From mikel.king  Sat Oct  1 00:10:08 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 00:10:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gpl on /.
In-Reply-To: <20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
References: <8c50a3c30509300840t7d30bc2et49e9b141a79bf581@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509301901270.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301150s6dd52e61laac9d9d650656cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509302134540.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301331j13c643e3y1501e2a92707531c@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDB7FCE7-BE34-404F-A23F-7FFC4EEA1A35@ocsny.com>
	<20050930210318.GO12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509301621j2e1f29e6t2b2a3fb403039d36@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
Message-ID: <915F437B-626B-465F-907C-30191F2BD1A2@ocsny.com>


On Sep 30, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Marco Scoffier wrote:


> On Fri, Sep 30, 2005 at 07:21:08PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>
>
>> On 9/30/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> <big snip>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 30, 2005 at 05:02:55PM -0400, Mikel King wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On a side note, I'm wondering what sort of security holes this will
>>>> open?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Don't you mean close?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> nope open, the easyest way to exploit code is to read the code for
>> bugs and not tell the people who are running their bussiness on it.
>>
>>
>>
> Oh the businesses always find out when there is an exploit,
>
> I'm a bit suprised by what seems to be an arguement for a false sense
> of security.
>
> -- Marco
>
>

False or not, if you have to rely on someone else writing it for you  
then you probably lake the ability to discover the flaws yourself.  
Anyone who's been in this business for a while can surely agree that  
security stands fairly low on the priorities of most CFOs.

This is not really a debate about security, it's about a stupid idea,  
that adds no value to the current gpl, and more importantly it is the  
kind of stupidity that give's open source a bad name.




From lists  Sat Oct  1 00:28:46 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:28:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
Message-ID: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>

According to what I can find in the net it seems that it is not easy 
(possible?)  to have more than one SSL certificate per IP/port in Apache 
1.3.X

Anyone knows of a way to do it? Is it possible?




From alex  Sat Oct  1 00:40:32 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:40:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510010039480.5564-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> According to what I can find in the net it seems that it is not easy
> (possible?)  to have more than one SSL certificate per IP/port in Apache
> 1.3.X
> 
> Anyone knows of a way to do it? Is it possible?
It is not possible.

SSL negotiation takes place prior to HTTP headers being sent - thus remote 
host has no idea which web server you want to talk to.

-alex




From mspitzer  Sat Oct  1 01:20:04 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 01:20:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gpl on /.
In-Reply-To: <20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
References: <8c50a3c30509300840t7d30bc2et49e9b141a79bf581@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509301901270.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301150s6dd52e61laac9d9d650656cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509302134540.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301331j13c643e3y1501e2a92707531c@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDB7FCE7-BE34-404F-A23F-7FFC4EEA1A35@ocsny.com>
	<20050930210318.GO12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509301621j2e1f29e6t2b2a3fb403039d36@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30509302220x2fa70887je3bc9f715432139@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/30/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2005 at 07:21:08PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
<snip>
> >nope open, the easyest way to exploit code is to read the code for
> >bugs and not tell the people who are running their bussiness on it.
> >
> Oh the businesses always find out when there is an exploit,

not always, it depends why the cracker is there, how good he is, what
kind of controls you have on your network and servers etc.  Most
places may never figure out how there compitition got there customer
list.

>
> I'm a bit suprised by what seems to be an arguement for a false sense
> of security.

think of it as the difference between a locked door and a locked door
with the key taped to it.

marc

--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From lists  Sat Oct  1 09:58:24 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:58:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <0MKp2t-1ELhsm3jDc-0003nN@mrelay.perfora.net>



Francisco Reyes wrote on Saturday, October 01, 2005 12:29 AM:
> According to what I can find in the net it seems that it is not easy
> (possible?)  to have more than one SSL certificate per IP/port in Apache
> 1.3.X
> 
> Anyone knows of a way to do it? Is it possible?

Not possible - chicken and the egg problem.

http://www.modssl.org/docs/2.8/ssl_faq.html#ToC47
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/ssl/ssl_faq.html#parallel

There are somethings in the works, but they appear to be a ways off.


---
Hans Zaunere / President / New York PHP
   www.nyphp.org  /  www.nyphp.com





From lists  Sat Oct  1 10:18:13 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 10:18:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051001101813.050e7e96@genoverly.com>

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:28:46 -0400 (EDT)
Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:

> According to what I can find in the net it seems that it is not easy 
> (possible?)  to have more than one SSL certificate per IP/port in
> Apache  1.3.X
> 
> Anyone knows of a way to do it? Is it possible?
> 

As everyone has already pointed out.. 1 apache = 1 cert.  In my
experinece, the default virtual domain appears when you
https://www.domain.com from a browser.

The solution I use is another instance of apache in a chroot or jail.

Michael



From chsnyder  Sat Oct  1 11:58:17 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 11:58:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <20051001101813.050e7e96@genoverly.com>
References: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051001101813.050e7e96@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <b76252690510010858x45cd92a5t13f65437405f7808@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/05, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:28:46 -0400 (EDT)
> Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:
>
> > According to what I can find in the net it seems that it is not easy
> > (possible?)  to have more than one SSL certificate per IP/port in
> > Apache  1.3.X
> >
> > Anyone knows of a way to do it? Is it possible?
> >
>
> As everyone has already pointed out.. 1 apache = 1 cert.  In my
> experinece, the default virtual domain appears when you
> https://www.domain.com from a browser.
>
> The solution I use is another instance of apache in a chroot or jail.
>

Really a one-to-one relationship?

I'm pretty sure (darn it) that you can use IP-based virtual hosting to
provide more than one secure site in a single Apache process, provided
the server is reachable on more than one IP address.

The restriction should apply to name-based virtual hosting only.

--
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/



From lists  Sat Oct  1 12:43:36 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 12:43:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <b76252690510010858x45cd92a5t13f65437405f7808@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051001101813.050e7e96@genoverly.com>
	<b76252690510010858x45cd92a5t13f65437405f7808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051001124336.6dc2f5f5@genoverly.com>

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 11:58:17 -0400
csnyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

> Really a one-to-one relationship?
> 
> I'm pretty sure (darn it) that you can use IP-based virtual hosting to
> provide more than one secure site in a single Apache process, provided
> the server is reachable on more than one IP address.
> 
> The restriction should apply to name-based virtual hosting only.
> 
> --
> Chris Snyder
> http://chxo.com/

I was referring to name-based virtual hosts.
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/ssl/ssl_faq.html

Good catch, Mr. Snyder.
Michael



From marco  Sat Oct  1 13:10:45 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 13:10:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gpl on /.
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30509302220x2fa70887je3bc9f715432139@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30509300840t7d30bc2et49e9b141a79bf581@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509301901270.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301150s6dd52e61laac9d9d650656cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509302134540.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301331j13c643e3y1501e2a92707531c@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDB7FCE7-BE34-404F-A23F-7FFC4EEA1A35@ocsny.com>
	<20050930210318.GO12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509301621j2e1f29e6t2b2a3fb403039d36@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509302220x2fa70887je3bc9f715432139@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051001171045.GA23290@ns.metm.org>

On Sat, Oct 01, 2005 at 01:20:04AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>think of it as the difference between a locked door and a locked door
>with the key taped to it.
>

Wrong.  

It is equivalent to making the plans for how the lock was made publicly
available.  The key is not made public.

You are are full of confusing and downright faulty analogies.

-- 
Marco



From mspitzer  Sat Oct  1 13:42:18 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 13:42:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gpl on /.
In-Reply-To: <20051001171045.GA23290@ns.metm.org>
References: <8c50a3c30509300840t7d30bc2et49e9b141a79bf581@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30509301150s6dd52e61laac9d9d650656cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509302134540.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<8c50a3c30509301331j13c643e3y1501e2a92707531c@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDB7FCE7-BE34-404F-A23F-7FFC4EEA1A35@ocsny.com>
	<20050930210318.GO12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509301621j2e1f29e6t2b2a3fb403039d36@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509302220x2fa70887je3bc9f715432139@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001171045.GA23290@ns.metm.org>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510011042xf839257p60ff893ddd6f44c@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 01, 2005 at 01:20:04AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> >think of it as the difference between a locked door and a locked door
> >with the key taped to it.
> >
>
> Wrong.
>
> It is equivalent to making the plans for how the lock was made publicly
> available.  The key is not made public.
>
> You are are full of confusing and downright faulty analogies.

The funny thing about analogies is that they are *all* wrong by
definition, one of my favorite's is 22/7.

Now would you have preferred a paper sack full of keys, exploits, to a
number of doors, that may or may not lead to different places, db
access or shell account or nothing useful,  more pedantic stuff
follows?

And yes the first guy to figure it out will need to have some skill to
do it, but the first guy he tells, or gives a canned exploit to, does
not.

marc

>
> --
> Marco
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From lists  Sat Oct  1 23:11:45 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <0MKp2t-1ELhsm3jDc-0003nN@mrelay.perfora.net>
References: <0MKp2t-1ELhsm3jDc-0003nN@mrelay.perfora.net>
Message-ID: <20051001231031.M15236@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, Hans Zaunere wrote:

> Not possible - chicken and the egg problem.

Thanks for the links.

I was able to confirm that using different IPs work.
So basically one can have one SSL per IP/port.

> There are somethings in the works, but they appear to be a ways off.

For now will just use different IP, but it's good to know that there are 
plans to work on this.



From lists  Sat Oct  1 23:34:44 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:34:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache, ftp, samba, etc....
In-Reply-To: <433894B1.80704@sddi.net>
References: <20050926203406.kqdee76q88kk48k8@free.loftmail.com>
	<433894B1.80704@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, George R. wrote:

> It's not really a question of jails v non-jails to me. . .

Given that samba can be configured to listen only in certain subnets what 
would be the advantage of jailing the external apps?

To protect in case someone breaks into apache/ftp?



From lists  Sat Oct  1 23:37:44 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:37:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] More that one SSL cert per IP/Port?
In-Reply-To: <b76252690510010858x45cd92a5t13f65437405f7808@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051001002713.T82489@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051001101813.050e7e96@genoverly.com>
	<b76252690510010858x45cd92a5t13f65437405f7808@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051001233721.V15236@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005, csnyder wrote:

> The restriction should apply to name-based virtual hosting only.


Correct. It's 1 certificate per IP/Port.



From lists  Sat Oct  1 23:39:52 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:39:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] DSL Providers
In-Reply-To: <200509261945.j8QJjcOY032342@lucifier.net>
References: <200509261945.j8QJjcOY032342@lucifier.net>
Message-ID: <20051001233835.D15236@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, Michael Shalayeff wrote:

> cloud9 and acedsl seem to be the most liberal

don't know about liberal, but I am very happy with my Acedsl. Have had 
them for several years. I only remember I have them when I get the bill. 
:-)

Except for my wife or one of the nephews tripping on one of the cables I 
extremely rarely ever have had my internet down.



From mspitzer  Sun Oct  2 00:58:46 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:58:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache, ftp, samba, etc....
In-Reply-To: <20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050926203406.kqdee76q88kk48k8@free.loftmail.com>
	<433894B1.80704@sddi.net> <20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510012158u75915d84pfe164eb6727f8c6c@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/05, Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, George R. wrote:
>
> > It's not really a question of jails v non-jails to me. . .
>
> Given that samba can be configured to listen only in certain subnets what
> would be the advantage of jailing the external apps?
>
> To protect in case someone breaks into apache/ftp?

yes.  With a script you can rebuild a jail, including saving all the
data(web site etc), and recover from an incident automatically.  login
to the root box and kick off the script and all is better.  Even if
you are running apps that give you root you only get root in the jail
and your tripwire( or mtree if you want to be bsdish(and who does
not)) should be running out of the main box that has not been
compromised.

marc

> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From lists  Sun Oct  2 10:11:08 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 10:11:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache, ftp, samba, etc....
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30510012158u75915d84pfe164eb6727f8c6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050926203406.kqdee76q88kk48k8@free.loftmail.com> 
	<433894B1.80704@sddi.net> <20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30510012158u75915d84pfe164eb6727f8c6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051002100309.Y88154@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:

>> To protect in case someone breaks into apache/ftp?
>
> yes.  With a script you can rebuild a jail, including saving all the
> data(web site etc), and recover from an incident automatically.

Sounds like a good idea.

> you are running apps that give you root you only get root in the jail

I have actually used jails, just have never set one up. Now will have a 
machine where I think it may make sense.

> and your tripwire( or mtree if you want to be bsdish(and who does
> not)) should be running out of the main box that has not been
> compromised.

I like that idea. Specially for files one does not expect to change.
I already have a little script to use mtree to compare directories.

How about CPU overhead?
I like the concept of a jail, but in the past I always wondered if the 
extra complexity and CPU overhead were necessary for my needs. I think a 
current box I am setting up is the first time I think it make sense.

I will have both confidential services/data AND at the same time need to 
serve an app through http to the public. In an ideal world I would like 
two machines, but given how little load I expect to have on the machine 
it's hard to justify.



From ike  Sun Oct  2 18:15:27 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:15:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache, ftp, samba, etc....
In-Reply-To: <20051002100309.Y88154@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20050926203406.kqdee76q88kk48k8@free.loftmail.com>
	<433894B1.80704@sddi.net>
	<20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30510012158u75915d84pfe164eb6727f8c6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051002100309.Y88154@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <A2386C70-E9A6-427B-87EB-BD25BEC36FD0@lesmuug.org>

Hi Francisco, All,

On Oct 2, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Oct 2005, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>>> To protect in case someone breaks into apache/ftp?
>>>
>>
>> yes.  With a script you can rebuild a jail, including saving all the
>> data(web site etc), and recover from an incident automatically.
>>
>
> Sounds like a good idea.

<snip>

>> and your tripwire( or mtree if you want to be bsdish(and who does
>> not)) should be running out of the main box that has not been
>> compromised.

That's OK, *but*, let me throw in the caveat that any process/daemon  
which runs from a master jailing box, and so much as touches files in  
a jail, is at risk of being compromised.

Not that I'm saying I know of any vuln. for tripwire in this case,  
but it's worth saying here.

> I like that idea. Specially for files one does not expect to change.
> I already have a little script to use mtree to compare directories.
>
> How about CPU overhead?
> I like the concept of a jail, but in the past I always wondered if  
> the extra complexity and CPU overhead were necessary for my needs.  
> I think a current box I am setting up is the first time I think it  
> make sense.

Re. CPU overhead, it's VERY minimal for jailed systems- by design.   
Jail is not a full-fledged virtual machine, so the resources soaked,  
are simply whatever you end up running in the jail itself- jailing is  
different than Xen or VMware in this respect, as the virtualization  
of memory and etc.. hardware interfaces, are comparatively much more  
taxing- though in the context of the applications used, it's all  
pretty moot... (3k vs. 300k is nothing on a machine with a gig of ram ;)

> I will have both confidential services/data AND at the same time  
> need to serve an app through http to the public. In an ideal world  
> I would like two machines, but given how little load I expect to  
> have on the machine it's hard to justify.

As an aside, jail(8) was used for CTF competition at DefCon this  
summer instead of many many boxen, as I understand the competition  
revolved around application-level exploits this year.  (Read: Jails  
are Secureable)

Rocket-
.ike





From bob  Mon Oct  3 03:23:48 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 03:23:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache, ftp, samba, etc....
In-Reply-To: <A2386C70-E9A6-427B-87EB-BD25BEC36FD0@lesmuug.org>
References: <20050926203406.kqdee76q88kk48k8@free.loftmail.com>
	<433894B1.80704@sddi.net>
	<20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30510012158u75915d84pfe164eb6727f8c6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051002100309.Y88154@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<A2386C70-E9A6-427B-87EB-BD25BEC36FD0@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <6A48E3C8-6DD9-49F6-A166-2B5576D009F0@redivi.com>


On Oct 2, 2005, at 6:15 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> On Oct 2, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote:
>
>> I like that idea. Specially for files one does not expect to change.
>> I already have a little script to use mtree to compare directories.
>>
>> How about CPU overhead?
>> I like the concept of a jail, but in the past I always wondered if  
>> the extra complexity and CPU overhead were necessary for my needs.  
>> I think a current box I am setting up is the first time I think it  
>> make sense.
>>
>
> Re. CPU overhead, it's VERY minimal for jailed systems- by design.   
> Jail is not a full-fledged virtual machine, so the resources  
> soaked, are simply whatever you end up running in the jail itself-  
> jailing is different than Xen or VMware in this respect, as the  
> virtualization of memory and etc.. hardware interfaces, are  
> comparatively much more taxing- though in the context of the  
> applications used, it's all pretty moot... (3k vs. 300k is nothing  
> on a machine with a gig of ram ;)

In either case, when was the last time you did anything CPU bound?   
Almost every service you're going to run is IO bound by disk or  
network (or even RAM).  The CPU almost always has plenty of cycles to  
spare.

The memory usage or increased memory usage might matter, but it's  
likely to be quite negligible.  Jails are by design basically the  
lightest weight method to solve the virtualization problem (since  
there is only one kernel for all jails)... Anything that does machine  
emulation like Xen or VMWare is going to have to just allocate a big  
chunk of memory for each virtual system, so will require a lot more  
RAM and memory bandwidth than a jails solution.

-bob




From cclymer  Mon Oct  3 04:05:54 2005
From: cclymer (Chris Clymer)
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 04:05:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gpl on /.
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30510011042xf839257p60ff893ddd6f44c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30509300840t7d30bc2et49e9b141a79bf581@mail.gmail.com>	<8c50a3c30509301150s6dd52e61laac9d9d650656cf2@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0509302134540.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>	<8c50a3c30509301331j13c643e3y1501e2a92707531c@mail.gmail.com>	<FDB7FCE7-BE34-404F-A23F-7FFC4EEA1A35@ocsny.com>	<20050930210318.GO12532@ns.metm.org>	<8c50a3c30509301621j2e1f29e6t2b2a3fb403039d36@mail.gmail.com>	<20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>	<8c50a3c30509302220x2fa70887je3bc9f715432139@mail.gmail.com>	<20051001171045.GA23290@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30510011042xf839257p60ff893ddd6f44c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4340E662.3070908@chrisclymer.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Are you actually arguing that software is more secure if its
closed-source?  I thought that history had done a pretty good job of
disproving this.

That said, this stuff about the GPL3 is defintly interesting.  What if i
have a db.inc file in my web app full of sensitive information?  Can i
put just that file under a different license?  Its still PHP code thats
part of the same app...

Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On 10/1/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
> 
>>On Sat, Oct 01, 2005 at 01:20:04AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>>
>>>think of it as the difference between a locked door and a locked door
>>>with the key taped to it.
>>>
>>
>>Wrong.
>>
>>It is equivalent to making the plans for how the lock was made publicly
>>available.  The key is not made public.
>>
>>You are are full of confusing and downright faulty analogies.
> 
> 
> The funny thing about analogies is that they are *all* wrong by
> definition, one of my favorite's is 22/7.
> 
> Now would you have preferred a paper sack full of keys, exploits, to a
> number of doors, that may or may not lead to different places, db
> access or shell account or nothing useful,  more pedantic stuff
> follows?
> 
> And yes the first guy to figure it out will need to have some skill to
> do it, but the first guy he tells, or gives a canned exploit to, does
> not.
> 
> marc
> 
> 
>>--
>>Marco
>>_______________________________________________
>>% NYC*BUG talk mailing list
>>http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>%Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
>>%We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
> form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
> we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
> can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
> inefficiency and demoralization."
> -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 

- --
          Chris Clymer - Chris at ChrisClymer.com
PGP: E546 19B6 D1EC 47A7 CAA0 8623 C807 398C CD27 15B8

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From mspitzer  Mon Oct  3 04:48:55 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 04:48:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] gpl on /.
In-Reply-To: <4340E662.3070908@chrisclymer.com>
References: <8c50a3c30509300840t7d30bc2et49e9b141a79bf581@mail.gmail.com>
	<8c50a3c30509301331j13c643e3y1501e2a92707531c@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDB7FCE7-BE34-404F-A23F-7FFC4EEA1A35@ocsny.com>
	<20050930210318.GO12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509301621j2e1f29e6t2b2a3fb403039d36@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001030806.GR12532@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30509302220x2fa70887je3bc9f715432139@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051001171045.GA23290@ns.metm.org>
	<8c50a3c30510011042xf839257p60ff893ddd6f44c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4340E662.3070908@chrisclymer.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510030148w41e1886exbebc8d11eebdef@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/05, Chris Clymer <cclymer at gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Are you actually arguing that software is more secure if its
> closed-source?  I thought that history had done a pretty good job of
> disproving this.

No. There are different trade offs in this:

open source: Everyone can read the code, this includes bad people who
can use the code of the application to craft exploits, and submit
patches

closed source: no one, in general, can read the source, this includes
bad people who can *not* read the code to craft exploits, so they can
not submit patches

it cuts both ways especially when dam near all end users are not
capable of submitting a patch or even reading code.

I think it is 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of another.  Now the difference on
how specific projects/companies handle the issue is different.  Now
some companies suck at this as do some projects.

What I think makes the difference is if you engage in good engineering
practices, for example:

bad:  We will write code that will not have any bugs

good: we will try to write code with no bugs in it, but we are not
always that good so we will design the application in such a way that
a compromise is not going to cause much of a problem

bad: big honken monolithic process that is full of very complex logic
and runs as root

good: lots of separate unprivileged processes that each do one thing
and unless absolutely necessary they do not run as root

I could go on with lots of others but I think you get my idea.

Now one of the big problems is that people buy shit, so companies are
in the business of selling it to them.  Now if you look at one area
where people generally do not buy/use shit, enterprise DB's, you will
not see the problem as much, word gets around when the db ate my
business.

>
> That said, this stuff about the GPL3 is defintly interesting.  What if i
> have a db.inc file in my web app full of sensitive information?  Can i
> put just that file under a different license?  Its still PHP code thats
> part of the same app...

from what I understood no, it is linked to the gpl3 parts so must be
downloaded.  And it makes no difference what licence you put it under
it is hit by the viral clause, its not your choice once you use gpled
code.

Also please do not top post, it makes things hard to follow.

marc


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From steve.rieger  Mon Oct  3 11:01:21 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:01:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
Message-ID: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>

hi all

amoung the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to only  
allow connections from a certain ip address.



Steve Rieger
steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com
Cell      646-335-8915
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq light)
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} == black_hole)
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})){
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} + 1;
};





From mikel.king  Mon Oct  3 11:09:48 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:09:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <B2DEB97F-3C11-4D40-BCCE-48A387183E82@ocsny.com>


On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:

> hi all
>
> amoung the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to  
> only allow connections from a certain ip address.
>
>
>
> Steve Rieger
> steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com
> Cell      646-335-8915
> Office   212 804 1131
> Fax       212 804 1200
> AIM      chozrim
> Yahoo riegersteve
>
> if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq light)
>    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} == black_hole)
>    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})){
>  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} + 1;
> };
>

IPFW... or some other firewally type method is probably the best way...

Cheers,
Mikel King
Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
Tech Alliance, INC
39 West Fourteenth Street
Second Floor
New York, NY 10011
http://www.ocsny.com
http://www.techally.com
t: 212.727.2100x132
+------------------------------------------+
How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use
each other, but optimists help each other.
Collaboration feeds your spirit, while
competition only stokes your ego. You'll
find the best way to get along.
+------------------------------------------+






From steve.rieger  Mon Oct  3 11:15:33 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:15:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <B2DEB97F-3C11-4D40-BCCE-48A387183E82@ocsny.com>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
	<B2DEB97F-3C11-4D40-BCCE-48A387183E82@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <F467CF00-6FF3-4F03-B23D-1EDD84B69DFF@tbwachiat.com>


On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:09 AM, Mikel King wrote:

>
> On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:
>
>
>> hi all
>>
>> among the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to  
>> only allow connections from a certain ip address.
>>
>>
>
> IPFW... or some other firewally type method is probably the best  
> way...

i do not want to start up a firewall if there is any other way.

is there no accept from like there is in postfix for relay ?



From sequethin  Mon Oct  3 11:21:53 2005
From: sequethin (Mike Hernandez)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:21:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <F467CF00-6FF3-4F03-B23D-1EDD84B69DFF@tbwachiat.com>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
	<B2DEB97F-3C11-4D40-BCCE-48A387183E82@ocsny.com>
	<F467CF00-6FF3-4F03-B23D-1EDD84B69DFF@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <3060c2390510030821l700afda1t3349818c8c16d3f0@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> i do not want to start up a firewall if there is any other way.
>
> is there no accept from like there is in postfix for relay ?

google for sshd hosts.allow

Mike



From mikel.king  Mon Oct  3 11:34:13 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:34:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <F467CF00-6FF3-4F03-B23D-1EDD84B69DFF@tbwachiat.com>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
	<B2DEB97F-3C11-4D40-BCCE-48A387183E82@ocsny.com>
	<F467CF00-6FF3-4F03-B23D-1EDD84B69DFF@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <EEC0799C-1778-4CC4-BD7A-3BC9006077D9@ocsny.com>


On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:15 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:

>
> On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:09 AM, Mikel King wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> hi all
>>>
>>> among the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to  
>>> only allow connections from a certain ip address.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> IPFW... or some other firewally type method is probably the best  
>> way...
>>
>
> i do not want to start up a firewall if there is any other way.
>
> is there no accept from like there is in postfix for relay ?
>


There is this form the man page...

      HostbasedAuthentication
              Specifies whether rhosts or /etc/hosts.equiv  
authentication
              together with successful public key client host  
authentication is
              allowed (hostbased authentication).  This option is  
similar to
              RhostsRSAAuthentication and applies to protocol version  
2 only.
              The default is ``no''.

      HostKey
              Specifies a file containing a private host key used by  
SSH.  The
              default is /etc/ssh_host_key for protocol version 1, and
              /etc/ssh_host_rsa_key and /etc/ssh_host_dsa_key for  
protocol ver-
              sion 2.  Note that sshd will refuse to use a file if it is
              group/world-accessible.  It is possible to have  
multiple host key
              files.  ``rsa1'' keys are used for version 1 and  
``dsa'' or
              ``rsa'' are used for version 2 of the SSH protocol.


Cheers,
Mikel King
Optimized Computer Solutions, INC
Tech Alliance, INC
39 West Fourteenth Street
Second Floor
New York, NY 10011
http://www.ocsny.com
http://www.techally.com
t: 212.727.2100x132
+------------------------------------------+
How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use
each other, but optimists help each other.
Collaboration feeds your spirit, while
competition only stokes your ego. You'll
find the best way to get along.
+------------------------------------------+






From ike  Mon Oct  3 13:19:13 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:19:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <870867BD-A8DE-4C5F-A062-8CB1506C064A@lesmuug.org>

Hi Steve,

On Oct 3, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:




> amoung the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to  
> only allow connections from a certain ip address.
>
>
>

No, by design, that should happen at the link-layer (IP), not the  
Applicaton layer.

Weather or not this would be handy, is another discussion  
alltogher... but I'd think this feature would tend to be sorely abused.

You should check /etc/hosts.allow for certain, man pages on the  
syntax are hosts_options on FreeBSD- as you may get what you need out  
of that.

--
Sidenote regarding HostbasedAuthentication and HostKey, these are SSH  
configurtion directives for using ssh keys, which is a whole other  
bag... (I Love ssh keys!)

Some Googles:
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~pkeck/ssh/
http://www.sshkeychain.org/mirrors/SSH-with-Keys-HOWTO/SSH-with-Keys- 
HOWTO.html

Rocket-
.ike








From hubert  Mon Oct  3 13:23:25 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 19:23:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510031845180.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>

On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Steve Rieger wrote:
> amoung the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to only allow 
> connections from a certain ip address.

I guess that hosts.allow is your best bet here.

A weaker alternative is to turn off password-based authentication 
("PasswordAuthentication no"), and the use "from=" in the authorized_keys 
file, ssee the "AUTHORIZED_KEYS FILE FORMAT" section in sshd(8) manpage.


  - Hubert



From steve.rieger  Mon Oct  3 13:28:49 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:28:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510031845180.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510031845180.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <B804DDF8-5037-4DB1-BCCF-19EBCBAA442E@tbwachiat.com>


On Oct 3, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Hubert Feyrer wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Steve Rieger wrote:
>
>> amoung the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to  
>> only allow connections from a certain ip address.
>>
>
> I guess that hosts.allow is your best bet here.
>
> A weaker alternative is to turn off password-based authentication  
> ("PasswordAuthentication no"), and the use "from=" in the  
> authorized_keys file, ssee the "AUTHORIZED_KEYS FILE FORMAT"  
> section in sshd(8) manpage.


got it do do what i needed with /etc/hosts.allow

thanx all





From lmurillo  Mon Oct  3 13:40:27 2005
From: lmurillo (Luis Murillo)
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:40:27 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh config question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510031845180.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <45DEC7FC-DCE1-4559-9AC0-8D3D0639FB79@tbwachiat.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510031845180.24261@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <43416D0B.3090109@gmx.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Why is it a "weaker alternative" to use authorized_keys? Isn't this a
bit more secure than using passwords?

Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Steve Rieger wrote:
> 
>> amoung the many options is there a way i can tell sshd_config to only
>> allow connections from a certain ip address.
> 
> 
> I guess that hosts.allow is your best bet here.
> 
> A weaker alternative is to turn off password-based authentication
> ("PasswordAuthentication no"), and the use "from=" in the
> authorized_keys file, ssee the "AUTHORIZED_KEYS FILE FORMAT" section in
> sshd(8) manpage.
> 
> 
>  - Hubert
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 
> 

- --
Luis Murillo
lmurillo at gmx.net

GPG KeyID: D66B35FD
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From trish  Tue Oct  4 13:40:33 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:40:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache, ftp, samba, etc....
In-Reply-To: <6A48E3C8-6DD9-49F6-A166-2B5576D009F0@redivi.com>
References: <20050926203406.kqdee76q88kk48k8@free.loftmail.com>
	<433894B1.80704@sddi.net> <20051001233348.I15236@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<8c50a3c30510012158u75915d84pfe164eb6727f8c6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051002100309.Y88154@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<A2386C70-E9A6-427B-87EB-BD25BEC36FD0@lesmuug.org>
	<6A48E3C8-6DD9-49F6-A166-2B5576D009F0@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <20051004133926.X59405@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Mon, 3 Oct 2005, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> In either case, when was the last time you did anything CPU bound?  Almost 
> every service you're going to run is IO bound by disk or network (or even 
> RAM).  The CPU almost always has plenty of cycles to spare.

let me see, I'm currently doing this right now, we do realtime audio and 
video processing using FreeBSD hosts to multiplex it, it takes increasing 
the rtprio of processes to get them working well, and they are majorly cpu 
bound :)

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From joshmccormack  Wed Oct  5 12:42:41 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:42:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] wireless card supported in OpenBSD?
Message-ID: <43440281.80902@travelersdiary.com>

I looked at the OpenBSD site, but just want to make sure I"m not 
overlooking something. I have a 802.11b pcmcia card that I think is not 
supported. Could someone confirm or deny?

GigaFast Wireless 802.11B PCMCIA Adapter
WF721-AEX

Thanks,

Josh



From mickey  Wed Oct  5 12:55:45 2005
From: mickey (Michael Shalayeff)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 12:55:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] wireless card supported in OpenBSD?
In-Reply-To: <43440281.80902@travelersdiary.com> from Josh McCormack at "Oct
	5, 2005 12:42:41 pm"
Message-ID: <200510051655.j95Gtj2M030715@lucifier.net>

Making, drinking tea and reading an opus magnum from Josh McCormack:
> I looked at the OpenBSD site, but just want to make sure I"m not 
> overlooking something. I have a 802.11b pcmcia card that I think is not 
> supported. Could someone confirm or deny?
> 
> GigaFast Wireless 802.11B PCMCIA Adapter
> WF721-AEX

if you already have a card would not it be much
faster to just try it?

cu

-- 
    paranoic mickey       (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)



From okan  Wed Oct  5 13:12:32 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 13:12:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] wireless card supported in OpenBSD?
In-Reply-To: <43440281.80902@travelersdiary.com>
References: <43440281.80902@travelersdiary.com>
Message-ID: <20051005171254.GB2313@nitrogen.khaoz.org>

On Wed 2005.10.05 at 12:42 -0400, Josh McCormack wrote:
> I looked at the OpenBSD site, but just want to make sure I"m not 
> overlooking something. I have a 802.11b pcmcia card that I think is not 
> supported. Could someone confirm or deny?
> 
> GigaFast Wireless 802.11B PCMCIA Adapter
> WF721-AEX

stick it in your laptop and send a dmesg



From george  Wed Oct  5 22:50:14 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:50:14 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SFS: Self-certifying File System
Message-ID: <434490E6.7010209@sddi.net>

A number of us were talking about remote mapping of file systems 
securely after the NYCBUG meeting. . .

It's SFS Self-certifying File System (it's in the fbsd ports in security/)

Marco S told me about it. . . one of or *the* developer is David 
Mazieres, who I guess taught at NYU last semester, but is apparently at 
Stanford:

http://www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/

And SFS is here:

http://www.fs.net/sfswww/

Anyone have practical experience with it?

g



From lists  Thu Oct  6 08:21:15 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:21:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <20051006082115.5ed57c4c@genoverly.com>

-----------------------------------------------------------
Begin forwarded message:

Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:29:04 -0700
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, October 5

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
October 5, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Ambient Findability
-Halo 2 Hacks
-Cult of iPod
-Windows Server 2003 Network Administration
-Prefactoring
-Degunking Windows, Second Edition
-eBay: The Missing Manual
-iPod Shuffle Fan Book
-Behind Closed Doors
-Security and Usability
-iLife: The Missing Manual
-Digital Photography Pocket Guide, 3rd Edition
-Oracle PL/SQL Programming, 4th Edition
-TCP/IP Guide
-Cisco IOS in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Stephen Teilhet ("C# Cookbook" and "Subclassing and Hooking with
 Visual Basic") at Compuware OJ.X, Detroit, MI--October 6
-"The Art of Project Management" Tour, Boston, NYC, and 
 Pittsburgh--October 11-19
-O'Reilly Authors at Macromedia Max, Anaheim, CA--October 16-19
-Steven Feuerstein's Oracle PL/SQL Programming Conference, 
 Chicago, IL--November 2-3

----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-ETel Registration Now Open
-Registration is Open for EuroOSCON
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Tim O'Reilly in the News
-What Is Web 2.0?
-Beta Broadcast 002: Data for Web 2.0
-What Is Asterisk?
-Marking up your Designs with HTMLstamps
 Opera Goes Free Without Ads
-User Group Members receive a special 50% discount Learning 
 Lab Courses
-Perlcast Interviews Jesse Vincent, author of "RT Essentials"
-What Is Free Software?
-Installing Debian
-Backward Compatibility? We've Heard of It
-Using FreeBSD's ACLs
-How to Set Up Backup 3 and Save Your Data
-Installing Fink on Mac OS X
-What Is ASP.NET?
-Using Windows Explorer with Alternate Credentials
-What Is C#?
-What Is Quartz?
-What Is Hibernate?
-Jack Herrington ("Podcasting Hacks") on the User Group Report
-Nate Howard: Midwestern Photographer in Iraq
-Julian Kwasneski: Inside Game Audio
-Make your own "PowerSquid"

================================================
Book News
================================================
Did you know you can request a free book to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html

Don't forget, you can receive 30% off any O'Reilly, No Starch, 
Paraglyph, PC Publishing, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, or Syngress
book you purchase directly from O'Reilly.
Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938.
http://www.oreilly.com/

***Free ground shipping is available for online orders of at 
least $29.95 that go to a single U.S. address. This offer 
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For more details, go to:
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----------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases
----------------------------------------------------------------
***Ambient Findability
ISBN: 0596007655
Written by best-selling author Peter Morville, this thought-provoking
book describes the future of information and connectivity, examining how
the melding of innovations like GIS and the internet will impact the
global marketplace and society at large. Focused on information
literacy, information architecture, and usability as critical
components, this book doesn't preach or pretend to know all the answers,
rather, Morville presents research, stories, and examples for support.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ambient/

Chapter 1, "Lost and Found," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ambient/chapter/index.html

Book Blog:
http://findability.org/


***Halo 2 Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100590
Even if you've finished Halo 2 in Legendary Mode, you're not done with
this game. This incredible book gives you a horde of great hacks for
weapons, levels, vehicles, game play, and mods. With all the clever tips
and tricks we have in store, you'll turn Halo 2 into a whole new
experience, whether you're at level 25 or a complete n00b.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/halo2hks/index.html

Sample Hack 46, "Drop Your Weapons," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/halo2hks/chapter/index.html


***Cult of iPod
Publisher: No Starch Press
ISBN: 1593270666
"The Cult of iPod" is a comprehensive look at how the iPod is changing
music, culture, and listening behavior. This 4-color book includes the
exclusive back story of the iPod's development, looks at the many ways
iPod's users pay homage to their devices, and investigates the quirkier
aspects of iPod culture. From Wired News reporter Leander Kahney.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593270666/index.html


***Windows Server 2003 Network Administration
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008007
Ideal for system administrators and network managers, this essential
guide is divided into three distinct sections: fundamental concepts,
tutorial, and reference. The first three chapters are a basic discussion
of the network protocols and services. The remaining chapters provide a
how-to tutorial for planning, installing, and configuring various
important network services. The book concludes with three appendixes
that are technical references for various configuration options.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/windowsvrnet/

Chapter 14, "Troubleshooting TCP/IP," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/windowsvrnet/chapter/index.html


***Prefactoring
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008740
If you understand object-oriented design, and you want to save time and
money by considering more efficient designs before you begin your
project, Prefactoring will show you the way. This practical,
thought-provoking guide details prefactoring guidelines in design, code,
and testing, derived from lessons learned by many developers over the
years. With these guidelines, you'll create more readable code before
you reach the second-guessing stage.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/prefactoring/

Chapter 2, "The System in So Many Words," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/prefactoring/chapter/index.html


***Degunking Windows, Second Edition
Publisher: Paraglyph Press
ISBN: 1933097078
This fully updated and expanded edition provides numerous new Degunking
techniques to help Windows users get the most out of the latest version
of Windows XP-Service Pack 2. The book features new software, an
expanded 12-step Degunking plan, expanded hardware coverage, techniques
for getting the "kinks" out of SP 2, and new chapters on Windows Media
Player and security updates to keep PCs running safely and efficiently.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1933097078/index.html


***eBay: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596006446
This book has gems of wisdom for everyone from total novices to more
experienced traders. It covers both buying and selling, and it's chock
full of step-by-step instructions. Buyers will find the most effective
ways to find what they want and pay great prices. Sellers will get
surefire tips from eBay veterans who have discovered ways to ramp up
their own auctions and sell at the highest possible prices.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ebaytmm/

Chapter 3, "Finding and Getting Bargains," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ebaytmm/chapter/index.html


***iPod Shuffle Fan Book
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100701
This is the ultimate written companion for iPod Shuffle owners. This
user-friendly guide will teach you how to get your Shuffle up and
running, load it with up to 240 songs, and even use it as a flash drive
to transport files. Then, learn how to create custom playlists, share
and publish with iMix, burn playlists on CDs, and more. Beautifully
designed in a colorful, compact format, this handy reference book is a
must have for "shufflers" everywhere.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ipodshufflefb/


***Behind Closed Doors 
Publisher: Pragmatic Bookshelf
ISBN: 0976694026
If you're a seasoned manager who wants to be more effective, or if
you're considering moving into management, this book will show you what
to do and how to do it effectively.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0976694026/index.html


***Security and Usability
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008279
Destined to be the classic reference in this emerging field, Security &
Usability collects groundbreaking essays from leading security and
human-computer interaction (HCI) researchers on authentication, privacy
and anonymity, secure systems, commercialization, and much more. This
book is expected to start an avalanche of discussion, new ideas, and
further advances in this important field.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/securityusability/

Chapter 23, "Privacy Analysis for the Casual User with Bugnosis," is
available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/securityusability/chapter/index.html


***iLife: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100361
Objective and in-the-know, David Pogue highlights the newest features,
changes, and improvements of iLife '05, covers the capabilities and
limitations of each program within the suite, and delivers countless
undocumented tips, tricks, and secrets for getting the best performance
out of every iLife application. Pogue examines all five programs in
iLife '05 in depth: iTunes 4.7, iPhoto 5, iMovie HD, iDVD 5, and
GarageBand 2.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/ilife5tmm/


***Digital Photography Pocket Guide, 3rd Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100159
Portable and affordable, this is the perfect on-the-go guide for taking
top-notch digital photos. In full color, this third edition of the
bestseller covers everything from shooting sports action, close ups, and
night shots, to dealing with image resolution, archiving, memory cards,
and more. There's also a comprehensive table of contents and index, so
you'll waste no time flipping to the specific information you need.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/digphotopg3/

A sample excerpt, "Who's in Charge?", is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/digphotopg3/chapter/index.html


***Oracle PL/SQL Programming, 4th Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009771
This fourth edition of the 10-year bestseller is a comprehensive update
with significant new content extending to Oracle Database 10g Release 2.
New chapters added cover security, I/O (file, email, and web), and
internationalization. New features described include the PL/SQL
optimizing compiler, conditional compilation, compile-time warnings,
regular expressions, and much more. This classic reference provides
language syntax, best practices, and extensive code.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/oraclep4/

Chapter 20, "Managing PL/SQL Code," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/oraclep4/chapter/index.html


***TCP/IP Guide
Publisher: No Starch Press
ISBN: 159327047X
The "TCP/IP Guide" is both an encyclopedic and comprehensible guide to
the
TCP/IP protocol suite. Its personal, easy-going writing style lets
anyone understand the dozens of protocols and technologies that run the
Internet, with full coverage of PPP, ARP, IP, IPv6, IP NAT, IPSec,
Mobile IP, ICMP, RIP, BGP, TCP, UDP, DNS, DHCP, SNMP, FTP, SMTP, NNTP,
HTTP, Telnet, and much more.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/159327047X/index.html


***Cisco IOS in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008694
Fully revised, this second edition takes the mystery out of IOS 12.3 and
consolidates the most important commands and features of IOS into a
single, well-organized volume that you'll find refreshingly
user-friendly. This book covers IOS configuration for the TCP/IP
protocol family, and includes information on the user interface,
configuring lines and interfaces, dial-on-demand routing and security,
access lists, and much more.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/cisconut2/

Chapter 14, "Switches and VLANs," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/cisconut2/chapter/index.html


***MAKE Magazine Subscriptions Available
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--the first one plus
four more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for charter subscribers: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
https://www.pubservice.com/MK/Subnew.aspx?PC=MK&PK=M5ZUGLA

================================================
Upcoming Events
================================================
***For more events, please see:
http://events.oreilly.com/


***Stephen Teilhet ("C# Cookbook" and "Subclassing and Hooking with
Visual Basic") at Compuware OJ.X, Detroit, MI--October 6
Author Stephen will sign copies of his books at this event.
http://www.compuwareojx.com/


***"The Art of Project Management" Tour, Boston, NYC, and Pittsburgh--
October 11-19
Scott Berkun, author of the bestselling book "The Art of Project
Management," is hitting the road in October. Inspiring, funny, honest,
and compelling, this essential book is fueled by over a decade of work
in the industry and will save you and your team countless hours of trial
and error. Further details on the tour can be found on Scott's blog.
http://www.scottberkun.com/blog/?p=128


***O'Reilly Authors at Macromedia Max, Anaheim, CA--October 16-19
Colin Moock ("Essential ActionScript 2.0" and "ActionScript for Flash
MX: The Definitive Guide") and Joey Lott ("Actionscript Cookbook") are
both presenting at this year's event.
http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/events/max/


***Steven Feuerstein's Oracle PL/SQL Programming Conference, 
 Chicago, IL--November 2-3
Join Steven Feuerstein, author of "Oracle PL/SQL Programming, 4th
Edition," for this one-of-a-kind event on everything PL/SQL. It's a
unique opportunity to learn from some of the most respected and
experienced PL/SQL experts in the world. Whether you've been using
PL/SQL for years or have recently started working with this language,
OPP 2005 is a must-attend event.
http://www.oracleplsqlprogramming.com/opp2005.php


================================================
Conference News
================================================
***ETel Registration Now Open
Emerging telephony networks enable a new generation of powerful
communication applications, which threaten established business
models--but more importantly, open up new opportunities and new markets.
O'Reilly's Emerging Telephony Conference, January 24-26 in San
Francisco, aims to articulate this revolution, provide a framework, and
spark creative discussions among enterprise managers, developers,
hackers, and sponsors interested in telephony. Join us as we explore
this exciting new territory and investigate its implications.
http://conferences.oreilly.com/etel/

Use code "etel06dsug" when you register, and receive 15% off the
registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/etel2006/create/ord_etel06


***Registration is Open for EuroOSCON
Join developers, systems and network administrators, and IT managers at
the very first O'Reilly European Open Source Convention in Amsterdam on
October 17-20. EuroOSCON will explore the best and newest open source
technologies, particularly for companies, governments, and nonprofits.
EuroOSCON showcases the diversity in open source while maintaining a
practical edge.
http://conferences.oreilly.com/eurooscon/

Use code "euos05usrg" when you register, and receive 25% off the
registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/eurooscon/create/ord_euos05

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***Tim O'Reilly in the News

"The New York Times," September 28, "Search and Rescue"
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/09/ny_times_op_ed_on_authors_guil.html

"Wired," October 2005,  "The Trend Spotter":
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.10/oreilly.html


***What Is Web 2.0
Defining just what Web 2.0 means still engenders much disagreement. Some
decry it as a meaningless marketing buzzword, while others have accepted
it as the new conventional wisdom. Tim O'Reilly attempts to clarify just
what we mean by Web 2.0, digging into the implications of viewing the
web as a platform, which applications fall squarely under its purview,
and which do not.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html


***Beta Broadcast 002: Data for Web 2.0 
This week, O'Reilly's audio magazine program "Distributing the Future"
takes a look at the Data for Web 2.0. Tim O'Reilly explains "What is Web
2.0," Marc Hedlund ponders the browsers of the future that might
mash up the private data on your hard drive with data that lives on the
Web, NAVTEQ's Robert Denaro discusses why NAVTEQ drives so many miles
each day to gather the geographic information you use in your favorite
online mapping applications, Phil Torrone is already hacking the iPod
nano, and our "FOO Cast" is more of Richard Giles' Gadget show interview
with John Batelle. (24 minutes, 52 seconds)
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/09/23/distributing-the-future.html


***What Is Asterisk?
Asterisk is an open source PBX (private branch exchange) that provides
all the functionality of high-end business telephone systems, and much
more. Brian McConnell explains how Asterisk works, where to get it, and
provides an overview of its feature set and platform capabilities.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/09/30/what-is-asterisk.html


***Marking up your Designs with HTMLstamps
Alex shows you how to bridge the gap between Website designs
done in Photoshop (or any other graphics editor) and the HTML 
code required to make them real.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/09/22/marking-up-your-designs-with-htmlstamps/


***Opera goes free without ads
It's finally happened. Opera, the 3rd player in the browser market
(after Microsoft and Mozilla's Firefox), has finally made its popular
browser available for free--without embedded ads. Kevin Yank takes a
closer look at the move and what it means.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/09/20/opera-goes-free-without-ads/


***User Group Members receive a special 50% discount Learning 
 Lab Courses
As an O'Reilly User Group member, you save on all the courses in the
following University of Illinois Certificate Series:
-Linux/Unix System Administration 
-Web Programming
-Open Source Programming
-.NET Programming
-Client-Side

This offer ends December 31st, 2005.  To redeem, use Promotion Code
"ORALL1" to save 50%. Each course comes with a free O'Reilly book and a
7-day money-back guarantee. Register online:
http://learninglab.oreilly.com/

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***Perlcast Interviews Jesse Vincent, author of "RT Essentials"
http://perlcast.com/2005/09/29/interview-with-jesse-vincent/


***What Is Free Software?
Today, free software is a large body of high-quality code on which much
of the internet depends for critical functions. But free software is
much more than a collection of programs. Karl Fogel examines free
software under three different lights: as a political movement, as a
programming methodology, and as a business model. Karl is the author of
"Producing Open Source Software."
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/09/29/what-is-free-software.html


****Installing Debian 
Debian GNU/Linux is a powerful and popular community-developed Linux
distribution--and the basis for several other useful and usable
distributions. With the recent release of Debian Sarge, it's better than
ever. Edd Dumbill, Debian developer and GNU/Linux advocate, walks
through a typical installation.
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2005/09/29/installing_debian.html


***Backward Compatibility? We've Heard of It
PHP 5's release has sparked a PR disaster for the popular open source
programming language because of some significant backwards compatibility
issues.
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2005/09/15/backward-compatibility-weve-heard-of-it/


***Using FreeBSD's ACLs 
The standard Unix permissions scheme works fine if you have simple
needs, but juggling groups and users can grow unwieldy very quickly.
FreeBSD's Access Control Lists give you more control over who can access
files and directories. Dru Lavigne explains how to enable, understand,
and use them appropriately.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/09/22/FreeBSD_Basics.html

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***How to Set Up Backup 3 and Save Your Data 
Combined with a hefty 1GB of online storage, Backup 3 provides .Mac
subscribers with a robust, easy-to-use workflow for protecting their
most valuable data. In this tutorial, Derrick Story shows you how to get
the most out of version 3, using both your iDisk and DVDs for preserving
your work.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/09/23/backup3.html


***Installing Fink on Mac OS X 
The Fink project aims to port Unix software to Mac OS X and make it easy
to install. In this article, Koen Vervloesem shows you the ins and outs
of Fink, with some info about how it compares to DarwinPorts, another
package management system for Mac OS X.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/09/30/fink.html

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***What Is ASP.NET? 
Part of the .NET Framework, ASP.NET allows developers to build dynamic
web apps and web services using compiled languages like VB.NET and C#.
Wei-Meng Lee provides a look under the ASP.NET hood, describing how it
works, its improved support in areas like state management and tracing
and debugging, and important new features in version 2.0. Wei-Meng is
the author of "ASP.NET: A Developer's Notebook."
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/09/19/what-is-asp-net.html


***Using Windows Explorer with Alternate Credentials 
Running Windows using administrator credentials can be hazardous to the
health of your machine. Mitch Tulloch, author of "Windows Server Hacks,"
shows you how you can help solve the problem by using Windows Explorer
while running alternate credentials.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/09/20/using-windows-explorer-with-alternate-credentials.html


***What Is C#?
Jesse Liberty reveals this little-understood secret: C# is really one of
two "coatings" of MSIL, the Microsoft Intermediate Language (the second
is Visual Basic 2005). Both C# and VB 2005 produce MSIL, and it is MSIL
that runs on the .NET platform. Jesse provides an overview of the C#
language and how it works within the .NET platform, and concludes with
resources for coding in C#. Jesse is the author of "Programming C#, 4th
Edition."
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/10/03/what-is-csharp.html

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***What Is Quartz?
Java programmers: if you've ever needed an application to perform a task
at a specific time, automatically, Chuck Cavaness suggests you check out
the Quartz Scheduler. Cavaness looks at this open source job-scheduling
framework, explains where to get it, how it works, and reviews its
feature set.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/09/28/what-is-quartz.html


***What Is Hibernate?
Hibernate is a free open source Java package that makes it easy to work
with relational databases. James Elliott describes the "enlightened
laziness" that resulted in the development of Hibernate, how it works,
and when it makes good sense to use it in your projects. James is the
author of "Hibernate: A Developer's Notebook."
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/09/21/what-is-hibernate.html

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***Jack Herrington ("Podcasting Hacks") interviewed on the 
User Group Report on The MUG Center.
http://www.mugcenter.com/usergroupreport/2005/534.html
(You can also subscribe to this Podcast through iTunes.)


***Nate Howard: Midwestern Photographer in Iraq
A photojournalist from Rochester, Minnesota is assigned to cover a local
transportation unit on duty in Iraq. The images that Nate Howard
returned with document the Iraqi people and American soldiers from a
compassionate point of view.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/09/28/featured.html


***Julian Kwasneski: Inside Game Audio
If you've played Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, Indiana Jones, James
Bond, or any number of NBA, NFL, PGA, or NCCA console games, you've
likely heard the music and sound effects of Bay Area Sound. Cofounder
Julian Kwasneski takes us inside the process of optimizing audio for
games, then shares five MP3s.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/09/21/bas-kwasneski-game-audio.html

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***Make your own "PowerSquid"
Have you seen the "PowerSquid" on ThinkGeek? It's a very cool,
five-outlet power strip that allows you to plug in those bulky square
adapters. The Make team was going to order one, but they were out of
stock and so they made their own--with a total of eight outlets--for
almost half the price. Here's the simple cheap version.
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/09/how_to_make_your_own_powersqui.html


Try a Sample Project from MAKE:
http://makezine.com/samples/

MAKE Show Archive:
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/make_podcast/


***For more information on MAKE, go to:
http://www.makezine.com/


================================================
>From Your Peers
================================================
***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user
groups around the globe are up to:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi

Until next time--

Marsee Henon


================================================================
O'Reilly 
1005 Gravenstein Highway North  
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://www.oreilly.com
================================================================



Michael



From lists  Thu Oct  6 09:07:08 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:07:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] freebsd web
Message-ID: <20051006090708.22f0ac86@genoverly.com>

FreeBSD has launched a new look for its website; 
It looks clean and seems effective, nice job.  
Check it out: http://www.freebsd.org/

Is that the 'new logo' at the top?  

Michael



From nomadlogic  Thu Oct  6 11:10:12 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:10:12 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] freebsd web
In-Reply-To: <20051006090708.22f0ac86@genoverly.com>
References: <20051006090708.22f0ac86@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510060810y635eb0bel328da6bbd592ed20@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/05, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
>
> FreeBSD has launched a new look for its website;
> It looks clean and seems effective, nice job.
> Check it out: http://www.freebsd.org/
>
> Is that the 'new logo' at the top?



yea looks pretty similar to our site...i think we should send these guy's a
letter ;p
(actually it looks nothing like our site except for the navigation bar i
know)

i was following a thread on questions@ and it seems the new logo will be
getting rolled out in a little while, i guess they are finishing up voting
on it today.

-p

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nomadlogic  Thu Oct  6 11:11:58 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:11:58 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SFS: Self-certifying File System
In-Reply-To: <434490E6.7010209@sddi.net>
References: <434490E6.7010209@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000510060811j107cd910k2f0f0ecac5aaabbc@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/5/05, George R. <george at sddi.net> wrote:
>
> A number of us were talking about remote mapping of file systems
> securely after the NYCBUG meeting. . .
>
> It's SFS Self-certifying File System (it's in the fbsd ports in security/)
>
> Marco S told me about it. . . one of or *the* developer is David
> Mazieres, who I guess taught at NYU last semester, but is apparently at
> Stanford:
>
> http://www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/
>
> And SFS is here:
>
> http://www.fs.net/sfswww/
>
> Anyone have practical experience with it?



I obviously missed the discussion last night, but quickly checking our the
sfs site it sounds comparable to AFS. was there any discussion on how this
may be different than AFS?

-pete

g
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From marco  Thu Oct  6 11:44:33 2005
From: marco (Marco Scoffier)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:44:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SFS: Self-certifying File System
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510060811j107cd910k2f0f0ecac5aaabbc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <434490E6.7010209@sddi.net>
	<57d710000510060811j107cd910k2f0f0ecac5aaabbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051006154433.GI11680@ns.metm.org>

On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 08:11:58AM -0700, pete wright wrote:
>
>I obviously missed the discussion last night, but quickly checking our the
>sfs site it sounds comparable to AFS. was there any discussion on how this
>may be different than AFS?
>

Totally different security model.  SFS was designed to work over an insecure
network.  I believe the SFS codebase is much smaller, AFS has legacy creaks
and groans in the code.

Have been meaning to set this up for a while.  I know the security group
that David Mazieres heads uses this constantly.

Sorry I'm too busy to be around right now...

-- 
Marco



From mspitzer  Thu Oct  6 12:17:36 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 12:17:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] checkpoint bought sourcefire
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510060917o4724d076v4d15fa4ef0cb61b7@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.snort.org/about_snort/msg_from_marty/mr_100605.html
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From nomadlogic  Thu Oct  6 13:07:42 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:07:42 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] SFS: Self-certifying File System
In-Reply-To: <20051006154433.GI11680@ns.metm.org>
References: <434490E6.7010209@sddi.net>
	<57d710000510060811j107cd910k2f0f0ecac5aaabbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051006154433.GI11680@ns.metm.org>
Message-ID: <57d710000510061007o71b946ahb074ad7f1ec60ce9@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/6/05, Marco Scoffier <marco at metm.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 08:11:58AM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> >
> >I obviously missed the discussion last night, but quickly checking our
> the
> >sfs site it sounds comparable to AFS. was there any discussion on how
> this
> >may be different than AFS?
> >
>
> Totally different security model. SFS was designed to work over an
> insecure
> network. I believe the SFS codebase is much smaller, AFS has legacy creaks
> and groans in the code.
>
> Have been meaning to set this up for a while. I know the security group
> that David Mazieres heads uses this constantly.
>
> Sorry I'm too busy to be around right now...



execellent, I did a bit of reading up on this after my initial post and it
does seem very interesting indeed. it seems to me that distributed file
systems like this can solve alot of problems with mobile users...so i'll
have to start checking this guy out.

-p


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nikolai.fetissov  Thu Oct  6 14:33:45 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 14:33:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] October meeting audio
Message-ID: <2532.63.66.6.134.1128623625.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

Hi, folks,
mp3 of yesterday talk by Jan Schaumann is available at
http://www.peachisland.com/nycbug/
Sorry for the delay.
-- 
 nikolai



From lists  Thu Oct  6 18:35:47 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] freebsd web
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510060810y635eb0bel328da6bbd592ed20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051006090708.22f0ac86@genoverly.com>
	<57d710000510060810y635eb0bel328da6bbd592ed20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051006183512.U11156@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> yea looks pretty similar to our site...i think we should send these guy's a
> letter ;p

It looks clean.. although I kind of had gotten used to the previous look 
and feel.



From spork  Fri Oct  7 19:51:34 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:51:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Hi,

Anyone here know enough about java to know what the batik build failure is 
telling me?  Building as root, there should not be any resource problems, 
but the port fails with messages suggesting that some resource has been 
exhausted.  I've been in java hell all day.  All I wanted was to get this 
installed:

http://callflow.sourceforge.net/

No jre for 1.3 for 5.x, then the jdk build ate up all my free space, and 
now this with "batik".  Tried the package as well, but it does not like 
the revisions of some of the dependancies.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Charles

root at blarg[/usr/ports/graphics/batik]# make
===>  Building for batik-1.5.1_1
Buildfile: build.xml

init-args:

init:

compile:
      [echo] debug off, optimize on, deprecation on
     [javac] Compiling 1364 source files to 
/usr/local/ports/graphics/batik/work/xml-batik/classes


     [javac] The system is out of resources.
     [javac] Consult the following stack trace for details.

     [javac] java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
     [javac]     at java.lang.Object.clone(Native Method)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.code.Scope.dupUnshared(Scope.java:107)    [javac] 
at com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter.methodEnv(Enter.java:289)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter$MemberEnter._case(Enter.java:716)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.tree.Tree$MethodDef.visit(Tree.java:441)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter$MemberEnter.memberEnter(Enter.java:642)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter$MemberEnter.memberEnter(Enter.java:658)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter$CompleteEnter.finish(Enter.java:879)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter$CompleteEnter.complete(Enter.java:865)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.code.Symbol.complete(Symbol.java:366)
     [javac]     at com.sun.tools.javac.v8.comp.Enter.main(Enter.java:544)
     [javac]     at 
com.sun.tools.javac.v8.JavaCompiler.compile(JavaCompiler.java:357)
     [javac]     at com.sun.tools.javac.v8.Main.compile(Main.java:247)
     [javac]     at com.sun.tools.javac.Main.compile(Main.java:26)
     [javac]     at java.lang.reflect.Method.invoke(Native Method)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.compilers.Javac13.execute(Javac13.java:55)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Javac.compile(Javac.java:931)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Javac.execute(Javac.java:757)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.UnknownElement.execute(UnknownElement.java:275)
     [javac]     at org.apache.tools.ant.Task.perform(Task.java:364)
     [javac]     at org.apache.tools.ant.Target.execute(Target.java:341)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.Target.performTasks(Target.java:369)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.Project.executeSortedTargets(Project.java:1216)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.Project.executeTarget(Project.java:1185)    [javac] 
at 
org.apache.tools.ant.helper.DefaultExecutor.executeTargets(DefaultExecutor.java:40)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.Project.executeTargets(Project.java:1068)
     [javac]     at org.apache.tools.ant.Main.runBuild(Main.java:668)
     [javac]     at org.apache.tools.ant.Main.startAnt(Main.java:187)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.launch.Launcher.run(Launcher.java:246)
     [javac]     at 
org.apache.tools.ant.launch.Launcher.main(Launcher.java:67)

BUILD FAILED
/usr/local/ports/graphics/batik/work/xml-batik/build.xml:368: Compile 
failed; see the compiler error output for details.

Total time: 2 minutes 40 seconds
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/local/ports/graphics/batik.




From nomadlogic  Fri Oct  7 20:14:30 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 17:14:30 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Anyone here know enough about java to know what the batik build failure is
> telling me? Building as root, there should not be any resource problems,
> but the port fails with messages suggesting that some resource has been
> exhausted. I've been in java hell all day. All I wanted was to get this
> installed:
>
> http://callflow.sourceforge.net/
>
> No jre for 1.3 for 5.x, then the jdk build ate up all my free space, and
> now this with "batik". Tried the package as well, but it does not like
> the revisions of some of the dependancies.



Any ideas?


Looks like an Out Of Memory error...which may be due to some wierness with
the JRE. How much RAM is on this guy? Would it be possible to build it on
another host with more RAM as a portable package?

-pete





--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From spork  Fri Oct  7 20:45:36 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> On 10/7/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
>>
>> http://callflow.sourceforge.net/
>>
>> No jre for 1.3 for 5.x, then the jdk build ate up all my free space, and
>> now this with "batik". Tried the package as well, but it does not like
>> the revisions of some of the dependancies.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> Looks like an Out Of Memory error...which may be due to some wierness with
> the JRE. How much RAM is on this guy? Would it be possible to build it on
> another host with more RAM as a portable package?

It's got 256MB, and it's normally a tertiary desktop.  But X is not 
running at the moment, so most of the memory is unused.

I may be able to dig up another 5.x, but I'm leery about letting the jdk 
install all the crap it needs to build (need linux compat, linux_base, 
OpenMotif, and a whole laundry list of other stuff).  If I could avoid 
that, I'd be happy.

Thanks,

Charles

> -pete
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ~~o0OO0o~~
> Pete Wright
> www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
> NYC's *BSD User Group
>



From nomadlogic  Fri Oct  7 21:05:28 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:05:28 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510071805u32bc60dbs35e12f5ac444d6df@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/7/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:
>
> > On 10/7/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://callflow.sourceforge.net/
> >>
> >> No jre for 1.3 for 5.x, then the jdk build ate up all my free space,
> and
> >> now this with "batik". Tried the package as well, but it does not like
> >> the revisions of some of the dependancies.
> >>
> >> Any ideas?
> >
> > Looks like an Out Of Memory error...which may be due to some wierness
> with
> > the JRE. How much RAM is on this guy? Would it be possible to build it
> on
> > another host with more RAM as a portable package?
>
> It's got 256MB, and it's normally a tertiary desktop. But X is not
> running at the moment, so most of the memory is unused.
>
> I may be able to dig up another 5.x, but I'm leery about letting the jdk
> install all the crap it needs to build (need linux compat, linux_base,
> OpenMotif, and a whole laundry list of other stuff). If I could avoid
> that, I'd be happy.



yea that sounds sketchy. Although, I'm not suprised that it's complaining
about olny having 256megs. While it may be enough to get the jre up and
running, it may become an issue while compiling code and extracting jar's
etc...sounds like a fun problem to work around ;)

-p




--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nikolai.fetissov  Fri Oct  7 21:24:02 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 21:24:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>	<57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <43471FB2.4000500@peachisland.com>

Charles Sprickman wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:
> 
>> On 10/7/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://callflow.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>> No jre for 1.3 for 5.x, then the jdk build ate up all my free space, and
>>> now this with "batik". Tried the package as well, but it does not like
>>> the revisions of some of the dependancies.
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>
>>
>> Looks like an Out Of Memory error...which may be due to some wierness
>> with
>> the JRE. How much RAM is on this guy? Would it be possible to build it on
>> another host with more RAM as a portable package?
> 
> 
> It's got 256MB, and it's normally a tertiary desktop.  But X is not
> running at the moment, so most of the memory is unused.
> 
> I may be able to dig up another 5.x, but I'm leery about letting the jdk
> install all the crap it needs to build (need linux compat, linux_base,
> OpenMotif, and a whole laundry list of other stuff).  If I could avoid
> that, I'd be happy.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Charles
> 
>> -pete
>>

It's not the physical ram, it's the jvm heap size limit.
Dig around ant config to see if you can increase that.
I don't have java on a bsd box, this is under gentoo:

nickf at paris ~ $ /home/SUNWappserver/jdk/bin/java -X
    -Xmixed           mixed mode execution (default)
    -Xint             interpreted mode execution only
    -Xbootclasspath:<directories and zip/jar files separated by :>
                      set search path for bootstrap classes and resources
    -Xbootclasspath/a:<directories and zip/jar files separated by :>
                      append to end of bootstrap class path
    -Xbootclasspath/p:<directories and zip/jar files separated by :>
                      prepend in front of bootstrap class path
    -Xnoclassgc       disable class garbage collection
    -Xincgc           enable incremental garbage collection
    -Xloggc:<file>    log GC status to a file with time stamps
    -Xbatch           disable background compilation
    -Xms<size>        set initial Java heap size
    -Xmx<size>        set maximum Java heap size
    -Xss<size>        set java thread stack size
    -Xprof            output cpu profiling data
    -Xrunhprof[:help]|[:<option>=<value>, ...]
                      perform JVMPI heap, cpu, or monitor profiling
    -Xdebug           enable remote debugging
    -Xfuture          enable strictest checks, anticipating future default
    -Xrs              reduce use of OS signals by Java/VM (see
documentation)
    -Xcheck:jni       perform additional checks for JNI functions

The -X options are non-standard and subject to change without notice.
nickf at paris ~ $

Hope this helps.
--
 nikolai



From jschauma  Sat Oct  8 12:57:58 2005
From: jschauma (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 12:57:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20051008165757.GA4278@netmeister.org>

Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
 
> Anyone here know enough about java to know what the batik build failure is 
> telling me?

What are your ulimits?

I know that Java being the pig that it is wants to have bumped some of
them.  For my users, I set the following in /etc/profile:

ulimit -d 1048576
ulimit -s 32768

-Jan

-- 
http://www.eff.org
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From spork  Sat Oct  8 17:18:12 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:18:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <43471FB2.4000500@peachisland.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43471FB2.4000500@peachisland.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510081713180.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Nikolai N. Fetissov wrote:

> It's not the physical ram, it's the jvm heap size limit.
> Dig around ant config to see if you can increase that.
> I don't have java on a bsd box, this is under gentoo:

That looks very interesting.  I found a "build.sh" file in the build 
directory that has a line like this:

build.sh:$JAVA_HOME/bin/java $ANT_OPTS -classpath $CP 
org.apache.tools.ant.Main -emacs -Dant.home=$ANT_HOME $TARGET -Dargs="$*"

I tried adding a "-Xmx100000000" (not knowing what units are being used - 
bytes, kb, mb...) and it still failed with the same error.  Grepping for 
"ANT_OPTS" only turned up the following:

root at blarg[/usr/ports/graphics/batik/work/xml-batik]# grep ANT_OPTS *
build.bat:%JAVA_HOME%\bin\java.exe %ANT_OPTS% -classpath %CP% 
org.apache.tools.ant.Main -emacs -Dant.home=. %1 -Dargs="%2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 
%8 %9"
build.sh:$JAVA_HOME/bin/java -Xmx100000000 $ANT_OPTS -classpath $CP 
org.apache.tools.ant.Main -emacs -Dant.home=$ANT_HOME $TARGET -Dargs="$*"

I do think you're right though that this is a java issue.  My ulimits show 
"unlimited" on everything.

I'll dig around a bit more and see if I can figure out just how the build 
process works - I'm totally unfamiliar with java.

thanks,

Charles

> nickf at paris ~ $ /home/SUNWappserver/jdk/bin/java -X
>    -Xmixed           mixed mode execution (default)
>    -Xint             interpreted mode execution only
>    -Xbootclasspath:<directories and zip/jar files separated by :>
>                      set search path for bootstrap classes and resources
>    -Xbootclasspath/a:<directories and zip/jar files separated by :>
>                      append to end of bootstrap class path
>    -Xbootclasspath/p:<directories and zip/jar files separated by :>
>                      prepend in front of bootstrap class path
>    -Xnoclassgc       disable class garbage collection
>    -Xincgc           enable incremental garbage collection
>    -Xloggc:<file>    log GC status to a file with time stamps
>    -Xbatch           disable background compilation
>    -Xms<size>        set initial Java heap size
>    -Xmx<size>        set maximum Java heap size
>    -Xss<size>        set java thread stack size
>    -Xprof            output cpu profiling data
>    -Xrunhprof[:help]|[:<option>=<value>, ...]
>                      perform JVMPI heap, cpu, or monitor profiling
>    -Xdebug           enable remote debugging
>    -Xfuture          enable strictest checks, anticipating future default
>    -Xrs              reduce use of OS signals by Java/VM (see
> documentation)
>    -Xcheck:jni       perform additional checks for JNI functions
>
> The -X options are non-standard and subject to change without notice.
> nickf at paris ~ $
>
> Hope this helps.
> --
> nikolai
>



From nikolai.fetissov  Sat Oct  8 19:22:01 2005
From: nikolai.fetissov (Nikolai N. Fetissov)
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 19:22:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510081713180.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43471FB2.4000500@peachisland.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510081713180.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <43485499.90006@peachisland.com>

Charles Sprickman wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Nikolai N. Fetissov wrote:
> 
>> It's not the physical ram, it's the jvm heap size limit.
>> Dig around ant config to see if you can increase that.
>> I don't have java on a bsd box, this is under gentoo:
> 
> 
> That looks very interesting.  I found a "build.sh" file in the build
> directory that has a line like this:
> 
> build.sh:$JAVA_HOME/bin/java $ANT_OPTS -classpath $CP
> org.apache.tools.ant.Main -emacs -Dant.home=$ANT_HOME $TARGET -Dargs="$*"
> 
> I tried adding a "-Xmx100000000" (not knowing what units are being used
> - bytes, kb, mb...) and it still failed with the same error.  Grepping
> for "ANT_OPTS" only turned up the following:
> 
> root at blarg[/usr/ports/graphics/batik/work/xml-batik]# grep ANT_OPTS *
> build.bat:%JAVA_HOME%\bin\java.exe %ANT_OPTS% -classpath %CP%
> org.apache.tools.ant.Main -emacs -Dant.home=. %1 -Dargs="%2 %3 %4 %5 %6
> %7 %8 %9"
> build.sh:$JAVA_HOME/bin/java -Xmx100000000 $ANT_OPTS -classpath $CP
> org.apache.tools.ant.Main -emacs -Dant.home=$ANT_HOME $TARGET -Dargs="$*"
> 
> I do think you're right though that this is a java issue.  My ulimits
> show "unlimited" on everything.
> 
> I'll dig around a bit more and see if I can figure out just how the
> build process works - I'm totally unfamiliar with java.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Charles

Here's a man page for java executable:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/tooldocs/windows/java.html
Looks like that value should be multiple of 1024 - try that.
--
 nikolai



From spork  Sat Oct  8 20:26:55 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:26:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] java/batik problems
In-Reply-To: <43485499.90006@peachisland.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510071947590.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<57d710000510071714x2a93413crb2dbc28f64aefad7@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510072040040.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43471FB2.4000500@peachisland.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510081713180.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<43485499.90006@peachisland.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510082011330.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Nikolai N. Fetissov wrote:

> Here's a man page for java executable:
> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/tooldocs/windows/java.html
> Looks like that value should be multiple of 1024 - try that.

Thanks...  Didn't fix it, but I do have it built.

I was reading the "build.xml" file and one of the things mentioned there 
to aid debugging was to but "debug=on" in the build.properties file.  I 
did that in hopes of gathering more info.  Oddly enough, it builds 
successfully when that is enabled.

Odd.

If I do it again without the debug flag it bombs.

Charles

> --
> nikolai
>



From lists  Sun Oct  9 09:25:37 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:25:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] hostapd(8)
Message-ID: <20051009092537.1d5fa3c1@genoverly.com>

"A new daemon, the new OpenBSD hostapd(8), will be included in the
upcoming 3.8 release. The daemon helps to improve roaming and monitoring
of OpenBSD-based wireless networks. A powerful feature, event rules,
will introduce a new kind of proactive wireless monitoring. WLAN is a
battle field, and hostapd helps to keep track of your systems, unwanted
wireless visitors, and rogue accesspoints. 

Read on for some amazing (and possibly controversial) examples of how
this new tool can be used."

http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20051008150710

Michael



From lists  Sun Oct  9 11:05:59 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:05:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
Message-ID: <20051009110559.71740513@genoverly.com>

Over the past week I have installed PostgreSQL 8.0.3 on: 
OpenBSD -current 	(packages)
FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE	(ports)

The install goes well, but each time.. the initdb failed.  

According to their documentations..
(http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.0/interactive/kernel-resources.html)
The default semaphores needed adjustment, and suggest a custom kernel.

OpenBSD (not chroot'd)
----------------------
I did not deviate from a generic kernel, but, the following 
additions to /etc/sysctl.conf helped:
kern.seminfo.semmni=40
kern.seminfo.semmns=240

FreeBSD (jail)
----------------------
This was not successful for me.  I have learned that the core of this
issue is PostgreSQL uses SysV shared memory instead of POSIX shared
memory.  By default, FreeBSD does not allow using SysV memory on a per
jail basis. This would require a jail host setting that is accross all
jails: security.jail.sysvipc_allowed=1.  While it is very difficult and
unlikely one would experience a SysV exploit, this is considered by some
to be an unsafe setting in some threat models.

Has anyone else run into this problem?  And have you had any success
running PostgreSQL in a FreeBSD jail or OpenBSD chroot?

Michael



From matt  Mon Oct 10 18:59:15 2005
From: matt (Matthew Terenzio)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:59:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php5-openssl
Message-ID: <6f2addfd9415819ad207fbdd5a6d3950@jobsforge.com>

On FreeBSD 5.3:
I wanted to add OpenSSL to PHP and tried the php5-openssl port.
Perhaps I naively expected it to just install with make install but I 
got:

"/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 1: Need an operator
"/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 3: Need an operator
"/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 4: Need an operator
"/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 5: Need an operator
"/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 6: Need an operator

etc, etc. etc.

PHP Version 5.0.4 is running finely on this box already. What's "need 
an operator" trying to tell me?
Dial 0 and talk to nasal women on the other end : )




From nomadlogic  Mon Oct 10 19:59:27 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:59:27 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php5-openssl
In-Reply-To: <6f2addfd9415819ad207fbdd5a6d3950@jobsforge.com>
References: <6f2addfd9415819ad207fbdd5a6d3950@jobsforge.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510101659k7f70280di830bd5202b5cb640@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/10/05, Matthew Terenzio <matt at jobsforge.com> wrote:
>
> On FreeBSD 5.3:
> I wanted to add OpenSSL to PHP and tried the php5-openssl port.
> Perhaps I naively expected it to just install with make install but I
> got:
>
> "/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 1: Need an operator
> "/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 3: Need an operator
> "/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 4: Need an operator
> "/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 5: Need an operator
> "/usr/local/etc/php.conf", line 6: Need an operator
>
> etc, etc. etc.
>
> PHP Version 5.0.4 is running finely on this box already. What's "need
> an operator" trying to tell me?
> Dial 0 and talk to nasal women on the other end : )



when are you getting this error...during the build phase, at run time? if it
is happening at runtime, have your checked your /usr/local/etc/php.conf file
for more information? in any event we need more info.
-pete



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From lists  Mon Oct 10 20:01:21 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:01:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
In-Reply-To: <20051009110559.71740513@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <009601c5cdf6$eb5b1130$6501a8c0@MZ>



michael wrote on Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:06 AM:
> Over the past week I have installed PostgreSQL 8.0.3 on:
> OpenBSD -current 	(packages)
> FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE	(ports)
> 
> The install goes well, but each time.. the initdb failed.
> 
> According to their documentations..
> (http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.0/interactive/kernel-resources.html)
> The default semaphores needed adjustment, and suggest a custom kernel.
> 
> OpenBSD (not chroot'd)
> ----------------------
> I did not deviate from a generic kernel, but, the following
> additions to /etc/sysctl.conf helped:
> kern.seminfo.semmni=40
> kern.seminfo.semmns=240
> 
> FreeBSD (jail)
> ----------------------
> This was not successful for me.  I have learned that the core of this
> issue is PostgreSQL uses SysV shared memory instead of POSIX shared
> memory.  By default, FreeBSD does not allow using SysV memory on a per
> jail basis. This would require a jail host setting that is accross all
> jails: security.jail.sysvipc_allowed=1.  While it is very difficult and
> unlikely one would experience a SysV exploit, this is considered by some
> to be an unsafe setting in some threat models.
> 
> Has anyone else run into this problem?  And have you had any success
> running PostgreSQL in a FreeBSD jail or OpenBSD chroot?

Yeah, this is a current limitation, and I'm not aware of any ways around it.
While speaking with Bruce (who also mentioned this during his presentation
at NYCBSDCon) there might be some architecture changes in future PGSQL
releases that will eliminate this problem, however it sounded like it's
still in very-very early stages of discussion.


---
Hans Zaunere / President / New York PHP
   www.nyphp.org  /  www.nyphp.com





From hubert  Mon Oct 10 20:20:23 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 02:20:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510110218510.26629@m24s24.vlinux.de>


[Problems with making PostgreSQL 'secure' on FreeBSD and OpenBSD]
> Yeah, this is a current limitation, and I'm not aware of any ways around it.

Maybe check it out in NetBSD/Xen. Should work.
http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/xen/howto.html


  - Hubert



From matt  Mon Oct 10 21:48:19 2005
From: matt (Matthew Terenzio)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:48:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] php5-openssl
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510101659k7f70280di830bd5202b5cb640@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f2addfd9415819ad207fbdd5a6d3950@jobsforge.com>
	<57d710000510101659k7f70280di830bd5202b5cb640@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5a5e8f44c19257247a8d39bf23a2f9ed@jobsforge.com>


On Oct 10, 2005, at 7:59 PM, pete wright wrote:

>  when are you getting this error...during the build phase, at run 
> time?? if it is happening at runtime, have your checked your 
> /usr/local/etc/php.conf file for more information?? in any event we 
> need more info.
>  -pete

Sorry Pete, I thought it was implicit that this is during the build.

Anyway, for future readers, you need to have OpenSSL installed first. 
Duh.
But I did expect it to be there already or for the port to 
automatically download and install dependencies.
I mean, this isn't Linux here. : )
Funny how working through issues with some operating systems tends to 
make you dislike the given system and with others love the system more 
and more.






From alexgill  Mon Oct 10 23:18:53 2005
From: alexgill (Gill, Alex)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:18:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Agenda for October 18 Perl Seminar NY Meeting]
Message-ID: <434B2F1D.80508@tekwerx.biz>


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Subject: Agenda for October 18 Perl Seminar NY Meeting
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From max  Tue Oct 11 10:05:59 2005
From: max (Max Gribov)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 10:05:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: [Snort-announce] Meet Marty Roesch in NY -
 Learn the Future of Snort!]
Message-ID: <434BC6C7.7090502@neuropunks.org>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[Snort-announce] Meet Marty Roesch in NY - Learn the Future of
Snort!
Date: 	Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:13:35 -0400
From: 	Jennifer Talcott <jennifer.talcott at sourcefire.com>
Organization: 	Sourcefire, Inc.
To: 	<snort-announce at lists.sourceforge.net>



Hey Everyone,

Due to an increasing amount of interest recently in forming a New York City
Snort User Group, we've decided to invite all of the users in the area to
join Marty and the team for an upcoming presentation. IBM has offered to
sponsor a meeting where Marty will be discussing Target-based IDS: The
Future of the Industry. Join us for great Snort conversation, drinks, and
(of course) Snort shwag!

Presentation Topic:
First generation solutions, including IPS, suffer from lack of information
that leads to ambiguity - sensors operate with no compositional knowledge of
the network components they are defending, leading to false
positives/negatives and evasions. To solve this, Sourcefire is developing a
target-based detection engine that auto-configures itself in real-time based
on the attributes of the targeted system. This methodology requires a
continuous feed of all the attribute data for all the devices on the
protected network, even as it evolves - information provided by Sourcefire
RNA. The system will work by feeding attribute data from RNA, enabling
policy application to occur at a per-flow level of granularity, which will
maximize the blocking capability while minimizing chances of accidental DoS
as a result of false positives or misapplication of policies to improper
targets.

Date and Time:
November 10th, 2005
5:30 - 7:00 PM
Cocktails Afterward - Location TBA

Location:
IBM New York City Office
590 Madison
New York, NY

Register here: http://www.snort.org/registrations/rsvp.html
Please note: RSVP is required for building access

Questions or comments can be directed to snort-marketing at sourcefire.com.



-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.Net email is sponsored by:
Power Architecture Resource Center: Free content, downloads, discussions,
and more. http://solutions.newsforge.com/ibmarch.tmpl
_______________________________________________
Snort-announce mailing list
Snort-announce at lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/snort-announce





From ike  Tue Oct 11 11:45:21 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:45:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510110218510.26629@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510110218510.26629@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <BFF6D308-5E4D-473B-BDCE-71B9002BE2D7@lesmuug.org>

Hey There Hubert,

On Oct 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Hubert Feyrer wrote:

> [Problems with making PostgreSQL 'secure' on FreeBSD and OpenBSD]
>
>> Yeah, this is a current limitation, and I'm not aware of any ways  
>> around it.
>>
>
> Maybe check it out in NetBSD/Xen. Should work.
> http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/xen/howto.html

Work like how?
If you mean it works like it runs, that's fine- PostgreSQL runs on  
RedHat too.

If you mean it runs in a securely confined space via Xen/NetBSD, I'd  
love to hear more explination-

Rocket-
.ike



>
>
>  - Hubert




From nomadlogic  Tue Oct 11 12:03:57 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 09:03:57 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Freindly Reminder
Message-ID: <57d710000510110903j80a18bbmdc9fd5afbfe34806@mail.gmail.com>

Hey All,
Just want to throw out there that there is a submission page for links,
stories or other things that you may feel is appropriate for our annouce@
list. If you point your web browser to:

http://www.nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Submission

You will find a nice little submission form in place to submit these
stories, links or reposts from other lists that may be interesting to folks,
but may be considered off topic on our general talk@ list. The main issue is
that by reposting emails from other lists will be considered redundant by
most people who are interested in the topic you are posting about, or
completely off topic by people who are not interested. It also has the added
advantage of keeping our archives clean of this "spam" for folks trying to
track down threads at a latter date.

Thx,
-pete


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From hubert  Tue Oct 11 12:36:39 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:36:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510111835190.15636@m24s24.vlinux.de>


On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> If you mean it runs in a securely confined space via Xen/NetBSD, I'd love to 
> hear more explination-

Well, why do you put it in jail/chroot? :)

Xen gives you the possibility to run several seperate machine instances 
("domains") on one machine, and if one gets hax0red, the other one's not 
affected. There's a special "domain 0" which is the first one and used to 
control all others - it should be kept esp. secure, I know people that only 
give it local/console access, no network at all - even their firewalls run 
inside different domain then, applications too.

More:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/
http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/xen/

There's also a working port of FreeBSD to Xen, FWIW; to play & see it working, 
check out their Live CD, which has Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD on it: 
http://www.feyrer.de/NetBSD/oldblog001.html#20050421_0041


  - Hubert



From george  Tue Oct 11 18:12:57 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:12:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Local guy make big. . 
Message-ID: <434C38E9.70201@sddi.net>

Francisco R's OnLamp piece on IMAP with Cyrus. . .

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2275

g



From lists  Tue Oct 11 21:37:38 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:37:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Local guy make big. . 
In-Reply-To: <434C38E9.70201@sddi.net>
References: <434C38E9.70201@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <20051011212648.K41467@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:

> Francisco R's OnLamp piece on IMAP with Cyrus. . .
> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2275

Thanks for the mention.

Funny thing.. shortly after doing that article got a job working at an 
email provider... that uses Courier IMAP. :-)

Currently pitching to Oreilly a Postfix + Courier +Postgresql.. and going 
the next step on Postfix.. with some anti-spam rules, postgrey.. and maybe 
SMTP authentication..

For all the talk about how Courier is easier than Cyrus I must say I found 
much more on Cyrus that I am finding about courier.

Having inheritted nearly 20 machines I have had little time to do the 
postmaster side.. only now starting to get involved on that side and I 
must say that I love Postfix even more now.



From lists  Tue Oct 11 21:43:54 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:43:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
In-Reply-To: <20051009110559.71740513@genoverly.com>
References: <20051009110559.71740513@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <20051011214041.T41467@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, michael wrote:

> Over the past week I have installed PostgreSQL 8.0.3 on:
> OpenBSD -current 	(packages)
> FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE	(ports)
>
> The install goes well, but each time.. the initdb failed.

> Has anyone else run into this problem?  And have you had any success
> running PostgreSQL in a FreeBSD jail or OpenBSD chroot?

Although I don't have an answer I do know someone who may know.. The folks 
at hub.org/postgresql inc.. run lots and lots of jails (Marc the owner has 
several times bumped into issues due to the number of jails and has posted 
on the postgreSQL lists).

If you write to the postgreSQL general list you probably will get some 
more feedback in the matter too..



From lists  Tue Oct 11 21:49:13 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:49:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Local guy make big. .
In-Reply-To: <20051011212648.K41467@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <434C38E9.70201@sddi.net>
	<20051011212648.K41467@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051011214913.44d481d3@genoverly.com>

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:37:38 -0400 (EDT)
Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
> 
> > Francisco R's OnLamp piece on IMAP with Cyrus. . .
> > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2275
> 
> Thanks for the mention.
> 
> Funny thing.. shortly after doing that article got a job working at an
> email provider... that uses Courier IMAP. :-)
> 
> Currently pitching to Oreilly a Postfix + Courier +Postgresql.. and
> going  the next step on Postfix.. with some anti-spam rules,
> postgrey.. and maybe  SMTP authentication..
> 
> For all the talk about how Courier is easier than Cyrus I must say I
> found  much more on Cyrus that I am finding about courier.
> 
> Having inheritted nearly 20 machines I have had little time to do the 
> postmaster side.. only now starting to get involved on that side and I
> must say that I love Postfix even more now.

damn.. I'm more than half way thru a paper on that topic.  Guess I'll
just publish on NYCBUG. <grin>

Michael



From lists  Tue Oct 11 21:51:27 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:51:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
In-Reply-To: <20051011214041.T41467@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20051009110559.71740513@genoverly.com>
	<20051011214041.T41467@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051011215127.2fee22a7@genoverly.com>

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:43:54 -0400 (EDT)
Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005, michael wrote:
> 
> > Over the past week I have installed PostgreSQL 8.0.3 on:
> > OpenBSD -current 	(packages)
> > FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE	(ports)
> >
> > The install goes well, but each time.. the initdb failed.
> 
> > Has anyone else run into this problem?  And have you had any success
> > running PostgreSQL in a FreeBSD jail or OpenBSD chroot?
> 
> Although I don't have an answer I do know someone who may know.. The
> folks  at hub.org/postgresql inc.. run lots and lots of jails (Marc
> the owner has  several times bumped into issues due to the number of
> jails and has posted  on the postgreSQL lists).
> 
> If you write to the postgreSQL general list you probably will get some
> more feedback in the matter too..

Thanks Francisco, I joined that list and have been reading the archives.
 If I don't find the answer, I may move in that direction.

Michael



From briank  Tue Oct 11 23:45:40 2005
From: briank (Brian Kilpatrick)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:45:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
Message-ID: <B2A90346-3B8A-4321-9DCD-AB6AE7CB807E@sraapowergres.com>

Hiya,

I bounced this to Bruce Momjian, and he responds:

You have to do a sysctl to allow shared memory in jails.

Good Luck and carry on!

brian



From lists  Wed Oct 12 00:06:24 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:06:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
In-Reply-To: <B2A90346-3B8A-4321-9DCD-AB6AE7CB807E@sraapowergres.com>
References: <B2A90346-3B8A-4321-9DCD-AB6AE7CB807E@sraapowergres.com>
Message-ID: <20051012000510.V42136@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Brian Kilpatrick wrote:

> I bounced this to Bruce Momjian, and he responds:

I bonced the email to Marc Fournier. He said that he has numerous 
instances of PostgreSQL running under multiple jails. I asked him for any 
specific changes he did and he did not recall any special settings they 
had done.



From lists  Wed Oct 12 00:08:25 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:08:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Local guy make big. .
In-Reply-To: <20051011214913.44d481d3@genoverly.com>
References: <434C38E9.70201@sddi.net>
	<20051011212648.K41467@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051011214913.44d481d3@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <20051012000652.W42136@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005, michael wrote:

> damn.. I'm more than half way thru a paper on that topic.  Guess I'll
> just publish on NYCBUG. <grin>

If you are already half way there go ahead. I can put you in contact with 
the editor.. let me know what you plan to write about.. I will either 
cover something else related.. or will choose a different topic. They like 
to work with many editors.



From spork  Wed Oct 12 03:12:49 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:12:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] multiport serial cards
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510120305580.2731@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

Hi all,

I've got a (FreeBSD) console server that's got two 8-port Rocketport cards 
in it.  I need to ditch these as they have two problems:  the driver is 
kind of flakey and basically abandoned, and I'm already three ports short 
of what I need and we're still adding servers.

Stallion looked nice, specifically this setup:

http://www.stallion.com/html/products/easyconnection.html

Density is great, 64 ports per card.  Price is right too.  However every 
retailer has these on backorder, and it seems like the stl driver did not 
make it to 5.x.

This all makes me feel like some old unix nerd.  When I post on the 
FreeBSD lists it's just crickets. :)

Anyone here have recommendations on decent cards that cost less than 
buying a standalone console server?  I'd like a minimum of 32 ports on a 
single card...

Thanks,

Charles



From ike  Wed Oct 12 13:05:38 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:05:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
Message-ID: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

I'm re-evaluating SNMP tools (primarily for trapping) right now for  
different deployments, CoLo and local network, and I'd like to settle  
on one to use long-term.  Anyone have any recommendations?  Loves/ 
Hate any in particular?

I'm not interested in a big app which does SNMP trapping, (Nagios/ 
NetSaint, Big Brother, etc...), used all that stuff in the past- not  
too exited.

I'm looking for simple shell tools and daemons, with clean, simple  
interfaces.  Bells and whistles are just going to be stripped off and  
tossed in the bitbucket...

--
So far I'm going to try Net-SNMP,

http://net-snmp.sourceforge.net/

Which looks to have a lot of other tools wrapped around it, including  
this Python module,

http://yapsnmp.sourceforge.net/intro.html

--
Any good experiences, urls?

Rocket-
.ike






From steve.rieger  Wed Oct 12 13:17:34 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:17:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
In-Reply-To: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
References: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <69EAEB10-AFA6-4F9D-BA23-271E4857CBB2@tbwachiat.com>

why do trapping when you can use mrtg


On Oct 12, 2005, at 1:05 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> I'm re-evaluating SNMP tools (primarily for trapping) right now for  
> different deployments, CoLo and local network, and I'd like to  
> settle on one to use long-term.  Anyone have any recommendations?   
> Loves/Hate any in particular?
>
> I'm not interested in a big app which does SNMP trapping, (Nagios/ 
> NetSaint, Big Brother, etc...), used all that stuff in the past-  
> not too exited.
>
> I'm looking for simple shell tools and daemons, with clean, simple  
> interfaces.  Bells and whistles are just going to be stripped off  
> and tossed in the bitbucket...
>
> --
> So far I'm going to try Net-SNMP,
>
> http://net-snmp.sourceforge.net/
>
> Which looks to have a lot of other tools wrapped around it,  
> including this Python module,
>
> http://yapsnmp.sourceforge.net/intro.html
>
> --
> Any good experiences, urls?
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>
>















--
Steve Rieger
Cell      646-335-8915
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve
ICQ 53956607

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq  
light)                                                                   
   If light were dark and dark were light
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} ==  
black_hole)                                                The moon a  
black hole in the blaze of night
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})) 
{                                                  A raven's wing as  
bright as tin
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} +  
1;                                                            A  
raven's wing as bright as tin
};



I had the blues because I had no shoes until upon the street, I met a  
man who had no feet.

Biker Blue







From nomadlogic  Wed Oct 12 13:37:26 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 10:37:26 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
In-Reply-To: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
References: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <57d710000510121037w5e955481k4b5f7947a7e51c75@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/12/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> I'm re-evaluating SNMP tools (primarily for trapping) right now for
> different deployments, CoLo and local network, and I'd like to settle
> on one to use long-term. Anyone have any recommendations? Loves/
> Hate any in particular?
>
> I'm not interested in a big app which does SNMP trapping, (Nagios/
> NetSaint, Big Brother, etc...), used all that stuff in the past- not
> too exited.
>
> I'm looking for simple shell tools and daemons, with clean, simple
> interfaces. Bells and whistles are just going to be stripped off and
> tossed in the bitbucket...
>
> --
> So far I'm going to try Net-SNMP,



We use net-snmp and it's assortied utilites pretty heavilly here. There is a
wealth of info you can get from snmp, and it can be extended very easilly
via sh/perl and python (although I have yet to write any python-snmp code
here). We are primarilly using our snmp utils in conjunction with nagios,
although that is not say you need nagios to help present the data you can
collect. While I understand not wanting to run nagios, the plugins available
for it may be a good starting point to see how SNMP can be used to gather
system information in general (if you don't mind reading through perl/sh
code ;).



-pete

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From okan  Wed Oct 12 13:38:45 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:37:45 -0401
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
In-Reply-To: <69EAEB10-AFA6-4F9D-BA23-271E4857CBB2@tbwachiat.com>
References: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
	<69EAEB10-AFA6-4F9D-BA23-271E4857CBB2@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20051012173807.GC4236@nitrogen.khaoz.org>

On Wed 2005.10.12 at 13:17 -0400, Steve Rieger wrote:
> why do trapping when you can use mrtg

uh? polling and trapping are different. when was the last time mrtg
told you named(8) was down? unless of course you your eyes glued to the
pretty graphs...

cheers



From okan  Wed Oct 12 13:43:06 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:43:06 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
In-Reply-To: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
References: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20051012174328.GA5809@nitrogen.khaoz.org>

On Wed 2005.10.12 at 13:05 -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
> 
> I'm re-evaluating SNMP tools (primarily for trapping) right now for  
> different deployments, CoLo and local network, and I'd like to settle  
> on one to use long-term.  Anyone have any recommendations?  Loves/ 
> Hate any in particular?
> 
> I'm not interested in a big app which does SNMP trapping, (Nagios/ 
> NetSaint, Big Brother, etc...), used all that stuff in the past- not  
> too exited.
> 
> I'm looking for simple shell tools and daemons, with clean, simple  
> interfaces.  Bells and whistles are just going to be stripped off and  
> tossed in the bitbucket...
> 
> --
> So far I'm going to try Net-SNMP,
> 
> http://net-snmp.sourceforge.net/

yea, so in my old job, we had a big 'ol implementation of mostly pure,
then, ucd-snmp, with all sorts of extensions that we wrote. worked well
for us. the noc had the then netsaint (now nagios) for their pretty
viewing.



From o_sleep  Wed Oct 12 13:45:46 2005
From: o_sleep (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 13:45:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510121037w5e955481k4b5f7947a7e51c75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
	<57d710000510121037w5e955481k4b5f7947a7e51c75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7083F972-1BB2-4774-ADA4-AE2B394B03CE@belovedarctos.com>

On Oct 12, 2005, at 1:37 PM, pete wright wrote:
>
> We use net-snmp and it's assortied utilites pretty heavilly here.   
> There is a wealth of info you can get from snmp, and it can be  
> extended very easilly via sh/perl and python (although I have yet  
> to write any python-snmp code here).  We are primarilly using our  
> snmp utils in conjunction with nagios, although that is not say you  
> need nagios to help present the data you can collect.  While I  
> understand not wanting to run nagios, the plugins available for it  
> may be a good starting point to see how SNMP can be used to gather  
> system information in general (if you don't mind reading through  
> perl/sh code ;).

Just wanted to add that there is a program called nagat that provides  
web based administration for nagios:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nagat/

-Bjorn



From jfranks214  Wed Oct 12 18:21:41 2005
From: jfranks214 (Jonathan Franks)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:21:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] multiport serial cards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510120305580.2731@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510120305580.2731@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <8A6A1916-4907-449B-9FA1-ED140563C7AB@taconic.net>


On Oct 12,
> Hi all,
>
> I've got a (FreeBSD) console server that's got two 8-port  
> Rocketport cards in it.  I need to ditch these as they have two  
> problems:  the driver is kind of flakey and basically abandoned,  
> and I'm already three ports short of what I need and we're still  
> adding servers.
>
> Stallion looked nice, specifically this setup:
>
> http://www.stallion.com/html/products/easyconnection.html
>
> Density is great, 64 ports per card.  Price is right too.  However  
> every retailer has these on backorder, and it seems like the stl  
> driver did not make it to 5.x.
>
> This all makes me feel like some old unix nerd.  When I post on the  
> FreeBSD lists it's just crickets. :)
>
> Anyone here have recommendations on decent cards that cost less  
> than buying a standalone console server?  I'd like a minimum of 32  
> ports on a single card...
>

I've only used Digi portservers (which are pretty cool), but they  
also have this:


http://www.digi.com/products/multiportserialcards/acceleportcx.jsp

They start at 1300 and change and go up from there.... but they can  
scale to 128 ports on one pci slot. There is also a model that will  
go up to 64.

It's just a suggestion, and there are probably people better  
qualified to recommend something than I, but your post brought back  
memories. I did a stint with a company using Mentor Pro and MvBase on  
NT to serve up a business management package that they had written in  
Pick/Basic.

On further reflection, I'm glad thats over with :-)

-Jonathan




From nomadlogic  Thu Oct 13 12:45:10 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:45:10 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] pyxf86config
Message-ID: <57d710000510130945h2149c44cw8aa44975c04f861f@mail.gmail.com>

I'm throwing this out there because I know quite a few of the peep's on this
list have some python-foo. I'm working on an application that will allow
users to make basic modifications to their xorg.conf files. I've found the
pyxf86config libraries (something developed by redhat actually) and was
wondering if anyone has any experience working with this? more generally,
I'm pretty familiar working with perl to parse, edit and generate system
config files but have not done this too much with python yet. any short
cut's, tips or must have libraries I should check out?

-pete

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From anthony.elizondo  Thu Oct 13 13:00:04 2005
From: anthony.elizondo (Anthony Elizondo)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:00:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Startup School
Message-ID: <a49e62c80510131000p54a1c719wbc74599245d8fecd@mail.gmail.com>

I know this is a little last minute, but is anyone going to Startup
School? You can read more about it at http://www.startupschool.org/


Anthony Elizondo



From lists  Thu Oct 13 13:19:08 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:19:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: BSD RSS Feeds
Message-ID: <20051013131908.763d672c@genoverly.com>

.. as heard on dragonfly list:
Michael

-----------------------------------------------------------
Begin forwarded message:

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:02:21 +0000
From: "Liam J. Foy" <liamfoy at sepulcrum.org>
To: users at crater.dragonflybsd.org
Subject: BSD RSS Feeds


Hello!

	Am emailing to let you guys know of a small site I have put
to together:

	http://metawire.org/~liamfoy/bsdportal/

It contains most BSD related RSS feeds I can find (although I never
looked hard).

The initial idea behind the site was for all BSD related RSS feeds to be
able to be seen in one location. I wanted this whilst in University.
It saved valuable time which would be otherwise spent by browsing
each and every site.

If you know of any other BSD related RSS feeds you would wish to
see, please email me. However, make sure the RSS are of good quality
and are reliable. All the RSS feeds are grabbed roughly every 3
hours.

Just thought I'd let you guys know =)

Cheers,

(I'm not subscribed to freebsd-users, maybe someone would like to
forward it).

--
Liam J. Foy







From cclymer  Thu Oct 13 14:05:48 2005
From: cclymer (Chris Clymer)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:05:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: BSD RSS Feeds
In-Reply-To: <20051013131908.763d672c@genoverly.com>
References: <20051013131908.763d672c@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <434EA1FC.30706@chrisclymer.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Awesome, thanks!  I just discovered the FreeBSD feed this week, and did
a bit of googling for others and came up with just the OpenBSD journal.

Looks like i've got a whole new set of things to feed my various
RSS-spewing IRC bots :)

michael wrote:
> .. as heard on dragonfly list:
> Michael
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:02:21 +0000
> From: "Liam J. Foy" <liamfoy at sepulcrum.org>
> To: users at crater.dragonflybsd.org
> Subject: BSD RSS Feeds
> 
> 
> Hello!
> 
> 	Am emailing to let you guys know of a small site I have put
> to together:
> 
> 	http://metawire.org/~liamfoy/bsdportal/
> 
> It contains most BSD related RSS feeds I can find (although I never
> looked hard).
> 
> The initial idea behind the site was for all BSD related RSS feeds to be
> able to be seen in one location. I wanted this whilst in University.
> It saved valuable time which would be otherwise spent by browsing
> each and every site.
> 
> If you know of any other BSD related RSS feeds you would wish to
> see, please email me. However, make sure the RSS are of good quality
> and are reliable. All the RSS feeds are grabbed roughly every 3
> hours.
> 
> Just thought I'd let you guys know =)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> (I'm not subscribed to freebsd-users, maybe someone would like to
> forward it).
> 
> --
> Liam J. Foy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 

- --
          Chris Clymer - Chris at ChrisClymer.com
PGP: E546 19B6 D1EC 47A7 CAA0 8623 C807 398C CD27 15B8

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From hubert  Thu Oct 13 14:34:43 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: BSD RSS Feeds
In-Reply-To: <434EA1FC.30706@chrisclymer.com>
References: <20051013131908.763d672c@genoverly.com>
	<434EA1FC.30706@chrisclymer.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510132033580.15636@m24s24.vlinux.de>

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Chris Clymer wrote:
>> 	http://metawire.org/~liamfoy/bsdportal/

There's also:
http://people.bsdplanet.net/
http://news.bsdplanet.net/


  - Hubert



From dan  Thu Oct 13 20:08:40 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:08:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PostgreSQL on BSD
In-Reply-To: <009601c5cdf6$eb5b1130$6501a8c0@MZ>
References: <20051009110559.71740513@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <434EBEC8.25131.81E47739@localhost>

On 10 Oct 2005 at 20:01, Hans Zaunere wrote:

> > Has anyone else run into this problem?  And have you had any success
> > running PostgreSQL in a FreeBSD jail or OpenBSD chroot?
> 
> Yeah, this is a current limitation, and I'm not aware of any ways around it.
> While speaking with Bruce (who also mentioned this during his presentation
> at NYCBSDCon) there might be some architecture changes in future PGSQL
> releases that will eliminate this problem, however it sounded like it's
> still in very-very early stages of discussion.

This might be useful to some: I built a jail for the bacula 
<http://www.bacula.org/> project so they could run regression tests 
on FreeBSD.  I installed PostgreSQL in the host environment.  They 
access the database from within the jail.  They install a PostgreSQL 
client, and then access the database via TCP/IP.

Granted, this doesn't achieve the goal that I think you need: namely, 
a PostgreSQL instance in each jail.

cheers
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From george  Fri Oct 14 11:02:24 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:02:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Next meeting? [Fwd: question for bsd group]
Message-ID: <434FC880.3010206@sddi.net>

Okay. . . so I would like to hear some comments offlist about this. . .

Murray Stokely won't be able to make the next meeting, as he was 
recently hired by a rather well-known search engine.

Received this email through LESMUUG, and thought it might be worthwhile.

Thoughts? (again, offlist pls)

g

> 
>My name is Nate Smith, and my partner and I have just completed a documentary  film 
> entitled "Geeks On Board." Geeks On Board is a chronicle of a  one-week 
> long "Geek Cruise," a computer conference aboard a luxury  cruise liner. 
> The focus of this particular Geek Cruise was "Mac Mania  III." 
> Instructors and speakers included Steve Wozniak and David  Pogue, among 
> others. The film is largely character-driven, focusing  on the Woz and 
> various attendees of the Geek cruise.
> 
> We don't yet have a distribution outlet for the movie, but we are  
> really hoping to test-screen it for some people who might appreciate  it 
> - the Mac community - to get some quality feedback as we move onto  the 
> next stage of the film. I contacted the LES MUUG, and Brian  referred me 
> to you since the BSD group, as well as the Metro MUG,  hold your 
> meetings in the Apple Store, where there's a convenient  screen for 
> displaying movies. I'd be very excited to screen Geeks On  Board at a 
> meeting of the BSD and/or Metro MUGs, if you would be at  all 
> interested. Please drop me an email or phone call, and perhaps we  can 
> arrange a showing of Geeks On Board at one of your upcoming  meetings.
> 
> thanks for your time!
> best,
> nate smith
> producer/editor
> Geeks On Board
> www.geeksonboard.com
> 917.371.8818
> 






From george  Fri Oct 14 13:22:30 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:22:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Next meeting? [Fwd: question for bsd group]
In-Reply-To: <434FC880.3010206@sddi.net>
References: <434FC880.3010206@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <434FE956.9020903@sddi.net>

George R. wrote:
> Okay. . . so I would like to hear some comments offlist about this. . .
> 
> Murray Stokely won't be able to make the next meeting, as he was 
> recently hired by a rather well-known search engine.
> 
> Received this email through LESMUUG, and thought it might be worthwhile.
> 
> Thoughts? (again, offlist pls)
> 

Okay. .  well, the comments were lackluster, but we'll have a pretty 
big-deal speaker for next month. . .Tom Limoncelli, who many may know 
from USENIX, etc.  Holiday party in December, of course, then Trish in 
January.

So maybe I'll speak to the apple store and we'll do a separate thing for 
the movie. . .

George




From steve.rieger  Fri Oct 14 13:54:31 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 13:54:31 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Sun Hardware
Message-ID: <42BD89BD-498A-4082-B274-712BDBD3804B@tbwachiat.com>

hi all

am looking for used sun hardware if you have any you want to get rid  
of please let me know


for a non profit i am helping out.



thanx

and sorry about the off topic post.














--
Steve Rieger
Cell      646-335-8915
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq  
light)                                                                   
   If light were dark and dark were light
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} ==  
black_hole)                                                The moon a  
black hole in the blaze of night
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})) 
{                                                  A raven's wing as  
bright as tin
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} +  
1;                                                            A  
raven's wing as bright as tin
};





From lists  Sat Oct 15 10:23:11 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:23:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cables
Message-ID: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>

I need to purchase a few serial console cables.  I was thinking of those
flat, light blue cisco cables.  Does anyone have any recommendations to
shop in manhattan?

Michael



From okan  Sat Oct 15 13:27:29 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:27:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cables
In-Reply-To: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
References: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <20051015172751.GA16463@bromine.khaoz.org>

On Sat 2005.10.15 at 10:23 -0400, michael wrote:
> I need to purchase a few serial console cables.  I was thinking of those
> flat, light blue cisco cables.  Does anyone have any recommendations to
> shop in manhattan?

if you are looking for cables for cisco gear, these would be rollover
cables, that is that the pins are "rolled" (1 to 8, 2 to 7, 3 to 6,
...).  hopefully someone will come forward and donate 2 to you. these
are a dime a dozen in any shop that has any cisco gear. i'm sure someone
will sell them, either in a store or elsewhere, but i couldn't tell you
where...sorry.

better yet, you could just make your own - these are easy ;)



From jpb  Sat Oct 15 13:59:55 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:59:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cables
In-Reply-To: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
References: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <20051015175955.GB88649@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* michael <lists at genoverly.net> [2005-10-15 10:23]:
> I need to purchase a few serial console cables.  I was thinking of those
> flat, light blue cisco cables.  Does anyone have any recommendations to
> shop in manhattan?
> 
> Michael


Take care to determine the exact pinouts you need.

Cisco console cables are 'rollover' cables, not 'straight through'.

See 
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps214/products_tech_note09186a00801f5d85.shtml

"Identifying a Rollover Cable" for a pinout and description.


Best Regards,
Jim B.




From spork  Sat Oct 15 15:15:44 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 15:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cables
In-Reply-To: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
References: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510151514360.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, michael wrote:

> I need to purchase a few serial console cables.  I was thinking of those
> flat, light blue cisco cables.  Does anyone have any recommendations to
> shop in manhattan?

The only place that I know of is this:

http://www.cablesandchipsinc.com/

You will pay a premium for the convenience, but they stock a ton of stuff 
and can make anything they don't stock.

C

> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From ike  Sun Oct 16 19:10:32 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:10:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cables
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510151514360.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510151514360.303@gee5.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <53BD9826-0462-4A23-941B-1AE02AFF838A@lesmuug.org>

On Oct 15, 2005, at 3:15 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> The only place that I know of is this:
>
> http://www.cablesandchipsinc.com/
>
> You will pay a premium for the convenience, but they stock a ton of  
> stuff and can make anything they don't stock.
>
> C
>

Will second that, Cables and Chips always has always been there for  
me when I need it *now*- good folks.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Sun Oct 16 22:47:21 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:47:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Free 19" rack, shortie with wheels
Message-ID: <177D1935-646B-4B5D-9690-1AF0E08E520D@lesmuug.org>

Hey all,

I'm moving.  I'm ditching certain items...

--
So I've got this unique little 19" waist-high rack I pulled from a  
junkyard.  It's great for anyone who's always wanted a little desk- 
height rack to slap old boxes in for dev/whatever.

It had a former life as a 'Wizzard' brand mini-mainframe from the  
80's, and they happened to keep components stacked in a standard 19"  
rack (the guts are long-gone).

With that, I gutted the thing and painted it a while back, and it  
wears it's junkyard dents with pride; fits old rackmount gear nice  
and clean. I'd love to see it go to a good home but it may likely end  
up on the street.

It also makes an excellent staging-bench for working on rackmount  
servers.

Email me offlist if you want it- you simply have to come to  
Williamsburg and pick it up sometime in the next 10 days.

Rocket-
.ike





From ike  Sun Oct 16 23:37:01 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:37:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Free 19" rack, shortie with wheels
In-Reply-To: <177D1935-646B-4B5D-9690-1AF0E08E520D@lesmuug.org>
References: <177D1935-646B-4B5D-9690-1AF0E08E520D@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <334B3C4F-E79C-451A-B442-2886971B6CA1@lesmuug.org>

Hey all,

On Oct 16, 2005, at 10:47 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> little 19" waist-high rack

It has been claimed.

Sorry for the inbox noise.

Rocket-
.ike





From mspitzer  Sun Oct 16 23:50:33 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:50:33 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] go read
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510162050n673671cavd16c0e4c199d2bf0@mail.gmail.com>

Solaris, linux and freebsd oh my

http://it.slashdot.org/it/05/10/16/2259202.shtml?tid=190&tid=218
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From swygue  Mon Oct 17 08:22:34 2005
From: swygue (swygue)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:22:34 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Re: cables
In-Reply-To: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
References: <20051015102311.28f2bfdf@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f30510170522k20aa4cacrdc4fdf3ee101138b@mail.gmail.com>

I can give you two cables.

On 10/15/05, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> I need to purchase a few serial console cables.  I was thinking of those
> flat, light blue cisco cables.  Does anyone have any recommendations to
> shop in manhattan?
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>


--
swygue neron --->>



From steve.rieger  Mon Oct 17 13:22:28 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:22:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] find exclude question
Message-ID: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>

hi all cant seem to find an answer so i turn to the gods.

i would like to run the following find /path/to/dir -atime +14 -- 
exclude dir1,dir2 -exec rm -fr {} \ ;

i want to exclude dir1 and dir2 from this find


is it possible
Steve Rieger
Cell      646-335-8915
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq  
light)                                                                   
   If light were dark and dark were light
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} ==  
black_hole)                                                The moon a  
black hole in the blaze of night
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})) 
{                                                  A raven's wing as  
bright as tin
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} +  
1;                                                            A  
raven's wing as bright as tin
};





From njt  Mon Oct 17 13:34:37 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:34:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] find exclude question
In-Reply-To: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>
References: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20051017173437.GI31017@ayvali.org>

* Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> [2005-10-17 13:22:28 -0400]:
> i would like to run the following find /path/to/dir -atime +14 -- 
> exclude dir1,dir2 -exec rm -fr {} \ ;
> 
> i want to exclude dir1 and dir2 from this find

You want "-prune", as in:

    find /path/to/dir \( -path /path/to/dir/dir1 -o -path /path/to/dir/dir2\) -prune -o -print

Put all your options on the -print side.

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From george  Mon Oct 17 14:01:29 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:01:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] find exclude question
In-Reply-To: <20051017173437.GI31017@ayvali.org>
References: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>
	<20051017173437.GI31017@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051017180129.GA30934@sta.duo>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 01:34:37PM -0400, N.J. Thomas wrote:
>* Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> [2005-10-17 13:22:28 -0400]:
>> i would like to run the following find /path/to/dir -atime +14 -- 
>> exclude dir1,dir2 -exec rm -fr {} \ ;
>> 
>> i want to exclude dir1 and dir2 from this find
>
>You want "-prune", as in:
>
>    find /path/to/dir \( -path /path/to/dir/dir1 -o -path /path/to/dir/dir2\) -prune -o -print

Isn't that the oppisit of requested? eg prune returns the trimmings

find . ! \( -path '*/CVS' -prune \) 

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From ike  Mon Oct 17 14:23:21 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:23:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
Message-ID: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

I know this is *not* a list which would be exited about this  
question, but I know there's a lot of real-world sysadmins out there  
who may know just the trick:

Q: Is there any GUI program built into new Windows systems that does  
FTP?  Or a FreeWare/cheap FTP client program?

I'm looking to put out a fire fast here...  (answers describing the  
wonders of SFTP or Windows-bashing are just going to go to /dev/null  
with this one.)

Thx all! Rocket-
.ike






From fifi  Mon Oct 17 14:25:28 2005
From: fifi (Mike Sawicki)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:25:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
In-Reply-To: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
References: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20051017182528.GT66088@HAX.ORG>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 02:23:21PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
> 
> I know this is *not* a list which would be exited about this  
> question, but I know there's a lot of real-world sysadmins out there  
> who may know just the trick:
> 
> Q: Is there any GUI program built into new Windows systems that does  
> FTP?  Or a FreeWare/cheap FTP client program?
> 
> I'm looking to put out a fire fast here...  (answers describing the  
> wonders of SFTP or Windows-bashing are just going to go to /dev/null  
> with this one.)
> 

FileZilla has a standard FTP mode.

ftp through IE acts sorta like a windows explorer window.

--
Mike Sawicki (fifi at HAX.ORG)



From nomadlogic  Mon Oct 17 14:29:19 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:29:19 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
In-Reply-To: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
References: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <57d710000510171129o753c3163s490b3352d6cd7bf3@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/17/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> I know this is *not* a list which would be exited about this
> question, but I know there's a lot of real-world sysadmins out there
> who may know just the trick:
>
> Q: Is there any GUI program built into new Windows systems that does
> FTP? Or a FreeWare/cheap FTP client program?


the windows explorer should support URL's ala:

ftp://user at some.system.org

it'll open a basic auth window to authenticate...not too sure on how it
handles firewall's though...good enough to allow you to grab files...not
sure about uploading stuff though..

-pete



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From mikel.king  Mon Oct 17 14:31:41 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:31:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
In-Reply-To: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
References: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <75B33E5D-D871-4462-8D97-E3BB40BE3DBC@ocsny.com>

open 'My Computer' and on the address bar enter your ftp url...

I usually do something like ftp://mradmin at ftp.widgets.com Then  
windows will prompt for the password.


On Oct 17, 2005, at 2:23 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> I know this is *not* a list which would be exited about this  
> question, but I know there's a lot of real-world sysadmins out  
> there who may know just the trick:
>
> Q: Is there any GUI program built into new Windows systems that  
> does FTP?  Or a FreeWare/cheap FTP client program?
>
> I'm looking to put out a fire fast here...  (answers describing the  
> wonders of SFTP or Windows-bashing are just going to go to /dev/ 
> null with this one.)
>
> Thx all! Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>




From ike  Mon Oct 17 14:40:26 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:40:26 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
In-Reply-To: <20051017182528.GT66088@HAX.ORG>
References: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
	<20051017182528.GT66088@HAX.ORG>
Message-ID: <593B1457-6237-4618-8D96-5F1F971BC2A1@lesmuug.org>

Mike, Pete, All,


> FileZilla has a standard FTP mode.
>
<snip>

> the windows explorer
>
<snip>

Thanks for the tips guys- the Windows Explorer stuff worked out AOK,  
and I now get to slide back into a shell.

Chalk that down as more beers I owe around... :)

Rocket-
.ike






From nycbug-list  Mon Oct 17 14:56:59 2005
From: nycbug-list (Jonathan)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:56:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
In-Reply-To: <75B33E5D-D871-4462-8D97-E3BB40BE3DBC@ocsny.com>
References: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
	<75B33E5D-D871-4462-8D97-E3BB40BE3DBC@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <B3A4A606-69D0-4B18-8A1A-FB7DC577BB4D@2xlp.com>

IIRC, this should work in IE too
     ftp://user:password at ftp.domain.com

useful for giving to people not swift enough to enter in their own  
password or username, even when prompted ( there are more than you  
think)



From njt  Mon Oct 17 15:19:24 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:19:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] find exclude question
In-Reply-To: <20051017180129.GA30934@sta.duo>
References: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>
	<20051017173437.GI31017@ayvali.org>
	<20051017180129.GA30934@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <20051017191924.GN31017@ayvali.org>

* George Georgalis <george at galis.org> [2005-10-17 14:01:29 -0400]:
> > > i would like to run the following find /path/to/dir -atime +14 -- 
> > > exclude dir1,dir2 -exec rm -fr {} \ ;
> > > 
> > > i want to exclude dir1 and dir2 from this find
> >
> > You want "-prune", as in:
> >
> >    find /path/to/dir \( -path /path/to/dir/dir1 -o -path /path/to/dir/dir2\) -prune -o -print
> 
> Isn't that the oppisit of requested? eg prune returns the trimmings
> 
> find . ! \( -path '*/CVS' -prune \) 

hi George,

If I understand the OP correctly, he wanted to exclude dir1 and dir2
from his find action (deleting old directories). Also, if I understand
how find works (its been a while since I've read up on the man/info
page), -prune is a primary (the others are -print, -exec, etc.)

So to do what he wanted, he would have to have two primaries, one to
prune away the unnecessary dirs and the other to run his -exec.

I believe the full command he needs to run is something like this:

    find /path/to/dir \( -path /path/to/dir/dir1 -o -path /path/to/dir/dir2 \) -prune -o -atime +14 -exec rm -fr {} \ 

The way you are running find above may return the trimmings, but if my
reading of the man/info page is correct (its been a while since I've
looked at it), your statement is incomplete because it doesn't have a
primary after the -prune (-print or -exec).

But I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, feel free to correct
this. =-)

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From george  Mon Oct 17 18:05:44 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:05:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] find exclude question
In-Reply-To: <20051017191924.GN31017@ayvali.org>
References: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>
	<20051017173437.GI31017@ayvali.org>
	<20051017180129.GA30934@sta.duo>
	<20051017191924.GN31017@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051017220544.GB32189@sta.duo>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:19:24PM -0400, N.J. Thomas wrote:
>* George Georgalis <george at galis.org> [2005-10-17 14:01:29 -0400]:
>> 
>> Isn't that the oppisit of requested? eg prune returns the trimmings
>> 
>> find . ! \( -path '*/CVS' -prune \) 
>
>hi George,
>
>If I understand the OP correctly, he wanted to exclude dir1 and dir2
>from his find action (deleting old directories). Also, if I understand
>how find works (its been a while since I've read up on the man/info
>page), -prune is a primary (the others are -print, -exec, etc.)
>
>So to do what he wanted, he would have to have two primaries, one to
>prune away the unnecessary dirs and the other to run his -exec.
>
>I believe the full command he needs to run is something like this:
>
>    find /path/to/dir \( -path /path/to/dir/dir1 -o -path /path/to/dir/dir2 \) -prune -o -atime +14 -exec rm -fr {} \ 
>
>The way you are running find above may return the trimmings, but if my
>reading of the man/info page is correct (its been a while since I've
>looked at it), your statement is incomplete because it doesn't have a
>primary after the -prune (-print or -exec).

...well my use of ! has made the syntax more comprehensible for
me.  But it doesn't work for testing the OP's situation, which
requires -o, instead you need something like this

find . ! \( \( -path ./dir/dir2 -o -path ./dir/dir1 \) -prune \)

Matter of taste, I find "! ( -path ... -prune )" easier to read
than "( -path ... ) -prune -o" but with the extra paren in there
to support "-o -path ...", it gets messy. I checked the man...
-print is the default if there is no primary.

But there is another problem. if you exclude ./dir/dir2 and
./dir/dir2 but do -atime +14, who's to say you're not going to
rm -fr ./dir?

The OP's question has been trimmed, but there are several ways to
hack around this, including using "rm $(find ... | grep -v ...)",
-mindepth, -maxdepth or -type f. On another occasion I've checked
and using -prune is a _lot_ faster than using grep -v.

Maybe Steve will post what he comes up with?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From george  Mon Oct 17 18:16:41 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:16:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] find exclude question
In-Reply-To: <20051017191924.GN31017@ayvali.org>
References: <34A27F7C-DDB0-43C8-A87C-BF888F38A350@tbwachiat.com>
	<20051017173437.GI31017@ayvali.org>
	<20051017180129.GA30934@sta.duo>
	<20051017191924.GN31017@ayvali.org>
Message-ID: <20051017221641.GC32189@sta.duo>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:19:24PM -0400, N.J. Thomas wrote:
>* George Georgalis <george at galis.org> [2005-10-17 14:01:29 -0400]:

>> >    find /path/to/dir \( -path /path/to/dir/dir1 -o -path /path/to/dir/dir2\) -prune -o -print
>> 
>> Isn't that the oppisit of requested? eg prune returns the trimmings

Forgot to mention, I missed the "-prune -o" part so it's not, as I
thought, oppisit ... %-) guess you need the -print if -o is prior.

another way is 

find . ! \( -path ./dir/dir2 -prune -o -path ./dir/dir1 -prune \)

but you still got to watch out for the hit on ./dir

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From alexgill  Mon Oct 17 19:26:38 2005
From: alexgill (Gill, Alex)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:26:38 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Perl Seminar NY Season Starts Tomorrow]
Message-ID: <4354332E.8030507@tekwerx.biz>


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From george  Mon Oct 17 22:24:37 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:24:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] free web-based uptime utility
Message-ID: <43545CE5.6060304@sddi.net>

I understand that the old OpenACS Uptime died a long while back. . . any 
free alternatives out there?  It was a perfect resource, but alas, was 
certainly a sign of those times .. . It was taken down merely months 
after the NASDAQ tanked.

Wouldn't be a bad 'little' project for us to build just for NYCBUG 
members. . . would it?  Considering we have the resources at NYI. . .

FYI, there are two clients in the FBSD ports for it, but that's a 
separate project at http://uptimes.lp-musix.net/index.php

George



From netmantej  Mon Oct 17 22:50:12 2005
From: netmantej (Tim Jacques)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:50:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Windows FTP client?
In-Reply-To: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
References: <AC95CF68-9177-4F81-8DD8-0C262FE5C233@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <435462E4.2070804@gmail.com>

hello all..

core ftp lite works well for me..

www.coreftp.com

tim..

Isaac Levy wrote:
> Hey All,
> 
> I know this is *not* a list which would be exited about this  question, 
> but I know there's a lot of real-world sysadmins out there  who may know 
> just the trick:
> 
> Q: Is there any GUI program built into new Windows systems that does  
> FTP?  Or a FreeWare/cheap FTP client program?
> 
> I'm looking to put out a fire fast here...  (answers describing the  
> wonders of SFTP or Windows-bashing are just going to go to /dev/null  
> with this one.)
> 
> Thx all! Rocket-
> .ike
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 



From mspitzer  Mon Oct 17 22:59:57 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:59:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] free web-based uptime utility
In-Reply-To: <43545CE5.6060304@sddi.net>
References: <43545CE5.6060304@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510171959n23e8b512w938ea4e9dc0bcca6@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/17/05, George R. <george at sddi.net> wrote:
> I understand that the old OpenACS Uptime died a long while back. . . any
> free alternatives out there?  It was a perfect resource, but alas, was
> certainly a sign of those times .. . It was taken down merely months
> after the NASDAQ tanked.

I just posted a question on the openacs site to see if it is still
working, I will see what happens.  There are a few openacs people in
nyc also.

>
> Wouldn't be a bad 'little' project for us to build just for NYCBUG
> members. . . would it?  Considering we have the resources at NYI. . .
>
> FYI, there are two clients in the FBSD ports for it, but that's a
> separate project at http://uptimes.lp-musix.net/index.php

very different goal

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From ike  Tue Oct 18 12:25:16 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:25:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Net-SNMP
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510121037w5e955481k4b5f7947a7e51c75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B05DC72-F7EA-4BF8-B2B4-8D03C3BB383D@lesmuug.org>
	<57d710000510121037w5e955481k4b5f7947a7e51c75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F67993DB-2271-40D2-B298-9B08A78F27C3@lesmuug.org>

Hey All,

To follow-up, for the record:

On Oct 12, 2005, at 1:37 PM, pete wright wrote:

> On 10/12/05, Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> wrote: Hey All,
>
> I'm re-evaluating SNMP tools (primarily for trapping) right now for
> different deployments, CoLo and local network, and I'd like to settle
> on one to use long-term.  Anyone have any recommendations?  Loves/
> Hate any in particular?
>
> I'm not interested in a big app which does SNMP trapping, (Nagios/
> NetSaint, Big Brother, etc...), used all that stuff in the past- not
> too exited.
>
> I'm looking for simple shell tools and daemons, with clean, simple
> interfaces.  Bells and whistles are just going to be stripped off and
> tossed in the bitbucket...
>
> --
> So far I'm going to try Net-SNMP,
>
>
> We use net-snmp and it's assortied utilites pretty heavilly here.   
> There is a wealth of info you can get from snmp, and it can be  
> extended very easilly via sh/perl and python (although I have yet  
> to write any python-snmp code here).  We are primarilly using our  
> snmp utils in conjunction with nagios, although that is not say you  
> need nagios to help present the data you can collect.  While I  
> understand not wanting to run nagios, the plugins available for it  
> may be a good starting point to see how SNMP can be used to gather  
> system information in general (if you don't mind reading through  
> perl/sh code ;).
>
>
>
> -pete
>
>

More Pythonic goodness, for the record, I found:

http://pysnmp.sourceforge.net/

It's BSD Licensed, and was funded by the Python Software Foundation  
to get finished...  Looks promising.

Rocket-
.ike






From j  Tue Oct 18 16:05:50 2005
From: j (Freeman, Joshua)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:05:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] do we like XDarwin for OSX?
Message-ID: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E0502910BC4@xmail.nybg.org>

I need an X windows program to run NetVault's GUI... do we like XDarwin here or something else?

Curious,

Joshua

Joshua S. Freeman
Director, Information Technology, NYBG
v: 718 817 8937 m: 347 392 2560
jfreeman at nybg dot org | skype: karmester



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From fifi  Tue Oct 18 17:01:36 2005
From: fifi (Mike Sawicki)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:01:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] do we like XDarwin for OSX?
In-Reply-To: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E0502910BC4@xmail.nybg.org>
References: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E0502910BC4@xmail.nybg.org>
Message-ID: <20051018210135.GW66088@HAX.ORG>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 04:05:50PM -0400, Freeman, Joshua wrote:
> I need an X windows program to run NetVault's GUI... do we like XDarwin here or something else?
> 

There's an official X11 maintained by Apple located on their site
somewhere.  Try the developer section.

--
Mike Sawicki (fifi at HAX.ORG)



From bob  Tue Oct 18 17:52:38 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:52:38 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] do we like XDarwin for OSX?
In-Reply-To: <20051018210135.GW66088@HAX.ORG>
References: <319FD9EAB7A43E43895ACA5AA1F81E0502910BC4@xmail.nybg.org>
	<20051018210135.GW66088@HAX.ORG>
Message-ID: <A89977D1-A11E-4045-8FCA-EF4E31A80980@redivi.com>


On Oct 18, 2005, at 2:01 PM, Mike Sawicki wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 04:05:50PM -0400, Freeman, Joshua wrote:
>
>> I need an X windows program to run NetVault's GUI... do we like  
>> XDarwin here or something else?
>>
>>
>
> There's an official X11 maintained by Apple located on their site
> somewhere.  Try the developer section.

It's distributed with OS X, since Mac OS X 10.3.  You can find it on  
the CD (third CD, I think) or Tiger DVD as X11.pkg.

See also: http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1232.html

-bob




From george  Wed Oct 19 11:03:30 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:03:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
Message-ID: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>

I've come across this message before, and thought the box was compromised.
Today I've come across it again, but managed to find it in the source --
it's not so bad as it sounds...

What are your thoughts about putting such error messages in code?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From okan  Wed Oct 19 11:08:38 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:07:38 -0401
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>
References: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <20051019150800.GC19525@bromine.khaoz.org>

On Wed 2005.10.19 at 11:03 -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
> I've come across this message before, and thought the box was compromised.
> Today I've come across it again, but managed to find it in the source --
> it's not so bad as it sounds...
> 
> What are your thoughts about putting such error messages in code?

can you please provide some context?

btw, i think it's funny.



From george  Wed Oct 19 11:25:32 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:25:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051019150800.GC19525@bromine.khaoz.org>
References: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>
	<20051019150800.GC19525@bromine.khaoz.org>
Message-ID: <20051019152532.GC29412@sta.duo>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 11:07:38AM -0401, Okan Demirmen wrote:
>On Wed 2005.10.19 at 11:03 -0400, George Georgalis wrote:
>> I've come across this message before, and thought the box was compromised.
>> Today I've come across it again, but managed to find it in the source --
>> it's not so bad as it sounds...
>> 
>> What are your thoughts about putting such error messages in code?
>
>can you please provide some context?
>
>btw, i think it's funny.

yeah it's funny, if it doesn't make you think you are cracked.
it's in the screen attach.c code, when it first happened, I
couldn't attach to a prior session and really thought I was
compromised. Didn't think it was funny at the time, don't recall
finding anything in google about it.

This time I was doing some really unusual stuff with screen and
that source was the first place I looked. I only wish the fail to
attach error message was more specific...

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From ike  Wed Oct 19 11:32:16 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:32:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051019152532.GC29412@sta.duo>
References: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>
	<20051019150800.GC19525@bromine.khaoz.org>
	<20051019152532.GC29412@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <0F48C30D-8C48-4AA6-963E-5D55DD4344C4@lesmuug.org>

Well,

On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:25 AM, George Georgalis wrote:

> screen attach.c code

It's screen.  It's gnu.  They do that kind of stuff.
Love it or leave it (for a nonexistent alternative?)

Rocket-
.ike





From nycbug  Wed Oct 19 11:51:50 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:51:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <0F48C30D-8C48-4AA6-963E-5D55DD4344C4@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 11:32:16AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
> Well,
> 
> On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:25 AM, George Georgalis wrote:
> 
> >screen attach.c code
> 
> It's screen.  It's gnu.  They do that kind of stuff.
> Love it or leave it (for a nonexistent alternative?)

http://dtach.sourceforge.net/

Only supports the detach/attach feature of screen, but doesn't
mangle screens as much as screen does.  It's good for having one
permanent session (irc) but tedious for multiplexing too many
sessions at once.

Definitely useful for something like irssi, mutt, or anything else
that uses a lot of colors.  Screen messes that up a lot.

-Ray-



From ike  Wed Oct 19 13:18:37 2005
From: ike (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:18:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>

Niiiiiiiiice,

On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Ray Lai wrote:


> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 11:32:16AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>
>> Well,
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:25 AM, George Georgalis wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> screen attach.c code
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's screen.  It's gnu.  They do that kind of stuff.
>> Love it or leave it (for a nonexistent alternative?)
>>
>>
>
> http://dtach.sourceforge.net/
>
> Only supports the detach/attach feature of screen, but doesn't
> mangle screens as much as screen does.  It's good for having one
> permanent session (irc) but tedious for multiplexing too many
> sessions at once.
>
> Definitely useful for something like irssi, mutt, or anything else
> that uses a lot of colors.  Screen messes that up a lot.
>

Always happy to learn something new every day- (and this time, I  
don't even deserve it, for I was whining and jabbing...), regardless  
dtach looks *nice* and light.  I'm going to give it a go now...

Thx!

Rocket-
.ike






From hubert  Wed Oct 19 13:18:36 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:18:36 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die... 
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191914590.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>


On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, George Georgalis wrote:
> I've come across this message before, and thought the box was compromised.
> Today I've come across it again, but managed to find it in the source --
> it's not so bad as it sounds...
> 
> What are your thoughts about putting such error messages in code?

IIRC you can compile screen without those "funny" (nethack-style) error 
messages, and use "normal" (probably more informative) ones instead.

(Hm, seems someone actually botched the screen configure.in and you can't 
have it set NONETHACKany more... lame!)


  - Hubert



From hubert  Wed Oct 19 13:25:50 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 19:25:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>> http://dtach.sourceforge.net/
>> 
>> Only supports the detach/attach feature of screen, but doesn't
>> mangle screens as much as screen does.  It's good for having one
>> permanent session (irc) but tedious for multiplexing too many
>> sessions at once.

Anyone want to hack that detach/attach code into window(1)?
BSD copyrightes patches welcome! :)


  - Hubert



From bschonhorst  Wed Oct 19 14:28:32 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:28:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>
References: <20051019150330.GB29412@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <7708fd680510191128s54afe425ua03fcb8bbd8d638d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> I've come across this message before, and thought the box was compromised.
> Today I've come across it again, but managed to find it in the source --
> it's not so bad as it sounds...
>
> What are your thoughts about putting such error messages in code?
>

The first time I mistyped my password attempting to sudo a command in
OpenBSD I assumed my machine had been compromised.  Funny now, but not
then...

While I find it amusing (now) it doesn't seem very professional.

-Brad



From kacanski_s  Wed Oct 19 20:15:10 2005
From: kacanski_s (Aleksandar Kacanski)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache and mod_python question ...
Message-ID: <20051020001510.82140.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com>

I am working on the web project using mod_python and
apache2.
To run pdb in mod_python I am trying to run apache
enabled with threads but as I understand apr library
needs to be compiled with thread support which is not
the case by default.
Could someone explain to me what are the port options
to enable /usr/ports/devel/apr to compile and install
with thread support enabled.
I believe that Apache from the ports has option to
--enable-threads support (WITH_THREADS) or something
like that ...
thanks
/s

Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com



From nomadlogic  Wed Oct 19 20:20:04 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:20:04 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache and mod_python question ...
In-Reply-To: <20051020001510.82140.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20051020001510.82140.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510191720tdc2dbbbvcc2d80b33aef92e4@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/19/05, Aleksandar Kacanski <kacanski_s at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I am working on the web project using mod_python and
> apache2.
> To run pdb in mod_python I am trying to run apache
> enabled with threads but as I understand apr library
> needs to be compiled with thread support which is not
> the case by default.
> Could someone explain to me what are the port options
> to enable /usr/ports/devel/apr to compile and install
> with thread support enabled.



hmm...checking out /usr/ports/devel/apr show's this....
# Tunables:
# APR_UTIL_WITHOUT_THREADS: disable threads support
# APR_UTIL_WITH_GDBM: force dependency on the GNU dbm
# APR_UTIL_WITHOUT_GDBM: unconditionally disable the use of GNU dbm
# APR_UTIL_WITH_BERKELEY_DB: force dependency on Sleepycat's Berkeley DB 4.2
# APR_UTIL_WITHOUT_BERKELEY_DB: unconditionally disable the use of db4.2
# (the database bindings are detected and recorded automatically if these
# switches are not set)
# APR_UTIL_WITH_LDAP: force dependency on OpenLDAP


which would lead me to believe that it is build with threads enabeled.

-pete

I believe that Apache from the ports has option to
> --enable-threads support (WITH_THREADS) or something
> like that ...
> thanks
> /s
>
> Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From george  Thu Oct 20 00:56:03 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:56:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <20051020045603.GC4395@sta.duo>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 07:25:50PM +0200, Hubert Feyrer wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
>>>http://dtach.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>>Only supports the detach/attach feature of screen, but doesn't
>>>mangle screens as much as screen does.  It's good for having one
>>>permanent session (irc) but tedious for multiplexing too many
>>>sessions at once.
>
>Anyone want to hack that detach/attach code into window(1)?
>BSD copyrightes patches welcome! :)

That is a cool program too! wish I had time to grok em both!

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From bschonhorst  Thu Oct 20 09:58:05 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:58:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051020045603.GC4395@sta.duo>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<20051020045603.GC4395@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <7708fd680510200658p24be65c1re29d5a72c78cc46c@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/20/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 07:25:50PM +0200, Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> >On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> >>>http://dtach.sourceforge.net/
> >>>
> >>>Only supports the detach/attach feature of screen, but doesn't
> >>>mangle screens as much as screen does.  It's good for having one
> >>>permanent session (irc) but tedious for multiplexing too many
> >>>sessions at once.
> >
> >Anyone want to hack that detach/attach code into window(1)?
> >BSD copyrightes patches welcome! :)
>
> That is a cool program too! wish I had time to grok em both!
>

I didn't know there were martians on this list...



From kacanski_s  Thu Oct 20 10:14:08 2005
From: kacanski_s (Aleksandar Kacanski)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache and mod_python question ...
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510191720tdc2dbbbvcc2d80b33aef92e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051020141408.53384.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com>

The apr might be thread enabled, but Apache definitely
is not and I do not know how to enable it without
going with source distribution and doing it myself.
~sasha


--- pete wright <nomadlogic at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/19/05, Aleksandar Kacanski
> <kacanski_s at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am working on the web project using mod_python
> and
> > apache2.
> > To run pdb in mod_python I am trying to run apache
> > enabled with threads but as I understand apr
> library
> > needs to be compiled with thread support which is
> not
> > the case by default.
> > Could someone explain to me what are the port
> options
> > to enable /usr/ports/devel/apr to compile and
> install
> > with thread support enabled.
> 
> 
> 
> hmm...checking out /usr/ports/devel/apr show's
> this....
> # Tunables:
> # APR_UTIL_WITHOUT_THREADS: disable threads support
> # APR_UTIL_WITH_GDBM: force dependency on the GNU
> dbm
> # APR_UTIL_WITHOUT_GDBM: unconditionally disable the
> use of GNU dbm
> # APR_UTIL_WITH_BERKELEY_DB: force dependency on
> Sleepycat's Berkeley DB 4.2
> # APR_UTIL_WITHOUT_BERKELEY_DB: unconditionally
> disable the use of db4.2
> # (the database bindings are detected and recorded
> automatically if these
> # switches are not set)
> # APR_UTIL_WITH_LDAP: force dependency on OpenLDAP
> 
> 
> which would lead me to believe that it is build with
> threads enabeled.
> 
> -pete
> 
> I believe that Apache from the ports has option to
> > --enable-threads support (WITH_THREADS) or
> something
> > like that ...
> > thanks
> > /s
> >
> > Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce
> lists
> > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ~~o0OO0o~~
> Pete Wright
> www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
> NYC's *BSD User Group
>

Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com



From nomadlogic  Thu Oct 20 11:33:20 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 08:33:20 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apache and mod_python question ...
In-Reply-To: <20051020141408.53384.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <57d710000510191720tdc2dbbbvcc2d80b33aef92e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051020141408.53384.qmail@web53606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510200833o703318a7w547096c7b010fa14@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/20/05, Aleksandar Kacanski <kacanski_s at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The apr might be thread enabled, but Apache definitely
> is not and I do not know how to enable it without
> going with source distribution and doing it myself.
> ~sasha



(please don't top post ;^)

sure you can. you can tune apache2x in the ports tree to support any
threading model that apache supports. A quick grep of the
/usr/ports/www/apache2 Makefile reveals this:

WITH_MPM?= prefork # or worker, perchild, threadpool

It's been a while since I've had to hack apache, but I think it may be
possible to build the MPM's as DSO's so you can load different threading
models when starting the daemon...or I might be smoking crack on that one...
-p


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nycbug  Thu Oct 20 11:46:11 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:46:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <20051020154611.GA5418@syntax.cyth.net>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 07:25:50PM +0200, Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Isaac Levy wrote:
> >>http://dtach.sourceforge.net/
> >>
> >>Only supports the detach/attach feature of screen, but doesn't
> >>mangle screens as much as screen does.  It's good for having one
> >>permanent session (irc) but tedious for multiplexing too many
> >>sessions at once.
> 
> Anyone want to hack that detach/attach code into window(1)?
> BSD copyrightes patches welcome! :)

When I use vi, top, or anything else that manipulates the screen,
window just prints out escape codes.  This is in OpenBSD.  Do those
programs work for anybody else in window?

-Ray-



From steve.rieger  Thu Oct 20 12:21:03 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:21:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] diff question
Message-ID: <B905A9C0-A809-4B10-8BF8-1133D45A93B5@tbwachiat.com>

hi all this is the output from my diff

ba_dev                        <
Belgies_Anxxx                    belgies_anxxxx
bradley_axxxxx         |         brad_aaaaaa
brian_avxxxxxx                   brian_avxxxx
Carlos_Trxxxxxx                   carlos_trxxxxxxx
                                      >    carlo_xxxxxxxxx


< means that this entrie is in the first file


 > means that this entry is in the second file

what does | mean, does that mean that these two entries (in this case  
bradley_axxxxx         |         brad_aaaaaa) was not found in the  
first file and diff just truncated two <'s to one line ?


thanx




Steve Rieger
Cell      646-335-8915
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq  
light)                                                                   
   If light were dark and dark were light
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} ==  
black_hole)                                                The moon a  
black hole in the blaze of night
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})) 
{                                                  A raven's wing as  
bright as tin
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} +  
1;                                                            A  
raven's wing as bright as tin
};



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From hubert  Thu Oct 20 12:35:40 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:35:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <7708fd680510200658p24be65c1re29d5a72c78cc46c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<20051020045603.GC4395@sta.duo>
	<7708fd680510200658p24be65c1re29d5a72c78cc46c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510201835040.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>


On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Brad Schonhorst wrote:
>> That is a cool program too! wish I had time to grok em both!
> I didn't know there were martians on this list...

Share water! :)


  - Hubert



From mspitzer  Thu Oct 20 12:36:56 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:36:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] diff question
In-Reply-To: <B905A9C0-A809-4B10-8BF8-1133D45A93B5@tbwachiat.com>
References: <B905A9C0-A809-4B10-8BF8-1133D45A93B5@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510200936v7779bfa2seccf8b905f8f0fd5@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/20/05, Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:
> hi all this is the output from my diff
>
> ba_dev                        <
> Belgies_Anxxx                    belgies_anxxxx
> bradley_axxxxx         |         brad_aaaaaa
> brian_avxxxxxx                   brian_avxxxx
> Carlos_Trxxxxxx                   carlos_trxxxxxxx
>                                       >    carlo_xxxxxxxxx
>
>
> < means that this entrie is in the first file
>
>
>  > means that this entry is in the second file
>
> what does | mean, does that mean that these two entries (in this case
> bradley_axxxxx         |         brad_aaaaaa) was not found in the
> first file and diff just truncated two <'s to one line ?
>

it means that there is a line close enough to be considdered the same
line but different versions of the same line, that is what mergmaster
tells me.  Assuming left to righ on the command line is left to right
on diff

marc



From hubert  Thu Oct 20 12:45:14 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:45:14 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051020154611.GA5418@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>
	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
	<20051020154611.GA5418@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510201844270.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
> When I use vi, top, or anything else that manipulates the screen,
> window just prints out escape codes.  This is in OpenBSD.  Do those
> programs work for anybody else in window?

They work fine for me, on NetBSD.


  - Hubert



From tux  Thu Oct 20 12:59:11 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:59:11 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510201844270.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <20051019155150.GD5065@syntax.cyth.net>	<36DAC3F0-4A60-44CE-B9CF-354DD8DD4179@lesmuug.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191924000.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>	<20051020154611.GA5418@syntax.cyth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0510201844270.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <4357CCDF.70607@penguinnetwerx.net>

Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
> 
>> When I use vi, top, or anything else that manipulates the screen,
>> window just prints out escape codes.  This is in OpenBSD.  Do those
>> programs work for anybody else in window?
> 
> 
> They work fine for me, on NetBSD.

Works like a champ in all the versions of Free I've used.

-- 
It said "use Linux 2.4 kernel or better" so I installed FreeBSD.  Now everything 
runs better.  Why didn't they just tell me to do that to begin with?




From hubert  Thu Oct 20 13:05:42 2005
From: hubert (Hubert Feyrer)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:05:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] diff question
In-Reply-To: <B905A9C0-A809-4B10-8BF8-1133D45A93B5@tbwachiat.com>
References: <B905A9C0-A809-4B10-8BF8-1133D45A93B5@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510201903590.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Steve Rieger wrote:
> bradley_axxxxx         |         brad_aaaaaa
...
> what does | mean, does that mean that these two entries (in this case 
> bradley_axxxxx         |         brad_aaaaaa) was not found in the first file 
> and diff just truncated two <'s to one line ?

>From the diff info-page[1]:

`|'
      The corresponding lines differ, and they are either both complete
      or both incomplete.


  - Hubert

[1] run: info '(diff.info)Side by Side'




From jbaltz  Thu Oct 20 13:10:43 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:10:43 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191914590.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0510191914590.18804@m24s24.vlinux.de>
Message-ID: <4357CF93.2060405@3phasecomputing.com>

On 10/19/2005 1:18 PM, Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> IIRC you can compile screen without those "funny" (nethack-style) error 
> messages, and use "normal" (probably more informative) ones instead.

Sendmail had them as far back as 1988, with things like "wascawwy 
wabbit, wandering wizards won't win!"

>  - Hubert

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From nycbug  Thu Oct 20 14:40:02 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:40:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <4357CCDF.70607@penguinnetwerx.net>
Message-ID: <20051020184002.GB19467@syntax.cyth.net>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 12:59:11PM -0400, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
> >
> >>When I use vi, top, or anything else that manipulates the screen,
> >>window just prints out escape codes.  This is in OpenBSD.  Do those
> >>programs work for anybody else in window?
> >
> >
> >They work fine for me, on NetBSD.
> 
> Works like a champ in all the versions of Free I've used.

Hmm, anyone who uses OpenBSD able to run vi or top in window
successfully?

I've also tried compiling the NetBSD window and running vi under
that.  I'm beginning to wonder if it's my system or OpenBSD.

-Ray-



From tillman  Thu Oct 20 14:52:10 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:52:10 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Suddenly the Dungeon collapses!! - You die...
In-Reply-To: <20051020184002.GB19467@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <4357CCDF.70607@penguinnetwerx.net>
	<20051020184002.GB19467@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20051020185210.GE34566@seekingfire.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 02:40:02PM -0400, Ray Lai wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 12:59:11PM -0400, Kevin Reiter wrote:
> > Hubert Feyrer wrote:
> > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
> > >
> > >>When I use vi, top, or anything else that manipulates the screen,
> > >>window just prints out escape codes.  This is in OpenBSD.  Do those
> > >>programs work for anybody else in window?
> > >
> > >
> > >They work fine for me, on NetBSD.
> > 
> > Works like a champ in all the versions of Free I've used.
> 
> Hmm, anyone who uses OpenBSD able to run vi or top in window
> successfully?
> 
> I've also tried compiling the NetBSD window and running vi under
> that.  I'm beginning to wonder if it's my system or OpenBSD.

I just tried putty'ing home and firing up window -- my custom color
prompt is shown literally, escape sequences and all.

My initial login shell, before firing up screen, had SHELL set to xterm.
I tried it again with xterm-color and the window process just dies. Odd.

-T


-- 
"To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
    -- Robert Heinlein



From scottro  Fri Oct 21 10:28:44 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:28:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OFF TOPIC--any AIX/UniVerse gurus out there?
Message-ID: <20051021142844.GA50710@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This is completely off-topic, but I'm wondering if there is anyone out
there familiar with running IBM's UniVerse on top of AIX, and if so,
would they be interested in a couple of hours of consulting.

If so, please email me off list. 

George, I'm assuming that this post is alright.  If it was
inappropriate, please let me know (and publicly is fine so that others
don't make the same error.)

Of course, we all know that it's easier to apologize afterwards than ask
permission in advance.  I am taking this liberty because time is an
issue.



- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Buffy: Hey, I know! Why don't you kill them? 
Giles: I'm a Watcher, I haven't the skill. 
Buffy: Oh, come on. A stake through the heart, a little sunlight.
It's like falling off a log. 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFDWPsc+lTVdes0Z9YRAsAiAJwKA1pmhf5VgCm99Ui1ufCF9gPrewCfeuaz
XOJBLkCXrgBr6zwbrc0BNPQ=
=FYUp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From lists  Fri Oct 21 11:57:30 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
Message-ID: <20051021114206.Y74554@zoraida.natserv.net>

We have a Verizon and a Speakeasy DSL lines. Both having connectivity 
problems. They both say in their status that there are some problems.. 
something broke in the NYC vecinity?

I don't have any problems at home (all the way uptown.. 190th st).
Our office is at 35st.. called a friend in the Wall street area. They 
don't seem to have a problem.



From alex  Fri Oct 21 12:01:07 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:01:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
In-Reply-To: <20051021114206.Y74554@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211200230.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> We have a Verizon and a Speakeasy DSL lines. Both having connectivity
> problems. They both say in their status that there are some problems..  
> something broke in the NYC vecinity?
That's too vague to diagnose. What kinda problems? Layer 2 (physical 
connectivity), Layer 3 (IP / intarweb related) etc?

-alex




From krook  Fri Oct 21 12:08:03 2005
From: krook (Daniel Krook)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:08:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
In-Reply-To: <20051021114206.Y74554@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <OF50A182CC.A0DC6D4F-ON852570A1.00586FB6-852570A1.0058A03F@us.ibm.com>

talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org wrote on 10/21/2005 11:57:30 AM:

> We have a Verizon and a Speakeasy DSL lines. Both having 
> connectivity 
> problems. They both say in their status that there are 
> some problems.. 
> something broke in the NYC vecinity?
> 
> I don't have any problems at home (all the way uptown.. 190th st).
> Our office is at 35st.. called a friend in the Wall street
> area. They 
> don't seem to have a problem.


My Speakeasy DSL is ok in Stamford, CT

This likely has something to do w/ it: 
http://slashdot.org/articles/05/10/21/0958232.shtml?tid=215&tid=95






Daniel Krook, Advisory IT Specialist 
Application Development, Production Services - Tools, ibm.com

Personal: http://info.krook.org/
BluePages: http://bluepages.redirect.webahead.ibm.com/
BlogPages: http://blogpages.redirect.webahead.ibm.com/




From alex  Fri Oct 21 12:10:53 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:10:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
In-Reply-To: <OF50A182CC.A0DC6D4F-ON852570A1.00586FB6-852570A1.0058A03F@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211210210.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Daniel Krook wrote:

> My Speakeasy DSL is ok in Stamford, CT
> 
> This likely has something to do w/ it:  
> http://slashdot.org/articles/05/10/21/0958232.shtml?tid=215&tid=95
No, it doesn't. Everything on (3) is back to normal as of about 4am.

-alex




From george  Fri Oct 21 12:23:03 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:23:03 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211210210.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211210210.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <435915E7.7070703@sddi.net>

alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Daniel Krook wrote:
> 
> 
>>My Speakeasy DSL is ok in Stamford, CT
>>
>>This likely has something to do w/ it:  
>>http://slashdot.org/articles/05/10/21/0958232.shtml?tid=215&tid=95
> 
> No, it doesn't. Everything on (3) is back to normal as of about 4am.

I had a discussion with a verizon foreman Tuesday, and they had just 
received an email from the top that Verizon was one step from a state of 
emergency in the NYC area due to flooding, etc.  There is at least one 
office building I know downtown that lost all phone connectivity but I 
believe it's back up.

I don't know the status today.

No issues with Ver ADSL at home in Bk. . .

g



From lists  Fri Oct 21 15:37:40 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:37:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211200230.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211200230.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <20051021153159.S75884@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> That's too vague to diagnose. What kinda problems?


Running mtr (my trace route) shows significant packets dropped at 
different points. On speakasy some hops had as high as 3o% to 50% drops. 
On Verizon varied, but was anywhere from 2% to 20% packets loss.

I was not able to keep an ssh connection for over a few minutes.
This started yesterday. Today when I do mtr the routes the packets are 
going are very different as the ones from yesterday. Today they seem to 
have less packet drop.

I do think that this is related to the Slashdot article.
There were particularly two companies that were dropping packets.
If I recall correctly they were L3 and something like globe3... one was 
the one reported on Slashdot and the other one was on Speakeasy status 
notice that they were having problems with them.

The verizon line seems to be better now.. will check the speakeasy in a 
few..



From joshmccormack  Fri Oct 21 16:12:25 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:12:25 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Connectivity problems in NYC?
In-Reply-To: <20051021153159.S75884@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510211200230.30560-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<20051021153159.S75884@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <43594BA9.6080508@travelersdiary.com>

Looking at http://www.internettrafficreport.com/main.htm it looks like 
there are major problems all over the world. Asia is just about gone.

Josh

Francisco Reyes wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> 
>> That's too vague to diagnose. What kinda problems?
> 
> 
> 
> Running mtr (my trace route) shows significant packets dropped at 
> different points. On speakasy some hops had as high as 3o% to 50% drops. 
> On Verizon varied, but was anywhere from 2% to 20% packets loss.
> 
> I was not able to keep an ssh connection for over a few minutes.
> This started yesterday. Today when I do mtr the routes the packets are 
> going are very different as the ones from yesterday. Today they seem to 
> have less packet drop.
> 
> I do think that this is related to the Slashdot article.
> There were particularly two companies that were dropping packets.
> If I recall correctly they were L3 and something like globe3... one was 
> the one reported on Slashdot and the other one was on Speakeasy status 
> notice that they were having problems with them.
> 
> The verizon line seems to be better now.. will check the speakeasy in a 
> few..
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
> 



From jpb  Sat Oct 22 14:16:16 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:16:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD in NY Times (Friday)
Message-ID: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>


Didn't get a chance to write this yesterday,
but FreeBSD was mentioned in the Times on Friday, Oct, 21.

Thomas Friedman's column 'Chinese Finding Their Voice'
mentions how voices in China are now finding an expression
through a website (Toodou.com) with podcasts and blogs.

  "Almost  all of the software that runs
  Toodou.com is from free open-source material on the Web:
  an Apache Web server; FreeBSD, a free Unix operating
  system; MySQL, a free database system; and POHP, free
  programming lingo."


Friedman is a pretty forward looking guy- check out his
book - 'The World is Flat'  about the changes in 
business, technology and social structures.


Full disclosure- I have no connection to the NY Times or
to Thomas Friedman; just a fan.

Best Regards,
Jim B.




From jpb  Sun Oct 23 10:03:36 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 10:03:36 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD in NY Times (Friday)
In-Reply-To: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20051023140336.GA45806@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* Jim Brown <jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> [2005-10-22 14:16]:

[snip]
>   an Apache Web server; FreeBSD, a free Unix operating
>   system; MySQL, a free database system; and POHP, free

Not a new language... just a typo on  PHP.

Jim B.




From tillman  Sun Oct 23 11:48:06 2005
From: tillman (Tillman Hodgson)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:48:06 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD in NY Times (Friday)
In-Reply-To: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <20051023154806.GA97591@seekingfire.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2005 at 02:16:16PM -0400, Jim Brown wrote:
> 
> Didn't get a chance to write this yesterday, but FreeBSD was mentioned
> in the Times on Friday, Oct, 21.
> 
> Thomas Friedman's column 'Chinese Finding Their Voice' mentions how
> voices in China are now finding an expression through a website
> (Toodou.com) with podcasts and blogs.

Oh, neat! I can't read it, but that's a failing on my end ;-)

>   "Almost  all of the software that runs Toodou.com is from free
>   open-source material on the Web: an Apache Web server; FreeBSD, a
>   free Unix operating system; MySQL, a free database system; and PHP,
>   free programming lingo."

This is one of my pet-peeves: LAMP, the acronym that was supposed to
describe this sort of thing, is horribly ill-suited to the task.

L - Linux, or any of the 4 main BSDs, or OpenSolaris, or just about
    anything open source, really.
A - Apache, which luckily enough is usually the case (1.3 versus 2.0
    isn't addressed with "A" however).
M - MySQL. Or Postgres. Or flat-files, if they'll work in this case. Or
    SAPDB, SQLite, BerkeleyDB,  or any of the newer open source databases
    that are coming out.
P - PHP or Perl. Or Ruby-on-rails. Or any of about 10 bazillion other
    open source language options. Heck, Yahoo Stores was written in
    LISP (Paul Grahams writings are well worth the time to read).

*sigh* :-)

> Friedman is a pretty forward looking guy- check out his book - 'The
> World is Flat'  about the changes in business, technology and social
> structures.
>
> Full disclosure- I have no connection to the NY Times or to Thomas
> Friedman; just a fan.

That's one of the books that's sweep through the management ranks at one
of my client sites. I'm going to have to read it sometime, lots of the
folks who have read it are fairly enthusiastic about it.

-T


-- 
Microsoft would make it a car phone. No, I mean it'd have a car built in.
    -- A.S.R. quote (Joe Moore)



From bschonhorst  Sun Oct 23 12:21:45 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:21:45 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD in NY Times (Friday)
In-Reply-To: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <20051022181616.GA40043@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <7708fd680510230921g1b81e0aajc52f009578be634@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/22/05, Jim Brown <jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> wrote:
>
>
> Didn't get a chance to write this yesterday,
> but FreeBSD was mentioned in the Times on Friday, Oct, 21.
>
> Thomas Friedman's column 'Chinese Finding Their Voice'
> mentions how voices in China are now finding an expression
> through a website (Toodou.com <http://Toodou.com>) with podcasts and
> blogs.
>
> "Almost all of the software that runs
> Toodou.com <http://Toodou.com> is from free open-source material on the
> Web:
> an Apache Web server; FreeBSD, a free Unix operating
> system; MySQL, a free database system; and POHP, free
> programming lingo."


Nice to see FreeBSD in the Times! I'm sure this will lead to a few of my
coworkers telling me that BSD stuff I always talk about must be getting
pretty popular :)

Friedman is a pretty forward looking guy- check out his
> book - 'The World is Flat' about the changes in
> business, technology and social structures.


I guess his book is getting quite a bit of attention. I'm on a committee
which organizes an annual conference for technologists in independent
schools. Our keynote speak this year will be discussing this book so we made
it required reading for attendees, hope my copy arrives before the event...
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From bschonhorst  Sun Oct 23 12:25:28 2005
From: bschonhorst (Brad Schonhorst)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:25:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ONLamp: OpenBSD 3.8: Hackers of the Lost RAID
Message-ID: <7708fd680510230925v3e6ec255ofa2ba147e8908c77@mail.gmail.com>

In case anyone hasn't seen this yet...

http://www.onlamp.com/lpt/a/6270
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From mspitzer  Mon Oct 24 09:50:21 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:50:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>

I just came across this on the web, looks interesting:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/sysutils/smartmontools/pkg-descr

marc

--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From nycbug  Mon Oct 24 11:09:04 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:09:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 09:50:21AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> I just came across this on the web, looks interesting:
> 
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/url.cgi?ports/sysutils/smartmontools/pkg-descr

How does this compare to, say (taken from
<http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=atactl>):

	# atactl /dev/wd0c smartenable

	Enables the SMART support on /dev/wd0 for detection of early warning
	signs of device failure.

	0 * * * * /sbin/atactl /dev/wd0c smartstatus >/dev/null

	In a crontab(5) entry queries /dev/wd0 each hour for early warning signs
	of failure.  If the device exceeded one of the SMART thresholds, atactl
	will output `SMART threshold exceeded!' to stderr and cron(8) will mail
	it.

Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.

-Ray-



From lists  Mon Oct 24 12:20:32 2005
From: lists (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:20:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD in NY Times (Friday)
In-Reply-To: <20051023154806.GA97591@seekingfire.com>
Message-ID: <000101c5d8b6$dfd91300$3dd9a8c0@MZ>



Tillman Hodgson wrote on Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:48 AM:
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2005 at 02:16:16PM -0400, Jim Brown wrote:
> > 
> > Didn't get a chance to write this yesterday, but FreeBSD was mentioned
> > in the Times on Friday, Oct, 21.
> > 
> > Thomas Friedman's column 'Chinese Finding Their Voice' mentions how
> > voices in China are now finding an expression through a website
> > (Toodou.com) with podcasts and blogs.
> 
> Oh, neat! I can't read it, but that's a failing on my end ;-)
> 
> >   "Almost  all of the software that runs Toodou.com is from free
> >   open-source material on the Web: an Apache Web server; FreeBSD, a
> >   free Unix operating system; MySQL, a free database system; and PHP,
> >   free programming lingo."
> 
> This is one of my pet-peeves: LAMP, the acronym that was supposed to
> describe this sort of thing, is horribly ill-suited to the task.
> 
> L - Linux, or any of the 4 main BSDs, or OpenSolaris, or just about
>     anything open source, really.
> A - Apache, which luckily enough is usually the case (1.3 versus 2.0
>     isn't addressed with "A" however).
> M - MySQL. Or Postgres. Or flat-files, if they'll work in this case. Or
>     SAPDB, SQLite, BerkeleyDB,  or any of the newer open source databases
>     that are coming out.
> P - PHP or Perl. Or Ruby-on-rails. Or any of about 10 bazillion other
>     open source language options. Heck, Yahoo Stores was written in
>     LISP (Paul Grahams writings are well worth the time to read).
> 
> *sigh* :-)

I was frustrated too, but there is actually a name for it - AMP.  I dropped
the 'L' years ago for just this reason.


---
Hans Zaunere / President / New York PHP
   www.nyphp.org  /  www.nyphp.com






From scottro  Mon Oct 24 12:36:09 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:36:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Postfix consultant needed, fairly urgent
Message-ID: <20051024163609.GA85502@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In a nutshell, we need a postfix expert.  We will be transferring our
mail to an outside firm, but for the next few days, we need to get our
mailserver working.  It wasn't supposed to be a mailserver, (it's
running 6.0-RC1) and I actually had it semi functional with my limited
knowledge, but now it isn't and I don't have the knowledge to fix it.

It is for several domains (sendmail style domains were working)
authenticating with NIS.

If anyone is interested and could possibly do it today, please email me.

The server is in NJ, but I would think the work can be done remotely
from NY, Broadway and 38th.  (The server is in North Bergen if someone
is close by.)


- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Buffy: I don't wanna' bug Giles. He's still kinda' twitchy
when it comes to the subject of Angel.

Xander: Oh, it must be that whole 'Angel killed his girlfriend and
tortured him' thing, and Giles is petty when it comes to stuff like
that.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFDXQ15+lTVdes0Z9YRAh/PAJwLZZnEDsySNVWENB6XjU/IRFdKVACbBvss
BvgLtiIKAsbkAkv/BBnfDwU=
=U2l8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From mikel.king  Mon Oct 24 12:39:47 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:39:47 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD in NY Times (Friday)
In-Reply-To: <000101c5d8b6$dfd91300$3dd9a8c0@MZ>
References: <000101c5d8b6$dfd91300$3dd9a8c0@MZ>
Message-ID: <87120137-D03C-49C2-A469-C2B40991CC60@ocsny.com>


On Oct 24, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Hans Zaunere wrote:

>
>
> Tillman Hodgson wrote on Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:48 AM:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2005 at 02:16:16PM -0400, Jim Brown wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Didn't get a chance to write this yesterday, but FreeBSD was  
>>> mentioned
>>> in the Times on Friday, Oct, 21.
>>>
>>> Thomas Friedman's column 'Chinese Finding Their Voice' mentions how
>>> voices in China are now finding an expression through a website
>>> (Toodou.com) with podcasts and blogs.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, neat! I can't read it, but that's a failing on my end ;-)
>>
>>
>>>   "Almost  all of the software that runs Toodou.com is from free
>>>   open-source material on the Web: an Apache Web server; FreeBSD, a
>>>   free Unix operating system; MySQL, a free database system; and  
>>> PHP,
>>>   free programming lingo."
>>>
>>
>> This is one of my pet-peeves: LAMP, the acronym that was supposed to
>> describe this sort of thing, is horribly ill-suited to the task.
>>
>> L - Linux, or any of the 4 main BSDs, or OpenSolaris, or just about
>>     anything open source, really.
>> A - Apache, which luckily enough is usually the case (1.3 versus 2.0
>>     isn't addressed with "A" however).
>> M - MySQL. Or Postgres. Or flat-files, if they'll work in this  
>> case. Or
>>     SAPDB, SQLite, BerkeleyDB,  or any of the newer open source  
>> databases
>>     that are coming out.
>> P - PHP or Perl. Or Ruby-on-rails. Or any of about 10 bazillion other
>>     open source language options. Heck, Yahoo Stores was written in
>>     LISP (Paul Grahams writings are well worth the time to read).
>>
>> *sigh* :-)
>>
>
> I was frustrated too, but there is actually a name for it - AMP.  I  
> dropped
> the 'L' years ago for just this reason.
>
>
> ---
> Hans Zaunere / President / New York PHP
>    www.nyphp.org  /  www.nyphp.com
>

I was always fond of BAMP...;-) Luckily it doesn't quite work for  
Win32 cause WAMP just sounds too weak. Thank goodness the Trusted  
folks did jump on that band wagon either. 



From george  Mon Oct 24 15:23:50 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:23:50 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh from darwinports
Message-ID: <20051024192350.GD7622@sta.duo>

How do I start sshd from darwinports?  (OS X, Tiger) I'm
looking for rc.conf or something....  I get a message that,
/Library/Startupitems/OpenSSH does not have the proper security
settings, even after I choose "fix" and reboot as instructed, I
get the same message when I login. Also I have no host keys yet. I
know there is another step but I'm not sure what.

// George

-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From spork  Mon Oct 24 16:37:03 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:37:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510241635430.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:

> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.

It saved my iBook (using an os-x smart monitoring tool)...  Gave me enough 
time to transfer everything to a firewire drive before the internal drive 
tanked.  Good excuse to upgrade from IBM 4200 RPM to Seagate 5400 RPM too. 
:)

Charles

> -Ray-
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Mon Oct 24 21:10:15 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:10:15 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
Message-ID: <435D85F7.2080904@sddi.net>

I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .

I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid pro's), 
and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with Raid 0, 1, and 
10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives in this box, so why 
doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the minimum for all controllers for 
raid 5?

More info below. . .

Yes, I'm calling AMD tomorrow. . .

g

this is the raid controller:

pciide0 at pci2 dev 5 function 0 "CMD Technology SiI3114 SATA" rev 0x02: DMA

and I grep'd anything AMD-related. .

cpu0: AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 246 ("AuthenticAMD" 686-class) 2 GHz
pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0 "AMD 8151 Sys Control" rev 0x14
ppb0 at pci0 dev 1 function 0 "AMD 8151 AGP" rev 0x14
ppb1 at pci0 dev 6 function 0 "AMD 8111 PCI-PCI" rev 0x07
ohci0 at pci2 dev 0 function 0 "AMD 8111 USB" rev 0x0b: irq 10, version 
1.0, legacy support
uhub0: AMD OHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
ohci1 at pci2 dev 0 function 1 "AMD 8111 USB" rev 0x0b: irq 10, version 
1.0, legacy support
uhub1: AMD OHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
pcib0 at pci0 dev 7 function 0 "AMD AMD8111 LPC" rev 0x05
pciide1 at pci0 dev 7 function 1 "AMD 8111 IDE" rev 0x03: DMA, channel 0 
configured to compatibility, channel 1 configured to compatibility
"AMD 8111 SMBus" rev 0x02 at pci0 dev 7 function 2 not configured
"AMD 8111 ACPI" rev 0x05 at pci0 dev 7 function 3 not configured
auich0 at pci0 dev 7 function 5 "AMD 8111 AC97" rev 0x03: irq 9, AMD8111 
AC97
pchb1 at pci0 dev 24 function 0 "AMD AMD64 HyperTransport" rev 0x00
pchb2 at pci0 dev 24 function 1 "AMD AMD64 Address Map" rev 0x00
pchb3 at pci0 dev 24 function 2 "AMD AMD64 DRAM Cfg" rev 0x00
pchb4 at pci0 dev 24 function 3 "AMD AMD64 Misc Cfg" rev 0x00



From alex  Mon Oct 24 21:14:47 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:14:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D85F7.2080904@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242113250.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:

> I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .
> 
> I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid pro's),
> and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with Raid 0, 1, and
> 10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives in this box, so why
> doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the minimum for all controllers for
> raid 5?
Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid. 

http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html

Controller fired.

-alex




From dan  Mon Oct 24 21:19:22 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:19:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D85F7.2080904@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <435D4FDA.28204.4C73E6@localhost>

On 24 Oct 2005 at 21:10, George R. wrote:

> I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .
> 
> I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid pro's), 
> and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with Raid 0, 1, and 
> 10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives in this box, so why 
> doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the minimum for all controllers for 
> raid 5?

What BSD?  What versi
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From george  Mon Oct 24 21:20:12 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:20:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242113250.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242113250.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <435D884C.6040007@sddi.net>

alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
> 
> 
>>I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .
>>
>>I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid pro's),
>>and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with Raid 0, 1, and
>>10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives in this box, so why
>>doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the minimum for all controllers for
>>raid 5?
> 
> Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid. 
> 
> http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
> 
> Controller fired.

. . . aware of the grey area, but. . .

then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i can. . 
and these are the boards and controllers that iron systems sells. . .

g



From mikel.king  Mon Oct 24 21:21:44 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:21:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D85F7.2080904@sddi.net>
References: <435D85F7.2080904@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <9A58F29F-FC86-4FB1-A320-8634F80DB0CF@ocsny.com>

On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:10 PM, George R. wrote:

> I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .
>
> I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid  
> pro's), and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with  
> Raid 0, 1, and 10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives  
> in this box, so why doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the  
> minimum for all controllers for raid 5?
>
> More info below. . .
>
> Yes, I'm calling AMD tomorrow. . .
>
> g
>
> this is the raid controller:
>
> pciide0 at pci2 dev 5 function 0 "CMD Technology SiI3114 SATA" rev  
> 0x02: DMA


George,

     Have you checked the AMD site fo an bios updates for the main  
logic board? It's possible that they encountered a bug when the board  
was shipped and left that out rather than suffer numerous support  
calls. But you are correct that 3 drives is the minimum required to  
support raid 5. If for some funky reason they do not/will not support  
raid 5 then you'l pretty much be left adding your own controller to  
do it. That is unless you can live with 10 or 1, if your backup  
strategy is sound meaning you evaluate the risk properly and can live  
with it then 10 can work for you.

     It really all depends on your requirements.

cheers,
m



From george  Mon Oct 24 21:21:31 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:21:31 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .]
Message-ID: <435D889B.1010002@sddi.net>

oops. . .

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:20:55 -0400
From: George R. <george at sddi.net>
Reply-To: george at sddi.net
To: Dan Langille <dan at langille.org>
References: <435D4FDA.28204.4C73E6 at localhost>

Dan Langille wrote:
> On 24 Oct 2005 at 21:10, George R. wrote:
> 
> 
>>I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .
>>
>>I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid pro's), 
>>and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with Raid 0, 1, and 
>>10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives in this box, so why 
>>doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the minimum for all controllers for 
>>raid 5?
> 
> 
> What BSD?  What versi

Nothing to do with the version, since I'm in the Raid firmware. . . but
it's obsd 3.7

g




From alex  Mon Oct 24 21:23:27 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:23:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D884C.6040007@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242122020.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:

> > Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
> > 
> > http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
> > 
> > Controller fired.
> 
> . . . aware of the grey area, but. . .
> 
> then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i can. .  
> and these are the boards and controllers that iron systems sells. . .
You don't really do raid 1 or raid 0 on it either. It is fakeraid -
software raid implemented by the driver. And it supports "raid 1" or "raid 
0".

just because $vendor sells it, it doesn't mean its proper hardware raid.

-alex




From jba  Mon Oct 24 21:16:21 2005
From: jba (jeffrey.arnold)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:16:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D884C.6040007@sddi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242113250.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<435D884C.6040007@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0510242112420.7866@salsa.int.nyc.analogue.net>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:

:: . . . aware of the grey area, but. . .
:: 
:: then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i can. . and
:: these are the boards and controllers that iron systems sells. . .
:: 

Most on-board controllers shy away from doing raid 5 as it's quite a bit 
more computationally intensive than the simple bit shuffling of raid 
1/10.

If you need a good ata/sata hardware raid controller, check out the 
3ware 9500 series or the latest Areca stuff (ARC-11XX).

Good luck,
-jba
__
 [jba at analogue.net] :: analogue.networks.nyc :: http://analogue.net



From mikel.king  Mon Oct 24 21:30:56 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:30:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242122020.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242122020.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <AE1EF272-72AB-44FF-94A5-52BF33367319@ocsny.com>


On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:23 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
>
>
>>> Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
>>>
>>> http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
>>>
>>> Controller fired.
>>>
>>
>> . . . aware of the grey area, but. . .
>>
>> then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i  
>> can. .
>> and these are the boards and controllers that iron systems sells. . .
>>
> You don't really do raid 1 or raid 0 on it either. It is fakeraid -
> software raid implemented by the driver. And it supports "raid 1"  
> or "raid
> 0".
>
> just because $vendor sells it, it doesn't mean its proper hardware  
> raid.
>
> -alex

Um but doesn't it take software to run hardware. Personally the  
distinction is pointless. If the performance and data integrity are  
there then it is worth the risk. I personally find for my needs that  
the so called hardware raid is better than say windows disk mirroring  
of even vinum, as great a product as it is.
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From george  Mon Oct 24 21:43:44 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:43:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <AE1EF272-72AB-44FF-94A5-52BF33367319@ocsny.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242122020.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<AE1EF272-72AB-44FF-94A5-52BF33367319@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <435D8DD0.3030802@sddi.net>

Mikel King wrote:
> 
> On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:23 PM, alex at pilosoft.com 
> <mailto:alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
>>>>
>>>> http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
>>>>
>>>> Controller fired.
>>>>
>>>
>>> . . . aware of the grey area, but. . .
>>>
>>> then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i can. .  
>>> and these are the boards and controllers that iron systems sells. . .
>>>
>> You don't really do raid 1 or raid 0 on it either. It is fakeraid -
>> software raid implemented by the driver. And it supports "raid 1" or 
>> "raid 
>> 0".
>>
>> just because $vendor sells it, it doesn't mean its proper hardware raid.
>>
>> -alex
> 
> 
> Um but doesn't it take software to run hardware. Personally the 
> distinction is pointless. If the performance and data integrity are 
> there then it is worth the risk. I personally find for my needs that the 
> so called hardware raid is better than say windows disk mirroring of 
> even vinum, as great a product as it is.

Wait a minute here. . . this is getting muddled. . .

This has nothing to do with the OS, it's an AMD Opteron board with an 
SiI114 Raid controller on the motherboard. . .

And this is all pre-OS install. . . I haven't gotten to the point of 
installing the OS on a raid array. . .

g



From alex  Mon Oct 24 21:46:06 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:46:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D8DD0.3030802@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242145310.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:

> This has nothing to do with the OS, it's an AMD Opteron board with an
> SiI114 Raid controller on the motherboard. . .
Si3114 is *not a raid controller*

ktnxbye (sometimes, I do understand mickey's frustrations...:)




From mikel.king  Mon Oct 24 21:53:17 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:53:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D8DD0.3030802@sddi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242122020.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<AE1EF272-72AB-44FF-94A5-52BF33367319@ocsny.com>
	<435D8DD0.3030802@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <2F118F7F-9F45-4818-9351-1E99C8DCB7E9@ocsny.com>


On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:43 PM, George R. wrote:

> Mikel King wrote:
>
>> On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:23 PM, alex at pilosoft.com  
>> <mailto:alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Controller fired.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> . . . aware of the grey area, but. . .
>>>>
>>>> then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i  
>>>> can. .  and these are the boards and controllers that iron  
>>>> systems sells. . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You don't really do raid 1 or raid 0 on it either. It is fakeraid -
>>> software raid implemented by the driver. And it supports "raid 1"  
>>> or "raid 0".
>>>
>>> just because $vendor sells it, it doesn't mean its proper  
>>> hardware raid.
>>>
>>> -alex
>>>
>> Um but doesn't it take software to run hardware. Personally the  
>> distinction is pointless. If the performance and data integrity  
>> are there then it is worth the risk. I personally find for my  
>> needs that the so called hardware raid is better than say windows  
>> disk mirroring of even vinum, as great a product as it is.
>>
>
> Wait a minute here. . . this is getting muddled. . .
>
> This has nothing to do with the OS, it's an AMD Opteron board with  
> an SiI114 Raid controller on the motherboard. . .
>
> And this is all pre-OS install. . . I haven't gotten to the point  
> of installing the OS on a raid array. . .
>
> g
>

Nope got that. Just responding to Alex's raid purity stance, and  
being facetious 



From jfranks214  Mon Oct 24 22:00:19 2005
From: jfranks214 (Jonathan Franks)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:00:19 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510241635430.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510241635430.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <D2A68F1B-F606-49F8-9A61-4B191CD16671@taconic.net>


On Oct 24, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
>
>
>> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
>> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
>> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.
>>

I have a system that's been giving a SMART imminent failure warning  
for around six years now... I could shut it off in the BIOS but I  
find it amusing. (It's a non critical machine, obviously)

-Jonathan



From alex  Mon Oct 24 22:01:16 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <D2A68F1B-F606-49F8-9A61-4B191CD16671@taconic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242200410.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

> > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
> >> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
> >> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.
Yes. 

-alex




From mikel.king  Mon Oct 24 22:05:49 2005
From: mikel.king (Mikel King)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:05:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D8DD0.3030802@sddi.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242122020.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<AE1EF272-72AB-44FF-94A5-52BF33367319@ocsny.com>
	<435D8DD0.3030802@sddi.net>
Message-ID: <C5E8B86D-A21D-4337-8AD2-60C73E00898A@ocsny.com>


On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:43 PM, George R. wrote:

> Mikel King wrote:
>
>> On Oct 24, 2005, at 9:23 PM, alex at pilosoft.com  
>> <mailto:alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Controller fired.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> . . . aware of the grey area, but. . .
>>>>
>>>> then how come i could do raid 1 or 10, or at least it tells me i  
>>>> can. .  and these are the boards and controllers that iron  
>>>> systems sells. . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You don't really do raid 1 or raid 0 on it either. It is fakeraid -
>>> software raid implemented by the driver. And it supports "raid 1"  
>>> or "raid 0".
>>>
>>> just because $vendor sells it, it doesn't mean its proper  
>>> hardware raid.
>>>
>>> -alex
>>>
>> Um but doesn't it take software to run hardware. Personally the  
>> distinction is pointless. If the performance and data integrity  
>> are there then it is worth the risk. I personally find for my  
>> needs that the so called hardware raid is better than say windows  
>> disk mirroring of even vinum, as great a product as it is.
>>
>
> Wait a minute here. . . this is getting muddled. . .
>
> This has nothing to do with the OS, it's an AMD Opteron board with  
> an SiI114 Raid controller on the motherboard. . .
>
> And this is all pre-OS install. . . I haven't gotten to the point  
> of installing the OS on a raid array. . .
>
> g
>
Nope got that. Just responding to Alex's raid purity stance, and  
being facetious about the whole hardware raid thing... ;-)

But with regards to your sit, how critical is r5 to your install?





From spork  Mon Oct 24 22:09:28 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <D2A68F1B-F606-49F8-9A61-4B191CD16671@taconic.net>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510241635430.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<D2A68F1B-F606-49F8-9A61-4B191CD16671@taconic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242203020.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Jonathan Franks wrote:

> On Oct 24, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
>>> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
>>> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.
>
> I have a system that's been giving a SMART imminent failure warning for 
> around six years now... I could shut it off in the BIOS but I find it 
> amusing. (It's a non critical machine, obviously)

Well, the line I'm going with is this...  Generally speaking if SMART says 
it's bad, there's a good chance it is.  However, you can't rely on a SMART 
"everything's fine" message.  Sounds pretty grim, but I try to act on the 
warnings - they are enough to get the drive RMA'd if it's under warranty.

It kind of makes sense; isn't the main thing that SMART does is let you 
know that the drive has reallocated more than "X" bad blocks.  Of course 
it can't tell you anything about purely mechanical or electrical failures.

And speaking of drive failures and testing, I did not realize until 
recently that most any vendor's tools will diagnose any other vendor's 
drives.  I've been using the Seagate tool since they are nice enough to 
provide a floppy-sized bootable ISO.  Truly amazing that they pack a 
fairly usable GUI tool in 1.44MB.  Of all the tools I've played with, 
SeaTools seems to have the most verbose reporting...

Don't get me started on trying to test SCSI drives attached to a RAID 
controller...

Charles

> -Jonathan
>



From alex  Mon Oct 24 22:12:35 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242203020.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242212050.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> > I have a system that's been giving a SMART imminent failure warning
> > for around six years now... I could shut it off in the BIOS but I find
> > it amusing. (It's a non critical machine, obviously)
> 
> Well, the line I'm going with is this...  Generally speaking if SMART
> says it's bad, there's a good chance it is.  However, you can't rely on
> a SMART "everything's fine" message.  Sounds pretty grim, but I try to
> act on the warnings - they are enough to get the drive RMA'd if it's
> under warranty.
That's exactly it.

-alex




From spork  Mon Oct 24 22:20:07 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:20:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quasi-RAID [Was: AMD Raid question. . .]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242113250.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242113250.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242210260.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
>
> http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
>
> Controller fired.

I'd like to fork this debate off so George can go about his business while 
I ask tangential questions...

I've never understood the "quasi" hardware RAID that's popping up on more 
and more mainboards.  It does not fit either of the traditional 
definitions:

-Hardware RAID - you have either an add-on card, a ZCR card (Zero 
Channel RAID - leverages built-in scsi controllers), or an outboard 
scsi-scsi/ide-ide box.  All of these have a processor and drive 
controllers onboard to handle the RAID calculations and logic.  They hide 
the raw drives from the OS and present the configured RAID array instead.

-Software RAID - You use standard IDE/SCSI controllers and the OS deals 
with creating/maintaining the array.  The host CPU is used for all the 
XOR calculations when running RAID 5.  Booting may or may not be simple 
when a drive fails as you have to rely on the BIOS to boot off of the 
"good" drive if an element of the array fails.  This seems less complex 
with non-i386 processors as they don't have a clunky, hacked BIOS to deal 
with.

-Quasi-RAID - What George apparently has here and many people now call 
"Hardware RAID".  How does this work?  Is it basically a standard IDE 
controller?  Do they just load up a special BIOS that has enough smarts to 
know what to boot off of when there's a failure?  Why is the array 
"configured" in the BIOS?  How are the drives presented to the OS?

I'd love to know more about this, as it seems like it may be appropriate 
(and cheap) in some situations...

Thanks,

Charles

> -alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From george  Mon Oct 24 22:29:28 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:29:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242145310.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242145310.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <435D9888.5020501@sddi.net>

alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, George R. wrote:
> 
> 
>>This has nothing to do with the OS, it's an AMD Opteron board with an
>>SiI114 Raid controller on the motherboard. . .
> 
> Si3114 is *not a raid controller*
> 
> ktnxbye (sometimes, I do understand mickey's frustrations...:)

woah, alex, take it easy. . .

after doing some reading, it is the 'grey' area of hardware v software 
raid, but this list still isn't for uppity-ness like that. . .

If you are in the interface, it *does* look like a regular hardware raid 
configuration, ie, listing the raid options.

We generally have a good tone on this list, let's keep it that way.

g



From alex  Mon Oct 24 22:29:49 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Quasi-RAID [Was: AMD Raid question. . .]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242210260.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510242221100.11568-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> 
> > Hint: Most of the "hardware" raid is *not* hardware raid.
> >
> > http://linux.yyz.us/sata/faq-sata-raid.html
> >
> > Controller fired.
> 
> I'd like to fork this debate off so George can go about his business while 
> I ask tangential questions...
> 
> I've never understood the "quasi" hardware RAID that's popping up on more 
> and more mainboards.  It does not fit either of the traditional 
> definitions:
> 
> -Hardware RAID - you have either an add-on card, a ZCR card (Zero 
> Channel RAID - leverages built-in scsi controllers), or an outboard 
> scsi-scsi/ide-ide box.  All of these have a processor and drive 
> controllers onboard to handle the RAID calculations and logic.  They hide 
> the raw drives from the OS and present the configured RAID array instead.
> 
> -Software RAID - You use standard IDE/SCSI controllers and the OS deals
> with creating/maintaining the array.  The host CPU is used for all the
> XOR calculations when running RAID 5.  Booting may or may not be simple
> when a drive fails as you have to rely on the BIOS to boot off of the
> "good" drive if an element of the array fails.  This seems less complex
> with non-i386 processors as they don't have a clunky, hacked BIOS to
> deal with.
> 
> -Quasi-RAID - What George apparently has here and many people now call
> "Hardware RAID".  How does this work?  Is it basically a standard IDE
> controller?  Do they just load up a special BIOS that has enough smarts
> to know what to boot off of when there's a failure?  Why is the array
> "configured" in the BIOS?  How are the drives presented to the OS?
fakeraid is standard IDE with:
* BIOS support to boot off raid0 and broken raid1
* OS driver support to do software-raid as-configured-in-bios
* Driver presents to OS single device, and internally does multiple writes 
to reflect the chosen "raid" level

> I'd love to know more about this, as it seems like it may be appropriate
> (and cheap) in some situations...
It is almost always *better* to use software raid instead of fakeraid. 
Different vendors have different formats for storage of raid information - 
so moving the drives from one controller to another might well break your 
array. Vendor drivers are binary-only (with all problems resulting from 
that) - there are open-source reverse-engineered "drivers" for linux, that 
essentially are wrappers configuring standard softraid based on the 
BIOS-raid data on-disk. 

-alex




From okan  Mon Oct 24 23:22:30 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:22:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <9A58F29F-FC86-4FB1-A320-8634F80DB0CF@ocsny.com>
References: <435D85F7.2080904@sddi.net>
	<9A58F29F-FC86-4FB1-A320-8634F80DB0CF@ocsny.com>
Message-ID: <20051025032230.GB39010@yinaska.pair.com>

On Mon 2005.10.24 at 21:21 -0400, Mikel King wrote:
>     Have you checked the AMD site fo an bios updates for the main  
> logic board? It's possible that they encountered a bug when the board  
> was shipped and left that out rather than suffer numerous support  
> calls.

i'm not going to comment on the rest of this thread, however what mikel
mentions is a good idea if the hardware is what it is. 

story: my once favorite raid icp-vortex raid controller came in with
*no* raid options.  the menus in the card's bios were pretty and all
that but no go. after dumping the firmware then comparing it's md5 to
the one actually distributed by icp-vortex, i found my firmware was
borked. before re-flashing, i got in touch with icp-vortex and they
concurred. all was well after...but i just wanted to share that
*sometimes* it can be screwy.

maybe not the issue here, but for everyone's wasted bandwidth ;)

cheers,
okan



From dan  Tue Oct 25 06:03:27 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:03:27 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] AMD Raid question. . .
In-Reply-To: <435D8877.90601@sddi.net>
References: <435D4FDA.28204.4C73E6@localhost>
Message-ID: <435DCAAF.38.22C40F0@localhost>

On 24 Oct 2005 at 21:20, George R. wrote:

> Dan Langille wrote:
> > On 24 Oct 2005 at 21:10, George R. wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>I just got a new 2u Opteron that I'm putting a BSD on. . .
> >>
> >>I'm doing hardware RAID (leave me alone with any software raid pro's), 
> >>and for some reason, the raid firmware only comes up with Raid 0, 1, and 
> >>10 (and spare).  There are three x 300g SATA drives in this box, so why 
> >>doesn't Raid 5 show up?  Isn't three the minimum for all controllers for 
> >>raid 5?
> > 
> > 
> > What BSD?  What versi
> 
> Nothing to do with the version, since I'm in the Raid firmware. . . but 
> it's obsd 3.7

One might think so...

I had similar problems recently with FreeBSD 6.0-RC1.  I don't know 
what caused that.  My first attempts, changing cables, drives, etc, 
all failed.  A few days later, it just worked.

Random ideas:  Do all three drives appears in the firmware?  Is this 
a master/slave jumper issue?
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From scottro  Tue Oct 25 11:16:41 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:16:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] some thanks
Message-ID: <20051025151641.GA94950@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Recently, we have been in a situation where the people who knew how
things were set up are no longer with the company.  This has placed
those of us remaining in several difficult situations.

This list has been a lifesaver.  I wanted to make some public thanks,
first to the list for being here and being such a superb resource.

I want to thank Josh and Ike, George Georgalis, Francisco,
and especially Mikel King and Mike Hernandez, who were able 
to come and get our email up and running in a hurry.

I'm hoping I haven't left anyone out, and if I did, my apologies.

No doubt, I'll be asking for more help as time goes on.

- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Buffy: I told one lie... I had one drink... 
Giles: Yes. And you were very nearly devoured by a giant demon 
snake. The words, 'Let that be a lesson' are a tad redundant at 
this juncture. 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFDXkxZ+lTVdes0Z9YRAnDDAKCGQaZRMZqpM0ZPuAt1Yj9ecHX2qgCffNKP
HEvxz8nqmOqyYQFLGjxHSmA=
=vdom
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From nomadlogic  Tue Oct 25 12:49:09 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:49:09 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] help understanding pppoe process
Message-ID: <57d710000510250949q6b88e616k92e81398e2b2628a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
I've been having very spotty service on my home covad pppoe connection. I'm
using a DSL rotuer in bridged mode which connects to my 5.x FreeBSD box
running userland ppp and pf. It's been pretty good for a little while, but
recently has become very spotty. I've been going through my logs, but fear I
don't completely understand the in's and out's of pppoe. My
/etc/ppp/ppp.conf files looks like this:

(I've been trying to tune this setup hence the sloppy comments)
default:
# set log Phase Chat LCP IPCP CCP tun command
set log Phase Chat LCP IPCP tun command
pppoe:
set device PPPoE:xl0
set mtu max 1492
set mru max 1492
# set speed sync
set cd 5
# set timeout 120
# disable acfcomp protocomp
# deny acfcomp
set authname "foo"
set authkey "bar"
set dial
set login
--
pete at hunter:~$ ps axuww|grep ppp
root 23244 0.0 0.2 3372 2356 ?? Ss 7:34PM 0:15.02 /usr/sbin/ppp -quiet
-ddial -nat pppoe
pete at hunter:~$ uname -ar
FreeBSD hunter.nomadlogic.org <http://hunter.nomadlogic.org> 5.4-STABLEFreeBSD
5.4-STABLE #15: Sat Oct 22 22:31:16 PDT 2005 \
root at hunter.nomadlogic.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/HUNTER
i386
--


I am able to get a link and packets fly...then after some time the link will
stop responding and I am not able to ping my gateway. I kill ppp then
restart it and packets are flowing fine for about an hour or so. Wash hands,
repeat.

Grep'ing /var/log/ppp turns this bit up which I do not completely
understand:

Oct 23 03:01:22 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: IPCP: deflink: Oops, RCR in Initial.
Oct 23 03:01:25 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: LCP: deflink: RecvTerminateReq(159)
state = Opened
Oct 23 03:01:25 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: LCP: deflink: LayerDown
Oct 23 03:01:25 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: LCP: deflink: SendTerminateAck(159)
state = Opened
Oct 23 03:01:25 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: LCP: deflink: State change Opened
--> Stopping


So as I read this, my link is getting reset (possibly by covad) via this
RecvTerminateReq, but since I'm using -ddial in my ppp process I do a
reconnect. My question is, if I am reading this correctly is it normal for
ISP's to send the RecvTerminateReq's on static links? Is this something I
should look out for, or something that is acceptable for pppoe connections.

In any event, I guess I'll most likely have to turn my router off bridging
mode and use the sketchy packet filtering that comes with it to see if it's
my connection or who know's what. fun.

Thx,
-p


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From dlavigne6  Tue Oct 25 13:17:51 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] help understanding pppoe process
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510250949q6b88e616k92e81398e2b2628a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000510250949q6b88e616k92e81398e2b2628a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051025131413.B549@dru.domain.org>



On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> Oct 23 03:01:22 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: IPCP: deflink: Oops, RCR in Initial.


Adding this to ppp.conf should fix it:

disable ipv6cp

This should prevent IPCP from panicing and requesting a hangup as it won't 
receive any RCR (Receive Configure Requests) from IPv6CP.

Dru



From nomadlogic  Tue Oct 25 13:26:28 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:26:28 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] help understanding pppoe process
In-Reply-To: <20051025131413.B549@dru.domain.org>
References: <57d710000510250949q6b88e616k92e81398e2b2628a@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051025131413.B549@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <57d710000510251026w320aa7ccp37d9933b5b85ef55@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/05, Dru <dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:
>
> > Oct 23 03:01:22 hunter ppp[1081]: tun0: IPCP: deflink: Oops, RCR in
> Initial.
>
>
> Adding this to ppp.conf should fix it:
>
> disable ipv6cp
>
> This should prevent IPCP from panicing and requesting a hangup as it won't
> receive any RCR (Receive Configure Requests) from IPv6CP.
>
> Dru
>

OK execellent. I saw a thread about this on google/bsd and thought I had
tried that. Guess not ;) I'll give this a try and reply back to the list.

Thanks Dru!
-pete



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From maudeuser  Tue Oct 25 14:03:56 2005
From: maudeuser (Maude User)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:03:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Need to boot from CD and delete a file on the hard
	drive
Message-ID: <20051025180356.21385.qmail@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello All --
 
SUMMARY: 
I changed a configuration file and now I can no longer boot from my hard drive (but I can still 
boot from the CD). I would like to boot from the CD and undo my change to the configuration 
file -- but when I boot from the CD it automatically launches the install program. Is there a way
to boot from the boot CD and get a shell and make a change to a file on the hard drive? (I got 
an "emergency shell" after booting from the CD -- but I can't figure out how to access my hard 
drive filesystem from it.)

DETAILS:
I was trying to set up a serial console using the instructions here:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/serialconsole-setup.html
 
I typed the following at the prompt:
 
# echo 'console="comconsole"' >> /boot/loader.conf
 
then unplugged my regular keyboard and tried to reboot -- but the machine now freezes on 
bootup.
 
I now want to boot from a CD and remove the file /boot/loader.conf from the hard drive. Then I 
should be able to boot normally again from the hard drive.
 
I went into the BIOS and booted from the CD and this put me in the install program. I don't 
want to install everything again -- I just want to boot up from the CD and execute the following 
command at the prompt:
 
# rm /boot/loader.conf
 
After booting from the CD, I found a command in the install program to enter an "emergency 
shell" and accessed this shell by hitting ALT-F4 -- but if I do an "rm" command in this 
emergency shell, it doesn't apply to the filesystem on the hard drive -- it applies to the CD. I 
need to delete the file /boot/loader.conf while booting from the CD.
 
Is there any way to fix this without installing FreeBSD all over again?
 
Thanks.
 
Scott Alexander



		
---------------------------------
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
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From mspitzer  Tue Oct 25 14:46:44 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:46:44 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Need to boot from CD and delete a file on the hard
	drive
In-Reply-To: <20051025180356.21385.qmail@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20051025180356.21385.qmail@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510251146u7f1e6dbdx50d2c4ee4e0adb5f@mail.gmail.com>

just exit out of the installer and mount what ever / is to /mnt then
vi, I think it is there, the file in question remove the last line :wq
and reboot

marc

On 10/25/05, Maude User <maudeuser at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello All --
>
> SUMMARY:
> I changed a configuration file and now I can no longer boot from my hard
> drive (but I can still
> boot from the CD). I would like to boot from the CD and undo my change to
> the configuration
> file -- but when I boot from the CD it automatically launches the install
> program. Is there a way
> to boot from the boot CD and get a shell and make a change to a file on the
> hard drive? (I got
> an "emergency shell" after booting from the CD -- but I can't figure out how
> to access my hard
> drive filesystem from it.)
>
> DETAILS:
> I was trying to set up a serial console using the instructions here:
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/serialconsole-setup.html
>
> I typed the following at the prompt:
>
> # echo 'console="comconsole"' >> /boot/loader.conf
>
> then unplugged my regular keyboard and tried to reboot -- but the machine
> now freezes on
> bootup.
>
> I now want to boot from a CD and remove the file /boot/loader.conf from the
> hard drive. Then I
> should be able to boot normally again from the hard drive.
>
> I went into the BIOS and booted from the CD and this put me in the install
> program. I don't
> want to install everything again -- I just want to boot up from the CD and
> execute the following
> command at the prompt:
>
> # rm /boot/loader.conf
>
> After booting from the CD, I found a command in the install program to enter
> an "emergency
> shell" and accessed this shell by hitting ALT-F4 -- but if I do an "rm"
> command in this
> emergency shell, it doesn't apply to the filesystem on the hard drive -- it
> applies to the CD. I
> need to delete the file /boot/loader.conf while booting from the CD.
>
> Is there any way to fix this without installing FreeBSD all over again?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott Alexander
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>
>
>


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From mspitzer  Tue Oct 25 16:47:40 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 16:47:40 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd at price waterhouse japan
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510251347v3166a746tca569ae61f3ef48b@mail.gmail.com>

good article:
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1375194866;fp;2;fpid;1

marc
--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From nomadlogic  Tue Oct 25 16:57:24 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:57:24 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd at price waterhouse japan
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30510251347v3166a746tca569ae61f3ef48b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510251347v3166a746tca569ae61f3ef48b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510251357k21ecc9c6k7b14ce41f9176c73@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> good article:
> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1375194866;fp;2;fpid;1
>
> marc



you know I read this article and had mixed feelings about it. while it's
awesome to see another sucess story, i was a little worried about the whole
"just do it then let the management worry about it after you have made the
change." while it may have been successfull here, i'm sure we all have had
the joy of working on renegade projects...or atleast taking over renegade
projects gone bad. i dunno...maybe i'm just being a grump again :)
-pete

--
> "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
> form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
> we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method
> it
> can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
> inefficiency and demoralization."
> -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nycbug  Tue Oct 25 17:09:51 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:09:51 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd at price waterhouse japan
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510251357k21ecc9c6k7b14ce41f9176c73@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510251347v3166a746tca569ae61f3ef48b@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000510251357k21ecc9c6k7b14ce41f9176c73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051025210951.GA9823@syntax.cyth.net>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 01:57:24PM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> On 10/25/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > good article:
> > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1375194866;fp;2;fpid;1
> 
> you know I read this article and had mixed feelings about it. while it's
> awesome to see another sucess story, i was a little worried about the whole
> "just do it then let the management worry about it after you have made the
> change." while it may have been successfull here, i'm sure we all have had
> the joy of working on renegade projects...or atleast taking over renegade
> projects gone bad. i dunno...maybe i'm just being a grump again :)

This should answer some questions:

http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20051024113247&pid=27&mode=expanded

-Ray-



From nomadlogic  Tue Oct 25 17:12:26 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:12:26 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd at price waterhouse japan
In-Reply-To: <20051025210951.GA9823@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <8c50a3c30510251347v3166a746tca569ae61f3ef48b@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000510251357k21ecc9c6k7b14ce41f9176c73@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051025210951.GA9823@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000510251412j49307f9t1fbe138af4997666@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/25/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 01:57:24PM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> > On 10/25/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > good article:
> > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1375194866;fp;2;fpid;1
> >
> > you know I read this article and had mixed feelings about it. while it's
> > awesome to see another sucess story, i was a little worried about the
> whole
> > "just do it then let the management worry about it after you have made
> the
> > change." while it may have been successfull here, i'm sure we all have
> had
> > the joy of working on renegade projects...or atleast taking over
> renegade
> > projects gone bad. i dunno...maybe i'm just being a grump again :)
>
> This should answer some questions:
>
>
> http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20051024113247&pid=27&mode=expanded
>
> -Ray-
>

thanks for the link Ray!
-pete



--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nycbug  Tue Oct 25 17:59:02 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:59:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd at price waterhouse japan
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510251412j49307f9t1fbe138af4997666@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510251347v3166a746tca569ae61f3ef48b@mail.gmail.com>
	<57d710000510251357k21ecc9c6k7b14ce41f9176c73@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051025210951.GA9823@syntax.cyth.net>
	<57d710000510251412j49307f9t1fbe138af4997666@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051025215902.GA13604@syntax.cyth.net>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 02:12:26PM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> On 10/25/05, Ray Lai <nycbug at cyth.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 01:57:24PM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> > > On 10/25/05, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > good article:
> > > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1375194866;fp;2;fpid;1
> > >
> > > you know I read this article and had mixed feelings about it. while it's
> > > awesome to see another sucess story, i was a little worried about the
> > whole
> > > "just do it then let the management worry about it after you have made
> > the
> > > change." while it may have been successfull here, i'm sure we all have
> > had
> > > the joy of working on renegade projects...or atleast taking over
> > renegade
> > > projects gone bad. i dunno...maybe i'm just being a grump again :)
> >
> > This should answer some questions:
> >
> > http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20051024113247&pid=27&mode=expanded
> 
> thanks for the link Ray!

Always a pleasure. =)

-Ray-



From lists  Wed Oct 26 10:55:21 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:55:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Newsletter from O'Reilly
Message-ID: <20051026105521.22c7a868@genoverly.com>

-----------------------------------------------------------
Begin forwarded message:

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:16:34 -0700
Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, October 25

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
October 25, 2005
================================================================
----------------------------------------------------------------
Book News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Practical Development Environments
-Twisted Network Programming Essentials
-FileMaker Pro 8: The Missing Manual
-Beyond Java
-My Job Went to India 
-Open Sources 2.0
-Palm and Treo Hacks
-Programming Windows Presentation Foundation
-Asterisk: The Future of Telephony
-iWork '05: The Missing Manual
-Build Your Own Standards Compliant Website Using Dreamweaver 8
-Yahoo! Hacks
-BlackBerry Hacks
-JBoss at Work: A Practical Guide
-Essential PHP Security
-PHP in a Nutshell
-Internet Forensics
-Producing Open Source Software
-Retro Gaming Hacks
-Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual
-Essential SNMP, 2nd Edition
-PHPUnit Pocket Guide
-Visual Basic 2005 Jumpstart
-Linux Desktop Pocket Guide
----------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming Events
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Tom Limoncelli ("Time Management for System Administrators"), 
 New York City BSD User Group, New York, NY--November 2
-Jack Herrington ("Podcasting Hacks"), NCMUG, Rohnert Park, CA--
 November 15
-Tom Limoncelli ("Time Management for System Administrators") at the
 Boston Linux & Unix User Group, Boston, MA--November 16
-Sinan Si Alhir ("UML in a Nutshell") at the MilwaukeeSPIN Group,
 Milwaukee, WI--November 17
----------------------------------------------------------------
Conference News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-ETel Registration Now Open
-Conference List for 2006
----------------------------------------------------------------
News
----------------------------------------------------------------
-The Real Problem with Textbooks: A SafariU Editorial
-O'Reilly Authors on the Air
-Encrypting Voice: An Interview with Phil Zimmermann
-Dreamweaver 8 Does Standards
-My Top 10 CSS Tricks
-User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning 
 Lab Courses
-EuroOSCON--Doctorow on Europe's Coming Broadcast Flag
-What Is Ruby on Rails?
-An Introduction to Artificial Intelligence
-TextEdit's Default Format: RTF... Why?
-Security Myths: The Perimeter Is Everything
-C#: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: An Interview with 
 Anders Hejlsberg, Part 1
-Moving Past Java: An Interview with Bruce Tate
 Diagnostic Tests with Ant
-Canon 5D: First Impressions
-Hacking Your Car: How to Get Clean Audio and Video Signals into 
  Your Car
-iPod Boxes into Art
-Kid-Tested Haunted House Tricks

================================================
Book News
================================================
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***Practical Development Environments
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007965
Everyone wants a good technical environment for developing their
software, and "Practical Development Environments" contains helpful
guidelines for how to create and maintain a great development
environment. It discusses some of the current tools that are available,
covering different areas such as version control, build tools, testing
tools, bug tracking systems, documentation environments, release tools,
and maintenance.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/practicalde/

Chapter 2, "Project Basics," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/practicalde/chapter/index.html


***Twisted Network Programming Essentials
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100329
This title is a task-oriented look at Twisted, a Python-based network
application framework. Twisted is fast becoming indispensable to Python
network programmers. It supports common networking protocols such as
TCP/IP, SSH, and SMTP. Using Python and Twisted, you can develop web
services applications, email clients and servers, and just about any
other type of networking application that you can conceive.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/twistedadn/


***FileMaker Pro 8: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596005792
Used by millions worldwide, FileMaker Pro is an award-winning database
program for managing people, projects, images, assets, and other
information. But it doesn't come with a manual--"FileMaker Pro: The
Missing Manual" is the book that should have been in the box. With
practical information, countless expert tips, and invaluable guidance,
it's your guide to designing and building useful databases with the
powerful and pliable FileMaker Pro.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/fmakerprotmm/


***Beyond Java
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100949
In "Beyond Java," Bruce Tate, author of the Jolt Award-winning "Better,
Faster, Lighter Java," chronicles the rise of the most successful
language of all time, and then lays out in painstaking detail, the
compromises the founders had to make to establish success. If you are
agree with the book's premise--that Java's reign is coming to an
end--then this book will help you start to build your skills
accordingly. Beyond Java will teach you what a new language needs to
succeed, so when things do change, you'll be more prepared. And even if
you think Java is here to stay, you can use the best techniques from
frameworks introduced in this book to improve what you're doing in Java
today. 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/beyondjava/


***My Job Went to India 
Publisher: Pragmatic Bookshelf
ISBN: 0976694018
The American IT job market is slowly coming apart at the seams, and it's
all our fault. Most of us have been stumbling around letting our careers
take us where they may, and now we're surprised when companies are
shipping jobs overseas for a fraction of the price. It's time to take
control of our careers, and in the process, learn to stay both relevant
and employed. This book will show you how to take action to avoid
becoming yet another casualty of offshoring.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0976694018/


***Open Sources 2.0
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008023
"Open Sources 2.0" is a collection of insightful and thought-provoking
essays from today's technology leaders that explore open source's impact
on the software industry and reveal how open source concepts are
infiltrating other areas of commerce and society.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources2/

Beta Excerpt, "Introduction," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources2/chapter/index.html


***Palm and Treo Hacks 
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059610054X
Written for beginning to experienced Palm users, "Palm and Treo Hacks"
is full of practical, ingenious tips and tricks you can apply
immediately. Whether you're looking to master the built-in applications
or you want to trick out your Palm to the fullest, this book will
show you how to do it.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/palmtreohks/

Sample hacks are available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/palmtreohks/chapter/index.html


***Programming Windows Presentation Foundation
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101139
Get up to speed on Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF). By page two,
you'll have written your first WPF application, and by the end of
Chapter 1, "Hello WPF," you'll have completed a rapid tour of the
framework and its major elements including the XAML markup language,
the mapping of XAML to WinFX code; the WPF content model; layout;
controls, styles, and templates; graphics, and more.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/avalon/

Chapter 5, "Styles and Control Templates," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/avalon/chapter/index.html


***Asterisk: The Future of Telephony
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009623
This new cost-cutting guide offers a complete roadmap for installing,
configuring, and integrating Asterisk with existing phone systems,
opening the door to open source telephony. The authors walk you through
a basic dial plan step by step, and give you enough working knowledge to
set up a simple but complete system.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/asterisk/index.html

Chapter 5, "Dialplan Basics," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/asterisk/chapter/index.html


***iWork '05: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059610037X
While iWork '05 helps you create stunning documents and presentations,
it doesn't come with any in-depth documentation of its own. Refreshingly
entertaining and scrupulously detailed, our Missing Manual gives you all
the essentials of iWork '05, including countless undocumented tips,
tricks, and secrets that you won't find anywhere else. Best yet, you get
an objective look at iWork's capabilities, its advantages over similar
programs, and its limitations.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/iwork5tmm/index.html

Chapter 6, "Sharing Pages Documents," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/iwork5tmm/chapter/index.html


***Build Your Own Standards Compliant Website Using Dreamweaver 8
Publisher: SitePoint
ISBN: 0975240234
This book was written for any user of Dreamweaver MX who wants to create
standards compliant and fully accessible websites. Web standards are the
set of recommendations created by the W3C, which guide web developers in
making their websites fully accessible as well as making them easier to
maintain and develop. This book shows developers how to overcome
Dreamweaver's limitations and use it to create fully functional and 
standards compliant websites.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/0975240234/


***Yahoo! Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009453
Whether you want to become a power searcher, news monger, super shopper,
or innovative web developer, "Yahoo! Hacks" provides the tools to take 
you further than you ever thought possible.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/yahoohks/


***BlackBerry Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101155
The versatile and flexible BlackBerry handheld computing device allows
you to stay in touch and in-the-know--no matter where you are or where
you go. For both corporate and consumer users, "BlackBerry Hacks"
delivers tips, tools, and innovative ways to most effectively use the
all-in-one phone, inbox, organizer, and browser for phone calls, instant
messaging, email, organizing, web browsing, receiving RSS feeds, and
much more.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/blackberryhks/


***JBoss at Work: A Practical Guide
ISBN: 0596007345
Publisher: O'Reilly
Written for Java programmers who want to use JBoss on their projects,
this convenient guide from O'Reilly takes an in-depth look at JBoss, the
fastest growing open source tool on the market. Learn how to integrate
JBoss with other open source Java products such as Tomcat and Hibernate,
and much more. 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jboss/

Chapter 3, "Building and Deploying an EAR," are avaiable online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/jboss/chapter/index.html


***Essential PHP Security
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059600656X
The PHP scripting language works beautifully with other open source
tools, such as the MySQL database and Apache web server software, to
build interactive web applications. But given the frequency of attacks
on web sites, security is still an issue that developers need to
address. "Essential PHP Security" explains the types of attacks that
hackers use on web sites and how to correctly configure Apache and PHP
to guard against them. The author of "Essential PHP Security," Chris
Shiflett, is an internationally recognized expert in the field of PHP
security and his book shows developers how to guard against attacks by
writing secure PHP code.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phpsec/

Chapter 4, "Sessions and Cookies," can be found online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phpsec/chapter/index.html


***PHP in a Nutshell
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596100671
"PHP in a Nutshell" is a complete reference to the core of the language
as well as the most popular PHP extensions. The topic grouping, tips,
and examples in this book make it an essential reference for every PHP
programmer. It covers the functions commonly used by a majority of
developers so you can look up the information you need quickly. Whether
you're just getting started or have years of experience in PHP
development, "PHP in a Nutshell" is a valuable addition to your desk
library.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phpnut/

Chapter 16, "Manipulating Images," can be found online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phpnut/chapter/index.html


***Internet Forensics
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059610006X
This practical guide to Internet fraud gives you the skills you need to
fight back against the spammers, con artists, and identity thieves that
plague the Internet. The book shows you how to nab the bad guys by
extracting the information that lies hidden in every email message, web
page, and web server on the Internet. Real-world examples illustrate all
the major techniques discussed.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/internetforensics/

Chapter 4, "Obfuscation," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/internetforensics/chapter/index.html


***Producing Open Source Software
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596007590
This comprehensive guide offers several tried and true steps to help you
successfully manage the complex process of developing free software.
Topics include project management, developer motivation, technical
infrastructure to support collaboration, and project promotion.
Producing Open Source Software is ideal for developers starting their
own free software projects, or people who simply want to participate in
the process.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/producingoss/

Chapter 4, "Social and Political Infrastructure," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/producingoss/chapter/index.html


***Retro Gaming Hacks
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596009178
Video game journalist Chris Kohler serves up hard-nosed hacks for
reviving classic games. Want to game on an original system? Kohler shows
you how to hack ancient hardware, and includes a primer for home-brewing
classic software. Rather adapt today's equipment to run retro games?
Kohler provides emulation techniques, complete with instructions for
hacking a classic joystick that's compatible with a contemporary
computer.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/retrogaminghks/


***Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596006608
Becoming a Mac convert is easy--so long as you've got our new Missing
Manual. This incomparable guide delivers what Apple doesn't: everything
you need to know to smoothly and seamlessly move to a Mac. Bestselling
author David Pogue teams up with Adam Goldstein to cover every aspect of
the switch in a refreshingly funny and down-to-earth style.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/switchmacmm2/


***Essential SNMP, 2nd Edition
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596008406
Written for network and system administrators, this practical book
introduces the basics of SNMP and offers the technical background to use
it effectively. This updated edition covers version 3 and offers
valuable information on SNMP scripting and programming. Five new
chapters and a host of real examples have been added. Administrators
will attain a solid foundation for managing their networks, creating
managed objects, and extending the operation of SNMP agents. 
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/esnmp2/index.html

The complete set of examples is available at: 
http://examples.oreilly.com/esnmp2/


***PHPUnit Pocket Guide
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 0596101031
This handy guide answers all your PHPUnit questions, and then some.
Written by the tool's creator, "PHPUnit Pocket Guide" delivers insight
and sage advice not found anywhere else. It brings together
hard-to-remember information, syntax, and rules for working with this
popular code-testing tool. Perfect for developers of any level.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/phpunitpg/


***Visual Basic 2005 Jumpstart
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059610071X
Okay VB6 developers--time's up. Microsoft no longer supports this
version of Visual Basic, but VB 2005 offers several attractive reasons
to upgrade. Our jumpstart guide lets you test-drive the beta version of
VB 2005 with three hands-on projects that let you learn the new syntax
quickly. It's the painless way to migrate, and the perfect training
manual for moving to the world of .NET.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/vbjumpstart/

Chapter 4, "Developing a Windows Application, is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/vbjumpstart/chapter/index.html


***Linux Desktop Pocket Guide
Publisher: O'Reilly
ISBN: 059610104X
Using Linux doesn't have to be hard. This book introduces you to the
five most popular desktop distributions and covers essential topics such
as configuring video card's screen resolution, sound, and wireless
networking. Laptop issues are covered too. Explore desktop apps,
including browsers, IM, and email clients with the same functionality as
those used on Windows.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxdesktoppr/

Chapter 1, "Distributions," is available online:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxdesktoppr/chapter/index.html


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================================================
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================================================
***For more events, please see:
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***Tom Limoncelli ("Time Management for System Administrators"), New
York City BSD User Group, New York, NY--November 2	
Author Tom Limoncelli discusses techniques he's developed over the last
fifteen years including how to find time to get projects done, the best
way to manage interruptions from users, open source tools for tracking
requests, and how to turn chaos into free time.
http://nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Home&SUBM=126

***Jack Herrington ("Podcasting Hacks"), NCMUG, Rohnert Park,
CA--November 15
Jack will walk us through the basics of podcasting, starting with audio
recording using a variety of equipment that he will bring along. He also
covers multi-track editing and mixdown with Audacity, conversion to MP3,
and uploading to a podcasting enabled blog that integrates into iTunes.
http://www.ncmug.org/events.html#nov

***Tom Limoncelli ("Time Management for System Administrators") at the
Boston Linux & Unix User Group, Boston, MA--November 16
Tom discusses techniques he's developed over the last fifteen years
including how to find time to get projects done, the best way to manage
interruptions from users, open source tools for tracking requests, and
how to turn chaos into free time.
http://blu.org/cgi-bin/calendar/2005-nov
	
***Sinan Si Alhir ("UML in a Nutshell") at the MilwaukeeSPIN Group,
Milwaukee, WI--November 17
Author Sinan Si Alhir presents "The Art of Agility: Project Management
and Software Development" at a meeting of the Milwaukee Software Process
Improvement Network (SPIN) Group.
http://www.milwaukeespin.com/pn/html/index.php


================================================
Conference News
================================================
***ETel Registration Now Open
Emerging telephony networks enable a new generation of powerful
communication applications, which threaten established business
models--but more importantly, open up new opportunities and new markets.
O'Reilly's Emerging Telephony Conference, January 24-26 in San
Francisco, aims to articulate this revolution, provide a framework, and
spark creative discussions among enterprise managers, developers,
hackers, and sponsors interested in telephony. Join us as we explore
this exciting new territory and investigate its implications.
http://conferences.oreilly.com/etel/

Use code "etel06dsug" when you register, and receive 15% off the
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To register for the conference, go to:
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***Conference List for 2006 So Far

O'Reilly Emerging Telephony Conference
January 24-26, 2006
San Francisco, California
http://conferences.oreilly.com/etel/
   	
O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference 2006
March 6-9, 2006
San Diego, California
http://conferences.oreilly.com/etech/

MySQL Users Conference 2006
April 24-27, 2006
Santa Clara, California
http://www.mysqluc.com/

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
General News
---------------------
***The Real Problem with Textbooks: A SafariU Editorial 
The Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports that textbook prices
rose 186 percent from 1986 to 2004--twice the rate of inflation. This
populist revolt is getting lots of press, but the problem with textbooks
is deeper and more fundamental than high prices: expensive textbooks are
relics of the pre-internet world. O'Reilly CIO CJ Rayhill explicates and
highlights O'Reilly's web-based co-publishing tool: SafariU.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/10/21/problem-with-textbooks-safariu-editorial.html


***O'Reilly Authors on the Air:
11/5 10:00am PT--David Pogue talks about the Missing Manual series on
the "Digital Village" radio show.  Archives of the shows are available
online.
http://www.digitalvillage.org/

11/22  5:00PM PT David Pogue and Adam Goldstein interviewed on the
"Computer Outlook" radio show on "Switching to the Mac: The Missing
Manual, Tiger Ed." Podcast of the show online.
http://www.computeroutlook.com/

11/23  5:00pm PT--Jack Herrington on the "Computer Outlook" radio show
with host John Iasiulo on "Podcasting Hacks." Podcast of the show
online.
http://www.computeroutlook.com/


***Encrypting Voice: An Interview with Phil Zimmermann
VoIP Magazine recently interviewed Phil Zimmermann, creator of PGP, the
most widely used email encryption software. Phil discusses the urgency
of creating powerful encryption for VoIP, among other issues. Phil will
be speaking at O'Reilly's upcoming Emerging Telephony Conference,
January 24-26 in San Francisco.
http://www.voip-magazine.com/content/view/520/


***Dreamweaver 8 Does Standards
The latest incarnation of Dreamweaver--version 8--supports web standards
and the WCAG with more fervour than ever before. Rachel Andrew explains
the product's evolution, and shows how to set up Dreamweaver 8 for
standards-compliant development.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/dreamweaver-8-standards


***My Top 10 CSS Tricks
For years, designers have manipulated CSS to meet their needs. Now
Trenton has compiled his favourite tips to help you get more out of your
designs. From page-width, the text-transform command, and IE-specific
tricks, to hints on creating CSS documents for hand-held devices, these
powerful tips will save you time and hassle.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/top-ten-css-tricks



***User Group Members receive a special 50% discount on Learning Lab
Courses
As an O'Reilly User Group member, you save on all the courses in the
following University of Illinois Certificate Series:
-Linux/Unix System Administration 
-Web Programming
-Open Source Programming
-.NET Programming
-Client-Side

This offer ends December 31st, 2005.  To redeem, use Promotion Code
"ORALL1" to save 50%. Each course comes with a free O'Reilly book and a
7-day money-back guarantee. Register online:
http://learninglab.oreilly.com/

---------------------
Open Source
---------------------
***EuroOSCON--Doctorow on Europe's Coming Broadcast Flag 
In Cory Doctorow's closing keynote at O'Reilly's first-ever European
Open Source Convention, he stated, "Right now we find ourselves in the
midst of a global attack on free software. A global attack that is
supposed to uphold copyright, but that has no nexus with what copyright
actually does." At the heart of this attack, asserts Cory, is the DRM
and certain American entertainment companies' push for a Broadcast Flag
in Europe. Daniel Steinberg reports on Cory's keynote.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2005/10/21/doctorow-on-europe-broadcast-flag.html


***What Is Ruby on Rails?
Ruby on Rails is an impressive web development framework that will soon
reach version 1.0. While there's a lot of buzz, it can sometimes be
difficult to discern the steak beneath the sizzle. Curt Hibbs walks
through the features and pieces of Ruby on Rails to show how it fits
together and where its big benefits come from.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/10/13/what_is_rails.html

---------------------
Mac
---------------------
***An Introduction to Artificial Intelligence 
Have you ever thought about using an iSight to take and classify images,
such as those of a user sitting at the iMac? We have. And while we're
working on that tutorial, we thought it might be a good idea to first
publish a background piece on artificial intelligence.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/10/21/artificial-intelligence.html


***TextEdit's Default Format: RTF...Why? 
Rich Text Format (.rtf) is the default choice for Mac OS X's TextEdit.
Have you ever wondered why? Giles Turnbull takes a look at the RTF spec
and discusses its strengths and shortcomings...and possibly uncovers
why Apple chose it as the default for text processing.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/10/18/rtf.html

---------------------
Windows/.NET
---------------------
***Security Myths: The Perimeter Is Everything 
Is the perimeter the be-all and end-all of network defense? Mitch
Tulloch, author of Windows Server Hacks, takes a look at whether it's
time to kill the myth that perimeter defense is everything.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/10/18/security-myths-the-perimeter-is-everything.html


***C#: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: An Interview with Anders
Hejlsberg, Part 1 
Anders Hejlsberg, in charge of the ongoing development of the C#
programming language for Microsoft, talks about the past, present, and
future of C#. Among other topics, he covers the implementation of C#
generics (compared to Java), nullable types, and how language integrated
query is implemented.
http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2005/10/17/interview-with-anders-hejlsberg.html

---------------------
Java
---------------------
***Moving Past Java: An Interview with Bruce Tate
WebServicesSummit.com recently interviewed Bruce Tate about the future
of Java and web development. Bruce discusses scalable enterprise
applications, database-enabled applications, AJAX, and lightweight
solutions for web development, while questioning whether Java is still a
technology for the masses. Bruce is the author of the newly released
"Beyond Java."
http://www.webservicessummit.com/Articles/MovingPastJava.htm


***Diagnostic Tests with Ant 
Determining what's gone wrong with your software--source or binary--in a
remote location is no simple task. Before taking a call and walking the
user through error-prone troubleshooting, why not collect information
about the user's system and the application files? Koen Vervloesem shows
how you can do this with Ant.
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2005/10/12/diagnostic-tests-with-ant.html

---------------------
Digital Media
---------------------
***Canon 5D: First Impressions
The first thing that's noticeable about the EOS 5D is that it is a
full-frame camera. I took a shot out of my hotel window with an EF 24-70
L zoom lens at 24mm. My reaction was, "So that's where my wide-angle has
been hiding all these years." James Duncan Davidson reports on the Canon
5D after his first assignment with it.
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/10/13/canon-5d.html


***Hacking Your Car: How to Get Clean Audio and Video Signals into 
  Your Car 
In the living room, red, white, and yellow RCA jacks are the universal
standard for input. Wouldn't it be nice if car manufacturers did the
same and put these jacks in your car? Damien Stolarz thinks so, and
shows you how to hack your ride to get a clean audio and video signal
into your car. Damien is the author of "Car PC Hacks." 
http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/2005/10/05/audio-video-hack-for-your-car.html

---------------------
MAKE
---------------------
***iPod Boxes into Art
There are millions and millions of iPods out there, but what happens to
all the empty boxes? The packaging is pretty nice, and at this point, as
iconic as the iPod itself. So in Maker spirit, here is a photo diary of
HOW TO turn an empty iPod into a little robot-looking guy. Made with
just the packaging materials, hot glue, and paint, it could be a fun
project for kids.
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2005/10/how_to_make_a_robot_statue_fro.html


***Kid-Tested Haunted House Tricks
Eric Wilhelm's Halloween Haunted House Controller project in Make 03
explained how to build a multi-relay controller board that synchronizes
lights, sounds, and other effects with soundtracks playing through
Winamp on a laptop. This article describes some of the scare scenarios
that Eric has staged using this controller, plus some other kid-tested
tricks from haunted houses he's built.
http://www.makezine.com/extras/27.html


Sample Projects from MAKE:
http://makezine.com/samples/



================================================
>From Your Peers
================================================
***Don't forget to check out the O'Reilly UG wiki to see what user
groups around the globe are up to:
http://wiki.oreillynet.com/usergroups/index.cgi

Until next time--




From nomadlogic  Wed Oct 26 11:16:25 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:16:25 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Sysadmin Scripting Training
Message-ID: <57d710000510260816h2b36725fq64ff2cf43830b503@mail.gmail.com>

So I work with a couple guy's who have been doing the Sysadmin thing for a
while. They are well versed in IRIX and Linux support (providing desktop
support, OS install's/upgrades, basic network admin, hardware support,
etc.). Now they have not had any formal CS training, and have done little in
the way of programming (aside from writing loops in thier shell's and quick
one off shell scripts) but want to take their admin skills to the next level
which I think is a great thing. I've been trying to get them to go through
the Camel book, but I think these guy's may be better suited to taking a
more structured approach to learning basic programming/scripting skills.
I've seen this link and have no opinion on it yet (especially since I tend
to fail spectacularly in structured class room environments):

http://oreilly.useractive.com/courses/asac4.php3?course=asac4&partnerid=18

So what do you all think...sysadmin scripting is it a skill that you just
have to teach yourself or are these online training courses worth it? I'm
sure there is at least one person here with an opinion on this ;^)

-pete

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From nycbug  Wed Oct 26 12:07:53 2005
From: nycbug (Ray Lai)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:07:53 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Sysadmin Scripting Training
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510260816h2b36725fq64ff2cf43830b503@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000510260816h2b36725fq64ff2cf43830b503@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051026160753.GB19616@syntax.cyth.net>

On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 08:16:25AM -0700, pete wright wrote:
> So I work with a couple guy's who have been doing the Sysadmin thing for a
> while. They are well versed in IRIX and Linux support (providing desktop
> support, OS install's/upgrades, basic network admin, hardware support,
> etc.). Now they have not had any formal CS training, and have done little in
> the way of programming (aside from writing loops in thier shell's and quick
> one off shell scripts) but want to take their admin skills to the next level
> which I think is a great thing. I've been trying to get them to go through
> the Camel book, but I think these guy's may be better suited to taking a
> more structured approach to learning basic programming/scripting skills.
> I've seen this link and have no opinion on it yet (especially since I tend
> to fail spectacularly in structured class room environments):
> 
> http://oreilly.useractive.com/courses/asac4.php3?course=asac4&partnerid=18
> 
> So what do you all think...sysadmin scripting is it a skill that you just
> have to teach yourself or are these online training courses worth it? I'm
> sure there is at least one person here with an opinion on this ;^)

Personally, I find it easiest to learn by having a goal.  I want
to automate this.  I want to change the output of this.  Then look
into existing code and figure out why it does what it does, and how
it can be changed to do what I want.

I've never been able to learn how to code from a book unless it's
something I already know very well, in which case the book just
fills in the gaps.  Doing actual coding has always worked much
better.

That said, taking classes also worked.  It gives you homework to
do, which I'm assuming will be coding problems, and a person to ask
questions if you're truly lost.

-Ray-



From lists  Wed Oct 26 15:18:48 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:18:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Que and Sams Open Source User Group Newsletter
Message-ID: <20051026151848.4a789d17@genoverly.com>

-----------------------------------------------------------
Begin forwarded message:

Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:44:39 -0500
Subject: Que and Sams Open Source User Group Newsletter


************************************************************
*  If you can see this, your e-mail reader cannot display  *
*  HTML. You can read the Newsletter on the site at        *
*  http://www.samspublishing.com/osugnewsletter            *
************************************************************



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From kacanski_s  Wed Oct 26 17:28:07 2005
From: kacanski_s (Aleksandar Kacanski)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Need some help with contract interpretation ...
Message-ID: <20051026212808.80756.qmail@web53609.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,
I am looking for someone who could help me with the IT
contract dispute. If anyone knows someone with legal
advice please let them contact me of line at
845-664-2627.

Regards,

Aleksandar Kacanski

Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski


		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com



From scottro  Wed Oct 26 18:13:09 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:13:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
Message-ID: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've gottten quite used to using my FreeBSD workstation as desktop.  One
of the many things I do is pay Amex bills online.

I see that they now have a flash heavy site.  In native opera it
wouldn't work--I'd click pay bill and nothing would happen.

In native firefox, it froze the browser as do some other flash heavy
sites.  

In linux-firefox which I keep for flash-heavy sites, such as
tvguide.com's listings, it just kept redirecting it back to something
else, so I still couldn't pay my bill.

So, I booted into ArchLinux, and used its firefox.  Linux's firefox
flash support is a bit better.  

I then tried, after editing libmap.conf to temporarily disable flash.
I'm sure there's an easier way to do it, but it wasn't something I was
going to google this week.  :)


That will also work. 

I called them to complain (as there's no email address easily findable
on the site for such things) and got an address that can be used to mail
complaints about the site.  I plan to write a message of complaint to
them, more to make myself feel better than anything else.   They could,
I suppose, argue that the site works with non-Windows O/S's, as Linux
works, but still, I feel they should offer a non-flash version.

As this email is more to vent to a (hopefully) sympathetic audience, I'm
not going to put the snail mail address to send complaints here.  If
anyone wants it, feel free to email me off list.

What annoys me is that their site has always worked without
trouble--however, now, they have an announcement about how their site is
best viewed with flash, blah blah. 

Grouchily yours,


- -- 

Scott Robbins

PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Angel: Oz. 
Oz: Angel.
Angel: Nice surprise.
Oz: Thanks.
Angel: Staying long?
Oz: Few days.
Doyle: They always like this?
Oz: No, we're usually laconic.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFDX/91+lTVdes0Z9YRAlILAJ9pz3br5RSWeS/R2VIqKtywtB+vXwCfX3OJ
fkP+vNSdw7Nl1J6w+mzcCyY=
=G4hr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From spork  Wed Oct 26 18:18:06 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:18:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510261816050.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Scott Robbins wrote:

> What annoys me is that their site has always worked without
> trouble--however, now, they have an announcement about how their site is
> best viewed with flash, blah blah.

That's just moronic.  If they want to make the sales/marketing section 
flash-heavy, fine, but to do that on the account management section is 
just completely moronic.  I guess they also figure that no one is using 
dialup anymore either...

Charles

> Grouchily yours,
>
>
> - --
>
> Scott Robbins
>
> PGP keyID EB3467D6
> ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
> gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
>
> Angel: Oz.
> Oz: Angel.
> Angel: Nice surprise.
> Oz: Thanks.
> Angel: Staying long?
> Oz: Few days.
> Doyle: They always like this?
> Oz: No, we're usually laconic.
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD)
>
> iD8DBQFDX/91+lTVdes0Z9YRAlILAJ9pz3br5RSWeS/R2VIqKtywtB+vXwCfX3OJ
> fkP+vNSdw7Nl1J6w+mzcCyY=
> =G4hr
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From chsnyder  Wed Oct 26 18:20:08 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:20:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510261816050.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510261816050.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>
Message-ID: <b76252690510261520y22effc50of0f4eee9a58683c5@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/26/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Scott Robbins wrote:
>
> > What annoys me is that their site has always worked without
> > trouble--however, now, they have an announcement about how their site is
> > best viewed with flash, blah blah.
>
> That's just moronic.  If they want to make the sales/marketing section
> flash-heavy, fine, but to do that on the account management section is
> just completely moronic.  I guess they also figure that no one is using
> dialup anymore either...
>


And also, Flash is so obviously secure and easy to audit, right?


--
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From bob  Wed Oct 26 18:41:04 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:41:04 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <b76252690510261520y22effc50of0f4eee9a58683c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510261816050.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>
	<b76252690510261520y22effc50of0f4eee9a58683c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41503DAF-A681-4133-9AE9-40400873BD96@redivi.com>


On Oct 26, 2005, at 3:20 PM, csnyder wrote:

> On 10/26/05, Charles Sprickman <spork at bway.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Scott Robbins wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What annoys me is that their site has always worked without
>>> trouble--however, now, they have an announcement about how their  
>>> site is
>>> best viewed with flash, blah blah.
>>>
>>
>> That's just moronic.  If they want to make the sales/marketing  
>> section
>> flash-heavy, fine, but to do that on the account management  
>> section is
>> just completely moronic.  I guess they also figure that no one is  
>> using
>> dialup anymore either...
>>
>>
>
>
> And also, Flash is so obviously secure and easy to audit, right?

Well, Flash does have a much much better track record than more or  
less any other browser technology.  Security is something Macromedia  
does put a lot of time into, and the people on that part of the  
player team seem to know what they're doing (I met with them a few  
weeks ago).

-bob




From jesse  Wed Oct 26 23:41:58 2005
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:41:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
Message-ID: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>

I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just going for a carp based solution?

-jesse



From mspitzer  Thu Oct 27 00:48:21 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:48:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510262148q8ae2465x1ea3d5221ea606e1@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/26/05, Jesse Callaway <jesse at theholymountain.com> wrote:
> I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just going for a carp based solution?
>
> -jesse

then you need to make connectins "sticky", a given client always
connects to a specific server.  I think you can do that in openbsd 3.8
and it might be in 3.7 also.  Or you couls buy a cisco local director,
or what ever replaced it.

marc


> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>


--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From lists  Thu Oct 27 08:07:24 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:07:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <20051027080724.56ab4698@genoverly.com>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:41:58 -0400
Jesse Callaway <jesse at theholymountain.com> wrote:

> I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember
> cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and
> don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just
> going for a carp based solution?
> 
> -jesse

Yes, just make a carp interface on both with the same ip and don't
forget to set net.inet.carp.arpbalance in sysctl.

Michael



From mspitzer  Thu Oct 27 09:27:24 2005
From: mspitzer (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:27:24 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <20051027080724.56ab4698@genoverly.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
	<20051027080724.56ab4698@genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30510270627i4828a729gd6b4ddf1339ca315@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/27/05, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:41:58 -0400
> Jesse Callaway <jesse at theholymountain.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember
> > cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and
> > don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just
> > going for a carp based solution?
> >
> > -jesse
>
> Yes, just make a carp interface on both with the same ip and don't
> forget to set net.inet.carp.arpbalance in sysctl.

How will the cookies be managed?

marc

--
"We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that
we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion,
inefficiency and demoralization."
-Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD



From lists  Thu Oct 27 09:56:35 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:56:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30510270627i4828a729gd6b4ddf1339ca315@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
	<20051027080724.56ab4698@genoverly.com>
	<8c50a3c30510270627i4828a729gd6b4ddf1339ca315@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051027095635.149545fd@genoverly.com>

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:27:24 -0400
Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> How will the cookies be managed?

cookies are client side.



Michael



From okan  Thu Oct 27 10:06:12 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:06:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <20051027140612.GD68036@yinaska.pair.com>

On Wed 2005.10.26 at 23:41 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote:
> I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just going for a carp based solution?

depends on what the session requirements are of the application.



From jesse  Thu Oct 27 10:53:54 2005
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:53:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <20051027140612.GD68036@yinaska.pair.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
	<20051027140612.GD68036@yinaska.pair.com>
Message-ID: <200510271053.54599.jesse@theholymountain.com>

On Thursday 27 October 2005 10:06 am, Okan Demirmen says:
> On Wed 2005.10.26 at 23:41 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote:
> > I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just going for a carp based solution?
> 
> depends on what the session requirements are of the application.

unfortunately I don't know much about the web app yet, and this long term session life came into discussion without anyone knowing the specifics. I'll find out today and hopefully be able to figure it all out.
The cookies were injected by the load balancer (serious mangling) and this was how it kept track of what clients were talking to which servers. Seems a bit of an overkill, but if users need to be logged in and the application instances don't communicate through a backend, then this is what the solution can be.

-jesse



From trish  Thu Oct 27 11:09:29 2005
From: trish (Trish Lynch)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:09:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] load balancing
In-Reply-To: <200510271053.54599.jesse@theholymountain.com>
References: <200510262341.58552.jesse@theholymountain.com>
	<20051027140612.GD68036@yinaska.pair.com>
	<200510271053.54599.jesse@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <20051027110756.P6864@ultra.bsdunix.net>

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Jesse Callaway wrote:

> On Thursday 27 October 2005 10:06 am, Okan Demirmen says:
>> On Wed 2005.10.26 at 23:41 -0400, Jesse Callaway wrote:
>>> I'm going to make a load balancer for some web servers and I remember cookies being involved the last time. I forget what that was about and don't want to do it again. Is there anything I'm missing with just going for a carp based solution?
>>
>> depends on what the session requirements are of the application.
>
> unfortunately I don't know much about the web app yet, and this long term session life came into discussion without anyone knowing the specifics. I'll find out today and hopefully be able to figure it all out.
> The cookies were injected by the load balancer (serious mangling) and this was how it kept track of what clients were talking to which servers. Seems a bit of an overkill, but if users need to be logged in and the application instances don't communicate through a backend, then this is what the solution can be.
>
> -jesse

I hate to say this, because I essentially make a living out of replacing 
Linux systems, but LVS and keepalived on linux is the best open source 
load balancing system I've seen. It can be a pain to set up, but once its 
working its well behaved and does everything a Cisco lbs can do.

-Trish



-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Ecartis Core Team 			      trish at listmistress.org
EFNet IRC Operator/SysAdmin @ irc.dkom.at             AilleCat at EFNet
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16



From lists  Thu Oct 27 11:35:23 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
Message-ID: <20051027113334.C59708@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Scott Robbins wrote:

> What annoys me is that their site has always worked without
> trouble


Hm.. strange about Firefox..
Amex site has not liked Opera in FreeBSD for a while.. at least the Opera 
version I use.. however I have been happily paying bills with Firefox.

After their latest redesign I did notice the site was more flash heavy, 
but I seem to recall I was able to do everything I needed.. This was about 
a month ago.. This weekend is time to pay amex cards again.. so will see 
how that goes..



From scottro  Thu Oct 27 11:46:01 2005
From: scottro (Scott Robbins)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:46:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <20051027113334.C59708@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
	<20051027113334.C59708@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <20051027154601.GA63784@uws1.starlofashions.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:35:23AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Scott Robbins wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hm.. strange about Firefox..
> Amex site has not liked Opera in FreeBSD for a while.. at least the Opera 
> version I use.. however I have been happily paying bills with Firefox.
> 
> After their latest redesign I did notice the site was more flash heavy, but I 
> seem to recall I was able to do everything I needed.. This was about a month 
> ago.. This weekend is time to pay amex cards again.. so will see how that 
> goes..

You're right--now that you mention it, I did have to use firefox to pay
bills.  However, this month, I think you're in for a surprise.  You may
need my complex, sophisticated script, killfire.sh

#!/bin/sh
FPID=$(pgrep firefox)
kill $FPID

as you can't close it with a mouseclick when it does this. 

Neither my wife nor myself had any problem last month.  

FWIW, if you run into the same problem, I solved it by temporarily
commenting out the flash entries in /etc/libmap.conf.  I forget if I had
to log out or just restart X.  If they don't change their site, I
imagine I'll make a script to temporarily sub libmap.conf with one that
doesn't have flash enabled. 

(This is assuming that you use the linuxpluginwrapper port to get flash
working with firefox.)


- -- 

Scott

GPG KeyID EB3467D6
( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2  A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6)
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Riley: Buffy . . . I feel like we've gotten really close. At 
least I thought we had. I don't know much about Angel or your 
relationship with him . . but . . . all I ask is . . if you're 
gonna break heart, do it fast. 
Buffy: What? You think that Angel and I...
Riley: Didn't you? 
Buffy: No. Of course not. How can you even ask me that? 
Riley: I don't know. Xander said... 
Buffy: Xander?! Oh, he's the deadest man in Deadonia. 

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From lists  Thu Oct 27 12:15:38 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:15:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Sysadmin Scripting Training
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510260816h2b36725fq64ff2cf43830b503@mail.gmail.com>
References: <57d710000510260816h2b36725fq64ff2cf43830b503@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051027121319.Y59923@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> So what do you all think...sysadmin scripting is it a skill that you just
> have to teach yourself or are these online training courses worth it? I'm
> sure there is at least one person here with an opinion on this ;^)


I think learning in general is a case by case scenario. Some people will 
learn from a class better while others would learn more by solving 
problems. The question you should be asking yourself is how do YOU learn 
best.

Personally I learn best from doing a task and finding simmilar programs on 
the net.. or from books.. it depends on the task at hand.

Coding type of tasks.. I learn best by doing...
Admin type of tasks I find books very helpfull and help me save a lot of 
time.



From lists  Thu Oct 27 12:18:32 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:18:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <20051027154601.GA63784@uws1.starlofashions.com>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
	<20051027113334.C59708@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051027154601.GA63784@uws1.starlofashions.com>
Message-ID: <20051027121650.W59923@zoraida.natserv.net>

> (This is assuming that you use the linuxpluginwrapper port to get flash
> working with firefox.)

I don't have anything that plays flash on my freebsd machines. For the few 
sites I HAVE to use the site and it has flash.. sadly I have just been 
using my Windows machine (two machines in a KVM). Fortunately.. there are 
few sites I HAVE to use.. that use flash to the point I have to use the 
windows box.



From nomadlogic  Thu Oct 27 12:39:35 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:39:35 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Sysadmin Scripting Training
In-Reply-To: <20051027121319.Y59923@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <57d710000510260816h2b36725fq64ff2cf43830b503@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051027121319.Y59923@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000510270939y6f2f8321i28758492ac2a8f51@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/27/05, Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:
>
> > So what do you all think...sysadmin scripting is it a skill that you
> just
> > have to teach yourself or are these online training courses worth it?
> I'm
> > sure there is at least one person here with an opinion on this ;^)
>
>
> I think learning in general is a case by case scenario. Some people will
> learn from a class better while others would learn more by solving
> problems. The question you should be asking yourself is how do YOU learn
> best.
>
> Personally I learn best from doing a task and finding simmilar programs on
> the net.. or from books.. it depends on the task at hand.
>
> Coding type of tasks.. I learn best by doing...
> Admin type of tasks I find books very helpfull and help me save a lot of
> time.
>

Yea I agree with you regarding it being a case by case basis. I'm more of a
"tactile kenetic learner" or one that needs to actually experience things
first hand to understand them(at least that's what they told me when i was
failing out of grade school ;).

I guess what I should have asked is if people have had any experience with
these online training courses. From what I know about these guy's I think
they would do OK in a structured environment, but what I *don't* know is if
these courses are just online tutorials that cost money.

-pete

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From jesse  Thu Oct 27 12:42:48 2005
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:42:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <200510271242.49240.jesse@theholymountain.com>

On Monday 24 October 2005 11:09 am, Ray Lai says:
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 09:50:21AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
... 
> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.
> 
> -Ray-

Yeah, but it was just a desktop computer. I've only see it work once.

-jesse



From spork  Thu Oct 27 19:18:37 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <200510271242.49240.jesse@theholymountain.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
	<200510271242.49240.jesse@theholymountain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510271916280.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Jesse Callaway wrote:

> On Monday 24 October 2005 11:09 am, Ray Lai says:
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 09:50:21AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> ...
>> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
>> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
>> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.
>>
>> -Ray-
>
> Yeah, but it was just a desktop computer. I've only see it work once.

The other day I had an adaptec RAID card mark a drive in a mirror dead 
based on the SMART info.  To add insult to injury, the other drive in the 
mirror did not have SMART errors, but it also got marked bad about an hour 
later and was clearly having troubles.

While in general I'm learning that these Adaptec RAID controllers just 
kind of suck, they apparently have a number of ways of deciding if a drive 
is "bad" and one of those is SMART.

Charles

> -jesse
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From jfranks214  Thu Oct 27 20:57:01 2005
From: jfranks214 (Jonathan Franks)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:57:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242203020.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510241635430.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
	<D2A68F1B-F606-49F8-9A61-4B191CD16671@taconic.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242203020.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <77D5199F-229D-4669-BB4F-C938FC8611B2@taconic.net>


On Oct 24, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Jonathan Franks wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 24, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?  I mean, has anyone actually
>>>> received any SMART warnings?  All my hard drives have passed with
>>>> flying colors all the time, even questionable ones.
>>>>
>>
>> I have a system that's been giving a SMART imminent failure  
>> warning for around six years now... I could shut it off in the  
>> BIOS but I find it amusing. (It's a non critical machine, obviously)
>>
>
> Well, the line I'm going with is this...  Generally speaking if  
> SMART says it's bad, there's a good chance it is.  However, you  
> can't rely on a SMART "everything's fine" message.  Sounds pretty  
> grim, but I try to act on the warnings - they are enough to get the  
> drive RMA'd if it's under warranty.

Well, I agree, but the machine in question fell victim to what I  
presume is a Windows "bug" of sorts that may simply be a piece of  
history at this point.... but what I experienced repeatedly at the  
time (around 5 or 6 years back) was that if you had a Win NT box  
formatted with NTFS, and then for whatever reason decided to format  
with FAT32 and load Win9x, the drive would report SMART failure  
around 60 percent of the time. If you then fdisked the drive and  
tried again, it would disappear and everything would work fine (for a  
Windows box anyhow).

It's not really valuable input, and for that I apologize, but I  
couldn't help myself when I saw the thread. Anyhow, ever since then i  
have viewed SMART warnings with some skepticism....


>
> It kind of makes sense; isn't the main thing that SMART does is let  
> you know that the drive has reallocated more than "X" bad blocks.   
> Of course it can't tell you anything about purely mechanical or  
> electrical failures.
>
> And speaking of drive failures and testing, I did not realize until  
> recently that most any vendor's tools will diagnose any other  
> vendor's drives.  I've been using the Seagate tool since they are  
> nice enough to provide a floppy-sized bootable ISO.  Truly amazing  
> that they pack a fairly usable GUI tool in 1.44MB.  Of all the  
> tools I've played with, SeaTools seems to have the most verbose  
> reporting...
>
> Don't get me started on trying to test SCSI drives attached to a  
> RAID controller...
>
> Charles
>
>
>> -Jonathan
>>
>>
>
>




From jesse  Fri Oct 28 13:19:05 2005
From: jesse (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:19:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242203020.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<D2A68F1B-F606-49F8-9A61-4B191CD16671@taconic.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510242203020.247@white.nat.fasttrackmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <200510281319.06441.jesse@theholymountain.com>

On Monday 24 October 2005 10:09 pm, Charles Sprickman says:
...

> And speaking of drive failures and testing, I did not realize until 
> recently that most any vendor's tools will diagnose any other vendor's 
> drives.  I've been using the Seagate tool since they are nice enough to 
> provide a floppy-sized bootable ISO.  Truly amazing that they pack a 
> fairly usable GUI tool in 1.44MB.  Of all the tools I've played with, 
> SeaTools seems to have the most verbose reporting...
> 
> Don't get me started on trying to test SCSI drives attached to a RAID 
> controller...
> 
> Charles


Oh, get started. What do you use? BTW - Does WD still ship their little diagnostic floppy?

-jesse



From george  Fri Oct 28 14:25:00 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:25:00 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
Message-ID: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>

What are people doing for off site backup? I know there is a lot
of options, my only requirement is to mitigate risk, which is
kinda vague. There is about 60Gb which may double in a year.  It
would be desirable to have on line access to the older data.
Typically I do frequent rsync with hardlinks into dated folders on
HD, so local snapshots are available at the site.

This data is highly private, so that must be part of the formula.
I was thinking of a system similar to the local backups, doing a
pull from a colo machine; and at the same time making cd/dvd or
tapes at the main site which would go into a (bank) safe deposit
box or some other facility.

My tendency is to think an off site raid mirror functioning as a
copy of the local raid mirror snapshots is pretty comprehensive.
It is difficult for me to focus on the benefits of dated tape, hd,
or cd/dvd in a storage facility. What is the real benefit of that?
Very quick disaster recovery is not necessary, but 3 days would
defiantly be better than a week to recover.  How do I find the
sweet spot of medium, interval and rotation? Is off line medium
really necessary here?

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From chsnyder  Fri Oct 28 15:29:28 2005
From: chsnyder (csnyder)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:29:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <b76252690510281229s2b48ada5mf0f38c0675d982b1@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/28/05, George Georgalis <george at galis.org> wrote:
> What are people doing for off site backup? I know there is a lot
> of options, my only requirement is to mitigate risk, which is
> kinda vague. There is about 60Gb which may double in a year.  It
> would be desirable to have on line access to the older data.
> Typically I do frequent rsync with hardlinks into dated folders on
> HD, so local snapshots are available at the site.
>
> This data is highly private, so that must be part of the formula.
> I was thinking of a system similar to the local backups, doing a
> pull from a colo machine; and at the same time making cd/dvd or
> tapes at the main site which would go into a (bank) safe deposit
> box or some other facility.
>
> My tendency is to think an off site raid mirror functioning as a
> copy of the local raid mirror snapshots is pretty comprehensive.
> It is difficult for me to focus on the benefits of dated tape, hd,
> or cd/dvd in a storage facility. What is the real benefit of that?
> Very quick disaster recovery is not necessary, but 3 days would
> defiantly be better than a week to recover.  How do I find the
> sweet spot of medium, interval and rotation? Is off line medium
> really necessary here?
>
> // George
>

Disk-based backup seems preferable to tape, both for ease of recovery
(speed) and the fact that you don't need to keep a matching tape drive
with the backup tapes.

On the downside, if you want to archive your backups for 7+ years, you
have to keep buying new disk drives.


--
Chris Snyder
http://chxo.com/


From njt  Fri Oct 28 16:01:52 2005
From: njt (N.J. Thomas)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:01:52 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <20051028200152.GR26831@ayvali.org>

* George Georgalis <george at galis.org> [2005-10-28 14:25:00 -0400]:
> What are people doing for off site backup? I know there is a lot of
> options, my only requirement is to mitigate risk, which is kinda
> vague. There is about 60Gb which may double in a year.  It would be
> desirable to have on line access to the older data.

I'm evaluating backup and offsite backup options for work right now. We
have about 1.5TB that we need to backup.

We're still in the planning phase, so I haven't seriously started
looking at our options yet, but somebody recommended to me earlier in
the week that some sort of JBOD array was the way to go. The Internet
Archive spun off a company called Capricorn Technologies that makes
something called "Petaboxes". They are 1/1.6/2 TB 1u rack nodes that you
can stack together for a petabyte of storage.

Here's their site:

    http://www.capricorn-tech.com/

I contacted them a few days ago and asked for pricing and info, but so
far no one's gotten back to me yet.

> My tendency is to think an off site raid mirror functioning as a
> copy of the local raid mirror snapshots is pretty comprehensive.

Oddly enough, the Petabox nodes don't use RAID internally for some
reason that escapes me at the moment. They just have some nodes set up
as mirrors.

> Typically I do frequent rsync with hardlinks into dated folders on HD,
> so local snapshots are available at the site.

I recommend rsnapshot if you are not using it already:

    http://www.rsnapshot.org/

Thomas

-- 
N.J. Thomas
njt at ayvali.org
Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo



From joshmccormack  Fri Oct 28 22:07:30 2005
From: joshmccormack (Josh McCormack)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 22:07:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <4362D962.8090509@travelersdiary.com>

After having a client recently cut off from his shared hosting account 
for days (yes, days...ugh), and having to set it up with difficulty 
elsewhere (the database was the truly fun part) I've decided I'm going 
to setup boxbackup (http://www.fluffy.co.uk/boxbackup/) so I can have a 
copy of sites ready to go with a flip of DNS. I can save versions, too, 
if I want.

If it works out well I might offer it as a service.

Josh

George Georgalis wrote:

> What are people doing for off site backup? I know there is a lot
> of options, my only requirement is to mitigate risk, which is
> kinda vague. There is about 60Gb which may double in a year.  It
> would be desirable to have on line access to the older data.
> Typically I do frequent rsync with hardlinks into dated folders on
> HD, so local snapshots are available at the site.
> 
> This data is highly private, so that must be part of the formula.
> I was thinking of a system similar to the local backups, doing a
> pull from a colo machine; and at the same time making cd/dvd or
> tapes at the main site which would go into a (bank) safe deposit
> box or some other facility.
> 
> My tendency is to think an off site raid mirror functioning as a
> copy of the local raid mirror snapshots is pretty comprehensive.
> It is difficult for me to focus on the benefits of dated tape, hd,
> or cd/dvd in a storage facility. What is the real benefit of that?
> Very quick disaster recovery is not necessary, but 3 days would
> defiantly be better than a week to recover.  How do I find the
> sweet spot of medium, interval and rotation? Is off line medium
> really necessary here?
> 
> // George
> 
> 



From lists  Fri Oct 28 23:49:14 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:49:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] disk monitoring tool port, looks usefull
In-Reply-To: <20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
References: <8c50a3c30510240650s1dfb9095lbfc9ee568e8c1e30@mail.gmail.com>
	<20051024150904.GB29698@syntax.cyth.net>
Message-ID: <20051028234744.U43285@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005, Ray Lai wrote:

> Has SMART ever been of use to anyone?

Has been helpfull to me a couple of times.

Once, got a warning at bootup that the drive was having problems. Backed 
up my date.. bought backup drive and kept on going.. some days later the 
drive started to have serious problems.. replaced it.

Another time had some read/write errors. Was able to find exactly what 
sectors and marked them as bad.



From lists  Fri Oct 28 23:52:11 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:52:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <20051027154601.GA63784@uws1.starlofashions.com>
References: <20051026221309.GA13765@mail.scottro.net>
	<20051027113334.C59708@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<20051027154601.GA63784@uws1.starlofashions.com>
Message-ID: <20051028235123.A43285@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Scott Robbins wrote:

Used the site today, kind of in a rush, to pay 2 cards.
Didn't have much time, but was able to do what I needed.

Firefox, with no flash plugins.



From lists  Fri Oct 28 23:55:06 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:55:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
Message-ID: <20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, George Georgalis wrote:

> What are people doing for off site backup?


Encrypt data, copy to 2 different locations. One of which is 
http://streamload.com

However this works only for relatively small datasets.

> kinda vague. There is about 60Gb which may double in a year.

My advice is to segreate the data into "active" and "inactive".
Put the inactive data into a read only set of directories so the users can 
not modify/add data.

Backup active frequently and inactive a few times/year.



From krook  Sat Oct 29 00:07:18 2005
From: krook (Daniel Krook)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:07:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <20051028235123.A43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <OF5B7437AD.BD1E45A2-ON852570A9.0016303D-852570A9.0016A22D@us.ibm.com>

> Used the site today, kind of in a rush, to pay 2 cards.
> Didn't have much time, but was able to do what I needed.
> 
> Firefox, with no flash plugins.

More Amex browser woes:
http://news.com.com/Need+a+job+Dont+use+a+Mac/2100-1046_3-5917696.html?part=rss&tag=5917696&subj=news




Daniel Krook, Advisory IT Specialist 
Application Development, Production Services - Tools, ibm.com

Personal: http://info.krook.org/
BluePages: http://bluepages.redirect.webahead.ibm.com/
BlogPages: http://blogpages.redirect.webahead.ibm.com/





From george  Sat Oct 29 00:11:54 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:11:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] New Amex site
In-Reply-To: <OF5B7437AD.BD1E45A2-ON852570A9.0016303D-852570A9.0016A22D@us.ibm.com>
References: <OF5B7437AD.BD1E45A2-ON852570A9.0016303D-852570A9.0016A22D@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <4362F68A.1060509@sddi.net>

Daniel Krook wrote:
>>Used the site today, kind of in a rush, to pay 2 cards.
>>Didn't have much time, but was able to do what I needed.
>>
>>Firefox, with no flash plugins.
> 
> 
> More Amex browser woes:
> http://news.com.com/Need+a+job+Dont+use+a+Mac/2100-1046_3-5917696.html?part=rss&tag=5917696&subj=news

The funny thing is, and I don't mean to sound too old, but there used to 
be this thing called standards. . . that was such a long time ago.

Mosaic. . . . now *that* was a browser that knew standards. . .

g



From jannmichaelhiolen  Sun Oct 30 02:10:42 2005
From: jannmichaelhiolen (jann michael hiolen)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 23:10:42 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Building Business
Message-ID: <8d3e42080510300010k5b8e5bf1sa5e1bea1b16fa173@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

Good Day!

You can call me Jann, a Network Engineer, I was interested of making a HI
TECH Startup Business because I see that Open Source has a great market. We
don't like to be employees forever so we make our own business. As we go
older, companies will try to look young people for their companies.

I have the concept, the design and idea on what product to make but I can't
do this alone, so I formed a group of people to make this product. Actually
we already started the Research and Development of this product but still we
need money for the products to be made. We are also planning to do some
outsourcing to support our R&D. Right now we are looking for people who are
interested on investing and to hear out our ideas. If your interested, mail
me. Thanks!

Cheers...

--
Regards,

Jann Michael Hiolen
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From george  Sun Oct 30 08:57:01 2005
From: george (George R.)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:57:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Halloween daemon. . .
Message-ID: <4364D12D.80507@sddi.net>

this came from FBSD chat. . .

http://paco.to/gallery/v/Holidays/Halloween05/Carving/Beastie-o-lantern+2.jpg.html

g



From jbaltz  Sun Oct 30 10:09:25 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:09:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>

On 10/28/2005 11:55 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> My advice is to segreate the data into "active" and "inactive".
> Put the inactive data into a read only set of directories so the users 
> can not modify/add data.
> Backup active frequently and inactive a few times/year.

What do people do to test/verify their backup sets?
Hands up of those of you who've been bitten by the "corrupt/missing 
backup" problem.

<hand state=up />

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From dan  Sun Oct 30 10:33:38 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:33:38 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <4364A182.760.C834EE@localhost>

On 30 Oct 2005 at 10:09, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> On 10/28/2005 11:55 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:
> > My advice is to segreate the data into "active" and "inactive".
> > Put the inactive data into a read only set of directories so the users 
> > can not modify/add data.
> > Backup active frequently and inactive a few times/year.
> 
> What do people do to test/verify their backup sets?

I use the verify job built into my backup solution.  When backing up, 
you can [optionally] store an MD5 (or simliar) of the stored file.  
Then you can read the backed up data and compare that to the stored 
MD5.

You probably know I use Bacula: http://www.bacula.org/

-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From lists  Sun Oct 30 11:34:32 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:34:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> What do people do to test/verify their backup sets?


It depends what you use.
If you rsync/unison somewhere you can do mtree of the directories after 
the rsync/unison.

> Hands up of those of you who've been bitten by the "corrupt/missing backup" 
> problem.

If you truly want to be sure... test restores are probably the best 
measure.. Just because you make sure the file exist on the other location, 
doesn't mean the file is actually good. It could have been corrupted even 
before it was copied to the second location.



From nomadlogic  Sun Oct 30 11:53:25 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:53:25 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
	<20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <57d710000510300853l2a99dcc9y929a815503f60008@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/05, Francisco Reyes <lists at natserv.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
>
> > What do people do to test/verify their backup sets?
>
>
> It depends what you use.
> If you rsync/unison somewhere you can do mtree of the directories after
> the rsync/unison.
>
> > Hands up of those of you who've been bitten by the "corrupt/missing backup"
> > problem.
>
> If you truly want to be sure... test restores are probably the best
> measure.. Just because you make sure the file exist on the other location,
> doesn't mean the file is actually good. It could have been corrupted even
> before it was copied to the second location.


this raises an interesting question, for me at least.  I'va had bad
tapes in the past that I have been able to recover from, minus some
missing data - but I was still able to dd the archive off the tape for
testing and eventual recovery.  how do people do this on a drive, when
say after a year or two of shelf life the disk itself is not spinning
up or some blocks get curropted?  this is pretty much why I still
don't trust using an IDE HD based backup solution...heck I'm not even
sure I'd trust a SCSI HD solution if it was affordable...

-p

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From george  Sun Oct 30 12:48:53 2005
From: george (George Georgalis)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:48:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510300853l2a99dcc9y929a815503f60008@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
	<20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<57d710000510300853l2a99dcc9y929a815503f60008@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051030174853.GB17765@sta.duo>

On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 08:53:25AM -0800, pete wright wrote:
>
>this raises an interesting question, for me at least.  I'va had bad
>tapes in the past that I have been able to recover from, minus some
>missing data - but I was still able to dd the archive off the tape for
>testing and eventual recovery.  how do people do this on a drive, when
>say after a year or two of shelf life the disk itself is not spinning
>up or some blocks get curropted?  this is pretty much why I still
>don't trust using an IDE HD based backup solution...heck I'm not even
>sure I'd trust a SCSI HD solution if it was affordable...

I'm going to post a followup to the comments I got
(from a few lists), but for now, my feeling is
disks have better shelf life than any of the media,
some climate control would be reasonable, but I
*think* they would be the most hardy of the bunch,
when turned off. and I like online storage for the
ability to check the backup and easy restores (eg
cost to retrieve).

// George


-- 
George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator <IXOYE><
http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org



From alex  Sun Oct 30 13:53:28 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:53:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510300853l2a99dcc9y929a815503f60008@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301159320.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> this raises an interesting question, for me at least.  I'va had bad
> tapes in the past that I have been able to recover from, minus some
> missing data - but I was still able to dd the archive off the tape for
> testing and eventual recovery.  how do people do this on a drive, when
> say after a year or two of shelf life the disk itself is not spinning up
> or some blocks get curropted?  this is pretty much why I still don't
> trust using an IDE HD based backup solution...heck I'm not even sure I'd
> trust a SCSI HD solution if it was affordable...
Disk drives fail in different ways. It is uncommon for drive not to spin 
up after 1-2 years of shelf life - it is the *power on hours* that usually 
kill you. Yes, there are certain failure modes that result in drive being 
completely inaccessible - motor burning out, failing bearings, broken head 
- but those are fixable (at about 1000$ cost) by a competent guy with a 
donor drive, a soldering gun and a screwdriver. ;)

Keep in mind that usually, with hard drives, it isn't hard to implement a 
RAID system where failure of one drive doesn't impact your entire system - 
much harder than tape, as you need >1 tape drive to make it happen.

Keep in mind that media for tape (say, ~40$ for LTO 200G) is about 1/4 of 
cost of similar hard drive media.

So, its really apples and oranges. For historic (say, you have to do once 
a week backup and store it offsite, with retention of 1 year) - it doesn't 
make sense to do hard drives. For near-line and on-line, you want to use 
hard drives.

-alex




From jbaltz  Sun Oct 30 14:27:52 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:27:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301159320.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301159320.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <43651EB8.90408@3phasecomputing.com>

On 10/30/2005 1:53 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> Disk drives fail in different ways. It is uncommon for drive not to spin 
> up after 1-2 years of shelf life - it is the *power on hours* that usually 
> kill you. Yes, there are certain failure modes that result in drive being 
> completely inaccessible - motor burning out, failing bearings, broken head 
> - but those are fixable (at about 1000$ cost) by a competent guy with a 
> donor drive, a soldering gun and a screwdriver. ;)

Given the engineering of drives, they *do* tend to like running all the 
time, or being off, but the torque to spin up from zero can be damaging. 
(So can dropping it.)

> Keep in mind that usually, with hard drives, it isn't hard to implement a 
> RAID system where failure of one drive doesn't impact your entire system - 
> much harder than tape, as you need >1 tape drive to make it happen.

Multi-tape-drive jukeboxes mitigate this nicely.

> Keep in mind that media for tape (say, ~40$ for LTO 200G) is about 1/4 of 
> cost of similar hard drive media.

with transfer rates correspondingly lower :-)

> So, its really apples and oranges. For historic (say, you have to do once 
> a week backup and store it offsite, with retention of 1 year) - it doesn't 
> make sense to do hard drives. For near-line and on-line, you want to use 
> hard drives.

Hard drives are the way to go if you have a time-to-recovery on the 
order of minutes instead of hours (or hours instead of days).

With recordable DVD media being relatively cheap, is anyone archiving to 
*that*?

> -alex

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From dan  Sun Oct 30 14:37:35 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:37:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <43651EB8.90408@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301159320.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <4364DAAF.9187.1A78C87@localhost>

On 30 Oct 2005 at 14:27, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> With recordable DVD media being relatively cheap, is anyone archiving
> to *that*? 

There's a whole sub-project in the Bacula code base for that.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From alex  Sun Oct 30 14:46:57 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:46:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <43651EB8.90408@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301439070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> On 10/30/2005 1:53 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> > Disk drives fail in different ways. It is uncommon for drive not to
> > spin up after 1-2 years of shelf life - it is the *power on hours*
> > that usually kill you. Yes, there are certain failure modes that
> > result in drive being completely inaccessible - motor burning out,
> > failing bearings, broken head - but those are fixable (at about 1000$
> > cost) by a competent guy with a donor drive, a soldering gun and a
> > screwdriver. ;)
> 
> Given the engineering of drives, they *do* tend to like running all the
> time, or being off, but the torque to spin up from zero can be damaging.  
> (So can dropping it.)
rotating/seeking will eventually kill your motor/bearings.

> > Keep in mind that usually, with hard drives, it isn't hard to
> > implement a RAID system where failure of one drive doesn't impact your
> > entire system - much harder than tape, as you need >1 tape drive to
> > make it happen.
> 
> Multi-tape-drive jukeboxes mitigate this nicely.
It is however quite unusual to have raid tapes. (i.e. you would need 3 
tape drives, and 2 out of 3 tapes to do restore). I've never heard of 
anyone doing that.

> > Keep in mind that media for tape (say, ~40$ for LTO 200G) is about 1/4
> > of cost of similar hard drive media.
> 
> with transfer rates correspondingly lower :-)
Eh, I think it's close enough. LTO has 70MB/sec transfer rate. 7200 
RPM drives have ~60MB/s, 10k rpm ~80MB/s

> > So, its really apples and oranges. For historic (say, you have to do
> > once a week backup and store it offsite, with retention of 1 year) -
> > it doesn't make sense to do hard drives. For near-line and on-line,
> > you want to use hard drives.
> 
> Hard drives are the way to go if you have a time-to-recovery on the
> order of minutes instead of hours (or hours instead of days).
> 
> With recordable DVD media being relatively cheap, is anyone archiving to
> *that*?
The DVD jukeboxes began to appear fairly recently (as in 1-2 years ago). 
Unfortunately, the density is still not there - as in, 100-DVD changer is 
"only" 470GB. This might change with dualside duallayer DVDs...

-alex




From jbaltz  Sun Oct 30 14:57:59 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:57:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301439070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301439070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <436525C7.1040408@3phasecomputing.com>

On 10/30/2005 2:46 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
>>Given the engineering of drives, they *do* tend to like running all the
>>time, or being off, but the torque to spin up from zero can be damaging.  
>>(So can dropping it.)
> rotating/seeking will eventually kill your motor/bearings.

...after 200 kilohours, on average...

>>Multi-tape-drive jukeboxes mitigate this nicely.
> It is however quite unusual to have raid tapes. (i.e. you would need 3 
> tape drives, and 2 out of 3 tapes to do restore). I've never heard of 
> anyone doing that.

In fact, we *did* do tape duplexing -- writing data to two drives 
simultaneously. (This would be something like RAIT 1, I suppose.)

>>>Keep in mind that media for tape (say, ~40$ for LTO 200G) is about 1/4
>>>of cost of similar hard drive media.
>>with transfer rates correspondingly lower :-)
> Eh, I think it's close enough. LTO has 70MB/sec transfer rate. 7200 
> RPM drives have ~60MB/s, 10k rpm ~80MB/s

15k rpm SCSI?

>>With recordable DVD media being relatively cheap, is anyone archiving to
>>*that*?
> The DVD jukeboxes began to appear fairly recently (as in 1-2 years ago). 
> Unfortunately, the density is still not there - as in, 100-DVD changer is 
> "only" 470GB. This might change with dualside duallayer DVDs...

Once again, true -- but if your tablespaces can fit nicely in 4.7GB, it 
might become cost effective.

> -alex

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From dan  Sun Oct 30 15:06:28 2005
From: dan (Dan Langille)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:06:28 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301439070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <43651EB8.90408@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <4364E174.9397.1C1FA56@localhost>

On 30 Oct 2005 at 14:46, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:

> It is however quite unusual to have raid tapes. (i.e. you would need 3 
> tape drives, and 2 out of 3 tapes to do restore). I've never heard of 
> anyone doing that.

Yes, I know you're all sick of hearing about Bacula, but there has 
been talk about doing RAIT.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/





From dnsa  Sun Oct 30 15:54:30 2005
From: dnsa (dnsa at o2.pl)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:54:30 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] InfoSecurity - New York
Message-ID: <20051030205430.A7C0D21404B@rekin14.go2.pl>

Hi all,

Just in case somebody didn't know, there will be a security-conference
on December 6-8 in Jacob J. Javits Center.
For more infos:
http://www.infosecurityevent.com/App/homepage.cfm?moduleid=42&appname=100004&campaignid=10031&iUserCampaignID=20229529

Seems, it'll be great and interesting, however no person below 18
will be admitted :-(

Does anyone plan to go?




From alex  Sun Oct 30 17:00:54 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:00:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <436525C7.1040408@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301658470.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> On 10/30/2005 2:46 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> >>Given the engineering of drives, they *do* tend to like running all the
> >>time, or being off, but the torque to spin up from zero can be damaging.  
> >>(So can dropping it.)
> > rotating/seeking will eventually kill your motor/bearings.
> 
> ...after 200 kilohours, on average...
That really depends. Keep in mind, 10000 hours = 1 year. There are certain
drives that die after 10k hours, not 200k (75GXP, maxtor 6E series, etc). 
Unfortunately, only painful experience can teach you that certain drives 
are junk...

> In fact, we *did* do tape duplexing -- writing data to two drives
> simultaneously. (This would be something like RAIT 1, I suppose.)
> 
> >>>Keep in mind that media for tape (say, ~40$ for LTO 200G) is about
> >>>1/4 of cost of similar hard drive media.
> >>with transfer rates correspondingly lower :-)
> > Eh, I think it's close enough. LTO has 70MB/sec transfer rate. 7200
> > RPM drives have ~60MB/s, 10k rpm ~80MB/s
> 
> 15k rpm SCSI?
In that case, cost of media for tape is 1/10th of cost of 15k rpm scsi ;)

-alex




From tux  Sun Oct 30 17:34:54 2005
From: tux (Kevin Reiter)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:34:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] InfoSecurity - New York
In-Reply-To: <20051030205430.A7C0D21404B@rekin14.go2.pl>
References: <20051030205430.A7C0D21404B@rekin14.go2.pl>
Message-ID: <43654A8E.9050807@penguinnetwerx.net>

dnsa at o2.pl wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just in case somebody didn't know, there will be a security-conference
> on December 6-8 in Jacob J. Javits Center.
> For more infos:
> http://www.infosecurityevent.com/App/homepage.cfm?moduleid=42&appname=100004&campaignid=10031&iUserCampaignID=20229529
> 
> Seems, it'll be great and interesting, however no person below 18
> will be admitted :-(
> 
> Does anyone plan to go?

I'll be going again this year.

-- 
It said "use Linux 2.4 kernel or better" so I installed FreeBSD.  Now everything 
runs better.  Why didn't they just tell me to do that to begin with?




From jbaltz  Sun Oct 30 20:28:21 2005
From: jbaltz (Jerry B. Altzman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:28:21 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301658470.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301658470.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <43657335.7000102@3phasecomputing.com>

On 10/30/2005 5:00 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:
> That really depends. Keep in mind, 10000 hours = 1 year. There are certain
> drives that die after 10k hours, not 200k (75GXP, maxtor 6E series, etc). 
> Unfortunately, only painful experience can teach you that certain drives 
> are junk...

Yes, that's why they advertise *mean* time between failures...

>>15k rpm SCSI?
> In that case, cost of media for tape is 1/10th of cost of 15k rpm scsi ;)

Everything has its cost, yes...

> -alex

//jbaltz
-- 
jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405



From nomadlogic  Sun Oct 30 21:58:13 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 18:58:13 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301439070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <43651EB8.90408@3phasecomputing.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0510301439070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510301858j406c6022t909a65f72460493a@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:

> > Multi-tape-drive jukeboxes mitigate this nicely.
> It is however quite unusual to have raid tapes. (i.e. you would need 3
> tape drives, and 2 out of 3 tapes to do restore). I've never heard of
> anyone doing that.

it's actually not that uncommon when dealing with large data sets....

>
> > > Keep in mind that media for tape (say, ~40$ for LTO 200G) is about 1/4
> > > of cost of similar hard drive media.
> >
> > with transfer rates correspondingly lower :-)
> Eh, I think it's close enough. LTO has 70MB/sec transfer rate. 7200
> RPM drives have ~60MB/s, 10k rpm ~80MB/s
>

hmmm...LTO2 specs:
http://tinyurl.com/d6h85

Native Burst Transfer Rate	160 MB/sec
Compressed Burst Transfer Rate	320 MB/sec

which I can confirm is pretty much accurate...although our LTO1/2
robots are connected via a fiber SAN so YMMV.


-p


--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group



From lists  Sun Oct 30 23:10:21 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:10:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510300853l2a99dcc9y929a815503f60008@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
	<20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<57d710000510300853l2a99dcc9y929a815503f60008@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051030230933.G6651@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> testing and eventual recovery.  how do people do this on a drive, when
> say after a year or two of shelf life the disk itself is not spinning
> up or some blocks get curropted?

Not really following your strategy..
When using HDs as backups.. the backup drives will be connected 
somewhere.. and will be written to pretty often.

One good combination may be HD backup for recent data, tape for older 
data.



From spork  Sun Oct 30 23:23:49 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:23:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510302323190.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Jerry B. Altzman wrote:

> Hands up of those of you who've been bitten by the "corrupt/missing backup" 
> problem.

Ever used DDS tapes for backup? :)

C

> <hand state=up />
>
> //jbaltz
> -- 
> jerry b. altzman  jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com  +1 718 763 7405
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From spork  Sun Oct 30 23:25:50 2005
From: spork (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:25:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
	<20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510302324540.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> If you truly want to be sure... test restores are probably the best measure..

Take a job at an ISP.  People delete things they shouldn't all the time 
and you have to grab stuff from a big-ass dump file.  It's great practice!

C

> Just because you make sure the file exist on the other location, doesn't mean 
> the file is actually good. It could have been corrupted even before it was 
> copied to the second location.
> _______________________________________________
> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists
> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month
>



From alex  Mon Oct 31 00:13:49 2005
From: alex (alex at pilosoft.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:13:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <57d710000510301858j406c6022t909a65f72460493a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510310013070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:

> > Eh, I think it's close enough. LTO has 70MB/sec transfer rate. 7200
> > RPM drives have ~60MB/s, 10k rpm ~80MB/s
> >
> 
> hmmm...LTO2 specs: http://tinyurl.com/d6h85
> 
> Native Burst Transfer Rate 160 MB/sec Compressed Burst Transfer Rate 320
> MB/sec
> 
> which I can confirm is pretty much accurate...although our LTO1/2 robots
> are connected via a fiber SAN so YMMV.
Burst != sustained.

-alex




From lists  Mon Oct 31 01:02:05 2005
From: lists (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:02:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSX.4.61.0510302324540.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>
References: <20051028182500.GC21041@sta.duo>
	<20051028235302.O43285@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<4364E225.4080005@3phasecomputing.com>
	<20051030113208.V1183@zoraida.natserv.net>
	<Pine.OSX.4.61.0510302324540.5779@office-dhcp-1.bway.net>
Message-ID: <20051031005539.L29257@zoraida.natserv.net>

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> Take a job at an ISP.


I did.. at an email provider. :-)

> People delete things they shouldn't all the time


It's not too bad with us. It think I get about 2 restore requests/month.

> you have to grab stuff from a big-ass dump file.

We rsync to a second server.



From jpb  Mon Oct 31 07:51:42 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:51:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] InfoSecurity - New York
In-Reply-To: <20051030205430.A7C0D21404B@rekin14.go2.pl>
References: <20051030205430.A7C0D21404B@rekin14.go2.pl>
Message-ID: <20051031125142.GB15548@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* dnsa at o2.pl <dnsa at o2.pl> [2005-10-30 15:54]:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just in case somebody didn't know, there will be a security-conference
> on December 6-8 in Jacob J. Javits Center.
> For more infos:
> http://www.infosecurityevent.com/App/homepage.cfm?moduleid=42&appname=100004&campaignid=10031&iUserCampaignID=20229529
> 
> Seems, it'll be great and interesting, however no person below 18
> will be admitted :-(
> 
> Does anyone plan to go?


I'll probably go for one day.

Jim B.




From nomadlogic  Mon Oct 31 10:56:55 2005
From: nomadlogic (pete wright)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:56:55 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] off site backup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0510310013070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <57d710000510301858j406c6022t909a65f72460493a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0510310013070.5376-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000510310756k5b8c44e7hf71ba414414de249@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/30/05, alex at pilosoft.com <alex at pilosoft.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, pete wright wrote:
>
> > > Eh, I think it's close enough. LTO has 70MB/sec transfer rate. 7200
> > > RPM drives have ~60MB/s, 10k rpm ~80MB/s
> > >
> >
> > hmmm...LTO2 specs: http://tinyurl.com/d6h85
> >
> > Native Burst Transfer Rate 160 MB/sec Compressed Burst Transfer Rate 320
> > MB/sec
> >
> > which I can confirm is pretty much accurate...although our LTO1/2 robots
> > are connected via a fiber SAN so YMMV.
> Burst != sustained.



really...shocking. guess next time i should read the specs closer.

--
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org <http://www.nycbug.org>
NYC's *BSD User Group
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From dlavigne6  Mon Oct 31 11:04:51 2005
From: dlavigne6 (Dru)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:04:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] raqdevil
Message-ID: <20051031110317.U628@dru.domain.org>


Anyone played with http://www.raqdevil.com/install.html yet?

If so, any comments on why one would use this rather than webmin?

Dru



From jpb  Mon Oct 31 11:36:43 2005
From: jpb (Jim Brown)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:36:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] raqdevil
In-Reply-To: <20051031110317.U628@dru.domain.org>
References: <20051031110317.U628@dru.domain.org>
Message-ID: <20051031163643.GC16969@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* Dru <dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca> [2005-10-31 11:02]:
> 
> Anyone played with http://www.raqdevil.com/install.html yet?
> 
> If so, any comments on why one would use this rather than webmin?
> 
> Dru



Haven't used raqdevil yet, but... 

There has been a report that NetBSD 2.0.2 runs on the Intel RAQs

See this email:

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=8828137&forum_id=36910

Jim B.

I plan on checking this out soon.





From steve.rieger  Mon Oct 31 13:06:59 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:06:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cacert and ssl crt's
Message-ID: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>

there are quite a few non verisign/thawte ssl crt's out there, which  
one do you folks recommend and or use. this is for a home project so  
i am looking for one thats free, and yes i know that the browser will  
pop up with the warnings but i dont mind that.





Steve Rieger
Cell      646-335-8915
Office   212 804 1131
Fax       212 804 1200
AIM      chozrim
Yahoo riegersteve

if ((light eq dark) && (dark eq  
light)                                                                   
   If light were dark and dark were light
    && ($blaze_of_night{moon} ==  
black_hole)                                                The moon a  
black hole in the blaze of night
    && ($ravens_wing{bright} == $tin{bright})) 
{                                                  A raven's wing as  
bright as tin
  my $love = $you = $sin{darkness} +  
1;                                                            A  
raven's wing as bright as tin
};





From lists  Mon Oct 31 13:16:20 2005
From: lists (michael)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:16:20 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cacert and ssl crt's
In-Reply-To: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>
References: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20051031131620.7808abb1@genoverly.com>

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:06:59 -0500
Steve Rieger <steve.rieger at tbwachiat.com> wrote:

> there are quite a few non verisign/thawte ssl crt's out there, which  
> one do you folks recommend and or use. this is for a home project so  
> i am looking for one thats free, and yes i know that the browser will 
> pop up with the warnings but i dont mind that.

> Steve Rieger

<snip long signature>


create your own. 
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/ssl/



Michael



From bob  Mon Oct 31 13:26:07 2005
From: bob (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:26:07 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cacert and ssl crt's
In-Reply-To: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>
References: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <D4ADD7C5-82B9-44A4-90BD-DD3B0AA420F5@redivi.com>


On Oct 31, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:

> there are quite a few non verisign/thawte ssl crt's out there,  
> which one do you folks recommend and or use. this is for a home  
> project so i am looking for one thats free, and yes i know that the  
> browser will pop up with the warnings but i dont mind that.

I personally use cacert for that sort of thing.  It's actually easier  
than remembering how to do a self-signed cert.

-bob




From steve.rieger  Mon Oct 31 13:40:24 2005
From: steve.rieger (Steve Rieger)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:40:24 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cacert and ssl crt's
In-Reply-To: <D4ADD7C5-82B9-44A4-90BD-DD3B0AA420F5@redivi.com>
References: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>
	<D4ADD7C5-82B9-44A4-90BD-DD3B0AA420F5@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <41AA854B-58A7-42CE-B384-7A6FF0184A9E@tbwachiat.com>


On Oct 31, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Oct 31, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:
>
>
>> there are quite a few non verisign/thawte ssl crt's out there,  
>> which one do you folks recommend and or use. this is for a home  
>> project so i am looking for one thats free, and yes i know that  
>> the browser will pop up with the warnings but i dont mind that.
>>
>
> I personally use cacert for that sort of thing.  It's actually  
> easier than remembering how to do a self-signed cert.
>
> -bob

i do remember/know how to do this, but would rather have a crt for  
ldap/apache/postfix from a third party, but am not willing to pay. 



From okan  Mon Oct 31 13:56:03 2005
From: okan (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:56:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] cacert and ssl crt's
In-Reply-To: <41AA854B-58A7-42CE-B384-7A6FF0184A9E@tbwachiat.com>
References: <7288ABE2-56E6-46C4-A58D-27C6618AB2B4@tbwachiat.com>
	<D4ADD7C5-82B9-44A4-90BD-DD3B0AA420F5@redivi.com>
	<41AA854B-58A7-42CE-B384-7A6FF0184A9E@tbwachiat.com>
Message-ID: <20051031185603.GC74367@yinaska.pair.com>

On Mon 2005.10.31 at 13:40 -0500, Steve Rieger wrote:
> 
> On Oct 31, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> 
> >
> >On Oct 31, 2005, at 10:06 AM, Steve Rieger wrote:
> >
> >
> >>there are quite a few non verisign/thawte ssl crt's out there,  
> >>which one do you folks recommend and or use. this is for a home  
> >>project so i am looking for one thats free, and yes i know that  
> >>the browser will pop up with the warnings but i dont mind that.
> >>
> >
> >I personally use cacert for that sort of thing.  It's actually  
> >easier than remembering how to do a self-signed cert.
> >
> >-bob
> 
> i do remember/know how to do this, but would rather have a crt for  
> ldap/apache/postfix from a third party, but am not willing to pay. 

you want it all don't you? if you ever find a root cert already in the
major applications and *free signing*, let us *all* know...