[talk] FreeBSD Governance, Foundation/Project

[Sujit K M]

On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 5:44 PM Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thursday, June 13, 2019, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM Edward Capriolo <edlinuxguru at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 6:16 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:45 PM Isaac (.ike) Levy <
>>>> ike at blackskyresearch.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just finished listening to a very long video, still digesting it
>>>>> all:
>>>>>
>>>>> "AsiaBSDCon 2019 DevSummit: We don't see a problem. Suggestion of
>>>>> Project Governance additions."
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4MetxUV4N0
>>>>>
>>>>> These are the slides from the presentation,
>>>>>
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nu9WVp3-QgkDCQCT8eTAlyYLulADyflzCzmZ3-iX-V0/edit#slide=id.g54d9b68929_21_5
>>>>>
>>>>> Attendees in the audience can be identified here:
>>>>> https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201903#Short_Talks
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Summary: Michael Dexter is presenting on a number of issues and
>>>>> challenges he sees facing the FreeBSD Project, which directly relate to
>>>>> influence from the FreeBSD Foundation.  It's a tough but constructive
>>>>> conversation, whereby MD is raising a number of important issues which I
>>>>> believe are near and dear to many of us around NYC*BUG.
>>>>>
>>>>> For almost every point, MD touches on something which has affected my
>>>>> life around the FreeBSD project, (personally and professionally).  MD tries
>>>>> hard not to posit all the solutions, but instead sparks a really long and
>>>>> valuable discussion among FreeBSD devs, core, and Foundation folks.  The
>>>>> talk isn't directly about code per-se, (but in the end, the issues are
>>>>> deeply technical.)
>>>>>
>>>>> With the stiff opposition in the room, and the patience, directness,
>>>>> and openness MD exhibits in his presentation, I feel he deserves a
>>>>> commendation from the community for raising these issues- and that this
>>>>> presentation should perhaps be required viewing for any new Core/Foundation
>>>>> FreeBSD folks.  Criticism and introspection is always difficult for
>>>>> projects we all care so deeply about, but critical to growth and survival.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> For those who have watched this, (or plan to, or were in the rooom),
>>>>> I'd love to openly hear people's thoughts on topics raised?
>>>>>
>>>>> In the years since the FreeBSD Foundation emerged, what have been it's
>>>>> biggest success and failures for the FreEBSD project?  (Aside from the
>>>>> obvious success of paying Glen Barber to stabilize RELENG :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Do other people see value in MD's points, and even better yet, do
>>>>> people have constructive ideas toward remediation for any of these issues?
>>>>> Any constructive/actionable asks of the Project or the Foundation?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's hard to know what MD's points were as they were shrouded in so
>>>> much passive-agressive toxicity, half-truths and outright lies.
>>>>
>>>> This was a horrible presentation that was painful to sit through
>>>> because he belabored so many points, committed so many logical fallacies
>>>> (FreeBSD core and FreeBSD foundation are two entirely different things,
>>>> despite having the word FreeBSD in them, for example). In addition, a
>>>> number of his points were just wrong (yes, you can impeach core, for
>>>> example). It was poorly researched, poorly organized and poorly presented.
>>>> I had dozens of private messages from other people in the room commenting
>>>> on just how painful it was to sit through in person.
>>>>
>>>> But then again, I'm the guy doing the table flipping on the phone
>>>> because he was telling bald-faced lies about  me and when I tried to
>>>> correct the context, he persisted in those lies.
>>>>
>>>> Warner
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing list
>>>> talk at lists.nycbug.org
>>>> http://lists.nycbug.org:8080/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just a note: The presentation references this code here:
>>>
>>> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D19016
>>>
>>> Random observation.
>>>
>>> "here's no way that nstr won't be terminated in the first 80 characters
>>> because the snprintf 3 lines above guarantees it. so strnlen() is kinda
>>> useless here."
>>>
>>
>> This I said. It's fair criticism that it's not my most articulate work.
>> However, one uses strnlen when one has a potentially unbounded string.
>> snprintf ensures the strings are bounded, so strnlen was actually useless
>> there. I should have state that more directly.
>>
>>
>>> Why not write a unit test? I think this has a way of engaging people
>>> more, instead of saying "it is cosmetic" or "dont worry i got this". It
>>> says, "I have considered these scenarios. Please  provide some other ones
>>> if you want to discuss a different imp."
>>>
>>
>> I said none of those things. And you are quoting them out of context (the
>> first is a paraphrase of something araujo said, the second wasn't said in
>> the review). In addition, a test case here would just be asking the
>> contributor to do work I knew couldn't possibly be done. Asking for a test
>> case for a change that static analysis says is useless seems counter
>> productive. Providing feedback that a change is incorrect is what the
>> review process is all about.
>>
>> But what does that have to do with project governance? Sure, I can see
>> that it's a criticism of how we try to recruit and retain people, but even
>> then it's a bad example of that. It's as relevant to the stated goals of
>> this talk as this spelling examples. At least the impeachment example was
>> on topic, even if it was so poorly researched as to get corrected
>> immediately after being put up by those in the room. So what action plan
>> came out of the discussion? Or was it just a bitch session designed to
>> stoke anger w/o presenting any actionable suggestions?
>>
>> Warner
>>
>
> Its governance to say. No code without tests. No code without peer review.
> No self merges.
>
> The later 2 things force you to get more buy in.
>

Then why do you think that there are bugs.

>
>
> --
> Sorry this was sent from mobile. Will do less grammar and spell check than
> usual.
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