------------------------------



From george  Thu Jan 27 18:47:13 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:47:13 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
In-Reply-To: <20050127195952.GD6744@run>
References: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com>
	<20050127195952.GD6744@run>
Message-ID: <20050127234713.GA3345@sta.local>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 02:59:52PM -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
>....



Sincere apologies if I offended anyone with my document reader request.
I am in no way a chauvinist; the particular need really is as sincere
and innocent as it is presented (even though framed jovially); so, I
didn't carefully consider how it might be misconstrued.

If you where offended, please reconsider your reaction to my request
for a symbiotic relation. The tutoring offer to a geek student stands;
basically you get personalized instruction on appropriate *nix topics
that I choose, while, in the process, giving my brain, eyes and hands a
break from their regular occupation. A more developed description will
be provided on request and will be posted on a list that I expect to
have more candidates.

Warm regards,
// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From tux  Thu Jan 27 18:57:45 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:57:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New NYCBUG Library entries
References: <20050127133453.694e60e0@delinux.abwatley.com><20050127195952.GD6744@run>
	<20050127234713.GA3345@sta.local>
Message-ID: <001d01c504cb$ff2368b0$6400a8c0@olympus>

: On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 02:59:52PM -0500, George Georgalis wrote:
: 
: Sincere apologies if I offended anyone with my document reader request.
: I am in no way a chauvinist; the particular need really is as sincere
: and innocent as it is presented (even though framed jovially); so, I
: didn't carefully consider how it might be misconstrued.

..and I'll post my requests for sisters off-list..

Sorry, folks.



From george  Thu Jan 27 19:09:07 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:09:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stupid question . . . 
Message-ID: <178a610da3d45d323b3d16a55a59f5da@sddi.net>

What came first, driftnet or etherpeg on OS X?

Anyone know?

g




From george  Thu Jan 27 19:13:34 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:13:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: stupid question . . . 
In-Reply-To: <178a610da3d45d323b3d16a55a59f5da@sddi.net>
References: <178a610da3d45d323b3d16a55a59f5da@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <75e3d2b7f103b73eb0fd8dc5da94b8a3@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 7:09 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

> What came first, driftnet or etherpeg on OS X?
>
> Anyone know?
>

Forget it. . . the answer is on the driftnet homepage.

http://www.ex-parrot.com/~chris/driftnet/

Sometimes it's bad to live in the world of ports. . .

g




From george  Thu Jan 27 19:13:54 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:13:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stupid question . . .
In-Reply-To: <178a610da3d45d323b3d16a55a59f5da@sddi.net>
References: <178a610da3d45d323b3d16a55a59f5da@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050128001354.GC3345@sta.local>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:09:07PM -0500, G Rosamond wrote:
>What came first, driftnet or etherpeg on OS X?

My hunch was right driftnet is to the left so it came first...

http://www.ex-parrot.com/~chris/driftnet/

Driftnet

[ Home page | Software ]
Screenshot of driftnet running

Inspired by EtherPEG (though, not owning an Apple Macintosh, I've never actually seen it in operation), Driftnet is a program which listens to network traffic and picks out images from TCP streams it observes. Fun to run on a host which sees lots of web traffic. 


// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Thu Jan 27 19:18:26 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:18:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] stupid question . . .
In-Reply-To: <20050128001354.GC3345@sta.local>
References: <178a610da3d45d323b3d16a55a59f5da@sddi.net>
	<20050128001354.GC3345@sta.local>
Message-ID: <7c8781e443a547c67caf28f7b8dde099@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 7:13 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 07:09:07PM -0500, G Rosamond wrote:
>> What came first, driftnet or etherpeg on OS X?
>
> My hunch was right driftnet is to the left so it came first...
>
> http://www.ex-parrot.com/~chris/driftnet/
>
> Driftnet
>
> [ Home page | Software ]
> Screenshot of driftnet running
>
> Inspired by EtherPEG (though, not owning an Apple Macintosh, I've 
> never actually seen it in operation), Driftnet is a program which 
> listens to network traffic and picks out images from TCP streams it 
> observes. Fun to run on a host which sees lots of web traffic.
>

Thanks. . . .

I caught that. . .

Driftnet is awesome if anyone hasn't played with it yet. . . perfect 
for when you're on a public wireless network . . ..

g




From dlavigne6  Thu Jan 27 20:20:29 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:20:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan't wait
In-Reply-To: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:

> i'm so clever with my subject lines.  seriously tho
> i can't wait for bsdcan this year, so i've started to
> think about getting time off work, booking a flight
> and hotel rooms.  boy i hope the speaker list is good
> this year dan ;^)  i think this year it may be fun
> to try to book a nycbug room(s) where we can setup
> a LAN and maybe do a little hacking for the con.  what
> do you all think?


And maybe those attending schmoocon can show those who missed it a trick 
or two. Take good notes!

Dru



From george  Thu Jan 27 20:15:51 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:15:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan't wait
In-Reply-To: <20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <151ee0324d6989c14699a38573b2f6e6@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Dru wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> i'm so clever with my subject lines.  seriously tho
>> i can't wait for bsdcan this year, so i've started to
>> think about getting time off work, booking a flight
>> and hotel rooms.  boy i hope the speaker list is good
>> this year dan ;^)  i think this year it may be fun
>> to try to book a nycbug room(s) where we can setup
>> a LAN and maybe do a little hacking for the con.  what
>> do you all think?
>
>
> And maybe those attending schmoocon can show those who missed it a 
> trick or two. Take good notes!
>
>

i think a number of us are going. . .

Ike, Bob, Bruno and me are driving down. . .

Who else is going so we can hook up. . .?

g




From tux  Thu Jan 27 20:17:40 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:17:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan't wait
References: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org><20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>
	<151ee0324d6989c14699a38573b2f6e6@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <003401c504d7$29acaff0$6400a8c0@olympus>

: Who else is going so we can hook up. . .?

/me raises hand



From pete  Thu Jan 27 20:27:22 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:27:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan't wait
In-Reply-To: <20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20050128012722.GA55873@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 08:20:29PM -0500, Dru wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Pete Wright wrote:
> 
> >i'm so clever with my subject lines.  seriously tho
> >i can't wait for bsdcan this year, so i've started to
> >think about getting time off work, booking a flight
> >and hotel rooms.  boy i hope the speaker list is good
> >this year dan ;^)  i think this year it may be fun
> >to try to book a nycbug room(s) where we can setup
> >a LAN and maybe do a little hacking for the con.  what
> >do you all think?
> 
> 
> And maybe those attending schmoocon can show those who missed it a trick 
> or two. Take good notes!
> 
good call on shmoocon dru!!

-pete


> Dru

-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From george  Thu Jan 27 20:34:59 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:34:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan't wait
In-Reply-To: <003401c504d7$29acaff0$6400a8c0@olympus>
References: <20050127200318.GA52385@finn.nomadlogic.org><20050127201854.J552@dru.domain.org>
	<151ee0324d6989c14699a38573b2f6e6@sddi.net>
	<003401c504d7$29acaff0$6400a8c0@olympus>
Message-ID: <f80e505cd775bda42a3ed6355c432d8f@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> : Who else is going so we can hook up. . .?
>
> /me raises hand

NYC*BUG informal bof. . . i'm sure we'll all be hanging out. . .

we'll figure out next week when to meet. . .

g




From joshmccormack  Thu Jan 27 20:43:15 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:43:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <200501271741.20791.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501262143010.491-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>	<4A4BF5B9-70AE-11D9-9FA2-000D9368D406@lesmuug.org>
	<200501271741.20791.sunny-ml@opencurve.org>
Message-ID: <41F998B3.5080407@travelersdiary.com>

Sunny Dubey wrote:
>   With XEN only the kernel needs to be ported to a
> quasi-architecture.  There is zero editing of the userspace libraries or 
> tools.
<lots of good stuff cut>

Only the kernel? I'm a little confused. In one of the articles I read 
leaders of various Linux distros were asked about supporting XEN. So 
would all that would be required be to custom compile your Linux kernel? 
  And if NetBSD already supports it, and OpenBSD will support it soon, 
what about FreeBSD?

XEN sounds pretty incredible. After seeing a friend use VMWare like 
crazy and in really awesome ways, I'm excited about this.

Josh




From alex  Thu Jan 27 20:45:10 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:45:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <41F998B3.5080407@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272041530.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Josh McCormack wrote:

> Only the kernel? I'm a little confused. In one of the articles I read 
> leaders of various Linux distros were asked about supporting XEN. So 
> would all that would be required be to custom compile your Linux kernel? 
Yes.

> And if NetBSD already supports it, and OpenBSD will support it soon,
> what about FreeBSD?
Dunno, can't be that complicated though.

However, BSDs have diverged in their support for memory management, so 
porting isn't all that simple.

-alex

-alex




From george  Thu Jan 27 21:43:16 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:43:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Eric Raymond on "Smart Questions. . ."
Message-ID: <2f45a2936f8d5f476ea5636296ddb7a7@sddi.net>

Thought this might be useful to the list.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html




From bob  Thu Jan 27 22:50:18 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:50:18 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Sexy FreeBSD Wallpaper
In-Reply-To: <004f01c504b0$99cde550$6400a8c0@olympus>
References: <004f01c504b0$99cde550$6400a8c0@olympus>
Message-ID: <6D705AF4-0B76-4290-9672-97725BAF2AA1@redivi.com>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:


> I came across this somewhere and figured it would look good as my 
> wallpaper:
>
> http://unixfun.net/FreeBSD_Chick.png
>
> (Dru: No offense, but you probably wouldn't be interested in it :)

That's funny, it says "don't worry, it's free" .. however, I bet that 
the image they gimped is copyrighted and used without permission.  I'm 
pretty sure that's a celebrity.

-bob




From george  Thu Jan 27 23:28:49 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:28:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501271648520.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501271648520.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 5:29 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>


<very big snip>

>
>> It seems to me, as Sunny and I had discussed long ago, that Linux VM
>> systems really need a Kernel available to the instances more than the
>> BSD's, because so much is done in Linux through the Kernel- whereas 
>> the
>> converse is true across the BSD's, where much more is accomplished
>> through userland tools and subsystems (if not userland, at least
>> subsystems which aren't in the kernel).
> What in the world are you talking about now? Both Linux and bsd's have
> about the same separation of kernelspace and userspace. Name one 
> example.

Woah. . . we can start with the fact that userland for the GNU/Linuxes 
are providing some 200 or whatever interpretations of the kernelspace 
of Linus. . . and the respective BSDs are dealing with the kernel and 
user land in a much more unified manner. . .

>
> <snip>
>>> I beg to differ. Jail-related code is *all over* the OS. Every time a
>>> root privilege is checked, a code-writer needs to think whether one
>>> should also check for 'root but not superuse'.
>>
>> Are you absolutely certain that the code you are referring to is not 
>> the
>> foundation for chroot?  In BSD's other than FreeBSD, jail is often
>> vocabulary used to discribe chrooted processes- (esp. in the OpenBSD
>> scene).
>>
>> I'll be totally happy to stand down corrected, but at this point, I'm
>> going to need to see some examples in the kernel source- and have
>> started poking around...
>>
>> To my knowledge, after looking up/browsing the source for regular 
>> jail,
>> it's even smaller than I'd thought,
> Jail is still chroot on steroids, no matter how much BSD people try to
> claim it isn't.

???  To paraphrase your earlier comments, Alex, it's all apples and 
oranges.

chroot and jails may have started with the same vague goal, but that's 
a bit of a stretch.

A provider might use chroot to provide services to a provider, but 
providing jails is a whole other level of control that a chroot'd 
program won't provide. . .

>
> <snip>
>> To my knowledge, that's all there is to jailing, so that's under 16 kb
>> in source code- (again, vs. the 9.2 mb of Xen- so we're actually at 
>> the
>> magnitude of about 580 times the code, give or take, for the record.)
> Jail-related code is all over kernel. Everywhere you check for 
> superuser,
> you need to check for jailed superuser.

yes, pretty built-in with implementation. . .

>
>> Now, diving deeper into the source, I can't find the jaill-related 
>> code
>> which you state is *all-over*.
>>
>> I found about 550 references to jail, mostly contained in the files
>> mentioned above, and some strewn about in the chroot code, in the 
>> source
>> for PS, expected places- but haven't taken the time to investigate 
>> *too*
>> deeply (but did find a cute EPS diagram which grep ripped 'jail' out
>> of).
> There you go. It's all over. Everywhere kernel needs to check for
> superuser, it needs to check for a jailed superuser.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Well in PS, this makes a heck of a lot of sense, but not from the
>> perspective of a hole as you describe, but in the way which jails are
>> restricted from particular low-level calls, like the calls ps would 
>> make
>> to page memory/cpu for processes.
> ps(1) does not page memory or CPU. Kernel does.
>
> Try to get your language correct, like 'system call'.
>
> Yes, in a syscall, kernel needs to verify whether root is a superuser.
> That means at every place where you check for rootness, you need to 
> also
> check for jailed root-ness.
>
>> So this patch is to make ps function within the contextual confines 
>> of a
>> jail, for practical purposes, and trying to modify this would just 
>> break
>> ps for the jail (an inconvenient problem, for sure)..
> No, that patch was just cosmetic to show whether process is jailed or
> not.
>
> There's a bigger issue: ps used to work through direct access of kernel
> virtual memory. If you allow that access to a jailed user, you open
> yourself for information-leakage attacks. So you don't, and instead 
> make a
> separate system call (or a /proc-like filesystem like linux) to export
> that information. That's code that might not have been needed if not 
> for
> jail.
>
> Also, to me, the fact that jailed user can still see 'ps' for *every*
> process, not just owned by same user is a big information leak. And if 
> you
> say that its possible to add code to prevent that leak by having
> /proc-like-filesystem present different views - well, that's even more
> jail-related-code that doesn't need to exist.


This might clear that question up. . . and note this is 4.10, not 5.x. 
. .

from a jail. . .

[xxx at mail ~]$ sudo ps -ax
   PID  TT  STAT      TIME COMMAND
  2171  ??  SsJ    0:01.04 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  2178  ??  SsJ    0:00.54 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  2180  ??  IsJ    0:00.66 /usr/sbin/cron
  2182  ??  SsJ    0:00.49 /usr/sbin/sshd
  2251  ??  SsJ    0:03.48 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  2253  ??  SJ     0:01.32 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  2254  ??  SsJ    0:06.94 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2270  ??  SsJ    0:05.40 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  2273  ??  IJ     0:00.10 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2274  ??  IJ     0:00.11 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2275  ??  IJ     0:00.01 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2276  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2277  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  8106  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  8112  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
56717  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
57311  ??  SJ     0:00.02 sshd: xxx [priv] (sshd)
57314  ??  SJ     0:00.01 sshd: xxx at ttyp0 (sshd)
57315  p0  SsJ    0:00.01 -bash (bash)
57316  p0  R+J    0:00.01 ps -ax

 From the master box. . .


[xxx at xxx xxx]$ sudo ps -ax

   PID  TT  STAT      TIME COMMAND
     0  ??  DLs    0:00.00  (swapper)
     1  ??  ILs    0:00.05 /sbin/init --
     2  ??  DL     0:00.00  (taskqueue)
     3  ??  DL     0:00.05  (usb0)
     4  ??  DL     0:00.00  (usbtask)
     5  ??  DL     0:00.00  (aic_recovery0)
     6  ??  DL     0:00.00  (aic_recovery0)
     7  ??  DL     0:00.00  (aic_recovery1)
     8  ??  DL     0:00.00  (aic_recovery1)
     9  ??  DL     0:00.62  (pagedaemon)
    10  ??  DL     0:00.00  (vmdaemon)
    11  ??  DL     0:02.96  (bufdaemon)
    12  ??  DL     0:08.07  (vnlru)
    13  ??  DL     6:35.22  (syncer)
    32  ??  Is     0:00.00 adjkerntz -i
    91  ??  Ss     0:01.39 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
    98  ??  Ss     0:00.54 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW -a xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
   100  ??  Is     0:00.84 /usr/sbin/cron
   102  ??  Ss     0:00.53 /usr/sbin/sshd -4
   104  ??  Ss     0:01.05 /usr/sbin/usbd
   107  ??  Ss     0:09.20 sendmail: accepting connections (sendmail)
   110  ??  Is     0:00.16 sendmail: Queue runner at 00:30:00 for 
/var/spool/clientmq
   134  ??  Ss     0:00.63 moused -p /dev/psm0 -t auto
  2171  ??  SsJ    0:01.04 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  2178  ??  SsJ    0:00.54 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  2180  ??  IsJ    0:00.66 /usr/sbin/cron
  2182  ??  SsJ    0:00.49 /usr/sbin/sshd
  2251  ??  SsJ    0:03.48 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  2253  ??  SJ     0:01.32 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  2254  ??  SsJ    0:06.95 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2270  ??  SsJ    0:05.40 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  2273  ??  IJ     0:00.10 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2274  ??  IJ     0:00.11 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2275  ??  IJ     0:00.01 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2276  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2277  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2336  ??  SsJ    0:01.04 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  2343  ??  SsJ    0:00.54 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  2345  ??  IsJ    0:00.64 /usr/sbin/cron
  2347  ??  SsJ    0:00.46 /usr/sbin/sshd
  2416  ??  SsJ    0:03.42 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  2418  ??  SJ     0:01.36 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  2419  ??  SsJ    0:07.03 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2434  ??  SsJ    0:05.54 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  2437  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2438  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2439  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2440  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2441  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2500  ??  SsJ    0:01.00 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  2507  ??  SsJ    0:00.57 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  2509  ??  IsJ    0:00.65 /usr/sbin/cron
  2511  ??  SsJ    0:00.48 /usr/sbin/sshd
  2580  ??  SsJ    0:03.40 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  2582  ??  SJ     0:01.34 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  2583  ??  SsJ    0:06.99 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2598  ??  SsJ    0:05.60 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  2601  ??  IJ     0:00.10 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2602  ??  IJ     0:00.10 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2603  ??  IJ     0:00.10 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2604  ??  IJ     0:00.01 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2605  ??  IJ     0:00.11 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2664  ??  SsJ    0:02.12 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  2671  ??  SsJ    0:00.54 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  2673  ??  IsJ    0:00.63 /usr/sbin/cron
  2675  ??  SsJ    0:00.48 /usr/sbin/sshd
  2747  ??  SsJ    0:07.36 /usr/libexec/postfix/master
  2749  ??  SJ     0:01.33 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  2750  ??  SsJ    0:06.83 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2766  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2767  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2768  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2769  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2770  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2844  ??  SsJ    0:01.05 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  2851  ??  SsJ    0:00.52 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  2853  ??  IsJ    0:00.64 /usr/sbin/cron
  2855  ??  SsJ    0:00.48 /usr/sbin/sshd
  2924  ??  SsJ    0:03.46 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  2926  ??  SJ     0:01.33 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  2927  ??  SsJ    0:07.28 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2942  ??  SsJ    0:05.41 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  2945  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2946  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2947  ??  IJ     0:00.01 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2948  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  2949  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3008  ??  SsJ    0:01.02 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  3015  ??  SsJ    0:00.52 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  3017  ??  IsJ    0:00.64 /usr/sbin/cron
  3019  ??  SsJ    0:00.48 /usr/sbin/sshd
  3088  ??  SsJ    0:03.40 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  3090  ??  SJ     0:01.32 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  3091  ??  SsJ    0:06.99 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3106  ??  SsJ    0:05.46 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  3109  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3110  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3111  ??  IJ     0:00.01 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3112  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3113  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3172  ??  SsJ    0:01.00 /usr/sbin/syslogd -s
  3179  ??  SsJ    0:00.55 /usr/sbin/inetd -wW
  3181  ??  IsJ    0:00.64 /usr/sbin/cron
  3183  ??  SsJ    0:00.45 /usr/sbin/sshd
  3252  ??  SsJ    0:03.41 /usr/local/libexec/postfix/master
  3254  ??  SJ     0:01.30 qmgr -l -t fifo -u
  3255  ??  SsJ    0:06.74 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3270  ??  SsJ    0:05.59 /usr/bin/perl 
/usr/local/lib/webmin/miniserv.pl /usr/lo
  3273  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3274  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3275  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3276  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3277  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3280  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  3281  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  8106  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  8112  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  9265  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  9266  ??  IJ     0:00.02 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  9267  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  9268  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
  9269  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
39540  ??  IJ     0:00.00 /usr/local/sbin/httpd -DSSL
56658  ??  SJ     0:00.03 proxymap -t unix -u
56713  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
56717  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
56718  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
56719  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
56721  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
56772  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
56774  ??  SJ     0:00.02 pickup -l -t fifo -u
57319  ??  S      0:00.02 sshd: xxx [priv] (sshd)
57322  ??  S      0:00.01 sshd: xxx at ttyp0 (sshd)
57323  p0  Ss     0:00.01 -bash (bash)
57325  p0  R+     0:00.01 ps -ax
16536  v0  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv0
   142  v1  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv1
   143  v2  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv2
   144  v3  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv3
   145  v4  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv4
   146  v5  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv5
   147  v6  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv6
   148  v7  Is+    0:00.00 /usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv7


>
> There are similar things that also need to work by directly accessing
> kernel memory. In jail, they won't work. That's not cool.
>
>> <Total sidenote- top does not work in jails out of the box, for the 
>> this
>> very reason, (paging memory) and this gives me a nice lead to actually
>> get around to hacking a patch to make top work in jails- what a
>> convienence that'd be... (but talk is cheap, so I digress)...>
> Yes, cause top works directly by accessing kernel virtual memory.
>
>> Alex- show me the code.  I'm willing to step down on this issue, but
>> currently believe I am correct, and it's worth stating it here to not 
>> do
>> any disservice to jailing.
> Which code? I'm just showing you examples. Just because it doesn't say
> "jail" in the source it doesn't mean it isn't necessitated by jail.
>
>>> Yes, but in Xen, you have to hax0r two environments before you can
>>> even *get* to the Host environment!
>>
>> That point not understood on this end of the wire, here's why:  If a
>> cracker gets through the Xen enviornment and into the host, how is the
>> host *not* then compromised?  I mean, it's still all the same 
>> hardware,
>> still the same system.
> Again, you are either not getting it or intentionally misunderstanding 
> my
> words. Assume you have a bug in a certain syscall kernel that causes 
> OS to
> crash when it is executed with certain parameters. With jail, you are
> immediately screwed.
>
>> I would additionally argue that a hole *could* be burrowed right 
>> through
>> the OS instance, (I'd start digging at the kernel mods for Xen 
>> modified
>> system calls)- and burrow straight into the host OS, precisely the 
>> same
>> threat model that jail(2) faces.  Layers in between don't matter, big
>> picture of this complexity, it's still the same hardware.
>>
>> (/me opens the door for Sunny here hoping he'll pipe in with some 
>> words
>> on yummy hardware separation tech?)
> No it isn't. Xen runs code in a different security ring. (Ring 0, ring 
> 1,
> ring 2, ring 3). Read up on intel security contexts. When you are 
> running
> inside a guest OS on Xen, your syscalls are handled by the "guest OS"
> kernel. Guest OS can make a syscall into Xen. Xen can make calls into 
> Host
> kernel. There is no direct way for a guest OS to make a syscall into 
> Host
> kernel. Period.
>
> <snip>
>> Can you tell me *why* my abstract opinion presented, is not correct?
>>
>> With both Xen or Jail(8), restricting resources, is, restricting
>> resources. Or is there something I'm missing here?
> Yes, you are. You can't restrict global kernel resources with jail,
> because you can't, kernel doesn't account for those (and accounting 
> for it
> would take hit on performance and be "more code to maintain"). You 
> cannot
> say that jailed user "cannot use more than 512M of *ANY KIND OF 
> MEMORY*".
> Not possible.
>
>>>> It is not however necessary in the context of my managed virtualized
>>>> servers, that my jails have a kernel- and actually is something I
>>>> prefer, in the context of type of app/web development I do.  It's
>>>> that simple- and there really isn't anything you've stated here Alex
>>>> which constructively changes my preference- (though I'm open to
>>>> change my mind if there's something that I'm missing here??)
>>> When one of your users starts to continuously locally-ddos your
>>> machine, you might change your mind on VMs.
>>
>> Do you now mean network-based DDoS over the local network or 
>> localhost?
> Local DDoS.
>
>>   Would this not be mitigated by running various forms of bandwidth
>> shaping and packet filtering, thoughtfully taking into consideration
>> communications between abstracted interfaces?  (I've worked in big 
>> jail
>> clusters which were NAT'd on the host server, routing was very 
>> modular,
>> controllable, predictable... well worth the added overhead and
>> complexity...)
> No.
>
>> Ok, so to totally put a halt to the FUD about features here, and after
>> reading up on Xen, I don't see any features which are not covered when
>> running jails.  Here's why:
>>
>>> You are able to use Xen to control damage from resource-based attacks
>>> far more effectively than jail - for example, by telling Xen not to
>>> allocate more than 256M to a given OS, no matter what. You just can't
>>> do that with jail.
>>
>> Actually, yes- you can do this with jailed systems, though it's done
>> differently, insomuch as the scope of jailing as a whole is totally
>> different, it leverages basic, time-tested, expendable, replacable 
>> unix
>> utilities to cover the features which Xen provides for itself.  There 
>> is
>> no 'can't do' anything here, basic examples would be:
> Jesus christ. I feel that I'm arguing with a GenToo user who just been
> told that FreeBSD is much cooler. You have no understanding of how the
> kernel works.

Be nice. . .

<snipped further. . .>

g




From george  Thu Jan 27 23:32:47 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:32:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501271648520.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8e482b136d1e9dc594cea1645395da33@sddi.net>


On Jan 27, 2005, at 11:28 PM, G. Rosamond wrote:

>
>
in my massive ps outputs. . . I forgot this. . .

[xxx at xxx xxx]$ uname -a
FreeBSD xxx 4.10-RELEASE-p5 FreeBSD 4.10-RELEASE-p5 #0: Wed Jan 12 
16:39:32 EST 2005     root at banana:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  i386




From alex  Thu Jan 27 23:44:27 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:44:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, G. Rosamond wrote:

> >> It seems to me, as Sunny and I had discussed long ago, that Linux VM
> >> systems really need a Kernel available to the instances more than the
> >> BSD's, because so much is done in Linux through the Kernel- whereas
> >> the converse is true across the BSD's, where much more is
> >> accomplished through userland tools and subsystems (if not userland,
> >> at least subsystems which aren't in the kernel).
> > What in the world are you talking about now? Both Linux and bsd's have
> > about the same separation of kernelspace and userspace. Name one
> > example.
> 
> Woah. . . we can start with the fact that userland for the GNU/Linuxes
> are providing some 200 or whatever interpretations of the kernelspace of
> Linus. . . and the respective BSDs are dealing with the kernel and user
> land in a much more unified manner. . .
What is it with you people? The original statement was that BSD does less
in kernelspace than linux does. That has nothing to do with how many
interpretations (?) Linux userspace has (again, what exactly are you
talking about, interpretations of what?).

Oh, and go count how many BSD' completely *distinct* userspaces are out
there compared to linux. (Hint: fbsd, obsd, netbsd at least. I don't know
how many other splinters appeared last year, picobsd, dragonfly etc who
all have *different* userspaces). At least with linux, everyone sticks to
the original package source.

> >>> I beg to differ. Jail-related code is *all over* the OS. Every time a
> >>> root privilege is checked, a code-writer needs to think whether one
> >>> should also check for 'root but not superuse'.
> >>
> >> Are you absolutely certain that the code you are referring to is not
> >> the foundation for chroot?  In BSD's other than FreeBSD, jail is
> >> often vocabulary used to discribe chrooted processes- (esp. in the
> >> OpenBSD scene).
> >>
> >> I'll be totally happy to stand down corrected, but at this point, I'm
> >> going to need to see some examples in the kernel source- and have
> >> started poking around...
> >>
> >> To my knowledge, after looking up/browsing the source for regular
> >> jail, it's even smaller than I'd thought,
> > Jail is still chroot on steroids, no matter how much BSD people try to
> > claim it isn't.
> 
> ???  To paraphrase your earlier comments, Alex, it's all apples and
> oranges.
> 
> chroot and jails may have started with the same vague goal, but that's a
> bit of a stretch.
> 
> A provider might use chroot to provide services to a provider, but
> providing jails is a whole other level of control that a chroot'd
> program won't provide. . .
What exactly do you mean? Jail is chroot PLUS some stuff. Stuff is
somewhat of a control over network capabilities plus separation of a 
concept of superuser from userid 0. That's all.

> > Also, to me, the fact that jailed user can still see 'ps' for *every*
> > process, not just owned by same user is a big information leak. And if
> > you say that its possible to add code to prevent that leak by having
> > /proc-like-filesystem present different views - well, that's even more
> > jail-related-code that doesn't need to exist.
> 
> 
<snippity>

> This might clear that question up. . . and note this is 4.10, not 5.x.  
> . .
<snippity>

>  From the master box. . .
Even more proof you can't win - now process-list-related-code checks for
jailness. You lose on simplicity. Where else you need to check for
jailness? Does netstat -a show sockets that don't belong to current jail? 
How about IPC between process in jail and out of jail? Should jailed 
process be able to access shm shared memory? Should jailed process be able 
to communicate to sockets in jail-namespace that were opened by non-jailed 
process?

You see, there are a *lot* of places the information could leak out of
jail. All those places need to be protected, meaning more code. All thanks
to the fundamental fact that there is only one kernel for all processes,
jailed or not. That kernel has only one set of data structures. Anything 
to 'virtualize' certain data structures (like virtualizing the "/" 
filesystem location) is fraught with peril because you need to track down 
every place where that data structure is referenced to make sure you won't 
accidentally "get out". Like, making sure .. from / won't get you any 
higher. Making sure you can only see unix-domain-sockets you created, etc, 
list goes on.  One mistake and you are screwed: 
http://www.securiteam.com/unixfocus/5SP0120CAO.html

You are virtualizing *parts* of kernel, instead of virtualizing entire
kernel. Again - it may be what you want, jail provides a reasonable degree
of separation for a "well-behaved and not malicious" user.

The bottom line is, with FreeBSD in order to allow untrusted user in a 
jail, you have to *trust* all of the FBSD kernel. With a VM solution, I 
only have to trust the VM monitor

Thus, to compare complexity, you have to compare complexity of a VM 
monitor (like Xen) with a complexity of full-blown OS.


-alex




From nycbug  Fri Jan 28 00:06:41 2005
From: nycbug (a nice bug)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:06:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050128050641.GA75167@florian.hastek.net>

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, terabytes of stuff..

schnip.


:0
* ^Subject.*shared hosting
/dev/null



:^}





From mspitzer  Fri Jan 28 00:35:01 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:35:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30501272135738edf68@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:44:27 -0500 (EST), alex at pilosoft.com
<alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> Oh, and go count how many BSD' completely *distinct* userspaces are out
> there compared to linux. (Hint: fbsd, obsd, netbsd at least. I don't know
> how many other splinters appeared last year, picobsd, dragonfly etc who
> all have *different* userspaces). At least with linux, everyone sticks to
> the original package source.

Actually the main difference is in admin land(the part of user land
that you use to manage the box) not user user land. now with that
said:
redhat
suse
debian
gentoo
And I do not track the 872+ splinter distros of linux

have absolutely nothing in common as far as administrative tools go
they are flat out incompatible and for the ones I have used( redhat,
debian, suse) have absolutely shitty man pages and information
separated into all sorts of weird ass places on the system and not on
the system.  The box is not up and they did not even bother to put
accurate info in a consistent format on it so you can fix the fucking
problem.  Now lets get into the fact that as far as I know they all
use the standard linux file system lay out, about which the kindest
thing I can say about it is it was laid out by a mosquito snorting
ddt, absolutely no separation between core functionality and all the
other stuff.  this design actually is actively hostile to keeping a
system up and running.  And then there is the dance of the flipping
libraries and kernels, to get x up you need version y of glibc and
that breaks z, that you also need up.  Quality control on the stable
branch of the kernel is a *JOKE*.

[snip]

the rest was a fair argument though.

And I do agree that the jail code is the tip of the iceberg as fare as
kernel stuff that is needed by  the kernel to make jails work.  Every
place that the kernel would give you access to kernel data structures
needs to have "jail code" and this has nothing to do with root, user
can do stuff that invokes this check "ps wwauxx" had better give
different info to an unprivileged user in a jail and out of a jail. 
For every "distinct path" that happens from user space into kernel
space you need to have a guardian making sure nothing unwanted happens
or leaks.  Much like the the distinction between 0==uid and 0!=uid you
simply need to have code to check for it in the proper place.  Now
with good engineering you can minimize the number of places that the
check needs to be put in.  And with that said you still need to
maintain the checks and add new ones as the kernel changes.

marc



From pete  Fri Jan 28 01:03:41 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 01:03:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <20050128050641.GA75167@florian.hastek.net>
References: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<20050128050641.GA75167@florian.hastek.net>
Message-ID: <20050128060341.GD55873@finn.nomadlogic.org>

On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:06:41AM -0500, a nice bug wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, terabytes of stuff..
> 
> schnip.
> 
> 
> :0
> * ^Subject.*shared hosting
> /dev/null

seriously folks....*at least* make a new thread.  this is 
just getting sad.  if i wanted a pissing contest i'd goto 
a bar and talk politics.

back to the original post...i do know know of any people 
on list that offer BSD based shared hosting...altho if i
remember correctly rack space does offer a FreeBSD plan.
it also may be worth getting in contact with PANIX...with
them you get shell account as well.


-p


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From john  Fri Jan 28 05:06:09 2005
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:06:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272041530.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272041530.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <200501280506.15630.john@unixen.org>

On Thursday 27 January 2005 08:45 pm, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> > And if NetBSD already supports it, and OpenBSD will support it
> > soon, what about FreeBSD?

In the literature you will read that NBSD are treating the Xen port as a 
a garden variety cpu architecture port.

OBSD developers apparently will not support Xen. They have no faith in 
Linux as the Host OS, or perhaps any other OS as a Host OS. As the NBSD 
base is the progenitor of OBSD the port difficulty should be 
reasonable. However, without the cooperation of obsd there is little 
point in going forward. mickey@ could shed light on this scuttlebutt, 
but this sort of thing is below their radar or interest.

The FBSD port is ongoing, apparently.

CTS, I would like to hear about (dis)similar efforts as Xen on the *BSD 
front. Anyone? Or, howabout the state of VM, or virtualization?

	John




From john  Fri Jan 28 05:16:03 2005
From: john (John Bacall)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 05:16:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <20050128060341.GD55873@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
	<20050128050641.GA75167@florian.hastek.net>
	<20050128060341.GD55873@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <200501280516.03123.john@unixen.org>

On Friday 28 January 2005 01:03 am, Pete Wright wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 12:06:41AM -0500, a nice bug wrote:
> > > On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, terabytes of stuff..

> > :0
> >
> > * ^Subject.*shared hosting
> > /dev/null

Sad.

> seriously folks....*at least* make a new thread.  

'#' in your mua (Mutt) breaks threads. ;-)

> this is
> just getting sad. 

I am learning more than I slotted this week for jail(#)---so, is fine.

Lastly, why do folks define themselves in negative contrast to a thing, 
rather than virtuously to -their- thing. ? You'll live longer, and kick 
your dog less. Truly. Pax.

	John




From alex  Fri Jan 28 07:33:54 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:33:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501272135738edf68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501280730080.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> > Oh, and go count how many BSD' completely *distinct* userspaces are
> > out there compared to linux. (Hint: fbsd, obsd, netbsd at least. I
> > don't know how many other splinters appeared last year, picobsd,
> > dragonfly etc who all have *different* userspaces). At least with
> > linux, everyone sticks to the original package source.
> 
> Actually the main difference is in admin land(the part of user land that
> you use to manage the box) not user user land. now with that said:
> redhat suse debian gentoo And I do not track the 872+ splinter distros
> of linux
What admin land? distro-specific tools? Nobody really uses them.

Original argument was that "BSD does less in kernel space than linux". You 
are switching gears in order to avoid admitting you were wrong ;)

> have absolutely nothing in common as far as administrative tools go they
> are flat out incompatible and for the ones I have used( redhat, debian,
> suse) have absolutely shitty man pages and information separated into
> all sorts of weird ass places on the system and not on the system.  The
> box is not up and they did not even bother to put accurate info in a
> consistent format on it so you can fix the fucking problem.  Now lets
> get into the fact that as far as I know they all use the standard linux
> file system lay out, about which the kindest thing I can say about it is
> it was laid out by a mosquito snorting ddt, absolutely no separation
> between core functionality and all the other stuff.  this design
> actually is actively hostile to keeping a system up and running.  And
> then there is the dance of the flipping
Gee, its a religious issue. There's a layout you are used to, and there's 
layout you aren't used to. It seems crazy to you, but others might 
disagree.

> libraries and kernels, to get x up you need version y of glibc and that
> breaks z, that you also need up.  Quality control on the stable branch
> of the kernel is a *JOKE*.
Yeah well. 





From alex  Fri Jan 28 07:38:14 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:38:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <200501280516.03123.john@unixen.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0501280736440.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, John Bacall wrote:

> I am learning more than I slotted this week for jail(#)---so, is fine.
> 
> Lastly, why do folks define themselves in negative contrast to a thing,
> rather than virtuously to -their- thing. ? You'll live longer, and kick
> your dog less. Truly. Pax.
PAX? You mean the linux security patch? It sucks! ;)

Just kiddin'.

Yeah, to each their own. I'm not saying jail is bad. Jail is good for what 
its designed for. But it is nothing like a VM. Apples. Oranges.

-alex




From george  Fri Jan 28 09:13:40 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:13:40 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beware of Lynx. ..
Message-ID: <b26334341441bd1383710ffe2169c754@sddi.net>

off slashdot. . .

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/27/jailed_for_using_a_n.html




From rick  Fri Jan 28 09:41:22 2005
From: rick (Rick Aliwalas)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:41:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] shared hosting
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30501272135738edf68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <556558a44749e6ff308f916063018597@sddi.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0501272320540.19678-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<8c50a3c30501272135738edf68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.61.0501280935020.30863@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> redhat
> suse
> debian
> gentoo
> And I do not track the 872+ splinter distros of linux

It's a well known fact.  The number of linux distros exceeded the
number of linux users sometime in mid-2003.  I prefer the tinysofa
distro.  Imagine a world full of tiny sofas...

-rick




From unixenigma  Fri Jan 28 13:01:24 2005
From: unixenigma (G T)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:01:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beware of Lynx. ..
In-Reply-To: <b26334341441bd1383710ffe2169c754@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050128180124.85928.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:

> off slashdot. . .
> 
>
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/27/jailed_for_using_a_n.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce
> lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>

It would be very funny if it wouldn't be so sad...
It is a "browser minority" abuse!

GT 



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250



From george  Fri Jan 28 15:10:30 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:10:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beware of Lynx. ..
In-Reply-To: <20050128180124.85928.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20050128180124.85928.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c10e03a90bc19d5b5b2e02ebdbb5f33e@sddi.net>


On Jan 28, 2005, at 1:01 PM, G T wrote:

>
> --- "G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:
>
>> off slashdot. . .
>>
>>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/27/jailed_for_using_a_n.html
>
> It would be very funny if it wouldn't be so sad...
> It is a "browser minority" abuse!
>

No OS identified, but it look like sure signs of an intruder in our 
stats. . .

54         0.08%  Lynx/1.025 (CP/Build 16-bit)

If anyone wants to see our stats, email me off list as it has basic 
passwd protection to avoid some of the smut google mining. . .

It's at nycbug.org/stat

g




From bob  Fri Jan 28 16:09:50 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:09:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] beware of Lynx. ..
In-Reply-To: <c10e03a90bc19d5b5b2e02ebdbb5f33e@sddi.net>
References: <20050128180124.85928.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
	<c10e03a90bc19d5b5b2e02ebdbb5f33e@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <17de33db1dbe7948440a4aef62d79898@redivi.com>


On Jan 28, 2005, at 15:10, G. Rosamond wrote:

>
> On Jan 28, 2005, at 1:01 PM, G T wrote:
>
>>
>> --- "G. Rosamond" <george at sddi.net> wrote:
>>
>>> off slashdot. . .
>>>
>>>
>> http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/27/jailed_for_using_a_n.html
>>
>> It would be very funny if it wouldn't be so sad...
>> It is a "browser minority" abuse!
>>
>
> No OS identified, but it look like sure signs of an intruder in our 
> stats. . .
>
> 54         0.08%  Lynx/1.025 (CP/Build 16-bit)
>
> If anyone wants to see our stats, email me off list as it has basic 
> passwd protection to avoid some of the smut google mining. . .
>
> It's at nycbug.org/stat

So who do we call to get this guy arrested?

-bob




From pete  Fri Jan 28 19:27:48 2005
From: pete (Pete Wright)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:48 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
Message-ID: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>

sorry if this OT, altho frankly i have no clue what's
considered OT on talk@ anymore ;p

so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
get me up to speed on programming in python, but will
hopefully be usefull for us.  as i know there are several
python devs here...what would you all suggest as good
places to look for examples, doc and tutorials.

i've started checking out using twisted (as it seems
quite popular and well designed)...so maybe something
relating to doing dev with twisted would be helpfull.


cheers,
	pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
917.415.9866



From lists  Fri Jan 28 20:10:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:10:01 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_twisted_python_resources?=
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:48 -0500
Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> wrote:

> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
> get me up to speed on programming in python, 

Pete,

I am no guru, I just like to tinker.  But, I went through a very similar
exercise two summers ago.  You are in for a fantastic ride!  

I wanted to write a private network chat program for day traders to swap
information.  It actually leaned more toward a sqwack box IM app.  I
had a server, two flavors of client (desk mgr, trader), and an admin
client.   It was backed by a MySQL database for authentication, users
preferences, and all the messeages that went flying around. There was a
LOT more to it, but you get the idea.

I looked at twisted but found it to be overly complex; and a whole layer
removed from the programming language.  As my goal was to learn
asynchronous socket programming; specifically python sockets, I went to
the bottom rung and built my way up.  Here's some of the imports from
the server app.

import os
import sys
import asyncore
import asynchat
import socket
import threading
import signal
import marshal

Man, I had a lot of fun with that app... nah.. make that *joy*.  Wait
until you want to add a gui!  I used wxWidgets (formerly wxWindows).  I
developed it in linux but packaged it as an exe with an install program
for windows.

Again, I am no guru, but let me know if I can help.
Michael



From bob  Sat Jan 29 09:47:30 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:47:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>


On Jan 28, 2005, at 20:10, <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:48 -0500
> Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> wrote:
>
>> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
>> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
>> get me up to speed on programming in python,
>
> I am no guru, I just like to tinker.  But, I went through a very 
> similar
> exercise two summers ago.  You are in for a fantastic ride!
>
> I wanted to write a private network chat program for day traders to 
> swap
> information.  It actually leaned more toward a sqwack box IM app.  I
> had a server, two flavors of client (desk mgr, trader), and an admin
> client.   It was backed by a MySQL database for authentication, users
> preferences, and all the messeages that went flying around. There was a
> LOT more to it, but you get the idea.
>
> I looked at twisted but found it to be overly complex; and a whole 
> layer
> removed from the programming language.  As my goal was to learn
> asynchronous socket programming; specifically python sockets, I went to
> the bottom rung and built my way up.  Here's some of the imports from
> the server app.
>
> import os
> import sys
> import asyncore
> import asynchat
> import socket
> import threading
> import signal
> import marshal

The difference between Twisted and "low level" attempts at socket 
programming (either with asyncore/asynchat or directly with 
select/poll) is that Twisted accounts for lots of platform differences, 
and has years of notches on its belt.  Doing it on your own might 
appear to work, but it won't be as scalable, might have some really 
hard to track down bugs related to your misunderstanding of the dark 
secrets that the BSD sockets API is hiding from you, and it won't be 
easy to integrate with other services.

I felt the same way as you for my first asynchronous socket application 
(4 or 5 years ago, when Twisted was in a much poorer state too), but 
after I had learned first-hand what the 'hard' problems were I realized 
that Twisted already had solutions for them, plus benefits such as 
existing implementations of various protocols and a nice thread pool 
implementation.

I also see that you're importing the marshal module... which, if used 
over the wire, is terribly terribly insecure.  You can crash an app 
with a bad marshal, and marshals are specific to a particular Python 
API version.  If you have a client running Python 2.3 and a server 
running Python 2.4, marshal will probably not work.  It will definitely 
not work with alternative Python implementations such as Jython.  If it 
is used for persistence, you may not be able to read your persistent 
datastore if you upgrade Python (though in practice you probably will, 
Python makes no such guarantee).  Twisted solves this problem as it has 
its own safe serialization mechanism (jelly) used by a nice RPC API 
called Perspective Broker.  If you are using marshal for just 
persistence, use pickle instead, it is not tightly bound to the Python 
implementation.

Also, if I were designing such an app, I would probably use SQLite or 
PostgreSQL rather than MySQL.  At the low-mid range, SQLite 3 is 
godawful fast and makes backup and migration really really easy.  Going 
up a few notches, PostgreSQL is more powerful than MySQL in that it 
supports more stuff useful for development, has less stupid "gotchas", 
and a much better license.  Also, in the case of PostgreSQL, the Python 
DB-API adapters available are a whole hell of a lot better written, and 
there is even a pure python implementation available 
<http://barryp.org/software/bpgsql>.

The best way to learn Twisted programming these days seems to be the 
step by step tutorial of writing a Finger server taking advantage of 
some of the various features Twisted has to offer 
<http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/howto/tutorial/index>.  
Other than that, #twisted on IRC is usually helpful, as-is the 
<twisted-python at twistedmatrix.com> list.  Besides that, I have 
significant (years) of experience with Twisted and I am a contributor 
(though I don't have much time to hack on Twisted these days), so I can 
provide some help on or off this list.

It may be particularly useful if you kept a log of your learning 
experience so that you can clean it up and write an article.  The 
article would not only help other sysadmin/developer types looking to 
write simple applications to better their network, but it will also 
help the Twisted folks patch a few holes in the learning curve.

-bob




From dlavigne6  Sat Jan 29 11:09:37 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:09:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
References: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20050129110747.C578@dru.domain.org>



On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Bob Ippolito wrote:

<big snip>

> It may be particularly useful if you kept a log of your learning experience 
> so that you can clean it up and write an article.  The article would not only 
> help other sysadmin/developer types looking to write simple applications to 
> better their network, but it will also help the Twisted folks patch a few 
> holes in the learning curve.


I strongly second this point. Anyone willing to give that a go, I can 
approach my O'Reilly editor to get it published when you're ready. You'll 
even make a bit of change in the bargain :-)

Dru



From ike  Sat Jan 29 11:04:17 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:04:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
References: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <a899e02b79517ed52dde8f06728337df@lesmuug.org>

Yo Bob, Michael, Pete, all,

On Jan 29, 2005, at 9:47 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> On Jan 28, 2005, at 20:10, <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:48 -0500
>> Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> wrote:
>>
>>> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
>>> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
>>> get me up to speed on programming in python,

Ooh- yummy...  Can we beta test it sometime for nycbug chat? :)  (I 
don't care if it's a learning app, I just think it's cool to chat 
nycbug using something written by one of us in exile...)

>>
>> I am no guru, I just like to tinker.  But, I went through a very 
>> similar
>> exercise two summers ago.  You are in for a fantastic ride!
>>
>> I wanted to write a private network chat program for day traders to 
>> swap
>> information.  It actually leaned more toward a sqwack box IM app.  I
>> had a server, two flavors of client (desk mgr, trader), and an admin
>> client.   It was backed by a MySQL database for authentication, users
>> preferences, and all the messeages that went flying around. There was 
>> a
>> LOT more to it, but you get the idea.

Yummy.

>>
>> I looked at twisted but found it to be overly complex; and a whole 
>> layer
>> removed from the programming language.  As my goal was to learn
>> asynchronous socket programming; specifically python sockets, I went 
>> to
>> the bottom rung and built my way up.  Here's some of the imports from
>> the server app.
>>
>> import os
>> import sys
>> import asyncore
>> import asynchat
>> import socket
>> import threading
>> import signal
>> import marshal

Well, I wanted to throw in .02? on this- I agree with both Michael and 
Bob here, for different reasons-

I've not truly made the time, or had the project, to dive seriously 
into Twisted- and casually browsing it, I'll agree it's daunting at 
first glance, (even though I work regularly in Python).

I agree with Michael, insomuch as I have experienced most tasks can be 
accomplished very completely and elegantly using just the base python 
libs.  The core of the language is delightfully complete, and the core 
libraries are designed to be a very comprehensive set of tools for 
common, and uncommon tasks.

However, on the other side, experience tells me Bob is right too, some 
tasks (mostly tasks involving heterogeneous environments [www anything, 
basically]) can inadvertently drop you deep into a DEEP rabbit-hole- 
network sockets totally fitting that bill.


> The difference between Twisted and "low level" attempts at socket 
> programming (either with asyncore/asynchat or directly with 
> select/poll) is that Twisted accounts for lots of platform 
> differences, and has years of notches on its belt.  Doing it on your 
> own might appear to work, but it won't be as scalable, might have some 
> really hard to track down bugs related to your misunderstanding of the 
> dark secrets that the BSD sockets API is hiding from you, and it won't 
> be easy to integrate with other services.
>
> I felt the same way as you for my first asynchronous socket 
> application (4 or 5 years ago, when Twisted was in a much poorer state 
> too),

Yay- Go Swocket!  :)

> but after I had learned first-hand what the 'hard' problems were I 
> realized that Twisted already had solutions for them, plus benefits 
> such as existing implementations of various protocols and a nice 
> thread pool implementation.
>
> I also see that you're importing the marshal module... which, if used 
> over the wire, is terribly terribly insecure.


> You can crash an app with a bad marshal,

Yes.  Experienced this once.  Not fun, at all.


> and marshals are specific to a particular Python API version.  If you 
> have a client running Python 2.3 and a server running Python 2.4, 
> marshal will probably not work.

Didn't know that.  Run like hell, at least to Python Pickles IMO.


> It will definitely not work with alternative Python implementations 
> such as Jython.  If it is used for persistence, you may not be able to 
> read your persistent datastore if you upgrade Python (though in 
> practice you probably will, Python makes no such guarantee).  Twisted 
> solves this problem as it has its own safe serialization mechanism 
> (jelly) used by a nice RPC API called Perspective Broker.  If you are 
> using marshal for just persistence, use pickle instead, it is not 
> tightly bound to the Python implementation.

Going to have to second this one, but without direct experiences here- 
just an academic understanding of the implementation.  I saw a lecture 
on Perspecive Broker by it's author at PyCon a while back, was 
seriously impressive.  He'd elegantly solved a lot of mechanical 
problems I had experienced using xmlrpc/soap type stuff long ago, I was 
very impressed and have been looking for an excuse to dive into some 
PB/jelly ever since.


> Also, if I were designing such an app, I would probably use SQLite or 
> PostgreSQL rather than MySQL.  At the low-mid range, SQLite 3 is 
> godawful fast and makes backup and migration really really easy.  
> Going up a few notches, PostgreSQL is more powerful than MySQL in that 
> it supports more stuff useful for development, has less stupid 
> "gotchas", and a much better license.  Also, in the case of 
> PostgreSQL, the Python DB-API adapters available are a whole hell of a 
> lot better written, and there is even a pure python implementation 
> available <http://barryp.org/software/bpgsql>.

 From my Zope experiences, (where various SQL DB's are regularly tied to 
the backend), I feel it's important to second this sentiment:
The Python MySQL scene is in my opinion, simply very messy.  Tons of 
rough edges to cut your hands open on.  (I found myself hacking C to 
fix the PyMsql module for a particular system just weeks ago for work- 
and then there's all these weird transactional annoyances... not really 
a fun path.)  I guess because MySQL is so stable and popular, the 
python libs are suffering from a bit of 'everyone knows how to deal 
with the rough edges' syndrome or something...

PostgreSQL is indeed much better supported, I say that because the 
adapters I've used just transparently work as expected, no complaints 
yet, but I don't know squat about the SQLite side.


> The best way to learn Twisted programming these days seems to be the 
> step by step tutorial of writing a Finger server taking advantage of 
> some of the various features Twisted has to offer 
> <http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/howto/tutorial/index>.  
> Other than that, #twisted on IRC is usually helpful, as-is the 
> <twisted-python at twistedmatrix.com> list.  Besides that, I have 
> significant (years) of experience with Twisted and I am a contributor 
> (though I don't have much time to hack on Twisted these days), so I 
> can provide some help on or off this list.
>
> It may be particularly useful if you kept a log of your learning 
> experience so that you can clean it up and write an article.  The 
> article would not only help other sysadmin/developer types looking to 
> write simple applications to better their network, but it will also 
> help the Twisted folks patch a few holes in the learning curve.
>
> -bob

Dude- I'll totally second that learning-Log idea.  Dunno if it's 
appropriate for nyc*bug site, but I bet nobody would dissuade you from 
posting something about your experiences there :) - weather or not the 
app succeeds for you...

Rocket-
.ike




From bob  Sat Jan 29 12:24:08 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:24:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>

On Jan 28, 2005, at 19:27, Pete Wright wrote:

> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
> get me up to speed on programming in python, but will
> hopefully be usefull for us.  as i know there are several
> python devs here...what would you all suggest as good
> places to look for examples, doc and tutorials.
>
> i've started checking out using twisted (as it seems
> quite popular and well designed)...so maybe something
> relating to doing dev with twisted would be helpfull

This is just an example of how much Twisted can do for you.  This is a 
trivial chat server for Macromedia Flash's XMLSocket feature.  
Basically what it does is it forwards messages that a client sends to 
every connected user (including the sender).  It's great for testing.  
For scalability and security purposes, you will of course want to use a 
SSL connection and NOT forward every message to every user, but this is 
good enough to get started with.  The server has "no protocol", in that 
it doesn't understand what's going on beyond using '\x00' (the C string 
terminator, ASCII NULL, zero, whatever you want to call it) as a 
delimiter.  In this scenario, it is up to the clients to be "smart" 
enough to figure out what to do.  If you leave the delimiter 
specification out, it will default to '\r\n' or '\n' (I don't recall).. 
in which case you can telnet into it and it will redirect lines to all 
connected clients.

-bob

# testserver.py
# run with twistd -noy testserver.py
# opens a TCP server on all interfaces on port 50000

from twisted.application import service, internet
from twisted.protocols import basic
from twisted.internet import protocol

class MyChat(basic.LineOnlyReceiver):
     delimiter = '\x00'

     def connectionMade(self):
         print "Got new client!"
         self.factory.clients.append(self)

     def connectionLost(self, reason):
         print "Lost a client!"
         self.factory.clients.remove(self)

     def lineReceived(self, line):
         print "received", repr(line)
         for c in self.factory.clients:
             c.message(line)

     def message(self, message):
         self.sendLine(message)

factory = protocol.ServerFactory()
factory.protocol = MyChat
factory.clients = []


application = service.Application("TrivialServer")
internet.TCPServer(
     50000, factory,
).setServiceParent(application)




From chsnyder  Sat Jan 29 12:36:49 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:36:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <b762526905012909363e2976bf@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:24:08 -0500, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:

<snips>

> factory = protocol.ServerFactory()
> factory.protocol = MyChat
> factory.clients = []
> 
> application = service.Application("TrivialServer")
> internet.TCPServer(
>      50000, factory,
> ).setServiceParent(application)


That is really, excellently cool.

What is the character (rendered as a box in my view) after "factory.clients="  ?



From bob  Sat Jan 29 13:21:30 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:21:30 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <b762526905012909363e2976bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
	<b762526905012909363e2976bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F417AA2-C5DD-41EA-8844-B24EFC778319@redivi.com>


On Jan 29, 2005, at 12:36 PM, csnyder wrote:


> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:24:08 -0500, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> 
> wrote:
>
> <snips>
>
>> factory = protocol.ServerFactory()
>> factory.protocol = MyChat
>> factory.clients = []
>>
>> application = service.Application("TrivialServer")
>> internet.TCPServer(
>>      50000, factory,
>> ).setServiceParent(application)
>
>
> That is really, excellently cool.
>
> What is the character (rendered as a box in my view) after 
> "factory.clients="  ?

Two characters, it's an [empty list], but I suppose it looks like a box 
with a proportional font to the untrained eye :)

-bob




From ike  Sat Jan 29 13:48:10 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:48:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <38602a2f64b935cffb162145f465264d@lesmuug.org>

On Jan 29, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> This is just an example of how much Twisted can do for you.

Bob, thanks for posting some code man!  VERY VERY cool.

That just totally broke down my perceptions about Twisted and makes it 
suddenly feel really simple!  Now I'm just depressed that I have 
housecleaning to do and can't hack...

Rocket-
.ike




From bob  Sat Jan 29 19:20:26 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:20:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source software and licenses
Message-ID: <822b07c3172c907fb2cee8b326565cec@redivi.com>

Since the topic of licenses have come up a couple times on the list, at 
meetings, and on IRC, I thought it might be useful to do a little 
informal poll of what open source software is important to what you do, 
and what class of license it is under.  Here's some of mine that I use 
regularly and directly for commercial purposes (excluding a lot of 
dependencies that are "under the hood", such as glibc, etc.):

GPL or equivalent
- The GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) <http://gcc.gnu.org/>
- GNU readline (a library) 
<http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/rltop.html>
- Debian GNU/Linux <http://www.debian.org/>
- RedHat Linux <http://www.redhat.com/>
- VNC <http://www.realvnc.com/>
- exim <http://www.exim.org/>
- courier <http://www.courier-mta.org/>
- Trac <http://www.edgewall.com/trac/>
- Vim <http://www.vim.org>

LGPL
-  JExcelApi <http://www.andykhan.com/jexcelapi/>
- LAME <http://lame.sourceforge.net/>

MIT/BSD/Apache/PSF or equivalent
- Python <http://python.org>
- Twisted <http://twistedmatrix.com>
- PyObjC <http://pyobjc.sf.net/>
- py2app <http://undefined.org/python/#py2app>
- graphlib 
<http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/i/u/iua1/python/graphlib/html/>
- Pyrex <http://nz.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python/Pyrex/>
- PIL <http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil/>
- ctypes <http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/ctypes/>
- win32all <http://starship.python.net/crew/mhammond/>
- py2exe <http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/py2exe/>
- nevow <http://nevow.com/>
- PEAK <http://peak.telecommunity.com/>
- Subversion <http://subversion.tigris.org/>
- TortoiseSVN <http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/>
- OpenLDAP <http://www.openldap.org/>
- Apache <http://apache.org>
- PHP <http://www.php.net/>
- PostgreSQL <http://postgresql.org>
- SQLite <http://sqlite.org>
- Darwin <http://developer.apple.com/darwin/>
- DarwinPorts <http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/>
- Tcl/Tk <http://tcl.activestate.com/>
- OpenBSD <http://www.openbsd.org/>

.. this is, of course, not a complete list, but merely what I could 
think of readily.  One thing that interests me about the list is that 
GPL projects far outnumber other licenses according to many sources 
(i.e. sourceforge), but the software that is useful to me has a much 
different distribution of licenses.  Part of that may be that there is 
much more "fragmentation" in the non-GNU licenses, even though many of 
them are of equivalent "class" (i.e. MIT, BSD, ...), but I haven't ran 
the numbers on that.

-bob




From jschauma  Sun Jan 30 01:32:28 2005
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:32:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source software and licenses
In-Reply-To: <822b07c3172c907fb2cee8b326565cec@redivi.com>
References: <822b07c3172c907fb2cee8b326565cec@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20050130063228.GE6818@netmeister.org>

Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
 
> GPL or equivalent

> - Vim <http://www.vim.org>

I don't know about all the other ones, but I believe that vim is not
GPL, but rather charityware:

http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/uganda.html#license

-Jan

-- 
Life," said Marvin, "don't talk to me about life."
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From bob  Sun Jan 30 02:11:57 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:11:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source software and licenses
In-Reply-To: <20050130063228.GE6818@netmeister.org>
References: <822b07c3172c907fb2cee8b326565cec@redivi.com>
	<20050130063228.GE6818@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: <504191c36423b8beb6e1f0c12f784de3@redivi.com>


On Jan 30, 2005, at 1:32, Jan Schaumann wrote:

> Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
>
>> GPL or equivalent
>
>> - Vim <http://www.vim.org>
>
> I don't know about all the other ones, but I believe that vim is not
> GPL, but rather charityware:
>
> http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/uganda.html#license

Note that I said GPL or equivalent.  Specifically these sections make 
it GPL equivalent:

   c) Provide all the changes, including source code, with every copy of
           the modified Vim you distribute.  This may be done in the 
form of a
           context diff.  You can choose what license to use for new 
code you
           add.  The changes and their license must not restrict others 
from
           making their own changes to the official version of Vim.

        e) When the GNU General Public License (GPL) applies to the 
changes,
           you can distribute the modified Vim under the GNU GPL version 
2 or
           any later version.

It's not identical to the GPL license, but the Apache license isn't 
identical to MIT either and I grouped them together.

-bob




From lists  Sun Jan 30 11:04:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:04:01 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: turbotax
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1CvHaL2nVv-00022V@mrelay.perfora.net>


I tried logging on to turbotax and got the message below.  
I know windows users are in the majority, but this was disappointing.
I have been using this service for years on non-windows boxes.  
Now I have to tweak my settings to make it look like I am in the tribe,
and hope that works.

Michael


TurboTax for the Web does not work with the Web browser you 
are using. You must use one of the following supported browsers:

Windows?

Windows XP 	
Internet Explorer? 6.0, Netscape? 7.x, AOL? 7.0 or higher
Windows 2000/98/Me 	
Internet Explorer 5.0 or higher, Netscape 7.x, AOL 7.0 or higher
Windows NT? 	
Internet Explorer 5.0 or higher, AOL 7.0 or higher



From lists  Sun Jan 30 11:30:02 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:30:02 +0100
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_OT:_turbotax?=
Message-ID: <0MKyxe-1CvHzV48L7-0003vM@mrelay.perfora.net>


Found this and it works!

http://tinyurl.com/4dtk3

This circumvents the initial OS/browser script and goes right to logon
page.

Michael



From jschauma  Sun Jan 30 11:53:54 2005
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:53:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source software and licenses
In-Reply-To: <504191c36423b8beb6e1f0c12f784de3@redivi.com>
References: <822b07c3172c907fb2cee8b326565cec@redivi.com>
	<20050130063228.GE6818@netmeister.org>
	<504191c36423b8beb6e1f0c12f784de3@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20050130165354.GI6818@netmeister.org>

Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
> 
> On Jan 30, 2005, at 1:32, Jan Schaumann wrote:
> 
> >Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
> >
> >>GPL or equivalent
> >
> >>- Vim <http://www.vim.org>
> >
> >I don't know about all the other ones, but I believe that vim is not
> >GPL, but rather charityware:
> >
> >http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/uganda.html#license
> 
> Note that I said GPL or equivalent.  Specifically these sections make 
> it GPL equivalent:

You're right, I didn't pay much attention to the 'or equivalent'. ;-)

-Jan

-- 
My other computer also runs NetBSD!
			http://www.netbsd.org
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From bob  Sun Jan 30 14:47:00 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:47:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Reverse engineering Mac OS X software
Message-ID: <93fba2d2df6ff0801aa07e2730b45e74@redivi.com>

This is probably a bit off-topic, but I wrote up a little blog entry  
the covers some of the basics of reverse engineering on Mac OS X (the  
procedure and thought process).  I thought some of you may be  
interested, particularly with ShmooCon coming up!

http://bob.pythonmac.org/archives/2005/01/30/disabling-a-cpu-with-the- 
chud-framework/

If you guys are interested, maybe I should do a talk on reverse  
engineering Mac OS X software?  I've certainly done enough of it to  
share stories :)  Some of the topic would be useful for other  
platforms, but a lot of it is particular to Mac OS X, PPC, and/or  
Objective-C -- except for gdb of course.

-bob




From pete  Sun Jan 30 14:52:21 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:52:21 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
References: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <74749E28-72F8-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 29, 2005, at 6:47 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jan 28, 2005, at 20:10, <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:27:48 -0500
>> Pete Wright <pete at finn.nomadlogic.org> wrote:
>>
>>> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
>>> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
>>> get me up to speed on programming in python,
>
>
> Also, if I were designing such an app, I would probably use SQLite or 
> PostgreSQL rather than MySQL.  At the low-mid range, SQLite 3 is 
> godawful fast and makes backup and migration really really easy.  
> Going up a few notches, PostgreSQL is more powerful than MySQL in that 
> it supports more stuff useful for development, has less stupid 
> "gotchas", and a much better license.  Also, in the case of 
> PostgreSQL, the Python DB-API adapters available are a whole hell of a 
> lot better written, and there is even a pure python implementation 
> available <http://barryp.org/software/bpgsql>.
>

yea i've been pretty impressed by SQLite (used it while testing 
bacula).  for now i'm thinking of just using a flat XML file for this 
exercise.  the main problem i am trying to solve with this exercise  is 
keeping an association between a UID and a hostname.  while i know i 
can most likely get this data from our LDAP DB, I don't feel 
comfortable enough with our systems to start exploring our LDAP 
hierarchy and implementation.  maybe by using XML it will make things 
easier to port (%99 of our inhouse code uses XML for data transport) to 
our production systems if people start using it.  on the other hand 
before i get to tied to XML I should probably speak with our LDAP pep's 
and see what they think....


> The best way to learn Twisted programming these days seems to be the 
> step by step tutorial of writing a Finger server taking advantage of 
> some of the various features Twisted has to offer 
> <http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/howto/tutorial/index>.  
> Other than that, #twisted on IRC is usually helpful, as-is the 
> <twisted-python at twistedmatrix.com> list.  Besides that, I have 
> significant (years) of experience with Twisted and I am a contributor 
> (though I don't have much time to hack on Twisted these days), so I 
> can provide some help on or off this list.
>

I started going through that tutorial on friday, altho had to stop due 
to other work related stuff.  it looks great, and again impressed on me 
how elegant python is as a language.

> It may be particularly useful if you kept a log of your learning 
> experience so that you can clean it up and write an article.  The 
> article would not only help other sysadmin/developer types looking to 
> write simple applications to better their network, but it will also 
> help the Twisted folks patch a few holes in the learning curve.
>

that's a good idea...i'll try to keep you all posted too!


-p


~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From pete  Sun Jan 30 14:53:05 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:53:05 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <20050129110747.C578@dru.domain.org>
References: <0MKz1m-1Cuh9e0cfr-00065s@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<ac1552fff743217e76af668ed00cc740@redivi.com>
	<20050129110747.C578@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <8E615955-72F8-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 29, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Dru wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
> <big snip>
>
>> It may be particularly useful if you kept a log of your learning 
>> experience so that you can clean it up and write an article.  The 
>> article would not only help other sysadmin/developer types looking to 
>> write simple applications to better their network, but it will also 
>> help the Twisted folks patch a few holes in the learning curve.
>
>
> I strongly second this point. Anyone willing to give that a go, I can 
> approach my O'Reilly editor to get it published when you're ready. 
> You'll even make a bit of change in the bargain :-)

ok now i'm really going to try to keep a log of my experiences!  thanks 
dru!

-pete


>
> Dru
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From pete  Sun Jan 30 14:56:06 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:56:06 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <FAC6C6DF-72F8-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 29, 2005, at 9:24 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

> On Jan 28, 2005, at 19:27, Pete Wright wrote:
>
>> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
>> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
>> get me up to speed on programming in python, but will
>> hopefully be usefull for us.  as i know there are several
>> python devs here...what would you all suggest as good
>> places to look for examples, doc and tutorials.
>>
>> i've started checking out using twisted (as it seems
>> quite popular and well designed)...so maybe something
>> relating to doing dev with twisted would be helpfull
>
> This is just an example of how much Twisted can do for you.  This is a 
> trivial chat server for Macromedia Flash's XMLSocket feature.  
> Basically what it does is it forwards messages that a client sends to 
> every connected user (including the sender).  It's great for testing.  
> For scalability and security purposes, you will of course want to use 
> a SSL connection and NOT forward every message to every user, but this 
> is good enough to get started with.  The server has "no protocol", in 
> that it doesn't understand what's going on beyond using '\x00' (the C 
> string terminator, ASCII NULL, zero, whatever you want to call it) as 
> a delimiter.  In this scenario, it is up to the clients to be "smart" 
> enough to figure out what to do.  If you leave the delimiter 
> specification out, it will default to '\r\n' or '\n' (I don't 
> recall).. in which case you can telnet into it and it will redirect 
> lines to all connected clients.
>
> -bob
>
> # testserver.py
> # run with twistd -noy testserver.py
> # opens a TCP server on all interfaces on port 50000
>
> from twisted.application import service, internet
> from twisted.protocols import basic
> from twisted.internet import protocol
>
> class MyChat(basic.LineOnlyReceiver):
>     delimiter = '\x00'
>
>     def connectionMade(self):
>         print "Got new client!"
>         self.factory.clients.append(self)
>
>     def connectionLost(self, reason):
>         print "Lost a client!"
>         self.factory.clients.remove(self)
>
>     def lineReceived(self, line):
>         print "received", repr(line)
>         for c in self.factory.clients:
>             c.message(line)
>
>     def message(self, message):
>         self.sendLine(message)
>
> factory = protocol.ServerFactory()
> factory.protocol = MyChat
> factory.clients = []
>
>
> application = service.Application("TrivialServer")
> internet.TCPServer(
>     50000, factory,
> ).setServiceParent(application)


that's wicked bob thanks!  one thing i noticed on friday was that 
either twisted is not installed on our systems or it's not installed in 
an easily located place.  to get around this I was going to just 
install it in $HOME altho it looks like i may have to edit the 
install.py to make this happen ok....is there a big gotcha going this 
route.  if so i can do the dev. work on boxen off our production 
network.

-p


>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From pete  Sun Jan 30 14:57:31 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:57:31 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: turbotax
In-Reply-To: <0MKyxe-1CvHzV48L7-0003vM@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKyxe-1CvHzV48L7-0003vM@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <2D26F4A0-72F9-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 30, 2005, at 8:30 AM, <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:

>
> Found this and it works!
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4dtk3
>
> This circumvents the initial OS/browser script and goes right to logon
> page.
>

awesome thanks michael....i'll be using this link in the near future, 
ok actually probably two day's before my taxes are due ;)

-pete


> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From bob  Sun Jan 30 15:38:51 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:38:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <FAC6C6DF-72F8-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
	<FAC6C6DF-72F8-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <6c9aabd8085a7257d4b8902a3b8d78bc@redivi.com>


On Jan 30, 2005, at 14:56, pete wright wrote:

>
> On Jan 29, 2005, at 9:24 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>
>> On Jan 28, 2005, at 19:27, Pete Wright wrote:
>>
>>> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
>>> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
>>> get me up to speed on programming in python, but will
>>> hopefully be usefull for us.  as i know there are several
>>> python devs here...what would you all suggest as good
>>> places to look for examples, doc and tutorials.
>>>
>>> i've started checking out using twisted (as it seems
>>> quite popular and well designed)...so maybe something
>>> relating to doing dev with twisted would be helpfull
>>
>> This is just an example of how much Twisted can do for you.  This is 
>> a trivial chat server for Macromedia Flash's XMLSocket feature.  
>> Basically what it does is it forwards messages that a client sends to 
>> every connected user (including the sender).  It's great for testing. 
>>  For scalability and security purposes, you will of course want to 
>> use a SSL connection and NOT forward every message to every user, but 
>> this is good enough to get started with.  The server has "no 
>> protocol", in that it doesn't understand what's going on beyond using 
>> '\x00' (the C string terminator, ASCII NULL, zero, whatever you want 
>> to call it) as a delimiter.  In this scenario, it is up to the 
>> clients to be "smart" enough to figure out what to do.  If you leave 
>> the delimiter specification out, it will default to '\r\n' or '\n' (I 
>> don't recall).. in which case you can telnet into it and it will 
>> redirect lines to all connected clients.
>
> that's wicked bob thanks!  one thing i noticed on friday was that 
> either twisted is not installed on our systems or it's not installed 
> in an easily located place.  to get around this I was going to just 
> install it in $HOME altho it looks like i may have to edit the 
> install.py to make this happen ok....is there a big gotcha going this 
> route.  if so i can do the dev. work on boxen off our production 
> network.

Twisted doesn't need any extensions to run, so you can just put the 
"twisted" package (the package containing __init__.py) in the same 
place as your application (as a sibling of your script).  That's also 
good because upgrading Twisted on your machine can't possibly break 
your application.  On my server I have several versions of Twisted for 
different projects depending on when they were written :)

-bob




From pete  Sun Jan 30 15:57:52 2005
From: pete (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:57:52 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] twisted python resources
In-Reply-To: <6c9aabd8085a7257d4b8902a3b8d78bc@redivi.com>
References: <20050129002748.GA66735@finn.nomadlogic.org>
	<eec30d04c80309a485ce638be7dfab42@redivi.com>
	<FAC6C6DF-72F8-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>
	<6c9aabd8085a7257d4b8902a3b8d78bc@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <9B377902-7301-11D9-9B3C-000393BC62B8@nomadlogic.org>


On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:38 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Jan 30, 2005, at 14:56, pete wright wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 29, 2005, at 9:24 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 28, 2005, at 19:27, Pete Wright wrote:
>>>
>>>> so i'm looking to write a "simple" messaging client
>>>> for my network in python.  it's more of an exercise to
>>>> get me up to speed on programming in python, but will
>>>> hopefully be usefull for us.  as i know there are several
>>>> python devs here...what would you all suggest as good
>>>> places to look for examples, doc and tutorials.
>>>>
>>>> i've started checking out using twisted (as it seems
>>>> quite popular and well designed)...so maybe something
>>>> relating to doing dev with twisted would be helpfull
>>>
>>> This is just an example of how much Twisted can do for you.  This is 
>>> a trivial chat server for Macromedia Flash's XMLSocket feature.  
>>> Basically what it does is it forwards messages that a client sends 
>>> to every connected user (including the sender).  It's great for 
>>> testing.  For scalability and security purposes, you will of course 
>>> want to use a SSL connection and NOT forward every message to every 
>>> user, but this is good enough to get started with.  The server has 
>>> "no protocol", in that it doesn't understand what's going on beyond 
>>> using '\x00' (the C string terminator, ASCII NULL, zero, whatever 
>>> you want to call it) as a delimiter.  In this scenario, it is up to 
>>> the clients to be "smart" enough to figure out what to do.  If you 
>>> leave the delimiter specification out, it will default to '\r\n' or 
>>> '\n' (I don't recall).. in which case you can telnet into it and it 
>>> will redirect lines to all connected clients.
>>
>> that's wicked bob thanks!  one thing i noticed on friday was that 
>> either twisted is not installed on our systems or it's not installed 
>> in an easily located place.  to get around this I was going to just 
>> install it in $HOME altho it looks like i may have to edit the 
>> install.py to make this happen ok....is there a big gotcha going this 
>> route.  if so i can do the dev. work on boxen off our production 
>> network.
>
> Twisted doesn't need any extensions to run, so you can just put the 
> "twisted" package (the package containing __init__.py) in the same 
> place as your application (as a sibling of your script).  That's also 
> good because upgrading Twisted on your machine can't possibly break 
> your application.  On my server I have several versions of Twisted for 
> different projects depending on when they were written :)
>

execellent!

-p


> -bob
>
>
~o0OO0o~
Pete Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org
freenode.net: nomadlogic_




From macuser  Sun Jan 30 19:26:50 2005
From: macuser (Pastor Mac)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:26:50 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source software and licenses
In-Reply-To: <20050130063228.GE6818@netmeister.org>
References: <822b07c3172c907fb2cee8b326565cec@redivi.com>
	<20050130063228.GE6818@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: <d01025933c3f960c9454dcb5a3538f68@nac.net>

I don't know how many here read Bob Cringely's ruminations on the PBS 
site <http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050127.html> but I 
thought (yeah, I know, that's what I get for thinking) some words from 
this week's column referenced above might be intriguing to a few here 
for enjoyment, irritation, amusement or whatever:

I wrote that the Mac Mini is destined to be a high definition movie 
machine, but the fact is that it will find many uses. Wil Shipley of 
Delicious Monster Software (www.delicious-monster.com) sees it as his 
ideal server.

"I bought two Mac minis this week -- both will be servers. One is going 
to run my company's store. Our new product is a runaway success -- 
we've sold $350,000 worth of software in the first two months. I say 
this not to brag, but to make a point. The store is running on an old 
G4 cube. The cube isn't under any kind of load at all. It processes one 
sale every five minutes or so. There's absolutely no need for more 
store sites to run on a G5. If you're processing a transaction every 
second, sure, get a G5. But if you are, chances are good you're a 
multi-multi-million dollar business, and you don't care what an Xserve 
costs."

"The second box is going to be our source-code server. It's safe as 
heck, because OS X includes one-click firewalls. And, again, it's not 
like I have so many engineers that we're checking in code every second. 
If it processes a transaction every ten minutes, I'll consider our 
company very productive. For us little guys, the Mac mini is the 
absolute perfect server. I'm hooking up two identical external drives 
to each Mac mini (total of four), each two set up as a RAID 1. (Each 
drive is slightly bigger than the mini.) The chances of losing data via 
disk failure are astronomically low this way. And if a motherboard 
crashes, I can swap in the other box -- I have a $500 hot-backup OF THE 
WHOLE MACHINE. I have a complete server 'closet' that fits in less than 
a cubic foot. It's quiet. It's got a redundant RAID built-in. It's easy 
to administer and set up. I share a monitor and keyboard with my main 
workstation, so I don't have any extra clutter. Look out, Linux."

Imagine a Mac Minicluster running Apple's xGrid software. Start with a 
16-port fast Ethernet switch and stack 16 Mac Minis on top. That's a 
720 gigaflop micro-supercomputer that costs less than $9,000, can fit 
on a bookshelf, and can be up and running in as little time as it takes 
to connect the network cables. High schools will be sequencing genes.

Pax,

Pastor Mac
On OS X

Grace is when life itself is more than good enough.
						--Garrison Keillor




From george  Mon Jan 31 10:34:43 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:34:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
Message-ID: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>

Had a long discussion about open source software in Poland with a 
Polish network admin.

Apparently, the Polish government levies massive taxes on the use of 
free software.

It's done in this manner:

the tax is 22% on software. . . So you install Sendmail or some MTA, 
and it's free.  How does the government determine what the 22% is based 
on?  By a similar product like MS Exchange.  So if Exchange costs 
$1000, you have to pay the government $220 for using a free MTA.

Anybody heard of this before?  It seems completely ridiculous.  Why not 
tax tap water at the rate of the cost of a Pepsi. . .?

g




From bob  Mon Jan 31 10:43:05 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:43:05 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
In-Reply-To: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
References: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <2cce605351b3ff1b881e14bd59e2c7d5@redivi.com>


On Jan 31, 2005, at 10:34, G. Rosamond wrote:

> Had a long discussion about open source software in Poland with a 
> Polish network admin.
>
> Apparently, the Polish government levies massive taxes on the use of 
> free software.
>
> It's done in this manner:
>
> the tax is 22% on software. . . So you install Sendmail or some MTA, 
> and it's free.  How does the government determine what the 22% is 
> based on?  By a similar product like MS Exchange.  So if Exchange 
> costs $1000, you have to pay the government $220 for using a free MTA.
>
> Anybody heard of this before?  It seems completely ridiculous.  Why 
> not tax tap water at the rate of the cost of a Pepsi. . .?

Well, it should be easy to get around with BSD licensed software.  
SImply make a cheap non-free fork whenever you need it :)

No, I have never heard of such a thing before..

-bob




From krook  Mon Jan 31 10:45:49 2005
From: krook (Daniel Krook)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:45:49 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
In-Reply-To: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <OFD6DE9FC5.F6170827-ON85256F9A.0055FE7F-85256F9A.00569752@us.ibm.com>

> Anybody heard of this before?  It seems completely ridiculous.  Why not 
> tax tap water at the rate of the cost of a Pepsi. . .?

That does seem ridiculous.  At what point would the taxes be collected? 
There's no transaction or record of transfer of payment that a VAT would 
apply to.  Even if there was an audit of a large company's value, how 
would they apply the tax, one time and at what point?

Did the admin you talk too provide any details about how taxation would be 
carried out?  Has he experienced this first hand? 








Daniel Krook, Application Developer
WW Web Production Services North 2, ibm.com
1133 Westchester Avenue, White Plains, NY 10604

Personal: http://info.krook.org/
Persona: http://w3.ibm.com/eworkplace/persona_bp_finder.jsp?CNUM=9A9796897





From george  Mon Jan 31 11:06:42 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:06:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
In-Reply-To: <OFD6DE9FC5.F6170827-ON85256F9A.0055FE7F-85256F9A.00569752@us.ibm.com>
References: <OFD6DE9FC5.F6170827-ON85256F9A.0055FE7F-85256F9A.00569752@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <859481153db249154aacbe2b1ba710b4@sddi.net>


On Jan 31, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Daniel Krook wrote:

>> Anybody heard of this before?  It seems completely ridiculous.  Why 
>> not
>> tax tap water at the rate of the cost of a Pepsi. . .?
>
> That does seem ridiculous.  At what point would the taxes be collected?
> There's no transaction or record of transfer of payment that a VAT 
> would
> apply to.  Even if there was an audit of a large company's value, how
> would they apply the tax, one time and at what point?

Apparently they have inspectors visiting workplaces to check. . .

>
> Did the admin you talk too provide any details about how taxation 
> would be
> carried out?  Has he experienced this first hand?

He has experienced it. . .

I'll try to get him on the list . ..

George




From bruno  Mon Jan 31 11:55:45 2005
From: bruno (bruno)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:55:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
In-Reply-To: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
References: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050131165545.GA21849@konjz.org>

On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 10:34:43AM -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:
> It's done in this manner:
> 
> the tax is 22% on software. . . So you install Sendmail or some MTA, 
> and it's free.  How does the government determine what the 22% is based 
> on?  

22% of 0 is 0. :)



From george  Mon Jan 31 11:38:53 2005
From: george (G. Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:38:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
In-Reply-To: <20050131165545.GA21849@konjz.org>
References: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
	<20050131165545.GA21849@konjz.org>
Message-ID: <856bb22ce55fd3f5c957e999c9c187c1@sddi.net>


On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:55 AM, bruno wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 10:34:43AM -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:
>> It's done in this manner:
>>
>> the tax is 22% on software. . . So you install Sendmail or some MTA,
>> and it's free.  How does the government determine what the 22% is 
>> based
>> on?
>
> 22% of 0 is 0. :)

Right, that's what I figured, but apparently a comparable piece of 
non-free software is used to determine the tax.

g




From bruno  Mon Jan 31 12:36:46 2005
From: bruno (bruno)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:36:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] taxing free software
In-Reply-To: <856bb22ce55fd3f5c957e999c9c187c1@sddi.net>
References: <77f8275d998072c6816aee6092ffc42d@sddi.net>
	<20050131165545.GA21849@konjz.org>
	<856bb22ce55fd3f5c957e999c9c187c1@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050131173646.GB21849@konjz.org>

On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 11:38:53AM -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:
> 
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:55 AM, bruno wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 10:34:43AM -0500, G. Rosamond wrote:
> >>It's done in this manner:
> >>
> >>the tax is 22% on software. . . So you install Sendmail or some MTA,
> >>and it's free.  How does the government determine what the 22% is 
> >>based
> >>on?
> >
> >22% of 0 is 0. :)
> 
> Right, that's what I figured, but apparently a comparable piece of 
> non-free software is used to determine the tax.

That is not nice indeed. Never heard of this either, it does sound a
little hard to believe, let us know if you find out more.








From marco  Mon Jan 31 15:26:41 2005
From: marco (marco at metm.org)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:26:41 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fliers for Wed.
Message-ID: <20050131202640.GF26304@metm.org>

We're trying to hand out fliers for the next meeting on Wed.,
Does someone have access to a color printer for ~30 copies of this:

  http://nycbug.org/uploads/nycbug_march_meeting.pdf

Easiest if you are planning on comming to the meeting.
Otherwise I can print out in B&W

Thanks,

-- 
Marco



From steve  Mon Jan 31 15:38:25 2005
From: steve (steve)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:38:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fliers for Wed.
In-Reply-To: <20050131202640.GF26304@metm.org>
References: <20050131202640.GF26304@metm.org>
Message-ID: <41FE9741.7040702@n2sw.com>

marco at metm.org wrote:
> We're trying to hand out fliers for the next meeting on Wed.,
> Does someone have access to a color printer for ~30 copies of this:
> 
>   http://nycbug.org/uploads/nycbug_march_meeting.pdf
> 
> Easiest if you are planning on comming to the meeting.
> Otherwise I can print out in B&W
> 
> Thanks,
> 
i can print 40 colour copies

no problem will bring them to the meeting





From marco  Mon Jan 31 17:02:42 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:02:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fliers for Wed.
In-Reply-To: <41FE9741.7040702@n2sw.com>
References: <20050131202640.GF26304@metm.org> <41FE9741.7040702@n2sw.com>
Message-ID: <20050131220242.GA27736@metm.org>

On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 03:38:25PM -0500, steve wrote:
>>  http://nycbug.org/uploads/nycbug_march_meeting.pdf
>>
>>
>i can print 40 colour copies
>
>no problem will bring them to the meeting
>
Cool.  Thanks.

-- 
Marco