From steve.rieger  Wed Jun  1 12:32:42 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:32:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
Message-ID: <da5b176dffe45b8e6f83b3a066a59086@tbwachiat.com>

hi all am wondering is anybody else thats running fbsd 5.4 php4 
apache1, and about 10 php extensions, are noticing any issues

when i run anything via php command line it cores, and the gdb gives me 
this from the core file


55F_10_25_4_27# gdb /usr/local/bin/php php.core
GNU gdb 6.1.1 [FreeBSD]
Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and 
you are
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain 
conditions.
Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB.  Type "show warranty" for 
details.
This GDB was configured as "i386-marcel-freebsd"...(no debugging 
symbols found)...
Core was generated by `php'.
Program terminated with signal 6, Aborted.
Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.3...(no debugging 
symbols found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.3
Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libssl.so.3...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/libssl.so.3
Reading symbols from /lib/libcrypt.so.2...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /lib/libcrypt.so.2
Reading symbols from /lib/libm.so.3...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /lib/libm.so.3
Reading symbols from /lib/libc.so.5...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /lib/libc.so.5
Reading symbols from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.4...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.4
Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/php/20020429/interbase.so...(no 
debugging symbols found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/php/20020429/interbase.so
Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libfbembed.so.1...(no debugging 
symbols found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /usr/local/lib/libfbembed.so.1
Reading symbols from /lib/libncurses.so.5...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /lib/libncurses.so.5
Reading symbols from /libexec/ld-elf.so.1...(no debugging symbols 
found)...done.
Loaded symbols for /libexec/ld-elf.so.1
#0  0x2838237b in kill () from /lib/libc.so.5
(gdb) Quit



--
Steve Rieger
(212) 804-1131   (Work)
(646) 335-8915   (Cell)
chozrim           (aim)




From nomadlogic  Wed Jun  1 12:39:40 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:39:40 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <da5b176dffe45b8e6f83b3a066a59086@tbwachiat.com>
References: <da5b176dffe45b8e6f83b3a066a59086@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <57d71000050601093968d0f410@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> hi all am wondering is anybody else thats running fbsd 5.4 php4
> apache1, and about 10 php extensions, are noticing any issues
> 
> when i run anything via php command line it cores, and the gdb gives me
> this from the core file
> 
> 
> 55F_10_25_4_27# gdb /usr/local/bin/php php.core
> GNU gdb 6.1.1 [FreeBSD]
> Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
> GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and
> you are
> welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain
> conditions.
> Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
> There is absolutely no warranty for GDB.  Type "show warranty" for
> details.
> This GDB was configured as "i386-marcel-freebsd"...(no debugging
> symbols found)...
> Core was generated by `php'.
> Program terminated with signal 6, Aborted.

php exited with "signal 6", you may find reference to this in the
source code.  I'm guessing it's just segfaulting....


> Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.3...(no debugging
> symbols found)...done.

from here on out debugging support was not compiled into any of the
php modules.  Your best bet if you want to try debugging this code is
to recompile with debugging flags turned on.
<snipping rest of messages out>

I have have php running on a 5.4 system now, although the code is
being called by apache2, not apache 1.   I assume when you try to load
a "hello world" type php page you get an error.  If it does generate
an error is any info in there helpfull?

-p



-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From steve.rieger  Wed Jun  1 12:52:03 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:52:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <57d71000050601093968d0f410@mail.gmail.com>
References: <da5b176dffe45b8e6f83b3a066a59086@tbwachiat.com>
	<57d71000050601093968d0f410@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <faedb1d31bac8242aa2b55809bc7f5ce@tbwachiat.com>


On Jun 1, 2005, at 12:39 PM, pete wright wrote:
> php exited with "signal 6", you may find reference to this in the
> source code.  I'm guessing it's just segfaulting....
>
>
>> Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.3...(no debugging
>> symbols found)...done.
>
> from here on out debugging support was not compiled into any of the
> php modules.  Your best bet if you want to try debugging this code is
> to recompile with debugging flags turned on.
> <snipping rest of messages out>
>
> I have have php running on a 5.4 system now, although the code is
> being called by apache2, not apache 1.   I assume when you try to load
> a "hello world" type php page you get an error.  If it does generate
> an error is any info in there helpfull?
>
php will display properly via apache but when running via command line 
i get the above

example

#!/usr/local/bin/php
<?php
echo "test";
?>






From lists  Wed Jun  1 13:10:05 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:10:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <faedb1d31bac8242aa2b55809bc7f5ce@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1DdWjG3jkV-0004bp@mrelay.perfora.net>


> > php exited with "signal 6", you may find reference to this in the
> > source code.  I'm guessing it's just segfaulting....
> >
> >
> >> Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.3...(no debugging
> >> symbols found)...done.
> >
> > from here on out debugging support was not compiled into any of the
> > php modules.  Your best bet if you want to try debugging this code is
> > to recompile with debugging flags turned on.
> > <snipping rest of messages out>
> >
> > I have have php running on a 5.4 system now, although the code is
> > being called by apache2, not apache 1.   I assume when you try to load
> > a "hello world" type php page you get an error.  If it does generate
> > an error is any info in there helpfull?
> >
> php will display properly via apache but when running via command line
> i get the above
> 
> example
> 
> #!/usr/local/bin/php
> <?php
> echo "test";
> ?>

Did you compile PHP yourself?  Chances are it's a library version mismatch, usually seen when installing precompiled binaries, or rarely, from ports.


---
Hans Zaunere
President, Founder

New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org

AMP Technology
Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP






From steve.rieger  Wed Jun  1 14:07:52 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:07:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <0MKz5u-1DdWjG3jkV-0004bp@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz5u-1DdWjG3jkV-0004bp@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <82efe864390a43c7eac53f5d2ecc03af@tbwachiat.com>


On Jun 1, 2005, at 1:10 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote:

>
>>> php exited with "signal 6", you may find reference to this in the
>>> source code.  I'm guessing it's just segfaulting....
>>>
>>>
>>>> Reading symbols from /usr/local/lib/libcrypto.so.3...(no debugging
>>>> symbols found)...done.
>>>
>>> from here on out debugging support was not compiled into any of the
>>> php modules.  Your best bet if you want to try debugging this code is
>>> to recompile with debugging flags turned on.
>>> <snipping rest of messages out>
>>>
>>> I have have php running on a 5.4 system now, although the code is
>>> being called by apache2, not apache 1.   I assume when you try to 
>>> load
>>> a "hello world" type php page you get an error.  If it does generate
>>> an error is any info in there helpfull?
>>>
>> php will display properly via apache but when running via command line
>> i get the above
>>
>> example
>>
>> #!/usr/local/bin/php
>> <?php
>> echo "test";
>> ?>
>
> Did you compile PHP yourself?  Chances are it's a library version 
> mismatch, usually seen when installing precompiled binaries, or 
> rarely, from ports.
>
>

all from ports





From nomadlogic  Wed Jun  1 14:36:17 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:36:17 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <82efe864390a43c7eac53f5d2ecc03af@tbwachiat.com>
References: <0MKz5u-1DdWjG3jkV-0004bp@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<82efe864390a43c7eac53f5d2ecc03af@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <57d7100005060111363c311b5d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:

> >> php will display properly via apache but when running via command line
> >> i get the above
> >>
> >> example
> >>
> >> #!/usr/local/bin/php
> >> <?php
> >> echo "test";
> >> ?>
> >
> > Did you compile PHP yourself?  Chances are it's a library version
> > mismatch, usually seen when installing precompiled binaries, or
> > rarely, from ports.
> >
> >
> 
> all from ports
> 

hmm...i guess you did a cvsup /usr/ports before installing php.  also
which php port did you install?  I have mod_php5 installed with no
issues, but this is just the apache module not intended for stand
alone execution.You may need to install either /usr/ports/lang/php5 or
/usr/ports/lang/php5-cli to get the behaviour you are expecting.

-pete



-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From george  Wed Jun  1 15:14:46 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:14:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris OpenVPN and Firewall
Message-ID: <20050601191446.GA800@ixeon.local>

I'm planning my first Soekris deployment and was wondering how some
software fails when overloaded.  In both cases I'm planning to use
OpenBSD (or DFly) on a net4501 with a cflash card.

The first unit will only run pf rules with OpenVPN. I assume there is no
realistic limit to of the number of simultaneous (ie at least 1000s) VPN
connections, but a limit to the amount of total VPN throughput. What is
the upper limit and what happens as it is approached? Do people use some
pf rules to gracefully hit that upper limit?

The second unit will be for standard firewalling. I'm sure the available
bandwidth is quite high.

(There is no carp plans at the moment). Both units will do remote logging.
Is a 256Mb cflash a good size? Or should I consider 128, 512, 1G?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From steve.rieger  Wed Jun  1 15:44:48 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
Message-ID: <f2ddcb6d44a298b9e5094395e44f806a@tbwachiat.com>

hi all


am running fbsd 4.11 and 5.4 for apache

from what i see 4.11 is a bit more stable, but 5.4 has some better smp 
stuff built in to the kernel. i didnt run across many issues on 5.4 
that would prevent me from going production, and am therefore asking if 
anybody on this list has any valid reasons to stick to 4.11. from what 
i hear 6.x will be even betterm but i cant wait until then, actually i 
would rather not wait.





From mickey  Wed Jun  1 15:28:50 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:28:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <f2ddcb6d44a298b9e5094395e44f806a@tbwachiat.com> from Steve Rieger
	at "Jun 1, 2005 03:44:48 pm"
Message-ID: <200506011928.j51JSoNJ013787@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Steve Rieger:
> hi all
> 
> 
> am running fbsd 4.11 and 5.4 for apache
> 
> from what i see 4.11 is a bit more stable, but 5.4 has some better smp 
> stuff built in to the kernel. i didnt run across many issues on 5.4 
> that would prevent me from going production, and am therefore asking if 
> anybody on this list has any valid reasons to stick to 4.11. from what 
> i hear 6.x will be even betterm but i cant wait until then, actually i 
> would rather not wait.

of course 6.x is the way to go!
it's the latest new thing!

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From nomadlogic  Wed Jun  1 16:02:23 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:02:23 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <200506011928.j51JSoNJ013787@lucifier.net>
References: <f2ddcb6d44a298b9e5094395e44f806a@tbwachiat.com>
	<200506011928.j51JSoNJ013787@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <57d7100005060113024c5b9a75@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Steve Rieger:
> > hi all
> >
> >
> > am running fbsd 4.11 and 5.4 for apache
> >
> > from what i see 4.11 is a bit more stable, but 5.4 has some better smp
> > stuff built in to the kernel. i didnt run across many issues on 5.4
> > that would prevent me from going production, and am therefore asking if
> > anybody on this list has any valid reasons to stick to 4.11. from what
> > i hear 6.x will be even betterm but i cant wait until then, actually i
> > would rather not wait.
> 
> of course 6.x is the way to go!
> it's the latest new thing!
> 

heh..sure.  but if one is planning and building a new production
server/application would it not make sense to look at the release
schedule and plan your work accordingly?

http://www.freebsd.org/releng/index.html#schedule


-p



-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From mickey  Wed Jun  1 15:53:28 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:53:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <57d7100005060113024c5b9a75@mail.gmail.com> from pete wright at
	"Jun 1, 2005 01:02:23 pm"
Message-ID: <200506011953.j51JrTDW007983@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from pete wright:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> On 6/1/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Steve Rieger:
> > > hi all
> > >
> > >
> > > am running fbsd 4.11 and 5.4 for apache
> > >
> > > from what i see 4.11 is a bit more stable, but 5.4 has some better smp
> > > stuff built in to the kernel. i didnt run across many issues on 5.4
> > > that would prevent me from going production, and am therefore asking if
> > > anybody on this list has any valid reasons to stick to 4.11. from what
> > > i hear 6.x will be even betterm but i cant wait until then, actually i
> > > would rather not wait.
> > 
> > of course 6.x is the way to go!
> > it's the latest new thing!
> > 
> 
> heh..sure.  but if one is planning and building a new production
> server/application would it not make sense to look at the release
> schedule and plan your work accordingly?

1 2 3 check
SARCASM

tough crowd... (;

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From mspitzer  Wed Jun  1 16:11:29 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:11:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <82efe864390a43c7eac53f5d2ecc03af@tbwachiat.com>
References: <0MKz5u-1DdWjG3jkV-0004bp@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<82efe864390a43c7eac53f5d2ecc03af@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305060113111298e599@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> all from ports

how did you install, make install or portupgrade?  

marc
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nomadlogic  Wed Jun  1 16:16:30 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:16:30 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <200506011953.j51JrTDW007983@lucifier.net>
References: <57d7100005060113024c5b9a75@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506011953.j51JrTDW007983@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <57d7100005060113161c971f0f@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from pete wright:
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > On 6/1/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Steve Rieger:
> > > > hi all
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > am running fbsd 4.11 and 5.4 for apache
> > > >
> > > > from what i see 4.11 is a bit more stable, but 5.4 has some better smp
> > > > stuff built in to the kernel. i didnt run across many issues on 5.4
> > > > that would prevent me from going production, and am therefore asking if
> > > > anybody on this list has any valid reasons to stick to 4.11. from what
> > > > i hear 6.x will be even betterm but i cant wait until then, actually i
> > > > would rather not wait.
> > >
> > > of course 6.x is the way to go!
> > > it's the latest new thing!
> > >
> >
> > heh..sure.  but if one is planning and building a new production
> > server/application would it not make sense to look at the release
> > schedule and plan your work accordingly?
> 
> 1 2 3 check

(crickets ;p)

> SARCASM
> 
> tough crowd... (;
> 

yea, too much coffee...my fault.


-p



-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From mspitzer  Wed Jun  1 16:42:56 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:42:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] your tax dollars at work
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050601134251589fcb@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/index.html



From steve.rieger  Wed Jun  1 16:51:16 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:51:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305060113111298e599@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0MKz5u-1DdWjG3jkV-0004bp@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<82efe864390a43c7eac53f5d2ecc03af@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c305060113111298e599@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c3310aba75d20b93d1ac9bba1198e7b@tbwachiat.com>


On Jun 1, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On 6/1/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> all from ports
>
> how did you install, make install or portupgrade?
>
> marc
>

make install

did a cvsup prior, we are talking abour php4 and its installed from 
/usr/ports/lang/php4 nor mod_php4 also the mssql and the sybase 
extensions caused major errors with php so i removed them, am thinking 
that there is a issue with php4-oracle extension.






From ike  Wed Jun  1 16:53:46 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:53:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <57d7100005060113161c971f0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d7100005060113024c5b9a75@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506011953.j51JrTDW007983@lucifier.net>
	<57d7100005060113161c971f0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <229ad61fa1630acfdc6ac8bb0dbf67bf@lesmuug.org>

Wordemup All,

On Jun 1, 2005, at 4:16 PM, pete wright wrote:

>>
>> 1 2 3 check
>
> (crickets ;p)
>
>> SARCASM
>>
>> tough crowd... (;
>>
>
> yea, too much coffee...my fault.

I propose we start a SIG list, [nycbug-jokes] - for clarity's sake.

Who's with me on this one?!?!!?!

Rocket-
.ike





From marco  Wed Jun  1 16:54:56 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:54:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
Message-ID: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org>

New machine I have been slowly adding services to.  FreeBSD generic kernel.
Not in production yet, getting weird filesystem full errors.  
109% full infact :

dial# df -h
Filesystem     Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
/dev/ad4s1a    248M     43M    185M    19%    /
devfs          1.0K    1.0K      0B   100%    /dev
/dev/ad4s1e    248M     12K    228M     0%    /tmp
/dev/ad4s1f    9.7G    8.1G    784M    91%    /usr
/dev/ad4s1d    248M    248M    -20M   109%    /var

But /var is not so full: 

dial# du -sch /var/*
2.0K    /var/account
6.0K    /var/at
 12K    /var/backups
4.0K    /var/crash
4.0K    /var/cron
 46M    /var/db
2.0K    /var/empty
2.0K    /var/games
2.0K    /var/heimdal
1.0M    /var/log
 12K    /var/mail
4.0K    /var/msgs
 40K    /var/named
2.0K    /var/preserve
 32K    /var/run
2.0K    /var/rwho
 58K    /var/spool
 68K    /var/tmp
 20K    /var/yp
 48M    total

Any ideas what would be causing this ? 
What I should check ?

If I try to vi a file I get a /var filesystem full error.  However if I cp a
file to /var it goes no problem.  What am I missing ?? :)

-- 
Marco



From mickey  Wed Jun  1 16:40:34 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <229ad61fa1630acfdc6ac8bb0dbf67bf@lesmuug.org> from Isaac Levy at
	"Jun 1, 2005 04:53:46 pm"
Message-ID: <200506012040.j51KeYoZ030046@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Isaac Levy:
> Wordemup All,
> 
> On Jun 1, 2005, at 4:16 PM, pete wright wrote:
> 
> >>
> >> 1 2 3 check
> >
> > (crickets ;p)
> >
> >> SARCASM
> >>
> >> tough crowd... (;
> >>
> >
> > yea, too much coffee...my fault.
> 
> I propose we start a SIG list, [nycbug-jokes] - for clarity's sake.
> 
> Who's with me on this one?!?!!?!

hey i think you are posting into a wrong list already!
did you mean to send this into nycbugs-jokes?

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From mickey  Wed Jun  1 16:44:19 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:44:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org> from Marco Scoffier at "Jun
	1, 2005 04:54:56 pm"
Message-ID: <200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Marco Scoffier:
> New machine I have been slowly adding services to.  FreeBSD generic kernel.
> Not in production yet, getting weird filesystem full errors.  
> 109% full infact :
> 
> dial# df -h
> Filesystem     Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
> /dev/ad4s1a    248M     43M    185M    19%    /
> devfs          1.0K    1.0K      0B   100%    /dev
> /dev/ad4s1e    248M     12K    228M     0%    /tmp
> /dev/ad4s1f    9.7G    8.1G    784M    91%    /usr
> /dev/ad4s1d    248M    248M    -20M   109%    /var
> 
> But /var is not so full: 

you have an open but unlink(2)ed file somewhere.
use fstat(1) or that other thing ... lsof!

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From marco  Wed Jun  1 17:06:00 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:06:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>
References: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org>
	<200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <20050601210600.GC30307@foo.metm.org>

On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 04:44:19PM -0400, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
>Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Marco Scoffier:
>> New machine I have been slowly adding services to.  FreeBSD generic kernel.
>> Not in production yet, getting weird filesystem full errors.  
>> 109% full infact :
>> 
>> dial# df -h
>> Filesystem     Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
>> /dev/ad4s1a    248M     43M    185M    19%    /
>> devfs          1.0K    1.0K      0B   100%    /dev
>> /dev/ad4s1e    248M     12K    228M     0%    /tmp
>> /dev/ad4s1f    9.7G    8.1G    784M    91%    /usr
>> /dev/ad4s1d    248M    248M    -20M   109%    /var
>> 
>> But /var is not so full: 
>
>you have an open but unlink(2)ed file somewhere.
>use fstat(1) or that other thing ... lsof!

Yep found it.  I had opened a huge log in vi in another xterm and
and forgot about the vi session then removed the huge log file. 

Thanks Mickey,

-- 
Marco



From lists  Wed Jun  1 17:08:52 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:08:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <9c3310aba75d20b93d1ac9bba1198e7b@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1DdaSM1BQ2-0004c1@mrelay.perfora.net>


> make install
> 
> did a cvsup prior, we are talking abour php4 and its installed from
> /usr/ports/lang/php4 nor mod_php4 also the mssql and the sybase
> extensions caused major errors with php so i removed them, am thinking
> that there is a issue with php4-oracle extension.

Yeah, probably - since you likely don't have Oracle running on your FreeBSD box.

I love the ports system, but when dealing with PHP, just compile PHP itself.  Using ports to install the needed libraries is great, but with PHP just use ./configure and set the extensions you want.

H






From steve.rieger  Wed Jun  1 17:12:07 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:12:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <0MKz5u-1DdaSM1BQ2-0004c1@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKz5u-1DdaSM1BQ2-0004c1@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <972b4122d84e04538081af5500749efa@tbwachiat.com>


On Jun 1, 2005, at 5:08 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote:

>
>> make install
>>
>> did a cvsup prior, we are talking abour php4 and its installed from
>> /usr/ports/lang/php4 nor mod_php4 also the mssql and the sybase
>> extensions caused major errors with php so i removed them, am thinking
>> that there is a issue with php4-oracle extension.
>
> Yeah, probably - since you likely don't have Oracle running on your 
> FreeBSD box.
>
> I love the ports system, but when dealing with PHP, just compile PHP 
> itself.  Using ports to install the needed libraries is great, but 
> with PHP just use ./configure and set the extensions you want.
>
> H
>
>
>

on this note,

is ther an option something like (just grabbing at thin air here. make 
source that will download the source for me, or do i do it as usual and 
grab the source code etc....


just wondering






From nomadlogic  Wed Jun  1 17:25:16 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:25:16 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] your tax dollars at work
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050601134251589fcb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c3050601134251589fcb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d71000050601142543fd094c@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/1/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/index.html

wow...that's actually not too bad.  it's even on one page so you can
search for your os.

-p

-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From lists  Wed Jun  1 21:25:37 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] postgres success/failed install
In-Reply-To: <1a8976a224260222f25cde5aba867c0a@jobsforge.com>
References: <1a8976a224260222f25cde5aba867c0a@jobsforge.com>
Message-ID: <20050601210457.G88666@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 31 May 2005, Matthew Terenzio wrote:

> also running  /usr/local/etc/rc.d/010.pgsql.sh initdb looks like it just 
> shoots blanks.

As someone else mentioned you need change your /etc/rc.conf and add
postgresql_enable="YES"

In addition as far as I remember you run initdb by itself.
You may also want to consider having a ~/.cshr for the pgsql user like

set path = ( /usr/local/bin $path )
setenv PGLIB /usr/local/lib

# note: PGDATA can be overridden by the -D startup option
setenv PGDATA $HOME/data
setenv PGUSER pgsql
setenv PGPASSWORD your_user_password


Hope that helps.



From lists  Wed Jun  1 21:28:22 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:28:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] thoughts on stability
In-Reply-To: <f2ddcb6d44a298b9e5094395e44f806a@tbwachiat.com>
References: <f2ddcb6d44a298b9e5094395e44f806a@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20050601212641.Y88666@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Steve Rieger wrote:

> from what i see 4.11 is a bit more stable,

And you based that comment on?
First hand experience?

> but 5.4 has some better smp stuff 
> built in to the kernel.

Although you can continue to use 4.X for as long as you want, the sooner 
you move to 5.X probably the better you will be long term. I skipped 5.X 
till 5.3 and have had very few problems, but my environment at all the 
machines I run is fairly simple and with not much of a load.



From lists  Wed Jun  1 22:01:55 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <20050601215208.P88666@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>
	<20050601215208.P88666@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050601220136.W88666@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> you have an open but unlink(2)ed file somewhere.
> use fstat(1) or that other thing ... lsof!

How would one use fstat to see that open file?
The output of fstat didn't look very friendly.. is there a flag that at least 
shows only one line per file? Man fstat didn't seem to show anything like 
that... The same for lsof.

I guess one could use cut/sort/uniq on a script as a worst case scenario.




From lists  Wed Jun  1 22:30:49 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Social networking sites
Message-ID: <20050601222841.P89899@zoraida.natserv.net>

Recently I found a social networking site called LinkedIn.com
I was wondering what type of experience others in the NY-Tri state area 
have had with this or any other social networking sites.

Any good to find jobs?
So far the only good thing I have found is a long list of head hunters. 
:-)

However given that I want to remain an independant contractor, not sure 
how much that helps.. Some of the head hunters do seem to find contracts 
so at least those have some potential benefit.




From nikolai.fetissov  Thu Jun  2 00:26:18 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:26:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] June meeting audio
Message-ID: <1188.24.44.76.146.1117686378.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

Get the mp3 of Phillip's presentation
at http://www.peachisland.com/nycbug/
-- 
 nick



From ike  Thu Jun  2 01:51:42 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:51:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php 4 on freebsd 5.4 coring
In-Reply-To: <972b4122d84e04538081af5500749efa@tbwachiat.com>
References: <0MKz5u-1DdaSM1BQ2-0004c1@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<972b4122d84e04538081af5500749efa@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <1118b88f8d9f386d408d7f8a50fe84ee@lesmuug.org>

Wordemup Steve, Hans, All,

On Jun 1, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Steve Rieger wrote:

> on this note,
>
> is ther an option something like (just grabbing at thin air here. make 
> source that will download the source for me, or do i do it as usual 
> and grab the source code etc....
>
>
> just wondering

Yeah!  what has become one of my faves- Apache Toolbox:

http://www.apachetoolbox.com/

It's written in bash scripts, very hackable, (or at the very least, 
auditable by mere mortals), and does the PHP/modSSL install dance quite 
nicely.

For AMP setups in the 1.x era Apache I really dig this thing- but 
moving slowly across to Apache2 more and more myself...  Makes quick 
clean work out of setting everything up, and it has config files which 
can be repeatedly used to roll out installs from box to box.

Rocket-
.ike




From joshmccormack  Thu Jun  2 08:48:22 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:48:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Social networking sites
In-Reply-To: <20050601222841.P89899@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050601222841.P89899@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <429F0016.7010402@travelersdiary.com>

I'd call sites like these (linkedin, ryze, ecademy, etc) business 
networking sites rather than social networking (friendster, etc).

I use LinkedIn quite a bit. It's allowed me to pitch some ideas to 
companies I had no contact with, and has helped me move along some 
business ideas I've had.

Josh

Francisco Reyes wrote:
> Recently I found a social networking site called LinkedIn.com
> I was wondering what type of experience others in the NY-Tri state area 
> have had with this or any other social networking sites.
> 
> Any good to find jobs?
> So far the only good thing I have found is a long list of head hunters. :-)
> 
> However given that I want to remain an independant contractor, not sure 
> how much that helps.. Some of the head hunters do seem to find contracts 
> so at least those have some potential benefit.



From hanulec  Thu Jun  2 10:15:16 2005
From: hanulec (Michael Hanulec)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:15:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris OpenVPN and Firewall
In-Reply-To: <20050601191446.GA800@ixeon.local>
References: <20050601191446.GA800@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506021009310.5711@mika.hanulec.com>

George..

While I haven't used OpenVPN yet I would recommend looking at either the 
Soekris 4801 or the PC Engine Wrap 1 series as they have 266MHz 
processors.  There is a review of the PC Engine unit here:

http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Reviews-169-ProdID-WRAP1D2.php

W/in the review a problem was showing in how FreeBSD was handling the 
network ports on the Soekris box.

I'm currently working with the PC Engine units and OpenBSD to make some 1U 
firewall solutions.

-Mike

--
hanulec at hanulec.com		cell: 858.518.2647 && 516.410.4478
http://www.hanulec.com                EFnet irc && aol im: hanulec

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, George Georgalis wrote:

> I'm planning my first Soekris deployment and was wondering how some
> software fails when overloaded.  In both cases I'm planning to use
> OpenBSD (or DFly) on a net4501 with a cflash card.
>
> The first unit will only run pf rules with OpenVPN. I assume there is no
> realistic limit to of the number of simultaneous (ie at least 1000s) VPN
> connections, but a limit to the amount of total VPN throughput. What is
> the upper limit and what happens as it is approached? Do people use some
> pf rules to gracefully hit that upper limit?
>
> The second unit will be for standard firewalling. I'm sure the available
> bandwidth is quite high.
>
> (There is no carp plans at the moment). Both units will do remote logging.
> Is a 256Mb cflash a good size? Or should I consider 128, 512, 1G?
>
> // George
>
>
> -- 
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>
>



From george  Thu Jun  2 12:30:45 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:30:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris OpenVPN and Firewall
In-Reply-To: <1117691358.25766.235464098@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <20050601191446.GA800@ixeon.local>
	<1117691358.25766.235464098@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20050602163045.GH953@ixeon.local>

On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 01:49:18AM -0400, Fred Noz wrote:
>George,
>
>Remember the NYCBUG talk about installing OpenBSD on a Soekris
>about a year ago?  The presenter was using a 512 MB compact flash
>card.  He said he had to rip out a lot to get OpenBSD to fit
>on the 512 MB card.  256MB might be pushing it a little!

Humm, was that Pete? I wonder what he was doing... looking at
du -sh /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/include /usr/sbin/ /etc /usr/lib /kernel /modules /boot

I get about 170Mb before any stripping. To that add OpenVPN and any
dependencies, a custom smaller kernel/modules and I'm thinking 256 would
be easy, and 128 might be doable with not too much effort.

Or maybe I'm missing something, is OpenBSD much bigger?

# du -sh /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/include /usr/sbin/ /etc /usr/lib /kernel /modules /boot
4.4M    /bin
 13M    /sbin
 16M    /usr/bin
 13M    /usr/include
 12M    /usr/sbin/
1.3M    /etc
 36M    /usr/lib
 21M    /kernel
 40M    /modules
737K    /boot

>Throw /tmp and /var/run into an mfs partition.

okay.

>I have not tried Soekris myself yet.

I just joined their lists (talk/announce), will lurk over there a bit.


>Are you going to use a crypto accelerator card?

I hadn't considered it. But maybe it would be a good idea, this won't be
heavily used, but 10 or 30Mb transfers won't be uncommon either, I just
don't have any idea at which point it becomes a bottle neck and what
happens during overload.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Thu Jun  2 12:34:09 2005
From: george (george at rob.us.to)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:34:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] development/IP/opensource/freesource articles
Message-ID: <200506021634.j52GY9Ja025954@localhost.localdomain>

Two open/free source related articles below: ying and yang, FSF and 
Open Source, Free Software/Society and Access to Knowledge

-george

*************************************************************************
                  FREE SOFTWARE, FREE SOCIETY
*************************************************************************

The Free Software Free Society Conference held at
Thiruvananthapuramduring May 28-29 adopted a declaration that called
upon the socialand political institutions to eliminate systems that
hinder thedevelopment of the gnowledge society (see www.gnowledge.org).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

FREE SOFTWARE, FREE SOCIETY

The Thiruvananthapuram Declaration

May 29, 2005

We are currently living in a world that is increasingly getting interconnected
and the issues of our concern are becoming global. Along the way, new
Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) transformed the process of
knowledge construction and dissemination in our society. This process is
transforming other fields of human creativity as well ?   including music,
painting or writing. Human history is calling us to take note of this change.
Creative works today live in a digital world, travel at the speed of light, get
transformed in seconds, become part of several other creations, and grow in a
number of other ways.

As society transforms drastically, we ?   students, engineers, IT
professionals, social activists, lawyers, elected public representatives, media
persons, film-makers and concerned citizens ?   urge our world to take note of
the immense potential opening up for humanity, and to ensure that technology is
harnessed in the needs of the time to tackle the wider concerns of our planet.

Free Software has convincingly demonstrated to the world we know that knowledge
building is enhanced by freedom, openness and social consciousness; and that
such features are very effective in creating a fairer society and enhance the
cause of the social good.

In the new networked and digitized society, the intangible (non-materialistic)
aspects of reality are becoming more important in comparison with the material
ones. Several years of material-centered development has not helped humanity to
create a better world for all; or even for the majority on this planet.

To face the challenges of the day, we need a new model of development centered
around non material aspects of life ?   including collaboration, sharing, and
compassion. Such a society is evolving today on the foundations of freedom,
collaboration and shared knowledge.

We call it the gnowledge society (see http://www.gnowledge.org).

In our view, the gnowledge society will and must prefer:

freedom over bondage; sharing over monopoly; public good over private profit;
participation over exclusion; cooperation over competition; diversity over
uniformity.

We find that patent, copyright and other legal and institutional systems
related to human knowledge are not suitable for the development of the
gnowledge society. These systems were created during the industrial revolution,
and then continued in spite of major changes in how technology shapes our
lives. These systems were not designed for, and therefore cannot cater to, the
emerging gnowledge society. For the development of human society, it is
imperative that we promote the collaborative development and free sharing of
knowledge.

Such principles are not only consistent with, but even mandated by, the spirit
of human rights as defined by the present legal system.

We, the participants at the Free Software, Free Society conference in
Thiruvananthapuram underline the following:

We call upon the social and political institutions to eliminate systems that
hinder the development of the gnowledge society.

We demand that every human being works for a more fair distribution of
knowledge for all, and for a world based on knowledge sharing and
collaboration.

Agreed upon in Thiruvananthapuram, South India, amongst the participants at the
Free Software, Free Society Conference, by participants from the countries of:

Bangladesh,
Brazil,
India,
Italy,
Norway
Uruguay
Venezuela.

*************************************************************************
           OPEN SOURCE RELATED ARTICLE
*************************************************************************

An OK to A2K

Kaye Stearman reports on the progress towards a draft treaty on Access
to Knowledge ? A2K.

In September 2004 an expert group of academics, educators,
representatives of libraries, consumer organisations, the open source
movement and others gathered in Geneva to discuss reform the World
Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). The meeting laid down a
challenge to WIPO to reform rules relating to intellectual property
(IP), such as copyright and patents. The problem is that the balance of
some IP rules have shifted too far towards the protection of
rights-holders, and removed the traditional rights of users.

A major problem was how to provide wider access to knowledge, especially
for poorer consumers in developing countries. A second meeting in Geneva
in February 2005 determined that the world needed a new treaty, or at
least principles, to redress this imbalance as part of a `development
agenda?. Led by the Consumer Project on Technology (CPTech), an expert
group began drafting a Treaty on Access to Knowledge

A third meeting convened at Queen Mary College in London on 12-13 May
2005 to take the draft forward. Of around one hundred participants
around half were academic or legal experts, and half represented
consumer and user groups. A substantial minority came from developing
countries, including Brazil, India, Kenya, Malaysia South Africa and
Zimbabwe. All were keen to listen, learn and argue points of law and
substance.

Felix Cohen, Vice-President of Consumers International, declared the
meeting open and gave a brief account of what the gathering hoped to
accomplish. After introductions the first sessions began by considering
the Preamble, Objectives and Purposes as laid out in the draft treaty.
Speaker after speaker delivered their views - a few at length but most
in a crisp and succinct manner. Inevitably, the focus was on the areas
of contention and disagreement. Even so, few pieces of text escaped
comment or analysis.

After the opening session the meeting considered the detailed provisions
laid out in each of the sections of the draft treaty. The process
continued relentlessly over the two days - each session driven by
pressures from the chairs, urging speakers to be pointed in their
assessments and short in their speech. It is a tribute to the chairs
that the analysis was completed on time and recorded in every detail.

The term ?Access to Knowledge? is a simple and positive slogan to bring
together many concerns about the current rules and trends in IP.
However, by the end of the meeting, even the most fastidious legal
brains had started to use the shorter and trendier ?A2K?. Despite the
cold May weather, many participants joined Ben Wallis from the
TransAtlantic Consumer Dialogue (TACD) in sporting a brightly coloured
tee shirt festooned with A2K slogans,. It shows that, despite
disagreements about details, the A2K concept is something that everyone
can agree on.

So where does the draft Treaty go from here? The next step will be to
incorporate all the amendments, additions, omissions and other suggested
changes to produce a new draft that will be circulated to meeting
participants for final comments. When this has been completed, the draft
can be presented to governments and promoted around the world, maybe
even at the WIPO General Assembly in September 2005. Ultimately, it is
hoped that the treaty, or at least the ideas that are driving it, will
be adopted and ratified by WIPO, and incorporated into national laws and
a modern way of looking at intellectual property.

Many thanks to the Rockerfeller Foundation, the Open Society Institute
and the John D and Catherine T MacArthur Foundation for their financial
support of the event, and to the Queen Mary IP Research Institute for
hosting the meeting at their Mile End campus.

For further information contact Ben Wallis at TACD at:
bwallis at consint.org or look on www.cptech.org/a2k

   Kaye Stearman, Consumers International, 2005.

*************************************************************************



From lists  Thu Jun  2 13:04:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Thu,  2 Jun 2005 19:04:01 +0200
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Que and Sams Open Source User Group Newsletter
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1Ddt8r3lBl-0000qu@mrelay.perfora.net>


Subject: Que and Sams Open Source User Group Newsletter
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:52:46 -0500

************************************************************
*  If you can see this, your e-mail reader cannot display  *
*  HTML. You can read the Newsletter on the site at        *
*  http://www.samspublishing.com/osugnewsletter            *
************************************************************



From george  Thu Jun  2 13:07:14 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:07:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris OpenVPN and Firewall
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506021009310.5711@mika.hanulec.com>
References: <20050601191446.GA800@ixeon.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0506021009310.5711@mika.hanulec.com>
Message-ID: <20050602170714.GL953@ixeon.local>

On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 10:15:16AM -0400, Michael Hanulec wrote:
>George..
>
>While I haven't used OpenVPN yet I would recommend looking at either the 
>Soekris 4801 or the PC Engine Wrap 1 series as they have 266MHz 
>processors.  There is a review of the PC Engine unit here:
>
>http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Reviews-169-ProdID-WRAP1D2.php

Yep, I think the 4801 is actually the one I had in mind.  The Engine
Wrap is interesting but hard to compare price because of the smaller
memory. I don't think it's worth it...

Looks like the vpn1401 and vpn1411 accelerators will bring vpn rates
up to 250Mbps... should handle 30 Mb files just fine. :)

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From jfreeman  Thu Jun  2 14:24:52 2005
From: jfreeman (Joshua S. Freeman)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:24:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] great meeting..
Message-ID: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I just want to express my appreciation to George for emceeing/hosting an
excellent meeting and stammtisch last night featuring Phillip Moore.  It
was TOTALLY worth the effort of getting there from way out in the
Bronx..

:-)

Cheers,

Joshua



From george  Thu Jun  2 14:32:55 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:32:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colo List
Message-ID: <429F50D7.5020907@sddi.net>

As mentioned last night, we have created a list for managing the cabinet 
at New York Internet.

Once again, big thanks to NYI for providing us with the space. . .

http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/nycbugcolo

g



From ike  Thu Jun  2 15:07:20 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:07:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] great meeting..
In-Reply-To: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <eab815b24ba2e878ad07711c121e2e0b@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 2, 2005, at 2:24 PM, Joshua S. Freeman wrote:

> an excellent meeting

+1

Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Thu Jun  2 15:18:26 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Social networking sites
In-Reply-To: <429F0016.7010402@travelersdiary.com>
References: <20050601222841.P89899@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<429F0016.7010402@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <20050602151557.V730@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Josh McCormack wrote:

> I'd call sites like these (linkedin, ryze, ecademy, etc) business networking 
> sites rather than social networking (friendster, etc).

I found linkedin through an article and they used that term. Although I do 
think that there is a certain level of social networking in linkedin (will 
check the rest).

How does linkedin compared to others? Are the others worth checking too?

> I use LinkedIn quite a bit. It's allowed me to pitch some ideas to companies 
> I had no contact with, and has helped me move along some business ideas I've 
> had.

Any of those leads ever translated into actual work/income?



From lists  Thu Jun  2 15:21:01 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 15:21:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colo List
In-Reply-To: <429F50D7.5020907@sddi.net>
References: <429F50D7.5020907@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050602152017.C730@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:

> As mentioned last night, we have created a list for managing the cabinet at 
> New York Internet.

Is this list open?
Volunteers needed? What type of commitment we talking about?



From george  Thu Jun  2 15:20:37 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:20:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Colo List
In-Reply-To: <20050602152017.C730@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <429F50D7.5020907@sddi.net>
	<20050602152017.C730@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <429F5C05.9010506@sddi.net>

Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> 
>> As mentioned last night, we have created a list for managing the 
>> cabinet at New York Internet.
> 
> 
> Is this list open?

for now. . . yes.

> Volunteers needed? What type of commitment we talking about?

sure. . .

we don't know.

we'll need to maintain the hardware and software on a number of boxes.

right now there's only obsd anoncvs box, dealt with by Mickey@, plus a 
box donated by Pete, currently of LA, which we'll use for some jails.

We are looking for more hardware donations, rackmountable boxes 
preferred, of course.

It would be great to provide the list with usage numbers, etc.

But again, this is all for the colo list. . .

g



From george  Thu Jun  2 16:54:07 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:54:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] www.nycbug.org
Message-ID: <429F71EF.2040706@sddi.net>

Oooops.  Forgot to mention last night that www.nycbug.org hit an 
all-time high of about 138,000 hits for May 2005.

Pretty significant. . .

We're even up to 357,237 on Netcraft. . . <g>

g



From nomadlogic  Thu Jun  2 17:27:54 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:27:54 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Soekris OpenVPN and Firewall
In-Reply-To: <20050602163045.GH953@ixeon.local>
References: <20050601191446.GA800@ixeon.local>
	<1117691358.25766.235464098@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<20050602163045.GH953@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <57d710000506021427627e8ee1@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/2/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 01:49:18AM -0400, Fred Noz wrote:
> >George,
> >
> >Remember the NYCBUG talk about installing OpenBSD on a Soekris
> >about a year ago?  The presenter was using a 512 MB compact flash
> >card.  He said he had to rip out a lot to get OpenBSD to fit
> >on the 512 MB card.  256MB might be pushing it a little!
> 
> Humm, was that Pete? I wonder what he was doing... looking at
> du -sh /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/include /usr/sbin/ /etc /usr/lib /kernel /modules /boot
> 

hmm...i wish I remember too ;)  As of now I'm running 3.7 on a 256meg
card with no issues.  Just install the base and etc .tgz's.  No misc,
mans or compilers.  Those things can be shared via nfs is necc. IMO.


-p

-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From trish  Thu Jun  2 17:33:52 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:33:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <20050601210600.GC30307@foo.metm.org>
References: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org>
	<200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>
	<20050601210600.GC30307@foo.metm.org>
Message-ID: <20050602172920.V731@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Marco Scoffier wrote:

>> you have an open but unlink(2)ed file somewhere.
>> use fstat(1) or that other thing ... lsof!
>
> Yep found it.  I had opened a huge log in vi in another xterm and
> and forgot about the vi session then removed the huge log file.
>
> Thanks Mickey,
>

A little history: Mickey and I were part of the first beer-drinkin' food 
eatin' F/BUNY 
(it was FUNY, changed to BUNY after we branched out from FreeBSD to all 
BSD)....

I still have the original web pages of the original BSD User group in NYC. 
I met Mickey in '99 I think...

wow, ancient history now...

It wasn;t the same as this user group, it was primarily social, and did 
things like take DES, and Luigi Rizzo to dinner when they were here from 
out of town, and then we manned the BSD advocacy booths at all the NYC 
LWCE events for a little while. (and The Bazaar)

its hard to believe I've been involved with the BSD community almost 10 
years now...

-Trish

-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From george  Thu Jun  2 17:43:08 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:43:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <20050602172920.V731@ultra.bsdunix.net>
References: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org>	<200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>	<20050601210600.GC30307@foo.metm.org>
	<20050602172920.V731@ultra.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <429F7D6C.1090600@sddi.net>

Trish Lynch wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Marco Scoffier wrote:
> 
>>> you have an open but unlink(2)ed file somewhere.
>>> use fstat(1) or that other thing ... lsof!
>>
>>
>> Yep found it.  I had opened a huge log in vi in another xterm and
>> and forgot about the vi session then removed the huge log file.
>>
>> Thanks Mickey,
>>
> 
> A little history: Mickey and I were part of the first beer-drinkin' food 
> eatin' F/BUNY (it was FUNY, changed to BUNY after we branched out from 
> FreeBSD to all BSD)....
> 
> I still have the original web pages of the original BSD User group in 
> NYC. I met Mickey in '99 I think...

maybe we could get the old FUNY/BUNY site up from on NYCBUG at some 
point. . . for historical continuity reasons.

> 
> wow, ancient history now...
> 
> It wasn;t the same as this user group, it was primarily social, and did 
> things like take DES, and Luigi Rizzo to dinner when they were here from 
> out of town, and then we manned the BSD advocacy booths at all the NYC 
> LWCE events for a little while. (and The Bazaar)

Nice. . . we're not really social since most of us don't talk to each 
other. <g> yeah, right. . .

> 
> its hard to believe I've been involved with the BSD community almost 10 
> years now...

and hopefully, when your schedule permits TL, we can have you do a 
meeting for us. . .

g



From trish  Thu Jun  2 17:49:36 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:49:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Old Fogeys - was Re: FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <429F7D6C.1090600@sddi.net>
References: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org>
	<200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>
	<20050601210600.GC30307@foo.metm.org>
	<20050602172920.V731@ultra.bsdunix.net> <429F7D6C.1090600@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050602174800.L731@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:

>> 
>> its hard to believe I've been involved with the BSD community almost 10 
>> years now...
>
> and hopefully, when your schedule permits TL, we can have you do a meeting 
> for us. . .
>
> g
>

I'd love to, unfortunately the meetings fall on the weeks I have my son.

I'll talk to Shana and see if she'll mind watching him while I go there 
and toot my Emmy-winning horn :)

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From george  Thu Jun  2 17:52:31 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:52:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Old Fogeys - was Re: FreeBSD 5.4 weirdness
In-Reply-To: <20050602174800.L731@ultra.bsdunix.net>
References: <20050601205456.GB30307@foo.metm.org>
	<200506012044.j51KiJwc025376@lucifier.net>
	<20050601210600.GC30307@foo.metm.org>
	<20050602172920.V731@ultra.bsdunix.net> <429F7D6C.1090600@sddi.net>
	<20050602174800.L731@ultra.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <429F7F9F.5060102@sddi.net>

Trish Lynch wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> its hard to believe I've been involved with the BSD community almost 
>>> 10 years now...
>>
>>
>> and hopefully, when your schedule permits TL, we can have you do a 
>> meeting for us. . .
>>
>> g
>>
> 
> I'd love to, unfortunately the meetings fall on the weeks I have my son.

I know, and understand the situation. . .

> I'll talk to Shana and see if she'll mind watching him while I go there 
> and toot my Emmy-winning horn :)

that would be cool.  let me know. . . the next slot open is sept, i 
think. . .

g



From george  Thu Jun  2 19:01:14 2005
From: george (george at rob.us.to)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:01:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] development/IP/opensource/freesource articles
References: <200506021634.j52GY9Ja025954@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200506022301.j52N1EML031250@localhost.localdomain>

I guess Professor Moglen, Esq. is gearing up his legal clinic for free
software.  I posted something about this in February to the list.  I
don't recall a web site in the article but today I saw a job posting
on idealist.org for an office manager at the clinic which cited his
web site, softwarefreedom.org.

Below is a screen dump from the team members page:

Some tidbits too:

Members: Eben Moglen (FSF), 
	 Diane M. Peters (who worked for the 'Law and Economics' 7th 
                          Federal Judicial Circuit), 
         Lawrence Lessig, Daniel
         Daniel J. Weitzner (CDT,EFF), 
         Daniel B. Ravicher (Echoing Green Foundation PUBPAT grantee), 
         Bradley M. Kuhn (not a lawyer)

"We provide legal representation and other law related services to
 protect and advance Free and Open Source Software."

-george m

Ps. I really enjoyed the meeting too: thanks George and Phillip

****************************************************************
[frdm] Software Freedom Law Center

(212) 580-0800 tel
(212) 854-7946 fax
help at softwarefreedom.org

Board of Directors

Eben Moglen, Chairman

Professor of Law and Legal History at Columbia University Law School and
General Counsel of the Free Software Foundation. In addition to FSF, Professor
Moglen has represented many of the world's leading Free Software developers.
Professor Moglen earned his PhD in History and law degree at Yale University
during what he sometimes calls his "long, dark period" in New Haven. After law
school he clerked for Judge Edward Weinfeld of the United States District Court
in New York City and to Justice Thurgood Marshall of the United States Supreme
Court. He has taught at Columbia Law School ? and has held visiting
appointments at Harvard University, Tel-Aviv University and the University of
Virginia ? since 1987. In 2003 he was given the Electronic Frontier
Foundation's Pioneer Award for efforts on behalf of freedom in the electronic
society.

Diane M. Peters, Director

General Counsel of Open Source Development Labs ("OSDL"), the central body
dedicated to accelerating the use of Linux for enterprise computing. As General
Counsel, Ms. Peters is responsible for all of OSDL's legal operations and
affairs, including overseeing legal affairs for OSDL's operations in Japan and
China. Prior to joining OSDL, Ms. Peters practiced law at Ater Wynne LLP in
Portland. Ms. Peters earned a B.A. in political science from Grinnell College
in 1986, and a J.D. from Washington University School of Law in 1989, where she
served as an executive editor of the Washington University Law Quarterly. After
law school, Ms. Peters clerked for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th
Circuit in Chicago.

Lawrence Lessig, Director

Professor of Law at Stanford Law School and founder of the school's Center for
Internet and Society. Prior to joining the Stanford faculty, he was the Berkman
Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. Professor Lessig was also a fellow at
the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin, and a Professor at the University of Chicago
Law School. He clerked for Judge Richard Posner on the 7th Circuit Court of
Appeals and Justice Antonin Scalia on the United States Supreme Court.
Professor Lessig earned a BA in economics and a BS in management from the
University of Pennsylvania, an MA in philosophy from Cambridge, and a JD from
Yale.

Daniel J. Weitzner, Director

Director of the World Wide Web Consortium's ("W3C") Technology and Society
activities where he is responsible for development of technology standards that
enable the web to address social, legal, and public policy concerns such as
privacy, free speech, security, protection of minors, authentication,
intellectual property and identification. Mr. Weitzner holds an appointment as
Principal Research Scientist at MIT's Computer Science and Artificial
Intelligence Laboratory and teaches Internet public policy at MIT. Prior to
joining the W3C, Mr. Weitzner was co-founder and Deputy Director of the Center
for Democracy and Technology, a leading Internet civil liberties organization
in Washington, DC. He was also Deputy Policy Director of the Electronic
Frontier Foundation. Mr. Weitzner has a degree in law from Buffalo Law School,
and a B.A. in Philosophy from Swarthmore College.

Management

Eben Moglen, Director-Counsel

See above under Board of Directors.

Daniel B. Ravicher, Legal Director

Executive Director and Founder of the Public Patent Foundation ("PUBPAT"),
Senior Counsel to the Free Software Foundation ("FSF") and a registered patent
attorney. A significant portion of Mr. Ravicher's practice involves Free and
Open Source Software legal issues, most particularly licensing and patent
counseling. In addition to representing FSF and other clients on these matters,
Mr. Ravicher has published numerous legal articles and given dozens of
presentations regarding both Free and Open Source Software legal issues and
patent law. Prior to founding PUBPAT, Mr. Ravicher was associated with Skadden,
Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP, Brobeck, Phleger & Harrison, LLP, and
Patterson, Belknap, Webb & Tyler, LLP, all in New York, and served the
Honorable Randall R. Rader, Circuit Judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the
Federal Circuit in Washington, D.C. Mr. Ravicher received his law degree from
the University of Virginia School of Law, where he was the Franklin O. Blechman
Scholar for his class, a Mortimer Caplin Public Service Award recipient and
Editor of the Virginia Journal of Law and Technology, and his bachelors degree
in materials science magna cum laude with University Honors from the University
of South Florida.

Bradley M. Kuhn, Chief Technology Officer

Bradley M. Kuhn began his work in the Free Software Movement as a volunteer for
the Free Software Foundation (FSF) in the mid-1990s. In 1992, he became an
early adopter of the popular GNU/Linux operating system, and over the years he
has contributed to numerous Free Software projects. He worked during the 1990s
as a system administrator and software development consultant on Free Software
systems for both large companies such Westinghouse and Lucent Technologies, as
well as numerous small companies. He also spent one year teaching Advanced
Placement Computer Science, using GNU/Linux and GCC, at Walnut Hills High
School in Cincinnati. In early 2000, he was hired to work for FSF, and he
served as its Executive Director from March 2001 until March 2005. Kuhn holds a
summa cum laude B.S. in Computer Science from Loyola College in Maryland, and
an M.S. in Computer Science from the University of Cincinnati. His Master's
thesis discussed methods for dynamic interoperability of Free Software
languages.

  * Mission
  * Team
  * Services
  * Press
  * Internship

This site is licensed under a Creative Commons License. View our privacy policy
.
Design by Quilted.




From george  Thu Jun  2 19:17:26 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:17:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Canadian TV on the OBSD Hackathon
Message-ID: <429F9386.3030500@sddi.net>

The clips we couldn't get audio for last night are here:

http://openbsd.org/press.html

On the third clip, a nice sound byte from Mickey. . .

It's kind of ironic that the OBSD developers consider themselves so 
anti-marketing, when they do seem to be the best at it. . .

;-)

g



From lists  Thu Jun  2 20:45:35 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:45:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Reporting issues with site nycbug
Message-ID: <20050602204433.L2715@zoraida.natserv.net>

Is this the best place to list issues/bugs with the site?

If not, who is the best contact?

In the BSDtracker page the link to external sites doesn't take to the 
external site, but back to the entry at the BSDtracker. Is this the way 
it's supposed to work?




From j  Thu Jun  2 21:13:56 2005
From: j (Freeman, Joshua)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:13:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
Message-ID: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E05029101EB@xmail.nybg.org>

The New York Botanical Gardens has several buildings with large HVAC installations.  Most of these installations have control consoles from Anderson Control Systems (well... Anderson SOMETHING).

Our operations department has recently been talking to companies that sell systems wherein you have a PC at a centralized location (i.e. NOT one of the boiler rooms, but a quiet office somewhere) running software which enables you to see and manage all of the different control systems set up to manage your HVAC installations.

As I understand it, located near each boiler system is a box with a board in it and some kind of onboard storage with an LCD interface where you set the thermostat and other controls related to managing the system.  This box has an RS485 serial interface.  

The companies that do this stuff basically sell you some kind of RS485-to-Ethernet conversion/interface box .. you network all of your standalone RS485 control units to this master conversion interface box and then the box is on the network and you use client software to control it (switch between the different local control units) and upload your adjustments and changes to the local control units via the ethernet-to-the-RS485 network...

You get the idea, hopefully..

I was all fired up by Phil Moore's talk at the NYCBUG meeting last night.

I'm gonna start googling and checking out freshmeat now.. but I was wondering if anyone on either of these lists knew ANYTHING about this stuff and would be willing to think through what it might take to create an open source version of this....

cheers,

J.

Joshua S. Freeman
Director, Information Technology, NYBG
v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560
jfreeman at nybg dot org





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From j  Thu Jun  2 21:33:30 2005
From: j (Freeman, Joshua)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:33:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] addenda to my HVAC control system post
Message-ID: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E05029101EC@xmail.nybg.org>

I've already found a couple of promising links.

This one explains all about RS485:

http://www.hw.cz/english/docs/rs485/rs485.html


This one is for a guy who seems to be on the same wavelength:

http://www.connel.com/freeware/index.shtml


Joshua S. Freeman
Director, Information Technology, NYBG
v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560
jfreeman at nybg dot org





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From george  Thu Jun  2 21:46:13 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:46:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] www.nycbug.org
In-Reply-To: <20050602203803.K2715@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <429F71EF.2040706@sddi.net>
	<20050602203803.K2715@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <429FB665.8000304@sddi.net>

Francisco wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> 
>> Oooops.  Forgot to mention last night that www.nycbug.org hit an 
>> all-time high of about 138,000 hits for May 2005.
>> Pretty significant. . .
> 
> 
> Indeed.. but how can we make it even more popular?
> In terms of valuable resources that people can come back for I see:
> * BSD tracker
> * Dmesgd

Yup. . . that's true. . . but we'd like to go beyond.

Both mentioned sections are popular.

the DMESGD for people checking compatibility, BSD Tracker as the 
beginning of an accumulation of resources on firms using or supporting BSDs.

> 
> The articles sections and other sections I am not sure of their value 
> since they need more content.
> 
> Also it would be nice to be able to add comments to an article. :-)

Good point, but as you mentioned above, we need more content. . .

So Francisco, are you volunteering to manage submissions? ;-)

g




From george  Thu Jun  2 21:46:41 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:46:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Reporting issues with site nycbug
In-Reply-To: <20050602204433.L2715@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050602204433.L2715@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <429FB681.1090104@sddi.net>

Francisco Reyes wrote:
> Is this the best place to list issues/bugs with the site?
> 
> If not, who is the best contact?
> 
> In the BSDtracker page the link to external sites doesn't take to the 
> external site, but back to the entry at the BSDtracker. Is this the way 
> it's supposed to work?

the submission page goes to the NYCBUG admin group, including our www 
master.

g



From lists  Thu Jun  2 22:32:35 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:32:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Reporting issues with site nycbug
In-Reply-To: <429FB681.1090104@sddi.net>
References: <20050602204433.L2715@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<429FB681.1090104@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050602223144.O3756@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:

> the submission page goes to the NYCBUG admin group, including our www master.

Great.
Perhaps a "Website Feedback" category may be helpfull.



From lists  Thu Jun  2 22:35:28 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:35:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] www.nycbug.org
In-Reply-To: <429FB665.8000304@sddi.net>
References: <429F71EF.2040706@sddi.net>
	<20050602203803.K2715@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<429FB665.8000304@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050602223350.G3756@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:

> So Francisco, are you volunteering to manage submissions? ;-)

What  would it entitle?
Depending on how much work it is I could help out.



From alex  Thu Jun  2 22:27:42 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E05029101EB@xmail.nybg.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022226510.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Freeman, Joshua wrote:

> The New York Botanical Gardens has several buildings with large HVAC
> installations.  Most of these installations have control consoles from
> Anderson Control Systems (well... Anderson SOMETHING).
> 
> Our operations department has recently been talking to companies that
> sell systems wherein you have a PC at a centralized location (i.e. NOT
> one of the boiler rooms, but a quiet office somewhere) running software
> which enables you to see and manage all of the different control systems
> set up to manage your HVAC installations.
> 
> As I understand it, located near each boiler system is a box with a
> board in it and some kind of onboard storage with an LCD interface where
> you set the thermostat and other controls related to managing the
> system.  This box has an RS485 serial interface.
> 
> The companies that do this stuff basically sell you some kind of
> RS485-to-Ethernet conversion/interface box .. you network all of your
> standalone RS485 control units to this master conversion interface box
> and then the box is on the network and you use client software to
> control it (switch between the different local control units) and upload
> your adjustments and changes to the local control units via the
> ethernet-to-the-RS485 network...
> 
> You get the idea, hopefully..
> 
> I was all fired up by Phil Moore's talk at the NYCBUG meeting last
> night.
> 
> I'm gonna start googling and checking out freshmeat now.. but I was
> wondering if anyone on either of these lists knew ANYTHING about this
> stuff and would be willing to think through what it might take to create
> an open source version of this....
I doubt there is anything like that, and since this is really vertical 
market-specific, whether anyone will be interesting in doing anything like 
that for *you* for free.

Open Source solutions for vertical markets are rare.

-alex




From george  Thu Jun  2 23:44:54 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:44:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] our site hosting. . .
Message-ID: <429FD236.8000009@sddi.net>

As an fyi to our colo discussion. . .our site and mailman are still on 
pilosoft's network, in nyphp jails and we're appreciate of the 
continuing roll that pilosoft has played in hosting NY user groups. 
This includes NYLUG, LISP-NYC, New York PHP. . .

credit should go where it's due on that stuff . . . both pilosoft and 
new york php were critical to our launching. . .

Now, we're looking to get things up in our cabinet at NYI, and it may be 
worth keeping the site rsync'd in both locations. . .

g



From george  Thu Jun  2 23:58:43 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:58:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022226510.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022226510.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <429FD573.2070503@sddi.net>


>>I'm gonna start googling and checking out freshmeat now.. but I was
>>wondering if anyone on either of these lists knew ANYTHING about this
>>stuff and would be willing to think through what it might take to create
>>an open source version of this....
> 
> I doubt there is anything like that, and since this is really vertical 
> market-specific, whether anyone will be interesting in doing anything like 
> that for *you* for free.
> 
> Open Source solutions for vertical markets are rare.

Oh, that vertical market thing again. . . land of proprietary software <g>.

I have been around HVAC land a bit, and have never heard of anything 
you're looking for Josh.

Actually, do some heavy googling because FBSD's PHK is apparently doing 
many things in that arena with Soekris boxes. . .

But you'd have to agree with Alex that it seems frivilous to go this 
route.  It might make sense to figure out getting data over RS485 to a 
box, then what would allow you to tail the data over that route. . .

g



From alex  Thu Jun  2 22:55:07 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:55:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <429FD573.2070503@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022249330.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:

> Actually, do some heavy googling because FBSD's PHK is apparently doing
> many things in that arena with Soekris boxes. . .
> 
> But you'd have to agree with Alex that it seems frivilous to go this
> route.  It might make sense to figure out getting data over RS485 to a
> box, then what would allow you to tail the data over that route. . .
Bottom line is, when your open source-picked thing fails and sets the
building on fire by setting your HVAC to heat instead of cool, what will
you tell the board members?

RS-485 interface is fairly low-level and you can control specific parts of 
the unit via that.

This isn't linux on desktop, kids. This is real stuff. Code fails, things 
catch fire.

-alex




From george  Fri Jun  3 00:12:33 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:12:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022249330.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022249330.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <429FD8B1.5020708@sddi.net>

alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> 
> 
>>Actually, do some heavy googling because FBSD's PHK is apparently doing
>>many things in that arena with Soekris boxes. . .
>>
>>But you'd have to agree with Alex that it seems frivilous to go this
>>route.  It might make sense to figure out getting data over RS485 to a
>>box, then what would allow you to tail the data over that route. . .
> 
> Bottom line is, when your open source-picked thing fails and sets the
> building on fire by setting your HVAC to heat instead of cool, what will
> you tell the board members?
> 
> RS-485 interface is fairly low-level and you can control specific parts of 
> the unit via that.
> 
> This isn't linux on desktop, kids. This is real stuff. Code fails, things 
> catch fire.

No, we're not talking about a linux desktop, nor a pace-maker. . . 
AFAIK, we're talking about logging info *from* a number of HVACs that 
probably aren't very closely monitored right now. . . Just like most 
people find that their UPS batteries are dead in a power outage, most 
people only realize HVAC problems when they note the loud repetitive beep.

So yelling fire in an empty theater just won't do. . . ;-)

Unless I'm wrong and that JF is looking to actually do more than watch 
the logs. . .

PS: Alex, http://openntpd.org/. . . it's driving me nuts since most of 
us, i'm sure, have our mail sorted by date. . .

g



From alex  Thu Jun  2 23:07:20 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 23:07:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <1117772202.14791.3.camel@stat29.mrbrklyn.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022306000.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Ruben Safir wrote:

> Pretty much the same thing you would say when your proprietary stuff
> does that.  How about Nuclear Subs?
you blame the vendor, and lawsuits start flying.

when you *are* the vendor, you get blamed, and/or fired and/or sued for 
negligence.

-alex




From ike  Fri Jun  3 01:21:14 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:21:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] development/IP/opensource/freesource articles
In-Reply-To: <200506021634.j52GY9Ja025954@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200506021634.j52GY9Ja025954@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <73a33138667191b77a91271a6ef0768d@lesmuug.org>

Hey there,

On Jun 2, 2005, at 12:34 PM, george at rob.us.to wrote:

> Two open/free source related articles below: ying and yang, FSF and
> Open Source, Free Software/Society and Access to Knowledge
>
> -george
>
> *********************************************************************** 
> **
>                   FREE SOFTWARE, FREE SOCIETY
> *********************************************************************** 
> **

<snip>

I'm not meaning to sound rude, but why were these articles posted to  
list?  I mean, Open Source stuff is definitely relevant, but it's a bit  
much to get some big texts without getting even brief context as to why  
they're relevant on this list, so I know why I'd want to read it-  
(besides it's sitting staring at me from my inbox, like 100 pieces of  
other unread mail...)

I'm not meaning to discourage interesting article re-posts here, but  
I'm just groping for context- and I'd think most folks on list have a  
lot of info to deal with daily...

Rocket-
.ike




From joshmccormack  Fri Jun  3 08:08:18 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:08:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Social networking sites
In-Reply-To: <20050602151557.V730@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050601222841.P89899@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<429F0016.7010402@travelersdiary.com>
	<20050602151557.V730@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42A04832.7060703@travelersdiary.com>



Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Josh McCormack wrote:
> 
<snip>
> How does linkedin compared to others? Are the others worth checking too?
> 

I've looked into the others, and didn't find them to be as good. More 
MLM, less obvious ways to get results.

<snip>
  > Any of those leads ever translated into actual work/income?

Short answer, no. It has allowed me to talk to people at places where I 
didn't know anyone, to gather info. It got me much further along  in a 
few pitches than I ever would have gotten without it. And I've made some 
  connections who have been very helpful with some ideas I'm trying to 
develop.

Josh




From lists  Fri Jun  3 09:44:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Fri,  3 Jun 2005 15:44:01 +0200
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1DeCUs1Zfe-0001al@mrelay.perfora.net>


Begin forwarded message:

Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:17:37 -0700
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, June 2

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
June 2, 2005
================================================================
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-Essential Sharepoint
-Killer Game Programming in Java
-Classic Shell Scripting
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-Learning Java, 3rd Edition
-DHTML Utopia
SSH, The Secure Shell: The Definitive Guide, 2nd Edition
-Degunking Linux
-Designing Embedded Hardware, 2nd Edition
-Database in Depth
-MySQL in a Nutshell
-MAKE Subscriptions Available
----------------------------------------------------------------
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-Adam Goldstein ("AppleScript: The Missing Manual"), SoHo Apple Store, 
 New York, NY--June 3
-O'Reilly at Tech Ed 2005, Orlando, FL--Jun 5-10
-O'Reilly at Apple WWDC, San Francisco, CA--June 6-10
-Sinan Si Alhir ("UML in a Nutshell"), UML & Design World 2005, 
 Austin, TX--June 13-16
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 Fairborn, OH--July 25
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  Portland, OR--August 1-5
-Where 2.0 Conference Registration Open, 
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-"Cult of Mac" and "Degunking Windows" Win IPPY Awards
-E3 2005: War of the Consoles...Almost
-Mapping the 802.11 Protocol
-Embedded-system Programmers Must Learn the Fundamentals
-Rendering Everything as Text
-A Simpler Ajax Path
-Rexx: Power Through Simplicity
-Learning Lab: Linux/Unix SysAdmin Certificate Special
-An Introduction to Tiger Terminal
-Japan Primer for the Mac Techno-Tourist
-20 Cool Tiger Features You Might Not Have Heard About
-Refactoring Support for Visual Basic 2005
-Ferreting Out Near-Identical Records in Access
-Building Web Parts, Part 1
-Constructing Services with J2EE
-Wire Hibernate Transactions in Spring
-Look Ma--Hands! Choosing and Using MIDI Controllers
-Steve Turnidge: Turning Weed into Green
-Consumer Camera Time-Lapse Movies
-DHTML Utopia: Modern Web Design
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***"Cult of Mac" and "Degunking Windows" Win IPPY Awards
Congratulation to No Starch Press and Paraglyph Press for winning the
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---------------------
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save
40%.
http://www.oreilly.com/redirector.csp?link=UASys&type=news

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***An Introduction to Tiger Terminal 
Now that you've had a chance to enjoy all of the GUI goodies in Mac OS X
10.4, you might be ready to check out what's happening with the Terminal
app. This article will introduce you to Tiger's Terminal app and CLI
(command-line interface).
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/05/20/terminal1.html


***Japan Primer for the Mac Techno-Tourist 
Many of us believe that Japan is the land of geek nirvana. If you're
contemplating a visit to the gadget promise land, you'll enjoy Todd
Ogasawara's report on everything from cell phone coverage to buying Mac
accessories.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/05/27/japan.html


***20 Cool Tiger Features You Might Not Have Heard About 
Even though Tiger has been out for a while now, many of its major
features
have nuances that haven't received much press--and there are a zillion
minor tweaks to discuss. Scott Knaster takes you on a tour of clever,
and
sometimes even obscure Tiger goodies.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/05/13/tiger_tips.html

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***Refactoring Support for Visual Basic 2005 
Microsoft recently announced that they have teamed up with Developer
Express Inc. to release Refactor! for Visual Basic 2005 Beta 2, a free
plugin for Visual Studio that enables Visual Basic developers to
simplify
and restructure source code inside of Visual Studio 2005. Wei-Meng Lee
walks you through the new refactoring.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/05/31/vbrefactoring.html


***Ferreting Out Near-Identical Records in Access 
Working with lists of contacts is a common database activity, but as a
list grows, so do the chances for duplicate records. Ken Bluttman shows
one technique for ferreting out these near-identical records in Access
using the InStr function to find when one value in one field is inside
the
value of the same field in another record. Ken is the author of "Access
Hacks."
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/05/24/accesshacks.html


***Building Web Parts, Part 1 
Web sites today contain a wealth of information; so much that a poorly
designed site can easily overwhelm users. To better help users cope,
portal web sites today (such as MSN) often organize their data into
discrete units that support a degree of personalization. In this first
of
three articles, Wei-Meng Lee discusses how to use Web Parts for user
customization in your ASP.NET 2.0 web sites.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/05/23/webparts_1.html

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Constructing Services with J2EE 
Web services are a popular means of deploying service-oriented
applications, and the standards in J2EE 1.4 make it easier to develop
services that are portable and interoperable. Debu Panda shows you how,
and takes a look at how things will get easier in J2EE 5.0.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/05/25/j2ee-services.html


***Wire Hibernate Transactions in Spring 
The proper handling of transactions across multiple data stores,
supporting multiple application flows, is the kind of heavy lifting J2EE
servers were built for. But what if you're using the lighter-weight
Spring
framework? Binildas C.A. shows how you can wire Spring and Hibernate
together to achieve the transaction support you desire.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/05/18/swingxactions.html

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***Look Ma--Hands! Choosing and Using MIDI Controllers
If you really want to play today's wonderful software instruments, drop
that mouse and grab a dedicated MIDI controller. In this MP3-enhanced
tutorial, you'll hear the dramatic difference controllers make in
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expressivity, then get buying and usage tips.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/06/01/controller1.html

***Steve Turnidge: Turning Weed into Green
Go behind the scenes with the co-founder of Weedshare.com, the service
that pays you--and the original artist--to share music. Driven by
ex-Microsoft and Real Networks employees, Weed is totally legal, and
even
supports surround sound.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/05/25/weed.html

***Consumer Camera Time-Lapse Movies
Pocket digicams are great for still photos, and some of them even record
quality video. But you can push the envelope even further with these
devices. Here's how two photo novices created their first time-lapse
production.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/05/18/timelapse.html

---------------------
Web
---------------------
***DHTML Utopia: Modern Web Design
What do Flickr, Google Suggest, Google Maps, and GMail have in common?
They all employ some of the latest methods in modern, unobtrusive DHTML.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/dhtml-utopia-modern-web-design


***Search Engines Know More Than You Think
Learn how Google's personalized web search and Yahoo's Mindset work and
how they take searching to a whole new level.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view.php?id=268282

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***MAKE: Audio 
The MAKE Team thought it would be fun to talk with pal Richard Giles in
Australia. They chatted about MAKE Volume 02, E3, Astromechs, VoIP for
the
Nintendo DS, NASA's O2 challenge, the XBOX 360, Broadcast Flag part 2,
and
more. Next up, they interview Jordan Kanarek and Jim Garretson from
roadcasting.org. What's roadcasting? Interactive, collaborative, mobile
radio stations for cars. It could be a glimpse of what's to come for our
daily commutes! 
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/make_podcast/


***MAKE Flickr
Join the MAKE Flickr photo pool today. You never know what you'll see or
what we'll be giving away next! Where else can you see a potato cannon
in
action?
http://www.flickr.com/groups/make/pool/


***MAKE del.icio.us
On the MAKE bookmark page, there are over 1,500 links to hacks, mods,
DIY
projects, and all-around tinkering goodness. Be a MAKE voyeur and read
what we're reading.
http://del.icio.us/makemagazine

This week's faves include:

Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach
http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/

Abusing Amazon Images
http://aaugh.com/imageabuse.html

WSJ on Gaming
http://www.oreilly.com/go/wsj_on_gaming

How to Stock Your Bar for a Party
http://www.degraeve.com/howto/stock-your-bar.php

***The MAKE blog is available at:
http://www.makezine.com/blog/


================================================
>From Your Peers
===============================================
***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user
groups
around the globe are up to:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi



================================================================
O'Reilly 
1005 Gravenstein Highway North  
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://www.oreilly.com
================================================================


--



From mickey  Fri Jun  3 10:16:52 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:16:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022249330.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com> from
	"alex@pilosoft.com" at "Jun 2, 2005 10:55:07 pm"
Message-ID: <200506031416.j53EGqPg013515@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from alex at pilosoft.com:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> 
> > Actually, do some heavy googling because FBSD's PHK is apparently doing
> > many things in that arena with Soekris boxes. . .
> > 
> > But you'd have to agree with Alex that it seems frivilous to go this
> > route.  It might make sense to figure out getting data over RS485 to a
> > box, then what would allow you to tail the data over that route. . .
> Bottom line is, when your open source-picked thing fails and sets the
> building on fire by setting your HVAC to heat instead of cool, what will
> you tell the board members?

this is typical american boolshit.
what does it matter who to blame?
or do you mean "commercial" software does not fail?
every single commercial piece of software is a pile of poo.
and guess what? there is nothing you can do about it.
you live w/ it and that gives you false sense of security
and makes you think it will just work because there
is no other choice and if it does not you will find your way
around to make it _kinda_ do what you want.
and you live w/ it blaming the vendor for your own
inability to make things work...

> RS-485 interface is fairly low-level and you can control specific parts of 
> the unit via that.
> 
> This isn't linux on desktop, kids. This is real stuff. Code fails, things 
> catch fire.

yes and real stuff is not about this stupid bigotry
it's about YOU making sure it WORKS before YOU
deploy it into USE irregardless of what it's made of.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From mickey  Fri Jun  3 10:21:19 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:21:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Canadian TV on the OBSD Hackathon
In-Reply-To: <429F9386.3030500@sddi.net> from George at "Jun 2, 2005 07:17:26
	pm"
Message-ID: <200506031421.j53ELJnX028150@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from George:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> The clips we couldn't get audio for last night are here:
> 
> http://openbsd.org/press.html
> 
> On the third clip, a nice sound byte from Mickey. . .
> 
> It's kind of ironic that the OBSD developers consider themselves so 
> anti-marketing, when they do seem to be the best at it. . .

hey. it's TV.
they cut out 90% of fun stuff and made it look what they want.
accidentally it does not look too bad (:

btw. on this subject.
these clips are a living proof that america is a 3rd world country.
we get three times less downloads than the european location. (;

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From dan  Fri Jun  3 10:46:30 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:46:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Canadian TV on the OBSD Hackathon
In-Reply-To: <200506031421.j53ELJnX028150@lucifier.net>
References: <429F9386.3030500@sddi.net> from George at "Jun 2,
	2005 07:17:26	pm"
Message-ID: <42A03506.27266.3830D073@localhost>

On 3 Jun 2005 at 10:21, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from George:
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > The clips we couldn't get audio for last night are here:
> > 
> > http://openbsd.org/press.html
> > 
> > On the third clip, a nice sound byte from Mickey. . .
> > 
> > It's kind of ironic that the OBSD developers consider themselves so
> > anti-marketing, when they do seem to be the best at it. . .
> 
> hey. it's TV.
> they cut out 90% of fun stuff and made it look what they want.
> accidentally it does not look too bad (:

Pretty impressive to get this on the TV.  Well done.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From max  Fri Jun  3 10:56:36 2005
From: max (max)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:56:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.2.1 to 5.3 compile issues
Message-ID: <20050603145636.GA66692@neuropunks.org>

Hello,
Im trying to upgrade from 5.2.1 to 5.3 on sparc64, and the thing wont compile. I looked for this same error on google, and I sure found plenty of reference to this, but no  solution other than "check your checked out cvs source and re-check it out". Ill tell ya right away, that doesnt work.
I used UPDATING.64BIT and made sure time is still 32bit, so thats not that. 
May be some .h files arent right 
Any light on this is so appreciated..
This is on sparc ultra5:

--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> stage 2.3: build tools
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC;  MAKESRCPATH=/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm  /usr/obj/usr/src/make.sparc64/make -DNO_CPU_CFLAGS -f /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/Makefile
Warning: Object directory not changed from original /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm  -c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm.c
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm  -c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c
Warning: Object directory not changed from original /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm  -c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm.c
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm  -c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function `symbol_delete':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:91: warning: passing arg 2 of pointer to function from incompatible pointer type
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:91: error: too few arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function `symtable_open':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:135: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function `symtable_close':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: structure has no member named `seq'
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: `R_FIRST' undeclared (first use in this function)
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: for each function it appears in.)
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:157: error: too few arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function `symtable_get':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:176: warning: passing arg 2 of pointer to function from incompatible pointer type
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:176: error: too few arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:189: warning: passing arg 2 of pointer to function from incompatible pointer type
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:189: error: too few arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function `symtable_dump':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:486: error: `R_FIRST' undeclared (first use in this function)
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:487: error: structure has no member named `seq'
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:524: error: `R_NEXT' undeclared (first use in this function)
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src.





From lists  Fri Jun  3 10:58:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Fri,  3 Jun 2005 16:58:01 +0200
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[nycbug-talk]_Reporting_issues_with_site_nycbug?=
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1DeDeU2fdI-00061N@mrelay.perfora.net>


On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:32:35 -0400 (EDT)
Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> 
> > the submission page goes to the NYCBUG admin group, including our www master.
> 
> Great.
> Perhaps a "Website Feedback" category may be helpfull.


Sorry, you got pointed in the wrong direction.  

Originally, we had all submissions to NYCBUG in one form.  But there
were complaints so.. we left Submissions where it was and created a
separate "FEEDBACK / CONTACT US / WEB SITE SUGGESTIONS" NYCBUG Contact
form on the About Page.

Michael



From george  Fri Jun  3 11:09:49 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 11:09:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E05029101EB@xmail.nybg.org>
References: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E05029101EB@xmail.nybg.org>
Message-ID: <20050603150949.GB8105@ixeon.local>



On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 09:13:56PM -0400, Freeman, Joshua wrote:

>Our operations department has recently been talking to companies that
>sell systems wherein you have a PC at a centralized location (i.e. NOT
>one of the boiler rooms, but a quiet office somewhere) running software
>which enables you to see and manage all of the different control
>systems set up to manage your HVAC installations.
>
>As I understand it, located near each boiler system is a box with a
>board in it and some kind of onboard storage with an LCD interface
>where you set the thermostat and other controls related to managing the
>system.  This box has an RS485 serial interface.


As far as monitoring goes, the WeatherDuck seems pretty cool, or
possibly the Weathergoose from http://www.itwatchdogs.com/
-- I love these names, anybody try them?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From bob  Fri Jun  3 11:47:58 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:47:58 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <20050603150949.GB8105@ixeon.local>
References: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E05029101EB@xmail.nybg.org>
	<20050603150949.GB8105@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <90FF7032-C8AE-472B-B462-4AE94659F24C@redivi.com>


On Jun 3, 2005, at 8:09 AM, George Georgalis wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 09:13:56PM -0400, Freeman, Joshua wrote:
>
>
>> Our operations department has recently been talking to companies that
>> sell systems wherein you have a PC at a centralized location (i.e.  
>> NOT
>> one of the boiler rooms, but a quiet office somewhere) running  
>> software
>> which enables you to see and manage all of the different control
>> systems set up to manage your HVAC installations.
>>
>> As I understand it, located near each boiler system is a box with a
>> board in it and some kind of onboard storage with an LCD interface
>> where you set the thermostat and other controls related to  
>> managing the
>> system.  This box has an RS485 serial interface.
>>
>
>
> As far as monitoring goes, the WeatherDuck seems pretty cool, or
> possibly the Weathergoose from http://www.itwatchdogs.com/
> -- I love these names, anybody try them?

The Nagios <http://www.nagios.org/> guys are also pimping some HVAC  
monitoring hardware from ESensors <http://www.nagios.org/products/ 
environmental/esensors/em01.php>.

-bob




From rcollins  Fri Jun  3 12:18:17 2005
From: rcollins (Robert J Collins)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:18:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <90FF7032-C8AE-472B-B462-4AE94659F24C@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20050603162032.30ABDA862D@virtu.nyphp.org>

I don't think the original poster meant HVAC sensors, but HVAC controls.
They do more than just detect temp/humidity/etc. You can actually control
the equipment. For example, Andover Controls uses a piece of software called
continuum. I don't use it much, but from what I've seen using continuum you
can shutdown condensors, close ducts and deactivate smoke/heat detectors.
Cool stuff.

I know even less about cross posting than I do about HVAC. Hopefully the
nylug-talk users won't get a:
"[nylug-talk] [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software" subject. I
apologize in advance if I've caused a bit of chaos.

-rcollins

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Ippolito
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:48 AM
> To: George Georgalis
> Cc: NYCBUG discussion list; nylug-talk at nylug.org
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
> 
> 
> On Jun 3, 2005, at 8:09 AM, George Georgalis wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 09:13:56PM -0400, Freeman, Joshua wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Our operations department has recently been talking to 
> companies that 
> >> sell systems wherein you have a PC at a centralized location (i.e.
> >> NOT
> >> one of the boiler rooms, but a quiet office somewhere) running 
> >> software which enables you to see and manage all of the different 
> >> control systems set up to manage your HVAC installations.
> >>
> >> As I understand it, located near each boiler system is a 
> box with a 
> >> board in it and some kind of onboard storage with an LCD interface 
> >> where you set the thermostat and other controls related to 
> managing 
> >> the system.  This box has an RS485 serial interface.
> >>
> >
> >
> > As far as monitoring goes, the WeatherDuck seems pretty cool, or
> > possibly the Weathergoose from http://www.itwatchdogs.com/
> > -- I love these names, anybody try them?
> 
> The Nagios <http://www.nagios.org/> guys are also pimping some HVAC  
> monitoring hardware from ESensors <http://www.nagios.org/products/ 
> environmental/esensors/em01.php>.
> 
> -bob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 





From g  Fri Jun  3 12:51:50 2005
From: g (Gordon Smith)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:51:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.2.1 to 5.3 compile issues
In-Reply-To: <20050603145636.GA66692@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <0IHI00EXZPIFWQ@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Max,

<disclaimer>
The following is intended to be generic C language compilation debugging
info, *not* FreeBSD build-specific info; I hope the info is at least
somewhat helpful.
</disclaimer>

One explanation: the nature of the error messages suggest that the source
file 
	aicasm_symbol.c
contains an #include directive that refers to an incorrect version of a
header file.  My guess would be that you either need to obtain a different
version of one of the header files that have been #included in the C source,
or that you may need to somehow specify another include directory that would
contain the correct version of the required header file via the -I option of
the cc command.  

It may be possible that a missing build directive would fix the problem by
specifying the correct header file or header file directory.

If you feel comfortable poking around in the source, you might want to get a
list of all the .h files in aicasm_symbol.c and find the directories in
which all those specific .h files are stored for your platform.  Not sure
how you would then relate that to specific build directives that would
include the correct file(s)...

Bear in mind that this may only be a part of the explanation.  If online
documentation and forums are of no help, as a last resort you may want to
consider contacting the FreeBSD staff responsible for porting to your
platform - but by all means, hit the forums first.

Sorry I didn't have a more direct answer.

Hope This Helps,
Gordon Smith

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org]
On Behalf Of max
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 10:57 AM
To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 5.2.1 to 5.3 compile issues

Hello,
Im trying to upgrade from 5.2.1 to 5.3 on sparc64, and the thing wont
compile. I looked for this same error on google, and I sure found plenty of
reference to this, but no  solution other than "check your checked out cvs
source and re-check it out". Ill tell ya right away, that doesnt work.
I used UPDATING.64BIT and made sure time is still 32bit, so thats not that. 
May be some .h files arent right 
Any light on this is so appreciated..
This is on sparc ultra5:

--------------------------------------------------------------
>>> stage 2.3: build tools
--------------------------------------------------------------
cd /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC;
MAKESRCPATH=/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm
/usr/obj/usr/src/make.sparc64/make -DNO_CPU_CFLAGS -f
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/Makefile
Warning: Object directory not changed from original
/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm
-c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm.c
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm
-c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c
Warning: Object directory not changed from original
/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm
-c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm.c
cc -O -pipe -nostdinc -I/usr/include -I. -I/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm
-c /usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function
`symbol_delete':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:91: warning: passing arg 2
of pointer to function from incompatible pointer type
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:91: error: too few arguments
to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function
`symtable_open':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:135: warning: assignment
makes pointer from integer without a cast
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function
`symtable_close':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: structure has no
member named `seq'
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: `R_FIRST'
undeclared (first use in this function)
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: (Each undeclared
identifier is reported only once
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:151: error: for each
function it appears in.)
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:157: error: too few
arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function `symtable_get':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:176: warning: passing arg 2
of pointer to function from incompatible pointer type
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:176: error: too few
arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:189: warning: passing arg 2
of pointer to function from incompatible pointer type
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:189: error: too few
arguments to function
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c: In function
`symtable_dump':
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:486: error: `R_FIRST'
undeclared (first use in this function)
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:487: error: structure has no
member named `seq'
/usr/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/aicasm/aicasm_symbol.c:524: error: `R_NEXT'
undeclared (first use in this function)
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/src.


_______________________________________________
% NYC*BUG talk mailing list
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
%Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
%We meet the first Wednesday of the month




From mspitzer  Fri Jun  3 12:56:47 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 12:56:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <200506031416.j53EGqPg013515@lucifier.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022249330.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<200506031416.j53EGqPg013515@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050603095645e15cc9@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from alex at pilosoft.com:
> > On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, do some heavy googling because FBSD's PHK is apparently doing
> > > many things in that arena with Soekris boxes. . .
> > >
> > > But you'd have to agree with Alex that it seems frivilous to go this
> > > route.  It might make sense to figure out getting data over RS485 to a
> > > box, then what would allow you to tail the data over that route. . .
> > Bottom line is, when your open source-picked thing fails and sets the
> > building on fire by setting your HVAC to heat instead of cool, what will
> > you tell the board members?
> 
> this is typical american boolshit.
> what does it matter who to blame?

Micky & Alex,

You guys are saying the same thing in completley different ways.  Its
all about managing risk and expense to the business and in cases where
there can be lose of life, serious harm done or major property dammage
how do I not go to jail if things go way wrong.

you are both optimizing for "not go to jail" in completly different manners.  

Although I think Mickys POV is the better one.

marc



> or do you mean "commercial" software does not fail?
> every single commercial piece of software is a pile of poo.
> and guess what? there is nothing you can do about it.
> you live w/ it and that gives you false sense of security
> and makes you think it will just work because there
> is no other choice and if it does not you will find your way
> around to make it _kinda_ do what you want.
> and you live w/ it blaming the vendor for your own
> inability to make things work...
> 
> > RS-485 interface is fairly low-level and you can control specific parts of
> > the unit via that.
> >
> > This isn't linux on desktop, kids. This is real stuff. Code fails, things
> > catch fire.
> 
> yes and real stuff is not about this stupid bigotry
> it's about YOU making sure it WORKS before YOU
> deploy it into USE irregardless of what it's made of.
> 
> cu
> 
> --
>     paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From njt  Fri Jun  3 13:24:00 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:24:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] great meeting..
In-Reply-To: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20050603172400.GB30872@ayvali.org>

* Joshua S. Freeman <jfreeman at nybg.org> [2005-06-02 14:24:52 -0400]:
> I just want to express my appreciation to George for emceeing/hosting
> an excellent meeting and stammtisch last night featuring Phillip
> Moore.

I concur, Phil was a most excellent speaker -- he held our attention so
well that the hour flew by very quickly.

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From george  Fri Jun  3 13:29:28 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:29:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <20050603162032.30ABDA862D@virtu.nyphp.org>
References: <90FF7032-C8AE-472B-B462-4AE94659F24C@redivi.com>
	<20050603162032.30ABDA862D@virtu.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <20050603172928.GC8266@ixeon.local>

On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 12:18:17PM -0400, Robert J Collins wrote:
>I don't think the original poster meant HVAC sensors, but HVAC controls.

Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if I should use smoke dectors, or temp
sensors alone when I set the bit on the relay for the sprinklers... ;)

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From ike  Fri Jun  3 13:46:06 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:46:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050603095645e15cc9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506022249330.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<200506031416.j53EGqPg013515@lucifier.net>
	<8c50a3c3050603095645e15cc9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a052b576a6759c64e39c72213774f56@lesmuug.org>

Hi All,

On Jun 3, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> You guys are saying the same thing in completley different ways.  Its
> all about managing risk and expense to the business and in cases where
> there can be lose of life, serious harm done or major property dammage
> how do I not go to jail if things go way wrong.
>
> you are both optimizing for "not go to jail" in completly different 
> manners.

Can ya'll please help out and refrain from using the word 'jail'?  It 
makes technical googling for jail(8) difficult.  :)

How about 'prison' or 'incarceration' or 'the pokey'?

--
/me redirects all replies to [nycbug-jokes] (which I believe gets piped 
to /dev/null)

Rocket-
.ike




From mickey  Fri Jun  3 14:00:58 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:00:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] great meeting..
In-Reply-To: <20050603172400.GB30872@ayvali.org> from "N.J. Thomas" at "Jun 3, 
	2005 01:24:00 pm"
Message-ID: <200506031800.j53I0w9V025923@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from N.J. Thomas:
> * Joshua S. Freeman <jfreeman at nybg.org> [2005-06-02 14:24:52 -0400]:
> > I just want to express my appreciation to George for emceeing/hosting
> > an excellent meeting and stammtisch last night featuring Phillip
> > Moore.
> 
> I concur, Phil was a most excellent speaker -- he held our attention so
> well that the hour flew by very quickly.

the whole basis for the business model w/ open source
software being no-cost software is really the sad
situation the world is in now.

and then later there is a call to go join some
project and write some software.

so how come there is no costs?
there are costs!

except they are _not_ paid by the big companies.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From alex  Fri Jun  3 14:04:22 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:04:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <20050603172928.GC8266@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506031403470.27595-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 12:18:17PM -0400, Robert J Collins wrote:
> >I don't think the original poster meant HVAC sensors, but HVAC
> >controls.
> 
> Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if I should use smoke dectors, or temp
> sensors alone when I set the bit on the relay for the sprinklers... ;)
You should use whatever the local code says you should use. You did 
consult a competent fire protection engineer, right?

-alex




From rcollins  Fri Jun  3 15:23:31 2005
From: rcollins (Robert J Collins)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:23:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <20050603172928.GC8266@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <20050603192547.538A9A863B@virtu.nyphp.org>

If it helps at all I set off the first fire alarm in our new (3 month old)
building. I was trying to cook grilled cheese. I was glad that we've got the
old fashion heat sensor sprinkler system. 

It was nice that they were able to take that smoke detector out of the
system until I finished burning my lunch.

-rcollins

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org 
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org] On Behalf Of George Georgalis
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:29 PM
> To: talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
> 
> On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 12:18:17PM -0400, Robert J Collins wrote:
> >I don't think the original poster meant HVAC sensors, but 
> HVAC controls.
> 
> Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if I should use smoke 
> dectors, or temp sensors alone when I set the bit on the 
> relay for the sprinklers... ;)
> 
> // George
> 
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD 
> IXOYE http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 
> mailto:george at galis.org 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists %We 
> meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 





From alex  Fri Jun  3 14:35:14 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 14:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: [nylug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <200506031416.j53EGqPg013515@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506030928310.21626-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from alex at pilosoft.com:
> > On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, George wrote:
> > 
> > > Actually, do some heavy googling because FBSD's PHK is apparently doing
> > > many things in that arena with Soekris boxes. . .
> > > 
> > > But you'd have to agree with Alex that it seems frivilous to go this
> > > route.  It might make sense to figure out getting data over RS485 to a
> > > box, then what would allow you to tail the data over that route. . .
> > Bottom line is, when your open source-picked thing fails and sets the
> > building on fire by setting your HVAC to heat instead of cool, what will
> > you tell the board members?
> 
> this is typical american boolshit. what does it matter who to blame? or
> do you mean "commercial" software does not fail? every single commercial
> piece of software is a pile of poo. and guess what? there is nothing you
> can do about it. you live w/ it and that gives you false sense of
> security and makes you think it will just work because there is no other
> choice and if it does not you will find your way around to make it
> _kinda_ do what you want. and you live w/ it blaming the vendor for your
> own inability to make things work...
No, not really. There are commercial products that are excellent. There 
are open source products that are stacked piles of poo. Poo-pooing 
(literally) commercial software and saying open source is always better is 
just as silly as saying "open source sucks". The reality is, there are 
cases where open source fits, and there are cases where it doesn't.

> > RS-485 interface is fairly low-level and you can control specific
> > parts of the unit via that.
> > 
> > This isn't linux on desktop, kids. This is real stuff. Code fails,
> > things catch fire.
> 
> yes and real stuff is not about this stupid bigotry it's about YOU
> making sure it WORKS before YOU deploy it into USE irregardless of what
> it's made of.
Don't get me wrong, I love open source. However, unlike the zealots, I
recognize that there are cases where open source is simply not appropriate
for the business requirement.

Let's compare two cases, one is when Joshua bites the bullet and purchases
the big bad proprietary software, and second one is when he finds hackers
on the internet to write code to control his HVAC unit, and see what
really makes sense in *this specific case*.

Case 1:

a) Software is developed based on manufacturer published docs and/or 
reverse engineered manufaacturer's software.

b) Software is tested on Joshua's single unit, while being developed by
hackers around the world. Nobody knows if the unit will catch fire (or
just die) doing development and testing if you sent a wrong command.

c) If the software malfunctions, it will be Joshua's head on the line.

Case 2:

a) software is developed by manufacturer's software engineers in close
contact with engineers who developed said hardware.

b) software is tested on manufacturer's units, which are designed to be 
'test units', if unit dies, it isn't a big deal

c) If software malfunctions, Joshua's legal counsel will be firing off 
negligence lawsuits.

Don't get me wrong - I would love if all manufacturers released full 
documentation and open sourced basic code libraries necessary to talk to 
their hardware. But, that's not the world we live in. In the real world, 
there are cases where open source just isn't appropriate







From swygue  Fri Jun  3 16:10:40 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:10:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>

I would like some guidance and tips from guys who are consultants in New 
York City. I would like to start marketing my self, but I don't have a clue 
on how to start getting clients of my own. So for questions for the 
veterans.

How did you first get started ?
How did you get your first client ?
Where do you look for clients ?
How do you sell FreeBSD to clients ?





-- 
<!-- Rod --*
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From mickey  Fri Jun  3 16:02:03 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:02:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com> from swygue at "Jun
	3, 2005 04:10:40 pm"
Message-ID: <200506032002.j53K2377028760@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from swygue:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> I would like some guidance and tips from guys who are consultants in New 
> York City. I would like to start marketing my self, but I don't have a clue 
> on how to start getting clients of my own. So for questions for the 
> veterans.
> 
> How did you first get started ?
> How did you get your first client ?
> Where do you look for clients ?
> How do you sell FreeBSD to clients ?

first you need to get a thong.
then you ...

olrite kidding. (;

i think word of a mouth is still the best client mining.
then they usually do not care what os they run.
if they do care then they just do not know there is smth
else except for what they want.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From george  Fri Jun  3 16:30:21 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:30:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] open source HVAC control software
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506031403470.27595-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <20050603172928.GC8266@ixeon.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506031403470.27595-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050603203021.GA1079@ixeon.local>

On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 02:04:22PM -0400, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 12:18:17PM -0400, Robert J Collins wrote:
>> >I don't think the original poster meant HVAC sensors, but HVAC
>> >controls.
>> 
>> Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if I should use smoke dectors, or temp
>> sensors alone when I set the bit on the relay for the sprinklers... ;)
>You should use whatever the local code says you should use. You did 
>consult a competent fire protection engineer, right?

<snicker> it was a joke, I wasn't ever going to program sensors for
sprinklers in my computer room.</snicker>

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From nomadlogic  Fri Jun  3 19:10:29 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:10:29 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <200506032002.j53K2377028760@lucifier.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506032002.j53K2377028760@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <57d7100005060316108eae172@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from swygue:
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > I would like some guidance and tips from guys who are consultants in New
> > York City. I would like to start marketing my self, but I don't have a clue
> > on how to start getting clients of my own. So for questions for the
> > veterans.
> >
> > How did you first get started ?
> > How did you get your first client ?
> > Where do you look for clients ?
> > How do you sell FreeBSD to clients ?
> 
> first you need to get a thong.
> then you ...
> 
> olrite kidding. (;

I knew there was a reason my clients where not calling me back.  Must
have been the back hair ;p

> 
> i think word of a mouth is still the best client mining.
> then they usually do not care what os they run.
> if they do care then they just do not know there is smth
> else except for what they want.
> 

as a freelancer or consultant the only thing you really have is your
reputation.  i've gotten most jobs via word of mouth contacts, which
frankly is great.  i guess the hard part is getting the first contact.
 to do that i usually quit my full time job then offer my services as
a freelancer :)

-p

-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From lists  Fri Jun  3 19:18:24 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 19:18:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050603190818.I15747@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, swygue wrote:

> York City. I would like to start marketing my self, but I don't have a clue
> on how to start getting clients of my own.

What do you do?
You planning on going fulltime?
You got rent/food covered?

> How did you first get started ?

Had been doing it "on the side" for about 12 years. Jan 2004 the place I 
worked started a process of firing 150+ people (out of 300). Spent 3 
months looking for a fulltime job.. Since april 04 working as an 
"independant".. for my own company..

When your food/rent money is on the line you suddenly find it easier to 
find clients. :-)

> How did you get your first client ?

Except for 1 client in my almost 15 years of experience I have always got 
clients through referals. The one that wasn't was from Craigslist, but 
it's not easy to get a contract from there.. Lots of competition.

  > Where do you look for clients ?

Craigslist is one place. You can go to networking meetings, small business 
"talks" and networking meetings where business owners go to network.

> How do you sell FreeBSD to clients ?

For the most part you don't.
My experience is with small business so anything I wrote forward is about 
that market.. (under 20 employees mostly).

For the most part I think there are two types of clients. Those that want 
a solution and don't care how you do it and those that think they know what they need 
and tell you to do the work in a particular way. Those for the most part I avoid.. if they 
really knew how to do it, they would not be talking to you in the first place. :-)

A bit of an exception is if they have someone in the shop that is a tech 
person, but not necessarily the same as your knowledge. Example if you are 
a developer and they have a network person.. There is also the rare case 
where they have a good person, but he just has so much work that needs 
some help.

As much as I like the live of a business owner it's a big challenge for us 
tech people because we want to spend more time doing tech work than doing 
marketting and just getting our face out there.

Then you have the issue of actually managing the business. For example if 
you get a contract, finding the right price that will keep you happy and 
the customer coming back... managing your expenses.. paying yourself 
(payroll).. health insurance... etc...



From tux  Fri Jun  3 19:54:32 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:54:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050603190818.I15747@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050603190818.I15747@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42A0EDB8.8030306@penguinnetwerx.net>

>> How did you first get started ?

I imagine most of us got started the same way - working a full-time job 
while doing tech work on the side, then either layoffs or whatever came 
about and suddenly your hobby became your job.  Speaking for myself, I 
got tired of working my arse off to make someone else rich, so one day I 
quit my job and started working for myself full-time.

>> How did you get your first client ?

A friend of my parents was looking for someone to fix his network, and 
he heard I "knew about computers."  He was impressed with my work, so I 
asked him if he wouldn't mind telling people that he was happy with me. 
  One thing led to another, and because of him, I suddenly had about 15 
new clients.

>> Where do you look for clients ?

The only marketing/advertising I've ever done is business cards (of one 
form or another.)  Word of mouth is IMHO the best advertising you can 
ask for.  I recently paid for a marketing deal with one of my vendor 
partners, and I'll let you know how it goes after next week when I get 
done with all of the follow-up calls :)

>> How do you sell FreeBSD to clients ?

I usually slip it in when they're looking for a server of one type or 
another, usually a file server for the small office or a firewall.  I've 
found that showing them the cost comparison between Windows and FreeBSD 
(licensing, purchase price, labor for installing weekly patches/updates, 
etc.) is a good way to show them how expensive it can be to have a file 
server.  FreeBSD wins 9 out of 10 times :)

> For the most part you don't.
> My experience is with small business so anything I wrote forward is 
> about that market.. (under 20 employees mostly).
> 
> For the most part I think there are two types of clients. Those that 
> want a solution and don't care how you do it and those that think they 
> know what they need and tell you to do the work in a particular way. 
> Those for the most part I avoid.. if they really knew how to do it, they 
> would not be talking to you in the first place. :-)
> 
> A bit of an exception is if they have someone in the shop that is a tech 
> person, but not necessarily the same as your knowledge. Example if you 
> are a developer and they have a network person.. There is also the rare 
> case where they have a good person, but he just has so much work that 
> needs some help.

*nods in agreement*

> As much as I like the live of a business owner it's a big challenge for 
> us tech people because we want to spend more time doing tech work than 
> doing marketting and just getting our face out there.

You got that right :)

> Then you have the issue of actually managing the business. For example 
> if you get a contract, finding the right price that will keep you happy 
> and the customer coming back... managing your expenses.. paying yourself 
> (payroll).. health insurance... etc...

.. you get paid?  :P




From ike  Fri Jun  3 20:21:57 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:21:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>

Hey Rod,  All,

Great thread here- I'm afraid I'll just be echoing others' comments, 
but I'll chime in too here-

On Jun 3, 2005, at 4:10 PM, swygue wrote:

> I would like some guidance and tips from guys who are consultants in 
> New York City. I would like to start marketing my self, but I don't 
> have a clue on how to start getting clients of my own. So for 
> questions for the veterans.
>
>  How did you first get started ?

I first got started out of simply having no work.  I'd been part of 
starting a media company during the late 90's that was baby out with 
bathwater, all our clients were dot-coms or online subsidiaries of 
media companies.

Anyhow, I was jobless, and so were all the best people I knew in the 
business.

>  How did you get your first client ?

Out of desperation, I found people who needed my services- and that's 
that.  There's nothing like starving to kick you into finding work.  I 
did little things, lots of loose-ended projects, and relationships were 
formed.  In the earliest days I can't say I didn't get royally screwed 
around here and there, but those were all good learning experiences- 
expect them to happen, (but happen less and less as time moves 
foreword).

>  Where do you look for clients ?

At this point I don't necessarily look for clients.  I have resumes out 
on Monster, Dice.com, Yahoo Jobs, etc... and periodically get a cold 
call based on usually some obscure stuff I've done- it rarely amounts 
to much, but has landed me a few small projects.

What's really important is trust, and referrals.
I'll echo what others said on the list here- it's all about referral 
when your small- it's very important to keeping focused on actual 
project work.  Do good work, manage client expectations, and in NYC of 
all places, honesty is like crack cocaine to clients- there's usually a 
serious deficit of honesty in the biz.  Dishonest consultants, 
companies, vendors, etc... come and go.
When I say honesty, I mean this- I've actually been REFERRED by clients 
who I flat out told I screwed something up, or clients who I flat out 
told I couldn't do their particular task.

>  How do you sell FreeBSD to clients ?

Heh- when Linux (usually RH) breaks, it's an easy sell :)
Thing is, the BSD's don't give the same griefs (in my particular 
working contexts), so it keeps me focused on doing new and valuable 
stuff with my clients- things to advance their business goals, and my 
creative technical goals- not sitting around debugging RPM's.  For me, 
*BSD is transparent- it doesn't get bought and sold.
(Flames over this comment will be sent to /dev/null, thx.)
I'd do Linux in a big shop with competent people around me, the needs 
and uses are more complicated and sophisticated, but there's no way I'm 
going to do it at the scale of a 1 man shop.

That topikc worth writing a serious paper on when I have the time- (TCO 
of BSD over Linux at smaller scales).  Working at my small scale, Linux 
has repeatedly failed me and my clients, the BSD's have always just 
been there- running solid.

If your clients trust you, they trust what you recommend- that's all 
there is to it.  I run like wild from clients who try to dictate too 
much of my position, (when it's insane), as I find if a client is 
mandating a particular tech. for no reason, they're likely going to be 
a pain which will eventually loose me money- and if they have bad 
experiences, they point fingers at me.

Which brings me to a closing comment in this rant- small, independent 
business, I've found, cannot compete with the big guys on price- 
period.  Web hosting is a business I know, and it's an easy example of 
how commodoty crud takes over like a virus.
As a small business, your greatest asset is that you can easily provide 
better ANYTHING than the larger hosts, due to your awareness of the 
business at that size.  Compromise quality, and try to compete with the 
bigger, cheaper shops- and you'll be eaten alive- I've seen that happen 
way too many times to colleagues over the years.

--
END RANT
Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Fri Jun  3 20:26:02 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:26:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A0EDB8.8030306@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050603190818.I15747@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A0EDB8.8030306@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <20050603201907.I15976@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Kevin Reiter wrote:

> etc.) is a good way to show them how expensive it can be to have a file 
> server.  FreeBSD wins 9 out of 10 times :)

Stability is also a big sell.
I have one client I am 100% won't remember his server is FreeBSD, but he 
surely knows its not windows.. Except for a few hard drives dying and a 
twice a year update, his server has just been working for close to 6 
years.

He is so happy with his server he even asked me if we could swap his 
workstations to FreeBSD, but unfortunately he has some windows programs 
that he needs AND a web site that ONLY works with IE. :-(

We are upgrading the server this weekend.. and it's primarily an issue 
of HD space.. Given the time it was going to take me to backup/restore..
  swap drives... I convinced him to just get a new machine.

On a side/funny note.. what I like most about this client is that he 
absolutely doesn't care what I use as long as it works.. when I told him I 
was going to move to the new hardware this weekend he said "why are you 
telling me? when I come monday everything better be working so just do
whatever you have to" :-)



From lists  Fri Jun  3 20:33:09 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:33:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> In the 
> earliest days I can't say I didn't get royally screwed around here and there, 
> but those were all good learning experiences- expect them to happen

I highly recommend a one page "engagement contract" saying that you will 
do computer work and that they will pay you X per hour. Specially if 
someone is asking for a big project and you have never worked with them.

Next week I plan to go to small claims court and I wish I had done an 
engagement contract with that client :-(



From tux  Fri Jun  3 20:40:14 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:40:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42A0F86E.2010301@penguinnetwerx.net>

Francisco Reyes wrote:
> I highly recommend a one page "engagement contract" saying that you will 
> do computer work and that they will pay you X per hour. Specially if 
> someone is asking for a big project and you have never worked with them.

If anyone wants a copy, I can send my "Service Authorization" form that 
I have each and every client sign before I so much as look at a 
keyboard.  It's only 1 page, which isn't handy for large-scale projects, 
but it's great for the small jobs.  I've had it looked at by no less 
than 5 attorneys in 4 different states, but feel free to make any 
changes to it that you need to (company, etc.)

Having them sign this has saved my bacon on a few occasions, and in each 
case, after showing the client what he signed, they apologize and all's 
well again.  I highly recommend to ANYONE who's doing work for 
themselves to have this in their toolkit...

E-mail me off-list if you'd like a copy.



From ike  Fri Jun  3 20:40:36 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:40:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050603201907.I15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050603190818.I15747@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A0EDB8.8030306@penguinnetwerx.net>
	<20050603201907.I15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <ed04067e87cf1b9b0dd7b5c1144d03a7@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Francisco, All,

On Jun 3, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> absolutely doesn't care what I use as long as it works..

+1 - it's the key with most clients I want to be working with.  They 
don't know, they pay me to know.

--
Also, as not to be disheartened by reality, I'd add that making sure 
clients expectations for whatever you do are realistic- prep them for 
whatever may fail- especially if what they want goes against your 
better judgement- (i.e. you *will* get clients who demand they run FTP 
on the public internet, so they can upload accounting files from 
starbucks :P ).  Prepping them for the consequences, along with 
suggesting *sane* other paths to take, is very important to client 
happiness- (which means repeat business and referral).

Once you get to a certain point with direction for whatever your doing, 
you'll be able to (and have the cashflow to) drop jobs you know will 
end in chaos- but starting out, it's realistic to expect to manage a 
number of 'clients who know best' and do not really.  Just don't let it 
ever get you down- it takes some time, but everyone eventually somehow 
gets beyond client work like that.

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Fri Jun  3 20:47:59 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 20:47:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <35d5b4f23c6201061722084c5e91feed@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

On Jun 3, 2005, at 8:33 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> In the earliest days I can't say I didn't get royally screwed around 
>> here and there, but those were all good learning experiences- expect 
>> them to happen
>
> I highly recommend a one page "engagement contract" saying that you 
> will do computer work and that they will pay you X per hour. Specially 
> if someone is asking for a big project and you have never worked with 
> them.
>
> Next week I plan to go to small claims court and I wish I had done an 
> engagement contract with that client :-(

Regarding contracts, they are VERY important.  They don't necessarily 
stop the really bad people from abusing you, that takes work however 
you slice it- (but they do mitigate risks with nasty people).

I really see contracts as valuable to get 2 honest parties heads 
wrapped around their expectations of the project BEFORE the project 
begins.

--
As an aside, I have a really great contract lawyer who's done some 
solid work for me.  She's not cheap, but she's directly saved me more 
money in than I've spent on a few occasions- and she's pleasant to work 
with.  Email me offlist if you want her contact info.

Best,
.ike




From george  Fri Jun  3 20:57:02 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:57:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dumb side issue. . .
Message-ID: <42A0FC5E.6010503@sddi.net>

as an aside to this fascinating discussion on technical consulting, 
everytime i hit the interview with Theo on www.tuxjournal.net, Firefox 
on FBSD 5.4 bombs out. . .

Can others try it out on a BSD and tell me what happens?

Certainly it happens occasionally with other sites, but I never expected 
it to happen with a GNU/Linux site. . . well, then again, I forget 
sometimes what GNU stands for. . .

g



From nomadlogic  Fri Jun  3 21:12:49 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:12:49 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dumb side issue. . .
In-Reply-To: <42A0FC5E.6010503@sddi.net>
References: <42A0FC5E.6010503@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <57d7100005060318125f7f2f15@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/05, George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> as an aside to this fascinating discussion on technical consulting,
> everytime i hit the interview with Theo on www.tuxjournal.net, Firefox
> on FBSD 5.4 bombs out. . .
> 
> Can others try it out on a BSD and tell me what happens?
> 
> Certainly it happens occasionally with other sites, but I never expected
> it to happen with a GNU/Linux site. . . well, then again, I forget
> sometimes what GNU stands for. . .
> 

willing to bet it's that annoying flash banner ad they have on the top
of the site.
 (cue voice over)
that's why i use "Flashblock" on firefox, it stops flash crap from
loading by default.  it's nice toy to use along side adblock.

-p

> g
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From scottro  Fri Jun  3 21:15:18 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:15:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dumb side issue. . .
In-Reply-To: <42A0FC5E.6010503@sddi.net>
References: <42A0FC5E.6010503@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050604011518.GA10185@mail.scottro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 08:57:02PM -0400, George wrote:
> as an aside to this fascinating discussion on technical consulting, 
> everytime i hit the interview with Theo on www.tuxjournal.net, Firefox 
> on FBSD 5.4 bombs out. . .
> 
> Can others try it out on a BSD and tell me what happens?

On FreeBSD-5.4, with native opera, no problem.  On firefox, running
CURRENT---hrm, www.tuxjournal.net brings me to an Italian site--works
fine there, though I can't understand it.  

Ok, English site works well too.  


Hrrm, I can't see the header while writing this, did George simply
hijack the thread and make an excuse?   :)

> 
> Certainly it happens occasionally with other sites, but I never expected 
> it to happen with a GNU/Linux site. . . well, then again, I forget 
> sometimes what GNU stands for. . .

Shame on you George.  Can't we all just get along?    :)

Whimsically yours,


- -- 

Scott Robbins

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Oz: We survived. 
Buffy: Yeah, it was some battle. 
Oz: I meant high school. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFCoQCm+lTVdes0Z9YRAsnTAKClzyK+GgsOuKpy07Bi/FkZPszXwgCeIFnR
eduAIgabg6rJjrRc+wSOJ8s=
=kBCS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From george  Fri Jun  3 21:18:06 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:18:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] dumb side issue. . .
In-Reply-To: <20050604011518.GA10185@mail.scottro.net>
References: <42A0FC5E.6010503@sddi.net>
	<20050604011518.GA10185@mail.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <42A1014E.5010705@sddi.net>

Scott Robbins wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Fri, Jun 03, 2005 at 08:57:02PM -0400, George wrote:
> 
>>as an aside to this fascinating discussion on technical consulting, 
>>everytime i hit the interview with Theo on www.tuxjournal.net, Firefox 
>>on FBSD 5.4 bombs out. . .
>>
>>Can others try it out on a BSD and tell me what happens?
> 
> 
> On FreeBSD-5.4, with native opera, no problem.  On firefox, running
> CURRENT---hrm, www.tuxjournal.net brings me to an Italian site--works
> fine there, though I can't understand it.  
> 
> Ok, English site works well too.  
> 
> 
> Hrrm, I can't see the header while writing this, did George simply
> hijack the thread and make an excuse?   :)

yes, new thread. . .

> 
> 
>>Certainly it happens occasionally with other sites, but I never expected 
>>it to happen with a GNU/Linux site. . . well, then again, I forget 
>>sometimes what GNU stands for. . .
> 
> 
> Shame on you George.  Can't we all just get along?    :)
> 
> Whimsically yours,

Okay, okay. . . i was looking for something more contentious then 
'consulting woes in NYC for 2005'. . . what about pkg_src v ports?

;-)

I actually figured we're bigger than one thread. . . i mean, we have 
about 200 on talk. . .

g



From jbaltz  Sat Jun  4 22:11:39 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:11:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A0EDB8.8030306@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050603190818.I15747@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A0EDB8.8030306@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <42A25F5B.3030309@3phasecomputing.com>

On 06/03/05 07:54 PM, Kevin Reiter wrote:
>>> How did you first get started ?
> I imagine most of us got started the same way - working a full-time job 
> while doing tech work on the side, then either layoffs or whatever came 
> about and suddenly your hobby became your job.  Speaking for myself, I 

Um, that would be me, too.

> got tired of working my arse off to make someone else rich, so one day I 
> quit my job and started working for myself full-time.

I decided to NOT crazily aggressivly the f/t job thing any more -- if a 
good one falls into my lap, then I'll take it. Else, I'm indie.
(Yes, I've had and turned down offers. I'm at the stage where I really 
want something good, and being indie right now seems "good". Of course, 
now I have no excuse NOT to show up to the NYC*BUG meetings...no more 
job interference :-) Plus, my wife works.)

>>> How did you get your first client ?
> A friend of my parents was looking for someone to fix his network, and 
> he heard I "knew about computers."  He was impressed with my work, so I 
> asked him if he wouldn't mind telling people that he was happy with me. 
>  One thing led to another, and because of him, I suddenly had about 15 
> new clients.

I haven't had that much luck yet, but it does take time. The market 
appears to be very competetive now.

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman     jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com         KE3ML
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.



From jbaltz  Sat Jun  4 22:15:19 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:15:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <35d5b4f23c6201061722084c5e91feed@lesmuug.org>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<35d5b4f23c6201061722084c5e91feed@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <42A26037.60208@3phasecomputing.com>

On 06/03/05 08:47 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Regarding contracts, they are VERY important.  They don't necessarily 
> stop the really bad people from abusing you, that takes work however you 
> slice it- (but they do mitigate risks with nasty people).

I'm going off on a tangent somewhat here, but there appear to be a lot 
of freelancers here.

What do people do, if anything, for liability insurance, and/or 
professional liability insurance?

> .ike

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman     jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com         KE3ML
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.



From spork  Sat Jun  4 22:42:11 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:42:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A26037.60208@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<35d5b4f23c6201061722084c5e91feed@lesmuug.org>
	<42A26037.60208@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506042239430.372@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> On 06/03/05 08:47 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>> Regarding contracts, they are VERY important.  They don't necessarily stop 
>> the really bad people from abusing you, that takes work however you slice 
>> it- (but they do mitigate risks with nasty people).
>
> I'm going off on a tangent somewhat here, but there appear to be a lot of 
> freelancers here.

I'm part freelancer, part part-time employee.  I don't know where the hell 
I fit in.

> What do people do, if anything, for liability insurance, and/or professional 
> liability insurance?

+1 for nothing.

I did find it is required if you say, want to co-lo a box at any 
reasonable facility, and it's not cheap.  I understand the idea there - if 
you're gear catches fire and kills off all your neighbors then your 
insurance covers that.  For those that do admin/programming stuff, I have 
no idea what the benefits are.  I've never been asked by a client if I had 
any type of insurance though, for whatever that's worth.

Charles

>> .ike
>
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman     jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com         KE3ML
> thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From lists  Sat Jun  4 23:35:09 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:35:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506042239430.372@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<35d5b4f23c6201061722084c5e91feed@lesmuug.org>
	<42A26037.60208@3phasecomputing.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506042239430.372@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20050604233131.C69694@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> For those that do admin/programming stuff, I have no idea what the 
> benefits are.  I've never been asked by a client if I had any type of 
> insurance though, for whatever that's worth.

I have no insurance, but run my business as a corporation. It allows a 
minimal level of protection in that if you are sued, it is the corporation 
that will go bankrupt and not you. That doesn't always work depending on 
what whent wrong.. and NOTHING can protect you against uncle sam.. so make 
sure you have a good accountant.. corporation, LLC, partnership.. no 
matter.. the tax man will get it's money even if they have to pawn your 
underwear to get it. :-)

If one has a good business then I think liability insurance will be a good 
idea. On my case if I have to close my corp because of a law suit I, in 
theory, would just open another.. it's not like I have a whole lot of 
money at my companie's bank account. :-(



From ike  Sun Jun  5 08:46:39 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:46:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A26037.60208@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<35d5b4f23c6201061722084c5e91feed@lesmuug.org>
	<42A26037.60208@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <14356acae86dda3d83e6015b0f6dedd5@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 4, 2005, at 10:15 PM, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> What do people do, if anything, for liability insurance, and/or 
> professional liability insurance?

http://techinsurance.com/

I mess around trying to find local insurance and got a lot of 'what is 
co-location?  Why do you have servers that aren't in your office?  Why 
are they more valuable than your office computer?'

I found these folks speak our language for insurance.

Rocket-
.ike




From tux  Sun Jun  5 13:19:03 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 13:19:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506042030510.5711@mika.hanulec.com>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A0F86E.2010301@penguinnetwerx.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0506042030510.5711@mika.hanulec.com>
Message-ID: <42A33407.50006@penguinnetwerx.net>

I didn't really expect the amount of responses/requests for my Service 
Authorization form, but to make things easier, I posted it for whomever 
wants it at my website:

http://penguinnetwerx.net/Service_Auth.sxw

It's in OpenOffice.org 1.14 format for those who don't recognize the 
extension.

That'll save me from sending it out 50 times a day :)

-Kev



From spork  Sun Jun  5 17:23:28 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:23:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 6.0 coming up fast
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506051721380.372@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

And I thought I was getting ahead of the curve with giving 5.4 a shot...

Has anyone here been following this closely enough to take a jab at what a 
5.x to 6.x upgrade might entail?  Will it be as bad as the 4.x to 5.x 
jump?

____
The long anticipated and much feared 6.0 code freeze is about to begin!
I'll cut to the chase:

June 10   - Feature freeze + code slush
^^^^^^^

July 10   - RELENG_6 branch
August 1  - RELENG_6_0 branch
August 15 - 6.0-RELEASE

>From June 10 until the release, the number one priority is fixing bugs.
All of the dates after June 10 are somewhat fluid and subject to change
depending on where we are with stability.  We won't release 6.0 until
it is ready, but I'm pretty confident that we'll have it ready by
August.
____




From scottro  Sun Jun  5 18:09:25 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:09:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] 6.0 coming up fast
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506051721380.372@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506051721380.372@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20050605220925.GA41342@mail.scottro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Jun 05, 2005 at 05:23:28PM -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> And I thought I was getting ahead of the curve with giving 5.4 a shot...
> 
> Has anyone here been following this closely enough to take a jab at what a 
> 5.x to 6.x upgrade might entail?  Will it be as bad as the 4.x to 5.x 
> jump?
> 

How does that fortune go?  Theoretically means not really?

Theoretically, nowhere near as bad.  Nor anywhere near as bad as 5.2 to
5.3 or 5.3BETA6 to BETA7.   :)

If you use pf, you will have to add device pf to your kernel.  (UPDATING
covers this--it was a little over my head, but it came down to when I
rebooted, it said no such device.  I recompiled, adding device pf and it
worked.)


The only other issue I've run into is with locales.  I have occasional
need of Japanese and therefore have a script that sets aterm or rxvt to
LC_CTYPE of ja_JP.eucJP.  I would get a message that setting locale
failed. 

It has to do with some upgrading of libraries from libc.so.5 to
libc.so.6. 

Riskest way to fix it is to add libc.so.5 	libc.so.6 to the top of
your /etc/libmap.conf.  I did that for a few days and it didn't seem to
break anything. 

However, the suggested workaround is to copy over your old
/usr/share/locale somewhere (as I only use it as user scottro, I put it
in $HOME) and added a line to my .zshrc 

PATH_LOCALE=$HOME/locale; export $PATH_LOCALE

This fixed the problem for me. 

Aside from that, I haven't run into any issues on the one workstation
with about 300 programs installed (though I haven't checked every single
program, no issues with Apache, openoffice, gimp, etc.



- -- 

Scott Robbins

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Willow: Oz is a werewolf.
Buffy: It's a long story.
Oz: I got bit.
Buffy: Apparently not that long.
Faith: Hey, as long as you don't go scratchin' at me or humpin' my
leg, we're
five-by-five, ya' know?
Oz: Fair enough.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFCo3gV+lTVdes0Z9YRApCeAJ9JRmeaw9MTI1CDTDdgFKF4WqkadgCeNmyW
0VcMg2n+iF+Z1fEOwKJ1dGU=
=6Db7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From alexgill  Sun Jun  5 22:20:52 2005
From: alexgill (Gill, Alex)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:20:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A33407.50006@penguinnetwerx.net>
References: <cdb2c1f305060313102c5ca8cb@mail.gmail.com>
	<754c5e36014b5d8b56e3e1f408d001de@lesmuug.org>
	<20050603203030.W15976@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A0F86E.2010301@penguinnetwerx.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0506042030510.5711@mika.hanulec.com>
	<42A33407.50006@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <42A3B304.8020200@tekwerx.biz>

Here's a nice article about consulting which if I recall appeared on /.:
http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/be-consultant.html

Alex



From steve.rieger  Tue Jun  7 13:09:19 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 13:09:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] g4u on proliant 360 g4 scsi raid 1
Message-ID: <3b436c4cd17a22a78ab6a2cd633387bd@tbwachiat.com>

hi all
need a favor

i have 14 proliant 360's that i want to clone, but g4u that i am  
pulling off the site does not pick up the raid array (raid 1) and since  
i do not have netbsd running am wondering if any of you compiled g4u  
with all the bells and whistles instead of the stripped down version  
that i have.


here is my hw stuff (dmesg)


thanx



Copyright (c) 1992-2005 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
	The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE #0: Thu Jun  2 11:33:53 EDT 2005
     /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/custom-smp
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.40GHz (3400.14-MHz 686-class CPU)
   Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0xf41  Stepping = 1
    
Features=0xbfebfbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE 
,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,DTS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,PBE>
   Hyperthreading: 2 logical CPUs
real memory  = 3758043136 (3583 MB)
avail memory = 3678244864 (3507 MB)
ACPI APIC Table: <HP     00000083>
FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs
  cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
  cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1
  cpu2 (AP): APIC ID:  6
  cpu3 (AP): APIC ID:  7
ioapic1: Changing APIC ID to 9
ioapic0 <Version 2.0> irqs 0-23 on motherboard
ioapic1 <Version 2.0> irqs 24-47 on motherboard
ioapic2 <Version 2.0> irqs 48-71 on motherboard
ioapic3 <Version 2.0> irqs 72-95 on motherboard
npx0: <math processor> on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
acpi0: <HP P52> on motherboard
acpi0: Power Button (fixed)
Timecounter "ACPI-safe" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000
acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x908-0x90b on acpi0
cpu0: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
cpu1: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
cpu2: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
cpu3: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
pcib0: <ACPI Host-PCI bridge> on acpi0
pci0: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib0
pcib1: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 2.0 on pci0
pci13: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib1
pcib2: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 4.0 on pci0
pci6: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib2
pcib3: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 0.0 on pci6
pci7: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib3
pcib4: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 0.2 on pci6
pci10: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib4
pcib5: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 6.0 on pci0
pci3: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib5
pcib6: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 28.0 on pci0
pci2: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib6
ciss0: <HP Smart Array 6i> port 0x4000-0x40ff mem  
0xfdf80000-0xfdfbffff,0xfdff0000-0xfdff1fff irq 24 at device 1.0 on  
pci2
bge0: <Broadcom BCM5704C Dual Gigabit Ethernet, ASIC rev. 0x2100> mem  
0xfdf70000-0xfdf7ffff irq 25 at device 2.0 on pci2
miibus0: <MII bus> on bge0
brgphy0: <BCM5704 10/100/1000baseTX PHY> on miibus0
brgphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseTX,  
1000baseTX-FDX, auto
bge0: Ethernet address: 00:13:21:b1:7a:24
bge1: <Broadcom BCM5704C Dual Gigabit Ethernet, ASIC rev. 0x2100> mem  
0xfdf60000-0xfdf6ffff irq 26 at device 2.1 on pci2
miibus1: <MII bus> on bge1
brgphy1: <BCM5704 10/100/1000baseTX PHY> on miibus1
brgphy1:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseTX,  
1000baseTX-FDX, auto
bge1: Ethernet address: 00:13:21:b1:7a:23
uhci0: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> port 0x2000-0x201f irq 16 at  
device 29.0 on pci0
usb0: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> on uhci0
usb0: USB revision 1.0
uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
uhci1: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> port 0x2020-0x203f irq 19 at  
device 29.1 on pci0
usb1: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> on uhci1
usb1: USB revision 1.0
uhub1: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
pci0: <base peripheral> at device 29.4 (no driver attached)
pci0: <base peripheral, interrupt controller> at device 29.5 (no driver  
attached)
pci0: <serial bus, USB> at device 29.7 (no driver attached)
pcib7: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 30.0 on pci0
pci1: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib7
pci1: <display, VGA> at device 3.0 (no driver attached)
pci1: <base peripheral> at device 4.0 (no driver attached)
pci1: <base peripheral> at device 4.2 (no driver attached)
isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 31.0 on pci0
isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0
atapci0: <Intel 6300ESB UDMA100 controller> port  
0x500-0x50f,0x376,0x170-0x177,0x3f6,0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 18 at device 31.1  
on pci0
ata0: channel #0 on atapci0
ata1: channel #1 on atapci0
acpi_tz0: <Thermal Zone> on acpi0
atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> port 0x64,0x60 irq 1 on acpi0
atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0
kbd0 at atkbd0
psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0
psm0: model IntelliMouse Explorer, device ID 4
sio0: <Standard PC COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0
sio0: type 16550A
fdc0: <floppy drive controller (FDE)> port 0x3f2-0x3f5 irq 6 drq 2 on  
acpi0
fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
orm0: <ISA Option ROMs> at iomem  
0xee000-0xeffff,0xcc000-0xcd7ff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xc0000-0xc7fff on isa0
pmtimer0 on isa0
ppc0: parallel port not found.
sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0
sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300>
sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0
sio1: type 16550A
vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on  
isa0
Timecounters tick every 10.000 msec
acd0: CDROM <CRN-8245B/2.19> at ata0-master PIO4
da0 at ciss0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0
da0: <COMPAQ RAID 1  VOLUME OK> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-0 device
da0: 135.168MB/s transfers
da0: 69459MB (142253280 512 byte sectors: 255H 32S/T 17433C)
SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched!
SMP: AP CPU #3 Launched!
SMP: AP CPU #2 Launched!
Mounting root from ufs:/dev/da0s1a
Accounting enabled

--
Steve Rieger
(212) 804-1131   (Work)
(646) 335-8915   (Cell)
chozrim           (aim)




From nomadlogic  Tue Jun  7 13:30:25 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 10:30:25 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] g4u on proliant 360 g4 scsi raid 1
In-Reply-To: <3b436c4cd17a22a78ab6a2cd633387bd@tbwachiat.com>
References: <3b436c4cd17a22a78ab6a2cd633387bd@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000506071030602becde@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/7/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> hi all
> need a favor
> 
> i have 14 proliant 360's that i want to clone, but g4u that i am
> pulling off the site does not pick up the raid array (raid 1) and since
> i do not have netbsd running am wondering if any of you compiled g4u
> with all the bells and whistles instead of the stripped down version
> that i have.
> 

Hey Steve,
     While this is not a BSD specific solution, but we have been using
UDPcast over here to clone machines.  I boot's a 2.6 linux kernel and
seems to have a wide array of drivers installed.  I am trying to
remember if this is the utility that basicly stole the source from
G4U.  ..although I don't believe it is.

In anyevent we are able to get very good performace out of this via
gig-e and LZOP compression.

http://udpcast.linux.lu/

-pete

> 
> here is my hw stuff (dmesg)
> 
> 
> thanx
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright (c) 1992-2005 The FreeBSD Project.
> Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
>         The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
> FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE #0: Thu Jun  2 11:33:53 EDT 2005
>      /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/custom-smp
> Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
> CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.40GHz (3400.14-MHz 686-class CPU)
>    Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0xf41  Stepping = 1
> 
> Features=0xbfebfbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE
> ,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,DTS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,PBE>
>    Hyperthreading: 2 logical CPUs
> real memory  = 3758043136 (3583 MB)
> avail memory = 3678244864 (3507 MB)
> ACPI APIC Table: <HP     00000083>
> FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs
>   cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
>   cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1
>   cpu2 (AP): APIC ID:  6
>   cpu3 (AP): APIC ID:  7
> ioapic1: Changing APIC ID to 9
> ioapic0 <Version 2.0> irqs 0-23 on motherboard
> ioapic1 <Version 2.0> irqs 24-47 on motherboard
> ioapic2 <Version 2.0> irqs 48-71 on motherboard
> ioapic3 <Version 2.0> irqs 72-95 on motherboard
> npx0: <math processor> on motherboard
> npx0: INT 16 interface
> acpi0: <HP P52> on motherboard
> acpi0: Power Button (fixed)
> Timecounter "ACPI-safe" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000
> acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x908-0x90b on acpi0
> cpu0: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
> cpu1: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
> cpu2: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
> cpu3: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
> pcib0: <ACPI Host-PCI bridge> on acpi0
> pci0: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib0
> pcib1: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 2.0 on pci0
> pci13: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib1
> pcib2: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 4.0 on pci0
> pci6: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib2
> pcib3: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 0.0 on pci6
> pci7: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib3
> pcib4: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 0.2 on pci6
> pci10: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib4
> pcib5: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 6.0 on pci0
> pci3: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib5
> pcib6: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 28.0 on pci0
> pci2: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib6
> ciss0: <HP Smart Array 6i> port 0x4000-0x40ff mem
> 0xfdf80000-0xfdfbffff,0xfdff0000-0xfdff1fff irq 24 at device 1.0 on
> pci2
> bge0: <Broadcom BCM5704C Dual Gigabit Ethernet, ASIC rev. 0x2100> mem
> 0xfdf70000-0xfdf7ffff irq 25 at device 2.0 on pci2
> miibus0: <MII bus> on bge0
> brgphy0: <BCM5704 10/100/1000baseTX PHY> on miibus0
> brgphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseTX,
> 1000baseTX-FDX, auto
> bge0: Ethernet address: 00:13:21:b1:7a:24
> bge1: <Broadcom BCM5704C Dual Gigabit Ethernet, ASIC rev. 0x2100> mem
> 0xfdf60000-0xfdf6ffff irq 26 at device 2.1 on pci2
> miibus1: <MII bus> on bge1
> brgphy1: <BCM5704 10/100/1000baseTX PHY> on miibus1
> brgphy1:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseTX,
> 1000baseTX-FDX, auto
> bge1: Ethernet address: 00:13:21:b1:7a:23
> uhci0: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> port 0x2000-0x201f irq 16 at
> device 29.0 on pci0
> usb0: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> on uhci0
> usb0: USB revision 1.0
> uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
> uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
> uhci1: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> port 0x2020-0x203f irq 19 at
> device 29.1 on pci0
> usb1: <UHCI (generic) USB controller> on uhci1
> usb1: USB revision 1.0
> uhub1: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
> uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
> pci0: <base peripheral> at device 29.4 (no driver attached)
> pci0: <base peripheral, interrupt controller> at device 29.5 (no driver
> attached)
> pci0: <serial bus, USB> at device 29.7 (no driver attached)
> pcib7: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 30.0 on pci0
> pci1: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib7
> pci1: <display, VGA> at device 3.0 (no driver attached)
> pci1: <base peripheral> at device 4.0 (no driver attached)
> pci1: <base peripheral> at device 4.2 (no driver attached)
> isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 31.0 on pci0
> isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0
> atapci0: <Intel 6300ESB UDMA100 controller> port
> 0x500-0x50f,0x376,0x170-0x177,0x3f6,0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 18 at device 31.1
> on pci0
> ata0: channel #0 on atapci0
> ata1: channel #1 on atapci0
> acpi_tz0: <Thermal Zone> on acpi0
> atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> port 0x64,0x60 irq 1 on acpi0
> atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0
> kbd0 at atkbd0
> psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0
> psm0: model IntelliMouse Explorer, device ID 4
> sio0: <Standard PC COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0
> sio0: type 16550A
> fdc0: <floppy drive controller (FDE)> port 0x3f2-0x3f5 irq 6 drq 2 on
> acpi0
> fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
> orm0: <ISA Option ROMs> at iomem
> 0xee000-0xeffff,0xcc000-0xcd7ff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xc0000-0xc7fff on isa0
> pmtimer0 on isa0
> ppc0: parallel port not found.
> sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0
> sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300>
> sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0
> sio1: type 16550A
> vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on
> isa0
> Timecounters tick every 10.000 msec
> acd0: CDROM <CRN-8245B/2.19> at ata0-master PIO4
> da0 at ciss0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0
> da0: <COMPAQ RAID 1  VOLUME OK> Fixed Direct Access SCSI-0 device
> da0: 135.168MB/s transfers
> da0: 69459MB (142253280 512 byte sectors: 255H 32S/T 17433C)
> SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched!
> SMP: AP CPU #3 Launched!
> SMP: AP CPU #2 Launched!
> Mounting root from ufs:/dev/da0s1a
> Accounting enabled
> 
> --
> Steve Rieger
> (212) 804-1131   (Work)
> (646) 335-8915   (Cell)
> chozrim           (aim)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From jesse  Tue Jun  7 17:52:59 2005
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:52:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] g4u on proliant 360 g4 scsi raid 1
In-Reply-To: <3b436c4cd17a22a78ab6a2cd633387bd@tbwachiat.com>
References: <3b436c4cd17a22a78ab6a2cd633387bd@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <200506071752.59945.jesse@theholymountain.com>

On Tuesday 07 June 2005 01:09 pm, Steve Rieger says:
> hi all
> need a favor
>
> i have 14 proliant 360's that i want to clone, but g4u that i am
> pulling off the site does not pick up the raid array (raid 1) and since
> i do not have netbsd running am wondering if any of you compiled g4u
> with all the bells and whistles instead of the stripped down version
> that i have.
>
>
> here is my hw stuff (dmesg)
>
>
> thanx

aw heck, just dd the disks. Boot off of a CD or what have you and go to town. 
It takes a while, but I don't see how the raid is going to get cloned 
otherwise w/o a major investigation. This should work unless the clones are 
far away from each other.



From nomadlogic  Tue Jun  7 18:02:51 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:02:51 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] g4u on proliant 360 g4 scsi raid 1
In-Reply-To: <200506071752.59945.jesse@theholymountain.com>
References: <3b436c4cd17a22a78ab6a2cd633387bd@tbwachiat.com>
	<200506071752.59945.jesse@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <57d7100005060715022e27e15a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/7/05, Jesse Callaway <jesse at theholymountain.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 June 2005 01:09 pm, Steve Rieger says:
> > hi all
> > need a favor
> >
> > i have 14 proliant 360's that i want to clone, but g4u that i am
> > pulling off the site does not pick up the raid array (raid 1) and since
> > i do not have netbsd running am wondering if any of you compiled g4u
> > with all the bells and whistles instead of the stripped down version
> > that i have.
> >
> >
> > here is my hw stuff (dmesg)
> >
> >
> > thanx
> 
> aw heck, just dd the disks. Boot off of a CD or what have you and go to town.
> It takes a while, but I don't see how the raid is going to get cloned
> otherwise w/o a major investigation. This should work unless the clones are
> far away from each other.

what's nice about programs like udpcast is that you can clone all 14
of these systems at once (assuming it's hardware RAID already built in
the BIOS) via UPD multicast packets.  So the network bandwidth needed
should not increase if you have one machine many on your same subnet. 
if you where going to go the dd route, you would have to dd each
disk/array in serial...or eat up a *ton* of bandwidth if you wanted to
do more than a couple at a time.

-p


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From dlavigne6  Tue Jun  7 21:17:30 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:17:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: Eric Raymond's comments on licenses (fwd)
Message-ID: <20050607211648.J584@dru.domain.org>


For those that missed the English link. The translation is a bit rough in 
places.

http://www.myfreebsd.com.br/static/raymond-20050604.html

Dru



From swygue  Wed Jun  8 13:31:17 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:31:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks everyone for responding. I have been jobless since November and I 
often said I was going to post this question to the list, but I was 
reluctant because I fear i would got get the response I desired. Now I 
regret not asking sooner.

Base on the responses I have gathered I have come up with a few more 
questions.

1.) Some of you mentioned that you just offer your services as a freelancer. 

Did you run an add in the paper or did you contact any head-hunters.

2.) Networking meetings and small business talks.
Where do you find out about these meetings ?

3.) Once you have a chance to meet someone face to face, what do you say to 
them ? How do you sell yourself ?

4.) Paying yourself
How do you determine how much to charge ? Do you require a minum amount of 
hours even if you know you can get the job done in one hour?

5.) Health Insurance
What is availble to a Freelance computer guy ?

6.) Taxes
What resources have you find to help when tax time come? How did you keep 
track of expenses ? what tax tips you have to offer ?






-- 
<!-- Rod --*
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From swygue  Wed Jun  8 14:16:59 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:16:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f3050608111628ef7cb2@mail.gmail.com>

>jbaltz wrote:

>I have a great accountant I can recommend.
>What tips to recommend: KEEP ALL RECEIPTS.
>Have you founded a corporation yet? Subchapter S corporations are
>relatively cheap to form ($450 or so) and about $400 a year to keep in
>state/city taxes, and they provide a great way to filter expenses.

I will definitely keep this in mind, I will email you off list once I get 
all my ducks in a row.


-- 
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From lists  Wed Jun  8 16:14:55 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:14:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f3050608111628ef7cb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608111628ef7cb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050608161315.H11188@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, swygue wrote:

>> relatively cheap to form ($450 or so) and about $400 a year to keep in
>> state/city taxes

Plus whatever the accountant charges. If I recall correctly my accountant 
charges me around $600 to do my corporate taxes. :-(

> and they provide a great way to filter expenses.

They also give you a level of protection against some types of "issues"... 
ie if your get sued and they go after you, usually, they will only be able 
to get your corp assets.



From trish  Wed Jun  8 17:33:32 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:33:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a little bit of history.....
Message-ID: <20050608173209.X43511@ultra.bsdunix.net>

I dug out the old BUNY (aka FUNY) pages from my archives...

I put them up at http://lynch-family.org/~trish/funy/

its got such gems like Alfred Perlstein as an "eager young student"

-Trish

-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From lists  Thu Jun  9 09:50:49 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 09:50:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050609094139.X20116@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, swygue wrote:


> Did you run an add in the paper or did you contact any head-hunters.

Currently doing mostly referrals and Craigslist (although so far only one 
job came from Craigslist)

>
> 2.) Networking meetings and small business talks.

So far those have not worked for me.

> Where do you find out about these meetings ?

The web.. check the Manhattan chamber of commerce. They have a nice 
schedule page with many events of possible interest to a small business 
owner/independant.

> 3.) Once you have a chance to meet someone face to face, what do you say to
> them ? How do you sell yourself ?

You present your skills and why it would be to their advantage to use your 
services.

> How do you determine how much to charge?

I recommend you think of what you want to get paid an hour and what is the 
minimun you would consider working for. Those are very personal.. in that 
they are probably unique to everyone..

Also a client that has the potential to be a repeat business and you have 
nice people to deal with... I may charge less to retain them...

>Do you require a minum amount of
>hours even if you know you can get the job done in one hour?

Some people do that. I have never done it. Up to you.
Basically you want to see how much the job is worth to the client.. Never 
mind it's simple/complex it's all about what the customer is willing to 
pay.

> 5.) Health Insurance

:-(
None so far.

> What is availble to a Freelance computer guy ?

For a single person I think you can find something under $200. I need 
family coverage (just me and my wife) and that starts around $350.

> 6.) Taxes

I let that up to my accountant.

> What resources have you find to help when tax time come? How did you keep
> track of expenses ?

Get an American Express for your business.. they give the cards 
considerably more freely than others... but that means you can only spend 
what you have.. Amex is a debit card. You have to pay at the end of the 
month.

> what tax tips you have to offer ?

Search for new customers 7 days a week.. That's probably the hardest part 
if you are competent. Try to keep your good customers happy.

I had a customer call me after 5 years AND he pays almost inmediately 
after I finish the work. It was a pleasant surprise. He has never 
been a repeat customer in that even when I was helping him more 
regularly it was just a few times/year. Still it's nice that he 
would seek me out after so many years.



From jbaltz  Thu Jun  9 10:15:44 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:15:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050609094139.X20116@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050609094139.X20116@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42A84F10.9050200@3phasecomputing.com>

Perhaps it's time to start nycbug-freelancers :-)

On 06/09/05 09:50 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote:
>> What resources have you find to help when tax time come? How did you keep
>> track of expenses ?
> Get an American Express for your business.. they give the cards 
> considerably more freely than others... but that means you can only 
> spend what you have.. Amex is a debit card. You have to pay at the end 
> of the month.

Be very careful with credit cards. You can easily dig yourself a very 
deep hole.

That having been said, if you declare a corporation, credit card 
companies will come and find *YOU*. I have had no fewer than 5 offers; I 
picked one that just "seemed right" and gave me 11 months of 0% APR and 
some other stuff I'll probably never use (miles).

Moreover, if you're working for clients, it's nice to have a separate 
account to separate out your personal spending from your client spending.

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.



From lists  Thu Jun  9 10:59:43 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:59:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A84F10.9050200@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050609094139.X20116@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A84F10.9050200@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <20050609105358.D20578@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> Perhaps it's time to start nycbug-freelancers :-)

Yup.

> Be very careful with credit cards. You can easily dig yourself a very deep 
> hole.

That's the good thing about Amex.. you can't really do as much damage as 
with a regular credit card... It has to be paid every month in full.

> That having been said, if you declare a corporation, credit card companies 
> will come and find *YOU*.

My experience is that they won't take small businesses/independants..
Amex seems to me much easier to get.

> I have had no fewer than 5 offers; I picked one 
> that just "seemed right" and gave me 11 months of 0% APR and some other stuff 
> I'll probably never use (miles).

What bank?

> Moreover, if you're working for clients, it's nice to have a separate account 
> to separate out your personal spending from your client spending.

I only use the "corp amex" for business expenses so it's easier to track.

It also helps when you present a client a "whole setup deal"... ie you buy 
the equipment and charge for both the equipment and your time.. however be 
carefull to NOT markup the equipment... or you will have to deal with 
sales taxes. Basically I may buy parts for the client, show him the 
bill and charge him the exact amount. In other words the buying of the 
parts is just for his convenience. Very helpfull if you are buying 
multiple parts from differenc places; you don't want to be bothering your 
clients to buy items several times.. Big items like a computer or anything 
over $100 or $200 I let the client order directly.



From joshmccormack  Thu Jun  9 13:24:20 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:24:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42A87B44.1070709@travelersdiary.com>

I was out of work for a while after September 11th. Since then I've 
worked like crazy to build my network and diversify my work. Right now I 
  do programming & technical project management, am starting a couple of 
things myself, am writing a book and am about to take a class & test so 
I work as a real estate broker. Being out of work really stinks. I'm 
sorry you're going through it.

For taxes, record expenses and keep them organized. Find a decent 
accountant. They're worth every cent. If your health insurance expense 
is large enough you can deduct it. You can  buy most plans by yourself. 
It's expensive. For a family we're talking like $1500/mnth.

Networking and pitching - look around you, stores you frequent, people 
you know. Develop a brief summary of what you do. Don't worry about 
pigeon holing yourself, just give people something to work off of. Get 
used to saying it all the time so people start associating you with your 
field.

Josh



swygue wrote:

> Thanks everyone for responding. I have been jobless since November and I 
> often said I was going to post this question to the list, but I was 
> reluctant because I fear i would got get the response I desired. Now I 
> regret not asking sooner.
> 
> Base on the responses I have gathered I have come up with a few more 
> questions.
> 
> 1.) Some of you mentioned that you just offer your services as a 
> freelancer.
>     Did you run an add in the paper or did you contact any head-hunters.
> 
> 2.) Networking meetings and small business talks.
>     Where do you find out about these meetings ?
> 
> 3.) Once you have a chance to meet someone face to face, what do you say 
> to them ? How do you sell yourself ?
> 
> 4.) Paying yourself
>     How do you determine how much to charge ?  Do you require a minum 
> amount of hours even if you know you can get the job done in one hour?
> 
> 5.) Health Insurance
>     What is availble to a Freelance computer guy ?
> 
> 6.) Taxes
>     What resources have you find to help when tax time come? How did you 
> keep track of expenses ? what tax tips you have to offer ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> <!-- Rod --*
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month



From swygue  Thu Jun  9 17:06:53 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:06:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A87B44.1070709@travelersdiary.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<42A87B44.1070709@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f30506091406729c0eac@mail.gmail.com>

>Josh McCormack wrote:
>
> I was out of work for a while after September 11th. Since then >I've 
worked like crazy to build my network and diversify my work. >Right now I do 
programming & technical project management, >am starting a couple of things 
myself, am writing a book and am >about to take a class & test so I work as 
a real estate broker. >Being out of work really stinks. I'm sorry you're 
going through it.

How is the real estate broker course ? I think that's a smart move, I often 
think about what other skills do I have other that computers. So becoming a 
real estate broker is not a bad idea. I should look into doing taxes, I 
think I am pretty good at doing it.

> For taxes, record expenses and keep them organized. Find a >decent 
accountant. They're worth every cent. If your health >insurance expense is 
large enough you can deduct it. You can >buy most plans by yourself. It's 
expensive. For a family we're >talking like $1500/mnth.

> Networking and pitching - look around you, stores you >frequent, people 
you know. Develop a brief summary of what you >do. Don't worry about pigeon 
holing yourself, just give people >something to work off of. Get used to 
saying it all the time so >people start associating you with your field.

Thanks for the tip

>Josh




-- 
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From swygue  Thu Jun  9 18:02:32 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:02:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A8B39B.10609@travelersdiary.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<42A87B44.1070709@travelersdiary.com>
	<cdb2c1f30506091406729c0eac@mail.gmail.com>
	<42A8B39B.10609@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f3050609150235bc041c@mail.gmail.com>

Josh,

Great ideas! thanks! How did you get the state to pay for your classes ?
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From spork  Fri Jun 10 17:16:55 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:16:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050608161315.H11188@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608111628ef7cb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050608161315.H11188@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506101714150.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, swygue wrote:
>
>>> relatively cheap to form ($450 or so) and about $400 a year to keep in
>>> state/city taxes
>
> Plus whatever the accountant charges. If I recall correctly my accountant 
> charges me around $600 to do my corporate taxes. :-(
>
>> and they provide a great way to filter expenses.
>
> They also give you a level of protection against some types of "issues"... ie 
> if your get sued and they go after you, usually, they will only be able to 
> get your corp assets.

I can't speak to NY, but in NJ it cost me about $300 total to become a 
LLC.  This was a standard online package from HubCo.  From what I 
understand this gives me enough seperation between my personal finances 
and business finances.  There is very little ongoing paperwork compared to 
an S-Corp.  My accountant charges about $400 for combined personal and 
business tax filing.  The state charges $50/year for my business license.

Thanks,

Charles



From george  Sat Jun 11 20:25:25 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:25:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] patch panel vendor?
Message-ID: <20050612002525.GB2003@ixeon.local>

I'm looking for a vendor for a rack mount patch panel.

Per a prior thread on this list, I always go with cable wholesale
for this type of thing, but I don't see the type I'm looking for
http://cablewholesale.com/catalog/patchpanel.htm

I'd like the type where the cat-5 is terminated at a little box which
snaps into the rack faceplate for rj-45 connection on the front, much
like the wall receptacles.

Anyone seen them? I'm also looking for short (~3/8") rack screws.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Sat Jun 11 21:22:23 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:22:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] patch panel vendor?
In-Reply-To: <42AB8E32.2070305@sddi.net>
References: <20050612002525.GB2003@ixeon.local> <42AB8E32.2070305@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <42AB8E4F.5050905@sddi.net>

George wrote:
> George Georgalis wrote:
> 
>> I'm looking for a vendor for a rack mount patch panel.
>>
>> Per a prior thread on this list, I always go with cable wholesale
>> for this type of thing, but I don't see the type I'm looking for
>> http://cablewholesale.com/catalog/patchpanel.htm
>>
>> I'd like the type where the cat-5 is terminated at a little box which
>> snaps into the rack faceplate for rj-45 connection on the front, much
>> like the wall receptacles.
>>
> 
> www.ortronics.com makes some nice stuff.
> 
>> Anyone seen them? I'm also looking for short (~3/8") rack screws.
> 
> 
> how many do you need. . . i've got a stash. . .
> 
> g
> 




From george  Sun Jun 12 13:41:24 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 13:41:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] patch panel vendor?
In-Reply-To: <42AB8E4F.5050905@sddi.net>
References: <20050612002525.GB2003@ixeon.local> <42AB8E32.2070305@sddi.net>
	<42AB8E4F.5050905@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050612174124.GA990@ixeon.local>

On Sat, Jun 11, 2005 at 09:22:23PM -0400, G Rosamond wrote:
>>George Georgalis wrote:

>>>I'd like the type where the cat-5 is terminated at a little box which
>>>snaps into the rack faceplate for rj-45 connection on the front, much
>>>like the wall receptacles.
>>>
>>
>>www.ortronics.com makes some nice stuff.

Can't tell enough from the pictures, I'll give them a call Mon --
thanks.

>>>Anyone seen them? I'm also looking for short (~3/8") rack screws.
>>
>>how many do you need. . . i've got a stash. . .

well I *need* about 30, would like to buy a box of about 150.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From jschauma  Sun Jun 12 22:51:00 2005
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:51:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [tls@rek.tjls.com: How to help NetBSD help you.]
Message-ID: <20050613025100.GE20695@netmeister.org>

Hi folks,

Even though, as mentioned below, it's not been customary for NetBSD to
so openly ask for monetary donations, I'll forward the mail from our
lists here, too.

I know that many of you have just recently donated money to the OpenBSD
hackathon, and me coming along and asking yet again for money is
probably not very high on your list of things you'd like to see here,
but what the heck -- maybe you all want to get some more tax-deductable
donations for this year! :-)

``Support the quality programming that you expect from WNYC''^W^WNetBSD''!

Any help is appreciated, and I promise we won't make this a quarterly
fundraising pledge, even though, just like WNYC, we provide a great
service for free and rely on your generosity. ;)

-Jan

----- Forwarded message from Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> -----

> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:55:54 -0400
> From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com>
> To: netbsd-users at netbsd.org, current-users at netbsd.org,
> 	netbsd-advocacy at netbsd.org, netbsd-announce at netbsd.org
> Subject: How to help NetBSD help you.
> 
> There are many upgrades we'd like to make to the NetBSD project
> infrastructure, but which we cannot make because, to be blunt, our
> project is poor.  Not poor in innovation nor poor in developer
> resources nor poor in features -- poor in cold, hard cash, the kind
> we need in order to buy hardware that would let us better serve our
> users.
> 
> While other BSD projects have received tens or even hundreds of
> thousands of dollars in donations, either by direct appeal to
> their users (e.g. FreeBSD, when they faced tax status problems
> because too much of their income had come from a single corporate
> donor) or by doing their best to ensure that they received some
> revenue from the distribution of their products (e.g. OpenBSD and
> CD sales) we have always, I guess, been a little embarassed to
> directly and clearly ask our users for money -- whether just as
> plain, simple donations or in return for copies of NetBSD, which
> we do our best to make available free to all on the Net by FTP,
> HTTP, and BitTorrent.
> 
> But we do need your money.  We really do.  We need it to do more
> things and buy more stuff that will directly help us serve you,
> the NetBSD users, our "customers".
> 
> Often we're asked if people can donate hardware instead of
> money.  The unfortunate fact is that while individual NetBSD
> developers may be able to put donated hardware to use, we have
> standard hardware packages for the TNF servers and our
> administrators' lives become very hard if we just add donated
> components to them.  Also, we try to buy all new systems in
> complete form from vendors we've successfully done business
> with in the past.
> 
> However, if you'd like to donate to NetBSD, and see your donation
> go towards hardware to do things like speed up automatic builds
> of NetBSD (so you can always download the latest binaries from
> the branch you want for the hardware you need them for) or ensure
> fast and reliable AnonCVS service, what you *can* do is donate
> money to us and request that we devote it to that purpose.  We
> can't make hard guarantees (we have no need, for example, for 73
> new disk drives) but we will do our best to put your money to
> use in the way you intended it to be used.
> 
> So, if you'd like to "donate hardware" to us, please see the attached
> list of what we pay for the parts of which kind of system.  If you
> send us an appropriate amount by PayPal to paypal at netbsd.org, we will
> quickly put it to work to improve NetBSD, and the availablity of
> NetBSD, for you.
> 
> Clicking on the "PayPal donate" logo on the front page of our web
> site will of course also direct your donation to The NetBSD Foundation.
> 
> You don't need a PayPal account to donate; you can donate directly using
> your credit card, which PayPal will process on our behalf.
> 
> Of course, donations of any size are always greatly appreciated; and
> donations to The NetBSD Foundation, a 501(c)3 charity, are tax deductible
> under U.S. law.
> 
> PARTS LIST #1: Standard NetBSD Foundation Build System
> 
> ITEM				QTY	PRICE	TOTAL
> 
> Acme 8176T 1U Server		1	$685	$685
> Chassis Rail Set		1	$ 45	$ 45
> 1U 64-bit PCI Riser Card	1	$ 19	$ 19
> AMD Opteron 244			2	$252	$504
> WD Raptor 74GB SATA disk drive	2	$196	$392
> 512MB PC3200 DDR ECC REG RAM	4	$ 78	$312
> Labor, assemble & test		1	$ 25	$ 25
> Shipping (approximate)		1	$ 40	$ 40
> 
> Total for system:	$2022
> 
> The more of these we can buy, the more we can speed up autobuilds for you.
> 
> PARTS LIST #2: Replacement Anonymous CVS Server
> 
> Acme 8177T 1U Server		1	$799	$ 799
> Chassis Rail Set		1	$ 45	$  45
> 1U 64-bit PCI Riser Card	1	$ 19	$  19
> AMD Opteron 242			2	$201	$ 402
> WD Raptor 74GB SATA disk drive	4	$196	$ 784
> 1GB PC2700 DDR ECC REG RAM	8	$138	$1104
> Labor, assemble & test		1	$ 50	$  50
> Shipping (approximate)		1	$ 40	$  40
> 
> Total for system:	$3203
> 
> Thank you, in advance, for what I hope will be your very
> generous support.  We will put your money to work -- and
> quickly -- to help NetBSD better serve you.
> 
> Thor

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
   It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
		  -- Calvin
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From george  Sun Jun 12 23:11:13 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:11:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [tls@rek.tjls.com: How to help NetBSD help you.]
In-Reply-To: <20050613025100.GE20695@netmeister.org>
References: <20050613025100.GE20695@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: <42ACF951.1080101@sddi.net>

Sorry to top post all, but. . .

While we just raised some bucks for the OBSD hackathon, I would 
encourage all to give something for this effort.

As I've told Jan, Christos and others from NBSD before, they have a spot 
in our NYI colo for one or both of these boxes. . .

Let them know it's from NYCBUG if you make a donation.

Jan: I'll make sure Thor's email gets to our announce list.

(yes, marco s, that's you ;-)

g


Jan Schaumann wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> Even though, as mentioned below, it's not been customary for NetBSD to
> so openly ask for monetary donations, I'll forward the mail from our
> lists here, too.
> 
> I know that many of you have just recently donated money to the OpenBSD
> hackathon, and me coming along and asking yet again for money is
> probably not very high on your list of things you'd like to see here,
> but what the heck -- maybe you all want to get some more tax-deductable
> donations for this year! :-)
> 
> ``Support the quality programming that you expect from WNYC''^W^WNetBSD''!
> 
> Any help is appreciated, and I promise we won't make this a quarterly
> fundraising pledge, even though, just like WNYC, we provide a great
> service for free and rely on your generosity. ;)
> 
> -Jan
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> -----
> 
> 
>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:55:54 -0400
>>From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com>
>>To: netbsd-users at netbsd.org, current-users at netbsd.org,
>>	netbsd-advocacy at netbsd.org, netbsd-announce at netbsd.org
>>Subject: How to help NetBSD help you.
>>
>>There are many upgrades we'd like to make to the NetBSD project
>>infrastructure, but which we cannot make because, to be blunt, our
>>project is poor.  Not poor in innovation nor poor in developer
>>resources nor poor in features -- poor in cold, hard cash, the kind
>>we need in order to buy hardware that would let us better serve our
>>users.
>>
>>While other BSD projects have received tens or even hundreds of
>>thousands of dollars in donations, either by direct appeal to
>>their users (e.g. FreeBSD, when they faced tax status problems
>>because too much of their income had come from a single corporate
>>donor) or by doing their best to ensure that they received some
>>revenue from the distribution of their products (e.g. OpenBSD and
>>CD sales) we have always, I guess, been a little embarassed to
>>directly and clearly ask our users for money -- whether just as
>>plain, simple donations or in return for copies of NetBSD, which
>>we do our best to make available free to all on the Net by FTP,
>>HTTP, and BitTorrent.
>>
>>But we do need your money.  We really do.  We need it to do more
>>things and buy more stuff that will directly help us serve you,
>>the NetBSD users, our "customers".
>>
>>Often we're asked if people can donate hardware instead of
>>money.  The unfortunate fact is that while individual NetBSD
>>developers may be able to put donated hardware to use, we have
>>standard hardware packages for the TNF servers and our
>>administrators' lives become very hard if we just add donated
>>components to them.  Also, we try to buy all new systems in
>>complete form from vendors we've successfully done business
>>with in the past.
>>
>>However, if you'd like to donate to NetBSD, and see your donation
>>go towards hardware to do things like speed up automatic builds
>>of NetBSD (so you can always download the latest binaries from
>>the branch you want for the hardware you need them for) or ensure
>>fast and reliable AnonCVS service, what you *can* do is donate
>>money to us and request that we devote it to that purpose.  We
>>can't make hard guarantees (we have no need, for example, for 73
>>new disk drives) but we will do our best to put your money to
>>use in the way you intended it to be used.
>>
>>So, if you'd like to "donate hardware" to us, please see the attached
>>list of what we pay for the parts of which kind of system.  If you
>>send us an appropriate amount by PayPal to paypal at netbsd.org, we will
>>quickly put it to work to improve NetBSD, and the availablity of
>>NetBSD, for you.
>>
>>Clicking on the "PayPal donate" logo on the front page of our web
>>site will of course also direct your donation to The NetBSD Foundation.
>>
>>You don't need a PayPal account to donate; you can donate directly using
>>your credit card, which PayPal will process on our behalf.
>>
>>Of course, donations of any size are always greatly appreciated; and
>>donations to The NetBSD Foundation, a 501(c)3 charity, are tax deductible
>>under U.S. law.
>>
>>PARTS LIST #1: Standard NetBSD Foundation Build System
>>
>>ITEM				QTY	PRICE	TOTAL
>>
>>Acme 8176T 1U Server		1	$685	$685
>>Chassis Rail Set		1	$ 45	$ 45
>>1U 64-bit PCI Riser Card	1	$ 19	$ 19
>>AMD Opteron 244			2	$252	$504
>>WD Raptor 74GB SATA disk drive	2	$196	$392
>>512MB PC3200 DDR ECC REG RAM	4	$ 78	$312
>>Labor, assemble & test		1	$ 25	$ 25
>>Shipping (approximate)		1	$ 40	$ 40
>>
>>Total for system:	$2022
>>
>>The more of these we can buy, the more we can speed up autobuilds for you.
>>
>>PARTS LIST #2: Replacement Anonymous CVS Server
>>
>>Acme 8177T 1U Server		1	$799	$ 799
>>Chassis Rail Set		1	$ 45	$  45
>>1U 64-bit PCI Riser Card	1	$ 19	$  19
>>AMD Opteron 242			2	$201	$ 402
>>WD Raptor 74GB SATA disk drive	4	$196	$ 784
>>1GB PC2700 DDR ECC REG RAM	8	$138	$1104
>>Labor, assemble & test		1	$ 50	$  50
>>Shipping (approximate)		1	$ 40	$  40
>>
>>Total for system:	$3203
>>
>>Thank you, in advance, for what I hope will be your very
>>generous support.  We will put your money to work -- and
>>quickly -- to help NetBSD better serve you.
>>
>>Thor
> 
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month




From dgonzo  Mon Jun 13 07:52:13 2005
From: dgonzo (Daniel Gonzalez)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 07:52:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question
Message-ID: <42AD736D.9060607@optonline.net>

Does any one if it's possible to scan a windows PC for viruses from a 
FreeBSD box?
Of course both boxes are on the same lan in a closed network. My FreeBSD 
box is running 5.4RC2.
The Windows box is running Win2kPro.

Here's my uname:

[dgonzo at REDE2SRV:~] uname -a
FreeBSD REDE2SRV 5.4-RC2 FreeBSD 5.4-RC2 #0: Mon Apr 25 10:53:34 EDT 
2005     dgonzo at REDE2SRV.cablevision.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DAN1  i386

I vaguely rememeber reading aout it somewhere, but I think it was in Dru 
Lavigne's "BSD Hacks", of which I no longer own a copy. (One of my co 
workers saw it , asked to read it and refuses to give it up).

If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would be very grateful.

Regards
Dan Gonzalez
Senior Maintenance Engineer
Cablevision Lightpath



From nikolai.fetissov  Mon Jun 13 11:16:59 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quick question
In-Reply-To: <42AD736D.9060607@optonline.net>
References: <42AD736D.9060607@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <1315.63.66.6.45.1118675819.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

Check out nessus: http://nessus.org - does remote
vuln scanning. On the file scanning side, I guess,
you can share your windows drives and scan them
from FreeBSD using ClamAV (clamav.net). You'd need
samba though. Or just use clamav windows port.
--
 nick

On Mon, June 13, 2005 7:52 am, Daniel Gonzalez said:
> Does any one if it's possible to scan a windows PC for viruses from a
> FreeBSD box?
> Of course both boxes are on the same lan in a closed network. My FreeBSD
> box is running 5.4RC2.
> The Windows box is running Win2kPro.
>
> Here's my uname:
>
> [dgonzo at REDE2SRV:~] uname -a
> FreeBSD REDE2SRV 5.4-RC2 FreeBSD 5.4-RC2 #0: Mon Apr 25 10:53:34 EDT
> 2005     dgonzo at REDE2SRV.cablevision.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DAN1  i386
>
> I vaguely rememeber reading aout it somewhere, but I think it was in Dru
> Lavigne's "BSD Hacks", of which I no longer own a copy. (One of my co
> workers saw it , asked to read it and refuses to give it up).
>
> If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would be very grateful.
>
> Regards
> Dan Gonzalez
> Senior Maintenance Engineer
> Cablevision Lightpath
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


-- 
 nikolai dot fetissov \
 at peachisland dot com



From lists  Tue Jun 14 10:10:01 2005
From: lists (lists at genoverly.net)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:10:01 +0200
Subject: [nycbug-talk] True Mobile
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1DiC940ih5-0001AC@mrelay.perfora.net>


I remember Roland talking about one of these cards... very cool.

----------------------------------------------
Sony Ericsson touts 3G/Wi-Fi PC Card 'first'
By Tony Smith
Published Monday 13th June 2005 11:07 GMT

Sony Ericsson today extended its line of wireless PC Cards with a model
the brings together high-speed Wi-Fi and 3G mobile phone connectivity
onto the same unit.

Sony Ericsson GC99 3G, Wi-Fi PC CardThe phone maker claimed its GC99
card is "one of the first" of its kind, though we note Option, the
Belgian wireless PC Card specialist and the hidden hand behind many a
network-branded comms card, has been touting its own 3G/WLAN offering
for some time.

http://www.theregister.com/2005/06/13/sony_ericsson_gc99/



From george  Tue Jun 14 11:19:30 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:19:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] datacenter live cam
Message-ID: <20050614151930.GA29983@sta.local>

We are installing a security system, motion detectors, and wanted to
install cameras in the same locations at the same time.

So two questions, what is the best camera, and appropriate cabling?

We don't want cheap cameras, but there is no need for $200 units.
Already decided not to use wireless, was thinking to get a poe cameras
and switch and pull cat-5 at the same time as the security cabling.

No clue of vendors or models. Anybody setup something like this?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Tue Jun 14 11:21:38 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:21:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] datacenter live cam
In-Reply-To: <20050614151930.GA29983@sta.local>
References: <20050614151930.GA29983@sta.local>
Message-ID: <42AEF602.3090401@sddi.net>

George Georgalis wrote:
> We are installing a security system, motion detectors, and wanted to
> install cameras in the same locations at the same time.
> 
> So two questions, what is the best camera, and appropriate cabling?
> 
> We don't want cheap cameras, but there is no need for $200 units.
> Already decided not to use wireless, was thinking to get a poe cameras
> and switch and pull cat-5 at the same time as the security cabling.
> 
> No clue of vendors or models. Anybody setup something like this?

Start with Canal Alarm. . . it's Canal and 6th Ave.

They are probably a bit expensive and sophisticated for your needs, but 
it's a good beginning.

Reuben knows his stuff.  You'll recognize him. . . if you know what 
Serpico looks like. . .

g



From dlavigne6  Tue Jun 14 21:17:16 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:17:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] latest blog
Message-ID: <20050614211701.P584@dru.domain.org>


http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7228

Dru



From george  Tue Jun 14 21:20:52 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:20:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] latest blog
In-Reply-To: <20050614211701.P584@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050614211701.P584@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <42AF8274.10703@sddi.net>

Dru wrote:
> 
> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7228

Have a blast in Poland Dru.

Krakow is a gorgeous city. . .

g



From nomadlogic  Tue Jun 14 22:38:17 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:38:17 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] latest blog
In-Reply-To: <42AF8274.10703@sddi.net>
References: <20050614211701.P584@dru.domain.org> <42AF8274.10703@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <57d71000050614193851472393@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/14/05, George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> Dru wrote:
> >
> > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7228
> 
> Have a blast in Poland Dru.
> 
> Krakow is a gorgeous city. . .

nice blog dru.  i can see how this could be very usefull for when you
have to rebuild a server(s) while at a co-lo with meetered bandwidth
as well.  i'll have to file this link away.  thx!

-p


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From spork  Wed Jun 15 02:43:51 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jails and shared filesystems
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506150233160.355@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Hey all,

I'm hoping some of our resident jail experts can help out with this 
issue...

I've been playing around with 5.4 and jails for some time now, and for the 
most part everything is really nice; the addition of jail configs to 
rc.conf is excellent.

Here's my problem/question:

I will only be running maybe 4 or 5 jails on this box.  Two or more of 
these jails may need to share some files.  To add to the confusion, these 
two or three jails are somewhat unpredictable in their growth.  I've got 
about 270GB to work with.  While testing things, I just took that whole 
partition and called it "/jails" and then made "/jails/jail1", 
"/jails/jail2", etc.  Technically, that works.  But backing up and 
restoring one giant partition kind of makes me think twice about this.

What other options might I have?  I was thinking of grabbing 10-20GB and 
making that "/jails" and letting that be where my base system for each 
jail is installed.  This would also be "flat" and would hold any 
additional software.  I was then going to take the remaining space, and 
have each jail "mount" that, but apparently that's not really possible. 
At this point is where the jail/host thing gets confusing.  You can mount 
one filesystem once using the "/etc/fstab.jailx" method, but then you 
cannot share that space with other jails.

This brings me back to hacks like mount_null or NFS that I want to avoid.

Any ideas?  I'm thinking just making one giant partition is what I'll end 
up doing, but I wanted to run this by folks first.

Thanks,

Charles

ps - next up, quotas!  that looks fun...

___
Charles Sprickman
NetEng/SysAdmin
Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net
spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344




From george  Wed Jun 15 10:02:10 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:02:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] datacenter live cam
In-Reply-To: <42AEF602.3090401@sddi.net>
References: <20050614151930.GA29983@sta.local> <42AEF602.3090401@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050615140210.GB14186@sta.local>

On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 11:21:38AM -0400, G Rosamond wrote:
>George Georgalis wrote:
>>We are installing a security system, motion detectors, and wanted to
>>install cameras in the same locations at the same time.
>>
>>So two questions, what is the best camera, and appropriate cabling?
>>
>>We don't want cheap cameras, but there is no need for $200 units.
>>Already decided not to use wireless, was thinking to get a poe cameras
>>and switch and pull cat-5 at the same time as the security cabling.
>>
>>No clue of vendors or models. Anybody setup something like this?
>
>Start with Canal Alarm. . . it's Canal and 6th Ave.

well, I was really interested in which devices where most compatible,
what software would be good and whether poe is the best way to go, or
is there a better choice, since we're pulling cable.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From steve.rieger  Wed Jun 15 16:53:32 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:53:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
Message-ID: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>

hi all am trying (dont even know if this is possible) to prevent anybody 
and all from accessing anhy files via http directly

i know the proper syntax for preventing hotlinking


# cat .htaccess
RewriteEngine on
RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} .
#RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?mydomain\.(com?net) [NC]
RewriteRule \.(gif|jpg|bmp|mid|css)$ - [F,NC]

but say that you know that i have a jpg at 
http://www.mydomain.com/stever/junk/001.jpg

i need to prevent anybody from pasting that into their browser and 
getting that image. the above htaccess file aint working, how can i make 
this happen.



thanx


-- 
--
Steve Rieger
(212) 804-1131   (Work)
(646) 335-8915   (Cell)
chozrim           (aim)




From mspitzer  Wed Jun 15 18:02:35 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:02:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/15/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> hi all am trying (dont even know if this is possible) to prevent anybody
> and all from accessing anhy files via http directly
> 

hmm.

one way to raise the bar is to generate the links with javascript on
the client, you can not copy the link with out.  Your real problem is
that things are cached on the client so to lift your stuff I do the
following:

1: clear cache on firebird
2: hit your website
3: go through the cache, digital dumpster diving.

marc

ps there may be some neat firebird modules that make this even easier.

marc

> i know the proper syntax for preventing hotlinking
> 
> 
> # cat .htaccess
> RewriteEngine on
> RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} .
> #RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?mydomain\.(com?net) [NC]
> RewriteRule \.(gif|jpg|bmp|mid|css)$ - [F,NC]
> 
> but say that you know that i have a jpg at
> http://www.mydomain.com/stever/junk/001.jpg
> 
> i need to prevent anybody from pasting that into their browser and
> getting that image. the above htaccess file aint working, how can i make
> this happen.
> 
> 
> 
> thanx
> 
> 
> --
> --
> Steve Rieger
> (212) 804-1131   (Work)
> (646) 335-8915   (Cell)
> chozrim           (aim)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From ike  Wed Jun 15 19:30:35 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 19:30:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>

Hi Steve,

On Jun 15, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On 6/15/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
>> hi all am trying (dont even know if this is possible) to prevent 
>> anybody
>> and all from accessing anhy files via http directly

Thing is- I'm assuming for the rest of my response to this post that 
you *do* want the images to load into web pages visa http, but you 
*don't* want people to just grab them individually.

In a big-picture nutshell, I'm sad to report you cannot both provide 
access and deny access to the image files- the usual suite of 
obfuscation tricks are trivially bypassed by anyone who wants the 
images and has 20 minutes to spare figuring it out.

--
More good stuff on 'hotlinking', which is quite a realistic way prevent 
loading of the images from web-pages on another server, using nifty 
'referer' stuff:

http://apache-server.com/tutorials/ATimage-theft.html

>>
>
> hmm.
>
> one way to raise the bar is to generate the links with javascript on
> the client, you can not copy the link with out.  Your real problem is
> that things are cached on the client so to lift your stuff I do the
> following:
>
> 1: clear cache on firebird
> 2: hit your website
> 3: go through the cache, digital dumpster diving.
>
> marc
>
> ps there may be some neat firebird modules that make this even easier.
>
> marc

Marc's right, and I'd add big-picture, that if you allow *any* sort of 
access to the image files, you cannot stop people from *ever* getting 
at the source .jpg files.  I'd even throw in that I know some flash 
folks who keep all sorts of dirty little tools for extracting images 
from even flash files and movie clips, in the browser cache.

>
>> i know the proper syntax for preventing hotlinking
>>
>>
>> # cat .htaccess
>> RewriteEngine on
>> RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} .
>> #RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?mydomain\.(com?net) [NC]
>> RewriteRule \.(gif|jpg|bmp|mid|css)$ - [F,NC]
>>
>> but say that you know that i have a jpg at
>> http://www.mydomain.com/stever/junk/001.jpg
>>
>> i need to prevent anybody from pasting that into their browser and
>> getting that image. the above htaccess file aint working, how can i 
>> make
>> this happen.

Now, aside from my above naysaying, one obfuscation method *could* get 
you what you need if your experiencing a problem- but it suffers from 
the cache-splunking problem as well here-

You could use the referrer tag, ala the anti-'hotlinking' config stuff 
above, and only serve images based on the calling page as the referrer. 
  It still can be bypassed with the image cache problem, but it would 
make the server exhibit the behaviour your wanting.

Regardless, DRM is a joke...
http://lisag.com/photos/011605/flava%20flav%20on%20set.jpg

Rocket-
.ike


>>
>>
>>
>> thanx




From lists  Wed Jun 15 21:19:35 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:19:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> In a big-picture nutshell, I'm sad to report you cannot both provide access 
> and deny access to the image files- the usual suite of obfuscation tricks are 
> trivially bypassed by anyone who wants the images and has 20 minutes to spare 
> figuring it out.

Not sure if this is possible, but....
How about having them in a directory outside the "root" for the domain and 
have PHP get them..

ie
document root /usr/local/www/somedomain

images in
/usr/local/www/somedomain-pics

PHP would have to send the HTTP requests for the images though..



From mspitzer  Wed Jun 15 22:01:27 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:01:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
	<20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/15/05, Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> > In a big-picture nutshell, I'm sad to report you cannot both provide access
> > and deny access to the image files- the usual suite of obfuscation tricks are
> > trivially bypassed by anyone who wants the images and has 20 minutes to spare
> > figuring it out.
> 
> Not sure if this is possible, but....
> How about having them in a directory outside the "root" for the domain and
> have PHP get them..
> 
> ie
> document root /usr/local/www/somedomain
> 
> images in
> /usr/local/www/somedomain-picse
> 
> PHP would have to send the HTTP requests for the images though..
> 

besides the point,  Remember he wants people to see the images so they
must be delivered to the far end to be viewed.  Once that happens he
has absolutly zero control over what happens to the image.  Now lsts
say he figures out how to prevent them from being cached by the
browser it makes no difference because the full and complete image
goes over the wire so all you need is an image grabbing packet sniffer
and that has been done.

marc



From george  Thu Jun 16 00:51:08 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:51:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20050616045108.GA2308@ixeon.local>

On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 04:53:32PM -0400, steve rieger wrote:
>hi all am trying (dont even know if this is possible) to prevent anybody 
>and all from accessing anhy files via http directly
>
>i know the proper syntax for preventing hotlinking
>
>
># cat .htaccess
>RewriteEngine on
>RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} .
>#RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?mydomain\.(com?net) [NC]
>RewriteRule \.(gif|jpg|bmp|mid|css)$ - [F,NC]
>
>but say that you know that i have a jpg at 
>http://www.mydomain.com/stever/junk/001.jpg
>
>i need to prevent anybody from pasting that into their browser and 
>getting that image. the above htaccess file aint working, how can i make 
>this happen.


one approach is to slice it up into 4, 6, or 9 pieces, render it in your
page with tables... people can still reconstruct the image from the
cache, or saving the web page, printing to postscript, etc etc, but you
knew can't stop everyone all the time. You could get real obscure and
take over lapping sections and carefully overlap/reconstruct them...
make the boundries and html random generated by a script; you think
anyone would reconstruct them?

I tried this once but it didn't work for me...

http://httpd.apache.org/docs/env.html
Prevent "Image Theft"
http://www.serverwatch.com/tutorials/article.php/1132731
Keeping Your Images from Adorning Other Sites
        SetEnvIfNoCase Referer "^http://my.apache.org/" local_ref=1
        <FilesMatch ".(gif|jpg)">
            Order Allow,Deny
            Allow from env=local_ref
        </FilesMatch>


// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From lists  Thu Jun 16 01:13:37 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:13:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <0MKz5u-1Dimh82olU-00026E@mrelay.perfora.net>


> hi all am trying (dont even know if this is possible) to prevent anybody
> and all from accessing anhy files via http directly
> 
> i know the proper syntax for preventing hotlinking
> 
> 
> # cat .htaccess
> RewriteEngine on
> RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} .
> #RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?mydomain\.(com|net) [NC]
> RewriteRule \.(gif|jpg|bmp|mid|css)$ - [F,NC]
> 
> but say that you know that i have a jpg at
> http://www.mydomain.com/stever/junk/001.jpg
> 
> i need to prevent anybody from pasting that into their browser and
> getting that image. the above htaccess file aint working, how can i make
> this happen.

For this last paragraph, you can use:

http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/core.html#files
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/core.html#filesmatch

And there's of course:

http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/core.html#directory
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/core.html#directory

And:

http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/core.html#directory
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/core.html#locationmatch

It just depends on how you exactly want Apache to behave.


---
Hans Zaunere
President, Founder

New York PHP
http://www.nyphp.org

AMP Technology
Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP







From ike  Thu Jun 16 02:06:14 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:06:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <20050616045108.GA2308@ixeon.local>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com> <20050616045108.GA2308@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <4c1f4c30e34a2c5f2a1f2a4c391a1ae3@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 16, 2005, at 12:51 AM, George Georgalis wrote:

> You could get real obscure and
> take over lapping sections and carefully overlap/reconstruct them...
> make the boundries and html random generated by a script; you think
> anyone would reconstruct them?

Personally, I take it as sport to stitch this stuff together with 
scripts, when I want the content...

Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Thu Jun 16 03:25:44 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 03:25:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
	<20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050616032422.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

>> document root /usr/local/www/somedomain
>> images in
>> /usr/local/www/somedomain-picse
>>
>> PHP would have to send the HTTP requests for the images though..
>>
>
> besides the point,  Remember he wants people to see the images so they
> must be delivered to the far end to be viewed.  Once that happens he
> has absolutly zero control over what happens to the image.  Now lsts
> say he figures out how to prevent them from being cached by the
> browser it makes no difference

I must have missunderstood his goal. I thought his primary goal was to 
prevent people from getting access to an image directly... ie.. to not 
allow someone to do http://domain.com/image.jpg



From ike  Thu Jun 16 04:53:11 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:53:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jails and shared filesystems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506150233160.355@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506150233160.355@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <24caabc226dbe97f75f6b77afacd3ff9@lesmuug.org>

Hi Charles, All,

On Jun 15, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm hoping some of our resident jail experts can help out with this  
> issue...
>
> I've been playing around with 5.4 and jails for some time now, and for  
> the most part everything is really nice; the addition of jail configs  
> to rc.conf is excellent.

Dude- can you elaborate on this one, (sorry for the tangent here)?

I've not had/made time to dive into the boot/rc configs for jailing, as  
I've always avoided starting jails on boot like the plague based on  
problems experienced long ago during the height of the 4.x era...

- How do you like the rc.conf stuff for setting up jails?

- What facility, if any, is available to mitigate all the nasty  
problems which can raise their head when a single jail barfs during  
system boot?

- Is there anything in the rc system that helps the system deal with  
the fact it could be trying to simultaneously start up *many* different  
daemon apps, (simultaneously!) while each jail starts?

- Any comments on all the buttons/knobs/bells/whistles which are  
noteworthy?

Thx. for any comments here, (from anyone actually!), Charles, back to  
your question,

>
> Here's my problem/question:
>
> I will only be running maybe 4 or 5 jails on this box.  Two or more of  
> these jails may need to share some files.  To add to the confusion,  
> these two or three jails are somewhat unpredictable in their growth.   
> I've got about 270GB to work with.  While testing things, I just took  
> that whole partition and called it "/jails" and then made  
> "/jails/jail1", "/jails/jail2", etc.  Technically, that works.

Solid plan actually,

> But backing up and restoring one giant partition kind of makes me  
> think twice about this.

Yep.  What about breaking it up by userland disk contents, instead of  
the whole disk being backed up?  I've actually come to love an aspect  
of FreeBSD's relative userland consistency, i.e. one can back up /usr  
and /etc from a jail be in really great shape in most restore/upgrade  
contexts...

Also, not sure if disk-resource based attacks are a threat here (many  
contexts it can create more problems to try to address this- right),  
but...

>
> What other options might I have?

I have no word yet on nullfs being fixed (anyone? anyone?)- as of  
BSDCan it was still widely known to be broken and in need of a  
maintainer.  I'm not sure if this situation has changed.  DevFS,  
similar problems...

--
As another tangent (on my brain recently), you could locally mount  
remote raw disk partitions using Geom Gate - (it's been committed to  
FreeBSD source since 5.4, I believe, and I've been futzing with it in  
the BKNY lab...).

2003 initial Release:
http://kerneltrap.org/node/1003

2004 Commited to FreeBSD:
http://kerneltrap.org/news/freebsd?from=20

ggated(8), ggatec(8), ggatel(8) are the utilities to use Geom Gate.
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi? 
query=ggated&sektion=8&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+5.4-RELEASE

- NOTE ON PRODUCTION STABILITY -
Some folks I met in Canada are running Ggate stuff in production  
(conservatively), and report it as rock solid.  (I met the guy Pawel  
who wrote it, and he's razor sharp- and very actively continuing Geom  
work, so I'd personally lean towards trusting this stuff in production  
[but my conservative side wants to give it another year or two to  
mature].)  The Geom subsystem is *the* way to do disk stuff now, so  
weather or not it's as solid as ye' old 4.x disk drivers yet, it's the  
de-facto, and just going to get faster/better etc...

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw this in, as you could mount remote disk  
partitions with what seems to be something *way* faster and more  
bulletproof than nfs- just by throwing some copper gig-e nics and  
crossover cables at the problem...

(I was thinking about this for mounting /usr/ports as readonly across  
jailing boxen, and using localhost to repeatedly mount the disk for  
local jails (orchestrating all the mounting from the host systems), and  
have ports identical and up to date for all jailed servers across the  
lan...
--


> I was thinking of grabbing 10-20GB and making that "/jails" and  
> letting that be where my base system for each jail is installed.  This  
> would also be "flat" and would hold any additional software.  I was  
> then going to take the remaining space, and have each jail "mount"  
> that, but apparently that's not really possible.

Well, the jails themselves can't mount mount the volumes, but you could  
mount them from the host server- just by making the mountpoint exist in  
the jail directory trees.

I mean it sounds like you've got a case for getting down with  
filesystem quotas, imposed from the host system, on a big flat slice...  
  (Feels sanest to me in this case).


> At this point is where the jail/host thing gets confusing.  You can  
> mount one filesystem once using the "/etc/fstab.jailx" method, but  
> then you cannot share that space with other jails.

?  I'm confused, but I'm guessing this is about partitioning each  
jailed system (whomever setup the /etc/fstab.jailx thing beinb very  
conscious of mitigating resource-based problems, and being all *nix-fu  
with partitioning...)  Hrm.  I really need to make time to see what  
direction the rc jailing stuff is going...

>
> This brings me back to hacks like mount_null or NFS that I want to  
> avoid.

or ggated for that matter...  I guess it all adds complexity.

>
> Any ideas?  I'm thinking just making one giant partition is what I'll  
> end up doing, but I wanted to run this by folks first.

 From what I'm hearing in your post, I personally believe one giant  
partition, and perhaps some disk quota use, is indeed sanest.  If your  
going for disaster-recovery for the jails, the quickest/simplest  
strategy involves making 4 tarballs:

1) a 'base' jail system tarball, the same thing for each jail, which  
can be rolled-out very quickly to make a new jail (on different  
hardware box even if necessary)

2) a 'base' config tarball, perhaps /etc/rc.conf and /etc.resolv.conf

3) /usr/*stuff* from each jailed system

4) start scripts and misc. for the jails

--
If you keep consistent religious tar-balls in a manner relevant to your  
setup, you can recover from complete failure in as much time as it  
takes to unpack the tarballs... without having to deal with backing up  
the *entire* disk partiton.  But backup strategies are a bigger topic  
than my bastardized recommendation here, in many cases.

>
> Thanks,
>
> Charles
>
> ps - next up, quotas!  that looks fun...

Heh- here we go...  Anyone have any *serious* quota experience to  
share?  (my experience has been that when employed, quotas simply work  
as the man page says... transparently, nothin' to write home about...   
Any of the Good-bad-Ugly out there with regard to quotas?)

Rocket-
.ike




From steve.rieger  Thu Jun 16 10:12:28 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:12:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <20050616032422.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>	<20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>	<8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050616032422.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42B188CC.8090100@tbwachiat.com>

Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>>> document root /usr/local/www/somedomain
>>> images in
>>> /usr/local/www/somedomain-picse
>>>
>>> PHP would have to send the HTTP requests for the images though..
>>>
>>
>> besides the point,  Remember he wants people to see the images so they
>> must be delivered to the far end to be viewed.  Once that happens he
>> has absolutly zero control over what happens to the image.  Now lsts
>> say he figures out how to prevent them from being cached by the
>> browser it makes no difference
>
>
> I must have missunderstood his goal. I thought his primary goal was to 
> prevent people from getting access to an image directly... ie.. to not 
> allow someone to do http://domain.com/image.jpg
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>
>
thats correct i do not want you to be able to get 
http://www.somedomain.com.images/image1.jog but when browsing you will 
be allowed to go to http://www.somedomain.com/index.html  anything below 
that can not be directly accessible only if the browser return that.

i am not worried about people trying to grab the images. as they wont 
even know that they exist, this site takes input from the user and puts 
together a package that includes images and movies. and i do not want 
somebody to be able to bookmark one of those movies or images and refer 
to it at a later date.

hope i made myself clear.

-- 
--
Steve Rieger
(212) 804-1131   (Work)
(646) 335-8915   (Cell)
chozrim           (aim)




From lists  Thu Jun 16 10:30:13 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:30:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <42B188CC.8090100@tbwachiat.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
	<20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050616032422.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42B188CC.8090100@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20050616103013.4cd69111@genoverly.com>

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:12:28 -0400
Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:

> i am not worried about people trying to grab the images. as they wont 
> even know that they exist, this site takes input from the user and puts 
> together a package that includes images and movies. and i do not want 
> somebody to be able to bookmark one of those movies or images and refer 
> to it at a later date.
> 
> hope i made myself clear.

How about using a session and if it expired, you can not retrieve the files?

Tell them; this is available for 2 minutes, or something like that.  Have a server side script (like php or something similar) take the url string, interpret it, check it against the server session, and make a decision.  

Michael



-- 



From max  Thu Jun 16 10:53:56 2005
From: max (max)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:53:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <20050616103013.4cd69111@genoverly.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
	<20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050616032422.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42B188CC.8090100@tbwachiat.com>
	<20050616103013.4cd69111@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <20050616145356.GA57229@neuropunks.org>

And on top of this you can store your images in a db (yes lotsa overhead for busy sites) and generate them on the fly, with random names once session is established, and then unlink them once that session is terminated. Of course, you can only imagine the overhead involved..
Another point was to use tables, Ive seen people use the actual image as the background for a table, and then overlay 1pixel gif into that table, so right-clicking will save the pixel. Of course viewing source, and wget'ing is possible, but then you can start denying requests for any browser id besides ie/mozilla, but then i rewrite my browser id, and the game goes on..
You can also mess with jpeg headers to uniquely tag images (theres a jpeg perl module somewhere on span), or may be with steganography, to at least be able to track their spread through inet, provided people dont look for these things.

max



On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 10:30:13AM -0400, michael wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:12:28 -0400
> Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> 
> > i am not worried about people trying to grab the images. as they wont 
> > even know that they exist, this site takes input from the user and puts 
> > together a package that includes images and movies. and i do not want 
> > somebody to be able to bookmark one of those movies or images and refer 
> > to it at a later date.
> > 
> > hope i made myself clear.
> 
> How about using a session and if it expired, you can not retrieve the files?
> 
> Tell them; this is available for 2 minutes, or something like that.  Have a server side script (like php or something similar) take the url string, interpret it, check it against the server session, and make a decision.  
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 



From lists  Thu Jun 16 12:20:07 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 12:20:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] direct file access denied via htaccess
In-Reply-To: <42B188CC.8090100@tbwachiat.com>
References: <42B0954C.90005@tbwachiat.com>
	<8c50a3c30506151502c544fb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<92d98570f6d5a5e605298c1c77d61af6@lesmuug.org>
	<20050615211348.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30506151901593d1a9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050616032422.J92911@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42B188CC.8090100@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20050616121848.Q948@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Steve Rieger wrote:

> Francisco Reyes wrote:
>>>> document root /usr/local/www/somedomain
>>>> images in
>>>> /usr/local/www/somedomain-pics
>>>> 
>>>> PHP would have to send the HTTP requests for the images though..

> thats correct i do not want you to be able to get 
> http://www.somedomain.com.images/image1.jog but when browsing you will be 
> allowed to go to http://www.somedomain.com/index.html

Ok, so what I wrote above may do the trick for you.



From megan.restuccia  Thu Jun 16 14:04:56 2005
From: megan.restuccia (Megan Restuccia)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:04:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] Security Opening in NY
Message-ID: <4154690.1118945096740.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net>

<disclaimer>Since I don't seem to ever get a response from the jobs list - I am sending this here.</disclaimer>

Columbia is looking for a Security and design person.  If interested email me your resume.

Here is the description of the job, and the pay is 65,000-76,000 depending on experience.  If you know anyone who may be interested, forward it on and send it to me.  

This person will be working DIRECTLY with me as my counterpart in the network group, if you refer them, send me a note with your thoughts - please.

Megan
---------------------------------------------------------

Candidate must demonstrate strong technical skills in the design, implementation, troubleshooting, and support of multi-vendor, multi-protocol LAN/WAN environments. High level knowledge of network/security best practices, and protocols/applications including IPSec, SSH, PPTP, L2TP, LEAP, PEAP, 802.1X, 802.11i, Raduis, TACACS+, Ciscosecure ACS, Cisco VPN, Ciscoworks, Netflow, IDS (PureSEcure), Ethereal, Snort. Hands on experience with unix and linux operating systems and shell and perl scripting languages; manipulate data from system logs and maintain systems/tools/applications related to IDS, IPS, and network/security. Collaborate with departmental staff, system administrators and third parties (vendor, etc) in troubleshooting and implementing network security solutions. Educate users and partners on security issues and policies. Provide leadership in 3rd level troubleshooting. Participate in weekly 24 hr./7day week on-call rotation.   



From george  Thu Jun 16 20:07:06 2005
From: george (George)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:07:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
Message-ID: <42B2142A.1010004@sddi.net>

Some pretty abrasive comments here, but nothing *I'd* disagree with. . .

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html

And also. . .

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html

you can use:
lynam
gabrielle

from bugmenot.com. . .

Would love to hear some feedback on this. . .

I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.

g



From nycbug  Fri Jun 17 08:05:06 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:05:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2142A.1010004@sddi.net>
References: <42B2142A.1010004@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050617120506.GA31871@syntax.cyth.net>

On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:07:06PM -0400, George wrote:
> Some pretty abrasive comments here, but nothing *I'd* disagree with. . .

I agree.

> http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html
> 
> And also. . .
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html
> 
> you can use:
> lynam
> gabrielle
> 
> from bugmenot.com. . .
> 
> Would love to hear some feedback on this. . .

Probably not the feedback you're looking for, but you just pasted
the same link twice. =)

> I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.

I think this article is a lot better than the NewsForge one.

-Ray-



From nycbug  Fri Jun 17 08:40:21 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:40:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2BCD0.6050607@sddi.net>
References: <42B2142A.1010004@sddi.net>
	<20050617120506.GA31871@syntax.cyth.net>
	<42B2BCD0.6050607@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050617124021.GB31871@syntax.cyth.net>

On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 08:06:40AM -0400, George wrote:
> http://www.forbes.com/membership/signup.jhtml?comingFrom=magazine&gotoDescription=See%20The%20Story&gotoURL=%2Fforbes%2F2005%2F0704%2F071.html&storyURL=/forbes/2005/0704/071.html&storyURI=/cms/template/story/mag/story.jhtml?story=/forbes/2005/0704/071.html&_requestid=38511

Does anyone know if
<http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-pmax/1994/12/13/0017.html> is
what Daniel Lyons called ``a blistering, obscene diatribe so
devastating it was forwarded to hundreds of techies for their
entertainment''?  Doesn't seem very obscene at all.

-Ray-



From alex  Fri Jun 17 08:44:17 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:44:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <20050617124021.GB31871@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506170843290.27593-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Ray wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 08:06:40AM -0400, George wrote:
> > http://www.forbes.com/membership/signup.jhtml?comingFrom=magazine&gotoDescription=See%20The%20Story&gotoURL=%2Fforbes%2F2005%2F0704%2F071.html&storyURL=/forbes/2005/0704/071.html&storyURI=/cms/template/story/mag/story.jhtml?story=/forbes/2005/0704/071.html&_requestid=38511
> 
> Does anyone know if
> <http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-pmax/1994/12/13/0017.html> is
> what Daniel Lyons called ``a blistering, obscene diatribe so
> devastating it was forwarded to hundreds of techies for their
> entertainment''?  Doesn't seem very obscene at all.
Could be any of his posts to obsd-misc - I read them every week for
entertainment value. 

Theo is awesome. 

-alex




From nycbug  Fri Jun 17 09:10:24 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:10:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506170843290.27593-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <20050617124021.GB31871@syntax.cyth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506170843290.27593-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050617131024.GC31871@syntax.cyth.net>

On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 08:44:17AM -0400, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Ray wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 08:06:40AM -0400, George wrote:
> > > http://www.forbes.com/membership/signup.jhtml?comingFrom=magazine&gotoDescription=See%20The%20Story&gotoURL=%2Fforbes%2F2005%2F0704%2F071.html&storyURL=/forbes/2005/0704/071.html&storyURI=/cms/template/story/mag/story.jhtml?story=/forbes/2005/0704/071.html&_requestid=38511
> > 
> > Does anyone know if
> > <http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-pmax/1994/12/13/0017.html> is
> > what Daniel Lyons called ``a blistering, obscene diatribe so
> > devastating it was forwarded to hundreds of techies for their
> > entertainment''?  Doesn't seem very obscene at all.
>
> Could be any of his posts to obsd-misc - I read them every week for
> entertainment value. 

Well Daniel specifically referred to an e-mail Theo wrote in response
to an apology that was a catalyst to his expulsion from core@, and
I was just curious.

> Theo is awesome. 

Yes he is: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/mg/theo.c

-Ray-



From jschauma  Fri Jun 17 09:56:41 2005
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:56:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2142A.1010004@sddi.net>
References: <42B2142A.1010004@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050617135641.GA27624@netmeister.org>

George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
 
> I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.

I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
regarding other OS.

It would be easy for anybody to get the impression that _all_ BSD
developers and -users are equally aggressive and insulting, and I for
one would rather not be thrown into that melting pot.

In general, I prefer *BSD to present itself in a friendly, open and
mature matter that emphasizes it's strength, but doesn't insult or
ridicule similar or competing products.

-Jan

-- 
Ancient Principle of WYGIWYGAINGW:
What You Get Is What You're Given, And It's No Good Whining.
--Terry Pratchett et al. (The Science of Discworld)
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From mickey  Fri Jun 17 10:11:44 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:11:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <20050617135641.GA27624@netmeister.org> from Jan Schaumann at "Jun
	17, 2005 09:56:41 am"
Message-ID: <200506171411.j5HEBimW007879@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Jan Schaumann:
-- Start of PGP signed section.
> George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
>  
> > I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.
> 
> I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> regarding other OS.

yeah right.
let's just close the eyes and pretend that shit is honey.
kamon. linux IS rediculous.

> It would be easy for anybody to get the impression that _all_ BSD
> developers and -users are equally aggressive and insulting, and I for
> one would rather not be thrown into that melting pot.
> 
> In general, I prefer *BSD to present itself in a friendly, open and
> mature matter that emphasizes it's strength, but doesn't insult or
> ridicule similar or competing products.

yes. and how many things in the world has happened
because people were nice? perhaps only tripper...

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From mickey  Fri Jun 17 10:18:59 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:18:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <20050617120506.GA31871@syntax.cyth.net> from Ray at "Jun 17, 2005
	08:05:06 am"
Message-ID: <200506171418.j5HEIxo1005420@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Ray:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:07:06PM -0400, George wrote:
> > Some pretty abrasive comments here, but nothing *I'd* disagree with. . .
> 
> I agree.
> 
> > http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html
> > 
> > And also. . .
> > 
> > http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html
> > 
> > you can use:
> > lynam
> > gabrielle
> > 
> > from bugmenot.com. . .
> > 
> > Would love to hear some feedback on this. . .
> 
> Probably not the feedback you're looking for, but you just pasted
> the same link twice. =)
> 
> > I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.
> 
> I think this article is a lot better than the NewsForge one.

that and three other interviews are from people who have no
idea what the hell to ask about. i've had street bums produce
more intelligent questions than those idiots.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From dan  Fri Jun 17 10:55:08 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:55:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <200506171411.j5HEBimW007879@lucifier.net>
References: <20050617135641.GA27624@netmeister.org> from Jan Schaumann at
	"Jun	17, 2005 09:56:41 am"
Message-ID: <42B2AC0C.18249.7BB8727@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2005 at 10:11, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Jan Schaumann:
> -- Start of PGP signed section.
> > George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> >  
> > > I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.
> > 
> > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > regarding other OS.
> 
> yeah right.
> let's just close the eyes and pretend that shit is honey.
> kamon. linux IS rediculous.

It's not what you say, it is how you say it.  In my advocacy, I tend 
to point out the benefits of what I advocate, instead of [what I see 
to be] the deficiences of the 'competition'.

> > It would be easy for anybody to get the impression that _all_ BSD
> > developers and -users are equally aggressive and insulting, and I for
> > one would rather not be thrown into that melting pot.
> > 
> > In general, I prefer *BSD to present itself in a friendly, open and
> > mature matter that emphasizes it's strength, but doesn't insult or
> > ridicule similar or competing products.
> 
> yes. and how many things in the world has happened
> because people were nice? perhaps only tripper...

Lots of things have happened to me.  Most of them good.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From mickey  Fri Jun 17 10:43:45 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2AC0C.18249.7BB8727@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17, 
	2005 10:55:08 am"
Message-ID: <200506171443.j5HEhj2e009365@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> On 17 Jun 2005 at 10:11, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> 
> > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Jan Schaumann:
> > -- Start of PGP signed section.
> > > George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> > >  
> > > > I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.
> > > 
> > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > regarding other OS.
> > 
> > yeah right.
> > let's just close the eyes and pretend that shit is honey.
> > kamon. linux IS rediculous.
> 
> It's not what you say, it is how you say it.  In my advocacy, I tend 
> to point out the benefits of what I advocate, instead of [what I see 
> to be] the deficiences of the 'competition'.

if you mean deficiences of the _competitor_ than
yes that's what exactly the article sez -- it's deficient.

what is so wrong that is said there?
it is a very politely expressed opinion -- linux is crap.
is it not? would you prefer a nicer definition of "retarded"
instead?

do you honestly believe that linux is a great piece of software?

> > > It would be easy for anybody to get the impression that _all_ BSD
> > > developers and -users are equally aggressive and insulting, and I for
> > > one would rather not be thrown into that melting pot.
> > > 
> > > In general, I prefer *BSD to present itself in a friendly, open and
> > > mature matter that emphasizes it's strength, but doesn't insult or
> > > ridicule similar or competing products.
> > 
> > yes. and how many things in the world has happened
> > because people were nice? perhaps only tripper...
> 
> Lots of things have happened to me.  Most of them good.

perhaps when you tried the opposite you were not nice (:

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From alex  Fri Jun 17 11:14:28 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:14:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <200506171443.j5HEhj2e009365@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506171105310.27593-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> if you mean deficiences of the _competitor_ than yes that's what exactly
> the article sez -- it's deficient.
> 
> what is so wrong that is said there? it is a very politely expressed
> opinion -- linux is crap. is it not? would you prefer a nicer definition
> of "retarded" instead?
mmm yes, I seriously would.

Linux has good parts and bad parts. You may disagree with software 
development and QA process (or lack thereof). In many cases, it is in the 
eye of the beholder. 

However, there are concrete things where linux *is* better than FBSD and
you would do disservice by just poo-pooing it. These are just things why
*I* use Linux for certain things.

a) support for far more hardware

b) iproute2/policy routing/multiple ribs - 'ipfw fwd' doesn't compare

c) linux tc/action is far better than altq. 

d) clustered filesystems (gfs/opengfs/ocfs) 

There are many things where BSD is better - for example, netgraph and geom 
have no equivalent on linux-side. 

With regard to VM system: I think at this point, its a tossup. Different 
versions of linux have differently working/behaving VM. You may think its 
a bad thing, I won't necessarily agree. 

> do you honestly believe that linux is a great piece of software?
Basically, I believe, right tool for the right job. Wild-eyed zealotry is 
something that *linux* people like to do, and you are right to hate on 
them for it! (got you:)


-alex




From ike  Fri Jun 17 14:37:18 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:37:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris order
Message-ID: <45e3deb43206be90773b9c0337779350@lesmuug.org>

Hey all,

Anyone saving up to do a soekris order?  I'm grabbing a net4801 with 
case late next week for a client- just thought I'd shout out to see if 
anyone wants to piggy-back the order...

Rocket-
.ike




From dan  Fri Jun 17 15:48:51 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:48:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <200506171443.j5HEhj2e009365@lucifier.net>
References: <42B2AC0C.18249.7BB8727@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17,
	2005 10:55:08 am"
Message-ID: <42B2F0E3.27242.8C86EC1@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2005 at 10:43, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > On 17 Jun 2005 at 10:11, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > 
> > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Jan Schaumann:
> > > -- Start of PGP signed section.
> > > > George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > > regarding other OS.
> > > 
> > > yeah right.
> > > let's just close the eyes and pretend that shit is honey.
> > > kamon. linux IS rediculous.
> > 
> > It's not what you say, it is how you say it.  In my advocacy, I tend 
> > to point out the benefits of what I advocate, instead of [what I see 
> > to be] the deficiences of the 'competition'.
> 
> if you mean deficiences of the _competitor_ than
> yes that's what exactly the article sez -- it's deficient.
> 
> what is so wrong that is said there?
> it is a very politely expressed opinion -- linux is crap.
> is it not? would you prefer a nicer definition of "retarded"
> instead?
> 
> do you honestly believe that linux is a great piece of software?

You are either ignoring my point or overlooking it.

I will highlight it here:

> > It's not what you say, it is how you say it.  In my advocacy, I tend 
> > to point out the benefits of what I advocate, instead of [what I see 
> > to be] the deficiences of the 'competition'.

Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
project.



-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From dan  Fri Jun 17 16:06:50 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:06:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2F0E3.27242.8C86EC1@localhost>
References: <200506171443.j5HEhj2e009365@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <42B2F51A.1802.8D8E460@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2005 at 15:48, Dan Langille wrote:

> Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  

That reads better as "to show why" or "to show what", but not both...
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From mickey  Fri Jun 17 16:04:35 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:04:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2F0E3.27242.8C86EC1@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17, 
	2005 03:48:51 pm"
Message-ID: <200506172004.j5HK4Z7v007798@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> On 17 Jun 2005 at 10:43, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> 
> > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > > On 17 Jun 2005 at 10:11, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Jan Schaumann:
> > > > -- Start of PGP signed section.
> > > > > George <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> > > > >  
> > > > > > I personally think Theo's on the mark, and it's great publicity for BSDLand.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > > > regarding other OS.
> > > > 
> > > > yeah right.
> > > > let's just close the eyes and pretend that shit is honey.
> > > > kamon. linux IS rediculous.
> > > 
> > > It's not what you say, it is how you say it.  In my advocacy, I tend 
> > > to point out the benefits of what I advocate, instead of [what I see 
> > > to be] the deficiences of the 'competition'.
> > 
> > if you mean deficiences of the _competitor_ than
> > yes that's what exactly the article sez -- it's deficient.
> > 
> > what is so wrong that is said there?
> > it is a very politely expressed opinion -- linux is crap.
> > is it not? would you prefer a nicer definition of "retarded"
> > instead?
> > 
> > do you honestly believe that linux is a great piece of software?
> 
> You are either ignoring my point or overlooking it.
> 
> I will highlight it here:
> 
> > > It's not what you say, it is how you say it.  In my advocacy, I tend 
> > > to point out the benefits of what I advocate, instead of [what I see 
> > > to be] the deficiences of the 'competition'.
> 
> Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
> That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
> that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
> very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
> project.

the question was not for presenting openbsd in the best possible
light but rather for one particular dude's opinion on linux.
so his opinion seems to be -- linux is garbage.
you are free to disagree w/ that but you are most certainly
not in a position to police his opinion.

i for one agree on that linux is beyond crap and freebsd
is also on the express track to the septic tank and there is
alot of idiots out there who are going to reap their hemorroids
trying to prove me wrong instead of going to fix any of that...

i would think it be much more appropriate if more people would
have a well articulated opinion about linux (or anything else
for that matter) rather than having opinions about other people's
opinions... although i would not expect it in this decade...

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From dan  Fri Jun 17 16:33:53 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:33:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <200506172004.j5HK4Z7v007798@lucifier.net>
References: <42B2F0E3.27242.8C86EC1@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17,
	2005 03:48:51 pm"
Message-ID: <42B2FB71.13791.8F1A913@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:04, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:

> > Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> > one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
> > That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
> > that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
> > very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
> > project.
> 
> the question was not for presenting openbsd in the best possible
> light but rather for one particular dude's opinion on linux.
> so his opinion seems to be -- linux is garbage.
> you are free to disagree w/ that but you are most certainly
> not in a position to police his opinion.

I have not commented upon anyone else's opinion.  I have been talking 
about what I do and what I recommend others do.


-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From mickey  Fri Jun 17 16:19:48 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2FB71.13791.8F1A913@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17, 
	2005 04:33:53 pm"
Message-ID: <200506172019.j5HKJnlx032082@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:04, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> 
> > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> 
> > > Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> > > one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
> > > That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
> > > that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
> > > very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
> > > project.
> > 
> > the question was not for presenting openbsd in the best possible
> > light but rather for one particular dude's opinion on linux.
> > so his opinion seems to be -- linux is garbage.
> > you are free to disagree w/ that but you are most certainly
> > not in a position to police his opinion.
> 
> I have not commented upon anyone else's opinion.  I have been talking 
> about what I do and what I recommend others do.

and what is this:

> > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > regarding other OS.

one dude has expressed his opinion and here is another dude
who is expressing his opinion about another dude's opinion.

can you handle the truth at all?

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From dan  Fri Jun 17 16:43:08 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:43:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <200506172019.j5HKJnlx032082@lucifier.net>
References: <42B2FB71.13791.8F1A913@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17,
	2005 04:33:53 pm"
Message-ID: <42B2FD9C.2623.8FA20DC@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:19, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:04, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > 
> > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > 
> > > > Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> > > > one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
> > > > That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
> > > > that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
> > > > very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
> > > > project.
> > > 
> > > the question was not for presenting openbsd in the best possible
> > > light but rather for one particular dude's opinion on linux.
> > > so his opinion seems to be -- linux is garbage.
> > > you are free to disagree w/ that but you are most certainly
> > > not in a position to police his opinion.
> > 
> > I have not commented upon anyone else's opinion.  I have been talking 
> > about what I do and what I recommend others do.
> 
> and what is this:
> 
> > > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > > regarding other OS.
> 
> one dude has expressed his opinion and here is another dude
> who is expressing his opinion about another dude's opinion.

I did not say that.

> can you handle the truth at all?

Can you correctly parse an email?
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From mickey  Fri Jun 17 16:36:50 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:36:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <42B2FD9C.2623.8FA20DC@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17,
	2005 04:43:08 pm"
Message-ID: <200506172036.j5HKaoNl012890@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:19, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> 
> > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > > On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:04, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > > 
> > > > > Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> > > > > one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
> > > > > That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
> > > > > that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
> > > > > very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
> > > > > project.
> > > > 
> > > > the question was not for presenting openbsd in the best possible
> > > > light but rather for one particular dude's opinion on linux.
> > > > so his opinion seems to be -- linux is garbage.
> > > > you are free to disagree w/ that but you are most certainly
> > > > not in a position to police his opinion.
> > > 
> > > I have not commented upon anyone else's opinion.  I have been talking 
> > > about what I do and what I recommend others do.
> > 
> > and what is this:
> > 
> > > > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > > > regarding other OS.
> > 
> > one dude has expressed his opinion and here is another dude
> > who is expressing his opinion about another dude's opinion.
> 
> I did not say that.

i guess so. you advocating for it though (:

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From lists  Sat Jun 18 08:44:00 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:44:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <20050618084400.75c49e1d@genoverly.com>

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:31:47 -0700
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, June 17


================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
June 17, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Assembling Panoramic Photos: A Designer's Notebook
-Ending Spam
-Toad Pocket Reference for Oracle, 2nd Edition
-Mac OS X Tiger for Unix Geeks
-Firefox Secrets
-Ship It!
-eBay Hacks, 2nd Edition
-Digital Video Hacks
-Essential Mac OS X Panther Server Administration
-.NET Gotchas
-MAKE Subscriptions Available
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-O'Reilly at JavaOne, San Francisco, CA--June 27-30
-James Avery at the Dayton .NET Developers Group, 
 Fairborn, OH--July 25, 2005
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Early Registration Ending Soon for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, 
 Portland, OR--August 1-5
-Last Chance for Where 2.0 Conference, 
 San Francisco, CA--June 29-30
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Historical Maps Online
-Creating a Textbook My Way: An Interview with Charles Anderson
-Wire Frame Your Site
-Live Backups of MySQL Using Replication
-Ajax on Rails
-Top Ten Data Crunching Tips and Tricks
-What's New In PHP 5.1
-An Introduction to Tiger Terminal, Part 2
-Ten PowerPoint 2004 Tips to Beat Tight Deadlines
-It's True! Jobs Switches to Intel: A Review of the WWDC 05 Keynote
-Using Tabbed Browsing in Internet Explorer 6
-Using Microsoft's Malicious Software Removal Tool
-Porting a Project from Visual Studio .NET to Mono
-How to Talk About Jini, J2EE, and Web Services at a Cocktail Party
-Exploring Laszlo Classes, Attributes, and Events
-Adam Williams: Massive Guitars, Micro Computers
-Bring Your MIDI Music to Life
-MAKE's Rebellious Credo: Void the Warranty!
-MAKE: Blog
================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html

Don't forget, you can receive 20% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, 
Paraglyph, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, or Syngress book you 
purchase directly from O'Reilly.
Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938.
http://www.oreilly.com/

***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at 
least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer 
applies to U.S. delivery addresses in the 50 states and Puerto Rico.
For more details, go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases
----------------------------------------------------------------
***Assembling Panoramic Photos: A Designer's Notebook
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009755
Reflecting the very best of French photography, graphic design, and
digital artistry, this book is dazzling in concept and design. Part art
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***Ending Spam
Publisher: No Starch
ISBN: 1593270526
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being used by next generation spam filters to identify and filter spam.
Readers gain a complete understanding of the mathematical approaches used
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the benefits of using open-source solutions to end spam.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270526/


***Toad Pocket Reference for Oracle, 2nd Edition
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ISBN: 0596009712
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***Mac OS X Tiger for Unix Geeks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009127
This is the book for Mac command-line fans. Completely revised and updated
to cover Mac OS X Tiger, this invaluable resource helps you quickly and
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Chapter 2, "Searching and Metadata," is available online:
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***Firefox Secrets
Publisher: SitePoint
ISBN: 0975240242
"Firefox Secrets" is a guide to getting the most from the Mozilla Firefox
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***Ship It!
Publisher: Pragmatic
ISBN: 0974514047
Aimed at beginning to intermediate programmers, this book provides a
wealth of practical advice on how to ensure successful software projects.
It begins by introducing the common technical infrastructure that every
project needs, letting readers choose from a variety of recommended
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http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0974514047/


***eBay Hacks, 2nd Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0-596-10068-X
This second edition has been completely revised and updated with 30 brand
new hacks, plus tons of expanded, deepened, or otherwise completely
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Sample Hack 87, "Sell and Ship Internationally," is available online
(along with six others):
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***Digital Video Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009461
>From acquiring footage, mixing, editing, and adding effects to final
distribution, this book provides unique tips, tools, and techniques for
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***Essential Mac OS X Panther Server Administration
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ISBN: 0596006357
If you've ever wondered how to safely manipulate Mac OS X Panther Server's
many underlying configuration files, this book's for you. Full of
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http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/macxserver/


***.NET Gotchas
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009097
The ultimate guide for pain-free coding, this book tackles 75 common .NET
programming pitfalls, steering you away from application performance
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discussions, and guidelines for avoiding them. It's the ideal resource for
.NET developers yearning for a more productive, stress-free existence.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/netgotchas/


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***James Avery at the Dayton .NET Developers Group, 
 Fairborn, OH--July 25, 2005	
Author James Avery ("Visual Studio Hacks") discusses getting the most out
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"Pimp your IDE." James is the founder of the Cincinnati .NET Users Group
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================================================
Conference News
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***Early Registration Ending Soon for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention,
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User Group members who register before June 20, 2005 get a double
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================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***Historical Maps Online 
David Rumsey writes about his collection of more than 150,000 historical
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Conference, David will draw on his personal map collection, as well as his
work with geographic information systems, to discuss how information of
all kinds has been mapped and will be mapped in the future.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/06/02/davidrumsey.html


***Creating a Textbook My Way: An Interview with Charles Anderson
Charles Anderson is an assistant professor in the Division of Computer
Science at Western Oregon University, teaching mostly networking and
operating system courses. Being very particular about the materials
covered in his classes, he's had difficulty finding appropriate and timely
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while avoiding copyright fair use limitations and the time-consuming
process of gathering appropriate materials. Check out the SafariU homepage
for details and a demo.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/news/safariuanderson.html


***Wire Frame Your Site
Many elements of a site affect how successfuly it communicates with users.
Wire frames can untangle your site's layout from its graphical
communication, to help boost usability, logical content flow, and support
the creation of a compelling graphic design.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/wire-frame-your-site

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***Live Backups of MySQL Using Replication 
One of the difficulties with a large and active MySQL database is making
clean backups without having to bring the server down. A simple method to
ensure reliable backups is to set up replication for MySQL. Russell Dyer,
author of "MySQL in a Nutshell," walks through the process of using
replication for data backups.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/16/MySQLian.html


***Ajax on Rails 
XMLHttpRequest and Ruby on Rails are two hot topics in web development. As
you ought to expect by now, they work really well together. Curt Hibbs
explains the minimal Ajax you need to know and the minimal Ruby you need
to write to Ajax-ify your Rails applications.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/09/rails_ajax.html


***Top Ten Data Crunching Tips and Tricks 
Every day, programmers perform unglamorous but necessary data crunching:
recycling legacy data, checking configuration files, yanking data out of
web server logs, and more. Knowing how to crunch data with the least
amount of effort can make the difference between meeting a deadline and
making another pot of coffee. Greg Wilson, author of Pragmatic's "Data
Crunching," offers ten tips for crunch time.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/06/09/datacrunching.html


***What's New In PHP 5.1
Explore the new features and changes to the popular open-source web
development technology.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view.php?id=272086

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***An Introduction to Tiger Terminal, Part 2 
In this second tutorial on Tiger Terminal by MacinTech UG member Mary
Norbury-Glaser, you'll learn how to use the terminal app to look at
external volumes, then enable ssh to access files, scp to securely copy
them remotely, sftp for secure ftp, and finally how to use rsync to
synchronize files between two computers.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/06/14/terminal2.html


***Ten PowerPoint 2004 Tips to Beat Tight Deadlines 
PowerPoint 2004 lets you turn text, graphics, sounds, and movies into
dazzling presentations that get your message across in high style. But
what if you're on a short deadline? Franklin Tessler, author of "Office
2004 for Mac: The Missing Manual," shows you ten ways to use PowerPoint to
put together slideshows in no time.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/06/10/office04forMac.html


***It's True! Jobs Switches to Intel: A Review of the WWDC 05 Keynote 
Don't get too comfortable after making the transition to Mac OS X. Steve
Jobs decides to keep things interesting by announcing during his WWDC 05
keynote that Apple will switch to Intel processors. Here's what he said
and how he plans to make it happen.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/06/07/wwdc.html

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***Using Tabbed Browsing in Internet Explorer 6 
You don't need to wait for Internet Explorer 7 for tabbed browsing--with
the latest MSN Toolbar, you can use it in IE 6. Wei-Meng Lee shows you how
to use it.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/06/14/ie_tabs.html


***Using Microsoft's Malicious Software Removal Tool
The Microsoft Malicious Software Removal Tool can rid your PC of malware,
even if you're already protected by antivirus software. Mitch Tulloch
shows you the ins and outs of how to use it. Mitch is the author of
"Windows Server Hacks."
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/06/01/malware_removal.html


***Porting a Project from Visual Studio .NET to Mono 
Three years ago, when .NET was still in pre-release status, Kevin Farnham
developed a C# application to automatically generate stock market web
pages. Recently, he ported the project to Mono and Debian Linux. Follow
along to see how the port went.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/06/13/vs2mono.html

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***How to Talk About Jini, J2EE, and Web Services at a Cocktail Party 
Heard about distributed technologies for Java, but not sure what they are
or why they're important? Kathy Sierra and Bert Bates, authors of "Head
First Java, 2nd Edition," present this cocktail-party overview. Hold your
own in conversation with Java geeks.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/08/27/cocktails.html


***Exploring Laszlo Classes, Attributes, and Events 
Laszlo offers an interesting option for rich client-side GUIs--XML markup
of widgets and their event handling, which is then converted into a Flash
executable that is run with the Flash plugin in the user's browser. Satya
Komatineni introduces Laszlo and shows how to get started writing web
applications with it.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/06/15/laszlo.html

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***Adam Williams: Massive Guitars, Micro Computers
The former Powerman 5000 guitarist reveals how to make huge guitar sounds
on a home computer--without waking the neighbors--then shares loads of MP3
examples.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/06/15/williams.html


***Bring Your MIDI Music to Life
Jim Aikin shares numerous tips on getting the best musical expression out
of them--both through playing technique and crafty computer editing.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/06/08/controller2.html

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***MAKE's Rebellious Credo: Void the Warranty! 
"New York Times" columnist Lawrence Downes recently touted the virtues of
O'Reilly's new MAKE magazine. Downes salutes MAKE's renegade DIY spirit,
noting, "In this world, to tinker--to open the case, to fiddle with wires,
and see what happens--is to rebel." Are you ready to rebel? (Free
registration required)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/opinion/12sun3.html?


***MAKE: Blog
Phillip Torrone kicks the tires on the iPod photo connector. The iPod
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of the Belkin media reader, too. 
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/06/ipod_photo_conn.html


***For more information on MAKE, go to:
http://www.makezine.com/


================================================
>From Your Peers
===============================================
***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user groups
around the globe are up to:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi

Until next time--
-- 



From dan  Sat Jun 18 08:51:20 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:51:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Forbes Magazine on Linux and the BSDs. . .
In-Reply-To: <200506172036.j5HKaoNl012890@lucifier.net>
References: <42B2FD9C.2623.8FA20DC@localhost> from Dan Langille at "Jun 17,
	2005 04:43:08 pm"
Message-ID: <42B3E088.20853.C708907@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:36, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:19, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > 
> > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > > > On 17 Jun 2005 at 16:04, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Dan Langille:
> > > > 
> > > > > > Let's use FreeBSD as something I advocate  In my strategy, and the 
> > > > > > one I encourage in others, is to show why what I like about FreeBSD.  
> > > > > > That should be sufficient.  If that isn't enough to convince people 
> > > > > > that FreeBSD is an excellent choice, then I haven't done my advocacy 
> > > > > > very well.  I can do that entirely without bad-mouthing another 
> > > > > > project.
> > > > > 
> > > > > the question was not for presenting openbsd in the best possible
> > > > > light but rather for one particular dude's opinion on linux.
> > > > > so his opinion seems to be -- linux is garbage.
> > > > > you are free to disagree w/ that but you are most certainly
> > > > > not in a position to police his opinion.
> > > > 
> > > > I have not commented upon anyone else's opinion.  I have been talking 
> > > > about what I do and what I recommend others do.
> > > 
> > > and what is this:
> > > 
> > > > > > I'm not so sure if this is really such great publicity.  In my
> > > > > > experience, people who do not already know (in some detail) about BSD
> > > > > > are easily turned off by overly aggressive and deragotive remarks
> > > > > > regarding other OS.
> > > 
> > > one dude has expressed his opinion and here is another dude
> > > who is expressing his opinion about another dude's opinion.
> > 
> > I did not say that.
> 
> i guess so. 

Nice you got something right in this message.

> you advocating for it though (:

I see you are still not parsing the email correctly.  Until you can, 
I will no longer participate.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From ike  Sun Jun 19 18:23:48 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:23:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris order
In-Reply-To: <20050618195330.GE1036@ixeon.local>
References: <45e3deb43206be90773b9c0337779350@lesmuug.org>
	<20050618195330.GE1036@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <c0e453dc090dda8f38ab9a1bc43a7917@lesmuug.org>

Wordup GG, All,

Any other takers?  If we get a few more people it'll be worth bundling 
the order...

Rocket-
.ike



On Jun 18, 2005, at 3:53 PM, George Georgalis wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 02:37:18PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Anyone saving up to do a soekris order?  I'm grabbing a net4801 with
>> case late next week for a client- just thought I'd shout out to see if
>> anyone wants to piggy-back the order...
>
>
> I'll get one each of the following:
>
> 15141100  	vpn1411, for Mini-PCI sockets
> 10480151  	net4801-50 Board and Case
> 31311212  	Power Supply, 12V, 1.25A, unregulated, US/Canada 110V, mini 
> switch mode, for all boards.
>
> // George
>
>
> -- 
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
>




From spork  Sun Jun 19 18:36:26 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:36:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] jails and shared filesystems
In-Reply-To: <24caabc226dbe97f75f6b77afacd3ff9@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506150233160.355@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<24caabc226dbe97f75f6b77afacd3ff9@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506191814000.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hi Charles, All,
>
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>> 
>> I'm hoping some of our resident jail experts can help out with this 
>> issue...
>> 
>> I've been playing around with 5.4 and jails for some time now, and for the 
>> most part everything is really nice; the addition of jail configs to 
>> rc.conf is excellent.
>
> Dude- can you elaborate on this one, (sorry for the tangent here)?
>
> I've not had/made time to dive into the boot/rc configs for jailing, as I've 
> always avoided starting jails on boot like the plague based on problems 
> experienced long ago during the height of the 4.x era...
>
> - How do you like the rc.conf stuff for setting up jails?

Well, not having used 4.x jails, or any jails for that matter, I like it 
very much.  I posted the summary a few weeks(?) ago: 
http://lists.nycbug.org/pipermail/talk/2005-May/005569.html

>From what I've read about the 4.x stuff, this trumps it.

> - What facility, if any, is available to mitigate all the nasty problems 
> which can raise their head when a single jail barfs during system boot?

Again, not much experience there, but I have broken some test jails and 
running the /etc/rc.d/jail jailX stop|start did not hang, it just spit out 
an error and that was that.

> - Is there anything in the rc system that helps the system deal with the fact 
> it could be trying to simultaneously start up *many* different daemon apps, 
> (simultaneously!) while each jail starts?

Probably not, and I'm still not familiar enough with rcNG to really know 
where in the boot process the jail startup happens.

> - Any comments on all the buttons/knobs/bells/whistles which are noteworthy?

That link above pretty much covers all the cool stuff I found. :)

> Thx. for any comments here, (from anyone actually!), Charles, back to your 
> question,
>
>> 
>> Here's my problem/question:
>> 
>> I will only be running maybe 4 or 5 jails on this box.  Two or more of 
>> these jails may need to share some files.  To add to the confusion, these 
>> two or three jails are somewhat unpredictable in their growth.  I've got 
>> about 270GB to work with.  While testing things, I just took that whole 
>> partition and called it "/jails" and then made "/jails/jail1", 
>> "/jails/jail2", etc.  Technically, that works.
>
> Solid plan actually,

OK, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this, other than issues of 
disk-fillage, which I honestly do not think will be an issue in my 
application, are there any advantages in trying to partition things up?

>> But backing up and restoring one giant partition kind of makes me think 
>> twice about this.
>
> Yep.  What about breaking it up by userland disk contents, instead of the 
> whole disk being backed up?  I've actually come to love an aspect of 
> FreeBSD's relative userland consistency, i.e. one can back up /usr and /etc 
> from a jail be in really great shape in most restore/upgrade contexts...

Hmmm, good idea, why back up each jail beyond config and data?  Both 
Amanda and Flexbackup can deal with methods other than dump, so that kind 
of takes care of that issue.

>> What other options might I have?
>
> I have no word yet on nullfs being fixed (anyone? anyone?)- as of BSDCan it 
> was still widely known to be broken and in need of a maintainer.  I'm not 
> sure if this situation has changed.  DevFS, similar problems...

No idea, and it seems nullfs still has performance issues as well.

> --
> As another tangent (on my brain recently), you could locally mount remote raw 
> disk partitions using Geom Gate - (it's been committed to FreeBSD source 
> since 5.4, I believe, and I've been futzing with it in the BKNY lab...).
>
> 2003 initial Release:
> http://kerneltrap.org/node/1003
>
> 2004 Commited to FreeBSD:
> http://kerneltrap.org/news/freebsd?from=20
>
> ggated(8), ggatec(8), ggatel(8) are the utilities to use Geom Gate.
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi? 
> query=ggated&sektion=8&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+5.4-RELEASE

Hmmmm...

> Anyhow, just thought I'd throw this in, as you could mount remote disk 
> partitions with what seems to be something *way* faster and more bulletproof 
> than nfs- just by throwing some copper gig-e nics and crossover cables at the 
> problem...

I think I'll play around with ggate this week then.  It can't be worse 
than NFS.

>> I was thinking of grabbing 10-20GB and making that "/jails" and letting 
>> that be where my base system for each jail is installed.  This would also 
>> be "flat" and would hold any additional software.  I was then going to take 
>> the remaining space, and have each jail "mount" that, but apparently that's 
>> not really possible.
>
> Well, the jails themselves can't mount mount the volumes, but you could mount 
> them from the host server- just by making the mountpoint exist in the jail 
> directory trees.

Apparently, they can, I don't know if this is something new, but it's in 
the 5.x rc.d/jail script, and uses an /etc/fstab.jailname file to set up 
the mounts.  I assume this is really just an automated/jail-specific way 
of doing what you mention above.  But without resorting to 
nullfs/nfs/ggate trickery you can't have the mount appear in more than one 
jail.

> I mean it sounds like you've got a case for getting down with filesystem 
> quotas, imposed from the host system, on a big flat slice...  (Feels sanest 
> to me in this case).

Yeah, have to try that again.  Adding/deleting partitions in 5.x is pretty 
tough now.  It took me hours to find the geom debug flag to set to allow 
disklabel to work on a disk that has mounted partitions.  No manpage info, 
nothing, just have to Google until you find the thread where everyone 
yells at PHK about it.  I even managed to panic the machine in the 
process.

>> Any ideas?  I'm thinking just making one giant partition is what I'll end 
>> up doing, but I wanted to run this by folks first.
>
> From what I'm hearing in your post, I personally believe one giant partition, 
> and perhaps some disk quota use, is indeed sanest.  If your going for 
> disaster-recovery for the jails, the quickest/simplest strategy involves 
> making 4 tarballs:
>
> 1) a 'base' jail system tarball, the same thing for each jail, which can be 
> rolled-out very quickly to make a new jail (on different hardware box even if 
> necessary)
>
> 2) a 'base' config tarball, perhaps /etc/rc.conf and /etc.resolv.conf
>
> 3) /usr/*stuff* from each jailed system
>
> 4) start scripts and misc. for the jails
>
>> ps - next up, quotas!  that looks fun...
>
> Heh- here we go...  Anyone have any *serious* quota experience to share?  (my 
> experience has been that when employed, quotas simply work as the man page 
> says... transparently, nothin' to write home about...  Any of the 
> Good-bad-Ugly out there with regard to quotas?)

It's pretty messy, is what I'm seeing at first glance.  You have to have 
all your jailed users in the host's passwd db to make things work in a 
sane manner.  But I've just barely started reading about that.

Thanks,

Charles

> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>



From george  Mon Jun 20 13:09:38 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:09:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
Message-ID: <42B6F852.9030009@sddi.net>

Interesting read. . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8280452/

I myself have been through the glares of the pre-dot com age from upper 
management ("ew, one of *those* weirdos"), through the 'glories' of the 
late 1990's, to the mixed picture of today, which I think is overall 
better a better picture for technology people than many in the press are 
portraying.

Do others think there is longeivity in technology?  Is anyone taking on 
of those $99 bartender training courses to prepare for the worst? 
(although certainly automation and outsourcing have put bartenders in 
their sights. . .)

George



From mickey  Mon Jun 20 12:59:00 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:59:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <42B6F852.9030009@sddi.net> from "George R." at "Jun 20,
	2005 01:09:38 pm"
Message-ID: <200506201659.j5KGx0VK009122@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from George R.:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Interesting read. . .
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8280452/
> 
> I myself have been through the glares of the pre-dot com age from upper 
> management ("ew, one of *those* weirdos"), through the 'glories' of the 
> late 1990's, to the mixed picture of today, which I think is overall 
> better a better picture for technology people than many in the press are 
> portraying.

yeah but then they talk about java and c++...
is that really the way of the future?

> Do others think there is longeivity in technology?  Is anyone taking on 
> of those $99 bartender training courses to prepare for the worst? 
> (although certainly automation and outsourcing have put bartenders in 
> their sights. . .)

did you mention bartender courses just because his name is mo ? (:

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From george  Mon Jun 20 13:20:22 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:20:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <200506201659.j5KGx0VK009122@lucifier.net>
References: <200506201659.j5KGx0VK009122@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <42B6FAD6.1050502@sddi.net>

Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from George R.:
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> 
>>Interesting read. . .
>>
>>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8280452/
>>
>>I myself have been through the glares of the pre-dot com age from upper 
>>management ("ew, one of *those* weirdos"), through the 'glories' of the 
>>late 1990's, to the mixed picture of today, which I think is overall 
>>better a better picture for technology people than many in the press are 
>>portraying.
> 
> 
> yeah but then they talk about java and c++...
> is that really the way of the future?

maybe not the future, but there's certainly more advertised jobs out 
there for c++ and java versus for C. . . unless you consider volunteer 
efforts.  ;-'

> 
> 
>>Do others think there is longeivity in technology?  Is anyone taking on 
>>of those $99 bartender training courses to prepare for the worst? 
>>(although certainly automation and outsourcing have put bartenders in 
>>their sights. . .)
> 
> 
> did you mention bartender courses just because his name is mo ? (:

that's what i meant by outsourcing bartender jobs. . . all seem to be 
going to mo. . . and i'm not on his good side this month.

g



From okan  Mon Jun 20 14:02:54 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:02:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <42B6F852.9030009@sddi.net>
References: <42B6F852.9030009@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050620180254.GA12047@yinaska.pair.com>

On Mon 2005.06.20 at 13:09 -0400, George Rosamond wrote:
> Interesting read. . .
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8280452/
> 
> I myself have been through the glares of the pre-dot com age from upper 
> management ("ew, one of *those* weirdos"), through the 'glories' of the 
> late 1990's, to the mixed picture of today, which I think is overall 
> better a better picture for technology people than many in the press are 
> portraying.

well, the truth is that the demand for *quality* is going down. if the
technology comes from overseas or not, what matters is the bottom line,
and as long as there is *an impression" that things are working well,
then that is all the buisness cares about. sad.

yes, it is a sad state of affairs when only c++ and java seem to be the
only requirements. heck, even then, when was the last time you saw
*quality* code written in those languages???

> Do others think there is longeivity in technology?  Is anyone taking on 
> of those $99 bartender training courses to prepare for the worst? 
> (although certainly automation and outsourcing have put bartenders in 
> their sights. . .)

as long as technology breaks, and it does in massive ways today, we will
all have jobs. we have many large entities to thank for that.

okan




From mickey  Mon Jun 20 15:10:40 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:10:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <42B6FAD6.1050502@sddi.net> from "George R." at "Jun 20,
	2005 01:20:22 pm"
Message-ID: <200506201910.j5KJAe4t025582@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from George R.:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> > Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from George R.:
> > [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > 
> >>Interesting read. . .
> >>
> >>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8280452/
> >>
> >>I myself have been through the glares of the pre-dot com age from upper 
> >>management ("ew, one of *those* weirdos"), through the 'glories' of the 
> >>late 1990's, to the mixed picture of today, which I think is overall 
> >>better a better picture for technology people than many in the press are 
> >>portraying.
> > 
> > 
> > yeah but then they talk about java and c++...
> > is that really the way of the future?
> 
> maybe not the future, but there's certainly more advertised jobs out 
> there for c++ and java versus for C. . . unless you consider volunteer 
> efforts.  ;-'

i have an impression that poor quality is exactly the problem.
people come to new jobs they see all the horrible code and they
can only tolerate that for say a year then they leave and that
keeps a lot of jobs open all the time and creates the impression
of market dominance...

> >>Do others think there is longeivity in technology?  Is anyone taking on 
> >>of those $99 bartender training courses to prepare for the worst? 
> >>(although certainly automation and outsourcing have put bartenders in 
> >>their sights. . .)
> > 
> > 
> > did you mention bartender courses just because his name is mo ? (:
> 
> that's what i meant by outsourcing bartender jobs. . . all seem to be 
> going to mo. . . and i'm not on his good side this month.

but outsourcing bartender jobs is good then -- only have to make your
way to the bar and there -- have a beer (:

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From g  Mon Jun 20 16:13:45 2005
From: g (Gordon Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:13:45 -0400
Subject: FW: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
Message-ID: <0IIE006SDG98WA90@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

> people come to new jobs they see all the horrible code and they
> can only tolerate that for say a year then they leave and that
> keeps a lot of jobs open all the time and creates the impression
> of market dominance...

True. In times of high turnover, quality suffers. 

There's also the other side of the coin - what about the people who are
responsible for the lack of quality?  A lot of mediocre people tried to jump
onto the "gravy train" when technologists were being paid more.  They need
to be weeded out, and that's a big part of what has been happening in the
technology workforce since Y2K.  The sad truth is that good and talented
people have suffered as well as the charlatans. 

Cheers,
Gordon

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From mickey  Mon Jun 20 15:57:44 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:57:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FW: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <0IIE006SDG98WA90@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> from Gordon Smith at
	"Jun 20, 2005 04:13:45 pm"
Message-ID: <200506201957.j5KJvioe023664@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Gordon Smith:
> > people come to new jobs they see all the horrible code and they
> > can only tolerate that for say a year then they leave and that
> > keeps a lot of jobs open all the time and creates the impression
> > of market dominance...
> 
> True. In times of high turnover, quality suffers. 
> 
> There's also the other side of the coin - what about the people who are
> responsible for the lack of quality?  A lot of mediocre people tried to jump
> onto the "gravy train" when technologists were being paid more.  They need
> to be weeded out, and that's a big part of what has been happening in the
> technology workforce since Y2K.  The sad truth is that good and talented
> people have suffered as well as the charlatans. 

so the industry needs it simply begs for cleansing.
let's start by burning some java books!

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From alex  Mon Jun 20 16:16:55 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:16:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FW: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <0IIE006SDG98WA90@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506201615420.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Gordon Smith wrote:

> True. In times of high turnover, quality suffers.
> 
> There's also the other side of the coin - what about the people who are
> responsible for the lack of quality?  A lot of mediocre people tried to
> jump onto the "gravy train" when technologists were being paid more.  
> They need to be weeded out, and that's a big part of what has been
> happening in the technology workforce since Y2K.  The sad truth is that
> good and talented people have suffered as well as the charlatans.
I don't think so. All my clued friends haven't been out of a job for more 
than two weeks in last 5 years.

IMHO, people who were weeded out are ones that shouldn't have been in this 
industry in the first place.

-alex




From aron  Mon Jun 20 16:42:32 2005
From: aron (Aron Roberts)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:42:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
Message-ID: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>

I often forget how spoiled I was living in places like Seattle and  
San Francisco.

I am now living in my second Brooklyn apartment with limited  
services. In this case it seems that neither DSL or Cable can be  
delivered to my residence. I am waiting on hearing back from Verizon  
to see if maybe they were lying to Covad on my Speakeasy order.   
However I tried Cablevision and they said they could not deliver  
anything to my block and could not tell me why.

At this point, I am curious to know if anyone has advice on wireless  
ISPs.


and no RFC 1149 is not an option :)



From george  Mon Jun 20 16:45:06 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:45:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <42B72AD2.1050008@sddi.net>

Aron Roberts wrote:
> I often forget how spoiled I was living in places like Seattle and  San 
> Francisco.
> 
> I am now living in my second Brooklyn apartment with limited  services. 
> In this case it seems that neither DSL or Cable can be  delivered to my 
> residence. I am waiting on hearing back from Verizon  to see if maybe 
> they were lying to Covad on my Speakeasy order.   However I tried 
> Cablevision and they said they could not deliver  anything to my block 
> and could not tell me why.

ahh, you have the shoot-outs too?

;-)

Verizon often lies to the ISPs when it comes to DSL.  They rejected 
EarthLink's request, then the next day I got a sales call from them.

Good luck. . .

g




From nycbug  Mon Jun 20 16:53:02 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:53:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <42B72AD2.1050008@sddi.net>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B72AD2.1050008@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050620205302.GB27010@syntax.cyth.net>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 04:45:06PM -0400, George R. wrote:
> Verizon often lies to the ISPs when it comes to DSL.  They rejected 
> EarthLink's request, then the next day I got a sales call from them.

What do you expect, their spokesperson is the voice of Darth Vader:
``I am altering the deal.  Pray I don't alter it any further.''

-Ray-



From okan  Mon Jun 20 18:59:58 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:59:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <20050620225958.GA85479@yinaska.pair.com>

On Mon 2005.06.20 at 16:42 -0400, Aron Roberts wrote:
> I often forget how spoiled I was living in places like Seattle and  
> San Francisco.
> 
> I am now living in my second Brooklyn apartment with limited  
> services. In this case it seems that neither DSL or Cable can be  
> delivered to my residence. I am waiting on hearing back from Verizon  
> to see if maybe they were lying to Covad on my Speakeasy order.   
> However I tried Cablevision and they said they could not deliver  
> anything to my block and could not tell me why.
> 
> At this point, I am curious to know if anyone has advice on wireless  
> ISPs.

evdo from verizon - i have an associate who uses it - $80/month -
"broadbad speeds". ...not advocating, just passing on info ;)

okan



From jhlists  Mon Jun 20 21:19:40 2005
From: jhlists (jh)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:19:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>

Aron Roberts wrote:

> > I am now living in my second Brooklyn apartment with limited  services. 
> In this case it seems that neither DSL or Cable can be  delivered to my 
> residence. I am waiting on hearing back from Verizon  to see if maybe 
> they were lying to Covad on my Speakeasy order.   However I tried 
> Cablevision and they said they could not deliver  anything to my block 
> and could not tell me why.
> 

First, Cablevision is the spawn of the devil. Avoid them if you can no
matter what you have to do.

I went through this roughly a year ago in Clinton Hill. No cable modems
from the spawn, and apparently, Verizon had run out of copper. So, they
were multiplexing lines using some half-assed digital technology (Alex
can explain this better than me - he was very helpful back then...)

The only solution? A dedicated line DSL connection from Covad for more
money per month than you'd want to know.

Of course, Verizon put in adequate copper some time after I signed the
usurious contract with Covad. Am now a happy Pilsoft customer.

Is you issue a distance or no-available-copper issue? It was suggested
to me that Verizon, by law, has to pull copper for things like burglar
alarm and medical emergency alarm systems. It was further suggested that
I insist on copper for this reason. Didn't get me anywhere, but I wasn't
all that insistent.

jh




From spork  Mon Jun 20 21:28:39 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:28:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Order Verizon (they'll magically find copper for you), cancel, order from 
DSL provider of your choice. :)

It's worked for a handful of our DSL customers...

If the OP wants more details, send me full address/phone info and I'll 
give you the full results of the covad lookup.

C

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, jh wrote:

> Aron Roberts wrote:
>
>> > I am now living in my second Brooklyn apartment with limited  services. 
>> In this case it seems that neither DSL or Cable can be  delivered to my 
>> residence. I am waiting on hearing back from Verizon  to see if maybe they 
>> were lying to Covad on my Speakeasy order.   However I tried Cablevision 
>> and they said they could not deliver  anything to my block and could not 
>> tell me why.
>> 
>
> First, Cablevision is the spawn of the devil. Avoid them if you can no
> matter what you have to do.
>
> I went through this roughly a year ago in Clinton Hill. No cable modems
> from the spawn, and apparently, Verizon had run out of copper. So, they
> were multiplexing lines using some half-assed digital technology (Alex
> can explain this better than me - he was very helpful back then...)
>
> The only solution? A dedicated line DSL connection from Covad for more
> money per month than you'd want to know.
>
> Of course, Verizon put in adequate copper some time after I signed the
> usurious contract with Covad. Am now a happy Pilsoft customer.
>
> Is you issue a distance or no-available-copper issue? It was suggested
> to me that Verizon, by law, has to pull copper for things like burglar
> alarm and medical emergency alarm systems. It was further suggested that
> I insist on copper for this reason. Didn't get me anywhere, but I wasn't
> all that insistent.
>
> jh
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Mon Jun 20 21:41:10 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:41:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
Message-ID: <20050621014110.GD5486@ixeon.local>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 09:19:40PM -0400, jh wrote:
>First, Cablevision is the spawn of the devil. Avoid them if you can no
>matter what you have to do.

Location is a *big* factor. Cablevision worked great for me for over 2
years, until I moved and they blocked port 25 at the new location -- I
switched to pilosoft.

>Is you issue a distance or no-available-copper issue? It was suggested
>to me that Verizon, by law, has to pull copper for things like burglar
>alarm and medical emergency alarm systems. It was further suggested that
>I insist on copper for this reason. Didn't get me anywhere, but I wasn't
>all that insistent.

yeah, that's what I heard in California, the PUC (national) requires
telco to provide a "dry pair" (one, more?) and patch at the co for free
or nominal cost; so in theory, you and your buddy (or alarm or medical
company) in the same local calling area can get a direct connect for
"signaling" (don't expect more than 23kbps this way). Personally I've
never heard of people getting this setup, but I guess alarm companies
know how to get it done... but maybe the telco has a way out if they
don't have any available pairs?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Mon Jun 20 21:47:38 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:47:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20050621014738.GE5486@ixeon.local>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 09:28:39PM -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>Order Verizon (they'll magically find copper for you), cancel, order from 
>DSL provider of your choice. :)

ha! slick.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From lists  Tue Jun 21 00:21:05 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:21:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <42B6F852.9030009@sddi.net>
References: <42B6F852.9030009@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050621001721.Y41627@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, George R. wrote:

> Do others think there is longeivity in technology?

Yes. Partly because all the outsorcing overseas has prompted less people 
into the career. On the long run there will be less people in IT.. and 
unless they keep importing workers.. there hopefully will be an increased 
demand for experience IT personel.

>  Is anyone taking on of 
> those $99 bartender training courses to prepare for the worst? (although 
> certainly automation and outsourcing have put bartenders in their sights. .

Not yet.. but may as well.
The one thing I always thought would be safe was healthcare.. till I 
watched a special in 60 minutes.. how people are going overseas for 
surgery.. paying 1/10th of the cost in US.



From lists  Tue Jun 21 00:22:55 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:22:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FW: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506201615420.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506201615420.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050621002122.S41627@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> I don't think so. All my clued friends haven't been out of a job for more
> than two weeks in last 5 years.

What industry?

> IMHO, people who were weeded out are ones that shouldn't have been in this
> industry in the first place.

Are you talking full time employees? contractors? Software/hardware?



From alex  Tue Jun 21 08:55:32 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:55:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FW: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <20050621002122.S41627@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506210854470.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> 
> > I don't think so. All my clued friends haven't been out of a job for
> > more than two weeks in last 5 years.
> 
> What industry?
Programmers/net admin/sys admin.
> 
> > IMHO, people who were weeded out are ones that shouldn't have been in
> > this industry in the first place.
> 
> Are you talking full time employees? contractors? Software/hardware?
Software. Either kind.

I am not familiar enough with hardware industry (its mostly on the west 
coast, anyway). 

-alex




From lists  Tue Jun 21 09:30:05 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:30:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FW: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506210854470.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506210854470.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050621092818.F48077@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

>> What industry?
> Programmers/net admin/sys admin.

Well I sure would like to hear from your friends how they got jobs so 
easily. :-)

My experience has been otherwise. I guess if one practices one of the 
"hot" techologies such as Java, C# it should not be difficult to find a 
job.



From ike  Tue Jun 21 14:59:00 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:59:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Python Command-Line Option Parser
Message-ID: <05ecb78d6f825e90b10f78151e266bcd@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Saw something in today's Daily Python-URL which I thought relevant to 
an ongoing discussion about using Python for general UNIX tasks, 
someone posted a nice "Generic command-line option parser" class.

Cool stuff, primarily, because it's aimed at solving the problems (and 
some libraries brokenness) of various command-line calling schemes in 
core Python.  Not certain that this code totally solves the problem, 
but from skimming it, it looks to be a great stab at trying to...


Generic command-line option parser
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/425345

"""
I have seen Python programmers having to write custom code when faced 
with the task of doing command line argument parsing. Some use optparse 
which limits your application to Python 2.3 +, some stick to getopt 
which makes sure that the program works with all versions of Python, 
but loses the power of optparse. Some uses neither and develops custom 
code.

This class resolves the dilemma, by providing a single mechanism which 
wraps up both optparse and getopt...
"""

Source code posted online, I'll be trying it myself this weekend...  
See yall' on IRC!

Rocket,
.ike




From steve.rieger  Tue Jun 21 17:31:40 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:31:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] smbfs
Message-ID: <42B8873C.9000104@tbwachiat.com>

hi all

inorder to mount smb shares do i need to install the full samba package 
or not

currently i do not and when i issues the mount_smbfs command i get
kldload Operation not permettied


this is on fbsd 5.4 stable


-- 
--
Steve Rieger
(212) 804-1131   (Work)
(646) 335-8915   (Cell)
chozrim           (aim)




From steve.rieger  Tue Jun 21 18:25:37 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:25:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] nfs question
Message-ID: <42B893E1.8070308@tbwachiat.com>

how would i go about putting a username and passwd into /etc/fstab when 
doing a nfs mount

i tried it with username=xxx,password=yyy but no go


-- 
--
Steve Rieger
(212) 804-1131   (Work)
(646) 335-8915   (Cell)
chozrim           (aim)




From jonathan  Tue Jun 21 18:59:18 2005
From: jonathan (Jonathan)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:59:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] smbfs
In-Reply-To: <42B8873C.9000104@tbwachiat.com>
References: <42B8873C.9000104@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <42B89BC6.1060801@kc8onw.net>

Steve Rieger wrote:
> hi all
> 
> inorder to mount smb shares do i need to install the full samba package 
> or not
> 
> currently i do not and when i issues the mount_smbfs command i get
> kldload Operation not permettied
> 
> 
> this is on fbsd 5.4 stable
> 
> 

It appears that smbfs relies on a kernel module [1] which is not 
currently loaded and when you try to create the mount it tries to 
autoload the module.  It probably did not work because you did not run 
the command as root.  You can either run the mount command as root 
(which if you don't have vfs.usermount set you probably have to do 
anyway) or you can kldload the modules by hand and then run the command.

For more on vfs.usermount see 
http://www.bsdguides.org/guides/freebsd/beginners/kde_cd_icons.php
(its not the exact same thing but still relevant in this case)

For more on kldload just do a `man kldload`

Jonathan

[1] Its probably either the 2nd or 3rd module listed, or maybe both
server% ls /boot/kernel | grep -i smb
iicsmb.ko*
smb.ko*
smbfs.ko*
smbios.ko*
smbus.ko*



From ike  Tue Jun 21 20:46:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:46:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <0IIE006SDG98WA90@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <0IIE006SDG98WA90@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <a4c0102a48a6b526ecedf4409f1688df@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

Interesting thread,

On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:13 PM, Gordon Smith wrote:

> > people come to new jobs they see all the horrible code and they
> > can only tolerate that for say a year then they leave and that
> > keeps a lot of jobs open all the time and creates the impression
> > of market dominance...
>
> True. In times of high turnover, quality suffers.

Furiously, yes.

>
> There's also the other side of the coin - what about the people who 
> are responsible for the lack of quality?? A lot of mediocre people 
> tried to jump onto the "gravy train" when technologists were being 
> paid more. ?They need to be weeded out, and that's a big part of what 
> has been happening in the technology workforce since Y2K. ?The sad 
> truth is that good and talented people have suffered as well as the 
> charlatans.

Actually, Gordon, while I agree with you that a *lot* of mediocre 
people jumped into the fray in the late 90's, (dot-com'ers mostly), but 
I wanted to state state that I've worked on salvaging software projects 
in the last 5 years that suffered not because of weak original 
developers, but from business process that leads to failing systems.


A couple of *bad* directives that often come from the business side:

- Code, Code, Code- don't take *any* time to design, plan, or document

- (conversely), over-Design ad-nauseum, documented like mad for Mgmt. 
and Investors
   (then slap something together last minute to fit into the reqs.)

- Cost/Corner cutting decisions coming from un-technical 
managers/directors
   - this is EXTREMELY common for developers to face, making software in 
directions
     they KNOW (and often warn) will fail, based on improper mgmt. cost 
cutting

- Disinformation from vendors, the 'Info-World' and 'CNet' syndrome, 
leading
   Managers/Decision Makers to push developers in insane (yet trendy) 
directions

- A generally not focusing on, (or even defining) the problems at hand,
   and solving them by whatever means necessary.

- Making Cheap patches to fix other cheap patches

--
With that, I'm just wanting to state that not *all* bad software comes 
from bad developers- and in the last 5 or so years, there's been a lot 
of really talented developers I know working on software I *know* they 
aren't proud of- because they needed the work, and someone with little 
know-how and zero long-term thinking directed their actions. (I sure 
have experienced this, but have had the luck of working on some solid 
projects too.)

This isn't to say that developers can't make bad software too, based on 
similar pitfalls, but just wanted to throw in my .02? that it's not 
always a developer's fault.  The economies and ecosystems that make a 
piece of software manifest are complex...

Best,
.ike




From ike  Tue Jun 21 20:48:50 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:48:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506201615420.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506201615420.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <2b68a77106051ba816a6d05433fe9221@lesmuug.org>

Hi Alex, All,

On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:16 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

>>   The sad truth is that
>> good and talented people have suffered as well as the charlatans.
> I don't think so. All my clued friends haven't been out of a job for 
> more
> than two weeks in last 5 years.

Your in a lucky position then Alex,

>
> IMHO, people who were weeded out are ones that shouldn't have been in 
> this
> industry in the first place.

With all due respect, the last years in NYC have been totally 
excruciating for a lot of talented people- in all sorts of contexts- I 
personally don't think that's a very cool attitude to take.

Quantitively, I believe your sentiment is wrong- I've seen extremely 
talented techs get the axe, while really brain-dead XYZ-certified 
people retain their jobs right next to them.

Subjectively, what about the young people who are trying to get more 
experience with UNIX/tech?  Who is to say who is and is not supposed to 
'be in this industry in the first place'?  You run a company, you hire 
who you want- you have your own business needs, that's your domain.  
However you can't possibly blanket the entire tech/net industry as 
though you understand all contexts, needs, and talents.
Just because I don't understand where someone is coming from doesn't 
mean they don't belong in the industry.

--
I'm not blindly saying everyone is on the same level here, but I am 
saying everyone is valuable- and I'd like to see more room for new 
people to come into the industry- bringing fresh views, solutions, 
input- less we all get stale, and dig our 'industry' a grave with 
ingrown ideas and culture.

Just my .02?

Rocket,
.ike


>
> -alex




From alex  Tue Jun 21 21:29:41 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:29:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <2b68a77106051ba816a6d05433fe9221@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506212127020.7545-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Quantitively, I believe your sentiment is wrong- I've seen extremely
> talented techs get the axe, while really brain-dead XYZ-certified people
> retain their jobs right next to them.
That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly quickly, 
and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.

> Subjectively, what about the young people who are trying to get more
> experience with UNIX/tech?  Who is to say who is and is not supposed to
> 'be in this industry in the first place'?  You run a company, you hire
> who you want- you have your own business needs, that's your domain.  
> However you can't possibly blanket the entire tech/net industry as
> though you understand all contexts, needs, and talents. Just because I
> don't understand where someone is coming from doesn't mean they don't
> belong in the industry.
I do. If someone went into computers just for money and doesn't have love
or understanding of technology, they don't belong in this industry.

There were way too many schools in 1995-1999 that would teach you 
powerbuilder/sybase/oracle/vb/etc in 3 weeks, give you phony experience 
and allow you to make 45k$ off the bat. Most of people who did that really 
don't belong in the industry, as they have absolutely no clue.

> I'm not blindly saying everyone is on the same level here, but I am
> saying everyone is valuable- and I'd like to see more room for new
> people to come into the industry- bringing fresh views, solutions,
> input- less we all get stale, and dig our 'industry' a grave with
> ingrown ideas and culture.
No, not everyone is valuable. Just ask Mickey! :)

-alex




From driodeiros  Wed Jun 22 02:06:36 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:06:36 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Next one please: Matthew Dillon from DragonFly
Message-ID: <20050622060636.GB28990@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

More opinions to the BSD vs Linux war. This time Matthew Dillon
from DragonFly:

http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/mailarchive/users/2005-06/msg00076.html




From aron  Wed Jun 22 12:01:35 2005
From: aron (Aron Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:01:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <88A5DD21-E7E8-41FE-8241-A869D74D636D@slam.cc>


This seems to be where I am at now. Copper has been magically found  
by very nice install dude that had nothing nice to say about  
verizon :) I'll wait until the verizon DSL is up for a month or so  
before switching to a new provider.



On Jun 20, 2005, at 9:28 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Order Verizon (they'll magically find copper for you), cancel,  
> order from DSL provider of your choice. :)
>
> It's worked for a handful of our DSL customers...
>
> If the OP wants more details, send me full address/phone info and  
> I'll give you the full results of the covad lookup.
>
> C
>
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, jh wrote:
>
>
>> Aron Roberts wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > I am now living in my second Brooklyn apartment with limited   
>>> services. In this case it seems that neither DSL or Cable can be   
>>> delivered to my residence. I am waiting on hearing back from  
>>> Verizon  to see if maybe they were lying to Covad on my Speakeasy  
>>> order.   However I tried Cablevision and they said they could not  
>>> deliver  anything to my block and could not tell me why.
>>>
>>
>> First, Cablevision is the spawn of the devil. Avoid them if you  
>> can no
>> matter what you have to do.
>>
>> I went through this roughly a year ago in Clinton Hill. No cable  
>> modems
>> from the spawn, and apparently, Verizon had run out of copper. So,  
>> they
>> were multiplexing lines using some half-assed digital technology  
>> (Alex
>> can explain this better than me - he was very helpful back then...)
>>
>> The only solution? A dedicated line DSL connection from Covad for  
>> more
>> money per month than you'd want to know.
>>
>> Of course, Verizon put in adequate copper some time after I signed  
>> the
>> usurious contract with Covad. Am now a happy Pilsoft customer.
>>
>> Is you issue a distance or no-available-copper issue? It was  
>> suggested
>> to me that Verizon, by law, has to pull copper for things like  
>> burglar
>> alarm and medical emergency alarm systems. It was further  
>> suggested that
>> I insist on copper for this reason. Didn't get me anywhere, but I  
>> wasn't
>> all that insistent.
>>
>> jh
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
>> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>




From mspitzer  Wed Jun 22 12:03:01 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:03:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506212127020.7545-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <2b68a77106051ba816a6d05433fe9221@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506212127020.7545-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30506220903141c5496@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/21/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> 
> > Quantitively, I believe your sentiment is wrong- I've seen extremely
> > talented techs get the axe, while really brain-dead XYZ-certified people
> > retain their jobs right next to them.
> That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly quickly,
> and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.
> 

If by that you mean people who had lots of connections out side of the
company they worked for then yes.  I was out of work for almost 2
years because all the people I knew professionally were working at my
old company and there was a hiring freeze there.  Now when I did the
monster/headhunter thing there were a lot of other qualified people
who were also out of work.  And I came in second or so on a lot of
jobs and there is no check assocated from the second guy/gal on the
list down.  And you tell me Alex am I good?

marc



From alex  Wed Jun 22 12:15:22 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:15:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506220903141c5496@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On 6/21/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> > 
> > > Quantitively, I believe your sentiment is wrong- I've seen extremely
> > > talented techs get the axe, while really brain-dead XYZ-certified
> > > people retain their jobs right next to them.
> > That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly
> > quickly, and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.
> > 
> 
> If by that you mean people who had lots of connections out side of the
> company they worked for then yes.  I was out of work for almost 2 years
> because all the people I knew professionally were working at my old
> company and there was a hiring freeze there.  Now when I did the
> monster/headhunter thing there were a lot of other qualified people who
> were also out of work.  And I came in second or so on a lot of jobs and
> there is no check assocated from the second guy/gal on the list down.  
> And you tell me Alex am I good?
I dunno mang. I don't know you that well. :)

I have a list of questions I like to ask on interviews from prospective 
employees, I should share it and you can see how well would you do.

Some of those questions are intentionally tricky. For some, nobody [with
few rare exceptions] knows the answer offhand, and I really evaluate
thought process how would someone try to solve it.

Network questions:

* How many fields in an IP header router will change while forwarding?
[ttl and crc]

* Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative dns 
server [cache growth/cache poisoning]

Unix admin questions:
* Solaris: how do you change fullduplexness of an interface? [ndd 
/dev/xxx]

* What's an inode? What happens if you run out of inodes? How do you 
prevent yourself from running out? 

* What's a sticky permissions bit? What if a directory is sticky?

* When would you use tar vs cpio? [silly question - but at least it would 
show someone knows what cpio is]

* You are trying to unmount filesystem, but it tells you 'busy'. How would 
you see what processes are using it? [fuser -m or lsof]

* You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original 
OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very 
os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]

I can write down the questions I usually ask C/C++ people too, if there's 
any interest.






From lists  Wed Jun 22 13:44:44 2005
From: lists (lists at natserv.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:44:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <a4c0102a48a6b526ecedf4409f1688df@lesmuug.org>
References: <0IIE006SDG98WA90@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
	<a4c0102a48a6b526ecedf4409f1688df@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050622134314.A60841@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> ..that suffered not because of weak original developers, but from 
> business process that leads to failing systems.

In particular if staff was cut and the remaining people were expected to 
do the same work.. Or worse if people were asked to do work they, 
themselves new they were not the best candidate, but their choice was to 
take on the task or walk.



From lists  Wed Jun 22 13:51:37 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:51:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <2b68a77106051ba816a6d05433fe9221@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506201615420.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<2b68a77106051ba816a6d05433fe9221@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050622134549.C60841@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> With all due respect, the last years in NYC have been totally excruciating 
> for a lot of talented people

Totally agree.
The other day was talking to a recruiter and he basically told me he had 
many more resumes than he had job. He basically was asking me if I know of 
anyone that needed workers. :-(

> Subjectively, what about the young people who are trying to get more 
> experience with UNIX/tech?  Who is to say who is and is not supposed to 'be 
> in this industry in the first place'?

In the job market I see two broad category of tech people. Those who 
want to work on what they think is "good technology"/"best of breed" and 
those that will learn what they believe is most markeatable. The sad thing 
about the second category is that they may likely be better at keeping 
jobs, even though they they are not technically the best people.

Although somewhat understandable most companies hire very narrowly. What 
do we need NOW.. never mind if this person will be able to adapt to 
changes in technology.. or if this person is actually a well rounded 
technical person.. we use ABC.. he/she knows ABC... let's hire him/her.




From lists  Wed Jun 22 13:56:49 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506212127020.7545-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506212127020.7545-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly quickly,
> and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.

Define "clued people".
Someone that rides whatever latest technology is "hot"?

I really don't know how it works on the networking/telco world, but in 
software development I don't think it's so clear cut.. Specially when you 
have LOTS many more people available than jobs.

Also someone's technical abilities have nothing to do with someone's 
ability to search for jobs. Heck I have met great tech people that were 
awfull at interviews.

> I do. If someone went into computers just for money and doesn't have love
> or understanding of technology, they don't belong in this industry.

Agree.

That still doesn't mean that people who love computers will have an easier 
time at finding a job than someone who is in just for the money.. If 
anything someone on it just for the money probably has better skills at 
getting the next job and learning technology for the sake of making 
money.. regardless of how good/bad the techology is.



From ike  Wed Jun 22 14:03:35 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:03:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <a6a89822722446c7e55530fcc716d59e@lesmuug.org>

Wordemup All,

On Jun 22, 2005, at 12:15 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>> On 6/21/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quantitively, I believe your sentiment is wrong- I've seen extremely
>>>> talented techs get the axe, while really brain-dead XYZ-certified
>>>> people retain their jobs right next to them.
>>> That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly
>>> quickly, and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.
>>>
>>
>> If by that you mean people who had lots of connections out side of the
>> company they worked for then yes.  I was out of work for almost 2 
>> years
>> because all the people I knew professionally were working at my old
>> company and there was a hiring freeze there.  Now when I did the
>> monster/headhunter thing there were a lot of other qualified people 
>> who
>> were also out of work.  And I came in second or so on a lot of jobs 
>> and
>> there is no check assocated from the second guy/gal on the list down.
>> And you tell me Alex am I good?
> I dunno mang. I don't know you that well. :)

I know Marc AOK, and I'd personally work with him anytime :)  (just as 
long as I had a gun around for myself to keep things fair, [it's a long 
story]).

>
> I have a list of questions I like to ask on interviews from prospective
> employees, I should share it and you can see how well would you do.
>
> Some of those questions are intentionally tricky. For some, nobody 
> [with
> few rare exceptions] knows the answer offhand, and I really evaluate
> thought process how would someone try to solve it.

Good to know.  I've been thrown a loop several times over the years by 
pop-quizzes I felt were pretty bizarre and obscure, but they really 
were just that- the folks on the other side really wanted to see how 
I'd handle the questions, and must not have expected me to know the 
exact answer to all of it- (seeing as I usually got about half of the 
questions wrong, but got the job/contract...)

>
> Network questions:
>
> * How many fields in an IP header router will change while forwarding?
> [ttl and crc]
>
> * Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative 
> dns
> server [cache growth/cache poisoning]
>
> Unix admin questions:
> * Solaris: how do you change fullduplexness of an interface? [ndd
> /dev/xxx]
>
> * What's an inode? What happens if you run out of inodes? How do you
> prevent yourself from running out?
>
> * What's a sticky permissions bit? What if a directory is sticky?
>
> * When would you use tar vs cpio? [silly question - but at least it 
> would
> show someone knows what cpio is]
>
> * You are trying to unmount filesystem, but it tells you 'busy'. How 
> would
> you see what processes are using it? [fuser -m or lsof]
>
> * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the 
> original
> OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? 
> [very
> os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]
>
> I can write down the questions I usually ask C/C++ people too, if 
> there's
> any interest.

Yeah!  I'm interested in the C/C++ questions!  This is really cool 
stuff to wrap one's head around- seeing as it seems to quickly cover a 
lot of important basics...

Thanks for posting these Alex- I hope you have different ones for next 
week, (when I'd guess about 40 NYC*BUG people start applying to 
Pilosoft ;)

Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Wed Jun 22 14:11:30 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:11:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050622135815.Q60841@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> I have a list of questions I like to ask on interviews from prospective
> employees, I should share it and you can see how well would you do.

I am not a "network professional", but I will bite. :-)
No cheating.. googling for the answers..
<roll up sleaves>

> * How many fields in an IP header router will change while forwarding?
> [ttl and crc]

Absolutely no clue. :-(

> * Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative dns
> server [cache growth/cache poisoning]

A guess. :-)
Redundancy, growth and to prevent against malicious activities.

> Unix admin questions:
> * Solaris: how do you change fullduplexness of an interface? [ndd
> /dev/xxx]

Solaris.. what's that? :-)
Not a Solaris person... (but I do know what it is .. at least) hehe.

> * What's an inode?

Finally.. One, I think, I know.
An Inode is how the operating system tracks files and their parts.
It uses a B-Tree data structure to track files. Because of it's B-tree 
data structure it can quickly find a file or all it's parts.

>What happens if you run out of inodes?

You can't create more files or expand files.

>How do you prevent yourself from running out?

If you are preparing a file system and you know you will have lots of 
files you can configure the parameters to newfs to have more inodes.

If you already have the filesystem you may need to copy the files and 
re-do the filesystem.
You could also use a mount point to move some of the files to a new 
partition.

You can also move all/some of the files to a different partition and use a 
symbolink link in the original location.

> * What's a sticky permissions bit?

It's an additional permission beyond read, write, execute which can be set 
on a file or a directory.

>What if a directory is sticky?

Only the owner of the file can edit the file.

> * When would you use tar vs cpio?

Tar is more portable.

> * You are trying to unmount filesystem, but it tells you 'busy'. How would
> you see what processes are using it? [fuser -m or lsof]

Don't know in Linux, but in FreeBSD lsof and fstat.

>
> * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original
> OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very
> os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]

Use the install CD to fix the boot block.

> I can write down the questions I usually ask C/C++ people too, if there's
> any interest.

:-)
Not a C/C++ developer..



From alex  Wed Jun 22 14:15:24 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:15:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> 
> > That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly
> > quickly, and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.
> 
> Define "clued people". Someone that rides whatever latest technology is
> "hot"?
Hell no. Someone who *understands* what they are doing. Not just passed 
the latest course, but understands what goes on underneath.

> I really don't know how it works on the networking/telco world, but in
> software development I don't think it's so clear cut.. Specially when
> you have LOTS many more people available than jobs.
I've spent 10 years consulting. It may not be clear-cut, but you can still 
tell a difference between someone who 'gets it' and who doesn't. If you 
can learn a new language by just working with it for a week, you get it. 
If you learn it by having your $job send you to class for two months, you 
don't. It *helps* to have some theoretical underpinning (having taken CS 
classes in school and picking up useful things from them), but it isn't 
strictly required.

If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The right
answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all about how
someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into operations,
and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment will happen first.  
It shows whether you know what expression is, what rvalue/lvalue is, what
the code is going to be *compiled* to, etc.

C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
difference between signed int/unsigned int, proper casting, why you
shouldn't use strcpy, why you shouldn't cast a pointer into an int. (Note:  
just merely knowing that you *shouldnt* doesn't give you any points on
this test, you need to know why). Those questions I consider 
'intermediate'. Certainly, if you don't know the answer, I consider that 
you "don't get it".

For database people, I have boatloads of questions, more theoretical, as 
it is very easy to write bad sql. As in, why do you use stored procedures, 
why should you try to do things in sql vs stored programming language 
(set-a-time vs row-at-a-time), proper schema design (3bnf), indexes and 
how they operate, how optimizer operates and how to help it pick the right 
path, why are sql statements compiled on the backend and pitfalls (cache 
of the execution path), proper use of permissions on tables/stored 
procedures, etc.

> Also someone's technical abilities have nothing to do with someone's
> ability to search for jobs. Heck I have met great tech people that were
> awfull at interviews.
Absolutely. I used to suck at the management interviews (you know, 
answering questions "so, tell me about yourself" and "what are your 
greatest weaknesses"). But fortunately, those questions have 'right 
answers' and once you learn the right answer, you'll breeze through the 
management interview. ;)





From lists  Wed Jun 22 14:16:09 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <a6a89822722446c7e55530fcc716d59e@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<a6a89822722446c7e55530fcc716d59e@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050622141248.E60841@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Thanks for posting these Alex- I hope you have different ones for next week,


Hehe.. we should make questions in different knowledge areas..
I could make one in general database concepts. :-)

I think some people spend so much time learning a particular database 
engine that they never pay attention to the general concepts.. so when 
they have to move to a new engine it's like if they had to relear n
everything...



From g  Wed Jun 22 14:24:17 2005
From: g (Gordon Smith)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:24:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506220903141c5496@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0III00DU40ITGV80@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

> > > Quantitively, I believe your sentiment is wrong- I've seen extremely
> > > talented techs get the axe, while really brain-dead XYZ-certified
people
> > > retain their jobs right next to them.
> > That happens. However, the clued people will get a new job fairly
quickly,
> > and XYZ-certified won't, if they get axed.
> 
> If by that you mean people who had lots of connections out side of the
> company they worked for then yes.  I was out of work for almost 2
> years because all the people I knew professionally were working at my
> old company and there was a hiring freeze there.  Now when I did the
> monster/headhunter thing there were a lot of other qualified people
> who were also out of work.  And I came in second or so on a lot of
> jobs and there is no check assocated from the second guy/gal on the
> list down.  And you tell me Alex am I good?

A few thoughts come to mind - IMHO:

1. While people are not fungible commodities, depending on the supply of
talent available at a given time, a number of people might be able to do a
given job with equivalent results.  As such, the person who came in second
has no reason to get down on themselves - especially because, toward the end
of the "competition" for a given position, the use of job selection metrics
often breaks down into a less rational process.  

2. Generalizations about technologies can be dangerous; generalizations
about technologists can be fatal and/or cruel.  As Twain said, "Every
generalization is dangerous, especially this one."  ;-)

3. As another saying goes, "You are what you measure" (not from Twain) and
I've observed that many managers look upon recruiting as drudgery that can
and should be reduced to formulae.  Those formulae are represented as a
scientific hiring method when they are often a rationalization for not
thinking more about the real nature of the position to be filled and the
ideal candidate for that position.  

4. A large part of any recruiting effort needs to include getting a sense of
the applicant's ability to work with the team that is already in place.
Applicants who are technically proficient may or may not play well with
others, and such people can even be intentionally destructive in their quest
to "show well" or to protect their jobs.  Hiring managers should think in
terms of building teams that build systems, not just building systems.
Staff who can't see fit to support the team shouldn't get on the team in the
first place.

5. It's sometimes difficult, but it's always good to maintain contacts and
relationships.

Gordon





From alex  Wed Jun 22 14:27:28 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:27:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <20050622135815.Q60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221416150.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Absolutely no clue. :-(
> 
> > * Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative
> > dns server [cache growth/cache poisoning]
> 
> A guess. :-) Redundancy, growth and to prevent against malicious
> activities.
Yes. Recursive name server will listen to replies from other servers and
cache them. Potentially, they can be bad, affecting 'authoritative'
records. Authoritative name server won't listen to anything, it will just 
serve the data it knows are correct. 

> > Unix admin questions: * Solaris: how do you change fullduplexness of
> > an interface? [ndd /dev/xxx]
> 
> Solaris.. what's that? :-) Not a Solaris person... (but I do know what
> it is .. at least) hehe.
Similar thing on linux - how do you do it? ifconfig gets half credit -
half the time it won't work through ifconfig, and you need to use ethtool.
Points to pointing out that ifconfig is deprecated. 

> > * What's an inode?
> 
> Finally.. One, I think, I know. An Inode is how the operating system
> tracks files and their parts. It uses a B-Tree data structure to track
> files. Because of it's B-tree data structure it can quickly find a file
> or all it's parts.
Actually, inodes don't have much to do with btrees. The specific
implementation may (now you are getting into ufs vs ext2 vs jfs etc).  
Inode just has a list of physical blocks associated with this file.

Now, you may be also thinking about indirect inodes - but that's separate
thing and also filesystem-dependent. (look up
http://www.princeton.edu/~psg/unix/solaris/troubleshoot/diskio.html )

> >What happens if you run out of inodes?
> 
> You can't create more files or expand files.
You can expand files, just not create new ones.

> >How do you prevent yourself from running out?
> 
> If you are preparing a file system and you know you will have lots of
> files you can configure the parameters to newfs to have more inodes.
> 
> If you already have the filesystem you may need to copy the files and
> re-do the filesystem. You could also use a mount point to move some of
> the files to a new partition.
Correct. Could get more points for noting that some filesystems don't use
static inodes and have infinite number available.
> 
> You can also move all/some of the files to a different partition and use a 
> symbolink link in the original location.
> 
> > * What's a sticky permissions bit?
> 
> It's an additional permission beyond read, write, execute which can be set 
> on a file or a directory.
> 
> >What if a directory is sticky?
> 
> Only the owner of the file can edit the file.
Incorrect, anyone can edit the file (if file's permissions allow it), only
owner can delete it (note the difference between permissions on the *file* 
and permissions on the *directory*)
> 
> > * When would you use tar vs cpio?
> 
> Tar is more portable.
Eh, dunno about that actually. The question is whether you know what cpio 
is. :)

> > * You are trying to unmount filesystem, but it tells you 'busy'. How would
> > you see what processes are using it? [fuser -m or lsof]
> 
> Don't know in Linux, but in FreeBSD lsof and fstat.
> 
> >
> > * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original
> > OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very
> > os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]
> 
> Use the install CD to fix the boot block.
on linux, root=/dev/zzz, on bsd boot -a. Fixing i'd prefer an answer
that'd say 'grubinstall' or lilo or installboot

> 
> > I can write down the questions I usually ask C/C++ people too, if
> > there's any interest.
> 
> :-) Not a C/C++ developer..




From driodeiros  Wed Jun 22 14:23:08 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 11:23:08 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <20050622135815.Q60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<20050622135815.Q60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050622182308.GA5258@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>


>I can write down the questions I usually ask C/C++ people too, if there's
>any interest.

Please, do it!



From george  Wed Jun 22 14:31:53 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:31:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <88A5DD21-E7E8-41FE-8241-A869D74D636D@slam.cc>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<88A5DD21-E7E8-41FE-8241-A869D74D636D@slam.cc>
Message-ID: <20050622183153.GC16354@ixeon.local>


On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:01:35PM -0400, Aron Roberts wrote:
>
>This seems to be where I am at now. Copper has been magically found  
>by very nice install dude that had nothing nice to say about  
>verizon :) I'll wait until the verizon DSL is up for a month or so  
>before switching to a new provider.
>
>

I was under the impression you didn't need to complete the verizon order?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From ike  Wed Jun 22 14:43:14 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:43:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <23314c46d02c149be0ecafb162ad5d7d@lesmuug.org>

Hey Alex, All,

On Jun 22, 2005, at 2:15 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
<snip>
> It *helps* to have some theoretical underpinning (having taken CS
> classes in school and picking up useful things from them), but it isn't
> strictly required.
<snip>
> C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
> them, you'll fail my interview.

Just thinking out loud here, and perhaps a bit off-topic, but Alex- I 
think your C/C++ knowledge would make a great workshop or lecture 
material- at the following capacity:

A *ton* of UNIX SA's, people I know around NY, constantly jump across 
high-level and scripting languages very easily.  (Myself, I'm a big 
Pyhon fan, but we have loads of smart PHP folks, everyone has to do 
stuff with Perl, and everyone knows their way around various shells for 
scripting- and your right that people who 'get it' can jump across to 
new languages fast...).
In some instances, in systems failure or under attack, many SA's have 
had to hack C/C++ code- yet these folks don't really have much or any 
formal background in anything C (speaking largely for myself).

Regardless, I'm in a position where I just started groking the FreeBSD 
source auditing for some instances of particular system calls, and 
reading the C it all just started making sense- but I want more...
I want to be on the road to providing *decent* patches back to the 
community, instead of hacking stuff I'm certain is full of it's own 
rudimentary holes... and I think there's a lot more folks like me out 
there.  I'm not looking to be a C developer overnight, and actually 
have little desire or need to go deeply down that path, I'm just 
looking for basics so know how not to hang myself with all this rope...

--
I'd think a lecture that covers an 'Alex-view' of practical basics of 
C/C++ in the context of common 'gotchas' and best practices for an 
SA/Scripter audience, (covering stuff that SA's and 
non-formally-trained folks tend to mess up painfully), would be a 
REALLY cool topic somewhere... I'd *totally* show up.

Anyone have any thoughts, on this?

Rocket-
.ike




From lists  Wed Jun 22 14:44:11 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:44:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20050622144406.F60841@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

>
> If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
> interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?

Me no speak c...
c is evil.. :-)

I am a "business developer"... have never really had to work with "low 
level" languages..
For all it's portability/benefits I think a language that needs so much 
attention to detail is counterproductive. Now pascal I like. :-)


> For database people, I have boatloads of questions,

When you have time.. ship them out. :-)
I will love to see my weak points.

> Absolutely. I used to suck at the management interviews (you know,
> answering questions "so, tell me about yourself"

hehe.. I know exactly what you mean.
As I think about long past interviews, specially 5+ years ago, I can only 
laugh at silly answers I had given to unexpected questions.



From mickey  Wed Jun 22 14:25:17 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:25:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221416150.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com> from
	"alex@pilosoft.com" at "Jun 22, 2005 02:27:28 pm"
Message-ID: <200506221825.j5MIPHL6004508@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from alex at pilosoft.com:
> > > Unix admin questions: * Solaris: how do you change fullduplexness of
> > > an interface? [ndd /dev/xxx]
> > 
> > Solaris.. what's that? :-) Not a Solaris person... (but I do know what
> > it is .. at least) hehe.
> Similar thing on linux - how do you do it? ifconfig gets half credit -
> half the time it won't work through ifconfig, and you need to use ethtool.
> Points to pointing out that ifconfig is deprecated. 

this is actually quite a rediculous situation these days that
on so many operating systems ifconfig does not work...

> > > * What's an inode?
> > 
> > Finally.. One, I think, I know. An Inode is how the operating system
> > tracks files and their parts. It uses a B-Tree data structure to track
> > files. Because of it's B-tree data structure it can quickly find a file
> > or all it's parts.
> Actually, inodes don't have much to do with btrees. The specific
> implementation may (now you are getting into ufs vs ext2 vs jfs etc).  
> Inode just has a list of physical blocks associated with this file.

it is not "just a list of blocks"...
in fact it does not even have all the block numbers in it
the block list is less then a half of info stored in the inode.

> > >How do you prevent yourself from running out?
> > 
> > If you are preparing a file system and you know you will have lots of
> > files you can configure the parameters to newfs to have more inodes.
> > 
> > If you already have the filesystem you may need to copy the files and
> > re-do the filesystem. You could also use a mount point to move some of
> > the files to a new partition.
> Correct. Could get more points for noting that some filesystems don't use
> static inodes and have infinite number available.

this is also wrong. there is always a limit.
for example all the inodes have to be stored somewhere
there is your limit on the number of inodes.

> > > * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original
> > > OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very
> > > os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]
> > 
> > Use the install CD to fix the boot block.
> on linux, root=/dev/zzz, on bsd boot -a. Fixing i'd prefer an answer
> that'd say 'grubinstall' or lilo or installboot

boot -a has nothing to do w/ repairing a boot block.
one does not need root mounted as root to do that.

one can boot into any root and then just
fsck+mount the damaged root for repair.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From george  Wed Jun 22 14:49:16 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:49:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <20050622141248.E60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>	<a6a89822722446c7e55530fcc716d59e@lesmuug.org>
	<20050622141248.E60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42B9B2AC.1080302@sddi.net>

Sorry to blow away the last post from this thread. . . but like all talk 
threads, I've followed this closely and want to dump my $.02. . .

Like many of you, I watched technology crash in 2000-2001.  I knew a lot 
of good people who were out of work for a long while, and some intended 
to stay in technology, some just wanted out.

There were many I knew who wanted out, and I was happy.  Nobody likes 
those who don't take their trade seriously and just wants the options or 
whatever. . . so many eyes were just on money.

There was a massive contraction among technical jobs, and it was so 
drastic, that it went far beyond those not interested or unqualified. 
Alex, there are some people we know in common who you would agree are 
more than qualified and driven who were hit hard. . . we can talk at 
some point about that. ..

(my situation was fine. . . my firm went under, and I was employed until 
April 2002 for the liquidation of the assets. I *wanted* to consult, and 
actually didn't take some full time offers.  No regrets, but it was no 
cake walk)

Many of those who wanted technical jobs, but couldn't find anything, 
weren't just fools or idiots.  Hundreds of thousands of jobs 
disappeared.  Even without looking at the raw numbers, there was a 
massive demoralization when so many lose jobs at your firm and beyond. 
Particularly when being in technology meant being treated like a 
demigod.  Then you were just seen as overhead that wasn't and never will 
be a profit center.  There was also resentment from management in many 
cases, who felt like the technology people had pulled a fast one with 
Y2K and the general atmosphere.

Anybody who doesn't see the very real trajectory from 1999 until today 
is missing something. . . too isolated from the larger picture.  Which 
is probably good.

I had seven or so in my IT department.  And the most talented just left 
the industry.  Of the others, only one is still in technology.  Were the 
others meant to be there?  Maybe, maybe not. Some didn't have the 
passion or drive, but we're not paratroopers.

On the individual level, we should learn the clear lessons about 
continuing to improve skills and experience, personal networking, etc.

But the fact remains, technical people created neither the dot com boom 
nor the bust.  It was the speculation of the investors and the relevant 
industries that did.  Nevertheless, it was technical people who were hit 
disproportionately hard in terms of employment.  Of course, I'm not 
talking about the millions whose retirement equity disappeared, usually 
through no fault of their own, as they had invested in mutual funds, 
401k's and union pension funds. . .



From ike  Wed Jun 22 14:52:58 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:52:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <200506221825.j5MIPHL6004508@lucifier.net>
References: <200506221825.j5MIPHL6004508@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <e9e30477b20822004c65f4ef019db674@lesmuug.org>

On Jun 22, 2005, at 2:25 PM, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from alex at pilosoft.com:
>>>> Unix admin questions: * Solaris: how do you change fullduplexness of
>>>> an interface? [ndd /dev/xxx]
>>>
>>> Solaris.. what's that? :-) Not a Solaris person... (but I do know 
>>> what
>>> it is .. at least) hehe.
>> Similar thing on linux - how do you do it? ifconfig gets half credit -
>> half the time it won't work through ifconfig, and you need to use 
>> ethtool.
>> Points to pointing out that ifconfig is deprecated.
>
> this is actually quite a rediculous situation these days that
> on so many operating systems ifconfig does not work...

cough.str(RedHat)

>
>>>> * What's an inode?
<snip> :)

I wish I could hire everybody (including myself) so we could start a 
pure-research lab and geek out all day, guess in the meantime we have 
this list ;)

Rocket-
.ike




From mspitzer  Wed Jun 22 15:00:13 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:00:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> 
> 
> If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
> interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The right
> answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all about how

actually I would say 1, compilers may differ but according to what I
remember of C, been years, it should be 1.  Here is why:

1: c=0
2: c=c ( c=0)
3 : c++ ( c = 0 + 1)

that is how it should work, gcc 3.3.3 agrees with me.  The 500 thing
is not plausable, 0 and  1 are though.

here is a more fun one:
c=0; c =+ ++c;

here I would vote for 2, gcc says 1
1: c=0
2: ++c ( c= 0+1)
3 c= c+c (c = 1+1)

> someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into operations,
> and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment will happen first.

by definition post incrament happens after assignment, again compilers
may vary but that is how it should work

> It shows whether you know what expression is, what rvalue/lvalue is, what
> the code is going to be *compiled* to, etc.
> 
> C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
> them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
> difference between signed int/unsigned int, proper casting, why you
> shouldn't use strcpy, why you shouldn't cast a pointer into an int. (Note:
> just merely knowing that you *shouldnt* doesn't give you any points on
> this test, you need to know why). Those questions I consider

cast a pointer into an int bad for 2 reasons:
1: size mismatch, shoe horn 64 bits into 32 bad
2: the null pointer is not gaurenteed to be 0, if I remember my triva
correctly dec alpha chips used an address that could not be addressed
by the hardware as the null address of the pointer in question and it
did not equal 0.  I may be wrong on this could have been mainframes. 
I do think they did a compiler hack to map the NULL to 0 but it was
only 1 way.

Face it people should use Common Lisp for applacations.

> 'intermediate'. Certainly, if you don't know the answer, I consider that
> you "don't get it".
> 
> For database people, I have boatloads of questions, more theoretical, as
> it is very easy to write bad sql. As in, why do you use stored procedures,
> why should you try to do things in sql vs stored programming language
> (set-a-time vs row-at-a-time), proper schema design (3bnf), indexes and
> how they operate, how optimizer operates and how to help it pick the right
> path, why are sql statements compiled on the backend and pitfalls (cache
> of the execution path), proper use of permissions on tables/stored
> procedures, etc.
> 
> > Also someone's technical abilities have nothing to do with someone's
> > ability to search for jobs. Heck I have met great tech people that were
> > awfull at interviews.
> Absolutely. I used to suck at the management interviews (you know,
> answering questions "so, tell me about yourself" and "what are your
> greatest weaknesses"). But fortunately, those questions have 'right
> answers' and once you learn the right answer, you'll breeze through the
> management interview. ;)

Is the correct answer "I really hate answering these stupid questions?"?

marc

> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From alex  Wed Jun 22 15:02:19 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:02:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <200506221825.j5MIPHL6004508@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221456340.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> > > tracks files and their parts. It uses a B-Tree data structure to
> > > track files. Because of it's B-tree data structure it can quickly
> > > find a file or all it's parts.
> > Actually, inodes don't have much to do with btrees. The specific
> > implementation may (now you are getting into ufs vs ext2 vs jfs etc).  
> > Inode just has a list of physical blocks associated with this file.
> 
> it is not "just a list of blocks"... in fact it does not even have all
> the block numbers in it the block list is less then a half of info
> stored in the inode.
Well, I didn't say it was. We were just discussing disk storage. 

> > > If you already have the filesystem you may need to copy the files
> > > and re-do the filesystem. You could also use a mount point to move
> > > some of the files to a new partition.
> > Correct. Could get more points for noting that some filesystems don't
> > use static inodes and have infinite number available.
> 
> this is also wrong. there is always a limit. for example all the inodes
> have to be stored somewhere there is your limit on the number of inodes.
Incorrect. Get out of from your little bsdworld and look at, say, 
reiserfs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReiserFS#Design

(Note that inode is just an object, so if you have disk space, you can 
have as many inodes as can fit there). 

When I say 'infinite', I obviously mean 'no fixed limit'.

> > > > * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original
> > > > OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very
> > > > os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]
> > > 
> > > Use the install CD to fix the boot block.
> > on linux, root=/dev/zzz, on bsd boot -a. Fixing i'd prefer an answer
> > that'd say 'grubinstall' or lilo or installboot
> 
> boot -a has nothing to do w/ repairing a boot block. one does not need
> root mounted as root to do that.
Grr. See the original question. 
> 
> one can boot into any root and then just fsck+mount the damaged root for
> repair.
I know we don't agree on other things, but its not an excuse to try to 
misinterpret what I say and claim that I'm wrong. 

Love you too,
-alex




From alex  Wed Jun 22 15:11:48 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:11:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <42B9B2AC.1080302@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221504540.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, George R. wrote:

> There was a massive contraction among technical jobs, and it was so
> drastic, that it went far beyond those not interested or unqualified.  
> Alex, there are some people we know in common who you would agree are
> more than qualified and driven who were hit hard. . . we can talk at
> some point about that. ..
I think I'll disagree. Yes, there was contraction in 2001-2002. But, don't
forget about the insane expansion from 1997 to 1999. I submit that after 
the cycle, there were *still* more people employed in 2003 than there were 
in 1996.

Asking salary plays a huge role. If someone was on the street cause they
were still looking for 120k base in 2002 while the going rate for their
skills was 80k, well, that's their own problem.

I'll be honest - the entire group at Lazard where I was consulting was
laid off including our manager and I've had to accept a fulltime job at
less than half I was making consulting in order to keep money coming in.  
But, I was on the street for about 3 weeks, and I think I've made the
right choice then.

<snip>
> Anybody who doesn't see the very real trajectory from 1999 until today
> is missing something. . . too isolated from the larger picture.  Which
> is probably good.
And if you are looking only from 1999, you are missing larger picture too. 
Look at 1995-2005 for perspective. It is classic boom-bust cycle. You make 
lots of $$$ at the peak, that should tide you during the bust. If you were 
making 100$/hr consulting in 1999 and didn't save anything for rainy day - 
again, too bad for you ;)

> I had seven or so in my IT department.  And the most talented just left 
> the industry.  Of the others, only one is still in technology.  Were the 
> others meant to be there?  Maybe, maybe not. Some didn't have the 
> passion or drive, but we're not paratroopers.
> 
> On the individual level, we should learn the clear lessons about
> continuing to improve skills and experience, personal networking, etc.
Bingo.
> 
> But the fact remains, technical people created neither the dot com boom
> nor the bust.  It was the speculation of the investors and the relevant
> industries that did.  Nevertheless, it was technical people who were hit
> disproportionately hard in terms of employment.  Of course, I'm not
> talking about the millions whose retirement equity disappeared, usually
> through no fault of their own, as they had invested in mutual funds,
> 401k's and union pension funds. . .
Again, my opinion is that technology people are better off in 2005 
compared to 1995. So, yeah, boom-bust cycle sucked, but altogether, it 
ain't that bad.

-alex




From alex  Wed Jun 22 15:25:50 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:25:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221512030.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> > If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
> > interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The right
> > answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all about how
> 
> actually I would say 1, compilers may differ but according to what I
> remember of C, been years, it should be 1.  Here is why:
> 
> 1: c=0
> 2: c=c ( c=0)
> 3 : c++ ( c = 0 + 1)
> 
> that is how it should work, gcc 3.3.3 agrees with me.  The 500 thing
> is not plausable, 0 and  1 are though.
Incorrect. When I ask questions and say what is the right answer, I take 
the time to research, so please do the same if you are trying to prove me 
wrong ;)

See, you are confused. You are trying to look what the compiler would do. 
Instead of looking what the *language definition says*. To answer this 
question, you need to be a "language lawyer" - interpreting the standard. 
Now, C standard says that for certain things, the behavior must be:

* 'implementation-defined' - meaning that on a given platform, same input 
should produce same output, and this should be documented (i.e. in this 
case, code would produce consistently 1 or 0).

* 'unspecified' - compiler can do whatever it sees fit as far as ordering 
(in this case, compiler could produce code that would output 1 or 0 
depending on the compile options, or even at runtime)

* 'undefined' - compiler can do whatever it wants, including code that 
crashes your computer and formats your hard drive. The code is incorrect.

Now, the key concept here (which if mentioned at interview would get 100% 
credit) is a 'sequence point'.  See this:

http://publications.gbdirect.co.uk/c_book/chapter8/sequence_points.html
http://www.embedded.com/shared/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=9900661

In this case, this is "variable read and written without intervening 
sequence point". 

In this case, standard says it is "undefined" - meaning platform has
absolutely no requirements as far as what it should (or shouldn't) do.
Technically, that code can crash, and compiler would still be correct
doing it. More precisely,

> 
> here is a more fun one:
> c=0; c =+ ++c;
> 
> here I would vote for 2, gcc says 1
> 1: c=0
> 2: ++c ( c= 0+1)
> 3 c= c+c (c = 1+1)
Doesn't matter what you vote for, matters what ARM says it is.

> > someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into
> > operations, and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment
> > will happen first.
> 
> by definition post incrament happens after assignment, again compilers
> may vary but that is how it should work
Whoever told you that was wrong. Increment does not happen after 
assignment. Increment and assignment are guaranteed to complete before 
next statement is evaluated, that's all.

> > the code is going to be *compiled* to, etc.
> > 
> > C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
> > them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
> > difference between signed int/unsigned int, proper casting, why you
> > shouldn't use strcpy, why you shouldn't cast a pointer into an int.
> > (Note: just merely knowing that you *shouldnt* doesn't give you any
> > points on this test, you need to know why). Those questions I consider
> 
> cast a pointer into an int bad for 2 reasons:
> 1: size mismatch, shoe horn 64 bits into 32 bad
Yes

> 2: the null pointer is not gaurenteed to be 0, if I remember my triva
> correctly dec alpha chips used an address that could not be addressed by
> the hardware as the null address of the pointer in question and it did
> not equal 0.  I may be wrong on this could have been mainframes.  I do
> think they did a compiler hack to map the NULL to 0 but it was only 1
> way.
Yes.

> Is the correct answer "I really hate answering these stupid questions?"?
Nah. It is to come up with most flattering answer. ;) Lots of sites on teh
intarweb have this stuff, so I don't want to repeat myself




From mspitzer  Wed Jun 22 15:27:44 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <20050622183153.GC16354@ixeon.local>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<88A5DD21-E7E8-41FE-8241-A869D74D636D@slam.cc>
	<20050622183153.GC16354@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050622122714793e64@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 12:01:35PM -0400, Aron Roberts wrote:
> >
> >This seems to be where I am at now. Copper has been magically found
> >by very nice install dude that had nothing nice to say about
> >verizon :) I'll wait until the verizon DSL is up for a month or so
> >before switching to a new provider.
> >
> >
> 
> I was under the impression you didn't need to complete the verizon order?

I think the idea is once you get billed for it there is no way verizon
can say oops we were wrong about the copper, so sorry.  Call it
insurance.

marc

> 
> // George
> 
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From alex  Wed Jun 22 15:29:01 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:29:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221512030.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221527230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> In this case, this is "variable read and written without intervening
> sequence point".
Sorry to correct myself. This is 'assignment to variable twice without 
intervening sequence point'.

-alex




From mickey  Wed Jun 22 15:21:53 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:21:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221456340.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com> from
	"alex@pilosoft.com" at "Jun 22, 2005 03:02:19 pm"
Message-ID: <200506221921.j5MJLso4026758@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from alex at pilosoft.com:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:
> 
> > > > tracks files and their parts. It uses a B-Tree data structure to
> > > > track files. Because of it's B-tree data structure it can quickly
> > > > find a file or all it's parts.
> > > Actually, inodes don't have much to do with btrees. The specific
> > > implementation may (now you are getting into ufs vs ext2 vs jfs etc).  
> > > Inode just has a list of physical blocks associated with this file.
> > 
> > it is not "just a list of blocks"... in fact it does not even have all
> > the block numbers in it the block list is less then a half of info
> > stored in the inode.
> Well, I didn't say it was. We were just discussing disk storage. 

you said just has a list of blocks.
what is that just?
if you wanna say it includes the list of blocks then yes
but then again that's the least important part.
it could have been just one ptr instead of many...

> > > > If you already have the filesystem you may need to copy the files
> > > > and re-do the filesystem. You could also use a mount point to move
> > > > some of the files to a new partition.
> > > Correct. Could get more points for noting that some filesystems don't
> > > use static inodes and have infinite number available.
> > 
> > this is also wrong. there is always a limit. for example all the inodes
> > have to be stored somewhere there is your limit on the number of inodes.
> Incorrect. Get out of from your little bsdworld and look at, say, 
> reiserfs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReiserFS#Design
> 
> (Note that inode is just an object, so if you have disk space, you can 
> have as many inodes as can fit there). 
> 
> When I say 'infinite', I obviously mean 'no fixed limit'.

that's why people do not pass interviews.
they do not use th right words.
infinite is wrong. there is no infinite.

> > > > > * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original
> > > > > OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very
> > > > > os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]
> > > > 
> > > > Use the install CD to fix the boot block.
> > > on linux, root=/dev/zzz, on bsd boot -a. Fixing i'd prefer an answer
> > > that'd say 'grubinstall' or lilo or installboot
> > 
> > boot -a has nothing to do w/ repairing a boot block. one does not need
> > root mounted as root to do that.
> Grr. See the original question. 
> > 
> > one can boot into any root and then just fsck+mount the damaged root for
> > repair.
> I know we don't agree on other things, but its not an excuse to try to 
> misinterpret what I say and claim that I'm wrong. 

i just read what you write and it does not mean exactly what you mean it does.
this also serves a purpose -- all interviews are subjective.
if you give the right answer but apparently the interviewer
believes the opposite it all becomes a wrong answer.

so yeah questions are good but they also have infinite number of answers.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From mickey  Wed Jun 22 15:27:42 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com> from Marc Spitzer at
	"Jun 22, 2005 03:00:13 pm"
Message-ID: <200506221927.j5MJRgKl000735@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Marc Spitzer:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> On 6/22/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
> > interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The right
> > answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all about how
> 
> actually I would say 1, compilers may differ but according to what I
> remember of C, been years, it should be 1.  Here is why:

-- and ++ when used in an _expression_ along
w/ the lvalue itself produce undefined _order_
of execution.

so yes -- 500 is a totally wrong answer.
it might be 0 or 1.

> > someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into operations,
> > and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment will happen first.
> 
> by definition post incrament happens after assignment, again compilers
> may vary but that is how it should work

no
the post-ops (as well as pre-ops) happen after(before) the lvalue
is used therefore in case of '=' which is just another operator
in an expression there is no way to say where the pre/post op is executed.

> > It shows whether you know what expression is, what rvalue/lvalue is, what
> > the code is going to be *compiled* to, etc.
> > 
> > C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
> > them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
> > difference between signed int/unsigned int, proper casting, why you
> > shouldn't use strcpy, why you shouldn't cast a pointer into an int. (Note:
> > just merely knowing that you *shouldnt* doesn't give you any points on
> > this test, you need to know why). Those questions I consider

here is a more fun one:
char c = 0xf0;
printf("%x\n", c << 16);

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From george  Wed Jun 22 16:04:17 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:04:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221504540.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221504540.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <42B9C441.60504@sddi.net>

alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, George R. wrote:
> 
> 
>>There was a massive contraction among technical jobs, and it was so
>>drastic, that it went far beyond those not interested or unqualified.  
>>Alex, there are some people we know in common who you would agree are
>>more than qualified and driven who were hit hard. . . we can talk at
>>some point about that. ..
> 
> I think I'll disagree. Yes, there was contraction in 2001-2002. But, don't
> forget about the insane expansion from 1997 to 1999. I submit that after 
> the cycle, there were *still* more people employed in 2003 than there were 
> in 1996.
> 

Well, just ran out for a burger and found that trashy free computer 
magazine. . .

their numbers, from the American Electronics Association. . .

based on total number of jobs, ie, contraction, ie, number lost and gained:

2004	25000 lost to 5.6 million
2003	333000 lost
2002	612000

yes. . . long term there were probably more people employed in 
technology in 2003 than 1996, but that's still a lot of lost jobs.

> Asking salary plays a huge role. If someone was on the street cause they
> were still looking for 120k base in 2002 while the going rate for their
> skills was 80k, well, that's their own problem.
> 

Sure. . . and that was commmon. . .

> I'll be honest - the entire group at Lazard where I was consulting was
> laid off including our manager and I've had to accept a fulltime job at
> less than half I was making consulting in order to keep money coming in.  
> But, I was on the street for about 3 weeks, and I think I've made the
> right choice then.
> 

Yeah, it was probably right . . . ;-)

> <snip>
> 
>>Anybody who doesn't see the very real trajectory from 1999 until today
>>is missing something. . . too isolated from the larger picture.  Which
>>is probably good.
> 
> And if you are looking only from 1999, you are missing larger picture too. 
> Look at 1995-2005 for perspective. It is classic boom-bust cycle. You make 
> lots of $$$ at the peak, that should tide you during the bust. If you were 
> making 100$/hr consulting in 1999 and didn't save anything for rainy day - 
> again, too bad for you ;)
> 

Sure. . . but we're not talking about stocks or real estate prices, 
we're talking about people losing their jobs.  Long-term cycles are 
useful and insightful, but the point is that millions suffered layoffs 
during the bust, and technology was particularly hard hit.

> 
>>I had seven or so in my IT department.  And the most talented just left 
>>the industry.  Of the others, only one is still in technology.  Were the 
>>others meant to be there?  Maybe, maybe not. Some didn't have the 
>>passion or drive, but we're not paratroopers.
>>
>>On the individual level, we should learn the clear lessons about
>>continuing to improve skills and experience, personal networking, etc.
> 
> Bingo.

Yes. . . thus NYCBUG. ;-)

Are any of the talk jobless on our jobs list?  There are regular 
listings. . .

> 
>>But the fact remains, technical people created neither the dot com boom
>>nor the bust.  It was the speculation of the investors and the relevant
>>industries that did.  Nevertheless, it was technical people who were hit
>>disproportionately hard in terms of employment.  Of course, I'm not
>>talking about the millions whose retirement equity disappeared, usually
>>through no fault of their own, as they had invested in mutual funds,
>>401k's and union pension funds. . .
> 
> Again, my opinion is that technology people are better off in 2005 
> compared to 1995. So, yeah, boom-bust cycle sucked, but altogether, it 
> ain't that bad.

But you argued that those out of work for more than 2 weeks during the 
bust were in some senses deserving of their fate. . . I disagree and 
think I made that point clear. . .

BTW, can we play with KPhone now?

<g>

g



From alex  Wed Jun 22 16:19:54 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:19:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <200506221927.j5MJRgKl000735@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221605180.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Marc Spitzer:
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > On 6/22/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
> > > interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The
> > > right answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all
> > > about how
> > 
> > actually I would say 1, compilers may differ but according to what I
> > remember of C, been years, it should be 1.  Here is why:
> 
> -- and ++ when used in an _expression_ along w/ the lvalue itself
> produce undefined _order_ of execution.

> so yes -- 500 is a totally wrong answer. it might be 0 or 1.
Standard disagrees with you. See the difference between 'unspecified'
(which would mean 0 or 1) and 'undefined' (which would mean 0, 1 and any
other value or behaviour) in ARM. Yes, practically you aren't likely to
get anything other than 0 or 1, but, since you want to be pedantic. ;)

http://library.n0i.net/programming/c/cp-iso/intro.html
Paragraph 1.3.12 for definition of 'undefined' and 

http://library.n0i.net/programming/c/cp-iso/expr.html
Paragraph 5.4 for explanation of what is unspecified and what is 
undefined with regard to ordering of operations after sequence point.
> 
> no the post-ops (as well as pre-ops) happen after(before) the lvalue is
> used therefore in case of '=' which is just another operator in an
> expression there is no way to say where the pre/post op is executed.
> 
> > > It shows whether you know what expression is, what rvalue/lvalue is, what
> > > the code is going to be *compiled* to, etc.
> > > 
> > > C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
> > > them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
> > > difference between signed int/unsigned int, proper casting, why you
> > > shouldn't use strcpy, why you shouldn't cast a pointer into an int. (Note:
> > > just merely knowing that you *shouldnt* doesn't give you any points on
> > > this test, you need to know why). Those questions I consider
> 
> here is a more fun one:
> char c = 0xf0;
> printf("%x\n", c << 16);
lovely

c is a signed char (strangely enough, compiler lets you assign a value 
that's technically out of range for signed char without a warning)

arithmetic bitwise shift will fill high bits with ones, thus instead of 
0xf00000 you get 0xfff00000





From aron  Wed Jun 22 16:31:56 2005
From: aron (Aron Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:31:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Brooklyn Internet Backwater, Need Advice.
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050622122714793e64@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D2CAB9D-581E-4331-ACCE-383ED3D040C9@slam.cc>
	<42B76B2C.4050804@hirschman.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506202127280.8775@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<88A5DD21-E7E8-41FE-8241-A869D74D636D@slam.cc>
	<20050622183153.GC16354@ixeon.local>
	<8c50a3c3050622122714793e64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DF63561-8C67-4F2D-BA00-0375D6545214@slam.cc>


On Jun 22, 2005, at 3:27 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
> I think the idea is once you get billed for it there is no way verizon
> can say oops we were wrong about the copper, so sorry.  Call it
> insurance.
>

Bingo.   not to mention that I have been in this place 3 weeks now  
with no internet, anything that might drag it out longer might just  
kill me. I am starting to feel downright Amish.


I also realized that I top posted again without thinking. Damn  
Mail.app default and my own general laziness.




From spork  Wed Jun 22 17:45:58 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:45:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <23314c46d02c149be0ecafb162ad5d7d@lesmuug.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<23314c46d02c149be0ecafb162ad5d7d@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506221744350.355@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey Alex, All,
>
> I'd think a lecture that covers an 'Alex-view' of practical basics of C/C++ 
> in the context of common 'gotchas' and best practices for an SA/Scripter 
> audience, (covering stuff that SA's and non-formally-trained folks tend to 
> mess up painfully), would be a REALLY cool topic somewhere... I'd *totally* 
> show up.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts, on this?

I'd attend that one.

Another good one would be something like "understanding object-oriented 
programming in php and perl", because I get all dyslexic as soon as I look 
at that stuff.

Charles

> Rocket-
> .ike
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From alex  Wed Jun 22 17:47:00 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:47:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506221744350.355@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221745470.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> > I'd think a lecture that covers an 'Alex-view' of practical basics of
> > C/C++ in the context of common 'gotchas' and best practices for an
> > SA/Scripter audience, (covering stuff that SA's and
> > non-formally-trained folks tend to mess up painfully), would be a
> > REALLY cool topic somewhere... I'd *totally* show up.
> >
> > Anyone have any thoughts, on this?
> 
> I'd attend that one.
> 
> Another good one would be something like "understanding object-oriented
> programming in php and perl", because I get all dyslexic as soon as I
> look at that stuff.
Unfortunately, I am a horrid public speaker. :)

However, if you looking for understanding OOP in perl - read damien 
conway's book. it is most awesome.

I dont think php quite qualifies as proper object-oriented language, but I 
may be biased against php ;)




From bob  Wed Jun 22 18:06:29 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:06:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0AE470D-98B6-4020-BE9A-C981ABC56A12@redivi.com>


On Jun 22, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:

> On 6/22/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
>> interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The  
>> right
>> answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all about how
>>
>
> actually I would say 1, compilers may differ but according to what I
> remember of C, been years, it should be 1.  Here is why:
>
> 1: c=0
> 2: c=c ( c=0)
> 3 : c++ ( c = 0 + 1)
>
> that is how it should work, gcc 3.3.3 agrees with me.  The 500 thing
> is not plausable, 0 and  1 are though.

I've never seen a compiler that would do anything but 1 here.

> here is a more fun one:
> c=0; c =+ ++c;
>
> here I would vote for 2, gcc says 1
> 1: c=0
> 2: ++c ( c= 0+1)
> 3 c= c+c (c = 1+1)

GCC says 1 because you don't remember C syntax correctly.  =+ isn't  
in-place addition, it is plain old assignment with a unary plus  
operator (effectively a no-op).  If you had done += then it would've  
been 2.

What GCC is doing here is this:

1. c=0
2. ++c (c = 0 + 1)
3. c = c (c = 1)

>> someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into  
>> operations,
>> and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment will happen  
>> first.
>>
>
> by definition post incrament happens after assignment, again compilers
> may vary but that is how it should work

Yeah, if the answer is not 1, then the compiler has a bug.

-bob




From bob  Wed Jun 22 18:13:56 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:13:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221745470.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221745470.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <F2E8933B-2671-4DEF-AB63-CCF741A2FFFD@redivi.com>


On Jun 22, 2005, at 5:47 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>
>>> I'd think a lecture that covers an 'Alex-view' of practical  
>>> basics of
>>> C/C++ in the context of common 'gotchas' and best practices for an
>>> SA/Scripter audience, (covering stuff that SA's and
>>> non-formally-trained folks tend to mess up painfully), would be a
>>> REALLY cool topic somewhere... I'd *totally* show up.
>>>
>>> Anyone have any thoughts, on this?
>>>
>>
>> I'd attend that one.
>>
>> Another good one would be something like "understanding object- 
>> oriented
>> programming in php and perl", because I get all dyslexic as soon as I
>> look at that stuff.
>>
> Unfortunately, I am a horrid public speaker. :)
>
> However, if you looking for understanding OOP in perl - read damien
> conway's book. it is most awesome.
>
> I dont think php quite qualifies as proper object-oriented  
> language, but I
> may be biased against php ;)

PHP 5 provides better facilities than Perl 5 to write object oriented  
code.  Though I would say that either of them are a very bad choice  
for that paradigm.

-bob




From jbaltz  Wed Jun 22 18:36:03 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 18:36:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <F2E8933B-2671-4DEF-AB63-CCF741A2FFFD@redivi.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221745470.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<F2E8933B-2671-4DEF-AB63-CCF741A2FFFD@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <42B9E7D3.3000304@3phasecomputing.com>

On 06/22/05 06:13 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> PHP 5 provides better facilities than Perl 5 to write object oriented  
> code.  Though I would say that either of them are a very bad choice  for 
> that paradigm.

CLOS, anyone?

> -bob

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.



From mspitzer  Wed Jun 22 20:51:43 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:51:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <C0AE470D-98B6-4020-BE9A-C981ABC56A12@redivi.com>
References: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C0AE470D-98B6-4020-BE9A-C981ABC56A12@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305062217514d7499b9@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/22/05, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
> 
> On Jun 22, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> > here I would vote for 2, gcc says 1
> > 1: c=0
> > 2: ++c ( c= 0+1)
> > 3 c= c+c (c = 1+1)
> 
> GCC says 1 because you don't remember C syntax correctly.  =+ isn't
> in-place addition, it is plain old assignment with a unary plus
> operator (effectively a no-op).  If you had done += then it would've
> been 2.

Thanks for the pointer, it has been years.  And I always tried not to
be cute, always cost me more time debugging then it saved in not
writing 2 or 3 lines instead of 1.

> 
> What GCC is doing here is this:
> 
> 1. c=0
> 2. ++c (c = 0 + 1)
> 3. c = c (c = 1)
> 
> >> someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into
> >> operations,
> >> and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment will happen
> >> first.
> >>
> >
> > by definition post incrament happens after assignment, again compilers
> > may vary but that is how it should work
> 
> Yeah, if the answer is not 1, then the compiler has a bug.
> 
> -bob
> 
>



From jdev  Wed Jun 22 21:14:09 2005
From: jdev (Jed Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:14:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
References: <8c50a3c30506220903141c5496@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <d9d2d1$lml$1@sea.gmane.org>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000 at bawx.pilosoft.com>,
 <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> I have a list of questions I like to ask on interviews from prospective 
> employees, I should share it and you can see how well would you do.
> 
> Some of those questions are intentionally tricky. For some, nobody [with
> few rare exceptions] knows the answer offhand, and I really evaluate
> thought process how would someone try to solve it.
> 
> Network questions:
>
> * How many fields in an IP header router will change while forwarding?
> [ttl and crc]

Record-route options, anyone?

> * Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative dns 
> server [cache growth/cache poisoning]

I was under the impression that modern nameservers resist cache
poisoning, and if the cache can grow beyond reasonable bounds, You
Have Other Problems.  As a general security principle, though, it
nonetheless makes sense to isolate <thing that random people can feed
malicious input to> from <source of important information>.  Especially
if individual hosts don't have their own local slaves, so a dead or
corrupted nameserver can devastate the entire network.

> Unix admin questions:
[]
> * What's an inode?

The physical representation of a potential file.  The name "inode" kind
of implies the traditional Unix filesystem or at least something similar
to it it; for example, while HFS file id's are a little like inode
numbers, and can be (and I think are) stuffed into st_ino, I don't know
that it's terribly meaningful to talk about inodes with HFS.

> What happens if you run out of inodes?

I'd find someone who speaks NetApp to go summon some more.  (-:

> How do you prevent yourself from running out? 

Estimate the average file size, divide volume size thereby, add margin
for error, and pray.

> * What's a sticky permissions bit?

Much like many aspects of Unix, it's something that makes more sense if
you're a PDP-11.

> * When would you use tar vs cpio? [silly question - but at least it would 
> show someone knows what cpio is]

1) cpio can be useful when you have a command like find(1) writing out a
list of files (in a nontrivial directory tree) you need to archive or to
copy somewhere.

2) Don't use either; use pax instead.  (-:

> * You are trying to unmount filesystem, but it tells you 'busy'. How would 
> you see what processes are using it? [fuser -m or lsof]

This gets more fun when the open isn't from a user process, but because
you swapctl -a'ed a file on the filesystem a while ago and forgot about
it.  (In my defense, that was a test system, and also I was doing this
at home.)

> * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the original 
> OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard drive? [very 
> os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you for root fs]

You don't, because you updated the system since the original install,
and the new userland isn't compatible with the old kernel on the CD, and
the bootloader isn't sufficiently powerful to nab the old kernel off the
hard drive. (-:


-- 
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l))))))  (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k)))))))    '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))




From jdev  Wed Jun 22 21:41:02 2005
From: jdev (Jed Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:41:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
References: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <d9d3ve$p19$1@sea.gmane.org>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000 at bawx.pilosoft.com>,
 <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> If you want me to give examples in software development, my favorite
> interview question is "c=0; c=c++;" what is the value of c?  The right
> answer is 'undefined', it can be 0, 1, or 500. Now, its all about how
> someone thinks about resolving this: Break the statement into operations,
> and try to figure whether assignment or post-increment will happen first.  
> It shows whether you know what expression is, what rvalue/lvalue is, what
> the code is going to be *compiled* to, etc.

Huh.  My thought process started with "Oh, that's one of the standard
examples of a sequence-point violation", and then I tried to remember if
that's actually full nasal-demons territory or if the Standard gives you
anything more (and I don't know offhand, but I suspect it's the former).

> C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
> them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
> difference between signed int/unsigned int

/*
 * This came up (in a much more complicated form)
 * on the GCC list recently:
 */
signed int x = INT_MAX;
unsigned int y = UINT_MAX;
++x; ++y;
/* Now, what are the values of x and y? */


-- 
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l))))))  (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k)))))))    '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))




From alex  Wed Jun 22 21:51:08 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:51:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <d9d2d1$lml$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506222145480.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Jed Davis wrote:

> > * How many fields in an IP header router will change while forwarding?
> > [ttl and crc]
> 
> Record-route options, anyone?
200% credit for the question. :)

> > * Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative
> > dns server [cache growth/cache poisoning]
> 
> I was under the impression that modern nameservers resist cache
> poisoning, and if the cache can grow beyond reasonable bounds, You Have
Kind Of Sort Of.
> Other Problems.  As a general security principle, though, it nonetheless
> makes sense to isolate <thing that random people can feed malicious
> input to> from <source of important information>.  Especially if
> individual hosts don't have their own local slaves, so a dead or
> corrupted nameserver can devastate the entire network.
Bingo.
> 
> > Unix admin questions:
> []
> > * What's an inode?
> 
> The physical representation of a potential file.  The name "inode" kind
> of implies the traditional Unix filesystem or at least something similar
> to it it; for example, while HFS file id's are a little like inode
> numbers, and can be (and I think are) stuffed into st_ino, I don't know
> that it's terribly meaningful to talk about inodes with HFS.
Actually, concept of inode exists on any unix system, and is very separate
from the implementation of inode. (For example, you are guaranteed that if
two files have same ino as returned by fstat, they are same hardlinked
files). Points for pointing out that inode has permissions and not an 
individual directory entry. 

> > * What's a sticky permissions bit?
> 
> Much like many aspects of Unix, it's something that makes more sense if
> you're a PDP-11.
Er not quite, see /tmp filesystem.
> 
> > * When would you use tar vs cpio? [silly question - but at least it would 
> > show someone knows what cpio is]
> 
> 1) cpio can be useful when you have a command like find(1) writing out a
> list of files (in a nontrivial directory tree) you need to archive or to
> copy somewhere.
> 
> 2) Don't use either; use pax instead.  (-:
:)
> 
> > * You are trying to unmount filesystem, but it tells you 'busy'. How would 
> > you see what processes are using it? [fuser -m or lsof]
> 
> This gets more fun when the open isn't from a user process, but because
> you swapctl -a'ed a file on the filesystem a while ago and forgot about
> it.  (In my defense, that was a test system, and also I was doing this
> at home.)
Great point. :)

> > * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the
> > original OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard
> > drive? [very os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you
> > for root fs]
> 
> You don't, because you updated the system since the original install,
> and the new userland isn't compatible with the old kernel on the CD, and
> the bootloader isn't sufficiently powerful to nab the old kernel off the
> hard drive. (-:
Story of bad luck. That would also get full credit on the interview:)




From alex  Wed Jun 22 21:52:48 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:52:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <d9d3ve$p19$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506222151440.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Jed Davis wrote:

> /*
>  * This came up (in a much more complicated form)
>  * on the GCC list recently:
>  */
> signed int x = INT_MAX;
> unsigned int y = UINT_MAX;
> ++x; ++y;
> /* Now, what are the values of x and y? */
If I remember correctly, both will be undefined. Actually, there's a
chance that compiler will warn if the constant static variable assignment
is used...




From jdev  Wed Jun 22 22:03:51 2005
From: jdev (Jed Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:03:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
References: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c305062212007488c6f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C0AE470D-98B6-4020-BE9A-C981ABC56A12@redivi.com>
	<8c50a3c305062217514d7499b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9d5a7$rmh$1@sea.gmane.org>

In article <8c50a3c305062217514d7499b9 at mail.gmail.com>,
Marc Spitzer  <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/22/05, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Jun 22, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> > > here I would vote for 2, gcc says 1
> > > 1: c=0
> > > 2: ++c ( c= 0+1)
> > > 3 c= c+c (c = 1+1)
> > 
> > GCC says 1 because you don't remember C syntax correctly.  =+ isn't
> > in-place addition, it is plain old assignment with a unary plus
> > operator (effectively a no-op).  If you had done += then it would've
> > been 2.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer, it has been years.

Well, =+ used to be the correct spelling of that operator, for values
of "used to" in the general vicinity of "before I was born".  The Unix
6th Ed. source (as immortalized by the Lions book) has it, among other
subtle differences from C89.


-- 
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l))))))  (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k)))))))    '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))




From bob  Wed Jun 22 22:11:46 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:11:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <d9d3ve$p19$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <20050622135226.P60841@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<d9d3ve$p19$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <649E322C-AD8A-4B55-8463-842E77046E01@redivi.com>


On Jun 22, 2005, at 9:41 PM, Jed Davis wrote:

> In article <Pine.LNX. 
> 4.44.0506221357230.11177-100000 at bawx.pilosoft.com>,
>  <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>
>> C has a lot of "gotchas" - if you don't know them and can't recognize
>> them, you'll fail my interview. I like to give examples that'd make a
>> difference between signed int/unsigned int
>>
>
> /*
>  * This came up (in a much more complicated form)
>  * on the GCC list recently:
>  */
> signed int x = INT_MAX;
> unsigned int y = UINT_MAX;
> ++x; ++y;
> /* Now, what are the values of x and y? */

While that's theoretically CPU architecture dependent, in practice  
you should expect -(INT_MAX + 1) and 0 for that.  Less painful  
programming languages either give you some kind of overflow exception  
or they simply would have integer types with infinite extent because  
modular arithmetic isn't actually what you want most of the time.

-bob




From jdev  Wed Jun 22 22:52:16 2005
From: jdev (Jed Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:52:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
References: <d9d3ve$p19$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506222151440.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <d9d84v$1qg$1@sea.gmane.org>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506222151440.26269-100000 at bawx.pilosoft.com>,
 <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Jed Davis wrote:
> 
> > /*
> >  * This came up (in a much more complicated form)
> >  * on the GCC list recently:
> >  */
> > signed int x = INT_MAX;
> > unsigned int y = UINT_MAX;
> > ++x; ++y;
> > /* Now, what are the values of x and y? */
>
> If I remember correctly, both will be undefined. Actually, there's a
> chance that compiler will warn if the constant static variable assignment
> is used...

Unsigned types are defined to wrap, apparently:
  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gcc.devel/67921
and there's some discussion of "undefined" vs. "unspecified" there, too:
  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gcc.devel/67970


-- 
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l))))))  (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k)))))))    '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))




From jdev  Wed Jun 22 23:34:45 2005
From: jdev (Jed Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:34:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
References: <d9d2d1$lml$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506222145480.26269-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <d9dakk$726$1@sea.gmane.org>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506222145480.26269-100000 at bawx.pilosoft.com>,
 <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:

> > > * What's a sticky permissions bit?
> > 
> > Much like many aspects of Unix, it's something that makes more sense if
> > you're a PDP-11.
> Er not quite, see /tmp filesystem.

That I knew about, and it's even fairly well documented; I was
attempting humor about the maybe-somewhat-less-known origins.  (Though
now that I check, those are documented too; see sticky(7) on at least
NetBSD, which also discusses the bit's meaning on SunOS 4, which I
hadn't known until now.)

> > > * You screwed up boot block and server won't boot. You have the
> > > original OS CD. How do you boot off the CD the OS on the current hard
> > > drive? [very os-dependent, but in most cases boot -a will prompt you
> > > for root fs]
> > 
> > You don't, because you updated the system since the original install,
> > and the new userland isn't compatible with the old kernel on the CD, and
> > the bootloader isn't sufficiently powerful to nab the old kernel off the
> > hard drive. (-:
> Story of bad luck. That would also get full credit on the interview:)

That one actually isn't a true story; it's just my attempt to break the
question by extrapolating from related traps I know of.  I wouldn't be
surprised if it had happened to someone, though.


-- 
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l))))))  (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k)))))))    '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))




From ike  Thu Jun 23 00:21:55 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:21:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221745470.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221745470.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <f5b9594b72e54127b2697db0cfa4bdca@lesmuug.org>

Alex, All,

On Jun 22, 2005, at 5:47 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> Unfortunately, I am a horrid public speaker. :)

We'll just have to get you out with a few beers in you before-hand 
then...

Rocket-
.ike




From ike  Thu Jun 23 00:25:28 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:25:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Filesystems Comparison
Message-ID: <9119345075a57855e2427ff366fe27e1@lesmuug.org>

Hi all,

Tons of traffic today, but from a link to RiserFS, I found this COOL 
treat to end my day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems

Everyone, print out a copy and put it under your pillow!

Nighty-night, sweet dreams!
.ike




From george  Thu Jun 23 01:33:15 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 01:33:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
Message-ID: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>

I have noticed that the further away I am from my youthful hardware 
building apprentice days of yore, I am less and less likely to realize, 
at a reasonable pace, when I am hitting brick walls that I attribute to 
  software when it's actually hardware.

This has happened a few times recently, most notably on a FBSD 5.3, 5.4 
box that would bomb out while updating src. . .  It would bomb out at 
different points during the process, and it was killing me.  Hardware 
seemed like the least likely problem.  I was ready to open up a pizza 
place, and have my BSD career tombstone end with "victim of 5.3".

I ran memtest and found that one of the brand-new RAM modules was dead, 
but I am convinced, maybe wrongly, that in my earlier days, I would have 
looked at hardware immediately.

Anyway, Ike and I were discussing this evening, and maybe it would make 
sense to figure out some daily tests on production hardware that would 
notify the results when an error occurs, say, with memtest or fsck. 
Outside of what already comes out in the daily/weekly/monthly emails.

Of course I enjoyed the old uptime project (and isn't there a variant 
around today, still free?), but a lack of ping responses doesn't do it, 
or I'd sort that out myself with my own infrastructure.

Any thoughts on this?  Does it make sense to have regular tests running 
on production hardware?  Does anyone do this in their own environment, 
outside of whatever the various full-scale open and closed source 
products already do on hardware monitoring?

George



From driodeiros  Thu Jun 23 01:50:45 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:50:45 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 01:33:15AM -0400, George R. wrote:
> Anyway, Ike and I were discussing this evening, and maybe it would make 
> sense to figure out some daily tests on production hardware that would 
> notify the results when an error occurs, say, with memtest or fsck. 
> Outside of what already comes out in the daily/weekly/monthly emails.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?  Does it make sense to have regular tests running 
> on production hardware?  Does anyone do this in their own environment, 
> outside of whatever the various full-scale open and closed source 
> products already do on hardware monitoring?

This is what I think about it:

I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine. Even 
if you could do it, you will have to modify the memtest code to send
you the results via (smtp, http, etc...) something tough considering 
(I am not sure) memtest is written in assembly.

Regarding to the CPU, pretty much the same.... Well... you can actually
run programs like cpuburn but those are going to put your CPU to 0%
idle. Something you don't want in a production server. Besides cpuburn
has to run a couple of days at least in order to verify that the CPU
is going to work fine over extreme.

Rergarding to the Hard drives, you have the SMART feature that 
comes with all the hard drives nowadays, again, if you make 
your hd to run tests that is going to reduce performance. If 
you know when you can tolerate that then you can safely run it. 

David



From nycbug  Thu Jun 23 02:00:29 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:00:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] nfs question
In-Reply-To: <42B893E1.8070308@tbwachiat.com>
References: <42B893E1.8070308@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20050623060029.GA27003@syntax.cyth.net>

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 06:25:37PM -0400, Steve Rieger wrote:
> how would i go about putting a username and passwd into /etc/fstab when 
> doing a nfs mount
> 
> i tried it with username=xxx,password=yyy but no go

NFS uses passwords?



From ike  Thu Jun 23 02:45:01 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:45:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <88102f4a335b26195a15484e3012f06c@lesmuug.org>

Hi David, All,

On Jun 23, 2005, at 1:50 AM, David Rio Deiros wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 01:33:15AM -0400, George R. wrote:
>> Anyway, Ike and I were discussing this evening, and maybe it would 
>> make
>> sense to figure out some daily tests on production hardware that would
>> notify the results when an error occurs, say, with memtest or fsck.
>> Outside of what already comes out in the daily/weekly/monthly emails.
>>
>> Any thoughts on this?  Does it make sense to have regular tests 
>> running
>> on production hardware?  Does anyone do this in their own environment,
>> outside of whatever the various full-scale open and closed source
>> products already do on hardware monitoring?
>
> This is what I think about it:
>
> I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine. Even
> if you could do it, you will have to modify the memtest code to send
> you the results via (smtp, http, etc...) something tough considering
> (I am not sure) memtest is written in assembly.
>
> Regarding to the CPU, pretty much the same.... Well... you can actually
> run programs like cpuburn but those are going to put your CPU to 0%
> idle. Something you don't want in a production server. Besides cpuburn
> has to run a couple of days at least in order to verify that the CPU
> is going to work fine over extreme.
>
> Rergarding to the Hard drives, you have the SMART feature that
> comes with all the hard drives nowadays, again, if you make
> your hd to run tests that is going to reduce performance. If
> you know when you can tolerate that then you can safely run it.
>
> David

All valid points- basically that proper hardware tests involve 
reducing/imparing system performance... *but* what if these tests were 
run on clusters of boxes?  i.e. even at my small scale with my 
operations, I could totally afford to drop a server for testing, while 
running concurrent services on another box- (in my case, jumping jails 
across boxen).

Just food for thought on this issue- it seems to me this gets even more 
realistic as things like BGP/multihoming and CARP based systems make it 
'easy' to run tests which affect hardware performance...

/me thinking out loud...

Rocket-
.ike




From driodeiros  Thu Jun 23 03:33:35 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 00:33:35 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <88102f4a335b26195a15484e3012f06c@lesmuug.org>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<88102f4a335b26195a15484e3012f06c@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20050623073335.GA16298@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 02:45:01AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hi David, All,

Hi!

Some wild ideas:

Let's take this as a premise:

> *but* what if these tests were 
> run on clusters of boxes? 

Ok, every machine in the cluster has a little cronjob that runs 
a program/script every day. That script will ask to another 
machine if it is its turn to make the system checks. If so, 
the script will modify the booting options on the local
machine in order to load a ramdisk as a filesystem. On that 
filesystem we will have the right tools for the testing and
the init scripts will end up loading a program which will 
run all the tests to finally report to another machine the
results. After doing that, we can rewrite the booting options on
that machine and the machine would boot with the "normal" OS.

There is still one little problem: How do we run memtest?

> Just food for thought on this issue- it seems to me this gets even more 
> realistic as things like BGP/multihoming and CARP based systems make it 
> 'easy' to run tests which affect hardware performance...

This would be a nice way to take advantage of CARP. 

David



From jbaltz  Thu Jun 23 10:09:54 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:09:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] actual BSD question: fbsd 5.4 on ultra10
Message-ID: <42BAC2B2.8090701@3phasecomputing.com>

Comrades:

I'm sorry if this is wholly obvious, but I'm having a bit of difficulty 
here with my old U10.

I've got the 5.4 sparc64 ISOs downloaded...I've burned 'em already, 
(yes, checked the MD5 on the downloaded ISO files) and I'm getting no 
loving when I try to "bood cdrom" from the PROM prompt.

I get
> ok boot cdrom
> Resetting ...
> 
> 
> Sun Ultra 5/10 UPA/PCI (UltraSPARC-IIi 440MHz), No Keyboard
> OpenBoot 3.19, 768 MB (50 ns) memory installed, Serial #xxxxxxxx.
> Ethernet address 8:0:20:xx:xx:xx, Host ID: 80zzzzzzz.
> 
> 
> 
> Rebooting with command: boot cdrom
> Boot device: /pci at 1f,0/pci at 1,1/ide at 3/cdrom at 2,0:f  File and args:
> Evaluating: boot cdrom
> 
> Can't open boot device

odd that...maybe I need something else...maybe it's not the right device

> ok boot cd
> Boot device: /pci at 1f,0/pci at 1,1/ide at 3/cdrom at 0,0  File and args:
> Can't read disk label.
> Can't open disk label package
> 
> Can't open boot device

well, that's a bit more helpful (I entered cd as a devalias for some 
other IDE device in the box, figuring that maybe the original devalias 
might have been screwy.) since at least it's complaining about SOMETHING.

The worst part is...I've got FBSD 5.1 on this box but I can't remember 
the root password :-( I could have just done an in-place upgrade...

Thanks one and all for assistance. I'll summarize to the list, if anyone 
cares.

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.



From nycbug  Thu Jun 23 10:13:41 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:13:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>

On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 10:50:45PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote:
> I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine.

I would imagine a kernel module could be continuously scanning RAM, taking up RAM
just like any normal program would, except that it never gets swapped out and
it gets to choose exactly where in the memory space it will be allocated.

> Even if you could do it, you will have to modify the memtest code to send
> you the results via (smtp, http, etc...) something tough considering 
> (I am not sure) memtest is written in assembly.

Even if memtest were written completely in assembly (which I'm doubtful of)
you can still call C functions in assembly.  Just like in the kernel.

Or instead of doing that, you could add a sysctl and change its value whenever
anything is found.

> Regarding to the CPU, pretty much the same.... Well... you can actually
> run programs like cpuburn but those are going to put your CPU to 0%
> idle. Something you don't want in a production server.

nice(1).

> Besides cpuburn has to run a couple of days at least in order to
> verify that the CPU is going to work fine over extreme.

Your production servers don't run for over a couple of days?



From max  Thu Jun 23 10:15:36 2005
From: max (max)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:15:36 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: MSNBC on the decline of technology jobs
In-Reply-To: <d9d2d1$lml$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <8c50a3c30506220903141c5496@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0506221203350.11177-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<d9d2d1$lml$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20050623141536.GA60158@neuropunks.org>

> > * Why should you have recursive dns server separate from authoritative dns 
> > server [cache growth/cache poisoning]
the only real reason i know of is to prevent denial of service attacks against an authoritative dns server by issueing false queries requiring recursion. Another reason would be access control - authoritative servers need to process queries from entire inet, ISP recursive name server *should* process queries from ISP's IP block
As far as declining tech jobs, well, its alot easier to outsource development than infrastructure design and maintanence from what I've seen. 
One fun idea I saw sometime ago was for government sector to rely less on commercial vendors and more on internal filtering/training/licensing of IT employees. You can see something similar to that in countries which start to adopt open source in gov infrastructure. Even though they hire companies to hack up linux to what they want it to be, the result is just that - software created by the sector for the sector. An example could be NSA linux distro, which was developed in-house with NSA grade (so the claim is) security features. Its alot easier to deal with code you wrote or rewrote than to take MS Windows and hope that internal audits plus vendor patch schedule will provide adequate security.
I might be wrong, my 2c..



From george  Thu Jun 23 10:42:45 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:42:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>


On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:13:41AM -0400, Ray wrote:
>On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 10:50:45PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote:
>> I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine.

recompile a kernel 20 times and pipe stderr/stdout to a file,
compare files sizes... pretty darn effective, for a running machine


>> Regarding to the CPU, pretty much the same.... Well... you can actually
>> run programs like cpuburn but those are going to put your CPU to 0%
>> idle. Something you don't want in a production server.
>
>nice(1).

and you may well learn the burden continuous context switching puts on
your machine...


How about a real world problem? I've got a box that I cannot identify
the problem with. The cause is probably from pushing the bus and clock
rates to a point it was remained stable, a few years ago. The cpu is an
AMD 750 clocked to 950 (they are good at that), it's a VIA chipset with
a little heatsink required on the 'south bridge' chip (disk controller,
sound, etc). Well that fell off a while ago and didn't cause any
immediate problems (and I mean in a tight, warm, installation, for many
months after I discovered it)...

now, this tower running open, fails (locks up) from 3 to 48 hours,
during no unusual activity (disk, cpu, etc) the south bridge chip won't
be hot to touch and I'll often use an SATA and no ATA disk. Memtest86
won't fail after long runs.

So how can I test/salvage? My guess is it's the south bridge, but short
of investing $30 in Artic silver glue to see if the problem goes away
(which I doubt because that chip doesn't really get hot), I'm not sure
how to tell, ditto for the cpu, don't want to replace if it's not broke
and that's got a nice new fan on it... so what is broke? and how can I
tell?

(I don't expect a useful answer here...)

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Thu Jun 23 10:53:27 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:53:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ruby vulnerability. . .
Message-ID: <42BACCE7.6080705@sddi.net>

Anyone have idea about this early Ruby 1.8.2_3 vulnerability?

Doesn't seem to be any updates yet. . . although portaudit detects and 
it's on the non-FBSD vulnerability lists. . .

George



From nycbug  Thu Jun 23 10:56:20 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:56:20 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <20050623145620.GC30384@syntax.cyth.net>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:42:45AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:13:41AM -0400, Ray wrote:
> >On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 10:50:45PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote:
> >> I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine.
> 
> recompile a kernel 20 times and pipe stderr/stdout to a file,
> compare files sizes... pretty darn effective, for a running machine

You'd probably want to do some minimal checksumming, too.

> How about a real world problem? I've got a box that I cannot identify
> the problem with. The cause is probably from pushing the bus and clock
> rates to a point it was remained stable, a few years ago. The cpu is an
> AMD 750 clocked to 950 (they are good at that), it's a VIA chipset with
> a little heatsink required on the 'south bridge' chip (disk controller,
> sound, etc). Well that fell off a while ago and didn't cause any
> immediate problems (and I mean in a tight, warm, installation, for many
> months after I discovered it)...
> 
> now, this tower running open, fails (locks up) from 3 to 48 hours,
> during no unusual activity (disk, cpu, etc) the south bridge chip won't
> be hot to touch and I'll often use an SATA and no ATA disk. Memtest86
> won't fail after long runs.
> 
> So how can I test/salvage? My guess is it's the south bridge, but short
> of investing $30 in Artic silver glue to see if the problem goes away
> (which I doubt because that chip doesn't really get hot), I'm not sure
> how to tell, ditto for the cpu, don't want to replace if it's not broke
> and that's got a nice new fan on it... so what is broke? and how can I
> tell?

Swapping parts with spare hardware.



From mickey  Thu Jun 23 10:48:36 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:48:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] fw boxen for the colo
Message-ID: <200506231448.j5NEmaQI009272@lucifier.net>

re
we are looking into making a redundant fw for the colo rack.
so i have one sun netra t1 and was hoping another one would
materialise from the same source this one came from but it
did not for some reason. anyway. perhaps someone here has a
spare unit 360 or 440 mhz and of course 500 would work as well (:
otherwise we can all chip in $10 or smth a face and get one
from ebay as they do not seem to be too cheap these days...
cu
-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From marco  Thu Jun 23 11:16:22 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:16:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
Message-ID: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>

Hey all,

Sorry if this has been covered.  For some reason I am not coming across
a clear answer.  I am setting up a jail to run a slashcode server (lots
of ports need to be installed including mysql, apache, perl modules).  

I would like to install these ports in the jail.  Do I have to cvsup a
whole ports tree into the jail (thus having 2 ports trees, and gcc etc
in the jail) or can I use the host environment's ports tree and:

  make DESTDIR=/jails/192.168.1.12/usr/local/ install

Thought I would ask before making a mess of things especially the
dependencies.  

Thanks,

-- 
Marco




From george  Thu Jun 23 11:41:31 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:41:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623145620.GC30384@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
	<20050623145620.GC30384@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20050623154131.GB18299@ixeon.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:56:20AM -0400, Ray wrote:
>
>Swapping parts with spare hardware.

I'm looking for a more efficient test. Basically the motherboard or the
cpu is toast. if the motherboard is toast, I could put in an extra
333Mhz board/cpu and use the nice case for pci sata network storage. If
the cpu is bad, I'd be happy to drop in a new one. But given the cost
of a new bare bones system, I'm not interested in the time or expense
of trial and error. So, the nice case, board, cpu and power-supply is
basically sidewalk ware because one of the board or cpu is a little
flaky...

I don't know any software tools to identify the fault, but I imagine
they could exist...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From jbaltz  Thu Jun 23 11:56:13 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 11:56:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] actual BSD question: fbsd 5.4 on ultra10
In-Reply-To: <42BAC2B2.8090701@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <42BAC2B2.8090701@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <42BADB9D.5040802@3phasecomputing.com>

On 06/23/05 10:09 AM, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> I'm sorry if this is wholly obvious, but I'm having a bit of difficulty 
> here with my old U10.

I violated my primary rule of troubleshooting: "Is it plugged in?"

It turned out to be a flaky connection between the CD and the 
motherboard; I must have jostled it badly between yesterday (when I had 
other CDs in the drive) and this a.m. that moved the loose cable just 
*this* much looser.

ugh.

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.



From mspitzer  Thu Jun 23 12:04:03 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:04:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> Sorry if this has been covered.  For some reason I am not coming across
> a clear answer.  I am setting up a jail to run a slashcode server (lots
> of ports need to be installed including mysql, apache, perl modules).
> 
> I would like to install these ports in the jail.  Do I have to cvsup a
> whole ports tree into the jail (thus having 2 ports trees, and gcc etc
> in the jail) or can I use the host environment's ports tree and:

umm yes and no, in my experience.  Most ports will install from a pkg,
some won't.

> 
>   make DESTDIR=/jails/192.168.1.12/usr/local/ install

not sure how this would interacr with /var/db/pkg

> 
> Thought I would ask before making a mess of things especially the
> dependencies.

If you have a full os avalable in your jail then just install the
ports tree and make your packages and be done with it.  You can always
remove ports when you are done.

marc

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --
> Marco
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nomadlogic  Thu Jun 23 12:11:22 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:11:22 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/23/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Sorry if this has been covered.  For some reason I am not coming across
> > a clear answer.  I am setting up a jail to run a slashcode server (lots
> > of ports need to be installed including mysql, apache, perl modules).
> >
> > I would like to install these ports in the jail.  Do I have to cvsup a
> > whole ports tree into the jail (thus having 2 ports trees, and gcc etc
> > in the jail) or can I use the host environment's ports tree and:
> 
> umm yes and no, in my experience.  Most ports will install from a pkg,
> some won't.
> 
> >
> >   make DESTDIR=/jails/192.168.1.12/usr/local/ install
> 
> not sure how this would interacr with /var/db/pkg
> 
> >
> > Thought I would ask before making a mess of things especially the
> > dependencies.
> 
> If you have a full os avalable in your jail then just install the
> ports tree and make your packages and be done with it.  You can always
> remove ports when you are done.
> 

also, I would check out Dru's BSDHacks book.  There is a section in
there on installing a Port w/o a port tree which seems ideally suited
for a jail environment.  I think it's hack #82.

-pete


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From dlavigne6  Thu Jun 23 12:20:55 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:20:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, pete wright wrote:

>> If you have a full os avalable in your jail then just install the
>> ports tree and make your packages and be done with it.  You can always
>> remove ports when you are done.
>>
>
> also, I would check out Dru's BSDHacks book.  There is a section in
> there on installing a Port w/o a port tree which seems ideally suited
> for a jail environment.  I think it's hack #82.


Since that hack, I've discovered porteasy which I now prefer. I gave a 
how-to on keeping a system up-to-date with minimal stuff installed at 
meetBSD in Poland (sorry, didn't get into jails in this how-to). If NYCBUG 
is interested in hosting the PDF, I can send it for inclusion in the Library. 
Just tell me who to send the attachment to.

Dru



From george  Thu Jun 23 12:26:39 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:26:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>	<8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>	<57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <42BAE2BF.6030305@sddi.net>

Dru wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, pete wright wrote:
> 
>>> If you have a full os avalable in your jail then just install the
>>> ports tree and make your packages and be done with it.  You can always
>>> remove ports when you are done.
>>>
>>
>> also, I would check out Dru's BSDHacks book.  There is a section in
>> there on installing a Port w/o a port tree which seems ideally suited
>> for a jail environment.  I think it's hack #82.
> 
> 
> 
> Since that hack, I've discovered porteasy which I now prefer. I gave a 
> how-to on keeping a system up-to-date with minimal stuff installed at 
> meetBSD in Poland (sorry, didn't get into jails in this how-to). If 
> NYCBUG is interested in hosting the PDF, I can send it for inclusion in 
> the Library. Just tell me who to send the attachment to.

Sounds like another plug for the book. . . <g>

Use the submission form on the site, DL. . . it would be a great addition.

I myself have been playing with jails and ports alot recently, including 
portaudit, esp after this latest sudo vulnerability. . .  Porteasy will 
be delved into this afternoon. . .

There's a good number of other jail related stuff I've been thinking 
about/discussing with Ike, including some way to deal with striping down 
/dev in a methodical fashion. . . maybe even automated depending on 
pkgs/ports installed. . .

g



From marco  Thu Jun 23 12:27:04 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:27:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20050623162704.GU16275@foo.metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 12:20:55PM -0400, Dru wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, pete wright wrote:
>
>>>If you have a full os avalable in your jail then just install the
>>>ports tree and make your packages and be done with it.  You can always
>>>remove ports when you are done.
>>>
>>
>>also, I would check out Dru's BSDHacks book.  There is a section in
>>there on installing a Port w/o a port tree which seems ideally suited
>>for a jail environment.  I think it's hack #82.
>
>
>Since that hack, I've discovered porteasy which I now prefer. I gave a 
>how-to on keeping a system up-to-date with minimal stuff installed at 
>meetBSD in Poland (sorry, didn't get into jails in this how-to). If NYCBUG 
>is interested in hosting the PDF, I can send it for inclusion in the 
>Library. Just tell me who to send the attachment to.
>

Wow,  that sounds perfect Dru.  Installing porteasy right now.
The whole point of using ports was to keep the system up-to-date, even
the jails.

I think that the prefered method for getting docs into the library is to
use the submission form on the website then it gets put into the right
place for inclusion into the library, and everyone is happy.


Thanks,

-- 
Marco



From dlavigne6  Thu Jun 23 12:49:44 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:49:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <20050623162704.GU16275@foo.metm.org>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>
	<20050623162704.GU16275@foo.metm.org>
Message-ID: <20050623124701.K597@dru.domain.org>



On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Marco Scoffier wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 12:20:55PM -0400, Dru wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, pete wright wrote:
>>
>>>> If you have a full os avalable in your jail then just install the
>>>> ports tree and make your packages and be done with it.  You can always
>>>> remove ports when you are done.
>>>>
>>>
>>> also, I would check out Dru's BSDHacks book.  There is a section in
>>> there on installing a Port w/o a port tree which seems ideally suited
>>> for a jail environment.  I think it's hack #82.
>>
>>
>> Since that hack, I've discovered porteasy which I now prefer. I gave a
>> how-to on keeping a system up-to-date with minimal stuff installed at
>> meetBSD in Poland (sorry, didn't get into jails in this how-to). If NYCBUG
>> is interested in hosting the PDF, I can send it for inclusion in the
>> Library. Just tell me who to send the attachment to.
>>
>
> Wow,  that sounds perfect Dru.  Installing porteasy right now.
> The whole point of using ports was to keep the system up-to-date, even
> the jails.
>
> I think that the prefered method for getting docs into the library is to
> use the submission form on the website then it gets put into the right
> place for inclusion into the library, and everyone is happy.


Okay, submitted and waiting approval by the powers-that-be. The part 
you're interested in Marco starts at the bottom of page 9. It's really 
cool using portupgrade without the entire ports tree :-)

Dru



From marco  Thu Jun 23 12:57:42 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:57:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <20050623124701.K597@dru.domain.org>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c3050623090460f8ab1d@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d71000050623091113c369b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050623121758.T597@dru.domain.org>
	<20050623162704.GU16275@foo.metm.org>
	<20050623124701.K597@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20050623165742.GX16275@foo.metm.org>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 12:49:44PM -0400, Dru wrote:
>Okay, submitted and waiting approval by the powers-that-be. The part 
>you're interested in Marco starts at the bottom of page 9. It's really 
>cool using portupgrade without the entire ports tree :-)
>

You know I really want to thank you Dru, for all your articles.

I'm pretty new to the BSDs about a year or so, coming from several years
of linux.  And I hardly have to ask mailing lists for anything, 'cause
my questions are already clearly answered in so much great
documentation.  Just recently set up a subversion server using :

http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/05/12/FreeBSD_Basics.html

Didn't ask anyone.  Very clear.  And I am up and running.
What a relief :)


Thanks,

-- 
Marco



From driodeiros  Thu Jun 23 13:23:36 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:23:36 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20050623172336.GA16692@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:13:41AM -0400, Ray wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 10:50:45PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote:
> > I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine.
> 
> I would imagine a kernel module could be continuously scanning RAM, taking up RAM
> just like any normal program would, except that it never gets swapped out and
> it gets to choose exactly where in the memory space it will be allocated.

What about the memory part where the kernel is located?

> > Even if you could do it, you will have to modify the memtest code to send
> > you the results via (smtp, http, etc...) something tough considering 
> > (I am not sure) memtest is written in assembly.
> 
> Even if memtest were written completely in assembly (which I'm doubtful of)
> you can still call C functions in assembly.  Just like in the kernel.

Perhaps not all is written in assembly but probably an important part.
Specially those parts that the program use more often, in order to 
improve performance.

> Or instead of doing that, you could add a sysctl and change its value whenever
> anything is found.

Sorry I don't get that. Sysctl? You don't have the OS running underneath
your program. Umm... I don't see what you mean.

> > Regarding to the CPU, pretty much the same.... Well... you can actually
> > run programs like cpuburn but those are going to put your CPU to 0%
> > idle. Something you don't want in a production server.
> 
> nice(1).

Ok.. that will work. 
But now that you said that, I have another question: Imagine that 
you have a program that it is very I/O consuming. If you renice 
that program, you are going to ensure that program is not going 
to eat all your CPU. What about the I/O requests? Is there any
way to renice them?

> > Besides cpuburn has to run a couple of days at least in order to
> > verify that the CPU is going to work fine over extreme.
> 
> Your production servers don't run for over a couple of days?

I meant, you have to put your cpu under heavy load for a decent 
number of hours to verify that it does not have heating issues.
How much time? I don't know. I said 2 days at least... 

David



From driodeiros  Thu Jun 23 13:34:30 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:34:30 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <20050623173430.GB16692@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:42:45AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:13:41AM -0400, Ray wrote:
> >On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 10:50:45PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote:
> >> I cannot see how to test the memory without rebooting the machine.
> 
> recompile a kernel 20 times and pipe stderr/stdout to a file,
> compare files sizes... pretty darn effective, for a running machine

This method will test most of the machine's hardware but you are
not testing ALL the memory. Am I right?

> >> Regarding to the CPU, pretty much the same.... Well... you can actually
> >> run programs like cpuburn but those are going to put your CPU to 0%
> >> idle. Something you don't want in a production server.
> >
> >nice(1).
> 
> and you may well learn the burden continuous context switching puts on
> your machine...

Oh yes.. 

> So how can I test/salvage? My guess is it's the south bridge, but short
> of investing $30 in Artic silver glue to see if the problem goes away
> (which I doubt because that chip doesn't really get hot), I'm not sure
> how to tell, ditto for the cpu, don't want to replace if it's not broke
> and that's got a nice new fan on it... so what is broke? and how can I
> tell?
> 
> (I don't expect a useful answer here...)

Ok. :)



From ike  Thu Jun 23 13:44:36 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:44:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] newbie: ports into a jail
In-Reply-To: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
References: <20050623151622.GQ16275@foo.metm.org>
Message-ID: <241bfed76ebc0116b0795d59d6f36a66@lesmuug.org>

Hi Marco, All,

I just thought I'd throw out ONE STIFF WARNING regarding ports in jails.

On Jun 23, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Marco Scoffier wrote:

>
>   make DESTDIR=/jails/192.168.1.12/usr/local/ install
>
> Thought I would ask before making a mess of things especially the
> dependencies.


It is bad practice to install *anything*, portage or otherwise in a 
jail, from the host system.

It is good practice to install ports or otherwise from within the jail 
itself.

--
Due to library dependancies, various links in the system, etc, you can 
very quickly make horrific messes for yourself doing this.  It is 
important to install ports/software while logged into the jailed system 
itself, and really treat a jail like an individual server.

If this is a space issue, (keeping the ports tree via cvsup etc...), 
it's simple enough to just delete /usr/ports once your finished 
upgrading the packages.

--
This is where the ideas using nullfs come into play, mounting read-only 
/path/to/jaildir/usr/ports from a single copy elsewhere, but currently 
nullfs is broken (and therefore generally not trusted) in FreeBSD 5.x.

Best,
.ike




From driodeiros  Thu Jun 23 13:39:10 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:39:10 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623154131.GB18299@ixeon.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
	<20050623145620.GC30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623154131.GB18299@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <20050623173910.GC16692@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 11:41:31AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:56:20AM -0400, Ray wrote:
> >
> >Swapping parts with spare hardware.
> 
> I'm looking for a more efficient test. Basically the motherboard or the
> cpu is toast. if the motherboard is toast, I could put in an extra
> 333Mhz board/cpu and use the nice case for pci sata network storage. If
> the cpu is bad, I'd be happy to drop in a new one. But given the cost
> of a new bare bones system, I'm not interested in the time or expense
> of trial and error. So, the nice case, board, cpu and power-supply is
> basically sidewalk ware because one of the board or cpu is a little
> flaky...
> I don't know any software tools to identify the fault, but I imagine
> they could exist...

What about the software that came with the motherboard? 

David



From george  Thu Jun 23 14:13:17 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:13:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623173910.GC16692@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050623141341.GB30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623144245.GA18299@ixeon.local>
	<20050623145620.GC30384@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050623154131.GB18299@ixeon.local>
	<20050623173910.GC16692@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <20050623181317.GA18657@ixeon.local>

On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:39:10AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 11:41:31AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 10:56:20AM -0400, Ray wrote:
>> >
>> >Swapping parts with spare hardware.
>> 
>> I'm looking for a more efficient test. Basically the motherboard or the
>> cpu is toast. if the motherboard is toast, I could put in an extra
>> 333Mhz board/cpu and use the nice case for pci sata network storage. If
>> the cpu is bad, I'd be happy to drop in a new one. But given the cost
>> of a new bare bones system, I'm not interested in the time or expense
>> of trial and error. So, the nice case, board, cpu and power-supply is
>> basically sidewalk ware because one of the board or cpu is a little
>> flaky...
>> I don't know any software tools to identify the fault, but I imagine
>> they could exist...
>
>What about the software that came with the motherboard? 

Humm, I never break the seal on that stuff but I do save... maybe I
should check if there is HW diagnostic on it, sure don't want to install
windows to find out, I thought those disks never boot on their own...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From nomadlogic  Thu Jun 23 15:45:26 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:45:26 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
Message-ID: <57d710000506231245254433ad@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,
     Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).

-pete
-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From rick  Thu Jun 23 15:50:37 2005
From: rick (Rick Aliwalas)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:50:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <57d710000506231245254433ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000506231245254433ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.63.0506231547270.30653@corvo.oakview2.trilegiant.com>

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, pete wright wrote:

> Hey all,
>     Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
> to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
> Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).

This timeline is really cool.  Has BSD in the context of the entire
unix family.  Doesn't include appliances though...

 	http://www.levenez.com/unix/

-rick

>
> -pete
> -- 
> ~~o0OO0o~~
> Pete Wright
> www.nycbug.org
> NYC's *BSD User Group
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>



From ike  Thu Jun 23 15:50:47 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:50:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <57d710000506231245254433ad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000506231245254433ad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3feaa7e2b173c65d734fba8fd9c82d41@lesmuug.org>

Wordup Pete, All,

On Jun 23, 2005, at 3:45 PM, pete wright wrote:

> Hey all,
>      Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
> to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
> Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).
>
> -pete

I know of one, the Levenez family tree is a classic- he's been 
maintaining it for years:

http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html

(he also makes printable versions available :)

Rocket-
.ike




From nomadlogic  Thu Jun 23 15:56:24 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:56:24 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <3feaa7e2b173c65d734fba8fd9c82d41@lesmuug.org>
References: <57d710000506231245254433ad@mail.gmail.com>
	<3feaa7e2b173c65d734fba8fd9c82d41@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <57d71000050623125643803853@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> Wordup Pete, All,
> 
> On Jun 23, 2005, at 3:45 PM, pete wright wrote:
> 
> > Hey all,
> >      Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
> > to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
> > Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).
> >
> > -pete
> 
> I know of one, the Levenez family tree is a classic- he's been
> maintaining it for years:
> 
> http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html
> 
> (he also makes printable versions available :)
> 
> Rocket-
> .ike
> 
> 

thanks guy's, i think i've checked this out in the past.  i guess i
was more interested in what types of network
applicances/switches/routers that BSD has morphed into.  I suppose due
to the nature of the license, it's kinda hard to track this stuff.

-p
-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From mickey  Thu Jun 23 15:46:54 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:46:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <57d71000050623125643803853@mail.gmail.com> from pete wright at
	"Jun 23, 2005 12:56:24 pm"
Message-ID: <200506231946.j5NJksox018844@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from pete wright:
[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> On 6/23/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> > Wordup Pete, All,
> > 
> > On Jun 23, 2005, at 3:45 PM, pete wright wrote:
> > 
> > > Hey all,
> > >      Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
> > > to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
> > > Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).
> > >
> > > -pete
> > 
> > I know of one, the Levenez family tree is a classic- he's been
> > maintaining it for years:
> > 
> > http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html
> > 
> > (he also makes printable versions available :)
> > 
> > Rocket-
> > .ike
> > 
> > 
> 
> thanks guy's, i think i've checked this out in the past.  i guess i
> was more interested in what types of network
> applicances/switches/routers that BSD has morphed into.  I suppose due
> to the nature of the license, it's kinda hard to track this stuff.

not because of the license but because of the vendors.

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From nomadlogic  Thu Jun 23 16:30:04 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:30:04 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <200506231946.j5NJksox018844@lucifier.net>
References: <57d71000050623125643803853@mail.gmail.com>
	<200506231946.j5NJksox018844@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000506231330c60f173@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from pete wright:
> [Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > On 6/23/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
> > > Wordup Pete, All,
> > >
> > > On Jun 23, 2005, at 3:45 PM, pete wright wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey all,
> > > >      Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
> > > > to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
> > > > Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).
> > > >
> > > > -pete
> > >
> > > I know of one, the Levenez family tree is a classic- he's been
> > > maintaining it for years:
> > >
> > > http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html
> > >
> > > (he also makes printable versions available :)
> > >
> > > Rocket-
> > > .ike
> > >
> > >
> >
> > thanks guy's, i think i've checked this out in the past.  i guess i
> > was more interested in what types of network
> > applicances/switches/routers that BSD has morphed into.  I suppose due
> > to the nature of the license, it's kinda hard to track this stuff.
> 
> not because of the license but because of the vendors.
> 

yea good point, i guess i was being a pesimist assuming that vendors
will act poorly when allowed to which is more of an issue with them
not the license itself.

-pete


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From ike  Thu Jun 23 16:40:04 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:40:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] soekris order
In-Reply-To: <c0e453dc090dda8f38ab9a1bc43a7917@lesmuug.org>
References: <45e3deb43206be90773b9c0337779350@lesmuug.org>
	<20050618195330.GE1036@ixeon.local>
	<c0e453dc090dda8f38ab9a1bc43a7917@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <ae883398012477d789011cba5f265805@lesmuug.org>

Hey all,

Just thought I'd shout out with a last call- Tonight 9pm EST - batching 
a Soekris order.

So far only GG and I are in for ordering Soekris, not enough of an 
order to make batching worth it...

Hit the list by 9pm EST tonight if your in, else this batch is off 
until next time.

Rocket-
.ike




From george  Thu Jun 23 21:41:58 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:41:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Family Tree
In-Reply-To: <57d710000506231330c60f173@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d71000050623125643803853@mail.gmail.com>	<200506231946.j5NJksox018844@lucifier.net>
	<57d710000506231330c60f173@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42BB64E6.5040202@sddi.net>

pete wright wrote:
> On 6/23/05, Michael Shalayeff <mickey at lucifier.net> wrote:
> 
>>Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from pete wright:
>>[Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
>>
>>>On 6/23/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Wordup Pete, All,
>>>>
>>>>On Jun 23, 2005, at 3:45 PM, pete wright wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hey all,
>>>>>     Does anyone know of a BSD Unix family tree?  I'd just be curious
>>>>>to see how many OS's out there are based on the original BSD OS (like
>>>>>Solaris, Netapp's DataOnTap OS etc..).
>>>>>
>>>>>-pete
>>>>
>>>>I know of one, the Levenez family tree is a classic- he's been
>>>>maintaining it for years:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html
>>>>
>>>>(he also makes printable versions available :)
>>>>
>>>>Rocket-
>>>>.ike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>thanks guy's, i think i've checked this out in the past.  i guess i
>>>was more interested in what types of network
>>>applicances/switches/routers that BSD has morphed into.  I suppose due
>>>to the nature of the license, it's kinda hard to track this stuff.
>>
>>not because of the license but because of the vendors.
>>
> 
> 
> yea good point, i guess i was being a pesimist assuming that vendors
> will act poorly when allowed to which is more of an issue with them
> not the license itself.

To assemble such a list would be an enormous task.

There are a good number of hardcore engineers around. . . a handful on 
our list, but obviously, that type of industry in more west than east 
coast, so we're not exactly in the position to initiate among members.

It might be nice to start another database, like dmesgd and bsdtracker, 
that accumulated 'bsd-based products', which someone from a firm could 
add to. . . I just wonder if any would respond.

It's funny, we've all had the "snap server, nokia (although moving 
away), juniper" discussion. . .

g



From george  Thu Jun 23 23:24:06 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:24:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] network diversity
Message-ID: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>

Here's a couple of articles on regarding network diversity.

http://networking.itmanagersjournal.com/networking/05/06/22/170205.shtml?tid=32

http://software.itmanagersjournal.com/software/05/06/07/180209.shtml?tid=26

There was a nice debate at USENIX ATC in Boston last year about this. . 
.someone from MS (against diversity) and another guy for diversity.  I 
only caught part of the debate, but there's a lot of biology metaphors 
recurring with every argument.  I think there was also something at HOPE 
last summer on the topic.

It's a solid argument, I think, to say that diversity is better with 
networks, as specific vulnerabilities only effect certain parts of the 
network, and are less capable of replication based on uniformity.  But 
of course, all our love for open standards does potentially open the 
door to problems in this arena.

It also depends on *what* you're running, and how it's being admin'd. 
An unpatched BSD environment is much safer than a patched MS environment.

And no one is going to argue for a Sendmail, Exim, Exchange environment, 
but it does make sense to move to diversity in say, an Exchange 
environment but adding a Unix mail gateway, as so many firms do.

And when it comes to desktops, you obviously can't have diversity 
between them, but rather within them, meaning not going the whole MS 
suite from Office to IE, and not various desktop OSs and configuration.

Other thoughts on this?

I need to dig up the other talks on this. . .

George



From bob  Fri Jun 24 02:05:14 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:05:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] network diversity
In-Reply-To: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
References: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <BA19502A-BDAB-4729-B7B6-912FAE272483@redivi.com>

On Jun 23, 2005, at 11:24 PM, George R. wrote:

> Here's a couple of articles on regarding network diversity.
>
> http://networking.itmanagersjournal.com/networking/ 
> 05/06/22/170205.shtml?tid=32
>
> http://software.itmanagersjournal.com/software/ 
> 05/06/07/180209.shtml?tid=26
>
> There was a nice debate at USENIX ATC in Boston last year about  
> this. . .someone from MS (against diversity) and another guy for  
> diversity.  I only caught part of the debate, but there's a lot of  
> biology metaphors recurring with every argument.  I think there was  
> also something at HOPE last summer on the topic.
>
> It's a solid argument, I think, to say that diversity is better  
> with networks, as specific vulnerabilities only effect certain  
> parts of the network, and are less capable of replication based on  
> uniformity.  But of course, all our love for open standards does  
> potentially open the door to problems in this arena.

Well it's not the open standards that are the problem.  Standards  
don't have security flaws, software does :)

Also, it's interesting to consider that OpenBSD's love of entropy  
(and all of the re-invented wheels) probably makes it quite a bit  
more diverse than other platforms.

-bob




From mspitzer  Fri Jun 24 02:49:19 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:49:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] network diversity
In-Reply-To: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
References: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305062323491a2351d9@mail.gmail.com>

did not read those articles yet, I have read others in the past.  Will
read later

On 6/23/05, George R. <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> And when it comes to desktops, you obviously can't have diversity
> between them, but rather within them, meaning not going the whole MS
> suite from Office to IE, and not various desktop OSs and configuration.

I don't know if I agree, training costs money and time lost from work
also costs money.  The real question is is it cheaper to take the hit
every now and again, office gets herpes and dies, or to have lots of
ongoing costs training people up to speed in multiple office suites? 
Once you get out of the most basic tasks all of them do things
differently/ put stuff under different menus etc.  And you have to be
able to exchange docs as well, a whole different pain in the neck.

marc



> 
> Other thoughts on this?
> 
> I need to dig up the other talks on this. . .
> 
> George
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Fri Jun 24 08:14:23 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:14:23 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>

I'm setting up the FreeBSD with pkgsrc... but the bootstrap failed, can
you make sense of this?

....
( cd libedit; make )
sh makelist -h ./common.c > common.h
sh makelist -h ./emacs.c > emacs.h
sh makelist -h ./vi.c > vi.h
sh makelist -fh vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.h
sh makelist -fc vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.c
sh makelist -bc ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.c
sh makelist -bh ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.h
gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
In file included from chared.c:36:
./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
/usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
/usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp/libedit.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp.
===> exited with status 1
aborted.


All I've done is....

cd /usr/
cvs -d anoncvs at anoncvs.us.netbsd.org:/cvsroot co pkgsrc
set PATH=/usr/pkg/bin:$PATH
export PATH
cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap
./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkg --prefix=/usr/pkg


// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From nomadlogic  Fri Jun 24 11:40:08 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:40:08 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] network diversity
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c305062323491a2351d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
	<8c50a3c305062323491a2351d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d7100005062408404c33e078@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/23/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> did not read those articles yet, I have read others in the past.  Will
> read later
> 
> On 6/23/05, George R. <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> > And when it comes to desktops, you obviously can't have diversity
> > between them, but rather within them, meaning not going the whole MS
> > suite from Office to IE, and not various desktop OSs and configuration.
> 
> I don't know if I agree, training costs money and time lost from work
> also costs money.  The real question is is it cheaper to take the hit
> every now and again, office gets herpes and dies, or to have lots of
> ongoing costs training people up to speed in multiple office suites?
> Once you get out of the most basic tasks all of them do things
> differently/ put stuff under different menus etc.  And you have to be
> able to exchange docs as well, a whole different pain in the neck.
> 

I agree the desktop thing is pretty tricky.  I think the real issue is
in how most large org's deploy end user systems.  Does every
secretary/data-entry/accountant need a full blown desktop system? 
Where we onto something back in the day of terminals attached to large
mainframes for most business users (or atleast thin clients)?  I think
a configuration like that is closer to a homogeneous environment than
keeping everyone on the same rev. of Office/IE, in fact giving each
user a standalone environment like seems to be the current practice
would be closer to a *heterogeneous* environment IMO.

-p


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From nomadlogic  Fri Jun 24 11:41:43 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:41:43 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> I'm setting up the FreeBSD with pkgsrc... but the bootstrap failed, can
> you make sense of this?
> 
> ....
> ( cd libedit; make )
> sh makelist -h ./common.c > common.h
> sh makelist -h ./emacs.c > emacs.h
> sh makelist -h ./vi.c > vi.h
> sh makelist -fh vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.h
> sh makelist -fc vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.c
> sh makelist -bc ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.c
> sh makelist -bh ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.h
> gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
> In file included from chared.c:36:
> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
> *** Error code 1
> 
> Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp/libedit.
> *** Error code 1
> 
> Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp.
> ===> exited with status 1
> aborted.
> 
> 
> All I've done is....
> 
> cd /usr/
> cvs -d anoncvs at anoncvs.us.netbsd.org:/cvsroot co pkgsrc
> set PATH=/usr/pkg/bin:$PATH
> export PATH
> cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap
> ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkg --prefix=/usr/pkg
> 
> 

It's been a while, but should build.sh take care of building the
bootstrap envrionment?  or is that only used after you've build the
pkgsrc toolchain?

-p

-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From george  Fri Jun 24 12:18:18 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 12:18:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 08:41:43AM -0700, pete wright wrote:
>On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
>> I'm setting up the FreeBSD with pkgsrc... but the bootstrap failed, can
>> you make sense of this?
>> 
>> ....
>> ( cd libedit; make )
>> sh makelist -h ./common.c > common.h
>> sh makelist -h ./emacs.c > emacs.h
>> sh makelist -h ./vi.c > vi.h
>> sh makelist -fh vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.h
>> sh makelist -fc vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.c
>> sh makelist -bc ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.c
>> sh makelist -bh ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.h
>> gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
>> In file included from chared.c:36:
>> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
>> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
>> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
>> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
>> *** Error code 1
>> 
>> Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp/libedit.
>> *** Error code 1
>> 
>> Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp.
>> ===> exited with status 1
>> aborted.
>> 
>> 
>> All I've done is....
>> 
>> cd /usr/
>> cvs -d anoncvs at anoncvs.us.netbsd.org:/cvsroot co pkgsrc
>> set PATH=/usr/pkg/bin:$PATH
>> export PATH
>> cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap
>> ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkg --prefix=/usr/pkg
>> 
>> 
>
>It's been a while, but should build.sh take care of building the
>bootstrap envrionment?  or is that only used after you've build the
>pkgsrc toolchain?

Maybe it was but per the README, ./bootstrap seems the way now days.

# ls /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/
CVS             README.IRIX     README.OpenBSD  files           testbootstrap
README          README.Interix  README.Solaris  mkbinarykit     ufsdiskimage
README.AIX      README.Linux    bmake           mkbootstrapkit
README.Darwin   README.MacOSX   bootstrap       mods
README.FreeBSD  README.OSF1     cleanup         pkg.sh

README.FreeBSD doesn't give me any more clues... I just subscribed to
some pkgsrc lists...  I post there soon...

// George



-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From mspitzer  Fri Jun 24 13:52:15 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:52:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30506241052c390c24@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 08:41:43AM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> >On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> >> I'm setting up the FreeBSD with pkgsrc... but the bootstrap failed, can
> >> you make sense of this?
> >>
> >> ....
> >> ( cd libedit; make )
> >> sh makelist -h ./common.c > common.h
> >> sh makelist -h ./emacs.c > emacs.h
> >> sh makelist -h ./vi.c > vi.h
> >> sh makelist -fh vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.h
> >> sh makelist -fc vi.h emacs.h common.h > fcns.c
> >> sh makelist -bc ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.c
> >> sh makelist -bh ./vi.c ./emacs.c ./common.c > help.h
> >> gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
> >> In file included from chared.c:36:
> >> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
> >> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
> >> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
> >> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
> >> *** Error code 1
> >>
> >> Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp/libedit.
> >> *** Error code 1
> >>
> >> Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp.
> >> ===> exited with status 1
> >> aborted.
> >>
> >>
> >> All I've done is....
> >>
> >> cd /usr/
> >> cvs -d anoncvs at anoncvs.us.netbsd.org:/cvsroot co pkgsrc
> >> set PATH=/usr/pkg/bin:$PATH
> >> export PATH
> >> cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap
> >> ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkg --prefix=/usr/pkg
> >>
> >>
> >
> >It's been a while, but should build.sh take care of building the
> >bootstrap envrionment?  or is that only used after you've build the
> >pkgsrc toolchain?
> 
> Maybe it was but per the README, ./bootstrap seems the way now days.
> 
> # ls /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/
> CVS             README.IRIX     README.OpenBSD  files           testbootstrap
> README          README.Interix  README.Solaris  mkbinarykit     ufsdiskimage
> README.AIX      README.Linux    bmake           mkbootstrapkit
> README.Darwin   README.MacOSX   bootstrap       mods
> README.FreeBSD  README.OSF1     cleanup         pkg.sh
> 
> README.FreeBSD doesn't give me any more clues... I just subscribed to
> some pkgsrc lists...  I post there soon...
> 
> // George
> 

try ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkgsrc 

marc

ps why not just use ports?

> 
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nycbug  Fri Jun 24 14:32:14 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:32:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] network diversity
In-Reply-To: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
References: <42BB7CD6.7040804@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20050624183213.GA24673@syntax.cyth.net>

Diversity is good, but keeping up-to-date is even more important.
If you are running a diverse farm of servers/desktops and they're
not all kept secure, that just gives an attacker multiple entry
points.



From george  Fri Jun 24 17:17:31 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:17:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506241052c390c24@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
	<8c50a3c30506241052c390c24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050624211731.GA20205@ixeon.local>

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:52:15PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>> >On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
>> >> I'm setting up the FreeBSD with pkgsrc... but the bootstrap failed, can
>> >> you make sense of this?
>> >>
>
>try ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkgsrc 

right! I miss read the instructions I was using...
but still....

cd /usr/
cvs -d anoncvs at anoncvs.us.netbsd.org:/cvsroot co pkgsrc
set PATH=/usr/pkgsrc/bin:$PATH
export PATH
cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap
./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkgsrc --prefix=/usr/pkgsrc
cp work/mk.conf.example /etc/mk.conf


# cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp && make distclean && ./configure 
...
# make
( cd libedit; make )
gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
In file included from chared.c:36:
./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
/usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
/usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp/libedit.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap/work/tnftp.


I don't know why this doesn't work.....

if ! HAVE_DIRNAME
char    *dirname(char *);
#endif


But this "patch" fixed it for me...

> diff -du /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h.orig  /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h
--- /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h.orig    Fri Jun 10 01:06:25 2005
+++ /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h Fri Jun 24 17:04:46 2005
@@ -313,7 +313,7 @@
 #endif
 
 #if ! HAVE_DIRNAME
-char   *dirname(char *);
+/* char        *dirname(char *); */
 #endif
 
 #if ! HAVE_ERR


context: this is a FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE base install.

>ps why not just use ports?

I like the OS portable nature of pkgsrc.

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From mspitzer  Fri Jun 24 18:04:47 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:04:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20050624211731.GA20205@ixeon.local>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
	<8c50a3c30506241052c390c24@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624211731.GA20205@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305062415041bacff74@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:52:15PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> >> >On 6/24/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> >> >> I'm setting up the FreeBSD with pkgsrc... but the bootstrap failed, can
> >> >> you make sense of this?
> >> >>
> >
> >try ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkgsrc
> 
> right! I miss read the instructions I was using...
> but still....
> 
> cd /usr/
> cvs -d anoncvs at anoncvs.us.netbsd.org:/cvsroot co pkgsrc
> set PATH=/usr/pkgsrc/bin:$PATH
> export PATH

do not need the PATH mods above as far as I know

> cd /usr/pkgsrc/bootstrap
> ./bootstrap --pkgdbdir=/var/db/pkgsrc --prefix=/usr/pkgsrc

--prefix is not where the pkgsrc tree is it where the compiled
packages go, defaults to /usr/pkg


> cp work/mk.conf.example /etc/mk.conf

Read README 
> context: this is a FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE base install.
> 
> >ps why not just use ports?
> 
> I like the OS portable nature of pkgsrc.

ok

marc

> 
> // George
> 
> 
> --
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From jdev  Fri Jun 24 18:46:42 2005
From: jdev (Jed Davis)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:46:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: pkgsrc on FreeBSD
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
	<8c50a3c30506241052c390c24@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624211731.GA20205@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <d9i2gi$7h7$1@sea.gmane.org>

In article <20050624211731.GA20205 at ixeon.local>,
George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
> In file included from chared.c:36:
> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
[]
> But this "patch" fixed it for me...
> 
> > diff -du /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h.orig  /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h
> --- /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h.orig    Fri Jun 10 01:06:25 2005
> +++ /usr/pkgsrc/net/tnftp/files/tnftp.h Fri Jun 24 17:04:46 2005
> @@ -313,7 +313,7 @@
>  #endif
>  
>  #if ! HAVE_DIRNAME
> -char   *dirname(char *);
> +/* char        *dirname(char *); */
>  #endif
>  
>  #if ! HAVE_ERR

This looks a lot like something I saw on tech-pkg at netbsd a couple weeks
ago, in the context of OS X: the configure script was expecting dirname
to be defined in libgen.{a,so,dylib,whatever} or not be present at all;
instead it was defined in libc and declared in libgen.h, with results
pretty much like the above.  I don't recall what happened to it as far a
committed fix, though.

-- 
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l))))))  (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k)))))))    '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))




From driodeiros  Fri Jun 24 19:31:02 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:31:02 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<57d7100005062408412fb4d55a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
Message-ID: <20050624233102.GA20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 12:18:18PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> README.FreeBSD doesn't give me any more clues... I just subscribed to
> some pkgsrc lists...  I post there soon...

Let us know if you find the problem.
In the meantime, perhaps you are interested on these:

http://w8n.koeln.ccc.de/media/video/21c3/098%20Portable%20Software-Installation%20with%20pkg%20source.avi

http://www.feyrer.de/Texts/Own/21c3-pkgsrc-slides.pdf

http://www.feyrer.de/Texts/Own/21c3-pkgsrc-paper.pdf 

It is not going to bring you anything new but I thought you may be
interested on.

David



From driodeiros  Fri Jun 24 19:34:07 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 16:34:07 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
Message-ID: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

Hi,

Is there anyone out there using gmail to send emails to mailing lists? 
Have you noticed that gmail does not forward/keep the emails that you send 
to the list? It is a very annoying problem that I would like to fix. 
Anyone knows how to fix it?

Thanks



From scottro  Sat Jun 25 13:28:01 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:28:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD perl upgrade
Message-ID: <20050625172801.GA38197@mail.scottro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Most of you probably already know that perl has once again been updated.

However, there is now a perl-after-upgrade script.  It worked almost
flawlessly for me on three different boxes, the only issue being
SpamAssassin, (which might have been because it was running as I ran the
script.)  

So, this perl update is far easier than the last one.


TOTALLY UNRELATED NOTE:

If anyone wants a pair of size 9-1/2 K2 Catalyst skates let me know
offlist.  


The wheels and bearings are aging, but it's free to a good home.  You'd
have to pick tehm up in Mahattan, Hell's Kitchen area
- -- 

Scott Robbins

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

(In response to being asked to fight a troll) 
Spike: I would, but I'm paralyzed with not caring very much. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFCvZQh+lTVdes0Z9YRAn65AJsFV7CUIMbntFX2nHumPKRCKxre/QCdG4lv
M3VZB2yK5Y8ERDVmYYUvZe0=
=0pNz
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From lists  Sat Jun 25 14:19:54 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:19:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>


> Is there anyone out there using gmail to send emails to mailing lists?
> Have you noticed that gmail does not forward/keep the emails that you send
> to the list? It is a very annoying problem that I would like to fix.
> Anyone knows how to fix it?

I contacted Google about this.  It's a feature that they won't change.  How did I fix it?  I don't use Gmail anymore - use Yahoo

H





From runfreebsd  Sat Jun 25 23:44:38 2005
From: runfreebsd (Bill Schoolcraft)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:44:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD-5.4/amd64 and "psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED]"
Message-ID: <20050626034438.39857.qmail@web52507.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello Family,

I'm hoping that somebody has seen this before.  Here is just the basics

(A) FreeBSD-5.4/x86 and the mouse works fine.

(B) FreeBSD-5.4/amd64 and the mouse does not work at all.

I have this mouse working on both machines (actually 4 machines) via a
KVM switch.

Machine (B) is triple booted too and the mouse works fine in SuSE-9.3
and Windows-XP on the same box so I'm sure the KVM connection is good.

To make a long story short, I've done all the troubleshooting stuff
that one would do, I'm not the oldest BSD hacker but have been using
FreeBSD since the early 4.x releases.

Here is the output relative to "psm0" in verbose mode, I have NO idea
what the "GIANT-LOCKED" means.

#######################

[root at liam ~]-> dmesg|grep psm0

psm0: current command byte:0047
psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> flags 0x1002 irq 12 on atkbdc0
psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED]
psm0: model IntelliMouse Explorer, device ID 4-00, 5 buttons
psm0: config:00001002, flags:00000008, packet size:4
psm0: syncmask:08, syncbits:00

#######################

I finally got a bit of movement out of the mouse in KDE by adding the
flag to /boot/device.hints that said:

hint.psm.0.flags="0x1002"

I saw the work for a Dell Latitude before with a Dell unique id.

And that was a (semi) wild guess but throughout the (verbose) dmesg I
saw the following attached to alot of the items on the bus...


found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x5950, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x5a3f, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x437a, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4379, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4374, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4375, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4373, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4372, revid=0x04
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4376, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4377, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4371, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4370, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1022, dev=0x1100, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1022, dev=0x1101, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1022, dev=0x1102, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1022, dev=0x1103, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x5954, revid=0x00
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x1229, revid=0x02
found-> vendor=0x10ec, dev=0x8139, revid=0x10
found-> vendor=0x1106, dev=0x3044, revid=0x80

Sorry for the long post but I was sooooooooo stoked to have FreeBSD
running on my first 64-bit box that it was sad moment when I could not
get the mouse to work but it worked on the same triple-booted box with
WinXP(pro)/64 + SuSE-9.3/64 .  

Which made me gag.

Thanks for any consideration in posting back to me.





		
__________________________________ 
Discover Yahoo! 
Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! 
http://discover.yahoo.com/



From chsnyder  Sun Jun 26 10:58:24 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:58:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <b762526905062607584ec2f94e@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/25/05, Hans Zaunere <lists at zaunere.com> wrote:

> I contacted Google about this.  It's a feature that they won't change.  

What was the "feature," Hans? 

The reason I ask is that for some lists (eg talk at nyphp.org), I see
copies of my messages, whereas for others I don't. And when we were
experimenting with Clew, I would see my outgoing *and* the bounce back
from the mailer.



From lists  Sun Jun 26 11:01:26 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:01:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <20050626110044.H88593@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, David Rio Deiros wrote:

> Rergarding to the Hard drives, you have the SMART feature that
> comes with all the hard drives nowadays


Anyone happens to know what program/port can look into the SMART status of 
a HD?



From klimenta  Sun Jun 26 11:16:59 2005
From: klimenta (Kliment Andreev)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:16:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050626110044.H88593@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050626110044.H88593@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <42BEC6EB.6050709@runbox.com>

Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, David Rio Deiros wrote:
> 
>> Rergarding to the Hard drives, you have the SMART feature that
>> comes with all the hard drives nowadays
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone happens to know what program/port can look into the SMART status 
> of a HD?


Check http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/





From nycbug  Sun Jun 26 12:28:44 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:28:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] regular hardware troubleshooting/monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20050626110044.H88593@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <42BA499B.2000800@sddi.net>
	<20050623055045.GA1838@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<20050626110044.H88593@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20050626162843.GA8770@syntax.cyth.net>

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:01:26AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, David Rio Deiros wrote:
> >Rergarding to the Hard drives, you have the SMART feature that
> >comes with all the hard drives nowadays
> 
> Anyone happens to know what program/port can look into the SMART status of 
> a HD?

atactl(8)



From driodeiros  Sun Jun 26 13:12:41 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:12:41 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 02:19:54PM -0400, Hans Zaunere wrote:
> 
> > Is there anyone out there using gmail to send emails to mailing lists?
> > Have you noticed that gmail does not forward/keep the emails that you send
> > to the list? It is a very annoying problem that I would like to fix.
> > Anyone knows how to fix it?
> 
> I contacted Google about this.  It's a feature that they won't change.  How did I fix it?  I don't use Gmail anymore - use Yahoo

What I like about gmail is that I have pop/imap access to my mailbox.




From lists  Sun Jun 26 13:14:21 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:14:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <b762526905062607584ec2f94e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1Dmai70S25-0004xK@mrelay.perfora.net>


> > I contacted Google about this.  It's a feature that they won't change.
> 
> What was the "feature," Hans?
> 
> The reason I ask is that for some lists (eg talk at nyphp.org), I see
> copies of my messages, whereas for others I don't. And when we were
> experimenting with Clew, I would see my outgoing *and* the bounce back
> from the mailer.

That's a good question.  It's more a broken implementation of no-dupe on the email client side than anything else.  I've seen the same behavior, where some lists you'll get a copy of the message and in some cases you won't.

For whatever reason, they're trying to filter dupes that result in sending from a gmail account.  It probably throws the ad words statistics off...


H





From lists  Sun Jun 26 13:37:54 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:37:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <0MKz1m-1Dmb4t3SDZ-00053Z@mrelay.perfora.net>


> > > Is there anyone out there using gmail to send emails to mailing lists?
> > > Have you noticed that gmail does not forward/keep the emails that you send
> > > to the list? It is a very annoying problem that I would like to fix.
> > > Anyone knows how to fix it?
> >
> > I contacted Google about this.  It's a feature that they won't change.  How did I
> fix it?  I don't use Gmail anymore - use Yahoo
> 
> What I like about gmail is that I have pop/imap access to my mailbox.

IMAP?  I'm pretty sure Gmail only supports POP, which Yahoo supports as well.

H





From dlavigne6  Sun Jun 26 13:46:13 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:46:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading Perl
Message-ID: <20050626134526.J556@dru.domain.org>


http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7285

The blog also contains the URL to the script author's website. He has some 
interesting Perl scripts dealing with jails and ports...

Dru



From george  Sun Jun 26 15:26:57 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:26:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <d9i2gi$7h7$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <20050624121423.GA19422@ixeon.local>
	<20050624161818.GA20103@ixeon.local>
	<8c50a3c30506241052c390c24@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050624211731.GA20205@ixeon.local> <d9i2gi$7h7$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20050626192657.GC5863@sta.local>

On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 10:46:42PM +0000, Jed Davis wrote:
>In article <20050624211731.GA20205 at ixeon.local>,
>George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
>> gcc -g -O2 -I. -I./.. -I. -I.. -I./../libedit  -I./../libnetbsd -c chared.c
>> In file included from chared.c:36:
>> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
>> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
>> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
>> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
>[]
>
>This looks a lot like something I saw on tech-pkg at netbsd a couple weeks
>ago, in the context of OS X: the configure script was expecting dirname
>to be defined in libgen.{a,so,dylib,whatever} or not be present at all;
>instead it was defined in libc and declared in libgen.h, with results
>pretty much like the above.  I don't recall what happened to it as far a
>committed fix, though.

That sounds like more details on the same problem. Thanks, I was really
concerned that I was missing something when bootstrap wouldn't complete
on a virgin FreeBSD 4.5! ;-)

A patch has been committed and it worked on my last attempt...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Sun Jun 26 15:30:32 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:30:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pkgsrc on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0506250937360.2844-100000@pilchuck.reedmedia.net>
References: <20050624211731.GA20205@ixeon.local>
	<Pine.LNX.4.43.0506250937360.2844-100000@pilchuck.reedmedia.net>
Message-ID: <20050626193031.GD5863@sta.local>

On Sat, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:38:54AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, George Georgalis wrote:
>
>> set PATH=/usr/pkgsrc/bin:$PATH
>
>Use /usr/pkg instead of /usr/pkgsrc and set --prefix to /usr/pkg also.

Thanks, this was my first attempt, and hopefully last mistake! ;-)

>> ./../tnftp.h:316: error: conflicting types for 'dirname'
>> /usr/include/libgen.h:39: error: previous declaration of 'dirname' was here
>
>A fix was committed for this. Can you update your pkgsrc and try again?

Worked perfect after the update. Thanks much!

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From dlavigne6  Sun Jun 26 15:59:44 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] meetbsd
Message-ID: <20050626155927.A556@dru.domain.org>


http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7286

More social than technical...

Dru



From george  Sun Jun 26 17:22:58 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:22:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PROMPT_COMMAND in zsh?
Message-ID: <20050626212258.GA7157@sta.local>

I'm trying to find a "bash PROMPT_COMMAND" equivalant for zsh,
eg in bash I use...

# If this is an xterm set the title to user at host:dir
case $TERM in
  xterm*)
    PROMPT_COMMAND='echo -ne "\033]0;${USER}@${HOSTNAME}: ${PWD}\007"'
    ;;
  *)
    ;;
esac


in my bashrc ...which is handy, is there a way in zsh?

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Sun Jun 26 20:05:08 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:05:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PROMPT_COMMAND in zsh?
In-Reply-To: <20050626212258.GA7157@sta.local>
References: <20050626212258.GA7157@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050627000508.GA8280@sta.local>

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 05:22:58PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
>I'm trying to find a "bash PROMPT_COMMAND" equivalant for zsh,

then answers own question...

zsh uses functions...

# If this is an xterm set the title to user at host:dir
case $TERM in
  xterm*)
        chpwd () { echo -en "\033]0;$(print -P "$USER@%m:%~")\007" ;} # oddly %h expands like %!
    ;;
  *)
    ;;
esac


maybe there is a way to make print work like echo -en, or to have print
-P properly expand %h, but I'm not sure...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From scottro  Sun Jun 26 22:06:49 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:06:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PROMPT_COMMAND in zsh?
In-Reply-To: <20050626212258.GA7157@sta.local>
References: <20050626212258.GA7157@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050627020649.GA11927@mail.scottro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 05:22:58PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> I'm trying to find a "bash PROMPT_COMMAND" equivalant for zsh,
> eg in bash I use...
> 
> # If this is an xterm set the title to user at host:dir
> case $TERM in
>   xterm*)
>     PROMPT_COMMAND='echo -ne "\033]0;${USER}@${HOSTNAME}: ${PWD}\007"'
>     ;;
>   *)
>     ;;

> esac
> 
> 
> in my bashrc ...which is handy, is there a way in zsh?


I just do a PS1 in my .zshrc.  Of course, the first time I ran the man
page, I misunderstood and my prompt looked like

${PWD}%

Ooops.

Anyway, I have a page that goes into it.

http://www.qnd-guides.org/qnd-prompt.html

There's a few differences in syntax, and to be even nicer I tell ya
where to go in the man page to find it.  :)


- -- 

Scott Robbins

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Giles: I need you to take Spike for a few days. 
Xander: What? 
Spike: What? 
Anya: What? 
Spike: I'm not stayin' with him. 
Giles: I have a friend who's coming to town, and I'd like us to 
be alone. 
Anya: Oh, you mean an orgasm friend? 
Giles: Yes, that's exactly the most appalling thing you could 
have said. 

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From mspitzer  Sun Jun 26 23:55:33 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:55:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
References: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30506262055244e1a95@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/05, David Rio Deiros <driodeiros at gmail.com> wrote:
> What I like about gmail is that I have pop/imap access to my mailbox.
> 

when did they add Imap?  Some of what you can d o with labels would
not be possible with imaps folder structure, as far as I know anyway. 
What I am talking about is having multpile tags applied to one
message, in imap you could only put in one folder(tag) and not link it
somewhere else.  I think you could copy it to a second folder, but
then you have 2 copies of message x.

I am asking because I like imap.

marc



From driodeiros  Mon Jun 27 02:23:30 2005
From: driodeiros (David Rio Deiros)
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:23:30 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506262055244e1a95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<8c50a3c30506262055244e1a95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050627062330.GA23728@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:55:33PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On 6/26/05, David Rio Deiros <driodeiros at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What I like about gmail is that I have pop/imap access to my mailbox.
> > 
> 
> when did they add Imap?  Some of what you can d o with labels would
> not be possible with imaps folder structure, as far as I know anyway. 
> What I am talking about is having multpile tags applied to one
> message, in imap you could only put in one folder(tag) and not link it
> somewhere else.  I think you could copy it to a second folder, but
> then you have 2 copies of message x.
> 
> I am asking because I like imap.

Sorry.. they don't offer imap just pop. 

Do they(yahoo) offer pop with the regular mail package (the
one you don't have to pay anything). I couldn't see it. Actually 
I tried to connect to the pop server but I got -Error logging in.
Apparently they only offer pop access with the Mail plus.

Marc, do you get a copy of the emails that you send to this list or
any other mailing list? Because I am not and it is really annoying.



From nycbug  Mon Jun 27 09:19:31 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:19:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30506262055244e1a95@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<8c50a3c30506262055244e1a95@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050627131931.GC32722@syntax.cyth.net>

On Sun, Jun 26, 2005 at 11:55:33PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On 6/26/05, David Rio Deiros <driodeiros at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What I like about gmail is that I have pop/imap access to my mailbox.
> 
> when did they add Imap?  Some of what you can d o with labels would
> not be possible with imaps folder structure, as far as I know anyway. 
> What I am talking about is having multpile tags applied to one
> message, in imap you could only put in one folder(tag) and not link it
> somewhere else.  I think you could copy it to a second folder, but
> then you have 2 copies of message x.

They could create hard links instead of copies.

-Ray-



From mspitzer  Mon Jun 27 09:34:44 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:34:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail issues
In-Reply-To: <20050627062330.GA23728@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
References: <20050624233407.GB20000@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<0MKz1m-1DmFFy1rPp-0004ed@mrelay.perfora.net>
	<20050626171241.GA22742@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
	<8c50a3c30506262055244e1a95@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050627062330.GA23728@david-rio-deiros-mac-mini.local>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c305062706345b13b134@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/05, David Rio Deiros <driodeiros at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Marc, do you get a copy of the emails that you send to this list or
> any other mailing list? Because I am not and it is really annoying.

I see only one copy.

marc

> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From jhlists  Mon Jun 27 22:11:00 2005
From: jhlists (jh)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:11:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Unkosher Mac file request
Message-ID: <42C0B1B4.3000106@hirschman.net>

Hi,

I'm hoping that someone here takes pity on me :) or really, my friend 
with the basket case Mac.

I'm trying to get a friend's aging Mac (iMac w/ 10.3.7 on it) working... 
but I've hit a wall. His OS disks are scratched; his original hard drive 
crapped (recovered it via dd_rescue onto a spare IDE drive I had), his 
Installer is corrupt. End of the line...

Can anyone shoot me a copy of Installer that might work on this box? 
He's rather cash strapped at the moment, and this seems to be all that 
is sitting between him and a reconstituted Mac.

Offline response, please.

Thanks.

jh



From george  Mon Jun 27 22:49:59 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 22:49:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Unkosher Mac file request
In-Reply-To: <42C0B1B4.3000106@hirschman.net>
References: <42C0B1B4.3000106@hirschman.net>
Message-ID: <42C0BAD7.3030106@sddi.net>

jh wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm hoping that someone here takes pity on me :) or really, my friend 
> with the basket case Mac.
> 
> I'm trying to get a friend's aging Mac (iMac w/ 10.3.7 on it) working... 
> but I've hit a wall. His OS disks are scratched; his original hard drive 
> crapped (recovered it via dd_rescue onto a spare IDE drive I had), his 
> Installer is corrupt. End of the line...
> 
> Can anyone shoot me a copy of Installer that might work on this box? 
> He's rather cash strapped at the moment, and this seems to be all that 
> is sitting between him and a reconstituted Mac.
> 
> Offline response, please.


First, it's completely inappropriate to make this request to a public 
list. . .

Second, this list is focused on BSD Unix, and really only deals with OS 
X land tangentally. . .

if they're scratched, see if Apple will send replacements, but this type 
of request is the WRONG place for this. . .

Or you can try FBSD 6.0 for macppc.

g




From jhlists  Mon Jun 27 23:10:17 2005
From: jhlists (jh)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:10:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Unkosher Mac file request
In-Reply-To: <42C0BAD7.3030106@sddi.net>
References: <42C0B1B4.3000106@hirschman.net> <42C0BAD7.3030106@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <42C0BF99.2010700@hirschman.net>

George R. wrote:


> Second, this list is focused on BSD Unix, and really only deals with OS 
> X land tangentally. . .

Since a lot of folks using Macs on this list, and since I'm on this list
for FreeBSD stuffs, and since Apple allows you to download the
Installer.app (in archived format), it didn't seem all that harmful.

That being said, so as to be kosher, I can get what I want from Apple -
as disk image/.pkg file. So...

Can someone here give me the correct command line to extract the
contents of arbitrary cpio/pax archive (Apple uses BSD .pkg to
distribute software, apparently). That'd probably get me what I need -
and I think is BSD related, no? Went through the man page, didn't seem
very clear to me.

Thanks.

jh





From bob  Mon Jun 27 23:52:24 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:52:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Unkosher Mac file request
In-Reply-To: <42C0BF99.2010700@hirschman.net>
References: <42C0B1B4.3000106@hirschman.net> <42C0BAD7.3030106@sddi.net>
	<42C0BF99.2010700@hirschman.net>
Message-ID: <5CB1F4FA-9CBC-4BED-A9B7-361E69683763@redivi.com>


On Jun 27, 2005, at 11:10 PM, jh wrote:

> George R. wrote:
>
>
>
>> Second, this list is focused on BSD Unix, and really only deals  
>> with OS X land tangentally. . .
>>
>
> Since a lot of folks using Macs on this list, and since I'm on this  
> list
> for FreeBSD stuffs, and since Apple allows you to download the
> Installer.app (in archived format), it didn't seem all that harmful.
>
> That being said, so as to be kosher, I can get what I want from  
> Apple -
> as disk image/.pkg file. So...
>
> Can someone here give me the correct command line to extract the
> contents of arbitrary cpio/pax archive (Apple uses BSD .pkg to
> distribute software, apparently). That'd probably get me what I need -
> and I think is BSD related, no? Went through the man page, didn't seem
> very clear to me.

No, they have absolutely nothing to do with BSD .pkg files.. they're  
descendants of NeXT .pkg bundles.

This will extract a .pkg to the current directory
pax -rzf Foo.pkg/Contents/Archive.pax.gz

There is a CLI version of Install.app, which may or may not work  
depending on how hosed his system is: man 8 installer

I find it hard to believe that your Mac-using friend doesn't have  
another Mac-using friend with a Mac OS X DVD lying around, though :)

-bob




From george  Tue Jun 28 16:19:19 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:19:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
Message-ID: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>

Anybody got a screen window manager config (termcap settings) for using
a Mac keyboard? or maybe there are regular settings I can adjust?

Every time I want backspace in screen I get delete....

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From spork  Tue Jun 28 16:23:16 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:23:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone using Pentium-D?
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281617540.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Hey all,

I'm really bad at keeping up on all the processor news out there.  It took 
Apple's x86 announcement for me to find out about Intel's dual-core chips 
(pentium-d).  Other than the glossies on the intel site, has anyone here 
toyed with these things?

I've been shopping for some low-end dual processor stuff (used) in the 
neighborhood of dual PIII-1GHz.  Is the D based on P4 or PIII?  Is it a 
lemon, a stopgap, or a cost-efficient way to get dual processors without 
going to Xeons?

Any input is appreciated, I'm not up to speed on the latest and greatest 
(or lamest).

Thanks,

Charles

___
Charles Sprickman
NetEng/SysAdmin
Bway.net - New York's Best Internet - www.bway.net
spork at bway.net - 212.655.9344




From nycbug  Tue Jun 28 17:02:06 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:02:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 04:19:19PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> Anybody got a screen window manager config (termcap settings) for using
> a Mac keyboard? or maybe there are regular settings I can adjust?
> 
> Every time I want backspace in screen I get delete....

At work we type:

$ stty erase ^?

More of a workaround than a fix, but I hope it helps.

-Ray-



From ike  Tue Jun 28 17:39:35 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:39:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Unkosher Mac file request
In-Reply-To: <42C0BF99.2010700@hirschman.net>
References: <42C0B1B4.3000106@hirschman.net> <42C0BAD7.3030106@sddi.net>
	<42C0BF99.2010700@hirschman.net>
Message-ID: <C213C4B2-7D7C-49EC-B32A-EBEBAEAF7490@lesmuug.org>

Hi JH,

On Jun 27, 2005, at 10:11 PM, jh wrote:
>
> I'm trying to get a friend's aging Mac (iMac w/ 10.3.7 on it)  
> working... but I've hit a wall. His OS disks are scratched;

Call apple and see if they'll replace them- they very well may do it  
cheap.

> his original hard drive crapped (recovered it via dd_rescue onto a  
> spare IDE drive I had), his Installer is corrupt. End of the line...
>
> Can anyone shoot me a copy of Installer that might work on this  
> box? He's rather cash strapped at the moment, and this seems to be  
> all that is sitting between him and a reconstituted Mac.


If it's a copy of OSX you'r looking for, you'll need to buy it.  It's  
cheap, and at the end of the day, it constitutes a relationship with  
Apple- on their terms- for how you get to use their OS.  If you like  
the OS, you need to pay to use it (around $100 every 20 months or so  
isn't so bad, really).
If you don't like the terms, you have plenty of other options, you  
can very well install the fledgling FreeBSD 6.0, (now, quietly/ 
ironically supporting PPC!), OpenBSD-ppc, or NetBSD-ppc, or straight  
Darwin (Straight Darwin will be able to mount the HFS+ volumes from  
the old mac):

http://openbsd.org/macppc.html
http://netbsd.org/Ports/macppc/
http://opendarwin.org/en/news/darwin801.html


On Jun 27, 2005, at 11:10 PM, jh wrote:

> George R. wrote:
>> Second, this list is focused on BSD Unix, and really only deals  
>> with OS X land tangentally. . .
>>
>
> Since a lot of folks using Macs on this list, and since I'm on this  
> list
> for FreeBSD stuffs, and since Apple allows you to download the
> Installer.app (in archived format), it didn't seem all that harmful.

I'm not too knowledgeable of the details, but Apple is VERY clear  
about the terms of their downloads, even their Open Source software,  
code under the Apple Public Source License (APSL) cannot be  
redistributed except from Apple without written permission to do so.

If what you are looking for is indeed distributed for free by Apple,  
you'll find it at:

http://developer.apple.com

Or- if it's Darwin related, you'll find it at:

http://opendarwin.org


> That being said, so as to be kosher, I can get what I want from  
> Apple -
> as disk image/.pkg file. So...
>
> Can someone here give me the correct command line to extract the
> contents of arbitrary cpio/pax archive (Apple uses BSD .pkg to
> distribute software, apparently). That'd probably get me what I need -
> and I think is BSD related, no? Went through the man page, didn't seem
> very clear to me.

pax is the utility you are looking for- but as Bob said, apple .pkg  
files, and BSD .pkg files are different altogether.

>
> Thanks.
>
> jh

Best,
.ike





From george  Tue Jun 28 18:18:50 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:18:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Ray wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 04:19:19PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
>> Anybody got a screen window manager config (termcap settings) for using
>> a Mac keyboard? or maybe there are regular settings I can adjust?
>> 
>> Every time I want backspace in screen I get delete....
>
>At work we type:
>
>$ stty erase ^?

that C-v C-{delete} didn't work for me
but teminal -> window settings -> keyboard "Delete key sends backspace" works :)

now to auto copy when I highlight with mouse, and map shift-eject to insert...
...and auto raise/focus windows on mouse over...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From spork  Tue Jun 28 18:41:08 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281840440.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, George Georgalis wrote:

> now to auto copy when I highlight with mouse, and map shift-eject to insert...
> ...and auto raise/focus windows on mouse over...

http://iterm.sf.net/

> // George
>
>
> -- 
> George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
> http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From nycbug  Tue Jun 28 19:23:12 2005
From: nycbug (Ray)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:23:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050628232312.GA12787@syntax.cyth.net>

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:18:50PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Ray wrote:
> >On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 04:19:19PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> >> Anybody got a screen window manager config (termcap settings) for using
> >> a Mac keyboard? or maybe there are regular settings I can adjust?
> >> 
> >> Every time I want backspace in screen I get delete....
> >
> >At work we type:
> >
> >$ stty erase ^?
> 
> that C-v C-{delete} didn't work for me
> but teminal -> window settings -> keyboard "Delete key sends backspace" works :)

Actually you didn't need to do C-v C-{delete}, you could have just
typed `stty erase <backspace>'.  But whatever, you got it working.
=)

-Ray-



From ike  Tue Jun 28 19:55:25 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:55:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] swap some cat6?
Message-ID: <AA0D8109-5EB5-4905-81F7-D5FABCC20912@lesmuug.org>

Hey all,

I'm wondering if anyone on list would like to swap some raw cat6  
patch cable?

I've got a roll of yellow colored cat6, and I'm trying to save myself  
some headaches by color-coordinating 2 networks that exist in the  
same closet.

I'd be happy to swap 100 or 200 ft. of cat6 at the next NYC*BUG  
meeting- (mine is not plenum rated, and not the stiff stuff either-  
so it's great for making ethernet patch cables).

Rocket-
.ike





From tillman  Tue Jun 28 21:33:17 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:33:17 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281840440.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281840440.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20050629013317.GF25327@seekingfire.com>

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:41:08PM -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> http://iterm.sf.net/

I'd like to like iTerm, but it's handling of the Alt key is wrong and
there doesn't seem to be an easy way to configure it  (irssi users will
know what I'm talking about). I've settled on using regular xterms
(which I've been using for over a decade anyway) and just gritting my
teeth at the Apple-tab bug in Tiger.

A solution to either the Apple-tab bug or the Alt key handing in iTerm
(Esc-# doesn't count) would be greatly appreciated :-)

-T


-- 
Too much knowledge never makes for simple decisions.
	- Crown Prince Raphael Corrino, Discourses on Leadership



From george  Wed Jun 29 01:18:34 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:18:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050628232312.GA12787@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
	<20050628232312.GA12787@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20050629051834.GA13998@sta.local>

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 07:23:12PM -0400, Ray wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:18:50PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Ray wrote:
>> >On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 04:19:19PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
>> >> Anybody got a screen window manager config (termcap settings) for using
>> >> a Mac keyboard? or maybe there are regular settings I can adjust?
>> >> 
>> >> Every time I want backspace in screen I get delete....
>> >
>> >At work we type:
>> >
>> >$ stty erase ^?
>> 
>> that C-v C-{delete} didn't work for me
>> but teminal -> window settings -> keyboard "Delete key sends backspace" works :)
>
>Actually you didn't need to do C-v C-{delete}, you could have just
>typed `stty erase <backspace>'.  But whatever, you got it working.
>=)

Well until I tried using a man on the mac, can't "erase" in less...

then it occured to me, I need the stty command _within_ the screen program,
and that fixed it, until I figure out a 'right' way. :) thanks.

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Wed Jun 29 01:41:00 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:41:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050629013317.GF25327@seekingfire.com>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281840440.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<20050629013317.GF25327@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <20050629054100.GA14150@sta.local>

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 07:33:17PM -0600, Tillman Hodgson wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:41:08PM -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>> http://iterm.sf.net/
>
>I'd like to like iTerm, but it's handling of the Alt key is wrong and
>there doesn't seem to be an easy way to configure it  (irssi users will
>know what I'm talking about). I've settled on using regular xterms
>(which I've been using for over a decade anyway) and just gritting my
>teeth at the Apple-tab bug in Tiger.
>
>A solution to either the Apple-tab bug or the Alt key handing in iTerm
>(Esc-# doesn't count) would be greatly appreciated :-)

I'll keep all that in mind... I normally use a script with some 20 xterm
options before it exec-s the binary (which is kinda what I wanted anyway
:).

What is the apple-tab bug about?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From tillman  Wed Jun 29 13:47:25 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:47:25 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050629054100.GA14150@sta.local>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281840440.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<20050629013317.GF25327@seekingfire.com>
	<20050629054100.GA14150@sta.local>
Message-ID: <20050629174725.GG25327@seekingfire.com>

On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 01:41:00AM -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 07:33:17PM -0600, Tillman Hodgson wrote:
> >On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:41:08PM -0400, Charles Sprickman wrote:
> >> http://iterm.sf.net/
> >
> >I'd like to like iTerm, but it's handling of the Alt key is wrong and
> >there doesn't seem to be an easy way to configure it  (irssi users will
> >know what I'm talking about). I've settled on using regular xterms
> >(which I've been using for over a decade anyway) and just gritting my
> >teeth at the Apple-tab bug in Tiger.
> >
> >A solution to either the Apple-tab bug or the Alt key handing in iTerm
> >(Esc-# doesn't count) would be greatly appreciated :-)
> 
> I'll keep all that in mind... I normally use a script with some 20 xterm
> options before it exec-s the binary (which is kinda what I wanted anyway
> :).
> 
> What is the apple-tab bug about?

In Tiger, when you use Apple-tab to switch tasks you need to do so twice
in a row for X11 apps. Otherwise, they get focus but aren't raised to
the top of the window stack. Clicking on the X11 icon in the Dock works
properly, though. It's mostly annoying when I want to cut n' paste from
Safari into an xterm -- highlight in Safari, Apple-c. Apple-tab to the
X11 task, Apple-tab to the X11-task a second time to raise it, then I
paste it. Ugh.

I tried iTerm again this morning -- Fn-PageUp and PageDn don't work in
irssi either. That makes my scrollback buffer somewhat difficult to use.

An Aqua-ized xterm, functionally unchanged from the original, would rock
:-)

-T


-- 
In a corrupt age, when prayers are not answered, that itself is the answer.
	Muso Kokushi



From spork  Wed Jun 29 13:54:00 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] screen configs for mac
In-Reply-To: <20050629174725.GG25327@seekingfire.com>
References: <20050628201919.GA7795@sta.local>
	<20050628210205.GA17337@syntax.cyth.net>
	<20050628221850.GF7795@sta.local>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0506281840440.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<20050629013317.GF25327@seekingfire.com>
	<20050629054100.GA14150@sta.local>
	<20050629174725.GG25327@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0506291352160.19717@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Tillman Hodgson wrote:

> I tried iTerm again this morning -- Fn-PageUp and PageDn don't work in
> irssi either. That makes my scrollback buffer somewhat difficult to use.

Odd. I don't do irc, but I do use silc, which I believe is built with 
irssi, and a plain "pg-up" and "pg-down" will work as one would expect 
them to.

I'm also quite fond of the "open URL in browser" feature.  Of course I 
also need my virtual desktops and being able to drag terminals to other 
desktop, so I run CodeTek's VD as well.

C

> -T
>
>
> -- 
> In a corrupt age, when prayers are not answered, that itself is the answer.
> 	Muso Kokushi
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Thu Jun 30 15:59:56 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:59:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] For sale - Exabyte Model VXA-2, best reasonable offer
Message-ID: <20050630195956.GA7018@sta.local>

For sale - best reasonable offer (min to be determined)
Exabyte tape dirive, Model VXA-2
SCSI-Ultra II, LVD/SE, 12mb/sec transfer rate
Capicity 160G compressed / 80G native
unit retail $1047.00
New condition, but no box, or cables, never used, from a
http://penguincomputing.com Relion 2200 Server

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator Linux BSD IXOYE
http://galis.org/george/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From matt  Thu Jun 30 17:17:59 2005
From: matt (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:17:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
Message-ID: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>

Hi all,

The past two weeks have been rough for me.  I've had our production mail 
server, FreeBSD 5.4, and our back end LDAP servers crashing.  I've tried 
everything, from upgrading to 5.4-STABLE, and now switching from IPF to PF 
(which actually has made them not crash).

Problem is, even if these boxes now stay up for a month, I don't know if I 
can trust my FreeBSD 5.4 boxes and sleep well at night (at least not 
these).  I think in order to satisfy my boss as well (he wants to switch 
to Debian which I'm struggling to aim away from for a high traffic mail 
server), I need to switch OS's to something that I know will be stable so 
we can get our new LDAP implementation in place and I can move on to other 
projects.....

My debate right now is FreeBSD 4.11 or OpenBSD 3.7.  As an avid and long 
time FreeBSD user, my recent install of OpenBSD seemed to go smoothly. 
Problem is, we use adaptec raid, and OpenBSD recently lost support for 
that, but apparently a simple kernel rebuild can do the trick.  Also, 
people have told me that, although the SMP code is more stable on OpenBSD 
(some responses have told me that the reason my FreeBSD installs seem to 
keep kernel trapping HARD (they lock up) is because of unstable SMP code 
in 5.x), it isn't used as efficiently.

Therefore .... what do you all think?  Our setup, to recap, is like this:

Orion ---> Mail server, dual 3.06 ghz xeon, 4 GB DDR 2100 Kingston, LDAP.
Uranus --> LDAP server, dual 850 MHZ PIII, 2 GB DDR, regular PAM.
Caliban -> LDAP server, dual 850 MHZ PIII, 2 GB DDR, regular PAM.

Thanks :)

-Matt



From nomadlogic  Thu Jun 30 17:28:51 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:28:51 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
In-Reply-To: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
References: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000506301428f41525d@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/30/05, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> The past two weeks have been rough for me.  I've had our production mail
> server, FreeBSD 5.4, and our back end LDAP servers crashing.  I've tried
> everything, from upgrading to 5.4-STABLE, and now switching from IPF to PF
> (which actually has made them not crash).
> 
> Problem is, even if these boxes now stay up for a month, I don't know if I
> can trust my FreeBSD 5.4 boxes and sleep well at night (at least not
> these).  I think in order to satisfy my boss as well (he wants to switch
> to Debian which I'm struggling to aim away from for a high traffic mail
> server), I need to switch OS's to something that I know will be stable so
> we can get our new LDAP implementation in place and I can move on to other
> projects.....
> 
> My debate right now is FreeBSD 4.11 or OpenBSD 3.7.  As an avid and long
> time FreeBSD user, my recent install of OpenBSD seemed to go smoothly.
> Problem is, we use adaptec raid, and OpenBSD recently lost support for
> that, but apparently a simple kernel rebuild can do the trick.  Also,
> people have told me that, although the SMP code is more stable on OpenBSD
> (some responses have told me that the reason my FreeBSD installs seem to
> keep kernel trapping HARD (they lock up) is because of unstable SMP code
> in 5.x), it isn't used as efficiently.
> 
> Therefore .... what do you all think?  Our setup, to recap, is like this:
> 
> Orion ---> Mail server, dual 3.06 ghz xeon, 4 GB DDR 2100 Kingston, LDAP.
> Uranus --> LDAP server, dual 850 MHZ PIII, 2 GB DDR, regular PAM.
> Caliban -> LDAP server, dual 850 MHZ PIII, 2 GB DDR, regular PAM.
> 

couple issues I would ask before deciding to move to another OS all
together.  what where your previous production systems running?  are
you able to roll back to them until you can isolate and resolve your
issues with 5.x?  did you run into these problems on this hardware
before rolling them over to production?  you are positive it is not a
hardware issue?

now that the obligatory questions are out of the way :)  so what was
causing the systems to lock up?  not to doubt your troubleshooting but
I've seen a fair amount of people switch platforms midstream due to
hard to pin down problems only to find it is a (mis)configuration
issue or faulty hardware.

-p


-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From matt  Thu Jun 30 17:32:54 2005
From: matt (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:32:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] great meeting..
In-Reply-To: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1117736692.11120.57.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20050630173241.J66383@neptune.atopia.net>

I'm actually going to try to make a meeting sometime SOON!  Haven't made 
one since the Christmas party!

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Joshua S. Freeman wrote:

> I just want to express my appreciation to George for emceeing/hosting an
> excellent meeting and stammtisch last night featuring Phillip Moore.  It
> was TOTALLY worth the effort of getting there from way out in the
> Bronx..
>
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joshua
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>
> !DSPAM:429f4f0b200733373676884!
>



From matt  Thu Jun 30 17:48:52 2005
From: matt (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:48:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
In-Reply-To: <57d710000506301428f41525d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
	<57d710000506301428f41525d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050630174344.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>

> couple issues I would ask before deciding to move to another OS all
> together.  what where your previous production systems running?  are
> you able to roll back to them until you can isolate and resolve your
> issues with 5.x?  did you run into these problems on this hardware
> before rolling them over to production?  you are positive it is not a
> hardware issue?

This is our first setup of FreeBSD 5.4.  We had one FreeBSD machine before 
this "three server setup" which was done at the same time.  All of them 
continue to crash constantly, with kernel traps, but I can't debug because 
they lock up.

The only difference between these three machines and the other FreeBSD 
machine is that these run SMP.  They are also; however, much more high 
trafficked than the other machine, so that could be an issue also (I have 
no idea whether or not flooding the other machine with a bunch of mail 
traffic, etc. would cause it to crash).

I am fairly certain it isn't a hardware issue.  We have replaced the RAM 
with new RAM, and its happening constantly on two different boxes, with 
two different hardware setups completely.  Makes me think it isn't the 
hardware.


> now that the obligatory questions are out of the way :)  so what was
> causing the systems to lock up?  not to doubt your troubleshooting but
> I've seen a fair amount of people switch platforms midstream due to
> hard to pin down problems only to find it is a (mis)configuration
> issue or faulty hardware.

There's no way to tell.  I've been all over the mailing lists, and some 
committers have sent me patches without a backtrace, which makes me think 
they know the general gist of the problem.  Some people think its the 
ttwakeup bug, others think its the way FreeBSD is handling SMP.  Either 
way, I really need a stable solution....



From matt  Thu Jun 30 19:15:25 2005
From: matt (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:15:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <42A84F10.9050200@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050609094139.X20116@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A84F10.9050200@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <20050630191144.K68756@neptune.atopia.net>


> Perhaps it's time to start nycbug-freelancers :-)


I didn't want to post this to the full list because it contains an idea, 
not really a reply.... but I did, so please don't read anymore if what I'm 
doing violates the rules of this list....

Anyway...

I have bsdjobs.net .... the layout is there but the programming isn't 
(yet).  I'm trying to get it done by the end of the Summer.  The site will 
be 110% free, and I currently have a mailing list of about 5 people who, 
at the time of me creating it, were very interested.

The name is good, and I have three categories setup: part time, full time, 
and contractor.  You can check out the site to see what it will do.

This might be a good way to get some more business into the BSD Community. 
I haven't done much of an open source anything, but I'd be willing to turn 
the domain over to NYCBUG and make it a NYCBUG-based project, or whatever 
I'd have to do to get the site rolling and jobs posted .... maybe a resume 
setup, etc. could help too....

Opinions?

-Matt



From jpb  Thu Jun 30 19:50:13 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:50:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
In-Reply-To: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
References: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <20050630235013.GA24847@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> [2005-06-30 17:18]:
> Hi all,
> 
> The past two weeks have been rough for me.  I've had our production mail 
> server, FreeBSD 5.4, and our back end LDAP servers crashing.  I've tried 
> everything, from upgrading to 5.4-STABLE, and now switching from IPF to PF 
> (which actually has made them not crash).
> 
> Problem is, even if these boxes now stay up for a month, I don't know if I 
> can trust my FreeBSD 5.4 boxes and sleep well at night (at least not 
> these).  I think in order to satisfy my boss as well (he wants to switch 
> to Debian which I'm struggling to aim away from for a high traffic mail 
> server), I need to switch OS's to something that I know will be stable so 
> we can get our new LDAP implementation in place and I can move on to other 
> projects.....
> 
> My debate right now is FreeBSD 4.11 or OpenBSD 3.7.  As an avid and long 
> time FreeBSD user, my recent install of OpenBSD seemed to go smoothly. 
> Problem is, we use adaptec raid, and OpenBSD recently lost support for 
> that, but apparently a simple kernel rebuild can do the trick.  Also, 
> people have told me that, although the SMP code is more stable on OpenBSD 
> (some responses have told me that the reason my FreeBSD installs seem to 
> keep kernel trapping HARD (they lock up) is because of unstable SMP code 
> in 5.x), it isn't used as efficiently.
> 
> Therefore .... what do you all think?  Our setup, to recap, is like this:
> 
> Orion ---> Mail server, dual 3.06 ghz xeon, 4 GB DDR 2100 Kingston, LDAP.
> Uranus --> LDAP server, dual 850 MHZ PIII, 2 GB DDR, regular PAM.
> Caliban -> LDAP server, dual 850 MHZ PIII, 2 GB DDR, regular PAM.
> 
> Thanks :)
> 
> -Matt

Have you tried a recompile for single processor only?

A couple more questions- 

 - is every item in your config on the supported hardware list?
 - did you previously run this hardware on 4.11?

I remember seeing at least one benchmark that indicated that
OpenBSD performed poorly (not a perjorative use of this term-
I'm an OBSD fan), so if you need the speed, FreeBSD or NetBSD
are the way to go.

My tool sense,
Jim B.



From o_sleep  Thu Jun 30 19:53:00 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:53:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
In-Reply-To: <20050630174344.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
References: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
	<57d710000506301428f41525d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050630174344.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <CCB01090-72D0-40F5-B422-7CAFC09E4837@belovedarctos.com>

Matt,

On Jun 30, 2005, at 5:48 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> I am fairly certain it isn't a hardware issue.  We have replaced  
> the RAM with new RAM, and its happening constantly on two different  
> boxes, with two different hardware setups completely.  Makes me  
> think it isn't the hardware.

What kind of hardware is it? If it's a vendor built machine, have you  
tried running the diag tests from the vendor?  Our machines are  
pretty much dell, which you can either install the diag tests on a  
partition or make three floppy boot disks (unfortunately no cd, as of  
yet).

Have you tried running http://www.memtest86.com ?

When you said it's SMP, is it Hyperthreaded?  I doubt it would be  
causing the crashes, but you could try disabling that to see if it  
helps.

-Bjorn



From matt  Thu Jun 30 20:22:43 2005
From: matt (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:22:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
In-Reply-To: <CCB01090-72D0-40F5-B422-7CAFC09E4837@belovedarctos.com>
References: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
	<57d710000506301428f41525d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050630174344.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>
	<CCB01090-72D0-40F5-B422-7CAFC09E4837@belovedarctos.com>
Message-ID: <20050630202218.P69972@neptune.atopia.net>

> Have you tried running http://www.memtest86.com ?

Yep.


> When you said it's SMP, is it Hyperthreaded?  I doubt it would be causing the 
> crashes, but you could try disabling that to see if it helps.


Hyperthreadig was one of the first things I tried :)

Thanks for your response.  I'll get my dmesg posted when I get home.

-Matt



From lists  Thu Jun 30 21:09:49 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:09:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Getting started in Consulting
In-Reply-To: <20050630191144.K68756@neptune.atopia.net>
References: <cdb2c1f3050608103149649a3f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20050609094139.X20116@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<42A84F10.9050200@3phasecomputing.com>
	<20050630191144.K68756@neptune.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <20050630210715.J67127@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> I have bsdjobs.net

I think the idea is good, but the issue is getting it done.
A list is a quick way to get things going.. and a site would be more for 
posting jobs, resumes.. whereas the list would be to discuss the trade.

As it is the jobs list is good for posting jobs.

I don't want to discourage the project, but most endeavours I have seen 
along the lines of "let's make a job site" for xyz opensource don't go 
very far because of lack of time of the people pushing it.



From dcasey  Thu Jun 30 21:56:26 2005
From: dcasey (Dan Casey)
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:56:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [OT] FreeBSD 5.4 crashing?
In-Reply-To: <20050630202218.P69972@neptune.atopia.net>
References: <20050630171245.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>	<57d710000506301428f41525d@mail.gmail.com>	<20050630174344.S66383@neptune.atopia.net>	<CCB01090-72D0-40F5-B422-7CAFC09E4837@belovedarctos.com>
	<20050630202218.P69972@neptune.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <42C4A2CA.6040409@bestweb.net>

I had a bitch of a time with my FreeBSD 5.3 box. all types of random
stuff was happening.. Some programs would core dump randomly for no
reason. Rebooting the computer would actually lock it up instead of
shutting it down all the way.. Disabling hyperthreading fixed a few of
the problems Disable ACPI fixed everything else.


Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> Have you tried running http://www.memtest86.com ?
>
>
> Yep.
>
>
>> When you said it's SMP, is it Hyperthreaded?  I doubt it would be
>> causing the crashes, but you could try disabling that to see if it
>> helps.
>
>
>
> Hyperthreadig was one of the first things I tried :)
>
> Thanks for your response.  I'll get my dmesg posted when I get home.
>
> -Matt
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month