[nycbug-talk] For and Against IPv6

[Isaac Levy]

Word,

Alex, your really awesome to put up with my relentless barrage today...

On Oct 11, 2007, at 6:30 PM, Alex Pilosov wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
>> Does Pilosoft then not charge for additional IP's?  If so, can't  
>> get at
>> least a /8 from you if I buy a Pilosoft DSL line, how about just  
>> a /24
>> for starters?
> there's simply no need to have that many IPs, really

How can you decide that for me?
The ISP is the gatekeeper for me, so in the end you do decide-  
HOWEVER, what business is it of yours if I'm running several hundred  
virtual machines behind my DSL line, which use my internet connection  
all day and night?

I don't care if you think it's sane, but the 5 friends who came by  
the other night all had iPhones, (which I dropped onto my wireless  
network).  The size, use, and accessibility of networked devices is  
changing...  And VoIP using devices like those iPhones aren't far  
away, along with new network applications...

--
My serious frustration here, is who are you to tell me how many  
addresses 'I need'?  Why would you even care to comment?  I'm  
seriously asking.

>
>> But aren't there costs managing the individual IPv4 addresses?  I  
>> ran a
>> web-hosting ISP, you run a full-blown ISP- doesn't someone have to  
>> get
>> paid to manage netblock usage, as a part of managing the service?
>> Doesn't that task become more time consuming (and difficult) as
>> netblocks become more completely utilized?
> eh kind of. everyone has their own ghetto ip allocation softwares.  
> which
> doesn't become more expensive as it gets more utilized. then you  
> just go
> to arin for more ips.

Ok- so again, where's my /24 for home use?

>
>>>>>> 3) The rest of the developed (and much of the underdeveloped)
>>>>>> world is deploying it for production use, only Univ./Govt. are
>>>>>> horsing around with it in the US...
>>>>> not really no, nobody cares, except for japs.
>>>>
>>>> What about Russia, Alex?  I guess they have plenty of IP's.
>>> Until RIRs say "we cannot give you any more IPs", there's no problem
>>> at all. Everyone can get IPs today. Thus, nobody feels the pain.
>>
>> Again, where is my free /24 for my home?  I'll use every one,  
>> right now.
> why, there's no purpose.

Grrrrr, why do you care what I do with them?

>
>>>> Have you or your customers done any business with Taiwan or China
>>>> recently?  My people have...
>>> What's that have to do with anything? are you saying that people in
>>> taiwan have v6-only connectivity and unable to communicate to v4
>>> sites?  [for the record, i do believe there are some providers who
>>> give by default both v4 and v6 ips. i don't know any provider in any
>>> country who'd give v6 only ip and 6to4 for the v4 access].
>>
>> Gotcha- who are the providers who do both v4 and v6?
> i think broadband in china/japan are like that. none here.

Yes, obviously- and spotty between European countries, but a  
surprising number simply do IPv6 like it's no big thing...

>
> <snip>
>
>> (I have many small networked systems in my home office I'm dying to
>> have online TODAY.)
> I see. you are one of few people.

Am I, really?

Why did my neighbor (a comic book artist) ask me why he couldn't make  
a website from his Cable connection?

I would argue that people *would* use it, but they don't have it, and  
only geeks like us ask for it...

>
>> Wouldn't you'd sell more bandwidth, if more people used more internet
>> services and devices?
> not really, dsl is flat-rate ;)

If I saturated the pipe, I'd get more of them...

>
>>
>>> show the business need. you say you want 65k IPs -
>>> what for?
>>
>> Home Style Answer:
>> Easy, personally, counting on my hands (the geek view):
>>
>> I just counted 19 computers of various shapes and sizes,
>> architectures- in my home office, which I use and would quickly
>> connect to the internet.  Of those 18 computers, 6 of them have 2 or
>> more ethernet interfaces, and I count 9 wireless interfaces.  I'm
>> doing dev. work using jails, and working on jailed system
>> architecture.  My apartment alone currently has 3 active /24 subnets,
> wow, you are a geek. i'm sorry. i might be talked into throwing you  
> a /24
> just because of that...

Really?!!!!!!  I'll order that Pilosoft DSL tomorrow monrning if I  
get a /23 with it.  (give em' an inch...)

And I will use the netblock, immediately, as well as saturating the  
pipe...

>
> <snip>
>
>> So, with that stated, their customers in Asia, (mostly other  
>> businesses,
>> not direct consumers), are increasingly mentioning services on  
>> corporate
>> IPv6 networks, and they maintain a few IPv4 points of entry into  
>> their
>> network which Americans/Westerners touch.  The servers they  
>> maintain on
>> the IPv4 internet are saturated.  With that, it would actually be FAR
>> more convenient if we all could simply connect to their servers via
>> IPv6, and provide them usable IPv6 service as well.
> interesting point. i've never heard this. get their v6 ips, i want to
> see how the connectivity there looks like.

It's fun!  I felt like a child when I hit IPv6 wireless nodes from  
Tokyo cafe's!  Had routes, but didn't know what to do with them  
except traceroute and ping... :)

>
>> There's loads of confusion about IT from my employers, because  
>> there's
>> enough difficulty with spoken language barriers...
>>
>> Another business client is starting to sell products across the  
>> internet
>> in Japan, and gee-whiz, do I have to go to Japan and get a cabinet to
>> make this happen?  (oh twist my arm, right...)
> that kind of doesn't make sense. they can reach your v4 site just  
> fine.

Yes and no- there are small segments of customer networks where their  
6 to 4 translation is yet another thing to set up, and the machines  
only *need* to connect to other company/asian resources, which are IPv6.

You are correct that this is not a show-stopper problem, but it's a  
small issue.

>
>> So is that enough of a business case for me ask my ISP's for a
>> production-grade IPv6 internet connection?
> just barely.

Oh Jeez Louise.  That's it, Alex, you've broken my spirit- I'm moving  
to Tokyo.

--
No seriously, except for the bofh hubris, and the wild assumptions  
regarding every human being's intended uses with their connections to  
the internet, I'm really learning a lot about the ISP challenges for  
the eventual IPv6 transion...  This isn't an easy problem to solve.

If I could hand you the easy plan for you to provide me with IPv6, I  
would.  (but I'd expect a lot of free service with it :)

Rocket-
.ike