From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 20:32:10 2010
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:32:10 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDTV.org
Message-ID: <35ef74971003011732u267ad8absde0ec1a789d07113@mail.gmail.com>

Please check out our BSD News project bsdtv.blip.tv. So far our collection
has 3 videos. The first two are talks by Dru Lavigne on BSD Certification
and Unix for Linux users and the third is a video I put together with the
slides and audio of the NYCBUG Hadoop meeting in Jan of this year. We are
currently looking for help designing a Logo for the project and any
BSD-related video footage you may have. Videos of old Cons or talks are
especially welcome. If you would like to contribute to our project please
feel free to contact me either directly or on talk.
Thanks,
Patrick McEvoy
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From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 21:48:22 2010
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:48:22 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDTV.org
In-Reply-To: <35ef74971003011732u267ad8absde0ec1a789d07113@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35ef74971003011732u267ad8absde0ec1a789d07113@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35ef74971003011848u35241ed5l166aa0330dc533ad@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Pat McEvoy <mcevoy.pat at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Please check out our BSD News project bsdtv.blip.tv. So far our collection has 3 videos. The first two are talks by Dru Lavigne on BSD Certification and Unix for Linux users and the third is a video I put together with the slides and audio of the NYCBUG Hadoop meeting in Jan of this year. We are currently looking for help designing a Logo for the project and any BSD-related video footage you may have. Videos of old Cons or talks are especially welcome. If you would like to contribute to our project please feel free to contact me either directly or on talk.
> Thanks,
> Patrick McEvoy

******
******

If you would like to talk to us about the BSDTV project we will be at
Suspenders at 6pm on 3/3/10 before the "

PFSense II, Rocking The Datacenter" meeting if anyone has any
questions or would like to volunteer their services.


From isaac at diversaform.com  Wed Mar  3 17:04:56 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:04:56 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple VGA Adapter
Message-ID: <33799389-B9A4-4280-AF32-25B3A9DEE9A0@diversaform.com>

Hi All,

If anybody has one, can you please bring a MacBook (black plastic) VGA adapter for tonight's meeting?!?
-or-
I have a DVI adapter, so if anyone has a DVI->VGA adapter, that may work...

YIKES!

Rocket,
.ike

From robin.polak at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 17:10:00 2010
From: robin.polak at gmail.com (Robin Polak)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:10:00 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Apple VGA Adapter
In-Reply-To: <33799389-B9A4-4280-AF32-25B3A9DEE9A0@diversaform.com>
References: <33799389-B9A4-4280-AF32-25B3A9DEE9A0@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <551868241003031410h2bf37461u39dc8e4b5f7bc2b1@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a DVI to VGA adapter right here.  I shall bring it with me.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 17:04, Isaac Levy <isaac at diversaform.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> If anybody has one, can you please bring a MacBook (black plastic) VGA
> adapter for tonight's meeting?!?
> -or-
> I have a DVI adapter, so if anyone has a DVI->VGA adapter, that may work...
>
> YIKES!
>
> Rocket,
> .ike
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Robin Polak
E-Mail: robin.polak at gmail.com
V. 917-494-2080
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From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 00:09:51 2010
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 00:09:51 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSDTV.org
Message-ID: <35ef74971003032109t7b76a437r54bf738c4a7fb5a6@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,
Great meeting. I am looking forward to putting this talk and slides
together as a show.
If anyone has any footage they would like to share or design chops to
make a logo, we would love to hear from you.
Thank you, to George for the box and the opportunity to build this
project, and to Ike for a great talk.
Patrick McEvoy


From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar  4 12:11:47 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:11:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PFSense Talk Followup,
	Fwd: igb(4) quad port patch for 7.x
References: <201003040854.12173.jhb@freebsd.org>
Message-ID: <8FB40E20-FFA5-4992-871C-0AEA999CEE77@diversaform.com>

Hi All,

On Mar 4, 2010, at 8:54 AM, John Baldwin wrote:

> This is the patch we have at work to support a newer quad-port igb(4) part on 
> 7:
> 
> Index: dev/e1000/if_igb.c
> ===================================================================
> --- dev/e1000/if_igb.c	(.../mirror/FreeBSD/stable/7/sys)	(revision 204581)
> +++ dev/e1000/if_igb.c	(.../stable/7/sys)	(revision 204581)
> @@ -118,6 +118,8 @@
> 	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576,		PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
> 	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576_FIBER,	PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
> 	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576_SERDES,	PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
> +	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576_QUAD_COPPER,
> +						PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
> 	/* required last entry */
> 	{ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0}
> };
> 
> I'm not sure how easy it is to build a new kernel or igb.ko module with 
> pfSense, but this patch should apply to the pfSense version of if_igb.c just 
> fine I imagine.
> 
> -- 
> John Baldwin
> 

Thought I'd post this here for the record, since a number of people asked if I could send them the fix...

My plan is to:

1) immeadiately foreword this on to the folks who now manage those boxes

2) see if I cant' get this pushed back over to the PFSense folks, in an attempt to propogate the patch using the FreeBSD 7.x base,

On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:47 AM, George Neville-Neil wrote:
> If they're going to 8.x in the next release then this is in there.


Best,
.ike



--
Patch pasted cleanly below without CC markup:

Index: dev/e1000/if_igb.c
===================================================================
--- dev/e1000/if_igb.c	(.../mirror/FreeBSD/stable/7/sys)	(revision 204581)
+++ dev/e1000/if_igb.c	(.../stable/7/sys)	(revision 204581)
@@ -118,6 +118,8 @@
	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576,		PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576_FIBER,	PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576_SERDES,	PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
+	{ 0x8086, E1000_DEV_ID_82576_QUAD_COPPER,
+						PCI_ANY_ID, PCI_ANY_ID, 0},
	/* required last entry */
	{ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0}
};




From nikolai at fetissov.org  Thu Mar  4 16:32:31 2010
From: nikolai at fetissov.org (Nikolai Fetissov)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:32:31 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] March 2010 meeting audio
Message-ID: <7fcd765beacd756c497d87a99786e0aa.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>

Folks,

Audio of Ike's not-the-jails presentation from yesterday is online:
http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbug/nycbug-03-03-10.mp3

Cheers,
--
 Nikolai


From nycbug at chrisbuechler.com  Thu Mar  4 19:57:09 2010
From: nycbug at chrisbuechler.com (Chris Buechler)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:57:09 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PFSense Talk Followup,
 Fwd: igb(4) quad port patch for 7.x
In-Reply-To: <8FB40E20-FFA5-4992-871C-0AEA999CEE77@diversaform.com>
References: <201003040854.12173.jhb@freebsd.org>
	<8FB40E20-FFA5-4992-871C-0AEA999CEE77@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <4B9056E5.7040106@chrisbuechler.com>

On 3/4/2010 12:11 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>
> Thought I'd post this here for the record, since a number of people asked if I could send them the fix...
>
> My plan is to:
>
> 1) immeadiately foreword this on to the folks who now manage those boxes
>
> 2) see if I cant' get this pushed back over to the PFSense folks, in an attempt to propogate the patch using the FreeBSD 7.x base,
>    


The next release, 2.0, is being built off RELENG_8 (what will be 8.1), 
which should have that already. Not likely to be another release on 
RELENG_7*.

Nicely done presentation Ike, thanks for promoting the project!

Some comments after listening to the talk (I missed some things, 
listening to it in the background while working on other things, feel 
free to follow up with questions):

1) IPv6 - that's likely to be the first thing that goes in after the 2.0 
release. Just hasn't been a priority compared to many other things 
because it's not available outside of tunneling for 99.99% of our user 
base. That's starting to change though.

2) plain text passwords in config - that's from m0n0wall and we've kept 
the same, anything that must be used in plain text (mpd (PPTP, PPPoE), 
dynamic DNS) is stored in plain text. Those cannot be hashed. Explained 
further here: http://doc.m0n0.ch/handbook/faq-plaintextpass.html  It's 
impossible to securely store those, so rather than obscure things in an 
easily reversible format, we keep it blatantly obvious that the config 
file has sensitive data and needs to be appropriately secured.

3) States on failover - states are (almost) fully preserved during 
failover, that's the entire purpose of pfsync. There will be some loss 
of states inevitably but you'll get the vast majority of them. The 
primary is always syncing to the secondary, and vice versa. And when 
your primary comes back up after rebooting or replacing hardware or 
whatever, it gets a full state table sync from the secondary.

4) NAT reflection - in general, NAT reflection is supported, it's ugly 
as it's just a bunch of netcat instances that forward traffic back in 
(as the source must also be rewritten, and it gets looped through the 
firewall). The better option is split DNS, but reflection does work fine 
(it's disabled by default). The exclusion, which is the context it was 
talked about in, is with server load balancing. There are options there, 
depending on exactly how the setup works, but they usually involve 
creating a separate load balancing pool listening on an internal IP and 
using split DNS.

5) haproxy - noted this was mentioned, there's a relatively new package 
for haproxy, a much more capable load balancer than the basic slbd 
that's built in. It is relatively new but it's being used in production 
and seems to be working fine. It's the best haproxy GUI out there from 
what I've seen (tried looking at a number of others to get ideas as we 
were designing things, ended up with something unlike what anyone else 
has as no one else has done even a remotely good job of putting together 
a full GUI for it). If you're going to try it, I'd recommend 
haproxy-dev, as it's soon to be moved over to haproxy.


That's what I caught at least. If there were any questions that went 
unanswered, feel free to ask.

I'll be at NYCBSDCon this year, look forward to seeing a number of you 
whom I've met in the past at BSDCan, and meeting others.

We're also having a training tutorial at BSDCan this year for those of 
you who can make it up there.

cheers,
Chris



From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar  4 20:08:57 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:08:57 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Slides [Was:  March 2010 meeting audio]
In-Reply-To: <7fcd765beacd756c497d87a99786e0aa.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
References: <7fcd765beacd756c497d87a99786e0aa.squirrel@www.geekisp.com>
Message-ID: <6E202C84-D1BE-4B5A-9EAA-683B252CEEAE@diversaform.com>

Slides,

On Mar 4, 2010, at 4:32 PM, Nikolai Fetissov wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> Audio of Ike's not-the-jails presentation from yesterday is online:
> http://www.fetissov.org/public/nycbug/nycbug-03-03-10.mp3
> 
> Cheers,
> --
> Nikolai

As always, thanks Nikolai!

I posted the slides online here:
http://dotike.net/PFSense/PFSense_II-nycbug-ike_03042010.pdf

And thanks for coming everyone!

Best,
.ike




From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar  4 20:16:07 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:16:07 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] PFSense Talk Followup,
	Fwd: igb(4) quad port patch for 7.x
In-Reply-To: <4B9056E5.7040106@chrisbuechler.com>
References: <201003040854.12173.jhb@freebsd.org>
	<8FB40E20-FFA5-4992-871C-0AEA999CEE77@diversaform.com>
	<4B9056E5.7040106@chrisbuechler.com>
Message-ID: <D3DE7905-E216-44EB-AA93-1A814684875F@diversaform.com>

Amazing,

On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:57 PM, Chris Buechler wrote:

> On 3/4/2010 12:11 PM, Isaac Levy wrote:
>> 
>> Thought I'd post this here for the record, since a number of people asked if I could send them the fix...
>> 
>> My plan is to:
>> 
>> 1) immeadiately foreword this on to the folks who now manage those boxes
>> 
>> 2) see if I cant' get this pushed back over to the PFSense folks, in an attempt to propogate the patch using the FreeBSD 7.x base,
>>   
> 
> 
> The next release, 2.0, is being built off RELENG_8 (what will be 8.1), which should have that already. Not likely to be another release on RELENG_7*.
> 
> Nicely done presentation Ike, thanks for promoting the project!
> 
> Some comments after listening to the talk (I missed some things, listening to it in the background while working on other things, feel free to follow up with questions):
> 
> 1) IPv6 - that's likely to be the first thing that goes in after the 2.0 release. Just hasn't been a priority compared to many other things because it's not available outside of tunneling for 99.99% of our user base. That's starting to change though.

YEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

> 
> 2) plain text passwords in config - that's from m0n0wall and we've kept the same, anything that must be used in plain text (mpd (PPTP, PPPoE), dynamic DNS) is stored in plain text. Those cannot be hashed. Explained further here: http://doc.m0n0.ch/handbook/faq-plaintextpass.html  It's impossible to securely store those, so rather than obscure things in an easily reversible format, we keep it blatantly obvious that the config file has sensitive data and needs to be appropriately secured.

I hope it came across right, I completely appreciate this approach- I believe it's far better than just doing some slapdash insecure BS that 'looks secure'...

Config files are, after all, critical resources!

> 
> 3) States on failover - states are (almost) fully preserved during failover, that's the entire purpose of pfsync. There will be some loss of states inevitably but you'll get the vast majority of them. The primary is always syncing to the secondary, and vice versa. And when your primary comes back up after rebooting or replacing hardware or whatever, it gets a full state table sync from the secondary.

Oh!  Well I'll be...

Is this true for IPSEC tunnels?  (Mine always drop and re-initiate when the failover occurs...)

> 
> 4) NAT reflection - in general, NAT reflection is supported, it's ugly as it's just a bunch of netcat instances that forward traffic back in (as the source must also be rewritten, and it gets looped through the firewall). The better option is split DNS, but reflection does work fine (it's disabled by default). The exclusion, which is the context it was talked about in, is with server load balancing. There are options there, depending on exactly how the setup works, but they usually involve creating a separate load balancing pool listening on an internal IP and using split DNS.
> 
> 5) haproxy - noted this was mentioned, there's a relatively new package for haproxy, a much more capable load balancer than the basic slbd that's built in. It is relatively new but it's being used in production and seems to be working fine. It's the best haproxy GUI out there from what I've seen (tried looking at a number of others to get ideas as we were designing things, ended up with something unlike what anyone else has as no one else has done even a remotely good job of putting together a full GUI for it). If you're going to try it, I'd recommend haproxy-dev, as it's soon to be moved over to haproxy.

!!!!!!!!! Wow. 

> 
> 
> That's what I caught at least. If there were any questions that went unanswered, feel free to ask.
> 
> I'll be at NYCBSDCon this year, look forward to seeing a number of you whom I've met in the past at BSDCan, and meeting others.
> 
> We're also having a training tutorial at BSDCan this year for those of you who can make it up there.
> 
> cheers,
> Chris

Thanks for posting these additions/corrections Chris!  I know we're all really excited to finally see yall in NYC-

And keep up the great work!

Best,
.ike




From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com  Fri Mar  5 13:27:58 2010
From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 13:27:58 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Links to our 3 videos:
Message-ID: <35ef74971003051027jdf48027y26654becd7fff6d5@mail.gmail.com>

So far we have 3 videos posted to our Bliptv site. We plan to have
them all available on our bsdtv.org site when it becomes available.
Enjoy,
Patrick

BSD Certification Group: A Case Study in Open Source Certification
(October 9, 2009)
Description
Dru Lavigne, Chair of the BSD Certification Group gives an informative
talk about the creation of the open source certification system for
the BSD operating system. This talk covers the BSDA and BSDP
certifications and the Psychometrically Valid testing process for
confirming an in depth knowledge of the BSD operating system.

http://blip.tv/file/3271077


BSD4LinuxUsers
Description
Dru Lavigne, Chair of the BSD Certification Group gives an informative
talk about the differences between Linux-based and BSD Operating
Systems. This talk covers the different BSD Operating Systems (PCBSD,
DragonFlyBSD FreeBSD NetBSD & OpenBSD) and how they compare with the
numerous Linux-based distributions.

http://blip.tv/file/3271959


BSDTV -NYCBUG-JAN10
Description
This video was made from the slides and audio recording of a NYCBUG
meeting in Jan. of 2010. From the NYCBUG site: This presentation gives
a brief high level overview of Hadoop. Next, we hit the ground running
with a quick practical example of how Hadoop solves a "big data"
problem. We also discuss how the demonstrated Hadoop processing model
scales out to terabytes of data and hundreds or even thousands of
computers.

http://blip.tv/file/3276543


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Mar  9 02:25:38 2010
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:25:38 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd ipsec issue
Message-ID: <CC0FEDCE-DEE0-4A79-AFD3-23802ABBC75C@nomadlogic.org>

hey all - so i've been banging my head on this one for a bit and figured someone on @nycbug has a similar setup running.

i have two networks i am trying to connect via a ipsec tunnel using openbsd 4.6.  i have a simple /etc/ipsec.conf up, and a pretty simple pf config as well.  when i have everything up and running, i tcpdump my enc0 interface and see that when i ping one endpoints external interface traffic is flowing via enc0.  yet when i try to ping an ip an end-points internal network i get nothing on enc0 and no ping replies.  here's my setup:

---

NY ipsec.conf:
TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"

ike passive esp tunnel from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT \
        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes

ike passive esp tunnel from $TNY_INT to $TSJ_INT \
        peer $TSJ_EXT \
        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes

NY pf.conf:
# macros
int_if = "bge0"
ext_if = "bge1"
icmp_types = "{ echorep, echoreq, timex, unreach }"
#  Define Each Sites int/ext interfaces
TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"

# filter rules
#block in log on { enc0, $ext_if } all
#block out on { enc0, $ext_if } all

pass quick on lo0 all

pass in on $ext_if inet proto icmp from any to $ext_if icmp-type $icmp_types keep state

pass in  on $int_if from $int_if:network to any keep state
pass out on $int_if from any to $int_if:network keep state

pass out on $ext_if proto tcp all modulate state
pass out on $ext_if proto { udp, icmp } all keep state

## VPN ##
# Passing in encrypted traffic from security gateways
pass in on $ext_if proto esp from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT
pass out on $ext_if proto esp from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT

# Passing in isakmpd(8) traffic from the security gateways
pass in on $ext_if proto udp from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT port { 500, 4500 }
pass out on $ext_if proto udp from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT port {500, 4500 }

# IP-in-IP traffic flowing b/w gateways via enc0
pass in on enc0 proto ipencap from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT keep state (if-bound)

# pass traffic on enc0
pass in on enc0 from $TSJ_INT to $TNY_INT keep state (if-bound)
pass out on enc0 from $TNY_INT to $TSJ_INT keep state (if-bound)


===========================

San Jose ipsec.conf:
TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"

ike active esp tunnel from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT \
        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes

ike active esp tunnel from $TSJ_INT to $TNY_INT \
        peer $TNY_EXT \
        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes


San Jose pf.conf:
# macros
int_if = "bge0"
ext_if = "bge1"
icmp_types = "{ echorep, echoreq, timex, unreach }"
#  Define Each Sites int/ext interfaces
TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"


# filter rules
#block in log on { enc0, $ext_if } all
#block out on { enc0, $ext_if } all

pass quick on lo0 all

pass in on $ext_if inet proto icmp from any to $ext_if icmp-type $icmp_types keep state

pass in  on $int_if from $int_if:network to any keep state
pass out on $int_if from any to $int_if:network keep state

pass out on $ext_if proto tcp all modulate state
pass out on $ext_if proto { udp, icmp } all keep state

### VPN ###
# Passing in encrypted traffic from security gateways
pass in on $ext_if proto esp from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT
pass out quick on $ext_if proto esp from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT

# Passing in isakmpd(8) traffic from the security gateways
pass in on $ext_if proto udp from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT port { 500, 4500 }
pass out on $ext_if proto udp from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT port { 500, 4500 }

# IP-in-IP traffic flowing b/w gateways via enc0
pass in on enc0 proto ipencap from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT keep state (if-bound)

# pass traffic on enc0
pass in on enc0 from $TNY_INT to $TSJ_INT keep state (if-bound)
pass out on enc0 from $TSJ_INT to $TNY_INT keep state (if-bound)


-----


i am able to bring the tunnel up, ipsecctl -s all verifies this on both end points, and running isakmpd -DALL=90 show's no errors on either end, and as i mentioned i'm seeing traffic traverse enc0 when i ping one end point's external IP from another.  but when i try to ping san jose's internal network from nyc for example i see nothing on enc0.

i reckon i'm missing something super simple here, but any pointers or tips would be appreciated!

thx!
-pete



From okan at demirmen.com  Tue Mar  9 07:18:47 2010
From: okan at demirmen.com (Okan Demirmen)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 07:18:47 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd ipsec issue
In-Reply-To: <CC0FEDCE-DEE0-4A79-AFD3-23802ABBC75C@nomadlogic.org>
References: <CC0FEDCE-DEE0-4A79-AFD3-23802ABBC75C@nomadlogic.org>
Message-ID: <20100309121847.GE16456@clam.khaoz.org>

On Mon 2010.03.08 at 23:25 -0800, Peter Wright wrote:
> hey all - so i've been banging my head on this one for a bit and figured someone on @nycbug has a similar setup running.
> 
> i have two networks i am trying to connect via a ipsec tunnel using openbsd 4.6.  i have a simple /etc/ipsec.conf up, and a pretty simple pf config as well.  when i have everything up and running, i tcpdump my enc0 interface and see that when i ping one endpoints external interface traffic is flowing via enc0.  yet when i try to ping an ip an end-points internal network i get nothing on enc0 and no ping replies.  here's my setup:

[snip]

> NY ipsec.conf:
> TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
> TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
> TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
> TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"
> 
> ike passive esp tunnel from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT \
>         main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>         quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes
> 
> ike passive esp tunnel from $TNY_INT to $TSJ_INT \
>         peer $TSJ_EXT \
>         main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>         quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes

[snip]

> San Jose ipsec.conf:
> TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
> TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
> TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
> TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"
> 
> ike active esp tunnel from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT \
>         main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>         quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes
> 
> ike active esp tunnel from $TSJ_INT to $TNY_INT \
>         peer $TNY_EXT \
>         main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>         quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes

[snip] 
 
> i am able to bring the tunnel up, ipsecctl -s all verifies this on both end points, and running isakmpd -DALL=90 show's no errors on either end, and as i mentioned i'm seeing traffic traverse enc0 when i ping one end point's external IP from another.  but when i try to ping san jose's internal network from nyc for example i see nothing on enc0.

are you pinging the other side's internal network from the vpn endpoint
itself, or from *behind* it.  if the former, then you'd be missing a
flow (on both sides):

ike esp from egress to <other internal network> peer <peer>

cheers,
okan


From pete at nomadlogic.org  Tue Mar  9 13:15:27 2010
From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Peter Wright)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:15:27 -0800
Subject: [nycbug-talk] openbsd ipsec issue
In-Reply-To: <20100309121847.GE16456@clam.khaoz.org>
References: <CC0FEDCE-DEE0-4A79-AFD3-23802ABBC75C@nomadlogic.org>
	<20100309121847.GE16456@clam.khaoz.org>
Message-ID: <A022B80B-2D68-4CE9-AE82-5D91F720611B@nomadlogic.org>


On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Okan Demirmen wrote:

> On Mon 2010.03.08 at 23:25 -0800, Peter Wright wrote:
>> hey all - so i've been banging my head on this one for a bit and figured someone on @nycbug has a similar setup running.
>> 
>> i have two networks i am trying to connect via a ipsec tunnel using openbsd 4.6.  i have a simple /etc/ipsec.conf up, and a pretty simple pf config as well.  when i have everything up and running, i tcpdump my enc0 interface and see that when i ping one endpoints external interface traffic is flowing via enc0.  yet when i try to ping an ip an end-points internal network i get nothing on enc0 and no ping replies.  here's my setup:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> NY ipsec.conf:
>> TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
>> TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
>> TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
>> TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"
>> 
>> ike passive esp tunnel from $TNY_EXT to $TSJ_EXT \
>>        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>>        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes
>> 
>> ike passive esp tunnel from $TNY_INT to $TSJ_INT \
>>        peer $TSJ_EXT \
>>        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>>        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> San Jose ipsec.conf:
>> TSJ_EXT = "209.170.120.4"
>> TNY_EXT = "209.170.130.2"
>> TSJ_INT = "10.2.0.0/16"
>> TNY_INT = "10.1.0.0/16"
>> 
>> ike active esp tunnel from $TSJ_EXT to $TNY_EXT \
>>        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>>        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes
>> 
>> ike active esp tunnel from $TSJ_INT to $TNY_INT \
>>        peer $TNY_EXT \
>>        main auth hmac-sha1 enc aes group modp1024 \
>>        quick auth hmac-sha2-256 enc aes
> 
> [snip] 
> 
>> i am able to bring the tunnel up, ipsecctl -s all verifies this on both end points, and running isakmpd -DALL=90 show's no errors on either end, and as i mentioned i'm seeing traffic traverse enc0 when i ping one end point's external IP from another.  but when i try to ping san jose's internal network from nyc for example i see nothing on enc0.
> 
> are you pinging the other side's internal network from the vpn endpoint
> itself, or from *behind* it.  if the former, then you'd be missing a
> flow (on both sides):
> 
> ike esp from egress to <other internal network> peer <peer>
> 

thanks okan, that did the trick.  dunno why i missed that - but cheers!

-pete

From isaac at diversaform.com  Sun Mar 14 13:13:07 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:13:07 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] good cross-platform shell notes?
Message-ID: <F150D1AE-5C22-472B-A875-3FAB09CAB51B@diversaform.com>

Hi All,

I'm looking to collect good comprehensive pages regarding cross-platform shell scripting, you know, the gotchas with all the basic utilities between UNIX, BSD, and Linux systems- and some of the common minor shell gotchas.

Does anyone have any URL suggestions?

Usually, when I'm really getting persnickety about portability, I rely on the man pages for various platforms- but this can be extremely time consuming...  For example, grep caret issues:

http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=grep&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.0-RELEASE&format=html
- vs -
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=grep&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=CentOS+Linux%2Fi386+5.4&format=html

--
I'm certain there's plenty of folks out there who manage lots of heterogeneous UNIX/BSD/Linux environments?

One such comparison page I've found is:
http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/DOCUMENTATION/OpenSource/Conceptual/ShellScripting/PortingScriptstoMacOSX/PortingScriptstoMacOSX.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40004268-TP40003517-SW2

Any other good resources out there?  A big-ol' table of notes would rock my world...

Best,
.ike




From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Mar 19 12:31:48 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:31:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
Message-ID: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>

There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to move 
NYC*BUG forward.

I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.

I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we would 
work to provide something of an "open source platform" for various 
projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.

Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . . and I 
look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk list.

As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build out a 
jail box for the base functionality we are looking to provide.

Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.

*	*	*

NYC*BUG's Bazaar

Since we began in December 2003, NYC*BUG sought to be a platform for 
others in the realm of BSD Unix.

That platform entails an array of roles.

It might be entertaining queries on the talk mailing list.  Maybe it's a 
systems administrator looking for a better way of scripting a task.  Or 
a new user having installation problems with a certain network card.  Or 
even a developer seeking new contributers for a software project.

The monthly meetings and biannual conferences allow various projects to 
be explained, users to network, bridges to be built.

More broadly, we have regularly contributed to all the BSD projects, 
looking to strengthen their at-hand resources.

The profits from our conferences are sent to the projects, and we host a 
multitude of services for the community.

But there is another angle in which to approach our role as a technical 
user group.

We have had instances in which individuals launch similarly inclined 
user groups or mailing lists.  They may seek advice or resources, 
particularly since we have maintained a longevity and relevance uncommon 
for techncial user groups.

I think, however, it is time to approach that role with more structure 
and seriousness.

We could easily become a platform for launching related projects to 
aggregate others for them and encourage development by providing a basic 
scaffolding.

BSDTV: A Case in Point

Let us start with a recent example.

Two regular members of NYC*BUG recently approached a member the admin 
group and mentioned the concept of a BSDTV: an online video program 
covering the projects, developers and maybe corporate users of BSD Unix.

While we can not offer a full studio and massive distribution on the 
scale of Viacom, we can provide colocation space in our New York 
Internet cabinet, hardware for a server with a public IP, plus some 
advisement and pointers to other possible directions and resources.

Within a few weeks, the two BSDTV initiators had Plone set up on a 
server, and began uploading various videos to several video-hosting sites.

They can immediately begin to enlist others to their efforts, and gain 
some degree of validation, if needed, in the eyes of the larger 
technical community, by their association with NYC*BUG.

And they have a captive audience of hundreds on the talk and announce 
mailing lists.

Where Do We Stand Now?

I do not want to fully ingest the classic "Cathedral and Bazaar" concept 
from Eric Raymond for a number of reasons.  Rather we can talk about 
providing a full "open source platform" for launching projects related 
to the BSDs.

I use the term "open source" in the basic sense of the term, as it was 
acted upon but not necessarily labeled as such since the beginning of 
electronic computing.

In the Cold War period and often before, computer developers and 
technicians often had a large resource pool and networks from which to 
enlist guidance and involvement from, dependent upon the state of the 
world's current affairs and public expenditures that trickled into 
technology.

That was the mark of the Bell Labs.

But while we are clearly in no position to launch the next Thompson, 
Kernighan or Ritchie, we can provide resources and more to the scores of 
people who regularly are involved with NYC*BUG on some level or another.

No, they will not be inventing the new C or Unix 3.0, but they could 
launch projects beneficial to the BSD community and to the technical 
community beyond.

Inventors in our era are more "assemblers" and do not require blue-sky 
budgets and endless time.  We are essentially enabling assemblers.

We have been fortunate to assist the BSD Certification Group in 
providing colocation space, veteran BSD users for the Subject Matter 
Expert sessions, and much more.

However, we should look at a simple basic framework that eases the 
problems of initiating projects and publicizing them beyond.

Our Bazaar

While the details could be approached as requests are raised, we can 
posit the following resources to any group of people interested in 
initiating a project:

1.  Colocation space, most likely a FreeBSD jail with a public IP or 
maybe a 1U server.

2.  A listing on the NYCBUG.org web site's "projects" page, providing a 
summary of the project, web site and a versioning system's repository 
addresses and contact information.

3.  Space for that web site, maybe a virtual host of .nycbug.org if not 
in the provided jail or server.

4.  Space for a public repository, allowing others to view their commits 
while only providing write access to the participants.

5.  Direction to additional resources and guidance, as most projects 
have been initiated at some point or another in the past.  Or maybe 
there is something happening today.

6.  Some degree of publicity by a short listing on the NYC*BUG home 
page, a mention on our announce list, etc.

7.  A public or private mailing list hosted on NYCBUG.org's mailman.

While each of those benefits may not be immediately realizable, we can 
develop and customize the offerings as the concept gains steam.

And keeping the ideas flowing and open will be encouraged by 
semi-regular updates to NYC*BUG via the talk mailing list and our 
monthly meetings.  The progress will be open for all to discuss, free 
for all to criticize and available for merging, forking and salvaging 
for other directions.

Why Use the NYC*BUG Bazaar?

Certainly, anyone could use SourceForge or their own virtualized host at 
one provider or another to start up the project.

But working with NYC*BUG has some significant benefits.

NYC*BUG contains a large group of people, whether in the monthly 
meetings, on the various mailing lists, attendees for our conference, 
etc., who are often situated in the New York City metropolitan area.

There are extensive contacts for each of the BSD projects, not to 
mention a host of BSD-using and community supporting entities.

Most importantly, NYC*BUG can provide validation to your effort and 
provide a profile among a concentrated group of people.

How Would the Bazaar Work?

Initially, we would request that each project email admin@ or approach 
us at a meeting.

Give us an overview of the direction, what resources may be required, 
and so on.

But in better keeeping with the "open source platform" arena, it is 
logical that any project would present at both our monthly meeting and 
also on the talk mailing list.  In these forums, feedback could be 
provided, similar efforts could be made light of and the general 
plausibility could be assessed.

This would allow other interested individuals to get involved or maybe 
just provide some insight.

The project would then get the resources it needs to launch.

What Types of Projects?

While we started with the BSDTV example, it would be false to use that 
project as a "true" bazaar example, since no two projects will likely be 
similar.

Supported projects might include porting some software or another to the 
BSD port systems.  Working on getting technical documentation for a 
network card from a vendor.  Organizing a series of installfests.  And 
so on.

How about an open sourced computer-based exam software?  While one would 
immediately think of the BSD Certification Group as a beneficiary, other 
community-driven efforts could certainly utilize it.

What about a "meta-port" for ports commonly installed together, like 
Apache, MySQL and PHP.  The sub-group might focus on one of the BSDs 
port systems, then move on to others.  Or they might just contact a 
developer of one of those ports, and see if they can play a role in 
assisting them.

Another idea might be maintaining mirrors for the BSD projects.  What 
about a (small) group of people with a server for each project, with 
some large donated hard drives, with mirrors for each project.  Instead 
of having to use the main OpenBSD mirror for older releases, NYC*BUG 
could provide this service.

The list goes on and on.  It might include heavily technical, 
developer-run porting.  Or it might include more advocacy-focused 
instruction for university and high school students.

Maybe all of these projects spawn out of the bazaar.  Or none of them.

Let the level of interest drive the projects.

There is little critiera for project approval besides being relevant to 
the BSD community at-large, and welcoming the involvement of others, 
with an open approach to conducting the effort.

Conclusion

Becoming a truly dynamic user group requires NYC*BUG to evolve in its 
role.  We are deeply ingrained in and also reflecting of the BSD community.

Take the reins now, initiate a project, discuss with admin and gauge the 
interest of others on talk or at a monthly meeting.  Work through the 
idea, and consider its requirements, plausibility and benefits.

The NYC*BUG bazaar concept allows us to provide a real framework for 
others to initiate related projects that may not be in the immediate 
scope of our regular activities.

Our bazaar could be the beginning of a dynamic structure for future 
projects, and potentially provide direction for the multitude of 
assorted projects that today only reside in the minds of NYC*BUG and its 
perpheries.


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Mar 19 14:03:02 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:03:02 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <4BA3BC56.8060608@ceetonetechnology.com>

George Rosamond wrote:
> There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to move 
> NYC*BUG forward.
> 
> I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.
> 
> I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we would 
> work to provide something of an "open source platform" for various 
> projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.
> 
> Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . . and I 
> look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk list.
> 
> As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build out a 
> jail box for the base functionality we are looking to provide.

BTW. . . Pilosoft just gave me 4 x 300 gig IDE drives. . . so the box 
should be up for next week at some point.

But please reply to the previous email for this thread. . . inline.

And thanks to the quick flurry of offline emails in reply to the query. 
. . I received emails before my post showed up in my inbox :)

> 
> Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.
> 
> *    *    *
> 
> NYC*BUG's Bazaar
> 
> Since we began in December 2003, NYC*BUG sought to be a platform for 
> others in the realm of BSD Unix.
> 
> That platform entails an array of roles.
> 
> It might be entertaining queries on the talk mailing list.  Maybe it's a 
> systems administrator looking for a better way of scripting a task.  Or 
> a new user having installation problems with a certain network card.  Or 
> even a developer seeking new contributers for a software project.
> 
> The monthly meetings and biannual conferences allow various projects to 
> be explained, users to network, bridges to be built.
> 
> More broadly, we have regularly contributed to all the BSD projects, 
> looking to strengthen their at-hand resources.
> 
> The profits from our conferences are sent to the projects, and we host a 
> multitude of services for the community.
> 
> But there is another angle in which to approach our role as a technical 
> user group.
> 
> We have had instances in which individuals launch similarly inclined 
> user groups or mailing lists.  They may seek advice or resources, 
> particularly since we have maintained a longevity and relevance uncommon 
> for techncial user groups.
> 
> I think, however, it is time to approach that role with more structure 
> and seriousness.
> 
> We could easily become a platform for launching related projects to 
> aggregate others for them and encourage development by providing a basic 
> scaffolding.
> 
> BSDTV: A Case in Point
> 
> Let us start with a recent example.
> 
> Two regular members of NYC*BUG recently approached a member the admin 
> group and mentioned the concept of a BSDTV: an online video program 
> covering the projects, developers and maybe corporate users of BSD Unix.
> 
> While we can not offer a full studio and massive distribution on the 
> scale of Viacom, we can provide colocation space in our New York 
> Internet cabinet, hardware for a server with a public IP, plus some 
> advisement and pointers to other possible directions and resources.
> 
> Within a few weeks, the two BSDTV initiators had Plone set up on a 
> server, and began uploading various videos to several video-hosting sites.
> 
> They can immediately begin to enlist others to their efforts, and gain 
> some degree of validation, if needed, in the eyes of the larger 
> technical community, by their association with NYC*BUG.
> 
> And they have a captive audience of hundreds on the talk and announce 
> mailing lists.
> 
> Where Do We Stand Now?
> 
> I do not want to fully ingest the classic "Cathedral and Bazaar" concept 
> from Eric Raymond for a number of reasons.  Rather we can talk about 
> providing a full "open source platform" for launching projects related 
> to the BSDs.
> 
> I use the term "open source" in the basic sense of the term, as it was 
> acted upon but not necessarily labeled as such since the beginning of 
> electronic computing.
> 
> In the Cold War period and often before, computer developers and 
> technicians often had a large resource pool and networks from which to 
> enlist guidance and involvement from, dependent upon the state of the 
> world's current affairs and public expenditures that trickled into 
> technology.
> 
> That was the mark of the Bell Labs.
> 
> But while we are clearly in no position to launch the next Thompson, 
> Kernighan or Ritchie, we can provide resources and more to the scores of 
> people who regularly are involved with NYC*BUG on some level or another.
> 
> No, they will not be inventing the new C or Unix 3.0, but they could 
> launch projects beneficial to the BSD community and to the technical 
> community beyond.
> 
> Inventors in our era are more "assemblers" and do not require blue-sky 
> budgets and endless time.  We are essentially enabling assemblers.
> 
> We have been fortunate to assist the BSD Certification Group in 
> providing colocation space, veteran BSD users for the Subject Matter 
> Expert sessions, and much more.
> 
> However, we should look at a simple basic framework that eases the 
> problems of initiating projects and publicizing them beyond.
> 
> Our Bazaar
> 
> While the details could be approached as requests are raised, we can 
> posit the following resources to any group of people interested in 
> initiating a project:
> 
> 1.  Colocation space, most likely a FreeBSD jail with a public IP or 
> maybe a 1U server.
> 
> 2.  A listing on the NYCBUG.org web site's "projects" page, providing a 
> summary of the project, web site and a versioning system's repository 
> addresses and contact information.
> 
> 3.  Space for that web site, maybe a virtual host of .nycbug.org if not 
> in the provided jail or server.
> 
> 4.  Space for a public repository, allowing others to view their commits 
> while only providing write access to the participants.
> 
> 5.  Direction to additional resources and guidance, as most projects 
> have been initiated at some point or another in the past.  Or maybe 
> there is something happening today.
> 
> 6.  Some degree of publicity by a short listing on the NYC*BUG home 
> page, a mention on our announce list, etc.
> 
> 7.  A public or private mailing list hosted on NYCBUG.org's mailman.
> 
> While each of those benefits may not be immediately realizable, we can 
> develop and customize the offerings as the concept gains steam.
> 
> And keeping the ideas flowing and open will be encouraged by 
> semi-regular updates to NYC*BUG via the talk mailing list and our 
> monthly meetings.  The progress will be open for all to discuss, free 
> for all to criticize and available for merging, forking and salvaging 
> for other directions.
> 
> Why Use the NYC*BUG Bazaar?
> 
> Certainly, anyone could use SourceForge or their own virtualized host at 
> one provider or another to start up the project.
> 
> But working with NYC*BUG has some significant benefits.
> 
> NYC*BUG contains a large group of people, whether in the monthly 
> meetings, on the various mailing lists, attendees for our conference, 
> etc., who are often situated in the New York City metropolitan area.
> 
> There are extensive contacts for each of the BSD projects, not to 
> mention a host of BSD-using and community supporting entities.
> 
> Most importantly, NYC*BUG can provide validation to your effort and 
> provide a profile among a concentrated group of people.
> 
> How Would the Bazaar Work?
> 
> Initially, we would request that each project email admin@ or approach 
> us at a meeting.
> 
> Give us an overview of the direction, what resources may be required, 
> and so on.
> 
> But in better keeeping with the "open source platform" arena, it is 
> logical that any project would present at both our monthly meeting and 
> also on the talk mailing list.  In these forums, feedback could be 
> provided, similar efforts could be made light of and the general 
> plausibility could be assessed.
> 
> This would allow other interested individuals to get involved or maybe 
> just provide some insight.
> 
> The project would then get the resources it needs to launch.
> 
> What Types of Projects?
> 
> While we started with the BSDTV example, it would be false to use that 
> project as a "true" bazaar example, since no two projects will likely be 
> similar.
> 
> Supported projects might include porting some software or another to the 
> BSD port systems.  Working on getting technical documentation for a 
> network card from a vendor.  Organizing a series of installfests.  And 
> so on.
> 
> How about an open sourced computer-based exam software?  While one would 
> immediately think of the BSD Certification Group as a beneficiary, other 
> community-driven efforts could certainly utilize it.
> 
> What about a "meta-port" for ports commonly installed together, like 
> Apache, MySQL and PHP.  The sub-group might focus on one of the BSDs 
> port systems, then move on to others.  Or they might just contact a 
> developer of one of those ports, and see if they can play a role in 
> assisting them.
> 
> Another idea might be maintaining mirrors for the BSD projects.  What 
> about a (small) group of people with a server for each project, with 
> some large donated hard drives, with mirrors for each project.  Instead 
> of having to use the main OpenBSD mirror for older releases, NYC*BUG 
> could provide this service.
> 
> The list goes on and on.  It might include heavily technical, 
> developer-run porting.  Or it might include more advocacy-focused 
> instruction for university and high school students.
> 
> Maybe all of these projects spawn out of the bazaar.  Or none of them.
> 
> Let the level of interest drive the projects.
> 
> There is little critiera for project approval besides being relevant to 
> the BSD community at-large, and welcoming the involvement of others, 
> with an open approach to conducting the effort.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> Becoming a truly dynamic user group requires NYC*BUG to evolve in its 
> role.  We are deeply ingrained in and also reflecting of the BSD community.
> 
> Take the reins now, initiate a project, discuss with admin and gauge the 
> interest of others on talk or at a monthly meeting.  Work through the 
> idea, and consider its requirements, plausibility and benefits.
> 
> The NYC*BUG bazaar concept allows us to provide a real framework for 
> others to initiate related projects that may not be in the immediate 
> scope of our regular activities.
> 
> Our bazaar could be the beginning of a dynamic structure for future 
> projects, and potentially provide direction for the multitude of 
> assorted projects that today only reside in the minds of NYC*BUG and its 
> perpheries.



From jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net  Fri Mar 19 16:00:42 2010
From: jpb at sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net (Jim B.)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:00:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>

* George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> [2010-03-19 12:37]:
> There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to move 
> NYC*BUG forward.
> 
> I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.
> 
> I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we would 
> work to provide something of an "open source platform" for various 
> projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.
> 
> Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . . and I 
> look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk list.
> 
> As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build out a 
> jail box for the base functionality we are looking to provide.
> 
> Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.
> 
> *	*	*


I think this is a great idea, and one that will benefit everyone in the long run.
Even if you don't have a project idea today, you might think up something tomorrow.

Having a resource like this is a perfect for trying things out and seeing
what works, without having to spend a small fortune of your own money doing it.

This is what's great about NYCBUG- out front, trying things out, seeing what works.

Kudos George! And many thanks to the rest of the admin team.

Jim B.



From matt at atopia.net  Mon Mar 22 00:31:58 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 04:31:58 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT: Hosted billing and support solutions?
Message-ID: <111526969-1269232320-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679191815-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hi all, 

Many of you run hosting companies that consist of webhosting or dedicated server hosting, so I thought asking on here might give me some good responses.

My company uses an in house built billing system which links up with authorize.net but isn't automatic, a customer support portal that's medicore at best, and RT in the background for support tickets. Its all self hosted and getting annoying to maintain. 

Can anyone recommend a good hosted all in one service that provides a good customer interface, support ticketing system, billing system with authorize.net integration, and more?  Obviously since it would be hosted I assume it would be a monthly price. I would love to be able to easily integrate with our website but that isn't required. 

Thanks for any recommendations!


From isaac at diversaform.com  Mon Mar 22 09:53:49 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:53:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
Message-ID: <29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>

On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Jim B. wrote:

> * George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> [2010-03-19 12:37]:
>> There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to move 
>> NYC*BUG forward.
>> 
>> I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.
>> 
>> I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we would 
>> work to provide something of an "open source platform" for various 
>> projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.
>> 
>> Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . . and I 
>> look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk list.
>> 
>> As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build out a 
>> jail box for the base functionality we are looking to provide.
>> 
>> Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.
>> 
>> *	*	*
> 
> 
> I think this is a great idea, and one that will benefit everyone in the long run.
> Even if you don't have a project idea today, you might think up something tomorrow.
> 
> Having a resource like this is a perfect for trying things out and seeing
> what works, without having to spend a small fortune of your own money doing it.
> 
> This is what's great about NYCBUG- out front, trying things out, seeing what works.
> 
> Kudos George! And many thanks to the rest of the admin team.
> 
> Jim B.

I agree with Jim's sentiment- especially insomuch as the idea doesn't put pressure on things to *have* to succeed, or to *have* to have encumbering formality wrapped around them- cool things can emerge.

--
With that, I for one have a small idea- git/cvs repository(ies)?  I for one have a ton of collected shell/utility scripts collected/hacked-on over years- and I'd love to dump them somewhere quazi-communal?  Heck, I even have a ton of collected configs for various things that make my life easier- and I'd love to share it (esp. in some place where it may get feedback/better?)
I'm thinking of some repo with some idea of user directories- (gitweb looks pretty simple to setup and maintain- though I've only played with it so far...)

Rocket-
.ike




From lists at stringsutils.com  Mon Mar 22 10:59:04 2010
From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:59:04 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1269269944.189496.3600.1000@shelca>

George Rosamond writes:

> Our Bazaar
> 1.  Colocation space
> 2.  A listing on the NYCBUG.org web site's "projects" page
> 3.  Space for that web site
> 4.  Space for a public repository
> 5.  Direction to additional resources 
> 6.  Some degree of publicity 
> 7.  A public or private mailing list hosted on NYCBUG.org's mailman.

Great idea.
I think one differentiator for people who opt to use our Bazaar is the 
possibility of been able to meet other people who may be interested working 
on the project. We can also have announcements on the monthly meetings about 
new projects and project status for projects hosted with NYCBUG.


From skreuzer at exit2shell.com  Tue Mar 23 09:25:57 2010
From: skreuzer at exit2shell.com (Steven Kreuzer)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:25:57 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Upcoming Meeting Ideas
Message-ID: <7CB0F5A1-90EE-4416-AEC1-F85824E1FC95@exit2shell.com>

I have a few ideas for potential topics mainly revolving around getting more people involved in open source development and I would like to see if anyone would be interesting in volunteering to speak at an upcoming meeting. If you are interested in giving a talk please email admin at nycbug.org and we can schedule it. 

* How to contribute to... - If we could find 3 or 4 people who are involved in an open source project, they could give 10 or 15 minutes presentations on how someone could contribute to their project. How the development model works, what are some bugs no one has had any time to squash, what are some simple features that could be added. This could be a great opportunity for you to pitch your project to NYCBUG members.

* Just enough C - The idea of this talk would be to give people with little to no experience with programming enough knowledge of C so they can get their feet wet squashing bugs or adding features.

* Debugging - gdb is a valuable tool for both developers and sysadmins. I strongly feel that an introduction to debugging a misbehaving application would be very well received.

* Those new fangled languages - Have you been writing applications using the various languages that have been gaining in popularity lately? (Erlang, Haskell, Go)
What attracted you to it? What do you find interesting about them? What issues do they address that other languages haven't? When is using X appropriate more then using the more traditional Y?

Also, feel free to propose meeting topics as well, or help me fine tune some of the topics I proposed.

Of course, we are always looking for talks on interesting things. If none of the ones I proposed pop out at to you and you would like to give a talk on something else,
just get in touch.

Thanks

--
Steven Kreuzer
http://www.exit2shell.com/~skreuzer



From lists at stringsutils.com  Tue Mar 23 13:31:13 2010
From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:31:13 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Upcoming Meeting Ideas
References: <7CB0F5A1-90EE-4416-AEC1-F85824E1FC95@exit2shell.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1269365473.712577.3600.1000@shelca>

Steven Kreuzer writes:

> Also, feel free to propose meeting topics as well, or help me fine tune some of the topics I proposed.

Ports crash course.
It would be great if anyone could give a brief intro on how to create ports. 
I am going over the docs and there is a lot to read. Sure using an existing 
port as a template helps, but it  sure would be nice to have someone go over 
the basics.


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 19:57:28 2010
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 19:57:28 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>

(top post)
Wow thanks to admin. The idea of having meetings and project
incubation tools together is awesome.

I think gitweb fits nicely into the model as a tool. Actually, I'm not
up on all the names of the various git + web projects out there, but
one of those git hosting situations...

-jesse

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Isaac Levy <isaac at diversaform.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Jim B. wrote:
>
>> * George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> [2010-03-19 12:37]:
>>> There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to move
>>> NYC*BUG forward.
>>>
>>> I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.
>>>
>>> I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we would
>>> work to provide something of an "open source platform" for various
>>> projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.
>>>
>>> Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . . and I
>>> look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk list.
>>>
>>> As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build out a
>>> jail box for the base functionality we are looking to provide.
>>>
>>> Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.
>>>
>>> * ? ?* ? ? ? *
>>
>>
>> I think this is a great idea, and one that will benefit everyone in the long run.
>> Even if you don't have a project idea today, you might think up something tomorrow.
>>
>> Having a resource like this is a perfect for trying things out and seeing
>> what works, without having to spend a small fortune of your own money doing it.
>>
>> This is what's great about NYCBUG- out front, trying things out, seeing what works.
>>
>> Kudos George! And many thanks to the rest of the admin team.
>>
>> Jim B.
>
> I agree with Jim's sentiment- especially insomuch as the idea doesn't put pressure on things to *have* to succeed, or to *have* to have encumbering formality wrapped around them- cool things can emerge.
>
> --
> With that, I for one have a small idea- git/cvs repository(ies)? ?I for one have a ton of collected shell/utility scripts collected/hacked-on over years- and I'd love to dump them somewhere quazi-communal? ?Heck, I even have a ton of collected configs for various things that make my life easier- and I'd love to share it (esp. in some place where it may get feedback/better?)
> I'm thinking of some repo with some idea of user directories- (gitweb looks pretty simple to setup and maintain- though I've only played with it so far...)
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Tue Mar 23 20:12:56 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:12:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <4BA95908.5020109@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 03/22/10 09:53, Isaac Levy wrote:
> On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Jim B. wrote:
>
>>> There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to
>>> move NYC*BUG forward.
>>>
>>> I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.
>>>
>>> I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we
>>> would work to provide something of an "open source platform" for
>>> various projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.
>>>
>>> Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . .
>>> and I look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk
>>> list.
>>>
>>> As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build
>>> out a jail box for the base functionality we are looking to
>>> provide.
>>>
>>> Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.
>>>
>>> *	*	*
>>
>>
>> I think this is a great idea, and one that will benefit everyone in
>> the long run. Even if you don't have a project idea today, you
>> might think up something tomorrow.
>>
>> Having a resource like this is a perfect for trying things out and
>> seeing what works, without having to spend a small fortune of your
>> own money doing it.
>>
>> This is what's great about NYCBUG- out front, trying things out,
>> seeing what works.
>>
>> Kudos George! And many thanks to the rest of the admin team.
>>
>> Jim B.
>
> I agree with Jim's sentiment- especially insomuch as the idea doesn't
> put pressure on things to *have* to succeed, or to *have* to have
> encumbering formality wrapped around them- cool things can emerge.
>

Very valid point. . . people come up with ideas. . . within informal 
gatherings most often.

Propose the idea, take input from the list or a meeting, and go for it.

NYCBUG should *really* reflect what people want to be doing, which often 
means outside of the scope of work :)

> -- With that, I for one have a small idea- git/cvs repository(ies)?
> I for one have a ton of collected shell/utility scripts
> collected/hacked-on over years- and I'd love to dump them somewhere
> quazi-communal?  Heck, I even have a ton of collected configs for
> various things that make my life easier- and I'd love to share it
> (esp. in some place where it may get feedback/better?) I'm thinking
> of some repo with some idea of user directories- (gitweb looks pretty
> simple to setup and maintain- though I've only played with it so
> far...)

Not ignoring JC's comments. . . just bringing the thread back to form. .
. :)

I think this is a cool idea.

There's lots of "stupid" little things that would fit in that 
repository. . beautifully.

Who *doesn't* have submissions for it?

FYI. . . the box that will host the jails is still on its way to the 
colo. . . it's a long four blocks. . . but we'll let you know when it's 
up. (all me ike. . . )

g


From spork at bway.net  Tue Mar 23 20:45:26 2010
From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:45:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Jesse Callaway wrote:

> (top post)
> Wow thanks to admin. The idea of having meetings and project
> incubation tools together is awesome.
>
> I think gitweb fits nicely into the model as a tool. Actually, I'm not
> up on all the names of the various git + web projects out there, but
> one of those git hosting situations...

I don't know if such a thing exists, but for Ike's idea of little scripts 
and/or "scriplets", it would be nice to have both a repository and a 
forum-like commenting system linked to the code.  That would allow folks 
to post small changes/additions for review by the community, or for some 
more generic scripts or functions, add some explanation or examples of 
usage.  Sadly, none of the (dated) web-accessible code repositories I know 
of incorporate such a thing.

C

> -jesse
>
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Isaac Levy <isaac at diversaform.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Jim B. wrote:
>>
>>> * George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com> [2010-03-19 12:37]:
>>>> There have been various on and off-line discussions about how to move
>>>> NYC*BUG forward.
>>>>
>>>> I wrote up this doc recently as an overview to a new approach.
>>>>
>>>> I alluded to some of the ideas at the last meeting. . . that we would
>>>> work to provide something of an "open source platform" for various
>>>> projects spawned out of NYC*BUG.
>>>>
>>>> Various people on admin@ and off it have looked at the doc. . . and I
>>>> look forward to opening up this discussion to the talk list.
>>>>
>>>> As a quick operational note, we need 3 large IDE drives to build out a
>>>> jail box for the base functionality we are looking to provide.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, read on, and let the discussion begin.
>>>>
>>>> * ? ?* ? ? ? *
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this is a great idea, and one that will benefit everyone in the long run.
>>> Even if you don't have a project idea today, you might think up something tomorrow.
>>>
>>> Having a resource like this is a perfect for trying things out and seeing
>>> what works, without having to spend a small fortune of your own money doing it.
>>>
>>> This is what's great about NYCBUG- out front, trying things out, seeing what works.
>>>
>>> Kudos George! And many thanks to the rest of the admin team.
>>>
>>> Jim B.
>>
>> I agree with Jim's sentiment- especially insomuch as the idea doesn't put pressure on things to *have* to succeed, or to *have* to have encumbering formality wrapped around them- cool things can emerge.
>>
>> --
>> With that, I for one have a small idea- git/cvs repository(ies)? ?I for one have a ton of collected shell/utility scripts collected/hacked-on over years- and I'd love to dump them somewhere quazi-communal? ?Heck, I even have a ton of collected configs for various things that make my life easier- and I'd love to share it (esp. in some place where it may get feedback/better?)
>> I'm thinking of some repo with some idea of user directories- (gitweb looks pretty simple to setup and maintain- though I've only played with it so far...)
>>
>> Rocket-
>> .ike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

From matt at atopia.net  Wed Mar 24 00:00:21 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:00:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>

Hi folks,

So I've been thinking - more and more companies (Amazon, Rackspace, 
Terremark, etc.) are moving to cloud technologies.  Some are even moving 
to cloud technologies combined with dedicated server infrastructure.  But 
for the most part, it does seem a lot easier to "spin up" a few ready to 
go instances (like amazon EC2) and launch a production web application.

There's still a lot to do: MySQL is still heavily used, and requires a lot 
of tuning once performance needs grow.  However, databases like MongoDB, 
SimpleDB, etc. are quickly gaining market share.

So I wonder: will there be a time when those who have an idea simply spin 
up some ready to go cloud servers, point and click the necessary security 
they'd like and setup they'd like, and run with it?  At that point, would 
the only positions remaining be developers/programmers?

Just my thought for the day.


From slynch2112 at me.com  Wed Mar 24 02:05:58 2010
From: slynch2112 at me.com (Siobhan Lynch)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 02:05:58 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the
	sysadmin/systems	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4BA9ABC6.3070604@me.com>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> So I've been thinking - more and more companies (Amazon, Rackspace,
> Terremark, etc.) are moving to cloud technologies.  Some are even moving
> to cloud technologies combined with dedicated server infrastructure. 
> But for the most part, it does seem a lot easier to "spin up" a few
> ready to go instances (like amazon EC2) and launch a production web
> application.
> 
> There's still a lot to do: MySQL is still heavily used, and requires a
> lot of tuning once performance needs grow.  However, databases like
> MongoDB, SimpleDB, etc. are quickly gaining market share.
> 
> So I wonder: will there be a time when those who have an idea simply
> spin up some ready to go cloud servers, point and click the necessary
> security they'd like and setup they'd like, and run with it?  At that
> point, would the only positions remaining be developers/programmers?
> 
> Just my thought for the day.


There will always be those applications that the cloud isn;t apprpriate
for - for example, what my company does now (email migration) - we found
that the cloud could not be as reliable and scalable as doing i
ourselves (costwise).

So I think that for some, yes, but I don;t think sysadmins (especially
good ones) will be out of jobs.

-Trish



> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From akosela at andykosela.com  Wed Mar 24 08:08:39 2010
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:08:39 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the
	sysadmin/systems	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <4BA9ABC6.3070604@me.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<4BA9ABC6.3070604@me.com>
Message-ID: <4baa00c7.zJbVON89Uw1iF6sU%akosela@andykosela.com>

Siobhan Lynch <slynch2112 at me.com> wrote:

> Matt Juszczak wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > So I've been thinking - more and more companies (Amazon, Rackspace,
> > Terremark, etc.) are moving to cloud technologies.  Some are even moving
> > to cloud technologies combined with dedicated server infrastructure. 
> > But for the most part, it does seem a lot easier to "spin up" a few
> > ready to go instances (like amazon EC2) and launch a production web
> > application.
> > 
> > There's still a lot to do: MySQL is still heavily used, and requires a
> > lot of tuning once performance needs grow.  However, databases like
> > MongoDB, SimpleDB, etc. are quickly gaining market share.
> > 
> > So I wonder: will there be a time when those who have an idea simply
> > spin up some ready to go cloud servers, point and click the necessary
> > security they'd like and setup they'd like, and run with it?  At that
> > point, would the only positions remaining be developers/programmers?
> > 
> > Just my thought for the day.
>
>
> There will always be those applications that the cloud isn;t apprpriate
> for - for example, what my company does now (email migration) - we found
> that the cloud could not be as reliable and scalable as doing i
> ourselves (costwise).
>
> So I think that for some, yes, but I don;t think sysadmins (especially
> good ones) will be out of jobs.

Yes, exactly.  I can't quite imagine large corporations not having their
own server infrastructure.  Trust me -- there will always be a job for a
sysadmin :)  Plus remember that some data can't be outsourced for some
specific reason -- imagine military, defence or banking industry.

--
Andy Kosela
akosela at andykosela.com


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Wed Mar 24 11:12:48 2010
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:12:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:

> So I wonder: will there be a time when those who have an idea simply spin up
> some ready to go cloud servers, point and click the necessary security
> they'd like and setup they'd like, and run with it? ?At that point, would
> the only positions remaining be developers/programmers?

You may be underestimating the experience and judgement required to
enact effective security and tuning policies, even if (especially if?)
the interface is point-and-click.

That kind of environment will make a good sysadmin even more valuable,
because you have to be able to "see through the cloud" to avoid the
gotchas that could take down or corrupt your systems. It's a different
set of skills, perhaps, but they are still skills.

On a related note, imagine the chaos that will ensue when one of the
big cloud providers discovers that a disgruntled sysadmin rooted
millions of systems on his way out the door. Or can't that happen?


From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com  Wed Mar 24 11:33:54 2010
From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:33:54 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BAA30E2.6050606@belovedarctos.com>

Chris Snyder wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Matt Juszczak<matt at atopia.net>  wrote:
>    
> That kind of environment will make a good sysadmin even more valuable,
> because you have to be able to "see through the cloud" to avoid the
> gotchas that could take down or corrupt your systems. It's a different
> set of skills, perhaps, but they are still skills.
>    
I agree.  People will be scouting the same sysadmin resumes but will 
look for those that include cloud computing specialization/experience.  
I think this just gets chalked up with other specializations such as 
security, web, database, filesystem, and grid computing.

Segway that to another thread, maybe we can use these sysadmin schools 
as an organizational structure for the script repository.

-Bjorn


From isaac at diversaform.com  Wed Mar 24 11:54:21 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:54:21 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
Message-ID: <51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>

Awesome,

Down to some brass tacks:

On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:45 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Jesse Callaway wrote:
> 
>> I think gitweb fits nicely into the model as a tool. Actually, I'm not
>> up on all the names of the various git + web projects out there, but
>> one of those git hosting situations...
> 
> I don't know if such a thing exists, but for Ike's idea of little scripts and/or "scriplets", it would be nice to have both a repository and a forum-like commenting system linked to the code.  That would allow folks to post small changes/additions for review by the community, or for some more generic scripts or functions, add some explanation or examples of usage.  Sadly, none of the (dated) web-accessible code repositories I know of incorporate such a thing.

Ok- this is a liked idea by more than a few...

Down to brass tacks, does anyone on list object to using Git?  So far my short experiences with it are very positive- it's *easy* and intuitive IMHO.

Any yelps for cvs or other tools?
Should people need shell access (repo's in home directories), or just access via git/cvs?

Rocket-
.ike




From isaac at diversaform.com  Wed Mar 24 11:55:22 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:55:22 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>

Hey All,

Hrm, regarding visions of a fairly "dystopian future for sysadmins in the cloud",

On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Chris Snyder wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> 
>> So I wonder: will there be a time when those who have an idea simply spin up
>> some ready to go cloud servers, point and click the necessary security
>> they'd like and setup they'd like, and run with it?  At that point, would
>> the only positions remaining be developers/programmers?
> 
> You may be underestimating the experience and judgement required to
> enact effective security and tuning policies, even if (especially if?)
> the interface is point-and-click.
> 
> That kind of environment will make a good sysadmin even more valuable,
> because you have to be able to "see through the cloud" to avoid the
> gotchas that could take down or corrupt your systems. It's a different
> set of skills, perhaps, but they are still skills.
> 
> On a related note, imagine the chaos that will ensue when one of the
> big cloud providers discovers that a disgruntled sysadmin rooted
> millions of systems on his way out the door. Or can't that happen?

Good thoughts in this thread, I'll toss in one other angle:

  computational resource hype vs. reality

(Reminder for those who don't know me, I was a partner running a Jail-based Virtual Private Server hosting company, long before anyone called it a cloud...)

In the last year, I've engaged 'the cloud' in 2 variants:

---------------------
COMPUTATIONAL CLUSTER
(grid computing for data crunching application)
I performed a fairly exhaustive cost comparison, in an attempt to move our application from racks of servers over to Amazon's EC2, and though I can't share specifics, (company property), I can share the outcome:

+ Co-Located Servers in NJ, 32 servers per rack, many sata disks, (power constraints govern density)
vs.
+ Using Equivalent Amazon EC2 instances over 1 year, with instances 'turned on' 15% of the time, (also with a penalty of taking about 1hr to turn-up our app on 32 machines)

OUTCOME: Amazon EC2 was just over 3x the price, with 15% uptime.

(this doesn't even *touch* the amount of application changes/work which would have to be done to mitigate the risks of putting the company data into 'the cloud' within acceptable tolerances for the business)

----------------------------
WEB APPLICATION 'OFFLOADING'
(offloading file-upload-download/image/storage to EC2)
In a preliminary test of EC2 for serving up web content, the servers simply performed sub-optimally- both for serving web content, and taking files (via http and our apps).  We geographically distributed nodes, tuned the servers, as well as maxing out the a-la-carte server options- and they simply didn't perform anywhere close to our then-paltry web application server infrastructure.
When engaging Amazon on the issue, because our use was such a minor profit for them, their support had nothing to offer us to attempt to help- we were on our own, and even more constrained than dropping our own boxes.

OUTCOME: The www bandwidth did not come close to meeting expectations, and the servers themselves under-performed the sold specs, (esp. in comparison to actual hardware).

--
Extremely disappointing in both cases, and to bring it back to this thread; even in the context of better 'Enterprise' cloud offerings, shared infrastructure will always have it's place- but I strongly believe it will never 'take over' or meet the expectations generated by the hype.

With that, just from a reality check based on computational needs, I don't believe we'll all 'become developer/programmers' anytime soon- (or AI robots would be running entire datacenters by now, at the least :)

my .02?

Best,
.ike




From max at neuropunks.org  Wed Mar 24 11:58:32 2010
From: max at neuropunks.org (Max Gribov)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:58:32 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the
	sysadmin/systems	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4BAA36A8.4070707@neuropunks.org>

On 03/24/2010 12:00 AM, Matt Juszczak wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> So I've been thinking - more and more companies (Amazon, Rackspace, 
> Terremark, etc.) are moving to cloud technologies.  Some are even 
> moving to cloud technologies combined with dedicated server 
> infrastructure.  But for the most part, it does seem a lot easier to 
> "spin up" a few ready to go instances (like amazon EC2) and launch a 
> production web application.


Check out RightScale, get a free demo from them, personally i was very 
impressed how they harnessed that autoscale promise of the cloud.

The paradigm there is that you shift away from "every server is 
important" concept.
You select some images provided by them, like a webserver with nginx, 
then say "when all webservers load is over 20, create 50 more, when it 
drops, remove them".
Its not important if those webservers are tuned, you simply make more as 
you need.

That said, architecture solutions will always be in demand.
You may not need to go out to the colo to replace some RAM (unless you 
work for amazon/rackspace of course), but you do need to come up with 
those metrics when to scale up/down your infrastructure, whether to use 
master-master or master-slave replication, etc.
Cloud, like any large scale custom deployment, will require you to write 
automation tools, maybe by using the amazon api or, in case of 
rightscale, shell scripts which define how a new machine is brought 
online (install apache, svn export the codebase, create config files, etc)

I dont work for rightscale or even use them, but srsly, get a demo from 
them. Its pretty awesome what they've done.

>
> There's still a lot to do: MySQL is still heavily used, and requires a 
> lot of tuning once performance needs grow.  However, databases like 
> MongoDB, SimpleDB, etc. are quickly gaining market share.

rdbms != nosql
And mysql tuning isnt that much of a black art, there are plenty guides 
available, so even when you use the cloud, you simply use your tuned my.cnf

>
> So I wonder: will there be a time when those who have an idea simply 
> spin up some ready to go cloud servers, point and click the necessary 
> security they'd like and setup they'd like, and run with it?  At that 
> point, would the only positions remaining be developers/programmers?

You will always have institutions which do not want to outsource 
hosting, just like now not every company uses managed hosting/leased 
servers.
Some of them will probably set up their own clouds, so thinking about 
machines in disposable/utilitarian manner with focus on quick large 
scale management is definitely a good new skill for a sysadmin.
Programming is more fun that sysadmining anyway : P


>
> Just my thought for the day.
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk



From isaac at diversaform.com  Wed Mar 24 12:09:09 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:09:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the
	sysadmin/systems	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <4BAA36A8.4070707@neuropunks.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<4BAA36A8.4070707@neuropunks.org>
Message-ID: <45061A42-144B-4D49-911C-0179D9CFCCA6@diversaform.com>

On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Max Gribov wrote:

> Programming is more fun that sysadmining anyway : P

Wait, there's a difference?  ;P

Rocket-
.ike




From matt at atopia.net  Wed Mar 24 19:45:42 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:45:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>

Some good articles folks:

http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/10/your-cloud-needs-a-sys-admin.html

versus:

http://www.cio.com/article/571913/Cloud_and_The_Death_of_the_Sysadmin


From lists at stringsutils.com  Wed Mar 24 23:04:35 2010
From: lists at stringsutils.com (Francisco Reyes)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 23:04:35 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>

Isaac Levy writes:

> Down to brass tacks, does anyone on list object to using Git?

No objection, but was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on Mercurial..
Found this Git vs Mercurial comparison.

http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/git-vs-mercurial
Both are able tools with Pros and Cons.
The one thing I have seen from the little I have looked at Mercurial, it 
likely will be easier to learn for someone coming from CVS or Subversion.
>From what I have read it seems GIT would have a higher learning curve for a 
CVS/Subersvion user.

> Any yelps for cvs or other tools?

For all the fervor/fanaticism other tools get I find CVS still gets the job 
done for small in-house projects. However, for larger projects I can see how 
CVS may have limitations that other tools have addressed.



From akosela at andykosela.com  Thu Mar 25 03:20:19 2010
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:20:19 +0100
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
Message-ID: <3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Francisco Reyes <lists at stringsutils.com> wrote:

> For all the fervor/fanaticism other tools get I find CVS still gets the job
> done for small in-house projects.

I second that.  Even for medium sized projects CVS still rocks.  Look
how many years FreeBSD project survived with that.


From jhb at freebsd.org  Thu Mar 25 08:09:30 2010
From: jhb at freebsd.org (John Baldwin)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:09:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003250809.30262.jhb@freebsd.org>

On Thursday 25 March 2010 3:20:19 am Andy Kosela wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Francisco Reyes <lists at stringsutils.com> wrote:
> 
> > For all the fervor/fanaticism other tools get I find CVS still gets the job
> > done for small in-house projects.
> 
> I second that.  Even for medium sized projects CVS still rocks.  Look
> how many years FreeBSD project survived with that.

FreeBSD was helped by the fact that we also have a p4 depot setup to do side
branches in (I do all my non-trivial feature branches in p4).  I still use
CVS for small things myself.  If you want to offer a centralized SCM host I
would offer svn though (even if it is a bit of a pig performance-wise) as
changesets are too useful to pass up compared to CVS for new projects IMO.

I can't offer any useful opinion on git vs hg.

-- 
John Baldwin


From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar 25 09:26:30 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:26:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>

On Mar 24, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

> Some good articles folks:
> 
> http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/10/your-cloud-needs-a-sys-admin.html
> 
> versus:
> 
> http://www.cio.com/article/571913/Cloud_and_The_Death_of_the_Sysadmin

Both are spot-on articles... thanks for posting them!

Rocket-
.ike




From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar 25 09:42:48 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:42:48 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
Message-ID: <26D82B68-7AD7-49A6-9C34-FBCFF39C6BB3@diversaform.com>

Word,

On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:04 PM, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> Isaac Levy writes:
> 
>> Down to brass tacks, does anyone on list object to using Git?
> 
> No objection, but was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on Mercurial..
> Found this Git vs Mercurial comparison.
> 
> http://importantshock.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/git-vs-mercurial
> Both are able tools with Pros and Cons.
> The one thing I have seen from the little I have looked at Mercurial, it likely will be easier to learn for someone coming from CVS or Subversion.
> From what I have read it seems GIT would have a higher learning curve for a CVS/Subersvion user.

Interesting comparison article- thx for posting!

One question I still have unanswered about hg/mercurial: does it treat directories as files, or metadata?  A former boss with great dev experence and generally good taste, was very much smitten with git- mostly because of it's unix toolchain design.  Except, it's big shortcoming (which he quickly made evident to me), was that directories themselves were not treated as file like objects- just metadata in the git backend.

It sounds nit-picky, but for many systems type repo uses, this one feature can be extremely frustrating.

Anyone else with words on Mercurial?

Best,
.ike




From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar 25 09:47:46 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:47:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>

On CVS,

On Mar 25, 2010, at 8:09 AM, John Baldwin wrote:

> On Thursday 25 March 2010 3:20:19 am Andy Kosela wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Francisco Reyes <lists at stringsutils.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> For all the fervor/fanaticism other tools get I find CVS still gets the job
>>> done for small in-house projects.
>> 
>> I second that.  Even for medium sized projects CVS still rocks.  Look
>> how many years FreeBSD project survived with that.
> 
> FreeBSD was helped by the fact that we also have a p4 depot setup to do side
> branches in (I do all my non-trivial feature branches in p4).  I still use
> CVS for small things myself.  If you want to offer a centralized SCM host I
> would offer svn though (even if it is a bit of a pig performance-wise) as
> changesets are too useful to pass up compared to CVS for new projects IMO.
> 
> I can't offer any useful opinion on git vs hg.


Two big important things about CVS which just struck me:

- it's part of the base system on *BSD, and in one way or another, (nothing extra to install)

- it's part of the common developers toolset for *BSD

Pretty compelling reasons to me suddenly, insomuch as knowledge of these tools makes everyone more capable of engaging with the projects...

Other thoughts on this point?
(BTW are we alienating the rcs users with this thread? :)

Best,
.ike




From matt at atopia.net  Thu Mar 25 10:40:43 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:40:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net> 
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>

> Shared this with my colleague at work. Very interesting and as the
> previous posted said, "spot-on".
> Thanks,

Can you share how the articles are "spot-on" if they both contradict each 
other?

-Matt


From matt at atopia.net  Thu Mar 25 12:17:11 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:17:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <382002e1003250908j1c764ccdv2609a211870f928@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net> 
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<382002e1003250908j1c764ccdv2609a211870f928@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251216330.57148@pluto.atopia.net>

> Matt,
> First of all take a Valium and get laid. Second of all two articles
> can be different then each other and still be spot on. Spot on means
> accurate. Ie. They both prove valid points. No need to start a lame
> argument dude. Here, it's not hooked-on phonix but it might work for
> you;
> http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1452990

Ha, I'm not trying to start a lame argument.  I'm more trying to 
understand the point of view of the people on this list :)

And I'm not paranoid at all, so I'm not sure what the first comment is 
about.  It's more a matter of trying to understand what's in store for the 
future, and how the best way is to keep up.

-Matt


From jschauma at netmeister.org  Thu Mar 25 12:23:17 2010
From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:23:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>

Isaac Levy <isaac at diversaform.com> wrote:
 
> Other thoughts on this point?

At the scale we're talking about based on the proposed use, I don't
think it makes any real difference which VCS you use, so picking the one
that most people are familiar with and has the lowest barrier to entry
seems to me like the best choice. :-)

-Jan
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Mar 25 12:44:29 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:44:29 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: <4BAB92ED.3050000@ceetonetechnology.com>

Jan Schaumann wrote:
> Isaac Levy <isaac at diversaform.com> wrote:
>  
>> Other thoughts on this point?
> 
> At the scale we're talking about based on the proposed use, I don't
> think it makes any real difference which VCS you use, so picking the one
> that most people are familiar with and has the lowest barrier to entry
> seems to me like the best choice. :-)
> 
> -Jan

Ditto.

This is not the context for a versioning control system . . .

We're looking for functionality for a particular purpose.

So if it's not git-web, than cvs is the best bet IMHO


From trish at bsdunix.net  Thu Mar 25 11:05:08 2010
From: trish at bsdunix.net (Siobhan Lynch)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:05:08 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <201003250809.30262.jhb@freebsd.org>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<201003250809.30262.jhb@freebsd.org>
Message-ID: <4BAB7BA4.2040203@bsdunix.net>

John Baldwin wrote:
> On Thursday 25 March 2010 3:20:19 am Andy Kosela wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Francisco Reyes <lists at stringsutils.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For all the fervor/fanaticism other tools get I find CVS still gets the job
>>> done for small in-house projects.
>> I second that.  Even for medium sized projects CVS still rocks.  Look
>> how many years FreeBSD project survived with that.
> 
> FreeBSD was helped by the fact that we also have a p4 depot setup to do side
> branches in (I do all my non-trivial feature branches in p4).  I still use
> CVS for small things myself.  If you want to offer a centralized SCM host I
> would offer svn though (even if it is a bit of a pig performance-wise) as
> changesets are too useful to pass up compared to CVS for new projects IMO.
> 
> I can't offer any useful opinion on git vs hg.
> 


I used Mercurial (hg) for some development a while ago, when I worked
with lots of stuff in OpenSolaris (Josh Rivel was around when I was
doing some OpenSol stuff with Crossbow)... and I still chose to use CVS
for local work on our own projects.

I am somewhat old fashioned... seems like I've been around since the
dinosaurs - at least the FreeBSD dinosaurs (FreeBSD 2.1.x being the
first versions I used, prior to that yes, I was a linux weenie) and
change is difficult for me, but if someone was to rule out CVS for
myself, out of what has been mentioned, git, svn, p4, and hg, I would
most likely choose hg.

But thats a personal preference... not based on features, based on my
inability to change - though svn can be more or less "dropped in" to
replace CVS from a user's perspective (but not the repository - though
conversion tools exist) - I just liked hg - and enjoyed it - and if I
had to change, I would most likely choose hg - because its similar
enough to be comfortable, but featureful enough to mean something in
changing.

-Trish


From o_sleep at belovedarctos.com  Thu Mar 25 13:12:10 2010
From: o_sleep at belovedarctos.com (Bjorn Nelson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:12:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <4BAB996A.8020405@belovedarctos.com>

Isaac Levy wrote:
> (BTW are we alienating the rcs users with this thread? :)
>    
shell with rcs would be nice, then we could make sure the scripts are 
portable at least to another system.  Just keep in mind that the 
administrative overhead might make cvs more compelling.

-Bjorn


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Mar 25 13:29:10 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:29:10 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251216330.57148@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>	<382002e1003250908j1c764ccdv2609a211870f928@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251216330.57148@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <4BAB9D66.3060307@ceetonetechnology.com>

Matt Juszczak wrote:
>> Matt,
>> First of all take a Valium and get laid. Second of all two articles
>> can be different then each other and still be spot on. Spot on means
>> accurate. Ie. They both prove valid points. No need to start a lame
>> argument dude. Here, it's not hooked-on phonix but it might work for
>> you;
>> http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1452990
> 

<snip>

Don't see your original email on this list yet. . . nor in the archives. . .

But not appropriate for this list.  He made a legitimate point, and you 
reply that way?  That's not the tone on this list, if you didn't notice.

Not cool.

You've been warned. . .

g


From lists at zaunere.com  Thu Mar 25 13:28:49 2010
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:28:49 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
Message-ID: <019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>

> > Other thoughts on this point?
> 
> At the scale we're talking about based on the proposed use, I don't
> think it makes any real difference which VCS you use, so picking the one
> that most people are familiar with and has the lowest barrier to entry
> seems to me like the best choice. :-)

My two-cent vote would be for svn - easy access over HTTP/HTTPS, easy user
management, GUIs/UIs, handles non-traditional code files (binary files, etc)
out of the box.  I use it for config/systems management all the time (in
addition to actual source code control).

H




From billtotman at billtotman.com  Thu Mar 25 14:45:42 2010
From: billtotman at billtotman.com (Bill Totman)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:45:42 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <4BAB92ED.3050000@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
	<4BAB92ED.3050000@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <98e9d1d31003251145w79691710ha7382b7074eca938@mail.gmail.com>

Isn't CVS is becoming a thing of the past? Or, rather, isn't there a valid
reason FreeBSD opened a SVN repo (if I didn't imagine that)?

That said, in terms of having a centralized vs. distributed repo I'd rather
go with distributed; so, Mercurial or Git.

And, between those two I would choose Mercurial based on it's python-base,
OS portability, and single-binary installation.

Just my few cents.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:44 AM, George Rosamond <
george at ceetonetechnology.com> wrote:

> Jan Schaumann wrote:
>
>> Isaac Levy <isaac at diversaform.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Other thoughts on this point?
>>>
>>
>> At the scale we're talking about based on the proposed use, I don't
>> think it makes any real difference which VCS you use, so picking the one
>> that most people are familiar with and has the lowest barrier to entry
>> seems to me like the best choice. :-)
>>
>> -Jan
>>
>
> Ditto.
>
> This is not the context for a versioning control system . . .
>
> We're looking for functionality for a particular purpose.
>
> So if it's not git-web, than cvs is the best bet IMHO
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From chsnyder at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 14:52:09 2010
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:52:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>
Message-ID: <b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Hans Zaunere <lists at zaunere.com> wrote:

> My two-cent vote would be for svn - easy access over HTTP/HTTPS, easy user
> management, GUIs/UIs, handles non-traditional code files (binary files, etc)
> out of the box. ?I use it for config/systems management all the time (in
> addition to actual source code control).
>
> H

The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
project, I'm sure.

So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...


Chris Snyder
http://chxor.chxo.com/


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 14:55:18 2010
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:55:18 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>
	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

> The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
> about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
> big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
> project, I'm sure.
>
> So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
> creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
> elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
> project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...
>

Oh, and that said, you could offer a choice. Hans prefers svn, I
prefer hg, but they are separate repos so it doesn't matter.

You would need a meta-list of projects somewhere, but I think you'll
need that anyway?

Stop me if I've had too much caffeine.


From billtotman at billtotman.com  Thu Mar 25 15:00:27 2010
From: billtotman at billtotman.com (Bill Totman)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:00:27 -0500
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>
	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98e9d1d31003251200g3afa33b4yc506c6c05c160319@mail.gmail.com>

I think you're right, Chris: which repo could/would/should depend on the
project.

-bt

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
> > about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
> > big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
> > project, I'm sure.
> >
> > So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
> > creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
> > elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
> > project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...
> >
>
> Oh, and that said, you could offer a choice. Hans prefers svn, I
> prefer hg, but they are separate repos so it doesn't matter.
>
> You would need a meta-list of projects somewhere, but I think you'll
> need that anyway?
>
> Stop me if I've had too much caffeine.
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Mar 25 15:02:17 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:02:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BABB339.3010800@ceetonetechnology.com>

Chris Snyder wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
>> about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
>> big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
>> project, I'm sure.
>>
>> So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
>> creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
>> elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
>> project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...
>>
> 
> Oh, and that said, you could offer a choice. Hans prefers svn, I
> prefer hg, but they are separate repos so it doesn't matter.
> 
> You would need a meta-list of projects somewhere, but I think you'll
> need that anyway?
> 
> Stop me if I've had too much caffeine.

LOL. . . yeah, but you made *the* valid point.

What do we need?  managing independent repositories for an array of people.

We're trying to find the right tool for the project, not debate the 
merits of every option for the sake of it.

g


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Thu Mar 25 15:10:30 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:10:30 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <4BABB339.3010800@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>	<b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BABB339.3010800@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <4BABB526.2060706@ceetonetechnology.com>

George Rosamond wrote:
> Chris Snyder wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
>>> about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
>>> big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
>>> project, I'm sure.
>>>
>>> So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
>>> creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
>>> elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
>>> project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...
>>>
>>
>> Oh, and that said, you could offer a choice. Hans prefers svn, I
>> prefer hg, but they are separate repos so it doesn't matter.
>>
>> You would need a meta-list of projects somewhere, but I think you'll
>> need that anyway?
>>
>> Stop me if I've had too much caffeine.
> 
> LOL. . . yeah, but you made *the* valid point.
> 
> What do we need?  managing independent repositories for an array of people.
> 
> We're trying to find the right tool for the project, not debate the 
> merits of every option for the sake of it.

Just to clarify:

If an individual 'bazaar' project has a jail, they can use anything they 
want. . . emacs + rsync + grep if they want, for all I care.

However, this is specifically for Ike's proposed idea of repositories 
for scripts.

I assume we'd structure by name/handle of individual.

They'd get a login, commit, and could make change in the future, if they 
wanted.  Anyone else could have read access, and fork it. . . locally or 
on the server. (as we discussed offline, Bill T)

Does that make sense to Ike and all?

FYI, the bazaar box is in the colo, and will be built out this weekend.

George


From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar 25 15:09:55 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:09:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <4BABB339.3010800@ceetonetechnology.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
	<b76252691003251155j63faa474s61d16d601aa0791@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BABB339.3010800@ceetonetechnology.com>
Message-ID: <2751CBBF-3550-479F-8BC9-B28D2A688E4C@diversaform.com>

On Mar 25, 2010, at 3:02 PM, George Rosamond wrote:
> Chris Snyder wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Chris Snyder <chsnyder at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
>>> about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
>>> big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
>>> project, I'm sure.
>>> 
>>> So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
>>> creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
>>> elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
>>> project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...
>>> 
>> Oh, and that said, you could offer a choice. Hans prefers svn, I
>> prefer hg, but they are separate repos so it doesn't matter.
>> You would need a meta-list of projects somewhere, but I think you'll
>> need that anyway?
>> Stop me if I've had too much caffeine.
> 
> LOL. . . yeah, but you made *the* valid point.
> 
> What do we need?  managing independent repositories for an array of people.
> 
> We're trying to find the right tool for the project, not debate the merits of every option for the sake of it.

Terrific Chris, I agree with George here.

This is indeed the point: this idea requires many different repositories for an array of people.

The cleanest/simplest way is likely the best way to go,

--
Thoughts on everyone's experience with various approaches?

I'm now going to read up on how github is laid out:
  http://github.com/
And try to find out what the heck this is:
  http://cvshub.org/

Rocket-
.ike




From mikel.king at olivent.com  Thu Mar 25 15:17:16 2010
From: mikel.king at olivent.com (mikel king)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:17:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<20100319200042.GA68440@sixshooter.v6.thrupoint.net>
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <199E2569-7831-443C-87A5-5EB6DAE6E13B@olivent.com>


On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Isaac Levy wrote:

> Awesome,
>
> Down to some brass tacks:
>
> On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:45 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Jesse Callaway wrote:
>>
>>> I think gitweb fits nicely into the model as a tool. Actually, I'm  
>>> not
>>> up on all the names of the various git + web projects out there, but
>>> one of those git hosting situations...
>>
>> I don't know if such a thing exists, but for Ike's idea of little  
>> scripts and/or "scriplets", it would be nice to have both a  
>> repository and a forum-like commenting system linked to the code.   
>> That would allow folks to post small changes/additions for review  
>> by the community, or for some more generic scripts or functions,  
>> add some explanation or examples of usage.  Sadly, none of the  
>> (dated) web-accessible code repositories I know of incorporate such  
>> a thing.
>
> Ok- this is a liked idea by more than a few...
>
> Down to brass tacks, does anyone on list object to using Git?  So  
> far my short experiences with it are very positive- it's *easy* and  
> intuitive IMHO.
>
> Any yelps for cvs or other tools?
> Should people need shell access (repo's in home directories), or  
> just access via git/cvs?
>
> Rocket-
> .ike
>

If I were to through $0.02 in and I am but why not svn? I have used it  
for just about everything imaginable, DMS, backups and of course  
config file management.

cheers,
m




From isaac at diversaform.com  Thu Mar 25 15:23:55 2010
From: isaac at diversaform.com (Isaac Levy)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:23:55 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <99EC8682-44AB-4E48-B422-A0FCB6C6F7B2@diversaform.com>

On Mar 25, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Matt Juszczak wrote:

>> Shared this with my colleague at work. Very interesting and as the
>> previous posted said, "spot-on".
>> Thanks,
> 
> Can you share how the articles are "spot-on" if they both contradict each other?
> 
> -Matt

Good question- and trying not to keep this thread from getting too hot to touch here, but I felt the arguments posed in both threads are totally relevant to other online/offline nycbug discussions:

- Where are the lines between dev/admin/user?
  - are the lines even relevant in classic UNIX culture?
- Is invention today more about being an "assembler"?
  - Who actually has control of the root of various technologies?
  - How is their stewardship holding up?
- Are shifts in control of computing applications/behaviors affecting our daily lives?
- Are these shifts even 'happening'?
- When will the robots try to come kill us?

With that, the opposing viewpoints presented were spot-on with this thread, (though I can't say I fully agree with either, as I digest the thoughts through the day [as I today fix fundamental deploy flaws in a network full of brand-name componetnts, assembled by what seem to be MCSE's]).

--
Over the years, this sort of abstract thread have positively informed my thinking on various topics, even if no conclusion was reached...  I'm more interested in exploration than the answer in these type of threads.
With that, my apologies for ambiguity in my initial response!

my .02?

Rocket-
.ike


P.S. from the other thread:
[nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
On Mar 19, 2010, at 12:31 PM, George Rosamond wrote:

> Inventors in our era are more "assemblers" and do not require blue-sky budgets and endless time.  We are essentially enabling assemblers.




From lists at zaunere.com  Thu Mar 25 16:39:42 2010
From: lists at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:39:42 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>	
	<29E67224-E2CA-40D8-9281-8789748DFD8C@diversaform.com>	
	<aa9991031003231657r29b61705v2207453692b262c5@mail.gmail.com>	
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>	
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>	
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>	
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>	
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>	
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>	
	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>
	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01ee01cacc5b$4c45bf10$e4d13d30$@com>

> > My two-cent vote would be for svn - easy access over HTTP/HTTPS, easy user
> > management, GUIs/UIs, handles non-traditional code files (binary files, etc)
> > out of the box.  I use it for config/systems management all the time (in
> > addition to actual source code control).
> >
> > H
> 
> The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
> about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
> big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
> project, I'm sure.

But your code isn't THAT bad :)

> So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
> creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
> elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
> project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...

A single repository would probably suffice.  Subversion/Apache supports a solid permissions/authentication system.  Read and/or write permissions at a per directory level, plus a tie-in to Apache's mod_auth_mysql or whatever if needed.

That said, this is likely all most people need, and very handy:

http://svnbook.red-bean.com/nightly/en/svn.serverconfig.httpd.html

see "Per-directory access control" header

H




From matt at atopia.net  Thu Mar 25 23:47:26 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:47:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <99EC8682-44AB-4E48-B422-A0FCB6C6F7B2@diversaform.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net> 
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<99EC8682-44AB-4E48-B422-A0FCB6C6F7B2@diversaform.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003252344220.71633@pluto.atopia.net>

> - Where are the lines between dev/admin/user?
>  - are the lines even relevant in classic UNIX culture?
> - Is invention today more about being an "assembler"?

Can you elaborate?  An assembler as in figuring out what technologies work 
with others?

>  - Who actually has control of the root of various technologies?

Seems to be the companies that are launching these new standards, no? like 
Amazon EC2, for instance.  People seem to think their AMI's are 
sufficient.  If a company comes out with "auto deploy puppet/ldap/central 
syslog/dns, etc.", will that automatically become the standard?  Will 
competition among products become less and less as people start using 
whatever a particular provider auto-deploys by default?

>  - How is their stewardship holding up?
> - Are shifts in control of computing applications/behaviors affecting our daily lives?

Can you elaborate?

> - Are these shifts even 'happening'?

Again, this is something that I feel isn't the case.  In fact, I think it 
may get worse.  As systems become more "automated", developers will focus 
more and more on coding and less on setup/infrastructure.  So things will 
get sloppier, in my opinion.  I think a shift away from the "robotic 
sysadmins" is definitely occuring, but people who are good at what they do 
should be around for a while (and especially those who learn).

> - When will the robots try to come kill us?

> With that, the opposing viewpoints presented were spot-on with this 
> thread, (though I can't say I fully agree with either, as I digest the 
> thoughts through the day [as I today fix fundamental deploy flaws in a 
> network full of brand-name componetnts, assembled by what seem to be 
> MCSE's]).

Agreed.  They were both valid.

> Over the years, this sort of abstract thread have positively informed my 
> thinking on various topics, even if no conclusion was reached...  I'm 
> more interested in exploration than the answer in these type of threads. 
> With that, my apologies for ambiguity in my initial response!

I agree.  I'd love to get more people's opinion on this issue.  Anyone?


From mark.saad at ymail.com  Fri Mar 26 14:41:30 2010
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
Message-ID: <513256.93875.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Talk
This is out of left field but I am running low on instant coffee.  I was searching Amazon to see if I could get my favorite Nescafe Espresso Instant Coffee. They have it  http://amzn.com/B002O3SAJE .  Time to stock up.
I was recommended the following others by the all knowing amazon,

Java Juice Liquid Coffee Extract
http://amzn.com/B001CRQR84  

and 

Starbucks VIA
http://amzn.com/B002P5LFJI

Anyone tried the Java Juice, looks dangerous ? 

Anyone have a favorite that does not taste like foldgers instant crap.  

--
Mark Saad
mark.saad at ymail.com



From mark.saad at ymail.com  Fri Mar 26 16:44:01 2010
From: mark.saad at ymail.com (Mark Saad)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:44:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
In-Reply-To: <aa9991031003261232h43537e57mb89575e9eb20c18e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <513256.93875.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<aa9991031003261232h43537e57mb89575e9eb20c18e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <335612.11941.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Jesse
  Thanks for the info. I can see why Check this out http://amzn.com/B000XHQJEQ instant coffee with cream

 --
Mark Saad
mark.saad at ymail.com



----- Original Message ----
> From: Jesse Callaway <bonsaime at gmail.com>
> To: Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com>
> Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 3:32:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
> 
> I think George the-man-himself Rosamond has said good things about
Jacobs 
> (ya-kobes). Found in eurocentric stores.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:41 PM, 
> Mark Saad <
> href="mailto:mark.saad at ymail.com">mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> 
> Talk
> This is out of left field but I am running low on instant coffee. 
>  I was searching Amazon to see if I could get my favorite Nescafe Espresso 
> Instant Coffee. They have it  http://amzn.com/B002O3SAJE .  Time to stock 
> up.
> I was recommended the following others by the all knowing 
> amazon,
>
> Java Juice Liquid Coffee Extract
> 
> http://amzn.com/B001CRQR84
>
> and
>
> Starbucks 
> VIA
> http://amzn.com/B002P5LFJI
>
> Anyone tried the Java 
> Juice, looks dangerous ?
>
> Anyone have a favorite that does not 
> taste like foldgers instant crap.
>
> --
> Mark Saad
> 
> 
> href="mailto:mark.saad at ymail.com">mark.saad at ymail.com
>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing 
> list
> 
> href="mailto:talk at lists.nycbug.org">talk at lists.nycbug.org
> 
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Fri Mar 26 17:29:59 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:29:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
In-Reply-To: <335612.11941.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <513256.93875.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<aa9991031003261232h43537e57mb89575e9eb20c18e@mail.gmail.com>
	<335612.11941.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4BAD2757.5000900@ceetonetechnology.com>

On 03/26/10 16:44, Mark Saad wrote:
> Jesse
>    Thanks for the info. I can see why Check this out http://amzn.com/B000XHQJEQ instant coffee with cream
>
>   --
> Mark Saad
> mark.saad at ymail.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Jesse Callaway<bonsaime at gmail.com>
>> To: Mark Saad<mark.saad at ymail.com>
>> Sent: Fri, March 26, 2010 3:32:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
>>
>> I think George the-man-himself Rosamond has said good things about
> Jacobs
>> (ya-kobes). Found in eurocentric stores.

<gulp>

Jacobs . . now owned by Kraft.

pronounced Ya-cubs in some places. . .

East European delis. . . you won't even know it's instant.

Stop top-posting Mark. . you're driving me nuts!

g


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 18:25:12 2010
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:25:12 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
In-Reply-To: <513256.93875.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <513256.93875.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c31003261525i115ef568j55a922588bb4aea7@mail.gmail.com>

why bother with instant:
http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_story.htm

It makes a very good cup of coffee in 2 min flat

marc

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
> Talk
> This is out of left field but I am running low on instant coffee. ?I was searching Amazon to see if I could get my favorite Nescafe Espresso Instant Coffee. They have it ?http://amzn.com/B002O3SAJE . ?Time to stock up.
> I was recommended the following others by the all knowing amazon,
>
> Java Juice Liquid Coffee Extract
> http://amzn.com/B001CRQR84
>
> and
>
> Starbucks VIA
> http://amzn.com/B002P5LFJI
>
> Anyone tried the Java Juice, looks dangerous ?
>
> Anyone have a favorite that does not taste like foldgers instant crap.
>
> --
> Mark Saad
> mark.saad at ymail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
--Albert Camus

 The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money.
--Margaret Thatcher


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 19:16:17 2010
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 19:16:17 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>> Shared this with my colleague at work. Very interesting and as the
>> previous posted said, "spot-on".
>> Thanks,
>
> Can you share how the articles are "spot-on" if they both contradict each
> other?
>

this is a little late but what the hell

Both articles point to the death of the mid-level/journeymen sysadmin.
 This is because they both predict that much of the "wrench turning"
work will be diapering from day to day operations, punching down
serial terminal lines in the wiring closet for example or defraging
disks to name another.  most of the mid-level  work is a good place to
automate as most simple things are pretty much worked out, a lot of
this is due to economies of scale coming in with cloud computing or
mid-range servers that can hold a small data center from 5 years ago
on one box with Jails driving it.  For example TripWire has a little
yellow book they sell/give away,
http://www.amazon.com/Visible-Ops-Handbook-Implementing-Practical/dp/0975568612/,
has some interesting information about how places with high server to
SA ratios generally do not trouble shoot boxes they just reinstall
them, if that does not work then there is something wrong with the
build process and you fix the build process.  Now doing this right is
a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.

marc

-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
--Albert Camus

 The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money.
--Margaret Thatcher


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 20:07:01 2010
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:07:01 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] a new direction for NYC*BUG
In-Reply-To: <01ee01cacc5b$4c45bf10$e4d13d30$@com>
References: <4BA3A6F4.4030805@ceetonetechnology.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.00.1003232042310.761@hotlap.local>
	<51D3A8E4-CB05-43A6-991C-C09F781EA145@diversaform.com>
	<cone.1269486275.640598.3600.1000@shelca>
	<3cc535c81003250020h20768ee8t165a74f736dfddd3@mail.gmail.com>
	<DC736D05-90B6-4B92-9282-D6A4461EDC52@diversaform.com>
	<20100325162317.GA19504@netmeister.org>
	<019501cacc40$a1a02240$e4e066c0$@com>
	<b76252691003251152v5da24021ufb589a5e94f6764f@mail.gmail.com>
	<01ee01cacc5b$4c45bf10$e4d13d30$@com>
Message-ID: <aa9991031003261707q2a63577di8c8985ef22a630ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Hans Zaunere <lists at zaunere.com> wrote:
>> > My two-cent vote would be for svn - easy access over HTTP/HTTPS, easy user
>> > management, GUIs/UIs, handles non-traditional code files (binary files, etc)
>> > out of the box. ?I use it for config/systems management all the time (in
>> > addition to actual source code control).
>> >
>> > H
>>
>> The trick with a community repository is that you're really talking
>> about creating a bunch of independent repositories, rather than one
>> big one. Hans doesn't want me committing my sloppy code into his
>> project, I'm sure.
>
> But your code isn't THAT bad :)
>
>> So whatever you choose, make sure the administrative overhead of
>> creating new repositories and assigning commit rights is handled in an
>> elegant way. And if you need to invent that wheel, that's a great seed
>> project for the new repo. Nothing like eating your own dogfood...
>
> A single repository would probably suffice. ?Subversion/Apache supports a solid permissions/authentication system. ?Read and/or write permissions at a per directory level, plus a tie-in to Apache's mod_auth_mysql or whatever if needed.
>
> That said, this is likely all most people need, and very handy:
>
> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/nightly/en/svn.serverconfig.httpd.html
>
> see "Per-directory access control" header
>
> H
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

I guess  if it's in CVS then the SVN people can just use SVN at home
and commit CVS. The same goes for git since it can talk to subversion.
So no big deal. The central shared repo can be whatever and people can
use whatever tools they're comfortable with.

-jesse


From bonsaime at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 20:24:37 2010
From: bonsaime at gmail.com (Jesse Callaway)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:24:37 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] OT - Instant Coffee
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c31003261525i115ef568j55a922588bb4aea7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <513256.93875.qm@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<8c50a3c31003261525i115ef568j55a922588bb4aea7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa9991031003261724s5a48c59an49f46313ffd17295@mail.gmail.com>

THANKS Marc! cold fusion! and from the people who made my favorite toy as a kid!

-jesse

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> why bother with instant:
> http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_story.htm
>
> It makes a very good cup of coffee in 2 min flat
>
> marc
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Mark Saad <mark.saad at ymail.com> wrote:
>> Talk
>> This is out of left field but I am running low on instant coffee. ?I was searching Amazon to see if I could get my favorite Nescafe Espresso Instant Coffee. They have it ?http://amzn.com/B002O3SAJE . ?Time to stock up.
>> I was recommended the following others by the all knowing amazon,
>>
>> Java Juice Liquid Coffee Extract
>> http://amzn.com/B001CRQR84
>>
>> and
>>
>> Starbucks VIA
>> http://amzn.com/B002P5LFJI
>>
>> Anyone tried the Java Juice, looks dangerous ?
>>
>> Anyone have a favorite that does not taste like foldgers instant crap.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Saad
>> mark.saad at ymail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
> --Albert Camus
>
> ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
> of other people's money.
> --Margaret Thatcher
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


From matt at atopia.net  Sat Mar 27 10:57:14 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:57:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net> 
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>

> build process and you fix the build process.  Now doing this right is
> a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
> and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.

So where are the lines drawn?  If someone who has experience only in the 
things you specify, like running fdisk, debugging broken servers, basic 
installs, etc., then I agree that type of skillset is going to be less and 
less in demand.  But what about people with more knowledge?  Knowledge in 
LDAP, CF Engine, Puppet, Apache - those sorts of tools, and even more 
important, standardizing servers (central authentication, central 
authorization, sudo in ldap, etc.).  Are these going to be automated as 
well?

Think about this: will there be a time when competitors no longer compete, 
because major providers will automate the instance creation of 
environments (for instance, Amazon may choose to make a one-click 
environment that uses puppet for configuration, openldap for 
authorization/authentication, postfix for email, and a few other tools for 
things like monitoring).  Would competiting tools (like exim, for 
instance) be run out of demand as more and more people go to these "one 
click" approaches and choose not to replace them?

-Matt


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 12:11:16 2010
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 12:11:16 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>> build process and you fix the build process. ?Now doing this right is
>> a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
>> and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.
>
> So where are the lines drawn? ?If someone who has experience only in the
> things you specify, like running fdisk, debugging broken servers, basic
> installs, etc., then I agree that type of skillset is going to be less and
> less in demand. ?But what about people with more knowledge? ?Knowledge in
> LDAP, CF Engine, Puppet, Apache - those sorts of tools, and even more
> important, standardizing servers (central authentication, central
> authorization, sudo in ldap, etc.). ?Are these going to be automated as
> well?

Personally I think you want to keep an eye on the system side and not
so much on the server side.  I expect that other then fans servers
will have no moving parts fairly soon, 5 years or 10 at the out side,
as plater drives get replaced by SSD drives, there goes a lot of work.
 Also properly designed servers, for example HP's, are very fast to
work on, again there goes some work.  So you will have less to do and
what you have to do will take less time, any manager will tell you
that means reduce head count.

>
> Think about this: will there be a time when competitors no longer compete,
> because major providers will automate the instance creation of environments
> (for instance, Amazon may choose to make a one-click environment that uses
> puppet for configuration, openldap for authorization/authentication, postfix
> for email, and a few other tools for things like monitoring). ?Would
> competiting tools (like exim, for instance) be run out of demand as more and
> more people go to these "one click" approaches and choose not to replace
> them?

Well for postfix, at the time it was written sendmail was the MTA on
the internet, no not so much.  Good ideas do tent to survive and
prosper.  But the need to be much better to be worth the pain of
switching.  Postfix is as long as you can live with a mail switch as
sendmail is a mail router, switch == internet only and router ==
internet to other network(ex. decnet).

Also traditional sysadmin skills include areas like security, security
is a growth industry.  Disaster recovery, capacity planning, building
cloud physical plant for people who want the cloud but need to keep
data private and a bunch of other skills.  And to reply to the exim
bit, what is stopping exim people from taking the dam thing and
replacing postfix with exim and uploading it for people to use?

I think the SA world is going to split along the lines of people who
build integrated circuits, people who build things with integrated
circuits and people who put IC's in sockets,  Figure out where you
want to be and get there.  Two of the three will pay well.

thanks,

marc
-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
--Albert Camus

 The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money.
--Margaret Thatcher


From matt at atopia.net  Sat Mar 27 14:56:24 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:56:24 +0000
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com><20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
Message-ID: <2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I'm still a little confused by all these replies. So all in all, what skills would be best to focus on over the next few years?  I do agree that hardware specific skills will fade unless you're really advanced. 

But what about systems engineer type skills?  What if you're good at things like nagios, puppet, ldap, apache, mysql, postfix, etc etc. Will that matter?

Will it come down to just two types of people: developers, and implementation experts? 

-----Original Message-----
From: George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:47:09 
To: Marc Spitzer<mspitzer at gmail.com>
Cc: Matt Juszczak<matt at atopia.net>; NYCBUG List<talk at lists.nycbug.org>; John Villa<john.joe.villa at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems engineer/DBA?

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:11:16PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> >> build process and you fix the build process. ?Now doing this right is
> >> a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
> >> and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.
> >
> > So where are the lines drawn? ?If someone who has experience only in the
> > things you specify, like running fdisk, debugging broken servers, basic
> > installs, etc., then I agree that type of skillset is going to be less and
> > less in demand. ?But what about people with more knowledge? ?Knowledge in
> > LDAP, CF Engine, Puppet, Apache - those sorts of tools, and even more
> > important, standardizing servers (central authentication, central
> > authorization, sudo in ldap, etc.). ?Are these going to be automated as
> > well?
> 
> Personally I think you want to keep an eye on the system side and not
> so much on the server side.  I expect that other then fans servers
> will have no moving parts fairly soon, 5 years or 10 at the out side,
> as plater drives get replaced by SSD drives, there goes a lot of work.
>  Also properly designed servers, for example HP's, are very fast to
> work on, again there goes some work.  So you will have less to do and
> what you have to do will take less time, any manager will tell you
> that means reduce head count.
> 
> >
> > Think about this: will there be a time when competitors no longer compete,
> > because major providers will automate the instance creation of environments
> > (for instance, Amazon may choose to make a one-click environment that uses
> > puppet for configuration, openldap for authorization/authentication, postfix
> > for email, and a few other tools for things like monitoring). ?Would
> > competiting tools (like exim, for instance) be run out of demand as more and
> > more people go to these "one click" approaches and choose not to replace
> > them?
> 
> Well for postfix, at the time it was written sendmail was the MTA on
> the internet, no not so much.  Good ideas do tent to survive and
> prosper.  But the need to be much better to be worth the pain of
> switching.  Postfix is as long as you can live with a mail switch as
> sendmail is a mail router, switch == internet only and router ==
> internet to other network(ex. decnet).
> 
> Also traditional sysadmin skills include areas like security, security
> is a growth industry.  Disaster recovery, capacity planning, building
> cloud physical plant for people who want the cloud but need to keep
> data private and a bunch of other skills.  And to reply to the exim
> bit, what is stopping exim people from taking the dam thing and
> replacing postfix with exim and uploading it for people to use?
> 
> I think the SA world is going to split along the lines of people who
> build integrated circuits, people who build things with integrated
> circuits and people who put IC's in sockets,  Figure out where you
> want to be and get there.  Two of the three will pay well.
> 

I think the problem with approaching this question is everyone gets very linear in their estimations.

The waves and troughs vary in depth and breadth.

What would your guest-imates be if the internet (really) "Balkanized"?

What if technology goes into something of a stagnation or a decline?  Certainly whole periods of history are full of such happenings.

Even look at the shallow yet explosive technology boom of the late 90's.  From new web browser releases, IDS systems, etc., every six months. .. to a certain amount of stagnation for a few years post-2000.

Assuming there continues to be forward-moving trends, though, I'd agree with Marc about the "less moving parts" idea. . . that is already in flux, and it's hard to believe on desktops/laptops/stand-alone servers/devices that this trend won't continue.  Oh, right, it's kind of like old-school terminals in the terminal-mainframe model.

More generally, what about the cloud?

Well, if someone figures out how it's dramatically different from clustering, network-wide file storage, etc., then it would be worth approaching as a distinctive trend.

However, lots of development in security devices and apps, management tools, control panels,     
 etc., will certainly go hand-and-hand with the (possible) cloud growth.

The 1990's explosion of colocation centers, company and carrier-neutral, certainly opened some deskilling among a layer of staff at those places, and also opened up "differently skilled" technical people into the world of higher uptimes and networks.  This is also the case with various hosting packages, available all over.

That was a more significant trend, IMHO, then the (in the) cloud talk.

g

From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Sat Mar 27 14:47:09 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:47:09 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:11:16PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> >> build process and you fix the build process. ?Now doing this right is
> >> a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
> >> and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.
> >
> > So where are the lines drawn? ?If someone who has experience only in the
> > things you specify, like running fdisk, debugging broken servers, basic
> > installs, etc., then I agree that type of skillset is going to be less and
> > less in demand. ?But what about people with more knowledge? ?Knowledge in
> > LDAP, CF Engine, Puppet, Apache - those sorts of tools, and even more
> > important, standardizing servers (central authentication, central
> > authorization, sudo in ldap, etc.). ?Are these going to be automated as
> > well?
> 
> Personally I think you want to keep an eye on the system side and not
> so much on the server side.  I expect that other then fans servers
> will have no moving parts fairly soon, 5 years or 10 at the out side,
> as plater drives get replaced by SSD drives, there goes a lot of work.
>  Also properly designed servers, for example HP's, are very fast to
> work on, again there goes some work.  So you will have less to do and
> what you have to do will take less time, any manager will tell you
> that means reduce head count.
> 
> >
> > Think about this: will there be a time when competitors no longer compete,
> > because major providers will automate the instance creation of environments
> > (for instance, Amazon may choose to make a one-click environment that uses
> > puppet for configuration, openldap for authorization/authentication, postfix
> > for email, and a few other tools for things like monitoring). ?Would
> > competiting tools (like exim, for instance) be run out of demand as more and
> > more people go to these "one click" approaches and choose not to replace
> > them?
> 
> Well for postfix, at the time it was written sendmail was the MTA on
> the internet, no not so much.  Good ideas do tent to survive and
> prosper.  But the need to be much better to be worth the pain of
> switching.  Postfix is as long as you can live with a mail switch as
> sendmail is a mail router, switch == internet only and router ==
> internet to other network(ex. decnet).
> 
> Also traditional sysadmin skills include areas like security, security
> is a growth industry.  Disaster recovery, capacity planning, building
> cloud physical plant for people who want the cloud but need to keep
> data private and a bunch of other skills.  And to reply to the exim
> bit, what is stopping exim people from taking the dam thing and
> replacing postfix with exim and uploading it for people to use?
> 
> I think the SA world is going to split along the lines of people who
> build integrated circuits, people who build things with integrated
> circuits and people who put IC's in sockets,  Figure out where you
> want to be and get there.  Two of the three will pay well.
> 

I think the problem with approaching this question is everyone gets very linear in their estimations.

The waves and troughs vary in depth and breadth.

What would your guest-imates be if the internet (really) "Balkanized"?

What if technology goes into something of a stagnation or a decline?  Certainly whole periods of history are full of such happenings.

Even look at the shallow yet explosive technology boom of the late 90's.  From new web browser releases, IDS systems, etc., every six months. .. to a certain amount of stagnation for a few years post-2000.

Assuming there continues to be forward-moving trends, though, I'd agree with Marc about the "less moving parts" idea. . . that is already in flux, and it's hard to believe on desktops/laptops/stand-alone servers/devices that this trend won't continue.  Oh, right, it's kind of like old-school terminals in the terminal-mainframe model.

More generally, what about the cloud?

Well, if someone figures out how it's dramatically different from clustering, network-wide file storage, etc., then it would be worth approaching as a distinctive trend.

However, lots of development in security devices and apps, management tools, control panels,     
 etc., will certainly go hand-and-hand with the (possible) cloud growth.

The 1990's explosion of colocation centers, company and carrier-neutral, certainly opened some deskilling among a layer of staff at those places, and also opened up "differently skilled" technical people into the world of higher uptimes and networks.  This is also the case with various hosting packages, available all over.

That was a more significant trend, IMHO, then the (in the) cloud talk.

g


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 23:01:41 2010
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:01:41 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
	<2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c31003272001w748d71f2k2533b4544ec0adb0@mail.gmail.com>

Matt,

Solve hard business oriented problems and you will make money.  None
of the things you listed is particularly hard or particularly
business oriented.  What you want to be is the guy that people come to
that can say "ok I will figure it out" and they go away happy because
you will and they will pay you money to do so.

Tech is tools, mechanics need to know their tools and know how to use
their tools.  But if all you know is tools how do you fix cars?  And
you are in the business of fixing cars not knowing tools.  Figure out
what *your* cars are and how to fix and improve them, this will help
you select the tools you need to do the job.  Two I would recommend,
and am working on my self, are project management and writing.  Others
your mileage may vary.

marc



On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
> I'm still a little confused by all these replies. So all in all, what skills would be best to focus on over the next few years? ?I do agree that hardware specific skills will fade unless you're really advanced.
>
> But what about systems engineer type skills? ?What if you're good at things like nagios, puppet, ldap, apache, mysql, postfix, etc etc. Will that matter?
>
> Will it come down to just two types of people: developers, and implementation experts?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com>
> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:47:09
> To: Marc Spitzer<mspitzer at gmail.com>
> Cc: Matt Juszczak<matt at atopia.net>; NYCBUG List<talk at lists.nycbug.org>; John Villa<john.joe.villa at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems engineer/DBA?
>
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:11:16PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>> >> build process and you fix the build process. ?Now doing this right is
>> >> a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
>> >> and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.
>> >
>> > So where are the lines drawn? ?If someone who has experience only in the
>> > things you specify, like running fdisk, debugging broken servers, basic
>> > installs, etc., then I agree that type of skillset is going to be less and
>> > less in demand. ?But what about people with more knowledge? ?Knowledge in
>> > LDAP, CF Engine, Puppet, Apache - those sorts of tools, and even more
>> > important, standardizing servers (central authentication, central
>> > authorization, sudo in ldap, etc.). ?Are these going to be automated as
>> > well?
>>
>> Personally I think you want to keep an eye on the system side and not
>> so much on the server side. ?I expect that other then fans servers
>> will have no moving parts fairly soon, 5 years or 10 at the out side,
>> as plater drives get replaced by SSD drives, there goes a lot of work.
>> ?Also properly designed servers, for example HP's, are very fast to
>> work on, again there goes some work. ?So you will have less to do and
>> what you have to do will take less time, any manager will tell you
>> that means reduce head count.
>>
>> >
>> > Think about this: will there be a time when competitors no longer compete,
>> > because major providers will automate the instance creation of environments
>> > (for instance, Amazon may choose to make a one-click environment that uses
>> > puppet for configuration, openldap for authorization/authentication, postfix
>> > for email, and a few other tools for things like monitoring). ?Would
>> > competiting tools (like exim, for instance) be run out of demand as more and
>> > more people go to these "one click" approaches and choose not to replace
>> > them?
>>
>> Well for postfix, at the time it was written sendmail was the MTA on
>> the internet, no not so much. ?Good ideas do tent to survive and
>> prosper. ?But the need to be much better to be worth the pain of
>> switching. ?Postfix is as long as you can live with a mail switch as
>> sendmail is a mail router, switch == internet only and router ==
>> internet to other network(ex. decnet).
>>
>> Also traditional sysadmin skills include areas like security, security
>> is a growth industry. ?Disaster recovery, capacity planning, building
>> cloud physical plant for people who want the cloud but need to keep
>> data private and a bunch of other skills. ?And to reply to the exim
>> bit, what is stopping exim people from taking the dam thing and
>> replacing postfix with exim and uploading it for people to use?
>>
>> I think the SA world is going to split along the lines of people who
>> build integrated circuits, people who build things with integrated
>> circuits and people who put IC's in sockets, ?Figure out where you
>> want to be and get there. ?Two of the three will pay well.
>>
>
> I think the problem with approaching this question is everyone gets very linear in their estimations.
>
> The waves and troughs vary in depth and breadth.
>
> What would your guest-imates be if the internet (really) "Balkanized"?
>
> What if technology goes into something of a stagnation or a decline? ?Certainly whole periods of history are full of such happenings.
>
> Even look at the shallow yet explosive technology boom of the late 90's. ?From new web browser releases, IDS systems, etc., every six months. .. to a certain amount of stagnation for a few years post-2000.
>
> Assuming there continues to be forward-moving trends, though, I'd agree with Marc about the "less moving parts" idea. . . that is already in flux, and it's hard to believe on desktops/laptops/stand-alone servers/devices that this trend won't continue. ?Oh, right, it's kind of like old-school terminals in the terminal-mainframe model.
>
> More generally, what about the cloud?
>
> Well, if someone figures out how it's dramatically different from clustering, network-wide file storage, etc., then it would be worth approaching as a distinctive trend.
>
> However, lots of development in security devices and apps, management tools, control panels,
> ?etc., will certainly go hand-and-hand with the (possible) cloud growth.
>
> The 1990's explosion of colocation centers, company and carrier-neutral, certainly opened some deskilling among a layer of staff at those places, and also opened up "differently skilled" technical people into the world of higher uptimes and networks. ?This is also the case with various hosting packages, available all over.
>
> That was a more significant trend, IMHO, then the (in the) cloud talk.
>
> g
>



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
--Albert Camus

 The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money.
--Margaret Thatcher


From matt at atopia.net  Mon Mar 29 22:49:45 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<b76252691003240812xfdb7456o504c47d2e7b7f777@mail.gmail.com>
	<E178A107-54FD-4EC7-8D21-55DCB8FEF9D6@diversaform.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003241945330.32401@pluto.atopia.net> 
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003292248210.96022@pluto.atopia.net>

> Also traditional sysadmin skills include areas like security, security
> is a growth industry.  Disaster recovery, capacity planning, building
> cloud physical plant for people who want the cloud but need to keep
> data private and a bunch of other skills.  And to reply to the exim
> bit, what is stopping exim people from taking the dam thing and
> replacing postfix with exim and uploading it for people to use?

Agreed on the security bit: as more cloud providers come out, people will 
want to know their data is secure.  But as encryption gets better, people 
will worry less and less about that.  Again, I still sort of fail to see 
where the systems administrator / systems engineer will come into play 
once this stuff is all point+click - images that can be spun up on demand 
with encryption, central authentication, etc. already built in.

> I think the SA world is going to split along the lines of people who
> build integrated circuits, people who build things with integrated
> circuits and people who put IC's in sockets,  Figure out where you
> want to be and get there.  Two of the three will pay well.

I assume the "people who put IC's in sockets" is what you feel will 
disappear?


From swygue at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 09:49:59 2010
From: swygue at gmail.com (swygue)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:49:59 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c31003272001w748d71f2k2533b4544ec0adb0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
	<2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c31003272001w748d71f2k2533b4544ec0adb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cdb2c1f31003300649y6b030bf6mf0217f6291b4e72a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Matt,
>
> Solve hard business oriented problems and you will make money. ?None
> of the things you listed is particularly hard or particularly
> business oriented. ?What you want to be is the guy that people come to
> that can say "ok I will figure it out" and they go away happy because
> you will and they will pay you money to do so.
>
> Tech is tools, mechanics need to know their tools and know how to use
> their tools. ?But if all you know is tools how do you fix cars? ?And
> you are in the business of fixing cars not knowing tools. ?Figure out
> what *your* cars are and how to fix and improve them, this will help
> you select the tools you need to do the job. ?Two I would recommend,
> and am working on my self, are project management and writing. ?Others
> your mileage may vary.
>
> marc
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>> I'm still a little confused by all these replies. So all in all, what skills would be best to focus on over the next few years? ?I do agree that hardware specific skills will fade unless you're really advanced.
>>
>> But what about systems engineer type skills? ?What if you're good at things like nagios, puppet, ldap, apache, mysql, postfix, etc etc. Will that matter?
>>
>> Will it come down to just two types of people: developers, and implementation experts?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Rosamond <george at ceetonetechnology.com>
>> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:47:09
>> To: Marc Spitzer<mspitzer at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Matt Juszczak<matt at atopia.net>; NYCBUG List<talk at lists.nycbug.org>; John Villa<john.joe.villa at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems engineer/DBA?
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 12:11:16PM -0400, Marc Spitzer wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>>> >> build process and you fix the build process. ?Now doing this right is
>>> >> a high skill task, trouble shooting a box has become a low skill task
>>> >> and the middle get squeezed a bit smaller.
>>> >
>>> > So where are the lines drawn? ?If someone who has experience only in the
>>> > things you specify, like running fdisk, debugging broken servers, basic
>>> > installs, etc., then I agree that type of skillset is going to be less and
>>> > less in demand. ?But what about people with more knowledge? ?Knowledge in
>>> > LDAP, CF Engine, Puppet, Apache - those sorts of tools, and even more
>>> > important, standardizing servers (central authentication, central
>>> > authorization, sudo in ldap, etc.). ?Are these going to be automated as
>>> > well?
>>>
>>> Personally I think you want to keep an eye on the system side and not
>>> so much on the server side. ?I expect that other then fans servers
>>> will have no moving parts fairly soon, 5 years or 10 at the out side,
>>> as plater drives get replaced by SSD drives, there goes a lot of work.
>>> ?Also properly designed servers, for example HP's, are very fast to
>>> work on, again there goes some work. ?So you will have less to do and
>>> what you have to do will take less time, any manager will tell you
>>> that means reduce head count.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Think about this: will there be a time when competitors no longer compete,
>>> > because major providers will automate the instance creation of environments
>>> > (for instance, Amazon may choose to make a one-click environment that uses
>>> > puppet for configuration, openldap for authorization/authentication, postfix
>>> > for email, and a few other tools for things like monitoring). ?Would
>>> > competiting tools (like exim, for instance) be run out of demand as more and
>>> > more people go to these "one click" approaches and choose not to replace
>>> > them?
>>>
>>> Well for postfix, at the time it was written sendmail was the MTA on
>>> the internet, no not so much. ?Good ideas do tent to survive and
>>> prosper. ?But the need to be much better to be worth the pain of
>>> switching. ?Postfix is as long as you can live with a mail switch as
>>> sendmail is a mail router, switch == internet only and router ==
>>> internet to other network(ex. decnet).
>>>
>>> Also traditional sysadmin skills include areas like security, security
>>> is a growth industry. ?Disaster recovery, capacity planning, building
>>> cloud physical plant for people who want the cloud but need to keep
>>> data private and a bunch of other skills. ?And to reply to the exim
>>> bit, what is stopping exim people from taking the dam thing and
>>> replacing postfix with exim and uploading it for people to use?
>>>
>>> I think the SA world is going to split along the lines of people who
>>> build integrated circuits, people who build things with integrated
>>> circuits and people who put IC's in sockets, ?Figure out where you
>>> want to be and get there. ?Two of the three will pay well.
>>>
>>
>> I think the problem with approaching this question is everyone gets very linear in their estimations.
>>
>> The waves and troughs vary in depth and breadth.
>>
>> What would your guest-imates be if the internet (really) "Balkanized"?
>>
>> What if technology goes into something of a stagnation or a decline? ?Certainly whole periods of history are full of such happenings.
>>
>> Even look at the shallow yet explosive technology boom of the late 90's. ?From new web browser releases, IDS systems, etc., every six months. .. to a certain amount of stagnation for a few years post-2000.
>>
>> Assuming there continues to be forward-moving trends, though, I'd agree with Marc about the "less moving parts" idea. . . that is already in flux, and it's hard to believe on desktops/laptops/stand-alone servers/devices that this trend won't continue. ?Oh, right, it's kind of like old-school terminals in the terminal-mainframe model.
>>
>> More generally, what about the cloud?
>>
>> Well, if someone figures out how it's dramatically different from clustering, network-wide file storage, etc., then it would be worth approaching as a distinctive trend.
>>
>> However, lots of development in security devices and apps, management tools, control panels,
>> ?etc., will certainly go hand-and-hand with the (possible) cloud growth.
>>
>> The 1990's explosion of colocation centers, company and carrier-neutral, certainly opened some deskilling among a layer of staff at those places, and also opened up "differently skilled" technical people into the world of higher uptimes and networks. ?This is also the case with various hosting packages, available all over.
>>
>> That was a more significant trend, IMHO, then the (in the) cloud talk.
>>
>> g
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
> --Albert Camus
>
> ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
> of other people's money.
> --Margaret Thatcher
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nycbug.org
> http://lists.nycbug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

Marc,

Your are on point, your reference to the tripwire yellow book is
exactly how things are done at my place of employment. One of my
primary roles is to migrate our tomcat application from Windows to
Linux, I'm in between development and the application support teams.
One day, after spending another week troubleshooting an issue that
turned out to be a application configuration problem again. I turned
to my manager and told him we need to adopt a policy of rebuilding
systems rather than troubleshooting. I suggested this because I
realize that its difficult to troubleshoot something you don't have
control over, when you have another team that insist the issue is on
your end and you have to prove them wrong before they take a closer
look at their configs.

You also mentioned project management and writing, you are absolutely
right about that as well. One thing I've realized since working as a
sysadmin is, you don't come across developers or support personnel who
understands infrastructure or understands something simple as how the
OS you are running boots. My writing skills sucks, and my project
management is improving. The little I know of both has helped me deal
with these two groups of people which lead to us "Solving hard
business oriented problems". I've also noticed some people in IT just
stopped learning, and sadly some of these people are now managers, so
knowing how to articulate something in writing can take you a long
way.

If you understand the business you will make sysadmin decisions that
improve business, and every company values that.

- Rodrique Heron
-- 
swygue neron --->>


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Tue Mar 30 09:54:05 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:54:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] BSD Fund & NYCBUG
Message-ID: <4BB2027D.6050807@ceetonetechnology.com>

Just a quick update on building our bridge with BSD Fund:

http://twitter.com/@bsdfund

We are excited as we have had multiple discussions about structuring 
NYCBUG for a number of benefits, without over-formalizing and changing 
the organic dynamics of our "memberless" group.

BSD Fund will be our accounting backend for the conference.  It can 
potentially explore other directions with their 501(c)(3) status as our 
backing.

We will be providing more details on this relation as we move forward.

George


From matt at atopia.net  Tue Mar 30 20:03:25 2010
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:03:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
 engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <cdb2c1f31003300649y6b030bf6mf0217f6291b4e72a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<965DC999-0BF7-4847-8B48-B8A87FAD08F0@diversaform.com>
	<382002e1003250739p38db7c16re6319413737e51c@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
	<2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c31003272001w748d71f2k2533b4544ec0adb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdb2c1f31003300649y6b030bf6mf0217f6291b4e72a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003302001490.26185@pluto.atopia.net>

> Your are on point, your reference to the tripwire yellow book is
> exactly how things are done at my place of employment. One of my
> primary roles is to migrate our tomcat application from Windows to
> Linux, I'm in between development and the application support teams.
> One day, after spending another week troubleshooting an issue that
> turned out to be a application configuration problem again. I turned
> to my manager and told him we need to adopt a policy of rebuilding
> systems rather than troubleshooting. I suggested this because I
> realize that its difficult to troubleshoot something you don't have
> control over, when you have another team that insist the issue is on
> your end and you have to prove them wrong before they take a closer
> look at their configs.

I agree and disagree with this.  I think anything at this point that isn't 
standardized should be rebuilt in general into a standardized setup 
(puppet, openldap, centralized DNS, etc.).  But then, rebuilding is easy - 
you just install a new instance, launch it, and have puppet configure it.

Are you saying that if one tiny thing breaks, you rebuild the whole 
instance anyway?  Or are you saying that if something major breaks, and 
the box becomes too unmanageable?

> You also mentioned project management and writing, you are absolutely
> right about that as well. One thing I've realized since working as a
> sysadmin is, you don't come across developers or support personnel who
> understands infrastructure or understands something simple as how the
> OS you are running boots. My writing skills sucks, and my project
> management is improving. The little I know of both has helped me deal
> with these two groups of people which lead to us "Solving hard
> business oriented problems". I've also noticed some people in IT just
> stopped learning, and sadly some of these people are now managers, so
> knowing how to articulate something in writing can take you a long
> way.

The latter is quite sad actually =(


From mspitzer at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 20:25:39 2010
From: mspitzer at gmail.com (Marc Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:25:39 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003302001490.26185@pluto.atopia.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003251040290.54751@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
	<2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c31003272001w748d71f2k2533b4544ec0adb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdb2c1f31003300649y6b030bf6mf0217f6291b4e72a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003302001490.26185@pluto.atopia.net>
Message-ID: <8c50a3c31003301725w721a3feeraf49ce1bc831107f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>> Your are on point, your reference to the tripwire yellow book is
>> exactly how things are done at my place of employment. One of my
>> primary roles is to migrate our tomcat application from Windows to
>> Linux, I'm in between development and the application support teams.
>> One day, after spending another week troubleshooting an issue that
>> turned out to be a application configuration problem again. I turned
>> to my manager and told him we need to adopt a policy of rebuilding
>> systems rather than troubleshooting. I suggested this because I
>> realize that its difficult to troubleshoot something you don't have
>> control over, when you have another team that insist the issue is on
>> your end and you have to prove them wrong before they take a closer
>> look at their configs.
>
> I agree and disagree with this. ?I think anything at this point that isn't
> standardized should be rebuilt in general into a standardized setup (puppet,
> openldap, centralized DNS, etc.). ?But then, rebuilding is easy - you just
> install a new instance, launch it, and have puppet configure it.
>
> Are you saying that if one tiny thing breaks, you rebuild the whole instance
> anyway? ?Or are you saying that if something major breaks, and the box
> becomes too unmanageable?

go read the little yellow book, it explains it.  first troubleshooting
step is reinstall the box and see if that works.  It is a short book
that tripwire will send you fro free.

>
>> You also mentioned project management and writing, you are absolutely
>> right about that as well. One thing I've realized since working as a
>> sysadmin is, you don't come across developers or support personnel who
>> understands infrastructure or understands something simple as how the
>> OS you are running boots. My writing skills sucks, and my project
>> management is improving. The little I know of both has helped me deal
>> with these two groups of people which lead to us "Solving hard
>> business oriented problems". I've also noticed some people in IT just
>> stopped learning, and sadly some of these people are now managers, so
>> knowing how to articulate something in writing can take you a long
>> way.
>
> The latter is quite sad actually =(

it makes me money.

marc



-- 
Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
--Albert Camus

 The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money.
--Margaret Thatcher


From swygue at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 23:11:56 2010
From: swygue at gmail.com (swygue)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:11:56 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Hypothetical: the end of the sysadmin/systems
	engineer/DBA?
In-Reply-To: <8c50a3c31003301725w721a3feeraf49ce1bc831107f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003232357530.3396@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003261616w62c768b0t480f378c273406b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003271054030.19320@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003270911r4e1610c6s2119070400c961c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100327184708.GA16235@shoeshine.sddi.net>
	<2038384093-1269716187-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147321872-@bda188.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8c50a3c31003272001w748d71f2k2533b4544ec0adb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<cdb2c1f31003300649y6b030bf6mf0217f6291b4e72a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003302001490.26185@pluto.atopia.net>
	<8c50a3c31003301725w721a3feeraf49ce1bc831107f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2wcdb2c1f31003302011v2809c30cqbf5b485a56fa0f25@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Matt Juszczak <matt at atopia.net> wrote:
>>> Your are on point, your reference to the tripwire yellow book is
>>> exactly how things are done at my place of employment. One of my
>>> primary roles is to migrate our tomcat application from Windows to
>>> Linux, I'm in between development and the application support teams.
>>> One day, after spending another week troubleshooting an issue that
>>> turned out to be a application configuration problem again. I turned
>>> to my manager and told him we need to adopt a policy of rebuilding
>>> systems rather than troubleshooting. I suggested this because I
>>> realize that its difficult to troubleshoot something you don't have
>>> control over, when you have another team that insist the issue is on
>>> your end and you have to prove them wrong before they take a closer
>>> look at their configs.
>>
>> I agree and disagree with this. ?I think anything at this point that isn't
>> standardized should be rebuilt in general into a standardized setup (puppet,
>> openldap, centralized DNS, etc.). ?But then, rebuilding is easy - you just
>> install a new instance, launch it, and have puppet configure it.

Definitely, I use puppet, DNS, DHCP and cobbler.

>>
>> Are you saying that if one tiny thing breaks, you rebuild the whole instance
>> anyway? ?Or are you saying that if something major breaks, and the box
>> becomes too unmanageable?

No, its simple just to force the application support team to come up
with a methodology to manage the application. They tend to make
changes to productions systems, then after time a problem comes up and
we can't replicate it in QA. That's when the blame game starts, they
blame the network, then the server builds. They don't want to spend
the time reconfiguring the server, so that forces them to standerized
and follow the Dev>QA>Production methodology.


> go read the little yellow book, it explains it. ?first troubleshooting
> step is reinstall the box and see if that works. ?It is a short book
> that tripwire will send you fro free.
>
>>
>>> You also mentioned project management and writing, you are absolutely
>>> right about that as well. One thing I've realized since working as a
>>> sysadmin is, you don't come across developers or support personnel who
>>> understands infrastructure or understands something simple as how the
>>> OS you are running boots. My writing skills sucks, and my project
>>> management is improving. The little I know of both has helped me deal
>>> with these two groups of people which lead to us "Solving hard
>>> business oriented problems". I've also noticed some people in IT just
>>> stopped learning, and sadly some of these people are now managers, so
>>> knowing how to articulate something in writing can take you a long
>>> way.
>>
>> The latter is quite sad actually =(
>
> it makes me money.
>
> marc
>
>
>
> --
> Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
> --Albert Camus
>
> ?The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
> of other people's money.
> --Margaret Thatcher
>



-- 
swygue neron --->>


From george at ceetonetechnology.com  Wed Mar 31 12:39:05 2010
From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:39:05 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] meeting idea
Message-ID: <4BB37AA9.8040601@ceetonetechnology.com>

We have the next three or so meetings (pretty much) set right now. . .

But for another "open" type meeting, like the December meeting on "Your 
Tips as Presents" (http://www.nycbug.org/index.php?NAV=Home;SUBM=10239), 
how about a similar format with a bunch of people illustrating a 
port/package that:

* they use

* that is solves a common problem

* that others probably don't know about or aren't using for a particular 
problem

I've noticed that after a default install of *any* BSD box, many people 
  have a few ports that they always install immediately. . . often 
regardless of the role of the box.

No, not perl, sudo (on non-OpenBSD boxes), or some standard shell.

More like xtail, mtr, whatever.

Thoughts on this?

g



From cwolsen at ubixos.com  Wed Mar 31 12:39:46 2010
From: cwolsen at ubixos.com (Christopher Olsen)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:39:46 -0400
Subject: [nycbug-talk] Onsite Help
Message-ID: <000301cad0f0$c6ef9940$54cecbc0$@com>













Hey Guys,












Anyone here in the NJ area or know someone in the NJ area(east hanover) that
can lend a hand and is familiar with networking.. One ofour clients is hard
down with their network and we can use a set of hands onsite.












-Christopher





















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