From pete at nomadlogic.org Sat Apr 1 00:28:48 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:28:48 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Funding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060401052845.GA46767@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 04:46:53PM -0500, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > On Mar 31, 2006, at 3:12 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I tried submitting this to BSDNews, but the "add story" page is > > broken, > > and I couldn't find any contact info on the site. If any BSDNews > > folks > > are lurking, here's the info... > > > > Colin's request: http://people.freebsd.org/~cperciva/funding.html > > On the link, there's this: > > """ > > 10. Are donations tax-deductible? > > I'm not a tax lawyer, but my basic understanding is as follows: > I'm not a charity, so you can't claim these donations as a charitable > donation. > Legally speaking, this is contract work, so companies can claim any > donations they make as business expenses. I will issue invoices upon > request. > """ > > Is there not a facility within FreeBSD where people can donate to a > specific sponsorship/whatever through a proxy non-profit so that > donations are charitable? > www.freebsdfoundation.org although, i am not sure if they are able to dole out donations to specific hackers. as of now i know they are working on improving java support. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Sat Apr 1 00:54:41 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:54:41 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Funding In-Reply-To: <20060401052845.GA46767@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060401052845.GA46767@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2006, at 12:28 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 04:46:53PM -0500, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: >> Is there not a facility within FreeBSD where people can donate to a >> specific sponsorship/whatever through a proxy non-profit so that >> donations are charitable? >> > > www.freebsdfoundation.org > > although, i am not sure if they are able to dole out donations to > specific hackers. as of now i know they are working on improving java > support. someone should set up some sort of umbrella/shell 501c3 that does this: lets an individual hacker register and put up a solicitation for funding acts as a middleman and a- processes contributions so people get tax deductions b- 'contracts' the hacker to write the code and release it under an open source license it would basically be like a bounty system, but run everything through a shell 501c3 so contributions are tax deductable. i bet with a kickass accountant, the 'contract' for the hacker to code whatever could be specced out so the difference in pay between working on it as an open source project ( ~800 wk ) and the market value of the work if it were for a company ( ~2-3k a week judging by NYT classifieds ) could be made as a tax deduction too. i'm gonna ask some lawyer friends how hard that would be to set up this weekend. From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 1 08:09:40 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 8:09:40 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Google Romance Message-ID: <20060401130940.OFYM16051.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> For those of you who have forgotten the date, check out Google Romance while you still can: http://www.google.com/romance/ Dru From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 1 08:09:51 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 8:09:51 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Google Romance Message-ID: <20060401130952.OGDA16051.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> For those of you who have forgotten the date, check out Google Romance while you still can: http://www.google.com/romance/ Dru From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 1 08:56:48 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 8:56:48 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Re: Re: FreeBSD Funding] Message-ID: <20060401135648.BNKL29052.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> Top post alert again! Darn webmail didn't reply to list as well... Dru > > From: > Date: 2006/04/01 Sat AM 08:54:28 EST > To: Jonathan Vanasco > CC: > Subject: Re: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Funding > > > Top post alert! > > Deb, is this something that falls under the mandate of the FreeBSD Foundation? > > Dru > > > > > > From: Jonathan Vanasco > > Date: 2006/04/01 Sat AM 12:54:41 EST > > To: NYCBUG Talk > > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Funding > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2006, at 12:28 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 04:46:53PM -0500, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > >> Is there not a facility within FreeBSD where people can donate to a > > >> specific sponsorship/whatever through a proxy non-profit so that > > >> donations are charitable? > > >> > > > > > > www.freebsdfoundation.org > > > > > > although, i am not sure if they are able to dole out donations to > > > specific hackers. as of now i know they are working on improving java > > > support. > > > > someone should set up some sort of umbrella/shell 501c3 that does this: > > > > lets an individual hacker register and put up a solicitation for > > funding > > acts as a middleman and > > a- processes contributions so people get tax deductions > > b- 'contracts' the hacker to write the code and release it under an > > open source license > > > > it would basically be like a bounty system, but run everything > > through a shell 501c3 so contributions are tax deductable. > > > > i bet with a kickass accountant, the 'contract' for the hacker to > > code whatever could be specced out so the difference in pay between > > working on it as an open source project ( ~800 wk ) and the market > > value of the work if it were for a company ( ~2-3k a week judging by > > NYT classifieds ) could be made as a tax deduction too. > > > > i'm gonna ask some lawyer friends how hard that would be to set up > > this weekend. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > > > From ike at lesmuug.org Mon Apr 3 22:26:54 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:26:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Seeking HAM / Shortwave Guru Message-ID: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> Hey All, I'm looking to talk to some HAM / Shortwave folks in NYC, to pick their brains in exchange for beer. HAM/Shortwave folks versed in issues with running packets via Shortwave are especially the folks I'd like to speak to, but it's not absolutely necessary. If you are one of these people, feel free to contact me off list- or- if you are coming to any NYC*BUG meetings in the future, find me and I'll definately buy you a drink for letting me pick your brain... (If you don't know me, I look like: http://dotike.net/ike.jpg ). Rocket, .ike From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 3 22:33:22 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:33:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] [Fwd: Re: FreeBSD Funding] Message-ID: <20060404023322.ZQSA1823.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca> Forward of Deb's response to this thread. Dru > > From: Deb Goodkin > Date: 2006/04/03 Mon AM 11:31:24 EST > To: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca > CC: Jonathan Vanasco > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Funding > > > > dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca wrote: > > Top post alert! > > > > Deb, is this something that falls under the mandate of the FreeBSD Foundation? > > > > Hi Dru, > I wouldn't say it's a mandate of the Foundation. But, the idea expressed > below would fall under our activities as listed to the IRS for our > 501(c)(3) filing. > We stated in our application that we would engage in contracts for > development of software for FreeBSD. The Java binaries are a good > example of this. We had a significant amount of customer interest in > this project. This is what drove us to find someone to do this work for > us. Some large companies have offered to fund this project, but we > haven't seen any checks yet. > > We have a grant system in place to fund various FreeBSD projects. There > is an application on our website and an individual can use that to apply > for a grant. We do not have a formal process of having businesses or > individuals donating to specific projects. But, if we have enough > interest and people interested in donating for that project, we could > earmark specifically for that project. > > We are planning on creating a more formal process for funding projects. > It would include starting with a Request for Proposal. People could then > submit their proposal, that would then be evaluated by a technical > review board. > > As far as what the person stated below regarding a hacker soliciting for > funds, that person can apply for a grant to fund his/her project. That > person would include in the justification why this is needed and how the > FreeBSD Community would benefit. Letting the community know a developer > wants to do a project could help find out the interest. It also doesn't > hurt, once an application is approved to let the community know you are > doing this project and asking people to support you by donating to the > Foundation. Most US donations are tax deductible. > > Setting up another non-profit organization to support the FreeBSD > Project would be very confusing to the community. There should be a way > to do what is being suggested below through the Foundation. We would > love to fund more projects! > > Thank You, > > Deb Goodkin > Director of Operations > The FreeBSD Foundation > > > > Dru > > > > > > > >> From: Jonathan Vanasco > >> Date: 2006/04/01 Sat AM 12:54:41 EST > >> To: NYCBUG Talk > >> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Funding > >> > >> > >> On Apr 1, 2006, at 12:28 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 04:46:53PM -0500, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > >>> > >>>> Is there not a facility within FreeBSD where people can donate to a > >>>> specific sponsorship/whatever through a proxy non-profit so that > >>>> donations are charitable? > >>>> > >>>> > >>> www.freebsdfoundation.org > >>> > >>> although, i am not sure if they are able to dole out donations to > >>> specific hackers. as of now i know they are working on improving java > >>> support. > >>> > >> someone should set up some sort of umbrella/shell 501c3 that does this: > >> > >> lets an individual hacker register and put up a solicitation for > >> funding > >> acts as a middleman and > >> a- processes contributions so people get tax deductions > >> b- 'contracts' the hacker to write the code and release it under an > >> open source license > >> > >> it would basically be like a bounty system, but run everything > >> through a shell 501c3 so contributions are tax deductable. > >> > >> i bet with a kickass accountant, the 'contract' for the hacker to > >> code whatever could be specced out so the difference in pay between > >> working on it as an open source project ( ~800 wk ) and the market > >> value of the work if it were for a company ( ~2-3k a week judging by > >> NYT classifieds ) could be made as a tax deduction too. > >> > >> i'm gonna ask some lawyer friends how hard that would be to set up > >> this weekend. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > >> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > >> %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > >> %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > >> > >> > > > > > > > > From spork at bway.net Mon Apr 3 22:57:24 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Seeking HAM / Shortwave Guru In-Reply-To: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> References: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Isaac Levy wrote: > HAM/Shortwave folks versed in issues with running packets via > Shortwave are especially the folks I'd like to speak to, but it's not > absolutely necessary. You may not find what you're looking for, but I'll bet you get a ton of "what are you up to?" replies... like this. :) Charles > Rocket, > .ike From jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net Tue Apr 4 21:13:33 2006 From: jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net (Jim Brown) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 21:13:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Seeking HAM / Shortwave Guru In-Reply-To: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> References: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20060405011333.GA55080@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> * Isaac Levy [2006-04-03 22:33]: > Hey All, > > I'm looking to talk to some HAM / Shortwave folks in NYC, to pick > their brains in exchange for beer. > > HAM/Shortwave folks versed in issues with running packets via > Shortwave are especially the folks I'd like to speak to, but it's not > absolutely necessary. > > If you are one of these people, feel free to contact me off list- or- > if you are coming to any NYC*BUG meetings in the future, find me and > I'll definately buy you a drink for letting me pick your brain... > (If you don't know me, I look like: http://dotike.net/ike.jpg ). > > Rocket, > .ike > Phil Karn, KA9Q (hope I got that right) was an early guy in Packet IP stuff. Google for his name or handle. Should turn up a lot of stuff. Jim B. From marco at metm.org Wed Apr 5 12:22:34 2006 From: marco at metm.org (Marco Scoffier) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:22:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly Message-ID: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> I need a jail fast. FreeBSD 6.0. Don't want to "make buildworld". Can't I make one from the distribution sets ?? In a pre-compiled binary sort of mood. Not finding the easy way... Thanks, -- Marco From scottro at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 5 14:28:59 2006 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:28:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly In-Reply-To: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> References: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> Message-ID: <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 12:22:34PM -0400, Marco Scoffier wrote: > I need a jail fast. FreeBSD 6.0. Don't want to "make buildworld". > Can't I make one from the distribution sets ?? > > In a pre-compiled binary sort of mood. > Not finding the easy way... I'm not sure what happens the first time you do ez-jail. You may still have to do ez-jailadmin (or something similar) update. It ~might~ be a bit quicker. I haven't set up a jail from scratch with ez-jail in awhile, so my memory is hazy about how much time you can save. http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/ezjail/ -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Xander:The mayor is gonna kill us all during graduation. Cordelia: Oh. Are you gonna go to fifth period? Xander: I'm thinking I might skip it. Cordelia: Yeah. Me too. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at metm.org Wed Apr 5 15:48:51 2006 From: marco at metm.org (Marco Scoffier) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:48:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly In-Reply-To: <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> References: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> Message-ID: <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:28:59PM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: >On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 12:22:34PM -0400, Marco Scoffier wrote: >> I need a jail fast. FreeBSD 6.0. Don't want to "make buildworld". >> Can't I make one from the distribution sets ?? >> >> In a pre-compiled binary sort of mood. >> Not finding the easy way... > >I'm not sure what happens the first time you do ez-jail. You may still >have to do ez-jailadmin (or something similar) update. It ~might~ be a >bit quicker. > >I haven't set up a jail from scratch with ez-jail in awhile, so my >memory is hazy about how much time you can save. > > >http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/ezjail/ > > Scott, I saw ezjail, but it seemed to be more geared towards setting up multiple jails sharing the same code base. Anyway I'm "make buildworld"-ing. It just seemed surprising that I couldn't simply untar the distribution sets in /jails ... Probably can I'll test it someday. Thanks, -- Marco From spork at bway.net Wed Apr 5 15:48:49 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly In-Reply-To: <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> References: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> Message-ID: <20060405154623.R711@sporker.bway.net> On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Marco Scoffier wrote: > I saw ezjail, but it seemed to be more geared towards setting up > multiple jails sharing the same code base. Anyway I'm "make > buildworld"-ing. It just seemed surprising that I couldn't simply untar the > distribution sets in /jails ... Probably can I'll test it someday. Just a quick FYI, if you've already done the buildworld step (likely to keep the box up to date with security issues and the like), you can skip the buildworld. In other words instead of: cd /usr/src make buildworld DESTDIR=/jails/jail1 You can: make installworld DESTDIR=/jails/jail1 I would imagine that with some fiddling you could unpack binaries. I haven't even thought of that since all the boxes I've been jailing (and I've been doing it ALL OVER lately, the bug has bit me) have been reasonably fast... Charles > Thanks, > > -- > Marco > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From scottro at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 5 16:25:17 2006 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:25:17 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly In-Reply-To: <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> References: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> Message-ID: <20060405202516.GA8263@uws1.starlofashions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 03:48:51PM -0400, Marco Scoffier wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:28:59PM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: > >On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 12:22:34PM -0400, Marco Scoffier wrote: > >> I need a jail fast. FreeBSD 6.0. Don't want to "make buildworld". > >> Can't I make one from the distribution sets ?? > >> > >I'm not sure what happens the first time you do ez-jail. You may still > >have to do ez-jailadmin (or something similar) update. It ~might~ be a > >bit quicker. > > > > > Scott, > > I saw ezjail, but it seemed to be more geared towards setting up > multiple jails sharing the same code base. Anyway I'm "make > buildworld"-ing. It just seemed surprising that I couldn't simply untar the > distribution sets in /jails ... Probably can I'll test it someday. It actually makes everything easier. At present, I'm just using it for a single jail. Also as either the web page or man page says, it makes updating jails easy enough so that you'll actually do it. (I confess I was often lax about updating the jail when updating the system). Again, I don't know how much of a time saver it would be, and my reply here has sort of wandered off-topic. :) - -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Spike: We like to talk big... vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' That's just tough-guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I _like_ this world. You've got...dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real... passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFENCes+lTVdes0Z9YRAkPpAJsEYKLzu8igoxTaN1JoGptb+czfMACgkXbF kD5mDNJoJuunkQTk5P95YtM= =4u0A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lgj at usenix.org Wed Apr 5 16:38:14 2006 From: lgj at usenix.org (Lionel Garth Jones) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:38:14 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] USENIX Workshop on Hot Topics in Security Call For Papers Message-ID: <9549D0A3-EB4D-4386-A017-BEB44057851C@usenix.org> ------------------------------- First Workshop on Hot Topics in Security (HotSec '06) July 31, 2006 Vancouver, B.C., Canada Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association Submissions Deadline: April 17, 2006 http://www.usenix.org/hotsec06/cfpa ------------------------------- The First Workshop on Hot Topics in Security (HotSec '06) will take place Monday, July 31, 2006, in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, and we would like to encourage your submissions. HotSec is intended as a forum for lively discussion of aggressively innovative and potentially disruptive ideas in all aspects of systems security. Surprising results and thought-provoking ideas will be strongly favored; complete papers with polished results in well-explored research areas are discouraged. Papers will be selected for their potential to stimulate discussion in the workshop. Position papers are expected to fit into one of the following categories: -- Fundamentally new techniques for and approaches to dealing with current security problems -- New major problems arising from new technologies that are now being developed or deployed -- Truly surprising results that cause rethinking of previous approaches While our goal is to solicit ideas that are not completely worked out, we expect submissions to be supported by some evidence of feasibility or preliminary quantitative results. Possible topics of interest include but are not limited to: * Secure operation, management, and event response of/for ultra-large-scale systems * Designing secure large-scale systems and networks * Self-organizing and self-protecting systems * Security assurance for non-expert users * Balancing security and privacy/anonymity * Interactions between security technology and public policy Position paper submissions due are due April 17, 2006. Submissions guidelines can be found at http://www.usenix.org/hotsec06/ cfpa We look forward to receiving your submissions. On behalf of the HotSec '06 Program Committee, Matt Blaze, University of Pennsylvania P.S. HotSec '06 will be co-located with the 15th USENIX Security Symposium (Security '06), which will take place July 31-August 4, 2006. ------------------------------- First Workshop on Hot Topics in Security (HotSec '06) July 31, 2006 Vancouver, B.C., Canada Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association Submissions Deadline: April 17, 2006 http://www.usenix.org/hotsec06/cfpa ------------------------------- From pete at nomadlogic.org Wed Apr 5 16:58:34 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly In-Reply-To: <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> References: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> Message-ID: <47022.160.33.20.11.1144270714.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:28:59PM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote: >>On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 12:22:34PM -0400, Marco Scoffier wrote: >>> I need a jail fast. FreeBSD 6.0. Don't want to "make buildworld". >>> Can't I make one from the distribution sets ?? >>> >>> In a pre-compiled binary sort of mood. >>> Not finding the easy way... >> >>I'm not sure what happens the first time you do ez-jail. You may still >>have to do ez-jailadmin (or something similar) update. It ~might~ be a >>bit quicker. >> >>I haven't set up a jail from scratch with ez-jail in awhile, so my >>memory is hazy about how much time you can save. >> >> >>http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/ezjail/ >> >> > Scott, > > I saw ezjail, but it seemed to be more geared towards setting up > multiple jails sharing the same code base. Anyway I'm "make > buildworld"-ing. It just seemed surprising that I couldn't simply untar > the > distribution sets in /jails ... Probably can I'll test it someday. > that should work, as I've tar'd jails between hosts in the past with no problems. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com Wed Apr 5 17:33:54 2006 From: jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com (Jerry B. Altzman) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 17:33:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] remote power for cages Message-ID: <443437C2.8010503@3phasecomputing.com> Comrades: (Probably the wrong list, but expertise is here.) Any recommendations for remote-control power strips (e.g. blackbox pow-r-boot type of gizmo) for cages? I'm looking for experiences, good or bad. I'll be happy to summarize responses to the list. //jbaltz -- jerry b. altzman jbaltz at 3phasecomputing.com +1 718 763 7405 From alex at pilosoft.com Wed Apr 5 17:43:52 2006 From: alex at pilosoft.com (alex at pilosoft.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] remote power for cages In-Reply-To: <443437C2.8010503@3phasecomputing.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Jerry B. Altzman wrote: > (Probably the wrong list, but expertise is here.) > > Any recommendations for remote-control power strips (e.g. blackbox > pow-r-boot type of gizmo) for cages? > > I'm looking for experiences, good or bad. I'll be happy to summarize > responses to the list. I use baytech. They are ok, but interfacing is kind of sucky for any kind of automation. (You end up writing expect scripts). Others love APC. APC are generally nicer (shows amperage on builtin LCD) but more pricey. -alex From ike at lesmuug.org Wed Apr 5 22:09:49 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 22:09:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Make a jail quickly In-Reply-To: <47022.160.33.20.11.1144270714.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060405162234.GE20792@ns.metm.org> <20060405182859.GA7296@uws1.starlofashions.com> <20060405194851.GG20792@ns.metm.org> <47022.160.33.20.11.1144270714.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <53382DB3-799A-4FF1-A878-D8B63B4197D9@lesmuug.org> Hey Marco, (Pete), On Apr 5, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Peter Wright wrote: > that should work, as I've tar'd jails between hosts in the past > with no > problems. > -p Pete's sig is appropriate- toss tar a -p and you'll save yourself a few small headaches. Rocket- .ike From nikolai at fetissov.org Thu Apr 6 01:17:59 2006 From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai at fetissov.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 01:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Meeting audio Message-ID: <2254.69.119.149.0.1144300679.squirrel@www.geekisp.com> Folks, mp3 of April meeting is at: http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbug/ Michael, please update the link on nycbug.org front page, thanks. -- Nikolai From george at sddi.net Fri Apr 7 16:03:45 2006 From: george at sddi.net (George R.) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:03:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] this past Wed meeting & administrativa. . Message-ID: <4436C5A1.5010201@sddi.net> * For those who were at the meeting this past Thursday. . . I'd be curious to hear feedback. Basically, the concept of that meeting, and possibly some future ones is this: have "open summit" meetings that invite anyone to open up a discussion around a particular problem or solution that they want to talk about. So the other night, Bjorn spoke about his issues of moving from BSD to Linux at his new employer, Alfred Perlstein spoke about the OkayCupid.com web infrastructure and some other things were raised. Ultimately, the goal is to mix having a regular speaker for meetings, like we have with Mickey and co next meeting, with more open formats. In essence, this means reflecting the tone and discussions of our talk list in a meeting format. Again, if you were at the meeting and have feedback, let me know. And if you weren't, I'd be happy to listen to that too. * Also, the next meeting will NOT be at the Apple Store, as it will be unavailable. * Finally, as we did last year, we will be raising some funds at the next meeting for the OBSD Hackathon. Last year we collected some $600, which was impressive. This time, we ask that everyone attending considers bringing their donation to the meeting. g From mikel.king at ocsny.com Fri Apr 7 17:19:09 2006 From: mikel.king at ocsny.com (Mikel King) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:19:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] netbsd on winterms Message-ID: I have a couple of winterm devices on is a Compaq t1510 (rebranded wyse box) that came with linux of some sort bundled on it. The other is a Wyse box (model wt3360se) and I wondering if anyone on the list has gotten net to boot one of these things up. Figured I'd ask while I'm hitting google & yahoo... Thanks in advance. cheers, m! From spork at bway.net Fri Apr 7 20:01:05 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh password auth note Message-ID: Hi all, Just thought I'd share something that I just discovered... I've made it standard practice when I bring up a unix host that has ssh open to the world to edit sshd_config and set it to only accept protocol 2 and to not allow passwords. Today I was working on a FreeBSD jail (4.11) and I had not yet done this, nor had I transferred my keys over. I made the config changes and ssh'd to the box, and was let in with my password. After double-checking everything and restarting sshd, I got the same result. This auth.log message stuck out: Apr 7 19:36:27 devel4 sshd[53082]: Accepted keyboard-interactive/pam for spork from 68.45.2.223 port 52130 ssh2 PAM. Hmmm. So it appears that the option to disallow passwords is basically circumvented by PAM. To stop that, this line must also be set to "no": # Change to no to disable PAM authentication ChallengeResponseAuthentication no Like I said, maybe I'm the only one that didn't know this... Charles From yusuke at cs.nyu.edu Fri Apr 7 20:21:46 2006 From: yusuke at cs.nyu.edu (Yusuke Shinyama) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:21:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh password auth note In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060408002146.35556.82361.yusuke@grape.cs.nyu.edu> Charles Sprickman wrote: > > I've made it standard practice when I bring up a unix host that has ssh > open to the world to edit sshd_config and set it to only accept protocol 2 > and to not allow passwords. (snip) > > PAM. Hmmm. So it appears that the option to disallow passwords is > basically circumvented by PAM. Yes. This is one of common pitfalls in sshd settings. But I'm wondering why PAM is allowed as default in the first place. I usually set "UsePAM no" or don't even compile with. PAM might be nice solutions in some cases, but normally it seems unnecessarily complicated to me. Other sshd_config tidbits I could share is... PermitRootLogin no AllowGroups mygroup (filter out users like bin, test or nobody) Port xxx (any number other than 22 - so that you can avoid passwd attacks) Yusuke From pete at nomadlogic.org Fri Apr 7 23:32:20 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] netbsd xen 64bit dom0 Message-ID: <50585.70.38.30.24.1144467140.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> hey all, i was hoping that someone may be able to comment on stablilty of running a xen dom0 instance on a smp opteron hardware platform. from what i have read, to get a 64bit dom0 instance running you have to track current. if this is the case, is it at a usable state yet? thanks, pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 8 15:27:51 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:27:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ssh password auth note References: <20060408002146.35556.82361.yusuke@grape.cs.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Yusuke Shinyama writes: > Other sshd_config tidbits I could share is... One setting I always use: #Allow only specific users AllowUsers From ike at lesmuug.org Sun Apr 9 19:37:08 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 19:37:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? Message-ID: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> Hi All, From Slashdot, then Cnet there was this post about Linux being unfit for the'Laptop Per Child' project: Negroponte: Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop http://news.com.com/Negroponte+Slimmer+Linux+needed+for+100+laptop/ 2100-7346_3-6057456.html?tag=nefd.lede -or- http://tinyurl.com/ns3rr "People aren't thinking about small, fast, thin systems," said Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of the One Laptop Per Child nonprofit association, in a speech at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here. "Suddenly it's like a very fat person (who) uses most of the energy to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, too." -- That stated, if anyone is clost to Negroponte or the MIT scene, could you email them and point them to us to talk about all the fabulous BSD solutions? (mostly the stripped-down *BSD installs running embedded hardware etc...) To name a few, PicoBSD (FreeBSD base) http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html m0n0wall and m0n0bsd, (FreeBSD 4.x based, aimed at Soekris/WRAP embedded) http://m0n0.ch/ Flashdist (OpenBSD ULTRA-minimal installer) http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/ etc... etc... I bet many of us on list could get a functional desktop/windowing enviornment setup over a weekend of work- using one of the micro machines from the MIT project? :) -- More about this project: http://laptop.media.mit.edu/ http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69615-0.html?tw=wn_politics_6 -- Rocket, .ike From ike at lesmuug.org Sun Apr 9 21:06:14 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:06:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <4EB4E4E8-06B1-4621-8439-605A15618DF7@lesmuug.org> Sidenote/Update: Here's the hardware specs, (and a pic of their near-production prototype): http://wiki.laptop.org/wiki/Image:Laptop-crank.jpg http://wiki.laptop.org/wiki/Hardware_specification First Generation System Physical dimensions: Dimensions: 193mm ? 229mm ? 64mm (as of 3/27/06?subject to change) Weight: Less than 1.5 KG (target only?subject to change) Configuration: Convertible laptop with pivoting, reversible display; dirt- and moisture-resistant system enclosure Core electronics: CPU: AMD Geode GX2-533 at 1.1W CPU clock speed: 400 Mhz Compatibility: X86/X87-compatible Chipset: AMD CS5536 South Bridge Graphics controller: Integrated with Geode CPU; unified memory architecture Embedded controller: Based on ENE 3920 DRAM memory: 128MB dynamic RAM Data rate: Dual ? DDR266 ? 133 Mhz BIOS: 512KB SPI-interface flash ROM; LinuxBIOS open-source BIOS Mass storage: 512MB IDE-interfaced SLC NAND flash Drives: No rotating media Display: Liquid-crystal display: 7? Dual-mode TFT display Viewing area: 141.5 mm ? 105.8 mm Resolution: 1110 (H) ? 830 (V) resolution (200 dpi) Mono display: High-resolution, reflective monochrome mode Color display: Standard-resolution, quincunx-sampled, transmissive color mode Integrated peripherals: Keyboard: 80 keys, 1.2mm stroke; sealed rubber-membrane key-switch assembly Cursor-control keys: Dual five-key cursor-control pads; four directional keys plus Enter Touchpad: Capacitance-sensing touchpad; supports written-input mode Audio: Analog Devices AD1888, AC97-compatible audio codec; stereo, with dual internal speakers; monophonic, with internal microphone Wireless: Marvell 83W8388, 802.11b/g compatible; dual adjustable, rotating coaxial antennas; supports diversity reception Status indicators: Power, battery, WiFi; visible lid open or closed External connectors: Power: 2-pin DC-input, 10?25V Line output: Standard 3.5mm 3-pin switched stereo audio jack Microphone: Standard 3.5mm 2-pin switched mono microphone jack; selectable sensor-input mode Expansion: 3 Type-A USB-2.0 connectors Maximum power: 500 mA (total) Battery: Pack type: 6 Cells, 7.2V series configuration Fully-enclosed ?hard? case; user removable Capacity: 22.8 Watt-hours Cell type: 7/5AF or 18670 NiMH Pack protection: Integrated pack-type identification Integrated thermal sensor Integrated polyfuse current limiter Cycle life: Minimum 1,000 charge/discharge cycles BIOS/loader: LinuxBIOS is our intended BIOS for production units. Environmental specifications: Temperature: somewhere in between typical laptop requirements and Mil spec; exact values have not been settled Humidity: Similar attitude to temperature. When closed, the unit should seal well enough that children walking to and from school need not fear rainstorms or dust. Maximum altitude: -15m to 3048m (14.7 to 10.1 psia) (operating), -15m to 12192m (14.7 to 4.4 psia) (non-operating Shock 125g, 2ms, half-sine (operating) 200g, 2ms, half-sine (non- operating) Random vibration: 0.75g zero-to-peak, 10Hz to 500Hz, 0.25 oct/min sweep rate (operating); 1.5g zero-to-peak, 10Hz to 500Hz, 0.5 oct/min sweep rate (nonoperating) Regulatory requirements: The usual US and EU EMI/EMC requirements will be met. The laptop and all OLPC-supplied accessories will be fully UL and RoHS compliant. Rocket, .ike On Apr 9, 2006, at 7:37 PM, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > From Slashdot, then Cnet there was this post about Linux being unfit > for the'Laptop Per Child' project: > Negroponte: Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop > > http://news.com.com/Negroponte+Slimmer+Linux+needed+for+100+laptop/ > 2100-7346_3-6057456.html?tag=nefd.lede > -or- > http://tinyurl.com/ns3rr > > "People aren't thinking about small, fast, thin systems," said > Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of the One Laptop Per Child nonprofit > association, in a speech at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here. > "Suddenly it's like a very fat person (who) uses most of the energy > to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, > too." > > -- > That stated, if anyone is clost to Negroponte or the MIT scene, could > you email them and point them to us to talk about all the fabulous > BSD solutions? (mostly the stripped-down *BSD installs running > embedded hardware etc...) > > To name a few, > > PicoBSD (FreeBSD base) > http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html > > m0n0wall and m0n0bsd, (FreeBSD 4.x based, aimed at Soekris/WRAP > embedded) > http://m0n0.ch/ > > Flashdist (OpenBSD ULTRA-minimal installer) > http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/ > > etc... etc... > > I bet many of us on list could get a functional desktop/windowing > enviornment setup over a weekend of work- using one of the micro > machines from the MIT project? > > :) > > -- > More about this project: > > http://laptop.media.mit.edu/ > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69615-0.html?tw=wn_politics_6 > > > -- > > Rocket, > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From jonathan at kc8onw.net Sun Apr 9 21:23:08 2006 From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (Jonathan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 05:23:08 +0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Seeking HAM / Shortwave Guru In-Reply-To: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> References: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <4439B37C.1030300@kc8onw.net> Isaac Levy wrote: > Hey All, > > I'm looking to talk to some HAM / Shortwave folks in NYC, to pick > their brains in exchange for beer. > > HAM/Shortwave folks versed in issues with running packets via > Shortwave are especially the folks I'd like to speak to, but it's not > absolutely necessary. > > If you are one of these people, feel free to contact me off list- or- > if you are coming to any NYC*BUG meetings in the future, find me and > I'll definately buy you a drink for letting me pick your brain... > (If you don't know me, I look like: http://dotike.net/ike.jpg ). I've not done much packet myself but these guys [1] have been running a packet repeater/BBS for a long time now. The mailing list has minimal traffic but there are still a fair number of people on it. Jonathan [1] http://www.uc.edu/w8yx/ From ike at lesmuug.org Sun Apr 9 21:31:42 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:31:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Seeking HAM / Shortwave Guru In-Reply-To: <20060405011333.GA55080@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> References: <8F2FE5C7-3919-4B4D-A796-A812BCB9B96F@lesmuug.org> <20060405011333.GA55080@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net> Message-ID: <2F9638EC-0BB5-4FBD-A0AB-695764A23F5F@lesmuug.org> Hi Jim, On Apr 4, 2006, at 9:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > * Isaac Levy [2006-04-03 22:33]: >> Hey All, >> >> I'm looking to talk to some HAM / Shortwave folks in NYC, to pick >> their brains in exchange for beer. >> >> HAM/Shortwave folks versed in issues with running packets via >> Shortwave are especially the folks I'd like to speak to, but it's not >> absolutely necessary. >> >> If you are one of these people, feel free to contact me off list- or- >> if you are coming to any NYC*BUG meetings in the future, find me and >> I'll definately buy you a drink for letting me pick your brain... >> (If you don't know me, I look like: http://dotike.net/ike.jpg ). >> >> Rocket, >> .ike >> > > Phil Karn, KA9Q (hope I got that right) was an early guy in > Packet IP stuff. Google for his name or handle. Should turn > up a lot of stuff. > > Jim B. Thanks man! Good stuff indeed from this guy. /me snaps salute Rocket- .ike From mhernandez at ocsny.com Sun Apr 9 21:39:00 2006 From: mhernandez at ocsny.com (Michael Hernandez) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:39:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <4EB4E4E8-06B1-4621-8439-605A15618DF7@lesmuug.org> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <4EB4E4E8-06B1-4621-8439-605A15618DF7@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: I actually posted comments regarding this on osnews. I find that running openbsd on my zaurus is great, and although the hard drive on it is 4GB, the actual amount I'm using is considerably less (~2GB). In fact the space used would be even smaller if I didn't use it as a web development box (ruby/php/mysql). Regardless of whatever they use I'm sure netbsd will run on it... am I wrong? ;) IMHO it would be silly if BSD was not seriously considered for the project. Mike H From mspitzer at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 11:08:39 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:08:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604100808l2c25674ct7252bfbaa81cc5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/9/06, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > From Slashdot, then Cnet there was this post about Linux being unfit > for the'Laptop Per Child' project: > Negroponte: Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop > > http://news.com.com/Negroponte+Slimmer+Linux+needed+for+100+laptop/ > 2100-7346_3-6057456.html?tag=nefd.lede > -or- > http://tinyurl.com/ns3rr > > "People aren't thinking about small, fast, thin systems," said > Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of the One Laptop Per Child nonprofit > association, in a speech at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here. > "Suddenly it's like a very fat person (who) uses most of the energy > to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, too." > > -- > That stated, if anyone is clost to Negroponte or the MIT scene, could > you email them and point them to us to talk about all the fabulous > BSD solutions? (mostly the stripped-down *BSD installs running > embedded hardware etc...) > > To name a few, > > PicoBSD (FreeBSD base) > http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html > > m0n0wall and m0n0bsd, (FreeBSD 4.x based, aimed at Soekris/WRAP > embedded) > http://m0n0.ch/ actually NetBSD might be a better fit: 1: easier to port, from what I have read 2: binary package installer, including updates, for the base system and kernel 3: it is so easy to strip down there are no after market distros to make it small > > Flashdist (OpenBSD ULTRA-minimal installer) > http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/ > > etc... etc... > > I bet many of us on list could get a functional desktop/windowing > enviornment setup over a weekend of work- using one of the micro > machines from the MIT project? as long as there are no driver/kernel issues I do not see why not. marc > > :) > > -- > More about this project: > > http://laptop.media.mit.edu/ > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,69615-0.html?tw=wn_politics_6 > > > -- > > Rocket, > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From pete at nomadlogic.org Mon Apr 10 11:52:18 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:52:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 07:37:08PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > From Slashdot, then Cnet there was this post about Linux being unfit > for the'Laptop Per Child' project: > Negroponte: Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop > > http://news.com.com/Negroponte+Slimmer+Linux+needed+for+100+laptop/ > 2100-7346_3-6057456.html?tag=nefd.lede > -or- > http://tinyurl.com/ns3rr > > "People aren't thinking about small, fast, thin systems," said > Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of the One Laptop Per Child nonprofit > association, in a speech at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here. > "Suddenly it's like a very fat person (who) uses most of the energy > to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, too." > ok, i'm gonna play devils advocate here. what exactly does he mean by "linux has gotten too fat"? if he is refering to the kernel (which is all that linux really is) you can strip out anything you want...sorta easilly, to create a lean image. is he refering to a specific linux distro? debian is actually quite small IMO, and can be stripped easilly as well. ...as can slackware. i'll have to dig around and find exactly what he is talking about here. having said that, i think a BSD based OS is the logical choice for many reasons, a non-restrictive license being paramount - aside from all the technical aspects. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Mon Apr 10 18:51:04 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:51:04 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> On Apr 10, 2006, at 11:52 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > ok, i'm gonna play devils advocate here. what exactly does he mean by > "linux has gotten too fat"? if he is refering to the kernel (which is > all that linux really is) you can strip out anything you want...sorta > easilly, to create a lean image. is he refering to a specific > linux distro? > debian is actually quite small IMO, and can be stripped easilly as > well. > ...as can slackware. i'll have to dig around and find exactly what he > is talking about here. Thats not being devils advocate, thats being completely reasonable - and the original comment that linux is 'too fat' sounds pointed and , well, ignorant. The common linux distros are 'fat' - but they're fat for 2 reasons: a- they take a kitchen sink mentality -- they come with virtually everything under the sun available as a package/port b- they ship with every damn driver near imaginable That refers to the disk and the kernel - Pete is dead on, you can pretty much strip out anything under the sun Knoppix , the debian distro, is tailored down to 700mb and has just about everything someone would need - and then some. last i checked, there were some 100-200mb versions of it that still had all the basics. the bulk of it is hardware detection stuff too - given that OLPC is going to be pretty standardized, thats a ton of drivers that aren't needed. ( knoppix.net ) FeatherLinux is the knoppix remaster thats ~128mb ( http:// featherlinux.berlios.de ) and Damn Small linux is ~50mb and has , surprisingly, a ton of stuff ( damnsmalllinux.org ) I don't know if there are any FreeBSD things that are compatible. I've used some pen-drive ones to do a router-on-a-usb-key in an emergency, but I haven't seen a stripped down live-cd or equivalent that included a GUI - most seem console oriented, but I'm sure there exist somewhere. My point is that Linux/FreeBSD is as small or as large as you want your installation to be. It can be 120mb or 12gb , depending on what you want - and given that the hardware specs can be pretty much controlled - it should make things way easier. From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 11 01:15:44 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:15:44 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? Message-ID: Is there a way to determine what machine is connected to a particular nfsd server process? From ike at lesmuug.org Tue Apr 11 02:23:51 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:23:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Francisco, On Apr 11, 2006, at 1:15 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Is there a way to determine what machine is connected to a > particular nfsd > server process? I may be missing the point of your question since it's not an nfs utility per-se, but, # netstat | grep nfs Or are you looking for something different? Rocket- .ike From stucchi at willystudios.com Tue Apr 11 03:29:58 2006 From: stucchi at willystudios.com (Massimiliano Stucchi) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:29:58 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> Message-ID: <20060411072958.GC8706@willystudios.com> On 100406, 18:51, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > On Apr 10, 2006, at 11:52 AM, Pete Wright wrote: > > I don't know if there are any FreeBSD things that are compatible. > I've used some pen-drive ones to do a router-on-a-usb-key in an > emergency, but I haven't seen a stripped down live-cd or equivalent > that included a GUI - most seem console oriented, but I'm sure there > exist somewhere. hm ? What about FreeSBIE ? With the new 2.0 toolkit you are a "make" away from having your own stripped-down version. Ciao ! -- Massimiliano Stucchi WillyStudios.com stucchi at willystudios.com Http://www.willystudios.com/max/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 11:02:45 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:02:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 02:23:51AM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Francisco, > > On Apr 11, 2006, at 1:15 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Is there a way to determine what machine is connected to a > > particular nfsd > > server process? > > I may be missing the point of your question since it's not an nfs > utility per-se, but, > > # netstat | grep nfs > > Or are you looking for something different? > you may want to check out showmount, but that is if you are examining things from a client side. i am trying to remember if you can cull server side info from nfsstat...but I do not think that will work. so i think netstat is the way to go. only problem i can think of going this route is nfsv2 clients using UDP connections.... -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From mspitzer at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 11:05:31 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:05:31 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604110805t75c06ef2r693faccb7e73b9ad@mail.gmail.com> On 4/11/06, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi Francisco, > > On Apr 11, 2006, at 1:15 AM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > Is there a way to determine what machine is connected to a > > particular nfsd > > server process? would sockstat do, freebsd yes not sure about the rest. marc From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 11:10:15 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] distributed shell Message-ID: <5004.160.33.20.11.1144768215.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> hey all, does anyone know of a good distributed shell. i've been using PDSH for a while http://www.llnl.gov/linux/pdsh/ ..but the documentation is lacking, and has some other issues that i am not happy with. i'm also checking out dsh: http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/dsh.html not sure what i think of it yet. any other ones out there i'm missing? -pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Tue Apr 11 11:15:51 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:15:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <20060411072958.GC8706@willystudios.com> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> <20060411072958.GC8706@willystudios.com> Message-ID: <9809DBE2-F87A-48E7-9800-D7E100364479@2xlp.com> On Apr 11, 2006, at 3:29 AM, Massimiliano Stucchi wrote: > FreeSBIE and it does exist somewhere that looks like a neat project, and like it fits the specs exactly From ike at lesmuug.org Tue Apr 11 11:16:05 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:16:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30604100808l2c25674ct7252bfbaa81cc5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <8c50a3c30604100808l2c25674ct7252bfbaa81cc5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <273B05A7-24D4-43F9-BFBC-84CD6893CB62@lesmuug.org> Hey All, On Apr 10, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Marc Spitzer wrote: >> I bet many of us on list could get a functional desktop/windowing >> enviornment setup over a weekend of work- using one of the micro >> machines from the MIT project? > > as long as there are no driver/kernel issues I do not see why not. Some good responses on this thread, but let me re-iterate the hardware specifications: AMD Geode 400mhz 128mb DRAM 512mb IDE-interfaced Flash Rom for HD We're talking small. Current soekris boards have double these specs. -- With that, remember how much you could do with a Mac Classic (requirements that are closer to the kids laptops, windowing gui, etc...)? 8 MHz 68000 CPU 2mb memory 40mb hard drive Rocket- .ike From ike at lesmuug.org Tue Apr 11 11:21:18 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:21:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Parallel Virtual Machine Message-ID: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> Hey All, A colleague of mine just found something called PVM, which looks like a really interesting problem-solver (cheap and easy distributed CPU use?): On Apr 10, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Chad Whitacre wrote: > Hey all, > > Just came across this: > > PVM (Parallel Virtual Machine) is a software package that permits a > heterogeneous collection of Unix and/or Windows computers hooked > together by a network to be used as a single large parallel > computer. [...] With tens of thousands of users, PVM has become the > de facto standard for distributed computing world-wide. > > Anyone seen this before? There are Perl and Python bindings that > seem to be fairly well-maintained. > > http://www.csm.ornl.gov/pvm/ Rocket- .ike From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 11:57:59 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Parallel Virtual Machine In-Reply-To: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> References: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <52516.160.33.20.11.1144771079.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > Hey All, > > A colleague of mine just found something called PVM, which looks like > a really interesting problem-solver (cheap and easy distributed CPU > use?): yea i remember checking it out a while back. it seemed pretty good if you are writing a custom application. if i remember correctly PVM provides C lib's that allow you to pass messages via network sockets to your cluster for computation. unfortunatly, i was never in a situation where i could use it. -pete > > On Apr 10, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Chad Whitacre wrote: >> Hey all, >> >> Just came across this: >> >> PVM (Parallel Virtual Machine) is a software package that permits a >> heterogeneous collection of Unix and/or Windows computers hooked >> together by a network to be used as a single large parallel >> computer. [...] With tens of thousands of users, PVM has become the >> de facto standard for distributed computing world-wide. >> >> Anyone seen this before? There are Perl and Python bindings that >> seem to be fairly well-maintained. >> >> http://www.csm.ornl.gov/pvm/ > > > Rocket- > .ike > > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 11 12:19:46 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:19:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Pete Wright writes: >> I may be missing the point of your question since it's not an nfs >> utility per-se, but, >> # netstat | grep nfs Not enough info (will explain) > you may want to check out showmount Here is my situation. I had an nfsd proces which was using up all the I/O the machine could handle. I could kill it, but another nfsd will again will just pickup the process. I am basically trying to tie up the process ID from ps/top to a particular machine connecting to that particular nfsd daemon. So.. figure I start out in top, then "m" to view I/O, then o "total" to sort.. I see an nfsd with let's say a process ID (PID) 419 doing hundreds of transactions per second.. and vmstat "b" column shows the HDs are falling behind with nearly 200 transactions pending.. I now want to find what machine is connected to the nfsd with PID 419 My guess is that a program was having problems and was doing lots of transactions... at the client.. problem is that I don't know which client machine. I tried tcpdump, but that pretty much showed me all the nfs clients. :-( Hope that clarifies what I am looking for. From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 12:30:32 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:30:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060411163028.GA45305@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 12:19:46PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Pete Wright writes: > > >>I may be missing the point of your question since it's not an nfs > >>utility per-se, but, > >># netstat | grep nfs > > Not enough info (will explain) > > >you may want to check out showmount > > Here is my situation. > I had an nfsd proces which was using up all the I/O the machine could > handle. I could kill it, but another nfsd will again will just pickup the > process. > > I am basically trying to tie up the process ID from ps/top to a particular > machine connecting to that particular nfsd daemon. > > So.. figure I start out in top, then "m" to view I/O, then > o "total" to sort.. > > I see an nfsd with let's say a process ID (PID) 419 doing hundreds > of transactions per second.. and vmstat "b" column shows the HDs are > falling behind with nearly 200 transactions pending.. I now want to find > what machine is connected to the nfsd with PID 419 > ahh...pretty fun problem there ;) have you tried running: % strace -p 419 this should show you a couple things, what the nfsd is doing and hopefully what client it is doing it with. egad's, been doing too much on linux lately, that's ktrace not strace ;) -p > My guess is that a program was having problems and was doing lots of > transactions... at the client.. problem is that I don't know which > client machine. > > I tried tcpdump, but that pretty much showed me all the nfs clients. :-( > hmm..yea that's alot of data, esp. if it's pegging your machine. not sure how much time you have to work on this, but maybe /usr/ports/net/ng_netflow can be of some help? -pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From tillman at seekingfire.com Tue Apr 11 13:41:10 2006 From: tillman at seekingfire.com (Tillman Hodgson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:41:10 -0600 Subject: [nycbug-talk] distributed shell In-Reply-To: <5004.160.33.20.11.1144768215.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> References: <5004.160.33.20.11.1144768215.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060411174110.GJ29268@seekingfire.com> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 08:10:15AM -0700, Peter Wright wrote: > > hey all, does anyone know of a good distributed shell. i've been using > PDSH for a while > http://www.llnl.gov/linux/pdsh/ > > ..but the documentation is lacking, and has some other issues that i am > not happy with. i'm also checking out dsh: > > http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/dsh.html > > not sure what i think of it yet. > > > any other ones out there i'm missing? I'm a fan of ClusterIt, and wrote an article on it a few years ago that's referenced from the project web page: http://www.seekingfire.com/documents/toolshed/clusterit.html It's very familiar feeling for those with PSSP experience, and it works great in a Kerberized environment. One could use SSH as well, though I haven't worked with it that way. -T -- I'm an apatheist. The question is no longer interesting, and the answer no longer matters. -- A.S.R. quote (petro) From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 13:54:28 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] distributed shell In-Reply-To: <20060411174110.GJ29268@seekingfire.com> References: <5004.160.33.20.11.1144768215.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20060411174110.GJ29268@seekingfire.com> Message-ID: <37782.160.33.20.11.1144778068.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 08:10:15AM -0700, Peter Wright wrote: >> >> hey all, does anyone know of a good distributed shell. i've been using >> PDSH for a while >> http://www.llnl.gov/linux/pdsh/ >> >> ..but the documentation is lacking, and has some other issues that i am >> not happy with. i'm also checking out dsh: >> >> http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/dsh.html >> >> not sure what i think of it yet. >> >> >> any other ones out there i'm missing? > > I'm a fan of ClusterIt, and wrote an article on it a few years ago > that's referenced from the project web page: > http://www.seekingfire.com/documents/toolshed/clusterit.html > > It's very familiar feeling for those with PSSP experience, and it works > great in a Kerberized environment. One could use SSH as well, though I > haven't worked with it that way. > > -T > > awesome, thanks Tillman! I think I remember reading your article a while back. funny how small our community is. -pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 11 15:11:23 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:11:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060411163028.GA45305@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Pete Wright writes: > egad's, been doing too much on linux lately, that's ktrace not strace ;) Kernel was not compiled with ktrace. :-( > hmm..yea that's alot of data, esp. if it's pegging your machine. not > sure how much time you have to work on this, but maybe > /usr/ports/net/ng_netflow can be of some help? We killed ALL nfsd.. then rebooted. The problem went away. Just want to prepare myself for the next time the same happens. Will check ng_netflow. Thanks. From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 15:19:27 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060411163028.GA45305@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <36628.160.33.20.11.1144783167.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > Pete Wright writes: > >> egad's, been doing too much on linux lately, that's ktrace not strace ;) > > Kernel was not compiled with ktrace. :-( ahh...that's a bummer. it's very handy, although it is something i would remove from a public machine. for an internal server it may be worth including it in your next buildworld ;) -pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 11 15:24:01 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: <36628.160.33.20.11.1144783167.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060411163028.GA45305@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <36628.160.33.20.11.1144783167.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <44990.160.33.20.11.1144783441.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > >> Pete Wright writes: >> >>> egad's, been doing too much on linux lately, that's ktrace not strace >>> ;) >> >> Kernel was not compiled with ktrace. :-( > > ahh...that's a bummer. it's very handy, although it is something i would > remove from a public machine. for an internal server it may be worth > including it in your next buildworld ;) gah, i guess i should include this in the thread for completeness. you will need ktrace and kdump on your machine for this to work. forgot that unlike strace, ktrace will dump your trace to a file by default (ktrace.otu by default). which is actually pretty great. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From njt at ayvali.org Tue Apr 11 16:48:39 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:48:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco Message-ID: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> We have a (huge) Cisco 6506 switch with a routing module that handles all our network traffic, bgp, etc. Roughly, our network looks something like this: [Tier1] [Tier1] | | +---+ +----+ | | +----+------+---+ | Cisco 6506 | +-+--+-------+--+ | | | S1 S2 ... S50 (About 50 servers hooked up directly into the Cisco) The problem with this whole setup is threefold: - it is big (about 12 or 16u I think) - it is quite expensive (>$50k a couple of years ago) - it is a single point of failure Will be expanding in the near future, adding another Tier1, as well as anticipating 50-100% growth in the number of servers in about 2-3 years time. The 6506 being so large and expensive is not a major issue in and of itself, but because it is a SPOF, its size and cost does affect our plans. So the proposal was to split the whole thing up. Roughly, the architecture would be: - arrange servers into 4 cabinets - put a switch in each cabinet (Cisco 2960?), to which each server would be connected - have the carriers go into a switch which feeds into a smaller router (Cisco 2821?) which would go out to the switches which the servers are connected to - have spares available on hand for all switches and routers in case something fails Our proposed network would probably look roughly something like this: [Tier1] [Tier1] [Tier1] | | | +-+ + +--+ | | | +--+----+----+--+ +--+----+----+--+ | Cisco 2960 | | Cisco 2960 | +-------+-------+ +-------+-------+ --- servers | | +-------+-------+ +--+----+----+--+ | Cisco 2821 |---| Cisco 2960 | --- servers +---------------+ +-------+-------+ | +--+----+----+--+ | Cisco 2960 | --- servers +-------+-------+ Is this a viable solution? How would you modify it to provide some measure of redundancy? Another thing I am worried about is the whether or not the 2821 router can handle 3 carriers. Our traffic needs are fairly low, our Tier 1 carriers are both 5Mbit burstable, and we rarely go above 15Mbit during peak times. We'd be adding another carrier only for redundancy, not for the bandwidth. However, because we are an ASN running BGP, I'm not sure if the 2821 router would be constrained by memory limitations. thanks, Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From ike at lesmuug.org Tue Apr 11 17:02:09 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:02:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> References: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: Hello N.J., On Apr 11, 2006, at 4:48 PM, N.J. Thomas wrote: > Another thing I am worried about is the whether or not the 2821 router > can handle 3 carriers. Our traffic needs are fairly low, our Tier 1 > carriers are both 5Mbit burstable, and we rarely go above 15Mbit > during > peak times. We'd be adding another carrier only for redundancy, not > for > the bandwidth. However, because we are an ASN running BGP, I'm not > sure > if the 2821 router would be constrained by memory limitations. Before I (or anyone else) blabs too much on the topic, I noted that your original email doesn't mention CARP (or Cisco's VRRP) as a tool for providing redundancy. Is there any reason why you want/need to stick to Cisco gear? -- With a decent budget, and a decent amount of rackspace (let's say 6u), is it out of the scope of reason to run OpenBSD on new X86 hardware, and use OpenBSD? CARP and OpenBGPD are ostensibly designed explicitly to suit your needs. The hardware used could be comoddoty X86 gear, and if your uncomfortable cramming too many nics into the boxes, you could use inexpensive (therefore easily replaceable) dumb switches to feed the servers. You could therefore fit 2 1u switches (perhaps with 48 ports each) and 4 1u servers, (quad ethernet nics in each) into the same rackspace, for a pretty good price- and maintain extreme transparent redundancy, (as well as many other benefits from using OpenBSD on your perimeter). -- Here's a basic document about using CARP, if it helps: http://www.countersiege.com/doc/pfsync-carp/ Best, .ike From njt at ayvali.org Tue Apr 11 17:22:36 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:22:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: References: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <20060411212236.GC807@ayvali.org> * Isaac Levy [2006-04-11 17:02:09 -0400]: > I noted that your original email doesn't mention CARP (or Cisco's > VRRP) as a tool for providing redundancy. That provides for router redudancy. > Is there any reason why you want/need to stick to Cisco gear? > > CARP and OpenBGPD are ostensibly designed explicitly to suit your > needs. Believe it or not, I had looked at OpenBGPD/OpenBSD as our first choice for the whole setup (we are actually a FreeBSD house, but OpenBGPD on FreeBSD wasn't an official port), but in this case the powers that be dictated that we had to use Cisco gear. =-( Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From alex at pilosoft.com Tue Apr 11 17:26:53 2006 From: alex at pilosoft.com (alex at pilosoft.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, N.J. Thomas wrote: > Will be expanding in the near future, adding another Tier1, as well as > anticipating 50-100% growth in the number of servers in about 2-3 years > time. The 6506 being so large and expensive is not a major issue in and > of itself, but because it is a SPOF, its size and cost does affect our > plans. > > So the proposal was to split the whole thing up. Roughly, the > architecture would be: > > - arrange servers into 4 cabinets > > - put a switch in each cabinet (Cisco 2960?), to which each server > would be connected > > - have the carriers go into a switch which feeds into a smaller > router (Cisco 2821?) which would go out to the switches which the > servers are connected to > > - have spares available on hand for all switches and routers in case > something fails > > Our proposed network would probably look roughly something like this: > > [Tier1] [Tier1] [Tier1] > | | | > +-+ + +--+ > | | | > +--+----+----+--+ +--+----+----+--+ > | Cisco 2960 | | Cisco 2960 | > +-------+-------+ +-------+-------+ --- servers > | | > +-------+-------+ +--+----+----+--+ > | Cisco 2821 |---| Cisco 2960 | --- servers > +---------------+ +-------+-------+ > | > +--+----+----+--+ > | Cisco 2960 | --- servers > +-------+-------+ > > Is this a viable solution? How would you modify it to provide some > measure of redundancy? > > Another thing I am worried about is the whether or not the 2821 router > can handle 3 carriers. Our traffic needs are fairly low, our Tier 1 > carriers are both 5Mbit burstable, and we rarely go above 15Mbit during > peak times. We'd be adding another carrier only for redundancy, not for > the bandwidth. However, because we are an ASN running BGP, I'm not sure > if the 2821 router would be constrained by memory limitations. 1) find a network guy who knows what they are doing. You omitted crucial things: * what supervisor do you have on 6506. If you have sup1, yes, it may time to throw that junk away, not much of reusability here (but even then, if you are doing 15Mbps, sup1 will handle just fine). If you have sup2 (or sup720), it is *great*. Don't even think about 2821s if you already got 6509 with sup2. Buy another one for redundancy, 6506 with sup2 isn't all that spensive. 65xx as a platform is few orders of magnitude more scalable than 28xx. * do you have a 'flat' network or do you have servers segmented into vlans, and different IP blocks on each vlan? a) The *preferred* way is to do layer 3 on each of your 'distribution' switches (the ones in each rack), and do OSPF between each of the distribution switches and your "core" (whether the core is 2821 or 65xx). 2960 is not a layer 3 switch. If you go this way, get 3560 or 3570. Then, each of the 3560s connects to each of the 65xx (or 2821), and announces reachability with OSPF. b) If you want to do layer 2 on distribution switches (your 2960s), that is fine. Failover in this case will be accomplished by STP/RSTP. STP can *really* mess your network up if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Again, in this case, each of the distribution switches is connected to each of the core switches. In this case, you will be running VRRP or HSRP on the core switches to provide for failover. This config is more "fragile" than the configuration a) above. The physical config in both cases will look the same. The logical (IP) will be very different. * redundancy among upstreams is accomplished by putting some upstreams on one core switch, and other upstreams on another. * 2821 can do 15mbps just fine, and can handle full tables fine. From alex at pilosoft.com Tue Apr 11 17:29:32 2006 From: alex at pilosoft.com (alex at pilosoft.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Isaac Levy wrote: > Before I (or anyone else) blabs too much on the topic, I noted that your > original email doesn't mention CARP (or Cisco's VRRP) as a tool for > providing redundancy. > > Is there any reason why you want/need to stick to Cisco gear? > > -- With a decent budget, and a decent amount of rackspace (let's say > 6u), is it out of the scope of reason to run OpenBSD on new X86 > hardware, and use OpenBSD? It's called the real world. :) I've got to admit, I sleep so much better ever since junking my quagga/loonix routers in favor of proper (and expensive solutions). The clue can substitute for spending money, sometimes. But other times, even though you *think* you can, the resulting configuration is too brittle, and care & feeding will take far more time than buying a complete solution from cisco. From ike at lesmuug.org Tue Apr 11 17:56:38 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:56:38 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi ALex, N.J., All, On Apr 11, 2006, at 5:29 PM, alex at pilosoft.com wrote: > On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Isaac Levy wrote: > >> Before I (or anyone else) blabs too much on the topic, I noted >> that your >> original email doesn't mention CARP (or Cisco's VRRP) as a tool for >> providing redundancy. >> >> Is there any reason why you want/need to stick to Cisco gear? >> >> -- With a decent budget, and a decent amount of rackspace (let's say >> 6u), is it out of the scope of reason to run OpenBSD on new X86 >> hardware, and use OpenBSD? > It's called the real world. :) I've got to admit, I sleep so much > better > ever since junking my quagga/loonix routers in favor of proper (and > expensive solutions). In many situations, I can't agree with you more. In other situations, I can't disagree with you more :) > > The clue can substitute for spending money, sometimes. But other > times, > even though you *think* you can, the resulting configuration is too > brittle, and care & feeding will take far more time than buying a > complete > solution from cisco. > > While I see this can be true in many enviornments, I know far too many of us on list have been bit in the behind by vendor packaged solutions- on many scales, in many ways. With that, the 'care and feeding' of an Open Source solution can often outlast commercial offerings- as well as provide excellent scalability. (/me refrains from starting a flame war touting the lack of 'care and feeding' required in the BSD world vs. other Open Source tech...) With that, the choice should be made in the context of the goals, budget, commitment level, etc... And in N.J.'s case, it seems the Cisco gear is perhaps the most appropriate. Best, .ike From njt at ayvali.org Tue Apr 11 18:02:39 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:02:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: <20060411212236.GC807@ayvali.org> References: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> <20060411212236.GC807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <20060411220239.GD807@ayvali.org> * N.J. Thomas [2006-04-11 17:22:36 -0400]: > * Isaac Levy [2006-04-11 17:02:09 -0400]: > > I noted that your original email doesn't mention CARP (or Cisco's > > VRRP) as a tool for providing redundancy. > > That provides for router redudancy. Feh, fat fingered out the rest of the para in vi. I meant to say: That provides for router redundancy and it is fairly easy to throw in another router to make the one redundant, but we really only have one router, so replicating it is fairly easy. However, the switches are all over the place, and I'm not sure there is a well documented protocol way to make this redundant other than plugging in each server into two switches. (Or accept the down time it takes to replace a switch if something fails.) Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 11 18:14:09 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:14:09 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060411163028.GA45305@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <36628.160.33.20.11.1144783167.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Peter Wright writes: > ahh...that's a bummer. it's very handy, although it is something i would > remove from a public machine. It's a public machine, so I guess it's good that it is not there. :-) > for an internal server it may be worth > including it in your next buildworld ;) Thanks. will keep that in mind.. although I only have 1 or 2 truly private machines.. everything else is visible from the scary public world From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 11 19:17:29 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (Dru) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20060411191625.W541@dru.domain.org> On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > From Slashdot, then Cnet there was this post about Linux being unfit > for the'Laptop Per Child' project: > Negroponte: Slimmer Linux needed for $100 laptop > > http://news.com.com/Negroponte+Slimmer+Linux+needed+for+100+laptop/ > 2100-7346_3-6057456.html?tag=nefd.lede > -or- > http://tinyurl.com/ns3rr > > "People aren't thinking about small, fast, thin systems," said > Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of the One Laptop Per Child nonprofit > association, in a speech at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo here. > "Suddenly it's like a very fat person (who) uses most of the energy > to move the fat. And Linux is no exception. Linux has gotten fat, too." > > -- > That stated, if anyone is clost to Negroponte or the MIT scene, could > you email them and point them to us to talk about all the fabulous > BSD solutions? (mostly the stripped-down *BSD installs running > embedded hardware etc...) > > To name a few, > > PicoBSD (FreeBSD base) > http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html > > m0n0wall and m0n0bsd, (FreeBSD 4.x based, aimed at Soekris/WRAP > embedded) > http://m0n0.ch/ > > Flashdist (OpenBSD ULTRA-minimal installer) > http://www.nmedia.net/~chris/soekris/ > > etc... etc... > > I bet many of us on list could get a functional desktop/windowing > enviornment setup over a weekend of work- using one of the micro > machines from the MIT project? His contact information is easy enough to find: http://web.media.mit.edu/~nicholas/ Anyone have the time/guts to draft an email--perhaps on behalf of NYCBug so it's not just one Joe-blow's opinion? Dru From dave at donnerjack.com Tue Apr 11 20:14:24 2006 From: dave at donnerjack.com (David Lawson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:14:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: <20060411220239.GD807@ayvali.org> References: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> <20060411212236.GC807@ayvali.org> <20060411220239.GD807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <2C4F9D18-23DA-409A-AA7E-D7C73D0F9A0A@donnerjack.com> > > However, the switches are all over the place, and I'm not sure > there is > a well documented protocol way to make this redundant other than > plugging in each server into two switches. (Or accept the down time it > takes to replace a switch if something fails.) Generally if a switch failure is an unacceptable loss you need to go with something like redundant switches and dual NICs with NIC bonding on the server side. Unfortunately, there really aren't any other ways to provide redundancy at the distribution layer, certainly none that I know of. --Dave From george at galis.org Tue Apr 11 23:17:05 2006 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:17:05 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Parallel Virtual Machine In-Reply-To: <52516.160.33.20.11.1144771079.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> References: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> <52516.160.33.20.11.1144771079.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060412031705.GB14250@sta.duo> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 08:57:59AM -0700, Peter Wright wrote: > >> Hey All, >> >> A colleague of mine just found something called PVM, which looks like >> a really interesting problem-solver (cheap and easy distributed CPU >> use?): > >yea i remember checking it out a while back. it seemed pretty good if you >are writing a custom application. if i remember correctly PVM provides C >lib's that allow you to pass messages via network sockets to your cluster >for computation. unfortunatly, i was never in a situation where i could >use it. I think it was shipped in the redhat desktop since 6.0 or 6.1. But I've never seen it running. Think pov-ray mentioned it before, but now there's http://www.instant-grid.org/ or Sun Grid Engine and others... // George -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator < http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From huyslogic at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 09:58:11 2006 From: huyslogic at gmail.com (Huy Ton That) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:58:11 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie Message-ID: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into some shell scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone had any feedback as far as other shells are out there and just get a feel for the general preference if any exists; speaking purely for flexibility. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nycbug at cyth.net Wed Apr 12 10:09:12 2006 From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:09:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060412140935.GB8999@syntax.cyth.net> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:58:11AM -0400, Huy Ton That wrote: > Hey all, I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into some shell > scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone had any feedback as > far as other shells are out there and just get a feel for the general > preference if any exists; speaking purely for flexibility. I try to stick to generic Bourne shell scripting, which works with both Korn shell and Bash. But then, I'm pretty oblivious as to what is Korn and what isn't, since I can test it on pdksh. Whenever I need examples I look in the /etc/rc* scripts, which your operating system may or may not have (anymore). -Ray- From mikel.king at ocsny.com Wed Apr 12 10:19:12 2006 From: mikel.king at ocsny.com (Mikel King) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:19:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55B25E51-E8EA-46E1-AF26-9A4540D04021@ocsny.com> On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Huy Ton That wrote: > Hey all, I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into > some shell scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone > had any feedback as far as other shells are out there and just get > a feel for the general preference if any exists; speaking purely > for flexibility. hi Huy, You are free to shell anyway you please. Truthfully it all depends on which OS you are planing on using, and what your desired end user is. If you are using BSD general tcsh is a good choice as it is default on many systems therefore, you would not need to add anything else after a fresh install. That being said, if you have to install libraries os other applications to support your scripts then what is the trouble with adding another (the shell itself)? Of course if your into some advanced scripting your could go php5-cli, tcl, python, ruby, or perl. The list is pretty much endless... If you are are an uber-portability freak then stick with sh, as just about every UNIX/LINUX system has it. Anyway there's a nickel, I'm sure others will chime in. Cheers, Mikel From scottro at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 12 10:19:28 2006 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:19:28 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060412141928.GB11332@uws1.starlofashions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:58:11AM -0400, Huy Ton That wrote: > Hey all, I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into some shell > scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone had any feedback as > far as other shells are out there and just get a feel for the general > preference if any exists; speaking purely for flexibility. Heh, no doubt you'll get a great many answers. I would say, however, do your best to use sh rather than bash, simply for portability. On Linux, most of the time, /bin/sh is a link to /bin/bash. However, on the BSDs and other Unix and Unix like systems, /bin/sh might be all you have. So, if you write a script with the top line of #!/bin/bash You'd have to modify it for FreeBSD to #!/usr/local/bin/bash and on NetBSD to #!/usr/pkg/bin/bash and the like. Bash has a few features that sh lacks, such as the select loop, but, especially when you're just beginning, you can probably do most of what you want in sh. (I use zsh myself, but for scripts, I use sh.) - -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Principal Snyder: There are things I will not tolerate: students loitering on campus after school, horrible murders with hearts being removed. And also smoking. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFEPQxw+lTVdes0Z9YRAh9BAJ9M4/yxmlGCsqye0if6vAUiKnI3EgCfb7h/ bwtIEyzVxKUQduyMfcGWzD8= =833y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mhernandez at ocsny.com Wed Apr 12 10:44:08 2006 From: mhernandez at ocsny.com (Michael Hernandez) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:44:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <55B25E51-E8EA-46E1-AF26-9A4540D04021@ocsny.com> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> <55B25E51-E8EA-46E1-AF26-9A4540D04021@ocsny.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Huy Ton That wrote: > >> Hey all, I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into >> some shell scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone >> had any feedback as far as other shells are out there and just get >> a feel for the general preference if any exists; speaking purely >> for flexibility. I've found that zsh is definitely the best for me, though some might say it's bloated (because it is). Bloated though it may be, there are things you can do with zsh that you just can't do with any other. For example, if you want to remove spaces from filenames, you can simply: for file in ./*\ *; do mv $file ${file:gs/\ /_/}; done; since zsh has a builtin sort of "sed" functionality. Another use of that sed like ability is changing filenames to be all lowercase: for name in ./*[[:upper:]]*; do mv $name ${name//(#m)[A-Z]/$ {(L)MATCH}}; done; Of course you can get those things done with standard unix shell tools, but I find it very convenient to have that sort of thing built in to the shell. I think of it as the ultimate in flexibility. Of course you can get spoiled after a while... you will want zsh on every machine ;) Mike From njt at ayvali.org Wed Apr 12 10:56:43 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:56:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060412145643.GI807@ayvali.org> * Huy Ton That [2006-04-12 09:58:11 -0400]: > I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into some shell > scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone had any > feedback as far as other shells are out there Write all your shell scripts in Bourne, unless you are absolutely sure you won't need to port your script anywhere -- shell scripts have a tendency to long outlive their originally intended lifespan. /bin/sh can sometimes be a pain, but the gains in being able to run your script on practically any Unix machine anywhere are well worth it. I wrote a script yesterday for work where arrays would have been a nice feature, but I had to get by with using crazy tricks like: i=0 while [ "$i" -lt "$NUM_MACHINES" ]; do i=`expr $i + 1`; eval mach="\${NAME_MACHINE_$i}" ... done But in the end, I'm confident that the script will run anywhere with a minimal amount of tweaking. (FWIW, for some reason, Linux users seem to be especially bad at writing shell scripts (usually in Bash) that seem to work only on Linux. I never understood why this is, perhaps /bin/sh on all Linux boxes are just links to /bin/bash?) Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From mhernandez at ocsny.com Wed Apr 12 11:07:24 2006 From: mhernandez at ocsny.com (Michael Hernandez) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:07:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <20060412145643.GI807@ayvali.org> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> <20060412145643.GI807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <8DA0CEE9-9334-470B-BAF7-4B2564391BCD@ocsny.com> On Apr 12, 2006, at 10:56 AM, N.J. Thomas wrote: > perhaps /bin/sh > on all Linux boxes are just links to /bin/bash?) On 99% of machines that is exactly the case. Sometimes it's a link to ash, but normally bash. Bash is supposed to run in "bourne compliant" mode when called from the symlink but it still allows for some "bashisms" iirc. Mike H From pete at nomadlogic.org Wed Apr 12 11:23:33 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:23:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Parallel Virtual Machine In-Reply-To: <20060412031705.GB14250@sta.duo> References: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> <52516.160.33.20.11.1144771079.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20060412031705.GB14250@sta.duo> Message-ID: <20060412152309.GA50571@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 11:17:05PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: > On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 08:57:59AM -0700, Peter Wright wrote: > > > >> Hey All, > >> > >> A colleague of mine just found something called PVM, which looks like > >> a really interesting problem-solver (cheap and easy distributed CPU > >> use?): > > > >yea i remember checking it out a while back. it seemed pretty good if you > >are writing a custom application. if i remember correctly PVM provides C > >lib's that allow you to pass messages via network sockets to your cluster > >for computation. unfortunatly, i was never in a situation where i could > >use it. > > I think it was shipped in the redhat desktop since 6.0 or 6.1. > But I've never seen it running. Think pov-ray mentioned it before, > but now there's http://www.instant-grid.org/ or Sun Grid Engine > and others... > heh...RH ships the pvm libs? i didn't realize that, must have missed it inbetween the kitchen sink and bathtub they also supply :) I think this architecture is different than a "grid" or what ever market-speak is being used today. from what i've gathered, grid's are mainly batch processing systems that do some tricks to spread the load amoung a farm of cpu's. a PVM seemed closer to a large shared memory cluster. it may seem like a trivial difference but from a programming and application perspective it's pretty huge. from what I understand, a grid/batch system will take a discreet chunk of code - process it - then send the result back to the master. a shared memory cluster is able to take one set of instructions and have the computation spread along multiple machines at the same time. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From pete at nomadlogic.org Wed Apr 12 11:30:37 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:30:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060412153037.GB50571@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:58:11AM -0400, Huy Ton That wrote: > Hey all, I've always used the bash shell and wanted to get into some shell > scripting. Before I started, I curious to see if anyone had any feedback as > far as other shells are out there and just get a feel for the general > preference if any exists; speaking purely for flexibility. this is an interesting link. funny for me because out of lazyness i end up writting most of my scripts in csh...although if i am going to write something more than 20 lines of code i use perl or python. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/shell/csh-whynot/ -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From eksffa at freebsdbrasil.com.br Wed Apr 12 12:00:56 2006 From: eksffa at freebsdbrasil.com.br (Patrick Tracanelli) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:00:56 -0300 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Parallel Virtual Machine In-Reply-To: <20060412152309.GA50571@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> <52516.160.33.20.11.1144771079.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20060412031705.GB14250@sta.duo> <20060412152309.GA50571@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <443D2438.7010008@freebsdbrasil.com.br> I worked with PVM in the past, while I was at the university. We rebuilt a number of sequential Washington University's genetical sequencing tools used in Brazilian Genome efforts at UNESP (SP University). It is not easy, but it has potential for great results. On the other hand the results are directly related to the ability of the developers stop thinking sequencially and start doing it parallel. The main focus on the code analisys is regarding "granularity". The most "granular" specs of the code are the ones which do need huge amount of CPU cycles to do a given task and this task is potentially done a number of times, the same way. "for" and "while" loops which takes much processing time for each loop instance are the main target of code to be PVM'd. On the other hand PVMing the wrong chunck of code may result in message passing on the network for small processing goals, which will certainly led the system to underpeform. It is a very difficult task to optmize a system to work with PVM and it completly source code related. The developer must be completly aware of the pvm send and get calls everywhere and how to keep track of the "control" of the parallel processes in a few number of programs and specially in a small number of machines (not paralelizing the controls). This is probably why many people have their choice on going in the "grid" path or other message passing solutions such as MPI (ports/net/mpich), since they don't deeply depend on rewriting the code to make it parallel. That said, and specially the "non-easy" aspect considered on PVMing a system, the PVM framework is excellent. The PVM shell allows one in the master node to completly control and monitor what is going on the cluster, one can add or delete new machines on the PVM cluster at any time, and the interesting stuff is, since PVM-aware programs need to be fully available in all nodes on the PVM enviroment, it may run with modified priority, and, PVM is ready for most of the know archs and operating systems. It means you can have a completly heteronegeous enviroment with, say, SGI, BSD, Linux and Windows machines, part of the PVM cluster. And they may be considered higher or lower relevance/priority in the cluster, canse where for example, you can have machines doing other jobs in a certain time period, and not need to get out of the cluster (less pvm jobs can be assigned to this machine) and later assume a higher prio (more pvm jobs). PVM lib will control it. In our case in the University we had SPARC with Solaris and i386 BSD machines dedicated to the processing, but other machines running Windows or Mac OS (some front end programs to "map" the results of the genome processing data were GUI to run only in windows or Mac) were not dedicated. So when they were doing "other stuff" they were only assumed to be lesser prio in the PVM enviroment, so less jobs were assigned to 'em. When they were idle, we put 'em in their usual prio which would take full adavantages of its participation on the cluster. Also, I must say that PVM people are very attentious. We had direct help from James Arthur Kohl himself back in 2001-2003 years, when we had problems on parallelizing. Sometimes he contributed with code analisys, other turns sent some precious docs which discussed problems similar to ours - which are all available on the ORNL (Oak Ridge National Lab) web site. After I graduated in 2004 I did not have more contact with PVM. In fact I had my attention grab for MPI better than PVM, but I must say PVM is an exausting experience, but which takes to potentially better results than any other parallel processing approach I am aware of. -- Patrick Tracanelli FreeBSD Brasil LTDA. (31) 3281-9633 / 3281-3547 316601 at sip.freebsdbrasil.com.br http://www.freebsdbrasil.com.br "Long live Hanin Elias, Kim Deal!" From ike at lesmuug.org Wed Apr 12 12:02:57 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 12:02:57 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <20060412145643.GI807@ayvali.org> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> <20060412145643.GI807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <0001591A-4E04-4AC8-ADD0-75DBA598A4A3@lesmuug.org> Hi Huy, On Apr 12, 2006, at 10:56 AM, N.J. Thomas wrote: > /bin/sh can sometimes be a pain, but the gains in being able to run > your > script on practically any Unix machine anywhere are well worth it. I'm going to loudly echo that using straight /bin/sh is key to near absolute portability. It's lazily enabled me to use scripts I wrote years ago on systems I never thought I'd use them in, (IRIX, Raw Apple Darwin, Varioux Linux distros). For work projects, the tradeoffs for dealing with the limitations of not using cool bash/korn/tcsh features has been well worth it for me to write something, and forget about how I wrote it- and to just keep using it over and over... That stated however, I'm a developer who works with Python by choice, so my philosophy on shell scripting is that if the script gets too complicated, it's a 'program', and best to use a real programming- oriented language, (Python, Perl, or to stick to UNIX culture- C, C++). My strategy doesn't really apply if your a strict sysadmin though, and I've worked with sysadmins who were hardcore bash scripters, and they get a TON of mileage out of sticking to their bash-fu (folks who don't care about using other languages as a part of their computing life). -- It's not about muscle, or speed, or using the 'best' tools, it's about meeting your needs to do what you want to do with the computers. - likely a famous quote from someone much smarter than me (if not, then I'll say I said that) Rocket- .ike From george at galis.org Thu Apr 13 00:43:15 2006 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:43:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Parallel Virtual Machine In-Reply-To: <20060412152309.GA50571@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <80CD886D-1F4F-4329-AA4C-1C653110069F@lesmuug.org> <52516.160.33.20.11.1144771079.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20060412031705.GB14250@sta.duo> <20060412152309.GA50571@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060413044315.GJ27738@sta.duo> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 11:23:33AM -0400, Pete Wright wrote: >On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 11:17:05PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 08:57:59AM -0700, Peter Wright wrote: >> > >> >> Hey All, >> >> >> >> A colleague of mine just found something called PVM, which looks like >> >> a really interesting problem-solver (cheap and easy distributed CPU >> >> use?): >> > >> >yea i remember checking it out a while back. it seemed pretty good if you >> >are writing a custom application. if i remember correctly PVM provides C >> >lib's that allow you to pass messages via network sockets to your cluster >> >for computation. unfortunatly, i was never in a situation where i could >> >use it. >> >> I think it was shipped in the redhat desktop since 6.0 or 6.1. >> But I've never seen it running. Think pov-ray mentioned it before, >> but now there's http://www.instant-grid.org/ or Sun Grid Engine >> and others... >> > >heh...RH ships the pvm libs? i didn't realize that, must have missed it >inbetween the kitchen sink and bathtub they also supply :) I think >this architecture is different than a "grid" or what ever market-speak >is being used today. from what i've gathered, grid's are mainly batch >processing systems that do some tricks to spread the load amoung a farm >of cpu's. a PVM seemed closer to a large shared memory cluster. it may >seem like a trivial difference but from a programming and application >perspective it's pretty huge. from what I understand, a grid/batch >system will take a discreet chunk of code - process it - then send the >result back to the master. a shared memory cluster is able to take one >set of instructions and have the computation spread along multiple >machines at the same time. Pretty much right on. SGE (et al) works if you can break the work into a batch set, while PVM is better if your threads need shared memory. If you like both apples and oranges, an grid is a lot easier to execute than PVM, And thanks to Patrick for the really experienced perspective. But hold on, before going out PVM developing. The Sun Fire T2000 # UltraSPARC T1 processor with CoolThreads technology offers up to eight 4-way multithreaded cores. # Typical processor power consumption of 72 watts, delivering 32 simultaneous threads. it's 2-u, green and starts at under $8000. If you are running a threaded app like apache; you may need to buy a lot of extra equipment to load test it. // George -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator < http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From george at galis.org Thu Apr 13 00:54:35 2006 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:54:35 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Shell Newbie In-Reply-To: <0001591A-4E04-4AC8-ADD0-75DBA598A4A3@lesmuug.org> References: <1cac28080604120658r690c6061qcd2334820b3190ba@mail.gmail.com> <20060412145643.GI807@ayvali.org> <0001591A-4E04-4AC8-ADD0-75DBA598A4A3@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: <20060413045435.GK27738@sta.duo> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 12:02:57PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: >Hi Huy, > >On Apr 12, 2006, at 10:56 AM, N.J. Thomas wrote: > >> /bin/sh can sometimes be a pain, but the gains in being able to run >> your >> script on practically any Unix machine anywhere are well worth it. > >I'm going to loudly echo that using straight /bin/sh is key to near >absolute portability. yeah, /bin/sh is best for scripts (ash is closest in Linux, if you need to check compat there); zsh rocks if you like the bash bells and whistles. for me it's ksh on netbsd; but since I cannot get the FreeBSD ksh to work for beans; I use zsh or tcsh there, even though *csh is poison! >That stated however, I'm a developer who works with Python by choice, >so my philosophy on shell scripting is that if the script gets too >complicated, it's a 'program', and best to use a real programming- >oriented language, (Python, Perl, or to stick to UNIX culture- C, C++). Yo IkE, I was needing to ask you about python advocacy... any comments on using it vs php for web apps? // George -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator < http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From kacanski_s at yahoo.com Thu Apr 13 09:26:28 2006 From: kacanski_s at yahoo.com (Aleksandar Kacanski) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 06:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] VPNC Message-ID: <20060413132628.49446.qmail@web53608.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I am using vpnc (vpnc-wrapper) on my laptop Fbsd 6.0 current. I am getting connected to Cisco VPN but adding network and routing info is not working correctly. I tried to manually add/delete routes but no go... Anyone had similar experiences ... Thanks much, /s Aleksandar (Sasha) Kacanski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ike at lesmuug.org Thu Apr 13 12:10:52 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:10:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Anyone have a Verizon DSL Modem? Message-ID: Hi All, Somewhat off-topic, but I need Help! I'm emailing because my girlfriend's Verizon DSL router died- and I'm looking to replace it fast. If you have any old DSL modem (or router, but that's not totally necessary) from your closet or drawer that does PPPOE it would rock, I can take care of figuring out how to use the thing. Thanks! Best, .ike From dan at langille.org Thu Apr 13 13:46:10 2006 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:46:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan anyone? Message-ID: <443E5622.2296.1A8AF99C@dan.langille.org> What's up? None of you are coming? :( What's the matter? Beer not good enough? ;) -- Dan Langille : Software Developer looking for work my resume: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php From driodeiros at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 14:11:32 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:11:32 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks Message-ID: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> Hi there, My company uses a proprietary software for keeping track of the hours we spend in the projects. It is basically a web application that allows you to keep track of the hours you spend in every project. The tool is called proworkflow and it runs in windows. I don't quite understand why we are using that tool since 90% of our machines run UNIX. I see interesting and necessary to keep track of the time you spent in your stuff. I just I don't like the tool and I would like to have much more flexibility. I would like for example to be able to interact with my todo list from the console without having to use a browser. My questions are: - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? Thanks in advance, David From njt at ayvali.org Thu Apr 13 14:23:06 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:23:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> * David Rio Deiros [2006-04-13 11:11:32 -0700]: > - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? > - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? We are evaluating time-tracking packages for work. What we've come up with so far: - some people in our office use RT, which has a basic "time worked" and "time left" field for each ticket -- no one that I know uses this feature however (time tracking is not RT's primary function) - some people in our office use Eventum; it's time tracking system has more features than RT's (on the whole, it seems to be more project management oriented than RT) but I don't have much experience with it - Some people in our office use AllNetic's time tracker and swear by it. I've seen them use it, and it is very useful and looks to be the best of the lot -- but it only runs on Windows and is not open source Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From ike at lesmuug.org Thu Apr 13 14:34:41 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:34:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: Hi David, All, On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:23 PM, N.J. Thomas wrote: > * David Rio Deiros [2006-04-13 11:11:32 -0700]: >> - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? >> - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? > > We are evaluating time-tracking packages for work. What we've come up > with so far: > > - some people in our office use RT, which has a basic "time > worked" > and "time left" field for each ticket -- no one that I know uses > this feature however (time tracking is not RT's primary > function) I've used RT extensively in the past and came to loathe it. Thing is, I loathed the tasks surrounding *what* we used RT for, not the software itself- a syndrome that seems to be common with software of this type. Just a quickie .02? Rocket, .ike From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 13 14:42:29 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (Dru) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <20060413144125.M541@dru.domain.org> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, N.J. Thomas wrote: > * David Rio Deiros [2006-04-13 11:11:32 -0700]: >> - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? >> - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? Ignore this if you hate KDE, but we've had good luck with karm: http://pim.kde.org/components/karm.php Dru From pete at nomadlogic.org Thu Apr 13 14:48:59 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413144125.M541@dru.domain.org> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060413144125.M541@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <51717.160.33.20.11.1144954139.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, N.J. Thomas wrote: > >> * David Rio Deiros [2006-04-13 11:11:32 -0700]: >>> - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? >>> - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? > > > Ignore this if you hate KDE, but we've had good luck with karm: > > http://pim.kde.org/components/karm.php > thanks Dru! how did you know i was looking for something like this that'll work with korganizer ;) -pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From spork at bway.net Thu Apr 13 17:48:27 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <51717.160.33.20.11.1144954139.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060413144125.M541@dru.domain.org> <51717.160.33.20.11.1144954139.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Peter Wright wrote: >> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, N.J. Thomas wrote: >> >>> * David Rio Deiros [2006-04-13 11:11:32 -0700]: >>>> - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? >>>> - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? >> >> Ignore this if you hate KDE, but we've had good luck with karm: >> >> http://pim.kde.org/components/karm.php >> > thanks Dru! how did you know i was looking for something like this > that'll work with korganizer ;) Veering off on a tangent here... Has anyone successfully built KDE recently on OS-X (10.4) using Fink? I need to do some testing with korganizer and Kolab. My last FreeBSD desktop recently became a firewall when the old firewall box died. The bulk of the KDE mess builds, but everything bombs out when it starts trying to build some audio/sound junk (that I don't need or want). I'm no fink/apt guru... Thanks, Charles > -pete > > > -- > ~~oO00Oo~~ > Peter Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > www.nomadlogic.org/~pete > 310.869.9459 > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From okan at demirmen.com Thu Apr 13 17:55:58 2006 From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:55:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDCan anyone? In-Reply-To: <443E5622.2296.1A8AF99C@dan.langille.org> References: <443E5622.2296.1A8AF99C@dan.langille.org> Message-ID: <20060413215558.GA10545@clam.khaoz.org> On Thu 2006.04.13 at 13:46 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > What's up? None of you are coming? > > :( > > What's the matter? Beer not good enough? ;) i'm sure there are plenty of excuses to go around, but i'll be in the mist of moving back nyc - can't swing bsdcan this year. everyone else, have fun. cheers, okan From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Thu Apr 13 19:20:48 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:20:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <5C4DE742-5D35-4C1D-BF18-16E4E7706E02@2xlp.com> On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:11 PM, David Rio Deiros wrote: > Hi there, > > My company uses a proprietary software for keeping track of the > hours we spend in the projects. > > It is basically a web application that allows you to keep track > of the hours you spend in every project. The tool is called > proworkflow and it runs in windows. I don't quite understand > why we are using that tool since 90% of our machines run UNIX. > > I see interesting and necessary to keep track of the time you > spent in your stuff. I just I don't like the tool and I would > like to have much more flexibility. I would like for example > to be able to interact with my todo list from the console without > having to use a browser. > > My questions are: > > - how do you track your hours? what software do you use? > - do you know any open source software I should evaluate? i've heard good stuff about this: http://www.secondsite.biz/ not open source - its a pay service - but it does a lot and isn't that pricey. its web2.0, so that means an api ( which you could use curl in a console with ) plus it handles backups and all that. also means they maintain it, so all you do is pay them once a month -- to me, thats better than installing and updating open source stuff. From lists at genoverly.net Thu Apr 13 19:31:13 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:31:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <5C4DE742-5D35-4C1D-BF18-16E4E7706E02@2xlp.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <5C4DE742-5D35-4C1D-BF18-16E4E7706E02@2xlp.com> Message-ID: <20060413193113.61d86de2@wit.genoverly.home> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:20:48 -0400 Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > so all you do is pay them once a month > -- to me, thats better than installing and updating open source stuff. I'm a little dazed.. that was a bizarre thing to say on a BSD user group mailing list.. no reply necessary, maybe I just need a beer. -- Michael From nycbug at cyth.net Thu Apr 13 19:48:57 2006 From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:47:57 -0401 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413193113.61d86de2@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <5C4DE742-5D35-4C1D-BF18-16E4E7706E02@2xlp.com> <20060413193113.61d86de2@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <20060413234820.GB23843@syntax.cyth.net> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 07:31:13PM -0400, michael wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:20:48 -0400 > Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > > so all you do is pay them once a month > > -- to me, thats better than installing and updating open source stuff. > > I'm a little dazed.. that was a bizarre thing to say on a BSD user group > mailing list.. no reply necessary, maybe I just need a beer. Hey, if it does the job and does it well... -Ray- From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Thu Apr 13 20:20:51 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:20:51 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060413193113.61d86de2@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <5C4DE742-5D35-4C1D-BF18-16E4E7706E02@2xlp.com> <20060413193113.61d86de2@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2006, at 7:31 PM, michael wrote: > I'm a little dazed.. that was a bizarre thing to say on a BSD user > group > mailing list.. no reply necessary, maybe I just need a beer. yeah, it is a completely bizarre thing to say at first glance... but look at it this way - you can spend 10 hours setting up a time tracking system, creating a distributed backup system, and setting up a bunch of cron jobs to keep things in sync or you can pay someone $40 to do that, and spend 9hours writing FOSS code ( maybe something that automagically does distributed backups and replaces the need to pay someone $40 ) the FOSS solutions are great when it comes to code and features - but there's something to be said about paying someone to deal with the headaches like backup/failsafe and maintenance. do you want something to go wrong in your office, and have people jumping all over you non stop 'when will this be fixed?' , 'this is broken again!', 'hey, i'm having problems with the..." etc. i've been there. it sucks. warning, some of you might hate this paragraph: also, a lot of the web2.0 pay apps are funding open source development too. i'm not a fan of Rails, but if people weren't paying for BaseCamp, it probably wouldn't exist. so many perl , ruby, and increasingly python, modules and frameworks are code that was in some pay-app, and abstracted for general use. From driodeiros at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 21:29:36 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:29:36 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 02:34:41PM -0400, Isaac Levy wrote: > Hi David, All, > > On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:23 PM, N.J. Thomas wrote: > > >* David Rio Deiros [2006-04-13 11:11:32 -0700]: > >>- how do you track your hours? what software do you use? > >>- do you know any open source software I should evaluate? > > > >We are evaluating time-tracking packages for work. What we've come up > >with so far: > > > > - some people in our office use RT, which has a basic "time > >worked" > > and "time left" field for each ticket -- no one that I know uses > > this feature however (time tracking is not RT's primary > >function) > > I've used RT extensively in the past and came to loathe it. > Thing is, I loathed the tasks surrounding *what* we used RT for, not > the software itself- a syndrome that seems to be common with software > of this type. Hi, Thanks for the answers. I agree with Isaac. Same thing happends to me. I may implement something myself. And that leads me to: As I said I would like to be able to use the tracking system from the shell (bash in my case). Bash has a feature (and most other shells) that allows you to use the tab key to iterate over a list of "objects" depending the context where you are. I don't know if there is any way to tell bash to add more lists/objects. Example: $ track_time project_name task /* * The system would launch the proper actions when you hit enter. * here also you could iterate over all the projects and tasks for * every project */ Probably the only way to do it is patching the bash shell itself. Which is, IMHO, an interesting project. Adding this to bash not only would be useful to interact with the time tracking system but with other type of applications. The patch would also allow bash to extend the object-iteration list over new applications via the .bashrc. Does this maybe already exist? What do you guys think? Thanks, David From mspitzer at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 01:38:48 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:38:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604132238v34710744nc1645091a868a7b4@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/06, David Rio Deiros wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks for the answers. > > I agree with Isaac. Same thing happends to me. Just be glad you do not need to use remidy. > > I may implement something myself. And that leads me to: > > As I said I would like to be able to use the tracking system from the shell > (bash in my case). Bash has a feature (and most other shells) that allows > you to use the tab key to iterate over a list of "objects" depending the context > where you are. I don't know if there is any way to tell bash to add more > lists/objects. Example: > > $ track_time project_name task > /* > * The system would launch the proper actions when you hit enter. > * here also you could iterate over all the projects and tasks for > * every project > */ > > Probably the only way to do it is patching the bash shell itself. > Which is, IMHO, an interesting project. > > Adding this to bash not only would be useful to interact with the time > tracking system but with other type of applications. The patch would also > allow bash to extend the object-iteration list over new applications via > the .bashrc. Does this maybe already exist? > > What do you guys think? yes it is, but ... // I read you are suposed to say something nice first 1: I think it would not get into the bash source tree, so you would own the patch forever. ( I do not know 2: a curses based app would do fine, take a look at cscope for a good curses. And it would be avalable for people who do not use bash, hint ;-). Or you could go all mh on it and do it as a bunch of executables. 3: bash is kinda big already. and this is not a shell core function. 4: have you given any thought what, if any, ticketing/project management ystems this would work with, and how? or would it be stand alone? marc > > Thanks, > David > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From stucchi at willystudios.com Fri Apr 14 04:31:50 2006 From: stucchi at willystudios.com (Massimiliano Stucchi) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:31:50 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <9809DBE2-F87A-48E7-9800-D7E100364479@2xlp.com> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> <20060411072958.GC8706@willystudios.com> <9809DBE2-F87A-48E7-9800-D7E100364479@2xlp.com> Message-ID: <20060414083150.GX8706@willystudios.com> On 110406, 11:15, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > On Apr 11, 2006, at 3:29 AM, Massimiliano Stucchi wrote: > > >FreeSBIE > > and it does exist somewhere > > that looks like a neat project, and like it fits the specs exactly Yep ! Stay tuned for the 2.0 Release, coming out approximately a few days after 6.1 ! :) For your preorders: http://www.eurobsdmall.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/80 Ciaooo ! -- Massimiliano Stucchi WillyStudios.com stucchi at willystudios.com Http://www.willystudios.com/max/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eksffa at freebsdbrasil.com.br Fri Apr 14 05:10:40 2006 From: eksffa at freebsdbrasil.com.br (Patrick Tracanelli) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 06:10:40 -0300 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <20060414083150.GX8706@willystudios.com> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> <20060411072958.GC8706@willystudios.com> <9809DBE2-F87A-48E7-9800-D7E100364479@2xlp.com> <20060414083150.GX8706@willystudios.com> Message-ID: <443F6710.5010103@freebsdbrasil.com.br> If it gets to be Open Source (Linux or BSD) what do you think about the GUI enviroment? Will it end up on Xorg? And what about the applications? Lets think of a project, we have 128MB RAM and 512MB on Flash Card, what would you add to this system? Maybe we can set a experimental system before the OLPC hardware is ready. I have access to this kind of hardware: http://www.fic.com.br/img/FIC.jpg http://www.fic.com.br/img/Thin_Traseira2.jpg Its specification: Processor: AMD Geode 266MHz single chip Board Chipset: National Semiconductors SC2200 Memory: 128 DRAM Storage: any Flash (I can test with a 512MB one just like OLPC proposes) Video: SVGA 4MB 640 x 480 / 800 x 600 / 1024 x 768 @ 60Hz / 72Hz (I am not sure about the chipset yet, probably sis. Audio: LM 4546 Onboard LAN: National DP83815 / DP83816 It is somehow similar to OLPC's hardware specs. But, what would we put in there? Which office applications? I dont think 128 is good for OpenOffice plus the system, plus XOrg, etc... Would we have the software options good enough to this on the open source world? Which ones would it be? mplayer? :/ xmms? o_O, well well... this would be a tricky exercise... -- Patrick Tracanelli FreeBSD Brasil LTDA. (31) 3281-9633 / 3281-3547 316601 at sip.freebsdbrasil.com.br http://www.freebsdbrasil.com.br "Long live Hanin Elias, Kim Deal!" From ike at lesmuug.org Fri Apr 14 08:57:34 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:57:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA In-Reply-To: <30779-72499@sneakemail.com> References: <30779-72499@sneakemail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Yes, it's this old zombie of a thread- and I'm here to finish it off now, once and for all. :) On Jan 18, 2006, at 4:54 PM, David Fox wrote: > Isaac Levy ike-at-lesmuug.org |NYC*BUG| wrote: >> From the FreeBSD side of the problem: >> FreeBSD CURRENT works properly, the driver had some bugs fixed in >> December. This means that hopefully by late Feburary, we'll see the >> driver hit STABLE. > > Hm... :) We can only hope. ;) I'm going to try to pull the driver > CURRENT over to RELEASE. :P That oughtta be good for some fun. ;) Yesterday, FreeBSD 6.1-RC1 became available, and the '3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP' SATA RAID card is now flawlessly supported by FreeBSD (with SMP, with ACPI, etc... no gotchas found so far). The twa driver is alive and fixed! http://www.freebsd.org/where.html#helptest Additionally, the 3ware cli management tools for FreeBSD seem to be working perfectly. (They are labeled as working with FreeBSD 5.3). So with that, I'm very pleased- after some testing, I'll be *finally* rolling these cards into boxes for use! Thanks to everyone who helped me on this thread, this was a fairly painful journey. Below is the working dmesg, for those curious. Best, .ike -- Copyright (c) 1992-2006 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 6.1-RC #0: Thu Apr 13 17:03:51 EDT 2006 ike at greygoose.mob.lan:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DIVERSAFORM_NET-3-SMP acpi_alloc_wakeup_handler: can't alloc wake memory Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.20GHz (3200.13-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0xf43 Stepping = 3 Features=0xbfebfbff Features2=0x641d> AMD Features=0x20100000 Hyperthreading: 2 logical CPUs real memory = 3623288832 (3455 MB) avail memory = 3546267648 (3381 MB) ACPI APIC Table: FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID: 0 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID: 1 ioapic0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard ioapic1 irqs 24-47 on motherboard kbd1 at kbdmux0 npx0: [FAST] npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface acpi0: on motherboard acpi0: Power Button (fixed) Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000 acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x1008-0x100b on acpi0 cpu0: on acpi0 acpi_throttle0: on cpu0 cpu1: on acpi0 acpi_throttle1: on cpu1 acpi_throttle1: failed to attach P_CNT device_attach: acpi_throttle1 attach returned 6 pcib0: port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: irq 16 at device 2.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 bge0: mem 0xdd100000-0xdd10ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 miibus0: on bge0 brgphy0: on miibus0 brgphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseTX, 1000baseTX-FDX, auto bge0: Ethernet address: 00:e0:81:34:bf:8c pcib2: irq 16 at device 3.0 on pci0 pci2: on pcib2 bge1: mem 0xdd200000-0xdd20ffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci2 miibus1: on bge1 brgphy1: on miibus1 brgphy1: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseTX, 1000baseTX-FDX, auto bge1: Ethernet address: 00:e0:81:34:bf:8d pcib3: at device 28.0 on pci0 pci3: on pcib3 3ware device driver for 9000 series storage controllers, version: 3.60.02.012 twa0: <3ware 9000 series Storage Controller> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem 0xdd300000-0xdd3000ff,0xdf800000-0xdfffffff irq 25 at device 6.0 on pci3 twa0: [FAST] twa0: INFO: (0x15: 0x1300): Controller details:: Model 9500S-4LP, 4 ports, Firmware FE9X 2.08.00.006, BIOS BE9X 2.03.01.052 uhci0: port 0x1400-0x141f irq 16 at device 29.0 on pci0 uhci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered uhci1: port 0x1420-0x143f irq 19 at device 29.1 on pci0 uhci1: [GIANT-LOCKED] usb1: on uhci1 usb1: USB revision 1.0 uhub1: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered pci0: at device 29.4 (no driver attached) pci0: at device 29.5 (no driver attached) ehci0: mem 0xdd000400-0xdd0007ff irq 23 at device 29.7 on pci0 ehci0: [GIANT-LOCKED] usb2: EHCI version 1.0 usb2: companion controllers, 2 ports each: usb0 usb1 usb2: on ehci0 usb2: USB revision 2.0 uhub2: Intel EHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub2: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered pcib4: at device 30.0 on pci0 pci4: on pcib4 pci4: at device 3.0 (no driver attached) isab0: at device 31.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0x1460-0x146f at device 31.1 on pci0 ata0: on atapci0 ata1: on atapci0 pci0: at device 31.3 (no driver attached) acpi_button0: on acpi0 atkbdc0: port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 atkbd0: irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] sio0: <16550A-compatible COM port> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0 sio0: type 16550A fdc0: port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on acpi0 fdc0: [FAST] fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 ppc0: port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on acpi0 ppc0: Generic chipset (EPP/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode ppbus0: on ppc0 plip0: on ppbus0 lpt0: on ppbus0 lpt0: Interrupt-driven port ppi0: on ppbus0 pmtimer0 on isa0 orm0: at iomem 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xc97ff on isa0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 sio1: port may not be enabled vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec acd0: CDROM at ata1-master PIO4 da0 at twa0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 da0: Fixed Direct Access SCSI-3 device da0: 100.000MB/s transfers da0: 76283MB (156227584 512 byte sectors: 255H 63S/T 9724C) SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/da0s1a -- From mlandman at face2interface.com Fri Apr 14 09:19:29 2006 From: mlandman at face2interface.com (Marty Landman) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:19:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] (no subject) Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20060414091927.03f75660@face2interface.com> -- Marty Landman, Face 2 Interface Inc. 845-679-9387 Free Database Search App: http://face2interface.com/Products/FormATable.shtml Web Installed Formmail: http://face2interface.com/formINSTal From lists at genoverly.net Fri Apr 14 09:20:45 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:20:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA In-Reply-To: References: <30779-72499@sneakemail.com> Message-ID: <20060414092045.4ab6df9e@wit.genoverly.home> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:57:34 -0400 Isaac Levy wrote: > Thanks to everyone who helped me on this thread, this was a fairly > painful journey. Below is the working dmesg, for those curious. Patientence paid off, congratulations. -- Michael From ike at lesmuug.org Fri Apr 14 09:29:23 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:29:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] 2x 3Ware Escalade 9500S-4LP SATA In-Reply-To: <20060414092045.4ab6df9e@wit.genoverly.home> References: <30779-72499@sneakemail.com> <20060414092045.4ab6df9e@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <3FF19B7D-C3C7-41E9-8756-0D7AA211DCB8@lesmuug.org> Hi MW, On Apr 14, 2006, at 9:20 AM, michael wrote: >> Thanks to everyone who helped me on this thread, this was a fairly >> painful journey. Below is the working dmesg, for those curious. > > Patientence paid off, congratulations. Don't know if it was in any way patience, more like being far too busy for too long! (So the word lazy doesn't apply, but it's closer in spirit... :) Thanks again to everyone for all the help! Rocket- .ike From njt at ayvali.org Fri Apr 14 13:13:16 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:13:16 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: References: <20060411204839.GA807@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <20060414171316.GA18108@ayvali.org> * [2006-04-11 17:26:53 -0400]: > * what supervisor do you have on 6506. WS-X6K-SUP1A-2GE =-( > * do you have a 'flat' network or do you have servers segmented into > vlans, and different IP blocks on each vlan? It's flat. > * 2821 can do 15mbps just fine, and can handle full tables fine. Just to clarify, if we transit with three 3 Tier1 ISPs: - How big the will the full tables be? - Can 2821 handle all 3? - Do we need to handle full tables? (we have PA space from only one of the three ISPs, the other two are for bandwidth/redundancy purposes only) thanks, Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From alex at pilosoft.com Fri Apr 14 13:45:48 2006 From: alex at pilosoft.com (alex at pilosoft.com) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] breaking up a big cisco In-Reply-To: <20060414171316.GA18108@ayvali.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, N.J. Thomas wrote: > * [2006-04-11 17:26:53 -0400]: > > * what supervisor do you have on 6506. > > WS-X6K-SUP1A-2GE =-( Which MSFC is it? MSFC1/PFC1 or MSFC2? Even sup1 with msfc2 is still acceptable. I would probably advise to buy a 6506 with sup2. Best-case performance of 2821 (theoretical limit) is 170kpps. Practically, roughly 25kpps with some services enabled. You should be good doing ~20mbit through it, as long as its not a ddos trafic. compare with: msfc1/pfc1 is wire-rate (15mpps) as long as you don't exceed the TCAM size. (In other words, as long as its not ddos traffic). msfc2 is wire-rate, period. > > * do you have a 'flat' network or do you have servers segmented into > > vlans, and different IP blocks on each vlan? > > It's flat. > > > * 2821 can do 15mbps just fine, and can handle full tables fine. > > Just to clarify, if we transit with three 3 Tier1 ISPs: > > - How big the will the full tables be? > - Can 2821 handle all 3? yes, 2821 w/256M will handle 3 full tables OK. > - Do we need to handle full tables? (we have PA space from only one > of the three ISPs, the other two are for bandwidth/redundancy > purposes only) You should. In case there's a partial outage of some sorts on a single ISP, you will receive the missing routes from your other ISP. -alex From george at galis.org Fri Apr 14 14:23:59 2006 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:23:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060414182359.GA19326@sta.duo> On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 06:29:36PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: >Adding this to bash not only would be useful to interact with the time >tracking system but with other type of applications. The patch would also >allow bash to extend the object-iteration list over new applications via >the .bashrc. Does this maybe already exist? > >What do you guys think? Well I don't only use bash, zsh and ksh are pretty regular too. I do it like this $ . ~/projectname/time start reply to nycbug, check mail, checkout repo which contains, at the top invocation="$1" timesheet_file="~/projectname/time" shift message="$*" then the "time" file does a case function, expecting start, stop or something else for usage. on start, it sets my env (like reply address which muttrc eats up) and maybe "ssh-add some.id_rsa", then date "+%D %r START $message" >>$timesheet_file cd `dirname $timesheet_file` muttrcmodify.sh work (muttrcmodify.sh is a script to do various stuff like change the mailboxes I watch on the .muttrc) . ~/projectname/time stop works in a similar way. The whole process has been working great for command line time keeping. Only PITA is cutting and pasting start, stop and descriptions into an invoice template. Don't forget to "return" after the code or your shell will process your time stamps! You want to source the file to inherit the env in your existing shell, "exit" would exit you shell, don't do that. // George -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator < http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From lists at stringsutils.com Fri Apr 14 14:58:37 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:58:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Raid 5 or 10 with 8 drives? Message-ID: I have a machine with 8 drives and considering the two following configurations: 6 drives in RAID 10 2 Hot spares or 5 drives RAID 5 2 drives RAID 1 1 Hot spare The machine will be used for NFS storage for IMAP/POP (mail machines). Likely will also get a simmilar machine for database in the near future. Which of the two above should perform better? The one with the RAID 5 has the appeal of more space but only if the speed will be comparable. From tillman at seekingfire.com Fri Apr 14 14:59:20 2006 From: tillman at seekingfire.com (Tillman Hodgson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:59:20 -0600 Subject: [nycbug-talk] distributed shell In-Reply-To: References: <5004.160.33.20.11.1144768215.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20060411174110.GJ29268@seekingfire.com> <37782.160.33.20.11.1144778068.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060414185920.GD29268@seekingfire.com> On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 11:17:20AM -0700, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > I tried out ClusterIt yesterday. It's pretty damned nice, way more > reliable than fanout/fanterm. My only gripe is the documentation. > When using something other than rsh, you need to set a bunch of > environment variables in order to use ClusterIt, and you have to read > the man page for each command to find out what those environment > variables are. That's party a historical thing: It's modeled after PSSP on AIX, which basically assumes a Kerberos rsh is setup. When that assumption happens to be true the defaults work fairly well. > If it saves anyone the trouble, here's the ones I had to set in order > to get what I wanted working (over ssh): > > RCMD_CMD=ssh > RLOGIN_CMD=ssh Very handy, thanks :-) -T -- "Many people are afraid of freedom. They are conditioned to be afraid of it." -- Herbert Marcuse, New York Times, 27/10/1968 From lists at stringsutils.com Fri Apr 14 15:10:56 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:10:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <5C4DE742-5D35-4C1D-BF18-16E4E7706E02@2xlp.com> <20060413193113.61d86de2@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: Jonathan Vanasco writes: > the FOSS solutions are great when it comes to code and features - but > there's something to be said about paying someone to deal with the > headaches like backup/failsafe and maintenance. ... like.. you don't have control of the data.. and if the company goes out of business you could loose it all. That by far is my biggest issue with solutions hosted by others. > do you want something to go wrong in your office, and have people > jumping all over you non stop 'when will this be fixed?' That is nothing compared to "the company we used went out of business and we can't get ANY of the data you entered" Does that service you mentioned offers a way to get all your data out in some way shape or form? From lists at stringsutils.com Fri Apr 14 15:13:10 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:13:10 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? References: <8c50a3c30604110805t75c06ef2r693faccb7e73b9ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Marc Spitzer writes: > would sockstat do, freebsd yes not sure about the rest. Unfortunately no. All it will tell you is what machines are connected. It won't help determinining which particular machine is connected to a particular nfsd. From driodeiros at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 15:59:07 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:59:07 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060414182359.GA19326@sta.duo> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060414182359.GA19326@sta.duo> Message-ID: <20060414195907.GA5116@milhouse.digitaria.com> On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 02:23:59PM -0400, George Georgalis wrote: > On Thu, Apr 13, 2006 at 06:29:36PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > >Adding this to bash not only would be useful to interact with the time > >tracking system but with other type of applications. The patch would also > >allow bash to extend the object-iteration list over new applications via > >the .bashrc. Does this maybe already exist? > > > >What do you guys think? > > Well I don't only use bash, zsh and ksh are pretty regular too. > I do it like this > > $ . ~/projectname/time start reply to nycbug, check mail, checkout repo > > which contains, at the top > > invocation="$1" > timesheet_file="~/projectname/time" > shift > message="$*" > > then the "time" file does a case function, expecting start, stop > or something else for usage. on start, it sets my env (like reply > address which muttrc eats up) and maybe "ssh-add some.id_rsa", > then > > date "+%D %r START $message" >>$timesheet_file > cd `dirname $timesheet_file` > muttrcmodify.sh work > > (muttrcmodify.sh is a script to do various stuff like change the > mailboxes I watch on the .muttrc) > > . ~/projectname/time stop > > works in a similar way. The whole process has been working great > for command line time keeping. Only PITA is cutting and pasting > start, stop and descriptions into an invoice template. > > Don't forget to "return" after the code or your shell will process > your time stamps! You want to source the file to inherit the env > in your existing shell, "exit" would exit you shell, don't do > that. George, This is pretty cool. Flexible and fast. I made add some extra code to insert the stuff in a database. Thanks, David -- "If money is your hope for independence you will never have it. The only real security that a man will have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience, and ability." From mspitzer at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 16:52:32 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:52:32 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: <8c50a3c30604110805t75c06ef2r693faccb7e73b9ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604141352w6f3560ag2680c02ac4a3692d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Marc Spitzer writes: > > > would sockstat do, freebsd yes not sure about the rest. > > Unfortunately no. All it will tell you is what machines are connected. > It won't help determinining which particular machine is connected to a > particular nfsd. > yes it will, if you run it on the server you will get the pid of the server proceess connected to client ip:port. I get the following fields: user command pid fd proto local address foreign address so you have pid and remote ip on one line, what is not to love? marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From george at galis.org Fri Apr 14 23:25:58 2006 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:25:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060414195907.GA5116@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060414182359.GA19326@sta.duo> <20060414195907.GA5116@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060415032558.GK19326@sta.duo> On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 12:59:07PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: >This is pretty cool. >Flexible and fast. I made add some extra code to insert the stuff >in a database. Thanks! if you come up with something to generate *.IIF files, let me know. ;) // George -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator < http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sat Apr 15 10:21:08 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:21:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Raid 5 or 10 with 8 drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <110B6270-7B4B-4583-8689-72D744CD581D@belovedarctos.com> Francisco, On Apr 14, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Which of the two above should perform better? > The one with the RAID 5 has the appeal of more space but only if > the speed > will be comparable. It depends on what kind of RAID card you have. I have found some of the cheapy dell RAID cards are built to run RAID5 fast and actually run RAID 10 as a concatenated instead of striped config. If you are using software I would go with RAID 10, since trying to figure out the xor bit on RAID 5 will impact your cpu during high disk usage. -Bjorn From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sat Apr 15 10:26:15 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:26:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <50BF0EEE-BC30-4EB8-9D35-C4E7D7DD98C7@belovedarctos.com> Francisco, On Apr 11, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I am basically trying to tie up the process ID from ps/top to a > particular > machine connecting to that particular nfsd daemon. lsof -i will show you daemons to ip:socket > I tried tcpdump, but that pretty much showed me all the nfs > clients. :-( You can filter tcpdump by ip (on nfs server): tcpdump src clientip -Bjorn From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 15 11:25:33 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:25:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Raid 5 or 10 with 8 drives? References: <110B6270-7B4B-4583-8689-72D744CD581D@belovedarctos.com> Message-ID: Bjorn Nelson writes: > It depends on what kind of RAID card you have. 3Ware 9550SX From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 15 11:33:39 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 11:33:39 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <50BF0EEE-BC30-4EB8-9D35-C4E7D7DD98C7@belovedarctos.com> Message-ID: Bjorn Nelson writes: > lsof -i > will show you daemons to ip:socket Doesn't seem to help much with nfs. lsof -i | egrep -i "nfsd|2049|" nfsd 415 root 3u IPv4 0xc7eb81cc 0t0 TCP *:nfsd (LISTEN) 2049 is the port nfsd uses. I have several machines connected to that nfs server doing work and the line above was the only thing returned. > You can filter tcpdump by ip (on nfs server): > tcpdump src clientip :-) If I knew the machine I wouldn't have a problem. That is what I am trying to determine. What machine/IP is connected to a particular nfsd process. From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 15:55:52 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:55:52 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: <20060411150242.GA44799@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <50BF0EEE-BC30-4EB8-9D35-C4E7D7DD98C7@belovedarctos.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604151255g343ec979p5cfafa81c7194dca@mail.gmail.com> On 4/15/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Bjorn Nelson writes: > > > lsof -i > > will show you daemons to ip:socket > > Doesn't seem to help much with nfs. > lsof -i | egrep -i "nfsd|2049|" > nfsd 415 root 3u IPv4 0xc7eb81cc 0t0 TCP *:nfsd (LISTEN) You may be trying to be too efficent. Run lsof -i or sockstat and dump the output to a text file and look at it with more and see what you see. then figure out how to grep for it. Lets look at this logicly, to solv this you need two peices of information: 1: a mapping of nfsd's to ip addresses 2: traffic summeries to see who is beating up your server answer: 1: lsof/sockstat 2: tcpdump + script to sumerize or look in ports for something that will summerize for you, bpgt might do that asumption: a process that is doing this will hang around for a while. marc > 2049 is the port nfsd uses. > I have several machines connected to that nfs server doing work and the line > above was the only thing returned. > > > You can filter tcpdump by ip (on nfs server): > > tcpdump src clientip > > :-) > If I knew the machine I wouldn't have a problem. > That is what I am trying to determine. > What machine/IP is connected to a particular nfsd process. > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 03:13:20 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:13:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <20060414195907.GA5116@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060414182359.GA19326@sta.duo> <20060414195907.GA5116@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604160013s68bf533bhad4202b956877d23@mail.gmail.com> I came across ledger in ports, it might be a good fit. there are some sample script for billing time to projects. marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 16 15:40:15 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:40:15 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? References: <8c50a3c30604110805t75c06ef2r693faccb7e73b9ad@mail.gmail.com> <8c50a3c30604141352w6f3560ag2680c02ac4a3692d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Marc Spitzer writes: > yes it will, if you run it on the server you will get the pid of the > server proceess connected to client ip:port. I get the following > fields: > user > command > pid > fd > proto > local address > foreign address I must be missing something. :-( I do sockstat | egrep "416|415|....|427"|less Where the dots represent the PIDs of the most heavily used nfsd processes. Only one that comes up is: root nfsd 415 3 tcp4 *:2049 *:* I also tried sockstat |grep "2049" and get exactly the same line. However tcpdump returns lines such as: 15:36:.. IP .1759450495 > .nfs: 176 lookup [|nfs] I am a tcpdump newbie.. Am I missing a port in that line? It seems as if sockstat doesn't report the communication going on in nfs. From lists at genoverly.net Sun Apr 16 15:50:55 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:50:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail & spamd Message-ID: <20060416155055.3107eb97@wit.genoverly.home> gmail has always been a moving target for me and my OpenBSD spamd. I read a little snippet on misc@ that seems to help. It looks like SPF in TXT records in DNS are getting popular. gmail lists their smtp servers in that record so.. $ dig gmail.com TXT +short | tr "\ " "\n" | \ grep ^ip4: | cut -d: -f2 > /mywhite_gmail ..will put all gmail mail servers out to a file. I can then add that table my pf rules. I could probably add all the mail giants to this table too. ..aside from allowing all gmail mail into my server.. [grin] Is there any danger in this? -- Michael From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 18:42:46 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:42:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: References: <8c50a3c30604110805t75c06ef2r693faccb7e73b9ad@mail.gmail.com> <8c50a3c30604141352w6f3560ag2680c02ac4a3692d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604161542y6d57f777h230367eec7df5a41@mail.gmail.com> On 4/16/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Marc Spitzer writes: > > > yes it will, if you run it on the server you will get the pid of the > > server proceess connected to client ip:port. I get the following > > fields: > > user > > command > > pid > > fd > > proto > > local address > > foreign address > > I must be missing something. :-( > > I do > sockstat | egrep "416|415|....|427"|less try "sockstat|less" and see what happens. If I remember correctly nfs mostly goes over udp not tcp > > Where the dots represent the PIDs of the most heavily used nfsd processes. > Only one that comes up is: > > root nfsd 415 3 tcp4 *:2049 *:* > > I also tried > sockstat |grep "2049" and get exactly the same line. > > However tcpdump returns lines such as: > 15:36:.. IP .1759450495 > .nfs: 176 lookup [|nfs] > > I am a tcpdump newbie.. Am I missing a port in that line? > Well I have not used it much recently my self. But here is what I would suggest: 1: capture data when the system has problems in a binary tcpdump file 2: capture a series of sockstat during the same time, no grep capture everything 3: look at both, write some scripts to summarize data 4: reread the tcpdump man page, -n is handy. > It seems as if sockstat doesn't report the communication going on in nfs. sockstat does not report communication going on, all it does is report the state of the sockets at the time it is run. marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From pete at nomadlogic.org Sun Apr 16 21:04:33 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] What client connected to nfsd? In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30604161542y6d57f777h230367eec7df5a41@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c50a3c30604110805t75c06ef2r693faccb7e73b9ad@mail.gmail.com> <8c50a3c30604141352w6f3560ag2680c02ac4a3692d@mail.gmail.com> <8c50a3c30604161542y6d57f777h230367eec7df5a41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50965.70.38.30.24.1145235873.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > On 4/16/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: >> Marc Spitzer writes: >> >> > yes it will, if you run it on the server you will get the pid of the >> > server proceess connected to client ip:port. I get the following >> > fields: >> > user >> > command >> > pid >> > fd >> > proto >> > local address >> > foreign address >> >> I must be missing something. :-( >> >> I do >> sockstat | egrep "416|415|....|427"|less > > try "sockstat|less" and see what happens. If I remember correctly nfs > mostly goes over udp not tcp > depends on clients. most nfsV3 clients default to tcp these day's, although that is not to say that you should not look for UDP traffic as well. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From lists at stringsutils.com Mon Apr 17 13:31:21 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:31:21 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] vmstat b column includes nfs stats? Message-ID: Anyone knows by any chance, if the 'b' column of vmstat includes nfs? Trying to troubleshoot a problem. vmstat b column has high numbers (50 to 70), yet when I look at disk I/O with top, 'm' option, I see very little going on in the machine. The machine uses nfs heavily so I am thinking it may be i/o with the NFS server that is a problem. From lists at stringsutils.com Mon Apr 17 17:20:36 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:20:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] vmstat b column includes nfs stats? References: Message-ID: Francisco Reyes writes: > Anyone knows by any chance, if the 'b' column of vmstat includes nfs? Found the answer. The 'b' column in vmstat DOES include nfs mounts. The problem was that the network cards we at half-duplex. Once I set them straight to full, vmstat 'b' column went down to normal levels. From driodeiros at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 02:59:41 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:59:41 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] time you spend in your tasks In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30604160013s68bf533bhad4202b956877d23@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060413181132.GA1905@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060413182305.GR807@ayvali.org> <20060414012936.GA18449@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060414182359.GA19326@sta.duo> <20060414195907.GA5116@milhouse.digitaria.com> <8c50a3c30604160013s68bf533bhad4202b956877d23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060418065941.GA7289@milhouse.is04607.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2006 at 03:13:20AM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote: > I came across ledger in ports, it might be a good fit. there are some > sample script for billing time to projects. Thanks Marc. It looks very promising. I like this in the description: "What it does offer is a double-entry accounting ledger with all the flexibility and muscle of its modern day cousins, without any of the fat." David From joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com Fri Apr 21 02:24:23 2006 From: joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com (Josh McCormack) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:24:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD on the <$100 laptop? In-Reply-To: <443F6710.5010103@freebsdbrasil.com.br> References: <5E1D1632-7418-498F-94C4-B09A786D15D1@lesmuug.org> <20060410155215.GA36294@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <509E28BF-E4EE-45EC-8454-D317604C5302@2xlp.com> <20060411072958.GC8706@willystudios.com> <9809DBE2-F87A-48E7-9800-D7E100364479@2xlp.com> <20060414083150.GX8706@willystudios.com> <443F6710.5010103@freebsdbrasil.com.br> Message-ID: Those specs are actually pretty good when compared to the ancient laptop (less than $100, btw) that I've been playing around with, running OpenBSD. I've written about it on my new OpenBSD blog, http://www.afterboot.com I desperately want to write more, but have been working like 18 hours a day for weeks and barely have time to sleep. :) soon...... Josh On 4/14/06, Patrick Tracanelli wrote: > If it gets to be Open Source (Linux or BSD) what do you think about the > GUI enviroment? Will it end up on Xorg? And what about the applications? > > Lets think of a project, we have 128MB RAM and 512MB on Flash Card, what > would you add to this system? > > Maybe we can set a experimental system before the OLPC hardware is > ready. I have access to this kind of hardware: > > http://www.fic.com.br/img/FIC.jpg > http://www.fic.com.br/img/Thin_Traseira2.jpg > > Its specification: > > Processor: AMD Geode 266MHz single chip > Board Chipset: National Semiconductors SC2200 > Memory: 128 DRAM > Storage: any Flash (I can test with a 512MB one just like OLPC proposes) > Video: SVGA 4MB 640 x 480 / 800 x 600 / 1024 x 768 @ 60Hz / 72Hz (I am > not sure about the chipset yet, probably sis. > Audio: LM 4546 > Onboard LAN: National DP83815 / DP83816 > > It is somehow similar to OLPC's hardware specs. But, what would we put > in there? Which office applications? I dont think 128 is good for > OpenOffice plus the system, plus XOrg, etc... > > Would we have the software options good enough to this on the open > source world? Which ones would it be? mplayer? :/ xmms? o_O, well > well... this would be a tricky exercise... > > -- > Patrick Tracanelli > > FreeBSD Brasil LTDA. > (31) 3281-9633 / 3281-3547 > 316601 at sip.freebsdbrasil.com.br > http://www.freebsdbrasil.com.br > "Long live Hanin Elias, Kim Deal!" > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From lists at genoverly.net Fri Apr 21 08:19:24 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:19:24 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Building a FreeBSD Build System Message-ID: <20060421081924.1bcbdebf@wit.genoverly.home> Congrats to local NYCBUG member on publishing article. If you haven't seen it.. http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2006/04/13/freebsd-build-system.html Well done, Bjorn! -- Michael From bschonhorst at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 09:31:07 2006 From: bschonhorst at gmail.com (Brad Schonhorst) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:31:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Building a FreeBSD Build System In-Reply-To: <20060421081924.1bcbdebf@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060421081924.1bcbdebf@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <7708fd680604210631u25e48c60qb2161d8277386da7@mail.gmail.com> On 4/21/06, michael wrote: > Congrats to local NYCBUG member on publishing article. > If you haven't seen it.. > > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2006/04/13/freebsd-build-system.html > > Well done, Bjorn! > A friend of mine who knows nothing about BSD forwarded me the the link to the article. He found it on digg.com a technology related news site. Its great to see a nycbugger getting some good exposure! From george at sddi.net Fri Apr 21 12:05:12 2006 From: george at sddi.net (George R.) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:05:12 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] May 3 meeting location Message-ID: <444902B8.3050006@sddi.net> As you can see from our www site, we are not meeting at the Apple Store for the May 3 meeting. A third party VOIP/BLEC/etc 3rd party I deal with has a bar downtown at 111 Broadway where we will have a large backroom area. By then, there should be 2xt1's in there, plus all things we need. Plus full service for food and cocktails. The bar is called Suspenders, and it's in the basement of the Trinity building, right up the block from Wall Street. There will video conferencing capabilities at some point in the near future, so we could also use the space for getting some non-local speakers. Anyway, if you're curious to see the space, feel free to stop by and check out the backroom. Any comments are be directed to me or admin@ at our domain. George From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Fri Apr 21 19:39:46 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:39:46 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Building a FreeBSD Build System In-Reply-To: <7708fd680604210631u25e48c60qb2161d8277386da7@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060421081924.1bcbdebf@wit.genoverly.home> <7708fd680604210631u25e48c60qb2161d8277386da7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98D8E0B2-5528-46EC-B491-873C9653F090@belovedarctos.com> Michael and Brad, On Apr 21, 2006, at 9:31 AM, Brad Schonhorst wrote: > On 4/21/06, michael wrote: >> Congrats to local NYCBUG member on publishing article. >> If you haven't seen it.. >> >> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2006/04/13/freebsd-build-system.html >> >> Well done, Bjorn! >> > > A friend of mine who knows nothing about BSD forwarded me the the link > to the article. He found it on digg.com a technology related news > site. Its great to see a nycbugger getting some good exposure! Thanks for the congrats! It got mention in newsforge & bsdnews as well. I have to thank Dru for getting me in touch with the right people. Pretty neat stuff to see my article using O'Reilly's design guidelines. -Bjorn From lists at stringsutils.com Fri Apr 21 23:47:56 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:47:56 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing Message-ID: Soon to buy a couple of new server and wondering if we should get 4GB or 8GB. My first stop is trying to better understand memory utilization. Any suggested links? I have several machines simmilar machines to the functionality of one of the new servers (mail machine), the second new server will be a PostgreSQL database.. to host millions of records with about 250GB worth of data. From ike at lesmuug.org Sat Apr 22 11:44:13 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:44:13 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Francisco, First question: what OS do you plan to run? The key term here is 'PAE', for i386 systems, "The Physical Address Extension (PAE) capability of the Intel? Pentium Pro and later CPUs allows memory configurations of up to 64 gigabytes" (FreeBSD handbook). ***(Note- Upcoming meeting has Mickey speaking about PAE on OpenBSD)*** On Apr 21, 2006, at 11:47 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Soon to buy a couple of new server and wondering if we should get > 4GB or > 8GB. My first stop is trying to better understand memory utilization. From my experience with PAE on FreeBSD, it's currently an additional kernel compile, like SMP, http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ kernelconfig-config.html Section 8.4.1 It's not rocket science, and *seems* to be stable, but the machine I've used it on is NOT a heavy-lifter- (it simply runs Samba with TONS of files). Noteworthy- one process can only use up to 4GB of physical memory here. I'm not sure if this is a limitation of the processor, or the FreeBSD implementation. > > Any suggested links? > I have several machines simmilar machines to the functionality of > one of the > new servers (mail machine), the second new server will be a PostgreSQL > database.. to host millions of records with about 250GB worth of data. For FreeBSD, the handbook link above helps. For Other BSD os's, I hope others post urls... I'm curious too... Rocket- .ike From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 22 13:47:42 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:47:42 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: Message-ID: Isaac Levy writes: > First question: what OS do you plan to run? FreeBSD AMD64 on Opterons CPUs. > 'PAE', for i386 systems >From what I have read I need to use the AMD64 version if I want to see/use more than 4GB. > I've used it on is NOT a heavy-lifter- (it simply runs Samba with > TONS of files). Define tons? I have one mail machine and one database server I have to setup. The mail machines we usually have around 3 million files. From pete at nomadlogic.org Sat Apr 22 14:09:54 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:09:54 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 11:47:56PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Soon to buy a couple of new server and wondering if we should get 4GB or > 8GB. My first stop is trying to better understand memory utilization. > > Any suggested links? > I have several machines simmilar machines to the functionality of one of the > new servers (mail machine), the second new server will be a PostgreSQL > database.. to host millions of records with about 250GB worth of data. > the best i'd look for info on memory utilization in freebsd would be the McKusick/Neville-Neil design and implementation book. it's just a great text in general, and should help you get a handle on how FreeBSD in specific is going to utilize memory. what is the profile on queries you are going to running against the DB? are we looking at lot's of small queries, periodic quries on large data set's or something in between. i am in the process of building a large postgres server that is going to be doing data warehousing, we are thinking that we should be fine with 4gig's or RAM as we will not have many concurrent connections. if you are going to have many people hitting this thing, then yea i'd give it as much memory as practical and the fastest storage i can afford. as an aside, i have another postgres DB that we are running out of a memory FS. it's execellent, although took a bit of work on our end to architect a solution that would work this way. the database in the memfs partition does not persist between reboot's - it populates itself off an oracle server (and through some other methods) between reboots. it has been very successfull performance wise, although granted such a solution may not fit everyone's environment. HTH -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 22 15:33:37 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:33:37 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Pete Wright writes: > the best i'd look for info on memory utilization in freebsd would be the > McKusick/Neville-Neil design and implementation book. Althought that is a good long term plan I would settle for a good explanation of top's memory display. :-) I have found some, but not to the level I need. In short I am looking to answer "does this machine has enough memory for the amount of programs we are running it it.. and to leave a decent amount of memory for the OS to cache files". > text in general, and should help you get a handle on how FreeBSD in > specific is going to utilize memory. That is great to know.. but ultimately it comes down to.. does the machine has too much running on it. The first thing I look at is swap. If the machine is using tens of megabytes from swap and you see the swap getting used frequently in top.. that is a clear sign that machine has too many processes for the amount of RAM. > what is the profile on queries you are going to running against the > DB? I am looking to size two machines. One DB, one mail server. For the DB a large percent of the load will be writes. The app that will connect and the load programs are currently getting done and I don't have numbers yet.. However from the existing system (using mysql) that the new system will replace I see probably 90% + are writes with mostly relatively simple (but large) queries. Queries like "show me all the records that matchi this particular criteria and join a couple tables to expand codes". >are we looking at lot's of small queries,periodic quries on large > data set's or something in between. Lots of inserts. Unfrequent queries, but when they are done they will return very frequently large number of recores. As far as I can tell it will always be index access. > large postgres server that is going to be doing data warehousing, we are > thinking that we should be fine with 4gig's or RAM as we will not have > many concurrent connections. I am a bit undecided between going SATA or SCSI. To be more precise.. SATA 6 400GB disks on RAID 10 2 hot spares Net usable: 1.2TB raw (before filesystem) 8GB RAM 7.2K rpm disks SCSI 7 150GB disks on RAID5 1 hot spare Net usable: 900GB raw (before filesystem) 4 GB RAM 10K rpm disks There is also the 10K rpm SATA drives, but I don't think RAID5 with SATA may be good enough. >From what I am reading so far after 6 disks the performance between RAID10 and RAID5 is simmilar. > if you are going to have many people hitting this thing, then yea i'd > give it as much memory as practical and the fastest storage i can > afford. Found a link on postgresql performance and they actually claim that disk subsystem, them memory, then CPU is what matters.. Obviously as long as there is a minimal/acceptable amount of RAM to begin with. > as an aside, i have another postgres DB that we are running out of a > memory FS. Interesting. How big is the DB? Can't wait to the days when solid state drives become cheaper. :-) From ike at lesmuug.org Sat Apr 22 16:16:45 2006 From: ike at lesmuug.org (Isaac Levy) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:16:45 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E6B29E-2647-4CA4-AA2F-4BB83E719722@lesmuug.org> Hi Francisco, On Apr 22, 2006, at 1:47 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Isaac Levy writes: > >> First question: what OS do you plan to run? > > FreeBSD AMD64 on Opterons CPUs. Cool. > >> 'PAE', for i386 systems > > From what I have read I need to use the AMD64 version if I want to > see/use more than 4GB. >> I've used it on is NOT a heavy-lifter- (it simply runs Samba with >> TONS of files). > > Define tons? > I have one mail machine and one database server I have to setup. > The mail machines we usually have around 3 million files. 3.6TB (currently about 2.5TB used), file sizes range from a few k, (websites), to over 100GB, (video sources). Number of files, unknown. I'll count them some weekend for kicks when I think of it. Rocket- .ike From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 22 16:34:49 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:34:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <56E6B29E-2647-4CA4-AA2F-4BB83E719722@lesmuug.org> Message-ID: Isaac Levy writes: > 3.6TB (currently about 2.5TB used) What you have that on? SAN/#U server? I think you mentioned but... is that IDE or SCSI? > Number of files, unknown. I'll count them some weekend for kicks > when I think of it. That would be interesting.. It is not that bad.. you can run it almost at any time. I find that find is not too demanding on resources. I count files so often on directories that I have an alias fwc ==> find . |wc -l From spork at bway.net Sat Apr 22 18:58:20 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 18:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Apr 2006, Pete Wright wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 11:47:56PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: >> Soon to buy a couple of new server and wondering if we should get 4GB or >> 8GB. My first stop is trying to better understand memory utilization. >> >> Any suggested links? > > what is the profile on queries you are going to running against the > DB? are we looking at lot's of small queries, periodic quries on large > data set's or something in between. i am in the process of building a > large postgres server that is going to be doing data warehousing, we are > thinking that we should be fine with 4gig's or RAM as we will not have > many concurrent connections. Another resource (besides this fine list) is the Postgresql-performance list. They gladly entertain all sorts of questions about memory sizing, query optimization, RAID controllers, etc. Lots of very good (and forward-thinking) knowledge on that list. Charles > HTH > -p > > > -- > ~~oO00Oo~~ > Peter Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > www.nomadlogic.org/~pete > 310.869.9459 > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 22 19:08:25 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:08:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Charles Sprickman writes: > Another resource (besides this fine list) is the Postgresql-performance > list. I am familiar with that list. I am subscribed to it. However I am trying to learn from the FreeBSD side first.. how to read the memory portion of "top" and whatever other tool there is to figure memory status. Only one of the two machines I will be ordering soon will be a DB server. From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 19:26:25 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:26:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604221626j50d5ebb1g59c8c66c563aacee@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Pete Wright wrote: > as an aside, i have another postgres DB that we are running out of a > memory FS. it's execellent, although took a bit of work on our end to > architect a solution that would work this way. the database in the memfs > partition does not persist between reboot's - it populates itself off > an oracle server (and through some other methods) between reboots. it > has been very successfull performance wise, although granted such a > solution may not fit everyone's environment. what kind of speedup did you see vs a normal(disk based) database? marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sat Apr 22 20:14:00 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:14:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Francisco, On Apr 22, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Pete Wright writes: >> the best i'd look for info on memory utilization in freebsd would >> be the >> McKusick/Neville-Neil design and implementation book. > > Althought that is a good long term plan I would settle for a good > explanation of top's memory display. :-) > I have found some, but not to the level I need. > In short I am looking to answer "does this machine has enough > memory for the > amount of programs we are running it it.. and to leave a decent > amount of > memory for the OS to cache files". Can you show a snapshot of what top is showing you now during ideal load (or a load that could be extrapolated on somehow)? Analyzing my host might help you analyze yours. I have a memory strapped machine, total process vmsize is: bjorn at host=>for i in `ps -axo rss`; do SUM=$(($SUM+$i)); done; echo $SUM 893352 bjorn at host=>for i in `ps -axo vsz`; do SUM=$(($SUM+$i)); done; echo $SUM 1166716 Unfortunately, shared memory makes this hard to quantify, but if I could have this much memory, I wouldn't have a problem. top shows currently: Mem: 92M Active, 111M Inact, 56M Wired, 13M Cache, 38M Buf, 804K Free Swap: 512M Total, 684K Used, 511M Free bjorn at host=>vmstat 1 procs memory page disk faults cpu r b w avm fre flt re pi po fr sr ad0 in sy cs us sy id 1 8 1 191568 16864 28 0 0 0 266 240 0 1341 1867 623 22 5 73 1 8 0 193012 15392 92 0 4 0 414 0 65 1400 1944 742 18 9 73 So far I see that my host has 56M wired mostly for the kernel, 92M for active processes and 111M inactive for sleeping processes. Maybe someone can pipe in about the difference between Cache and Buf, man 1 top says that one is VM and the other is BIO based, McKusick's book says that FreeBSD buffering using the VM system, so I am assuming BIO is external to the VM system but not sure how. Is this the hard drive's cache? 8 processes are blocking probably contending for vm resources to get freed up. I am paging in and freeing a bunch of resources during this cycle. Also when I look at iostat I see a significant amount of disk activity (a lot for a 2.5" ide): root at tabasco=>iostat 1 tty ad0 cpu tin tout KB/t tps MB/s us ni sy in id 0 1 18.27 52 0.93 16 5 5 1 73 0 129 12.89 70 0.88 0 18 9 2 71 0 43 23.55 67 1.54 1 25 6 0 68 0 43 59.08 50 2.88 0 39 7 0 54 0 43 57.38 52 2.91 1 34 8 0 57 0 43 48.09 64 3.00 0 38 7 1 54 this is pretty much due to vm swapping: bjorn at host=>ps -axo inblock,oublock,comm | sort -n -k 2 | tail -3 325 1152 ntpd 0 8695 bufdaemon 69360 5017287 syncer wait a sec, these are file system daemons, not indicating a vm problem necessarily. Is my host slow because I don't have fast enough access to files. bjorn at host=>ps -axo inblock,oublock,comm | sort -n -k 1 | tail -5 5895 0 imapd 6326 0 imapd 21420 77 syslogd 69378 5017849 syncer 204353 0 qmgr regardless, major faults show that my webserver is paging in the most. bjorn at host=>ps -axo majflt,minflt,comm | sort -n -k 1 | tail -5 18 394 sshd 19 1746 named 24 18078 python 41 220 httpd 128 22273 httpd minor faults show that my mail and imap servers are reclaiming from the inactive memory pool. These process are probably the most active since they don't have a high number of minfaults but not major faults. bjorn at host=>ps -axo majflt,minflt,comm | sort -n -k 2 | tail -5 0 68678 authdaemond.plain 0 89604 cron 0 96640 imapd 0 181791 imapd 0 299139 master The result of this is that I would probably be fine with a gig of ram. As far as factoring for shared memory and trying to figure if I would do well with less ram, anyone have any ideas? Francisco, can you apply this to what you are contending with? -Bjorn From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 20:27:50 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:27:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604221727la95d7e1sde73c087fb4e23ed@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Charles Sprickman writes: > > > Another resource (besides this fine list) is the Postgresql-performance > > list. > > I am familiar with that list. I am subscribed to it. > However I am trying to learn from the FreeBSD side first.. how to read > the memory portion of "top" and whatever other tool there is to figure > memory status. here is a nice explanation of the memory description, from tops man page: DESCRIPTION OF MEMORY Mem: 9220K Active, 1032K Inact, 3284K Wired, 1MB Cache, 2M Buf, 1320K Free Swap: 91M Total, 79M Free, 13% Inuse, 80K In, 104 K Out K: Kilobyte M: Megabyte %: 1/100 Active: number of pages active Inact: number of pages inactive Wired: number of pages wired down, including cached file data pages Cache: number of pages used for VM-level disk caching Buf: number of pages used for BIO-level disk caching Free: number of pages free Total: total available swap usage Free: total free swap usage Inuse: swap usage In: pages paged in from swap devices (last interval) Out: pages paged out to swap devices (last interval) what needs more explanation, other then Wired which I am not too sure about? pstat, vmstat and things pointed to in their man pages might also be of interest also look at thing that end in stat, some may be useful: [marc at laptop ~]$ ls {/sbin/,/bin/,/usr/bin/,/usr/sbin/}*stat ls: /bin/*stat: No such file or directory /sbin/ipfstat /usr/bin/stat /usr/sbin/iostat /sbin/kldstat /usr/bin/systat /usr/sbin/pmcstat /usr/bin/btsockstat /usr/bin/uustat /usr/sbin/pstat /usr/bin/fstat /usr/bin/vmstat /usr/sbin/purgestat /usr/bin/netstat /usr/sbin/gstat /usr/sbin/slstat /usr/bin/nfsstat /usr/sbin/hoststat /usr/bin/sockstat /usr/sbin/ifmcstat [marc at laptop ~]$ and some will not, slstat for examle. Also put a $value on an hour of your time. so you do not spend $1000 on researching a $200 question. I just looked at pricewatch.com and memory is cheap enough that you should just buy lots and be done, 2gb stick is running around $140-175. > > Only one of the two machines I will be ordering soon will be a DB server. this is definatly a $200 question, assuming there are 4 slots available just get 2 of the bigest sticks that fit and buy 2 more if it is not big enough. Or just fill it with the argument is it worth X to run the risk of memory being a problem. marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sat Apr 22 20:40:40 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:40:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30604221727la95d7e1sde73c087fb4e23ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <8c50a3c30604221727la95d7e1sde73c087fb4e23ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Marc, On Apr 22, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > what needs more explanation, other then Wired which I am not too sure > about? wired consists of pages that can't be swapped out usually part of the vmsystem (which would cause a swap loop) or kernel. > [marc at laptop ~]$ ls {/sbin/,/bin/,/usr/bin/,/usr/sbin/}*stat > ls: /bin/*stat: No such file or directory > /sbin/ipfstat /usr/bin/stat /usr/sbin/iostat > /sbin/kldstat /usr/bin/systat /usr/sbin/pmcstat > /usr/bin/btsockstat /usr/bin/uustat /usr/sbin/pstat > /usr/bin/fstat /usr/bin/vmstat /usr/sbin/purgestat > /usr/bin/netstat /usr/sbin/gstat /usr/sbin/slstat > /usr/bin/nfsstat /usr/sbin/hoststat > /usr/bin/sockstat /usr/sbin/ifmcstat > [marc at laptop ~]$ Great tip, hadn't used fstat yet. It's a good replacement for lsof if you don't have it installed. -Bjorn From mspitzer at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 21:07:25 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:07:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <8c50a3c30604221727la95d7e1sde73c087fb4e23ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604221807x24edf3cdl88e659bced2ee8f4@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/06, Bjorn Nelson wrote: > Marc, > > On Apr 22, 2006, at 8:27 PM, Marc Spitzer wrote: > > > what needs more explanation, other then Wired which I am not too sure > > about? > > wired consists of pages that can't be swapped out usually part of the > vmsystem (which would cause a swap loop) or kernel. ahh thanks > > > [marc at laptop ~]$ ls {/sbin/,/bin/,/usr/bin/,/usr/sbin/}*stat > > ls: /bin/*stat: No such file or directory > > /sbin/ipfstat /usr/bin/stat /usr/sbin/iostat > > /sbin/kldstat /usr/bin/systat /usr/sbin/pmcstat > > /usr/bin/btsockstat /usr/bin/uustat /usr/sbin/pstat > > /usr/bin/fstat /usr/bin/vmstat /usr/sbin/purgestat > > /usr/bin/netstat /usr/sbin/gstat /usr/sbin/slstat > > /usr/bin/nfsstat /usr/sbin/hoststat > > /usr/bin/sockstat /usr/sbin/ifmcstat > > [marc at laptop ~]$ > > Great tip, hadn't used fstat yet. It's a good replacement for lsof > if you don't have it installed. sockstat is also good for lsof -i, purgestat sounds ike I am reporting something to stalin. I need to check the manpage on that one. marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From lists at stringsutils.com Sat Apr 22 23:43:01 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:43:01 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Building a FreeBSD Build System References: <20060421081924.1bcbdebf@wit.genoverly.home> <7708fd680604210631u25e48c60qb2161d8277386da7@mail.gmail.com> <98D8E0B2-5528-46EC-B491-873C9653F090@belovedarctos.com> Message-ID: Bjorn Nelson writes: > It got mention in newsforge & bsdnews as well. Congrats! > I have to thank Dru for >getting me in touch with the right people. Yup. That's also how I got my article published last year. Dru pointed me in the right direction. Now if there were only more hours in the day to have time for another article. :-) From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 00:57:14 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:57:14 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application Message-ID: Tried freebsd-questions... without much luck.. -- While trying to do a quiery in the postgresql client got an error "out of memory for query result". After checking the postgresql list I got this reply "Process memory allowed to the client; this is not a server-side error." How would I crease the memory allowed to a specific program? I looked at /etc/login.conf and there I see: :datasize=unlimited:\ :stacksize=unlimited:\ :memorylocked=unlimited:\ :memoryuse=unlimited:\ :filesize=unlimited:\ Is this a kernel setting? Looking at top, it seems the psql client got to 512MB before it reported the error. From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 01:51:41 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 01:51:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604222251v31ee3520h26e8d9eb3007dde2@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Tried freebsd-questions... without much luck.. > > -- > While trying to do a quiery in the postgresql client got an error "out of > memory for query result". After checking the postgresql > list I got this reply > > "Process memory allowed to the client; this is not a server-side error." > > > How would I crease the memory allowed to a specific program? > > I looked at /etc/login.conf and there I see: > :datasize=unlimited:\ > :stacksize=unlimited:\ > :memorylocked=unlimited:\ > :memoryuse=unlimited:\ > :filesize=unlimited:\ > Do you get different behavior if you run as root? How much RAM is installed on the box? How much is free? are you running the psql client on the same box as the server? How much swap space is there? How much is avalable? Does this work else where? should the result set be this big? what version of postgress are you running? are you running a custom kernel? other questions with answeres to help you solve your problem should go here What you have done to test should go here the more information you give us the more likely it is we can and will help you. Please also keep in mind the quality of the problem report is seen by me, and possibly others, as how much you respect the people on the list who can and are trying to fix your problem for free. and what I am see in your requests you do not appear to be putting in much effort befor bothering the rest of us and I feel that that is quite rude. Now if you have been working on the problem it would be best to give a detailed list of what happened and what you did to try to fix it and what the results of those actions were, if you can not write a decient list then why are you bothering us? Now I am not writting this based on just one thread but after at least three threads that I have been involved in with you in the last week or so, two of them tonight. I am here to discus things with my peers and to help people become my peers, so we can talk about interesting stuff. I am not here to provide free consulting, on a professional level I do not care about your problems. The reason for this is you do not pay me to care about your problems. You are acting like a client and are not paying my rate, please fix the first part or the second. marc > > Is this a kernel setting? ps could be, look into it and tell us > Looking at top, it seems the psql client got to 512MB before it reported the > error. > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 12:27:58 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:27:58 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application References: <8c50a3c30604222251v31ee3520h26e8d9eb3007dde2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Marc Spitzer writes: > Do you get different behavior if you run as root? No. > How much RAM is installed on the box? 2GB. > How much is free? I knew exactly I would not have the other read about memory going.. But see if this helps. Top memory: Mem: 433M Active, 974M Inact, 242M Wired, 95M Cache, 112M Buf, 259M Free > are you running the psql client on the same box as the server? Yes. > How much swap space is there? Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity /dev/da0s1b 4194304 116 4194188 0% > How much is avalable? Almost all of it. > Does this work else where? Don't know. > should the result set be this big? Yes it should. This is not a postgresql issue. The result set is 6 million records and yes it, unfortunately, needs to be that big. I will try and talk to the Bacula devs about perhaps doing a better job.. instead of doing a straight select against a large table > what version of postgress are you running? I really don't believe it is an issue, but it's 8.1.3 I already got an answer from the postgreSQL list. The psql client is running out of memory. > are you running a custom kernel? Yes. > other questions with answeres to help you solve your problem should go here This all started with a Bacula setup I am getting done with Dan Langille's help. When a restore job failed, we tracked it down to running out of memory at the process level. The bacula program (either the director or the storage daemon) ran out of memory on a query. I tried the same query on psql with the same result. That gives us two different programs having the same issue, running out of memory on a particular query. > What you have done to test should go here Narrowed the problem down to what seems FreeBSD placing a limit on a process. > the more information you give us the more likely it is we can and will > help you. Does the above help? > Please also keep in mind the quality of the problem report is seen by > me, and possibly others, as how much you respect the people on the > list who can and are trying to fix your problem for free. I actually did not report a problem. I asked a question if someone knew offhand how to increase the memory limit for an app. I do agree that more background info would have been helpfull. Will most definitely keep that in mind. However, I personally don't like to write long emails when asking questions. I try to find a balance between giving all the info possible and not making the email too long. I try my best to respect people's time. Some people will know about particular problems. Others wont'.. but both type of people may spend the time reading an email, so I don't want to take too much time away from someone who may not know the answer anyways. > am see in your requests you do not appear to be putting in much effort > befor bothering the rest of us and I feel that that is quite rude. I did not ask anyone to troubleshoot my problem. I did my best over 3 days, possibly 10+ hours searching archives.. trying different keywords, trying different search engines. After all that time and a few people's advice all it came down to is what seems some time of per process limit. On top of that when I didn't know yet it was a FreeBSD issue spent some other 2+ hours going over the PostgreSQL docs trying to increase the server memory; increasing shared buffers, making sure it was not some type of server resource or cursor resource that needed to be increased. ONLY after I exausted all options I could find I asked in the PostgreSQL answer. One of the PostgreSQL developers responded it was a client issue. Given that both psql and the bacula process ran out of memory it seemed to make sense that it was not a server issue. Therefore I have been concentrating on the OS. Other simmilar reports on other operating systems indicated also a per process type of limit, but didn't pay as much attention to those emails because the settings would likely not be the same on a BSD (the emails were for Linux). > Now if you have been working on the problem it would be best to give a > detailed list of what happened and what you did to try to fix it and > what the results of those actions were That sounds like asking someone how to get to broadway.. and they asking you why yo want to go there. I agree that more info than I originaly gave would not have been a bad thing, however after I (hopefully) have given more info.. we are very likely exactly at the same place than when I wrote the initial question.. looking for a way to increase the per process limit of an app. I do agree I should try other machines.. perhaps something on that machine needs to be changed.. it is 5.4.. perhaps a 6.X will not have the problem. >if you can not write a decient list then why are you bothering us? Perhaps I don't understand the purpose of a mailing list like this. Isn't the purpose of this list for people with a common interest to pool their knowledge and try to help each other? If someone writes an email and it is obvious to you what the problem is that someone is having shouldn't we help that person? If we don't know and have no idea, then we can just move on to the next email. It is not like this list is so busy that we have to censor emails.. specially if they are related to one of the BSD. > Now I am not writting this based on just one thread but after at least > three threads that I have been involved in with you in the last week > or so, two of them tonight. Is there a quota on the number of questions we can post? I know about the memory question, which your previous post basically implies that I didn't bother to read the man page. I did. And also the man page for vmstat.. and several freebsd books I have.. read the sections on memory. What seems to be obvious to you regarding top memory display is not obvious to me.. specially when I see different machines with different values..etc, etc.. I will reply about that on that other email, instead of getting things convoluted. Moreover, that subject was NOT an urgent issue that I am trying to get other people to "solve for me". It is basically a search for more info on a topic, which I believe would be of interest to others once I find better answers which I will obviously share. > I am here to discus things with my peers and to help people become my > peers, so we can talk about interesting stuff. If you find my posts boring, or a lazy attemp to get others to do my job, then please just ignore them. I can't recall asking a question before I have spent at least 4+ hours researching the topic and often times have been researching the topic for days. You are also forgetting the psycology of a problem.. some times after a person has been looking at a problem for a week or two, they may not be in the most objective or logical state that you wish people where. People sometimes are tired of a problem, or even desperate.. so their questions may not make the most sense to the rest of the world.. It is on those times that others can be more helpfull and direct the person to give the right info instead of making assumptions about how much/little they have researched. >I am not here to provide free consulting, on a professional level I do not care about > your problems. I am so looking forward to other's feedback on this thread. :-) > The reason for this is you do not pay me to care about > your problems. You are acting like a client and are not paying my > rate, please fix the first part or the second. I really must not understand Open Source lists and user group lists then.. I really though it was about people helping each other. I must have really missed "the memo" where it was dictated people HAD to help others. If I don't know or don't want to help someone.. I don't reply to their email. Personally I feel anything else is a waste of list member's time. From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 13:18:29 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:18:29 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Bjorn Nelson writes: > bjorn at host=>for i in `ps -axo rss`; do SUM=$(($SUM+$i)); done; echo $SUM > 893352 > bjorn at host=>for i in `ps -axo vsz`; do SUM=$(($SUM+$i)); done; echo $SUM > 1166716 Thanks for the mini scripts. Very usefull. > top shows currently: > Mem: 92M Active, 111M Inact, 56M Wired, 13M Cache, 38M Buf, 804K Free > Swap: 512M Total, 684K Used, 511M Free > > bjorn at host=>vmstat 1 > procs memory page disk faults cpu > r b w avm fre flt re pi po fr sr ad0 in sy cs us sy id > 1 8 1 191568 16864 28 0 0 0 266 240 0 1341 1867 623 22 5 73 > 1 8 0 193012 15392 92 0 4 0 414 0 65 1400 1944 742 18 9 73 > > So far I see that my host has 56M wired mostly for the kernel, 92M > for active processes and 111M inactive for sleeping processes. Maybe > someone can pipe in about the difference between Cache and Buf, man 1 > top says that one is VM and the other is BIO based, McKusick's book > says that FreeBSD buffering using the VM system, so I am assuming BIO > is external to the VM system but not sure how. Is this the hard > drive's cache? > > 8 processes are blocking probably contending for vm resources to get > freed up. I am paging in and freeing a bunch of resources during > this cycle. The 'r' column in vmstat from what I have read is number of processes waiting for CPU and the 'b' column is number of pending transactions waiting to get done. Also I believe the vmstat numbers depend on some variables that are updated every 5 secons so any number below 5 will not be all that meaninfull. Best explanation of vmstat I have found is Absolute BSD by Michael Lucas (page 432 onward). Ok I am with you so far. Specially I think I mostly get/understand/agree with the meaning of active, inactive and wired. If we tally up those numbers: 92 Active 111 Inact 56 Wired 13 Cache 38 Buf 1 Free (rounded) --- 311 > this is pretty much due to vm swapping: > bjorn at host=>ps -axo inblock,oublock,comm | sort -n -k 2 | tail -3 > 325 1152 ntpd > 0 8695 bufdaemon > 69360 5017287 syncer Can you explain that a little more please? Inblock and outblook is what? The read and written by and app? Man page has: inblk total blocks read (alias inblock) oublk total blocks written (alias oublock) > regardless, major faults show that my webserver is paging in the most. I will have to readup on those two keywords. >From man page... majflt total page faults minflt total page reclaims Is a page fault basically reading from swap? Re-reading the vmstat section on absolute BSD as I type this. :) I think I am for the most part clear on majflt. minflt seems simmilar to 're' in vmstat.. "shows how many pages have been reclaimed or reused from cache (Absolute BSD page 434). What is that "cache" referred to by the book? > bjorn at host=>ps -axo majflt,minflt,comm | sort -n -k 1 | tail -5 > 18 394 sshd > 19 1746 named > 24 18078 python > 41 220 httpd > 128 22273 httpd You say your server is mostly "pagin in". Again from Absolute BSD page 434 pi "Short for pages in, it shows how many pages are moving from physical memory to swap".. So page in is going into swap.. and major fault is coming out from swap? Hm.. Look at this output from one of my machines: ps -axo majflt,minflt,comm | grep -v " 0 0 " | sort -n -k .... lines of interest .... MAJFLT MINFLT COMMAND 106 1717796 mysqld 1 142441891 bacula-fd > minor faults show that my mail and imap servers are reclaiming from > the inactive memory pool. These process are probably the most active > since they don't have a high number of minfaults but not major faults. That was going to be my next question. :-) Ok.. so those processes above are hitting "Inactive" memory. I wish they had used a different name.. doesn't sound like that memory is inactive at all. :-) The memory for the machine running bacula is Mem: 333M Active, 2269M Inact, 301M Wired, 104M Cache, 112M Buf, 4564K Free swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity /dev/da0s1b 6291456 216 6291240 0% So basically the Inact pool is what is getting used the most. Specially given all the minfaults and few major faults.. plus swap rarely used. > The result of this is that I would probably be fine with a gig of > ram. Only two pieces of info I didn't see. What is the amount of physical memory? What is your "swapinfo"? > Francisco, can you apply this to what you are contending with? Absolutely! In particular you put in content info I had read from the Absolute BSD. It is one thing to see explanations and another to see them in context. From bob at redivi.com Sun Apr 23 13:22:34 2006 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:22:34 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2006, at 9:57 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Tried freebsd-questions... without much luck.. > > -- > While trying to do a quiery in the postgresql client got an error > "out of > memory for query result". After checking the postgresql > list I got this reply > > "Process memory allowed to the client; this is not a server-side > error." > > > How would I crease the memory allowed to a specific program? > > I looked at /etc/login.conf and there I see: > :datasize=unlimited:\ > :stacksize=unlimited:\ > :memorylocked=unlimited:\ > :memoryuse=unlimited:\ > :filesize=unlimited:\ > > > Is this a kernel setting? > Looking at top, it seems the psql client got to 512MB before it > reported the > error. Default max process size on FreeBSD is 512MB. You need to create / boot/loader.conf and tweak the appropriate settings then reboot. Here's what mine looks like: kern.ipc.semmni=256 kern.ipc.semmns=512 kern.ipc.semmnu=256 kern.maxdsiz="1073741824" # 1GB kern.dfldsiz="1073741824" # 1GB kern.maxssiz="134217728" # 128MB -bob From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 13:26:50 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:26:50 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application References: Message-ID: Bob Ippolito writes: > Default max process size on FreeBSD is 512MB. You need to create / > boot/loader.conf and tweak the appropriate settings then reboot. > kern.ipc.semmni=256 > kern.ipc.semmns=512 > kern.ipc.semmnu=256 > kern.maxdsiz="1073741824" # 1GB > kern.dfldsiz="1073741824" # 1GB > kern.maxssiz="134217728" # 128MB Thanks! Will look up all those to see what they mean. From lists at genoverly.net Sun Apr 23 13:49:19 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 13:49:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading openbsd Message-ID: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> I frequently keep pretty up-to-date snapshots running on some of my OpenBSD boxes. Even though mergemaster is not in base, I use it to update the etc files after an upgrade. To make this process easier, I tend to trim the new tree before merging. Example.. on two of the boxes I will *never* run a web server, so, I `rm -r new_etc/var/www` before I even start. Anyone who upgrades OpenBSD knows this saves gobs of keystrokes. Merging is usually pretty easy because I don't edit system files; e.g. rc.conf is a system file where rc.conf.local is mine, so mergemaster doesn't touch it. But, to save time (and potential fat-finger), I'm thinking of trimming the new tree even more before merging. Here is a potential list of whacks. Is there any danger in this approach? On some boxes where I run Postfix rather than Sendmail: 1. rm new_etc/etc/mail/* 2. rm new_etc/etc/mailer.conf Below, should I check if some new process requires a new user, or whack it? I have it on this list because don't want to clobber this file by accident. 3. rm new_etc/etc/master.passwd Below, these I don't want to change or don't really need an update. 4. rm new_etc/etc/motd 5. rm new_etc/etc/myname 6. rm new_etc/etc/pf.conf 7. rm new_etc/etc/sudoers Below, like master.passwd, should I check if there are *new* cron jobs, or whack it? 8. rm new_etc/var/cron/tabs/root -- Michael -- Michael From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 14:36:08 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:36:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application In-Reply-To: References: <8c50a3c30604222251v31ee3520h26e8d9eb3007dde2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604231136r124fea2v2b906a3e57807292@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Marc Spitzer writes: > [snip] > > Does the above help? yes it did. Look at the limit/ulimit shell builtin, here is mine: $ [marc at laptop ~]$ ulimit -a core file size (blocks, -c) unlimited data seg size (kbytes, -d) 524288 file size (blocks, -f) unlimited max locked memory (kbytes, -l) unlimited max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 7264 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 1 stack size (kbytes, -s) 65536 cpu time (seconds, -t) unlimited max user processes (-u) 3632 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) unlimited [marc at laptop ~]$ it looks like the data segment size needs to get bigger. You should also talk to the backula people about chunking the output instead of getting it all at once. > > > > Please also keep in mind the quality of the problem report is seen by > > me, and possibly others, as how much you respect the people on the > > list who can and are trying to fix your problem for free. > > I actually did not report a problem. I asked a question if someone knew > offhand how to increase the memory limit for an app. you asked a vauge question, with no supporting info, and it looks like you spent less then a minute typing it. If that is how much you value our responce why should we make one? This list has, by its nature, a good deal of delay between messages. And by not puting a bit of effort and info into what you send you are implying that we need to figure out your problem and that implys that all of our time is not as valuble as yours or to put it another way you are being very rude. While at the bar after a meeting it would be fine to ask that kind of question, because the other person could clarify it quickly and you are not shouting it to the whole group at the bar to list two reasons. > > I do agree that more background info would have been helpfull. Will most > definitely keep that in mind. However, I personally don't like to write long > emails when asking questions. I try to find a balance between giving all the > info possible and not making the email too long. I try my best to respect > people's time. Some people will know about particular problems. Others > wont'.. but both type of people may spend the time reading an email, so I > don't want to take too much time away from someone who may not know the > answer anyways. you seem to have missed a point or n here: 1: this list is not about giving you answers 2: there is no one here who must read your email 3: you will generally recive help in direct proportion to the effort that is percieved to go into the request 4: This list is here to discuss things by giving us more to talk about you are more likely to get answers > > > > am see in your requests you do not appear to be putting in much effort > > befor bothering the rest of us and I feel that that is quite rude. > > I did not ask anyone to troubleshoot my problem. > I did my best over 3 days, possibly 10+ hours searching archives.. trying > different keywords, trying different search engines. After all that time and > a few people's advice all it came down to is what seems some time of > per process limit. On top of that when I didn't know yet it was a FreeBSD > issue spent some other 2+ hours going over the PostgreSQL docs trying to > increase the server memory; increasing shared buffers, making sure it was > not some type of server resource or cursor resource that needed to be > increased. ONLY after I exausted all options I could find I asked in the > PostgreSQL answer. One of the PostgreSQL developers responded it was a > client issue. thats good but you did not give us even a hint of all that work so how were we suposed to figure it out. This goes back to spending 10 min to put together a good message, part of that is explaining to us we are not the first stop on this issue. also the info may help us trouble shoot the problem or the act of writing it down may give you new insight to the problem. > > Given that both psql and the bacula process ran out of memory it seemed to > make sense that it was not a server issue. Therefore I have been > concentrating on the OS. > > Other simmilar reports on other operating systems indicated also a per > process type of limit, but didn't pay as much attention to those emails > because the settings would likely not be the same on a BSD (the emails were > for Linux). bash works the same on both > > > Now if you have been working on the problem it would be best to give a > > detailed list of what happened and what you did to try to fix it and > > what the results of those actions were > > That sounds like asking someone how to get to broadway.. and they asking you > why yo want to go there. no hard work is the proper puchline to that joke. > > I agree that more info than I originaly gave would not have been a bad > thing, however after I (hopefully) have given more info.. we are very likely > exactly at the same place than when I wrote the initial question.. looking > for a way to increase the per process limit of an app. what this 'we' stuff, again burn it into you thought process we are not here to help you. We may if we decied to, but that is up to us. If you keep implying that you should get free consulting you will get exactly what you pay for. > >if you can not write a decient list then why are you bothering us? > > Perhaps I don't understand the purpose of a mailing list like this. > Isn't the purpose of this list for people with a common interest to pool > their knowledge and try to help each other? This is a discussion list. Its purpose is to discuss things, bsd related or of general interest to the group. Your problems may or may not be of general interest to the group. The fact that you are posting questions in such a way that it looks like you are doing no work on them befor bothering us with them is of general interest to the group, this is because it tags you as someone to ignore in the future and the present. You are working hard to turn on the bozo-bit and it is hard to turn off > > If someone writes an email and it is obvious to you what the problem is that > someone is having shouldn't we help that person? it depends, this is not a newbees list nor is it a place for people who apear to want to stay newbees. > > If we don't know and have no idea, then we can just move on to the next > email. It is not like this list is so busy that we have to censor emails.. > specially if they are related to one of the BSD. You can ask all the stupid and ill concieved questions you want, but after a while who will bother to answer them. > > > Now I am not writting this based on just one thread but after at least > > three threads that I have been involved in with you in the last week > > or so, two of them tonight. > > Is there a quota on the number of questions we can post? > I know about the memory question, which your previous post basically > implies that I didn't bother to read the man page. I did. And also the man > page for vmstat.. and several freebsd books I have.. read the sections on > memory. you are asking questions in a format that shows a lack of respect for the rest of us. Since you want answers to them, to help you do your job, you might want to change that behavior. Since you are asking questions it would be best for you to accomadate us, if you want answers. > > I do agree I should try other machines.. perhaps something on that machine > needs to be changed.. it is 5.4.. perhaps a 6.X will not have the problem. > > > What seems to be obvious to you regarding top memory display is not obvious > to me.. specially when I see different machines with different values..etc, > etc.. I will reply about that on that other email, instead of getting > things convoluted. > > Moreover, that subject was NOT an urgent issue that I am trying to get other > people to "solve for me". It is basically a search for more info on a topic, > which I believe would be of interest to others once I find better answers > which I will obviously share. oppinions differ. > > > > I am here to discus things with my peers and to help people become my > > peers, so we can talk about interesting stuff. > > If you find my posts boring, or a lazy attemp to get others to do my job, > then please just ignore them. I can't recall asking a question before I have > spent at least 4+ hours researching the topic and often times have been > researching the topic for days. You seem to have missed the point. It is not the questions I object to it is the lack of work you put into writting them that I object to. > > You are also forgetting the psycology of a problem.. some times after a > person has been looking at a problem for a week or two, they may not be in > the most objective or logical state that you wish people where. People > sometimes are tired of a problem, or even desperate.. so their questions may > not make the most sense to the rest of the world.. It is on those times that > others can be more helpfull and direct the person to give the right info > instead of making assumptions about how much/little they have researched. And this prevents you from spending 15 minutes composing a good question so people would be inclined to help you how? As far as the inner workings of your mind go I do not care. > > > > >I am not here to provide free consulting, on a professional level I do not care about > > your problems. > > I am so looking forward to other's feedback on this thread. :-) > > > > The reason for this is you do not pay me to care about > > your problems. You are acting like a client and are not paying my > > rate, please fix the first part or the second. > > I really must not understand Open Source lists and user group lists then.. I > really though it was about people helping each other. I must have really > missed "the memo" where it was dictated people HAD to help others. If I > don't know or don't want to help someone.. I don't reply to their email. > Personally I feel anything else is a waste of list member's time. > You seem to forget I have tried to help you previously. And the message that you are replying to is an attempt to help you. And the way open source lists work, except the newbees lists, are generally as follows: You live and die by your reputation on the list. If you generate a reputation as a lazy idiot people will not help you. Wether you are a lazy idiot is a diferent question, but you are judged by what goes on in the list. marc -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sun Apr 23 14:46:25 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:46:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Francisco, I reread some of McKusick's book; I think I found the answer for buffer vs cache in top. cache is just another memory pool like inactive or free. It contains pages that still can be referenced to something ( process, file, etc) but does not contain any information that is backed by disk (i.e. clean). Buffer is a layer that sits between the file system and cache. When they merged filesystem buffering into the vm, they kept a sort of emulation layer so they didn't have to rewrite all the filesystems. This buffer cache basically behaves the same way it used to on the filesystem side but references the vm system instead of ram directly. On Apr 23, 2006, at 1:18 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote: > The 'r' column in vmstat from what I have read is number of > processes waiting for CPU and the 'b' column is number of pending > transactions waiting to get done. That is my understanding too. More distinctly, r is also referred to as runqueue, b is processes that are being blocked because they are waiting for a resource to free up. > Also I believe the vmstat numbers depend on some variables that are > updated every 5 secons so any number below 5 will not be all that > meaninfull. Best explanation of vmstat I have found is Absolute BSD > by Michael Lucas (page 432 onward). "These are averaged each five seconds, and given in units per second." -man vmstat, I am assuming this takes the average over the past 5 seconds every second. This is also just for the page option, I believe the rest is based on the interval you set for the tool. You may not see the extent of a spike, but you should see some movement at least. > Ok I am with you so far. > Specially I think I mostly get/understand/agree with the meaning of > active, inactive and wired. > If we tally up those numbers: > 92 Active > 111 Inact > 56 Wired > 13 Cache > 38 Buf > 1 Free (rounded) > --- > 311 Looking at these numbers, it looks like you are in the same boat as me :) When I reread some parts of the McKusick book, I found that Inactive, Cache, and Free has a percentage that the vm tries to maintain. I guess it's not enough to look at your free list and assume you need more ram because it's empty. >> this is pretty much due to vm swapping: >> bjorn at host=>ps -axo inblock,oublock,comm | sort -n -k 2 | tail -3 >> 325 1152 ntpd >> 0 8695 bufdaemon >> 69360 5017287 syncer > > Can you explain that a little more please? > Inblock and outblook is what? The read and written by and app? > Man page has: > inblk total blocks read (alias inblock) > oublk total blocks written (alias oublock) That is my understand of it. I am not sure if this is specific to disk though, it might also be network, or anything else that can be opened using an open syscall. Also, the metric for this is your block size I believe, 4096 for instance. Someone on the list pipe in if they know the right metric for this (is it 1024?) > I will have to readup on those two keywords. > From man page... > majflt total page faults > minflt total page reclaims > > Is a page fault basically reading from swap? > Re-reading the vmstat section on absolute BSD as I type this. :) > I think I am for the most part clear on majflt. > minflt seems simmilar to 're' in vmstat.. > "shows how many pages have been reclaimed or reused from cache > (Absolute BSD page 434). minfaults are reclaims from inactive and I believe cache as well. > What is that "cache" referred to by the book? I believe Michael is referring to inactive and cache. >> bjorn at host=>ps -axo majflt,minflt,comm | sort -n -k 1 | tail -5 >> 18 394 sshd >> 19 1746 named >> 24 18078 python >> 41 220 httpd >> 128 22273 httpd > > You say your server is mostly "pagin in". Again from Absolute BSD > page 434 > pi "Short for pages in, it shows how many pages are moving from > physical memory to swap".. Which flies in the face of McKusick: pagein: An operation done by the virtual-memory system in which the contents of a page are read from secondary storage. pageout: Ano operation done by the virtual-memory system in which the contents of a page are written to secondary storage. (McKusick, Neville-Neil. The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System. Pearson. 2005. p 635) > So page in is going into swap.. and major fault is coming out from > swap? > Hm.. > Look at this output from one of my machines: > ps -axo majflt,minflt,comm | grep -v " 0 0 " | sort -n -k > .... lines of interest .... > MAJFLT MINFLT COMMAND > 106 1717796 mysqld > 1 142441891 bacula-fd Pagein is grabbing from swap same as major fault. Although I don't think a pagein will necessarily go to res. So it looks like bacula- fd is active enough to keep from having to reclaim from disk, but not active enough to hold on to its pages. >> minor faults show that my mail and imap servers are reclaiming >> from the inactive memory pool. These process are probably the >> most active since they don't have a high number of minfaults but >> not major faults. Sorry I meant to say they _do_ have a high number of minfaults but not major faults. > That was going to be my next question. :-) > Ok.. so those processes above are hitting "Inactive" memory. I wish > they had used a different name.. doesn't sound like that memory is > inactive at all. :-) > > The memory for the machine running bacula is > Mem: 333M Active, 2269M Inact, 301M Wired, 104M Cache, 112M Buf, > 4564K Free > > swapinfo > Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity > /dev/da0s1b 6291456 216 6291240 0% > > So basically the Inact pool is what is getting used the most. > Specially given all the minfaults and few major faults.. plus swap > rarely used. One thing that is kind of interesting is just to watch vmstat 1 and see what happens with your system when you perform the tasks you will be doing normally. When I click my "Get Mail" button on my page, my vmsystem jumps: 0 6 0 199560 15360 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1296 234 354 1 2 98 0 6 0 199560 15360 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1290 234 344 1 2 98 3 6 0 202744 13744 934 3 6 0 617 0 37 1355 1831 684 42 12 46 1 6 0 203684 12552 314 0 0 0 303 0 5 1449 808 585 86 14 0 0 8 0 202920 11660 212 0 0 0 350 0 72 1388 1994 749 85 8 7 0 8 0 202920 10692 0 0 0 0 242 0 98 1396 2952 823 25 8 67 When you do a query or a backup on your server what do you see in vmstat? Also, what kinds of config are you trying to spec? DB server and backup for the db server, or general backup server? >> The result of this is that I would probably be fine with a gig of >> ram. > > Only two pieces of info I didn't see. > What is the amount of physical memory? What is your "swapinfo"? My current ram size is 256M and my swap: bjorn at host=>swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity /dev/ad0s1b 524288 716 524288 0% >> Francisco, can you apply this to what you are contending with? > > Absolutely! > In particular you put in content info I had read from the Absolute > BSD. > It is one thing to see explanations and another to see them in > context. Good, this is forcing me to check my facts as well and apply what I read from McKusick's book. I also have to recommend McKusick's video courses: http://www.mckusick.com/courses/index.html -Bjorn From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 14:55:25 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 14:55:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application References: Message-ID: Bob Ippolito writes: > kern.ipc.semmni=256 > kern.ipc.semmns=512 > kern.ipc.semmnu=256 > kern.maxdsiz="1073741824" # 1GB > kern.dfldsiz="1073741824" # 1GB > kern.maxssiz="134217728" # 128MB It worked. Big thanks!! The process sucked up 768MB. The issue is the Bacula backup program. I does a query which returns millions or records at once and they don't do a limit when they query the postgresql database. I was basically reproducing the query using the postgresql client, psql. From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 15:01:06 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:01:06 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Increasing memory for an application References: <8c50a3c30604222251v31ee3520h26e8d9eb3007dde2@mail.gmail.com> <8c50a3c30604231136r124fea2v2b906a3e57807292@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Marc Spitzer writes: > yes it did. Look at the limit/ulimit shell builtin, here is mine: Bob Ippolito gave me the answer. Needed to change some settings in the boot loader configuration files. Thanks for your help. From pete at nomadlogic.org Sun Apr 23 15:07:22 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:07:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Sat, Apr 22, 2006 at 03:33:37PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Pete Wright writes: > >the best i'd look for info on memory utilization in freebsd would be the > >McKusick/Neville-Neil design and implementation book. > > Althought that is a good long term plan I would settle for a good > explanation of top's memory display. :-) > I have found some, but not to the level I need. > In short I am looking to answer "does this machine has enough memory for > the amount of programs we are running it it.. and to leave a decent amount > of memory for the OS to cache files". > ahh yea i usually read the man's and hit the list for quick info ;) FWIW i also keep "systat vmstat" in my back pocket. the UI is pretty cluttered but it does include alot of pertinent info. > The first thing I look at is swap. If the machine is using tens of > megabytes from swap and you see the swap getting used frequently in top.. > that is a clear sign that machine has too many processes for the amount of > RAM. yea that's a good first meter for sure... > >what is the profile on queries you are going to running against the > >DB? > > I am looking to size two machines. One DB, one mail server. > For the DB a large percent of the load will be writes. The app that will > connect and the load programs are currently getting done and I don't have > numbers yet.. However from the existing system (using mysql) that the new > system will replace I see probably 90% + are writes with mostly relatively > simple (but large) queries. Queries like "show me all the records that > matchi this particular criteria and join a couple tables to expand codes". > > >are we looking at lot's of small queries,periodic quries on large > >data set's or something in between. > > Lots of inserts. > Unfrequent queries, but when they are done they will return very frequently > large number of recores. As far as I can tell it will always be index > access. > if you are going to be doing alot of inserts i'd focus on disk IO first, before RAM. RAM is "cheap" and easy to upgrade, chaning your disk configuration during production is a bit tricker, especially if you are not going to use a NAS or SAN for your storage device. > >large postgres server that is going to be doing data warehousing, we are > >thinking that we should be fine with 4gig's or RAM as we will not have > >many concurrent connections. > > I am a bit undecided between going SATA or SCSI. > To be more precise.. > SATA > 6 400GB disks on RAID 10 > 2 hot spares > Net usable: 1.2TB raw (before filesystem) > 8GB RAM > 7.2K rpm disks > > SCSI > 7 150GB disks on RAID5 > 1 hot spare > Net usable: 900GB raw (before filesystem) > 4 GB RAM > 10K rpm disks > > There is also the 10K rpm SATA drives, but I don't think RAID5 with SATA > may be good enough. > > From what I am reading so far after 6 disks the performance between RAID10 > and RAID5 is simmilar. > if you have the money i'd go with 15k RPM scsi drives in a RAID 10 configuration. and if money is really not an issue get an external JBOD or RAID subsystem like a netapp FAS250. otherwise get a good SCSI RAID controller (with alot of onboard cache and a BBU). i've had good luck with LSI adapters, and I belive they are all SMP safe. this should take alot of the load of the server itself and let it deal with your TCP/IP stack the postgres. > >if you are going to have many people hitting this thing, then yea i'd > >give it as much memory as practical and the fastest storage i can > >afford. > > Found a link on postgresql performance and they actually claim that disk > subsystem, them memory, then CPU is what matters.. Obviously as long as > there is a minimal/acceptable amount of RAM to begin with. > yea, i'd really agree with this. > >as an aside, i have another postgres DB that we are running out of a > >memory FS. > > Interesting. How big is the DB? > pretty small, less than a gig. but it is hit very heavily by several thousand nodes 24/7 doing alot of small read/writes. > Can't wait to the days when solid state drives become cheaper. :-) yea eh, and reliable ;) -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Sun Apr 23 15:10:19 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:10:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ldconfig Message-ID: i'm going crazy on this one: I've been trying to get sqlite3 to compile with threads on my freebsd box. ( it had a bug that wouldn't let it do it, and was upgraded a few days ago, but the patch wasn't working right ) I figured there might be some issue with the linked libraries, so i tried running ldconfig. well, ldconfig doesn't seem to work the exactly the same it does on linux... and i managed to wipe all the hints. now my system has neither a /etc/ld.so.conf or /etc/ld-elf.so.conf . (was it always like that? i dont know) and few apps work. running ldconfig /libexec i can get bash running, but i kill ssh. ldconfig /lib gets sshd running, but i kill bash running ldconfig /libexec /lib seems to work . but obviously my box is trashed right now and I need to fix it. and there's got to be a better way. google isn't much help, neither are the man pages. can someone point me in the right direction? From pete at nomadlogic.org Sun Apr 23 15:11:18 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:11:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30604221626j50d5ebb1g59c8c66c563aacee@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <8c50a3c30604221626j50d5ebb1g59c8c66c563aacee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060423191118.GB13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Sat, Apr 22, 2006 at 07:26:25PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote: > On 4/22/06, Pete Wright wrote: > > as an aside, i have another postgres DB that we are running out of a > > memory FS. it's execellent, although took a bit of work on our end to > > architect a solution that would work this way. the database in the memfs > > partition does not persist between reboot's - it populates itself off > > an oracle server (and through some other methods) between reboots. it > > has been very successfull performance wise, although granted such a > > solution may not fit everyone's environment. > > what kind of speedup did you see vs a normal(disk based) database? > > marc i don't have the numbers handy but it was pretty huge in our case. this is a relativy small DB (~512M) that does a lot of small read/writes from a large pool of workstations and nodes in our render farm. because the data did not need to persist between reboots it worked out well in our case. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From pete at nomadlogic.org Sun Apr 23 15:19:23 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:19:23 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading openbsd In-Reply-To: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <20060423191923.GC13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 01:49:19PM -0400, michael wrote: > I frequently keep pretty up-to-date snapshots running on some of my > OpenBSD boxes. Even though mergemaster is not in base, I use it to > update the etc files after an upgrade. To make this process easier, I > tend to trim the new tree before merging. Example.. on two of the > boxes I will *never* run a web server, so, I `rm -r new_etc/var/www` > before I even start. Anyone who upgrades OpenBSD knows this saves gobs > of keystrokes. > > Merging is usually pretty easy because I don't edit system files; e.g. > rc.conf is a system file where rc.conf.local is mine, so mergemaster > doesn't touch it. But, to save time (and potential fat-finger), I'm > thinking of trimming the new tree even more before merging. Here is a > potential list of whacks. Is there any danger in this approach? > that's a pretty interesting idea, didn't think about that. would it make sense to keep your local config data in something like RCS or CVS and write a Makefile that'll install your custom targets after an upgrade? -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sun Apr 23 15:22:03 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:22:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ldconfig In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67277063-880B-414D-8DC6-17F6598266A1@belovedarctos.com> Jonathan, On Apr 23, 2006, at 3:10 PM, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > running ldconfig /libexec /lib seems to work . but obviously my box > is trashed right now and I need to fix it. and there's got to be a > better way. google isn't much help, neither are the man pages. can > someone point me in the right direction? Maybe you can rebuild your hints off of mine. You will probably not need all the /usr/local entries: bjorn at host=>ldconfig -r /var/run/ld-elf.so.hints: search directories: /lib:/usr/lib:/usr/lib/compat:/usr/X11R6/ lib:/usr/local/lib:/usr/local/lib/compat/pkg:/usr/local/lib/apache2:/ usr/local/lib/mysql:/usr/local/lib/pth -Bjorn From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 15:28:00 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:28:00 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ldconfig In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604231228n167f78d5k5eddfd2e10d9bc49@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/06, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > i'm going crazy on this one: > > I've been trying to get sqlite3 to compile with threads on my freebsd > box. ( it had a bug that wouldn't let it do it, and was upgraded a > few days ago, but the patch wasn't working right ) > > I figured there might be some issue with the linked libraries, so i > tried running ldconfig. > > well, ldconfig doesn't seem to work the exactly the same it does on > linux... and i managed to wipe all the hints. > > now my system has neither a /etc/ld.so.conf or /etc/ld-elf.so.conf . > (was it always like that? i dont know) and few apps work. > > running ldconfig /libexec i can get bash running, but i kill ssh. > ldconfig /lib gets sshd running, but i kill bash > > running ldconfig /libexec /lib seems to work . but obviously my box > is trashed right now and I need to fix it. and there's got to be a > better way. google isn't much help, neither are the man pages. can > someone point me in the right direction? 1: man ldconfig 2: as root ldconfig -m /lib /usr/lib ... to get things working, you may want to add a -elf to create a hints file marc > > > > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com Sun Apr 23 15:29:22 2006 From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:29:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading openbsd In-Reply-To: <20060423191923.GC13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> <20060423191923.GC13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <2FDB9F72-3ED5-4C51-8700-9A1A83BF38FA@belovedarctos.com> On Apr 23, 2006, at 3:19 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 01:49:19PM -0400, michael wrote: >> I frequently keep pretty up-to-date snapshots running on some of my >> OpenBSD boxes. Even though mergemaster is not in base, I use it to >> update the etc files after an upgrade. To make this process >> easier, I >> tend to trim the new tree before merging. Example.. on two of the >> boxes I will *never* run a web server, so, I `rm -r new_etc/var/www` >> before I even start. Anyone who upgrades OpenBSD knows this saves >> gobs >> of keystrokes. >> >> Merging is usually pretty easy because I don't edit system files; >> e.g. >> rc.conf is a system file where rc.conf.local is mine, so mergemaster >> doesn't touch it. But, to save time (and potential fat-finger), I'm >> thinking of trimming the new tree even more before merging. Here is a >> potential list of whacks. Is there any danger in this approach? Not sure about OpenBSD, but on FreeBSD I once accidently checked in the entire /etc/ directory. The machine was still usable enough for me to quickly check everything out again :P > that's a pretty interesting idea, didn't think about that. would it > make sense to keep your local config data in something like RCS or CVS > and write a Makefile that'll install your custom targets after an > upgrade? Or use the mergemaster hook to move all the non RCSes files to a backup directory so that mergemaster won't try to merge an old file there and instead install the new one -- *cough* OnLamp article -Bjorn From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Sun Apr 23 15:33:02 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:33:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ldconfig In-Reply-To: <67277063-880B-414D-8DC6-17F6598266A1@belovedarctos.com> References: <67277063-880B-414D-8DC6-17F6598266A1@belovedarctos.com> Message-ID: <524626D4-6972-4103-A114-1F6EFB2A0855@2xlp.com> On Apr 23, 2006, at 3:22 PM, Bjorn Nelson wrote: > Maybe you can rebuild your hints off of mine. You will probably > not need all the /usr/local entries: > bjorn at host=>ldconfig -r > /var/run/ld-elf.so.hints: > search directories: /lib:/usr/lib:/usr/lib/compat:/usr/ > X11R6/lib:/usr/local/lib:/usr/local/lib/compat/pkg:/usr/local/lib/ > apache2:/usr/local/lib/mysql:/usr/local/lib/pth tossed "/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/lib/compat:/usr/X11R6/lib:/usr/local/lib:/ usr/local/lib/compat/pkg:/usr/local/lib/apache2:/usr/local/lib/mysql:/ usr/local/lib/pth" into ld.so.conf , ( but as newline delimited) , copied it to ld-elf.so.conf, and then ran ldconfig onto that file. i'm back up and running. its messy and not the right way, but i can ssh in again (i was limited to a lucky terminal session i left on last night) From lists at stringsutils.com Sun Apr 23 15:43:59 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:43:59 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Pete Wright writes: > if you have the money i'd go with 15k RPM scsi drives in a RAID 10 > configuration. I am not sure we have money for 10K RPM scsi disks, much less 15K RPM. The issue is space.. The 300GB SCSI disks are about 4 times the cost of 7.2K RPM IDEs. The 10K RPM IDE Raptors only go to 150GB.. I think we can either go RAID 10 with 7.2K RPM 300GB IDE or RAID 5 with 10K RPM 145GB disks. I am hoping raid 5 with 7 spindles, plus going to SCSI, would make up for using raid 5 instead of 10. From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 15:48:02 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:48:02 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading openbsd In-Reply-To: <20060423191923.GC13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> <20060423191923.GC13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604231248k6ccdce19y18a63a271d915835@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/06, Pete Wright wrote: > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 01:49:19PM -0400, michael wrote: > > I frequently keep pretty up-to-date snapshots running on some of my > > OpenBSD boxes. Even though mergemaster is not in base, I use it to > > update the etc files after an upgrade. To make this process easier, I > > tend to trim the new tree before merging. Example.. on two of the > > boxes I will *never* run a web server, so, I `rm -r new_etc/var/www` > > before I even start. Anyone who upgrades OpenBSD knows this saves gobs > > of keystrokes. > > > > Merging is usually pretty easy because I don't edit system files; e.g. > > rc.conf is a system file where rc.conf.local is mine, so mergemaster > > doesn't touch it. But, to save time (and potential fat-finger), I'm > > thinking of trimming the new tree even more before merging. Here is a > > potential list of whacks. Is there any danger in this approach? > > > > that's a pretty interesting idea, didn't think about that. would it > make sense to keep your local config data in something like RCS or CVS > and write a Makefile that'll install your custom targets after an > upgrade? I do not think that would work, what happens if one of your files changes? the cvsid line would be different for example so you need to merge by hand. mergemaster will auto install anything not already in the target directory with -i, It might make more sence to have a cleanup script to delete what was installed but not wanted. This way you get all the benifite of mergemaster without the need to constantly say yes install that. something like 'rm -rf /var/www ...' or put what you want deleted in a config file and loop over it and do rm -rf $line disk is cheap. marc > > > -p > > -- > ~~oO00Oo~~ > Peter Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > www.nomadlogic.org/~pete > 310.869.9459 > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From pete at nomadlogic.org Sun Apr 23 15:50:18 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:50:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 03:43:59PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Pete Wright writes: > > >if you have the money i'd go with 15k RPM scsi drives in a RAID 10 > >configuration. > > I am not sure we have money for 10K RPM scsi disks, much less 15K RPM. The > issue is space.. The 300GB SCSI disks are about 4 times the cost of 7.2K > RPM IDEs. The 10K RPM IDE Raptors only go to 150GB.. > > I think we can either go RAID 10 with 7.2K RPM 300GB IDE or RAID 5 with 10K > RPM 145GB disks. I am hoping raid 5 with 7 spindles, plus going to SCSI, > would make up for using raid 5 instead of 10. > SATA drives are pretty good, we use them for some things although for something as critical as a database i would not trust them especially if you expecting to have frequent/large disk IO happening. have you looked at using graid3(8)? this will help maximize space and speed of your disks while providing some redundancy via a parity device. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From mspitzer at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 15:51:26 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604231251u16407410yc21f19234462f9a9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/23/06, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Pete Wright writes: > > > if you have the money i'd go with 15k RPM scsi drives in a RAID 10 > > configuration. > > I am not sure we have money for 10K RPM scsi disks, much less 15K RPM. The > issue is space.. The 300GB SCSI disks are about 4 times the cost of 7.2K RPM > IDEs. The 10K RPM IDE Raptors only go to 150GB.. > > I think we can either go RAID 10 with 7.2K RPM 300GB IDE or RAID 5 with 10K > RPM 145GB disks. I am hoping raid 5 with 7 spindles, plus going to SCSI, > would make up for using raid 5 instead of 10. Also keep in mind that most ata/sata drives are designed around a 30% duty-cycle and scsi server disks are designed around a much higher duty cycle. If you are going to be using this as a server you may have a very high failure rate in sata disks. > > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From pete at nomadlogic.org Sun Apr 23 15:52:34 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:52:34 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading openbsd In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30604231248k6ccdce19y18a63a271d915835@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> <20060423191923.GC13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <8c50a3c30604231248k6ccdce19y18a63a271d915835@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060423195234.GE13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 03:48:02PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote: > On 4/23/06, Pete Wright wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 01:49:19PM -0400, michael wrote: > > > I frequently keep pretty up-to-date snapshots running on some of my > > > OpenBSD boxes. Even though mergemaster is not in base, I use it to > > > update the etc files after an upgrade. To make this process easier, I > > > tend to trim the new tree before merging. Example.. on two of the > > > boxes I will *never* run a web server, so, I `rm -r new_etc/var/www` > > > before I even start. Anyone who upgrades OpenBSD knows this saves gobs > > > of keystrokes. > > > > > > Merging is usually pretty easy because I don't edit system files; e.g. > > > rc.conf is a system file where rc.conf.local is mine, so mergemaster > > > doesn't touch it. But, to save time (and potential fat-finger), I'm > > > thinking of trimming the new tree even more before merging. Here is a > > > potential list of whacks. Is there any danger in this approach? > > > > > > > that's a pretty interesting idea, didn't think about that. would it > > make sense to keep your local config data in something like RCS or CVS > > and write a Makefile that'll install your custom targets after an > > upgrade? > > I do not think that would work, what happens if one of your files changes? > the cvsid line would be different for example so you need to merge by hand. > true, i was thinking of using version controll+make as a replacement of mergemaster...granted you will loose some of the benefits of mergemaster. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From mspitzer at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 17:02:47 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:02:47 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] off topic but very funny Message-ID: <8c50a3c30604241402s2cb49c4cx7b99ebea00250b65@mail.gmail.com> RAISING BOYS a) For those who have grown children - this is totally hysterical! b) For those who have children past this age, this is hilarious. c) For those who have children this age, this is not funny. d) For those who have children nearing this age, this is a warning. e) For those who have not yet had children, this is birth control. The following came from an anonymous Mother in Austin, Texas: Things I've learned from my Boys (honest and not kidding): 1.) A king size waterbed holds enough water to fill a 2000 sq. ft. house 4 inches deep. 2.) If you spray hair spray on dust bunnies and run over them with roller blades, they can ignite. 3.) A 3-year old Boy's voice is louder than 200 adults in a crowded restaurant. 4.) If you hook a dog leash over a ceiling fan, the motor is not strong enough to rotate a 42 pound Boy wearing Batman underwear and a Superman cape. It is strong enough, however, if tied to a paint can, to spread paint on all four walls of a 20x20 ft. room. 5.) You should not throw baseballs up when the ceiling fan is on. When using a ceiling fan as a bat, you have to throw the ball up a few times before you get a hit. A ceiling fan can hit a baseball a long way. 6.) The glass in windows (even double-pane) doesn't stop a baseball hit by a ceiling fan. 7.) When you hear the toilet flush and the words "uh oh", it's already too late. 8.) Brake fluid mixed with Clorox makes smoke, and lots of it. 9.) A six-year old Boy can start a fire with a flint rock even though a 36-year old Man says they can only do it in the movies. 10.) Certain Lego's will pass through the digestive tract of a 4-year old Boy. 11.) Play dough and microwave should not be used in the same sentence. 12.) Super glue is forever. 13.) No matter how much Jell-O you put in a swimming pool you still can't walk on water. 14.) Pool filters do not like Jell-O. 15.) VCR's do not eject "PB & J" sandwiches even though TV commercials show they do. 16.) Garbage bags do not make good parachutes. 17.) Marbles in gas tanks make lots of noise when driving. 18.) You probably DO NOT want to know what that odor is. 19.) Always look in the oven before you turn it on; plastic toys do not like ovens. 20.) The fire department in Austin, TX has a 5-minute response time. 21.) The spin cycle on the washing machine does not make earthworms dizzy. 22.) It will, however, make cats dizzy. 23.) Cats throw up twice their body weight when dizzy. 24.) 80% of Women will pass this on to almost all of their friends, with or without kids. 25.) 80% of Men who read this will try mixing the Clorox and brake fluid. -- "We trained very hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization." -Gaius Petronius, 1st Century AD From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 25 11:12:27 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:12:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Pete Wright writes: > SATA drives are pretty good, we use them for some things although for > something as critical as a database i would not trust them especially if > you expecting to have frequent/large disk IO happening. They are not too bad on RAID 10. > looked at using graid3(8)? this will help maximize space and speed of > your disks while providing some redundancy via a parity device. But isn't that software raid? At least that what it seems (just did man graid3). We always do hardware raid. From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 25 11:33:49 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:33:49 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 11:12:27AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Pete Wright writes: > > >SATA drives are pretty good, we use them for some things although for > >something as critical as a database i would not trust them especially if > >you expecting to have frequent/large disk IO happening. > > They are not too bad on RAID 10. > you can get decent performance, but i would day they are much less reliable than SCSI disks. esp. in a DB environment where you are going to have alot of random seeks, read's and writes. we get decent throughput on long streaming I/O though... > >looked at using graid3(8)? this will help maximize space and speed of > >your disks while providing some redundancy via a parity device. > > But isn't that software raid? At least that what it seems (just did man > graid3). We always do hardware raid. yep sure is, although you can implement such a scheme with a decent hardware controller... -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From driodeiros at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 12:42:59 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:42:59 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration Message-ID: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Hi there, I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long time (four years). Fetchmail retrieves my email using pop3 against my a couple of servers (gmail and my work email). Procmail performs the filtering and puts the email in the right box. I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up having my emails in different places. The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be stored in the server. Am I right? I have consider the possibility of using thunderbird but I want to keep using mutt. My questions are: How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current configuration? What do you guys use for reading your email? Have a good day, David From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 25 12:54:33 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <59426.160.33.20.11.1145984073.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > Hi there, > > I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long > time (four years). Fetchmail retrieves my email using pop3 against > my a couple of servers (gmail and my work email). Procmail performs > the filtering and puts the email in the right box. > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > having my emails in different places. > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > stored in the server. Am I right? > > I have consider the possibility of using thunderbird but I want to keep > using mutt. > > My questions are: > > How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current > configuration? hmm...mr. google.com/bsd turns this up (first hit): http://www.shellbang.org/freebsd/imap.html this is untested so i'm not sure if this addresses your concerns... there is also a filtering lang. called "sieve" that may be worth a look. http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/sieve/ google will turn up more info on how to implement this in courier or cyrus. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From mhernandez at ocsny.com Tue Apr 25 13:01:33 2006 From: mhernandez at ocsny.com (Michael Hernandez) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:01:33 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <2EBC98A8-EE83-4B40-8C5F-510C41321505@ocsny.com> On Apr 25, 2006, at 12:42 PM, David Rio Deiros wrote: > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > having my emails in different places. > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am > going to > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > stored in the server. Am I right? > Just tell fetchmail to keep the mail on the server. I believe it's as simple as putting a "keep" command in the proper place in your fetchmailrc. Mike From lists at genoverly.net Tue Apr 25 13:09:41 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:09:41 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:42:59 -0700 David Rio Deiros wrote: > Hi there, > > I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long > time (four years). Fetchmail retrieves my email using pop3 against > my a couple of servers (gmail and my work email). Procmail performs > the filtering and puts the email in the right box. > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > having my emails in different places. > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going > to lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > stored in the server. Am I right? > > I have consider the possibility of using thunderbird but I want to > keep using mutt. > > My questions are: > > How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current > configuration? > > What do you guys use for reading your email? > > Have a good day, > > David My set up may not apply to you because I have mail services running in a colo, but it is similar to yours and was designed to scratch the same itch. My design goals were: available anywhere, relatively secure, centralized collection/archive/backup (never bring the mail local). While most of my mail comes directly to my domain, I also pull mail from multiple sources using fetchmail and gotmail. All mail is fed thru procmail, sorted, and then dropped into a virtual IMAP mailbox. I can get mail from home, the laptop on the road, a client site loaner pc, or anywhere, really. Storage and backups are done in one place. A combination of securing the connection to IMAP and SMTP kinda keep it private. Spam for the domain mail is handled on the server, but public mail service (yahoo, hotmail, etc) messages requires some handling if they can not be 'forwarded' to the domain account. I am a believer that if you truly want to control your mail you have to have some level of control over the server. If racking hardware in a colo is beyond your needs/means, then renting (even just a jail somewhere) could be in reach. -- Michael From scottro at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 25 13:39:36 2006 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:39:36 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > Hi there, > > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > having my emails in different places. > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > stored in the server. Am I right? For what it's worth, getmail enables you to use IMAP or Pop (I assume fetchmail does as well). Then, I send it to maildrop (thanks Tillman, if you see this) which filters it. This will work with both IMAP and Pop. Getmail gives you the option to remove the messages from the server or not and only download new messages. Can't you do that with fetchmail? Then, feed the downloaded stuff to procmail and leave it on the server? Or am I missing something obvious? > > > What do you guys use for reading your email? My eyes. One caveat to what I've written above is that I seldom have mail I want to save. I have a special saved mbox, however, which I do back up periodically. I hope this helps, I just have the feeling I'm missing something really obvious. - -- Scott GPG KeyID EB3467D6 ( 1B848 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Angel: She murdered a man right in front of me, and I can't even testify to that fact in a court of law. Cordelia: Well, maybe in night court you could... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFETl7Y+lTVdes0Z9YRAnYOAKCqbH1nOuqrFF+l17TOIxP8WbZiZwCfTXi9 AnzJexZxZfkKVX3l1KL98C4= =UqZd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mikel.king at ocsny.com Tue Apr 25 13:49:19 2006 From: mikel.king at ocsny.com (Mikel King) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:49:19 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <2ECAD989-E386-4072-AF72-3E9B14171110@ocsny.com> On Apr 25, 2006, at 1:09 PM, michael wrote: > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:42:59 -0700 > David Rio Deiros wrote: > >> Hi there, >> >> I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long >> time (four years). Fetchmail retrieves my email using pop3 against >> my a couple of servers (gmail and my work email). Procmail performs >> the filtering and puts the email in the right box. >> >> I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is >> removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means >> I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to >> use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up >> having my emails in different places. >> >> The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going >> to lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be >> stored in the server. Am I right? >> >> I have consider the possibility of using thunderbird but I want to >> keep using mutt. >> >> My questions are: >> >> How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current >> configuration? >> >> What do you guys use for reading your email? >> >> Have a good day, >> >> David First sorry I missed the original... Well lucky for you David IMAP is very flexible. There are numerous possibilities in the ports tree that can be used to address this situation. One of the interesting possibilities is to use a fat IMAP client like thunderchicken to access the mail account and filter your mail into various folders removing SPAM and such. Of course the down side is that you would need a workstation to constantly run his app logged in as yourself. Not really a good way to go unless you are stuck in windows land, which since you are on this list I can bet that you are not. Ok so plan two would be to use a combo of procmail and one of the IMAP sync apps in the ports tree, like isync or offlineimap. The way you slice it here really depends on your personal flare. You can have your server run procmail before it delivers to your mailbox and then use one of the sync apps to sync it local. if you do not have procmail access on the server you could actually do the reverse. Run procmail on your local and backsync to the server thus maintaining the filtering. There is also imapfilter , and you can use an updated version of fetchmail to grab you imap box. Cheers, mikel From njt at ayvali.org Tue Apr 25 13:52:22 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:52:22 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060425175222.GH27968@ayvali.org> * David Rio Deiros [2006-04-25 09:42:59 -0700]: > I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long > time (four years). I have pretty much an identical setup, but instead of fetchmail, I use getmail (see the FAQ on pyropus.ca to see why it is better than fetchmail). > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means I have > to backup the email periodically. Here's what I do: - Use procmail/mutt to file a separate copy of inbound and outbound messages. For inbound mail, the procmail rule I use is: # archive inbox :0c * $MAILDIR/archives/in For outbound mail, the mutt feature I use is: set record = "=out" - At the end of every month, I go and archive all the mail into a tar file. I do this by hand right now (so I can clean out spam that was not caught by SA and delete messages with excessively large attachments), but there is no reason why you couldn't script this. - I encrypt this file with GnuPG - I store it in three places: - on my home FreeBSD box - on a second hard disk on my home FreeBSD box (in case my hard drive gets nuked) - on a GMail account used solely for this purpose (in case New York City gets nuked - but if that happens, retrieving my old email will probably be the least of my worries hth, Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From jschauma at netmeister.org Tue Apr 25 14:19:55 2006 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:19:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425175222.GH27968@ayvali.org> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425175222.GH27968@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <20060425181955.GB15797@netmeister.org> "N.J. Thomas" wrote: > - I encrypt this file with GnuPG > > - I store it in three places: Which of course beckons the question: Where do you keep your private pgp key? :-) -Jan -- ``Life is too short to stay entirely sober.'' -- Chuck Swiger -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tillman at seekingfire.com Tue Apr 25 14:34:55 2006 From: tillman at seekingfire.com (Tillman Hodgson) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:34:55 -0600 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060425183455.GQ95286@seekingfire.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > stored in the server. Am I right? I have a very similar setup. I put the mail from a few sources, and a bunch comes a local SMTP server. I use maildrop instead of procmail, but the concept is identical. Anyway, I filter the mail into a series of Maildirs (I'm in a NFS environment). Then I use an IMAP daemon that groks Maildirs and sees them as folders. Voila, my Apple Mail client, my Squirrelmail web mail app, and mutt are all in sync. -T -- Blot out sense and sound: what do you have? From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 25 16:18:48 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:18:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: Pete Wright writes: > you can get decent performance, but i would day they are much less > reliable than SCSI disks. We run 8 disks, and keep 2 as hot spare. :-) > yep sure is, although you can implement such a scheme with a decent > hardware controller... Based on http://raid.com/04_01_03.html, I don't think I would use it as a software raid. Also this one point is a killer: "Transaction rate equal to that of a single disk drive at best (if spindles are synchronized)" From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Apr 25 16:38:06 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Memory sizing In-Reply-To: References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <40719.160.33.20.11.1145997486.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > Pete Wright writes: > >> you can get decent performance, but i would day they are much less >> reliable than SCSI disks. > > We run 8 disks, and keep 2 as hot spare. :-) > >> yep sure is, although you can implement such a scheme with a decent >> hardware controller... > > Based on http://raid.com/04_01_03.html, I don't think I would use it as a > software raid. Also this one point is a killer: > > "Transaction rate equal to that of a single disk drive at best (if > spindles > are synchronized)" > hmm...makes sense. we use it heavilly with our Autodesk Flame and Inferno systems. actually on those systems it's several stripes with parity so you still get very fast IO. i guess in your situation you would be best with something like RAID10. -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 25 17:11:27 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:11:27 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: David Rio Deiros writes: > How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current > configuration? Would something like unison, a bi-directional sync program, help you? I have 3 machines I sync with unison: + Home server + Office server/my desktop + Laptop I sync more than just mail, but the mail component is like this. Don't run fetchmail as a daemon. Keep your mail folder in sync every time you go home. Fetch from whichever place you want. Only thing about this setup is that you have to be organized and not fetch before you sync the machines. > What do you guys use for reading your email? Fetchmail+pine for pop3 and things I want to be able to read in my laptop during my commute. Cone + IMAP for everything else. If you go the synchronization route then you can do more than just sync your mail. I sync all my most commonly used folders to the laptop. Important info I sync to an encrypted partition. Anything non critical I put outside the secure partition so I don't have to bother with mounting the encrypted partition and type a 32 character long password. :-) From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Tue Apr 25 17:21:48 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:21:48 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Favor - Compile Check In-Reply-To: <40719.160.33.20.11.1145997486.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <40719.160.33.20.11.1145997486.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <0F2C994A-220B-48B9-A498-94420FBAAD03@2xlp.com> If anyone out there has a spare moment and has a- FreeBSD 6.0 ( initial ) b- FreeBSD 6.0 ( upgraded from 5.4 ) can you please try to see if /usr/ports/mail/exim-sqlite will build on your system ? There was an error w/the pthreads, it was fixed in a recent patch, but I still can't get it to build on my machine. I contacted the port maintainer. He double checked , and got it running on a 5.4 and a 6.0 machine I'm thinking that *maybe* it's because I upgraded to 6.0 from 5.4 I just want to confirm that this issue is on my machine only , before I give up on running this app. ( I tried everything, and then some, to get this to work. which led to me corrupting my linked libraries this weekend. ) Thank You. From njt at ayvali.org Tue Apr 25 18:16:20 2006 From: njt at ayvali.org (N.J. Thomas) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:16:20 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425181955.GB15797@netmeister.org> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425175222.GH27968@ayvali.org> <20060425181955.GB15797@netmeister.org> Message-ID: <20060425221620.GJ27968@ayvali.org> * Jan Schaumann [2006-04-25 14:19:55 -0400]: > "N.J. Thomas" wrote: > > - I encrypt this file with GnuPG > > - I store it in three places: > > Which of course beckons the question: Where do you keep your private > pgp key? I keep those in 2 separate locations, not the same as above. I've been thinking about not bothering with his particular procedure though because it is a bother to decrypt stuff for just pulling out old emails, and I really don't need that high a level of security on my emails. Thomas -- N.J. Thomas njt at ayvali.org Etiamsi occiderit me, in ipso sperabo From lists at stringsutils.com Tue Apr 25 19:16:43 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:16:43 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Favor - Compile Check References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <40719.160.33.20.11.1145997486.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <0F2C994A-220B-48B9-A498-94420FBAAD03@2xlp.com> Message-ID: Jonathan writes: > can you please try to see if > /usr/ports/mail/exim-sqlite Would it help you if I try it on AMD64? Anythine else I have in the 6 branch is either 6.0-stable as of sometime in January or 6.1 RC1 From okan at demirmen.com Tue Apr 25 22:48:07 2006 From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:48:07 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] upgrading openbsd In-Reply-To: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060423134919.7168f036@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <20060426024807.GA13234@clam.khaoz.org> On Sun 2006.04.23 at 13:49 -0400, michael wrote: > I frequently keep pretty up-to-date snapshots running on some of my > OpenBSD boxes. Even though mergemaster is not in base, I use it to > update the etc files after an upgrade. To make this process easier, I > tend to trim the new tree before merging. Example.. on two of the > boxes I will *never* run a web server, so, I `rm -r new_etc/var/www` > before I even start. Anyone who upgrades OpenBSD knows this saves gobs > of keystrokes. > > Merging is usually pretty easy because I don't edit system files; e.g. > rc.conf is a system file where rc.conf.local is mine, so mergemaster > doesn't touch it. But, to save time (and potential fat-finger), I'm > thinking of trimming the new tree even more before merging. Here is a > potential list of whacks. Is there any danger in this approach? not really - i have host-specific $MM_PRE_COMPARE_SCRIPT scripts. one thing i do different is still update the configs/docs for services i do not use - maybe that's a bit pedantic, but i try to keep everything sync'd, just in case i need to enable something, somewhere... > On some boxes where I run Postfix rather than Sendmail: > > 1. rm new_etc/etc/mail/* ok - i don't run postfix, so who knows... > 2. rm new_etc/etc/mailer.conf why? remember that by default, mergemaster will compare cvs tags; in the file, or format, ever changes, you'll want to know. where's the harm in letting mergemaster delete it for you? > Below, should I check if some new process requires a new user, or whack > it? I have it on this list because don't want to clobber this file by > accident. > > 3. rm new_etc/etc/master.passwd humans are an issue, i agree ;) i delete it myself, but then again i typically know if something changes in there from listening on the appropriate mailing lists. > Below, these I don't want to change or don't really need an update. > > 4. rm new_etc/etc/motd > 5. rm new_etc/etc/myname check, check > 6. rm new_etc/etc/pf.conf again, cvs tag never changes, unless something really does change. (though sometime the example are updated ;) > 7. rm new_etc/etc/sudoers check > Below, like master.passwd, should I check if there are *new* cron jobs, > or whack it? > > 8. rm new_etc/var/cron/tabs/root ok i suspect you've made decisions on others too, e.g. $TEMPROOT/var/mail/root but yea, pre/post scripts are very handy, even for some of the other things people have mention, e.g. rcs/cvs/version control cheers, okan From okan at demirmen.com Tue Apr 25 22:51:25 2006 From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:51:25 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] gmail & spamd In-Reply-To: <20060416155055.3107eb97@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060416155055.3107eb97@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <20060426025125.GB13234@clam.khaoz.org> On Sun 2006.04.16 at 15:50 -0400, michael wrote: > gmail has always been a moving target for me and my OpenBSD spamd. I > read a little snippet on misc@ that seems to help. It looks like SPF > in TXT records in DNS are getting popular. gmail lists their smtp > servers in that record so.. > > $ dig gmail.com TXT +short | tr "\ " "\n" | \ > grep ^ip4: | cut -d: -f2 > /mywhite_gmail > > ..will put all gmail mail servers out to a file. I can then add that > table my pf rules. I could probably add all the mail giants to this > table too. ..aside from allowing all gmail mail into my server.. [grin] > > Is there any danger in this? i suppose not, however after pulling gmail's spf list, it doesn't quite match my current reality - i've got spamd whitelisted ip's (spamdb) from blocks NOT in those advertised in dns; of course, some do overlap. either way, it's not a danger, but not foolproof. From tux at penguinnetwerx.net Wed Apr 26 00:19:08 2006 From: tux at penguinnetwerx.net (Kevin Reiter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:19:08 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Favor - Compile Check In-Reply-To: <0F2C994A-220B-48B9-A498-94420FBAAD03@2xlp.com> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <40719.160.33.20.11.1145997486.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <0F2C994A-220B-48B9-A498-94420FBAAD03@2xlp.com> Message-ID: <444EF4BC.3040807@penguinnetwerx.net> Jonathan wrote: > If anyone out there has a spare moment and has > > a- FreeBSD 6.0 ( initial ) > b- FreeBSD 6.0 ( upgraded from 5.4 ) > > can you please try to see if > > /usr/ports/mail/exim-sqlite > > will build on your system ? > > There was an error w/the pthreads, it was fixed in a recent patch, > but I still can't get it to build on my machine. > > I contacted the port maintainer. He double checked , and got it > running on a 5.4 and a 6.0 machine > > I'm thinking that *maybe* it's because I upgraded to 6.0 from 5.4 > > I just want to confirm that this issue is on my machine only , before > I give up on running this app. ( I tried everything, and then some, > to get this to work. which led to me corrupting my linked libraries > this weekend. ) > > Thank You. Worked fine for me on a straight 6.0-RELEASE build from scratch: root at chronos [/usr/ports/mail/exim-sqlite]# make => exim-4.61.tar.bz2 doesn't seem to exist in /usr/ports/distfiles/exim. >>> exim binary built root at chronos [/usr/ports/mail/exim-sqlite]# make install Don't forget to add 'exim_enable="YES"' to rc.conf(5) ===> Compressing manual pages for exim-sqlite-4.61_1 ===> Registering installation for exim-sqlite-4.61_1 ===> SECURITY REPORT: This port has installed the following binaries which execute with increased privileges. /usr/local/sbin/exim-4.61-1 This port has installed the following files which may act as network servers and may therefore pose a remote security risk to the system. /usr/local/sbin/exim-4.61-1 This port has installed the following startup scripts which may cause these network services to be started at boot time. /usr/local/etc/rc.d/exim.sh If there are vulnerabilities in these programs there may be a security risk to the system. FreeBSD makes no guarantee about the security of ports included in the Ports Collection. Please type 'make deinstall' to deinstall the port if this is a concern. For more information, and contact details about the security status of this software, see the following webpage: http://www.exim.org/ root at chronos [/usr/ports/mail/exim-sqlite]# uname -a FreeBSD chronos.unixfun.net 6.0-RELEASE FreeBSD 6.0-RELEASE #0: Sun Mar 5 01:00:21 EST 2006 root at chronos.unixfun.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/Chronos i386 Welcome :) From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:44:05 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:44:05 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> Message-ID: <20060426064405.GA27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 01:39:36PM -0400, Scott wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > > having my emails in different places. > > > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > > stored in the server. Am I right? > > For what it's worth, getmail enables you to use IMAP or Pop (I assume > fetchmail does as well). Then, I send it to maildrop (thanks Tillman, > if you see this) which filters it. Yes, fetchmail supports IMAP, but correct me if I am wrong, either if you use pop or imap, fetchmail will deliver individual emails to procmail so you lose the IMAP folders, right? You say that procmail passes the emails to maildrop, all of them will go to the same folder right? > This will work with both IMAP and > Pop. Getmail gives you the option to remove the messages from the > server or not and only download new messages. Good to know. Yes I am already reviewing getmail. It looks very promissing. > Can't you do that with fetchmail? Yes, but as far as I know, if you keep the emails in the server the next time you fetch your mailbox, fetchmail will retrieve the old ones and the new ones. At least that happend with pop. > Then, feed the downloaded stuff to > procmail and leave it on the server? Or am I missing something > obvious? No, I am probably the one missing stuff here. Thanks, David From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:44:25 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:44:25 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <20060426064425.GB27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 01:09:41PM -0400, michael wrote: > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:42:59 -0700 > David Rio Deiros wrote: > > > Hi there, > > > > I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long > > time (four years). Fetchmail retrieves my email using pop3 against > > my a couple of servers (gmail and my work email). Procmail performs > > the filtering and puts the email in the right box. > > > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > > having my emails in different places. Thanks all for your replies! > While most of my mail comes directly to my domain, I also pull mail from > multiple sources using fetchmail and gotmail. All mail is fed thru > procmail, sorted, and then dropped into a virtual IMAP mailbox. Um.. can you be more precise here? I guess you, for example, filter with procmail the emails from this mailing list, do you drop these emails to an specific directory/folder in the mailbox? If so, how do you do that? > I am a believer that if you truly want to control your mail you have to > have some level of control over the server. If racking hardware > in a colo is beyond your needs/means, then renting (even just a jail > somewhere) could be in reach. I agree. Unfortunately this is not my case at the moment. I hope to change that soon. Thanks again, David From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:44:42 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:44:42 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> Message-ID: <20060426064442.GC27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 01:39:36PM -0400, Scott wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > > having my emails in different places. > > > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > > stored in the server. Am I right? > > For what it's worth, getmail enables you to use IMAP or Pop (I assume > fetchmail does as well). Then, I send it to maildrop (thanks Tillman, > if you see this) which filters it. This is the step that I don't understand. First, what does getmail or fetchmail do when you retrieve using IMAP instead of pop? Do you have a maildir structure? > This will work with both IMAP and > Pop. Getmail gives you the option to remove the messages from the > server or not and only download new messages. > > Can't you do that with fetchmail? Then, feed the downloaded stuff to > procmail and leave it on the server? Or am I missing something > obvious? > > > > > > What do you guys use for reading your email? > > My eyes. > > One caveat to what I've written above is that I seldom have mail I want > to save. I have a special saved mbox, however, which I do back up > periodically. > > I hope this helps, I just have the feeling I'm missing something really > obvious. From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:45:10 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:45:10 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <2ECAD989-E386-4072-AF72-3E9B14171110@ocsny.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> <2ECAD989-E386-4072-AF72-3E9B14171110@ocsny.com> Message-ID: <20060426064510.GD27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 01:49:19PM -0400, Mikel King wrote: > > On Apr 25, 2006, at 1:09 PM, michael wrote: > > >On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:42:59 -0700 > >David Rio Deiros wrote: > > > >>Hi there, > >> > >>I have been using mutt + fetchmail + procmail + msmtp for quite long > >>time (four years). Fetchmail retrieves my email using pop3 against > >>my a couple of servers (gmail and my work email). Procmail performs > >>the filtering and puts the email in the right box. > >> > >>I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > >>removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > >>I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > >>use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > >>having my emails in different places. > >> > >>The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going > >>to lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > >>stored in the server. Am I right? > >> > >>I have consider the possibility of using thunderbird but I want to > >>keep using mutt. > >> > >>My questions are: > >> > >>How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current > >>configuration? > >> > >>What do you guys use for reading your email? > >> > >>Have a good day, > >> > >>David > > Ok so plan two would be to use a combo of procmail and one of the > IMAP sync apps in the ports tree, like isync or offlineimap. There is something that I don't understand, How do you instruct procmail to deliver the email in an specific folder. It is easy if you use a mailbox structure but in this case I would have a maildir directory structure. > There is also imapfilter , and you can use an updated version of > fetchmail to grab you imap box. Does that include all the folders created in your imap box? Thanks, David From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:45:55 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:45:55 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> Message-ID: <20060426064555.GE27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 01:39:36PM -0400, Scott wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > > Hi there, > > > > > > I see a problem with this configuration though: All my email is > > removed from the server and is stored in my laptop, which means > > I have to backup the email periodically. Also, I always have to > > use my laptop to read/retrieve my email otherwise I would end up > > having my emails in different places. > > > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > > stored in the server. Am I right? > > For what it's worth, getmail enables you to use IMAP or Pop (I assume > fetchmail does as well). Then, I send it to maildrop (thanks Tillman, > if you see this) which filters it. This will work with both IMAP and > Pop. > Getmail gives you the option to remove the messages from the > server or not and only download new messages. I am checking getmail. > Can't you do that with fetchmail? Then, feed the downloaded stuff to > procmail and leave it on the server? Or am I missing something > obvious? Let me be more specific about my current configuration: 1. fetchmail fetches email form different domains using POP 2. it passes the emails to procmail which process them and puts them in specific files. Inbox, Groups/group1, groups/group2, netbsd/users etc.... 3. I use mutt to browse read the email. I could probably instruct fetchmail to keep the emails in the server, I may even be able to make fetchmail retrieve only the new email (I am not so sure about this one). But the problem is that if I use this same configuration to check my email from another machine I am going to have my email spread in different machines/homes. > > What do you guys use for reading your email? > > My eyes. :) > One caveat to what I've written above is that I seldom have mail I want > to save. I have a special saved mbox, however, which I do back up > periodically. Well, In my case I just keep all my email. Mailing-list, Inbox, work, everything. > I hope this helps, I just have the feeling I'm missing something really > obvious. Yeah it helps. Thanks. David From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:46:07 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:46:07 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060425183455.GQ95286@seekingfire.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425183455.GQ95286@seekingfire.com> Message-ID: <20060426064607.GF27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 12:34:55PM -0600, Tillman Hodgson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > > The logical solution seems to be IMAP. But if I use IMAP, I am going to > > lose all the procmail filtering magic since the email will be > > stored in the server. Am I right? > > I use maildrop instead of procmail, but > the concept is identical. > Anyway, I filter the mail into a series of Maildirs (I'm in a NFS > environment). Then I use an IMAP daemon that groks Maildirs and sees > them as folders. Voila, my Apple Mail client, my Squirrelmail web mail > app, and mutt are all in sync. Ok.. I think this is what I was looking for... almost. Since you have access to your server you can process your email as soon is received by your SMTP server. This is not my case. With this answer and the other ones I think I may have a partial solution. I will have to use some IMAP sync like isync as you guys suggested. I have to email accounts: gmail and atwork.com. 1. read the email using fetcmail or getmail and then pass that to a filter program (probably maildrop) 2. Maildrop would filter and create maildirs depending on the filter rules: $HOME/Mail /gmail/maildir_inbox /gmail/maildir_mailinglist1 /gmail/maildir_mailinglist2 ... /atwork/maildir_inbox /atwork/maildir_filter1 /atwork/maildir_filter2 ... 3. syncronize the gmail directory against the gamil IMAP server and do the same with at work. 4. Fire mutt or whatever mailclient I want to read my email. Umm... I still don't like this solution since I would have to run steps 1-3 all the time. David From driodeiros at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 02:48:18 2006 From: driodeiros at gmail.com (David Rio Deiros) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:48:18 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> Message-ID: <20060426064818.GG27570@milhouse.is04607.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 05:11:27PM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > David Rio Deiros writes: > > >How can I add some ubiquity without losing the benefits of my current > >configuration? > > Would something like unison, a bi-directional sync program, help you? > > I have 3 machines I sync with unison: > + Home server > + Office server/my desktop > + Laptop > > I sync more than just mail, but the mail component is like this. > Don't run fetchmail as a daemon. > Keep your mail folder in sync every time you go home. > Fetch from whichever place you want. > Only thing about this setup is that you have to be organized and not fetch That's the problem. I cannot count with that. But yes, unison is a very interesting tool that I would use to keep some other parts of my /home synchronized. David From scottro at nyc.rr.com Wed Apr 26 06:32:03 2006 From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:32:03 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060426064405.GA27570@milhouse.is04607.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425173936.GB56761@uws1.starlofashions.com> <20060426064405.GA27570@milhouse.is04607.com> Message-ID: <20060426103203.GD17414@mail.scottro.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 11:44:05PM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 01:39:36PM -0400, Scott wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:42:59AM -0700, David Rio Deiros wrote: > > > Hi there, > > > > > > > > > > For what it's worth, getmail enables you to use IMAP or Pop (I assume > > fetchmail does as well). Then, I send it to maildrop (thanks Tillman, > > if you see this) which filters it. > > Yes, fetchmail supports IMAP, but correct me if I am wrong, either if > you use pop or imap, fetchmail will deliver individual emails to > procmail so you lose the IMAP folders, right? You say that procmail > passes the emails to maildrop, all of them will go to the same folder > right? Hrrm, I might have have mistyped. (I've already snipped my post and too lazy to hit u a few times.) Getmail will take the mail and give it to maildrop (or give it to procmail if you prefer.) Getmail is similar to fetchmail and maildrop similar to procmail. Getmail will also only get new mail, leaving old mail on the server. Hrrm, I suppose you could do this with POP as well as IMAP. Some of the other solutions given seem more sophisticated. What I had in mind was leaving everything, unfiltered, on the server. > > > This will work with both IMAP and > > Pop. Getmail gives you the option to remove the messages from the > > server or not and only download new messages. > > Good to know. Yes I am already reviewing getmail. It looks very > promissing. I have a couple of pages on it, covering simple setups (not covering this particular situation, more quick start guides.) http://qnd-guides.org/qnd-getmail.html is the the quick and dirty one with links to other pages. > > > Can't you do that with fetchmail? > > Yes, but as far as I know, if you keep the emails in the server the > next time you fetch your mailbox, fetchmail will retrieve the old > ones and the new ones. At least that happend with pop. > Ok, getmail has the read_all parameter somewhere (see the examples) which ~should~ do what you want. - -- Scott Robbins PGP keyID EB3467D6 ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 ) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6 Faith: You can't trust guys. Buffy: You can trust some guys. Really, I've read about them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFET0wj+lTVdes0Z9YRAowRAJ9MJMuEU6BVbYVIH6sQ6tBqWXNefwCfSq7p 1wVbrhVgl2LFkW5NGXbpyrY= =S4m6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lists at genoverly.net Wed Apr 26 07:39:55 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 07:39:55 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060426064425.GB27570@milhouse.is04607.com> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> <20060426064425.GB27570@milhouse.is04607.com> Message-ID: <20060426073955.788dca58@wit.genoverly.home> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:44:25 -0700 David Rio Deiros wrote: > Um.. can you be more precise here? I guess you, for example, filter > with procmail the emails from this mailing list, do you drop these > emails to an specific directory/folder in the mailbox? If so, how > do you do that? Yes, with a very simple procmail recipe. :0 * ^(To|Cc):.*(talk|announce-nycbug)@lists\.nycbug\.org $HOME/.lists.nycbug.talk/ -- Michael From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Wed Apr 26 12:34:18 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:34:18 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Favor - Compile Check In-Reply-To: <444EF4BC.3040807@penguinnetwerx.net> References: <20060422180950.GA9335@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423190719.GA13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060423195018.GD13760@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <20060425153345.GA85821@sunset.nomadlogic.org> <40719.160.33.20.11.1145997486.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <0F2C994A-220B-48B9-A498-94420FBAAD03@2xlp.com> <444EF4BC.3040807@penguinnetwerx.net> Message-ID: <71547E91-9649-497E-A01C-29C36B014337@2xlp.com> On Apr 26, 2006, at 12:19 AM, Kevin Reiter wrote: > Worked fine for me on a straight 6.0-RELEASE build from scratch: Thanks a ton. I suspect then it has something to do with upgrading from 5.4 -> 6.0. From stucchi at willystudios.com Thu Apr 27 17:55:20 2006 From: stucchi at willystudios.com (Massimiliano Stucchi) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:55:20 +0200 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Going to BSDCan Message-ID: <20060427215520.GD31723@willystudios.com> Hi All, as some of you may know, I'll be going to BSDCan to hold a tutorial about VoIP and FreeBSD. The route I'm taking from Italy involves flying to NYC, since it costs me half the price it would cost to fly all the way to Ottawa... I'm travelling with (hopefully, if passports will be ready) other two Italian guys, and since we've had problems finding somebody to travel with, we're now going to rent a car and drive up by ourselves. Looking at quotes we can get, we can have a 7-seats car with a few dollars more than the 4-seats one we're going to get. So, my first question is: I_s there anybody wanting to share a ride with us up to Ottawa ? Any last-timer out there ? Just in case... is there anybody already with the idea of driving up who can take 2-3 Italians on his car ? Ciao ! -- Massimiliano Stucchi WillyStudios.com stucchi at willystudios.com Http://www.willystudios.com/max/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From george at galis.org Sun Apr 30 13:17:40 2006 From: george at galis.org (George Georgalis) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:17:40 -0400 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Introducing some ubiquity to my email configuration In-Reply-To: <20060426073955.788dca58@wit.genoverly.home> References: <20060425164259.GA26145@milhouse.digitaria.com> <20060425130941.7a52c2ed@wit.genoverly.home> <20060426064425.GB27570@milhouse.is04607.com> <20060426073955.788dca58@wit.genoverly.home> Message-ID: <20060430171739.GD5345@sta.duo> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 07:39:55AM -0400, michael wrote: >On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:44:25 -0700 >David Rio Deiros wrote: > >> Um.. can you be more precise here? I guess you, for example, filter >> with procmail the emails from this mailing list, do you drop these >> emails to an specific directory/folder in the mailbox? If so, how >> do you do that? > >Yes, with a very simple procmail recipe. > >:0 >* ^(To|Cc):.*(talk|announce-nycbug)@lists\.nycbug\.org >$HOME/.lists.nycbug.talk/ Here's another recipe, I remove the subject add-on, then I use safecat do deliver it in my maildir, using the main dir vs the tmp dir, the advantage of that is the main dir gets the mtime updated, so you can sort maildirs according to time of last delivery. :0 f * ^Sender:.*talk-bounces at lists.nycbug.org | sed -e '/^Subject:.*\[nycbug-talk\]/s/\[nycbug-talk\] //g' :0 a |safecat bsd-nycbug bsd-nycbug/new I use ^Sender to help filter mail addressed to both me and the list, to my personal and list mailboxes. Addressing the bigger question in the thread. I use my smtpd to deliver to the maildir(s) in my user account on the same machine (I do also pop to the same maildirs for some accounts). Then I use ssh (when I'm remote) to access mutt on that host. The limitation is I can only see my mail when I have an internet connection (or my server is localhost!). // George -- George Georgalis, systems architect, administrator < http://galis.org/ cell:646-331-2027 mailto:george at galis.org