[nycbug-talk] For and Against IPv6

Isaac Levy ike at lesmuug.org
Thu Oct 11 19:03:51 EDT 2007


Alex, your really awesome to put up with my relentless barrage today...

On Oct 11, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Alex Pilosov wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Isaac Levy wrote:
>> Does Pilosoft then not charge for additional IP's?  If so, can't  
>> get at
>> least a /8 from you if I buy a Pilosoft DSL line, how about just  
>> a /24
>> for starters?
> there's simply no need to have that many IPs, really

How can you decide that for me?
The ISP is the gatekeeper for me, so in the end you do decide-  
HOWEVER, what business is it of yours if I'm running several hundred  
virtual machines behind my DSL line, which use my internet connection  
all day and night?

I don't care if you think it's sane, but the 5 friends who came by  
the other night all had iPhones, (which I dropped onto my wireless  
network).  The size, use, and accessibility of networked devices is  
changing...  And VoIP using devices like those iPhones aren't far  
away, along with new network applications...

My serious frustration here, is who are you to tell me how many  
addresses 'I need'?  Why would you even care to comment?  I'm  
seriously asking.

>> But aren't there costs managing the individual IPv4 addresses?  I  
>> ran a
>> web-hosting ISP, you run a full-blown ISP- doesn't someone have to  
>> get
>> paid to manage netblock usage, as a part of managing the service?
>> Doesn't that task become more time consuming (and difficult) as
>> netblocks become more completely utilized?
> eh kind of. everyone has their own ghetto ip allocation softwares.  
> which
> doesn't become more expensive as it gets more utilized. then you  
> just go
> to arin for more ips.

Ok- so again, where's my /24 for home use?

>>>>>> 3) The rest of the developed (and much of the underdeveloped)
>>>>>> world is deploying it for production use, only Univ./Govt. are
>>>>>> horsing around with it in the US...
>>>>> not really no, nobody cares, except for japs.
>>>> What about Russia, Alex?  I guess they have plenty of IP's.
>>> Until RIRs say "we cannot give you any more IPs", there's no problem
>>> at all. Everyone can get IPs today. Thus, nobody feels the pain.
>> Again, where is my free /24 for my home?  I'll use every one,  
>> right now.
> why, there's no purpose.

Grrrrr, why do you care what I do with them?

>>>> Have you or your customers done any business with Taiwan or China
>>>> recently?  My people have...
>>> What's that have to do with anything? are you saying that people in
>>> taiwan have v6-only connectivity and unable to communicate to v4
>>> sites?  [for the record, i do believe there are some providers who
>>> give by default both v4 and v6 ips. i don't know any provider in any
>>> country who'd give v6 only ip and 6to4 for the v4 access].
>> Gotcha- who are the providers who do both v4 and v6?
> i think broadband in china/japan are like that. none here.

Yes, obviously- and spotty between European countries, but a  
surprising number simply do IPv6 like it's no big thing...

> <snip>
>> (I have many small networked systems in my home office I'm dying to
>> have online TODAY.)
> I see. you are one of few people.

Am I, really?

Why did my neighbor (a comic book artist) ask me why he couldn't make  
a website from his Cable connection?

I would argue that people *would* use it, but they don't have it, and  
only geeks like us ask for it...

>> Wouldn't you'd sell more bandwidth, if more people used more internet
>> services and devices?
> not really, dsl is flat-rate ;)

If I saturated the pipe, I'd get more of them...

>>> show the business need. you say you want 65k IPs -
>>> what for?
>> Home Style Answer:
>> Easy, personally, counting on my hands (the geek view):
>> I just counted 19 computers of various shapes and sizes,
>> architectures- in my home office, which I use and would quickly
>> connect to the internet.  Of those 18 computers, 6 of them have 2 or
>> more ethernet interfaces, and I count 9 wireless interfaces.  I'm
>> doing dev. work using jails, and working on jailed system
>> architecture.  My apartment alone currently has 3 active /24 subnets,
> wow, you are a geek. i'm sorry. i might be talked into throwing you  
> a /24
> just because of that...

Really?!!!!!!  I'll order that Pilosoft DSL tomorrow monrning if I  
get a /23 with it.  (give em' an inch...)

And I will use the netblock, immediately, as well as saturating the  

> <snip>
>> So, with that stated, their customers in Asia, (mostly other  
>> businesses,
>> not direct consumers), are increasingly mentioning services on  
>> corporate
>> IPv6 networks, and they maintain a few IPv4 points of entry into  
>> their
>> network which Americans/Westerners touch.  The servers they  
>> maintain on
>> the IPv4 internet are saturated.  With that, it would actually be FAR
>> more convenient if we all could simply connect to their servers via
>> IPv6, and provide them usable IPv6 service as well.
> interesting point. i've never heard this. get their v6 ips, i want to
> see how the connectivity there looks like.

It's fun!  I felt like a child when I hit IPv6 wireless nodes from  
Tokyo cafe's!  Had routes, but didn't know what to do with them  
except traceroute and ping... :)

>> There's loads of confusion about IT from my employers, because  
>> there's
>> enough difficulty with spoken language barriers...
>> Another business client is starting to sell products across the  
>> internet
>> in Japan, and gee-whiz, do I have to go to Japan and get a cabinet to
>> make this happen?  (oh twist my arm, right...)
> that kind of doesn't make sense. they can reach your v4 site just  
> fine.

Yes and no- there are small segments of customer networks where their  
6 to 4 translation is yet another thing to set up, and the machines  
only *need* to connect to other company/asian resources, which are IPv6.

You are correct that this is not a show-stopper problem, but it's a  
small issue.

>> So is that enough of a business case for me ask my ISP's for a
>> production-grade IPv6 internet connection?
> just barely.

Oh Jeez Louise.  That's it, Alex, you've broken my spirit- I'm moving  
to Tokyo.

No seriously, except for the bofh hubris, and the wild assumptions  
regarding every human being's intended uses with their connections to  
the internet, I'm really learning a lot about the ISP challenges for  
the eventual IPv6 transion...  This isn't an easy problem to solve.

If I could hand you the easy plan for you to provide me with IPv6, I  
would.  (but I'd expect a lot of free service with it :)


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