From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sun Dec  2 14:28:42 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:28:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] holiday party and next meeting
Message-ID: <4753076A.3020200@ceetonetechnology.com>

First, remember that it's vital that everyone registers online for the 
holiday party at www.orgcom.info.  You will need to register to get in.

There will be no regular December meeting this week. . .

Second, I strongly recommend that those looking to attend Angelos' 
January 9th meeting read his paper in preparation. . .

We've done these types of meetings before. . . a bit more USENIXy. . . 
not really typical user group meetings. . . and it's sometimes difficult 
to bridge the world of academia and production.

Reading the paper should be a huge benefit to understanding the meeting 
topic. . .

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~angelos/Papers/2007/SSARES_ACSAC.pdf

g


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Tue Dec 11 13:12:42 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:12:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Holiday Party volunteers
Message-ID: <475ED31A.3040604@ceetonetechnology.com>

Things are looking good for Thursday's holiday party.

If you haven't registered, so do ASAP, since we'll be closing the list soon.

Like in 2004, we'll need some volunteers to show up to help out early, 
plus we'll need some people at the doors . . .

Contact me offlist if interested.

Thanks.

George


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 01:07:12 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 01:07:12 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mx record to domain name look up
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>

hello all,

I am looking for a site/tool that given a FQDN will provide all the
domains registered that use that as a mx record for their domain.


thanks,

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From lists at genoverly.net  Mon Dec 17 08:13:32 2007
From: lists at genoverly.net (michael)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:13:32 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mx record to domain name look up
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071217081332.049ab51d@openpad.genoverly.com>

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 01:07:12 -0500
"Marc Spitzer" <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:

> hello all,
> 
> I am looking for a site/tool that given a FQDN will provide all the
> domains registered that use that as a mx record for their domain.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> 
> marc
> -- 
> Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
> Albert Camus


robtex: "swiss army knife internet tool"

robtex has a pretty cool web frontend to the DNS database. You put in an
IP or domain and it brings back DNS related information.   

As an example, I put in nycbug.org: 
http://www.robtex.com/dns/nycbug.org.html

When you click the MX record (fulton.nycbug.org) you get standard DNS
stuff.  But if you scroll down you get the 'value-add' of having that
all that data in a database.  There is a small heading that may help:
"domains using this as mailserver"

Hope that helps.

-- 

michael


From ruben at mrbrklyn.com  Mon Dec 17 08:31:19 2007
From: ruben at mrbrklyn.com (Ruben Safir)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:31:19 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mx record to domain name look up
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071217133119.GA25425@www2.mrbrklyn.com>

On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 01:07:12AM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> hello all,
> 
> I am looking for a site/tool that given a FQDN will provide all the
> domains registered that use that as a mx record for their domain.
> 


Normally I use dig and whois

ruben at flatbush:~> dig mx mrbrklyn.com

; <<>> DiG 9.3.1 <<>> mx mrbrklyn.com
;; global options:  printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 21260
;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;mrbrklyn.com.                  IN      MX

;; ANSWER SECTION:
mrbrklyn.com.           86400   IN      MX      10 www2.mrbrklyn.com.

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
mrbrklyn.com.           86400   IN      NS      www2.mrbrklyn.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
www2.mrbrklyn.com.      86400   IN      A       68.167.17.98

;; Query time: 18 msec
;; SERVER: 10.0.0.5#53(10.0.0.5)
;; WHEN: Mon Dec 17 08:30:10 2007
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 81


ruben at flatbush:~>  whois mrbrklyn.com

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Domain Name: MRBRKLYN.COM
   Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
   Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
   Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
   Name Server: MAIL.RM-CPA.COM.LAMEDELEGATION.COM
   Name Server: WWW2.MRBRKLYN.COM
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Updated Date: 02-oct-2006
   Creation Date: 17-mar-2000
   Expiration Date: 17-mar-2008

>>> Last update of whois database: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:29:44 UTC <<<

NOTICE: The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the 
registrar's sponsorship of the domain name registration.....


Registrant:
SAFIR, RUBEN
   NYLXS
   1163 East 15th Street
   BROOKLYN, NY 11230-6710
   US

   Domain Name: MRBRKLYN.COM

   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Promote your business to millions of viewers for only $1 a month
   Learn how you can get an Enhanced Business Listing here for your domain name.
   Learn more at http://www.NetworkSolutions.com/
   ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
      SAFIR, RUBEN              ruben at mrbrklyn.com
      NYLXS
      1163 East 15th Street
      BROOKLYN, NY 11230-6710
      US
      1 718 715 1771 fax: 123 123 1234


   Record expires on 17-Mar-2008.
   Record created on 17-Mar-2000.
   Database last updated on 17-Dec-2007 08:30:26 EST.

   Domain servers in listed order:

   WWW2.MRBRKLYN.COM            68.167.17.98
   MAIL.RM-CPA.COM              64.0.231.98

> 
> thanks,
> 
> marc
> -- 
> Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
> Albert Camus
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software

So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world  - RI Safir 1998

http://fairuse.nylxs.com  DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002

"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

"The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."

"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt.  I guess you missed that one."

? Copyright for the Digital Millennium


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 11:33:43 2007
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:33:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mx record to domain name look up
In-Reply-To: <20071217133119.GA25425@www2.mrbrklyn.com>
References: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071217133119.GA25425@www2.mrbrklyn.com>
Message-ID: <aa9991030712170833k206020cdmfc352cd49eb60e23@mail.gmail.com>

I can top post and not read the thread as well! In fact I'm really
good at it ; ) What Marc was looking for was a tool where you can find
all of the domains/servers which use a certain mail exchange. It's
something dig cannot do. Dig can tell you "What MX?" Whereas Marc
wants to know "What domains?" That being said Michael pointed to a
really cool tool which I am actually very excited about and want to
test.
Speaking of DNS, you should probably use a yahoo (or other)  email for
your domain registration.
Just drizzling a little gasoline out there... smells good in the morning!

-jesse

On Dec 17, 2007 8:31 AM, Ruben Safir <ruben at mrbrklyn.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 01:07:12AM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> > hello all,
> >
> > I am looking for a site/tool that given a FQDN will provide all the
> > domains registered that use that as a mx record for their domain.
> >
>
>
> Normally I use dig and whois
>
> ruben at flatbush:~> dig mx mrbrklyn.com
>
> ; <<>> DiG 9.3.1 <<>> mx mrbrklyn.com
> ;; global options:  printcmd
> ;; Got answer:
> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 21260
> ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1
>
> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> ;mrbrklyn.com.                  IN      MX
>
> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
> mrbrklyn.com.           86400   IN      MX      10 www2.mrbrklyn.com.
>
> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> mrbrklyn.com.           86400   IN      NS      www2.mrbrklyn.com.
>
> ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
> www2.mrbrklyn.com.      86400   IN      A       68.167.17.98
>
> ;; Query time: 18 msec
> ;; SERVER: 10.0.0.5#53(10.0.0.5)
> ;; WHEN: Mon Dec 17 08:30:10 2007
> ;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 81
>
>
> ruben at flatbush:~>  whois mrbrklyn.com
>
> Whois Server Version 2.0
>
> Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
> with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
> for detailed information.
>
>    Domain Name: MRBRKLYN.COM
>    Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
>    Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
>    Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
>    Name Server: MAIL.RM-CPA.COM.LAMEDELEGATION.COM
>    Name Server: WWW2.MRBRKLYN.COM
>    Status: clientTransferProhibited
>    Updated Date: 02-oct-2006
>    Creation Date: 17-mar-2000
>    Expiration Date: 17-mar-2008
>
> >>> Last update of whois database: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:29:44 UTC <<<
>
> NOTICE: The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the
> registrar's sponsorship of the domain name registration.....
>
>
> Registrant:
> SAFIR, RUBEN
>    NYLXS
>    1163 East 15th Street
>    BROOKLYN, NY 11230-6710
>    US
>
>    Domain Name: MRBRKLYN.COM
>
>    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Promote your business to millions of viewers for only $1 a month
>    Learn how you can get an Enhanced Business Listing here for your domain name.
>    Learn more at http://www.NetworkSolutions.com/
>    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
>       SAFIR, RUBEN              ruben at mrbrklyn.com
>       NYLXS
>       1163 East 15th Street
>       BROOKLYN, NY 11230-6710
>       US
>       1 718 715 1771 fax: 123 123 1234
>
>
>    Record expires on 17-Mar-2008.
>    Record created on 17-Mar-2000.
>    Database last updated on 17-Dec-2007 08:30:26 EST.
>
>    Domain servers in listed order:
>
>    WWW2.MRBRKLYN.COM            68.167.17.98
>    MAIL.RM-CPA.COM              64.0.231.98
>
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > marc
> > --
> > Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
> > Albert Camus
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> --
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
> http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
>
> So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world  - RI Safir 1998
>
> http://fairuse.nylxs.com  DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
>
> "Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"
>
> "The tremendous problem we face is that we are becoming sharecroppers to our own cultural heritage -- we need the ability to participate in our own society."
>
> "> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
> You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt.  I guess you missed that one."
>
> (c) Copyright for the Digital Millennium
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 11:43:17 2007
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:43:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] mx record to domain name look up
In-Reply-To: <20071217081332.049ab51d@openpad.genoverly.com>
References: <8c50a3c30712162207v4fa0fdb8g2d0171cef455fcaa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071217081332.049ab51d@openpad.genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c30712170843g50f893cbi7fffe2da0352a95f@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2007 8:13 AM, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
>
>
> robtex: "swiss army knife internet tool"
>
> robtex has a pretty cool web frontend to the DNS database. You put in an
> IP or domain and it brings back DNS related information.
>
> As an example, I put in nycbug.org:
> http://www.robtex.com/dns/nycbug.org.html
>
> When you click the MX record (fulton.nycbug.org) you get standard DNS
> stuff.  But if you scroll down you get the 'value-add' of having that
> all that data in a database.  There is a small heading that may help:
> "domains using this as mailserver"
>
> Hope that helps.

Spot f__king( it's a family list) on dude.

Thanks,

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
Albert Camus


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Mon Dec 17 14:16:01 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:16:01 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] holiday party pictures
Message-ID: <4766CAF1.6010509@ceetonetechnology.com>

 From last thursday.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/orgcom-hp07/pool/

g


From jkeen at verizon.net  Tue Dec 18 22:54:14 2007
From: jkeen at verizon.net (James E Keenan)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:54:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Perl 5.10 released today
Message-ID: <5788E060-907C-40AC-BF78-E88110AE16CE@verizon.net>

Today, December 18, was Perl's 20th birthday -- and the birth day of  
a new Perl.

Perl 5.10 was released today and began to make its way to CPAN  
mirrors at around 4 pm ET.

I've so far successfully built it on Darwin and on Linux; can we get  
some tests on the various BSDs as well?

Here's one way to get the source from a CPAN mirror and build it:

wget http://cpan.pair.com/modules/by-authors/id/R/RG/RGARCIA/ 
perl-5.10.0.tar.gz
tar xzvf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz
cd perl-5.10.0
sh Configure -de
make
make test
make install

Enjoy!

Jim Keenan



From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Wed Dec 19 13:19:10 2007
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:19:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Announcing NetBSD 4.0
Message-ID: <20071219181910.GA60293@scruffy.exit2shell.com>

Congratulations to all the NetBSD developers.

You can read the full annoucement here:

http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-announce/2007/12/19/0000.html

If you are too lazy to click on the link, here is a cut and paste of the
major achievements from the email:

"Major  achievements in NetBSD 4.0 include support for version 3 of the
Xen  virtual  machine  monitor, Bluetooth, many new device drivers and
embedded  platforms  based  on ARM, PowerPC and MIPS CPUs. New network
services  include  iSCSI target (server) code and an implementation of
the  Common  Address  Redundancy  Protocol.  Also, system security was
further  enhanced  with  restrictions  of  mprotect(2)  to enforce W^X
policies,  the Kernel Authorization framework, and improvements of the
Veriexec  file  integrity  subsystem,  which can be used to harden the
system  against trojan horses and virus attacks."

--
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Wed Dec 19 13:28:54 2007
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:28:54 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Announcing NetBSD 4.0
In-Reply-To: <20071219181910.GA60293@scruffy.exit2shell.com>
References: <20071219181910.GA60293@scruffy.exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <20071219182854.GH4071@sunset.nomadlogic.org>

On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 01:19:10PM -0500, Steven Kreuzer wrote:
> Congratulations to all the NetBSD developers.
> 
> You can read the full annoucement here:
> 


if torrents are available i'd like to offer some bandwidth to get this
out there....i'd also love to test the iSCSI target code :)

-pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
310.869.9459



From jschauma at netmeister.org  Wed Dec 19 13:50:18 2007
From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:50:18 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Announcing NetBSD 4.0
In-Reply-To: <20071219182854.GH4071@sunset.nomadlogic.org>
References: <20071219181910.GA60293@scruffy.exit2shell.com>
	<20071219182854.GH4071@sunset.nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20071219185018.GH22814@netmeister.org>

Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 01:19:10PM -0500, Steven Kreuzer wrote:
> > Congratulations to all the NetBSD developers.
> > 
> > You can read the full annoucement here:
> > 
> 
> 
> if torrents are available i'd like to offer some bandwidth to get this
> out there....i'd also love to test the iSCSI target code :)

http://www.netbsd.org/mirrors/torrents/

-Jan

-- 
chown -R us:enemy your_base
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From pete at nomadlogic.org  Wed Dec 19 14:03:39 2007
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:03:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Announcing NetBSD 4.0
In-Reply-To: <20071219185018.GH22814@netmeister.org>
References: <20071219181910.GA60293@scruffy.exit2shell.com>
	<20071219182854.GH4071@sunset.nomadlogic.org>
	<20071219185018.GH22814@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: <20071219190339.GI4071@sunset.nomadlogic.org>

On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 10:50:18AM -0800, Jan Schaumann wrote:
> Pete Wright <pete at nomadlogic.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 01:19:10PM -0500, Steven Kreuzer wrote:
> > > Congratulations to all the NetBSD developers.
> > > 
> > > You can read the full annoucement here:
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > if torrents are available i'd like to offer some bandwidth to get this
> > out there....i'd also love to test the iSCSI target code :)
> 
> http://www.netbsd.org/mirrors/torrents/
> 

thx!  i've setup our freebsd cvsup mirror as a torrent node.

-pete


-- 
~~oO00Oo~~
Peter Wright
pete at nomadlogic.org
www.nomadlogic.org/~pete
310.869.9459



From jonathan at kc8onw.net  Wed Dec 19 18:01:05 2007
From: jonathan at kc8onw.net (Jonathan Stewart)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:01:05 +0300
Subject: [nycbug-talk] [VERY OT] Anyone know where to get an Altec Lansing
	BB2001
Message-ID: <4769A2B1.3010204@kc8onw.net>

Does anyone know somewhere to buy or someone willing to part with an
Altec Lansing BB2001 powered sub?  I didn't get one when I got the
speakers (XT2) and now it's discontinued and no one seems to have it in
stock.  Even Ebay and Amazon don't seem to have it.

Thanks,
Jonathan


From swygue at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 15:44:53 2007
From: swygue at gmail.com (Rodrique Heron)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:44:53 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
Message-ID: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>

Hello all-

Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed. I have two 
interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever both are 
enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the server. I'm not 
routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I 
don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.

I feel like I forgetting do something, I've done this plenty of times 
before. Any ideas ?



From lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org  Thu Dec 20 15:58:34 2007
From: lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org (Brian A. Seklecki)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:58:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071220155743.P41348@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Rodrique Heron wrote:

> Hello all-
>
> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed. I have two
> interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever both are
> enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the server. I'm not

Send us your "ifconfig -a", "netstat -rn -f inet", and "arp -an" output. 
Plus, any output from any command that is failing "incoming traffic".

~BAS

> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I
> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.
>
> I feel like I forgetting do something, I've done this plenty of times
> before. Any ideas ?
>
> _______________________________________________


From dan at langille.org  Thu Dec 20 15:58:14 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:58:14 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <476AD766.5010102@langille.org>

Rodrique Heron wrote:
> Hello all-
> 
> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed.

There may be issues, but I have run dual homed FreeBSD since 1998.


> I have two 
> interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever both are 
> enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the server. I'm not 
> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I 
> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.

AFAIK, you cannot route between the two UNLESS you have 
gateway_enable="YES" in /etc/rc.conf.

-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/


From dan at langille.org  Thu Dec 20 16:05:04 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:05:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>

... I think I misunderstood you in my original reply.

Rodrique Heron wrote:
> Hello all-
> 
> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed.

There may be issues, but I have run dual homed FreeBSD since 1998.


> I have two 
> interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever both are 
> enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the server.

Can you elaborate upon this?  It's not clear what you are trying to do.

So one NIC fails to work?  No traffic in or out?  Both nics?

Output of netstat -na would help us understand.

 > I'm not
> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I 
> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.

I originally said:
AFAIK, you cannot route between the two UNLESS you have
gateway_enable="YES" in /etc/rc.conf.

But what you mean is that you do not wish to route between the two 
subnets. The FreeBSD box is not a gateway.  It is merely dual homed.





-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/



From swygue at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 16:24:46 2007
From: swygue at gmail.com (Rodrique Heron)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:24:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
Message-ID: <476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>



Dan Langille wrote:
> ... I think I misunderstood you in my original reply.
>
> Rodrique Heron wrote:
>> Hello all-
>>
>> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed.
>
> There may be issues, but I have run dual homed FreeBSD since 1998.
>
>
>> I have two interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever 
>> both are enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the server.
>
> Can you elaborate upon this?  It's not clear what you are trying to do.
>
> So one NIC fails to work?  No traffic in or out?  Both nics?
>
> Output of netstat -na would help us understand.
>
> > I'm not
>> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I 
>> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.
>
> I originally said:
> AFAIK, you cannot route between the two UNLESS you have
> gateway_enable="YES" in /etc/rc.conf.
>
> But what you mean is that you do not wish to route between the two 
> subnets. The FreeBSD box is not a gateway.  It is merely dual homed.
>
>
>
>
Hope this helps-


# sockstat -4
root     sendmail   628   3  tcp4   127.0.0.1:25          *:*
root     sshd       609   4  tcp4   *:22                  *:*





# ifconfig -a

em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500

        options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>

        inet 150.210.240.36 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 150.210.240.255

        ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2e

        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)

        status: active

em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500

        options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>

        inet 150.210.160.243 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 150.210.160.255

        ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2f

        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)

        status: active

lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 16384

        inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3

        inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128

        inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000

       

       

# arp -an

? (150.210.160.204) at 00:00:5e:00:01:04 on em1 [ethernet]

? (150.210.160.214) at 00:0b:db:90:73:1f on em1 [ethernet]

? (150.210.160.227) at 00:11:43:ef:ba:36 on em1 [ethernet]

? (150.210.160.254) at 00:00:0c:07:ac:04 on em1 [ethernet]

? (150.210.240.32) at 00:0c:29:62:78:63 on em0 [ethernet]

? (150.210.240.39) at 00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c on em0 [ethernet]

? (150.210.240.55) at 00:1a:64:24:ce:bc on em0 [ethernet]





# netstat -rn -f inet

Routing tables



Internet:

Destination        Gateway            Flags    Refs      Use  Netif Expire

default            150.210.160.254    UGS         0      415    em1

127.0.0.1          127.0.0.1          UH          0        0    lo0

150.210.160/24     link#2             UC          0        0    em1

150.210.160.204    00:00:5e:00:01:04  UHLW        1       18    em1    552

150.210.160.214    00:0b:db:90:73:1f  UHLW        1        5    em1    654

150.210.160.227    00:11:43:ef:ba:36  UHLW        1        3    em1    747

150.210.160.254    00:00:0c:07:ac:04  UHLW        2        0    em1    547

150.210.240/24     link#1             UC          0        0    em0

150.210.240.32     00:0c:29:62:78:63  UHLW        1        6    em0    547

150.210.240.39     00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c  UHLW        1       12    em0    547

150.210.240.55     00:1a:64:24:ce:bc  UHLW        1        8    em0    743






From lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org  Thu Dec 20 16:32:24 2007
From: lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org (Brian A. Seklecki)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:32:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071220162729.G41348@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>


Okay dual verizon adsl lines.  A common question.

I'm assuming that you're trying to serve certain services off-of 
150.210.240/24 and wondering why packets from 3rd party nework sources get 
there but not reply.

There can only be one default gateway.  The gateway selection decision is 
not based on any type of "state" table (by default), so:

1) A packet received on em0 with a foreign network source address and a 
destination address of 150.210.240.x/32 will be received, decapsulated, 
processed by the kernel -- the reply packet will be generated and 
transmitted out of em1 with a source address of 150.210.160.xxx/32 and a 
destination of [foreign].

Its just the nature of the TCP/IP stack and "standard" routing.

I've seen discussion on misc at openbsd.org on a pf(4) feature that somehow 
works around this.

~BAS


> Internet:
>
> Destination        Gateway            Flags    Refs      Use  Netif Expire
>
> default            150.210.160.254    UGS         0      415    em1
>
> 150.210.160/24     link#2             UC          0        0    em1
>
> 150.210.240/24     link#1             UC          0        0    em0
>
> 150.210.240.32     00:0c:29:62:78:63  UHLW        1        6    em0    547


From swygue at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 16:48:46 2007
From: swygue at gmail.com (Rodrique Heron)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:48:46 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <20071220162729.G41348@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<20071220162729.G41348@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>
Message-ID: <476AE33E.9040809@gmail.com>



Brian A. Seklecki wrote:
>
> Okay dual verizon adsl lines.  A common question.
>
> I'm assuming that you're trying to serve certain services off-of 
> 150.210.240/24 and wondering why packets from 3rd party nework sources 
> get there but not reply.
The service in question is SSH, as you can see from my netstat output:

root     sshd       609   4  tcp4   *:22                  *:*

It's listening on all available interface, so I should be able to 
connect from 150.210.240/24 or /150.210.160/24. I don't seem to have 
this problem when one interface is configured on a private address 
space. i.e. 192.168.2.0/24.



>
> There can only be one default gateway.  The gateway selection decision 
> is not based on any type of "state" table (by default), so:
>
> 1) A packet received on em0 with a foreign network source address and 
> a destination address of 150.210.240.x/32 will be received, 
> decapsulated, processed by the kernel -- the reply packet will be 
> generated and transmitted out of em1 with a source address of 
> 150.210.160.xxx/32 and a destination of [foreign].
>
> Its just the nature of the TCP/IP stack and "standard" routing.
>
> I've seen discussion on misc at openbsd.org on a pf(4) feature that 
> somehow works around this.
>
> ~BAS
>
>
>> Internet:
>>
>> Destination        Gateway            Flags    Refs      Use  Netif 
>> Expire
>>
>> default            150.210.160.254    UGS         0      415    em1
>>
>> 150.210.160/24     link#2             UC          0        0    em1
>>
>> 150.210.240/24     link#1             UC          0        0    em0
>>
>> 150.210.240.32     00:0c:29:62:78:63  UHLW        1        6    
>> em0    547


From carton at Ivy.NET  Thu Dec 20 18:57:25 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:57:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476AE33E.9040809@gmail.com> (Rodrique Heron's message of "Thu,
	20 Dec 2007 16:48:46 -0500")
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<20071220162729.G41348@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>
	<476AE33E.9040809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oqmys4kjh6.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "rh" == Rodrique Heron <swygue at gmail.com> writes:

    rh> It's listening on all available interface, so I should be able
    rh> to connect from 150.210.240/24 or /150.210.160/24.

You sure can.  What you perhaps cannot do, is connect from 1.2.3.4 to
150.210.240.36.  

Sometimes this will work anyway if the ISP doesn't enforce uRPF, but
it can never work if the DSL to which your default route is pointing
goes down, so you have no real redundancy.
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From brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 20:19:35 2007
From: brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com (Brian McGonigle)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:19:35 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8e835900712201719hb190436hbe9d33efb7ab65d7@mail.gmail.com>

Try lowering the MTU or disabling PMTU discovery. I have never seen PMTU
discovery work on FreeBSD. I always use a lower MTU when going over a WAN.

On Dec 20, 2007 4:24 PM, Rodrique Heron <swygue at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Dan Langille wrote:
> > ... I think I misunderstood you in my original reply.
> >
> > Rodrique Heron wrote:
> >> Hello all-
> >>
> >> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed.
> >
> > There may be issues, but I have run dual homed FreeBSD since 1998.
> >
> >
> >> I have two interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever
> >> both are enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the
> server.
> >
> > Can you elaborate upon this?  It's not clear what you are trying to do.
> >
> > So one NIC fails to work?  No traffic in or out?  Both nics?
> >
> > Output of netstat -na would help us understand.
> >
> > > I'm not
> >> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I
> >> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.
> >
> > I originally said:
> > AFAIK, you cannot route between the two UNLESS you have
> > gateway_enable="YES" in /etc/rc.conf.
> >
> > But what you mean is that you do not wish to route between the two
> > subnets. The FreeBSD box is not a gateway.  It is merely dual homed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Hope this helps-
>
>
> # sockstat -4
> root     sendmail   628   3  tcp4   127.0.0.1:25          *:*
> root     sshd       609   4  tcp4   *:22                  *:*
>
>
>
>
>
> # ifconfig -a
>
> em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
>
>        options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>
>
>        inet 150.210.240.36 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 150.210.240.255
>
>        ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2e
>
>        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)
>
>        status: active
>
> em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
>
>        options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>
>
>        inet 150.210.160.243 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 150.210.160.255
>
>        ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2f
>
>        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)
>
>        status: active
>
> lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 16384
>
>        inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3
>
>        inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128
>
>        inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000
>
>
>
>
>
> # arp -an
>
> ? (150.210.160.204) at 00:00:5e:00:01:04 on em1 [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.160.214) at 00:0b:db:90:73:1f on em1 [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.160.227) at 00:11:43:ef:ba:36 on em1 [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.160.254) at 00:00:0c:07:ac:04 on em1 [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.240.32) at 00:0c:29:62:78:63 on em0 [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.240.39) at 00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c on em0 [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.240.55) at 00:1a:64:24:ce:bc on em0 [ethernet]
>
>
>
>
>
> # netstat -rn -f inet
>
> Routing tables
>
>
>
> Internet:
>
> Destination        Gateway            Flags    Refs      Use  Netif Expire
>
> default            150.210.160.254    UGS         0      415    em1
>
> 127.0.0.1          127.0.0.1          UH          0        0    lo0
>
> 150.210.160/24     link#2             UC          0        0    em1
>
> 150.210.160.204    00:00:5e:00:01:04  UHLW        1       18    em1    552
>
> 150.210.160.214    00:0b:db:90:73:1f  UHLW        1        5    em1    654
>
> 150.210.160.227    00:11:43:ef:ba:36  UHLW        1        3    em1    747
>
> 150.210.160.254    00:00:0c:07:ac:04  UHLW        2        0    em1    547
>
> 150.210.240/24     link#1             UC          0        0    em0
>
> 150.210.240.32     00:0c:29:62:78:63  UHLW        1        6    em0    547
>
> 150.210.240.39     00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c  UHLW        1       12    em0    547
>
> 150.210.240.55     00:1a:64:24:ce:bc  UHLW        1        8    em0    743
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 21:26:39 2007
From: brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com (Brian McGonigle)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:26:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <490140674-1198200945-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-966425660-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<8e835900712201719hb190436hbe9d33efb7ab65d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<490140674-1198200945-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-966425660-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8e835900712201826k5d3570c0p3cb14625f8d19782@mail.gmail.com>

I just figured it was worth a try :-). Someone mentioned they were DSL lines
and I thought the MTU would've been lower on a DSL interface. I've never
used FreeBSD with DSL so it was just a guess. It sounds like you're right
though.

We can't get PMTU on FreeBSD to work over the GRE tunnels between our data
centers. I've ran tcpdumps while transferring files and can see the ICMP
"destination unreachable, need to fragment" packets but FreeBSD doesn't seem
to do anything about them. On the other hand, a linux box on the same subnet
can transfer to the same destination. Actually, the only time FreeBSD does
work over the tunnels is when transferring to a linux box. My theory is that
linux is properly discovering the MTU and FreeBSD is getting the lower MTU
during the tcp handshake. If I'm wrong, I'd like to start a new thread
because I'd love to find a better fix than disabling PMTU.

On Dec 20, 2007 8:35 PM, Trish Lynch <trish at bsdunix.net> wrote:

> What does PMTU discovery have anything to do with the dual homes box - I
> think the one thing to try is enabling source routing.
>
> See - you can only have one default route - so all traffic only passes out
> one interface, when connecting to the other - the one without the route, the
> packets try and go out the *default* route instead of being routed out of
> the interface the connection is on.
>
> Turn on net.inet.ip.sourceroute,  net.inet.ip.accept_sourceroute, and
> net.inet.ip.forwarding and I bet it will work.
>
> (You can also use some other trickery as well, but this is more "correct",
> and yes I'm aware of the implications aregarding spoofed packets, but in
> order to be able to arbitrarily choose the route to use, these need to be
> anabled)
>
> FWIW , I've seen path MTU discovery work just fine on FreeBSD unless
> someone has blocked the ICMP packets needed for it to work. (Type 3, code
> 4). Most of the problems people report with PMTU are people being for lack
> of a better term, *clueless* and filtering ICMP indiscriminately. I'd still
> like to know what MTU has to do with the ability to not route over a certain
> network.
>
> -Trish
> --
> Trish Lynch
> M: 646-401-1405
> H: 201-378-0434
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Brian McGonigle" <brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:19:35
> To:talk at lists.nycbug.org
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
>
>
> Try lowering the MTU or disabling PMTU discovery. I have never seen PMTU
> discovery work on FreeBSD. I always use a lower MTU when going over a WAN.
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2007 4:24 PM, Rodrique Heron < swygue at gmail.com <mailto:
> swygue at gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>
>
> Dan Langille wrote:
> > ... I think I misunderstood you in my original reply.
> >
> > Rodrique Heron wrote:
> >> Hello all-
> >>
> >> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed.
> >
> > There may be issues, but I have run dual homed FreeBSD since 1998.
> >
> >
> >> I have two interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever
> >> both are enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the
> server.
> >
> > Can you elaborate upon this? It's not clear what you are trying to do.
> >
> > So one NIC fails to work? No traffic in or out? Both nics?
> >
> > Output of netstat -na would help us understand.
> >
> > > I'm not
> >> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I
> >> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.
> >
> > I originally said:
> > AFAIK, you cannot route between the two UNLESS you have
> > gateway_enable="YES" in /etc/rc.conf.
> >
> > But what you mean is that you do not wish to route between the two
> > subnets. The FreeBSD box is not a gateway. It is merely dual homed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Hope this helps-
>
>
> # sockstat -4
> root sendmail 628 3 tcp4 127.0.0.1:25 <http://127.0.0.1:25>   *:*
> root sshd 609 4 tcp4 *:22 *:*
>
>
>
>
>
> # ifconfig -a
>
> em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
>
>   options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>
>
>   inet
> 150.210.240.36 <http://150.210.240.36>  netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast
> 150.210.240.255 <http://150.210.240.255>
>
>   ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2e
>
>   media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)
>
>   status: active
>
> em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
>
>   options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>
>
>   inet
> 150.210.160.243 <http://150.210.160.243>  netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast
> 150.210.160.255 <http://150.210.160.255>
>
>   ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2f
>
>   media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)
>
>   status: active
>
> lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 16384
>
>   inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3
>
>   inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128
>
>   inet
> 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>  netmask 0xff000000
>
>
>
>
>
> # arp -an
>
> ? (150.210.160.204 <http://150.210.160.204> ) at 00:00:5e:00:01:04 on em1
> [ethernet]
>
> ? (
> 150.210.160.214 <http://150.210.160.214> ) at 00:0b:db:90:73:1f on em1
> [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.160.227 <http://150.210.160.227> ) at 00:11:43:ef:ba:36 on em1
> [ethernet]
>
> ? (
> 150.210.160.254 <http://150.210.160.254> ) at 00:00:0c:07:ac:04 on em1
> [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.240.32 <http://150.210.240.32> ) at 00:0c:29:62:78:63 on em0
> [ethernet]
>
> ? (
> 150.210.240.39 <http://150.210.240.39> ) at 00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c on em0
> [ethernet]
>
> ? (150.210.240.55 <http://150.210.240.55> ) at 00:1a:64:24:ce:bc on em0
> [ethernet]
>
>
>
>
>
> # netstat -rn -f inet
>
> Routing tables
>
>
>
> Internet:
>
> Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire
>
> default 150.210.160.254 <http://150.210.160.254>   UGS 0 415 em1
>
> 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>   127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>   UH 0 0 lo0
>
> 150.210.160/24 link#2 UC 0 0 em1
>
> 150.210.160.204 <http://150.210.160.204>   00:00:5e:00:01:04 UHLW 1 18 em1
> 552
>
> 150.210.160.214 <http://150.210.160.214>   00:0b:db:90:73:1f UHLW 1 5 em1
> 654
>
> 150.210.160.227 <http://150.210.160.227>   00:11:43:ef:ba:36 UHLW 1 3 em1
> 747
>
> 150.210.160.254 <http://150.210.160.254>   00:00:0c:07:ac:04 UHLW 2 0 em1
> 547
>
> 150.210.240/24 link#1 UC 0 0 em0
>
> 150.210.240.32 <http://150.210.240.32>   00:0c:29:62:78:63 UHLW 1 6 em0
> 547
>
>
> 150.210.240.39 <http://150.210.240.39>   00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c UHLW 1 12 em0
> 547
>
> 150.210.240.55 <http://150.210.240.55>   00:1a:64:24:ce:bc UHLW 1 8 em0
> 743
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org <mailto:talk at lists.nycbug.org>
>
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk <
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
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From lists at kittypee.com  Thu Dec 20 23:17:43 2007
From: lists at kittypee.com (Lonnie Olson)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:17:43 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>

On Dec 20, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Rodrique Heron wrote:
> # ifconfig -a
> em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
>        inet 150.210.240.36 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast  
> 150.210.240.255
> em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
>        inet 150.210.160.243 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast  
> 150.210.160.255

> # netstat -rn -f inet
> Routing tables
> Internet:
> Destination        Gateway            Flags    Refs      Use  Netif  
> Expire
> default            150.210.160.254    UGS         0      415    em1
> 150.210.160/24     link#2             UC          0        0    em1
> 150.210.240/24     link#1             UC          0        0    em0

You could have a problem with your ISP using some sort of anti IP  
spoofing measures.
An SSH connection to 150.210.240.36 would not work in that case.

The incoming packets will come in on the em0 interface as expected,  
but outgoing packets will travel out of the em1 interface.  All  
routing decisions are solely based on the destination address, and  
have nothing to do with the source address.  And you default route is  
150.210.160.254 which lies on the em1 interface.

Anti IP spoofing measures would cause a problem here.  In general your  
ISP could be filtering traffic coming from your em1 interface that  
does not have a source address of 150.210.160.0/24.   Probably the  
same as filtering traffic coming from em0 that does not have a source  
of 150.210.240.0/24.  This type of filtering can be fairly common,  
since it is rarely problematic, easy to implement, and reduces lots of  
abuse.

If this is the case, connections to 150.210.160.243 should work fine.   
Solutions to this problem are having your ISP allow both subnets on  
both interfaces, or using some other magic to make routing decisions  
based on source address.

If this isn't the case, it may take some tcpdump'ing to watch the  
traffic on the interfaces to see what is really happening.

--lonnie



From swygue at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 23:21:59 2007
From: swygue at gmail.com (swygue)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:21:59 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <8e835900712201826k5d3570c0p3cb14625f8d19782@mail.gmail.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<8e835900712201719hb190436hbe9d33efb7ab65d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<490140674-1198200945-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-966425660-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8e835900712201826k5d3570c0p3cb14625f8d19782@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f30712202021i2f09f0afl26f71075f5f52e22@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 20, 2007 9:26 PM, Brian McGonigle <brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com> wrote:
> I just figured it was worth a try :-). Someone mentioned they were DSL lines
> and I thought the MTU would've been lower on a DSL interface. I've never
> used FreeBSD with DSL so it was just a guess. It sounds like you're right
> though.
>
> We can't get PMTU on FreeBSD to work over the GRE tunnels between our data
> centers. I've ran tcpdumps while transferring files and can see the ICMP
> "destination unreachable, need to fragment" packets but FreeBSD doesn't seem
> to do anything about them. On the other hand, a linux box on the same subnet
> can transfer to the same destination. Actually, the only time FreeBSD does
> work over the tunnels is when transferring to a linux box. My theory is that
> linux is properly discovering the MTU and FreeBSD is getting the lower MTU
> during the tcp handshake. If I'm wrong, I'd like to start a new thread
> because I'd love to find a better fix than disabling PMTU.
>
> On Dec 20, 2007 8:35 PM, Trish Lynch <trish at bsdunix.net> wrote:
> > What does PMTU discovery have anything to do with the dual homes box - I
> think the one thing to try is enabling source routing.
> >
> > See - you can only have one default route - so all traffic only passes out
> one interface, when connecting to the other - the one without the route, the
> packets try and go out the *default* route instead of being routed out of
> the interface the connection is on.
> >
> > Turn on net.inet.ip.sourceroute,  net.inet.ip.accept_sourceroute, and
> net.inet.ip.forwarding and I bet it will work.

Trish-

That's a no go, I enabled in /etc/sysctl.conf and rebooted.

net.inet.ip.sourceroute=1
net.inet.ip.accept_sourceroute=1
net.inet.ip.forwarding=1


> >
> > (You can also use some other trickery as well, but this is more "correct",
> and yes I'm aware of the implications aregarding spoofed packets, but in
> order to be able to arbitrarily choose the route to use, these need to be
> anabled)
> >
> > FWIW , I've seen path MTU discovery work just fine on FreeBSD unless
> someone has blocked the ICMP packets needed for it to work. (Type 3, code
> 4). Most of the problems people report with PMTU are people being for lack
> of a better term, *clueless* and filtering ICMP indiscriminately. I'd still
> like to know what MTU has to do with the ability to not route over a certain
> network.
> >
> > -Trish
> > --
> > Trish Lynch
> > M: 646-401-1405
> > H: 201-378-0434
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Brian McGonigle" <brian.mcgonigle at gmail.com >
> >
> > Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:19:35
> > To:talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
> >
> >
> > Try lowering the MTU or disabling PMTU discovery. I have never seen PMTU
> discovery work on FreeBSD. I always use a lower MTU when going over a WAN.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 20, 2007 4:24 PM, Rodrique Heron < swygue at gmail.com
> <mailto:swygue at gmail.com> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan Langille wrote:
> > > ... I think I misunderstood you in my original reply.
> > >
> > > Rodrique Heron wrote:
> > >> Hello all-
> > >>
> > >> Are there any known issues when FreeBSD is dual homed.
> > >
> > > There may be issues, but I have run dual homed FreeBSD since 1998.
> > >
> > >
> > >> I have two interfaces, each connected to a different subnet. Whenever
> > >> both are enabled I can't get any incoming network traffic to the
> server.
> > >
> > > Can you elaborate upon this? It's not clear what you are trying to do.
> > >
> > > So one NIC fails to work? No traffic in or out? Both nics?
> > >
> > > Output of netstat -na would help us understand.
> > >
> > > > I'm not
> > >> routing between the two, therefore no "gateway_enable" in rc.conf. I
> > >> don't have any firewalls enabled, I do have my defaultrouter set.
> > >
> > > I originally said:
> > > AFAIK, you cannot route between the two UNLESS you have
> > > gateway_enable="YES" in /etc/rc.conf.
> > >
> > > But what you mean is that you do not wish to route between the two
> > > subnets. The FreeBSD box is not a gateway. It is merely dual homed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Hope this helps-
> >
> >
> > # sockstat -4
> > root sendmail 628 3 tcp4 127.0.0.1:25 <http://127.0.0.1:25>   *:*
> >
> > root sshd 609 4 tcp4 *:22 *:*
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > # ifconfig -a
> >
> > em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
> >
> >   options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>
> >
> >   inet
> > 150.210.240.36 <http://150.210.240.36>  netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast
> 150.210.240.255 < http://150.210.240.255>
> >
> >
> >   ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2e
> >
> >   media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)
> >
> >   status: active
> >
> > em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
> >
> >   options=b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU>
> >
> >   inet
> > 150.210.160.243 <http://150.210.160.243>  netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast
> 150.210.160.255 <http://150.210.160.255>
> >
> >
> >   ether 00:14:22:23:1a:2f
> >
> >   media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseTX <full-duplex>)
> >
> >   status: active
> >
> > lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 16384
> >
> >   inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3
> >
> >   inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128
> >
> >   inet
> > 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>  netmask 0xff000000
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > # arp -an
> >
> > ? (150.210.160.204 < http://150.210.160.204> ) at 00:00:5e:00:01:04 on em1
> [ethernet]
> >
> > ? (
> > 150.210.160.214 < http://150.210.160.214> ) at 00:0b:db:90:73:1f on em1
> [ethernet]
> >
> > ? (150.210.160.227 <http://150.210.160.227 > ) at 00:11:43:ef:ba:36 on em1
> [ethernet]
> >
> > ? (
> > 150.210.160.254 <http://150.210.160.254> ) at 00:00:0c:07:ac:04 on em1
> [ethernet]
> >
> > ? (150.210.240.32 <http://150.210.240.32> ) at 00:0c:29:62:78:63 on em0
> [ethernet]
> >
> > ? (
> > 150.210.240.39 <http://150.210.240.39> ) at 00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c on em0
> [ethernet]
> >
> > ? (150.210.240.55 < http://150.210.240.55> ) at 00:1a:64:24:ce:bc on em0
> [ethernet]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > # netstat -rn -f inet
> >
> > Routing tables
> >
> >
> >
> > Internet:
> >
> > Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire
> >
> > default 150.210.160.254 <http://150.210.160.254>   UGS 0 415 em1
> >
> > 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>   127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>   UH 0 0 lo0
> >
> >
> > 150.210.160/24 link#2 UC 0 0 em1
> >
> > 150.210.160.204 <http://150.210.160.204>   00:00:5e:00:01:04 UHLW 1 18 em1
> 552
> >
> > 150.210.160.214 <http://150.210.160.214>   00:0b:db:90:73:1f UHLW 1 5 em1
> 654
> >
> > 150.210.160.227 <http://150.210.160.227>   00:11:43:ef:ba:36 UHLW 1 3 em1
> 747
> >
> > 150.210.160.254 <http://150.210.160.254>   00:00:0c:07:ac:04 UHLW 2 0 em1
> 547
> >
> >
> > 150.210.240/24 link#1 UC 0 0 em0
> >
> > 150.210.240.32 <http://150.210.240.32>   00:0c:29:62:78:63 UHLW 1 6 em0
> 547
> >
> >
> > 150.210.240.39 <http://150.210.240.39>   00:0c:29:f8:e7:2c UHLW 1 12 em0
> 547
> >
> > 150.210.240.55 < http://150.210.240.55>   00:1a:64:24:ce:bc UHLW 1 8 em0
> 743
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org <mailto:talk at lists.nycbug.org>
> >
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk <
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at lists.nycbug.org
> > http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>



-- 
swygue neron --->>


From nikolai at fetissov.org  Thu Dec 20 23:32:29 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:32:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
Message-ID: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

And how's this for holiday entertainment :)
--
 nikolai
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From lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org  Thu Dec 20 23:33:27 2007
From: lavalamp at spiritual-machines.org (Brian A. Seklecki)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:33:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>
Message-ID: <20071220232759.D41348@arbitor.digitalfreaks.org>

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Lonnie Olson wrote:

> routing decisions are solely based on the destination address, and
> have nothing to do with the source address.  And you default route is

Or more-accurately, the source address of the original SYN packet that 
initiated the TCP socket/connection.  Because IP datagram and Ethernet 
packet switching decisions are made autonamous of TCP state tables (At a 
different layer by different code, by design).



From lists at kittypee.com  Thu Dec 20 23:33:37 2007
From: lists at kittypee.com (Lonnie Olson)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:33:37 -0700
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>
Message-ID: <17E9A3A3-A23F-4654-9B46-E1D971387CCD@kittypee.com>

On Dec 20, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Lonnie Olson wrote:
> If this is the case, connections to 150.210.160.243 should work fine.
> Solutions to this problem are having your ISP allow both subnets on
> both interfaces, or using some other magic to make routing decisions
> based on source address.

Some possible places for making the source routing (aka policy  
routing) magic work.

PF based firewall
http://openbsd.org/faq/pf/pools.html#outgoing
IPFW based firewall
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-security/2004-April/001839.html

--lonnie


From swygue at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 23:45:39 2007
From: swygue at gmail.com (swygue)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:45:39 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] FreeBSD Dual homed
In-Reply-To: <DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>
References: <476AD445.5000300@gmail.com> <476AD900.7040509@langille.org>
	<476ADD9E.6070205@gmail.com>
	<DAC8A032-546C-492E-BFE9-98BF29FC7FCC@kittypee.com>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f30712202045p42021449p7a012f65b1231ede@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 20, 2007 11:17 PM, Lonnie Olson <lists at kittypee.com> wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Rodrique Heron wrote:
> > # ifconfig -a
> > em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
> >        inet 150.210.240.36 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast
> > 150.210.240.255
> > em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
> >        inet 150.210.160.243 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast
> > 150.210.160.255
>
> > # netstat -rn -f inet
> > Routing tables
> > Internet:
> > Destination        Gateway            Flags    Refs      Use  Netif
> > Expire
> > default            150.210.160.254    UGS         0      415    em1
> > 150.210.160/24     link#2             UC          0        0    em1
> > 150.210.240/24     link#1             UC          0        0    em0
>
> You could have a problem with your ISP using some sort of anti IP
> spoofing measures.
> An SSH connection to 150.210.240.36 would not work in that case.
>
> The incoming packets will come in on the em0 interface as expected,
> but outgoing packets will travel out of the em1 interface.  All
> routing decisions are solely based on the destination address, and
> have nothing to do with the source address.  And you default route is
> 150.210.160.254 which lies on the em1 interface.
>
> Anti IP spoofing measures would cause a problem here.  In general your
> ISP could be filtering traffic coming from your em1 interface that
> does not have a source address of 150.210.160.0/24.   Probably the
> same as filtering traffic coming from em0 that does not have a source
> of 150.210.240.0/24.  This type of filtering can be fairly common,
> since it is rarely problematic, easy to implement, and reduces lots of
> abuse.
>
> If this is the case, connections to 150.210.160.243 should work fine.
> Solutions to this problem are having your ISP allow both subnets on
> both interfaces, or using some other magic to make routing decisions
> based on source address.
>
> If this isn't the case, it may take some tcpdump'ing to watch the
> traffic on the interfaces to see what is really happening.
>

Lonnie-

I think you are onto something here, this makes allot of sense to me.

> --lonnie
>
>



-- 
swygue neron --->>


From yds at CoolRat.org  Fri Dec 21 03:23:58 2007
From: yds at CoolRat.org (Yarema)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 03:23:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Install FreeBSD on a ZFS system 'root' partition
	HOWTO scripts
Message-ID: <184D0D0EE2CA21CC1020BB8F@silvr.coolrat.org>

Hi,

At a recent NYC*BUG meeting Isaac Levy <ike at lesmuug.org> suggested I let 
you know about my efforts to make installing FreeBSD root-on-zfs relatively 
painless.  The scripts and writeup can be found at 
http://yds.CoolRat.org/zfsboot/

I've used this zfsboot script to install onto a single drive and also onto 
a four drive raidz with good results.  And I used the usbinstall script to 
prepare a bootable USB flash disk for running the zfsboot install.

Thanks for making ZFS on FreeBSD a reality.

-- 
Yarema
http://yds.CoolRat.org


From andy.kosela at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 14:01:20 2007
From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:01:20 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 21, 2007 5:32 AM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
> And how's this for holiday entertainment :)

Yes the terminal on the iphone is definetly bangin, i can ssh to any remote
server and do a regular administration work basically from anywhere!
I'm still missing nmap though, I need to dig deeper into iphone's toolchain.
As for real entertainment there is now ScummVM port so I can play all
my favorite
LucasArts and Sierra classic adventure games.

PS. and of course iphone also has frotz to play IF games :)

--
Andy Kosela


From lists at genoverly.net  Fri Dec 21 15:16:52 2007
From: lists at genoverly.net (michael)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:16:52 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:01:20 +0100
"Andy Kosela" <andy.kosela at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 21, 2007 5:32 AM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
> > And how's this for holiday entertainment :)

entertainment.. yes! cool shot, nikolai.

> .. i can ssh to any remote server and do a regular administration
> work basically from anywhere! 

<opinion>

heh.. 'regular'?   Yes, there is a prompt.

You must have very fast and very skinny fingers! Otherwise it is one
key at time with a stylus.  Think about it, what emergency absolutely
needs to be answered from a busy street corner; on a tiny screen that
is only 40 chars wide and 20 lines tall?  

Stuck in the mens room?  You can wipe faster than you type.
Stuck in a meeting?  choose: participate in the meeting or leave.
Stuck at mom's house for the holidays?  where's your laptop?
Stuck in a cab in traffic?  Yea, lets diagnose that core dump at 40x20.
Stuck on 4 hour train ride? Is this daily?  Then get evdo.
Stuck out in the desert?  umm.. you have cell coverage?
Stuck up on Everest?  wait.. who *are* you?
Stuck [insert weird edge case here]?  phew, I bet you are glad you spent
all that money on a mobile phone for this one-chance-in-a-million
crisis!  It could be hours before I get a chance to diagnose and fix
this mission critical emergency at a regular machine!

Face it, there are not too many things that need to be done (or
actually *can* be done easily) that can not wait until you get to a
readable screen, a usable keyboard, and a decent connection.

This is an entertaining novelty, at best.. iphone-fan-boy-ism at worst.

</opinion>


-- 

michael


From nikolai at fetissov.org  Fri Dec 21 16:15:53 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:15:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <32594.204.153.88.2.1198271753.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:01:20 +0100
> "Andy Kosela" <andy.kosela at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 21, 2007 5:32 AM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
>> > And how's this for holiday entertainment :)
>
> entertainment.. yes! cool shot, nikolai.
>
>> .. i can ssh to any remote server and do a regular administration
>> work basically from anywhere!
>
> <opinion>
>
> heh.. 'regular'?   Yes, there is a prompt.
>
> You must have very fast and very skinny fingers! Otherwise it is one
> key at time with a stylus.  Think about it, what emergency absolutely
> needs to be answered from a busy street corner; on a tiny screen that
> is only 40 chars wide and 20 lines tall?
>
> Stuck in the mens room?  You can wipe faster than you type.
> Stuck in a meeting?  choose: participate in the meeting or leave.
> Stuck at mom's house for the holidays?  where's your laptop?
> Stuck in a cab in traffic?  Yea, lets diagnose that core dump at 40x20.
> Stuck on 4 hour train ride? Is this daily?  Then get evdo.
> Stuck out in the desert?  umm.. you have cell coverage?
> Stuck up on Everest?  wait.. who *are* you?
> Stuck [insert weird edge case here]?  phew, I bet you are glad you spent
> all that money on a mobile phone for this one-chance-in-a-million
> crisis!  It could be hours before I get a chance to diagnose and fix
> this mission critical emergency at a regular machine!
>
> Face it, there are not too many things that need to be done (or
> actually *can* be done easily) that can not wait until you get to a
> readable screen, a usable keyboard, and a decent connection.
>
> This is an entertaining novelty, at best.. iphone-fan-boy-ism at worst.
>
> </opinion>
>

Absolutely agreed. You can't do any meaningful
work over EDGE anyway, and if you have wifi -
pull out the laptop. And, worse, iphone has no ipv6 :)
--
 nikolai


From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Dec 21 17:18:04 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:18:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712211713480.14465-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:

> On Dec 21, 2007 5:32 AM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
> > And how's this for holiday entertainment :)
> 
> Yes the terminal on the iphone is definetly bangin, i can ssh to any
> remote server and do a regular administration work basically from
> anywhere! I'm still missing nmap though, I need to dig deeper into
> iphone's toolchain. As for real entertainment there is now ScummVM port
> so I can play all my favorite LucasArts and Sierra classic adventure
> games.
> 
> PS. and of course iphone also has frotz to play IF games :)
iphone is b-game as far as remote admin is concerned

current laptop-replacement jesus is nokia n810

800x480 LCD (!!!)
qwerty keyboard (!)
runs linux (+)
open source code, yes, really, you can recompile everything (!!!)
wifi onboard
no wireless, will tether through your phone (-)
API is on top of X, you can toss your X session onto it (!!!)

It is a lil bit bigger than iphone, but still small enough to carry in 
your back pocket for "oh shit" moments. generally, anything you can do on 
laptop you can do on n810.

-alex



From trish at bsdunix.net  Fri Dec 21 17:51:43 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:51:43 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
Message-ID: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>


-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: "Trish Lynch" <trish at bsdunix.net>

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:07:25 
To:"michael" <lists at genoverly.net>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD


I disagree - since having an ssh client on my blackberry 3.5 years ago, I can count numerous times where having it has made the difference in both my job and my social life.

I can see the same for the iphone, except IMO its not iphone specific. Any smartphone should have this capability. And to tether in case that small screen IS a pain in the arse.

-T
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: michael <lists at genoverly.net>

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:16:52 
To:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD


On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:01:20 +0100
"Andy Kosela" <andy.kosela at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 21, 2007 5:32 AM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
> > And how's this for holiday entertainment :)

entertainment.. yes! cool shot, nikolai.

> .. i can ssh to any remote server and do a regular administration
> work basically from anywhere!

<opinion>

heh.. 'regular'?   Yes, there is a prompt.

You must have very fast and very skinny fingers! Otherwise it is one
key at time with a stylus.  Think about it, what emergency absolutely
needs to be answered from a busy street corner; on a tiny screen that
is only 40 chars wide and 20 lines tall?

Stuck in the mens room?  You can wipe faster than you type.
Stuck in a meeting?  choose: participate in the meeting or leave.
Stuck at mom's house for the holidays?  where's your laptop?
Stuck in a cab in traffic?  Yea, lets diagnose that core dump at 40x20.
Stuck on 4 hour train ride? Is this daily?  Then get evdo.
Stuck out in the desert?  umm.. you have cell coverage?
Stuck up on Everest?  wait.. who *are* you?
Stuck [insert weird edge case here]?  phew, I bet you are glad you spent
all that money on a mobile phone for this one-chance-in-a-million
crisis!  It could be hours before I get a chance to diagnose and fix
this mission critical emergency at a regular machine!

Face it, there are not too many things that need to be done (or
actually *can* be done easily) that can not wait until you get to a
readable screen, a usable keyboard, and a decent connection.

This is an entertaining novelty, at best.. iphone-fan-boy-ism at worst.

</opinion>


--

michael
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From dan at langille.org  Fri Dec 21 19:42:07 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:42:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <476C5D5F.3010907@langille.org>

> Face it, there are not too many things that need to be done (or
> actually *can* be done easily) that can not wait until you get to a
> readable screen, a usable keyboard, and a decent connection.

One persons toy is anothers tool.  Use what you want.  There is no one 
answer.

-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/
PGCon  - The PostgreSQL Conference:    http://www.pgcon.org/


From nikolai at fetissov.org  Fri Dec 21 19:58:36 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:58:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065
	235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

> I disagree - since having an ssh client on my blackberry 3.5 years ago, I
> can count numerous times where having it has made the difference in both
> my job and my social life.
>
> I can see the same for the iphone, except IMO its not iphone specific. Any
> smartphone should have this capability. And to tether in case that small
> screen IS a pain in the arse.
>

One thing I forgot to mention is that iphone keyboard
is surprisingly usable. I never used a handheld for exactly
this reason - have enough trouble fat-fingering regular
keyboard. But this pop-out letter feature works for me.
Even started using sms :)
--
 Nikolai


From carton at Ivy.NET  Fri Dec 21 21:02:08 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:02:08 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	(nikolai's message of "Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:58:36 -0500 (EST)")
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "n" == nikolai  <nikolai at fetissov.org> writes:

     n> Even started using sms :)

oh, yeah great, SMS.

AFAICT most of this new wave of tools is geek-proof, in that it's so
locked down you won't get more out of the device than any teenage girl
or retired model train hobbyist.  These two classes of people also
talk about the virtues and failings of their electronic tools on their
little mailing lists and AOL chat rooms, too.  What's so sad for me is
seeing us talk about the tools in exactly the same way they do.  

We've been successfully mainstreamed.  We're part of the herd.  When I
was in college, I taught my girlfriend to use ytalk, and she loved it.
Now, I'm being asked by the guy that used to run a BBS with me, please
use (unencrypted, logged) AIM because jabber and irc don't work
conveniently from his Sidekick.  Our study/talent/specialty counts for
nothing.  and it never will---go ahead, make something new, and you'll
be frozen out.  Apple and T-Mobile already own everyone's fingers.  If
you want to actually use the snazzy new app or protocol you designed,
go back to school and get an MBA, because you're not going to get it
onto anyone's thumbs without some serious business negotiation.

And we trade it away so motherfucking cheaply.  That's what disgusts
me the most---these sniveling apologies.
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From trish at bsdunix.net  Fri Dec 21 21:20:56 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:20:56 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com><oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Jesus, Miles,

Who pissed in your cheerios? Every time I've seen you post about something that is opinion based - you use offensive, bitter, nasty language and insult others for their success with somethinjg, or their use of a different tool than you.

You would almost think that you're just jealous of "Apple" or "T-Mobile"'s success - did you fail at something? Fail really bad? And blaming it on the success stories? Are you one of those that wants everything regulated to be "fair" - because the world owes you something because youu've been beaten by it every time?

Well - its getting old. Grow up Miles, take your lumps. Some people actually DO get use out of our tools - the ones you see as toys - and get more use than most power users - because we can write a J2ME app that runs on our Blackberries or iPhones or Treos. Or are you just jealous because you don't have one?

Either way, you come off as a child throwing a temper tantrum, not someone with an intelligent argument. Why not have solid intelligent and useful facts to back up your aguments, not rants that make you sound like you need counseling.

-Siobhan Patricia Lynch
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net>

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:02:08 
To:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD


>>>>> "n" == nikolai  <nikolai at fetissov.org> writes:

     n> Even started using sms :)

oh, yeah great, SMS.

AFAICT most of this new wave of tools is geek-proof, in that it's so
locked down you won't get more out of the device than any teenage girl
or retired model train hobbyist.  These two classes of people also
talk about the virtues and failings of their electronic tools on their
little mailing lists and AOL chat rooms, too.  What's so sad for me is
seeing us talk about the tools in exactly the same way they do.

We've been successfully mainstreamed.  We're part of the herd.  When I
was in college, I taught my girlfriend to use ytalk, and she loved it.
Now, I'm being asked by the guy that used to run a BBS with me, please
use (unencrypted, logged) AIM because jabber and irc don't work
conveniently from his Sidekick.  Our study/talent/specialty counts for
nothing.  and it never will---go ahead, make something new, and you'll
be frozen out.  Apple and T-Mobile already own everyone's fingers.  If
you want to actually use the snazzy new app or protocol you designed,
go back to school and get an MBA, because you're not going to get it
onto anyone's thumbs without some serious business negotiation.

And we trade it away so motherfucking cheaply.  That's what disgusts
me the most---these sniveling apologies.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk


From carton at Ivy.NET  Fri Dec 21 22:31:25 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:31:25 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	(=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?='s message of "Sat,
	22 Dec 2007 02:20:56 +0000")
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "tl" == =?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=  <utf-8> writes:

    tl> you use offensive, bitter, nasty language

well yeah. I'm offended, bitter and nasty.  Why?  because this list
for me is mostly about use of BSD, a free software platform, and I see
software freedom disappearing, and along with it my opportunity to use
the platform- and application-level tools that go along with BSD (like
ytalk).

    tl> and insult others for their success with somethinjg,

T-Mobile and Apple and RIM all succeeded big-time with closed devices.
You're right that I'm not happy that they succeeded so well, because
it's been to the exclusion of tools more in the spirit of BSD, like
jabber, ytalk, and ipsec-tools racoon.  However, T-Mobile/Danger, RIM,
and Apple are not people.  I don't think you need to defend
corporations from being ``insulted.''  I don't think they even qualify
as ``others.''

Can we see a difference between Miles Nordin and T-Mobile?

My complaint is that Miles can't goof around with free, open tools as
well as he used to because RIM, T-Mobile and Apple have lured his
friends (who also like to goof around with free, open tools) onto
closed platforms, and thus maybe Miles and said friends would benefit
from some introspection.  Said friends haven't ``succeeded'', only
Apple, RIM, and T-Mobile.

    tl> use of a different tool than you.

I'm pointing out the other tools are un-BSDish.  That's their relevant
characteristic, and it's on topic, while you make it sound like open
tools are some whimsical personal choice of mine.  They're not, not on
this list.

    tl> we can write a J2ME app that runs on our Blackberries or
    tl> iPhones or Treos.

You can't do that, though, as I understand it.  That'd be great.  I'd
be excited and happy about that.  But I don't think it's
possible---your app has to be blessed by RIM or Apple/Cingular.  Maybe
it is possible with Treo, if you'll write to WinCE?  but even there
the carrier will reserve all the ``push'' features for themselves, the
ones you need to make anything cool like ringing email, instant
messaging that actually works, presence with geolocation, u.s.w.

I do have experience with this---I bought a Nextel phone with J2ME in
it years ago when they were really fancy and expensive.  I didn't
understand from their pre-sales tech support they'd locked the phone
down so severely you cold only get apps onto it using a ``Developer's
Cable'' and a secret code tied to your IMEI which you had to request
from them.  You cannot share your own app with your friends.  Your
friend has to request his own secret code and buy his own developer's
cable, and install the whole IDE on his PeeCee.  Meanwhile you can
download as many blessed J2ME apps as you want over-the-air.  If
developer codes start flying off the shelves too quickly, they can
just alter the terms of the deal.  The platform was not open, as far
as the 700MHz rules go.  It was also annoying my $55/mo unlimited data
didn't cover use of data from J2ME apps---you had to pay another
$40/mo for that, as a separate service, so the network wasn't open
either.  And I think it is still behind a NAT that kills connections
quickly, so only carrier-proxied apps can use ``push.''  After
untangling this mess I resolved to keep out of it until someone else
reported success by writing some app that a bunch of people installed
on unhacked phones.

In any case, I'd be interested in your experience targeting J2ME apps
to these platforms, if you have any.  We weren't discussing writing
your own apps before you flamed me, though.  We were just discussing
the out-of-the-box closed devices (and one Alex mentioned that sounded
open).

    tl> Are you one of those that wants everything regulated to be
    tl> "fair"

sounds kind of political and Ayn Rand-y.  I think I'd better stick to
specifics, because abstract politics will turn into an OT flamewar.
FWIW, yes, I'm happy about the 700MHz auctioning rules, and bet it'll
make all the difference for Linux or BSD-based open phones.

    tl> did you fail at something? Fail really bad?

    tl> the world owes you something 

    tl> because youu've been beaten by it every time?

    tl> Grow up Miles,

    tl> Either way, you come off as a child throwing a temper tantrum,
    tl> not someone with an intelligent argument.

    tl> rants that make you sound like you need counseling.

There's definitely something weird going on, because I'm more than
once getting what I regard as over-the-top grossly inappropriate
flames from people, _who themselves accuse me of being off-topic_.
It's so extreme I don't feel like I have to respond, but still...

I guess I'm happy to be making people a little enthusiastic, but
obviously I'd rather it weren't in exactly this way.  I really need to
be able to state an unpopular, on-topic view without being attacked as
above, though.  What the hell was that?  At absolute worst, I
(_without_ even calling you out personally!) insulted your _choice of
celfone_.  This is crazy retaliation, so knock-it-off-plz, sorry did
not mean to insult you personally so much as suggest we might resist
Apple, T-Mobile, RIM a little better, no apology necessary.
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From dan at langille.org  Fri Dec 21 22:41:04 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:41:04 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <476C8750.8030205@langille.org>

Miles Nordin > I guess I'm happy to be making people a little 
enthusiastic, but
> obviously I'd rather it weren't in exactly this way.  I really need to
> be able to state an unpopular, on-topic view without being attacked as
> above, though.  What the hell was that?  At absolute worst, I
> (_without_ even calling you out personally!) insulted your _choice of
> celfone_.  This is crazy retaliation, so knock-it-off-plz, sorry did
> not mean to insult you personally so much as suggest we might resist
> Apple, T-Mobile, RIM a little better, no apology necessary.

It's not what you said.

It's how it was said.

-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/
PGCon  - The PostgreSQL Conference:    http://www.pgcon.org/


From tekronis at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 22:42:43 2007
From: tekronis at gmail.com (H. G.)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:42:43 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk]  Fw: Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <60131f920712211942w35f98b70nf9fe3237eceb015d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<60131f920712211942w35f98b70nf9fe3237eceb015d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60131f920712211942h142a336aj9942b838bf8e15b0@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/21/07, Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "n" == nikolai  <nikolai at fetissov.org> writes:
>
>      n> Even started using sms :)
>
> oh, yeah great, SMS.
>
> AFAICT most of this new wave of tools is geek-proof, in that it's so
> locked down you won't get more out of the device than any teenage girl
> or retired model train hobbyist.  These two classes of people also
> talk about the virtues and failings of their electronic tools on their
> little mailing lists and AOL chat rooms, too.  What's so sad for me is
> seeing us talk about the tools in exactly the same way they do.


Truth.

We've been successfully mainstreamed.  We're part of the herd.  When I
> was in college, I taught my girlfriend to use ytalk, and she loved it.
> Now, I'm being asked by the guy that used to run a BBS with me, please
> use (unencrypted, logged) AIM because jabber and irc don't work
> conveniently from his Sidekick.  Our study/talent/specialty counts for
> nothing.  and it never will---go ahead, make something new, and you'll
> be frozen out.  Apple and T-Mobile already own everyone's fingers.  If
> you want to actually use the snazzy new app or protocol you designed,
> go back to school and get an MBA, because you're not going to get it
> onto anyone's thumbs without some serious business negotiation.


Even more truth.

And we trade it away so motherfucking cheaply.  That's what disgusts
> me the most---these sniveling apologies.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
I have no idea why this guy is being flamed.
Every single word he's said here so far has been nothing but true.
(Not looking to fan the flames, but just wanted to say that.)
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From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Dec 21 22:54:49 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:54:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <476C8750.8030205@langille.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212251590.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, Dan Langille wrote:

> Miles Nordin > I guess I'm happy to be making people a little 
> enthusiastic, but
> > obviously I'd rather it weren't in exactly this way.  I really need to
> > be able to state an unpopular, on-topic view without being attacked as
> > above, though.  What the hell was that?  At absolute worst, I
> > (_without_ even calling you out personally!) insulted your _choice of
> > celfone_.  This is crazy retaliation, so knock-it-off-plz, sorry did
> > not mean to insult you personally so much as suggest we might resist
> > Apple, T-Mobile, RIM a little better, no apology necessary.
> 
> It's not what you said.
> 
> It's how it was said.
Continued emphasis on political correctness vs technical correctness on
this list is beginning of the end. It is easy to be polite - millions of
people are. It is hard to know what you are talking about - very few do, 
and so few of them are willing to bother talking to mere mortals.

Miles was dropping science. It may be unpopular. It doesn't make it any
less correct (or at least deserving of consideration without whining).

-alex




From joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com  Fri Dec 21 23:14:45 2007
From: joshmccormack at travelersdiary.com (Josh McCormack)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:14:45 -0600
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <e22ad7830712212014v3ed16e4chca670b7d5dd6bc44@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 21, 2007 9:31 PM, Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net> wrote:
> >>>>> "tl" == =?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=  <utf-8> writes:
<snip>
> My complaint is that Miles can't goof around with free, open tools as
> well as he used to because RIM, T-Mobile and Apple have lured his
> friends (who also like to goof around with free, open tools) onto
> closed platforms, and thus maybe Miles and said friends would benefit
> from some introspection.  Said friends haven't ``succeeded'', only
> Apple, RIM, and T-Mobile.

Thought I'd share something. I use a Blackberry 8800, which I love
dearly. I bought the IM program IM+, with which I can connect to Yahoo
IM, AIM, MSN, GTalk and others I don't even use. Really cool. I also
yesterday installed Ubuntu to try it out and in a very brief time got
over the air sync'ing of my contacts working via syncevolution and
funambol, which are free. In my desire to get off of Windows I was all
set to set up a "Windows appliance" - a Windows machine just for
special purposes like getting data on and off my Blackberry.

I was seduced into trying Ubuntu for the ease of getting going fast
and with minimal skills required, but it's hiccuping a bit here and
there, I think because I'm on a dual AMD64 and that's just not it's
target, and Linux distros in general seem to fly fairly loose with
their releases. Just thought I'd share. :)

Josh


From trish at bsdunix.net  Fri Dec 21 23:14:53 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 04:14:53 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <476C8750.8030205@langille.org>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET><476C8750.8030205@langille.org>
Message-ID: <505677006-1198296903-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1641662927-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Thanks Dan.


 Yes. That's entirely the problem, there aere better ways to say things than tell people they are stupid for owning a piece of technology they get some use out of, and yes, I am all for people's business success, capitalism, and I have no issues with platforms that are closed and have tools and appllications that protect their bottom line, profits and intellectual property rights. Hell the BSD way is to encourage intellectual property and profits. You (in general)  want socialism and communism, try Linux and HURD.

Honestly - yes I am a Libertarian and Objectivist, but rants liike yours (Miles) come out to people who aren't staunch capitalists like I am as if you're a crazy socialist zealot. Short of that it comes off like a child who didn't get what they wanted and is biitter about it.

Now the J2ME thing - I have no issues with RIM and writing my own J2ME apps and running them there. Admittedly they are small things like making queries to websites and reporting back specific information- but RIM and AT&T have no bar to running third party or "no-party" apps (ie. It runs unsigned J2ME apps, and even ones that are open source like "LJ2ME", a livejournal client. And even midpssh. So - RIM is pretty decent.

But seriously - if they had something useful that worked and was the right tool for the job I'd use it - patented, closed, expensive and useful. - and smartphones for me have been useful, and not as closed as you think (at least the Palm and the Blackberries - the Sidekick and other types I except are less useful to me because of the lack of ab ility to run midlets and j2me apps.)

But yelling at the world and calling them stupid and saying things about "sniveling apologies" and that "Apple and T-Mobile own everyone's fingers" is just sour apples and nastiness, and its not the first time Miles has ranted like this, and implied that everyone else is stupid for disagreeing.

-Trish
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Langille <dan at langille.org>

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:41:04 
To:Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net>
Cc:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD


Miles Nordin > I guess I'm happy to be making people a little
enthusiastic, but
> obviously I'd rather it weren't in exactly this way.  I really need to
> be able to state an unpopular, on-topic view without being attacked as
> above, though.  What the hell was that?  At absolute worst, I
> (_without_ even calling you out personally!) insulted your _choice of
> celfone_.  This is crazy retaliation, so knock-it-off-plz, sorry did
> not mean to insult you personally so much as suggest we might resist
> Apple, T-Mobile, RIM a little better, no apology necessary.

It's not what you said.

It's how it was said.

--
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/
PGCon  - The PostgreSQL Conference:    http://www.pgcon.org/
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From trish at bsdunix.net  Fri Dec 21 23:26:02 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 04:26:02 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212251590.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <476C8750.8030205@langille.org><Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212251590.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <398588777-1198297572-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-557028127-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Its not technical correctness - its an *opinion* - my opinion about the usefulness of my blackberry with midpssh and SMS and its jabber client, and other useful things for *my* life - is not a technical issue, nor is it a "political correctness" issue.

Saying things without insulting words regarding people's choice of tools is not a technical argument - giving a point by point technical reason why *some* things cannot be done over EDGE as opposed to say - WiFi - that's technical - but plain nastiness and sour grapes has nothing to do with Politica Correctness - it has to do with simple manners.

-Siobhan Patricia Lynch

-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com>

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:54:49 
To:Dan Langille <dan at langille.org>
Cc:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD


On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, Dan Langille wrote:

> Miles Nordin > I guess I'm happy to be making people a little
> enthusiastic, but
> > obviously I'd rather it weren't in exactly this way.  I really need to
> > be able to state an unpopular, on-topic view without being attacked as
> > above, though.  What the hell was that?  At absolute worst, I
> > (_without_ even calling you out personally!) insulted your _choice of
> > celfone_.  This is crazy retaliation, so knock-it-off-plz, sorry did
> > not mean to insult you personally so much as suggest we might resist
> > Apple, T-Mobile, RIM a little better, no apology necessary.
>
> It's not what you said.
>
> It's how it was said.
Continued emphasis on political correctness vs technical correctness on
this list is beginning of the end. It is easy to be polite - millions of
people are. It is hard to know what you are talking about - very few do,
and so few of them are willing to bother talking to mere mortals.

Miles was dropping science. It may be unpopular. It doesn't make it any
less correct (or at least deserving of consideration without whining).

-alex


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From nikolai at fetissov.org  Fri Dec 21 23:29:03 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:29:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
Message-ID: <1166.67.86.49.123.1198297743.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

>      n> Even started using sms :)
>
> oh, yeah great, SMS.
>

Oh, dude, that was a joke ...

Yes, I love how Apple hardware looks.
No, I didn't buy the phone, that was a gift.
Yes, I hate Apple/AT&A for being so greedy and closed.
Yes, I love the iphone because it has an accelerometer
so I can use it as a level for my home construction.

Just so you know there's already an open source
community porting Unix tools and writing new stuff
for this closed platform. There's already openssh,
apache, perl, python, ruby, tcl, etc. that you can
just install and run.

And just to cheer you up, somebody will probably
manage to boot NetBSD on iphone before Christmas :)

--
 Nikolai



From alex at pilosoft.com  Fri Dec 21 23:30:06 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:30:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <398588777-1198297572-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-557028127-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212327500.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, [utf-8] Trish Lynch wrote:

> Its not technical correctness - its an *opinion* - my opinion about the
> usefulness of my blackberry with midpssh and SMS and its jabber client,
> and other useful things for *my* life - is not a technical issue, nor is
> it a "political correctness" issue.
> 
> Saying things without insulting words regarding people's choice of tools
> is not a technical argument - giving a point by point technical reason
> why *some* things cannot be done over EDGE as opposed to say - WiFi -
> that's technical - but plain nastiness and sour grapes has nothing to do
> with Politica Correctness - it has to do with simple manners.
I must've missed the day when Miss Manners started coordinating the list. 

Besides, wouldn't proper netiquette be to complain to the author
privately?

love,

-alex



From trish at bsdunix.net  Fri Dec 21 23:43:35 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 04:43:35 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212327500.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <398588777-1198297572-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-557028127-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212327500.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <1856179771-1198298626-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1025900975-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Its always been an understanding that rants that essentially were just plain nasty and offensive (as Miles was, calling out people who used current technology as no better than high school girls and toy train collectors - even if they were clueful enough to use it in ways they found inifintely useful to better their own lives), were frowned upon here.

As far as replying to the original author - ok - maybe - but the offense was posted to the list - so the response shoulld generally be posted to the same place - especially since IMO - my opinion happened to be relative to the topic.

Once upon a time - the BSD community was a mostly polite, if curmudgeonly group of people with advanced technical knowledge who didn't mind capitalism, closed intellectual property (in fact tried to work within those strictures - I remeber when the Aeronet cards were used at USENIX and I arranged for Aeronet to give specs to Bill Paul - within the system), or people making some cash. Opinions were respected and people who came across as you and Miles to were looked upon normally as total and complete jerks - and only got any respect if they had advanced technical knowledge (like Theo. D.) - and still people didn't *like* them or like working with them.

It seems as it gets "cooler" to run a BSD - the community suurrounding it has become not much better than the linux kiddies. 

Maybe its *me* who wants the good old days back, not Miles. Or maybe my point is that times change and everyone misses what they miss - its how you state it that matters, and Miles came off as a spoiled brat - rather than someone with a relevant technical point (and I still can't find one in that post)

-Trish
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com>

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:30:06 
To:Trish Lynch <trish at bsdunix.net>
Cc:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD


On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, [utf-8] Trish Lynch wrote:

> Its not technical correctness - its an *opinion* - my opinion about the
> usefulness of my blackberry with midpssh and SMS and its jabber client,
> and other useful things for *my* life - is not a technical issue, nor is
> it a "political correctness" issue.
>
> Saying things without insulting words regarding people's choice of tools
> is not a technical argument - giving a point by point technical reason
> why *some* things cannot be done over EDGE as opposed to say - WiFi -
> that's technical - but plain nastiness and sour grapes has nothing to do
> with Politica Correctness - it has to do with simple manners.
I must've missed the day when Miss Manners started coordinating the list.

Besides, wouldn't proper netiquette be to complain to the author
privately?

love,

-alex

From alex at pilosoft.com  Sat Dec 22 00:03:41 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:03:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <1856179771-1198298626-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1025900975-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212355120.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, [utf-8] Trish Lynch wrote:

> Its always been an understanding that rants that essentially were just
> plain nasty and offensive (as Miles was, calling out people who used
> current technology as no better than high school girls and toy train
> collectors - even if they were clueful enough to use it in ways they
> found inifintely useful to better their own lives), were frowned upon
> here.
I've seen far worse. 

To quote Fido Policy: You should not be excessively annoying, but you also 
should not be easily annoyed. 

perhaps you misread his comment "AFAICT most of this new wave of tools is
geek-proof, in that it's so locked down you won't get more out of the
device than any teenage girl or retired model train hobbyist.". I fail to 
see how you could read it by calling *people* worse than highschool girls.

> As far as replying to the original author - ok - maybe - but the offense
> was posted to the list - so the response shoulld generally be posted to
> the same place - especially since IMO - my opinion happened to be
> relative to the topic.
> 
> Once upon a time - the BSD community was a mostly polite, if
> curmudgeonly group of people with advanced technical knowledge who
> didn't mind capitalism, closed intellectual property (in fact tried to
> work within those strictures - I remeber when the Aeronet cards were
> used at USENIX and I arranged for Aeronet to give specs to Bill Paul -
> within the system), or people making some cash. Opinions were respected
> and people who came across as you and Miles to were looked upon normally
> as total and complete jerks - and only got any respect if they had
> advanced technical knowledge (like Theo. D.) - and still people didn't
> *like* them or like working with them.
Funny you brought up Theo. I think his case pretty much proves my point.  
Theo can be rude (and often is, to people who deserve it, and sometimes to
those who don't). He was thrown out of netbsd for being rude. netbsd is
currently far more dead than openbsd is. I think in retrospect, everyone
realizes that netbsdcoreteam was wrong and Theo was right.

It is more preferably to be both correct and polite, but if you have to 
choose, I'm going to choose to hang out with guys who know what they are 
doing. Otherwise, I'd be on nylug.

> It seems as it gets "cooler" to run a BSD - the community suurrounding
> it has become not much better than the linux kiddies.
I think otherwise.

Linux always catered to everyone. *bsd catered to cluebies, and generally 
was not all that welcoming of outsiders who can't prove they deserve to 
belong. 

> Maybe its *me* who wants the good old days back, not Miles. Or maybe my
> point is that times change and everyone misses what they miss - its how
> you state it that matters, and Miles came off as a spoiled brat - rather
> than someone with a relevant technical point (and I still can't find one
> in that post)
See above for comments about good old days. 








From trish at bsdunix.net  Sat Dec 22 00:16:57 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 05:16:57 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212355120.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
References: <1856179771-1198298626-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1025900975-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212355120.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
Message-ID: <688223356-1198300627-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-196795978-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

What I've realized is now that I've been taken in by both trolls - its time to actually walk away and spend time with people who really matter.

I think I'd prefer to be with people with *both* clue *and* manners. There are plenty of them out there that I don't need to associate with people like you and Miles who see no reason to be polite, or state things in such a way you don't come off as the technical equivalent of an Islamic Extremist.

I hope your views serve you well, this will be the last thing I say on it - but someday you'll learn that being a malcontent really just means just tha( - you aren't happy. It certainly comes off that way, and now that I've fed into the need for unhappy people to make others unhappy - I'll go off in the secure knowledge that not only have I earned the respect and place in this community I've had for 11 years, but that I didn't need to act like a spolied brat or malcontent to do it. While Theo may have been *partly* right - it took a lot longer for people to come around to his way of thinking than if he had been *both* correct *and* q gentleman.

I have no issues being Miss Manners - as a woman in this industry - I think its not a bad thing to be known as.

Siobhan Patricia Lynch
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Pilosov <alex at pilosoft.com>

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:03:41 
To:Trish Lynch <trish at bsdunix.net>
Cc:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD


On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, [utf-8] Trish Lynch wrote:

> Its always been an understanding that rants that essentially were just
> plain nasty and offensive (as Miles was, calling out people who used
> current technology as no better than high school girls and toy train
> collectors - even if they were clueful enough to use it in ways they
> found inifintely useful to better their own lives), were frowned upon
> here.
I've seen far worse.

To quote Fido Policy: You should not be excessively annoying, but you also
should not be easily annoyed.

perhaps you misread his comment "AFAICT most of this new wave of tools is
geek-proof, in that it's so locked down you won't get more out of the
device than any teenage girl or retired model train hobbyist.". I fail to
see how you could read it by calling *people* worse than highschool girls.

> As far as replying to the original author - ok - maybe - but the offense
> was posted to the list - so the response shoulld generally be posted to
> the same place - especially since IMO - my opinion happened to be
> relative to the topic.
>
> Once upon a time - the BSD community was a mostly polite, if
> curmudgeonly group of people with advanced technical knowledge who
> didn't mind capitalism, closed intellectual property (in fact tried to
> work within those strictures - I remeber when the Aeronet cards were
> used at USENIX and I arranged for Aeronet to give specs to Bill Paul -
> within the system), or people making some cash. Opinions were respected
> and people who came across as you and Miles to were looked upon normally
> as total and complete jerks - and only got any respect if they had
> advanced technical knowledge (like Theo. D.) - and still people didn't
> *like* them or like working with them.
Funny you brought up Theo. I think his case pretty much proves my point.
Theo can be rude (and often is, to people who deserve it, and sometimes to
those who don't). He was thrown out of netbsd for being rude. netbsd is
currently far more dead than openbsd is. I think in retrospect, everyone
realizes that netbsdcoreteam was wrong and Theo was right.

It is more preferably to be both correct and polite, but if you have to
choose, I'm going to choose to hang out with guys who know what they are
doing. Otherwise, I'd be on nylug.

> It seems as it gets "cooler" to run a BSD - the community suurrounding
> it has become not much better than the linux kiddies.
I think otherwise.

Linux always catered to everyone. *bsd catered to cluebies, and generally
was not all that welcoming of outsiders who can't prove they deserve to
belong.

> Maybe its *me* who wants the good old days back, not Miles. Or maybe my
> point is that times change and everyone misses what they miss - its how
> you state it that matters, and Miles came off as a spoiled brat - rather
> than someone with a relevant technical point (and I still can't find one
> in that post)
See above for comments about good old days.






From yusuke at cs.nyu.edu  Sat Dec 22 00:48:16 2007
From: yusuke at cs.nyu.edu (Yusuke Shinyama)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:48:16 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20071222054816.3595.11341.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>

Hi Miles,

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:31:25 -0500, Miles Nordin <carton at Ivy.NET> wrote:
(snip)
> 
> I'm pointing out the other tools are un-BSDish.  That's their relevant
> characteristic, and it's on topic, while you make it sound like open
> tools are some whimsical personal choice of mine.  They're not, not on
> this list.

I certainly don't wanna pour more oil onto the flame, but I'm
curious about what do you mean by "BSDish" in this context, and
how it's different from, say, "Unixy"?  I'm guessing you mean
the openness, but not every Unix is so open as *BSD, and
Linux has this kind of openness too.

I'd like to think the heart of the unixy principle is KISS,
and I really love this maxim (which I think is applicable to
all sorts of engineering), but it does not necessarily
coincide with the openness (although it generally does),
and this principle does not always characterize the current
development of *bsd. (Well, in fact, it seems to me that 
almost every software project is going against this!)

Just attempting to cheer up an interesting discussion...

Yusuke


From trish at bsdunix.net  Sat Dec 22 07:54:58 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (=?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:54:58 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Openness: was  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <20071222054816.3595.11341.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
References: <oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET><oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET><41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com><211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><20071222054816.3595.11341.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <1705464640-1198328108-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-989928779-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Exactly - BSD in and of itself is a capitalist license - its one of the reasons I crawled onboard. It didn't *require* one to release code that made you unique, however it did allow things that were re-usable amongst a large group of people to be shared as long as I was not giving away something I saw asa valuable to myself and harmful to my bottom line to share. Things that were duplicated elsehwere, however were done much better with more peer review and more organization.

The nice thing about the BSD-style licensing is that the parts that made us unique we could keep in-house, develop ourselves and not have to give it to every hack out there to play with. Several companies too advantage of this model : Whistle (ultimately bought by IBM), Network Appliance, and F5 Networks (BigIP), Coyote Point (Equalizer), and others.

In the BSD world I am not required to be open, I don't have to share it with everyone, I *can* be selfish, I can make money - and that's exactly what Apple did. There is no better example of the BSD model at work than Apple's success with its later Macs and the later iPod and iPhone. The market penetration of BSD code is huge - but the things that make the it unique are not released. Nor should they be.

It seems like people like Miles have been spoiled by the Linux headspace of "everything must be free" - while I prefer "live free or die" - where freedom also includes the option to not have to give away things that I put work into and may make me money.

You want things for free - become a GNU-Linux proponent - most people on a BSD list are not going to listen to someone rant about one of the major things that make *BSD better than Linux. If you want that - go to NYLUG - just because of the general population of this list is tending towards clue - does not mean that its your idea of clue or that we're going to agree that closed tools that are useful are evil. The BSD license in and of itself teaches us entirely different.


-Trish
-- 
Trish Lynch
M: 646-401-1405
H: 201-378-0434  

-----Original Message-----
From: Yusuke Shinyama <yusuke at cs.nyu.edu>

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:48:16 
To:Miles Nordin <carton at ivy.net>
Cc:talk at lists.nycbug.org
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Fw: Extreme mobile BSD


Hi Miles,

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:31:25 -0500, Miles Nordin <carton at Ivy.NET> wrote:
(snip)
>
> I'm pointing out the other tools are un-BSDish.  That's their relevant
> characteristic, and it's on topic, while you make it sound like open
> tools are some whimsical personal choice of mine.  They're not, not on
> this list.

I certainly don't wanna pour more oil onto the flame, but I'm
curious about what do you mean by "BSDish" in this context, and
how it's different from, say, "Unixy"?  I'm guessing you mean
the openness, but not every Unix is so open as *BSD, and
Linux has this kind of openness too.

I'd like to think the heart of the unixy principle is KISS,
and I really love this maxim (which I think is applicable to
all sorts of engineering), but it does not necessarily
coincide with the openness (although it generally does),
and this principle does not always characterize the current
development of *bsd. (Well, in fact, it seems to me that
almost every software project is going against this!)

Just attempting to cheer up an interesting discussion...

Yusuke
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nycbug.org
http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From dan at langille.org  Sat Dec 22 08:14:15 2007
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:14:15 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <688223356-1198300627-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-196795978-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1856179771-1198298626-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1025900975-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><Pine.LNX.4.44.0712212355120.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>
	<688223356-1198300627-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-196795978-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <476D0DA7.1040209@langille.org>

Trish Lynch wrote:

> What I've realized is now that I've been taken in by both trolls - its time to actually walk away and spend time with people who really matter.

Agreed.  Let it die.


-- 
Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/
PGCon  - The PostgreSQL Conference:    http://www.pgcon.org/


From alex at pilosoft.com  Sat Dec 22 08:33:15 2007
From: alex at pilosoft.com (Alex Pilosov)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:33:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Openness: was  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <1705464640-1198328108-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-989928779-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0712220812130.17612-100000@bawx.pilosoft.com>

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, [utf-8] Trish Lynch wrote:

> In the BSD world I am not required to be open, I don't have to share it
> with everyone, I *can* be selfish, I can make money - and that's exactly
> what Apple did. There is no better example of the BSD model at work than
> Apple's success with its later Macs and the later iPod and iPhone. The
> market penetration of BSD code is huge - but the things that make the it
> unique are not released. Nor should they be.
Right, and Miles' point is that it is of no benefit to us as community
that BSD is so successful in iPod/iPhone. It is as if bragging BSD was
used in nuclear weapons: at best, it doesn't matter, at worst, it is
giving aid to enemies of hackerdom.

> It seems like people like Miles have been spoiled by the Linux headspace
> of "everything must be free" - while I prefer "live free or die" - where
> freedom also includes the option to not have to give away things that I
> put work into and may make me money.
It isn't about free as a beer, it is about free as in speech. And yes, I
think linux kids got it more right. 

Arguing about it is pointless. History is the only that will judge us.

> You want things for free - become a GNU-Linux proponent - most people on
> a BSD list are not going to listen to someone rant about one of the
> major things that make *BSD better than Linux. If you want that - go to
> NYLUG - just because of the general population of this list is tending
> towards clue - does not mean that its your idea of clue or that we're
> going to agree that closed tools that are useful are evil. The BSD
> license in and of itself teaches us entirely different.
a) If you can't handle opposing opinions on what makes Linux better than 
BSD on occasion, sorry, unsubscribe. This isn't a bsd rah-rah list. As an 
adult and a professional, you are expected to handle criticism and learn 
from it.

b) There is such thing as community. Sure, there's no crime in making 
money. However, if apple screws the community that contributed major tools 
that help apple makey money, I don't think apple should get off the hook 
just because they use our software.

c) I want my car to have hood not welded shut. Sorry. 

-alex



From carton at Ivy.NET  Sat Dec 22 14:04:44 2007
From: carton at Ivy.NET (Miles Nordin)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:04:44 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?='s message of "Sat,
	22 Dec 2007 04:14:53 +0000"
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET> <476C8750.8030205@langille.org>
	<505677006-1198296903-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1641662927-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<1166.67.86.49.123.1198297743.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<20071222054816.3595.11341.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <oqsl1uim9f.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>

>>>>> "tl" == =?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=  <utf-8> writes:
>>>>> "n" == nikolai  <nikolai at fetissov.org> writes:
>>>>> "ys" == Yusuke Shinyama <yusuke at cs.nyu.edu> writes:

    tl> Now the J2ME thing - I have no issues with RIM and writing my
    tl> own J2ME apps and running them there.
[...]
    tl> "LJ2ME", a livejournal client. And even midpssh.

Are these apps ``blessed'' by RIM in any way?  What I mean is, can I

 * download the source to LJ2ME, 

 * change it, 

 * and then distribute it to my RIM-using friends in the same
   easy-to-install format as the unmodified LJ2ME that I first
   downloaded?

if so, that fixes my ``won't touch it''-level objection from last time
I dealt with this world.

The only other thing I'd add, is that while I had Nextel, I talked
about this problem with other J2ME-excited friends, and they always
incorrectly told me ``no, you can do that, you can do whatever you
want.''  Then when I started talking about cables, codes, and
developer kits, they glazed over and showed me how to download blessed
apps from Nextel and said ``see?''

But since you've actually built some apps, you probably know where
they didn't.  How do you distribute the ones you've built---is it a
second-class method to the way mainstream apps are distributed?  Can
they be widely-distributed to everyone without RIM's
consent/involvement?

as far as lesser objections, I wonder if you have experience with:

 * do they limit your access to peripherals to prevent bits from
   escaping the phone, like probably intending to prevent you from
   writing a Java version of Slirp?  You can't use bluetooth or irda
   or a serial port or anything else that could connect you to a
   laptop?

   They used to do this.  It was annoying because you couldn't write
   your own Java apps that connect to GPS pods.

 * do they let you use the GPS built into the phone, or are they still
   trying to charge a few cents ``per location fix''?

 * do you have to use their IDE to upload the apps over some special
   cable, or use it to install some proprietary RIM ``header'' onto
   the app file, or can you build them with any working J2ME DK you
   like on your OS of choice and download them over-the-air?

 * what is the Internet connection like?  

   Nextel's connection---the super expensive unlimited use Golden
   Packet Spray plan you were explicitly _allowed_ to use with
   laptops, not even anything where I was ``cheating'' or working
   around some stumbling block---had this NAT that seemed to quietly
   kill connections if it detected packet loss.  so IM was useless
   unless you were standing still.  I started with a cheaper metered
   plan, there was no NAT, and I didn't have this problem.  but the
   packet meter in the phone never matched my bill, and I calculated
   it would cost $1000 to download firefox over the air, so I
   switched.  This difference between the plans was never disclosed or
   discussed, and it took hours on hold and a couple weeks of no
   internet because of their mistakes to switch between ``plans.''  It
   was endlessly frustrating.

   For you, Jabber actually works, and works as well as the bundled IM
   tools they give you?  or are they giving you some brokeass
   Internet, or Internet that can only work well by talking to a
   Sidekick-style proxy server which has to be on their LAN?

   I mean, if they've improved upon the AIM protocol to make some kind
   of RIMAIM, then installed a RIMAIM<->AIM bridge on their network,
   that seems fair _as long as you can install a RIMJABBER<->Jabber
   bridge on the regular Internet._ but, like, in my Nextel example,
   they would probably put their bridge in front of the goofy NAT,
   while your bridge would have to go behind it and thus maybe could
   never work as well.

     n> Even started using sms :)
     c>  oh, yeah great, SMS.
     n> Oh, dude, that was a joke ...

yeah I use it now too, to talk to our housemate Lauren about buying
vegetables.  I type the smiley faces and leave out apostrophes and
everything.  It's like the story of how native american culture was
stolen.  They allow us small reservations, but lure us away with these
attractive traveling people who are full of stories.  The vastness of
this wide brown land is fascinating.

     n> iphone because it has an accelerometer

I heard someone wrote a program to make it sound like it has marbles
inside when you shake it, and they make the number of marbles
correspond to the number of voicemails.  gorsh dowrnit whautll-they
think orv next.

so there.  now someone scream at me for being a hypocrite because I
also talk sometimes like a fourteen year old girl, and a retired model
train hobbyist, and use unfree instant messaging tools, and yet
simultaneously lament these facts.  OMG!  The contradiction!

    ys> don't wanna pour more oil onto the flame, but I'm curious
    ys> about what do you mean by "BSDish" in this context,

maybe the type of openness in the history of BSD: the trading of tapes
among universities, the ability to conveniently fork whole projects
and gather followers around CVS repositories and thus build tight
communities/projects capable of both functioning and preserving a
culture.  And the way small BSD tools are often ported into things
that aren't even Unixy.

The restrictions on the Nextel J2ME phone I had seven years ago, on
the iPhone, and the Sidekick squash these possibilities.  not sure
about RIM yet---we kinda brought in this new phone half way through
the argument.

BSD was also a kit of simple tools adapted to work well for
collaborating with most of the Internet.  This means they must be old
tools that change slowly to avoid excluding people, and run on simple,
well-documented protocols.  They must also be politically transparent,
or at least so simple as to be inoffensive to screaming mailing list
people---the RFC process, and the loose connection between ISC and BSD
(similar, compatible licenses. sometimes sharing colocation space.)

Most of this new IM, socialnetworking, fancyphone stuff is about
herding people from one fad to the next, which means things should
change quickly but be very enticing, and that members of the old fad
need to be excluded or else there's no reason to declare your new
allegiance.  The protocol is your own damn business, no one else's.
And if someone's offended it must be because of the fad's ``success,''
not because he has to be centrally logged and pay twenty cents to ask
what color of squash is preferred tonight, and that no one ever really
chose this situation, just sort of got railroaded into it.

    ys> Linux has this kind of openness too.

i mentioned BSD-openness to point out the discussion was OT, but Linux
openness would probably work just as well.  I would have to substitute
some other story about the history of Linux and squashed possibility.
but since you bring it up...

Linux IMHO did a better job of maintaining a living commitment to
openness rather than just whining about the old days of passing tapes
around.  And they _also_ do a better job of soliciting corporate
contribution---Linux is all over the place, in terms of devices where
it runs and paid full-time developers.

but the quality is just so low.  They failed to preserve the culture
and style that the BSD old-timers kept alive on BSD lists and meetings
and were overrun by these ``whatever works'' or ``right tool for the
job'' pragmatists, Windows refugees, weirdly entitled students.  And
these big projects are so delicate.  Look at how Gnome completely, I
don't know, devoured itself, fell over, imploded?  and how close
Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox teeters toward doing the same thing?  This
failure is more of religion than politics, which means I think it's
more important and more dearly-held by those who follow it.

One of the big points that makes Eben Moglen care about software
freedom, according to his speeches, is education: we need free as in
free-beer development environments and manuals for teaching children
in poorer countries, and free as in freedom code for them to look at
because the best way to become a good programmer is to read lots and
lots of other people's good code.  but I would hate to think of a
student looking at Linux code!  It's awful!  While BSD has always been
used for this, and has always been great for it.

so BSD claimed this different kind of license would make it easier to
get paid jobs for working on BSD than on GPL'ed code.  They also said
they'd get corporate funding for development of the core source tree.
These were their virtues over Linux or GPL zealots.  Strangely, Linux
has done MUCH better at both of these as far as I can see, and I'm not
eager to concede such a thing because I really hate dealing with
Linux.

and Linux guys said we need source code for everything to teach the
next generation of developers, that moving toward this more free world
of greater possibility for every geek everywhere was their primary
mission.  And personally, I find that argument compelling over the
easier-to-get-paid-jobs, corporate-funding argument.  But their source
code is horrible for teaching!  And keeps growing more horrible
through successive additions by poorly- or incompletely-educated
badly-supervised developers teaching each other turning into some Lord
of the Flies mess.

for me it's hilarious to see how the debate starts to pan out when
confronted with reality.  It's like everyone's being mocked.

    tl> Honestly - yes I am a Libertarian and Objectivist, but rants
    tl> liike yours (Miles) come out to people who aren't staunch
    tl> capitalists like I am as if you're a crazy socialist
    tl> zealot. 

In this case, you're not even objecting to my talking about something
technical that hazily involves some of your political ideas---you're
objecting to my particular political ideas themselves.

We could continue this discussion on the libertarian list or the
objectivist list, or the staunch capitalist list, if I were subscribed
to those.  Or we could continue on nettime-bold, if you were
subscribed to that.  However, (surprise!)  we don't seem to subscribe
to the same political lists.  So what if my ideas do come out to you
that way?  I certainly don't care to tell you how you're coming across
to me. :) This isn't the place for you to ``correct'' my politics (or
me yours!).  

I do have some political opinions, but don't think I should have to
put up with being baited to talk about them where it's OT by someone
calling me a child repeatedly.  Please, knock it off!  I offer once
again that, for nycbug-l, our politics ought to be framed into some
topical technical issue.  At least then we can argue about it in a way
that's not obnoxious for everyone else.


-- 
READ CAREFULLY. By reading this fortune, you agree, on behalf of your employer,
to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all
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From andy.kosela at gmail.com  Sat Dec 22 14:08:02 2007
From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 20:08:02 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <32594.204.153.88.2.1198271753.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
	<32594.204.153.88.2.1198271753.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80712221108k31541979gcb007360cada1d21@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 21, 2007 10:15 PM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
>
> Absolutely agreed. You can't do any meaningful
> work over EDGE anyway, and if you have wifi -
> pull out the laptop. And, worse, iphone has no ipv6 :)

Pardon me sir, but how much bandwidth do you need to maintain a
terminal ssh session?
Do you REALLY need more than vt100 9600 baud? Think about it...

--
Andy Kosela
Protect Ya Neck Records /  Wu-Tang Management
www.protect-ya-neck.com


From trish at bsdunix.net  Sat Dec 22 15:41:09 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (Trish Lynch)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:41:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Fw:  Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <oqsl1uim9f.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
References: <498641817-1198277512-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2002065235-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<41243.67.86.49.123.1198285116.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<oq7ij7jxlr.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
	<211878839-1198290066-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-283092042-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<oq3atvjtgy.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET> <476C8750.8030205@langille.org>
	<505677006-1198296903-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1641662927-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<1166.67.86.49.123.1198297743.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<20071222054816.3595.11341.yusuke@access1.cims.nyu.edu>
	<oqsl1uim9f.fsf@castrovalva.Ivy.NET>
Message-ID: <20071222142551.B81745@daemon.bsdunix.net>

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, Miles Nordin wrote:

>
> Are these apps ``blessed'' by RIM in any way?  What I mean is, can I
>
> * download the source to LJ2ME,
>
> * change it,
>
> * and then distribute it to my RIM-using friends in the same
>   easy-to-install format as the unmodified LJ2ME that I first
>   downloaded?
>
> if so, that fixes my ``won't touch it''-level objection from last time
> I dealt with this world.
>

In that specific example, LJ2ME, its freeware for non-commercial use, and 
for pay for commercial use, negotiated with the author, however, lets use 
some other app thats even more useful to us:

Now, just for clarification, there is J2ME apps, and MIDlets, MIDlets run 
on Java ME, and J2ME, is Java 2 ME, not much of a difference, the 
development toolkit is licensed by Sun under the same licenses that each 
version of java represented is under.

So lets use the MIDlet, midpssh, midpssh is a ssh client implementation 
written for Java ME that runs on several types of phones. Now some 
providers do "cripple" their phones (the one who comes to mind is verizon, 
which is why I don't use them), but some don't, and allow you to run any 
app, even "unsigned" (which is not a RIM or provider signing, its a 
cryptographic signing that is signed with a key that is blessed by the 
root key, similar to SSL, its like running a Java applet signed or 
unsigned)...

But on uncrippled phones, especially the Blackberries (and there are 
several different underlying OS's, I'm going to talk about the later 3.x 
and 4.x RIM OS bundles), you can run several different types of 
applications: MIDlets, J2ME apps, or the apps developed with the 
Blackberry specific APIs and toolkits provided by RIM. Obviously the 
MIDlets and J2ME apps look more "egeneric" because its supposed to be a 
"write once, run on multiple platform" thing.

But midpssh is open source, in fact, most of it is GNU licensed.

They can be installed a couple ways (and my experience is under 
Cingular/AT&T 
and RIM, not any other provider), OTA (over the air), "over the wire" or 
via a standard USB A to USB B mini cable using the "loader" that came with 
the device, for free. Also on later OS's and RIM devices with a microSD 
card, you can copy the apps to the microSD card and install it from there 
through the USB cable (it sees it as a mass-storage device. The main issue 
is that the "app loader" that makes it easy to move data directly to the 
built-in-storage on the device does not run on linux or BSD natively, 
though I 
know people that have gotten it all to work on linux using some windows 
emulation library, and I know it works under some *BSD's as well

And yes, you can change midpssh (in fact there are several different 
earlier iterations and forks), and distrivute it in the same ways...


> The only other thing I'd add, is that while I had Nextel, I talked
> about this problem with other J2ME-excited friends, and they always
> incorrectly told me ``no, you can do that, you can do whatever you
> want.''  Then when I started talking about cables, codes, and
> developer kits, they glazed over and showed me how to download blessed
> apps from Nextel and said ``see?''
>
> But since you've actually built some apps, you probably know where
> they didn't.  How do you distribute the ones you've built---is it a
> second-class method to the way mainstream apps are distributed?  Can
> they be widely-distributed to everyone without RIM's
> consent/involvement?
>

Not really, essentially you can distribute in any standard archive file on 
any website, or offer a .jad package OTA download off your website... RIM 
has no involvement with midpssh whatsoever.

> as far as lesser objections, I wonder if you have experience with:
>
> * do they limit your access to peripherals to prevent bits from
>   escaping the phone, like probably intending to prevent you from
>   writing a Java version of Slirp?  You can't use bluetooth or irda
>   or a serial port or anything else that could connect you to a
>   laptop?
>

Some providers do this, I have not experienced this with Cingular/AT&T 
*that much* I did experience is with the fact that bluetooth was crippled 
on Cingular's version of the OS, however loading the generic OS from RIM 
on there, it worked fine, it just didn;t come with the Cingular apps (that 
I don;t use, like Telenav or the MEdia Net WAP setup (I use the native IP 
stack instead). You can even tether it, without paying for the tehtering 
plan, its just without the "tethering plan" on Cingular/AT&T, they can 
charge you for going through the "tethering access point", some people get 
around this by sneaking through the WAP gateway, but they limit the type 
of traffic allowed through the WAP gateway, so you're stuck with 
essentially web traffic, and small amounts of other ports/protocols. I 
decided just to bite the bullet and pay for the tethering, so I didn;t 
have any hassle. Its Cingular's service model, they can do what they like, 
its not RIM charging though, its Cingular/AT&T, because they have every 
right to chage you money for thier services.


>   They used to do this.  It was annoying because you couldn't write
>   your own Java apps that connect to GPS pods.
>

You can connect to the GPS unit in the phone, or even triangulate based on 
cell tower locations, however, I don;t know how to do this personally, but 
its not crippled on the phone by RIM or even Cingular.

> * do they let you use the GPS built into the phone, or are they still
>   trying to charge a few cents ``per location fix''?
>

Nope, I pay nothing extra for the GPS in my phone. Some apps try and 
charge you for thier map usage, but there are free apps out there (Yahoo! 
GO!, InfoSpace FindIT, Google Maps Mobile, and Blackberry Maps, all of 
which are free.) that do the same things.

> * do you have to use their IDE to upload the apps over some special
>   cable, or use it to install some proprietary RIM ``header'' onto
>   the app file, or can you build them with any working J2ME DK you
>   like on your OS of choice and download them over-the-air?
>

The second choice, you can use any J2ME DK, and dl over the wire or over 
the air.

> * what is the Internet connection like?
>

Essentially the "unlimited data plan" on Cingular/AT&T is designed to be 
"WAPserved" if its only on the device, and never meant to use anything 
more complicated like ssh or google's map product or jabber/direct IM 
programs. However Cing/AT&T's "Blackberry Tethering product" allows you to 
use the normal facilitated IP stack and allows your serial/IMEI to use the 
ISPDA access point (not the standard WAP access point), which enables you 
pretty much clear access to the net, in fact its even got its own 
addressable IP. IN fact I'm pretty sure its not NAt'd at all. I;ve been 
able to tether and do pretty dann near anything, including sshing back to 
my own box. I have no problem with Cingular/AT&T charging to use that 
access point, but the facility is within the dvice to use pretty much wide 
open access to the net via wireless facilities over GPRS/EDGE.


>   Nextel's connection---the super expensive unlimited use Golden
>   Packet Spray plan you were explicitly _allowed_ to use with
>   laptops, not even anything where I was ``cheating'' or working
>   around some stumbling block---had this NAT that seemed to quietly
>   kill connections if it detected packet loss.  so IM was useless
>   unless you were standing still.  I started with a cheaper metered
>   plan, there was no NAT, and I didn't have this problem.  but the
>   packet meter in the phone never matched my bill, and I calculated
>   it would cost $1000 to download firefox over the air, so I
>   switched.  This difference between the plans was never disclosed or
>   discussed, and it took hours on hold and a couple weeks of no
>   internet because of their mistakes to switch between ``plans.''  It
>   was endlessly frustrating.


Lets just say, in the 3.5 years I've been using my blackberry for data, 
I've never had this issue.

>
>   For you, Jabber actually works, and works as well as the bundled IM
>   tools they give you?  or are they giving you some brokeass
>   Internet, or Internet that can only work well by talking to a
>   Sidekick-style proxy server which has to be on their LAN?
>

Nope, it works extremely well, as long as its going theough the straight 
ISPDA access point and not the WAP one. Like I said, the difference is the 
rate plan you use, you are allowed to use *both* if you get the tethering 
plan (which keeps coming down in price every year), but the WAP access 
point explicitly blocks some things, its not for users like you and I but 
for users like my mother or father that don't need facilities like that, 
just unlimited data through the WaP access point.


>   I mean, if they've improved upon the AIM protocol to make some kind
>   of RIMAIM, then installed a RIMAIM<->AIM bridge on their network,
>   that seems fair _as long as you can install a RIMJABBER<->Jabber
>   bridge on the regular Internet._ but, like, in my Nextel example,
>   they would probably put their bridge in front of the goofy NAT,
>   while your bridge would have to go behind it and thus maybe could
>   never work as well.
>

They have thier own PIN-to-PIN messaging system (which is fucking cool, if 
you ask me), but they haven;t improved on other IM platforms. But I use 
jabber, AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, google talk, and other IM platforms on there, 
the only things I don;t have working on are smaller ones with proprietary 
code (ie. Paltalk, but being an ex-employee, why would I *want* that?)


>
> so there.  now someone scream at me for being a hypocrite because I
> also talk sometimes like a fourteen year old girl, and a retired model
> train hobbyist, and use unfree instant messaging tools, and yet
> simultaneously lament these facts.  OMG!  The contradiction!
>

Lameting wasn;t my issue, as much as the overt anger, that seemed to come 
off as insulting to people who did use these tools, and got use out of 
them. In fact my blackberry has made my life better and easier, and I 
don;t always have to cart my laptop around. For someone with chronic 
fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome, and fibromyalgia, not having to cart 
a backpack/laptop around makes a huge difference. I've done everything to 
setting up compiles of kernela and userlands for upgrades to actually 
troubleshooting issues. Having an ssh client and a windows terminal server 
client has been eminently helpful, never mind nice objects such as the 
"Manhattan Cross Street Calculator" and other minor tools


>    ys> don't wanna pour more oil onto the flame, but I'm curious
>    ys> about what do you mean by "BSDish" in this context,
>
>
> The restrictions on the Nextel J2ME phone I had seven years ago, on
> the iPhone, and the Sidekick squash these possibilities.  not sure
> about RIM yet---we kinda brought in this new phone half way through
> the argument.
>

Not sure about the iPhone, but as far as I can see, the apps going on the 
iphone don't have to be signed or blessed by Apple, do they? can you not 
install stuff arbitrarily OTA? If not, I have the wrong impression and I'm 
sorry, That just backs up my conviction that buying the Blackberry 8800 
over the iphone was not only more inexpensive, but the better choice 
because I can do more on my own with it.


>
> Most of this new IM, socialnetworking, fancyphone stuff is about
> herding people from one fad to the next, which means things should
> change quickly but be very enticing, and that members of the old fad
> need to be excluded or else there's no reason to declare your new
> allegiance.  The protocol is your own damn business, no one else's.
> And if someone's offended it must be because of the fad's ``success,''
> not because he has to be centrally logged and pay twenty cents to ask
> what color of squash is preferred tonight, and that no one ever really
> chose this situation, just sort of got railroaded into it.
>

I disagree, the "smartphone" stuff for me is about actually having a 
portable net connection and tools that are useful to me and my job, and my 
every day life. THe PDA's usefulness is amazing. For a little more on PDAs 
and theier usefulness to SysAdmins in general see TOm Limoncelli's book 
_Time_Management_for_Systems_Administration_. Its made a huge difference 
in how I get things done, and how fact and efficient I am.



>
> for me it's hilarious to see how the debate starts to pan out when
> confronted with reality.  It's like everyone's being mocked.
>
>    tl> Honestly - yes I am a Libertarian and Objectivist, but rants
>    tl> liike yours (Miles) come out to people who aren't staunch
>    tl> capitalists like I am as if you're a crazy socialist
>    tl> zealot.
>
> In this case, you're not even objecting to my talking about something
> technical that hazily involves some of your political ideas---you're
> objecting to my particular political ideas themselves.
>

Actually I'm objecting to how you are appklying your political ideas to 
something that clearly has a different political idea behind it. Its like 
the perversion of selling copies of _The _Communist_Manifesto_.... its so 
backwards to criticize those taking advantage of a license that clearly 
encourages one to keep thier intellectual property closed if they so 
choose, to make money on it. They don;t even have to "repay" or "give 
back", in fact the biggest "giving back" Apple could have done is just 
acknoledge that some of the under the hood stuff in OS X, and the new 
iPhone and iPods is BSD code and tools. They did that, they aren;t 
obligated to do that, they aren;t obligated to give us developers, they 
aren;t obligated to give us code back, they aren't obligated to hire out 
of our deveopment pool. The licensing of the BSD tools does not require 
them to do ANYTHING other than acknwledge they are using it (and even 
then, later versions have taken that out)


> We could continue this discussion on the libertarian list or the
> objectivist list, or the staunch capitalist list, if I were subscribed
> to those.  Or we could continue on nettime-bold, if you were
> subscribed to that.  However, (surprise!)  we don't seem to subscribe
> to the same political lists.  So what if my ideas do come out to you
> that way?  I certainly don't care to tell you how you're coming across
> to me. :) This isn't the place for you to ``correct'' my politics (or
> me yours!).
>

However it is a place to talk about the specific politics of Open Source 
licensing, which is exactly what I'm doing. The GPL is software socialism 
(I'd venture more to say software communism), while the BSD license is 
software libertarianism, Its one major reason why I climbed on board, some 
of the others include the peer review, and the fact that the development 
model was clearly more organized than keeping notes on scraps of 
paper-Linus.


> I do have some political opinions, but don't think I should have to
> put up with being baited to talk about them where it's OT by someone
> calling me a child repeatedly.  Please, knock it off!  I offer once
> again that, for nycbug-l, our politics ought to be framed into some
> topical technical issue.  At least then we can argue about it in a way
> that's not obnoxious for everyone else.
>
>

They *were*.... or at least mine was... not sure about yours, you just 
sortof made a judgement on a group of people using tools and/or toys that 
you *preferred* not to use, however, the judgements you made were somewhat 
offensive and in anger. I essentially asked you: why do you do that, its 
not the first tiome you've come off as bitter, nasty, and 
ultra-curmudgeonly (except I like curmudgeons for the most part) regarding 
how you think the software world should be. Its not like that, in fact the 
BSD license does not encourage that amount of open-ness. Like I said, you 
want that, l;ook towards the FSF. (again, on-topic)

-Trish

-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16


From trish at bsdunix.net  Sat Dec 22 15:44:11 2007
From: trish at bsdunix.net (Trish Lynch)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:44:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c80712221108k31541979gcb007360cada1d21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
	<32594.204.153.88.2.1198271753.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712221108k31541979gcb007360cada1d21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071222154129.V81745@daemon.bsdunix.net>

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:

> On Dec 21, 2007 10:15 PM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely agreed. You can't do any meaningful
>> work over EDGE anyway, and if you have wifi -
>> pull out the laptop. And, worse, iphone has no ipv6 :)
>
> Pardon me sir, but how much bandwidth do you need to maintain a
> terminal ssh session?
> Do you REALLY need more than vt100 9600 baud? Think about it...
>


Hell no, in fact, I get even considerably more than that over EDGE. I've 
gotten over 384kbps, which is faster than some DSL lines, and much faster 
than most land line modems, which I worked on for YEARS.

In fact, I am addicted to some extent to "City of Heroes", and can play it 
on my laptop tethered to my blackberry over EDGE, in the bus on the way 
into the city if I want to.

Are we THAT spoiled by cable modems and "broadband"?

-Trish


-- 
Trish Lynch					   trish at bsdunix.net
Key fingerprint = 781D 2B47 AA4B FC88 B919  0CD6 26B2 1D62 6FC1 FF16


From max at neuropunks.org  Sat Dec 22 18:19:26 2007
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:26 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Proof that road runner sucks?
Message-ID: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>

So my cable connection is really slow. Calling Road Runner is pointless,
because ive already turned off and on my cable modem.
So i decided to tcpdump on the wire directly from cable modem to my laptop.
Heres some interesting tcpdump..

18:03:07.205333 arp who-has user-0cdfspr.cable.mindspring.com tell
user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
18:03:07.214745 arp who-has user-0cdfsnq.cable.mindspring.com tell
user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
18:03:07.231768 arp who-has cpe-68-174-122-163.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:07.246296 arp who-has user-0cdfsl9.cable.mindspring.com tell
user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
18:03:07.286365 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-26.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:07.335434 arp who-has user-12ldaab.cable.mindspring.com tell
user-12lda81.cable.mindspring.com
18:03:07.473139 arp who-has user-0cdfsvf.cable.mindspring.com tell
user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
18:03:07.512194 arp who-has user-0cdfsvt.cable.mindspring.com tell
user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com


we can see arp requests by rr.com router for someone called
cpe-68-174-122-163.nyc.res.rr.com. OK i can understand that, even if it
makes those requests several times a second making my connection crap.
What i dont understand is how mindspring.com got there. Obviously, im
lacking knowledge of cable networks to comprehend something this crazy.
And more to the point of why rr sucks:

18:03:46.563600 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-171.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:46.563671 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-174.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:46.564726 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-176.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:46.564840 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-178.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:46.564912 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-179.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
18:03:46.565972 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-186.nyc.res.rr.com tell
cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com

look at the times of those arps. Now consider the fact that their
network is doing this all the time, at least today - dozens of arp
requests per second.

I guess besides complaining about paying for crappy service, can anyone
shed light on why would i see so much arp traffic, and why would there
be mindspring arp traffic?..

Just venting, really.. happy holidays!


From nikolai at fetissov.org  Sun Dec 23 01:17:27 2007
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (nikolai)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 01:17:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <20071222154129.V81745@daemon.bsdunix.net>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
	<32594.204.153.88.2.1198271753.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712221108k31541979gcb007360cada1d21@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071222154129.V81745@daemon.bsdunix.net>
Message-ID: <13217.67.86.49.123.1198390647.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007, Andy Kosela wrote:
>
>> On Dec 21, 2007 10:15 PM, nikolai <nikolai at fetissov.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Absolutely agreed. You can't do any meaningful
>>> work over EDGE anyway, and if you have wifi -
>>> pull out the laptop. And, worse, iphone has no ipv6 :)
>>
>> Pardon me sir, but how much bandwidth do you need to maintain a
>> terminal ssh session?
>> Do you REALLY need more than vt100 9600 baud? Think about it...
>>
>
>
> Hell no, in fact, I get even considerably more than that over EDGE. I've
> gotten over 384kbps, which is faster than some DSL lines, and much faster
> than most land line modems, which I worked on for YEARS.
>
> In fact, I am addicted to some extent to "City of Heroes", and can play it
> on my laptop tethered to my blackberry over EDGE, in the bus on the way
> into the city if I want to.
>
> Are we THAT spoiled by cable modems and "broadband"?
>

Ok, thanks guys, that actually made me read something about EDGE.
Yep, that should be plenty enough kbps. I still don't think I'd be
using that tiny cute term for anything but basic pings any time soon -
just not enough colsXrows. Also answering a call kills the terminal
session. Trying to figure the tethering - any pointers would be welcome.

--
 Nikolai



From lists at genoverly.net  Sun Dec 23 09:00:34 2007
From: lists at genoverly.net (michael)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 09:00:34 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Proof that road runner sucks?
In-Reply-To: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>
References: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <20071223090034.2bac3ec1@openpad.genoverly.com>

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:26 -0500
Max Gribov <max at neuropunks.org> wrote:

> So my cable connection is really slow. Calling Road Runner is
> pointless, because ive already turned off and on my cable modem.
> So i decided to tcpdump on the wire directly from cable modem to my
> laptop. Heres some interesting tcpdump..
> 
[snip]
> 
> we can see arp requests by rr.com router for someone called
> cpe-68-174-122-163.nyc.res.rr.com. OK i can understand that, even if
> it makes those requests several times a second making my connection
> crap. What i dont understand is how mindspring.com got there.
> Obviously, im lacking knowledge of cable networks to comprehend
> something this crazy. And more to the point of why rr sucks:
> 
[snip]
> 
> look at the times of those arps. Now consider the fact that their
> network is doing this all the time, at least today - dozens of arp
> requests per second.
> 
> I guess besides complaining about paying for crappy service, can
> anyone shed light on why would i see so much arp traffic, and why
> would there be mindspring arp traffic?..
> 
> Just venting, really.. happy holidays!


I noticed the same thing here, when I first got my hookup.  There was
a lot of mindspring and earthlink arp traffic.  I just did a quick dump
this morning (I dumped with -n to prevent dns traffic) and found around
1000 arp requests in 60 seconds.  A little grep, awk, and sort shows
that it is concentrated to only a few sources.

I also found (well, google found) that we are not the first ones to
notice and it is not specific to our geography.

Background Internet Packet Traffic through Home Cable Connections 
College of Computer and Information Science
Northeastern University
August 5, 2004 
http://tinyurl.com/37e2ap


[shrug] whattayagonnado?

-- 

michael


From andy.kosela at gmail.com  Sun Dec 23 12:38:52 2007
From: andy.kosela at gmail.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 18:38:52 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Proof that road runner sucks?
In-Reply-To: <20071223090034.2bac3ec1@openpad.genoverly.com>
References: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>
	<20071223090034.2bac3ec1@openpad.genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <3cc535c80712230938v263f671j27c4e0cd8416e0ae@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 23, 2007 3:00 PM, michael <lists at genoverly.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:19:26 -0500
> Max Gribov <max at neuropunks.org> wrote:
>
> > So my cable connection is really slow. Calling Road Runner is
> > pointless, because ive already turned off and on my cable modem.
> > So i decided to tcpdump on the wire directly from cable modem to my
> > laptop. Heres some interesting tcpdump..
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > we can see arp requests by rr.com router for someone called
> > cpe-68-174-122-163.nyc.res.rr.com. OK i can understand that, even if
> > it makes those requests several times a second making my connection
> > crap. What i dont understand is how mindspring.com got there.
> > Obviously, im lacking knowledge of cable networks to comprehend
> > something this crazy. And more to the point of why rr sucks:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > look at the times of those arps. Now consider the fact that their
> > network is doing this all the time, at least today - dozens of arp
> > requests per second.
> >
> > I guess besides complaining about paying for crappy service, can
> > anyone shed light on why would i see so much arp traffic, and why
> > would there be mindspring arp traffic?..
> >
> > Just venting, really.. happy holidays!
>
>
> I noticed the same thing here, when I first got my hookup.  There was
> a lot of mindspring and earthlink arp traffic.  I just did a quick dump
> this morning (I dumped with -n to prevent dns traffic) and found around
> 1000 arp requests in 60 seconds.  A little grep, awk, and sort shows
> that it is concentrated to only a few sources.
>
> I also found (well, google found) that we are not the first ones to
> notice and it is not specific to our geography.

Using cable modem means you share a network with all other
subscribers. In concept it's very similar to LAN network - that's why
you see all those ARP's.
Cable modems are transmitting Ethernet broadcast packets to every
subscriber on the neighborhood - this is definetly a big security
risk. In LAN's
the way to prevent those type of broadcast flooding is to employ
VLAN's logically separating traffic.

The ARP problem will be solved by the next-generation cable modems
that implement the DOCSIS 1.1 protocol. Instead of broadcasting ARP
packets over the entire cable segment, DOCSIS 1.1 makes sure that each
customer will only see the ARP messages intended for his or her
machine. As an added protection, DOCSIS 1.1 is also capable of
encrypting all information sent over the cable itself, with a separate
encryption key for each customer. This security measure prevents an
attacker from splicing their own cable modem into the backbone, the
way that some people used to hook up unauthorized cable decoders to
get free cable TV service.

--
Andy Kosela
Protect Ya Neck Records / Wu-Tang Management
www.protect-ya-neck.com


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Wed Dec 26 14:50:00 2007
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:50:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Proof that road runner sucks?
In-Reply-To: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>
References: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <aa9991030712261150u2db891a5q3cccee519e4a8fc8@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2007 6:19 PM, Max Gribov <max at neuropunks.org> wrote:
> So my cable connection is really slow. Calling Road Runner is pointless,
> because ive already turned off and on my cable modem.
> So i decided to tcpdump on the wire directly from cable modem to my laptop.
> Heres some interesting tcpdump..
>
> 18:03:07.205333 arp who-has user-0cdfspr.cable.mindspring.com tell
> user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
> 18:03:07.214745 arp who-has user-0cdfsnq.cable.mindspring.com tell
> user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
> 18:03:07.231768 arp who-has cpe-68-174-122-163.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:07.246296 arp who-has user-0cdfsl9.cable.mindspring.com tell
> user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
> 18:03:07.286365 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-26.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:07.335434 arp who-has user-12ldaab.cable.mindspring.com tell
> user-12lda81.cable.mindspring.com
> 18:03:07.473139 arp who-has user-0cdfsvf.cable.mindspring.com tell
> user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
> 18:03:07.512194 arp who-has user-0cdfsvt.cable.mindspring.com tell
> user-0cdfs01.cable.mindspring.com
>
>
> we can see arp requests by rr.com router for someone called
> cpe-68-174-122-163.nyc.res.rr.com. OK i can understand that, even if it
> makes those requests several times a second making my connection crap.
> What i dont understand is how mindspring.com got there. Obviously, im
> lacking knowledge of cable networks to comprehend something this crazy.
> And more to the point of why rr sucks:
>
> 18:03:46.563600 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-171.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:46.563671 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-174.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:46.564726 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-176.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:46.564840 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-178.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:46.564912 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-179.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
> 18:03:46.565972 arp who-has cpe-68-174-123-186.nyc.res.rr.com tell
> cpe-68-174-112-1.nyc.res.rr.com
>
> look at the times of those arps. Now consider the fact that their
> network is doing this all the time, at least today - dozens of arp
> requests per second.
>
> I guess besides complaining about paying for crappy service, can anyone
> shed light on why would i see so much arp traffic, and why would there
> be mindspring arp traffic?..
>
> Just venting, really.. happy holidays!
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


I have RoadRunner. I called to complain that my bill was too high and
they said that I could get the same service, but resold through
Earthlink. Earthlink bought Mindspring a while back, so I guess the
DNS is all mixed up.
Anyway, I switched back to RoadRunner because they now offer a service
that's cheaper than Earthlink.
Does'nt explain the slowness, but no need to worry. It's all on the
same layer2 network, since I've had the same modem ever since I was
hooked up several years ago.

-jesse


From scottro at nyc.rr.com  Wed Dec 26 18:00:17 2007
From: scottro at nyc.rr.com (Scott Robbins)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:00:17 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Proof that road runner sucks?
In-Reply-To: <aa9991030712261150u2db891a5q3cccee519e4a8fc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <476D9B7E.5070205@neuropunks.org>
	<aa9991030712261150u2db891a5q3cccee519e4a8fc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071226230017.GB65270@mail.scottro.net>

On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 02:50:00PM -0500, Jesse Callaway wrote:
> 


> I have RoadRunner. I called to complain that my bill was too high and
> they said that I could get the same service, but resold through
> Earthlink. Earthlink bought Mindspring a while back, so I guess the
> DNS is all mixed up.
> Anyway, I switched back to RoadRunner because they now offer a service
> that's cheaper than Earthlink.
> Does'nt explain the slowness, but no need to worry. It's all on the
> same layer2 network, since I've had the same modem ever since I was
> hooked up several years ago.

I've had trouble with them a couple of times, where I was getting what
seemed to be unexplained slowness.  The first time, someone came out and
couldn't find anything, so I called them again, and asked to exchange my
modem, as it seemed a likely point of failure.  Changing the modem fixed
it. 

It happened to me again this year--I didn't ask for service, I just
asked if I could exchange my modem, they said yes, I did and once again,
everything was fine.  

This isn't really an answer to your issue, but posted more for general
reference. 


-- 
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Willow: I don't care if it is an orgy of death, there's
still such a thing as a napkin.


From af.dingo at gmail.com  Wed Dec 26 23:33:03 2007
From: af.dingo at gmail.com (Jeff Quast)
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:33:03 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Extreme mobile BSD
In-Reply-To: <20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
References: <23410.67.86.49.123.1198211549.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
	<3cc535c80712211101q2ef944d6s643958d5ad9da85@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071221151652.33ceb345@openpad.genoverly.com>
Message-ID: <c1feb8190712262033t7eb61178u4ec451deb2459119@mail.gmail.com>

I think, maybe, users who cannot handle using unix with small devices
might use emacs.

So I am thinking, maybe we could develop a bluetooth foot pedal for
the meta key? hmm!


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Dec 28 21:48:45 2007
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 21:48:45 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] upcoming meetings
Message-ID: <4775B58D.40607@ceetonetechnology.com>

First, I want to encourage anyone with a meeting idea to email admin@ 
with a proposal . . . there's lots of things people are doing out there 
that warrant a meeting.

Second, I strongly recommend anyone planning to attend the Jan 9th 
meeting with Angelos
(http://www.nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Home;SUBM=10141) to read the 
associated PDF referenced at the end of the post.

Once in a while, we're trying to do meetings like his SSARES meeting, 
much like Matthew Burnsides' earlier in the year.  These are not typical 
NYCBUG hands-on production-related meetings. . . rather they are more 
research or academic in the inclination.

These meetings force us to not just dig into our experiences, but rather 
to think about larger technology issues in a research-driven manner. . . 
a bit more abstract, but nevertheless extremely useful.

I think in many ways, what USENIX has done with meeting or paper topics 
such as these, provides a nice model.

The point of envisioning a secure email system isn't about Postfix v 
Sendmail, etc., but rather to begin to piece together models that 
address some of the inherent problems with email systems *in general* 
right now.

On that note, again, check out the paper, as it will make our discussion 
that much more useful at the meeting.

George