<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">You are stuck with List/ArrayList/Concurrent Access Violations beneath this.</span><br><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">List vs ArrayList should not matter. If the developer uses the generic type it should imply to the reader that the specific type does not matter. ArrayList vs Vector. Any implementation should work the same way..***</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Concurrent Access Violations</span><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Now this is interesting. I feel as if we were talking recently on list as to does some resolv.conf type library in mac or BSD is/was thread safe. I do agree that thread safety is probably the largest case of "implied" across the board. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Now here be the dragons. Threading bugs are very subtle, you have to assume the user understand happens-before, happens-after, atomicity, readers see writes, keywords like volatile. This is one of the harder bits to document. If the user does not know the memory model of the application the programmer would have to document it everywhere which would be annoying. . IE if you are doing servlet programming you should know that there are multiple threads executing on the same class so using class variables in the request scope is wrong. You should not have to mark every class variable as //DONT USE IN REQUEST SCOPE.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">I am no python guru but I assume these same issues exist. You *the user of the documentation* have to know if this is a copy-on-write list etc. Just because changing it will never throw ConcurrentModifiicationException does not mean your code is safe/better. Arguably it could be worse, like a user is modifying a list another component assumes is a fixed size. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">I actually ask what a ConcurrentModificationException is on interviews. This shows if the developer has ever done any meaningful concurrent programming. Also there is no one correct answer. The simple answer is use a synchronized list, but that is the most performance heavy, maybe a mutex or a shared lock is the right answer, but maybe a concurrent list is the answer, but that means if can change as you are iterating it, what does that mean for downstream code?</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br><br></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 5:16 AM, Sujit K M <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kmsujit@gmail.com" target="_blank">kmsujit@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Including both mails. I don't know whether it permits email courtesy. But I wanted to reply to both your mails.</div><div><br></div><div>My general conclusion is the way you look at it. I am someone very new to python < 1 year. I am much more</div><div>of a Java Guy. But my conclusion is, every resource has its own utility, you can write test cases for your data</div><div>and more importantly code your tests, there is the un-chartered water. I feel a test case is the most important.</div><div>But coding your test cases is not the way but write code using test cases is what I have been taught with.</div><div><br></div>On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Edward Capriolo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:edlinuxguru@gmail.com" target="_blank">edlinuxguru@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">It is not the fault of the language the lacking of documentation, it is a lacking of the developers that use it. Java has (and has had since the beginning) an inbuilt system called java-doc which generates markup in comments into documentation.<div><br></div><div><a href="https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/javadocs/api-2.6/org/apache/commons/lang/StringUtils.html" target="_blank">https://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/javadocs/api-2.6/org/apache/commons/lang/StringUtils.html</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Again something worthless of document. I have found StringUtils to be most commonly implemented framework in any</div><div>product. Also Just blindly saying this is the reason this field is there or values it can take is certainly not acceptable</div><div>to anyone. One looking at the Java doc should be able to get the crux of the matter, I should be able to write a test case</div><div>with it. and also agree most people don't read the entire api and also there is a lot of illiteracy among developers.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I have some interesting prospective on documentation:<br><br>1) Documentation in code is almost impossible to keep accurate. In many cases most things you two to document internally like "clear box" documentation, hurts readability and is so difficult to keep in sync with actual code.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would like to know when there is tester, a documentation person there why cannot they look at what is being pushed</div><div>out to a large set of people some naive, some professional, some unethical. Is it not a part of their duty. I for instance</div><div>have not seen any change in Generics that were introduced in Java 1.3 till now and also there are a lot of deprecated</div><div>classes methods etc which are used by people. Infact there is way remove compiler warnings for deprecated such. </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>2) Who is the documentation for. Inside a method to authenticate with oauth, what do you document the entire oauth protocol? What the application is supposed to do? </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is what I exactly want. I have seen tonnes of oauth classes in Java, How many give a error code description for example or a future</div><div>processing message, say your email is locked for example. These are not yet developed simply because there is no initiative from the</div><div>so called guru's of the language. I have worked on products that do this exactly written in Java.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>3) People don't read anyway. I have written 2 books on Cassandra and Hive. At my work we use both. In addition to the books I have ALSO field out our internal wiki with site specific information.<br><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That is pathetic.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br>Do you really read docs? If people did, STACKOVERFLOW would not be a run away success! No one reads anything they just want the star trek computer / google to answer any question they dont know instantly, and they dont want to have to care about how anything works.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div> </div><div>Very sad for these people living by the sword is what I call this.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Edward Capriolo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:edlinuxguru@gmail.com" target="_blank">edlinuxguru@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Also what you think is "readable" also is mostly about what you are familiar with. Many people claim lisp like languages are very readable because there is only "one form". However I find it difficult to grok code-as-data.<div><br></div><div>As it relates to the present conversation, I find languages with no explicit types confusing. </div><div><div><br></div><div>Take this:</div><div>def delete(mylist, item):<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I find it better since I don't have to know mylist implementation</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><br>VS.<br><br>void delete(List<Integer> item, Integer item)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You are stuck with List/ArrayList/Concurrent Access Violations beneath this.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Mostly because in larger code bases if there is no direct test calling the method it may be hard to understand exactly what types the arguments are. </div><div><br></div><div>You could argue that Clojure has a nice solution here. They allow type</div><div>less coding, however typing can be applied as an optimization. Clojure also makes documentation a 1st class citizen by making documentation part of the language rather than some afterthought like text inside /* */ that may or may not follow a specific format.</div><div><br></div><div>I generally hate reading other peoples code and doing code reviews. Provide me clear interfaces and unit tests, I dont want to go over code like a CP 1 teacher.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br>Once someone deployed something that I code reviewed. It crashed and burned, and when I got there case about it they said, "Well you reviewed it!"<br>Like somehow me looking at something for 1 hour that took someone else 1 week to write was going to find the hidden bugs. I told him, I'm not going to review any more, I'm not your crutch. You are just going to have that won't fail.You are going to have to write unit tests or do manual testing to find edge cases. If i spend all day review code and finding other peoples bugs I wont have time for my work.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree with you. But as it Turns out I Do this quite a lot, because some one else wants it. I just posted to mailing list to know what is the reason, I find reviewing Python Easy.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Sujit K M <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kmsujit@gmail.com" target="_blank">kmsujit@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>I agree with whole of the comments except for the one below. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
when you tackle a task, like java, there's just a ton of libraries
that you can leverage off of...</div></blockquote><div> </div><div>You would find tonnes of packages in Python too. But Java for instance, In my job, Where I deal</div><div>with services, I find people to be suffering from an IN/OUT Syndrome where in all the work they</div><div>carry out is to map an input/configurations/database/configurations/partial output and repeat.</div><div>This according to me is bad.</div><div><br></div><div>The other thing I find difficult with Java is that these tonnes of libraries, have documentation which</div><div>is not worth a penny or useful. I mean does Apache for instance provide performance issues as a</div><div>part of documentation. I find testers who also should have a part in documentation, not doing this.</div><div>Un-Chartered waters I guess.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 4/17/2016 10:07 AM, A. Jesse Jiryu
Davis wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I agree — Python is designed with the philosophy
that "readability counts" and it is successful at that. Python
code is some of the most readable of any programming language.
The language also has disadvantages, of course, but its clarity
is unsurpassed.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Sujit
K M <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kmsujit@gmail.com" target="_blank">kmsujit@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I found python projects to be very good from an code
review perspective.</div>
<div>What I found is Python Language makes it simple to
without an IDE simpler</div>
<div>code to review. I find Java Projects to be the most
difficult to do code review.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What is the general view on this? Or is it one of my
hallucinations?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Sujit K M</div>
</div>
<br>
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