From spork at bway.net Mon Dec 4 18:20:29 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 18:20:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] how to "watch" a file? Message-ID: Hi all, I'm still tracking down a really weird problem, and each time I think I've got a line on the cause, it turns out to be a dead end. In short, I've got a mail "toaster" running qmail w/vpopmail. It's a pretty simple setup that leverages qmail's weird "-" aliasing. It calls it's own delivery agent to handle final delivery. All messages are stored in Maildir format, and quotas are enforced using the mechanism in Maildir++ which relies on size info being stored in a file called "maildirsize" in the root of the user's Maildir. Problem: Something is messing with this file and leaving it owned by root. This breaks all sorts of things (overquota users can get more mail, imapd won't read it and report the quota in webmail, and other oddities). I thought that I'd caught qmail-local running as root, which it should never, ever do. But that may not be it as I have a wrapper in place that will bail and log if it's called as root. So far I'm not seeing it trip, but I'm still seeing some users ending up with a root-owned maildirsize file. I want to take a different approach - I've got some overquota/locked users that this happens to all the time. Is there something I can put in the maildirsize location that will look/act like a file, but is not a file? Something that would record what process touched it and as who? Any other ways to "watch" a file and record the above info each time it's manipulated? Thanks, Charles From chsnyder at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 11:54:04 2006 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:54:04 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [announce] NYCBUG-NYPHP Holiday Party In-Reply-To: <45760DF8.5040601@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <45760DF8.5040601@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: Suspenders Restaurant Thursday, December 7, 2006 6 pm until 9 pm For the sake of other clueless folks (or maybe I'm it), could someone drop the address and cross-streets of Suspenders? Thanks! From lists at zaunere.com Wed Dec 6 12:03:22 2006 From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:03:22 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [announce] NYCBUG-NYPHP Holiday Party In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005a01c71958$70017a70$6a0aa8c0@MobileZ> csnyder wrote on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:54 AM: > Suspenders Restaurant > Thursday, December 7, 2006 > 6 pm until 9 pm > > > For the sake of other clueless folks (or maybe I'm it), could someone > drop the address and cross-streets of Suspenders? hah - why, because their site is down? :) http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?areaid=0&restaurantid=2238&ne ighborhoodid=0&cuisineid=9 It's down stairs, as if you're going into the 4/5 subway entrance on the west side of broadway, immediately after the trinity church. H From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Dec 6 12:04:14 2006 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George R.) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:04:14 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fwd: [announce] NYCBUG-NYPHP Holiday Party In-Reply-To: References: <45760DF8.5040601@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <4576F80E.9050407@ceetonetechnology.com> csnyder wrote: > Suspenders Restaurant > Thursday, December 7, 2006 > 6 pm until 9 pm > > > For the sake of other clueless folks (or maybe I'm it), could someone by Thames street. . . above Wall Street. g From af.dingo at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:05:39 2006 From: af.dingo at gmail.com (Jeff Quast) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:05:39 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] how to "watch" a file? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/4/06, Charles Sprickman wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm still tracking down a really weird problem, and each time I think I've > got a line on the cause, it turns out to be a dead end. > > In short, I've got a mail "toaster" running qmail w/vpopmail. It's a > pretty simple setup that leverages qmail's weird "-" aliasing. It calls > it's own delivery agent to handle final delivery. All messages are stored > in Maildir format, and quotas are enforced using the mechanism in > Maildir++ which relies on size info being stored in a file called > "maildirsize" in the root of the user's Maildir. > > Problem: Something is messing with this file and leaving it owned by > root. This breaks all sorts of things (overquota users can get more mail, > imapd won't read it and report the quota in webmail, and other oddities). > > I thought that I'd caught qmail-local running as root, which it should > never, ever do. But that may not be it as I have a wrapper in place that > will bail and log if it's called as root. So far I'm not seeing it trip, > but I'm still seeing some users ending up with a root-owned maildirsize > file. > > I want to take a different approach - I've got some overquota/locked users > that this happens to all the time. Is there something I can put in the > maildirsize location that will look/act like a file, but is not a file? > Something that would record what process touched it and as who? > > Any other ways to "watch" a file and record the above info each time it's > manipulated? > > Thanks, > > Charles I may not fully understand your question, but I would probobly do something like (psuedo-code not tested probobly needs work!): file=/usr/home/some/maildir oldstate=$(stat ${file}) while [ 0 ]; do state="$(stat $file)" if [ X"$state" != X"$oldstate" ]; then fstat ${file} exit fi oldstate="${state}" done I'm not sure it'll be fast enough to "catch" the perpetrator , but its worth a shot. There should be some sort of tool that holds a fifo or pipe, blocks stdin from writing until it can fstat and know the perpetrator, then let it finish. Or you could write one with the help of aup book... From nikolai at fetissov.org Wed Dec 6 18:28:14 2006 From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 18:28:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSD Holiday Party Message-ID: <59260.67.86.63.51.1165447694.squirrel@www.geekisp.com> Folks, I can't make it to the party tomorrow. So no audio of the talks, sorry :( If anybody wants to pick this up, I'd be glad to post the recordings on my site. -- nikolai From george at ceetonetechnology.com Wed Dec 6 18:35:10 2006 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George R.) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:35:10 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSD Holiday Party In-Reply-To: <59260.67.86.63.51.1165447694.squirrel@www.geekisp.com> References: <59260.67.86.63.51.1165447694.squirrel@www.geekisp.com> Message-ID: <457753AE.7030209@ceetonetechnology.com> nikolai wrote: > Folks, > I can't make it to the party tomorrow. > So no audio of the talks, sorry :( > If anybody wants to pick this up, > I'd be glad to post the recordings > on my site. I suspect that we don't *want* audio tomorrow. g From mspitzer at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 22:23:15 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 22:23:15 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] NYCBSD Holiday Party In-Reply-To: <457753AE.7030209@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <59260.67.86.63.51.1165447694.squirrel@www.geekisp.com> <457753AE.7030209@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612061923i4b1a1dfq3d392f27adf4e17@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/06, George R. wrote: > nikolai wrote: > > Folks, > > I can't make it to the party tomorrow. > > So no audio of the talks, sorry :( > > If anybody wants to pick this up, > > I'd be glad to post the recordings > > on my site. > > I suspect that we don't *want* audio tomorrow. > evidence might be, ummm, bad. marc > g > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Mon Dec 11 09:15:58 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (Dru) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:15:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] soupermail Message-ID: <20061211091110.H627@dru.domain.org> I have a non-technical client who wants to integrate soupermail (http://soupermail.sourceforge.net/manual.html) into his current web/mail setup. Any Perl/CGI people interested in a one-off job and with the time to perform it this week? If so, email me off list for contact details. Cheers, Dru From anthony.elizondo at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 10:09:35 2006 From: anthony.elizondo at gmail.com (Anthony Elizondo) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:09:35 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Updating a port Message-ID: I'd like to update a port (lang/jruby) and I'm looking for a mentor. I've read the Porter's Handbook and I think I mostly understand what is going on. I've never worked with ports before. For updating one, what should the first step be? Should I copy /usr/ports/lang/jruby to another directory and start modifying stuff, or should I just start fresh, considering the port is a few versions old (0.5.3 to 0.9.2)? Thanks. Anthony From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Dec 12 10:58:55 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:58:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] Updating a port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16116.160.33.20.11.1165939135.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > I'd like to update a port (lang/jruby) and I'm looking for a mentor. > I've read the Porter's Handbook and I think I mostly understand what > is going on. > > I've never worked with ports before. For updating one, what should the > first step be? Should I copy /usr/ports/lang/jruby to another > directory and start modifying stuff, or should I just start fresh, > considering the port is a few versions old (0.5.3 to 0.9.2)? > The first thing I would do would be to import the current branch of the jruby tree into a source code management repository like subversion or CVS, this should help you create patches against the FreeBSD tree. the ports tree is available publicly from FreeBSD mirrors via CVS. next, i would get in touch with the port maintainer to see if the modifications you have in mind are already being worked on. if not i'm sure the maintainer will be willing to help you with specific issues you may run into. it looks like: knu at freebsd.org is the current maintainer. HTH. -pete -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 12 16:59:06 2006 From: dlavigne6 at sympatico.ca (Dru) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:59:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] jail/snapshot question Message-ID: <20061212165657.B627@dru.domain.org> This question came up at the LISA booth and I'm sure someone on this list has already been there/done that. If you use mksnap_ffs to take a snapshot on a jailed system, is each jail considered a separate filesystem (and therefore can have its own unique snapshot) or will the snapshot still be of the entire filesystem (say, /usr)? Cheers, Dru From pete at nomadlogic.org Tue Dec 12 17:18:15 2006 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] jail/snapshot question In-Reply-To: <20061212165657.B627@dru.domain.org> References: <20061212165657.B627@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <24878.160.33.20.11.1165961895.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> > > This question came up at the LISA booth and I'm sure someone on this list > has already been there/done that. If you use mksnap_ffs to take a snapshot > on a jailed system, is each jail considered a separate filesystem (and > therefore can have its own unique snapshot) or will the snapshot still be > of the entire filesystem (say, /usr)? > wow, that's a good one dru! i'm betting that if you take the snapshot from the master is will grab the entire filesystem regardless if jails exist in them or not. but running mksnap_ffs inside a jail'd environment - that's a good one.... -p -- ~~oO00Oo~~ Peter Wright pete at nomadlogic.org www.nomadlogic.org/~pete 310.869.9459 From af.dingo at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:24:22 2006 From: af.dingo at gmail.com (Jeff Quast) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:24:22 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> Message-ID: On 10/17/06, Miles Nordin wrote: > >>>>> "njt" == N J Thomas writes: > > njt> All in all, their position is quite reasonable and it's > njt> disheartening to see Linux and FreeBSD devs take such a > njt> nonchalant attitude towards the problem. > > The atheros blob is a particular harmful case of this. the ath_hal > shipped in FreeBSD, Linux, and NetBSD is built by Sam Leffler who has > signed an NDA with Atheros. I suspect that Atheros considers Sam > ``tainted'' by the sight of their code and probably insisted in their > NDA that he give up his right to work on the OpenBSD driver, which is > blob-free. He's therefore glad to build a blob for anything you want > if it will convince you to avoid Reyk's open HAL. > > Unfortunately the builds of the HAL Sam does are quite crappy and > prone to regressions. Since there is no way for anyone but Sam to > separate bugfix changes to the HAL from experimental-feature changes > to the HAL, he has turned the free software community into his > playground of captive beta testers. We cannot do our own release > engineering---we can only accept whatever piece-of-crap blob he chucks > at us and beta-test it for the benefit of his employer. > > Wireless has become all but unuseable on free operating systems thanks > to a couple arcane decisions by a very small number of people. We > really need a permanent way out of this disaster. Sorry for chiming in so late, but for the non-openbsd users who are interested in this topic, two presentations were since published by the openbsd team, jsg's http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-drivers deraadt's http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs On your note of wireless becoming unusable on free operating systems, http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/mgp00014.html Any OS can use any piece of any of these drivers. An open source GPL licensed wireless driver is like a "look but don't touch" driver for every non-linux OS out there. Obfuscated code written under an NDA is even worse. "Thanks for nothing" comes to mind. The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the cause of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it to work" is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 10:17:33 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: > The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out > there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the cause > of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it to work" > is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. I just want it to work is a perfectly reasonable attitude for an end user to have. I as an end user need wireless on my laptop this is how I do it. Now this is how I do it is the interesting bit, do I use a blob or just install windows or linux? All three work and I need wireless, I do not need xBSD nearly as much. If some one wants to provide a different alternitive, open source driver for example, fine but t it is not on the table yet is it? marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From lists at genoverly.net Thu Dec 14 11:12:00 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:12:00 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061214111200.6887c957@dt.genoverly.com> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500 "Marc Spitzer" wrote: > On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: > > The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out > > there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the > > cause of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it > > to work" is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. > > I just want it to work is a perfectly reasonable attitude for an end > user to have. I as an end user need wireless on my laptop this is how > I do it. Now this is how I do it is the interesting bit, do I use a > blob or just install windows or linux? All three work and I need > wireless, I do not need xBSD nearly as much. If some one wants to > provide a different alternitive, open source driver for example, fine > but t it is not on the table yet is it? > > marc I have wireless in my laptop and an AP at home. I run OpenBSD and "it just works". Frankly, we don't need xBSD or wireless or anything *that* badly. But when we do, we have choices. As a user (and like the above post), I paid for the hardware and want to use it. I support the spirit behind open source drivers and chose not to use binary drivers. I chose a model by a vendor that has provided documentation and is supported by the project. While I see/hear the argument to blindly accept binary drivers, I don't understand the choice to do so... as per reasons stated already. Nobody is forcing anyone to make the choice of using binary drivers.. people make that choice on their own. And, as stated by many, to the detriment of others. I had a choice; and after careful thought, believe I made the right one. You have a choice. -- michael From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 12:26:43 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:26:43 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: <20061214111200.6887c957@dt.genoverly.com> References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> <20061214111200.6887c957@dt.genoverly.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612140926n48c9715blfce06c270fda8cf2@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/06, michael wrote: > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500 > "Marc Spitzer" wrote: > > > On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: > > > The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out > > > there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the > > > cause of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it > > > to work" is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. > > > > I just want it to work is a perfectly reasonable attitude for an end > > user to have. I as an end user need wireless on my laptop this is how > > I do it. Now this is how I do it is the interesting bit, do I use a > > blob or just install windows or linux? All three work and I need > > wireless, I do not need xBSD nearly as much. If some one wants to > > provide a different alternitive, open source driver for example, fine > > but t it is not on the table yet is it? > > > > marc > > I have wireless in my laptop and an AP at home. I run OpenBSD and "it > just works". > > Frankly, we don't need xBSD or wireless or anything *that* badly. But > when we do, we have choices. As a user (and like the above post), I > paid for the hardware and want to use it. I support the spirit behind > open source drivers and chose not to use binary drivers. > > I chose a model by a vendor that has provided documentation and is > supported by the project. > > While I see/hear the argument to blindly accept binary drivers, I don't > understand the choice to do so... as per reasons stated already. Nobody > is forcing anyone to make the choice of using binary drivers.. people > make that choice on their own. And, as stated by many, to the > detriment of others. > > I had a choice; and after careful thought, believe I made the right one. > > You have a choice. > I am talking about users, myself when I put on my user hat as well. And when wearing that hat I want web/email to just work. That includes the network as well. Now most of the time I like playing with computers, poking around in the kernel etc, but sometimes I just need things to work. If blobs, or even windows, get things to work as I need it to then that is what I do that is all. If you need to do all kinds of leg work, upto compiling a custom OS, to get things running then by the meer fact of you doing this you are not an end user nor are you behaving as one. marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From wes at sagesecure.com Thu Dec 14 14:13:31 2006 From: wes at sagesecure.com (Wes Sonnenreich) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:13:31 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30612140926n48c9715blfce06c270fda8cf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> <20061214111200.6887c957@dt.genoverly.com> <8c50a3c30612140926n48c9715blfce06c270fda8cf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4581A25B.10409@sagesecure.com> Marc Spitzer wrote: > On 12/14/06, michael wrote: >> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500 >> "Marc Spitzer" wrote: >> >>> On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: >>>> The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out >>>> there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the >>>> cause of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it >>>> to work" is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. >>> I just want it to work is a perfectly reasonable attitude for an end >>> user to have. I as an end user need wireless on my laptop this is how >>> I do it. Now this is how I do it is the interesting bit, do I use a >>> blob or just install windows or linux? All three work and I need >>> wireless, I do not need xBSD nearly as much. If some one wants to >>> provide a different alternitive, open source driver for example, fine >>> but t it is not on the table yet is it? >>> >>> marc >> I have wireless in my laptop and an AP at home. I run OpenBSD and "it >> just works". >> >> Frankly, we don't need xBSD or wireless or anything *that* badly. But >> when we do, we have choices. As a user (and like the above post), I >> paid for the hardware and want to use it. I support the spirit behind >> open source drivers and chose not to use binary drivers. >> >> I chose a model by a vendor that has provided documentation and is >> supported by the project. >> >> While I see/hear the argument to blindly accept binary drivers, I don't >> understand the choice to do so... as per reasons stated already. Nobody >> is forcing anyone to make the choice of using binary drivers.. people >> make that choice on their own. And, as stated by many, to the >> detriment of others. >> >> I had a choice; and after careful thought, believe I made the right one. >> >> You have a choice. >> > > I am talking about users, myself when I put on my user hat as well. > And when wearing that hat I want web/email to just work. That > includes the network as well. Now most of the time I like playing > with computers, poking around in the kernel etc, but sometimes I just > need things to work. If blobs, or even windows, get things to work as > I need it to then that is what I do that is all. If you need to do > all kinds of leg work, upto compiling a custom OS, to get things > running then by the meer fact of you doing this you are not an end > user nor are you behaving as one. > > marc The real issue, IMHO, is whether the various distributions are staying true to their overall goals with the choices they are making. OpenBSD has clearly evolved into a "purity play", and really doesn't seem to care if only 10 people in the world use it, as long as the whole thing is free and secure. Thus, it is clearly acting in line with its goals. Windows is obviously in line with M$ goals, I will restrain from elaborating. Most major Linux distro vendors seem to be trying to provide a Windows replacement/alternative/compatible platform, and NOT really trying to provide free and open anything anymore (when it happens it's a side effect), I would say that their use of blobs is generally in line with their goals (making the end-user experience as simple as possible). The question is, what are the goals of Free/NetBSD and how does the use of blobs fit in? If the goal is to provide a simple and effective way for unix-curious people to learn about the benefits, then blobs do make sense. Nothing shuts down curiosity like hardware compatibility issues. If, on the other hand, the goal is to provide a highly efficient and stable platform for server applications; well, people will buy appropriate hardware if they know the end result will be worth while. In this case, the use of blobs contradicts the goal. I certainly don't want to plan around building a FreeBSD server only to find that I'm getting performance hits because of a crap driver that nobody can fix. Wes From carton at Ivy.NET Thu Dec 14 16:56:35 2006 From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:56:35 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> (Marc Spitzer's message of "Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500") References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "ms" == Marc Spitzer writes: ms> If some one wants to provide a different alternitive, open ms> source driver for example, fine but t it is not on the table ms> yet is it? Yeah the ``if someone wants to put something on the table I'll reconsider'' is I think a key motivating strategy from the Linux camp. The users have this sense of entitlement, which I suspect comes from the Linux zealots trying to convince people to switch from Windows: installing on their relatives' and friends' machines and such, who then say ``but you claimed it was better,'' and now that they have some shadow of a choice instantly turn into arrogant customer-is-always-right consumers haggling with the sales guy like good little capitalists. The people asked to use/fund Linux get to feel good about themselves. The back-pressure the friends and relatives exert while it might not be effective on BSD developers, it _does_ work well on many Linux developers. And obviously Linux is doing pretty well. I think it's partly because this type of advocacy worked and not purely for other reasons. BSD since its beginnings has competed for developers instead of users. so my first impulse as a BSD guy hearing someone say, ``well if you guys aren't going to put anything else on the table for me, I'll just go use Linux'' is, (0) Cool, no problem, (1) That guy's annoying, and (2) ``Both myself and the linux people have been clear about what software freedom means, so rather than repeating myself on those points I'll leave you to choose whatever short- or long-term strategy you like, confident that you need justify your choice to no one but yourself.'' The Linux advocate at this point would probably instead start arguing with you, painting portraits of future dystopias, villifying corporations, launching ad-hominem attacks. The BSD style of advocacy feels a hell of a lot more neighborly, clear-headed, and rhetorically honest to me. But I think it's also been a failure. For example, Jeff Quast substantially expanded on (2) above by linking to an OpenBSD paper, which I found really interesting here: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/mgp00024.html and here: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/mgp00022.html but I don't think Mark Spitzer's rebuttal acknowledged the arguments in the paper at all. The paper's out there, is reasonable, even IMHO compelling, but it's just not effective at capturing attention or ensuring our platform's future. OTOH I'm sure if like 20 people on this list all ganged up on Mark like rowdy children and said ``MARC U R A big st2pidh3ad'' he would respond somehow---eventually it could get so nasty he would have to either leave or comply. It sucks, but I think the Linux advocacy approach has a far superior track record, yet obviously I'm still not willing to adopt it. Secondly the Linux way of approaching hardware has been to make as many drivers as possible: the end goal is to ``convert'' machines, so it has to support everything. No one keeps a list of preferred Good drivers vs. mediocre drivers and steers people toward hardware with Good drivers---instead it's ``how many pieces of this laptop I just bought have some kind of driver attached to them.'' Instead the goal is to run on Dell's motherboard-of-the-week. They basically set out to pander to Mark's position, to the best of their ability. BSD, again since its beginnings with BSD/OS, was never interested in supporting everything. Instead the BSDI's position was, ``If you want to run BSD/OS, buy hardware off this short menu of well-supported things. Please don't try to use other devices because they'll work poorly or not at all.'' Now, in the present, Theo is saying, ``try to buy the Taiwanese chips like Realtek gigabit and Ralink wireless---they'll work the best because they give us documentation.'' very much in the BSD tradition. This second tradition is also failing us because, as the paper Jeff cited points out, modern laptops and even servers are so integrated by their OEM's that it's no longer possible to choose hardware. We have to resort to buying eBay laptops just to get stuff that mostly-works. We fill up cardbus slots and have to pack wads of silly USB dongles and cables to duplicate built-in laptop hardware for which we don't have drivers. We use underpowered overpriced boards like Soekris just because the hardware doesn't burry us with major revisions from one chip stepping to the next. I really doubt we can survive in this environment too much longer. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From af.dingo at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 17:44:18 2006 From: af.dingo at gmail.com (Jeff Quast) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:44:18 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30612140926n48c9715blfce06c270fda8cf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> <20061214111200.6887c957@dt.genoverly.com> <8c50a3c30612140926n48c9715blfce06c270fda8cf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/14/06, Marc Spitzer wrote: > On 12/14/06, michael wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500 > > "Marc Spitzer" wrote: > > > > > On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: > > > > The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out > > > > there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the > > > > cause of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it > > > > to work" is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. > > > > > > I just want it to work is a perfectly reasonable attitude for an end > > > user to have. I as an end user need wireless on my laptop this is how > > > I do it. Now this is how I do it is the interesting bit, do I use a > > > blob or just install windows or linux? All three work and I need > > > wireless, I do not need xBSD nearly as much. If some one wants to > > > provide a different alternitive, open source driver for example, fine > > > but t it is not on the table yet is it? > > > > > > marc > > > > I have wireless in my laptop and an AP at home. I run OpenBSD and "it > > just works". > > > > Frankly, we don't need xBSD or wireless or anything *that* badly. But > > when we do, we have choices. As a user (and like the above post), I > > paid for the hardware and want to use it. I support the spirit behind > > open source drivers and chose not to use binary drivers. > > > > I chose a model by a vendor that has provided documentation and is > > supported by the project. > > > > While I see/hear the argument to blindly accept binary drivers, I don't > > understand the choice to do so... as per reasons stated already. Nobody > > is forcing anyone to make the choice of using binary drivers.. people > > make that choice on their own. And, as stated by many, to the > > detriment of others. > > > > I had a choice; and after careful thought, believe I made the right one. > > > > You have a choice. > > > > I am talking about users, myself when I put on my user hat as well. > And when wearing that hat I want web/email to just work. That > includes the network as well. Now most of the time I like playing > with computers, poking around in the kernel etc, but sometimes I just > need things to work. If blobs, or even windows, get things to work as > I need it to then that is what I do that is all. If you need to do > all kinds of leg work, upto compiling a custom OS, to get things > running then by the meer fact of you doing this you are not an end > user nor are you behaving as one. > > marc > -- > Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. > Albert Camus Marc, Maybe my criticism was misinterpreted because I was so brief. I don't shop at walmart. I'm told that supporting walmart helps destroy my local economy. I live in Flint, MI, and it is bad here (by US standards, of course). I am responsible enough to sacrifice small price cuts for myself, for a very tiny small gain for everybody else in my area. And this is how I disagree with your argument about looking at it from a user's perspective. I'm not an economist. I don't know anything about economy, never took economy in college and I don't plan to. But when expert financial advisers explain in simple language why Walmart is bad for our economy, I act on it by not shopping at walmart. Now expert kernel developers who know a lot more than us are yelling danger, hell, and fire. People who write some of the very best open source code have taken time out of doing what they love to spell to us quite plainly why open documentation is so important. I'm listening. This is one of the very few ways users can help the open source community without touching source code. You can make responsible choices and show our vendors that we want our hardware to work. http://www.vendorwatch.org is helpful. I still mean it: Shame on you. Please don't shit where we all sleep. jdq From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 19:21:00 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:21:00 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612141621r5fe95b2k55cdb33191b45cc4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/06, Miles Nordin wrote: > >>>>> "ms" == Marc Spitzer writes: > > ms> If some one wants to provide a different alternitive, open > ms> source driver for example, fine but t it is not on the table > ms> yet is it? > > Yeah the ``if someone wants to put something on the table I'll > reconsider'' is I think a key motivating strategy from the Linux camp. > The users have this sense of entitlement, which I suspect comes from > the Linux zealots trying to convince people to switch from Windows: > installing on their relatives' and friends' machines and such, who > then say ``but you claimed it was better,'' and now that they have > some shadow of a choice instantly turn into arrogant > customer-is-always-right consumers haggling with the sales guy like > good little capitalists. The people asked to use/fund Linux get to > feel good about themselves. The back-pressure the friends and > relatives exert while it might not be effective on BSD developers, it > _does_ work well on many Linux developers. And obviously Linux is > doing pretty well. I think it's partly because this type of advocacy > worked and not purely for other reasons. As an end user it is a perfectly reasonable statement to say if your product meets my needs I will considder using it. and the followon point of go away until you meet my needs also applies. > > BSD since its beginnings has competed for developers instead of users. > so my first impulse as a BSD guy hearing someone say, ``well if you > guys aren't going to put anything else on the table for me, I'll just > go use Linux'' is, (0) Cool, no problem, (1) That guy's annoying, and > (2) ``Both myself and the linux people have been clear about what > software freedom means, so rather than repeating myself on those > points I'll leave you to choose whatever short- or long-term strategy > you like, confident that you need justify your choice to no one but > yourself.'' The Linux advocate at this point would probably instead > start arguing with you, painting portraits of future dystopias, > villifying corporations, launching ad-hominem attacks. BSD competes for developers, good point. It competes with linux mostly, and from what I have seen of the numbers/industry it is not in the leadership role. Weather it is a better product or not is largly besides the point, as is the fact that I like bsd better, as both are good enough for most tasks they are used for. > > The BSD style of advocacy feels a hell of a lot more neighborly, > clear-headed, and rhetorically honest to me. But I think it's also > been a failure. For example, Jeff Quast substantially expanded on (2) > above by linking to an OpenBSD paper, which I found really interesting > here: > > http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/mgp00024.html > > and here: > > http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/mgp00022.html > > but I don't think Mark Spitzer's rebuttal acknowledged the arguments > in the paper at all. The paper's out there, is reasonable, even IMHO Since I doid not read the papers that would be correct. All I was commenting on is how I as end user I want my wirless card to simply work. And that in that respect I am largly indifferent to religious arguments, I want wireless to work, need a blob ok need windows (say shit 3 times) ok. > compelling, but it's just not effective at capturing attention or > ensuring our platform's future. OTOH I'm sure if like 20 people on > this list all ganged up on Mark like rowdy children and said ``MARC U > R A big st2pidh3ad'' he would respond somehow---eventually it could > get so nasty he would have to either leave or comply. It sucks, but I > think the Linux advocacy approach has a far superior track record, yet > obviously I'm still not willing to adopt it. > That does not happen here because the G-man will boot you if you become too much of an asshole. > > Secondly the Linux way of approaching hardware has been to make as > many drivers as possible: the end goal is to ``convert'' machines, so > it has to support everything. No one keeps a list of preferred Good > drivers vs. mediocre drivers and steers people toward hardware with > Good drivers---instead it's ``how many pieces of this laptop I just > bought have some kind of driver attached to them.'' Instead the goal's > is to run on Dell's motherboard-of-the-week. They basically set out > to pander to Mark's position, to the best of their ability. what pander? they are going after the desktop market as a means of building support for their product. Much like MS did and it does seem to work. > > BSD, again since its beginnings with BSD/OS, was never interested in > supporting everything. Instead the BSDI's position was, ``If you want > to run BSD/OS, buy hardware off this short menu of well-supported > things. Please don't try to use other devices because they'll work > poorly or not at all.'' Now, in the present, Theo is saying, ``try to > buy the Taiwanese chips like Realtek gigabit and Ralink > wireless---they'll work the best because they give us documentation.'' > very much in the BSD tradition. But geting the laptop my uncle gave me for crispins day wifi up is my only concern. > > This second tradition is also failing us because, as the paper Jeff > cited points out, modern laptops and even servers are so integrated by > their OEM's that it's no longer possible to choose hardware. We have > to resort to buying eBay laptops just to get stuff that mostly-works. > We fill up cardbus slots and have to pack wads of silly USB dongles > and cables to duplicate built-in laptop hardware for which we don't > have drivers. We use underpowered overpriced boards like Soekris just > because the hardware doesn't burry us with major revisions from one > chip stepping to the next. you are right that does suck. > > > I really doubt we can survive in this environment too much longer. > Time will tell, but odder things have happened. marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From mspitzer at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 19:31:03 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:31:03 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OpenBSD and blobs In-Reply-To: References: <50166.70.38.30.24.1161053423.squirrel@webmail.nomadlogic.org> <20061017150048.GB10586@ayvali.org> <8c50a3c30612140717l44029739ge7b68c7d788f3aa8@mail.gmail.com> <20061214111200.6887c957@dt.genoverly.com> <8c50a3c30612140926n48c9715blfce06c270fda8cf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612141631o41c7606kc3bedf6cf26d05f7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: > On 12/14/06, Marc Spitzer wrote: > > On 12/14/06, michael wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:17:33 -0500 > > > "Marc Spitzer" wrote: > > > > > > > On 12/14/06, Jeff Quast wrote: > > > > > The windows driver wraps, binary blobs, and drivers under NDA out > > > > > there and the users who accept them are an absolute shame to the > > > > > cause of the open source community. The attitude of "I just want it > > > > > to work" is short sighted, selfish, and harmful. > > > > > > > > I just want it to work is a perfectly reasonable attitude for an end > > > > user to have. I as an end user need wireless on my laptop this is how > > > > I do it. Now this is how I do it is the interesting bit, do I use a > > > > blob or just install windows or linux? All three work and I need > > > > wireless, I do not need xBSD nearly as much. If some one wants to > > > > provide a different alternitive, open source driver for example, fine > > > > but t it is not on the table yet is it? > > > > > > > > marc > > > > > > I have wireless in my laptop and an AP at home. I run OpenBSD and "it > > > just works". > > > > > > Frankly, we don't need xBSD or wireless or anything *that* badly. But > > > when we do, we have choices. As a user (and like the above post), I > > > paid for the hardware and want to use it. I support the spirit behind > > > open source drivers and chose not to use binary drivers. > > > > > > I chose a model by a vendor that has provided documentation and is > > > supported by the project. > > > > > > While I see/hear the argument to blindly accept binary drivers, I don't > > > understand the choice to do so... as per reasons stated already. Nobody > > > is forcing anyone to make the choice of using binary drivers.. people > > > make that choice on their own. And, as stated by many, to the > > > detriment of others. > > > > > > I had a choice; and after careful thought, believe I made the right one. > > > > > > You have a choice. > > > > > > > I am talking about users, myself when I put on my user hat as well. > > And when wearing that hat I want web/email to just work. That > > includes the network as well. Now most of the time I like playing > > with computers, poking around in the kernel etc, but sometimes I just > > need things to work. If blobs, or even windows, get things to work as > > I need it to then that is what I do that is all. If you need to do > > all kinds of leg work, upto compiling a custom OS, to get things > > running then by the meer fact of you doing this you are not an end > > user nor are you behaving as one. > > > > marc > > -- > > Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. > > Albert Camus > > Marc, > > Maybe my criticism was misinterpreted because I was so brief. > > I don't shop at walmart. I'm told that supporting walmart helps > destroy my local economy. I live in Flint, MI, and it is bad here (by > US standards, of course). I am responsible enough to sacrifice small > price cuts for myself, for a very tiny small gain for everybody else > in my area. And this is how I disagree with your argument about > looking at it from a user's perspective. What you are talking about is "enlightened self intrest" and with out serious social pressure it does not work because people are greedy and selfish. This only works if lots of people engage in this form of selfsacrifice and this generally does not happen. > > I'm not an economist. I don't know anything about economy, never took > economy in college and I don't plan to. But when expert financial > advisers explain in simple language why Walmart is bad for our > economy, I act on it by not shopping at walmart. Well you should fix that, I need to do some more work in that area as well. Understanding how things work is very important for improving your lot over the long term. > > Now expert kernel developers who know a lot more than us are yelling > danger, hell, and fire. People who write some of the very best open > source code have taken time out of doing what they love to spell to us > quite plainly why open documentation is so important. I'm listening. > > This is one of the very few ways users can help the open source > community without touching source code. You can make responsible > choices and show our vendors that we want our hardware to work. > http://www.vendorwatch.org is helpful. the thing is that even if all of bsd got on the waggon and went in the same direction we are still marginal to the players. > > I still mean it: Shame on you. Please don't shit where we all sleep. I do not sleep with computers, they are tools and toys to me. When the tool is flawed I replace it and when my toys no longer amuse me I find new ones. marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From max at neuropunks.org Mon Dec 18 08:18:40 2006 From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:18:40 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ping to the list... Message-ID: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> Hey there.. Didn't get any emails from the list since 12/14, right after enabling greylisting.. Sorry for spamming, but want to see if I don't know what I'm doing or if BSD just isn't fashionable anymore : ) Other email works fine though. Since we're on the subject, how do you all feel about greylisting.. I'm using greylisting app that comes bundled with latest postfix, was very easy to setup.. It seems I am getting less spam, but the difference so far is marginal, and for some reason most russian spam still gets through. From tillman at seekingfire.com Mon Dec 18 11:42:57 2006 From: tillman at seekingfire.com (Tillman Hodgson) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:42:57 -0600 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ping to the list... In-Reply-To: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> References: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> Message-ID: <20061218164257.GR90057@seekingfire.com> On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 08:18:40AM -0500, Max Gribov wrote: > Hey there.. > Didn't get any emails from the list since 12/14, right after enabling > greylisting.. Sorry for spamming, but want to see if I don't know what > I'm doing or if BSD just isn't fashionable anymore : ) Yeah, it's been suspiciously quiet, especially for such a rowdy crew ;-) -T -- "If 'everybody knows' such-and-such, then it ain't so, by at least ten thousand to one." -- Robert Heinlein From skreuzer at f2o.org Mon Dec 18 14:55:39 2006 From: skreuzer at f2o.org (Steven Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:55:39 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ping to the list... In-Reply-To: <20061218164257.GR90057@seekingfire.com> References: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> <20061218164257.GR90057@seekingfire.com> Message-ID: <7D06A77F-14FA-4D3A-8E81-9D483F1AE103@f2o.org> On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:42 AM, Tillman Hodgson wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 08:18:40AM -0500, Max Gribov wrote: >> Hey there.. >> Didn't get any emails from the list since 12/14, right after enabling >> greylisting.. Sorry for spamming, but want to see if I don't know >> what >> I'm doing or if BSD just isn't fashionable anymore : ) > > Yeah, it's been suspiciously quiet, especially for such a rowdy > crew ;-) Didn't you hear? Netcraft officially confirmed BSD's death on 12/14. From george at ceetonetechnology.com Mon Dec 18 23:02:01 2006 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George R.) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:02:01 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ping to the list... In-Reply-To: <7D06A77F-14FA-4D3A-8E81-9D483F1AE103@f2o.org> References: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> <20061218164257.GR90057@seekingfire.com> <7D06A77F-14FA-4D3A-8E81-9D483F1AE103@f2o.org> Message-ID: <45876439.7060709@ceetonetechnology.com> Steven Kreuzer wrote: > On Dec 18, 2006, at 11:42 AM, Tillman Hodgson wrote: > >> On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 08:18:40AM -0500, Max Gribov wrote: >>> Hey there.. >>> Didn't get any emails from the list since 12/14, right after enabling >>> greylisting.. Sorry for spamming, but want to see if I don't know >>> what >>> I'm doing or if BSD just isn't fashionable anymore : ) >> Yeah, it's been suspiciously quiet, especially for such a rowdy >> crew ;-) > > Didn't you hear? Netcraft officially confirmed BSD's death on 12/14. the NYCBUG talk list is dead! Long live the NYCBUG talk list! (sorry, corny) PS: Max, you could always check the archives .. or were you trying to provoke a discussion? g From nycbug-list at 2xlp.com Tue Dec 19 15:10:04 2006 From: nycbug-list at 2xlp.com (Jonathan Vanasco) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:10:04 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OffTopic - NYC Electronics Supply Stores ? Message-ID: <3C10447C-816B-45A2-B855-1B119111CCEC@2xlp.com> Sorry for the off-topicness, but I know that someone here can make a suggestion: I'm installing a PID on one off my espresso machines this weekend. I need to pick up a decent looking 'project box' and some misc electronic components. Can anyone offer a suggestion as to where I can find that sort of stuff in NYC ? (aside from Radio Shack. i don't like the boxes they stock) Thanks. // Jonathan Vanasco | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | FindMeOn.com - The cure for Multiple Web Personality Disorder | Web Identity Management and 3D Social Networking | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | RoadSound.com - Tools For Bands, Stuff For Fans | Collaborative Online Management And Syndication Tools | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From lists at stringsutils.com Wed Dec 20 09:08:47 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:08:47 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ping to the list... References: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> <20061218164257.GR90057@seekingfire.com> <7D06A77F-14FA-4D3A-8E81-9D483F1AE103@f2o.org> <45876439.7060709@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: George R. writes: > PS: Max, you could always check the archives .. or were you trying to > provoke a discussion? He was/is trying to make sure his greylisting was not blocking the list. From dan at langille.org Wed Dec 20 10:47:02 2006 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:47:02 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Update to the FreeBSD mail/spamd filed as ports/105277 In-Reply-To: References: <45511DC0.2585.3C421E5D@dan.langille.org>, , Message-ID: <458914A6.23433.142D4ED9@dan.langille.org> On 8 Nov 2006 at 10:10, Yarema wrote: > > > --On Wednesday, November 08, 2006 9:21 AM -0500 Yarema > wrote: > > > > > > > --On Wednesday, November 08, 2006 3:40 PM +0800 LI Xin > > wrote: > > > >> Yarema wrote: > >>> --On Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:19 PM +0800 LI Xin > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Yarema wrote: > >>>>> --On Wednesday, November 08, 2006 1:39 PM +0800 LI Xin > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Dan Langille wrote: > >>>>>>> On 7 Nov 2006 at 22:47, Yarema wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Inspired by Bob Beck's talk at the NYC BSD Con I implemented > >>>>>>>> spamd and greyscanner on my FreeBSD pf edge servers. What a > >>>>>>>> difference! Catches somewhere around 99% of the spam before > >>>>>>>> it ever reaches the mail server. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Just filed . > >>>>>>>> Also available as a tarball at > >>>>>>>> . > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Let me know what you think. If you like, let the maintainer > >>>>>>>> know . > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The updated port is what I'm now running in production. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Have you considered upgrading spamd to the latest version > >>>>>>> from OpenBSD? I'd contacted the maintainer about this, and > >>>>>>> have only recently started working with greylisting via pf > >>>>>>> and spamd. Are you interested in updating spamd itself? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes that would be great. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If nobody step up with the update I would do that myself this > >>>>>> week, but I would be happy to see someone to take this over, > >>>>>> as I no longer use it for my own use... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> > >>>>> I could try updating it since by now I'm pretty familiar with > >>>>> the port. How did you roll the 3.7 tarball? By hand from an > >>>>> OpenBSD release? > >>>> > >>>> First you need an OpenBSD cvs mirrored locally, or use the > >>>> anonymous OpenBSD CVS. I have rolled CVS information into the > >>>> tarball, so this would be done with something like > >>>> "cvs -d /home/openbsd up -rOPENBSD_4_0" > >>>> in each directories. Then, check if there is newly added files > >>>> in OpenBSD distribution, port the patches into the tree, verify > >>>> that everything goes well, remove the .#* files, and finally > >>>> you got a new tarball. > >>>> > >>>> Please note that if you roll a new tarball, I would advise that > >>>> you either include our local patchsets into it, or separate all > >>>> our local patchset out to files/. This will make maintainer's > >>>> life easier. > >>>> > >>>> So I guess it's midnight in NY? It's afternoon here so if you > >>>> are tired, just leave the work to me :-) > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Yeah, it's 1:30am US/Eastern so I'm ready to pass out. If > >>> you do roll another tarball consider including greyscanner > >>> and all that code dealing with fetching it can be eliminated > >>> from the Makefile. > >> > >> Yes. I have prepared a tarball at > >> http://people.freebsd.org/~delphij/misc/spamd.tar.bz2 and you > >> may want to try it out, to see if the upgrade has all features > >> you wanted. I have uploaded the necessary distfile to my home > >> directory but it can take some time to be populated out to > >> mirror sites. > >> > >> I will walk through the open PRs to see if I have missed > >> something. > > > > OK, I did a few test builds. I see that you opted to apply > > the FreeBSD patches directly to the tarball. There's one > > problem I found with that. In spamd-setup.c line 51 > > ${LOCALBASE}, or ${PREFIX} if you will, gets hard coded: > > > ># define PATH_SPAMD_CONF "/usr/local/etc/spamd.conf" > > > > Same thing probably happens with the man pages. Come to > > think of it I think it would be simpler to maintain the > > port with the local FreeBSD patches applied by the port at > > build time like before rather than rolling the tarball with > > the patches already applied. Who knows.. maybe the OpenBSD > > folks will someday package spamd as a tarball themselves. > > It would be good to have those patches still araound in the > > files dir if/when that happens. > > > > Otherwise looks good. Thanks again for looking into this so > > quickly. > > Following up on my own email... Just updated the 4.0 version of > adding files/crontab.in to be > installed as ${EXAMPLESDIR}/crontab. And some minor cosmetic fixes to the > Makefile. So what point are we at? Do we want to ugprade the FreeBSD port or what? Do we have a patch ready to go? Should we start a new PR? -- Dan Langille : Software Developer looking for work my resume: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference - http://www.pgcon.org/ From chsnyder at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 11:07:09 2006 From: chsnyder at gmail.com (csnyder) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:07:09 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] OffTopic - NYC Electronics Supply Stores ? In-Reply-To: <3C10447C-816B-45A2-B855-1B119111CCEC@2xlp.com> References: <3C10447C-816B-45A2-B855-1B119111CCEC@2xlp.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/06, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > Sorry for the off-topicness, but I know that someone here can make a > suggestion: > > I'm installing a PID on one off my espresso machines this weekend. > I need to pick up a decent looking 'project box' and some misc > electronic components. > Can anyone offer a suggestion as to where I can find that sort of > stuff in NYC ? (aside from Radio Shack. i don't like the boxes they > stock) > > Thanks. > > // Jonathan Vanasco > Hey, did you find any places? There must be a few around... Apparently most of the old-school electronics supply shops in Manhattan were in the same neighborhood, and got cleared out to make way for the World Trade Center in the early 70s. -- Chris Snyder http://chxo.com/ From max at neuropunks.org Wed Dec 20 12:50:06 2006 From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:50:06 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Ping to the list... In-Reply-To: References: <20061218131912.13B0939@finn.neuropunks.org> <20061218164257.GR90057@seekingfire.com> <7D06A77F-14FA-4D3A-8E81-9D483F1AE103@f2o.org> <45876439.7060709@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <458977CE.2050003@neuropunks.org> Francisco Reyes wrote: > George R. writes: > > >> PS: Max, you could always check the archives .. or were you trying to >> provoke a discussion? >> > > Yeah, just wanted to make sure I still get emails... And that the list is still there.. : ) > He was/is trying to make sure his greylisting was not blocking the list. > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > From mspitzer at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 13:43:32 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:43:32 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] finally an explanation of the firefox logo among other things Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612201043h10f773ceo17fab7abeda8bcf3@mail.gmail.com> http://thefunniest.info/top.html marc -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From mthayer at hwi.buffalo.edu Thu Dec 21 12:24:45 2006 From: mthayer at hwi.buffalo.edu (Max Thayer) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:24:45 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD 6.1 - PHP 5.2.0 portinstall Message-ID: <5AB83D2A30B3D345B8BBC12B9FFE815F107B3D@claven.dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu> We run BSD 6.1 in my shop, Apache 2.2 and I am currently attempting to upgrade from PHP 5.1.6 to 5.2... PHP 5.2 is wrapping up several extensions into its core, namely the JSON and PDO extensions....I have ran the portinstall for php 5.2.0 once already only to find these two extensions aren't installing by default as php.net indicates...so...I'm on the hunt for any assistance in what I may be doing wrong with my portinstall/bsd or php upgrade...I'm hitting up the organizations that I find most relevant for any help I can find. Is there an argument(s) in the "make config" I should be adding? Is there an argument(s) in the "make install" I should be adding? When I execute "portinstall /ports/lang/php5" is there an argument(s) I should be adding? Or Do I continue to do post portinstalls of those modules because they weren't, in fact, added to the port install of PHP 5.2.0? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org Thu Dec 21 12:57:39 2006 From: lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org (Brian A. Seklecki) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:57:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD 6.1 - PHP 5.2.0 portinstall In-Reply-To: <5AB83D2A30B3D345B8BBC12B9FFE815F107B3D@claven.dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu> References: <5AB83D2A30B3D345B8BBC12B9FFE815F107B3D@claven.dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: <20061221125446.I95919@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org> > PHP 5.2 is wrapping up several extensions into its core, namely the JSON > and PDO extensions....I have ran the portinstall for php 5.2.0 once > already only to find these two extensions aren't installing by default > as php.net indicates...so...I'm on the hunt for any assistance in what I > may be doing wrong with my portinstall/bsd or php upgrade...I'm hitting > up the organizations that I find most relevant for any help I can find. Are they being built? Check the build log in the work/ directory (which gets cleaned up by portinstall by default I think; try a genuine "make build") Are they in the port PLIST? (egrep -i "\.so$" pkg-plist) Are you recycling your old extensions.ini that may simply need to appended to? ~BAS > Is there an argument(s) in the "make config" I should be adding? > Is there an argument(s) in the "make install" I should be adding? > > When I execute "portinstall /ports/lang/php5" is there an argument(s) I > should be adding? > > > > Or > > > > Do I continue to do post portinstalls of those modules because they > weren't, in fact, added to the port install of PHP 5.2.0? > > l8* -lava (Brian A. Seklecki - Pittsburgh, PA, USA) http://www.spiritual-machines.org/ "...from back in the heady days when "helpdesk" meant nothing, "diskquota" meant everything, and lives could be bought and sold for a couple of pages of laser printout - and frequently were." -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ % NYC*BUG talk mailing list http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists %We meet the first Wednesday of the month From fungus at aros.net Fri Dec 22 13:34:12 2006 From: fungus at aros.net (Lonnie Olson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:34:12 -0700 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD 6.1 - PHP 5.2.0 portinstall In-Reply-To: <5AB83D2A30B3D345B8BBC12B9FFE815F107B3D@claven.dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu> References: <5AB83D2A30B3D345B8BBC12B9FFE815F107B3D@claven.dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: <458C2524.4030002@aros.net> Max Thayer wrote: > We run BSD 6.1 in my shop, Apache 2.2 and I am currently attempting to > upgrade from PHP 5.1.6 to 5.2... > > > > PHP 5.2 is wrapping up several extensions into its core, namely the JSON > and PDO extensions....I have ran the portinstall for php 5.2.0 once > already only to find these two extensions aren't installing by default > as php.net indicates...so...I'm on the hunt for any assistance in what I > may be doing wrong with my portinstall/bsd or php upgrade...I'm hitting > up the organizations that I find most relevant for any help I can find. > > > > Is there an argument(s) in the "make config" I should be adding? > > Is there an argument(s) in the "make install" I should be adding? > > When I execute "portinstall /ports/lang/php5" is there an argument(s) I > should be adding? Look at the port lang/php5-extensions. PHP in the ports system has seperated every extension into it's own port. The extensions that are supposed to be installed by default come (by default) with the php5-extensions port. This port is a meta port for each individual extension. It's `make configure`able to include or exclude all extensions. It's default config is to install the extensions that come by default with PHP. It makes for an extremely flexible, yet elegant setup for php. Essentially you just need to execute portinstall lang/php5 lang/php5-extensions and if you use any of the PEAR libraries add "devel/pear" It's really cool. --lonnie -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3589 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From mthayer at hwi.buffalo.edu Fri Dec 22 14:59:48 2006 From: mthayer at hwi.buffalo.edu (Max Thayer) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:59:48 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD 6.1 - PHP 5.2.0 portinstall Message-ID: <5AB83D2A30B3D345B8BBC12B9FFE815F107B67@claven.dhcp.hwi.buffalo.edu> > We run BSD 6.1 in my shop, Apache 2.2 and I am currently attempting to > upgrade from PHP 5.1.6 to 5.2... > > > > PHP 5.2 is wrapping up several extensions into its core, namely the JSON > and PDO extensions....I have ran the portinstall for php 5.2.0 once > already only to find these two extensions aren't installing by default > as php.net indicates...so...I'm on the hunt for any assistance in what I > may be doing wrong with my portinstall/bsd or php upgrade...I'm hitting > up the organizations that I find most relevant for any help I can find. > > > > Is there an argument(s) in the "make config" I should be adding? > > Is there an argument(s) in the "make install" I should be adding? > > When I execute "portinstall /ports/lang/php5" is there an argument(s) I > should be adding? > Look at the port lang/php5-extensions. > PHP in the ports system has seperated every extension into it's own > port. The extensions that are supposed to be installed by default come > (by default) with the php5-extensions port. This port is a meta port > for each individual extension. It's `make configure`able to include or > exclude all extensions. It's default config is to install the > extensions that come by default with PHP. > It makes for an extremely flexible, yet elegant setup for php. > Essentially you just need to execute > portinstall lang/php5 lang/php5-extensions > and if you use any of the PEAR libraries add "devel/pear" > It's really cool. > --lonnie I ran the php5-extensions and it reverted my php5 installation back to 1.5.6 I ended up just going back through and reinstalling each port individually... (namely PDO and JSON) From nycbug at cyth.net Fri Dec 22 18:55:55 2006 From: nycbug at cyth.net (Ray Lai) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:54:55 -0501 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ShmooCon Message-ID: <20061222235518.GV8442@cybertron.cyth.net> Man, I forgot about it this year. Who's going? -Ray- From mspitzer at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 19:35:23 2006 From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:35:23 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ShmooCon In-Reply-To: <20061222235518.GV8442@cybertron.cyth.net> References: <20061222235518.GV8442@cybertron.cyth.net> Message-ID: <8c50a3c30612221635s7f0fa4a3ub0ee2c7bbceb564f@mail.gmail.com> I should be, I think it is in march 2007 if I remember correctly. I need to see how it works out with bsdcan though marc On 12/22/06, Ray Lai wrote: > Man, I forgot about it this year. Who's going? > > -Ray- > _______________________________________________ > % NYC*BUG talk mailing list > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > %Be sure to check out our Jobs and NYCBUG-announce lists > %We meet the first Wednesday of the month > -- Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better. Albert Camus From tux at penguinnetwerx.net Sat Dec 23 22:43:41 2006 From: tux at penguinnetwerx.net (Kevin Reiter) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:43:41 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] ShmooCon In-Reply-To: <20061222235518.GV8442@cybertron.cyth.net> References: <20061222235518.GV8442@cybertron.cyth.net> Message-ID: <458DF76D.9080304@penguinnetwerx.net> This'll make year 3 for me... (Sorry for the direct reply, Ray - forgot to hit "Reply to all") Ray Lai wrote: > Man, I forgot about it this year. Who's going? From spork at bway.net Tue Dec 26 23:15:55 2006 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 23:15:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 340.noid periodic script + jails Message-ID: Hi all, Just thought I'd run this one by the group... You're probably familiar with the periodic script (/etc/periodic/weekly/340.noid) that reports on what files on a host that have an unknown user or group. One annoyance I've found beyond the occasional tarball that unpacks with unused uids is that many times there are UIDs that exist in a jail but not on the main host. For now we just threw a patch in there to skip the path that matches where we stash the jails. Ideally I'd like to figure out a method that would not involve applying this everytime we see a change there in a mergemaster run. We brainstormed a bit and came up entry. Anyone else faced with this tiny annoyance? Thanks, Charles From lists at stringsutils.com Wed Dec 27 09:10:23 2006 From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:10:23 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD 340.noid periodic script + jails References: Message-ID: Charles Sprickman writes: > For now we just threw a patch in there to skip the path that matches where > we stash the jails. Ideally I'd like to figure out a method that would > not involve applying this everytime we see a change there in a mergemaster > run. If it is just a handfull of machines, could you add the UID to the global environment outside the jail? From tux at penguinnetwerx.net Fri Dec 29 13:32:56 2006 From: tux at penguinnetwerx.net (Kevin Reiter) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:56 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Scripting(Date&Time) Question Message-ID: <45955F58.7000306@penguinnetwerx.net> All, Fairly simple (I think) question here: When echoing the date into a logfile from a script, I'm noticing the time never changes. Here's an example of the resulting log entries: 12/29/2006 13:15:47: www_data compressed. 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Database dump done. 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Checksums created. 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Other stuff done. 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Sending files to remote server... 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Files sent. Here's the code snippet that defines the date format: DATE=`date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S'` Here's the actual code snippets in the script that echo the $DATE into the log: echo "$DATE: www_data compressed." >> www_backup.log echo "$DATE: Database dump done." >> www_backup.log echo "$DATE: Checksums created." >> www_backup.log ...etc... Is there a reason the time isn't updated when the script runs? I'm guessing here that the $DATE variable grabs the current time when the script kicks off and doesn't update it in real-time as the script proceeds - would that be a close guess? What would need to be changed in order for the current time to be entered into the logfile? Any assistance would be most appreciated. Kev From lists at genoverly.net Fri Dec 29 13:41:04 2006 From: lists at genoverly.net (michael) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:41:04 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Scripting(Date&Time) Question In-Reply-To: <45955F58.7000306@penguinnetwerx.net> References: <45955F58.7000306@penguinnetwerx.net> Message-ID: <20061229134104.0d2c8811@dt.genoverly.com> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:56 -0500 Kevin Reiter wrote: > All, > > Fairly simple (I think) question here: > > When echoing the date into a logfile from a script, I'm noticing the > time never changes. > > Here's an example of the resulting log entries: > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: www_data compressed. > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Database dump done. > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Checksums created. > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Other stuff done. > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Sending files to remote server... > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Files sent. > > Here's the code snippet that defines the date format: > > DATE=`date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S'` > > Here's the actual code snippets in the script that echo the $DATE > into the log: > > echo "$DATE: www_data compressed." >> www_backup.log > echo "$DATE: Database dump done." >> www_backup.log > echo "$DATE: Checksums created." >> www_backup.log > ...etc... > > Is there a reason the time isn't updated when the script runs? I'm > guessing here that the $DATE variable grabs the current time when the > script kicks off and doesn't update it in real-time as the script > proceeds - would that be a close guess? > > What would need to be changed in order for the current time to be > entered into the logfile? Any assistance would be most appreciated. > > Kev At first blush, it looks like you only initialize $DATE once at the start. So.. your assumption looks right from here. -- michael (this address does not accept public email) From okan at demirmen.com Fri Dec 29 14:01:21 2006 From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:01:21 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Scripting(Date&Time) Question In-Reply-To: <20061229134104.0d2c8811@dt.genoverly.com> References: <45955F58.7000306@penguinnetwerx.net> <20061229134104.0d2c8811@dt.genoverly.com> Message-ID: <20061229190121.GA3329@clam.khaoz.org> On Fri 2006.12.29 at 13:41 -0500, michael wrote: > On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:56 -0500 > Kevin Reiter wrote: > > > All, > > > > Fairly simple (I think) question here: > > > > When echoing the date into a logfile from a script, I'm noticing the > > time never changes. > > > > Here's an example of the resulting log entries: > > > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: www_data compressed. > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Database dump done. > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Checksums created. > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Other stuff done. > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Sending files to remote server... > > 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Files sent. > > > > Here's the code snippet that defines the date format: > > > > DATE=`date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S'` > > > > Here's the actual code snippets in the script that echo the $DATE > > into the log: > > > > echo "$DATE: www_data compressed." >> www_backup.log > > echo "$DATE: Database dump done." >> www_backup.log > > echo "$DATE: Checksums created." >> www_backup.log > > ...etc... > > > > Is there a reason the time isn't updated when the script runs? I'm > > guessing here that the $DATE variable grabs the current time when the > > script kicks off and doesn't update it in real-time as the script > > proceeds - would that be a close guess? > > > > What would need to be changed in order for the current time to be > > entered into the logfile? Any assistance would be most appreciated. > > > > Kev > > At first blush, it looks like you only initialize $DATE once at the > start. So.. your assumption looks right from here. yes. From skreuzer at f2o.org Fri Dec 29 14:02:30 2006 From: skreuzer at f2o.org (Steven Kreuzer) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:02:30 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Scripting(Date&Time) Question In-Reply-To: <20061229134104.0d2c8811@dt.genoverly.com> References: <45955F58.7000306@penguinnetwerx.net> <20061229134104.0d2c8811@dt.genoverly.com> Message-ID: <925B86E8-6799-4963-8456-E20E244F2150@f2o.org> On Dec 29, 2006, at 1:41 PM, michael wrote: > On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:56 -0500 > Kevin Reiter wrote: > >> All, >> >> Fairly simple (I think) question here: >> >> When echoing the date into a logfile from a script, I'm noticing the >> time never changes. >> >> Here's an example of the resulting log entries: >> >> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: www_data compressed. >> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Database dump done. >> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Checksums created. >> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Other stuff done. >> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Sending files to remote server... >> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Files sent. >> >> Here's the code snippet that defines the date format: >> >> DATE=`date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S'` >> >> Here's the actual code snippets in the script that echo the $DATE >> into the log: >> >> echo "$DATE: www_data compressed." >> www_backup.log >> echo "$DATE: Database dump done." >> www_backup.log >> echo "$DATE: Checksums created." >> www_backup.log >> ...etc... >> >> Is there a reason the time isn't updated when the script runs? I'm >> guessing here that the $DATE variable grabs the current time when the >> script kicks off and doesn't update it in real-time as the script >> proceeds - would that be a close guess? >> >> What would need to be changed in order for the current time to be >> entered into the logfile? Any assistance would be most appreciated. >> >> Kev > > At first blush, it looks like you only initialize $DATE once at the > start. So.. your assumption looks right from here. > > -- > > michael The easiest way to work around it would be to write a function called log which looks something like the example script below: #### Start Script function log() { NOW=$(date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S') echo "${NOW} - ${1}" } log "OMG" sleep 10 log "WTF" sleep 10 log "BBQ" #### End Script This was written in ksh, but it should work in bash or whatever inferior shell you use ;) Basically, you have a function called log that you pass a string, and then when the function gets called the variable $NOW gets set with the current date. (The variable $1 holds the string that you passed it.) example output: $ ./example.sh 12/29/2006 13:51:19 - OMG 12/29/2006 13:51:29 - WTF 12/29/2006 13:51:39 - BBQ From tux at penguinnetwerx.net Fri Dec 29 15:19:02 2006 From: tux at penguinnetwerx.net (Kevin Reiter) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:19:02 -0500 Subject: [nycbug-talk] Scripting(Date&Time) Question In-Reply-To: <925B86E8-6799-4963-8456-E20E244F2150@f2o.org> References: <45955F58.7000306@penguinnetwerx.net> <20061229134104.0d2c8811@dt.genoverly.com> <925B86E8-6799-4963-8456-E20E244F2150@f2o.org> Message-ID: <45957836.7050305@penguinnetwerx.net> Steven Kreuzer wrote: > On Dec 29, 2006, at 1:41 PM, michael wrote: > >> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:32:56 -0500 >> Kevin Reiter wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> Fairly simple (I think) question here: >>> >>> When echoing the date into a logfile from a script, I'm noticing the >>> time never changes. >>> >>> Here's an example of the resulting log entries: >>> >>> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: www_data compressed. >>> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Database dump done. >>> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Checksums created. >>> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Other stuff done. >>> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Sending files to remote server... >>> 12/29/2006 13:15:47: Files sent. >>> >>> Here's the code snippet that defines the date format: >>> >>> DATE=`date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S'` >>> >>> Here's the actual code snippets in the script that echo the $DATE >>> into the log: >>> >>> echo "$DATE: www_data compressed." >> www_backup.log >>> echo "$DATE: Database dump done." >> www_backup.log >>> echo "$DATE: Checksums created." >> www_backup.log >>> ...etc... >>> >>> Is there a reason the time isn't updated when the script runs? I'm >>> guessing here that the $DATE variable grabs the current time when the >>> script kicks off and doesn't update it in real-time as the script >>> proceeds - would that be a close guess? >>> >>> What would need to be changed in order for the current time to be >>> entered into the logfile? Any assistance would be most appreciated. >>> >>> Kev >> At first blush, it looks like you only initialize $DATE once at the >> start. So.. your assumption looks right from here. >> >> -- >> >> michael > > The easiest way to work around it would be to write a function called > log which looks something like the example script below: > > #### Start Script > function log() { > NOW=$(date +'%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S') > echo "${NOW} - ${1}" > } > > log "OMG" > sleep 10 > log "WTF" > sleep 10 > log "BBQ" > #### End Script > > This was written in ksh, but it should work in bash or whatever > inferior shell you use ;) > > Basically, you have a function called log that you pass a string, and > then when the function gets called the variable $NOW gets set with > the current date. (The variable $1 holds the string that you passed it.) > > example output: > > $ ./example.sh > 12/29/2006 13:51:19 - OMG > 12/29/2006 13:51:29 - WTF > 12/29/2006 13:51:39 - BBQ That's awesome (even if you used a korny shell to write it in :) Thanks!