[nycbug-talk] Request for Review, Summary of FreeBSD src fetching problems

Marc Spitzer mspitzer at gmail.com
Fri Feb 15 11:15:45 EST 2013

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 1:35 AM, Brett Wynkoop <nycbug at wynn.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:28:20 -0500
> Marc Spitzer <mspitzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Brian Callahan <bcallah at devio.us>
> > wrote:
> >
> > How is source access not easy?  just install svn and you have it.  Is
> > there a hard step I am missing?
> Let's start with....maybe you do not have /usr/ports or
> want /usr/ports.  It is not a good practice to force the user to
> install ports to be able to update base.  I had the same complaint with
> cvs years ago because you had to install ports to get either full  cvs
> or cvsup before you could update base.  cvs and cvsup were also both
> largish compared to just base, especially when ports gets tossed in
> just to get it.

> This issue was solved with the introduction of csup in base.

Well csup was a very new thing in base, it used to be in ports as cvsup and
written in modula-3.  And I agree with you that it is not a good thing to
not force users to install ports to upgrade their system nor in the general
to actually expect them to always compile their system from scratch, that
is why freebsd-update and binary patching are a big win for
the community because it makes the system more maintainable and much
more scaleable in production.  Comparing those big wins to you are not
happy, and a few other people may not be happy, I am fine with you are not

> >
> > again install svn and done, ie cd /usr/ports/devel/subversion && make
> > && make install is the hard way.  To be honest I have small hope of
> > anyone becoming a developer if svn is a show stopper.
> I will buy you a clue here:
> wynkoop at beaglebone:~ % uname -a
> FreeBSD beaglebone 10.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT #3: Mon Feb 11
> 18:24:59 EST 2013     root at beaglebone:/sys/arm/compile/BEAGLEBONE-DEBUG
>  arm
> wynkoop at beaglebone:~ % df -h
> Filesystem        Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
> /dev/mmcsd0s2a    7.2G    3.4G    3.2G    51%    /
> devfs             1.0k    1.0k      0B   100%    /dev
> devfs             1.0k    1.0k      0B   100%    /var/named/dev
> wynkoop at beaglebone:~ %
clue for clue: running head is not operations, it is not production, it is
development.  now how to actually fix your problem:  Put svn on a box that
these other boxes that you can put dev tools, you need only one.  Then
update that box using svn and scp over a src tarball, untar it and build
your world.

> I want to take up a huge bunch of space on my disk so I can do updates
> to base?  I do not think so.

see above simple solution that does not even require csup, now that there
is a solution that meets your criteria of only using the base system on
these tiny ARM boxes you are happy and can do exactly what you are saying
you want to do.  Glad to be of service

> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > If even one person (/business/manufacturer/**whatever) skips out on
> > > fbsd because of this svn debacle, it should be considered a massive
> > > failure in the eyes of the project and the devs, because who knows
> > > - that one person could have gone on to become the next core team
> > > member.
> > >
> He is right.  There is no telling what lost opportunities and talent
> will come from the core developers not thinking of the outer layers of
> the community as broadly as they should.

Well there is absolutely no telling either way, how many people/businesses
will walk away from the project or never use it because I have to muck
around with source on all my servers?

> >
> > one person is not a failure, let alone a debacle.  I think freebsd
> > made the right decision for freebsd from the available choices as I
> > understand it. the community of freebsd devs made the decision for
> > valid reasons as believed by the people who get to decide and some
> > people are not happy about it and blowing it out of proportion, well
> > ok life goes on.
> No one is arguing that svn is the wrong tool for full developer
> access.  The point is that for non-core developers that need source for
> updates it should not require almost as much disk space as the core of
> the OS and it should not require the installation of anything NOT
> INCLUDED IN BASE!  It should also be easy to use.

we disagree, you are fully entitled to your opinion.  The thing is I
just don't see anything other then "I want it" backing it up.  Now some
other people may agree with you, but I have not seen a case made by you
except "I want it" with the occasional argument to authority "I have been
doing it for 30 years" and people who agree with you are smart
and conversely people who disagree with you are clueless.  To put it simply
this is not a convincing or compelling argument to change anyone's mind.
 If you really want the change the way things are you need to develop a
better argument.

> > to be honest I think that the binary updates are vastly superior to
> > source updates, I get check sums, reinstall/clone is faster and when
> > build tools show up in my web server I just may have a problem.
> >
> > marc
> So marc are you saying you are going to start doing daily builds of head
> for ARM including each different board?  In the ARM world there is no
> such thing as a GENERIC kernel that will run on all arm boards.  The Pi
> can not boot the Bone kernel and it is more complex than just making
> sure the kernel is driver overloaded!
> How do I access the binary updates you are building for ARM?
To be honest at the present time I could care less about ARM boxes, they
are still in alpha near as I can tell from a real use point of view.
 People who enjoy playing with them should have fun with them and if you
are doing long term research for work great enjoy the ride.

now people have posted several reasonable solutions to your choice to not
put dev tools on your dev boxes, because you choose not to.  You have
posted no compelling arguments to support your point and you seem to be
unwilling to listen to other peoples POV or actually solve your problem by
using any of the solutions posted.  So why should I care about what you


Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.
--Albert Camus

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the
inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
-- Winston Churchill

Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense.
--John McCarthy
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