[nycbug-talk] For and Against IPv6

[Alex Pilosov]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Isaac Levy wrote:

> >> Not surprisingly, the sales guy didn't know anything about IPv6
> >> addressing, and I explained the rammifications of these points:
> >>
> >> 1) IPv4 gives us 4billion+ addresses, vs. IPv6 and 32Undecillion+
> >> addresses
> > who cares as long as you can get ips
> 
> My current DSL isp charges me $5/mo for each IP now, new policy in the
> last year.
it's pure profit, you understand that, right? arin charges like 1000$/year 
for /20. 

> > ipv6 is going to be a nightmare once it is actually deployed. i don't
> > know what gene was saying, but from operator's perspective, it isn't
> > necessarily true.
> 
> Um, wasn't there anyone screaming when IPv4 replaced the other
> networking protocols of the day?  (which supported something like a
> paltry 255 hosts across some networks?!) /me digs in the history books
> for some info...
ipv4 had 'flag day'. when the old protocol was disconnected and everything
was switched over to ip. clearly, the interwebs was smaller then. [just a 
history lesson]

> >> 3) The rest of the developed (and much of the underdeveloped)  world
> >> is deploying it for production use, only Univ./Govt. are horsing
> >> around with it in the US...
> > not really no, nobody cares, except for japs.
> 
> What about Russia, Alex?  I guess they have plenty of IP's.
Until RIRs say "we cannot give you any more IPs", there's no problem at 
all. Everyone can get IPs today. Thus, nobody feels the pain.

> Have you or your customers done any business with Taiwan or China
> recently?  My people have...
What's that have to do with anything? are you saying that people in taiwan 
have v6-only connectivity and unable to communicate to v4 sites? [for the 
record, i do believe there are some providers who give by default both v4 
and v6 ips. i don't know any provider in any country who'd give v6 only ip 
and 6to4 for the v4 access].

> Respectfully questioning your experiences behind this logic: Seriously,
> without meaning to sound contentious- how much time do you spend using
> the IPv6 internet to know all of this?  I comprehend your serious
> expertise and knowledge regarding the IP networking, and I always
> appreciate your low-level knowledge of networks as you contribute to the
> list- but seriously- how do you know so much about who uses the IPv6
> net?  (How much do you know about what people *do* with your own
> networks?)
i'm active in the nanog community (which is the network operator community 
- people who actually run the large networks, like l3, vzb, etc), and 
moderate the mailing list (yeah i know, alex as a moderator). v6 has been 
a staple of conversations for past 6 years. yet, it remains in sort of r&d 
phase - you can't buy v6 native transit from anyone. the best you can do 
is v6 tunnels. fun thing is asking the v6 presenters at the conference 
'so, can you sell me v6 transit' and getting giggles from them.

> My case:
> After getting involved with various international business situations  
> this year, I recognize that organizations I work with would benefit  
> from IPv6 connectivity.  I now have a business case behind my need,  
> and I don't necessarily care if you understand that, or believe that  
> it's 'valid'.
show me the benefit. show the business need. you say you want 65k IPs - 
what for? 

<snip>

> > we'll sell ipv6 (native) once someone wants it. put a business case
> > forward, you'll get transit in a week.
> 
> Really?  Do you mean you'll stitch something together quickly for me, or
> it'll be a real, usable, production-grade line?
there *is no production-grade v6*. at best, think internet in late 80s -
stuff that engineers tinker with, which goes down every so often. no large
carriers have v6 native ports to customers. NONE. Not one. On backbone, I
think there's *maybe* one that have v6-native-capable backbone - everyone
else has "overlay" network or tunnels. There are two that will actually
sell you the "v6 tunnels" to their tunnel servers (one per city). Everyone
else simply doesn't care. there's only a limited amount of peering (for 
example, as opposed to full mesh for tier1s, there are maybe a couple of 
peering relationships, not in all geographic regions etc - resulting in 
your packets likely traveling halfway across the country multiple times).

since big boys dont care, it is engineering-heavy providers that try to 
make something sort of work. he is doing their piece. occaid is providing 
"ghetto backbone" for ipv6-enabled customers. but it is really tunnels 
over v6 network which are held together by spit and glue, running over PC 
routers...

i'm just telling you 'how it really works'.

> Based on your attitude about IPv6, on list over the months, I'm not
> certain that I'd want to trust this line...
v6 is not production ready. 
> 
> >
> >> My ISP sales guy, however knowledgeable, is not very technical- but
> >> he's a manager (read: decision maker)- and to my delight, he was
> >> excited to get this request from me...
> >>
> >> What other info can I give to this Non-Technical ISP rep, (or any ISP
> >> sales rep), to help build a business case in his organization, so  
> >> we can
> >> buy real IPv6 lines in NYC sooner than later?!
> > put a business case forward. say "there is an active demand for v6,  
> > if you
> > offer v6 transit you'll instantly sell 500 T1s and 10000 dsl lines".
> > except, of course, its not true.
> 
> How do you know that nobody will buy it?  Your market research?  
> (again, not meaning to sound contentious- you DO know a hell of a lot
> about the data/ISP biz' in NYC)  However, I don't see Pilosoft listed
> when I search for 'IPv6 isp nyc':
i don't see anyone listed. nobody cares, apparently.

<snip>

> Hrm.  Is this because you don't provide IPv6 connectivity, and don't
> really want to?
we can. for us, its not so much of a big deal - our equipment supports it, 
and we can probably interconnect with occaid for v6 "backbone", and I 
think one of our transits might do v6 as well. so the expensive is X hours 
of engineering to make sure everything works as well as training my noc 
guys to know what v6 is (this is much harder than engineering).

-alex