From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Sat Jun 1 12:50:36 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 12:50:36 -0400 Subject: [talk] Next NYC*BUG: 6/5 @ Suspenders Message-ID: <62DE2AA2-7752-40C7-8B68-74B9B678FBA1@gmail.com> Hello All, The Next NYC*BUG will be at Suspenders 6/5 at 18:45 (website should be updated shortly) It will be a BOF meeting discussing possible future topics, renewed BUG resources offered at BSDCan and general *BSD chat. There will also be swag snagged for the group from BSDCan. From fjo-lists at ogris.de Sat Jun 1 19:02:00 2019 From: fjo-lists at ogris.de (Felix J. Ogris) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 01:02:00 +0200 Subject: [talk] ZFS v UFS on APU2 msata SSD with FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3f63064f-a8f7-d75d-9059-7b83329917c1@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <3f63064f-a8f7-d75d-9059-7b83329917c1@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: Hi, I have been running FreeBSD with ZFS on a Crucial mSATA SSD for 4.5 years now. Started with an APU, I recently upgraded to an APU2. Smartctl reports 34 power cycles, and more than 36700 power on hours. My APU/2 runs the latest FreeBSD amd64 12-RELEASE and serves as a typical dialup router with ppp, pf, ftp-proxy, isc-dhcpd, and named. It also runs musicpd to stream Internet radio and MP3s to internal clients, as well as samba, nginx, and avahi-daemon to stream TV shows recorded by webcamd+tvheadend to our TV set. For fun, ctld exports one ZFS volume via iSCSI to an occasionally powered on VM on a Linux box running qemu+kvm. ZFS ARC compression fluctuates around 1.7:1 to 1.8:1. Currently, 90 megs of RAM are free, while 150 are swapped out. Swap behavior on FreeBSD 12 seems to have improved compared to 11, where >1000 megs of swap accumulated over runtime. For me, ZFS is a must on such a small and loaded machine, which runs 24/7. Snapshots give me incremental backups; haven't had any inconsistency issues nor long fsck checks after a power reset; the periodic zfs scrub notices me when it's finally time to buy a new SSD. Despite PC Engines asks users of FreeBSD based operating systems to use the legacy BIOS, I successfully flashrom'ed v4.9.0.5. However, the APU2 or more likely the em driver seem to very picky about network cables. I had no luck with old CAT5 cables or when selecting 100 MBit link speed manually. Use CAT5e cables at least and make sure autoneg works on all connected devices. HTH, Felix From jim at netgate.com Sat Jun 1 22:14:17 2019 From: jim at netgate.com (Jim Thompson) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 21:14:17 -0500 Subject: [talk] ZFS v UFS on APU2 msata SSD with FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3f63064f-a8f7-d75d-9059-7b83329917c1@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <41A862D9-66CF-42FE-81D2-CE04F1F45A15@netgate.com> Beyond ZFS, you might have a look at boot environments. Alan Jude has given some great talks about this at recent conferences (and accomplished a lot of the work behind the talks, of course). https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/zfs_powered_magic_upgrades/attachments/slides/3340/export/events/attachments/zfs_powered_magic_upgrades/slides/3340/ZFS_Magic_Upgrades.pdf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcdFln0vO4U We?re investigating ZFS with boot environment as an idea for a future version of pfsense, with the APU2 and small ARM64 systems as the base (smallest) target. With boot environments we can roll forwards or backwards to any release that?s been installed, and not removed. Boot environments also don?t require us to waste space by creating disk partitions, so, even on an 8GB flash we could easily have 20-30 upgrade points, depending again on how much has changed between releases. If every single bit changed, (which is unlikely), we could only accommodate 8GB/N versions of the system, but, even so, we?d still have a much more flexible system to work with because of the preservation of history and the labeling of the snapshots (releases). The experiments on systems as small as 8GB ?storage?/4GB ?RAM? have panned out thusfar. Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Sun Jun 2 11:17:30 2019 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 11:17:30 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS v UFS on APU2 msata SSD with FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <41A862D9-66CF-42FE-81D2-CE04F1F45A15@netgate.com> References: <3f63064f-a8f7-d75d-9059-7b83329917c1@ceetonetechnology.com> <41A862D9-66CF-42FE-81D2-CE04F1F45A15@netgate.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, June 1, 2019, Jim Thompson wrote: > > Beyond ZFS, you might have a look at boot environments. Alan Jude has > given some great talks about this at recent conferences (and accomplished a > lot of the work behind the talks, of course). > > https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/zfs_powered_ > magic_upgrades/attachments/slides/3340/export/events/ > attachments/zfs_powered_magic_upgrades/slides/3340/ZFS_Magic_Upgrades.pdf > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcdFln0vO4U > > > We?re investigating ZFS with boot environment as an idea for a future > version of pfsense, with the APU2 and small ARM64 systems as the base > (smallest) target. > > With boot environments we can roll forwards or backwards to any release > that?s been installed, and not removed. Boot environments also don?t > require us to waste space by creating disk partitions, so, even on an 8GB > flash we could easily have 20-30 upgrade points, depending again on how > much has changed between releases. > > If every single bit changed, (which is unlikely), we could only > accommodate 8GB/N versions of the system, but, even so, we?d still have a > much more flexible system to work with because of the preservation of > history and the labeling of the snapshots (releases). > > The experiments on systems as small as 8GB ?storage?/4GB ?RAM? have panned > out thusfar. > > Jim > > One thing to note. Once I was at a large company that loved their bad. It was the best operating system EVR. It was also "so much faster then linux'. So for argument sake. I made a test. Tar -xf apache-http.tar.gz cd apache * ./configure && make && make install It took much longer in free bsd. One key reason was that for ufs stock untarring Apache took about 40 seconds. (1ms with stock redhat ext3) This was related to (dont quote me on this) the fact that all metadat operations are synchronous and when unpacking something with a lot of tiny files it was very noticable. Apparently the cure was enabling soft updates (or something) but at that point I lost interest because I was unwilling to get into a holy war with 'fanboy' sysadmins that had failed to notice that after working with free bsd for like 10 years that it takes 40 seconds to unpack a tar file. Anyway that even gave me a bias. I equated ufs to fat16. Great to boot on (store 30ish never changing files) but not something I want to store any application data on. I will happily run xfs zfs or ext4. Note also at that time we had a few outages and when ufs came up we had to choose. That was odd to. I have ext3/4 nix laptops that run out of power while compiling or whatever. Sometimes they do come up without recent changes , but they never come up unclean. When I was logging into those ufs machines over an ilo yo run chkdisk I felt like I was living in a time warp, like AOL still sending me floppies in the mail. Why did a fs so "synchronous" that it takes 40 seconds to unpack a tar come up unclear so often. -- Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than usual. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Thu Jun 6 11:31:00 2019 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 15:31:00 +0000 Subject: [talk] last night's meeting: a new approach? Message-ID: <926bfc24-092b-a363-d564-c0cccf6cf9cc@ceetonetechnology.com> We had ten or so people around some tables in a quiet area of Suspenders last night, and had meandering but insightful discussions. It was the perfect format to raise those topics that don't fit into a meeting, yet collective discussion can bring about fruitful output. We discussed everything from dealing with serial device-naming and py-serial, network-level exception reporting, the current Firefox on OpenBSD.. Patrick took some notes which can hopefully be dumped on the www site. We didn't even get to BSDCan... In the event we don't have a meeting speaker, and there's interest, we should consider doing another "BSD round (square?) table" Everyone is dealing with interesting problems or solutions regularly, and having a format to spread the knowledge is worthwhile. g From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Thu Jun 6 12:18:28 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Patrick McEvoy) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 12:18:28 -0400 Subject: [talk] last night's meeting: a new approach? In-Reply-To: <926bfc24-092b-a363-d564-c0cccf6cf9cc@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <926bfc24-092b-a363-d564-c0cccf6cf9cc@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <5CF93CD4.9010101@gmail.com> George Rosamond wrote: > We had ten or so people around some tables in a quiet area of Suspenders last night, and had meandering but insightful discussions. > > It was the perfect format to raise those topics that don't fit into a meeting, yet collective discussion can bring about fruitful output. > > We discussed everything from dealing with serial device-naming and py-serial, network-level exception reporting, the current Firefox on OpenBSD.. Patrick took some notes which can hopefully be dumped on the www site. We didn't even get to BSDCan... > > In the event we don't have a meeting speaker, and there's interest, we should consider doing another "BSD round (square?) table" > > Everyone is dealing with interesting problems or solutions regularly, and having a format to spread the knowledge is worthwhile. > > g > The SEMIBug folks do a similar "what are you wrestling with" segment at the end of their meetings. The funny part is they did not stream that part of the meeting with the simple explanation " If you want to know, show up!" Not a bad way to handle it. And it keeps the advice given the unvarnished truth rather than what you would say with "The Internet" looking over your shoulder. Notes were indeed taken and will be edited down for public consumption. We have meetings for July, Aug, and possibly even Sept lined up. Write-ups to follow in the days to come. Be well, P From nonesuch at longcount.org Thu Jun 6 12:36:30 2019 From: nonesuch at longcount.org (Mark Saad) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:36:30 -0400 Subject: [talk] last night's meeting: a new approach? In-Reply-To: <5CF93CD4.9010101@gmail.com> References: <926bfc24-092b-a363-d564-c0cccf6cf9cc@ceetonetechnology.com> <5CF93CD4.9010101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <800CCB75-3FCF-4B0F-B295-A099C156E13E@longcount.org> On a related topic , last night we were discussing openzfs vs zfs on Linux . Well looks like Joyent is calling it quits . https://docs.joyent.com/joyent-public-cloud-eol --- Mark Saad | nonesuch at longcount.org > On Jun 6, 2019, at 12:18 PM, Patrick McEvoy wrote: > > > > George Rosamond wrote: >> We had ten or so people around some tables in a quiet area of Suspenders last night, and had meandering but insightful discussions. >> >> It was the perfect format to raise those topics that don't fit into a meeting, yet collective discussion can bring about fruitful output. >> >> We discussed everything from dealing with serial device-naming and py-serial, network-level exception reporting, the current Firefox on OpenBSD.. Patrick took some notes which can hopefully be dumped on the www site. We didn't even get to BSDCan... >> >> In the event we don't have a meeting speaker, and there's interest, we should consider doing another "BSD round (square?) table" >> >> Everyone is dealing with interesting problems or solutions regularly, and having a format to spread the knowledge is worthwhile. >> >> g >> > > The SEMIBug folks do a similar "what are you wrestling with" segment at > the end of their meetings. The funny part is they did not stream that > part of the meeting with the simple explanation " If you want to know, > show up!" Not a bad way to handle it. And it keeps the advice given the > unvarnished truth rather than what you would say with "The Internet" > looking over your shoulder. Notes were indeed taken and will be edited > down for public consumption. We have meetings for July, Aug, and > possibly even Sept lined up. Write-ups to follow in the days to come. > Be well, > P > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at nomadlogic.org Thu Jun 6 13:57:05 2019 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:57:05 -0700 Subject: [talk] last night's meeting: a new approach? In-Reply-To: <800CCB75-3FCF-4B0F-B295-A099C156E13E@longcount.org> References: <926bfc24-092b-a363-d564-c0cccf6cf9cc@ceetonetechnology.com> <5CF93CD4.9010101@gmail.com> <800CCB75-3FCF-4B0F-B295-A099C156E13E@longcount.org> Message-ID: On 6/6/19 9:36 AM, Mark Saad wrote: > On a related topic , last night we were discussing openzfs vs zfs on > Linux . Well looks like Joyent is calling it quits . > > https://docs.joyent.com/joyent-public-cloud-eol wow that really sucks.? they are a bit more expensive than their competitors, but of all the platforms i've had to use i liked their approach the most.? i specifically liked how they managed network and ACL/firewall resources. -p -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Fri Jun 7 09:44:50 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Patrick McEvoy) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 09:44:50 -0400 Subject: [talk] Next NYC*Bug: Jul 10th Message-ID: <5CFA6A52.8060402@gmail.com> Next NYC*Bug: Everyday ZFS, By Brian Reynolds 2019-07-10 @ 18:45 - Suspenders, 108 Greenwich Street Typically on the second floor, otherwise on the first The ZFS storage management system from Sun Microsystems, and available for FreeBSD, is well known for data reliability in the data center. This talk will discuss using ZFS in more low key environments like the desktop, or on your laptop. More Info: https://lnkd.in/eX3RNkC From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Fri Jun 7 10:45:27 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 10:45:27 -0400 Subject: [talk] Swag requests from cons Message-ID: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> Quick survey: What does the group want swag-wise from cons? I usually just grab stickers and pens, but there are hats, bag handles and other things offered. If you want then, I will haul them. If IX Systems is giving away a FreeNAS however, Y?All are out of luck! Be well, Patrick From george at ceetonetechnology.com Fri Jun 7 10:47:00 2019 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 14:47:00 +0000 Subject: [talk] Swag requests from cons In-Reply-To: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> References: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9411886f-54af-e9f7-971d-c888549f3c22@ceetonetechnology.com> Pat McEvoy: > Quick survey: > What does the group want swag-wise from cons? I usually just grab stickers and pens, but there are hats, bag handles and other things offered. If you want then, I will haul them. If IX Systems is giving away a FreeNAS however, Y?All are out of luck! Children sized tshirts! duh! But of course most companies and projects don't do that. g From viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com Fri Jun 7 11:11:33 2019 From: viewtiful.icchan at gmail.com (Robert Menes) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:11:33 -0400 Subject: [talk] Swag requests from cons In-Reply-To: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> References: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Stickers are usually perfect. --Robert On Fri, Jun 7, 2019, 10:45 Pat McEvoy wrote: > Quick survey: > What does the group want swag-wise from cons? I usually just grab stickers > and pens, but there are hats, bag handles and other things offered. If you > want then, I will haul them. If IX Systems is giving away a FreeNAS > however, Y?All are out of luck! > > Be well, > > Patrick > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at nomadlogic.org Fri Jun 7 13:14:53 2019 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 10:14:53 -0700 Subject: [talk] Swag requests from cons In-Reply-To: <9411886f-54af-e9f7-971d-c888549f3c22@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> <9411886f-54af-e9f7-971d-c888549f3c22@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: <2ed57227-0d36-461e-10cc-263691823a41@nomadlogic.org> On 6/7/19 7:47 AM, George Rosamond wrote: > > Pat McEvoy: >> Quick survey: >> What does the group want swag-wise from cons? I usually just grab stickers and pens, but there are hats, bag handles and other things offered. If you want then, I will haul them. If IX Systems is giving away a FreeNAS however, Y?All are out of luck! > Children sized tshirts! > > duh! > > But of course most companies and projects don't do that. holy cow - couldn't agree more!? it's bad enough my son has a shirt with tux on it - but it's too big for him too!? lol. -p -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Fri Jun 7 18:05:49 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 18:05:49 -0400 Subject: [talk] Swag requests from cons In-Reply-To: <2ed57227-0d36-461e-10cc-263691823a41@nomadlogic.org> References: <41AA850E-DAF0-4B6F-A381-7B41BCD6F57D@gmail.com> <9411886f-54af-e9f7-971d-c888549f3c22@ceetonetechnology.com> <2ed57227-0d36-461e-10cc-263691823a41@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <8150287B-D2BC-47B6-AD36-6A084DF8BB39@gmail.com> > On Jun 7, 2019, at 1:14 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > >> On 6/7/19 7:47 AM, George Rosamond wrote: >> >> Pat McEvoy: >>> Quick survey: >>> What does the group want swag-wise from cons? I usually just grab stickers and pens, but there are hats, bag handles and other things offered. If you want then, I will haul them. If IX Systems is giving away a FreeNAS however, Y?All are out of luck! >> Children sized tshirts! >> >> duh! >> >> But of course most companies and projects don't do that. > > holy cow - couldn't agree more! it's bad enough my son has a shirt with tux on it - but it's too big for him too! lol. > > -p > > -- > Pete Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > @nomadlogicLA > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk 100% on the kids sizes. If they ever did that the Dads and Moms would clean them out! Fitted sizes can even be hard to come by, never mind the XLs. Guess it speaks to the diversity of the group! I will see is the FreeBSD knit caps come in small next time. Thank you for feedback. P From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Fri Jun 7 21:22:12 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 21:22:12 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff Message-ID: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> If someone this list wants this, I will grab it for you. It can not live at my house however. Shoot me your address off-list and I will drop off. I might even have a SGI webcam for you. https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/zip/d/carmel-sgi-octane-computer/6906864688.html Patrick McEvoy From christos at zoulas.com Fri Jun 7 21:28:36 2019 From: christos at zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 21:28:36 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> I does run http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/sgimips/ if it works... christos > On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Pat McEvoy wrote: > > If someone this list wants this, I will grab it for you. It can not live at my house however. > Shoot me your address off-list and I will drop off. I might even have a SGI webcam for you. > > > https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/zip/d/carmel-sgi-octane-computer/6906864688.html > > > Patrick McEvoy > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Fri Jun 7 21:53:46 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 21:53:46 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1784624D-6291-484B-8205-F1FE050CD5A9@gmail.com> > On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Pat McEvoy wrote: > > If someone this list wants this, I will grab it for you. It can not live at my house however. > Shoot me your address off-list and I will drop off. I might even have a SGI webcam for you. > > > https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/zip/d/carmel-sgi-octane-computer/6906864688.html > > > Patrick McEvoy > Ok. We have 3 takers so far. I will pick up tomorrow and drop it off next week as schedules allow. From ipsens at ripsbusker.no.eu.org Sat Jun 8 00:03:27 2019 From: ipsens at ripsbusker.no.eu.org (Ipsen S Ripsbusker) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 00:03:27 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <1784624D-6291-484B-8205-F1FE050CD5A9@gmail.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <1784624D-6291-484B-8205-F1FE050CD5A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I look forward to a September presentation about running NetBSD on SGI Octane. From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Sat Jun 8 12:30:48 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 12:30:48 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> Message-ID: <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> > On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Christos Zoulas wrote: > > I does run http://wiki.netbsd.org/ports/sgimips/ if it works... > > christos NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. > >> On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Pat McEvoy wrote: >> >> If someone this list wants this, I will grab it for you. It can not live at my house however. >> Shoot me your address off-list and I will drop off. I might even have a SGI webcam for you. >> >> >> https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/zip/d/carmel-sgi-octane-computer/6906864688.html >> >> >> Patrick McEvoy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christos at zoulas.com Sat Jun 8 12:38:28 2019 From: christos at zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 12:38:28 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> > NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. > > I did not see it, I will. I would have offered to take the Octane (I was very tempted), but I can't afford another "project" right now :-) christos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sat Jun 8 12:48:00 2019 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 16:48:00 +0000 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> Message-ID: Christos Zoulas: >> NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. >> >> > I did not see it, I will. I would have offered to take the Octane (I was very tempted), but I can't afford another "project" right now :-) Even if someone focused on running bulk package builds for one BSD or another, that would make it worthwhile. As usual, huge thanks to Patrick on facilitating things. I don't think people have any idea how much time and skills he does for everyone with misc stuff like this, or his video work. I wonder what the shape of NYC hardware porting could be with cheaper rents and larger apartments... g From spork at bway.net Sat Jun 8 14:10:13 2019 From: spork at bway.net (Charles Sprickman) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 14:10:13 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 8, 2019, at 12:48 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > > > > Christos Zoulas: >>> NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. >>> >>> >> I did not see it, I will. I would have offered to take the Octane (I was very tempted), but I can't afford another "project" right now :-) > > Even if someone focused on running bulk package builds for one BSD or another, that would make it worthwhile. > > As usual, huge thanks to Patrick on facilitating things. I don't think people have any idea how much time and skills he does for everyone with misc stuff like this, or his video work. > > I wonder what the shape of NYC hardware porting could be with cheaper rents and larger apartments? I have a garage and 1Gb/s fios and can follow instructions. On that SGI stuff, as much as I love it finding new life as a headless build box or something, there?s a part of me that would love to see a pristine Irix install on there along with tens of thousands of dollars of commercial software of the day running on it too. :) It?s wild that in the early days of computers in VFX there were multiple *nix options? Charles > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk From george at ceetonetechnology.com Sat Jun 8 14:18:00 2019 From: george at ceetonetechnology.com (George Rosamond) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 18:18:00 +0000 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> Message-ID: <008327ad-44fa-9efc-4681-18bc5c340e13@ceetonetechnology.com> Charles Sprickman: > >> On Jun 8, 2019, at 12:48 PM, George Rosamond wrote: >> >> >> >> Christos Zoulas: >>>> NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. >>>> >>>> >>> I did not see it, I will. I would have offered to take the Octane (I was very tempted), but I can't afford another "project" right now :-) >> >> Even if someone focused on running bulk package builds for one BSD or another, that would make it worthwhile. >> >> As usual, huge thanks to Patrick on facilitating things. I don't think people have any idea how much time and skills he does for everyone with misc stuff like this, or his video work. >> >> I wonder what the shape of NYC hardware porting could be with cheaper rents and larger apartments? > > I have a garage and 1Gb/s fios and can follow instructions. High-time to ban spork/chip from the list for bragging. And I mean for all three! > > On that SGI stuff, as much as I love it finding new life as a headless build box or something, there?s a part of me that would love to see a pristine Irix install on there along with tens of thousands of dollars of commercial software of the day running on it too. :) It?s wild that in the early days of computers in VFX there were multiple *nix options? Yes, definitely. It's also disturbing the think about the consequences of not being able to build base and ports on those non-x86 systems. g From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Sat Jun 8 16:20:08 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 16:20:08 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 8, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Christos Zoulas wrote: > >> NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. >> >> > I did not see it, I will. I would have offered to take the Octane (I was very tempted), but I can't afford another "project" right now :-) > > christos VAX talk was recorded and will see the light of day sooner rather than later. The format is the same as FreeBSD Dev summit talks. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Sun Jun 9 18:59:07 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2019 18:59:07 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <008327ad-44fa-9efc-4681-18bc5c340e13@ceetonetechnology.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> <16D888B0-E4DF-4D40-B305-E89B9AEC927F@zoulas.com> <7C8BD7FD-8BB5-44C1-B870-2EABF03F32DD@gmail.com> <3F4F6366-6DE3-465E-9B20-117A8F48241D@zoulas.com> <008327ad-44fa-9efc-4681-18bc5c340e13@ceetonetechnology.com> Message-ID: No news on the SGI machine yet. Will post if I hear anything. P > On Jun 8, 2019, at 2:18 PM, George Rosamond wrote: > > > > Charles Sprickman: >> >>> On Jun 8, 2019, at 12:48 PM, George Rosamond wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Christos Zoulas: >>>>> NetBSD is exactly what I was thinking of! Did you catch the stream of the BSDCan modern NetBSD on Vax ? It was good. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I did not see it, I will. I would have offered to take the Octane (I was very tempted), but I can't afford another "project" right now :-) >>> >>> Even if someone focused on running bulk package builds for one BSD or another, that would make it worthwhile. >>> >>> As usual, huge thanks to Patrick on facilitating things. I don't think people have any idea how much time and skills he does for everyone with misc stuff like this, or his video work. >>> >>> I wonder what the shape of NYC hardware porting could be with cheaper rents and larger apartments? >> >> I have a garage and 1Gb/s fios and can follow instructions. > > High-time to ban spork/chip from the list for bragging. And I mean for all three! > >> >> On that SGI stuff, as much as I love it finding new life as a headless build box or something, there?s a part of me that would love to see a pristine Irix install on there along with tens of thousands of dollars of commercial software of the day running on it too. :) It?s wild that in the early days of computers in VFX there were multiple *nix options? > > Yes, definitely. > > It's also disturbing the think about the consequences of not being able to build base and ports on those non-x86 systems. > > g > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk From ike at blackskyresearch.net Wed Jun 12 13:50:19 2019 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 13:50:19 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? Message-ID: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> Hi All, Folks who know me, know me as a ZFS user/lover since Pawel first brought it in to FreeBSD. In a previous message to talk@, I raised that there confusion about changes in ZFS "upstream". Warner Losh noted this is "maybe not well publicized". After digging around online, it sure is not well publicized- and I want to know details. Even digging through lists, (these days- *which lists* of many?) ZFS: - What excactly are these changes? - Why and how was this decided? - When is ZFS upstream supposed to be changing? - What are the technical pros/cons of this change? - What are the license implications (Linux !!!!), and what will they be in the future (GPL3)? - Am I simply having a dream, nightmare perhaps? -- I'm terribly dismayed but not panicing, FreeBSD 12.x-REL is stable and fabulous, I guess if my filesystem is going to be pulled out from under me 12.x FreeBSD could become the new 4.11-REL (which I and many others ran in some contexts for a decade past EOL for *reasons*). Anybody have any concrete info on these ZFS changes? Best, .ike On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 I wrote > The ZFS codebase changes (Linux vs OpenZFS etc?) ... > Just saying, future of ZFS on FreeBSD, this really needs some more public > understanding- and discussion on it?s own. > Warner Losh imp at bsdimp.com wrote: Sat Apr 27 13:20:27 EDT 2019 OpenZFS is moving towards rebasing its upstream from Illumos to ZoL and ZoL is expanding its coverage to include non-Linux OSes and has made explicit commitments to the OpenZFS leadership about keeping the source of truth useful for non-linux users. This has been public, but maybe not well publicized. FreeBSD is looking to rebase things to this new upstream. From pete at nomadlogic.org Wed Jun 12 14:01:42 2019 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:01:42 -0700 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/12/19 10:50 AM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > Folks who know me, know me as a ZFS user/lover since Pawel first brought it in to FreeBSD. > > In a previous message to talk@, I raised that there confusion about changes in ZFS "upstream". > > Warner Losh noted this is "maybe not well publicized". After digging around online, it sure is not well publicized- and I want to know details. Even digging through lists, (these days- *which lists* of many?) > > ZFS: > > - What excactly are these changes? > - Why and how was this decided? > - When is ZFS upstream supposed to be changing? > - What are the technical pros/cons of this change? > - What are the license implications (Linux !!!!), and what will they be in the future (GPL3)? > > - Am I simply having a dream, nightmare perhaps? > > -- > I'm terribly dismayed but not panicing, FreeBSD 12.x-REL is stable and fabulous, I guess if my filesystem is going to be pulled out from under me 12.x FreeBSD could become the new 4.11-REL (which I and many others ran in some contexts for a decade past EOL for *reasons*). > > Anybody have any concrete info on these ZFS changes? apparently this talk at bsdcan this year was very helpful: https://www.bsdcan.org/2019/schedule/events/1060.en.html from what i've heard from Alan (via teh twitters) is that the ZFSonLinux people are keen and dedicated to getting all the code under one roof via OpenZFS, and are also keen to work with the freebsd and other unix communities.? he's also been encouraging everyone to join the monthly(?) OpenZFS calls. i too have concerns with the whole linux aspect of this, but Alan is pretty vocal from what i can gather that they people working on OpenZFS on the linux side are collaborative.? Time will tell though, and I think the best way to make sure that ZFS doesn't end up depending on systemd or other linux'isms is to participate on the calls and try to be constructive if you can. -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From ike at blackskyresearch.net Wed Jun 12 14:20:21 2019 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:20:21 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Pete Wright wrote: > > > On 6/12/19 10:50 AM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Folks who know me, know me as a ZFS user/lover since Pawel first brought it in to FreeBSD. > > > > In a previous message to talk@, I raised that there confusion about changes in ZFS "upstream". > > > > Warner Losh noted this is "maybe not well publicized". After digging around online, it sure is not well publicized- and I want to know details. Even digging through lists, (these days- *which lists* of many?) > > > > ZFS: > > > > - What excactly are these changes? > > - Why and how was this decided? > > - When is ZFS upstream supposed to be changing? > > - What are the technical pros/cons of this change? > > - What are the license implications (Linux !!!!), and what will they be in the future (GPL3)? > > > > - Am I simply having a dream, nightmare perhaps? > > > > -- > > I'm terribly dismayed but not panicing, FreeBSD 12.x-REL is stable and fabulous, I guess if my filesystem is going to be pulled out from under me 12.x FreeBSD could become the new 4.11-REL (which I and many others ran in some contexts for a decade past EOL for *reasons*). > > > > Anybody have any concrete info on these ZFS changes? > > apparently this talk at bsdcan this year was very helpful: > > https://www.bsdcan.org/2019/schedule/events/1060.en.html > > from what i've heard from Alan (via teh twitters) is that the ZFSonLinux > people are keen and dedicated to getting all the code under one roof via > OpenZFS, and are also keen to work with the freebsd and other unix > communities.? he's also been encouraging everyone to join the monthly(?) > OpenZFS calls. Scary: sounds a wee bit tower-of-babel to me. > > i too have concerns with the whole linux aspect of this, but Alan is > pretty vocal from what i can gather that they people working on OpenZFS > on the linux side are collaborative.? Time will tell though, and I think > the best way to make sure that ZFS doesn't end up depending on systemd > or other linux'isms is to participate on the calls and try to be > constructive if you can. Thanks so much Pete- I'm still parsing the slides from what you sent... Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of things- and the future plans? (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) Best, .ike > > -pete > > -- > Pete Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > @nomadlogicLA > > From ike at blackskyresearch.net Wed Jun 12 14:33:01 2019 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:33:01 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the > FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of > things- and the future plans? > (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide deck: "Fighting the FUD ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to the illumos upstream as possible ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL code into the FreeBSD kernel ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so darned good* right now. Best, .ike From ike at blackskyresearch.net Wed Jun 12 15:43:03 2019 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 15:43:03 -0400 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project Message-ID: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Hi All, I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it all: "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of Project Governance additions." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 These are the slides from the presentation, https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 Attendees in the audience can be identified here: https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks -- Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are deeply technical.) With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation FreeBSD folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. -- For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? Best, .ike From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Wed Jun 12 16:20:00 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:20:00 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 12, 2019, at 2:33 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: >> >> Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the >> FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of >> things- and the future plans? >> (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) > > Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide deck: > > "Fighting the FUD > ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions > ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together > ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream > ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to the illumos upstream as possible > ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL code into the FreeBSD kernel > ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" > > Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so darned good* right now. > > Best, > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk The talk was well received and many felt better after hearing it. I do not know of any release date for the videos unfortunately. From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jun 12 16:46:37 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:46:37 -0600 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:35 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > > > Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the > > FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of > > things- and the future plans? > > (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) > > Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide > deck: > > "Fighting the FUD > ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions > ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together > ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream > ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to > the illumos upstream as possible > ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL code > into the FreeBSD kernel > ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" > > Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so > darned good* right now. > Basically, ZoL and FreeBSD had Illumos as our upstream. ZoL has added a bunch in a way that could be upstreamed, but weren't due to the extreme slow pace of Illumos taking changes, as well as viability issues with Illumos. FreeBSD is rebasing from Illumos to ZoL because the official upstream of OpenZFS is moving from Illumos to ZoL because the efforts of adding the missing bits since the fork to ZoL was much smaller than vice versa. ZoL is an unfortunate name because it has the trigger word Linux in it. The ZoL folks are not the LKM folks, but quite reasonable people without the GPL politics getting in the way that caused Linux to be such a trigger word. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Wed Jun 12 17:22:48 2019 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 17:22:48 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, June 12, 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:35 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < > ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: >> >> > Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the >> > FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of >> > things- and the future plans? >> > (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) >> >> Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide >> deck: >> >> "Fighting the FUD >> ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions >> ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together >> ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream >> ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to >> the illumos upstream as possible >> ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL >> code into the FreeBSD kernel >> ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" >> >> Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so >> darned good* right now. >> > > Basically, ZoL and FreeBSD had Illumos as our upstream. ZoL has added a > bunch in a way that could be upstreamed, but weren't due to the extreme > slow pace of Illumos taking changes, as well as viability issues with > Illumos. FreeBSD is rebasing from Illumos to ZoL because the official > upstream of OpenZFS is moving from Illumos to ZoL because the efforts of > adding the missing bits since the fork to ZoL was much smaller than vice > versa. ZoL is an unfortunate name because it has the trigger word Linux in > it. The ZoL folks are not the LKM folks, but quite reasonable people > without the GPL politics getting in the way that caused Linux to be such a > trigger word. > > Warner > Microsoft tried to go after folks like garmin just for using fat16. Data on disk is owned by you. The code that happens to read or write the data to a specific format can be copyrighted by x and licensed with y. Look at xfs. It is basically universal and the world is better off for it. Having the format to take the disk to other OS s gives you more options. You can take that mysql data disk out of your Solaris machine and pop it into your freebsd machine assuming big e little e is the same. Winning. Then take it to a linux machine. Winning. -- Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than usual. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ike at blackskyresearch.net Wed Jun 12 17:27:35 2019 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 17:27:35 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <99203d61-6461-4d5b-8f35-dea2334fd1ca@www.fastmail.com> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 4:46 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:35 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy > wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > > > > > Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the > > > FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of > > > things- and the future plans? > > > (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) > > > > Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide deck: > > > > "Fighting the FUD > > ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions > > ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together > > ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream > > ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to the illumos upstream as possible > > ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL code into the FreeBSD kernel > > ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" > > > > Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so darned good* right now. > > Basically, ZoL and FreeBSD had Illumos as our upstream. ZoL has added a > bunch in a way that could be upstreamed, but weren't due to the extreme > slow pace of Illumos taking changes, as well as viability issues with > Illumos. FreeBSD is rebasing from Illumos to ZoL because the official > upstream of OpenZFS is moving from Illumos to ZoL because the efforts > of adding the missing bits since the fork to ZoL was much smaller than > vice versa. ZoL is an unfortunate name because it has the trigger word > Linux in it. The ZoL folks are not the LKM folks, but quite reasonable > people without the GPL politics getting in the way that caused Linux to > be such a trigger word. > > Warner Thanks Warner, very much appreciate this statement- a relief to see an excellent and clearly rational future for ZFS on FreeBSD! Looks like my paranoia was all due to: - Anything changing my filesystem makes me edgy - Linux/politics fud, looks like I got bit! Best, .ike From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jun 12 18:15:36 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:15:36 -0600 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > Hi All, > > I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it all: > > "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of Project > Governance additions." > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 > > These are the slides from the presentation, > > https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 > > Attendees in the audience can be identified here: > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks > > -- > Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and challenges > he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to influence from > the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive conversation, > whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I believe are near > and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. > > For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my life > around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries hard > not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and > valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The > talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are > deeply technical.) > > With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, and > openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a commendation > from the community for raising these issues- and that this presentation > should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation FreeBSD > folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for projects we all > care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. > > -- > For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd > love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? > > In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's > biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the > obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) > > Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do people > have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? Any > constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? > It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so much passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through because he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies (FreeBSD core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, despite having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a number of his points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for example). It was poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. I had dozens of private messages from other people in the room commenting on just how painful it was to sit through in person. But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone because he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to correct the context, he persisted in those lies. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jun 12 18:24:17 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:24:17 -0600 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 4:15 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < > ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it all: >> >> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of Project >> Governance additions." >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >> >> These are the slides from the presentation, >> >> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >> >> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >> >> -- >> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >> >> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >> deeply technical.) >> >> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, and >> openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a commendation >> from the community for raising these issues- and that this presentation >> should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation FreeBSD >> folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for projects we all >> care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >> >> -- >> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd >> love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >> >> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >> >> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do people >> have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? Any >> constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >> > > It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so much > passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. > > This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through because > he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies (FreeBSD > core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, despite > having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a number of his > points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for example). It was > poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. I had dozens of > private messages from other people in the room commenting on just how > painful it was to sit through in person. > > But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone because > he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to correct the > context, he persisted in those lies. > Having said all that (and hitting send too soon), I'd like to add that the core team welcomes feedback that's presented in a way that's easy to digest, is well researched and done in a clueful manner. We're happy to have a dialog with someone who is genuinely interested in identifying and solving real problems with the structure of FreeBSD. However, the original bylaws were written with an implicit 'you can trust core' bias. If you can't trust core, then bylaws won't stop them from doing bad things. Of course, they were written in an era of the project that was somewhat more carefree than today and do reflect a certain naivet? of the time that's not aged well. Warner P.S. Spelling mistakes? Why did he put that in a talk on governance? ah, ok. I've had my say, I'll go back to lurking... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justin at shiningsilence.com Wed Jun 12 19:48:51 2019 From: justin at shiningsilence.com (Justin Sherrill) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 19:48:51 -0400 Subject: [talk] Remote monitoring hardware Message-ID: I have some property in Canada that has a cellmodem connection to the net, a few Nest cameras, and some weather sensors. Power is unreliable, the cell link is unreliable, temperatures can be extreme (mostly cold) and it is physically unreachable once snow hits. I'd like to set up some sort of small machine that could connect back to my network in the US and give me a way to diagnose problems, or log something more than the absence of a link. Obviously I would want to use a BSD and in a perfect world x86_64 so it could be DragonFly. Has anyone set up similar remote points and can point to what hardware and software they found useful? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Wed Jun 12 22:38:44 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 22:38:44 -0400 Subject: [talk] Remote monitoring hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 12, 2019, at 7:48 PM, Justin Sherrill wrote: > > I have some property in Canada that has a cellmodem connection to the net, a few Nest cameras, and some weather sensors. > > Power is unreliable, the cell link is unreliable, temperatures can be extreme (mostly cold) and it is physically unreachable once snow hits. I'd like to set up some sort of small machine that could connect back to my network in the US and give me a way to diagnose problems, or log something more than the absence of a link. > > Obviously I would want to use a BSD and in a perfect world x86_64 so it could be DragonFly. Has anyone set up similar remote points and can point to what hardware and software they found useful? > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk If you don?t mind wading through a BUNCH on Amateur Radio talk, you may get some good ideas from the Amateur Radio podcast. This guy has a similar situation where he keeps an eye on property from a distance. I was particularly interested in his use of GSM cell network power switches. https://www.qsotoday.com/podcasts/VK5SW Enjoy and please share you thoughts / solutions. This could be a fantastic talk too! P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Wed Jun 12 23:47:40 2019 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 23:47:40 -0400 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < > ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it all: >> >> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of Project >> Governance additions." >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >> >> These are the slides from the presentation, >> >> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >> >> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >> >> -- >> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >> >> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >> deeply technical.) >> >> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, and >> openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a commendation >> from the community for raising these issues- and that this presentation >> should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation FreeBSD >> folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for projects we all >> care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >> >> -- >> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd >> love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >> >> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >> >> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do people >> have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? Any >> constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >> > > It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so much > passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. > > This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through because > he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies (FreeBSD > core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, despite > having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a number of his > points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for example). It was > poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. I had dozens of > private messages from other people in the room commenting on just how > painful it was to sit through in person. > > But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone because > he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to correct the > context, he persisted in those lies. > > Warner > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > Just a note: The presentation references this code here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016 Random observation. "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda useless here." Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people more, instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It says, "I have considered these scenarios. Please provide some other ones if you want to discuss a different imp." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jun 13 02:45:28 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 00:45:28 -0600 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM Edward Capriolo wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < >> ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it >>> all: >>> >>> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of >>> Project Governance additions." >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >>> >>> These are the slides from the presentation, >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >>> >>> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >>> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >>> >>> -- >>> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >>> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >>> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >>> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >>> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >>> >>> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >>> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >>> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >>> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >>> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >>> deeply technical.) >>> >>> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, and >>> openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a commendation >>> from the community for raising these issues- and that this presentation >>> should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation FreeBSD >>> folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for projects we all >>> care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >>> >>> -- >>> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd >>> love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >>> >>> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >>> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >>> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >>> >>> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do people >>> have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? Any >>> constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >>> >> >> It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so much >> passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. >> >> This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through because >> he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies (FreeBSD >> core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, despite >> having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a number of his >> points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for example). It was >> poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. I had dozens of >> private messages from other people in the room commenting on just how >> painful it was to sit through in person. >> >> But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone because >> he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to correct the >> context, he persisted in those lies. >> >> Warner >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > > Just a note: The presentation references this code here: > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016 > > Random observation. > > "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters > because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda > useless here." > This I said. It's fair criticism that it's not my most articulate work. However, one uses strnlen when one has a potentially unbounded string. snprintf ensures the strings are bounded, so strnlen was actually useless there. I should have state that more directly. > Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people more, > instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It says, "I > have considered these scenarios. Please provide some other ones if you > want to discuss a different imp." > I said none of those things. And you are quoting them out of context (the first is a paraphrase of something araujo said, the second wasn't said in the review). In addition, a test case here would just be asking the contributor to do work I knew couldn't possibly be done. Asking for a test case for a change that static analysis says is useless seems counter productive. Providing feedback that a change is incorrect is what the review process is all about. But what does that have to do with project governance? Sure, I can see that it's a criticism of how we try to recruit and retain people, but even then it's a bad example of that. It's as relevant to the stated goals of this talk as this spelling examples. At least the impeachment example was on topic, even if it was so poorly researched as to get corrected immediately after being put up by those in the room. So what action plan came out of the discussion? Or was it just a bitch session designed to stoke anger w/o presenting any actionable suggestions? Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 08:14:19 2019 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 08:14:19 -0400 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM Edward Capriolo > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh wrote: >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < >>> ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it >>>> all: >>>> >>>> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of >>>> Project Governance additions." >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >>>> >>>> These are the slides from the presentation, >>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3- >>>> QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >>>> >>>> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >>>> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >>>> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >>>> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >>>> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >>>> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >>>> >>>> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >>>> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >>>> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >>>> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >>>> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >>>> deeply technical.) >>>> >>>> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, >>>> and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a >>>> commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this >>>> presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation >>>> FreeBSD folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for >>>> projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), >>>> I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >>>> >>>> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >>>> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >>>> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >>>> >>>> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do >>>> people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? >>>> Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >>>> >>> >>> It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so much >>> passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. >>> >>> This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through because >>> he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies (FreeBSD >>> core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, despite >>> having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a number of his >>> points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for example). It was >>> poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. I had dozens of >>> private messages from other people in the room commenting on just how >>> painful it was to sit through in person. >>> >>> But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone >>> because he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to >>> correct the context, he persisted in those lies. >>> >>> Warner >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk mailing list >>> talk at lists.nycbug.org >>> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >> >> Just a note: The presentation references this code here: >> >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016 >> >> Random observation. >> >> "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters >> because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda >> useless here." >> > > This I said. It's fair criticism that it's not my most articulate work. > However, one uses strnlen when one has a potentially unbounded string. > snprintf ensures the strings are bounded, so strnlen was actually useless > there. I should have state that more directly. > > >> Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people >> more, instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It >> says, "I have considered these scenarios. Please provide some other ones >> if you want to discuss a different imp." >> > > I said none of those things. And you are quoting them out of context (the > first is a paraphrase of something araujo said, the second wasn't said in > the review). In addition, a test case here would just be asking the > contributor to do work I knew couldn't possibly be done. Asking for a test > case for a change that static analysis says is useless seems counter > productive. Providing feedback that a change is incorrect is what the > review process is all about. > > But what does that have to do with project governance? Sure, I can see > that it's a criticism of how we try to recruit and retain people, but even > then it's a bad example of that. It's as relevant to the stated goals of > this talk as this spelling examples. At least the impeachment example was > on topic, even if it was so poorly researched as to get corrected > immediately after being put up by those in the room. So what action plan > came out of the discussion? Or was it just a bitch session designed to > stoke anger w/o presenting any actionable suggestions? > > Warner > Its governance to say. No code without tests. No code without peer review. No self merges. The later 2 things force you to get more buy in. -- Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than usual. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlinuxguru at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 08:30:50 2019 From: edlinuxguru at gmail.com (Edward Capriolo) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 08:30:50 -0400 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2019, Edward Capriolo wrote: > > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM Edward Capriolo >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < >>>> ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it >>>>> all: >>>>> >>>>> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of >>>>> Project Governance additions." >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >>>>> >>>>> These are the slides from the presentation, >>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTA >>>>> lyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >>>>> >>>>> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >>>>> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >>>>> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >>>>> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >>>>> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >>>>> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >>>>> >>>>> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >>>>> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >>>>> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >>>>> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >>>>> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >>>>> deeply technical.) >>>>> >>>>> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, >>>>> and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a >>>>> commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this >>>>> presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation >>>>> FreeBSD folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for >>>>> projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), >>>>> I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >>>>> >>>>> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >>>>> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >>>>> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >>>>> >>>>> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do >>>>> people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? >>>>> Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so >>>> much passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. >>>> >>>> This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through >>>> because he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies >>>> (FreeBSD core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, >>>> despite having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a >>>> number of his points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for >>>> example). It was poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. >>>> I had dozens of private messages from other people in the room commenting >>>> on just how painful it was to sit through in person. >>>> >>>> But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone >>>> because he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to >>>> correct the context, he persisted in those lies. >>>> >>>> Warner >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk mailing list >>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org >>>> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk >>>> >>> >>> Just a note: The presentation references this code here: >>> >>> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016 >>> >>> Random observation. >>> >>> "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters >>> because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda >>> useless here." >>> >> >> This I said. It's fair criticism that it's not my most articulate work. >> However, one uses strnlen when one has a potentially unbounded string. >> snprintf ensures the strings are bounded, so strnlen was actually useless >> there. I should have state that more directly. >> >> >>> Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people >>> more, instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It >>> says, "I have considered these scenarios. Please provide some other ones >>> if you want to discuss a different imp." >>> >> >> I said none of those things. And you are quoting them out of context (the >> first is a paraphrase of something araujo said, the second wasn't said in >> the review). In addition, a test case here would just be asking the >> contributor to do work I knew couldn't possibly be done. Asking for a test >> case for a change that static analysis says is useless seems counter >> productive. Providing feedback that a change is incorrect is what the >> review process is all about. >> >> But what does that have to do with project governance? Sure, I can see >> that it's a criticism of how we try to recruit and retain people, but even >> then it's a bad example of that. It's as relevant to the stated goals of >> this talk as this spelling examples. At least the impeachment example was >> on topic, even if it was so poorly researched as to get corrected >> immediately after being put up by those in the room. So what action plan >> came out of the discussion? Or was it just a bitch session designed to >> stoke anger w/o presenting any actionable suggestions? >> >> Warner >> > > Its governance to say. No code without tests. No code without peer review. > No self merges. > > The later 2 things force you to get more buy in. > > > -- > Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than > usual. > For example in many Asf projects these rules are in place. If a committee argues a -1 with a valid reason the feature is blocked. I'm not exactly sure what the context of this review and process was. However I think I see: Code without a solid test plan or tests (I dont understand how to test it). A comment about the size of a string. With a different type of governance in place: Person 1: I am -1 on this change because of large strings will cause it to fail. Person 2: I have provided unit test which shows your case is not an issue. Person 1: You are right. I retract my - 1. Person 3: I like the fix as well. I will merge to master/feature branch. I'm not advocating that is how the project should work but or trying to nitpick this issue but since it was specifically mentioned it is worth discussing other ways things could have went. -- Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than usual. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ike at blackskyresearch.net Thu Jun 13 09:59:06 2019 From: ike at blackskyresearch.net (Isaac (.ike) Levy) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:59:06 -0400 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <8cddbb42-174f-434e-a43d-f34d340fc527@www.fastmail.com> Hi Warner, First off, I just want to state that I have great respect for your work on FreeBSD for many years. We've all put so much of our lives into the *BSD's, I think it's worth recognizing and respecting everyone's shared investment- and Warner, yours is immense. Obviously, this presentation (or presenter) touched a nerve for you- and while that's understandable, I find it unfortunate that your responses to this thread have effectively sucked all the air out of the room toward discussing the meat of the topic at hand. Werner, this thread wasn't about you, but it sure is now- before this thread even got into any of the interesting points. So, instead of constructively making progress discussing the FreeBSD Foudnation and it's working relationship to the project, I'll address some of your high points inline: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it all: > > > > "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of Project Governance additions." > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 > > > > These are the slides from the presentation, > > https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 > > > > Attendees in the audience can be identified here: > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks > > > > -- > > Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. > > > > For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are deeply technical.) > > > > With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation FreeBSD folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. > > > > -- > > For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? > > > > In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) > > > > Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? > > It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so > much passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. > > This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through > because he belabored so many points, I've seen far worse presentations, (heck, even given some). MD was certainly wrong on a few points, and conceded them to move forward. Watching the video, MD is speaking with an audience of outright hostile participants, unwilling to stop and listen- interrupting consistently, and I can see it was certainly difficult for MD to keep things focused on the points raised. With that, it sure as heck wasn't a slick presentation, given by a polished motivational speaker or skilled salesman, but I think the patience, directness, and openness MD exhibited to get the points of that presentation communicated was admirable. There were even some good jokes in the material, IMHO. > committed so many logical > fallacies (FreeBSD core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely > different things, despite having the word FreeBSD in them, for > example). MD is not at all alone in feeling that the boundaries between the Foundation and the project have become dangerously ambiguous. This alone is worth a deeper discussion. > In addition, a number of his points were just wrong (yes, you > can impeach core, for example). It was poorly researched, poorly > organized and poorly presented. I had dozens of private messages from > other people in the room commenting on just how painful it was to sit > through in person. If that's true, then I feel these others in the room are not behaving in a manner worthy of their respective stations. If you don't like a presentation, leave the room. Otherwise, listen and engage like adults. Private messages bemoaning a presenter, while he's presenting, is frankly juvenile- and unacceptable behavior for anyone on Core, or in the FreeBSD foundation. A number of critiques raised would very much make the FreeBSD core team, and Foundation folks, uncomfortable. That's the nature of criticism. It sucks. It's difficult to not take personally, difficult to overcome emotion to understand how to respond to criticism. Handling criticism is just a core aspect of being in positions of leadership or administrative power. MD is not some random person screaming at core on the street- MD spent his time trying to communicate his criticisms in the most appropriate, direct format possible- by looking everyone in the eye and trying to open a dialogue. It's unfortunate that he would not be heard, and shameful that he would be personally attacked. It's an even bigger waste that this thread is now about discussing this trivium, not the topics raised. > > But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone > because he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to > correct the context, he persisted in those lies. Warner, for the sake of the project, I hope you can get to a place where you can openly, and calmly, listen and see that the points raised are far bigger than your specific context. This drama does nothing for the project, focusing back on the issues does. With my best intentions I also believe you should perhaps consider taking some time out of Core, to get a break and some perspective- and perhaps return again with a broader and more constructive outlook! Best, .ike > > Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jun 13 10:50:56 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 08:50:56 -0600 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: <8cddbb42-174f-434e-a43d-f34d340fc527@www.fastmail.com> References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> <8cddbb42-174f-434e-a43d-f34d340fc527@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 7:59 AM Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > MD is not at all alone in feeling that the boundaries between the > Foundation and the project have become dangerously ambiguous. This alone > is worth a deeper discussion. > Agreed. However, the Foundation isn't governing the project today. Like anybody else with money and interest, they are funding different things, but they have no say in the day-to-day operations of the project. If there's areas I'm blind to where that's not the case, I'm all ears. > A number of critiques raised would very much make the FreeBSD core team, > and Foundation folks, uncomfortable. That's the nature of criticism. It > sucks. It's difficult to not take personally, difficult to overcome > emotion to understand how to respond to criticism. Handling criticism is > just a core aspect of being in positions of leadership or administrative > power. > Agreed too. However, if I can't counter the points made, especially when they are not factually correct, how can that criticism result in any real change? Criticism is a two way street, and what's needed is a dialog. And this session was real-time feedback to his criticism with criticism of the criticism. > MD is not some random person screaming at core on the street- MD spent his > time trying to communicate his criticisms in the most appropriate, direct > format possible- by looking everyone in the eye and trying to open a > dialogue. It's unfortunate that he would not be heard, and shameful that > he would be personally attacked. > Let's just say we disagree on this point: he was heard and people in the room reacted not personally to him, but rather to the points he was making. This was a developer summit, and the notion of the talk was that it would be a discussion. Discussions involve give and take, and in small groups interruptions are the norm. It's not like the more formal part of the conference where it's supposed to be more of a presentation. Keep in mind that many of the people in the room had been involved in the project closely for a long time so are the experts on how things work. It didn't help that Mr Dexter was unwilling to concede that many of his points omitted critical context that when present undermined the very points he was trying to make. All of that makes it hard for me to see whatever kernels of truth might be hidden in his talk, so below I ask for someone to dig them out so they can be discussed. I agree completely with your point that we should separate the message from the messenger to see what might be there or not. > It's an even bigger waste that this thread is now about discussing this > trivium, not the topics raised. > Perhaps you could go through the video and briefly summarize his points? The room was unreceptive to many of them because they perceived the issues that weren't actual problems, or because his points were severely undermined because he didn't take the time to research relevance, truthfulness and greater context of the statements he was making. The points were further obscured by equivocation and inclusion of useless trivia (spelling? Really?). So to get away from all that, perhaps someone can summarize a few of his key points for discussion to avoid the distraction of his presentation. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jun 13 11:09:09 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:09:09 -0600 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:14 AM Edward Capriolo wrote: > > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM Edward Capriolo >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < >>>> ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it >>>>> all: >>>>> >>>>> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of >>>>> Project Governance additions." >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >>>>> >>>>> These are the slides from the presentation, >>>>> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >>>>> >>>>> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >>>>> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >>>>> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >>>>> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >>>>> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >>>>> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >>>>> >>>>> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >>>>> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >>>>> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >>>>> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >>>>> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >>>>> deeply technical.) >>>>> >>>>> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, >>>>> and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a >>>>> commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this >>>>> presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation >>>>> FreeBSD folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for >>>>> projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), >>>>> I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >>>>> >>>>> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >>>>> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >>>>> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >>>>> >>>>> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do >>>>> people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? >>>>> Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so >>>> much passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. >>>> >>>> This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through >>>> because he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies >>>> (FreeBSD core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, >>>> despite having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a >>>> number of his points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for >>>> example). It was poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. >>>> I had dozens of private messages from other people in the room commenting >>>> on just how painful it was to sit through in person. >>>> >>>> But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone >>>> because he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to >>>> correct the context, he persisted in those lies. >>>> >>>> Warner >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk mailing list >>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org >>>> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk >>>> >>> >>> Just a note: The presentation references this code here: >>> >>> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016 >>> >>> Random observation. >>> >>> "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters >>> because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda >>> useless here." >>> >> >> This I said. It's fair criticism that it's not my most articulate work. >> However, one uses strnlen when one has a potentially unbounded string. >> snprintf ensures the strings are bounded, so strnlen was actually useless >> there. I should have state that more directly. >> >> >>> Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people >>> more, instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It >>> says, "I have considered these scenarios. Please provide some other ones >>> if you want to discuss a different imp." >>> >> >> I said none of those things. And you are quoting them out of context (the >> first is a paraphrase of something araujo said, the second wasn't said in >> the review). In addition, a test case here would just be asking the >> contributor to do work I knew couldn't possibly be done. Asking for a test >> case for a change that static analysis says is useless seems counter >> productive. Providing feedback that a change is incorrect is what the >> review process is all about. >> >> But what does that have to do with project governance? Sure, I can see >> that it's a criticism of how we try to recruit and retain people, but even >> then it's a bad example of that. It's as relevant to the stated goals of >> this talk as this spelling examples. At least the impeachment example was >> on topic, even if it was so poorly researched as to get corrected >> immediately after being put up by those in the room. So what action plan >> came out of the discussion? Or was it just a bitch session designed to >> stoke anger w/o presenting any actionable suggestions? >> >> Warner >> > > Its governance to say. No code without tests. No code without peer review. > No self merges. > > The later 2 things force you to get more buy in. > The project has a 25-odd year history. When we started, those were not the norms. They have become more the norm in the project in recent years, though the no self merges thing is not really possible with our current tooling. The stress2 tests have been enhanced to catch all kinds of errors and edge cases in the kernel. The atf and kyua tests have grown in recent years. Core recently strongly encouraged all non-trivial changes be code reviewed. And the review in question was bad code that was rightly rejected and the reasons given. So if that example was supposed to elicit this discussion, it ignored a lot of what's been going on in the project to make these areas better and it poorly articulated the relevance. It was also a bad example to pick since the code in question was unquestionably not acceptable. There are much better examples of things that languish in phabricator. There's some that are good examples of code that's useful, but not perfect (useful enough to be included if things can't be fixed), like the bhyve migration code review... Part of the problem is that we as a project don't have enough reviewers, and we've not been good about getting people to break changes into smaller bits so that the undisputed parts go in quickly, reducing the 'chaff' in the reviews to the meat of the issue. There are other reviews that are so chaotic and scattered that they are useless. There's one for the boot loader that tries to make things better, but has so many different issues jumbled together, and at spots has poor coding techniques to do these by a submitter who doesn't speak english natively and whose SCM skills are lacking. Its really hard to take that and do something useful with it, and getting that change broken up, both in the review and via back channels, has been frustrating. there's dozens of other reviews that were small, bite sized, that had issues that the submitter corrected and they landed in the tree. For all its flaws, Phabricator is light years ahead of doing it in email in a mailing list that's archived, but where issues aren't tracked. So sure, that's good advice. The project has a history and change sometimes is a bit slow, but is happening. And more needs to change. Hopefully the git working group can solve many of these structural issues when they convene. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kmsujit at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 13:09:42 2019 From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 22:39:42 +0530 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 5:44 PM Edward Capriolo wrote: > > > On Thursday, June 13, 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM Edward Capriolo >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy < >>>> ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it >>>>> all: >>>>> >>>>> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of >>>>> Project Governance additions." >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0 >>>>> >>>>> These are the slides from the presentation, >>>>> >>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5 >>>>> >>>>> Attendees in the audience can be identified here: >>>>> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and >>>>> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to >>>>> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation. It's a tough but constructive >>>>> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I >>>>> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG. >>>>> >>>>> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my >>>>> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally). MD tries >>>>> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and >>>>> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks. The >>>>> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are >>>>> deeply technical.) >>>>> >>>>> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness, >>>>> and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a >>>>> commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this >>>>> presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation >>>>> FreeBSD folks. Criticism and introspection is always difficult for >>>>> projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), >>>>> I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? >>>>> >>>>> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's >>>>> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the >>>>> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) >>>>> >>>>> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do >>>>> people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues? >>>>> Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation? >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so >>>> much passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies. >>>> >>>> This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through >>>> because he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies >>>> (FreeBSD core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things, >>>> despite having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a >>>> number of his points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for >>>> example). It was poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented. >>>> I had dozens of private messages from other people in the room commenting >>>> on just how painful it was to sit through in person. >>>> >>>> But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone >>>> because he was telling bald-faced lies about me and when I tried to >>>> correct the context, he persisted in those lies. >>>> >>>> Warner >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk mailing list >>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org >>>> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk >>>> >>> >>> Just a note: The presentation references this code here: >>> >>> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016 >>> >>> Random observation. >>> >>> "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters >>> because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda >>> useless here." >>> >> >> This I said. It's fair criticism that it's not my most articulate work. >> However, one uses strnlen when one has a potentially unbounded string. >> snprintf ensures the strings are bounded, so strnlen was actually useless >> there. I should have state that more directly. >> >> >>> Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people >>> more, instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It >>> says, "I have considered these scenarios. Please provide some other ones >>> if you want to discuss a different imp." >>> >> >> I said none of those things. And you are quoting them out of context (the >> first is a paraphrase of something araujo said, the second wasn't said in >> the review). In addition, a test case here would just be asking the >> contributor to do work I knew couldn't possibly be done. Asking for a test >> case for a change that static analysis says is useless seems counter >> productive. Providing feedback that a change is incorrect is what the >> review process is all about. >> >> But what does that have to do with project governance? Sure, I can see >> that it's a criticism of how we try to recruit and retain people, but even >> then it's a bad example of that. It's as relevant to the stated goals of >> this talk as this spelling examples. At least the impeachment example was >> on topic, even if it was so poorly researched as to get corrected >> immediately after being put up by those in the room. So what action plan >> came out of the discussion? Or was it just a bitch session designed to >> stoke anger w/o presenting any actionable suggestions? >> >> Warner >> > > Its governance to say. No code without tests. No code without peer review. > No self merges. > > The later 2 things force you to get more buy in. > Then why do you think that there are bugs. > > > -- > Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than > usual. > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at nomadlogic.org Thu Jun 13 14:15:02 2019 From: pete at nomadlogic.org (Pete Wright) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 11:15:02 -0700 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> References: <0f713bde-6628-4194-bc29-6b3fe58ba58d@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <6e111e21-169d-1d09-1f10-2d5f53913563@nomadlogic.org> On 6/12/19 12:43 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > -- > For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom), I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised? > > In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) thanks for sharing this .ike!? to be upfront i have only looked at the slides and haven't watched the video link (yet?).? the slides kinda make it look like its festivus and we are airing grievances ;) i do have a couple observations though: - i'm really not sure what the thesis is.? is this a critique of the fbsd foundation, how core is currently constructed or just intended as a general "let's mix the pot so we don't get stagnant"? - as someone who's been on the fringes of the BSD community for a bit and has only recently have been able to become more involved in the development process i honestly feel like the community is actually in pretty good shape.? i've seen healthy debate and a willingness to move things forward in a methodical way, and i don't feel like their are barriers to entry aside from time and willingness to contribute. - i also *really* appreciate the fact that my personal time is respected - i'd love to hack bsd 24/7 but i also have work/life obligations and those boundaries seem pretty much to be part of the culture. - i think one of the biggest hurdles that the community is facing is growing the visibility of freebsd with younger developers.? and while i appreciate what the foundation is doing here i feel like there is ample room to grow in this respect.? i've found that once i take the time and explain how BSD is different than the docker/linux world they get it and easily see how it can solve problems they run into on a daily basis.? they really like the KISS approach of Unix and frankly most of them only use docker b/c that's what they copy pasta'd off stack overflow, github, HN or whatever. so if the foundation can get better at advocating to a younger audience i think that'd be a huge win.? or maybe they shouldn't be involved and there's room for an offshoot project that hosts scripts/configs for standing up common web stacks in jails much like dockerhub?? i dunno, but i feel like freebsd in particular is viewed as not being "modern" for what ever value "modern" is.. -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 17:52:37 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:52:37 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: <99203d61-6461-4d5b-8f35-dea2334fd1ca@www.fastmail.com> References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> <99203d61-6461-4d5b-8f35-dea2334fd1ca@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <6F50970B-44A3-4232-AB76-ED95403393EA@gmail.com> On Jun 12, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 4:46 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:35 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy >> wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: >>> >>>> Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the >>>> FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of >>>> things- and the future plans? >>>> (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) >>> >>> Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide deck: >>> >>> "Fighting the FUD >>> ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions >>> ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together >>> ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream >>> ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to the illumos upstream as possible >>> ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL code into the FreeBSD kernel >>> ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" >>> >>> Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so darned good* right now. >> >> Basically, ZoL and FreeBSD had Illumos as our upstream. ZoL has added a >> bunch in a way that could be upstreamed, but weren't due to the extreme >> slow pace of Illumos taking changes, as well as viability issues with >> Illumos. FreeBSD is rebasing from Illumos to ZoL because the official >> upstream of OpenZFS is moving from Illumos to ZoL because the efforts >> of adding the missing bits since the fork to ZoL was much smaller than >> vice versa. ZoL is an unfortunate name because it has the trigger word >> Linux in it. The ZoL folks are not the LKM folks, but quite reasonable >> people without the GPL politics getting in the way that caused Linux to >> be such a trigger word. >> >> Warner > > Thanks Warner, very much appreciate this statement- a relief to see an excellent and clearly rational future for ZFS on FreeBSD! > > Looks like my paranoia was all due to: > > - Anything changing my filesystem makes me edgy > - Linux/politics fud, looks like I got bit! > > Best, > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk Putting the finishing touches on ?The future of ZFS? video from BSDCan 2019. Should be up tonight. Will post the link to this email chain. P From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 18:34:12 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Patrick McEvoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:34:12 -0400 Subject: [talk] ZFS FreeBSD future confusion? In-Reply-To: <99203d61-6461-4d5b-8f35-dea2334fd1ca@www.fastmail.com> References: <07df08b1-6aea-4fa0-9453-038f93fb3716@www.fastmail.com> <5eeb0fdf-0d62-47aa-827c-5d9e8a21b7ed@www.fastmail.com> <835c875c-2538-4de0-b9f1-0d31405a758b@www.fastmail.com> <99203d61-6461-4d5b-8f35-dea2334fd1ca@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <5D02CF64.6020007@gmail.com> Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 4:46 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:35 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy >> wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: >>> >>> > Aside from trying to keep up with 40-char tweets, has *anyone* in the >>> > FreeBSD universe written up a clear public statement about the state of >>> > things- and the future plans? >>> > (Like a plain language, coherent, paragraph or two.) >>> >>> Oh- I sortof found the answers I wanted on page 17 in Alan Jude's slide deck: >>> >>> "Fighting the FUD >>> ?This news resulted in some immediate negative gut reactions >>> ?There is only one OpenZFS, we are all in this together >>> ?FreeBSD will get features sooner, be more involved upstream >>> ?Linux uses the SPL (Solaris Porting Layer) to run ZFS code as close to the illumos upstream as possible >>> ?FreeBSD does similar, so using ZoL code will not inject Linux or GPL code into the FreeBSD kernel >>> ?No Linux-KPI shims are used for ZFS code" >>> >>> Sounds rational. I'm still feeling shaky, ZFS on FreeBSD is just *so darned good* right now. >> Basically, ZoL and FreeBSD had Illumos as our upstream. ZoL has added a >> bunch in a way that could be upstreamed, but weren't due to the extreme >> slow pace of Illumos taking changes, as well as viability issues with >> Illumos. FreeBSD is rebasing from Illumos to ZoL because the official >> upstream of OpenZFS is moving from Illumos to ZoL because the efforts >> of adding the missing bits since the fork to ZoL was much smaller than >> vice versa. ZoL is an unfortunate name because it has the trigger word >> Linux in it. The ZoL folks are not the LKM folks, but quite reasonable >> people without the GPL politics getting in the way that caused Linux to >> be such a trigger word. >> >> Warner > > Thanks Warner, very much appreciate this statement- a relief to see an excellent and clearly rational future for ZFS on FreeBSD! > > Looks like my paranoia was all due to: > > - Anything changing my filesystem makes me edgy > - Linux/politics fud, looks like I got bit! > > Best, > .ike > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk Video is processing on YouTube servers as I type this. When it is ready, it will appear at the link below: https://youtu.be/E8kAVmvlBLQ Enjoy, P From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 09:08:18 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 09:08:18 -0400 Subject: [talk] SGI Octane computer - free stuff In-Reply-To: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> References: <577565F6-0455-4F9F-80E5-B9ED23B64676@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19ACB233-B628-4974-BCAF-FC3AAAF9353C@gmail.com> > On Jun 7, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Pat McEvoy wrote: > > If someone this list wants this, I will grab it for you. It can not live at my house however. > Shoot me your address off-list and I will drop off. I might even have a SGI webcam for you. > > > https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/zip/d/carmel-sgi-octane-computer/6906864688.html > > > Patrick McEvoy Quick update. Looks like the first responder to my email is getting the machine. Perhaps we can guilt... I mean encourage them to give a talk on maintaining precious computer bare metal at a future NYC*BUG meeting. Have a good weekend folks. Btw the BSDCan videos will be trickling out as my free time allows. Be well, P > From kmsujit at gmail.com Sat Jun 15 02:31:11 2019 From: kmsujit at gmail.com (Sujit K M) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 12:01:11 +0530 Subject: [talk] Vulnerability Classification and New Concepts Message-ID: Hi All, I am new to security hacking. But I find that Companies, like hardware, publish vulnerabilities their products have. I see them as CVE be it UNIX/Linux or Windows. Are vulnerabilities classification so robust that they are a fixed set, say memory read or xss. I interestingly tried to hack on FreeBSD where we have wheel groups and say someone in a production system gets a user in wheel group. Now as per me the person should be able to run basic applications, also if cloud is where it is deployed. one can trick any user to authenticate to malicious programs. What is the opinion on this? Regards, Sujit K M From twunde at gmail.com Mon Jun 17 11:52:53 2019 From: twunde at gmail.com (Thomas Wunderlich) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:52:53 -0400 Subject: [talk] Vulnerability Classification and New Concepts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sujit, A CVE number just indicates that the vulnerability was registered as a vulnerability to the Standard for Information Security Vulnerability Names maintained by MITRE. It's basically an id that points to a description of the vulnerability. These vulnerabilities aren't generic XSS, etc but are specific to systems so for example XSS in Jenkins or an XSS in mandoc. Descriptions or risks can be edited after the vulnerability is filed. The main point is that there's a common id across security systems so that if you get an advisory from red hat and an advisory from Canonical you can see that they're talking about the same vulnerability even if their fixes are different. As an example, the CVE page for meltdown is https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-5753. The National Vulnerability Database tends to have a bit more information for each CVE: https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2017-5753 Best, Thomas Wunderlich On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 2:31 AM Sujit K M wrote: > Hi All, > > I am new to security hacking. But I find that Companies, like hardware, > publish > vulnerabilities their products have. I see them as CVE be it UNIX/Linux or > Windows. Are vulnerabilities classification so robust that they are a > fixed > set, say memory read or xss. > > I interestingly tried to hack on FreeBSD where we have wheel groups and > say someone in a production system gets a user in wheel group. Now as per > me > the person should be able to run basic applications, also if cloud is > where it is deployed. one can trick any user to authenticate to > malicious programs. > > What is the opinion on this? > > Regards, > Sujit K M > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kieranx451.alt at gmail.com Sun Jun 23 19:04:31 2019 From: kieranx451.alt at gmail.com (Kieran Smyth) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 19:04:31 -0400 Subject: [talk] Remote monitoring hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a very neat problem. Aside from obvious stuff like wake-on-lan and dynamic dns, getting an idea of just how unreliable power is would help I think. Any of your devices SNMP-capable? Is an SNMP system even practical here? On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 7:49 PM Justin Sherrill wrote: > I have some property in Canada that has a cellmodem connection to the net, > a few Nest cameras, and some weather sensors. > > Power is unreliable, the cell link is unreliable, temperatures can be > extreme (mostly cold) and it is physically unreachable once snow hits. I'd > like to set up some sort of small machine that could connect back to my > network in the US and give me a way to diagnose problems, or log something > more than the absence of a link. > > Obviously I would want to use a BSD and in a perfect world x86_64 so it > could be DragonFly. Has anyone set up similar remote points and can point > to what hardware and software they found useful? > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justin at shiningsilence.com Sun Jun 23 19:21:14 2019 From: justin at shiningsilence.com (Justin Sherrill) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 19:21:14 -0400 Subject: [talk] Remote monitoring hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dunno... a few seconds of Google searching doesn't turn up any actual Nest/SNMP info, and the weather station is an Acu-Rite, I think, and same problem. I feel sort of guilty for having these devices now, like I bought a car and was surprised it didn't have seatbelts installed. On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 7:04 PM Kieran Smyth wrote: > > This is a very neat problem. Aside from obvious stuff like wake-on-lan and dynamic dns, getting an idea of just how unreliable power is would help I think. > > Any of your devices SNMP-capable? Is an SNMP system even practical here? > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 7:49 PM Justin Sherrill wrote: >> >> I have some property in Canada that has a cellmodem connection to the net, a few Nest cameras, and some weather sensors. >> >> Power is unreliable, the cell link is unreliable, temperatures can be extreme (mostly cold) and it is physically unreachable once snow hits. I'd like to set up some sort of small machine that could connect back to my network in the US and give me a way to diagnose problems, or log something more than the absence of a link. >> >> Obviously I would want to use a BSD and in a perfect world x86_64 so it could be DragonFly. Has anyone set up similar remote points and can point to what hardware and software they found useful? >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk at lists.nycbug.org >> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk From christos at zoulas.com Sun Jun 23 19:36:55 2019 From: christos at zoulas.com (Christos Zoulas) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 19:36:55 -0400 Subject: [talk] Remote monitoring hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://openweave.io/ ? christos > On Jun 23, 2019, at 7:21 PM, Justin Sherrill wrote: > > I dunno... a few seconds of Google searching doesn't turn up any > actual Nest/SNMP info, and the weather station is an Acu-Rite, I > think, and same problem. I feel sort of guilty for having these > devices now, like I bought a car and was surprised it didn't have > seatbelts installed. > > On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 7:04 PM Kieran Smyth wrote: >> >> This is a very neat problem. Aside from obvious stuff like wake-on-lan and dynamic dns, getting an idea of just how unreliable power is would help I think. >> >> Any of your devices SNMP-capable? Is an SNMP system even practical here? >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 7:49 PM Justin Sherrill wrote: >>> >>> I have some property in Canada that has a cellmodem connection to the net, a few Nest cameras, and some weather sensors. >>> >>> Power is unreliable, the cell link is unreliable, temperatures can be extreme (mostly cold) and it is physically unreachable once snow hits. I'd like to set up some sort of small machine that could connect back to my network in the US and give me a way to diagnose problems, or log something more than the absence of a link. >>> >>> Obviously I would want to use a BSD and in a perfect world x86_64 so it could be DragonFly. Has anyone set up similar remote points and can point to what hardware and software they found useful? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk mailing list >>> talk at lists.nycbug.org >>> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at netgate.com Mon Jun 24 13:10:21 2019 From: jim at netgate.com (Jim Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:10:21 -0500 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project Message-ID: .ike said: > In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=FreeBSD-Glen-Joins-Netgate To be clear, Glen is still doing the same things for FreeBSD, just with a different employer. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2019-June/091290.html Jim From nonesuch at longcount.org Mon Jun 24 18:15:27 2019 From: nonesuch at longcount.org (Mark Saad) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 18:15:27 -0400 Subject: [talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AD33348-6370-4582-9208-5BDDC5AE11FB@longcount.org> > On Jun 24, 2019, at 1:10 PM, Jim Thompson wrote: > > > .ike said: > >> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project? (Aside from the obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :) > > https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=FreeBSD-Glen-Joins-Netgate > > To be clear, Glen is still doing the same things for FreeBSD, just with a different employer. > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2019-June/091290.html > > Jim > Jim should we expect a new cut if tnsr running 12 or 13 ? --- Mark Saad | nonesuch at longcount.org > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk at lists.nycbug.org > http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk From mcevoy.pat at gmail.com Sun Jun 30 14:24:13 2019 From: mcevoy.pat at gmail.com (Pat McEvoy) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 14:24:13 -0400 Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Aug Message-ID: <1CFEEE49-C4EC-486B-8BB7-95FE8B2AE4B0@gmail.com> Hey Folks, Does anyone have a talk they would like to give or a lead on a potential speakers / subjects for August 2019 and beyond? Be well, P From ipsens at ripsbusker.no.eu.org Sun Jun 30 15:02:42 2019 From: ipsens at ripsbusker.no.eu.org (Ipsen S Ripsbusker) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:02:42 +0000 Subject: [talk] NYC*BUG Aug In-Reply-To: <1CFEEE49-C4EC-486B-8BB7-95FE8B2AE4B0@gmail.com> References: <1CFEEE49-C4EC-486B-8BB7-95FE8B2AE4B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <352b9e1c-0ca5-4418-b040-99bad3f2537b@www.fastmail.com> I am happy to present on portable video production. I select my video production software based on free licensing, portability, ease of installation, compatibility with OpenBSD, usability, and whether it accomplishes whatever I want to do. I consequently produce videos on OpenBSD with vim, make, ffmpeg, mkvmerge, mpv, sox, Glottolog, aucat, bc, fossil, borgbackup, R, Python, ImageMagick, files, and custom Unix-style utilities. My competence with such portable video editing software has come in handy when I have needed to use GNU/Linux and Windows. I will touch on many parts of my video production process, including planning, recording, editing video streams, editing audio streams, composition of subtitles, translation of subtitles, encoding, publishing, and version control.