[nycbug-talk] Fw: Extreme mobile BSD

Miles Nordin carton at Ivy.NET
Fri Dec 21 22:31:25 EST 2007

>>>>> "tl" == =?utf-8?B?VHJpc2ggTHluY2g=?=  <utf-8> writes:

    tl> you use offensive, bitter, nasty language

well yeah. I'm offended, bitter and nasty.  Why?  because this list
for me is mostly about use of BSD, a free software platform, and I see
software freedom disappearing, and along with it my opportunity to use
the platform- and application-level tools that go along with BSD (like

    tl> and insult others for their success with somethinjg,

T-Mobile and Apple and RIM all succeeded big-time with closed devices.
You're right that I'm not happy that they succeeded so well, because
it's been to the exclusion of tools more in the spirit of BSD, like
jabber, ytalk, and ipsec-tools racoon.  However, T-Mobile/Danger, RIM,
and Apple are not people.  I don't think you need to defend
corporations from being ``insulted.''  I don't think they even qualify
as ``others.''

Can we see a difference between Miles Nordin and T-Mobile?

My complaint is that Miles can't goof around with free, open tools as
well as he used to because RIM, T-Mobile and Apple have lured his
friends (who also like to goof around with free, open tools) onto
closed platforms, and thus maybe Miles and said friends would benefit
from some introspection.  Said friends haven't ``succeeded'', only
Apple, RIM, and T-Mobile.

    tl> use of a different tool than you.

I'm pointing out the other tools are un-BSDish.  That's their relevant
characteristic, and it's on topic, while you make it sound like open
tools are some whimsical personal choice of mine.  They're not, not on
this list.

    tl> we can write a J2ME app that runs on our Blackberries or
    tl> iPhones or Treos.

You can't do that, though, as I understand it.  That'd be great.  I'd
be excited and happy about that.  But I don't think it's
possible---your app has to be blessed by RIM or Apple/Cingular.  Maybe
it is possible with Treo, if you'll write to WinCE?  but even there
the carrier will reserve all the ``push'' features for themselves, the
ones you need to make anything cool like ringing email, instant
messaging that actually works, presence with geolocation, u.s.w.

I do have experience with this---I bought a Nextel phone with J2ME in
it years ago when they were really fancy and expensive.  I didn't
understand from their pre-sales tech support they'd locked the phone
down so severely you cold only get apps onto it using a ``Developer's
Cable'' and a secret code tied to your IMEI which you had to request
from them.  You cannot share your own app with your friends.  Your
friend has to request his own secret code and buy his own developer's
cable, and install the whole IDE on his PeeCee.  Meanwhile you can
download as many blessed J2ME apps as you want over-the-air.  If
developer codes start flying off the shelves too quickly, they can
just alter the terms of the deal.  The platform was not open, as far
as the 700MHz rules go.  It was also annoying my $55/mo unlimited data
didn't cover use of data from J2ME apps---you had to pay another
$40/mo for that, as a separate service, so the network wasn't open
either.  And I think it is still behind a NAT that kills connections
quickly, so only carrier-proxied apps can use ``push.''  After
untangling this mess I resolved to keep out of it until someone else
reported success by writing some app that a bunch of people installed
on unhacked phones.

In any case, I'd be interested in your experience targeting J2ME apps
to these platforms, if you have any.  We weren't discussing writing
your own apps before you flamed me, though.  We were just discussing
the out-of-the-box closed devices (and one Alex mentioned that sounded

    tl> Are you one of those that wants everything regulated to be
    tl> "fair"

sounds kind of political and Ayn Rand-y.  I think I'd better stick to
specifics, because abstract politics will turn into an OT flamewar.
FWIW, yes, I'm happy about the 700MHz auctioning rules, and bet it'll
make all the difference for Linux or BSD-based open phones.

    tl> did you fail at something? Fail really bad?

    tl> the world owes you something 

    tl> because youu've been beaten by it every time?

    tl> Grow up Miles,

    tl> Either way, you come off as a child throwing a temper tantrum,
    tl> not someone with an intelligent argument.

    tl> rants that make you sound like you need counseling.

There's definitely something weird going on, because I'm more than
once getting what I regard as over-the-top grossly inappropriate
flames from people, _who themselves accuse me of being off-topic_.
It's so extreme I don't feel like I have to respond, but still...

I guess I'm happy to be making people a little enthusiastic, but
obviously I'd rather it weren't in exactly this way.  I really need to
be able to state an unpopular, on-topic view without being attacked as
above, though.  What the hell was that?  At absolute worst, I
(_without_ even calling you out personally!) insulted your _choice of
celfone_.  This is crazy retaliation, so knock-it-off-plz, sorry did
not mean to insult you personally so much as suggest we might resist
Apple, T-Mobile, RIM a little better, no apology necessary.
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