[nycbug-talk] thoughts, issues, and ideas.

[G. Rosamond]

On Jan 24, 2005, at 10:06 AM, steve wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> hope you had a safe commute, and a safe weekend. this weekend i 
> thought allot about how to compose this email, and have yet to find a 
> proper way to state whats on my mind. so please bear with me, and hear 
> me out.

I'm all ears. . .

>
>
> Last week i posted a question to this group regarding my configuration 
> of php. i got a few great responses, and recommendations. i also 
> posted  another question this past weekend about the question of 
> stability of the apache 2 release, again i got some great responses. 
> but i have some issues with this group that i would like to clarify, 
> and that in my opinion can make this group better as a world respected 
> tech resource, (if thats what we want).

Of course we want that. . .

>
>
> i belong to various mailing lists, including but not limited to 
> postfix, rt, apache, sunmanagers, nylug, and of course this one. from 
> a technical prospective, sunmanagers is one of the worlds most 
> respected mailing lists out there. postfix is pretty much up there 
> too. the reason these two lists have such a highly respected view (and 
> not only to me) is because they discuss technical issues related to 
> the mailing list. on the sunmanagers list, if i were to post a 
> question on how to set up apache on freebsd, i would be told that we 
> do not answer such questions here, but i will get one and only one 
> such email from the list moderator. on the other hand if i were to ask 
> a question regarding anything that incorporates solaris Os, or Sun 
> hardware, i would get the authorative answer from somebody on that 
> list.
>
> last week somebody on the postfix-users mailing list posted the 
> following question
> "Hi everybody!!!!!!
> I need help to compile postfix under OpenBSD with SASL and MYSQL 
> support.  Is anybody can help me???????"
>
> the first answer that came through was as follows
>
> "cd /usr/ports/mail/postfix/stable && env FLAVOR="sasl2 mysql" make 
> install clean
>
> That'll install 2.1.5 with MySQL and SASL support."
>
> which is the perfect (in my opinion) answer to the question. nobody 
> responded with google for postfix on openbsd, nor with 
> www.openbsd.org. the question was a technical one and the answers were 
> the same.

I'd tend to agree with you. . . too often "RTFM" implies to me the RTFM 
poster doesn't know the answer.

>
>
> another list i belong to is the nylug, which in my opinion (and i hope 
> i do not infuriate anybody here) is more of a meeting place for people 
> that like, know about, admin, or otherwise are involved with linux in 
> general. it is not a place that i would go to for in-depth technical 
> questions, which is a shame, because there are some great minds there.

I'd agree with you there. . .

>
>
> and now i come to this list. the nycbug general list. on the homepage 
> of the nycbug there is not charter of organization, the closest i 
> could find to a charter is the following "This is like-minded people 
> getting together under a single interest." which to me means that 
> nycbug is a group of people that as the nylug group are involved with 
> the bsd variants in some way or another, and that this mailing list is 
> more for discussions and is

In the broadest sense, this is true.

> very open. which is fine with me (but who cares). and when i do try to 
> bring up a technical question the responses are negligible, for the 
> php question i think i got 4 responses and one was that i should asks 
> the folks over at nyphp group. when i asked the apache question i also 
> got 5 responses, yet only two answered my question. the other three, 
> one told me to go elsewhere because they might better answer my 
> question, the next one told me that openbsd froze their apache at 
> 1.3.29 for license reasons. all i wanted was to start a discussion 
> that would involve the members of this group, and i was looking for 
> personal opinions, you the people of this group are technically 
> astute, and most if not all have apache running in some form, why cant 
> we just have a technical discussion where we point out what worked for 
> us and what we recommend. i can (just as well as you) read all about 
> apache on various pages, but the thing that makes this field, (meaning 
> unix, bsd, and linux) different is that we share what we learned the 
> hard way with one another.

It's often the question that is more important than the answer.  I 
thought the answers provided to your question were appropriate.  It 
sounds like you were really asking for something else.  When people 
were directing you to New York PHP, I think it has more to do with the 
heavier expertise there, as they are the group we are most intertwined 
with.  It's not a blow-off response.  They are a serious group, and if 
we all encouraged cross-posting, I'm sure a lot of posts would be on 
both lists.  Hans, Jeff, Chris S., MW. . . there's many in both places.

The NYCBUG talk list tends to fluctuate in traffic and quality of 
answers.  We have had brilliant and insightful discussions, we have 
also had lackluster ones.  But such is the reality of a mailing list.  
I am also aware that many of us (including me), are incredibly busy 
right now, working seven days a week with time only to browse the list 
for things directly relevant to me at the moment.  For many of us 
independents, this is common in January, September. . . unlike, say, 
August.

>
>
>  i would like to propose that we create a separate mailing list called 
> bsdmanagers, and take the rules that are applied to the other purely 
> technical mailing lists, namely only technically bsd related question 
> are allowed. and if

I'd argue strongly against another mailing list.  We don't have the 
traffic at this point to create a separate technical mailing list.  You 
can solve the question of weak responses on certain questions with a 
new mailing list.

> i ask a question about my php on bsd, i wont get told to go to a 
> different group to ask that question. i would like to see the nycbug 
> lists become world renowned for technical questions and answers for 
> anything that involves the bsd world. and if you dont know or dont 
> want ot answer then dont.

BTW, if you notice New York PHP is an AMP group, not LAMP, since most 
prefer BSD.  I don't think anyone is against increasing the technical 
weight of the talk list.  But there's no simple organizational solution 
IMO.

>
>
> for those of you that read this all the way i thank you, and hope that 
> i did not piss anybody off. i do not have anything against the nylug, 
> or any other group out there. and yes i had a coffee today already, 
> and slept pretty well last night, so this is not just a rant, it is a 
> thought out and intentional email. i do not know if i have the right 
> to do this but i am proposing that the membership votes on whether we 
> can create a managers/technical mailing list.

I don't think you pissed anyone off.  But I think I've made clear the 
case against another mailing list.

>
>
>
> PS. for those of you that want to respond to me please do so, there is 
> no reason to rant to the whole list if you take offence to anything i 
> said.

This should be a general talk discussion.  But there are no quick fixes 
to this like creating another list.

>
> Thank you once again for your time,
>
>
> Steve Rieger

g